Pope says you can be saved too....just be good...

[Nbadan]

Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.


LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.


Read more: http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Comment from the comments section at the link....

It is important to understand that there is a distinction between reedemtion and salvation.
God did die for all of humanity however we must still choose God for salvation as an individule.
Here is a great comment I found on the subject.


"Basically, redemption is collective and salvation is individual. By his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment mankind -- as a whole -- owed due to sin. Each and every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race.

Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. Although a member of redeemed humanity, and therefore himself redeemed, a person can freely choose to deliberately reject the graces won for him by Christ and go to hell."

[TDMVPDPOY]

does this apply to priest pedofiles?

[Nbadan]

they get a rock...

[baseline bum]

That's comforting to hear that I'm granted access to his made-up fantasy land right after I survive my own death.

[BradLohaus]

Why does Catholicism get all the blame for the pedophiles but homosexuality gets none?

[Woo Bum-kon]

If I don't do good, what happens when I die, Dan?

[The Reckoning]

now they need to allow contraceptives, priests to marry and women be allowed in the clergy.

[scott]

Atheist sniping aside (and I myself am one), this is a pretty significant turn of events, and it establishes a belief among Catholic leaders that deeds are greater than faith, which flies right into the face of evangelical Christians whose beliefs are quite the opposite.

Cue the far rights attacking the Pope in 3... 2... 1...

[boutons_deux]

Colbert: If atheists can go to heaven, I want my Catholicism refunded
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Colbert-on-atheists-and-the-Pope-615x345.png

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/24/colbert-if-atheists-can-go-to-heaven-i-want-my-catholicism-refunded/

[LnGrrrR]

This pope is awesome.

[angrydude]

watering down the brand tbh

[baseline bum]

watering down the brand tbh

Next thing we'll find out he doesn't even jerk his altar boys off.

[spursncowboys]

Atheist sniping aside (and I myself am one), this is a pretty significant turn of events, and it establishes a belief among Catholic leaders that deeds are greater than faith, which flies right into the face of evangelical Christians whose beliefs are quite the opposite.

Cue the far rights attacking the Pope in 3... 2... 1...
when you say evangelical christians are you referring to southern bapt'ists? I'm not really sure which church you mean. If you mean non-catholics, which alot of people do, when they say evangelical, then I strongly doubt that. I guess it went better with your ending to have the term 'far right'.
From a catholic friend, this is nothing new. It was always like this.

Jesus said through him is the only way. So maybe if people were living the way he preached, but without knowing. IDK. Good topic. Very thought provoking.

Some people on this forum seem so insecure in their beliefs, they rather attack others. Why not just explain your own belief, than show how others are flawed? Then again showing courage showing courage by putting yourself out there like that doesn't seem likely with all the time they spend attacking the ones who do.

[boutons_deux]

evangelism seems to have as many flavors and definitions as Christianity itself, as a Google search shows.

I suppose if you asked 10 people, you'd get 10 different answers, emphases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism

What I find hilarious and ridiculous is that these "Christians" are not obsessed with The Good News of the New Testament, which is soft, loving, inclusive, peaceful, NON-VIOLENT (except for JC going ape-shit on those motherfucking moneychangers in the Temple (money men are ALWAYS motherfuckers, but Christians pervert that into "If you have lotsa money, it's because God loves you) ) but obsessed with the crazy-ass, vengeful, punitive, racist, genocidal, excluding, violent, pissed-off God of the Old Testament.

"Jesus said through him is the only way"

He's got no patent on that. Allah and all the religious worldviews have exactly the same exclusiveness, which is nothing but a fear-mongering recruiting tactic. "My Way or the Hell Way"

[Woo Bum-kon]

Some people on this forum seem so insecure in their beliefs, they rather attack others. Why not just explain your own belief, than show how others are flawed? Then again showing courage showing courage by putting yourself out there like that doesn't seem likely with all the time they spend attacking the ones who do.

