Why does christianity dictate that repent and sins are gone?

[AussieFanKurt]

I am watching a film called Into The Abyss which is a doco about two blokes on death row.

One of them says he has repented for his sins and he's going to heaven. What I don't understand is that christianity forgives anything you've done if you repent before death.... can anyone explain to me why this religion makes it so if a person who murders multiple people (or whatever) but repents its fine.. but if you are not religious you will go to hell even if you're a good person

[TDMVPDPOY]

I am watching a film called Into The Abyss which is a doco about two blokes on death row.

One of them says he has repented for his sins and he's going to heaven. What I don't understand is that christianity forgives anything you've done if you repent before death.... can anyone explain to me why this religion makes it so if a person who murders multiple people (or whatever) but repents its fine.. but if you are not religious you will go to hell even if you're a good person

didnt ur hero football club repented for the sexual assault cases against highschool girls??...lol clown rapists supporter

[boutons_deux]

Used to be a revenue stream for the Catholic hierarchy. Give money to buy forgiveness, repentance.

Christians can't allow you to keep on going without humiliating, prostrating yourself in repentance before the holy men. It's a power game.

"if you are not religious you will go to hell"

That's recruiting (donors) by scare-mongering. You're either with them or against them. Pure scare-mongering, money-driven politics. And you gotta kill the other Religions because they are a threat, and alternative world view, that challenges your Supreme, One-and-Only Religion's world view.

God will send you to hell suffer, burn, cry, for all eternity, ... BUT! ... He loves you!

The Greatest Bullshit Story Ever Told. Ho lee Bullshit!

--George Carlin

[AussieFanKurt]

didnt ur hero football club repented for the sexual assault cases against highschool girls??...lol clown rapists supporter

son you need to get the story right and learn to construct a sentence while you're at it

[2centsworth]

The Theology is that there is no such thing as a good "enough" person for Heaven. Hence, everyone has sinned and in need of forgiveness. Punishment for our sins is eternal punishment, but Jesus took the punishment upon himself so for anyone who "truly" repents and accepts Jesus will not have to pay for their sins.

That's the faith in a nutshell.

[Latarian Milton]

religion wants people to learn that it's never too late to expiate what they've done wrong. "non-religious people will go to hell even if they're good persons" is a lie, religion uses such bullshits to brainwash its adherents. if you don't believe it, it'll never apply to you whatever the bible says imho

[Blake]

Used to be a revenue stream for the Catholic hierarchy. Give money to buy forgiveness, repentance.

Christians can't allow you to keep on going without humiliating, prostrating yourself in repentance before the holy men. It's a power game.

"if you are not religious you will go to hell"

That's recruiting (donors) by scare-mongering. You're either with them or against them. Pure scare-mongering, money-driven politics. And you gotta kill the other Religions because they are a threat, and alternative world view, that challenges your Supreme, One-and-Only Religion's world view.

God will send you to hell suffer, burn, cry, for all eternity, ... BUT! ... He loves you!

The Greatest Bullshit Story Ever Told. Ho lee Bullshit!

--George Carlin

Yeah, it's basically about money.

no reason for the fucked and unfuckable to drop money in the plate unless they had a shot at forgiveness.

[TeyshaBlue]

The Catholic church monetized forgiveness. The rest of them, not so much.

[Blake]

The Theology is that there is no such thing as a good "enough" person for Heaven. Hence, everyone has sinned and in need of forgiveness. Punishment for our sins is eternal punishment, but Jesus took the punishment upon himself so for anyone who "truly" repents and accepts Jesus will not have to pay for their sins.

That's the faith in a nutshell.

a forgiving, merciful God that doles out eternal punishment.

What paradox?

[2centsworth]

a forgiving, merciful God that doles out eternal punishment.

What paradox?

The mercy is that he paid the price for all of us. You have to do nothing except accept humble yourself and realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus as Lord. That's my belief, but you are totally free to believe something else. At the end of the day you may be right, but I personally believe otherwise.

[Blake]

The Catholic church monetized forgiveness. The rest of them, not so much.

Not directly, but I don't know one church that doesn't mention your duty to tithe.

[TeyshaBlue]

Tithing is not connected to forgiveness. It's a duty that supports the church's outreach programs among other initiatives and costs. So no, you really cant tie that to forgiveness even remotely.

[Blake]

The mercy is that he paid the price for all of us. You have to do nothing except accept humble yourself and realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus as Lord. That's my belief, but you are totally free to believe something else. At the end of the day you may be right, but I personally believe otherwise.

I'm not trying to shove it down your throat that I'm right. I'm just wanting some semblance of logic to believing in Bible God because Heaven after death really does sound fucking awesome.

Problem is, the more I discuss this with believers, the more illogical and frankly offensive it becomes to me.

[2centsworth]

Tithing is not a salvation issue. Christians tend to be the most charitable people in the world. Do some overstep by trying to impose "religion" on others? Yes, but we are all human and make mistakes. Again, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. That's what's great about this country.

[Blake]

Tithing is not connected to forgiveness. It's a duty that supports the church's outreach programs among other initiatives and costs. So no, you really cant tie that to forgiveness even remotely.

Right, that's why I said ” not directly”.

But the way it goes is that the good christian will tell you that no matter what you've done, God will forgive you. He then will tell you to go church to learn more.

And if it's on the north side of San Antonio, this extra member might be the one whose tithe pays for the on site coffee shop. ” the Brew Testament” or something.

[2centsworth]

I'm not trying to shove it down your throat that I'm right. I'm just wanting some semblance of logic to believing in Bible God because Heaven after death really does sound fucking awesome.

Problem is, the more I discuss this with believers, the more illogical and frankly offensive it becomes to me.

I didn't take it that way. Heaven does sound awesome, but I'm a believer because it makes me a better person. It does the best job at keeping me humble and treating people right.

I'm not perfect, but I can honesty say my faith is the best thing that ever happened to me. Maybe I was just a really terrible person in need of saving:)?

[TeyshaBlue]

the Brew Testament”

:lol:lol:lol

[spursncowboys]

I am watching a film called Into The Abyss which is a doco about two blokes on death row.

One of them says he has repented for his sins and he's going to heaven. What I don't understand is that christianity forgives anything you've done if you repent before death.... can anyone explain to me why this religion makes it so if a person who murders multiple people (or whatever) but repents its fine.. but if you are not religious you will go to hell even if you're a good person
I asked this same question when I was a kid going to church for the first time. No one knows the actual standard for what repent means. It's hard to assume that say Hitler, right before he died, could have asked for forgiveness and gotten it. My church (non denomination) taught that you had to have true openness of your heart when you ask for forgiveness.

Some christian groups believe that non believers will go to pergatory. Some feel that if someone believes in their beliefs and do jesus' teaching then they will go to heaven.
It's a good question though. My advice would be that you go ask an actual pastor. They would def be able to give a better answer than myself or anyone on here. Or you could join Lngr's church. His sounds pretty cool! I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with one of Godzilla's opponent

[spursncowboys]

The Catholic church monetized forgiveness. The rest of them, not so much.

True The RCC has had some bad Popes. But they have also had some great ones. They have done so much great and helped so many. The Maranists are one of the greatest groups of people in history IMO.

[boutons_deux]

Confirmed: Atheists more motivated by compassion in charitable giving than believers are
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/05/01/confirmed-atheists-more-motivated-by-compassion-in-charitable-giving-than-believers-are/

[vy65]

lol confirmed

[spursncowboys]

Confirmed: Atheists more motivated by compassion in charitable giving than believers are


http://hotair.com/archives/2012/05/01/confirmed-atheists-more-motivated-by-compassion-in-charitable-giving-than-believers-are/

Did you read the update in that blog?

[spursncowboys]

B_D article

Update: John McCormack of the Standard e-mails with a link to this Arthur Brooks piece from 2003 (http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577). The numbers are … not good:

[spursncowboys]

B_D's articleThe differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions…

[spursncowboys]

B_D's article


Charity differences between religious and secular people persist if we look at the actual amounts of donations and volunteering. Indeed, measures of the dollars given and occasions volunteered per year produce a yawning gap between the groups. The average annual giving among the religious is $2,210, whereas it is $642 among the secular. Similarly, religious people volunteer an average of 12 times per year, while secular people volunteer an average of 5.8 times. To put this into perspective, religious people are 33 percent of the population but make 52 percent of donations and 45 percent of times volunteered. Secular people are 26 percent of the population but contribute 13 percent of the dollars and 17 percent of the times volunteered.

[spursncowboys]

Same article



These differences hardly change when we consider them in isolation from the other demographics, using a statistical technique called tobit regression. Religious practice by itself is associated with $1,388 more given per year than we would expect to see from a secular person (with the same political views, income, education, age, race, and other characteristics), as well as with 6.5 more occasions of volunteering.

[Blake]

I didn't take it that way. Heaven does sound awesome, but I'm a believer because it makes me a better person. It does the best job at keeping me humble and treating people right.

