joe johnson to atlanta

[csw225]

espn's marc stein reported that the suns will trade joe johnson to the hawks for boris diaw and 2 future 1st round picks

[exstatic]

They're screwed if this is true. They'd better pray that Dallas doesn't swing a deal with Orlando for Finley. If they don't get Finley, they're down 400 made 3 pointers before the season starts, between losing Q and JJ.

[Streakyshooter08]

If that is true, I think Phoenix won't be as good as last year. But getting 2 future 1st round picks from ATLANTA is not bad...

[Kori Ellis]

Was this on ESPN News?

[kolko]

link?

[TexasAggie2005]

Phoenix will be okay, a lot of those threes are a result of the system. Same reason Texas Tech quarterbacks looks so great every year. After all, how much did any of us know about Joe Johnson or Quentin Richardson before last year? They'll find someone to plug in there, especially with Atlanta's first rounders the next couple years. We all know where Atlanta's picks are in the draft order. Plus this way, they don't burn a lot of salary signing a guy who's not worth it. I like the deal for Phoenix.

[csw225]

it was on espnews, i was watching because of the mlb trade deadline and it just came outta nowhere

[Twisted_Dawg]

They're screwed if this is true. They'd better pray that Dallas doesn't swing a deal with Orlando for Finley. If they don't get Finley, they're down 400 made 3 pointers before the season starts, between losing Q and JJ.

For the last time......unless some other team has an equally awful contract as Finley, to trade back to Dallas........Dallas will be unable to trade Finley. Period.

[picnroll]

Looks like one of the picks is the one that went from the Lakers to Celtics then to Atlanta. This should help them sign Finley, free up PT and make him feel like a bigger cog in the wheel. Now Cuban has to do his part and somehow trade Finley East.

[exstatic]

Those draft picks don't show up for a few years, and probably don't amount to much until a few years after that. Who's going to make those "system" threes next year? Finley? Maybe some of them, if they get him. Diaw? Fuggetaboutit. He SUCKS from beyond the arc, no matter what system you throw him in. Amare is in for a wakeup call by the name of collapsing defenses.

[TexasAggie2005]

For the last time......unless some other team has an equally awful contract as Finley, to trade back to Dallas........Dallas will be unable to trade Finley. Period.

I thought if you were under the cap you could absorb more salary. I don't know what would be in this for Orlando (draft picks?), but I'm sure something is at least remotely possible. Cuban's been working on trade deals for a while so that he doesn't lose Finley to a contender.

[mavsfan1000]

Good move by Phoenix. They are loaded for the future with picks and young talent. They can still sign more to.

[TexasAggie2005]

Those draft picks don't show up for a few years, and probably don't amount to much until a few years after that. Who's going to make those "system" threes next year? Finley? Maybe some of them, if they get him. Diaw? Fuggetaboutit. He SUCKS from beyond the arc, no matter what system you throw him in. Amare is in for a wakeup call by the name of collapsing defenses.

Those draft picks are also very tradeable, as is Diaw, in the case they can't find someone cheap this offseason. And with them not signing Johnson, they have money to sign a decent shooter. You don't need Michael Redd when all of those are transition, wide-open shots. If Atlanta throws in Salim Stoudamire, I could see him getting some PT in Phoenix.

[exstatic]

For the last time......unless some other team has an equally awful contract as Finley, to trade back to Dallas........Dallas will be unable to trade Finley. Period.

OK, for the last time, what happens if Orlando and Dallas swap Finley and GHill? Each team then cuts their new player, and they go back to their original team, and both teams are off the hook for the lux tax payment for their original player?

[picnroll]

I'm not sure but I think that LA pick was only protected through 10 next year and 5 the following. LA could suck the next couple of years so it could be a pretty decent pick.

[Twisted_Dawg]

And to think Phoenix balked at Johnson's demand at $50 million this summer....AND Phoenix and Johnson were reportedly ONLY $5 million apart last fall on an extension (presumeably for far less than $50 million)......I have to think Phoenix really blew this one big time. Not sure he is worth $70 million, but he is definitely worth $50 million and would have been a steal had they locked him last fall.

Thank God the Spurs didnt get stupid with Manu and Parker.

[NASHville]

Wrong move.
Keeping Joe Johnson is a key for the Suns to win it all.
Proves again that this is indeed a players league.
I hope ESPN is wrong on this one.

[Kori Ellis]

For the last time......unless some other team has an equally awful contract as Finley, to trade back to Dallas........Dallas will be unable to trade Finley. Period.

Salaries don't have to match if he's traded to a team under the cap.

[exstatic]

Diaw is not a particularly tradable asset, and if ATL were going to "throw in" Salim, I think it would have been mentioned. I still say PHO is screwed next year.

[picnroll]

OK, for the last time, what happens if Orlando and Dallas swap Finley and GHill? Each team then cuts their new player, and they go back to their original team, and both teams are off the hook for the lux tax payment for their original player?
Hill is two years $31 or so million and Finley over $51 million. Orlando would be assuming a lot more salary.

[ChumpDumper]

OK, for the last time, what happens if Orlando and Dallas swap Finley and GHill? Each team then cuts their new player, and they go back to their original team, and both teams are off the hook for the lux tax payment for their original player?Players traded now can't be cut for amnesty purposes.

[TexasAggie2005]

Diaw is not a particularly tradable asset, and if ATL were going to "throw in" Salim, I think it would have been mentioned. I still say PHO is screwed next year.

And I maintain that it's better than the alternatives of resigning him or him walking. They can't afford to sign him to a $70 million contract with Amare's extension coming up. This way, they maintain salary flexibility and don't overpay for a guy who's not worth it. Be honest, Johnson's not worth that much money. Atlanta's overpaying because they're stupid. It's why they're in the cellar every year, even though they get top three picks every year. They're also now getting something out of it instead of just losing him for nothing.

Why isn't Diaw tradeable? Do you know something about him I don't? I've had to read plenty of stupid comments on here about trading Rasho for him. And the Salim comment was just an offhand comment. BUT, since none of us know anything about the deal yet and it's not final, who knows? In baseball, guys like that get thrown in as filler at the last minute all the time. I think he'd be a good fit in Phoenix.

[clubalien]

nets will have a better record then suns
in the words of dusty
"its a lock"

[Twisted_Dawg]

Salaries don't have to match if he's traded to a team under the cap.

Very True. My point is that no team in their right mind will trade for a 33 year old player with 3 years left on a contract making $51 million. Particularly a player that is now getting injury prone and his play is deteriorating. No team uder the cap is going tot rade for that contract and send a player or pick(s).

The ONLY way Finely will be traded is to trade him to a team that has a player with an existing bad contract. Dallas is the source about trading Finley.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Why isn't Diaw tradeable?

Because he sucks.

I don't see anyone trading for Finley's albatross of a contract. But Spurs fans should get used to the idea of Finley running the three for the Suns after Cuban waives him, that seems like all but a lock with this move.

[Mavs<Spurs]

They're screwed if this is true. They'd better pray that Dallas doesn't swing a deal with Orlando for Finley. If they don't get Finley, they're down 400 made 3 pointers before the season starts, between losing Q and JJ.

\
excellent point, knew that they would be losing two important pieces, but I didn't think of in that way (how many made 3 pointers they are giving up). As you are implying, 3 point shooting was a vital part of their offense last year as we all know (most 3's made, most 3's attempted, free flowing offense...).
:fro

[TexasAggie2005]

nets will have a better record then suns
in the words of dusty
"its a lock"

The Nets play in the Eastern conference, which makes this somewhat more plausible, but still very unlikely. Has everyone forgotten Amare, Nash, and Marion still play for the Suns? If you're trying to say the Nets will be better than the Suns, you're nuts. The trades the Suns have been pulling will give them enough room to sign a decent shooter or two.

By the way, why doesn't ESPN.com have anything on this yet? Not saying the OP is making this up, but this doesn't look close to done.

EDIT: nm, apparently it just came up

[goliath]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120960

It appears that Joe Johnson's wish to swap a supporting role in Phoenix for star status in Atlanta is on the verge of being granted.

Joe Johnson
Guard-Forward
Phoenix Suns
Profile


2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
82 17.1 5.1 3.5 .461 .750



NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com that the Suns and Hawks have locked into serious trade discussions that could send Johnson to the Eastern Conference via sign-and-trade as early as Tuesday afternoon.

The proposed deal, according to sources, would bring guard Boris Diaw and two future first-round picks to Phoenix -- along with a trade exception in the $5 million range -- after Johnson signs a contract under terms established by Atlanta: $70 million over five years with an estimated balloon payment of $20 million up front.

