Spurs Sign Manu Ginobili to 2 year/$14 Million Deal

[PingPong]

He speaks Portugese not SpanishLOL

Yeah, I like Argentina, the most southerner brazilian state.
They produce really good meat.
http://i.imgur.com/lBhcr3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NvP9vLu.jpg

[weebo]

lol at thinking 7M is a good deal. The guy is not even playing 25 minutes a game is 36 and injury prone. Which other team would give him this much??

Manu would not be as valuable to another team as he is to the Spurs. He may not be what he was in his better days but he is still a big part of what the Spurs do. His worth is now more on his experience in the system and the leadership he provides.

[DynastySpurs210]

"He's Manu Ginobili"

[kobyz]

as i see it Spurs organization betray their fans, thay gave up on competing next season for making Manu a little richer... they should tell Manu to take 2-4 per year or don't come back, we all know that at his current form he is replaceable, player like Alan Anderson free agent of the raptors i don't know if less good than Manu now days... Fuck!! Fuck Manu! Fuck Spurs!!

[elemento]

Splitter speaks Portuguese son

[Bruno]

Bruno trolling :lol

Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.

[timvp]

Bruno trolling :lol

Bruno is telling the truth, tbh.

[ElNono]

That's where I'm at. I think the deal stinks, and I'm just left hoping that he finds the same "second wind" in his career that Timmy experienced last year. Because one thing is clear...there is no one on this roster as it's currently constituted to take Manu's role away from him. Spurs second unit is going to live and die by Manu.

God help us. I'll be praying (in vein?) for a re-energized, healthy Manu.

You're caught up in a moment... there's still time to find some other piece out there...

[romain.star]

see Tim Duncan. quality. Manu is not quality, consistently.

Yep and Manu is not a top 10 player ever, nothing new here. But still, if healthy (and that's a big if), Manu will be fine as a veteran leader coming off the bench. One should not judge a player based on 7 games...

[monkeypunk]

Yeah. People are always talking about how we need a new back up PG but we already have one in Cory. Just give him some more time to develop and I think he could turn into a very solid part of the rotation. His defense is very promising, and I suspect he's going to work on his offensive game this offseason.

If Joseph spends the summer in Chips garage, maybe he can be productive throughout the year. Instead of just spot minutes here and there. Him and DeColo both need to need to be able to hit the 3 and the midrange consistently.

The FO has to find a way to keep Manu out of the backup pg role in the playoffs. Unless they play him there all year, it throws off the rotations that late in the season and wears Manu out prematurely over the course of the game. I think that's really why he was gassed in the Finals which led to lazy passes / turnovers.

[dallasmaverickslose]

as i see it Spurs organization betray their fans, thay gave up on competing next season for making Manu a little richer... they should tell Manu to take 2-4 per year or don't come back, we all know that at his current form he is replaceable, player like Alan Anderson free agent of the raptors i don't know if less good than Manu now days... Fuck!! Fuck Manu! Fuck Spurs!!

:cry

[ElNono]

Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.


Bruno is telling the truth, tbh.

I understand the "could", but the reality is we don't know what Kirilenko wants at all... we don't even know if he's interested in joining the Spurs...

You throw that out there, and people start thinking there was a legitimate shot at him, and we don't know that.

[AFBlue]

You're caught up in a moment... there's still time to find some other piece out there...

Maybe. The deal, in and of itself, is garbage. If the Spurs make other moves to solidify their roster, and in particular anchor their bench I won't be as critical. But Manu at that cost for the same role and the implications it has to cap flexibility...sucks.

[dallasmaverickslose]

If Joseph spends the summer in Chips garage, maybe he can be productive throughout the year. Instead of just spot minutes here and there. Him and DeColo both need to need to be able to hit the 3 and the midrange consistently.

The FO has to find a way to keep Manu out of the backup pg role in the playoffs. Unless they play him there all year, it throws off the rotations that late in the season and wears Manu out prematurely over the course of the game. I think that's really why he was gassed in the Finals which led to lazy passes / turnovers.

I tend to agree with you here. I think it would be more appropriate at the very least to limit Manu to SG and back-up SF duties. Between Tony, Cory, and Nando, let them work out a solid PG rotation.

[Jwash_1986]

This contract was all about pushing the Spurs over the Cap so they have the Full MLE and LLE like they did last year. Now the Spurs can offer Kirilenko a 4 year 22.5 mil dollar deal and they are still in a position to Sign and trade for Ellis or another playmaker.

This is exactly what the Clippers did. Once they got Paul signed, it pushed them over the cap. They made a trade for Reddick for 7mil a year and just shipped out Bledsoe and picks. The Clips still have the full MLE at this point to sign a player. IMO, this is exactly the route the Spurs are trying to take at this point.
Good point, I don give off into the numbers like that but I like how you broke it down.

[biziofromdowntown]

Terrible deal

[Creation88]

Yep and Manu is not a top 10 player ever, nothing new here. But still, if healthy (and that's a big if), Manu will be fine as a veteran leader coming off the bench. One should not judge a player based on 7 games...

1. he's never been healthy let alone at 36+
2. he sucked all year, not just in the Finals

[rjv]

i'm still wondering which of the FAs out there that would be in the 8 mil range was going to come in here and give us an automatic run to the title

[Doe]

While I'm glad Manu is back, I'm not exactly thrilled with the numbers. Obviously we have no idea whether AK would even sign here, but if he doesn't over the $2 million that went to Manu this would be a disaster. I also don't think any team would pay him $7 million, especially a team that might be rebuilding like Atlanta. He's guaranteed to miss games next year and his game is declining.

[Bruno]

I understand the "could", but the reality is we don't know what Kirilenko wants at all... we don't even know if he's interested in joining the Spurs...

You throw that out there, and people start thinking there was a legitimate shot at him, and we don't know that.

We will see what kind of contract Kirilenko would get but with Ginobili at $5M, Spurs would have been able to offer Kirilenko a contract starting at $8M-$8.5M.

And without using a "could". To me, it's clear that Ginobili getting these extra $2M truly hurt Spurs chances at getting Kirilenko.

[Man In Black]

i'm still wondering which of the FAs out there that would be in the 8 mil range was going to come in here and give us an automatic run to the title

That's the thing with Kirilenko, he finds a way to contribute even if the plays aren't called for him. All those other players people have talked about are bonafide ball stoppers and players who haven't gotten over themselves. I hope Kirilenko will come in for MLE but even if he doesn't, the Spurs team is still a contender.

[TheGreatYacht]

That's where I'm at. I think the deal stinks, and I'm just left hoping that he finds the same "second wind" in his career that Timmy experienced last year. Because one thing is clear...there is no one on this roster as it's currently constituted to take Manu's role away from him. Spurs second unit is going to live and die by Manu.

God help us. I'll be praying (in vein?) for a re-energized, healthy Manu.There wouldn't be any need for you prayers if Manu would have taken less $$$ and not be so greedy.

[spurraider21]

He turned down 10 mil. I'm doubting he takes MLE. I have hope though.

Shit

[ElNono]

We will see what kind of contract Kirilenko would get but with Ginobili at $5M, Spurs would have been able to offer Kirilenko a contract starting at $8M-$8.5M.

And without using a "could". To me, it's clear that Ginobili getting these extra $2M truly hurt Spurs chances at getting Kirilenko.

We don't even know if the Spurs had any chances to begin with. For all we know, AK47 already said no. We don't know. We don't know anything at this point.

[FkLA]

Probably what hes worth, so technically its a fair deal. Still pretty disappointed though, was really hoping he would take one for the team...especially since both Timmy and Tony currently make a lot less than what they should.

[romain.star]

1. he's never been healthy let alone at 36+
2. he sucked all year, not just in the Finals

Be free to hate the guy but with 11.8 pts, 4.6 asts and 3.4 rbds in 23 minutes, I would not say that Manu has sucked all year long

[RD2191]

Livio>AK47 :hat

[SundvoldGino20]

I'm thrilled Manu is back!

[ernest787]

Tony probably makes less than he should but Duncan is fair value. He played above his contract last year but I think the 10 a year is on point for a big

[mountainballer]

wow. just wow.
this team totally overachieved this season, was a just few seconds away from the crown. the fans of 28 teams thankfully take this season. a team is a team. a winning team is the sum of it's parts. anyone who can claim that even a subpar Manu isn't a crucial part of this winning team put a hand up. never change a winning team.
Manu. you think it's a coincidence that his pay cut will turn out as exactly the same percentage that Tim took?
Manu's market value........what a joke if used as an argument. (and bet on it that at least one team will love to offer at least 7M). Manu's value for this team - and remember this is still a winning team - goes far beyond whatever some people think his market value might be.
fair deal. welcome back Manu.

edit. btw. Manu's PER last season was 19.0. any player in this league who delivers that number will get 7M.

[manufan10]

It was all CIA Manu to take the heat off of the Splitter deal. :hat :stirpot:

[romain.star]

We don't even know if the Spurs had any chances to begin with. For all we know, AK47 already said no. We don't know. We don't know anything at this point.

What we know is that the Spurs chances to sign Kirilenko improve with these extra +$2M.

It might not be enough but it can't hurt either

[monkeypunk]

Be free to hate the guy but with 11.8 pts, 4.6 asts and 3.4 rbds in 23 minutes, I would not say that Manu has sucked all year long

Manu was great in limited minutes throughout the year. i said it in another thread but I think he just shit the bed in the finals (caveat - for a few games) when his role changed and he became the backup point. Too much responsibility for those old legs.

[FkLA]

Tony probably makes less than he should but Duncan is fair value. He played above his contract last year but I think the 10 a year is on point for a big

Timmy was first team all-nba. He should be on a max contract or atleast bordering on the max. Same with Tony.

[Johnny RIngo]

Be free to hate the guy but with 11.8 pts, 4.6 asts and 3.4 rbds in 23 minutes, I would not say that Manu has sucked all year long

He had career lows across the board, his advanced stats were terrible, and he missed twenty plus games. He was terrible. The Spurs just buried Duncan with this contract...pathetic. Guarantee that Ginobili won't even suit up for half the games next season.

[Robz4000]

Not gonna lie, the more I sit on this the worse I feel. It was at about market value but let's face it, for the Spurs to get anyone of value to come here they'd have to pay a fair amount more than normal. That extra $2mil will be huge (unless they already tried and failed to recruit their biggest targets).

[ElNono]

What we know is that the Spurs chances to sign Kirilenko improve with these extra +$2M.

It might not be enough but it can't hurt either

I'm not going to dispute that having more cap room helps the team go look for FAs, that's undeniably true.

How does it affect going after Kirilenko specifically? Who knows? Did Kirilenko even said what was he looking for, outside 'more years'?

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

Higher than I had hoped, but I'm glad he's back.

[romain.star]

I'm not going to dispute that having more cap room helps the team go look for FAs, that's undeniably true.

How does it affect going after Kirilenko specifically? Who knows? Did Kirilenko even said what was he looking for, outside 'more years'?

In the specific case of Kirilenko, no one knows... Anyway, those $2M are in Manu's pocket now so let's hope he'll prove all the doubters wrong in the next 2 years!

[Johnny RIngo]

Ginobili should be making Ray Allen money. Anything more than 3 million is overpaying.

[temujin]

Assuming Kirilenko is a such a great deal.
Olimpiakos 2012 would think otherwise.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I was under the impression that once a team signs all of their own free agents, if they are still under the cap, the MLE applies to the remaining difference, meaning that if the Spurs were at 56mil after the Manu signing, they still could only sign Kirilenko to the Full MLE since 2mil of the 5mil MLE exception counted against the remaining cap space the Spurs had.