Hiding behind faith, like most Christians on here, is bigger showing of insecurity than anything I could do.

[DMC]

Just more pandering by Roarke of Fantasy Island. The NT says you only come to the father through the son. It does not say if you do good deeds you'll get to heaven. You only get there through the grace of god, not because you're good. You're told over and over you are intrinsically bad, but the god ignores that if you know the right codes.

[DMC]

Atheist sniping aside (and I myself am one), this is a pretty significant turn of events, and it establishes a belief among Catholic leaders that deeds are greater than faith, which flies right into the face of evangelical Christians whose beliefs are quite the opposite.

Cue the far rights attacking the Pope in 3... 2... 1...
Why? It doesn't matter what the Pope says. The Bible is there for all to read. If the Pope said screwing 12 year old boys was God's will, should Catholics suddenly feel it's ok?

Religion is such a farce, the world is fucked.

[MannyIsGod]

Not sure why anyone thinks this is new. This is what I was always taught growing up as a catholic. Catholics do not believe that there are a chosen people who are going to be saved. They believe Jesus died for everyone. This - AFAIK - is what ALL Christians believe.

[boutons_deux]

Not sure why anyone thinks this is new. This is what I was always taught growing up as a catholic. Catholics do not believe that there are a chosen people who are going to be saved. They believe Jesus died for everyone. This - AFAIK - is what ALL Christians believe.

I was taught there is NO SALVATION for anyone outside of the Catholic Church. Even Catholics who weren't baptized got stuck in limbo, but apparently limbo has been cancelled, no sure what happened to all the limbo inhabitants.

"Jesus Died For Our Sins" WTH as anyone supposed to due with that, other that haul around for life a guilt comple.

100Ks died for dubya/dickhead's sins, and those two live on in wealthy, guilt-free retirement.

[DMC]

Not sure why anyone thinks this is new. This is what I was always taught growing up as a catholic. Catholics do not believe that there are a chosen people who are going to be saved. They believe Jesus died for everyone. This - AFAIK - is what ALL Christians believe.

It's not. The passage "some fell by the wayside" is a big deal to some Christians. John 3:16 is huge for them, and the "anyone that believes in him shall not perish" doesn't mean anyone who believes he existed or anyone who does good to others. It's about your relationship with Jesus, not about your relationship with man. Regardless, it's mostly, in almost every denom, about the grace of God. You don't deserve it, so why go out and try to earn what you cannot ever deserve? You are given it freely. You just have to accept it. Nothing there about being a good person.

[MannyIsGod]

You guys are both misunderstanding. The Pope did not say everyone was saved. He said salvation was available to everyone as Jesus died for everyone. Obviously every church believes you still have to buy into their teachings - the Catholic church and the Pope are both included - but you still have that opportunity.

[redzero]

The entire ideas of heaven and hell are pants-on-head retarded, like everything else in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.

[spursncowboys]

You guys are both misunderstanding. The Pope did not say everyone was saved. He said salvation was available to everyone as Jesus died for everyone. Obviously every church believes you still have to buy into their teachings - the Catholic church and the Pope are both included - but you still have that opportunity.
I've never been to a church that states the way to heaven is through their doctrine and teachings. Then again I've always went to Non-denominations.

[spursncowboys]

The entire ideas of heaven and hell are pants-on-head retarded, like everything else in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
Very thought provoking.

[redzero]

Very thought provoking.

If you thought about it, you wouldn't be a Christian.

[spursncowboys]

If you thought about it, you wouldn't be a Christian.
:troll

[redzero]

Nice retort. Mind telling me why I should have to do good works to get into heaven when God doesn't do good works?

I can't wait for your next non-answer response, which just reaffirms the point I made in the post you quoted.

[spursncowboys]

Why don't you defend your original comment about why believing in a heaven and hell is retarded and to question anything negates your membership in the Christian crew.

[redzero]

I am doing that right now with the point I just made, not-so-smart Christian.