Johnson, a restricted free agent, has been planning for weeks to sign a five-year, $70 million offer sheet from Atlanta as soon as the league's moratorium on signings is lifted Tuesday at noon. On Thursday, Johnson stunned Suns managing partner Robert Sarver by asking Sarver directly not to match the offer, telling his boss that he prefers to continue his career as a Hawk. On Friday, at teammate Steve Nash's charity game in Toronto, Johnson revealed the request to ESPN.com and spoke excitedly about the opportunity to play point guard with the Hawks.

After maintaining for weeks that it would match any offer sheet Johnson signs, Phoenix chose a new course this weekend, ultimately deciding it was better for team chemistry to pursue a sign-and-trade with Atlanta instead of investing huge sums in a player who wants to leave.

Johnson's increasingly imminent departure is a coup for the desperate Hawks and an undeniable blow to the Suns, who have long considered the versatile swingman no less critical to last season's overwhelming success than any of their three All-Stars: Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash. Next to Nash, the league's newly minted MVP, Johnson was the only other dependable playmaker on a 62-win team and shot a deadly 47.8 percent from 3-point range.

Phoenix, though, has always liked Diaw, a rugged defender and underrated ballhandler from France, and sees him as part of a three- or four-man platoon to replace Johnson, who desires a bigger role than he can have with the star-laden Suns.

Phoenix struck a verbal agreement with Utah's Raja Bell, another defensive specialist with an underrated offensive game, on the first day of free agency. It also still has swingman Jim Jackson, who filled in ably for Johnson during a second-round dismissal of Dallas.

Johnson's exit would likewise spark the Suns to intensify their pursuit of the Dallas Mavericks' Michael Finley. Dallas is expected to waive Finley via the new "amnesty clause" that gives teams a one-time opportunity to release a player without paying any further luxury tax on his contract, unless the Mavericks can trade Finley to an Eastern Conference team before the Aug. 15 deadline for using the amnesty

As an amnesty casualty, Finley would still receive what's left on his Mavericks contract (nearly $52 million) and also have the opportunity to choose his next team in free agency. The list of teams lining up to bid for Finley is a long one, featuring NBA Finals foes San Antonio and Detroit and virtually every other playoff contender in the league, but Phoenix possesses a couple of recruiting advantages.

Finley is received warmly by Suns fans to this day, after Phoenix drafted him No. 21 overall in 1995. The 32-year-old will also be lobbied hard by Nash, who remains one of his closest friends in the league -- along with Dirk Nowitzki -- after the trio's long run together in Dallas. Finley joined Johnson in attendance at Nash's charity game in Toronto, even though his ongoing recovery from June ankle surgery prevented him from playing.

The concern for the Suns is that, with only limited free-agent resources left this summer, they'll be outbid for Finley by most of his suitors.

Landing Johnson, meanwhile, ranks as a huge catch for Hawks general manager Billy Knight, who has struggled since last summer to convert his considerable salary-cap space into a marquee acquisition. Having whiffed a year ago in its attempts to score free agents such as Kenyon Martin and Erick Dampier, Atlanta has been quietly optimistic that it would be able to import Johnson as a point guard to team with its cadre of young swingmen: Al Harrington, Josh Childress, Josh Smith and Marvin Williams, selected No. 2 overall in the recent draft.

"I love the idea," Johnson told ESPN.com on Friday. "I'd love that, having the ball in my hands. I think I'm a great shooter, but that's where I think I'm most effective, making decisions."

In his first extended interview about his future since free agency began Friday, Johnson said his desire to leave the Suns involves "a lot of things," starting with contentious negotiations on a contract extension last October that broke off with sides about $5 million apart. Johnson was rankled further earlier this month when, after a breakout season for himself and the team, Phoenix offered only $60 million over six years.

Yet sources close to the situation also insist that Johnson is most unhappy with what he perceives as his standing as a "fourth wheel" behind Stoudemire, Marion and especially Nash. The native of nearby Arkansas would instantly have his own team to run in Atlanta and become a franchise face for a club teeming with inexperience.

Because the Hawks are so far under the salary cap, and because Johnson will become a base-year compensation player after signing his new deal, Phoenix won't be required in a trade to take back contracts in the neighborhood of Johnson's first-year salary of $12 million. Diaw has two seasons left on his contract totaling just over $3 million.

On top of the draft picks in the deal, the trade exception -- good for one year -- gives Phoenix the ability to take back more salary in a future trade than it gives up and thus provides another vehicle for acquiring a contributor.

Given Sarver's stated aversion to letting his annual payroll stray far beyond $50 million, replacing Johnson with Bell, Diaw, two draft picks, a trade exception and perhaps even Finley (if the Suns are so fortunate) holds considerable appeal. Although sources insist that Sarver was intent on matching an offer sheet to Johnson, doing so would have put Phoenix in the rare position of carrying four players who earn roughly $50 million by themselves, with Stoudemire soon to receive a maximum contract extension that would kick in starting with the 2006-07 season. And Kurt Thomas, another recent acquisition from New York in a trade for Quentin Richardson, has three seasons left on his deal at an average of more than $7 million.

"You've got to go where you're comfortable," Johnson said Friday in explaining his wish to swap Phoenix for Atlanta.

With the Hawks unable to sign the restricted free agent outright, a sign-and-trade has emerged as the most comfortable compromise for Johnson and the two teams involved.

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here. Also, click here to send a question for possible use on ESPNEWS.

[ChumpDumper]

The proposed deal, according to sources, would bring guard Boris Diaw and two future first-round picks to Phoenix -- along with a trade exception in the $5 million rangeWhy would the exception be in the $5 million range if the difference in salaries is over $10 million?

Nevermind -- JJ is base year, that's why.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Diaw is not a particularly tradable asset, and if ATL were going to "throw in" Salim, I think it would have been mentioned. I still say PHO is screwed next year.


Agreed. Marion's production was related to the type of offense that Phoenix ran. He is not a guy you run plays for. They came in the midst of that run n gun offense. The 3 point shooting was a vital part of that offense. Plus, Kurt Thomas is not going to fit in with the type of offense they had last year. Is Hunter their center now? They got away with a small line up due to the type of offense they ran. Now, they have essentially scrapped that system without replacing it with a conventional offense. At least for this year, they are not going to be nearly as good as they were last year. Major problems!
IMO, they have made major mistakes this summer and have taken big steps backwards. I don't get this at all! They should have resigned Joe last year to prevent future problems in resigning Amare.
?????!!!!!
:fro

[Streakyshooter08]

The Suns would still have:

Thomas/ ???
Amare/ Padgett
Marion/Diaw
Jackson/ Bell
Nash/ Barbosa

That is not that bad...

[TexasAggie2005]

Diaw is not a particularly tradable asset,

I love how you say Diaw is not tradeable AS HE IS BEING TRADED.

[ChumpDumper]

Two first rounders from the worst team in basketball make anyone tradeable.

[TexasAggie2005]

Two first rounders from the worst team in basketball make anyone tradeable.

Would you take Michael Finley with those two first rounders from Atlanta? My only point was that if they have to trade for a shooter they have assets, including Diaw AND those two first rounders (granted, mainly the two first rounders).

[ChumpDumper]

granted, mainly the two first roundersThat's all you need to know.

[angel_luv]

Just to be clear... does this Johnson to the Hawks move ensure that there is no room for Rasho in basketball purgatory?!???

[TexasAggie2005]

That's all you need to know.

What the hell? Just because the two first rounders are more valuable doesn't mean Diaw is chopped liver. Why is Atlanta even including him if he's not worth anything?

[T Park]

Just to be clear... does this Johnson to the Hawks move ensure that there is no room for Rasho in basketball purgatory?!???

More than likely, because the Hawks shipped out Diaw.

Looking more and more like Rasho aint goin nowhere.

[Kori Ellis]

More than likely, because the Hawks shipped out Diaw.

Looking more and more like Rasho aint goin nowhere.

They are still looking for a center. And now with Joe Johnson there, one of their other swingmen seems more expendable. So I would think it's MORE likely now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

nets will have a better record then suns
in the words of dusty
"its a lock"

If you're going to quote that oral rash, I'd just as soon see you quit posting here.


What the hell? Just because the two first rounders are more valuable doesn't mean Diaw is chopped liver. Why is Atlanta even including him if he's not worth anything?

Dude, don't take this the wrong way, but you're making my alma mater look bad right now. The tradeable assets in this deal are the draft picks.

Why is Atlanta including him? Because there's a little thing called a collective bargaining agreement that all trades have to adhere to, and Diaw's salary makes this deal work.

They aren't trading Diaw to Phoenix to give Phoenix a player, they're trading Diaw to Phoenix to get the contract/salary financials to line up.

[ChumpDumper]

Why is Atlanta even including him if he's not worth anything?The article said the Suns like him -- the Hawks certainly had no use for him.
Just to be clear... does this Johnson to the Hawks move ensure that there is no room for Rasho in basketball purgatory?!???Not quite yet, but guys like Curry are still in play.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

More than likely, because the Hawks shipped out Diaw.