Now the Spurs went over the cap after resigning Manu, they don't have worry about losing any of the MLE against their own cap space.

[romain.star]

Manu was great in limited minutes throughout the year. i said it in another thread but I think he just shit the bed in the finals (caveat - for a few games) when his role changed and he became the backup point. Too much responsibility for those old legs.

Manu's role is going to change. The Big 3 as we know it is gone. During his 20 minutes of action, Manu perimeter of action will be much more limited (passing and 3 pts shooting for the most part)

[TD 21]

Would he be so selfish as to cost them a good chance at Kirilenko or are they as interested in him as we've been led to believe? Because I find the former hard to believe.

If it is the former, I don't ever want to hear about how great a competitor or how selfless he is again. Not when Duncan (again) and Parker go and cut this them a major break and he maxes out or at least comes perilously close.

[Dingle Barry]

Agree with the people saying he should make what Ray Allen makes.

[Baam]

I'm not even sure Kirilenko would accept to come off the bench in the first place tbh.

[024]

I'm going to reserve judgment until the free agents start drying up. They kind of already are but there still a few notable ones that haven't committed to a team.

But if this is it and the Spurs start looking in the scrap pile, this was an absolutely terrible move.

[Creation88]

Manu's role is going to change. The Big 3 as we know it is gone. During his 20 minutes of action, Manu perimeter of action will be much more limited (passing and 3 pts shooting for the most part)

dude he did that THIS year and sucked at it. his shooting % plummeted and he hasn't adjusted his shot. enough fade away threes....and sure as hell enough with the Tony Romo turnovers

[Johnny RIngo]

Agree with the people saying he should make what Ray Allen makes.

Ray Allen outplayed Manu in the Finals. Ginobili must have no shame if he honestly thinks he's worth 7 million. SA should have let him walk and signed AK instead.

[50 cent]

Like I said in the other thread, $7M was Manu's market value ... so I'm not upset or surprised by the number.

In a perfect world, one would hope Manu would have taken a smaller number but if this is where he drew the line, what else could the Spurs do? He's still a good basketball value at $7M -- and he's worth more than that business-wise when you factor in his fan favorite status.

IMO, TD's market value was $12-14M and he took $10 per season. TP is also on a contract below his market value. Manu's market value was $7M and he took $7M. It's a little disappointing but considering he could have held the team ransom for $8M+ if he wanted to push it, this is far from the worst case scenario.

Well, in that case, they could have turned his turnover factory'd ass lose.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Agree with the people saying he should make what Ray Allen makes.

Just to let you know, Ray allen Salary is costing the Heat 3.5 times what he is getting paid b/c it pushed them well over the Luxury Tax. So in essence Allen is actually costing the Heat around 14mil next season.

[tesseractive]

And Manu's whole body of work these past 2 season has been nowhere near great.

In the regular season, he missed a combined 54 games and only played 23mpg in the other 94.
In the playoffs, his impact was limited and he failed to carry a bigger load than in the regular season.

Add to that, that the logical expectation is Ginobili now getting worse with every single year and paying him more than $12M/ 2 years can hardly be justified.

OVERPAID.
Ok, so not great. But great players make way more than $7M/year, right? Kevin Martin got a 4 year/$28 million deal -- that's where the market is.

Would you honestly rather have Kevin Martin than Manu for the same amount of money?

[objective]

It's not the total that disappoints me, it's the structure.

It could have had a 3rd year with a partial guarantee to get the starting year salary down to give the Spurs a better chance to get a free agent

BUT
Bruno

Why would the Spurs need to worry about capspace for Kirilenko? They've chosen Bonner, they weren't amnestying him for any situation. So any money given to Manu above 3 or 4 million doesn't matter. :lol

Bonner comes first. RC and Pop would choose Bonner over Manu, Bonner over Parker, Bonner over all.

[2centsworth]

Spurs should of let him lose at $7mm. He's quickly becoming a player who gets on my damn nerves.

[SpursSerb]

Bonner will probably get an extension next season and retire as a Spur

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Ray Allen outplayed Manu in the Finals. Ginobili must have no shame if he honestly thinks he's worth 7 million. SA should have let him walk and signed AK instead.

And the Spurs would have no MLE if they did that. AK could still come for the full MLE. But if the Spurs would have just dropped Manu, they could have only used the remaining Cap to sign players, 7 mil Manu got (MLE counts against any remaining cap space). Signing Manu and pushing themselves over the cap from resigning their own players, the Spurs are still allowed to use the full MLE at this point. And not being a Luxury tax team last year, the Spurs still can sign and trade for a player this offseason as well.

As someone mentioned, they can take on a players salary 150% more than their departing salary. You ship out Bonner and Neal for say around 6mil, that means the Spurs can take back a 9mil dollar salary in a S&T. As long as the Spurs don't go over 66mil, they will still have the full MLE after such a trade (a team can't go over the Tax using the full MLE, at which point the mini MLE would apply, I believe).

Spurs still have options at this point. Signing Splitter and Manu first was a necessity b/c of their capholds.

[2centsworth]

It's not the total that disappoints me, it's the structure.

It could have had a 3rd year with a partial guarantee to get the starting year salary down to give the Spurs a better chance to get a free agent

BUT
Bruno (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2449)

Why would the Spurs need to worry about capspace for Kirilenko? They've chosen Bonner, they weren't amnestying him for any situation. So any money given to Manu above 3 or 4 million doesn't matter. :lol

Bonner comes first. RC and Pop would choose Bonner over Manu, Bonner over Parker, Bonner over all.

Can't lose the white fan. Would be financial suicide.

[tesseractive]

Ray Allen outplayed Manu in the Finals. Ginobili must have no shame if he honestly thinks he's worth 7 million. SA should have let him walk and signed AK instead.
Danny Green shut down Stephen Curry. Therefore, Stephen Curry's market value shouldn't be any higher than Danny's, right?

[objective]

I've said for years that Bonner was being groomed to take a place in the front office like Ferry. Except when Bonner comes in it will be around the time that RC is ready to step down. So Bonner will do what Ferry did in Cleveland . . .

Take over and destroy the franchise as a GM just as effectively as he did as a player.

[Johnny RIngo]

Danny Green shut down Stephen Curry. Therefore, Stephen Curry's market value shouldn't be any higher than Danny's, right?

Danny Green did not outplay Curry. Curry was the best offensive player on the Warriors. The only thing the Spurs needed from Green in that series was to play defense.

Ray Allen fulfilled his role as a reliable, clutch role player for the Heat. Manu was an albatross for the Spurs and cost us a championship. Big difference.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Ray Allen outplayed Manu in the Finals.
LOL you're stupid.

[Brazil]

business wise keeping Manu is a no brainer at $14M, basketball wise it's probably $2M too much.

I'll be waiting the definitive figures, as already mentioned salary announced are often over evaluated.

[Spur-Addict]

We will see what kind of contract Kirilenko would get but with Ginobili at $5M, Spurs would have been able to offer Kirilenko a contract starting at $8M-$8.5M.

And without using a "could". To me, it's clear that Ginobili getting these extra $2M truly hurt Spurs chances at getting Kirilenko.

http://www.troll.me/images2/praise/amen-brotha-preach-it.jpg

[ernest787]

Timmy was first team all-nba. He should be on a max contract or atleast bordering on the max. Same with Tony.

Tim wasnt first team all nba anymore when he signed that deal. In fact he wasn't even an Allstar anymore when he signed the contract.

[PlayNando]

Lots of idiots, ignorant posters, and haters in this thread, tbh. Manu got about what his market value was. Sure, I would have liked for him to take less, but it is what it is. He got underpaid early in his career, so he's making up for it now.

Let's not forget Captain Jackass made $10 million this season as did He Who Shall Not Be Named and they gave nothing of value to their teams, tbh.

[DMX7]

Just terrible. I mean I can't even tell what team he played for during the Finals, and I'm not one to use hyperbole.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I said the same thing earlier and people want to ban me.

lol im just loling at your face

[PlayNando]

It is good to see the Spurs lock up an international intelligence for two more years. With all the intelligence being stockpiled on this team, I think the Spurs have a great chances at winning the LOB Trophy next year.

[DMX7]

Well, in that case, they could have turned his turnover factory'd ass lose.

If his market value was $7M, then let him fucking walk. His overall Finals performance was disgusting. I said this even after Game 5, then he really proved me right in Game 6 and Game 7. All I can hope is that they signed him so that they can have someone to use as an asset in a sign and trade once the season starts and teams know they're not going to be in contention.

[benefactor]

We don't even know if the Spurs had any chances to begin with. For all we know, AK47 already said no.
This is probably closer to the truth than anything else. We have heard nothing since the original story. I'm willing to be they called his agent, he gave them a price that was too steep and the Spurs said no thanks.

[PlayNando]

If his market value was $7M, then let him fucking walk. His overall Finals performance was disgusting. I said this even after Game 5, then he really proved me right in Game 6 and Game 7. All I can hope is that they signed him so that they can have someone to use as an asset in a sign and trade once the season starts and teams know they're not going to be in contention.
Bitter gringo, tbh.

[DMX7]

It is good to see the Spurs lock up an international intelligence for two more years. With all the intelligence being stockpiled on this team, I think the Spurs have a great chances at winning the LOB Trophy next year.

International Intelligence? We're not playing FIBA basketball. Everyday that passes this offseason is making me think the Spurs are less likely to get back to the Finals.

[PlayNando]

International Intelligence? We're not playing FIBA basketball. Everyday that passes this offseason is making me think the Spurs are less likely to get back to the Finals.
You are wrong.

[DMX7]

You are wrong.

Based on what? We haven't done ANYTHING except get older and worse.

[PlayNando]

Based on what? We haven't done ANYTHING except get older and worse.
We've been getting "older' and "worse" for years now and we finally made the Finals last year again, tbh.

Kawhi will be better next year, tbh.

Splitter should improve.

Duncan and Manu will age more and could presumably be worse, but we'll see.

We could still sign Korver or something, too.

[angelbelow]

Happy that Manu is back with us. 2 years/14 million about 4 million more than I was expecting but the Spurs have that family culture so not a big surprise.

[DMX7]

I try to make my final judgement about a player based upon whether or not I would want our team to have to go up against him. I would love to go up against a complete stupid-fouling turnover machine like Ginobili. He was great in his prime, but his star shined bright and has now burnt out.

Sorry... tbh...

[Spurs21Fan4Ever]

I'm sorry, but I'm starting to become more of a Timmy fan than a Spurs fan. Timmy scarified money for the better of the team, the Spurs aren't paying him back though. Timmy deserves at least 5 rings.

[Chinook]

I'm sorry, but I'm starting to become more of a Timmy fan than a Spurs fan. Timmy scarified money for the better of the team, the Spurs aren't paying him back though. Timmy deserves at least 5 rings.

He shouldn't have missed that shot then. I'm sure he's the first person to admit that. Almost everyone on the team could have been just a little better, and that includes him. Admitting that and embracing it is what being a team is all about.

Anywho, if the Spurs are really in a position to get Kirilenko, they can probably find a way to adjust Ginobili's contract to make it happen. Even if that means adding a partially guaranteed third season.

[Capt Bringdown]

Nobody else in the NBA would be stupid enough to pay Manu 7 million a year. The Manu fanboi in this forum are like crack addicts with their absurd Manu love.