[redzero]

*crickets*

[DMC]

I've never been to a church that states the way to heaven is through their doctrine and teachings. Then again I've always went to Non-denominations.

The most plausible of all possibilities is that there is no god, and that man made all of this up. The alternative is to believe there is a god (or gods) and that everyone save a select few have it wrong, and you just happened to be born in a region where they had it right.

[DMC]

Nice retort. Mind telling me why I should have to do good works to get into heaven when God doesn't do good works?

I can't wait for your next non-answer response, which just reaffirms the point I made in the post you quoted.

I'm atheist and I can answer that. The Bible doesn't state that you have to do good works to enter into heaven. It just hints that, if you're right with God, you will do good works because you will be inspired to. You'll be known by your fruits, and those are the good deeds you do and how you conduct your life. It's not that you'll be known because of them, but that you'll be known BY them, meaning that the good works are a marker that you are a born again Christian. That and a fish symbol on your Lexus SUV.

[redzero]

The why is the problem. Why would doing good works be a result of following God? I'm not really expecting you to answer that, since you don't believe it anyway. The Bible is explicit in its stance that people get eternal salvation through belief in God, so the Christians who do believe that non-believers can get into heaven are going against their holy book yet again.

I was also planning on talking about the problem of evil, if snc ever responds.

[SnakeBoy]

Mind telling me why I should have to do good works to get into heaven when God doesn't do good works?


Probably the dumbest question I've seen in a while.

[redzero]

Probably the dumbest question I've seen in a while.

Explain, please.

[Jacob1983]

I have been recently told that God isn't Santa Claus.

[baseline bum]

The most plausible of all possibilities is that there is no god, and that man made all of this up. The alternative is to believe there is a god (or gods) and that everyone save a select few have it wrong, and you just happened to be born in a region where they had it right.

DMC pulling Dawkins out on snc. :tu

[spursncowboys]

The most plausible of all possibilities is that there is no god, and that man made all of this up. If someone lives their life as though they thought Jesus would have wanted them to, and it turned out nothing happened. Everything goes black and said person is gone: So what? They still did more for their fellow man than if not. Also IMO it is a more plausible idea that there was some kind of intelligent design. I don't mean a verbatum account through the bible. I mean looking at all this world's intricacies and extremely perfectly created animals, plants, eco systems, emotions, etc.


The alternative is to believe there is a god (or gods) and that everyone save a select few have it wrong, and you just happened to be born in a region where they had it right.
I don't know what you mean by this. There are Christians in every country and in every language.

[spursncowboys]

DMC pulling Dawkins out on snc. :tu
Dawkins believes there is intelligent design just that it was aliens.

[baseline bum]

Dawkins believes there is intelligent design just that it was aliens.

:lol

[SnakeBoy]

Explain, please.

...because your asking why an omnipotent being doesn't have to follow the same rules as you. It's not about whether you believe or not, it's just that most people figure this type of shit out by age 6 when they keep getting the answer "because I said so" from their parents.

[spursncowboys]

Atheists Are Still Going to Hell, Says Vatican Spokesmanhttp://www.christianpost.com/news/atheists-are-still-going-to-hell-says-vatican-spokesman-96734/

[ElNono]

Atheists Are Still Going to Hell, Says Vatican Spokesmanhttp://www.christianpost.com/news/atheists-are-still-going-to-hell-says-vatican-spokesman-96734/

Rosica fucked it up...

The Pope said what he said because strategically it makes sense: it's an all-inclusive message, which invites non-christians to have another look at the church. This is especially important at this time, since the church is losing power and becoming more and more irrelevant. The polarizing, exclusive, members-only message is what made the church head in the declining direction it's been going.

[GoodOdor]

lol religion.

[boutons_deux]

Atheists Are Still Going to Hell, Says Vatican Spokesman

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheists-are-still-going-to-hell-says-vatican-spokesman-96734/

Vatican spokesman? That's about as credible, reliable, non-political, truthful as a White House spokesman :lol

I read an article where the Vatican is going nuts trying to keep up with the new Pope's sayings and walkaround, much like any political organization "walking back" "mis-speakings" of a professional politician.