Looking more and more like Rasho aint goin nowhere.


I'd say on the contrary, this move makes a Rasho deal to Atlanta for one of their swingmen much more likely.

[Kori Ellis]

I'd say on the contrary, this move makes a Rasho deal to Atlanta for one of their swingmen much more likely.

Don't copy my posts :)

[T Park]

They just swapped swingman for swingman.

There is no surplus.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yes ma'am. :lol

Great minds think alike.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Tpark, they just swapped an end of bench swingman for a guy (Johnson) who is now their best swingman.

You make it out like this is a scrub for scrub deal. It's not. Come on man, you're smarter than this.

[Kori Ellis]

They just swapped swingman for swingman.

There is no surplus.

They gained a swingman that needs more playing time than Diaw did.

They still have both Josh's, Harrington, Donta Smith, and now JJohnson. They say that JJohnson is going to play the point there, but who knows.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know about "more likely" -- it's pretty clear they want Johnson to play the point. Given they have a bit more cap space than they had pencilled in for a center before the trade, they may still make a run at someone like Curry or Steven Hunter.

[T Park]

suns are fucking stupid

How so, Johnson was leaving anyways, they got back a DEFENSIVE swingman.

Making a good situation out of worse one imo.

[ChumpDumper]

Those picks are going to help keep payroll down in the near future as well. If they are able to pick up Finley, the Suns might be alright.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Tpark,

Give it up. The Suns are going to get Finley. The only defense Diaw is going to be playing is in practice.

[Gino2882]

Looks like a win win for both teams. And Joe Johnson was a better player last year than Marion.

JJ is a TREMENDOUS talent and can play 3 positions.

[T Park]

The Suns are going to get Finley

I thought Dallas changed their minds about waiving him and are expoloring trades now.

[mavsfan1000]

I heard Dallas is looking to trade Finley for Battie and Christie.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know why Orlando would do that trade, especially if Francis is moving to SG.

[T Park]

I heard Dallas is looking to trade Finley for Battie and Christie.

I heard that a little while back too.

Supposedly there might be a hangup, but its not a big one.

90% chance it gets done.

If it does, Orlando goes to the playoffs and Phoenix gets hurt bigtime.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

So does this mean that all the damn speculation is finally over? Thank goodness! I know that things are slow over the summer around here but I was getting particularly tired of this drama.

I just don't see how this is going to help either team really. The Hawks get a massive contract for a guy they want at point guard. That's all fine and dandy except that the offensive system in Phoenix completely centered around running the transition game. I think the Hawks are going to be sorely disapointed if they're looking for a guy to run any kind of half court offense. Meanwhile the Suns are overhauling this team so much that I don't know how on Earth they are going to match their success last year. I know that there's talk about how they're going to switch the system up, put more emphasis on defense, but I wonder just how possible that is with the current coaching staff. What I saw from the Suns last year was a team that was maybe a year away from being seriously dangerous. Now I really don't know. And I wonder if this move is going to help keep Amare at all. When his contract comes up this move has freed up some money for him, but what kind of team would he be returning to? One with an aging Nash, Jackson, and Finley coupled with the questions marks of those draft picks.

The Suns are going backwards this offseason, and I question just how much of a leap forward JJ is going to take the Hawks.

[T Park]

I don't know why Orlando would do that trade

To give them a bench.

Howard
C
Hill
Nelson
Francis

Finley
Turkoglu


thats a solid 7 guys.


Depth my friend, plus Finley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Christie

[T Park]

And I wonder if this move is going to help keep Amare at all

Who is he gonna go to???

No one else I don't think will have the money to sign this guy.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I thought Dallas changed their minds about waiving him and are expoloring trades now.

Of course _allas, would who wouldn't?


I heard that a little while back too.

Supposedly there might be a hangup,

Yeah, common sense.

90%? I'd love to see your source on that one.

They can build a bench for a lot cheaper than 17 million a year.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Who is he gonna go to???

No one else I don't think will have the money to sign this guy.

The Lakers are clearing cap space to make a run at him.

I'm sure there will be some other teams out there with cap room too.

[TexasAggie2005]

If you're going to quote that oral rash, I'd just as soon see you quit posting here.



Dude, don't take this the wrong way, but you're making my alma mater look bad right now. The tradeable assets in this deal are the draft picks.

Why is Atlanta including him? Because there's a little thing called a collective bargaining agreement that all trades have to adhere to, and Diaw's salary makes this deal work.

They aren't trading Diaw to Phoenix to give Phoenix a player, they're trading Diaw to Phoenix to get the contract/salary financials to line up.

If you're going to insult me, don't preface it by "don't take this the wrong way", because how else am I going to take an insult?

And you're making yourself look bad. Both the draft picks and Diaw are tradeable, he's a decent player. The Suns apparently want him. And Diaw's salary has nothing to do with making the deal work, the Hawks are way under the cap. Be a little more intelligent before you insult other people.

[angel_luv]

More than likely, because the Hawks shipped out Diaw.

Looking more and more like Rasho aint goin nowhere.



They are still looking for a center. And now with Joe Johnson there, one of their other swingmen seems more expendable. So I would think it's MORE likely now.



42 minutes of happy and now right back to where I started :pctoss

[TexasAggie2005]

42 minutes of happy and now right back to where I started :pctoss

It's ok, I don't know that it necessarily makes it more likely. The Hawks are less likely to want another big salary now and they can't trade us Diaw anymore. A trade still might happen, but I don't see how this trade makes it more likely. Johnson's not adding to their glut of swingmen, they're using him at point.

[picnroll]

Rasho and Scola for either Smith. Hawks can afford to buy Scola's contract out.

[angel_luv]

It's ok, I don't know that it necessarily makes it more likely. The Hawks are less likely to want another big salary now and they can't trade us Diaw anymore. A trade still might happen, but I don't see how this trade makes it more likely. Johnson's not adding to their glut of swingmen, they're using him at point.


:elephant And I'm back! :elephant

:D Hope on! :D

[baseline bum]

Man, Phoenix was in a lose-lose situation. Losing Johnson will kill their offense. No Q, No JJ... they're fucked. They can't shoot the three in transition any more.

Of course, matching that deal would have been twice as bad. There is no way in hell Joe Johnson is worth anything close to that kind of money. This is one of those deals you're going to look at in 2 years and wonder what in the hell Atlanta was smoking to offer such an asinine amount to this guy. You can't tell me he's $17 million better than Manu, on a contract that's also one year shorter. If I was Phoenix's GM I would have let his ass walk too. Johnson is no Nash, Stoudemire, or Marion.

[T Park]

90%? I'd love to see your source on that one

Where is your source for Rasho is goin somewhere else.

Oh BTW, its Mychael Thompson on local LA radio here, good friends with Laker brass, so Im sure they have heard it.

Dont like it, shove it.

[T Park]

The Hawks are less likely to want another big salary now

For bigmen Nesterovic is a midlevel salary.

Jerome James will be making more than him. COME ON.

[Mr. Body]

Atlanta would be silly to take on Rasho. Look at the team style coming up. They're going to go sleek and fast. They're not expecting to contend just yet, so will expect to take their lumps inside. Instead they'll go for a fan-base - finally - and run it up and down as much as they can with athletic wingmen. A Nesterovic sludges that up.

It's a pure pipe dream to get rid of Rasho to the Hawks. They'd be crazy to do it. If anything, they'll bid for a younger, more athletic center like Stephen Hunter, then be done with it whether they get him or not.

[T Park]

Atlanta would be silly to take on Rasho. Look at the team style coming up. They're going to go sleek and fast. They're not expecting to contend just yet, so will expect to take their lumps inside. Instead they'll go for a fan-base - finally - and run it up and down as much as they can with athletic wingmen. A Nesterovic sludges that up

What gets a running game going better than a great defensive center that blocks shots?

Guess not.

Yeah Stephen Hunter, whats he average about 4 points 3 boards a game??

A guy that Steve Nash made look good, and will really show his true colors outside of Phoenix if he leaves.

[Kori Ellis]

It's a pure pipe dream to get rid of Rasho to the Hawks. They'd be crazy to do it. If anything, they'll bid for a younger, more athletic center like Stephen Hunter, then be done with it whether they get him or not.

If they don't get Hunter (or someone like him), then they'd just roll with Collins as their only big?

[angel_luv]

What gets a running game going better than a great defensive center that blocks shots?


Looks like I can officially welcome you back to the Rasho fan club.

True, T-Park?

[BillsCarnage]

The Lakers are clearing cap space to make a run at him.

I'm sure there will be some other teams out there with cap room too.

The only way this happens is if Amare turns down the Suns max offer in a few weeks.

[picnroll]

I'm rooting for the Suns to resign Amare. Anybody but those $%#@ Lakers.

