DUNCAN: THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION by Jack McCallum

[scanry]

http://www.jackmccallum.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Unknown-1.jpeg

DUNCAN: THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION

July 3rd, 2014

I was walking through my local farmer’s market the other day when David, the Clover Farms butcher who was running a side of beef through a giant saw, hollered to me:

“Hey, Jack. Tim Duncan … top 10 of all-time?”

The question caught me off-guard, especially since I was concerned that he might chop off his hands at the wrist.

“Jeez, I don’t know,” I said. “Maybe not top 10. Maybe he’s 11?”

That got me thinking. Duncan is one of those players about whom no one has a bad thing to say. No one.

Yet he is probably not routinely placed in most top 10s. If he’s a center—which I think he is—he’s got the
whole Russell-Chamberlain-Abdul-Jabbar-Shaq-Mikan obstacle, and if he’s a power forward he’s got The Mailman, Sir Charles (though he always struck me as a small forward) and worthy ancients like Bob Pettit and Elvin Hayes.

My own all-time starting fives usually consist of Jordan, Magic, Russell, Bird and Baylor (first team) and Robertson, West, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar (cheating and turning him into a forward) and now LeBron (second team). Never a thought to putting Timmy on either the first or second team, though, to his credit, Bill Simmons, in his The Book of Basketball, put Duncan all the way up at No. 7, and that was before the Spurs’ latest title, Duncan’s fifth.

But the question of where Duncan belongs in the pantheon gave way to a more interesting one that struck me after I heard a comment from David Robinson, his Spurs teammate alongside of whom Duncan won two of his five championships. Asked whether he would choose a young Jordan or a young Duncan to start a team, Robinson chose Duncan. Now, we can chalk up the Admiral’s choice up to loyalty, of course. But might Duncan be the correct answer?

Understand that I am the last person to be a revisionist on Jordan. Every time someone suggests that LeBron is better or that Scottie Pippen was actually the more important player on the Bulls’ championship teams, or that the Big O was a more complete version of MJ, or that you’d rather have Bill Russell than Jordan, I just say … no. No way. Jordan is the GOAT, and let’s move on.

But wondering about whom to start a team with is a different question … and perhaps the ultimate compliment a player can receive. I know that I should throw Russell and his 11 championships into this equation, but I’m not going to do it. Russell was great, and, in his own way more revolutionary than Jordan, Duncan or anyone else. But Russ didn’t have enough of an offensive game to be in this discussion, and, besides, he played in a different era.

I’m making my choice between Duncan and Jordan, and feel free to complain.

First, let’s acknowledge that you’d be in hoops heaven with either player; every year you have a chance to win a championship (they have a combined 11) simply because they are on your roster.

Since the default answer is Jordan, let’s start with him as the standard. What could you possibly get from Duncan that you don’t get from Jordan?

Offense? No. Jordan was better than Duncan.

Defense? No. Jordan, at his position, was at least as good, probably better as an on-the-ball defender and Duncan’s equal as a helper.

Competiveness? No. Duncan is a gamer, but Jordan was the ultimate gamer.

Clutch play? No. Jordan and Russell remain the greatest in that category.

What then?

Well, first, Duncan is the ultimate leader. Jordan was not a great leader in his early years, and, though his Alpha Male leadership undoubtedly carried the Bulls in the 1990s, I’m not sure how much longer it could’ve gone on had that team stayed together. Michael as Leader wore thin. And don’t forget that Jordan was helped by the Zen-ish hand of Phil Jackson.

As for Duncan, his leadership has worked for 17 seasons and will no doubt work next year, too. Even when Robinson was there, Duncan’s competitiveness and cool temperament steered the San Antonio ship. Because he almost never talked out of school–and quite often didn’t talk at all–it was hard to grasp that Duncan even was the leader. But he was and remains so.

Second, consistency. This is not to say that Jordan was inconsistent, for nothing could be further from the truth. But he was more unpredictable. Was this a season when Michael wanted to handle and direct the offense, be a kind of de facto point guard? Was this a season when Michael wanted to shoot more three-pointers? Was this a season when Michael wanted to post up and get the ball inside?

But Duncan, now 38, was the same player when he came into the league as he is now. That can be a problem if a player doesn’t evolve, but it’s not a problem when you come into the league fully evolved, which was the case with Duncan. Every season, Gregg Popovich knew around whom and, more importantly, how, to build his offense and his defense. Duncan would post up, score when necessary, rebound, make precision outlet passes, set picks, and defend the pick-and-roll better than anyone who ever exhaled CO2.

Duncan’s numbers are positively metronomic. He had 13 straight years of double-figure rebounding and was still at 9, 9.9 and 9.7 in the last three years. His field goal percentage is just silly consistent: Over 17 years he has always made about half of his shots (he’s never been below 48%), which is outstanding for someone who doesn’t dunk all that much and has that crazy-good bank shot from as far out as 15 feet.

That consistency is reflected in the Spurs’ record. Since 1997, when he was drafted out of Wake Forest, the Spurs have never failed to win 50 games, except for the 1999 strike-shortened season when they won the most games in the league, and, oh yes, a championship. That was Duncan’s first ring and his most recent came 15 years later. Only Abdul-Jabbar had more seasons between his first and last, and he did it with two different teams.

Third, more than any other superstar, Duncan brings no drama to the offseason, no drama to preseason camp, no drama to the regular season and no drama to the playoffs. There is a downside to this, I suppose, in terms of fan and media interest. But that makes absolutely no difference to Duncan or his franchise. There was opera around Jordan, opera around Magic, opera around Barkley, opera around Malone, opera around even Bird. But Duncan sings no arias. He punches a clock, plays his ass off and goes home, leaving behind no energy-sapping public relations nightmares to clean up.

Fourth, unselfishness. Duncan is not the only unselfish player who ever drew a paycheck. Magic Johnson was unselfish. John Stockton was unselfish. Hell, for that matter, David Robinson was unselfish when he and Duncan played together. But it’s hard for me to imagine a more unselfish player than Duncan. He accepts his minutes on the bench and all the while encourages his teammates. He takes them aside for private conversations and rarely divulges what he says. He leads by example.

Fifth, that unselfishness has a very real oncourt translation. There are any number of great players who don’t/didn’t need to score to be effective, starting, of course, with Magic. LeBron is that kind of player, too.

But Duncan is in another category altogether. It’s not just that he doesn’t have to be the focus of the offense and is content to set picks, moving with incredible alacrity as the shot clock runs down. It’s more that he doesn’t even need to be in the play. Tony Parker has it going without the need for picks? Tim will go away. Kawhi Leonard feels it? Tim will go away. Tiago Splitter—who can’t carry Duncan’s sneakers as a player but has his moments—needs space inside? Tim will go away. There has never been a superstar so willing to give himself up on offense, yet be so ready when his number is called.

You add all this together and what does it mean? Well, I’ve convinced myself that, of all the players in NBA history, I would start a team with Duncan. I might miss some highlight footage that I would’ve gotten with Jordan. I might field some complaints that my team isn’t exciting enough (even if I do have the Argentinean Wrecking Ball, Manu Ginobili).

But here’s what I would be sure of with Duncan as a foundation: I will win championships over a sustained period of time, the loyalists in my franchise will stay with me, and I will have avoided a couple decades of migraines.

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2014/07/03/duncan-the-ultimate-foundation/#.U-MmcKOiKM0

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horseshit at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

[Arcadian]

Nice.

Duncan = GOAT long-term foundation

[Thread]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

[jag]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

You've no room. Your Magic has a well-publicized history of fornicating with entire rooms full of men.

[Brazil]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horseshit at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

:lol typical unreadable post

I have no fucking clue of what you are talking about

this one cracked me up in particular: if he was so clutch why he loss a bet? wtf

[scanry]

:lol typical unreadable post

I have no fucking clue of what you are talking about

this one cracked me up in particular: if he was so clutch why he loss a bet? wtf

He's probably referring to MJ's gambling and other bets in 93.

[Clipper Nation]

Duncan > Dad KillerPERIOD :worthy:

[Brazil]

He's probably referring to MJ's gambling and other bets in 93.

yeah but do you see a link between being clutch and loosing a gamble ? :lol

[weebo]

When comparing Jordan to other less notable greats, why don't media types ever mention Jordan's relationship with the NBA/Stern? I mean Jordan had the NBA in his back pocket. He could grab, push off (Byron Rusell), travel, kill his own father; and yet, so much as breathe on him and Dick Bavetta was there to whistle you up. Sure there were other high flying niggs at the time (Dominque, Clyde the Glyde, etc.) who could have easily been the "GOAT" of that generation, but no it was Jordan. Now, has Duncan ever received that kind of attention and treatment from the NBA?

[Clipper Nation]

When comparing Jordan to other less notable greats, why don't media types ever mention Jordan's relationship with the NBA/Stern? I mean Jordan had the NBA in his back pocket. He could grab, push off (Byron Rusell), travel, kill his own father; and yet, so much as breathe on him and Dick Bavetta was there to whistle you up. Sure there were other high flying niggs at the time (Dominque, Clyde the Glyde, etc.) who could have easily been the "GOAT" of that generation, but no it was Jordan. Now, has Duncan ever received that kind of attention and treatment from the NBA?
Stern also changed rules so DK could finally get past the Bad Boy Pistons :lol

[ambchang]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

[scanry]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

Too bad he's surpassed Kobe and is standing tall as the Player of the Post Jordan Era. You were pretty smug with Kobe ringing in 2010, weren't you? Even after 6, you were pretty confident that Duncan would have his redemption.