All Religions are fundamentally, overwhelmingly political, with initiations, rules, behavior mandates for inclusion for or exclusion from their group. And of course, they absolutely must emphasize differences with, be in opposition to, and denigrate other Religions to justify their own Religion as exclusive The One True Way.

And isn't it weird how leaders, organizations, local churches of these Religions become fantastically wealthy? :lol

[redzero]

...because your asking why an omnipotent being doesn't have to follow the same rules as you. It's not about whether you believe or not, it's just that most people figure this type of shit out by age 6 when they keep getting the answer "because I said so" from their parents.

Which is a stupid fucking answer. We should just do what God tells us to do just because?

And how is my question stupid again?

[redzero]

Also IMO it is a more plausible idea that there was some kind of intelligent design. I don't mean a verbatum account through the bible. I mean looking at all this world's intricacies and extremely perfectly created animals, plants, eco systems, emotions, etc.

God is more complicated. Did somebody design him?

[spursncowboys]

Rosica fucked it up...

The Pope said what he said because strategically it makes sense: it's an all-inclusive message, which invites non-christians to have another look at the church. This is especially important at this time, since the church is losing power and becoming more and more irrelevant. The polarizing, exclusive, members-only message is what made the church head in the declining direction it's been going.

Agreed

[spursncowboys]

God is more complicated. Did somebody design him?
Xenu

[redzero]

Xenu

Great! Thanks for all the insightful non-answers you provided in this thread!

[The Reckoning]

Church should see the amount of positive feedback and roll with it. Theyl'll further alienate their non-base if they retract the statement.

I can't wait until the Cold War generation is out.

[boutons_deux]

Church should see the amount of positive feedback and roll with it. Theyl'll further alienate their non-base if they retract the statement.

I can't wait until the Cold War generation is out.

Much of US/European Catholic base is already alienated: use artificial birth control, support/are divorced, support abortion, support female priests, support married priests, etc, etc.

[DMC]

If someone lives their life as though they thought Jesus would have wanted them to, and it turned out nothing happened. Everything goes black and said person is gone: So what? They still did more for their fellow man than if not. Also IMO it is a more plausible idea that there was some kind of intelligent design. I don't mean a verbatum account through the bible. I mean looking at all this world's intricacies and extremely perfectly created animals, plants, eco systems, emotions, etc.

So if you lived your life believing a lie, so what? You wasted your life. The same is true for any religion. Why does it matter what you believe?

The watchmaker theory has been debunked so handily it need not be rehashed here. I will just say that, if the awe inspiring intricacies of your world lead to you posit the existence of a creator, then the awesomeness of that creator must lead you to posit an even greater creator. Otherwise you're using a double standard, and just stopping the infinite regress where it's most convenient and most comfortable for your belief system.


I don't know what you mean by this. There are Christians in every country and in every language.
The odds are you were born into a Christian household, and as such you are yourself Christian. The odds are you were not born in a predominately Muslim country. So then, again, the odds were on your side that you hit the jackpot in getting the right religion right away.

Once again, so convenient.

[DMC]

Dawkins believes there is intelligent design just that it was aliens.

I think Dawkins allows for it, belief is too strong a word for atheists to throw around so freely.

[spursncowboys]

I think Dawkins allows for it, belief is too strong a word for atheists to throw around so freely.
touche

[spursncowboys]

So if you lived your life believing a lie, so what? You wasted your life. The same is true for any religion. Why does it matter what you believe? Ok. Except not all religions are the same. Jefferson credits jesus with everything he got in life by following his teachings. He didn't believe in any miracles or 'god-like' actions, but went by his teachings.