[T Park]

Looks like I can officially welcome you back to the Rasho fan club.

True, T-Park?

I never left.

But I still like Mohammed's game more than his.

Ive said all along Nesterovic was the best available, I just didnt think Thomas was stupid enough to trade Nazr.

Ive never left Rasho's fan club, Id love for him to stay, but if getting that young long three is what it takes, adios Rasho.

[timvp]

I think this just ended the PHX as contenders.

R.I.P.

Over the summer they've gotten slower, worse shooting and worse passing. Those were the three areas they used to hurt the Spurs. Now Bowen can lock down Marion (doesn't have to worry about JJohnson), Manu can guard whoever they put at shooting guard and the Spurs' front line is still better and bigger than their front line. Not to mention that Parker plays Nash about as well as anyone in the league.

The Suns were stupid this summer. The only way they were going to eclipse the Spurs was if they added even more shooters and even more open court players. Now they are trying to be like the Spurs, except the Spurs will be better at playing Spurs basketball than the Suns.

And if the Suns ever adapt to slower basketball in a couple seasons, Nash will be done.


R.I.P.
Phoenix Suns As Title Contenders
2005-2005

[TexasAggie2005]

For bigmen Nesterovic is a midlevel salary.

Jerome James will be making more than him. COME ON.

I think Rasho's salary is reasonable, I like the guy. But it's still a substantial amount of money for a team that's about to swallow $70 million in salary for a player that's worth about half that. I'm saying I doubt they want that much liability. And let's be honest, Rasho doesn't fit with Atlanta.

[picnroll]

They should have tried to work out a S&T with Cavs for Varejao and picks.

[T Park]

Well said.

I agree, losing Johnson lost their versatility also in guarding Tony parker.

Dont forget it was he that helped defend Parker so well in 3 4 and 5 of the Western Finals.

[2centsworth]

Those two lottery picks might be huge down the road.

[T Park]

They should have tried to work out a S&T with Cavs for Varejao and picks.

Only problem is, Joe Johnson didn't want to go to Cleveland.



And let's be honest, Rasho doesn't fit with Atlanta.


Nahh, 8 to 10 point a game, good defensive centers have no place no where, of course not.

[Kori Ellis]

Are both of the picks protected?

[tsb2000]

Those two lottery picks might be huge down the road.

Those picks are lottery protected. That's the crap part for Phoenix.

[T Park]

they wont be getting those picks for a while....

[timvp]

Those two lottery picks might be huge down the road.

It won't matter because they're a lottery team without Nash. Nash has one maybe two more years left.

[T Park]

Lottery team without Nash and WITH Joe Johnson.

Over under on Phoenix's win loss record??

Ill say.......


48 34.

Win the division because no one else is good enough to pass em up for it.

Once again, the Spur's road to the finals with this move, got a whole HELL of alot easier.

[clubalien]

most lottery protected picks "expire" remember when we got suns it would be prtected and then over time expire its protection. turned out that suns got to playoffs and we traded the pick so didnt matter.

the pick from alanta could turn out big depending on draft/and what suns pick. espically since they will have tons of money doteted to their salary and it will be a cheap way to add talent
the other pick not sure of they might end up trading too

[T Park]

Once again, when they lose Nash, they will go back to a lottery team their ownselves.

[sickdsm]

Why would the exception be in the $5 million range if the difference in salaries is over $10 million?

Nevermind -- JJ is base year, that's why.


If you answered your own question in the same post, why ask it?

[exstatic]

I think PHO already fell out of the top half of the WC draw, even if they get Finley. It's not only the transition threes that they lost, it's the lane space in the half court for Amare by the threat of threes, and the defenders honoring that threat. Amare's scoring is going to go down at least 3 ppg. Book it. He's going to find out how Tim has felt since he's been in the league. He's going to feel the collapsing defenses.

[Mr. Body]

If they don't get Hunter (or someone like him), then they'd just roll with Collins as their only big?

Wouldn't you rather do it that way than overpay for someone who doesn't work within your system who doesn't really do a whole lot more? People around here tend to think in Spurs-colored glasses.

[BillsCarnage]

Lottery team without Nash and WITH Joe Johnson.

Over under on Phoenix's win loss record??

Ill say.......


48 34.

Win the division because no one else is good enough to pass em up for it.

Once again, the Spur's road to the finals with this move, got a whole HELL of alot easier.

Let's just wait until the season is closer. The elements of this trade is speculation right now. There are still a few days left to work things out.

:hat

[Kori Ellis]

Wouldn't you rather do it that way than overpay for someone who doesn't work within your system who doesn't really do a whole lot more? People around here tend to think in Spurs-colored glasses.

I'm not saying that they'll go for Rasho. I'm just saying that they can't roll with just one big on their entire roster, which is what I think you are saying they will do. They'll at least pick up some young raw bigs (or old vets).

[timvp]

The only way to salvage it long term for the Suns is if they use their trade exemption for someone like Earl Watson. Getting a backup point for Nash would be huge.

[Kori Ellis]

The only way to salvage it long term for the Suns is if they use their trade exemption for someone like Earl Watson. Getting a backup point for Nash would be huge.

True. They can do something with that trade exception that will improve their depth.

[TheWriter]

5 mill trade exception, right?

I don't think Earl is being traded, I think he's getting signed straight up.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think Earl is being traded, I think he's getting signed straight up.

They've been talking about trading him all week.

[TheWriter]

They've been talking about trading him all week.

Memphis? Isn't Earl a FA? Is he R or UR?

[Kori Ellis]

Memphis? Isn't Earl a FA? Is he R or UR?

He's unrestricted. Memphis has been rumored to be in talks with quite a few teams for a sign-and-trade.

[TheWriter]

Do you know which teams?

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know what teams. Someone last week said Cleveland.

Here's about the sign-and-trade from his agent ...


Realizing they are going to lose unrestricted free agent Earl Watson anyway, the Grizzlies are hoping to get a sign-and-trade deal for the former UCLA guard, whose value has risen in his three seasons in Memphis.

"Basically, the ball is in Memphis' court," said Mitchell Butler, Watson's representative. "There's a ton of interest in Earl. It's a complex process but one that we want to progress on quickly." ...

[TheWriter]

Three way trade with SA.

We trade Beno to third team, third team deals whatever to Memphis, we get Watson.

[TheWriter]

Wait... nevermind. Just went and looked at his stats, dude makes Tony look like Nash at the freethrow line.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Both the draft picks and Diaw are tradeable, he's a decent player. The Suns apparently want him. And Diaw's salary has nothing to do with making the deal work, the Hawks are way under the cap

Diaw sucks. He plays decent defense, but if you stay within 5 ft. of the guy on offense he wimpers, finds someplace to stick his head in the ground, and passes the ball as soon as he catches it.

When you talk aggressiveness and Boris Diaw, this guy makes Rasho look like Kevin Garnett. Is that someone you think they're counting on as a player?

Phoenix took the guy because his contract is up at the end of this season if Phoenix wants it to be, giving them a little bit more money for extending Amare.

Yeah the Hawks are under the cap by a good margin, but they've still got to fill out a team. Diaw was a practice squad player and nothing more for them. If you suck on the Hawks you know you suck.

[Kori Ellis]

Wait... nevermind. Just went and looked at his stats, dude makes Tony look like Nash at the freethrow line.

:wtf Watson shot better than Tony from the line this season.

But if you are looking for a good free throw shooter, he isn't it. If you are looking for a guy who is strong, can defend, dish and hit some shots, then he might be.

[T Park]

Watson aint a whole hell of alot better than Beno.

Only thing Id say he holds over him, is speed, other than that, thats it.

[TheWriter]

:wtf Watson shot better than Tony from the line this season.

But if you are looking for a good free throw shooter, he isn't it. If you are looking for a guy who can defend, dish and hit some shots, then he might be.

FT % career wise: Tony > Watson

Watson making Tony look good was a :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Only thing Id say he holds over him, is speed, other than that, thats it.

Strength.
Defense.

[exstatic]

Um, isn't one of the reasons that Watson wants to leave is that he wants a starting gig? He's certainly not getting that in SA.

[T Park]

Strength.
Defense

strength maybe.

Defense, ehhhhh.


a hair, not noticeably much.


Once again, id rather see em keep Beno.

If they trade him, do it for a Nelson, or a Speedy.

[TheWriter]

Strength.
Defense.

Hops as well.

[timvp]

Watson is one of the clutchest players in the league. He's deadly finishing games.

He's probably a top five defender at his position as well.

[Kori Ellis]

Defense, ehhhhh.


a hair, not noticeably much.

:lol He's touted by most GM's as one of the best young defending PG's in the league.

[timvp]

Defense, ehhhhh.


a hair, not noticeably much.

Huh?

Watson is a stud defender. Off the top of my head, I'd only rank Lindsey Hunter.