I'm not perfect, but I can honesty say my faith is the best thing that ever happened to me. Maybe I was just a really terrible person in need of saving:)?

Is slavery a way of treating people right?

[TeyshaBlue]

Confirmed: Atheists more motivated by compassion in charitable giving than believers are
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/05/01/confirmed-atheists-more-motivated-by-compassion-in-charitable-giving-than-believers-are/

Fuck...you've bitch slapped yourself again.:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lma o:lmao:lmao:lmao

" The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions…

Charity differences between religious and secular people persist if we look at the actual amounts of donations and volunteering. Indeed, measures of the dollars given and occasions volunteered per year produce a yawning gap between the groups. The average annual giving among the religious is $2,210, whereas it is $642 among the secular. Similarly, religious people volunteer an average of 12 times per year, while secular people volunteer an average of 5.8 times. To put this into perspective, religious people are 33 percent of the population but make 52 percent of donations and 45 percent of times volunteered. Secular people are 26 percent of the population but contribute 13 percent of the dollars and 17 percent of the times volunteered.

These differences hardly change when we consider them in isolation from the other demographics, using a statistical technique called tobit regression. Religious practice by itself is associated with $1,388 more given per year than we would expect to see from a secular person (with the same political views, income, education, age, race, and other characteristics), as well as with 6.5 more occasions of volunteering."

[TeyshaBlue]

Is slavery a way of treating people right?

Do all Christians condone slavery?

[2centsworth]

Is slavery a way of treating people right?
I'm not gonna argue theology,cuz it would take 1000 pages and I don't have the time or credentials.

i just shared a little bit of my personal story.

[TeyshaBlue]

Did you read the update in that blog?

I like how boutons wont come within 1000 miles of this thread now.:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Blake]

Do all Christians condone slavery?

Christ himself condones it.

[TeyshaBlue]

Not exactly the answer to the question I asked, but it'll do.

[Blake]

I like how boutons wont come within 1000 miles of this thread now.:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

I'm sure he'll come back in here with a new copy paste on a different tangent.

[Blake]

Not exactly the answer to the question I asked, but it'll do.

we can go down the bible trail of ” if X is true then Y is impossible” if you want. I'm good either way.

[TeyshaBlue]

we can go down the bible trail of ” if X is true then Y is impossible” if you want. I'm good either way.

nah....I get my ass beat everytime I do that with you.:lol

[Blake]

I'm not gonna argue theology,cuz it would take 1000 pages and I don't have the time or credentials.

i just shared a little bit of my personal story.

I don't blame you. It's mentally easier just to lazily rely on faith.

[Blake]

nah....I get my ass beat everytime I do that with you.:lol

Actually I meant if X in the Bible is true then Y must be true but it's not = paradox.

I know it's hard to believe but it would be the most incredible thing in the history of ever for someone somewhere to come along with a valid reason for the existence of a rewarding afterlife...

I think if you are going to spend time and money by subscribing to a religion, you aren't doing yourself any favors if you can't scrutinize it and see if it holds. That's why I'm an ass when someone walks in waving their Bible.

[spursncowboys]

Not exactly the answer to the question I asked, but it'll do.

Definition of CONDONE: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blameworthy)) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

It's an answer. However not correct.

[Blake]

[h=2]

It's an answer. However not correct.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

My answer is absolutely correct.

[sjacquemotte]

Negative.

[sjacquemotte]

It's also pretty asinine to instill slavery into a god forgiving topic.
With nothing. Aussie had a legit post. Why not make your own op about that instead of trolling this one,

[Woo Bum-kon]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

lol worshipping a monster who condones slavery.

[sjacquemotte]

Leviticus. .. :toast

[Woo Bum-kon]

:lol "The Bible is the word of God, except when I don't want it to be"

[2centsworth]

Just don't have the time for spurstalk debate, especially with someone who's got it
all figured out.

[Woo Bum-kon]

The mercy is that he paid the price for all of us.

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1143/tadahjesusdu0.jpg

[sjacquemotte]

Just don't have the time for spurstalk debate, especially with someone who's got it
all figured out.precisely

[sjacquemotte]

:lol "The Bible is the word of God, except when I don't want it to be"
Who's talking about the bible?

[sjacquemotte]

Over you head?

[Woo Bum-kon]

Nah, it's really because neither of you can logically defend your position.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Who's talking about the bible?

How do you think Blake came to the conclusion that Jesus condones slavery? The Bible.

[sjacquemotte]

It's funny how atheists play the same closed minded cards everytime. Way to focus on putting someone's views down without a word of your own. It's safer that way. :toast

[Woo Bum-kon]

It's funny how atheists play the same closed minded cards everytime. Way to focus on putting someone's views down without a word of your own. It's safer that way. :toast

:lol being logical =/= being close-minded

My view is that the God of the Bible is a moron who isn't worth worshipping. What else do you want?

[sjacquemotte]

How do you think Blake came to the conclusion that Jesus condones slavery? The Bible.

I have no clue. Because Jesus doesn't, I don't know where he would of gotten that. Jesus isn't god. But then again it wouldn't make your picture work.

[Woo Bum-kon]

I have no clue. Because Jesus doesn't, I don't know where he would of gotten that. Jesus isn't god. But then again it wouldn't make your picture work.

To Christians, Jesus is God. If you aren't a Christian, then the argument doesn't concern you.

[sjacquemotte]

You should really do a little research

[baseline bum]

:lol "The Bible is the word of God, except when I don't want it to be"

:lol


http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1143/tadahjesusdu0.jpg

<robin lopez.gif>

[Woo Bum-kon]

You should really do a little research

No, you should. The Holy Trinity isn't all that obscure.

[Blake]

Negative.

couldn't be more positive.

Agree to agree you're an idiot.

[LnGrrrR]

Just because God laid out rules about slavery, and which slavery was acceptable and which wasn't, doesn't mean that God thought slavery was acceptable! Plus, slavery was almost somewhat kinda like indentured servitude (with a few, tiny, small, miniscule caveats) so it's not the same anyways!

[Blake]

Just don't have the time for spurstalk debate, especially with someone who's got it
all figured out.

the ol' ”I only have enough time to tell you I don't have enough time for you.”

the truth can hurt. I really don't blame you for running away.

[Blake]

Who's talking about the bible?

Good point. I could have easily been talking the other Jesus Christ.

[Blake]

Jesus isn't god.

jesus christ you're stupid.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Saying your sorry and really meaning it is the key to salvation. That and the understanding that you are a debased waste of carbon that is only allowed to exist but for the grace of God.

Slave morality is about right. No wonder the 18th and 19th century African migrants took to it so well.

[silverblk mystix]

I am watching a film called Into The Abyss which is a doco about two blokes on death row.

One of them says he has repented for his sins and he's going to heaven. What I don't understand is that christianity forgives anything you've done if you repent before death.... can anyone explain to me why this religion makes it so if a person who murders multiple people (or whatever) but repents its fine.. but if you are not religious you will go to hell even if you're a good person

Because they have been brainwashed differently than people who don't believe in this. Not better. Not worse. Just differently. But you really didn't want truth did you?

[Drachen]

I'm not gonna argue theology,cuz it would take 1000 pages and I don't have the time or credentials.

i just shared a little bit of my personal story.

I am an athiest and want to thank you for the way that your responded to this thread.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Because they have been brainwashed differently than people who don't believe in this. Not better. Not worse. Just differently. But you really didn't want truth did you?

How have people who don't believe been brainwashed?

[Blake]

Because they have been brainwashed differently than people who don't believe in this. Not better. Not worse. Just differently. But you really didn't want truth did you?

you're assuming brainwashing.

you're also a fucking idiot.

[TeyshaBlue]

I am an athiest and want to thank you for the way that your responded to this thread.

I am an athiest and want to tell Drachen to gfy.

[TeyshaBlue]

However, the atheist in me want to tell Drachen to gfy too. Wierd. or Weird.

[TeyshaBlue]

You say tomato and I say gfy.......everybody sing!

[Blake]

Stop with the blatant attempts at brainwashing

[TeyshaBlue]

Stop with the blatant attempts at brainwashing

You too will tell Drachen to gfy..../jedi

[silverblk mystix]

How have people who don't believe been brainwashed?


Just name it;

If you have an idea of what god looks like- you have been brainwashed because no one knows what he looks like.

If you are certain there is no god - you have been brainwashed because no one knows.

All of us have been brainwashed. Including myself. But you absolutely are not interested in truth or in trying to - un-brainwash yourself - or in other words- in waking up - so what is the point?

Just continue living life with eyes closed.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Just name it;

If you have an idea of what god looks like- you have been brainwashed because no one knows what he looks like.

If you are certain there is no god - you have been brainwashed because no one knows.

All of us have been brainwashed. Including myself. But you absolutely are not interested in truth or in trying to - un-brainwash yourself - or in other words- in waking up - so what is the point?

Just continue living life with eyes closed.