[Thread]

You've no room. Your Magic has a well-publicized history of fornicating with entire rooms full of men.

True, but, it is still sweeter than apple butter that your Duncan fornicates the same way. You Lorded it over us for umpteenth years our rape and our homo. Now you have a rapist and your have a homosexual. ha, ha, jag, ha, ha.

[-21-]

:cry

[baseline bum]

True, but, it is still sweeter than apple butter that your Duncan fornicates the same way. You Lorded it over us for umpteenth years our rape and our homo. Now you have a rapist and your have a homosexual. ha, ha, jag, ha, ha.

If Duncan did, where's his AIDS to prove it son?

[UZER]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

Still shining shoes Dale?

[Killakobe81]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

Great post without all of the emo bullshit for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.

[Splits]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

Amb

[Arcadian]

Great post without all of the emo bullshit for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.

No one is saying Duncan > MJ individually. We're discussing the possibility that Duncan would be a better centerpiece for a long-term dynasty.

[UZER]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce competitor that he had to walk away?

[Thread]

Too bad he's surpassed Kobe and is standing tall as the Player of the Post Jordan Era. You were pretty smug with Kobe ringing in 2010, weren't you? Even after 6, you were pretty confident that Duncan would have his redemption.

The Bag stays in Texas till further notice.

[Thread]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce competitor that he had to walk away?

True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman.:lol Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear shit in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.

Lord-a-mercy.

[Thread]

Amb

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[UZER]

True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman.:lol Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear shit in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.

Lord-a-mercy.

Riiiiight. Juanita got 168 milli, Amy got a karate dojo with Daniel Laruso included.

[Thread]

Riiiiight. Juanita got 168 milli, Amy got a karate dojo with Daniel Laruso included.

- "Uncle!"

- Tim Duncan

[Kool Bob Love]

Thread has been bitter since June 15, 2014.

[DMC]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce competitor that he had to walk away?

This kind of stuff happens with guys who are all about themselves, and who see the "team" as a means to and end.

[DMC]

True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman.:lol Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear shit in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.

Lord-a-mercy.

In November when that black cloth drops and that 5th banner hangs proudly above the head of the greatest player of the post Jordan era, you'll be spinning the revolver. The homo schtick won't help you. I hope it's against the Lakers.

[Thread]

In November when that black cloth drops and that 5th banner hangs proudly above the head of the greatest player of the post Jordan era, you'll be spinning the revolver. The homo schtick won't help you. I hope it's against the Lakers.

Nevertheless the "homo schtick" stays. You grew it. By God you will chew it.

Let us proceed...

[ambchang]

Great post without all of the emo bullshit for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.

Last year you said if Duncan made the finals you would rank him over Kobe. You reneged and denied you ever said it.

This year you said if Duncan won it all you would rank Duncan over Kobe. You are now satin you are strongly leaning towards it.

Just admit you will flat out never rank Duncan over Kobe no matter how large the mountain of evidence is and get it over with.

As for building a team, big men are generally easier to build around because dominant ones are so hard to find, the game has changed to emphasize perimeter play but a legit big who can man the defense, pass and stretch the d is still a better piece to build as those are just so mch tougher to find than perimeter scorer.

In a way, it makes what Jordan did all the more impressive because he stood out so much from a larger pool of good players (wing guys) while the bigs are generally so dominant because they are battling against a smaller pool of talented players. When you look throughout nba history, there really isn't a consensus of who the greatest big is (Kareem, wilt, Russell) whereas Jordan is the clear cut best wing player by a few miles.

[ambchang]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce competitor that he had to walk away?

Jordan wasn't a fierce enough competitor to challenge mob bosses.

[djohn2oo8]

The whole Dad killer schtick, the rape schticks are played out and add nothing to the basketball discussion. It makes you sound like a scorned woman.

[Thread]

^Bend over. I'll show you a fuckin' scorned woman.

[Thread]

Thread has been bitter since June 15, 2014.

Absolutely. Amy, Tim's homosexuality, 6 helps me cope.

[Killakobe81]

Last year you said if Duncan made the finals you would rank him over Kobe. You reneged and denied you ever said it.

This year you said if Duncan won it all you would rank Duncan over Kobe. You are now satin you are strongly leaning towards it.

Just admit you will flat out never rank Duncan over Kobe no matter how large the mountain of evidence is and get it over with.

As for building a team, big men are generally easier to build around because dominant ones are so hard to find, the game has changed to emphasize perimeter play but a legit big who can man the defense, pass and stretch the d is still a better piece to build as those are just so mch tougher to find than perimeter scorer.

In a way, it makes what Jordan did all the more impressive because he stood out so much from a larger pool of good players (wing guys) while the bigs are generally so dominant because they are battling against a smaller pool of talented players. When you look throughout nba history, there really isn't a consensus of who the greatest big is (Kareem, wilt, Russell) whereas Jordan is the clear cut best wing player by a few miles.

Amb you can be so full of shit. Did you forget that I said I believed duncan had taken the lead and Kool jumped all over me for it? Did you also forget that I said I would not debate the matter until after they both retired? Me saying I am leaning one way or the other shouldnt take anything away from the things that you and I have ALREADY discussed. I give you credit for a great post and yet you fling feces like the creature in your avvy ... my guess it's to get kudos from fellow posters or to somehow validate your own opinions. So for the record let me recap where I stand:

1. From 2000-2005 To me there was no debate clearly Timmy.
2. From 2005-2007 Kobe narrows the gap.
3. From 2008-2012 Kobe in my opinion Kobe takes a slim lead.
4. From 2012-2014 Timmy takes it back.

I could mention points, MVp's and titles for reasons why I feel that way... but tbh it's just my own personal feelings. the points MVp's performances and even rings are ALL things I take in to account. I already told you SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES I won't debate it until after they BOTH retire and so I have never reneged on anything ... and even if I did say something that you felt contradicted that how is even reneging? did we make a bet or a promise? You sound like a female right now tbh.

If anyone should admit anything it's you and the fact you simply detest Kobe. You have been called on it plenty of times even by spur fans on here. You hate his style of play, shot selection, leadership and his refusal to take back-seat to Shaq long-term. Nothing is wrong with that I dont like some of those things. We are all entitled to our opinions. You just act like it's not personal and try to hide behind stats or some bullshit "matrix of leadership" type reasons. CN is not as good a poster as you are but at least he admits he hates Kobe and is not a fan of MJ. Your arguments would be much stronger if you could at least admit that. In our back and forth I have shown far more respect and far less bias when discussing both players.

As for MJ come on now I can find ways to spin a case for Magic, Duncan, Kareem or even Lebron over Jordan. I saw Jordan play he is the GOAT period and despite it being easier to build around a "big" like Tim there is not a world where I would pick Tim over Jordan.I take Mj and figure out the rest. And I am far from a big Mj fan I would take Magic if I was speaking from a biased perspective.

[Killakobe81]

No one is saying Duncan > MJ individually. We're discussing the possibility that Duncan would be a better centerpiece for a long-term dynasty.

I get that and I still would take MJ.

[spurraider21]

1. From 2000-2005 To me there was no debate clearly Timmy.
2. From 2005-2007 Kobe narrows the gap.
3. From 2008-2012 Kobe in my opinion Kobe takes a slim lead.
4. From 2012-2014 Timmy takes it back.
not sure how you narrow the gap from 05-07, while duncan is still leading his team to titles

[ambchang]

Amb you can be so full of shit. Did you forget that I said I believed duncan had taken the lead and Kool jumped all over me for it? Did you also forget that I said I would not debate the matter until after they both retired? Me saying I am leaning one way or the other shouldnt take anything away from the things that you and I have ALREADY discussed. I give you credit for a great post and yet you fling feces like the creature in your avvy ... my guess it's to get kudos from fellow posters or to somehow validate your own opinions. So for the record let me recap where I stand:

1. From 2000-2005 To me there was no debate clearly Timmy.
2. From 2005-2007 Kobe narrows the gap.
3. From 2008-2012 Kobe in my opinion Kobe takes a slim lead.
4. From 2012-2014 Timmy takes it back.

I could mention points, MVp's and titles for reasons why I feel that way... but tbh it's just my own personal feelings. the points MVp's performances and even rings are ALL things I take in to account. I already told you SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES I won't debate it until after they BOTH retire and so I have never reneged on anything ... and even if I did say something that you felt contradicted that how is even reneging? did we make a bet or a promise? You sound like a female right now tbh.

If anyone should admit anything it's you and the fact you simply detest Kobe. You have been called on it plenty of times even by spur fans on here. You hate his style of play, shot selection, leadership and his refusal to take back-seat to Shaq long-term. Nothing is wrong with that I dont like some of those things. We are all entitled to our opinions. You just act like it's not personal and try to hide behind stats or some bullshit "matrix of leadership" type reasons. CN is not as good a poster as you are but at least he admits he hates Kobe and is not a fan of MJ. Your arguments would be much stronger if you could at least admit that. In our back and forth I have shown far more respect and far less bias when discussing both players.

As for MJ come on now I can find ways to spin a case for Magic, Duncan, Kareem or even Lebron over Jordan. I saw Jordan play he is the GOAT period and despite it being easier to build around a "big" like Tim there is not a world where I would pick Tim over Jordan.I take Mj and figure out the rest. And I am far from a big Mj fan I would take Magic if I was speaking from a biased perspective.

Are you kidding me? You brought the entire Kobe vs Duncan thing out of thin air and now you are accusin me of Kobe hate? Gimme a break man.