[Kori Ellis]

Watson is one of the clutchest players in the league. He's deadly finishing games.

Solid D was saying the same thing the other day. I don't think the Spurs can get him because he'll get around the MLE plus a lot of playing time elsewhere .. but he would be a good pickup.

[ducks]

nets got a backup for kidd now that might save kidd for 2 more years

[TheWriter]

strength maybe.
Defense, ehhhhh.


a hair, not noticeably much.
http://www.grizzliesinfo.com/grizzlies/galleries/gallery-050213-pacers/images/watson-050213-2875.jpg
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/ncb/2000/1109/photo/s_watson_vt.jpg
http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2004/02/11/20040210190800.jpeg
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nba/_photos/2004-04-25-inside-parker.jpg

[T Park]

He's touted by most GM's

These the same GM's that though Fran Vazquez was a "cinch" to play in America this year???


MOST Gm's in the league are stooges

Thomas
Minnesota GM


So once again, Ill take what they say with a grain of salt.

Clutch he is, I remember him beating the Spurs the day after the Mohammed trade with a jumper to give em a 4 point lead I believe.

[Kori Ellis]

So once again, Ill take what they say with a grain of salt.

:lmao

Okay TPark. You could just admit that you didn't know that he was a good defender and call it a day. EVERYBODY in the league -- players, coaches, GM's will say that he's a good defender. Ask Tony Parker. Ask Pop. Ask R.C.

That's what he is. A strong defender that dishes really well and hits timely shots.

[JMarkJohns]

It sucks, no doubt and no way around it.

But, the Suns will have three 40% 3-point shooters (Nash, Jackson, Bell), plus Barbosa and Marion (37%) and could add Finley (over 40% last year)

That's not the concern, or at least not as big a concern.

It's true the volume of 3-pointers will prolly go down, but I don't think it'll be any less effective a weapon.

The worst part is without Finley, the Suns no-longer have a third player who can create offense or take over games. JJ made half the shots he took while getting to the rim almost at will.

His defense won't be missed as much as his offense since the Suns will be improving their backcourt defense with Bell and Diaw.

The trade, so far, is horrible for Phoenix. The players that come out of the 5 million exception will decide if it evens out. The picks will be nice, but from the rumored conditions, I'm not holding out hope of top-lottory talent.

[TheWriter]

These the same GM's that though Fran Vazquez was a "cinch" to play in America this year???

:lol :lol

So because one team drafts a guy who then decides to sign overseas, GM's are stupid?

RC is stupid? Donny Walsh? Petrie? Jerry West?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

strength maybe.

Defense, ehhhhh.

Strength a maybe? I'd be willing to bet that Watson comes close to benching twice as much as Tony Parker.

Defense? You are a true Spurs homer, I'll give you that. Watson is one of the toughest defensive PGs in the league, and definitely a hell of a lot better than Beno in that area.

And oh yeah, he can handle a press too.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

These the same GM's that though Fran Vazquez was a "cinch" to play in America this year???

I only saw one GM think that. The several that picked before him sure didn't.

[TexasAggie2005]

Diaw sucks. He plays decent defense, but if you stay within 5 ft. of the guy on offense he wimpers, finds someplace to stick his head in the ground, and passes the ball as soon as he catches it.

When you talk aggressiveness and Boris Diaw, this guy makes Rasho look like Kevin Garnett. Is that someone you think they're counting on as a player?

Phoenix took the guy because his contract is up at the end of this season if Phoenix wants it to be, giving them a little bit more money for extending Amare.

Yeah the Hawks are under the cap by a good margin, but they've still got to fill out a team. Diaw was a practice squad player and nothing more for them. If you suck on the Hawks you know you suck.

If Phoenix is just trying to clear cap room, why wouldn't they just nix Diaw from the trade and take back less salary to begin with? I also really doubt this is a cap clearing move because Diaw's not making enough. Although if it is, the very fact that he's in his last guaranteed year makes him more tradeable.

Also, how does getting rid of Diaw help the Hawks to fill out their roster? I'm not trying to provoke you, just to understand what you're talking about. You're not making much sense.

BTW, a player that averages 18 minutes a game isn't exactly part of the "practice squad". Keep in mind that he's playing forward on a team loaded with small forwards.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I love the Hawks.

[T Park]

So because one team drafts a guy who then decides to sign overseas, GM's are stupid?

RC is stupid? Donny Walsh? Petrie? Jerry West?


Eh???

Did any of those GMs say he was staying??


Jerry West gave Brian Cardinal a huge contract, does that make him stupid?? Temporarily yeah.



Okay TPark. You could just admit that you didn't know that he was a good defender and call it a day

UH, ok.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I used to like Bob Watson. He was a good hitter. Not much of a defender if I remember correctly. Maybe T was thinking of him.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

how does getting rid of Diaw help the Hawks to fill out their roster?

You don't think Joe Johnson qualifies as "filling out the roster"?

He's going to be playing 40 minutes a night (at least) for Atlanta, sure beats the hell out of what Diaw put in.

Plus, it allows the Hawks to go after big men now they've got a stable of swing men.

Or are you in the Mr. Body camp that the Atlanta Hawks will roll with the Collins kid 48 minutes a night as their only big?

[kolko]

Who is Collins? Did you mean Collier?

[T Park]

Collins kid 48 minutes a night as their only big?

Collins Crawford and (Insert NBADL player here) Is better than Nesterovic???


Interesting.... (sarcasm)

Once again, for the millionth time, people underrate the value of Rasho Nesterovic.

[TexasAggie2005]

You don't think Joe Johnson qualifies as "filling out the roster"?

He's going to be playing 40 minutes a night (at least) for Atlanta, sure beats the hell out of what Diaw put in.

Plus, it allows the Hawks to go after big men now they've got a stable of swing men.

Or are you in the Mr. Body camp that the Atlanta Hawks will roll with the Collins kid 48 minutes a night as their only big?

What the hell are you talking about? They're picking up Johnson, but how does getting rid of Diaw help them fill out their roster? You said it, not me. They're getting Johnson whether Diaw's part of the trade or not.

They've always had a stable of swingmen, this didn't change anything. And yes, they have to pick up a big man, I'd imagine they're going to sign Hunter (for more than he's worth, knowing the Hawks). Hunter will fit in better with a young run and gun team though. They're screwed if they go with Collins.

EDIT: Collier. Props to Kolko, I didn't even catch that.

[TexasAggie2005]

Collins Crawford and (Insert NBADL player here) Is better than Nesterovic???


Interesting.... (sarcasm)

Once again, for the millionth time, people underrate the value of Rasho Nesterovic.

No one said that. I love Rasho's game, even more than Nazr's. I just don't think he fits with the style of game Atlanta will play though. Put it this way, would he fit in with the Suns?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Collins, Collier, what difference does it make? Both suck.

As for the whole Johnson thing, with him taking up more minutes and becoming the focal point of the offense, one of their good but not great swingmen becomes a very tradeable commodity that can get them some front line players in return.

If Diaw is so great, why didn't they trade him for a big man all by himself? Answer: because the guy sucks.

Again, for the billionth time (as stated by myself and several others in this thread and others), Diaw is pound for pound the softest offensive player in this league.

Anyone on this board could walk out on the court and shut the guy down offensively, he's that soft. Crowd the guy and he can't wait to get rid of the ball.

I just find it humorous this notion of yours (and only yours, did you notice that?) that the Phoenix brass is sitting in a room somewhere high-fiving over getting Diaw, and how completely misguided that idea is.

[TexasAggie2005]

Collins, Collier, what difference does it make? Both suck.

As for the whole Johnson thing, with him taking up more minutes and becoming the focal point of the offense, one of their good but not great swingmen becomes a very tradeable commodity that can get them some front line players in return.

If Diaw is so great, why didn't they trade him for a big man all by himself? Answer: because the guy sucks.

Again, for the billionth time (as stated by myself and several others in this thread and others), Diaw is pound for pound the softest offensive player in this league.

Anyone on this board could walk out on the court and shut the guy down offensively, he's that soft. Crowd the guy and he can't wait to get rid of the ball.

I just find it humorous this notion of yours (and only yours, did you notice that?) that the Phoenix brass is sitting in a room somewhere high-fiving over getting Diaw, and how completely misguided that idea is.

So, in this thread you've said:

that Diaw was necessary to make the deal fit the CBA (that's a bunch of crap).

that the Suns wanted Diaw to clear cap space (the guy makes somewhere around a million a year).

that Diaw was untradeable, as he is being TRADED.

that getting rid of Diaw helped fill out the Hawks roster (what?).

called a guy who averages 18 minutes a game a practice squad player.

made a number of baseless accusations (where did I say Atlanta didn't need a big man? Where did I say Diaw was so great Phoenix was all excited about getting him? Nowhere have I said that Diaw was a great player. I think he's a decent bench player, something the Suns sorely needed last year).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

that Diaw was necessary to make the deal fit the CBA (that's a bunch of crap).