You don't know what "brainwash" means.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just name it;

If you have an idea of what god looks like- you have been brainwashed because no one knows what he looks like.

If you are certain there is no god - you have been brainwashed because no one knows.

All of us have been brainwashed. Including myself. But you absolutely are not interested in truth or in trying to - un-brainwash yourself - or in other words- in waking up - so what is the point?

Just continue living life with eyes closed.

Having an abstract idea does not equal brainwashing. Just stop.

[silverblk mystix]

You don't know what "brainwash" means.


If you came into the world - a clean slate- and then were given a set of programs that you now consider "fact" - which may or not be fact - you have certainly been brainwashed.

If you have a different explanation - please share.

[silverblk mystix]

Having an abstract idea does not equal brainwashing. Just stop.

If you think you know something as "fact" when it may or may not be "fact" - then what do you call it?

You (and I and everyone else) were programmed from birth. If this is not brainwashing - what is?

[Blake]

If you came into the world - a clean slate- and then were given a set of programs that you now consider "fact" - which may or not be fact - you have certainly been brainwashed.

If you have a different explanation - please share.

The only explanation here is that you are a fucking idiot.

[Woo Bum-kon]

If you came into the world - a clean slate- and then were given a set of programs that you now consider "fact" - which may or not be fact - you have certainly been brainwashed.

Give an example of one of these programs.


If you have a different explanation - please share.

I have no idea what the hell nonsense you are spouting. I just want you to shut up at this point.


If you think you know something as "fact" when it may or may not be "fact" - then what do you call it?

It's called being wrong, obviously.


You (and I and everyone else) were programmed from birth. If this is not brainwashing - what is?

Programmed with what? Programmed about what? How does this have to do with believing in God?

[LnGrrrR]

Just name it;

If you have an idea of what god looks like- you have been brainwashed because no one knows what he looks like.

If you are certain there is no god - you have been brainwashed because no one knows.

All of us have been brainwashed. Including myself. But you absolutely are not interested in truth or in trying to - un-brainwash yourself - or in other words- in waking up - so what is the point?

Just continue living life with eyes closed.

There is at least one person in this thread that is definitely brainwashed.

Care to take a guess which one it is?

[LnGrrrR]

If you think you know something as "fact" when it may or may not be "fact" - then what do you call it?

You (and I and everyone else) were programmed from birth. If this is not brainwashing - what is?

I'd call it using rational thinking. After all, you don't KNOW that the sun will come up tomorrow. Does that mean you should just spend everything you have tonight on an awesome hooker party?

[TeyshaBlue]

If you think you know something as "fact" when it may or may not be "fact" - then what do you call it?

You (and I and everyone else) were programmed from birth. If this is not brainwashing - what is?

There's a thousand words for it. Theory. Hunch. Faith. etc.... c'mon man, think thru this just a little bit.

[silverblk mystix]

There is at least one person in this thread that is definitely brainwashed.

Care to take a guess which one it is?


Well, one of the first ways of knowing if you are brainwashed - is that when your beliefs are questioned or attacked - you are stung. You feel like lashing out.


Pretty much describes your post.

[TeyshaBlue]

Rasing children within a framework of acceptable social mores is not fucking programming. Programming is a passive, receiver term. Raising a child is interactive, not programming.

[Blake]

I'd call it using rational thinking. After all, you don't KNOW that the sun will come up tomorrow. Does that mean you should just spend everything you have tonight on an awesome hooker party?

Fuck yes.

#vince20%loan

[silverblk mystix]

There's a thousand words for it. Theory. Hunch. Faith. etc.... c'mon man, think thru this just a little bit.


Look at the replies. Everyone lashes out because their views/beliefs/false thinking has been questioned or attacked. Clear sign of brainwashing.

If you think you know god does or doesn't exist - how can you not be brainwashed if no one on this planet knows this answer. How can you be the one that knows?

You don't. You are brainwashed into believing that you KNOW.

[Blake]

Well, one of the first ways of knowing if you are brainwashed - is that when your beliefs are questioned or attacked - you are stung. You feel like lashing out.


Pretty much describes your post.

Brainwashing expert ^

[Woo Bum-kon]

Look at the replies. Everyone lashes out because their views/beliefs/false thinking has been questioned or attacked. Clear sign of brainwashing.

:lol We're lashing out because you are posting moronic bullshit.


If you think you know god does or doesn't exist - how can you not be brainwashed if no one on this planet knows this answer.

Thinking and knowledge are not the same thing. I think that God doesn't exist. If God did exist, that would make me wrong--not brainwashed.


You don't. You are brainwashed into believing that you KNOW.

Stop throwing around terms you don't know the meaning of, dummy.

[silverblk mystix]

Before all of you go into attack/insult/childish modes...let me state ...this is in regards to matters of love/god/freedom/spirituality. etc...

NOT regarding mundane and mechanical things like learning to drive a car, learning to do math, learning to walk, learning to brush your teeth - bs


I am referring to the above matters only. Things in life that matter. Not the mechanical robotic things that we all learned how to do to survive.

Otherwise idiots will turn it into another bashfest.

[TeyshaBlue]

Look at the replies. Everyone lashes out because their views/beliefs/false thinking has been questioned or attacked. Clear sign of brainwashing.

If you think you know god does or doesn't exist - how can you not be brainwashed if no one on this planet knows this answer. How can you be the one that knows?

You don't. You are brainwashed into believing that you KNOW.

Having faith or believing in something that is not demonstrably evident is not brainwashing. Seriously. Go find a clinical definition of brainwashing then come back to this conversation.

[silverblk mystix]

:lol We're lashing out because you are posting moronic bullshit.



Thinking and knowledge are not the same thing. I think that God doesn't exist. If God did exist, that would make me wrong--not brainwashed.



Stop throwing around terms you don't know the meaning of, dummy.

Fair enough - you admit you THINK you know that god doesn't exist. Then I will take you at your word that you are NOT one of the people that bashes religious believers because they THINK they know , right?

[TeyshaBlue]

Before all of you go into attack/insult/childish modes...let me state ...this is in regards to matters of love/god/freedom/spirituality. etc...

NOT regarding mundane and mechanical things like learning to drive a car, learning to do math, learning to walk, learning to brush your teeth - bs


I am referring to the above matters only. Things in life that matter. Not the mechanical robotic things that we all learned how to do to survive.

Otherwise idiots will turn it into another bashfest.

This is not how you prefaced the discussion. That you now need to clarify the boundaries is more than a little telling.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Love is a result of chemical reactions in the brain.

Gods are a result of humanity's lack of knowledge.

Freedom is a concept created by humans.

Spirituality has so many different meanings, depending on the person, that it is a meaningless word.

Where does the brainwashing come in?

[silverblk mystix]

Having faith or believing in something that is not demonstrably evident is not brainwashing. Seriously. Go find a clinical definition of brainwashing then come back to this conversation.

How's this;

brainwash |ˈbrānˌwô sh; -ˌwä sh |verb [ trans. ]make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic andoften forcible pressure : the organization could brainwash young people | they have been brainwashed into conformity and subservience.


How bout that?

[Woo Bum-kon]

Fair enough - you admit you THINK you know that god doesn't exist. Then I will take you at your word that you are NOT one of the people that bashes religious believers because they THINK they know , right?

Wrong. I bash people for believing in God because they do so for poor reasons.

One can believe that aliens exist based off the vastness of the universe and the fact that life has already sprouted up here. That would be a reasonable belief, but it wouldn't be knowledge.

People who believe in the supernatural don't have any logical basis for their beliefs, which makes them subject to ridicule.

[Woo Bum-kon]

How's this;

brainwash |ˈbrānˌwô sh; -ˌwä sh |verb [ trans. ]make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic andoften forcible pressure : the organization could brainwash young people | they have been brainwashed into conformity and subservience.


How bout that?

You haven't made any connection whatsoever between the definition of "brainwash" and the claim that you are asserting. All you have done is vaguely claim that everybody has been brainwashed, and then you equated being wrong with being brainwashed, which aren't the same thing.

[silverblk mystix]

Wrong. I bash people for believing in God because they do so for poor reasons.

One can believe that aliens exist based off the vastness of the universe and the fact that life has already sprouted up here. That would be a reasonable belief, but it wouldn't be knowledge.

People who believe in the supernatural don't have any logical basis for their beliefs, which makes them subject to ridicule.



So you bash people who have been brainwashed into believing that God exists because you have been brainwashed into believing that God doesn't exist.

Got it! Thanks!

[TeyshaBlue]

Good. Now, you've got to define the elements of brainwashing and apply them to context..ie radically different beliefs in context to X. Get to work.

[SA210]

So you bash people who have been brainwashed into believing that God exists because you have been brainwashed into believing that God doesn't exist.

Got it! Thanks!

:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Good. Now, you've got to define the elements of brainwashing and apply them to context..ie radically different beliefs in context to X. Get to work.