[Baseline]

Great job, Spurs. That's almost a million bucks per turnover in Game 6. And that's at least 6M more than I thought it would be. I was hoping for 4M a year, a 2/8M deal. The guy plays 20 minutes a game, and misses at least a third of the season. If we had won the title this year, I could see this making sense - as a reward. But this? Tim makes what, 10M a year? And Manu makes 7M? On what planet does that make sense?

[BackHome]

Love Manu but no way is he worth 7 mill with his injury history. But this signing is not about wining it is about selling tickets bottom line $$$

[Vash StampedE]

I love Manu and kinda like Tiago but those contracts they agreed upon are, I have to say, a bit much considering they didn't play well during the Finals

[spurraider21]

if they both took 1 mill less annually it would have painted a much better picture. 2 years 12 million for Manu is what most people here were content with. seemed fair, not too much, not necessarily cheap. of course many of us had hoped that he would accept even less than that, but that was a pipe dream. he's a professional basketball player also trying to make a living.
as for Tiago, 4 years 32 million seems a lot friendlier than 36. plus that 2 million per year of cap space would have helped us make a stronger bid for AK, which about 90% of us are for. still, there's a shot we land him, but its no longer as likely as it seemed just 24 or 48 hours ago.

still, im just glad we got them both back, otherwise we'd be scrambling for a starting center and for a way to replace manu.

[DMX7]

Great job, Spurs. That's almost a million bucks per turnover in Game 6. And that's at least 6M more than I thought it would be. I was hoping for 4M a year, a 2/8M deal. The guy plays 20 minutes a game, and misses at least a third of the season. If we had won the title this year, I could see this making sense - as a reward. But this? Tim makes what, 10M a year? And Manu makes 7M? On what planet does that make sense?

Son... you are speaking the fucking truth. Spurs FO has completely dropped the ball on this one. (no pun intended)

[50 cent]

Nobody else in the NBA would be stupid enough to pay Manu 7 million a year. The Manu fanboi in this forum are like crack addicts with their absurd Manu love.
This. Manu is 36 years old and a much bigger liability than an asset at this point. I shudder to think how fucking terrible he is going to be at age 38.

[BackHome]

Next season Manu is going to freak when all the fans turn on him.:(

[DMX7]

I'm thinking no team offered $7M and that Ginobili threatened to retire if the Spurs didn't offer him at least that much.

[FireMicoHalili]

Called it. How much do we have left? About $2M? That's about the amount the qualifying offer we gave to Gary Neal right? Different year, same team.

MLE though. I bet we spend it on some unknown player like Vitor Faverani or we sign a point guard. If you're a Spurs fan you're going to have to get used to these 'disappointments', but you know there's always a solid reason behind them. I'm calling MLE on Korver, Kirilenko, Bynum (looooong, long shot). Ellis is going to get scooped up by the Bucks. Oden for the vet min because Blair is walking away. If not Oden, DeShaun Thomas takes his spot.

[Capt Bringdown]

Manu speaks Spanish, and that's worth 7 mil a year to the Spurs.

There's no basketball reason to pay a scrub that much money. And that's what Manu is at this point, a scrub.

[FireMicoHalili]

Spurs had to lock up their own contracts before Dwight made a decision. There were around five to six teams vying for him, three of them with cap space. How would we feel if, say, the Mavs offered bigger money to our players? I'm willing to wager the Mavs would make a play at Splitter had they failed in the Howard sweepstakes.

also, no stranger to disappointment after that Game 6 loss

[HemisfairArena]

What a bad off season. It had to happen sometime. Our front office clearly doesnt know when to let go. All we can do as Spurs fans is wait til after 2014-2015 when all the money comes off the books.

[DAF86]

Manu took a paycut of half his salary from last year (assuming the deal is 7 mil the first year, 7 the second). Just throwing it out there, tbh.

[FireMicoHalili]

Manu took a paycut of half his salary from last year (assuming the deal is 7 mil the first year, 7 the second). Just throwing it out there, tbh.
I don't think people here know what tbh means..

[BackHome]

Manu gift for being a good guy was the 14 mill it was not based on his production. We paid him that for him working with us all the time so we should have paid him what he is worth on this new contract which probablly be around 5 mill....no way in hell 7 mill

[dallasmaverickslose]

Next season Manu is going to freak when all the fans turn on him.:(

That won't happen.

[dbestpro]

This speaks volumes about the attitude going forward. The team has elected to play the nastalgia card and will be somewhat competitive, but signing Manu to so much money is a sign of the end. It is a reward as the Spurs start a two year farewell tour.

I think most of us had hoped that they would find a way to transition to the next competitve team, but it is obvious that within three years we will be a lottery team. The biggest question mark for this year will be, can the Spurs continue to win 50 games? I think they will win about 45 and be a 7th seed. The following year we will be fighting for to break even.

We have no way to improve, while the big three weather away.

[vander]

game over man, game over

this plus how much Tiago got is about the worst case scenario for the off season

[cjw]

This. Manu is 36 years old and a much bigger liability than an asset at this point. I shudder to think how fucking terrible he is going to be at age 38.

Give me Manu for $7mm per year over Kevin Martin or Kyle Korver anyday. Plus the deal is only two years.

More importantly, they HAD to pay him $7mm per year in order to get to the brink of the salary cap so they could use the full MLE. No way of getting AK47 or whichever MLE guy they are targeting without doing so. I assume the terms of the contract will be somewhat in flux until pen is put to paper and it could end up being slightly less than $7mm depending on what happens with Neal.



The biggest question mark for this year will be, can the Spurs continue to win 50 games? I think they will win about 45 and be a 7th seed. The following year we will be fighting for to break even.

They won 58 games last year despite Kawhi (24), Tim (13), Tony (16) and Manu (22) all missing significant time - at least 15% of the season and in Kawhi's case almost 30%. Under normal circumstances, you would see that closer to 10% (about 8 games per guy for rest / recovering from wear and tear). Other than the Clippers, the rest of the west is stagnant to slightly worse than last year (NO and Minnesota could improve too, and Portland was 33-36 before losing 13 straight; they'll improve as well). I don't see any less than 50 wins unless there is a serious injury or two.

[HemisfairArena]

This speaks volumes about the attitude going forward. The team has elected to play the nastalgia card and will be somewhat competitive, but signing Manu to so much money is a sign of the end. It is a reward as the Spurs start a two year farewell tour.

I think most of us had hoped that they would find a way to transition to the next competitve team, but it is obvious that within three years we will be a lottery team. The biggest question mark for this year will be, can the Spurs continue to win 50 games? I think they will win about 45 and be a 7th seed. The following year we will be fighting for to break even.

We have no way to improve, while the big three weather away.


Great post. And 5- 10 years down the line when the seats in the arena start to get emptier and emptier...you will start to hear rumblings about the Spurs relocating like they almost did before Robinson arrived. Thanks to not rebuilding but hanging onto the past.

[spurraider21]

This speaks volumes about the attitude going forward. The team has elected to play the nastalgia card and will be somewhat competitive, but signing Manu to so much money is a sign of the end. It is a reward as the Spurs start a two year farewell tour.

I think most of us had hoped that they would find a way to transition to the next competitve team, but it is obvious that within three years we will be a lottery team. The biggest question mark for this year will be, can the Spurs continue to win 50 games? I think they will win about 45 and be a 7th seed. The following year we will be fighting for to break even.

We have no way to improve, while the big three weather away.

somewhat competitive? we are bringing back the team that was a free throw from a freakin championship. we are as competitive as ANY team in the NBA with this squad, so i'm damn glad we are making sure we keep our key guys.

[dbestpro]

That won't happen.

It has already begun.

Manu's greed or the front office mentality has stuffed the Spurs into the limbo box of 5-8 seed for the next two years followed by several years of the lottery.

[Chinook]

Give me Manu for $7mm per year over Kevin Martin or Kyle Korver anyday. Plus the deal is only two years.

More importantly, they HAD to pay him $7mm per year in order to get to the brink of the salary cap so they could use the full MLE. No way of getting AK47 or whichever MLE guy they are targeting without doing so. I assume the terms of the contract will be somewhat in flux until pen is put to paper and it could end up being slightly less than $7mm depending on what happens with Neal.

No, they didn't. They still have very old cap holds that kept them over. Plus Bonner's contract plus the MLE kept them over anyway. Stop repeating that. It's not true.

[dallasmaverickslose]

It has already begun.

Manu's greed or the front office mentality has stuffed the Spurs into the limbo box of 5-8 seed for the next two years followed by several years of the lottery.

Oh ok, so you've time-traveled to the future and observed this? Thanks. Be sure to alert RC before it's too late.

[Capt Bringdown]

A big, fat Thank you contract for Manu = A big FUCK YOU to the fans

[dbestpro]

somewhat competitive? we are bringing back the team that was a free throw from a freakin championship. we are as competitive as ANY team in the NBA with this squad, so i'm damn glad we are making sure we keep our key guys.

That might be reassuring for an up and coming team, but we all know the finals was more like John Wayne going out in the Cowboys or the Shootist. It was the last rodeo of consequence for a long time.

[DPG21920]

Manu took a paycut of half his salary from last year (assuming the deal is 7 mil the first year, 7 the second). Just throwing it out there, tbh.

That doesn't matter. What matters is relative market value. If Dampier was way overpaid to the tune of 15M per year, just because he gets his market value, doesn't mean he's some saint for his salary being lower. It's due to current factors.

[ElNono]

lol meltdowns

Thank you FO and Manu for two more years...

[spurraider21]

It has already begun.

Manu's greed or the front office mentality has stuffed the Spurs into the limbo box of 5-8 seed for the next two years followed by several years of the lottery.

so you are projecting the spurs to be a 5 seed next year? :lmao we are bringing back the team that just won the western conference and was within 29 seconds of flukes from a freakin championship. plus we can still land a decent helping piece with the MLE

[dbestpro]

Oh ok, so you've time-traveled to the future and observed this? Thanks. Be sure to alert RC before it's too late.

Its called being a visionary. Soemthing you and the fromt office seem to have little of these days.

[L.I.T]

From 5 seconds away and ripping through the West to 45 games and barely making the playoffs. Gotta love spurfan.

Funnily enough, Spurs FO churning the supporting cast while retaining their core got them back to Finals, a place they wouldn't have even sniffed if they listened to Spurfan each offseason try and tear the team apart.

Spurs FO has set the team up for a two year window, with a rebuild coming right after. I'd rather take a punchers chance after the Finals over the next two years than definitely slam the window shut.

[cjw]

No, they didn't. They still have very old cap holds that kept them over. Plus Bonner's contract plus the MLE kept them over anyway. Stop repeating that. It's not true.

Splitter's contract had to get done before a front-loaded offer sheet forced their hand. On Manu's, you're right that they probably could have waited and let the cap hold stay in place in the meantime. And unlike Splitter, Manu wasn't going to listen to other offers. Either way, all they were going to be add incrementally was the MLE + minimum players regardless of what Manu got paid.

[DPG21920]

Look, the important thing boiled down is the big 3 are all back. In a bubble, I have no issue with Manu's contract. The issue is that the Spurs needed to have him take slightly less than market value for the good of the team and he did not do it. Should that be expected? No. But with how bad he let the team down (and he even knows this) one would think that when he see's TP and Tim take less than market value that he would follow suit (considering those guys relied on him and he came up woefully short and crushed their hopes of another title).

I wouldn't care if Manu made 40M a year if that meant the Spurs could have him plus add a legit piece (or at least have a legit shot at adding the piece). What Manu did was make it virtually impossible to add that piece and he's the only one of the big 3 getting paid market or above market value which in my eyes is wrong in this situation.