I have stated my case multiple times and there's no point in me rehashing them, but I would want to point out how you would say rings matter on one hand, and yet say Kobe narrowed the gap from 05 to 07 while Duncan won two rings during that period and Kobe played in two playoff series. I just can't even imagine a scenario where this could be argued from your stand point with any level of consistency.

As for MJ, I'd pick Duncan, Kareem, and maybe bird and magic over him to build a team. As a player though, MJ is tough to top.

[Killakobe81]

Are you kidding me? You brought the entire Kobe vs Duncan thing out of thin air and now you are accusin me of Kobe hate? Gimme a break man.

I have stated my case multiple times and there's no point in me rehashing them, but I would want to point out how you would say rings matter on one hand, and yet say Kobe narrowed the gap from 05 to 07 while Duncan won two rings during that period and Kobe played in two playoff series. I just can't even imagine a scenario where this could be argued from your stand point with any level of consistency.

As for MJ, I'd pick Duncan, Kareem, and maybe bird and magic over him to build a team. As a player though, MJ is tough to top.

Prove it internet tough guy I did not bring up Kobe except to say Duncan had a case over him Shaq and Bird. We were discussing Jordan. But for you it always comes back to Kobe. Oh I agree ringing in in 2005-2007 does matter but I thought that was a team accomplishment? Lol you kill me with your selective reasoning. Like I said won't debate it here but since as you say rinnging is a team accomplishment funny that is the first thing you point to ...

[Killakobe81]

Damn too bad I am not a great troll ...I could make amb my personal huckleberry

[ambchang]

Great post without all of the emo bullshit for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.


Prove it internet tough guy I did not bring up Kobe except to say Duncan had a case over him Shaq and Bird. We were discussing Jordan. But for you it always comes back to Kobe. Oh I agree ringing in in 2005-2007 does matter but I thought that was a team accomplishment? Lol you kill me with your selective reasoning. Like I said won't debate it here but since as you say rinnging is a team accomplishment funny that is the first thing you point to ...

Come on, it's in the same thread, it's not like it's that hard to find. You gotta step up your game in trolling. I know the Lakers are basically done for at least two years and there isn't much to look forward to as a Laker fan, but you gotta look at it from a basketball perspective.

We are all supposed to be basketball fan #1, NBA fans #2, team fans #3, and player fans #4. I admit I am very much an NBA guy and skipped most of the college international stuff, but I recognize a good team and good game when I see one.

As for the 2005-07 bit, you contradicted yourself. I don't have an issue with team accomplishments, but you consistently did when it was Kobe 5, Duncan 4. And then all of a sudden, Kobe closed the gap during 05 to 07 when the Lakers were horrible (by Laker/Spurs standards), and the Spurs won two championships. You gotta explain that reasoning of yours and not try to pull out the "I was trolling card". You contradicted yourself, and I want to see a reasoning. I never said Kobe didn't close the gap during 05-07 BECAUSE Duncan won two rings.

As for those three years, Duncan had three year win shares of 11.2, 10.8, 13.0. Kobe? 8.1, 15.3, 13. Duncan had a three year accumulation of 35 win shares, Kobe had 36.4. That was BARELY closing the gap.

In 18 years, Kobe had a 173 win share total, that's a little over 9.5 a year. Duncan had a 191.6 in 17 years, that's a little over 11 a year.


Damn too bad I am not a great troll ...I could make amb my personal huckleberry

[Cry Havoc]

1. From 2000-2005 To me there was no debate clearly Timmy.
2. From 2005-2007 Kobe narrows the gap.
3. From 2008-2012 Kobe in my opinion Kobe takes a slim lead.
4. From 2012-2014 Timmy takes it back.

Yes, that makes sense, Duncan dominating the Wallace brothers in Game 7 of the playoffs the year after Ben and Sheed completely smash Shaq and Kobe between the eyes. I could see how Kobe would make up ground to Tim in that time. :lol

[Cry Havoc]

This top 10 bullshit needs to stop.


Duncan is a top 5 player of all-time. Period. Jordan and Jabbar are the only guys who are clearly ahead of him. Everyone else you're going to have to decide what's important to you in order to put value over Tim's head. If he gets a title this year he's looking top 3 status dead in the eyes.

[scanry]

Prove it internet tough guy I did not bring up Kobe except to say Duncan had a case over him Shaq and Bird. We were discussing Jordan. But for you it always comes back to Kobe. Oh I agree ringing in in 2005-2007 does matter but I thought that was a team accomplishment? Lol you kill me with your selective reasoning. Like I said won't debate it here but since as you say rinnging is a team accomplishment funny that is the first thing you point to ...

Tim may have actually peaked in 2006 tbh. He was averaging 32.3/11.7/3.7/2.6 with plantar fasciitis against Dallas. He actually had 2.6 blocks/game. Tim was without doubt the MVP in the 2005 & 2007 playoffs. I don't know how you'd pick Kobe over Duncan in those years tbh. The Spurs were a Ginobili foul away from a 3 peat. That's how good they were especially on the defensive end.

Kobe did have his best year in 2008 though.

If you recap the eras.

Duncan - 1999, 2003 - 2007
Shaq - 2000 - 2002
Kobe - 2008 - 2009
Lebron - 2010 - Present

If you take away team success, Lebron has been the league's best player since 2007.

[daslicer]

T
Kobe - 2008 - 2009
Lebron - 2010 - Present

If you take away team success, Lebron has been the league's best player since 2007.

I would says if you factor in team success also Lebron was the best player since '08. Granted he didn't win rings until he went to Miami but he made the Cavs an elite team despite having mediocre talent around him. Kobe is a great player but he never owned the league. His run from '08-'10 had to do mainly with having a dominate frontline that nobody could match up with. Just look at how the Lakers went down when they finally ran into a team team in the '11 Mavs that had a frontline that could neutralize the Lakers 3 headed monster of Odom,Gasol,Bynum. Kobe needs dominant bigs to win and that is why the Lakers will not win another title with him since the league is pretty much devoid of great bigs.

[Killakobe81]

Come on, it's in the same thread, it's not like it's that hard to find. You gotta step up your game in trolling. I know the Lakers are basically done for at least two years and there isn't much to look forward to as a Laker fan, but you gotta look at it from a basketball perspective.

We are all supposed to be basketball fan #1, NBA fans #2, team fans #3, and player fans #4. I admit I am very much an NBA guy and skipped most of the college international stuff, but I recognize a good team and good game when I see one.

As for the 2005-07 bit, you contradicted yourself. I don't have an issue with team accomplishments, but you consistently did when it was Kobe 5, Duncan 4. And then all of a sudden, Kobe closed the gap during 05 to 07 when the Lakers were horrible (by Laker/Spurs standards), and the Spurs won two championships. You gotta explain that reasoning of yours and not try to pull out the "I was trolling card". You contradicted yourself, and I want to see a reasoning. I never said Kobe didn't close the gap during 05-07 BECAUSE Duncan won two rings.

As for those three years, Duncan had three year win shares of 11.2, 10.8, 13.0. Kobe? 8.1, 15.3, 13. Duncan had a three year accumulation of 35 win shares, Kobe had 36.4. That was BARELY closing the gap.

In 18 years, Kobe had a 173 win share total, that's a little over 9.5 a year. Duncan had a 191.6 in 17 years, that's a little over 11 a year.

I said that too bad I am NOT good at trolling. I am not contradicting myself. And I aint explaining shit. I already told your ass we will not discuss Duncan>kobe until BOTH have retired. You trying to get me to renege on something .. I clearly stated but question my integrity on some minor bullshit.

Again right now without diving in deep I would be foolish to argue for Kobe. Duncan has regained the edge imho. But that is not enough for you? You want to go in to it was already proven by winshare x titles + Finals MVp's + MVP's - missedplayoffs plus defensive rating ... and this last title doesnt matter ... UNTIL IT DOES ... :lol
And I could not care less. As Cry points out, everyone has a diffrent way of evaluating. How and why I do mine ... well of course a title is a big part of it, indvidual brillance, stats advanced stats and eye test all matter ... as well as health the past two years. But I will not say more than that ...if that is not enough for you ..tough shit.

My guess is we will be able to have our "Dance" in a few more years if we both are still posting here and Duncan/Kobe retire when expected. But for me to spend my time you have to at least ackowledge and find a way to deal with your bias in this argument or it wont be worth my while. We are both busy professionals if you cant debate with an open mind then why should I?

You the one that is insisting on it now ...and it is funny to me. But No, I am not trolling. Not really. and I did mean my compliment above ..you are a great poster when Kobe is not involved. But you almost make me lose faith in your abilty to have a discussion when you cannot admit your bias.

[ambchang]

I said that too bad I am NOT good at trolling. I am not contradicting myself. And I aint explaining shit. I already told your ass we will not discuss Duncan>kobe until BOTH have retired. You trying to get me to renege on something .. I clearly stated but question my integrity on some minor bullshit.

That is not minor, your entire case of Kobe > Duncan was around number of titles. Now that it's no longer there, and it's highly unlikely Kobe will ever win another title (maybe as a scrub ring chasing on another team ala Payton on Heat), you are saying that they are arguable.

Also, if you are so adamant on not discussing them, why do you keep pulling Kobe in response to my posts?


Again right now without diving in deep I would be foolish to argue for Kobe. Duncan has regained the edge imho. But that is not enough for you? You want to go in to it was already proven by winshare x titles + Finals MVp's + MVP's - missedplayoffs plus defensive rating ... and this last title doesnt matter ... UNTIL IT DOES ... :lol
And I could not care less. As Cry points out, everyone has a diffrent way of evaluating. How and why I do mine ... well of course a title is a big part of it, indvidual brillance, stats advanced stats and eye test all matter ... as well as health the past two years. But I will not say more than that ...if that is not enough for you ..tough shit.