Because, until you can do this, you cannot make the case for brainwashing.

[Woo Bum-kon]

So you bash people who have been brainwashed into believing that God exists because you have been brainwashed into believing that God doesn't exist.

You continuing to assert that something is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence that I have been brainwashed.

I haven't been brainwashed into thinking that tooth fairies don't exist. Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. God hasn't met its burden of proof, so I don't believe in him. It's that simple.

[silverblk mystix]

Because, until you can do this, you cannot make the case for brainwashing.

I am not making any cases to anything - I merely answered the OP's question - and I answered it truthfully and correctly.

A) No one knows or has proven that God exists.

B) No one knows or has proven that God does NOT exist.

C) The people on either side that claim to know are brainwashed into thinking they know.

All of us have a lot of brainwashing to clear during our lifetime if we ever want to be free of any of it and hopefully arrive nearer to truth.

Until then - live with whatever level of brainwashing you are comfortable with.

[Woo Bum-kon]

C) The people on either side that claim to know are brainwashed into thinking they know.

How? You keep stating this, yet you have provided no evidence for this claim at all. Even the definition of "brainwash" that you posted does not support your claim.

[silverblk mystix]

You continuing to assert that something is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence that I have been brainwashed.

I haven't been brainwashed into thinking that tooth fairies don't exist. Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. God hasn't met its burden of proof, so I don't believe in him. It's that simple.


#1) You or I or anyone else alive don't know who or what "god" is...how the hell do you think your little "logic 101" is going to apply to him or her or it?

Stupid Stupid Stupid.

Just because some professor taught you a little "burden of proof 101" doesn't mean that a "god" is going to "subscribe" to your little "I don't have to prove....blather"

You aren't able to corral "god" into your little "logic 101 classroom" and have him play your "proof" game.

If you can say you don't know if god exists - you might not be brainwashed.

If you say - I know god doesn't exist because "he hasn't proven it" then you are most certainly brainwashed into believing you "KNOW" something.

You don't KNOW much at all in these matters - neither do any of the rest of us in here.

[Drachen]

I am an athiest and want to tell Drachen to gfy.


However, the atheist in me want to tell Drachen to gfy too. Wierd. or Weird.

I think your engagement of BD is getting to you again, old man.

[Drachen]

I am an athiest and want to tell Drachen to gfy.


Just name it;

If you have an idea of what god looks like- you have been brainwashed because no one knows what he looks like.

If you are certain there is no god - you have been brainwashed because no one knows.

All of us have been brainwashed. Including myself. But you absolutely are not interested in truth or in trying to - un-brainwash yourself - or in other words- in waking up - so what is the point?

Just continue living life with eyes closed.

God looks wet and he is red or blue depending on what room he is in. I know this because I have been told that he lives in my heart.

[Blake]

I think your engagement of BD is getting to you again, old man.

Gfy

[Blake]

Sorry Drachen.

....brainwashed and all...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All of this recent conversation is besides the point. To me the question is that absent teaching, would God as he is known in any religion that you choose be arrived at?

I would argue that the answer to that is no evidenced by the radical differences in deism found in isolated populations. It is no coincidence that all of the major religions are exclusionary and have proselytization deeply rooted in doctrine. It doesn't come about on its own.

Now if you like you can argue that most every society comes up with some sort of God and I cannot disagree with that but I see no reason at all whatsoever to believe in any self evident, a priori, objective 'God.'

[Woo Bum-kon]

#1) You or I or anyone else alive don't know who or what "god" is...how the hell do you think your little "logic 101" is going to apply to him or her or it?

Why wouldn't logic apply? We apply logic to everything else, so why does God get a pass?


Just because some professor taught you a little "burden of proof 101" doesn't mean that a "god" is going to "subscribe" to your little "I don't have to prove....blather"

It's not about God applying; it's about us applying the burden of proof to God. You haven't explained why we should give him a pass yet.


You aren't able to corral "god" into your little "logic 101 classroom" and have him play your "proof" game.

Yes I am, and I just did.


If you can say you don't know if god exists - you might not be brainwashed.

Not really.


If you say - I know god doesn't exist because "he hasn't proven it" then you are most certainly brainwashed into believing you "KNOW" something.

No, I am not. Again, you don't know what "brainwash" means.


You don't KNOW much at all in these matters - neither do any of the rest of us in here.

Again, you're a moron. I already made the distinction between knowledge and belief, so you trying to pull this card only makes you look more like a dumbass. I can come to the logical conclusion that God doesn't exist because there is zero evidence that he exists. That is not the same as knowing that God does not exist.

If I am wrong, I am wrong. That doesn't mean that I was brainwashed.

[silverblk mystix]

God looks wet and he is red or blue depending on what room he is in. I know this because I have been told that he lives in my heart.


Well, you obviously are brainwashed- and worse - you were brainwashed by someone pretty fuckin' stupid...:lmao

[Blake]

You don't KNOW much at all in these matters - neither do any of the rest of us in here.

you've been brainwashed into thinking you don't know much.

Yet you act as if you have extensive knowledge that we don't know much.

Rather paradoxical

[TeyshaBlue]

I am not making any cases to anything - I merely answered the OP's question - and I answered it truthfully and correctly.


Ummm no, you didn't. You inserted brainwashing into the discussion as a methodology without the slightest attempt at a test of concept. You still cannot make the case for brainwashing in a cogent manner.

[silverblk mystix]

Why wouldn't logic apply? We apply logic to everything else, so why does God get a pass?



It's not about God applying; it's about us applying the burden of proof to God. You haven't explained why we should give him a pass yet.



Yes I am, and I just did.



Not really.



No, I am not. Again, you don't know what "brainwash" means.



Again, you're a moron. I already made the distinction between knowledge and belief, so you trying to pull this card only makes you look more like a dumbass. I can come to the logical conclusion that God doesn't exist because there is zero evidence that he exists. That is not the same as knowing that God does not exist.

If I am wrong, I am wrong. That doesn't mean that I was brainwashed.


You can apply logic to mechanical things all you want.

Applying logic to god which is a mystery is like a blind man who has never seen describing what the color GREEN is.

He should STFU because - just like you - HE HAS NEVER SEEN!

No one on this planet has SEEN GOD so you don't know what the fuck you are blabbering about. But you have most definitely been BRAINWASHED into thinking that you can figure out whether god exists or doesn't through your JR. COLLEGE LOGIC!!!!!


So if you continue to assert you KNOW that god doesn't exist - you are certainly proving how strong your brainwashing is.

[TeyshaBlue]

You can apply logic to mechanical things all you want.

Applying logic to god which is a mystery is like a blind man who has never seen describing what the color GREEN is.

He should STFU because - just like you - HE HAS NEVER SEEN!

No one on this planet has SEEN GOD so you don't know what the fuck you are blabbering about. But you have most definitely been BRAINWASHED into thinking that you can figure out whether god exists or doesn't through your JR. COLLEGE LOGIC!!!!!


So if you continue to assert you KNOW that god doesn't exist - you are certainly proving how strong your brainwashing is.

http://blog.shirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/wordmeans.jpg

[silverblk mystix]

Ummm no, you didn't. You inserted brainwashing into the discussion as a methodology without the slightest attempt at a test of concept. You still cannot make the case for brainwashing in a cogent manner.


Well - first of all - I don't know what you believe or don't believe or anything else about you - so I couldn't point out where your brainwashing lies.

If you are a human being - you didn't just wake up today and suddenly know things, right?

So someone brainwashed you but I don't know to what extent yet.

[Blake]

So if you continue to assert you KNOW that god doesn't exist - you are certainly proving how strong your brainwashing is.

just leave, retard.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well - first of all - I don't know what you believe or don't believe or anything else about you - so I couldn't point out where your brainwashing lies.

If you are a human being - you didn't just wake up today and suddenly know things, right?

So someone brainwashed you but I don't know to what extent yet.

No, I learned things. In that process I discarded things I didn't believe to be true and accepted some things might be true, while understanding that other things are demonstrably true.
Nobody programmed me when I woke up today.

[Woo Bum-kon]

You can apply logic to mechanical things all you want.

Applying logic to god which is a mystery is like a blind man who has never seen describing what the color GREEN is.

No, not really. Unicorns have never been seen, but we can come to the logical conclusion that they don't exist because there is zero evidence for their existence. The same goes to God.


He should STFU because - just like you - HE HAS NEVER SEEN!

See above.


No one on this planet has SEEN GOD so you don't know what the fuck you are blabbering about. But you have most definitely been BRAINWASHED into thinking that you can figure out whether god exists or doesn't through your JR. COLLEGE LOGIC!!!!!

No, I have not. You don't know what brainwashing means.


So if you continue to assert you KNOW that god doesn't exist - you are certainly proving how strong your brainwashing is.

:lmao You are a complete dumbass with zero reading comprehension. FOR THE THIRD TIME, I AM NOT CLAIMING TO KNOW THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST. I have stated repeatedly that I came to the logical conclusion that God doesn't exist based on lack of evidence for his existence. I am not claiming to know, because knowledge is justified true belief, and I can't possible demonstrate that God--or any gods--don't exist.