Well, time will tell but what I mean on the roster is that the deal was done because the guy is someone Phoenix could dump after the season and someone the Hawks wanted to move to make more room for the rest of their off-season moves.


that the Suns wanted Diaw to clear cap space (the guy makes somewhere around a million a year).

The guy makes 1.3 million, and every little bit helps when you've got a tightwad owner who is staring down max contracts for Nash, Matrix, and soon to be Amare.


that Diaw was untradeable, as he is being TRADED.


I never said the guy was untradeable, just that he wasn't someone teams desired. There's a difference between being a tradeable commodity (Joe Johnson) and being trade filler (Boris Diaw).


that getting rid of Diaw helped fill out the Hawks roster (what?).

If you can't understand replacing someone who played 18 minutes a night and did nothing for a team with a guy who suddenly is the team's leader, best player, will play 40+ a night and be it's leading scorer, I have nothing further to say.

Or do you really think Diaw gave Atlanta anything near what Joe Johnson will, at either end?

Plus it makes one of their wings expendable in a trade for a big man, something they weren't going to get back for your great white hope Boris, and hence, helps fill out the roster.


Where did I say Diaw was so great Phoenix was all excited about getting him?

Baseless accusation? You've done nothing but sound like a member of Diaw's public relations team in this thread.

The guy is a career 5 points, 2 assists per game guard. His offensive game is softer than Charmin'. He makes Rasho look like a bad ass.

Diaw was trade filler, kinda like getting free floor mats when you buy that new Beamer.

The crown jewel for Phoenix in this trade was the two draft picks, I just wish you'd acknowledge this instead of carrying on with your cyber hardon for some Euro scrub.

[TexasAggie2005]

You're an idiot. Whoever let you in A&M should be fired. All I ever tried to say was that Diaw was worth something. I never said he was as valuable as Joe Johnson. I never said he was worth more than the two first rounders. I tried to say he was worth more than "a bag of chips" (to quote T Park, shudder). You're a homer, I don't know why I keep responding to this crap.

[ChumpDumper]

If you answered your own question in the same post, why ask it?In case anyone read my post before I edited it and wondered the same thing, doofus.

[MI21]

Earl Watson throws the best alley-oop passes in the league too.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I tried to say he was worth more than "a bag of chips" (to quote T Park, shudder). You're a homer, I don't know why I keep responding to this crap.

Actually Tpark was pretty much spot on. Not sure why you've continued the pissing match for two pages now on this.

It doesn't have anything to do with being a homer. I like the games of lots of guys not on the Spurs, that doesn't make Boris Diaw suck any less.

Call me when the guy starts averaging 10 and 5.

[TexasAggie2005]

Actually Tpark was pretty much spot on. Not sure why you've continued the pissing match for two pages now on this.

It doesn't have anything to do with being a homer. I like the games of lots of guys not on the Spurs, that doesn't make Boris Diaw suck any less.

Call me when the guy starts averaging 10 and 5.

Actually, TPark used that phrase to describe Rasho, which just goes to show you still have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

Anyway, I just want to say congratulations, you win. Not the argument, because you're still a dumbass who keeps taking what I say out of context, making incorrect statements, and generally misrepresenting what I'm trying to say. But you win, I give up. This argument's not worth my time. I just want to say how cool it is though that a fellow Ag like you can start attacking me for no reason. Way to go Old Army. Adios.

[exstatic]

Diaw was included because:

1) he relieves 1M off of ATL's cap figure this year.
2) he relieves 1M off of PHO's cap figure next summer.

I expect him to play the Bo Outlaw towel waving role very well for PHO this year.

[sickdsm]

In case anyone read my post before I edited it and wondered the same thing, doofus.

You do realize your getting like Sequ, right? A simple non-confrontational question and you get all pissy.

Kick the dog on your way to work lately?

[ChumpDumper]

You do realize your getting like Sequ, right?I've always been like me.
A simple non-confrontational question and you get all pissy.Why ask it in the first place?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Actually, TPark used that phrase to describe Rasho, which just goes to show you still have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

Huh?


I tried to say he was worth more than "a bag of chips" (to quote T Park, shudder).

You quoted Tpark, I quoted you.

Spare me the whoa is Old Army bullshit. Carry on an intelligent conversation instead of the petty, juvenile "Thanks and Gig 'em" crap you are right now.

I wasn't trying to attack you, just to take task with your assertion that Diaw is anything other than a starting caliber towel waver.

[Kori Ellis]

Sorry, I think I said Collins earlier in this thread and started the whole Collins/Collier error. I thought about it when I posted it, but I wasn't going to waste an edit on a Hawk :lol

TPark, who are you talking about when you say Crawford? Chris Crawford?

[TexasAggie2005]

Huh?



You quoted Tpark, I quoted you.

Spare me the whoa is Old Army bullshit. Carry on an intelligent conversation instead of the petty, juvenile "Thanks and Gig 'em" crap you are right now.

I wasn't trying to attack you, just to take task with your assertion that Diaw is anything other than a starting caliber towel waver.

I borrowed a phrase in another thread T Park used to describe Rasho.

You've been attacking me since I first posted in this thread. Read back through it, read your first reply to me. And you saying that Diaw is nothing more than a towel waver is pure homerism, because now you feel like you have to prove me wrong. Any guy that gets 18 minutes at small forward on a team with Josh Smith, Al Harrington, Josh Childress, etc. has to show some potential.

Quit making this into a fight, read what's being posted, and learn how to respond maturely.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's immature about saying Diaw is a starting caliber towel waver?

You act like his 18 minutes a game was meaningful or somehow earned. The Hawks had a lot of garbage time to fill, and they called on Diaw to do it.

All you have to hang your hat on about Diaw is his 18 minutes per game. Here's the bigger question... If he's "good enough" to get 18 minutes on a "loaded" Hawks team, why is it he only had 5 points, 2 assists to show for it?

I can't figure out how you come to the conclusion I'm a "homer" about Diaw. Do you know what a homer is?

Actually on second thought, I'm a homer. You got me. I'm a homer for 98% of the guards in the NBA who are better than him. Guilty as charged.

You are holding up a guy who got 4.8 PPG, 2 APG in 18 minutes and falling on your sword for him. Do you realize how stupid that is?

Here's some *true* homerism for you from me (a Spurs fan)... Glenn Robinson scored more than twice as many points per game for the Spurs as Baby Jordan (Diaw) in a minute less per game.

Beno Udrih, despite playing two less minutes per game, scored two more points per game than your boy Diaw.

The Chosen One's (aka Diaw) scoring average would have been good for thirteenth on the Spurs last year, despite playing more or equal minutes to five of them.

You got me, I'm a homer. And Boris Diaw still sucks more dick than Jenna Jameson on set.

[TexasAggie2005]

What's immature about saying Diaw is a starting caliber towel waver?

You act like his 18 minutes a game was meaningful or somehow earned. The Hawks had a lot of garbage time to fill, and they called on Diaw to do it.

All you have to hang your hat on about Diaw is his 18 minutes per game. Here's the bigger question... If he's "good enough" to get 18 minutes on a "loaded" Hawks team, why is it he only had 5 points, 2 assists to show for it?

I can't figure out how you come to the conclusion I'm a "homer" about Diaw. Do you know what a homer is?

Actually on second thought, I'm a homer. You got me. I'm a homer for 98% of the guards in the NBA who are better than him. Guilty as charged.

You are holding up a guy who got 4.8 PPG, 2 APG in 18 minutes and falling on your sword for him. Do you realize how stupid that is?

Here's some *true* homerism for you from me (a Spurs fan)... Glenn Robinson scored more than twice as many points per game for the Spurs as Baby Jordan (Diaw) in a minute less per game.

Beno Udrih, despite playing two less minutes per game, scored two more points per game than your boy Diaw.

The Chosen One's (aka Diaw) scoring average would have been good for thirteenth on the Spurs last year, despite playing more or equal minutes to five of them.

You got me, I'm a homer. And Boris Diaw still sucks more dick than Jenna Jameson on set.

I'm saying Diaw is a young, foreign player with POTENTIAL who's stuck on a crappy team. He's 22 years old for crying out loud. I think Robinson's a better player right now. Quit misinterpreting and misrepresenting everything I'm saying as anything other than the fact that he's a marginal young player who might turn into something. Was Ginobili a 15-20 ppg player when he was 22? Maybe he doesn't score enough because he plays for the HAWKS. I'm sure their point guard was every bit as good as Tony, so that's a great comparison.

Your need to personally insult me every post is pathetic. I'm honestly ashamed we went to the same school.