The watchmaker theory has been debunked so handily it need not be rehashed here. I will just say that, if the awe inspiring intricacies of your world lead to you posit the existence of a creator, then the awesomeness of that creator must lead you to posit an even greater creator. Otherwise you're using a double standard, and just stopping the infinite regress where it's most convenient and most comfortable for your belief system. ??? Look you know a small amount of myself, and therefor cannot create this expansive cause and effect system. You are also changing my meaning of the posts and turning this into something its not.


The odds are you were born into a Christian household, and as such you are yourself Christian. The odds are you were not born in a predominately Muslim country. So then, again, the odds were on your side that you hit the jackpot in getting the right religion right away.

Once again, so convenient. No. Religion was not talked about, nor jesus. My grandma made me watch jesus christ super star when I was a kid and that was the most as far as religion they pushed on me. She said the songs were really nice, though.

[DMC]

Ok. Except not all religions are the same. Jefferson credits jesus with everything he got in life by following his teachings. He didn't believe in any miracles or 'god-like' actions, but went by his teachings.

There's a difference between following a common moral/ethical code of conduct and believing a god exists.


??? Look you know a small amount of myself, and therefor cannot create this expansive cause and effect system. You are also changing my meaning of the posts and turning this into something its not.
No. Religion was not talked about, nor jesus. My grandma made me watch jesus christ super star when I was a kid and that was the most as far as religion they pushed on me. She said the songs were really nice, though.
My point remains, the odds of believing in the Christian god are much greater in the US than in predominately Islamic countries, and vice versa. The reality or non-reality of a god doesn't change based on the continent in which you are born.

So, the most probable solution is that no god or gods exist, whether or not you choose to act like one does.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If the Pope said screwing 12 year old boys was God's will, should Catholics suddenly feel it's ok?

Well that is kinda what happened the way Catholics did everything they collectively could to cover up the molesting of 12 year old boys.

[redzero]

Ok. Except not all religions are the same. Jefferson credits jesus with everything he got in life by following his teachings. He didn't believe in any miracles or 'god-like' actions, but went by his teachings.

Great point. He also kept slaves, which would be consistent with Jesus' teachings.

[baseline bum]

Great point. He also kept slaves, which would be consistent with Jesus' teachings.

:rollin

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Here are actual quotes from Thomas Jefferson rather than jeebotard revisionist history about Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

[spursncowboys]

Here are actual quotes from Thomas Jefferson rather than jeebotard revisionist history about Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."
ugh ok...Thanks for the assist.

[spursncowboys]

Great point. He also kept slaves, which would be consistent with Jesus' teachings.
Jesus kept slaves?

[rascal]

The most plausible of all possibilities is that there is no god, and that man made all of this up. The alternative is to believe there is a god (or gods) and that everyone save a select few have it wrong, and you just happened to be born in a region where they had it right.

no God is not plausible. Life developed out of thin air is plausible to you?


No one religion has it all right. Meanings in the Bible were misinterpreted by the translations through the years. that Jesus is the only way that Protestents harp on is one thing they misinterpret, the true meaning of that passage is the teachings of Jesus which most religions do in one form or another.

[rascal]

It is worthless and a waste of time to discuss religion with a bunch of atheists who think they are so smart and think it is cool to be an atheist.

Everyone believes what they want and goes down their own road anyways.

[Blake]

no God is not plausible. Life developed out of thin air is plausible to you?


how did God develop?

[Blake]

It is worthless and a waste of time to discuss religion with a bunch of atheists who think they are so smart and think it is cool to be an atheist.

Everyone believes what they want and goes down their own road anyways.

If you're here trying to win e-battles, then yeah, you're wasting time. A better use of your time would be to rigorously scrutinize your belief system and hold it to high standards of logic and reasoning.

But it's clear you'd rather take the easy road like many Phenomanuls before you.

Adios.

[spursncowboys]

If you're here trying to win e-battles, then yeah, you're wasting time. A better use of your time would be to rigorously scrutinize your belief system and hold it to high standards of logic and reasoning.

But it's clear you'd rather take the easy road like many Phenomanuls before you.