Your argument is self-defeating, because you are trying to use logic to show that logic doesn't apply.

[TeyshaBlue]

I understand the case you are trying to make. Were I to apply your contextualization, I would assert that you were the product of vigorous brainwashing.

[Blake]

So someone brainwashed you but I don't know to what extent yet.

Tell us your diagnosis Dr. Brainwash

[TeyshaBlue]

Tell us your diagnosis Dr. Brainwash

Pretty decent super-villan, tbh.

[Woo Bum-kon]

So, silverblk mystix first started off by saying that everybody has been brainwashed because they have been taught things are true without knowing if they are true or not. He then backtracked and stated that this brainwashing only applies to things like God, freedom, love, and spirituality without making any kind of argument for why that's true. Now he's just equating being wrong about something with being brainwashed, but he can't provide a single definition of "brainwash" that defines it as just "being wrong about something."

[Blake]

Your argument is self-defeating, because you are trying to use logic to show that logic doesn't apply.

That's the brainwash talking.

[silverblk mystix]

No, not really. Unicorns have never been seen, but we can come to the logical conclusion that they don't exist because there is zero evidence for their existence. The same goes to God.



See above.



No, I have not. You don't know what brainwashing means.



:lmao You are a complete dumbass with zero reading comprehension. FOR THE THIRD TIME, I AM NOT CLAIMING TO KNOW THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST. I have stated repeatedly that I came to the logical conclusion that God doesn't exist based on lack of evidence for his existence. I am not claiming to know, because knowledge is justified true belief, and I can't possible demonstrate that God--or any gods--don't exist.

Your argument is self-defeating, because you are trying to use logic to show that logic doesn't apply.


So you bash others who have been brainwashed into thinking that god exists - but you now admit that you don't really KNOW that god does NOT exist.

Ok got it this time! Thanks!

Maybe in the future - you WONT bash believers because they are no different than you - they have just been brainwashed a little differently than yourself.

Kinda back to my original post in this thread don't you think?

Your BRAINWASHING is that you think you can apply logic to something that is a complete mystery. Kinda like pissing in the wind isn't it?

[Blake]

Your BRAINWASHING is that you think you can apply logic to something that is a complete mystery. Kinda like pissing in the wind isn't it?

you're calling yourself the wind? Why?

[Woo Bum-kon]

:rollin This reminds of all those times Avante bashed logic while trying to make logical arguments that God exists. This is idiocy, pure and simple.


So you bash others who have been brainwashed into thinking that god exists - but you now admit that you don't really KNOW that god does NOT exist.

:lmao I admitted that several pages ago, dumbass. You even addressed the post in which I admitted that. Do you have short term memory loss, Leonard Shelby?


Maybe in the future - you WONT bash believers because they are no different than you - they have just been brainwashed a little differently than yourself.

Not really. Again, you repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.


Kinda back to my original post in this thread don't you think?

Yeah, the original post that you have completely failed to support with any kind of evidence whatsoever.


Your BRAINWASHING is that you think you can apply logic to something that is a complete mystery. Kinda like pissing in the wind isn't it?

That's not what brainwashing means and you don't know how logic works. You're a dumbass.

[silverblk mystix]

:rollin This reminds of all those times Avante bashed logic while trying to make logical arguments that God exists. This is idiocy, pure and simple.



:lmao I admitted that several pages ago, dumbass. You even addressed the post in which I admitted that. Do you have short term memory loss, Leonard Shelby?



Not really. Again, you repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.



Yeah, the original post that you have completely failed to support with any kind of evidence whatsoever.



That's not what brainwashing means and you don't know how logic works. You're a dumbass.

If this isn't brainwashing - please refute it;

When you are convinced that your BELIEFS are facts. And you will DEFEND these beliefs stubbornly. These beliefs are sometimes defended to the death.

This is brainwashing.

If you opened your eyes someday - you would see that those beliefs were not FACTS at all. You just convinced yourself that you knew.

You convinced yourself or somebody convinced you (or brainwashed you) into believing you knew something to be a fact when it was a belief and you died defending this belief. You were brainwashed.

Certainly describes a lot of people who think they KNOW


In matters of love/god/freedom, etc...

[TeyshaBlue]

Conviction =/= brainwashing.

[Blake]

If this isn't brainwashing - please refute it;

When you are convinced that your BELIEFS are facts. And you will DEFEND these beliefs stubbornly. These beliefs are sometimes defended to the death.

This is brainwashing.

If you opened your eyes someday - you would see that those beliefs were not FACTS at all. You just convinced yourself that you knew.

You convinced yourself or somebody convinced you (or brainwashed you) into believing you knew something to be a fact when it was a belief and you died defending this belief. You were brainwashed.

Certainly describes a lot of people who think they KNOW


In matters of love/god/freedom, etc...

How do you know they don't know? Who are you to dictate such laws of logic and the universe?

[AussieFanKurt]

I don't have anything wrong with believing in god because not like I know if there is one, my problem is with man-made religion

[Woo Bum-kon]

If this isn't brainwashing - please refute it;

You have the burden of proof, not me.


When you are convinced that your BELIEFS are facts. And you will DEFEND these beliefs stubbornly. These beliefs are sometimes defended to the death.

Sure.


This is brainwashing.

No, it is not. If somebody tried to tell me that 2+2=5, I would be absolutely convinced that that person is wrong. No brainwashing necessary.


If you opened your eyes someday - you would see that those beliefs were not FACTS at all. You just convinced yourself that you knew.

There you go lying again.


You convinced yourself or somebody convinced you (or brainwashed you) into believing you knew something to be a fact when it was a belief and you died defending this belief. You were brainwashed.

Nope. And there you going lying again.


Certainly describes a lot of people who think they KNOW

Certainly shows that you have no idea what "brainwashing" is.


In matters of love/god/freedom, etc...

You add this qualifier without expounding upon it in any way, which makes it useless.

[spursncowboys]

I'd call it using rational thinking. After all, you don't KNOW that the sun will come up tomorrow. Does that mean you should just spend everything you have tonight on an awesome hooker party?
Does the Pope poop in the woods?

[silverblk mystix]

How do you know they don't know? Who are you to dictate such laws of logic and the universe?

Because there is no one on the planet that knows -

no one knows if there is a god

no one knows if there is not a god

So the people that are convinced they KNOW are simply brainwashed.

[Woo Bum-kon]

So the people that are convinced they KNOW are simply brainwashed.

That's not what "brainwash" means, dummy.

[Blake]

Because there is no one on the planet that knows -

Using your logic:

You don't know that there is no one on this planet that knows.

[silverblk mystix]

Using your logic:

You don't know that there is no one on this planet that knows.

So stop bashing religious believers because you and I are no different in these matters- we have just been brainwashed differently.

Thanks and good nite.

[baseline bum]

I'd call it using rational thinking. After all, you don't KNOW that the sun will come up tomorrow. Does that mean you should just spend everything you have tonight on an awesome hooker party?

Damn, now this nigga knows how to do Valentine's Day. I'll bring the coke.

[Woo Bum-kon]

So stop bashing religious believers because you and I are no different in these matters- we have just been brainwashed differently.

Thanks and good nite.

For the millionth time, prove that I have been brain washed.

[Blake]

So stop bashing religious believers because you and I are no different in these matters- we have just been brainwashed differently.

We agree that nobody knows shit.

So stop whining when I bash ignorant dip shits that push hate against gays, prayer in schools, In God We Trust on money and so on.


Thanks and good nite.

You're welcome. I thought your dumb ass would never leave.

[LnGrrrR]

Silverblk, do you accept the possible existence of every God?

[LnGrrrR]

Fuck yes.

#vince20%loan

:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tithing is not connected to forgiveness. It's a duty that supports the church's outreach programs among other initiatives and costs.
When you say other initiatives and costs, you're admitting one of those is the pastor's ferrari fund, right?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tithing is not a salvation issue. Christians tend to be the most charitable people in the world. Do some overstep by trying to impose "religion" on others? Yes, but we are all human and make mistakes. Again, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. That's what's great about this country.

Giving money away because you think it's what's required to get into heaven isn't being charitable, it's making an investment. You're investing money to improve your standard of living in the afterlife. It's not different than making an IRA contribution. Real charity is donating money without expecting anything in return.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

There is at least one person in this thread that is definitely brainwashed.

Care to take a guess which one it is?

spursncowboys/Sean Jacquemotte?

[boutons_deux]

Religious states are also the unhappiest (http://www.salon.com/2013/02/15/nations_most_religious_are_also_the_most_depressed _partner/)


A study released (http://www.gallup.com/poll/160415/mississippi-maintains-hold-religious-state.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication) yesterday confirmed that Mississippi remains the most religious state in the Union, followed by a handful of its southern belt brothers: Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, as well as the Mormon stronghold of Utah. The Gallup poll showed that 58 percent of all Mississippians identify as “very religious.” The least religious states in the U.S. are the former stomping grounds of the very,very religious Puritans: Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire.