But again, it's not realistic to expect everyone to be a saint and Tim and TP are just an extra kind of special player for doing so.

[vander]

lol meltdowns

Thank you FO and Manu for two more years...

you're thankful for a less competitive basketball team?

[dbestpro]

so you are projecting the spurs to be a 5 seed next year? :lmao we are bringing back the team that just won the western conference and was within 29 seconds of flukes from a freakin championship. plus we can still land a decent helping piece with the MLE

If Manu does not earn his contract, then yes we will be a fifth seed. Manu is done. He cost us a championship, and out of blind loyalty, will usher us into the world of mediocrity. I mean you really didn't think it would last forever, did you?

[HemisfairArena]

Yes we were 28 seconds away from the Title but all the stars aligned for us to get there. Do some posters really think that will happen again? Kobe will go down...Westbrook will go down...Memphis will trade away a player like Rudy Gay....and we'll avoid a horrible match-up in the 1st round like the Nuggets?

[james evans]

WHAT THE FUK?? is this a joke? that mf aint worth no 7 million at this point in his career.

[Obstructed_View]

So Manu goes from being ludicrously overpaid to ridiculously overpaid. The difference is the FO had a choice this time.

[DAF86]

That doesn't matter. What matters is relative market value. If Dampier was way overpaid to the tune of 15M per year, just because he gets his market value, doesn't mean he's some saint for his salary being lower. It's due to current factors.

If Manu got paid 14 mil over 2 years, then that's his market value, tbh.

[DPG21920]

Splitter's contract had to get done before a front-loaded offer sheet forced their hand. On Manu's, you're right that they probably could have waited and let the cap hold stay in place in the meantime. And unlike Splitter, Manu wasn't going to listen to other offers. Either way, all they were going to be add incrementally was the MLE + minimum players regardless of what Manu got paid.

No. If Manu took less than 7M, they have more than the MLE quite easily if they wanted to.

[ElNono]

Its called being a visionary. Soemthing you and the fromt office seem to have little of these days.

This kind of visionary?


I'd throw Green into the trade, move Jack to starting SG, and pickup a decent backup SF to replace Jack at SF.

[Chinook]

Splitter's contract had to get done before a front-loaded offer sheet forced their hand. On Manu's, you're right that they probably could have waited and let the cap hold stay in place in the meantime. And unlike Splitter, Manu wasn't going to listen to other offers. Either way, all they were going to be add incrementally was the MLE + minimum players regardless of what Manu got paid.

Also not true. The Spurs were a couple of easy moves away from opening about $10 Million in cap space if Ginobili took $5 Million. Now, they can open up $8 Million through the same means, but it's probably less worth it now.

[DPG21920]

If Manu got paid 14 mil over 2 years, then that's his market value, tbh.

Agreed. No one is really arguing too much against that. What people are upset about is that Manu is the only member of the big 3 with a market value contract when the situation likely called for him to take a little less (like TP and TD did).

[dbestpro]

Look, the important thing boiled down is the big 3 are all back. In a bubble, I have no issue with Manu's contract. The issue is that the Spurs needed to have him take slightly less than market value for the good of the team and he did not do it. Should that be expected? No. But with how bad he let the team down (and he even knows this) one would think that when he see's TP and Tim take less than market value that he would follow suit (considering those guys relied on him and he came up woefully short and crushed their hopes of another title).

I wouldn't care if Manu made 40M a year if that meant the Spurs could have him plus add a legit piece (or at least have a legit shot at adding the piece). What Manu did was make it virtually impossible to add that piece and he's the only one of the big 3 getting paid market or above market value which in my eyes is wrong in this situation.

But again, it's not realistic to expect everyone to be a saint and Tim and TP are just an extra kind of special player for doing so.

Amen.

[ElNono]

you're thankful for a less competitive basketball team?

you do this every offseason vander... heck, every year.

[Chinook]

This kind of visionary?

The sad thing is, he wasn't even close to the only one with that view. So many people leading up the All-Star Break thought Jack could/should start over Green.

[DPG21920]

lol meltdowns

Thank you FO and Manu for two more years...

I wish the people typing statements like this would clarify. There is a difference in melting down and just assessing the reality of what happened. Hell, I knew it was going to happen from a realistic perspective (I said on the dot what I think Manu would get), but that doesn't change the evaluation of the ramifications of the deal.

[TheGreatYacht]

Great job, Spurs. That's almost a million bucks per turnover in Game 6. And that's at least 6M more than I thought it would be. I was hoping for 4M a year, a 2/8M deal. The guy plays 20 minutes a game, and misses at least a third of the season. If we had won the title this year, I could see this making sense - as a reward. But this? Tim makes what, 10M a year? And Manu makes 7M? On what planet does that make sense?
Nobody else in the NBA would be stupid enough to pay Manu 7 million a year. The Manu fanboi in this forum are like crack addicts with their absurd Manu love.
Love Manu but no way is he worth 7 mill with his injury history. But this signing is not about wining it is about selling tickets bottom line $$$

I love Manu and kinda like Tiago but those contracts they agreed upon are, I have to say, a bit much considering they didn't play well during the Finals
This. Manu is 36 years old and a much bigger liability than an asset at this point. I shudder to think how fucking terrible he is going to be at age 38.
I'm thinking no team offered $7M and that Ginobili threatened to retire if the Spurs didn't offer him at least that much.

Manu speaks Spanish, and that's worth 7 mil a year to the Spurs.

There's no basketball reason to pay a scrub that much money. And that's what Manu is at this point, a scrub.
What a bad off season. It had to happen sometime. Our front office clearly doesnt know when to let go. All we can do as Spurs fans is wait til after 2014-2015 when all the money comes off the books.

Manu gift for being a good guy was the 14 mill it was not based on his production. We paid him that for him working with us all the time so we should have paid him what he is worth on this new contract which probablly be around 5 mill....no way in hell 7 millLMAO at Manu worshippers finding ways to justify that selfish greedy SOB of Manu.
This speaks volumes about the attitude going forward. The team has elected to play the nastalgia card and will be somewhat competitive, but signing Manu to so much money is a sign of the end. It is a reward as the Spurs start a two year farewell tour.

I think most of us had hoped that they would find a way to transition to the next competitve team, but it is obvious that within three years we will be a lottery team. The biggest question mark for this year will be, can the Spurs continue to win 50 games? I think they will win about 45 and be a 7th seed. The following year we will be fighting for to break even.

We have no way to improve, while the big three weather away.

Great post. And 5- 10 years down the line when the seats in the arena start to get emptier and emptier...you will start to hear rumblings about the Spurs relocating like they almost did before Robinson arrived. Thanks to not rebuilding but hanging onto the past.I will feel sorry for all the Popsuckers and Man fan boys.

It has already begun.

Manu's greed or the front office mentality has stuffed the Spurs into the limbo box of 5-8 seed for the next two years followed by several years of the lottery.

A big, fat Thank you contract for Manu = A big FUCK YOU to the fansSwallow that Spurs homers. Wake up. Stop living in the past. Come to reality.

[dbestpro]

This kind of visionary?

..........there is no victory in being second.

Green disappeared when he was needed most. Jack could have been the one guy to put us over the top. We really will never know. We do know that what we did do did not work, either.

[DAF86]

Agreed. No one is really arguing too much against that. What people are upset about is that Manu is the only member of the big 3 with a market value contract when the situation likely called for him to take a little less (like TP and TD did).

I would have also liked to see Manu resigning for less but I can't get upset over him getting a market value contract, much less when he's getting a paycut of around half his previous salary. No matter how rich you are, when you start winning half what you were making it makes a difference in your life.

[dallasmaverickslose]

LMAO at Manu worshippers finding ways to justify that selfish greedy SOB of Manu.
I will feel sorry for all the Popsuckers and Man fan boys.

Swallow that Spurs homers. Wake up. Stop living in the past. Come to reality.

Swallow what a bunch of cliff divers are posting? Nah, we're good bro.

[spurraider21]

No. If Manu took less than 7M, they have more than the MLE quite easily if they wanted to.

you can't combine cap space with the MLE to sign a player.

[DAF86]

Agreed. No one is really arguing too much against that. What people are upset about is that Manu is the only member of the big 3 with a market value contract when the situation likely called for him to take a little less (like TP and TD did).

I would have also liked to see Manu resigning for less but I can't get upset over him getting a market value contract, much less when he's getting a paycut of around half his previous salary. No matter how rich you are, when suddenly you start making half what you were making it makes a big difference in your life.

[DPG21920]

I would have also liked to see Manu resigning for less but I can't get upset over him getting a market value contract, much less when he's getting a paycut of around half his previous salary. No matter how rich you are, when you start winning half what you were making it makes a difference in your life.

Again, his previous salary is of no concern with regards to this contract.

[ElNono]

I wish the people typing statements like this would clarify. There is a difference in melting down and just assessing the reality of what happened. Hell, I knew it was going to happen from a realistic perspective (I said on the dot what I think Manu would get), but that doesn't change the evaluation of the ramifications of the deal.

I don't see you going "fuck this, fuck that, homer this, homer that, etc", tbh... that's a meltdown...

[DPG21920]

you can't combine cap space with the MLE to sign a player.

I know. Spurs wouldn't use the MLE if Manu signed for less. They would use the cap space that was worth more than the MLE.

[Borosai]

Manu didn't earn this contract last season, but maybe he will live up to it next season. I hope he wakes up.

[DAF86]

Again, his previous salary is of no concern with regards to this contract.

For him and his family yes, yes it is. It's easier to take less than market value when you're going up (or less but not much) than when suddenly you have to start making half of what you were making.

[ElNono]

I know. Spurs wouldn't use the MLE if Manu signed for less. They would use the cap space that was worth more than the MLE.

You're assuming they would amnesty Bonner... that's far from a sure thing...

[Mel_13]

I know. Spurs wouldn't use the MLE if Manu signed for less. They would use the cap space that was worth more than the MLE.

And I wish people would stop saying this. If Manu signed for 5M, the Spurs would not have had cap space greater than the MLE.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

He shouldn't have missed that shot then. I'm sure he's the first person to admit that. Almost everyone on the team could have been just a little better, and that includes him. Admitting that and embracing it is what being a team is all about.

Anywho, if the Spurs are really in a position to get Kirilenko, they can probably find a way to adjust Ginobili's contract to make it happen. Even if that means adding a partially guaranteed third season.

Amen to that - the TEAM as a whole lost. Not just Manu and the multiple bad games/turnovers or
Kawhi and the missed FT to put the team ahead by 4 instead of 3 or
TP who played fairly poorly down the stretch in both game 6 and 7 when he made multiple bad decisions or
Timmy who missed an easy game tying layup twice at the end of game 7 or
Splitter who looked completely overmatched or
Pop who should've fouled at the end of game 6 instead of letting the Heat take not 1 but 2 shots at a 3 pointer or
for Pop even having Manu in the game at all toward the end of game 7
or . . .

[spurraider21]

I know. Spurs wouldn't use the MLE if Manu signed for less. They would use the cap space that was worth more than the MLE.


You're assuming they would amnesty Bonner... that's far from a sure thing...

this. essentially ever cap scenario Chinook and Bruno were cooking up to land a free agent stemmed from amnestying Bonner, or even pulling a sign and trade where we'd be able to dump de colo/mills to save some extra coin. i'm going to presume they've negotiated with kirilenko's camp, or whoever their target is (most of this is speculation), and couldn't find a way to hammer home a deal or have agreed to use the MLE.