Adios.Aren't you the one trying to get into e-scuffles? e-fist-a-cuffs? Trying to build your e-cred? keep it e-100%? impress the e-ladies?

[Blake]

Aren't you the one trying to get into e-scuffles? e-fist-a-cuffs? Trying to build your e-cred? keep it e-100%? impress the e-ladies?

yes, yes, no, wut and I wouldn't fuck the spurstalk e-ladies using your e-dick

[redzero]

Jesus kept slaves?

You can't read too well. Not surprising.

[spursncowboys]

You can't read too well. Not surprising.
So Jesus taught to keep slaves?

[redzero]

So Jesus taught to keep slaves?

He taught to follow the laws of the Old Testament, which allowed slavery.

[Blake]

So Jesus taught to keep slaves?

He sure had plenty of opportunities to condemn slavery.

So did Paul.

[spursncowboys]

He sure had plenty of opportunities to condemn slavery. If you read the new testament, I don't see how you could leave with that assertion


So did Paul.
:lol You mean Peter? The one who did not fight false imprisonment, until he was rescued by an angel. The one who was crucified upside down.

[spursncowboys]

He taught to follow the laws of the Old Testament, which allowed slavery.
So then he taught eye for an eye, like what the old testament taught right?

[Blake]

If you read the new testament, I don't see how you could leave with that assertion

Did Jesus ever once denounce slavery?



:lol You mean Peter? The one who did not fight false imprisonment, until he was rescued by an angel. The one who was crucified upside down.

No, I mean Paul.

We're not talking about false imprisonment. We're talking about slavery.

[DMC]

no God is not plausible. Life developed out of thin air is plausible to you?

More plausible than God developed out of thin air, especially when you consider that you cannot even show me a god, but I can show you both thin air and life.


No one religion has it all right. Meanings in the Bible were misinterpreted by the translations through the years. that Jesus is the only way that Protestents harp on is one thing they misinterpret, the true meaning of that passage is the teachings of Jesus which most religions do in one form or another.
Which means no one knows, which means the concept of no god is more plausible than the concept of one or more gods. You all have it wrong, that's more likely than thinking one of you has it right. There's no compelling evidence to suggest otherwise, and your "stuff seems awesome" excuse doesn't make a god more likely, it just makes you more susceptible to accepting such an absurd suggestion.

[DMC]

It is worthless and a waste of time to discuss religion with a bunch of atheists who think they are so smart and think it is cool to be an atheist.

Everyone believes what they want and goes down their own road anyways.

If you genuinely think belief is a choice, then you're not on the same epistemological page as I, because I think belief is compelled. If belief is a choice, then so is disbelief. Can you choose to not believe the Sun exists? If you say no, why not? Isn't it a choice?

I can no sooner choose to not believe in a god than you can choose to not believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. It's belief that's compelled, non-belief is a default position. Even babies are atheist.

[spursncowboys]

Did Jesus ever once denounce slavery?



No, I mean Paul.

We're not talking about false imprisonment. We're talking about slavery. :smh
Paul states to treat your slave as your son, where Peter stated to treat as your brother. Pro-slavery? I don't think so.
We are talking about false imprisonment as slavery since you are using indentured servitude as a form of slavery.

[spursncowboys]

Did Jesus ever once denounce slavery?




. In a sense yes. SInce Jesus went for the lowest groups, from tax collectors to whores. . Since it was the first religion who allowed any person from any culture to join. Because the teachings are that the real prize is heaven,

[spursncowboys]

More plausible than God developed out of thin air, especially when you consider that you cannot even show me a god, but I can show you both thin air and life.

But it's pure belief. You're disguising it with the idea of logic. Thin air and life are not seperate from god, or the idea.

[DMC]

But it's pure belief. You're disguising it with the idea of logic. Thin air and life are not seperate from god, or the idea.