But life in these highly faithful states doesn’t seem to be all its cracked up to be. The most religious states in the U.S. share another trait: the highest use of anti-depressants.

Utah has long been the nation’s capital of happy pill popping, with its citizens twice as likely to be on anti-depressants than the general U.S. population. But the rest of the observant states aren’t far behind. Of the top-ten most religious states, nine have higher than average use of anti-depressants.

Some states have startlingly medicated populations.

In Utah, Louisiana and Arkansas–the 2nd, 4th and 5th most religious states in the Union– nearly 20 percent (http://www.express-scripts.com/research/research/archive/docs/geoVariationTrends.pdf) of the population is on some form of anti-depressants, according to a 2006 study by one of the largest prescription companies.

The rest of the highly religious states aren’t far behind. Mississippi (most religious), Alabama (third most religious), South Carolina (6th), Tennessee (7th), North Carolina (8th) and Oklahoma (10th) have above average rates of anti-depressant use, with 15 to 17 percent of the citizens medicated. Of the top-ten most religious states, only one–Georgia–isn’t disproportionately addicted to anti-depressants. Nationally, the prescription rate was about 14 percent.

Anti-depressants weren’t the only medication being doled out in the most religious states. In fact, a state’s level of religiosity correlates with a state’s overall medication rate. Of the top ten most religious states in the Union, six are also on the list of top-ten most medicated states. (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/17/most-medicated-states-lifestyle-health-prescription-drugs_slide_11.html)

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/15/nations_most_religious_are_also_the_most_depressed _partner/

[TeyshaBlue]

When you say other initiatives and costs, you're admitting one of those is the pastor's ferrari fund, right?

Specious arguments are specious.

[TeyshaBlue]

Religious states are also the unhappiest (http://www.salon.com/2013/02/15/nations_most_religious_are_also_the_most_depressed _partner/)


A study released (http://www.gallup.com/poll/160415/mississippi-maintains-hold-religious-state.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication) yesterday confirmed that Mississippi remains the most religious state in the Union, followed by a handful of its southern belt brothers: Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, as well as the Mormon stronghold of Utah. The Gallup poll showed that 58 percent of all Mississippians identify as “very religious.” The least religious states in the U.S. are the former stomping grounds of the very,very religious Puritans: Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire.

But life in these highly faithful states doesn’t seem to be all its cracked up to be. The most religious states in the U.S. share another trait: the highest use of anti-depressants.

Utah has long been the nation’s capital of happy pill popping, with its citizens twice as likely to be on anti-depressants than the general U.S. population. But the rest of the observant states aren’t far behind. Of the top-ten most religious states, nine have higher than average use of anti-depressants.

Some states have startlingly medicated populations.

In Utah, Louisiana and Arkansas–the 2nd, 4th and 5th most religious states in the Union– nearly 20 percent (http://www.express-scripts.com/research/research/archive/docs/geoVariationTrends.pdf) of the population is on some form of anti-depressants, according to a 2006 study by one of the largest prescription companies.

The rest of the highly religious states aren’t far behind. Mississippi (most religious), Alabama (third most religious), South Carolina (6th), Tennessee (7th), North Carolina (8th) and Oklahoma (10th) have above average rates of anti-depressant use, with 15 to 17 percent of the citizens medicated. Of the top-ten most religious states, only one–Georgia–isn’t disproportionately addicted to anti-depressants. Nationally, the prescription rate was about 14 percent.

Anti-depressants weren’t the only medication being doled out in the most religious states. In fact, a state’s level of religiosity correlates with a state’s overall medication rate. Of the top ten most religious states in the Union, six are also on the list of top-ten most medicated states. (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/17/most-medicated-states-lifestyle-health-prescription-drugs_slide_11.html)

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/15/nations_most_religious_are_also_the_most_depressed _partner/

lol. This "analysis" was totally destroyed in the comment section.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Specious arguments are specious.

John Hagee's salary is laughing at your specious argument accusation.

[TeyshaBlue]

John Hagee's salary is laughing at your specious argument accusation.

John Hagee =/= churches receiving tithes.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Does Hagee not use tithes to pay his salary?

[TeyshaBlue]

The cloaked conclusion, with zero context, you presented was Church tithes pay for expensive cars.

The obvious lack of any context renders your statement as specious.

[TeyshaBlue]

aka...outliers. Look into it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The cloaked conclusion, with zero context, you presented was Church tithes pay for expensive cars.

The obvious lack of any context renders your statement as specious.

The obvious implication of my argument was tithes pay for the lavish lifestyles of pastors. Sorry if it wasn't obvious (even though it was).

[TeyshaBlue]

The obvious implication of my argument was tithes pay for the lavish lifestyles of pastors. Sorry if it wasn't obvious (even though it was).

of pastors = ?. Conflate much?

I could easily counter with tithes save lives.

Both implications are specious without context, which you've yet to provide.

[TeyshaBlue]

aka...outliers. Look into it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

of pastors = ?. Conflate much?

I could easily counter with tithes save lives.

Both implications are specious without context, which you've yet to provide.
John Hagee's ranch house worth over 2 million:

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/CelebHouses/Pastors/Hagee3.jpg

Is that enough context?

[TeyshaBlue]

aka...outliers. Look into it.
.....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

.....
Here's more context.

http://www1.salary.com/Pastor-Salary.html

The median pastor salary in the U.S. is over $86,000. The median household (not even individual) income in the US is around $50,000. The average pastor uses tithes to pay himself a salary 72% higher than his average member makes. That doesn't seem very Christian at all, imo.

[TeyshaBlue]

Salary.com? Really? Have you read their methodology? Fuck man. Think.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://swz.salary.com/docs/salwizhtmls/methodology.html#Methodology

[TeyshaBlue]

"Im gonna find a website that says what I want it to!"

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol what's wrong with salary.com? Do they have an agenda to demonize pastors?

[TeyshaBlue]

Quick question, DOK.

In the total population of churches in the US, what are the characteristics of a church's salaries that would be pulled into a surveying firm feeding salary.com?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

"Im gonna find a website that says what I want it to!"

:lmao I googled "median pastor salary" and clicked the first site that came up

[spursncowboys]

Salary.com? Really? Have you read their methodology? Fuck man. Think.
Shooting for the stars on that one

[TeyshaBlue]

Would it be the smaller churches, or the country club churches?

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao I googled "median pastor salary" and clicked the first site that came up

Yeah, googles' a genius.

[TeyshaBlue]

Google automatically knows which study is relevant.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm sure you could click on any link in google and it would be super-accurate!

[TeyshaBlue]

/whinehole23 lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Would it be the smaller churches, or the country club churches?

I have no idea. You're obviously very concerned about salary.com's atheist agenda.

[spursncowboys]

Priests take a vow of poverty

I guess DOK would rather pastors be on welfare. Then it's honorable.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm sure you could click on any link in google and it would be super-accurate!

So what do you think the median pastor salary is?

Be specific.

[TeyshaBlue]

I have no idea. You're obviously very concerned about salary.com's atheist agenda.

I'm an atheist, n00b. I'm also an analyst.

[TeyshaBlue]

So what do you think the median pastor salary is?

Be specific.

I'm not the one predicating a argument on pastor salary. You want to use that arguement, back that shit up son.

[TeyshaBlue]

Priests take a vow of poverty

I guess DOK would rather pastors be on welfare. Then it's honorable.

Robert Jeffries says "Hi".

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Priests take a vow of poverty

I guess DOK would rather pastors be on welfare. Then it's honorable.

Why do pastors even need a salary? I'm surprised Jesus doesn't provide for them.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm not the one predicating a argument on pastor salary. You want to use that arguement, back that shit up son.
I already did.

[TeyshaBlue]

I already did.

Ummm...I meant actual data. I've already invalidated that "cite".

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Ummm...I meant actual data. I've already invalidated that "cite".

Median salary is data, regardless of what greedy pastor sympathizers think.

[TeyshaBlue]

"While a salary in the $80,000 range looks good on paper, actual take-home pay for pastors may be much different, perhaps far less. The average base salary of a full-time senior pastor ranges from $33,000 to $70,000. Eighty-four percent of senior pastors say they also receive a housing allowance, which accounts for $20,000 to $38,000 in added compensation."
http://blog.managingyourchurch.com/2012/04/a_breakdown_of_salaries_and_be.html

[TeyshaBlue]

Median salary is data, regardless of what greedy pastor sympathizers think.