To everyone else who wants to read about Joe Johnson going to Atlanta, sorry for hijacking your thread. Sorry, I don't respond well to insults and have trouble backing down from a fight.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm not misinterpreting anything.

Some guys have it, some guys don't. Diaw doesn't.

As for the personal attacks, look in the mirror pal. There was the "you're an idiot" thing, and now you've tried to pull the "Aggie" card twice.

Look, if you can't take a little ribbing when you come in here saying Diaw is anything better than a towel waver, maybe you need to stay off the message boards for a while.

[TexasAggie2005]

I'm not misinterpreting anything.

Some guys have it, some guys don't. Diaw doesn't.

As for the personal attacks, look in the mirror pal. There was the "you're an idiot" thing, and now you've tried to pull the "Aggie" card twice.

Look, if you can't take a little ribbing when you come in here saying Diaw is anything better than a towel waver, maybe you need to stay off the message boards for a while.

You've misrepresented everything I've said. I never called Diaw the "Chosen One", Baby Jordan, etc. I never said the Hawks didn't need a center, etc. You've tried to take my argument that he's a decent player with potential and make it look like I'm a huge fan of his. If you look at the original post, all I was saying is that he's a decent player they might be able to include in a trade for shooting. That's it.

And then you started insulting me. I don't want to sound like a little kid, but if you're gonna start insulting me.....

As for staying off the boards, that's your call. Tell me to stop posting, and I'll never say another word. School's about to start anyhow and this has turned into a colossal waste of time. Apparently Internet message boards are only for the cool people with 10 thousand gazillion posts, so if you want me off your board, fine (no offense intended for the people with 10 thousand gazillion intelligent posts). Awesomely warm reception I received here, anyhow.

[T Park]

TPark, who are you talking about when you say Crawford? Chris Crawford?

Yeah hes blown his knee out like 5 times or something and keeps coming back and hurting it again.

Im sure he wont be back

If they dont go with Rasho itll be
Collier
probobly like NDyie or some more filler NBDL stiffs
Mikki Moore, along that ilk.


BTW, Ive had my beefs with Rasho Nesterovic, but I've been the lone gunman on his bandwagon from day 1.

Ill reiterate, if getting a small forward, means trading him, do it.

But don't just do it to save money.

Having 2 big shot blockers like Nazr and Rasho is an unreal edge for the team.

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah hes blown his knee out like 5 times or something and keeps coming back and hurting it again.

Im sure he wont be back

Crawford has worked out with five or more NBA teams, trying to get someone to pick him up. I heard that the Nets might.

[TheDude]

Can't blame the guy for trying, hes either got heart, or is in a shithole of debt.

[1Parker1]

Pheonix is still a great team. If they didn't have the Spurs as their biggest road blockers...I'd say they would have still had a great chance to win the WCF.

Steve Nash, Marion, and Amare coupled with Bell and Thomas and Diaw is still a pretty good team. Suns had no option here. JJ admitted he wanted to go to the Hawks (God knows why :rolleyes), why would they spend $70 mil on a guy that doesn't want to be there?

I still think Suns will make a good run for it. Losing JJ isn't what's going to break them.......it's trying to get away from the successful running/passing game they had last year that will. They could still have that with the guys they have now.

[tophy7]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but check this.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0801suns0801.html

"Johnson told several people that being a third option on the Suns was "unacceptable." He reportedly resented teammates' star treatment and disliked Amaré Stoudemire after a March halftime incident in Miami.

After Dwyane Wade's 19-point half, Stoudemire barked at Johnson in front of the team: "Are you going to play any (expletive) defense?"

Stoudemire got seven shots in the next game and then sat out two with ankle inflammation. Johnson played his best ball after that but told friends he would never re-sign."

[Spurminator]

Juicy!

[BillsCarnage]

Juicy!

Oh yeah, the Phx forums have been a blaze with the whole JoJo fiasco.





:king

[Horry For 3!]

Joe Johnson: Traded for Boris Diaw

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Monday, August 1, 2005
Update: Johnson has been traded to Atlanta for Boris Diaw and two future first-round draft picks, ESPNews reports.

Recommendation: Johnson had said he wanted to join the Hawks after agreeing to a contract, so the two sides worked out a sign-and-trade deal. Full details will follow when NBA teams are allowed to make transactions official on Tuesday.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Methinks Joe Johnson will set an NBA record for threes in a game when Phoenix and Atlanta tangle next year.

:smokin

[spurschick]

Fans only loser in JJ saga
FanBoy
azcentral.com
Aug. 1, 2005 04:20 PM

Flashback about two months ago when the city was in the grips of Suns fever. The Suns were three games from reaching the NBA Finals, had beaten some tough teams in thrilling fashion in their playoff run and were playing the most entertaining basketball anyone had seen in at least 12 years.

So how did we go from that to where we all find ourselves now: Scratching our heads on how easily this team has been dismantled and trying to figure out who the heck Boris Diaw is.

Over the next couple of days we are going to hear conflicting comments from both the Suns' brass and Joe Johnson. Robert Sarver and company will say how they did everything they could to keep JJ but ultimately it was his choice to leave, while JJ's camp will say that he really wanted to stay with the Suns but he didn't get the respect he deserved from management.

You can believe whomever you want, but ultimately both Sarver and JJ come out winners, while the real losers in this saga are the fans who live and die by what happens with their team.

At the end of the day Sarver can go back to counting his millions or buying yachts or whatever millionaires do with their free time, and JJ can head to the "Dirty South" and pretend he is the man. He can buy himself his new Hummer or Escalade and go about playing on the Clippers East and become an anonymous player on a losing team. I hope JJ finds some joy in his new and improved bank account because he isn't going to get it from what is going to happen on the court. The money better be worth it because the closest he is going to get to the playoffs is as a guest analyst on TNT.

If the reports are true about how JJ was upset about a comment Amare Stoudamire made about him not playing defense, then he is more fragile than everyone thought. Just wait until the Hawks fans start heckling him after the losses start piling up. Or worse yet, don't heckle him since attendance at Phillips Arena is the second worst in the NBA. With money comes responsibility, and if he wants to be the man in Atlanta, he can't fly under the radar like he did here. He will be the first player the press will go to when things start to go wrong and he better be able to deal with that.

It blows my mind how quickly JJ can forget the love and admiration this city and its fans showed him when he fractured his orbital bone. The ovation he received upon his first visit to AWA after surgery was the loudest I heard the arena all season. How can he trade that in for the fickle and indifferent crowds that will surely greet him in Atlanta?

Only JJ can answer that question and he will quickly realize that all the money in the world won't fulfill his goal of getting the respect he deserves. You earn respect by winning titles; ask Robert Horry about that.

The only explanation I can come up with is that JJ wasn't all that keen on winning a title. Sure, it'd be nice to put on his resume, but it isn't as nice as a spot on Cribs showing off his 10 new flat screen TVs.

Sarver is just as guilty and comes out just as tainted in this mess. Bob Young brought up a good point on Monday when he said that Sarver never really wanted to keep JJ and was simply looking for an out.

If Sarver was serious about keeping JJ, he would simply sign him and let Mike D'Antoni figure out a way to make it work. Sarver has all the control in the situation and he decided it was better to let JJ go and save his pennies.

For as much as people have made fun of Mark Cuban as an owner, he would never have dismantled his team like this. Cuban decided not to re-sign Nash last season after repeated failed attempts of winning a title. It was probably time to try something new and he took the bitter pill and let Nash walk.

In this case Sarver is taking apart this team after only one season, one in which the Suns exceeded all expectations. All this maneuvering is simply to save money, not to make them more competitive.

Now the Suns have lost two starters from what was easily the second or third best team in the NBA last season and have changed course midstream. They may insist that the philosophy will not change, but how can they replace 400-plus three pointers? The answer is, they can't. And as much as the Suns made a point of saying their style was predicated on fast breaks and pushing the ball up court, the three-point shot was just as important; now suddenly that arrow is gone from the Suns' quiver.

So I hope JJ and Sarver are happy. They both got what they wanted all along. The only recourse the fans have is to boo JJ every time he touches the ball when he makes his yearly trip out here. Sarver, on the hand, better get ready to see a lot of fingers at AWA next season - and I'm not talking about the purple foam ones.

[boutons]

"The only recourse the fans have is to boo JJ"

huh? only? This is $$AMERICA. All-American JJ went for the money.

Dallas had a great year in 02/03
NJ had 2 great years.
PHX had last season.
Lakers and Wolves had a great year then missed the playoffs.

But the Spurs get their 55+ wins every year, get to the playoffs, win 3 Titles.

Spurs fans need to realize how lucky we are with repeated, annual success that is rest on the foundation of Greg Popovich and the organization he has built AND MAINTAINED its stability for 8 or 9 years now.

[sickdsm]

I've always been like me.Why ask it in the first place?


Why ask the question that only you were wondering in the first place then also?