[TheGoldStandard]

I've been following this closely and at first I was going to go all stubborn this is bullshit take but no, I took a step back and I'm okay with this bad deal. For his role on the team, for the minutes and obviously the diminished minutes he will have this is a gross overpayment and it's not market value, didn't see any other 35+ year olds in free agency get paid 7Million but it's a Spurs move, stick with what you know.

As a Spur fan from the early 90's I realize the incredible run that we've had since 99, the fact that we don't have losing seasons, that we have been to conference finals and Finals, we have All Star players on our team and MVPs and Finals MVPs, it's a whirlwind to think how much they've accomplish in the last 15 years. We haven't seen a down year in San Antonio aside from 97 which allowed up to get Tim Duncan who saved this franchise. We've always been competitive and had a chance but this has been with 2 great big men. Robinson could never do it alone but when Tim got here sky was the limit. Now we're embarking into unfamiliar territory the likes of which Pop & RC Buford have not really had to deal with so how would they know what to do in this situation or see the writing on the wall..

We'll stay status quo and keep our unit until the wheels fall off and who knows then. Hopefully they can all take a dip into the fountain of youth for one more season or two and we don't see massive drop-offs like most people who reach that 35+ age in basketball. Hopefully the team has made a big enough impression on Kawhi and he see's a future here that he decides to take an extension with us and not explore free agency to get as much money as he can or that we can entice others to come here once Tim and Manu ride off into the sunset.

Here's to 2 more years.

[Poolboy5623]

I wondered how many pages we'd be up to, by now...14 in 4 hours? Come on guys.

[vander]

you do this every offseason vander... heck, every year.

and...

[TheGoldStandard]

I will say this though, Manu definitely needs to work on his FT% for this season, it was pretty awful compared to previous seasons and might be pivotal. As far as him tweaking his game, I don't see any tweaks that would be successful, he's been shooting that 3 ball for sometime and his percentages are not really that much off from his normal % numbers.

[ElNono]

and...

And we've done better and better the past two seasons... which confirms what everyone knows: you and your pal rascal suck...

[DPG21920]

I don't see you going "fuck this, fuck that, homer this, homer that, etc", tbh... that's a meltdown...

I see.

[DPG21920]

For him and his family yes, yes it is. It's easier to take less than market value when you're going up (or less but not much) than when suddenly you have to start making half of what you were making.

smh

[objective]

re: Manu's salary, I could envision a scenario where a team that needs to spend to get to the floor could offer Manu around what the Spurs ended up paying him had the Spurs hardballed him to take less.

That being said, I have the uncomfortable feeling that Manu will fall apart like Brent Barry did after leaving the Spurs, except Manu will fall apart here.

[Chinook]

And I wish people would stop saying this. If Manu signed for 5M, the Spurs would not have had cap space greater than the MLE.

I've been trying to tell them. The Spurs are over the cap by A LOT if they want to be. They can certainly get under the cap by amnestying Bonner and renouncing all of their holds, but they were never in danger of losing the MLE if they wanted to keep it.

[DPG21920]

And I wish people would stop saying this. If Manu signed for 5M, the Spurs would not have had cap space greater than the MLE.

Yes they would (based on what several of us assumed could be subsequent moves)

[Chinook]

Yes they would (based on what several of us assumed could be subsequent moves)

The better answer is yes they COULD. The would not have been just by amnestying Bonner.

[spurraider21]

while i'm personally OK with the deal (not super excited, but at the same time its awesome to know we have Manu for another 2 years), i can't convince myself that he couldn't have been had for less. i really didn't see Manu leaving for another team. he wouldn't be happy. at the same time, it wouldn't be right for the spurs FO to go into the meeting and say "listen, we know ur gna stay here, so he's 3 mil per year." still, he really couldn't have been had for say, 2 years 11 mil? i guess after kevin martin got paid nearly 8 mil per year, it threw a monkey wrench into it. plus reddick getting what, 5.5 or 6.5 didn't help. manu > reddick and its still not close

[siraulo23]

loyalty deal

honestly, it is the same team back who almost won the 'ship but you're gambling on ginobili to be healthy come playoff time next year, this is true more so than any other year

i'd love for both splitter and manu to take around a million less per year, but it is what it is, i was hoping the spurs would bring a couple of new pieces (i.e. backup pg/sf) along with the core of last year's team but meh...

next stop: re-sign neal and blair :lmao

[dunkman]

Manu just doesn't play enough games, and in the playoffs has too few good games, that contract just doesn't make sense. After the RJ fiasco, the FO became too conservative, they will invest big contracts only in players they positively know that work well in the Spurs system. And it's hard to argue with the success the Spurs enjoyed the last two seasons, but the team really needs some upgrades IMO.

[objective]

Is Manu still going to play for the National team in the summers?

[Mel_13]

Yes they would (based on what several of us assumed could be subsequent moves)

So, they could have been if they a made another move that's there's no reason to believe that they would have made.

Gotcha.

Some of us think that those two things are not the same, but you go ahead and keep laying this at Manu's doorstep.

[Johnny RIngo]

I would have also liked to see Manu resigning for less but I can't get upset over him getting a market value contract, much less when he's getting a paycut of around half his previous salary. No matter how rich you are, when suddenly you start making half what you were making it makes a big difference in your life.

It's not market value considering his injury history(will probably miss 40+ games during this new contract) and his inability to step up in the playoffs. We're basically paying someone worse than Danny Green twice his salary. Manu has no business making over 5 million.

[DPG21920]

The better answer is yes they COULD. The would not have been just by amnestying Bonner.

:lol Semantics. The point always was, you included, that using simple logic, the Spurs had the potential to quite easily have cap space significant enough to go above MLE. Is it guaranteed? Obviously no, but if the argument is "you can't discuss hypotheticals" well then all of this is just dumb if you have to wait and see what actually happens. It's why several of us knew the range before Manu and Tiago agreed to their deals on what they would be.

[Mel_13]

:lol Semantics. The point always was, you included, that using simple logic, the Spurs had the potential to quite easily have cap space significant enough to go above MLE. Is it guaranteed? Obviously no, but if the argument is "you can't discuss hypotheticals" well then all of this is just dumb if you have to wait and see what actually happens. It's why several of us knew the range before Manu and Tiago agreed to their deals on what they would be.

smh

[DPG21920]

So, they could have been if they a made another move that's there's no reason to believe that they would have made.

Gotcha.

Some of us think that those two things are not the same, but you go ahead and keep laying this at Manu's doorstep.

So basically your argument is that some of the most knowledgable posters with regards to the game/spurs/cap space (i.e. Timvp, Bruno and to a lesser extent myself) are just making up wild things that are far fetched? Ok.

The reality is, whether you want to go into the weeds or not, is that with a 5M contract for Manu, the potential was there. With this contract, the potential is not there.

[ElNono]

Is Manu still going to play for the National team in the summers?

definitely not playing this summer

[DPG21920]

smh

That's telling me

[rascal]

I love Manu, but this sucks. Just spent all the money on Manu and Splitter.

Just the way I called it all along.

[Chinook]

:lol Semantics. The point always was, you included, that using simple logic, the Spurs had the potential to quite easily have cap space significant enough to go above MLE. Is it guaranteed? Obviously no, but if the argument is "you can't discuss hypotheticals" well then all of this is just dumb if you have to wait and see what actually happens. It's why several of us knew the range before Manu and Tiago agreed to their deals on what they would be.

No, in general I agree with you. I was one of the people in favor of remaining over the cap, though, so that's why I pointed out the difference. The Spurs still have the leeway to make two major acquisitions this off-season. That would not have been the case if they had gone under. So I tend not to think Ginobili's deal matters too much, since the Spurs should have just cut Bonner if they cared about cap space so much.

[Mel_13]

So basically your argument is that some of the most knowledgable posters with regards to the game/spurs/cap space (i.e. Timvp, Bruno and to a lesser extent myself) are just making up wild things that are far fetched? Ok.


i suggested no such thing.


The reality is, whether you want to go into the weeds or not, is that with a 5M contract for Manu, the potential was there. With this contract, the potential is not there.

Then that's what you should have said. I don't have an issue with that statement.

[Chinook]

So basically your argument is that some of the most knowledgable posters with regards to the game/spurs/cap space (i.e. Timvp, Bruno and to a lesser extent myself) are just making up wild things that are far fetched? Ok.

The reality is, whether you want to go into the weeds or not, is that with a 5M contract for Manu, the potential was there. With this contract, the potential is not there.

I won't speak for Mel, but I think it's more about whether it's right to blame Ginobili. Most likely, the Spurs planned to stay over the cap, which is why he took the deal he did. A lot of people seem to think that Manu prevented the Spurs from being under the cap, and that's probably inaccurate. If the team had a plan to acquire a player with cap space, and they needed Manu to take a little less, he probably would have.

[L.I.T]

Eh. Renouncing to get far under the cap the so doesn't guarantee they're improved over last year. At very least, at this moment, they've treaded water with the likely possibility of improving via the MLE and by being active S&T players. All the while retaining major cap flexibility in two years.

[Mel_13]

I won't speak for Mel, but I think it's more about blaming whether it's right to blame Ginobili. Most likely, the Spurs planned to stay over the cap, which is why he took the deal he did. A lot of people seem to think that Manu prevented the Spurs from being under the cap, and that's probably inaccurate. If the team had a plan to acquire a player with cap space, and they needed Manu to take a little less, he probably would have.

bingo

[DPG21920]

No, in general I agree with you. I was one of the people in favor of remaining over the cap, though, so that's why I pointed out the difference. The Spurs still have the leeway to make two major acquisitions this off-season. That would not have been the case if they had gone under. So I tend not to think Ginobili's deal matters too much, since the Spurs should have just cut Bonner if they cared about cap space so much.

It's a cart before the horse thing. Bonner still has value to the Spurs. You only cut Bonner if two things happen: first - Manu takes a contract that would result in more cap space than MLE money assuming you amnesty Bonner - second: there is a FA you like enough in that range you can come to terms with.

With the first thing out of the picture, you don't have a reason to amnesty Bonner. I agree it's not the end of the world and if the Spurs can still add a piece that helps, I could care less about Manu's contract (as I said initially). I am just evaluating what I think this deal does to the odds of landing someone like an AK (although it could still happen) based on what info is available.

[DPG21920]

i suggested no such thing.



Then that's what you should have said. I don't have an issue with that statement.

:lol, again you were getting caught on a portion while ignoring what I have been saying for days on the matter.

[rmt]

Overpaid - he's worth $5m at most. For the past 2 years, he's played in only 63% of the games. When he's not injured, he takes forever to even get back into rhythm. His 12-13 regular season free-throw percentage was 79.6% dropped from 87.1 ('12), 87.1 ('11), 87 ('10), 88.4 ('09), 86 ('08), and 86 ('07). His 12-13 playoff FT% was 73.8% - compared to his career 81.6%. It's not just his physical body that's declined. Can you imagine what he'll be like 2 years from now? And after that horrible playoff run, I don't know how he doesn't feel guilty with all those turnovers.

To all those who are saying that we were one free-throw away from a title - I counter that this past playoff was the perfect storm for the Spurs - Kobe/Lakers injured, Westbrooke out, Wade injured. TD had a spectacular year - do we really expect him to play at that level for 2 more years? How much can Leonard improve to offset the decline in the big 3? And lost in all this, is Neal coming back? We fans love to knock Neal and his lack of defense, but the guy puts up points in a hurry and is a big part of the depth that SAS uses to keep the big 3 rested.