Analysts think their methodology sucks for a multi-level population.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

"While a salary in the $80,000 range looks good on paper, actual take-home pay for pastors may be much different, perhaps far less. The average base salary of a full-time senior pastor ranges from $33,000 to $70,000. Eighty-four percent of senior pastors say they also receive a housing allowance, which accounts for $20,000 to $38,000 in added compensation."
http://blog.managingyourchurch.com/2012/04/a_breakdown_of_salaries_and_be.html
If the 20-38k is added to the 33-70k, then the average salary ranges from 53k to 108k, right? That's a lot better than the average american salary range.

The free housing they get totally counts as compensation.

[spursncowboys]

Robert Jeffries says "Hi".
mother teresa just did the "diamond cutter" on him.

[TeyshaBlue]

If the 20-38k is added to the 33-70k, then the average salary ranges from 53k to 108k, right? That's a lot better than the average american salary range.

You're going to predicate this new argument on a range of 53k to 108k? Ok. Have fun with that. Distribution says "hi".

[TeyshaBlue]

Once you've got that whole distribution thing licked, apply it to the average american salary range.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You're going to predicate this new argument on a range of 53k to 108k? Ok. Have fun with that. Distribution says "hi".

The absolute lowest part of that distribution is higher than the average household income. That's before you even factor in the blowjob pastors get from the IRS during tax season.

[TeyshaBlue]

Then, you might be able to make some hay. maybe.

[TeyshaBlue]

This argument is brought to you by: "Pastors make too much money!.com"

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The article YOU posted said the average pay + benefits they get is 82k a year :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Personally, does it even matter?

Not really. An infinitesimally small percentage of the overall working population seems to make more.

That's it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Personally, does it even matter?

Not really. An infinitesimally small percentage of the overall working population seems to make more.

That's it.
It matters to me because of the tax breaks they get because America is obsessed with fellating religious figures.

[TeyshaBlue]

The article YOU posted said the average pay + benefits they get is 82k a year :lol

Yet, they caveat that figure. Odd that salary.com couldn't be bothered to.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yet, they caveat that figure. Odd that salary.com couldn't be bothered to.

They caveat it by saying that free housing somehow shouldn't count as compensation. I'm not sure why covering someone's housing expenses doesn't count as compensation.

[TeyshaBlue]

It matters to me because of the tax breaks they get because America is obsessed with fellating religious figures.

I'm onboard with revisiting the tax structure. Inspite of the last 2 pages, the average pastor is not haggee, or jeffries. Those guys are outliers.

[TeyshaBlue]

They caveat it by saying that free housing somehow shouldn't count as compensation. I'm not sure why covering someone's housing expenses doesn't count as compensation.

Maybe because they cant control for value of said housing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Maybe because they cant control for value of said housing.

Well shit, I can't control the value of the dollar. Does that mean any money I make doesn't count as compensation?

[TeyshaBlue]

Well shit, I can't control the value of the dollar. Does that mean any money I make doesn't count as compensation?

lol wut? You can't see the difference between currency valuation and real estate appraisals?

[TeyshaBlue]

The absolute lowest part of that distribution is higher than the average household income. That's before you even factor in the blowjob pastors get from the IRS during tax season.

That's not what distribution means, in this instance. What effect do the highest salaries have on the entire population?

I think you'll find that Hagge/Jeffries and the other freaks skew the fuck out of the mean because of a smaller data population. Nobody is weighting these salaries to produce a true mean, DOK, and it's ridiculous to toss out a figure as an average when it's not even a true mean.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol wut? You can't see the difference between currency valuation and real estate appraisals?

I can't see why the complexities of real estate appraisal means that free housing for pastors should automatically not count as compensation at all when it has obvious value.

[TeyshaBlue]

I can't see why the complexities of real estate appraisal means that free housing for pastors should automatically not count as compensation at all when it has obvious value.

Really? Should be easy to calculate that obvious value then. What should we use? Local Tax Appraisals? Ummm maybe a real estate appraisal. That would probably work. Maybe it's time to start a new business.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That's not what distribution means, in this instance. What effect do the highest salaries have on the entire population?

I think you'll find that Hagge/Jeffries and the other freaks skew the fuck out of the mean because of a smaller data population. Nobody is weighting these salaries to produce a true mean, DOK, and it's ridiculous to toss out a figure as an average when it's not even a true mean.
Yes, and this is why I threw out median salary.

Methinks the "Compensation handbook for Church Staff" which is published to show pastors are modest wouldn't just use a raw mean that's skewed by outliers. When figures like median are readily available (the figure I used) that's what they'd use.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Really? Should be easy to calculate that obvious value then. What should we use? Local Tax Appraisals? Ummm maybe a real estate appraisal. That would probably work. Maybe it's time to start a new business.

That sounds a lot more reasonable than automatically valuing free housing at $0 of compensation.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yes, and this is why I threw out median salary.

Methinks the "Compensation handbook for Church Staff" which is published to show pastors are modest wouldn't just use a raw mean that's skewed by outliers. When figures like median are readily available (the figure I used) that's what they'd use.
I'm not even championing their data. I presented it only as a contrast to salary.com.
The point being made was, the median you posted is useless.

[TeyshaBlue]

That sounds a lot more reasonable than automatically valuing free housing at $0 of compensation.

I'm sure there's a method. But they don't bother to describe it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm not even championing their data. I presented it only as a contrast to salary.com.
The point being made was, the median you posted is useless.

You posted something that had a compensation figure pretty close to the salary.com figure. That somehow contrasted salary.com, sorry salary.com thinks free housing is compensation.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not sure a median figure is meaningful in any approach to this.

[TeyshaBlue]

You posted something that had a compensation figure pretty close to the salary.com figure. That somehow contrasted salary.com, sorry salary.com thinks free housing is compensation.

No. The range was quite a bit broader. The cite I posted unveiled a data set that salary.com didn't identify. It's also a huge potential well for the Haggee/Jeffries population. In that subset, it's a skew engine.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm sure there's a method. But they don't bother to describe it.

The IRS's method is making it tax exempt and not treating is as compensation, which is why I have a strong opinion on this. The signing bonus I'm getting from the bank I signed an offer with so when I move to a new city I can afford to rent a place and furnish it shouldn't count as compensation if the housing pastors get doesn't.

[TeyshaBlue]

The IRS's method is making it tax exempt and not treating is as compensation, which is why I have a strong opinion on this. The signing bonus I'm getting from the bank I signed an offer with so when I move to a new city I can afford to rent a place and furnish it shouldn't count as compensation if the housing pastors get doesn't.

Agreed, totally.

[RandomGuy]

I am watching a film called Into The Abyss which is a doco about two blokes on death row.

One of them says he has repented for his sins and he's going to heaven. What I don't understand is that christianity forgives anything you've done if you repent before death.... can anyone explain to me why this religion makes it so if a person who murders multiple people (or whatever) but repents its fine.. but if you are not religious you will go to hell even if you're a good person

Because not being religious or buying into the thing would threaten the existance of the religion itself. The priests and organized church that set the doctrine more than a millennium ago knew this.

Part and parcel of most religious belief systems, is that they save their worst penalties for those who don't believe or doubt the dogma.

[2centsworth]

Giving money away because you think it's what's required to get into heaven isn't being charitable, it's making an investment. You're investing money to improve your standard of living in the afterlife. It's not different than making an IRA contribution. Real charity is donating money without expecting anything in return.

how do you know so much about what motivates people to be charitable?

[RandomGuy]

Personally, does it even matter?

Not really. An infinitesimally small percentage of the overall working population seems to make more[ than $60k-$80k /year].

That's it.

Income Distribution in the United States in 1992
http://www.gumption.org/1993/memo/landmarks/us_income.gif



$1.00 in 1992 had the same buying power as $1.66 in 2013.

Annual inflation over this period was 2.46%.
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm


50% mark at roughly $22,000 in 1992.

1.66*22,000= $36,520


To most people "infinitesimally small percentage" is generally less than 50%, FYI.

[RandomGuy]

The IRS's method is making it tax exempt and not treating is as compensation, which is why I have a strong opinion on this. The signing bonus I'm getting from the bank I signed an offer with so when I move to a new city I can afford to rent a place and furnish it shouldn't count as compensation if the housing pastors get doesn't.

I would agree. Church income should be taxed, like any other business. The Germans have it right.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I would agree. Church income should be taxed, like any other business. The Germans have it right.

Well Germany isn't filled with people over-obsessed with religion and sentimental bullshit, so it's no surprise their tax system actually taxes income.

No one makes the connection, but it's also why Germany and other secular countries don't believe in faith-based economics (what Republicans refer call "supply side economics"), aka the belief that cutting the amount of money rich people (who Republicans refer to as "job creators") have to pay to the government will somehow increase the amount of government revenue (because that makes completely logical sense). Religion is the root of why Americans believe so many illogical things compared to other 1st world countries.

[ploto]

Religious states are also the unhappiest


Maybe unhappy people turn to religion for comfort.

As for the OP whose question I believe was sincere (although I can not see it), the basic premise is that all people make mistakes and all people need the forgiveness of God. If you do not think that God exists, then that makes no sense to you. If you think that people can be "good enough" and other people are simply "too bad," then that makes no sense to you. If you worry about your own shortcomings and focus on your own need for grace, then the rest does not really concern you. That is up to God to determine the sincerity of one's repentance.