You clearly cares, we've been arguing this back and forth for years on the same subject now.

And so now you are saying every single way you look at it, Duncan holds the edge, so why is it even arguable? it's not regaining the edge, Duncan is destroying Kobe career-wise. It's like saying the Spurs showed they were a bit better than the Heat in the finals. No, the Spurs destroyed the Heat.


My guess is we will be able to have our "Dance" in a few more years if we both are still posting here and Duncan/Kobe retire when expected. But for me to spend my time you have to at least ackowledge and find a way to deal with your bias in this argument or it wont be worth my while. We are both busy professionals if you cant debate with an open mind then why should I?

You the one that is insisting on it now ...and it is funny to me. But No, I am not trolling. Not really. and I did mean my compliment above ..you are a great poster when Kobe is not involved. But you almost make me lose faith in your abilty to have a discussion when you cannot admit your bias.

Not sure how I was biased in evaluating Kobe. I think he was a great player, would have loved him if he was willing to play his natural born 2nd banana role next to Duncan. He was clearly the best 2nd banana of all time at this point (even more so as Magic because Magic the 2nd banana wasn't as great as Kobe the 2nd banana), ahead of other career long 2nd bananas like Pippen and McHale. I'd put him as a top 20, likely top 15 player of all time, including the old timers, and that is ridiculously high given the number of players who have played.

He had serious flaws, refused to take ownership for his teams' failures while continued to take all the credit for the success, he had horrible shot selection for a primary scorer, he benefitted immensely from the league rule changes to create the next Jordan, he have issues recognizing situations and making the right decisions, he was a horrible clutch player who was overrated in that category his entire career, he had obvious ego issues, and he was borderline uncoachable, even from a guy who put Rodman in line.

[Killakobe81]

Come on, it's in the same thread, it's not like it's that hard to find. You gotta step up your game in trolling. I know the Lakers are basically done for at least two years and there isn't much to look forward to as a Laker fan, but you gotta look at it from a basketball perspective.

We are all supposed to be basketball fan #1, NBA fans #2, team fans #3, and player fans #4. I admit I am very much an NBA guy and skipped most of the college international stuff, but I recognize a good team and good game when I see one.

As for the 2005-07 bit, you contradicted yourself. I don't have an issue with team accomplishments, but you consistently did when it was Kobe 5, Duncan 4. And then all of a sudden, Kobe closed the gap during 05 to 07 when the Lakers were horrible (by Laker/Spurs standards), and the Spurs won two championships. You gotta explain that reasoning of yours and not try to pull out the "I was trolling card". You contradicted yourself, and I want to see a reasoning. I never said Kobe didn't close the gap during 05-07 BECAUSE Duncan won two rings.

As for those three years, Duncan had three year win shares of 11.2, 10.8, 13.0. Kobe? 8.1, 15.3, 13. Duncan had a three year accumulation of 35 win shares, Kobe had 36.4. That was BARELY closing the gap.

In 18 years, Kobe had a 173 win share total, that's a little over 9.5 a year. Duncan had a 191.6 in 17 years, that's a little over 11 a year.

I love how I make a case about Jordan make a refference to Kobe and the Amb is happy to switch mid-stream. You do realize the crux of my post that you quoted was that I dont care if "traditionally" it's easier to build around a big man, I would STILL take Jordan. It is that type of mind-set that leads to Hakeem over Jordan (not a horrible choice but still wrong), Bowie over Jordan (just terrible) and Oden over Durant. I take teh best player regardless of size...and you can attack this post I don't care ...but as great as Tim is top 10 etc. The gap between Jordan and duncan is great enough that despite him being a shitty leader, father gambler you STILL take Mj to build a team because he is the GOAT. PERIOD. The ultimate foundation regardles of size. Again Iw asnt even a big Jordan fan and was/is rooting for Lebron to surpass him to shut up the Jordan lovers.

But Amb has such a "stiffy" for Kobe one mention and the thread changes course for you ... so obsessed. Can I ask you Amb ...does it get your blood boiling when me or a real Kobe stan makes that argument? Does the mention of his name make your curse? Think back to my post. I gave you credit for a great post. I asked even if being sarcastic if you could try and apply that type of non emo reasoning to a Kobe related topic and what did you do? Gave some pretty good stats surrounded in some emotional BS about leadership etc.

Right now if you could make a logical argument not just based on stats without the extra you could probably win me over becvaus elike I said NUMEROUS times teh past two seasons pretty hard to make a case for Kobe right now. But when you get all in the he DESTROYS Kobe and duncan is winning in every single way mode you sound like a childish fanboy and not the intelligent poster you are, all jokes aside.

Amb I really did want to have a debate with you someday even if I lost ... I repected you that much .. but you make it harder with responses like these. I wont lie some of what I posted from time to time said were digs (not trolling in my book but again I am not good at it) but seriously why does the subject of Kobe make the quality of your posts suffer? Maybe I should seek out DPG or Cry for a lengthy debate instead.

[Killakobe81]

That is not minor, your entire case of Kobe > Duncan was around number of titles. Now that it's no longer there, and it's highly unlikely Kobe will ever win another title (maybe as a scrub ring chasing on another team ala Payton on Heat), you are saying that they are arguable.

Also, if you are so adamant on not discussing them, why do you keep pulling Kobe in response to my posts?



You clearly cares, we've been arguing this back and forth for years on the same subject now.

And so now you are saying every single way you look at it, Duncan holds the edge, so why is it even arguable? it's not regaining the edge, Duncan is destroying Kobe career-wise. It's like saying the Spurs showed they were a bit better than the Heat in the finals. No, the Spurs destroyed the Heat.



Not sure how I was biased in evaluating Kobe. I think he was a great player, would have loved him if he was willing to play his natural born 2nd banana role next to Duncan. He was clearly the best 2nd banana of all time at this point (even more so as Magic because Magic the 2nd banana wasn't as great as Kobe the 2nd banana), ahead of other career long 2nd bananas like Pippen and McHale. I'd put him as a top 20, likely top 15 player of all time, including the old timers, and that is ridiculously high given the number of players who have played.

He had serious flaws, refused to take ownership for his teams' failures while continued to take all the credit for the success, he had horrible shot selection for a primary scorer, he benefitted immensely from the league rule changes to create the next Jordan, he have issues recognizing situations and making the right decisions, he was a horrible clutch player who was overrated in that category his entire career, he had obvious ego issues, and he was borderline uncoachable, even from a guy who put Rodman in line.

Let me count the ways you proved my point:

1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.
2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the titles did not prove anything ... but whatever.
3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?
4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bullshit that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.

* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do. :rollin

[spurraider21]

Let me count the ways you proved my point:

1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.
2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the titles did not prove anything ... but whatever.
3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?
4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bullshit that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.

* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do. :rollin
as a spurfan in LA, the main thing i've heard in the duncan-kobe debates are the rings/scoring/81. many actually argue that Duncan was 2nd banana in 2007 and it was already parker's team then :lol. they take that farse of a series and the fMVP award pretty literally.

interestingly, even before the recent b2b, lakerfans i know would still argue Kobe > Duncan, and they would argue that 3peat is more impressive than 4 titles over 9 seasons. then once they won b2b it literally just became rings rings rings.

[Killakobe81]

as a spurfan in LA, the main thing i've heard in the duncan-kobe debates are the rings/scoring/81. many actually argue that Duncan was 2nd banana in 2007 and it was already parker's team then :lol. they take that farse of a series and the fMVP award pretty literally.

interestingly, even before the recent b2b, lakerfans i know would still argue Kobe > Duncan, and they would argue that 3peat is more impressive than 4 titles over 9 seasons. then once they won b2b it literally just became rings rings rings.

I admit I may overrate Kobe some, but I have the utmost respect for Duncan. On a related note I dont get why Some Spur fans are so quick to place Duncan over Kobe but not Duncan over Shaq. Even if duncan has surpassed Kobe (and Shaq) all of that is debatable especially Kobe vs. Shaq ...even if Shaq was the alpha on the 3peat.

[spurraider21]

I admit I may overrate Kobe some, but I have the utmost respect for Duncan. On a related note I dont get why Some Spur fans are so quick to place Duncan over Kobe but not Duncan over Shaq. Even if duncan has surpassed Kobe (and Shaq) all of that is debatable especially Kobe vs. Shaq ...even if Shaq was the alpha on the 3peat.
its not unexpected. a typical fanboy move is to shit on a player that left your team. most recently on ST, djohn has done it with parsons, lakerfans have done it to an extent with shaq. i always see that meme with kobe's 01 playoff stats saying "people be like, shaq carried kobe" when people dont realize the dynamic of having a force like shaq in the game. back then you rarely doubled kobe, and you have 3-4 guys keying in on shaq even when he didnt have the ball.

look at lakerfans when they acquired dwight, when they wanted him back, and then after he left

[Killakobe81]

its not unexpected. a typical fanboy move is to shit on a player that left your team. most recently on ST, djohn has done it with parsons, lakerfans have done it to an extent with shaq. i always see that meme with kobe's 01 playoff stats saying "people be like, shaq carried kobe" when people dont realize the dynamic of having a force like shaq in the game. back then you rarely doubled kobe, and you have 3-4 guys keying in on shaq even when he didnt have the ball.

look at lakerfans when they acquired dwight, when they wanted him back, and then after he left

Good points but I was talking about Spur fan. You seem pretty reasonable spuraider tip of the cap to ya ... all the same. I was never 100% sold on Dwight and said I did not want him if it took the max to keep him. Heck I did not even want Kobe at the max or close to it ...Shaq was absolutely a beast but there is a reason why he could not win without Phil and Kobe's development. (Kobe would not of won without him either ...) It was a legit 1-2 punch with Kobe getting closer to 1 as the year's moved on ...