[DPG21920]

I won't speak for Mel, but I think it's more about whether it's right to blame Ginobili. Most likely, the Spurs planned to stay over the cap, which is why he took the deal he did. A lot of people seem to think that Manu prevented the Spurs from being under the cap, and that's probably inaccurate. If the team had a plan to acquire a player with cap space, and they needed Manu to take a little less, he probably would have.

Well, I guess ultimately this is where we disagree. Manu had the Spurs (IMO and other's opinion) in a situation where they could not really let him go. They probably laid it out much like Timvp said and Manu took what he felt was market value. He did not do the Spurs any favors and I highly doubt that if the Spurs could have had Manu for 2/10 that they would have just paid him 2/14 because in their plans it made no difference in who they wanted to acquire.

[rascal]

The Spurs coming back with the same team thinking the league will still also be the same.

[Mel_13]

:lol, again you were getting caught on a portion while ignoring what I have been saying for days on the matter.

I was responding to your posts in this thread. I can't ignore what I haven't read.

[DPG21920]

So, they could have been if they a made another move that's there's no reason to believe that they would have made.

Gotcha.

Some of us think that those two things are not the same, but you go ahead and keep laying this at Manu's doorstep.


i suggested no such thing.



This statement "there's no reason to believe" when Bruno, timvp, myself and Chinook all thought it would definitely be a legit possibility at best alludes to the fact you don't believe what we say.

[Mel_13]

The Spurs coming back with the same team thinking the league will still also be the same.

Seriously, history shows that the league will mostly be the same. A very few teams will be better and a few more will be worse.

[Chinook]

It's a cart before the horse thing. Bonner still has value to the Spurs. You only cut Bonner if two things happen: first - Manu takes a contract that would result in more cap space than MLE money assuming you amnesty Bonner - second: there is a FA you like enough in that range you can come to terms with.

With the first thing out of the picture, you don't have a reason to amnesty Bonner. I agree it's not the end of the world and if the Spurs can still add a piece that helps, I could care less about Manu's contract (as I said initially). I am just evaluating what I think this deal does to the odds of landing someone like an AK (although it could still happen) based on what info is available.

With Bonner, if they could have cut him, then could have brought him back for the room exception if they wanted, which would be almost net-neutral to him, but would save the team $3 Million in cap space. With Ginobili, I doubt he really cared whether it was $6 Million or $7 Million. Just like I doubt Duncan cared if he got paid $9 Million or $11 Million last season. If that's what it took to get the right player, I'm sure Ginobili would compromise THAT much. My guess is that the Spurs never really thought about it that way, though.

Even now, the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and move Mills to open up enough space to get Kirilenko. More than likely, they'd try to work out a S&T first though, as that would still give them the MLE if they need it. My guess is it's been MLE or bust for them this entire time.

[DPG21920]

Well, unfortunately Manus deal was what I thought. He did not give the Spurs any discount at all. He got his full market value. I'm happy he's back but combined with how bad he let his team down in the finals I am still incredibly disappointed in Manu Ginobili.

Free agency, from an impact player perspective is likely dead. Not only because of the players available at MLE level, but because MLE has never been good enough for the Spurs. They needed that 7M number to lure someone.

Glad he's back, but damn Manu right now for this past couple months.


With Bonner, if they could have cut him, then could have brought him back for the room exception if they wanted, which would be almost net-neutral to him, but would save the team $3 Million in cap space. With Ginobili, I doubt he really cared whether it was $6 Million or $7 Million. Just like I doubt Duncan cared if he got paid $9 Million or $11 Million last season. If that's what it took to get the right player, I'm sure Ginobili would compromise THAT much. My guess is that the Spurs never really thought about it that way, though.

Even now, the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and move Mills to open up enough space to get Kirilenko. More than likely, they'd try to work out a S&T first though, as that would still give them the MLE if they need it. My guess is it's been MLE or bust for them this entire time.

Ultimately, I agree. I am just assessing the ease of doing so. It would have been easier with Manu at 5M than his 7M to net a guy like AK. In the end, they still may be able to do so, and that is all that really matters. But if they cannot, all signs point to this Manu deal as the main culprit and I still believe that Manu knowingly took as much as he could with little thought to what the Spurs were trying to do. Others (timvp, bruno) feel the same despite some disagreements on what is fair vs overpaid in a bubble.

[Robz4000]

God bless, this Manu deal is tearing ST apart!

:corn:

[DPG21920]

Also, the other thing to note is that those who know the Spurs FA track record know that unfortunately the MLE has never been enough. Let alone a CBA muted version of the former MLE. Spurs have had a hard enough time with FA's and the MLE has seemingly had them miss out on numerous guys that took the same (or more money) elsewhere.

[Mel_13]

This statement "there's no reason to believe" when Bruno, timvp, myself and Chinook all thought it would definitely be a legit possibility at best alludes to the fact you don't believe what we say.

Wow.

Bruno, and others, laid out possible strategies that the Spurs could employ. I don't recall him, or anyone with credible inside information, saying that would employ any of those strategies. In fact, I can recall Bruno suggesting the scenario that has actually played among those possibilities.

So, I believed that various scenarios were possible. That's not the same as having any evidence that the Spurs ever had any intention to pursue any one of them in particular.

The difference is more that one of semantics.

[Mel_13]

Ultimately, I agree. I am just assessing the ease of doing so. It would have been easier with Manu at 5M than his 7M to net a guy like AK. In the end, they still may be able to do so, and that is all that really matters. But if they cannot, all signs point to this Manu deal as the main culprit and I still believe that Manu knowingly took as much as he could with little thought to what the Spurs were trying to do. Others (timvp, bruno) feel the same despite some disagreements on what is fair vs overpaid in a bubble.

This is the main point of disagreement.

[Chinook]

Well, I guess ultimately this is where we disagree. Manu had the Spurs (IMO and other's opinion) in a situation where they could not really let him go. They probably laid it out much like Timvp said and Manu took what he felt was market value. He did not do the Spurs any favors and I highly doubt that if the Spurs could have had Manu for 2/10 that they would have just paid him 2/14 because in their plans it made no difference in who they wanted to acquire.

We'll never know for sure, and you're definitely entitled to your opinion. But you have to ask yourself how much money Duncan would have taken if the Spurs didn't need him to take a discount last year. I bet it would probably have been more than Garnett got at least. If there were no pressure on Ginobili to take less, it doesn't make sense to do so. Just like it didn't make sense for Duncan to opt out of his last year a couple of off-seasons ago, as doing so wouldn't have helped the club at all. (Dirk did opt out to try to help the Mavs, though, as a point of contrast.)

For all we know, both sides may have well though that Ginobili had a higher market value than $7 Million. If the Spurs were willing to pay him $10 Million, and he took $7 Million, that's a good bit of compromise on his part. There are a lot of moving parts to this off-season, and despite all the criticism going on right now, the front office has managed the cap beautifully to be able to re-sign all of their players. Golden State and Boston can't say that, and you better believe that Miami and Los Angeles which their stars signing up only ate up their cap space.

[DPG21920]

Wow.

Bruno, and others, laid out possible strategies that the Spurs could employ. I don't recall him, or anyone with credible inside information, saying that would employ any of those strategies. In fact, I can recall Bruno suggesting the scenario that has actually played among those possibilities.

So, I believed that various scenarios were possible. That's not the same as having any evidence that the Spurs ever had any intention to pursue any one of them in particular.

The difference is more that one of semantics.

So the fact that one time, I used the word "would", despite my literal 50 post on the topic today and previous days was enough for you to claim this things towards me? If that is not semantics, I need to re-think my thoughts on the definition o of the word.

[Johnny RIngo]

Overpaid - he's worth $5m at most. For the past 2 years, he's played in only 63% of the games. When he's not injured, he takes forever to even get back into rhythm. His 12-13 regular season free-throw percentage was 79.6% dropped from 87.1 ('12), 87.1 ('11), 87 ('10), 88.4 ('09), 86 ('08), and 86 ('07). His 12-13 playoff FT% was 73.8% - compared to his career 81.6%. It's not just his physical body that's declined. Can you imagine what he'll be like 2 years from now? And after that horrible playoff run, I don't know how he doesn't feel guilty with all those turnovers.

To all those who are saying that we were one free-throw away from a title - I counter that this past playoff was the perfect storm for the Spurs - Kobe/Lakers injured, Westbrooke out, Wade injured. TD had a spectacular year - do we really expect him to play at that level for 2 more years? How much can Leonard improve to offset the decline in the big 3? And lost in all this, is Neal coming back? We fans love to knock Neal and his lack of defense, but the guy puts up points in a hurry and is a big part of the depth that SAS uses to keep the big 3 rested.

I don't know how Manu sleeps at night knowing he chose to play his best ball for Argentina instead of winning a 5th ring for Timmy...all while being the highest paid player on the team

[DPG21920]

This is the main point of disagreement.

If the Spurs don't land any FA's (at the MLE level or ones that most would perceive at that level or above) is your thought that the Spurs didn't have interest in them or would it be that the MLE could not get it done?

[Chinook]

This is the main point of disagreement.

Pretty much. The Spurs' decision to not waive Bonner was probably the biggest sign they planned to stay over the cap. Them stashing their pick was just a coincidence.

[DPG21920]

We'll never know for sure, and you're definitely entitled to your opinion. But you have to ask yourself how much money Duncan would have taken if the Spurs didn't need him to take a discount last year. I bet it would probably have been more than Garnett got at least. If there were no pressure on Ginobili to take less, it doesn't make sense to do so. Just like it didn't make sense for Duncan to opt out of his last year a couple of off-seasons ago, as doing so wouldn't have helped the club at all. (Dirk did opt out to try to help the Mavs, though, as a point of contrast.)

For all we know, both sides may have well though that Ginobili had a higher market value than $7 Million. If the Spurs were willing to pay him $10 Million, and he took $7 Million, that's a good bit of compromise on his part. There are a lot of moving parts to this off-season, and despite all the criticism going on right now, the front office has managed the cap beautifully to be able to re-sign all of their players. Golden State and Boston can't say that, and you better believe that Miami and Los Angeles which their stars signing up only ate up their cap space.

Well, that's where you lose me. Are you saying, that realistically, it would not be any easier for the Spurs to nab a guy like AK47 if Manu took 5M instead of 7M (based on what you feel they would have to do subsequently in order to make things work)?

[TheGoldStandard]

If the Spurs don't land any FA's (at the MLE level or ones that most would perceive at that level or above) is your thought that the Spurs didn't have interest in them or would it be that the MLE could not get it done?

Spurs will land someone, the question will be who.. AK and the boards will come to life with hope. backload the deal and the right number of years and he'll bite, no news on him having other significant offers.

[DPG21920]

It could be the difference between Spurs getting Kirilenko and Spurs not getting him.


Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.


Bruno is telling the truth, tbh.

So, Mel, you disagree with this in addition to mine?

[vander]

And we've done better and better the past two seasons... which confirms what everyone knows: you and your pal rascal suck...

and the player I've most wanted gone (Manu) sabotaged a ridiculously improbable and lucky chance at a title

14 mill spent elsewhere last year and TD has 5

Manu Traded in 08 or 09 and TD probably has 6

manu's last 2 contracts were huge mistakes

[ElNono]

IMO, the biggest question is what does Kirilenko wants? He said more years, ok. How many years and for how much? We have no idea what numbers he's looking for right now, so we have no idea why the Spurs went the way they did.

[DPG21920]

It could be the difference between Spurs getting Kirilenko and Spurs not getting him.


Not really.

I'm using "could" because we don't really know for the moment but there is a strong possibility that Ginobili not willing to take $5M per year has cost Kirilenko for Spurs.