[boutons_deux]

Maybe unhappy people turn to religion for comfort.

well. they apparently turn to religion but still are great clients of BigPharma pushers.

[TeyshaBlue]

Income Distribution in the United States in 1992
http://www.gumption.org/1993/memo/landmarks/us_income.gif




50% mark at roughly $22,000 in 1992.

1.66*22,000= $36,520


To most people "infinitesimally small percentage" is generally less than 50%, FYI.

I was referencing the sub population of pastors > avg american salary. That is an incredibly small data set, Capt. Graph.

[TeyshaBlue]

Add additionally snarky post here.

[ploto]

... but still are great clients of BigPharma pushers.

Something about which we do agree.

[DMC]

The mercy is that he paid the price for all of us. You have to do nothing except accept humble yourself and realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus as Lord. That's my belief, but you are totally free to believe something else. At the end of the day you may be right, but I personally believe otherwise.

Who did it pay it to? Is there a law that even God has to abide by? Why pay himself so you don't have to? Go ahead, make some father, son analogy so I can shoot it down.

[Woo Bum-kon]

I don't know why I should feel appreciative because somebody allegedly sacrificed himself unnecessarily to solve a problem that he caused.

[2centsworth]

Who did it pay it to? Is there a law that even God has to abide by? Why pay himself so you don't have to? Go ahead, make some father, son analogy so I can shoot it down.

not exactly sure what ur rhetorically asking, but ill give it a shot.
God the father, as judge of his law, must punish sinners or he would be an unjust God. Since not one is sinless, we all deserve punishment. Since God is Merciful, he sent a perfect sacrifice named Jesus to pay the price for all sins for those
Who accept it. The gift is free to any and all.

thats my faith in a nutshell, but don't mistake my post as trying to convert you or anyone else. Totally not my job or concern. I post cuz someone asked. Conversion is up to God and I have faith that he doesn't need me.

as far as maybe me being closed minded, ill admit I am cuz I've had way too many miracles happen in my life to tthink that God doesn't exist.

[Woo Bum-kon]

^ No, you didn't. And Jesus' sacrifice was completely illogical and unnecessary.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Oh, the ol' narcissistic "Every time something good happens, it's obviously a miracle because god loves me and has a vested interest in seeing me thrive!" Christian attitude.

[spursncowboys]

not exactly sure what ur rhetorically asking, but ill give it a shot.
God the father, as judge of his law, must punish sinners or he would be an unjust God. Since not one is sinless, we all deserve punishment. Since God is Merciful, he sent a perfect sacrifice named Jesus to pay the price for all sins for those
Who accept it. The gift is free to any and all.

thats my faith in a nutshell, but don't mistake my post as trying to convert you or anyone else. Totally not my job or concern. I post cuz someone asked. Conversion is up to God and I have faith that he doesn't need me.

as far as maybe me being closed minded, ill admit I am cuz I've had way too many miracles happen in my life to tthink that God doesn't exist.

What I don't get is why these atheists are so set on stating reasons why God (who they don't believe in) forgives some things and not others. Most christians talk about God, and always include that we are man, destined to sin. So why bring up all the people who sinned in God's name? Why spend time trying to attack someone's personal beliefs? But then in another OP, state how the government should take from the rich to give to the poor, for charity...

Atheism is based on faith as well.

Christians try and convert people because they want to help them. Regardless if it's real. Jesus' basic principles are a pretty good way to live.

Atheists try and disprove religion why...To show how superior you are? What is to gain.

:lol attacking pastors who make money to pay bills. How dare he/she...

[Woo Bum-kon]

Atheism is based on faith as well.

:lmao I heard this cliche a million times. Care to explain?


Christians try and convert people because they want to help them. Regardless if it's real. Jesus' basic principles are a pretty good way to live.

No, they aren't.

[baseline bum]

Atheism is based on faith as well.

:lmao I heard this cliche a million times. Care to explain?


The explanation is basically equivalent to calling it faith when one says there probably is no three-dicked purple unicorn jerking himself off on the Martian polar icecap.

[spursncowboys]

No, they aren't.
Which ones exactly aren't?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao I heard this cliche a million times. Care to explain?


It's just another example of Christians saying that being in the negative is just as faith based as believing in the positive.

By their logic, believing the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist is faith based :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

During the Crusades were Christians trying to help when they murdered anyone who didn't convert?

[Woo Bum-kon]

Which ones exactly aren't?

Why won't you answer my question about faith?

Jesus thinks that people who think about sinning have sinned, so he is the thought police. He also supports the Old Testament's teachings, which makes him pro-slavery.

[spursncowboys]

During the Crusades were Christians trying to help when they murdered anyone who didn't convert?

:lmao What does that mean? Should they have been Muslims? Would you rather they had not fought lands taken over by Muslims? Would you have rather the Atheists Mongols take over?

Why incorporate your norms into the Dark Ages? If you're honestly not doing normal childish troll work...But I don't think you know how to do that.

[Woo Bum-kon]

Didn't crusaders ransack Christian cities, too?

[spursncowboys]

Why won't you answer my question about faith?

Jesus thinks that people who think about sinning have sinned, so he is the thought police. He also supports the Old Testament's teachings, which makes him pro-slavery.

You have no idea what you are talking about...He didn't support the Old Testament. Look if you honestly want to know about christianity, look into it and not just segments that might help your arguments.

[spursncowboys]

FTR I'm not catholic and don't believe in praying through Saints and Angels...

[Woo Bum-kon]

lol retard
lol Christians who disregard parts of the Bible they don't agree with
lol still dodging the faith question

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20

[spursncowboys]

lol retard
lol Christians who disregard parts of the Bible they don't agree with
lol still dodging the faith question

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20
...ok...now read it again

[Woo Bum-kon]

Cool non-response. Are you ever planning to address my points? Jesus clearly instructed people NOT to disregard the Old Testament.

I don't even understand how a Christian pretend that the OT doesn't exist (or, at least, the parts they don't agree with). Is the Bible not the word of God? Why would any of God's laws be obsolete?

[spursncowboys]

Cool non-response. Are you ever planning to address my points? Jesus clearly instructed people NOT to disregard the Old Testament.

I don't even understand how a Christian pretend that the OT doesn't exist (or, at least, the parts they don't agree with). Is the Bible not the word of God? Why would any of God's laws be obsolete?

No...The OT isn't disregarded. Dude just do some reading... Good luck

[Woo Bum-kon]

No...The OT isn't disregarded. Dude just do some reading... Good luck

Then how isn't Jesus pro-slavery, then? Are you ever going to address my points? Or will you keep giving vague non-answers?

[Woo Bum-kon]

*crickets* Kind of pathetic that spursncowboys wants me to make his argument for him.

[silverblk mystix]

*crickets* Kind of pathetic that spursncowboys wants me to make his argument for him.


Dude, you are heavily brainwashed and stupid. Just drop it before you look like even more of an ass.

[Woo Bum-kon]

I see you are still misusing the word "brainwash."

[DMC]

not exactly sure what ur rhetorically asking, but ill give it a shot.
God the father, as judge of his law, must punish sinners or he would be an unjust God. Since not one is sinless, we all deserve punishment. Since God is Merciful, he sent a perfect sacrifice named Jesus to pay the price for all sins for those
Who accept it. The gift is free to any and all.

thats my faith in a nutshell, but don't mistake my post as trying to convert you or anyone else. Totally not my job or concern. I post cuz someone asked. Conversion is up to God and I have faith that he doesn't need me.

as far as maybe me being closed minded, ill admit I am cuz I've had way too many miracles happen in my life to tthink that God doesn't exist.

Is there a "Just" standard apart from God that God is held to? How can you say God had to do something to appease himself, but then sent himself to not actually die (live eternally) so his justness is saved in the eyes of man while giving man a "get out of jail free" card? All this because man isn't fit to live with this God, who created man in his own image but who couldn't get along with his own partner (Lucifer) as he didn't want to share any power, and 33% of the workforce agreed and setup shop with Lucifer, and now Lucifer is recruiting more good workers than God could because God is a government agency while Lucifer operates in the private sector, where profit is instant and it's an "at will" state.

[Blake]

not exactly sure what ur rhetorically asking, but ill give it a shot.
God the father, as judge of his law, must punish sinners or he would be an unjust God.

He's basically asking for some logic in this belief system.

You're saying that God made the rules, including eternal damnation for non-belief......but he's a loving, merciful God?

Do you really not see the countless flaws in this or are you choosing to ignore them?

[Blake]

Christians try and convert people because they want to help them. Regardless if it's real. Jesus' basic principles are a pretty good way to live.

Atheists try and disprove religion why...To show how superior you are? What is to gain.

Christians attack gays and abortion.

I want Christians to prove Christianity or get the fuck out of politics.