But who cares? Back to the article. As amazing as Duncan is ... the Spurs front office, Pop's coaching coaching and Robinson's mentorship of Tim and of course his supporting cast could be argued are of the caliber the NBA has rarely seen and that sure gets short shrift on here except when it's convenient. Of course I get what the article is saying... but if it was so easy to win (especially now) and build around a big then why is no other recent big enjoying that kind of success? The Spurs model is so hard to follow not just because of Tim but how many players sacrifice like the SPurs culture gets it's players to do. Even Tony who gets so much heat has sacrificed himself for this team. If discussing Tim's legacy ...Tony become Enrique and Manu is wild. Pop an idiot.

When talking about the Spurs as a dynasty or where the current team ranks all-time ...all of a sudden they have the best team of recent years and would stomp out the Shaqobe Lakers and give Mj's Bulls a run for the money. Cannot have it both ways. Duncan is a great piece to build around but give me MJ. In fact I may also take Lebron but that is debatable too. Heck give MJ Pop and David in the early years and Kiwi and Tony later on and I think MJ wins just as easy if not more so than Duncan ...even if Tim was better fit or better leader. Jordan was THAT good imho. And the crux of the thread was about duncan compared to MJ not Duncan vs. Kobe.

[spurraider21]

Good points but I was talking about Spur fan. You seem pretty reasonable spuraider tip of the cap to ya ... all the same. I was never 100% sold on Dwight and said I did not want him if it took the max to keep him. Heck I did not even want Kobe at the max or close to it ...Shaq was absolutely a beast but there is a reason why he could not win without Phil and Kobe's development. (Kobe would not of won without him either ...) It was a legit 1-2 punch with Kobe getting closer to 1 as the year's moved on ...

But who cares? Back to the article. As amazing as Duncan is ... the Spurs front office, Pop's coaching coaching and Robinson's mentorship of Tim and of course his supporting cast could be argued are of the caliber the NBA has rarely seen and that sure gets short shrift on here except when it's convenient. Of course I get what the article is saying... but if it was so easy to win (especially now) and build around a big then why is no other recent big enjoying that kind of success? The Spurs model is so hard to follow not just because of Tim but how many players sacrifice like the SPurs culture gets it's players to do. Even Tony who gets so much heat has sacrificed himself for this team. If discussing Tim's legacy ...Tony become Enrique and Manu is wild. Pop an idiot.

When talking about the Spurs as a dynasty or where the current team ranks all-time ...all of a sudden they have the best team of recent years and would stomp out the Shaqobe Lakers and give Mj's Bulls a run for the money. Cannot have it both ways. Duncan is a great piece to build around but give me MJ. In fact I may also take Lebron but that is debatable too. Heck give MJ Pop and David in the early years and Kiwi and Tony later on and I think MJ wins just as easy if not more so than Duncan ...even if Tim was better fit or better leader. Jordan was THAT good imho. And the crux of the thread was about duncan compared to MJ not Duncan vs. Kobe.
A big part of the spurs culture is because Duncan is unselfish. How pop is such a godfather figure, how teammates of his get so much glory. Not many superstars as dominant as Duncan would be willing to step back the way Tim has.

As for this years spurs team, nobody will argue that Duncan was crazy dominant. He stepped up wen the situation demanded and took over at times, but how many stars would be cool with such a team oriented approach I wouldn't believe for a second that a Kobe led team could have looked like this years spurs even if you had the same roster tbh. Same could arguably have been said for MJ

[lefty]

Jordan better defensively?

Because we all know Pippen used to guard the other teams best perimeter players

[lefty]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horseshit at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

:lmao GODDAM

[lefty]

Stern also changed rules so DK could finally get past the Bad Boy Pistons :lol

Troof bomb.

That's why the Pistons didn't shake hands with them in 91.
Before that season started, MJ and Phil bitched to the NBA about their physical play.

Did the Celtics or Lakers whined to the league when they used to play them?
No, they responded on the court. Magic hit Isiah, Parrish punched the shit out of Laimbeer, Bird squared off with the same Laimbeer, etc...

[Splits]

As for this years spurs team, nobody will argue that Duncan was crazy dominant. He stepped up wen the situation demanded and took over at times, but how many stars would be cool with such a team oriented approach I wouldn't believe for a second that a Kobe led team could have looked like this years spurs even if you had the same roster tbh. Same could arguably have been said for MJ

You're seriously under rating TD's postseason run.

He led the team in minutes, PER, WinShares, offensive boards, defensive boards, total boards, FTA and blocks. Second on the team in PTS, FG%, and FGA.

http://i3.minus.com/joxi7YXAMcuvn.png

[ambchang]

I love how I make a case about Jordan make a refference to Kobe and the Amb is happy to switch mid-stream. You do realize the crux of my post that you quoted was that I dont care if "traditionally" it's easier to build around a big man, I would STILL take Jordan. It is that type of mind-set that leads to Hakeem over Jordan (not a horrible choice but still wrong), Bowie over Jordan (just terrible) and Oden over Durant. I take teh best player regardless of size...and you can attack this post I don't care ...but as great as Tim is top 10 etc. The gap between Jordan and duncan is great enough that despite him being a shitty leader, father gambler you STILL take Mj to build a team because he is the GOAT. PERIOD. The ultimate foundation regardles of size. Again Iw asnt even a big Jordan fan and was/is rooting for Lebron to surpass him to shut up the Jordan lovers.

Buddy, you introduced Kobe, and you are now blaming me for taking the bait? This is getting ludicrous. Yes, I am happy to engage in that argument, because I love spreading the gospel of how overrated Kobe is.

As for the Jordan stance, I can see your point, he was great, but he required a very specific team makeup that had him dominate the ball, another best of all time perimeter defender, and strong interior defenders who can shoot. That's not really an easy team to build at all.

As for Bowie over Jordan, not a lot of people saw that coming. Jordan wasn't showcased in Dean Smith's offense, Bowie was a phenomenal player before he got hurt (next Walton type who was going to revolutionize the game). And Oden vs. Durant was a real debate, Oden was the next Mutombo/Robinson type who will anchor a championship defense. Again, injuries took away that, and Durant was just perfect for today's offense. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, there were arguments fore and against each.

I would actually see almost every one taking over Jordan for your exact same reasons. He is the GOAT. I am just going for Duncan because a) I am Spurs fan, and b) Duncan really is a lot easier to build around, or at least he has proven so.


But Amb has such a "stiffy" for Kobe one mention and the thread changes course for you ... so obsessed. Can I ask you Amb ...does it get your blood boiling when me or a real Kobe stan makes that argument? Does the mention of his name make your curse? Think back to my post. I gave you credit for a great post. I asked even if being sarcastic if you could try and apply that type of non emo reasoning to a Kobe related topic and what did you do? Gave some pretty good stats surrounded in some emotional BS about leadership etc.

Right now if you could make a logical argument not just based on stats without the extra you could probably win me over becvaus elike I said NUMEROUS times teh past two seasons pretty hard to make a case for Kobe right now. But when you get all in the he DESTROYS Kobe and duncan is winning in every single way mode you sound like a childish fanboy and not the intelligent poster you are, all jokes aside.

Amb I really did want to have a debate with you someday even if I lost ... I repected you that much .. but you make it harder with responses like these. I wont lie some of what I posted from time to time said were digs (not trolling in my book but again I am not good at it) but seriously why does the subject of Kobe make the quality of your posts suffer? Maybe I should seek out DPG or Cry for a lengthy debate instead.

The issue I have with Kobe is not Kobe, it's the absolute lack of logic in overrating him. His flaws are obvious for all to see. It's like people arguing for Jordan being the undisputed GOAT (I don't agree, I think he's a top candidate, but Kareem, Magic, and Bird all have a say in this, not to mention old timers like Russell and Wilt), or Howard being the next Shaq. And like you mention, it's a hard case to make for Kobe, which is getting destroyed in my book. If there is little to no case for one side of an argument, it's no longer an argument.


Let me count the ways you proved my point:

1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.

How did this prove your point? Rings was a big part of your case, it's no longer there. I proves my point.


2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the titles did not prove anything ... but whatever.

It's destroying the case because your one and only case is no longer there. And no, Duncan after 2003 cemented it, his absolute dominance in 2003, and to an extent 1999 was NEVER duplicated by Kobe in any of those title runs (2002 was his closest, but he was still the clear #2 in those). 2004 onwards just added to it.

And for the record, I never put rings as an important consideration. It's a reflection that a player can be the core of the ultimate team success, but that is not an overly important part of evaluating an individual. How an individual led a team to the promised land is important to me, and that's why I do poke holes into how Jordan is the undisputed GOAT. He won one way, and one way only in a largely watered down league where he was clearly promoted as the face of the league. Compared that to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird and Duncan, who won in a variety of way by playing different roles on different championship teams, and I tend to have them level out the field.

That said, Jordan had the longest reign of dominance of any of those players, and had them coincide with team success. Kareem wasted a lot of his time in the 70s, Magic really took over the team for about 5 or 6 years, and back injuries robbed Bird of his dominance.