Spurs will land someone, the question will be who.. AK and the boards will come to life with hope. backload the deal and the right number of years and he'll bite, no news on him having other significant offers.

You can't back load an MLE offer. At this point, that is the best they can hope to offer.

[ElNono]

and the player I've most wanted gone (Manu) sabotaged a ridiculously improbable and lucky chance at a title

14 mill spent elsewhere last year and TD has 5

Manu Traded in 08 or 09 and TD probably has 6

manu's last 2 contracts were huge mistakes

You've been wanting this team to be blown out for the past 5 seasons... what are you bitching about again?

[ElNono]

So, Mel, you disagree with this in addition to mine?

I did.

[DPG21920]

IMO, the biggest question is what does Kirilenko wants? He said more years, ok. How many years and for how much? We have no idea what numbers he's looking for right now, so we have no idea why the Spurs went the way they did.

Again, of course, technically this is true. But people (like how I used my best knowledge of the Spurs/Manu/Situation to say Manu will get 2/14) can make assumptions that tend to come true (not always) based on their knowledge. It's not always a "wait and see" and a you are only right after the fact type of situation.

[Chinook]

Well, that's where you lose me. Are you saying, that realistically, it would not be any easier for the Spurs to nab a guy like AK47 if Manu took 5M instead of 7M (based on what you feel they would have to do subsequently in order to make things work)?

Easier? Maybe. More desirable? That's a different matter entirely. If their plan was to just get him and call it an off-season, then they'd probably have started discussions with him already before hammering out an agreement with Ginobili. That fact that we've heard so little about that suggests that wasn't their plan. They don't need the cap space in order to negotiate on a contract with Kirilenko, so there was no reason to have Ginobili choose a number before finding out what number it would take to get the deal done. It would be like if Duncan had agreed to his contract before Green and Diaw were re-signed.

If the Spurs' plan the whole time was to either go after him with the MLE or try to S&T for him, they didn't need cap space at all, and so they could agree with Ginobili early, like they did. Doing it this way is harder, but it shouldn't be that hard, and it will give the team more financial flexibility in the long run.

[TheGoldStandard]

You can't back load an MLE offer. At this point, that is the best they can hope to offer.

Oh well, then options are low.. more of a seat warmer guy then. Don't think we'd get Aminu either for that amount.

[Johnny RIngo]

The Spurs coming back with the same team thinking the league will still also be the same.

This is why they've never made it to back-to-back Finals or ever repeated...Keeping too much dead weight year after year(overpaying Manu is the newest example). Spurs get bounced out of the 2nd round next year after Parker/Duncan are fatigued from carrying the team the past few seasons. Manu will probably be injured or putting up a paltry 10 ppg on bad efficiency.

[vander]

You've been wanting this team to be blown out for the past 5 seasons... not blown up, just ship out Manu, maybe TP

what are you bitching about again?Manu's contract, that's what this thread is about right? Spurs repeating their mistake, very frustrating

[DPG21920]

Easier? Maybe. More desirable? That's a different matter entirely. If their plan was to just get him and call it an off-season, then they'd probably have started discussions with him already before hammering out an agreement with Ginobili. That fact that we've heard so little about that suggests that wasn't their plan. They don't need the cap space in order to negotiate on a contract with Kirilenko, so there was no reason to have Ginobili choose a number before finding out what number it would take to get the deal done. It would be like if Duncan had agreed to his contract before Green and Diaw were re-signed.

If the Spurs' plan the whole time was to either go after him with the MLE or try to S&T for him, they didn't need cap space at all, and so they could agree with Ginobili early, like they did. Doing it this way is harder, but it shouldn't be that hard, and it will give the team more financial flexibility in the long run.

Well, I think the plan was to a) Bring back Manu at all cost b) get a guy like AK hopefully if a allows. It doesn't take them out of the running, but very well could be the main reason (we have to see what AK takes however to make a final determination) Spurs miss out.

I've said what I could on the matter and now we just have to wait. It very well could be moot and if that's the case, again, I could care less what Manu makes and I am glad he is back

[benefactor]

not blown up, just ship out Manu, maybe TP

That's blowing up the team, fuck puddle.

[vander]

That's blowing up the team, fuck puddle.

TD is the team

[DPG21920]

Ya, letting a big 3 member go (hell, even letting Tiago walk without a guaranteed upgrade) is blowing it up considering the Spurs situation.

[DPG21920]

TD is the team

Vander, If Manu took 6M instead of 7M you'd be gone and that's really why I am so disappointed.

[benefactor]

TD is the team
He's the main piece...but the whole team is needed. But you don't understand this, because you about as good as Isaiah Thomas at assessing team needs.

[Robz4000]

Spurs should just blow it up tbh. Manu is washed up, Tony is a mental midget, Timmy is old, Pop is senile, Kawhi is a role player, etc.

[tesseractive]

I won't speak for Mel, but I think it's more about whether it's right to blame Ginobili. Most likely, the Spurs planned to stay over the cap, which is why he took the deal he did. A lot of people seem to think that Manu prevented the Spurs from being under the cap, and that's probably inaccurate. If the team had a plan to acquire a player with cap space, and they needed Manu to take a little less, he probably would have.
Wait, this position is entirely too reasonable! :lol

[Mel_13]

If the Spurs don't land any FA's (at the MLE level or ones that most would perceive at that level or above) is your thought that the Spurs didn't have interest in them or would it be that the MLE could not get it done?

Now you've really lost me. If the Spurs don't land a MLE level FA, there will be several possible reasons beyond the two that you list and different players will have different reasons.

[Chinook]

Well, I think the plan was to a) Bring back Manu at all cost b) get a guy like AK hopefully if a allows. It doesn't take them out of the running, but very well could be the main reason (we have to see what AK takes however to make a final determination) Spurs miss out.

I've said what I could on the matter and now we just have to wait. It very well could be moot and if that's the case, again, I could care less what Manu makes and I am glad he is back

In that same regard, the plan last season was to a) bring Duncan back at all costs b) bring back Green and Diaw while staying under the tax line. Yet, they still negotiated with Duncan last. It's not like they went to him and said, "Please take $10 Million so we can re-sign the other guys." Duncan was just like, "Do what you need to do," and pretty much just kicked back and signed his contract when the time came.

Ginobili seemed to have a similar approach, heading off to another country during the opening days of free agency. He came back and promptly signed a deal. If they were trying to fit him and AK in the cap space, we'd've seen reports that the team was negotiating with AK's agent already. It wouldn't make sense to have Ginobili take $5 Million so the team could offer AK $8 Million, and then AK only needing $6 Million to sign. Then Ginobili would have given up that money for nothing.

[Tim_duncan21]

It could've been lower by 1M or a few more but welcome back Manu

[manufan10]

The fact of the matter is all of this is mere speculation. None of us even know what the Spurs' plans nor what their intentions were/are. People are seriously getting butt hurt over this without direct knowledge of the situation. For all we know the Kirilenko rumor was just that a rumor. It wouldn't be the first time the Spurs' name was used as leverage, imo tbh.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Wait, this position is entirely too reasonable! :lol

Indeed.

Still hoping for AK47 but will also be very happy with Matt Barnes. I have a feeling that was the Spurs plan all along.

[Mel_13]

So, Mel, you disagree with this in addition to mine?

Yes.

Disagreed, not disbelieved.

[tesseractive]

I don't know how Manu sleeps at night knowing he chose to play his best ball for Argentina instead of winning a 5th ring for Timmy...all while being the highest paid player on the team
Man, patriotic people who care about their country are just the worst.

Happy 4th of July!

[ElNono]

Again, of course, technically this is true. But people (like how I used my best knowledge of the Spurs/Manu/Situation to say Manu will get 2/14) can make assumptions that tend to come true (not always) based on their knowledge. It's not always a "wait and see" and a you are only right after the fact type of situation.

What you're saying is some people have a better track record speculating than others. That's fine.

It's still speculation though. For all we know, it's just as likely the Spurs were never interested in AK, and this was his agent trying to prop up his client's value.

So the question really is, how do you start spreading blame when you don't even know what transpired?

[Mel_13]

Man, patriotic people who care about their country are just the worst.

Happy 4th of July!

:lmao

[Big P]

not blown up, just ship out Manu, maybe TP
Manu's contract, that's what this thread is about right? Spurs repeating their mistake, very frustrating



What mistake is that?....there were 2 things that could happen this offseason...either the spurs dump everyone they could dump (bonner,manu, neal, splitter, blair etc) and clear as much cap room as possible and probably get 1 max player and another upper-mid level from THIS years free agents..or they could stick with the plan (big 3 and pop to 2015), develop our younger players (KL, Tiago, Green CJo etc) and have cap space for probably 2 max players plus more in 2015....obviously the FO did not see any FA's this off season that blew their socks off...dhoward was the "prize" this year...we now know what will happen over the next 2 years...the team will continue to be competitive by using exemptions and expiring contracts (bonner,diaw,decolo) to tweak the team and in 2015 there will pretty much be a complete overhaul with KL leading the team... Spurs fans need to accept this.

[sventhedog]

probably the spurs way of telling duncan to retire? lol.

[ElNono]

not blown up, just ship out Manu, maybe TP
Manu's contract, that's what this thread is about right? Spurs repeating their mistake, very frustrating

This is your first post in Spurstalk (from 2007 nonetheless!!!!)


the SPURS are spoiled and lucky, and us fans deserve to have that luck utilized effectively, not pissed away.

the spurs getting duncan in 97 would be like miami getting greg oden next draft, if the NBA had a normal draft instead of that gay lottery, Duncan would have been a celtic.

so everyone who is so quick to praise RC and pop, what did they really do? who was their best FA signing, or even a good one (outside of Bowen)? Anderson? Rasho?

it is of my opinion that a team who has one of the best power forwards of all time fall into their lap undeservedly should have more then 3 championships to show for it 10 years later. just look back on all the FA failures this team has had over Duncan's tenure. only one player has worked out (bowen) among all of them, anderson, daniels, smith, rasho, van exel, and on and on, and on.

also pop needs to add to that archaic offensive play calling, it's like the martyball of the NBA

ahh, i feel much better now that i got that off my chest

i think the spurs need to blow it up, the only untouchables are parker and duncan, manu is fun, but he's old (in that his career is already on the downhill side), fragile, reckless, good for only 20 minutes a game, and expensive.
Duncan is the cornerstone and parker is the future with yet-unrealized potential. the spurs need to surround these 2 with youth, good shooters, athleticism, and rebounding, cause duncan just can't jump anymore.

we need c. maggette!!!!!!

By 2012 you were ready to chuck TP too:


well, I knew they wouldn't contend for a championship, and I was rabble rabbling that they should trade Manu and TP while they still had value


You suck vander...

[DPG21920]

In that same regard, the plan last season was to a) bring Duncan back at all costs b) bring back Green and Diaw while staying under the tax line. Yet, they still negotiated with Duncan last. It's not like they went to him and said, "Please take $10 Million so we can re-sign the other guys." Duncan was just like, "Do what you need to do," and pretty much just kicked back and signed his contract when the time came.

Ginobili seemed to have a similar approach, heading off to another country during the opening days of free agency. He came back and promptly signed a deal. If they were trying to fit him and AK in the cap space, we'd've seen reports that the team was negotiating with AK's agent already. It wouldn't make sense to have Ginobili take $5 Million so the team could offer AK $8 Million, and then AK only needing $6 Million to sign. Then Ginobili would have given up that money for nothing.