You're suggesting the idea of belief in a god is irrational. I would tend to agree. However, belief only comes in the pure form, else it's not belief. You're basically attempting to separate theist hope from epistemological belief (based on knowledge). Hope is not belief. Belief is compelled. You can equivocate the term with some bastardized version and that might get you through from a really warped apologetic standpoint, however in no sense is hope and belief one and the same. The only way a rational mind can form a belief is to be compelled to form that belief. Kids do it all the time with newly introduced stimuli like sticking their fingers into a light socket. They suddenly believe that light socket will shock them, and you cannot talk them out of it. With the god proposition, it's more a a hope developed around a flowery storyline that's been butchered and altered and raped over the centuries to fit the ethos of the time period.

Just the same, your hope in no way equals my beliefs, and I don't hold a hope that a god exists, and I don't hold a belief that a god exists, and at the moment, when all the emotional, charismatic dust settles, that's the most rational position.

[Blake]

:smh
Paul states to treat your slave as your son, where Peter stated to treat as your brother. Pro-slavery? I don't think so.
We are talking about false imprisonment as slavery since you are using indentured servitude as a form of slavery.

So you're saying Paul said to be a kind hearted slave owner. Sounds pro slavery to me.

Of course, if you're not anti-slavery then you're pro slavery.

You have no clue what you're talking about per par.

[spursncowboys]

So you're saying Paul said to be a kind hearted slave owner.

If you're not anti-slavery then you're pro slavery.

You have no clue what you're talking about per par. Says someone who is trying to use a book, he doesn't believe in.
So anyone living in time of slavery who didn't change it was pro-slavery? Even if you died a martyr. Paul did die a martyr trying to change the world.

[spursncowboys]

You need to do some research on what "slavery" was in those times.

[redzero]

Was it forcing one person to work for somebody else?

[Blake]

You need to do some research on what "slavery" was in those times.

Give us your definition of what "slavery" was in those times.

[Blake]

Says someone who is trying to use a book, he doesn't believe in.

that makes no sense



So anyone living in time of slavery who didn't change it was pro-slavery? Even if you died a martyr. Paul did die a martyr trying to change the world.

pro slavery martyr is still pro slavery

[spursncowboys]

that makes no sense



pro slavery martyr is still pro slavery
How is he a pro-slavery martyr?

[spursncowboys]

How is he pro-slavery?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

God's pretty shitty at his job when slavery/indentured servitude/whatever you want to call it to make it sound better was such a prevalent phenomenon during biblical times.

[Blake]

How is he pro-slavery?

Why do I need to repeat myself just a few posts later?

[spursncowboys]

God's pretty shitty at his job when slavery/indentured servitude/whatever you want to call it to make it sound better was such a prevalent phenomenon during biblical times.
Are you saying slavery isn't prevalent nowadays? In atheists govt and dictators?

[spursncowboys]

Why do I need to repeat myself just a few posts later?
Because you make no sense

[Blake]

Because you make no sense

if I thought you were questioning me based on a fallacy of false alternatives, I might further extrapolate.

But I think I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're simply just not educated enough here to keep up and I'm not in the mood to teach.

Sorry, it just is what it is.

[sjacquemotte]

if I thought you were questioning me based on a fallacy of false alternatives, I might further extrapolate.

But I think I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're simply just not educated enough here to keep up and I'm not in the mood to teach.

Sorry, it just is what it is.
:toast
Completely understand. I have you on block and only read your posts if you quote me, since that stupid number on top of the screen drives me nuts.

[Blake]

.... since that stupid number on top of the screen drives me nuts.

So nutty that you had to switch screen names.

weirdo.

[Blake]

.... since that stupid number on top of the screen drives me nuts.

So nutty that you had to switch screen names.

weirdo.

[sjacquemotte]

That's not very nice

[Blake]

That's not very nice

you're not very good at ignoring

[sjacquemotte]

You keep quoting me, champ.

[Blake]

You keep quoting me, champ.

right, chump.

[sjacquemotte]

witty. much like your posts.

[Blake]

witty. much like your posts.

of which you are doing a great job of ignoring