3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?

I guess it would be you and anyone reading the thread, but still not sure how this helps make your case. You even admitted that it's extremely tough to argue for Kobe, so how is this not a rout?


4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bullshit that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.

* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do. :rollin

Leadership qualities are extremely important in a team game. Kobe ran Shaq out of time, isolated himself with his teammates, threw his teammates under the bus repeated, clashed with his coach, and created an unstable environment throughout the years. The Lakers needn't be that bad from 2005 to 2007, they certainly didn't have to be this bad from 2012 onwards, and Kobe created a whole lot of that mess. And that is also one reason I knock Jordan down a peg because of his clashes with Krause. Krause created this team that fits perfectly with Jordan, and yet he didn't recognize it. He undermined the decision making, and took his petty views on Kukoc, where Kukoc could have been a major contributor for the Bulls. He created this air of intimidation which ultimately led to Horace Grant leaving them. He was lucky Jackson was around to manage those egos.

[kobe4life]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

[lefty]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.
Koballah is better than Duncan, MJ, Magic and Bird combined
Great Satan doesnt even belong in the conversation


:worthy: to Koballah's unmatched charisma, dedication and carrying Shaq and Pau to NBA titles

[Killakobe81]

Buddy, you introduced Kobe, and you are now blaming me for taking the bait? This is getting ludicrous. Yes, I am happy to engage in that argument, because I love spreading the gospel of how overrated Kobe is.

As for the Jordan stance, I can see your point, he was great, but he required a very specific team makeup that had him dominate the ball, another best of all time perimeter defender, and strong interior defenders who can shoot. That's not really an easy team to build at all.

As for Bowie over Jordan, not a lot of people saw that coming. Jordan wasn't showcased in Dean Smith's offense, Bowie was a phenomenal player before he got hurt (next Walton type who was going to revolutionize the game). And Oden vs. Durant was a real debate, Oden was the next Mutombo/Robinson type who will anchor a championship defense. Again, injuries took away that, and Durant was just perfect for today's offense. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, there were arguments fore and against each.

I would actually see almost every one taking over Jordan for your exact same reasons. He is the GOAT. I am just going for Duncan because a) I am Spurs fan, and b) Duncan really is a lot easier to build around, or at least he has proven so.



The issue I have with Kobe is not Kobe, it's the absolute lack of logic in overrating him. His flaws are obvious for all to see. It's like people arguing for Jordan being the undisputed GOAT (I don't agree, I think he's a top candidate, but Kareem, Magic, and Bird all have a say in this, not to mention old timers like Russell and Wilt), or Howard being the next Shaq. And like you mention, it's a hard case to make for Kobe, which is getting destroyed in my book. If there is little to no case for one side of an argument, it's no longer an argument.



How did this prove your point? Rings was a big part of your case, it's no longer there. I proves my point.



It's destroying the case because your one and only case is no longer there. And no, Duncan after 2003 cemented it, his absolute dominance in 2003, and to an extent 1999 was NEVER duplicated by Kobe in any of those title runs (2002 was his closest, but he was still the clear #2 in those). 2004 onwards just added to it.

And for the record, I never put rings as an important consideration. It's a reflection that a player can be the core of the ultimate team success, but that is not an overly important part of evaluating an individual. How an individual led a team to the promised land is important to me, and that's why I do poke holes into how Jordan is the undisputed GOAT. He won one way, and one way only in a largely watered down league where he was clearly promoted as the face of the league. Compared that to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird and Duncan, who won in a variety of way by playing different roles on different championship teams, and I tend to have them level out the field.

That said, Jordan had the longest reign of dominance of any of those players, and had them coincide with team success. Kareem wasted a lot of his time in the 70s, Magic really took over the team for about 5 or 6 years, and back injuries robbed Bird of his dominance.



I guess it would be you and anyone reading the thread, but still not sure how this helps make your case. You even admitted that it's extremely tough to argue for Kobe, so how is this not a rout?



Leadership qualities are extremely important in a team game. Kobe ran Shaq out of time, isolated himself with his teammates, threw his teammates under the bus repeated, clashed with his coach, and created an unstable environment throughout the years. The Lakers needn't be that bad from 2005 to 2007, they certainly didn't have to be this bad from 2012 onwards, and Kobe created a whole lot of that mess. And that is also one reason I knock Jordan down a peg because of his clashes with Krause. Krause created this team that fits perfectly with Jordan, and yet he didn't recognize it. He undermined the decision making, and took his petty views on Kukoc, where Kukoc could have been a major contributor for the Bulls. He created this air of intimidation which ultimately led to Horace Grant leaving them. He was lucky Jackson was around to manage those egos.

1. yet three of the poorest leaders (by your accounting) also have 6, 6 and 5 rings respectively.
2. Leadership is important but it does not all have to come from your best player in fact Duncan greatly from Pop just like Jordan relied on Phil
3. I agree Duncan probably is a better leader than Kareem, Jordan or Kobe but I am still not taking him first to build a team around (point of article lest you forget) over Kareem, Jordan or even Magic. Kobe? Like i said leaning Duncan now ...
4. Long messages doesnt mean you won an argument but ... if you feel so ... the belt is yours!
5. Kobe's flaws are obvious but not everyone is obsessed like you are ... but at least now you admitted something. Since he is overrated by some ...you feel the need to underrate him and DESTROY him (such a feminine word btw. It should be masculine but women are fond using the word for dramatic effect. I think it was Chris Rock who riffed on his wife telling him her problems ...oh crap I found it ... Click here >>>>Bigger & blacker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPesKyIhGZg)

If you go to you tube here is where it happens

01:02:05 Women, y'all exaggerate everything. You turn it into some Dynasty shit, like:
01:02:09 ''She's trying to destroy me!''
01:02:12 What the fuck are you talking about? You wrap up bags at J.C. Penney's!
01:02:17 What's she doing, ripping up your paper?

Look like I said I do respect you but I just find it humorous that you get that serious about this. Similar to how the overrating of MVPau used to irk me ...but much, much worse. I just dont remember going through that much trouble to argue something ... that apparently is sooo blatantly obvious to everyone.:lol
Would you spend so much time arguing Jordan vs. Wade? Just go back and look at way you describe this debate it just reminds me of Beyonce fans arguing how "Be" destroys Rhianna, Niki Manaj and Alicia Keys". Only kids and women get that emotional over their favorite things. I love a good debate but not when the person is so emotional on the subject at hand. Maybe in time you will find peace. And we can revisit at a later date. Too much hate in you.

[ambchang]

1. yet three of the poorest leaders (by your accounting) also have 6, 6 and 5 rings respectively.

No, they are not the poorest of the leaders. Jordan and Jabbar could do better, but they are not the poorest.

And the logic of ends justifies the means is faulty. Players can win even more championships, and sometimes teams win despite those flaws.


2. Leadership is important but it does not all have to come from your best player in fact Duncan greatly from Pop just like Jordan relied on Phil Agreed, in fact, I think David Robinson laid the foundation of the Spurs culture.


3. I agree Duncan probably is a better leader than Kareem, Jordan or Kobe but I am still not taking him first to build a team around (point of article lest you forget) over Kareem, Jordan or even Magic. Kobe? Like i said leaning Duncan now ...

You are not leaning, you have yet to come up with any arguments against picking Duncan over Kobe. I can see people picking Kareem, Jordan or Magic over Duncan, but there are arguments fore and against.


4. Long messages doesnt mean you won an argument but ... if you feel so ... the belt is yours!

Not sure where this came from.


5. Kobe's flaws are obvious but not everyone is obsessed like you are ... but at least now you admitted something. Since he is overrated by some ...you feel the need to underrate him and DESTROY him (such a feminine word btw. It should be masculine but women are fond using the word for dramatic effect. I think it was Chris Rock who riffed on his wife telling him her problems ...oh crap I found it ... Click here >>>>Bigger & blacker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPesKyIhGZg)

If you go to you tube here is where it happens

01:02:05 Women, y'all exaggerate everything. You turn it into some Dynasty shit, like:
01:02:09 ''She's trying to destroy me!''
01:02:12 What the fuck are you talking about? You wrap up bags at J.C. Penney's!
01:02:17 What's she doing, ripping up your paper?

Huge leaps of assumptions with the above. You are assuming:
a) I am not female
b) Words can be genderized based no a few skits
c) Women use words like "you" and "me" too in arguments, doesn't mean that they are feminine words
d) Using feminne words would somehow dillute the strength or logic of an argument
e) Beyonce fans are all females

and I never said I destroyed Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroys Kobe's legacy.

It is sad seeing you trying to argue by marginalizing a word I used, and the way to marginalize it is by calling the word feminine. It's pretty pathetic.


Look like I said I do respect you but I just find it humorous that you get that serious about this. Similar to how the overrating of MVPau used to irk me ...but much, much worse. I just dont remember going through that much trouble to argue something ... that apparently is sooo blatantly obvious to everyone.:lol
Would you spend so much time arguing Jordan vs. Wade? Just go back and look at way you describe this debate it just reminds me of Beyonce fans arguing how "Be" destroys Rhianna, Niki Manaj and Alicia Keys". Only kids and women get that emotional over their favorite things. I love a good debate but not when the person is so emotional on the subject at hand. Maybe in time you will find peace. And we can revisit at a later date. Too much hate in you.

If some idiots come and argue Wade > Jordan, I would argue the hell out of it, because that is just stupid.

And now you are trying to discount my arguments by claiming I have too much hate in me, as if I belong to the dark side or something. This is just getting out of hand.