Wasn't it reported that they spoke with Duncan first and he said I will take what's left after the team needs are filled? Manu's contract has seemingly come first. But yes, I agree with the last part. That is what we have to see. There is a reason many of us feel that the money the Spurs have now will not be enough to get AK. We could be wrong obviously as it's speculation at this point

[DPG21920]

What you're saying is some people have a better track record speculating than others. That's fine.

It's still speculation though. For all we know, it's just as likely the Spurs were never interested in AK, and this was his agent trying to prop up his client's value.

So the question really is, how do you start spreading blame when you don't even know what transpired?

Well I guess I just am ok with logic and using what info is available to make a decision. Do you sometimes end up wrong (sure and in my case it can be often that I am wrong)? We are discussing based on what we know what things appear to be. Of course, as I have said, it could end up moot. It could also end up correct.

[ElNono]

the SPURS are spoiled and lucky, and us fans deserve to have that luck utilized effectively, not pissed away.

the spurs getting duncan in 97 would be like miami getting greg oden next draft, if the NBA had a normal draft instead of that gay lottery, Duncan would have been a celtic.

so everyone who is so quick to praise RC and pop, what did they really do? who was their best FA signing, or even a good one (outside of Bowen)? Anderson? Rasho?

it is of my opinion that a team who has one of the best power forwards of all time fall into their lap undeservedly should have more then 3 championships to show for it 10 years later. just look back on all the FA failures this team has had over Duncan's tenure. only one player has worked out (bowen) among all of them, anderson, daniels, smith, rasho, van exel, and on and on, and on.

also pop needs to add to that archaic offensive play calling, it's like the martyball of the NBA

ahh, i feel much better now that i got that off my chest

i think the spurs need to blow it up, the only untouchables are parker and duncan, manu is fun, but he's old (in that his career is already on the downhill side), fragile, reckless, good for only 20 minutes a game, and expensive.
Duncan is the cornerstone and parker is the future with yet-unrealized potential. the spurs need to surround these 2 with youth, good shooters, athleticism, and rebounding, cause duncan just can't jump anymore.

we need c. maggette!!!!!!

:lol I'm just re-reading this post and it's full of hilarity...

[Mugen]

:lol I don't think people were this upset when the Spurs gave RJ 4yr/40 million tbh.

[PlayNando]

TD is the team
Pathetic.

[HI-FI]

:lol I don't think people were this upset when the Spurs gave RJ 4yr/40 million tbh.

:lol
true. to be fair, i don't think RJ had just come off his worst season and played like epic shit in the Finals either.

[ElNono]

Well I guess I just am ok with logic and using what info is available to make a decision. Do you sometimes end up wrong (sure and in my case it can be often that I am wrong)? We are discussing based on what we know what things appear to be. Of course, as I have said, it could end up moot. It could also end up correct.

DPG, you're a reasonable guy, that's why I'm surprised you're saying "logic and using what info is available", because as far as the AK case is concerned, there was zero, zilch info available. There still is zero info available.

Actually, if you recall the first few news about Manu is that the FO wasn't even talking to him, and they were in no rush to get things done. Which IMO means, something didn't work out the way the FO wanted, and they just signed up their guys.

Also speculation, but also "logic and using what info is available"...

[PlayNando]

:lol I don't think people were this upset when the Spurs gave RJ 4yr/40 million tbh.

Yup. And Captain JACKass made $10 million last year and did NOTHING.

[ElNono]

:lol I don't think people were this upset when the Spurs gave RJ 4yr/40 million tbh.

:lol i was

[DPG21920]

DPG, you're a reasonable guy, that's why I'm surprised you're saying "logic and using what info is available", because as far as the AK case is concerned, there was zero, zilch info available. There still is zero info available.

Actually, if you recall the first few news about Manu is that the FO wasn't even talking to him, and they were in no ruch to get things done. Which IMO means, something didn't work out the way the FO wanted, and they just signed up their guys.

Also speculation, but also "logic and using what info is available"...

Of course there is info available. You look at what is old contracts were, what he opted out of, what similar quality players normally go for, what teams have money to offer...Plus a credible sport writer mentioned the Spurs very specifically (you may not see him as that, which is fine, but I do). Plenty of info out there to form a pretty educated decision. Unless you are saying guys like Bruno, myself and Timvp just wildly speculate without a lot of concern for reality?

[Chinook]

:lol
true. to be fair, i don't think RJ had just come off his worst season and played like epic shit in the Finals either.

Had had come off his worst season (at the time; they've just gotten worse since then), but he didn't mess up in the Finals. He was one of the reasons the Spurs got swept in the WCSF that year.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

" WE NEED COREY MAGGETTE!!!! "

That says it all really about the rational of many of the haters.

That's what the inane stuff that the current ones keep repeating will also look like eventually (for those not seeing it for what stupidity it is already).

[TheGoldStandard]

" WE NEED COREY MAGGETTE!!!! "

That says it all really about the rational of many of the haters.

That's what the inane stuff that the current ones keep repeating will also look like eventually.

The Spurs like him, they've targeted him in the past.. lol

[DPG21920]

:lol I don't think people were this upset when the Spurs gave RJ 4yr/40 million tbh.

I hope people don't confuse my enthusiasm on the subject as being upset. I made my point on Manu and my feelings toward him known with regards to the finals performance and how I viewed him. Despite that, I always said I wanted him back.

I am not upset at this as much as I am a little disappointed in the possible ramifications. But overall, as I have been saying, things could still definitely work out in which case his contract is moot. My main point always was, I will only be upset if this contract in reality leads to the Spurs missing out on adding to the team. If it doesn't and they can still get their main targets, then I really don't care what Manu makes. I even said I think that in a bubble, its a market value contract.

[DMX7]

:lol i was

So was I.

[Mugen]

I hope people don't confuse my enthusiasm on the subject as being upset. I made my point on Manu and my feelings toward him known with regards to the finals performance and how I viewed him. Despite that, I always said I wanted him back.

I am not upset at this as much as I am a little disappointed in the possible ramifications. But overall, as I have been saying, things could still definitely work out in which case his contract is moot. My main point always was, I will only be upset if this contract in reality leads to the Spurs missing out on adding to the team. If it doesn't and they can still get their main targets, then I really don't care what Manu makes. I even said I think that in a bubble, its a market value contract.

Valid argument. Happy 4th, Deeps.

[DJR210]

Same team with a TBD lower tier FA for next year.

OKC took a step back. LA is older, and will lose Howard. Clippers will be better, Warriors will be more experienced, and Grizzlies will seek revenge.

Spurs will have a tough time getting back to the Finals.

[Chinook]

Of course there is info available. You look at what is old contracts were, what he opted out of, what similar quality players normally go for, what teams have money to offer...Plus a credible sport writer mentioned the Spurs very specifically (you may not see him as that, which is fine, but I do). Plenty of info out there to form a pretty educated decision. Unless you are saying guys like Bruno, myself and Timvp just wildly speculate without a lot of concern for reality?

But until he signs somewhere, we have no idea what any of that means. He could still sign in San Antonio for the MLE. He could sign there through a sign-and-trade. He could sign with a team like Atlanta for big bucks. He could sign with a contender for the MLE/mMLE/RE. Any of those scenarios playing out would point to Ginobili's deal not being a factor. The only way Ginobili looks at fault is if he for a deal that starts between $7-9 Million with a team other than the Spurs or Wolves. Even then, there remains the distinct possibility that the Spurs just didn't want him.

[ElNono]

Of course there is info available. You look at what is old contracts were, what he opted out of, what similar quality players normally go for, what teams have money to offer...Plus a credible sport writer mentioned the Spurs very specifically (you may not see him as that, which is fine, but I do). Plenty of info out there to form a pretty educated decision. Unless you are saying guys like Bruno, myself and Timvp just wildly speculate without a lot of concern for reality?

Outside a report that the Spurs were allegedly seriously interested in AK, what else did you hear?

Did you hear anything from Kirilenko or Kirilenko's camp? Anything from the Spurs' camp? What is AK looking for? What "logic" and "information" do you use to determine that?

Everyone speculates. I do too. It's just speculation.

[DPG21920]

Valid argument. Happy 4th, Deeps.

May a million bald eagles adorn your rooftop and fireworks light the way on this glorious occasion. God bless you and your family.

[ElNono]

I hope people don't confuse my enthusiasm on the subject as being upset. I made my point on Manu and my feelings toward him known with regards to the finals performance and how I viewed him. Despite that, I always said I wanted him back.

I am not upset at this as much as I am a little disappointed in the possible ramifications. But overall, as I have been saying, things could still definitely work out in which case his contract is moot. My main point always was, I will only be upset if this contract in reality leads to the Spurs missing out on adding to the team. If it doesn't and they can still get their main targets, then I really don't care what Manu makes. I even said I think that in a bubble, its a market value contract.

I know you're not upset :lol

I wouldn't want to bring DaPointGuard out to da paint...

[Robz4000]

Same team with a TBD lower tier FA for next year.

OKC took a step back. LA is older, and will lose Howard. Clippers will be better, Warriors will be more experienced, and Grizzlies will seek revenge.

Spurs will have a tough time getting back to the Finals.

Grizz will be worse, Clippers got better but the Spurs will have an easier time beating them if they meet, and the Warriors got ridiculously hot for a series and a half. West is still there for the taking if the Spurs stay healthy and get internal improvements from Leonard, Green, Splitter, CoJo, and Nando.

[DPG21920]

Outside a report that the Spurs were allegedly seriously interested in AK, what else did you hear?

Did you hear anything from Kirilenko or Kirilenko's camp? Anything from the Spurs' camp? What is AK looking for? What "logic" and "information" do you use to determine that?

Everyone speculates. I do too. It's just speculation.

Well again, I feel this is semantics (perhaps this word does not mean what I think it means). Its the same way I came up with Manu's deal. It's based on past and present factors. To me there is a difference in speculation and educated guesses, I guess.

[ElNono]

Well again, I feel this is semantics (perhaps this word does not mean what I think it means). Its the same way I came up with Manu's deal. It's based on past and present factors. To me there is a difference in speculation and educated guesses, I guess.

Happy 4th :toast

[Strategic]

Not sure he took his role with the team very serious at 14 mil. this year, maybe at 7 next year he will?

[DPG21920]

Happy 4th :toast

May the Eagles that adorn Mugen's roof top, swoop down in a blaze of glory to guide you down the triumphant streets of freedom, liberty and justice. May hot dogs, ice cream and ice cold American beer fill your belly full of happiness while you sing the songs of this wonderful country hand-in-hand with neighbors of all race, creed and social stature.

[ElNono]

May the Eagles that adorn Mugen's roof top, swoop down in a blaze of glory to guide you down the triumphant streets of freedom, liberty and justice. May hot dogs, ice cream and ice cold American beer fill your belly full of happiness while you sing the songs of this wonderful country hand-in-hand with neighbors of all race, creed and social stature.

phenomenal.. gonna add it to the independence day thread...

[Mel_13]

Well again, I feel this is semantics (perhaps this word does not mean what I think it means). Its the same way I came up with Manu's deal. It's based on past and present factors. To me there is a difference in speculation and educated guesses, I guess.

:lol

Now there's a possibility. When someone says "that's just semantics", I take that to mean that they believe that there is no substantial difference among the things being discussed. That it's just a matter of different words saying the same things.

So when I say "it's more than just semantics" in response to you, I am asserting a belief that the things being discussed are substantially different. That it's more than different words to describe the same thing.

I have no idea whether this actually helps at all, but I'm trying. It can be difficult to know if meanings are being fully understood using this form of communication.