[190 Octane]

So I hope JJ and Sarver are happy. They both got what they wanted all along. The only recourse the fans have is to boo JJ every time he touches the ball when he makes his yearly trip out here. Sarver, on the hand, better get ready to see a lot of fingers at AWA next season - and I'm not talking about the purple foam ones.
:lol Awesome!

I don't know how much this Joe Johnson situation has to do with money so much as it has to do with egoes. Johnson's probably bruised last summer when Sarver came in and dumped $43.5 million in Quentin Richardson's lap - what anyone saw in him, I don't know- and another $65 million in Steve Nash's, while never even giving Johnson so much as a mention of extension.

Johnson's ego also took a beating when he was averaging a healthy 17 ppg and 5 rpg while shooting 48% from behind the arch, yet it took a broken cheek in the Playoffs for him to get any publicity. Phoenix media spent more time on 1. Nash 2. Stoudemire 3. Richardson 4. Sarver 5. Marion 6. D'Antoni, in that order, ahead of Johnson, for most of the regular season.

Robert Sarver, meanwhile, seems more concerned with getting face time down at courtside, waving his foam finger and dunking off of trampolines at timeouts, then he does anything else.

Johnson and Sarver are a couple of children, particularly JJ who would rather take his ball and go home than win. It makes me glad I'm a Spurs fan. It's as if San Antonio is the eye of a hurricane - with the rest of the league being the hurricane.

[Extra Stout]

This is a weird feeling.

There are no legitimate rivals to the Spurs in the Western Conference.

The Suns have peaked. Dallas can't beat the Spurs. The Rockets are at least a year away. The Nuggets aren't there. Everybody else is mediocre. The other serious contenders are all in the East.

The entire 2005-06 season and the Western Conference playoffs seem like a mere formality preceding a return to the Finals unless Tim gets hurt, in which case one of the pretenders will get through only to get whacked around by the Eastern champion.

The era of the dominant Western Conference is over.

[190 Octane]

The era of the dominant Western Conference is over.

Seriously. Houston looks like a decent team especially after brining in Swift, but needs some bench support badly. Memphis has made some good moves, like shipping out Bonzi and bringing in Kirk Snyder/Damon Stoudamire/Bobby Jackson, but they have no post presence aside from Pau Gasol. Dallas can't play enough defense or score enough points to even think of contending with the Spurs.

Honestly, there's nothing standing in the Spurs way of a 65-win season, save for injuries.

[TheTruth]

Seriously. Houston looks like a decent team especially after brining in Swift, but needs some bench support badly. Memphis has made some good moves, like shipping out Bonzi and bringing in Kirk Snyder/Damon Stoudamire/Bobby Jackson, but they have no post presence aside from Pau Gasol. Dallas can't play enough defense or score enough points to even think of contending with the Spurs.

Honestly, there's nothing standing in the Spurs way of a 65-win season, save for injuries.
Knock on wood.

The only thing that Swift does for the Rockets is bring their median age down below 35. Phoenix could lose JJ, Dallas is still soft, Memphis still sucks, and SacTown's best post player is Brad Miller. The West sucks now.

[ChumpDumper]

Why ask the question that only you were wondering in the first place then also?I had already typed and posted the question.

[sickdsm]

How do you edit a post without having the info at the bottom saying you edited it?

Just wondering

[BillsCarnage]

Dallas can't play enough defense or score enough points to even think of contending with the Spurs.

But according to you from another thread that should make them good enough for the #4 spot in the west, correct? Even though they'll be #3 in the division?


Honestly, there's nothing standing in the Spurs way of a 65-win season, save for injuries.

Always one clown willing to jinx their team, but manage to save full mockery if an "injury" occurs.

Homerism at it's best.


:drunk

[T Park]

Homerism at it's best.


You mean like when you think that Raja Bell can guard Manu Ginobili?!?

[Kori Ellis]

You mean like when you think that Raja Bell can guard Manu Ginobili?!?

Well Manu said that. So, I don't think you guys should keep killing the messenger on that point. Manu, Pop, and the rest of the Spurs think very highly of Raja as a defender (despite the fact that Manu has torched him the past).

[BillsCarnage]

You mean like when you think that Raja Bell can guard Manu Ginobili?!?

I didn't say Bell could guard Manu. Manu said Bell could guard him. He doesn't like playing against Bell which is why he called to whine. Nothing more.

[BillsCarnage]

Well Manu said that. So, I don't think you guys should keep killing the messenger on that point. Manu, Pop, and the rest of the Spurs think very highly of Raja as a defender (despite the fact that Manu has torched him the past).

But Kori, what else are they to do when they're not fighting with each other??

[Kori Ellis]

which is why he called to whine.

:wtf I was defending you and you say something stupid.

I don't think Manu called specifically to say that. It was just something he said while he was on the phone with his agent.

[TheWriter]

:wtf I was defending you and you say something stupid.

He's good for that.

[BillsCarnage]

If they want to attempt to torch the messenger, then the messenger has the right to throw some gas on the fire.

I'd really like to find the express article to rehash what was said, but according to those who have discussed it(paper, TV and radio), when Manu found out Bell was going to the Suns he called Rudoy to find out why he'd let the one guy he hates playing against go to a competitor. Whether it was whinning, complaining or respect is how the story is interpreted. But from most/all accounts Manu was not pleased.

[190 Octane]

BC, you are a sad little man. The Western Conference is weak. Being the fourth best team in a weak conference doesn't mean you can contend with the defending champions, you silly troll.

You wanna talk about homerism? You claim Phoenix is going to better without one of the league's rising young stars, who averaged 17 ppg and shot 48% from downtown despite being the No. 5 option offensively. That's not homerism, that's flatout delusion.

[BillsCarnage]

BC, you are a sad little man. The Western Conference is weak. Being the fourth best team in a weak conference doesn't mean you can contend with the defending champions, you silly troll.

picking you apart is not worth the time, especially with someone who only has 34 posts, most of which probably came yesterday. You have not room to call anyone a troll. Been here for a while and i ain't leavin. Git used to it. Come back when you can offer insightful pov's.



You wanna talk about homerism? You claim Phoenix is going to better without one of the league's rising young stars, who averaged 17 ppg and shot 48% from downtown despite being the No. 5 option offensively. That's not homerism, that's flatout delusion.

Despite your delusion, JoJo was the #2 option. Nash was not a primary point scorer and Marion cleaned up. Marion isn't the best at creating his own shot, but he sure can clean up. Q just sat on the wing waiting for the ball. JoJo was #2. He's delusional to think he was the #4 option. JoJo's success was a result of the system.

[190 Octane]

Picking me apart? So far you have yet to say anything of revelance, just posted some smiley face icons. But good for you.

Keep telling yourself Johnson's success was a direct result of the Suns system. His numbers have improved every season, including those years when he wasn't in the D'Antoni system. But you know everything, you don't stats getting in the way. I'm sure Raja Bell and his career 7 points, 2 rebounds, and 1 assist per game will be just the ticket to that NBA championship.

Pick that apart.

[Extra Stout]

In the middle of the Western Conference Finals, according to Suns fans, Joe Johnson was the X-factor, the critical element to the Suns' success, and his return to the lineup was just the spark the Suns needed to turn the series around in the favor.

Now, according to Suns fans, Joe Johnson is overrated, his production was just a function of the Suns' system, and what he provided can be replaced with what Raja Bell will do.

Now Raja is the X-factor, the critical element to the Suns' success against the Spurs. Just as Ruben Patterson was the "Kobe Stoppa," Raja Bell is the "Manu Stoppa."

I'd laugh, but Spurs fans did this exact kind of rationalization with Derek Anderson and Steve Smith in the summer of 2001.

[190 Octane]

I'd laugh, but Spurs fans did this exact kind of rationalization with Derek Anderson and Steve Smith in the summer of 2001.

:lol, nice!

You're right on the money, Extra Stout. All I read in the Arizona Republic, and all I heard from my many Suns-fan friends was the Conference Finals would have been different if Johnson had been present. Less than two months later, he's an overrated hack. Which is it?

The fact of the matter is the Suns still have no center. They've lost 17 points and 5 rebounds a game in Johnson. Aside from his numbers, Johnson was an anomily. 6'8" guards with the ability to shoot the three, run the point, and post up defenders aren't a dime-a-dozen.

BC, or anyone else, if you really believe Raja Bell will, or is even capable of, producing anywhere near the same level as Joe Johnson, I have this bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

[AI-square]

I actually think having Joe Johnson will make Atlanta a lot tougher if they can get a center. I don't think Raja Bell is anywhere as good as JoJom, so I think that it's not a good deal for Phoenix in the short term. Imagine the 2005 playoffs and Nash gets an injury or gets into foul trouble. Phoenix fans wouldn't want Leandro Barbosa running the point, would they?