[scanry]

Give it a rest guys.

arm, Killa is usually pretty unbiased. His Kobe fanaticism went away the moment Kobe signed 48.5.

[Killakobe81]

No, they are not the poorest of the leaders. Jordan and Jabbar could do better, but they are not the poorest.

And the logic of ends justifies the means is faulty. Players can win even more championships, and sometimes teams win despite those flaws.

Agreed, in fact, I think David Robinson laid the foundation of the Spurs culture.



You are not leaning, you have yet to come up with any arguments against picking Duncan over Kobe. I can see people picking Kareem, Jordan or Magic over Duncan, but there are arguments fore and against.



Not sure where this came from.



Huge leaps of assumptions with the above. You are assuming:
a) I am not female
b) Words can be genderized based no a few skits
c) Women use words like "you" and "me" too in arguments, doesn't mean that they are feminine words
d) Using feminne words would somehow dillute the strength or logic of an argument
e) Beyonce fans are all females

and I never said I destroyed Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroys Kobe's legacy.

It is sad seeing you trying to argue by marginalizing a word I used, and the way to marginalize it is by calling the word feminine. It's pretty pathetic.



If some idiots come and argue Wade > Jordan, I would argue the hell out of it, because that is just stupid.

And now you are trying to discount my arguments by claiming I have too much hate in me, as if I belong to the dark side or something. This is just getting out of hand.

1. If you are female that would make a lot more sense, tbh. If you are not, I stand by what I said. It sounded like a feminine response if the heels fit wear it girlfriend
2. How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today.
3. However, and I guess what your issue is ...that I think it was fairly close and just pushed him ahead the past two seasons. IS THAT your issue? IF so, so sad and if you want to throw pathetic around that is it, tbh. Not enough for you to win but you must DESTROY ME too? :lol
4. Dont be obtuse the words themselves were not feminine but the usage was ...it reminded me of that Chris Rock skit and I called you out on it.
Because again if it wasn't close or worth a debate why do you and others spend so much time on it?
5. I never said all of Beyonce fans are females. (who is taking a leap now) Men worship her looks and some her talent ...and she is HUGELY popular in the gay community ...this gay co-worker of mine does youtube videos to her all the time. (not a homophobe but those are 5 minutes of my life I want back). But the "behive" (her fanclub) and plenty of her fans that I have come across literally get mad when I say that she is cute but overrated or if I say I prefer Alicia Keys. They act like you act when I say Duncan is greater but it's close. That was my point. If it offended you, Oh well.
6. Come on Amb. You hate Kobe. Not saying you are evil or anything. I hate the Redskins and the Celts. Bill Laimbeer. Bulls version of Rodman. Heck I dont even like Derek Jeter (but I respect him and his pimp game have you seen his "hit list" ...and I am not talking about baseball) If i were to debate Jeter vs. Bonds for example or Cal Ripken I would at least admit I dont like the dude. That is all I am saying.
7. You do realize your hate is pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain? Right?
8. I must of struck a cord because now I am pathetic ... I do apologize though if you were offended ... it wasnt personal, just funny to me.

[ambchang]

1. If you are female that would make a lot more sense, tbh. If you are not, I stand by what I said. It sounded like a feminine response if the heels fit wear it girlfriend

And what seems to be the problem with that?


2. How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today. That's all I want to read.



3. However, and I guess what your issue is ...that I think it was fairly close and just pushed him ahead the past two seasons. IS THAT your issue? IF so, so sad and if you want to throw pathetic around that is it, tbh. Not enough for you to win but you must DESTROY ME too? :lol

It's not fairly close, and the 2014 championship didn't put Duncan over the top, he has always been > Kobe. My issue is the mindless emphasis on # of rings. Yes, the main goal of any player should be to win the championship, but it is not a cause for evaluation. It's like saying a CEO of company A > CEO of company B because company A makes more profit, and totally ignore other factors such as markets, client base, company make up and such.


4. Dont be obtuse the words themselves were not feminine but the usage was ...it reminded me of that Chris Rock skit and I called you out on it.
Because again if it wasn't close or worth a debate why do you and others spend so much time on it?

So now Chris Rock is some linguistic genius who can assign genders to word usage? First time I have heard of


5. I never said all of Beyonce fans are females. (who is taking a leap now) Men worship her looks and some her talent ...and she is HUGELY popular in the gay community ...this gay co-worker of mine does youtube videos to her all the time. (not a homophobe but those are 5 minutes of my life I want back). But the "behive" (her fanclub) and plenty of her fans that I have come across literally get mad when I say that she is cute but overrated or if I say I prefer Alicia Keys. They act like you act when I say Duncan is greater but it's close. That was my point. If it offended you, Oh well.

You like to argue Alicia Keys over Beyonce? You are one masculine man.


6. Come on Amb. You hate Kobe. Not saying you are evil or anything. I hate the Redskins and the Celts. Bill Laimbeer. Bulls version of Rodman. Heck I dont even like Derek Jeter (but I respect him and his pimp game have you seen his "hit list" ...and I am not talking about baseball) If i were to debate Jeter vs. Bonds for example or Cal Ripken I would at least admit I dont like the dude. That is all I am saying.

I don't like the fans and the overratedness. In terms of a player? I am neutral. The only player I dislike, or even hate, was pedophile.


7. You do realize your hate is pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain? Right?

That's the reason they only have half a brain.


8. I must of struck a cord because now I am pathetic ... I do apologize though if you were offended ... it wasnt personal, just funny to me.

You are not pathetic, the act of undermining an argument by associating feminine qualities to it is though. You are lucky this board is male dominated, or else the feminists will be all over you.

[ambchang]

Hey Killa

Didn't realize you are a female too.


Fair points but disagree about 2001 Lakers. As you said 2002 was a weak squad but 2001 had prime Shaq and Kobe playing elite level hoops. That Kobe shat on Bowen, so KL is great but Kobe has dominated better. With Phil and a great staff behind them. Also your last paragraph with MVPau pretty much destroyed the credibility of what you wrote before it. I get you live to troll and bash Kobe but that was calculated but childish.

Apparently, I destroyed my own argument according to you.


Lebron is the most dominant player but Kobe/Duncan/Manu are three of the most competitive and clutch players I ever seen ...plus Duncan would destroy Bosh more than Lebron could Kobe or Wade do Manu in fact the "Fire" that burn s in Kobe/Manu would make them hold their own.

Plus for the Heat Bosh is actually the best pure shooter of their bunch ...

Was this posted before or after you got led to the light by Chris Rock?

[Clipper Nation]

I think we need to invoke the mercy rule on this one, Killa is getting owned by amb worse than usual :wow

[spurraider21]

How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today.
if you were a betting man, do you anticipate that changing? at this point, in your opinion, what would kobe have to accomplish to claim > Duncan stature?

[Killakobe81]

if you were a betting man, do you anticipate that changing? at this point, in your opinion, what would kobe have to accomplish to claim > Duncan stature?

Doubtful tbh. Would take a whole lot to change it now. But to answer your question at least a Finals run and an ALL NBA type season. Legit one too not a sympathy one.

[Killakobe81]

Hey Killa

Didn't realize you are a female too.



Apparently, I destroyed my own argument according to you.



Was this posted before or after you got led to the light by Chris Rock?

As a man, Amb I stand by what I said. In the context of my post it made sense. If played by Bosh 1 on 1 in the post duncan would DESTROY Bosh. Do you have any problem with the premise of that statement? Duncan even at his advanced age is an amazing post player especially against undersized guys that can't handle his core strength. agree or disagree? Or did you go just hunting through my posts to find when I used the word destroy since I had ruffled your tail feathers? :lol
Do you see the proper way to use the word? I know you probably felt all proud pounding your pecs (or breasts) ...good find .... but it makes more sense for me to use than your case ... Duncan doesnt destroy Kobe's Legacy, come on now. Even if you feel it's not close ...re-examine what you wrote. How can another player being great or greater destroy someone's legacy?:lol That premise alone is faulty. But yes an argument can be destroyed ... as could Bosh be in the post by duncan.

As for Captain "Save em" CN, in the words of Jay "for all you other cats throwing shots at Killa ... you only get half a bar ... fuck yall niccas"

[Killakobe81]

And what seems to be the problem with that?

That's all I want to read.




It's not fairly close, and the 2014 championship didn't put Duncan over the top, he has always been > Kobe. My issue is the mindless emphasis on # of rings. Yes, the main goal of any player should be to win the championship, but it is not a cause for evaluation. It's like saying a CEO of company A > CEO of company B because company A makes more profit, and totally ignore other factors such as markets, client base, company make up and such.



So now Chris Rock is some linguistic genius who can assign genders to word usage? First time I have heard of



You like to argue Alicia Keys over Beyonce? You are one masculine man.



I don't like the fans and the overratedness. In terms of a player? I am neutral. The only player I dislike, or even hate, was pedophile.



That's the reason they only have half a brain.



You are not pathetic, the act of undermining an argument by associating feminine qualities to it is though. You are lucky this board is male dominated, or else the feminists will be all over you.

Of course you could not stop here. Im starting to wonder if you have a crush on me since you dropping hints you are feamale ... Sorry I am married and I dont like drama ...but you are intelligent. IF I ever am single again I will send you a pm I find intelligent females sexy.

[Killakobe81]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

:lol Move over to LG, homey!

[lefty]

:lol Move over to LG, homey!
Kobe4life :worthy:

[Killakobe81]

Kobe4life :worthy:

he is not always funny but that post was ...

