Spurs: DUNCAN: THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION by Jack McCallum

[scanry]

DUNCAN: THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION

July 3rd, 2014

I was walking through my local farmer’s market the other day when David, the Clover Farms butcher who was running a side of beef through a giant saw, hollered to me:

“Hey, Jack. Tim Duncan … top 10 of all-time?”

The question caught me off-guard, especially since I was concerned that he might chop off his hands at the wrist.

“Jeez, I don’t know,” I said. “Maybe not top 10. Maybe he’s 11?”

That got me thinking. Duncan is one of those players about whom no one has a bad thing to say. No one.

Yet he is probably not routinely placed in most top 10s. If he’s a center—which I think he is—he’s got the
whole Russell-Chamberlain-Abdul-Jabbar-Shaq-Mikan obstacle, and if he’s a power forward he’s got The Mailman, Sir Charles (though he always struck me as a small forward) and worthy ancients like Bob Pet and Elvin Hayes.

My own all-time starting fives usually consist of Jordan, Magic, Russell, Bird and Baylor (first team) and Robertson, West, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar (cheating and turning him into a forward) and now LeBron (second team). Never a thought to putting Timmy on either the first or second team, though, to his credit, Bill Simmons, in his The Book of Basketball, put Duncan all the way up at No. 7, and that was before the Spurs’ latest le, Duncan’s fifth.

But the question of where Duncan belongs in the pantheon gave way to a more interesting one that struck me after I heard a comment from David Robinson, his Spurs teammate alongside of whom Duncan won two of his five championships. Asked whether he would choose a young Jordan or a young Duncan to start a team, Robinson chose Duncan. Now, we can chalk up the Admiral’s choice up to loyalty, of course. But might Duncan be the correct answer?

Understand that I am the last person to be a revisionist on Jordan. Every time someone suggests that LeBron is better or that Scottie Pippen was actually the more important player on the Bulls’ championship teams, or that the Big O was a more complete version of MJ, or that you’d rather have Bill Russell than Jordan, I just say … no. No way. Jordan is the GOAT, and let’s move on.

But wondering about whom to start a team with is a different question … and perhaps the ultimate compliment a player can receive. I know that I should throw Russell and his 11 championships into this equation, but I’m not going to do it. Russell was great, and, in his own way more revolutionary than Jordan, Duncan or anyone else. But Russ didn’t have enough of an offensive game to be in this discussion, and, besides, he played in a different era.

I’m making my choice between Duncan and Jordan, and feel free to complain.

First, let’s acknowledge that you’d be in hoops heaven with either player; every year you have a chance to win a championship (they have a combined 11) simply because they are on your roster.

Since the default answer is Jordan, let’s start with him as the standard. What could you possibly get from Duncan that you don’t get from Jordan?

Offense? No. Jordan was better than Duncan.

Defense? No. Jordan, at his position, was at least as good, probably better as an on-the-ball defender and Duncan’s equal as a helper.

Competiveness? No. Duncan is a gamer, but Jordan was the ultimate gamer.

Clutch play? No. Jordan and Russell remain the greatest in that category.

What then?

Well, first, Duncan is the ultimate leader. Jordan was not a great leader in his early years, and, though his Alpha Male leadership undoubtedly carried the Bulls in the 1990s, I’m not sure how much longer it could’ve gone on had that team stayed together. Michael as Leader wore thin. And don’t forget that Jordan was helped by the Zen-ish hand of Phil Jackson.

As for Duncan, his leadership has worked for 17 seasons and will no doubt work next year, too. Even when Robinson was there, Duncan’s compe iveness and cool temperament steered the San Antonio ship. Because he almost never talked out of school–and quite often didn’t talk at all–it was hard to grasp that Duncan even was the leader. But he was and remains so.

Second, consistency. This is not to say that Jordan was inconsistent, for nothing could be further from the truth. But he was more unpredictable. Was this a season when Michael wanted to handle and direct the offense, be a kind of de facto point guard? Was this a season when Michael wanted to shoot more three-pointers? Was this a season when Michael wanted to post up and get the ball inside?