[lefty]

he is not always funny but that post was ...
Kobe4life :worthy: doesnt have to be funny in order to be worshiped, but even when he isn't funny he is funny

[Killakobe81]

Kobe4life :worthy: doesnt have to be funny in order to be worshiped, but even when he isn't funny he is funny

Fair enough but I love the "work-out line" Duncan doesnt workout because never hear about it is pure genius ...and could come from LG, easily.

[Killakobe81]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

that line is pure genius ...

[ambchang]

As a man, Amb I stand by what I said. In the context of my post it made sense. If played by Bosh 1 on 1 in the post duncan would DESTROY Bosh. Do you have any problem with the premise of that statement? Duncan even at his advanced age is an amazing post player especially against undersized guys that can handle his core strength. agree or disagree? Or did you go just hunting through my posts to find when I used the word destroy since I had ruffled your tail feathers? :lol
Do you see the proper way to use the word? I know you probably felt all proud pounding your pecs (or breasts) good find .... but it makes more sense for me to use than your case ... Duncan doesnt destroy Kobe's Legacy, come on now. Even if you feel it's not close ...re-examine what you wrote. How can another player being great or greater destroy someone's legacy?:lol That premise alone is faulty. But yes an argument can be destroyed ... as could Bosh be in the post by duncan.

As for Captain "Save em" CN, in the words of Jay "for all you other cats throwing shots at Killa ... you only get half a bar ... fuck yall niccas"

No no no, you didn't have an issue with the way I used the word destroy, you had an issue with the word itself. No need to backpedal now.



5. Kobe's flaws are obvious but not everyone is obsessed like you are ... but at least now you admitted something. Since he is overrated by some ...you feel the need to underrate him and DESTROY him (such a feminine word btw. It should be masculine but women are fond using the word for dramatic effect. I think it was Chris Rock who riffed on his wife telling him her problems ...oh crap I found it ... Click here >>>>Bigger & blacker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPesKyIhGZg)

And to reiterate, I never set out to "destroy" Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroyed that of Kobe in comparison, much like now Duncan will likely destroy Bosh 1 on 1 in the block.

[Killakobe81]

No no no, you didn't have an issue with the way I used the word destroy, you had an issue with the word itself. No need to backpedal now.



And to reiterate, I never set out to "destroy" Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroyed that of Kobe in comparison, much like now Duncan will likely destroy Bosh 1 on 1 in the block.

Not backpedaling ...read what I wrote, "used for dramatic effect" which you did ...heck, even I did. I just feel it fit more in my case but it's fine ... Like I said you "won". In fact in so many ways.
1. You again derailed a thread that talked about Duncan in fact I was arguing Jordan and you switched the main focus to Duncan over Kobe.
2. Tried to blame me for it since I mentioned him ( a classic Amb move)
3. and when I concede (for all to see) Duncan is greater ... you try to get in this long drawn out debate with me on why it's not close.
4. I said something that hurt your feelings, sorry Amb. (2nd apology).
5. But I will not agree with you that it's not close. Duncan has the edge and it's not as close as it was a year ago but I aint co-signing the destroying bull-shit. You can write 10 more pages wont matter because like I said wont debate until after they retire.
6. But you are even sexier to me now, than you were two days ago, sweet cheeks!

[ambchang]

Of course you could not stop here. Im starting to wonder if you have a crush on me since you dropping hints you are feamale ... Sorry I am married and I dont like drama ...but you are intelligent. IF I ever am single again I will send you a pm I find intelligent females sexy.

There is another jump in logic, and I notice that you tend to do this quite often.

Hinting on the gender of a person is far from expressing interest. This type of thinking got your idol Kobe in trouble in Colorado.

[Thread]

This type of thinking got your idol Kobe in trouble in Colorado.

You've nary room. Your Neal raped & pillaged as well. Don't give it a second thought though, the girl was no account, just temporarily in the way.

[ambchang]

Not backpedaling ...read what I wrote, "used for dramatic effect" which you did ...heck, even I did. I just feel it fit more in my case but it's fine ... Like I said you "won". In fact in so many ways.

When was the word used for dramatic effect and when wasn't it? Was Bosh getting destroyed not for dramatic effect? What's really goiing to happen, Duncan posts Bosh up and Bosh falls down in pieces like the guy in Prometheus?


1. You again derailed a thread that talked about Duncan in fact I was arguing Jordan and you switched the main focus to Duncan over Kobe. You derailed the thread, you introduced the Kobe element, and we kept arguing Jordan.


2. Tried to blame me for it since I mentioned him ( a classic Amb move)

You did mention him, he would have been left out of the conversation if you didn't mention him to begin with.


3. and when I concede (for all to see) Duncan is greater ... you try to get in this long drawn out debate with me on why it's not close.

Why would you concede? You didn't want to discuss it. And when a Kobe lifer like you would concede the point, it's clear that it wasn't close to begin with.


4. I said something that hurt your feelings, sorry Amb. (2nd apology).

?


5. But I will not agree with you that it's not close. Duncan has the edge and it's not as close as it was a year ago but I aint co-signing the destroying bull-shit. You can write 10 more pages wont matter because like I said wont debate until after they retire.

Given that there are no arguments for Kobe, yeah, his legacy was destroyed by Duncan.

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;7551107]6. But you are even sexier to me now, than you were two days ago, sweet cheeks!

Thank you.

[Killakobe81]

When was the word used for dramatic effect and when wasn't it? Was Bosh getting destroyed not for dramatic effect? What's really goiing to happen, Duncan posts Bosh up and Bosh falls down in pieces like the guy in Prometheus?

You derailed the thread, you introduced the Kobe element, and we kept arguing Jordan.



You did mention him, he would have been left out of the conversation if you didn't mention him to begin with.



Why would you concede? You didn't want to discuss it. And when a Kobe lifer like you would concede the point, it's clear that it wasn't close to begin with.



?

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;7551107]5. But I will not agree with you that it's not close. Duncan has the edge and it's not as close as it was a year ago but I aint co-signing the destroying bull-shit. You can write 10 more pages wont matter because like I said wont debate until after they retire.

Given that there are no arguments for Kobe, yeah, his legacy was destroyed by Duncan.



Thank you.

I'm gonna stop here Amb, because I learned a long time ago if you dont stop a argument with a woman she never will. :blah
IF Duncan over Kobe is not enough for you ... I was never man enough to satisfy you in the first place ..like it or not though after all this we are :married:

[Killakobe81]

Are you kidding me? You brought the entire Kobe vs Duncan thing out of thin air and now you are accusin me of Kobe hate? Gimme a break man.

I have stated my case multiple times and there's no point in me rehashing them, but I would want to point out how you would say rings matter on one hand, and yet say Kobe narrowed the gap from 05 to 07 while Duncan won two rings during that period and Kobe played in two playoff series. I just can't even imagine a scenario where this could be argued from your stand point with any level of consistency.

As for MJ, I'd pick Duncan, Kareem, and maybe bird and magic over him to build a team. As a player though, MJ is tough to top.

Really, sweetheart? :lol

[ambchang]

I'm gonna stop here Amb, because I learned a long time ago if you dont stop a argument with a woman she never will. :blah
IF Duncan over Kobe is not enough for you ... I was never man enough to satisfy you in the first place ..like it or not though after all this we are :married:

Duncan over Kobe is pretty much widely accepted now, but my point is it wasn't because of the 2014 championship. My issue doesn't have much to Kobe, come to think of it, but the narrowmindedness of over valuing team accomplishments in evaluating an individual.


Really, sweetheart? :lol

Not for that point. Duncan > Kobe is an easy case to make, and I felt like I am taking advantage of you.

[Killakobe81]

Duncan over Kobe is pretty much widely accepted now, but my point is it wasn't because of the 2014 championship. My issue doesn't have much to Kobe, come to think of it, but the narrowmindedness of over valuing team accomplishments in evaluating an individual.



Not for that point. Duncan > Kobe is an easy case to make, and I felt like I am taking advantage of you.

:lmao

[UZER]

Troof bomb.

That's why the Pistons didn't shake hands with them in 91.
Before that season started, MJ and Phil bitched to the NBA about their physical play.

Did the Celtics or Lakers whined to the league when they used to play them?
No, they responded on the court. Magic hit Isiah, Parrish punched the shit out of Laimbeer, Bird squared off with the same Laimbeer, etc...

Phil was the master of all whiners. Sad thing is, everyone gets called a bitch for whining, yet Phil is given a "Zen Master" nickname for doing the exact same shit.

I'll never forget his crying about Brickowskis goon tactics when he had the goon of all goons Rodman on his team.

And the media let him get away with it.

[daslicer]

Phil was the master of all whiners. Sad thing is, everyone gets called a bitch for whining, yet Phil is given a "Zen Master" nickname for doing the exact same shit.

I'll never forget his crying about Brickowskis goon tactics when he had the goon of all goons Rodman on his team.

And the media let him get away with it.

Phil's whining shtick was annoying but I found it more annoying when he talked shit about a player or a team and if you responded he was given credit by the media for playing "mind games". The media made Phil into this Teflon character.

[UZER]

Phil's whining shtick was annoying but I found it more annoying when he talked shit about a player or a team and if you responded he was given credit by the media for playing "mind games". The media made Phil into this Teflon character.

Exactly my point.

[Killakobe81]

Exactly my point.

You guys are both correct. Phil was a genius manager of egos and a good leader of men. But also an asshole who has been outcoached numerous times. Disrespected Jerry West and takes far too much credit for his team's success. he laso was at least 1/3rd responsible for the Shaqobe feud.

[ambchang]

:lmao

You seem happy, female.