But Duncan, now 38, was the same player when he came into the league as he is now. That can be a problem if a player doesn’t evolve, but it’s not a problem when you come into the league fully evolved, which was the case with Duncan. Every season, Gregg Popovich knew around whom and, more importantly, how, to build his offense and his defense. Duncan would post up, score when necessary, rebound, make precision outlet passes, set picks, and defend the pick-and-roll better than anyone who ever exhaled CO2.

Duncan’s numbers are positively metronomic. He had 13 straight years of double-figure rebounding and was still at 9, 9.9 and 9.7 in the last three years. His field goal percentage is just silly consistent: Over 17 years he has always made about half of his shots (he’s never been below 48%), which is outstanding for someone who doesn’t dunk all that much and has that crazy-good bank shot from as far out as 15 feet.

That consistency is reflected in the Spurs’ record. Since 1997, when he was drafted out of Wake Forest, the Spurs have never failed to win 50 games, except for the 1999 strike-shortened season when they won the most games in the league, and, oh yes, a championship. That was Duncan’s first ring and his most recent came 15 years later. Only Abdul-Jabbar had more seasons between his first and last, and he did it with two different teams.

Third, more than any other superstar, Duncan brings no drama to the offseason, no drama to preseason camp, no drama to the regular season and no drama to the playoffs. There is a downside to this, I suppose, in terms of fan and media interest. But that makes absolutely no difference to Duncan or his franchise. There was opera around Jordan, opera around Magic, opera around Barkley, opera around Malone, opera around even Bird. But Duncan sings no arias. He punches a clock, plays his ass off and goes home, leaving behind no energy-sapping public relations nightmares to clean up.

Fourth, unselfishness. Duncan is not the only unselfish player who ever drew a paycheck. Magic Johnson was unselfish. John Stockton was unselfish. , for that matter, David Robinson was unselfish when he and Duncan played together. But it’s hard for me to imagine a more unselfish player than Duncan. He accepts his minutes on the bench and all the while encourages his teammates. He takes them aside for private conversations and rarely divulges what he says. He leads by example.

Fifth, that unselfishness has a very real oncourt translation. There are any number of great players who don’t/didn’t need to score to be effective, starting, of course, with Magic. LeBron is that kind of player, too.

But Duncan is in another category altogether. It’s not just that he doesn’t have to be the focus of the offense and is content to set picks, moving with incredible alacrity as the shot clock runs down. It’s more that he doesn’t even need to be in the play. Tony Parker has it going without the need for picks? Tim will go away. Kawhi Leonard feels it? Tim will go away. Tiago Splitter—who can’t carry Duncan’s sneakers as a player but has his moments—needs space inside? Tim will go away. There has never been a superstar so willing to give himself up on offense, yet be so ready when his number is called.

You add all this together and what does it mean? Well, I’ve convinced myself that, of all the players in NBA history, I would start a team with Duncan. I might miss some highlight footage that I would’ve gotten with Jordan. I might field some complaints that my team isn’t exciting enough (even if I do have the Argentinean Wrecking Ball, Manu Ginobili).

But here’s what I would be sure of with Duncan as a foundation: I will win championships over a sustained period of time, the loyalists in my franchise will stay with me, and I will have avoided a couple decades of migraines.

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2014/07/.../#.U-MmcKOiKM0

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horse at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

[Arcadian]

Nice.

Duncan = GOAT long-term foundation

[Thread]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

[jag]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

You've no room. Your Magic has a well-publicized history of fornicating with entire rooms full of men.

[Brazil]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horse at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

typical unreadable post

I have no ing clue of what you are talking about

this one cracked me up in particular: if he was so clutch why he loss a bet? wtf

[scanry]

typical unreadable post

I have no ing clue of what you are talking about

this one cracked me up in particular: if he was so clutch why he loss a bet? wtf

He's probably referring to MJ's gambling and other bets in 93.

[Clipper Nation]

Duncan > Dad KillerPERIOD

[Brazil]

He's probably referring to MJ's gambling and other bets in 93.

yeah but do you see a link between being clutch and loosing a gamble ?

[weebo]

When comparing Jordan to other less notable greats, why don't media types ever mention Jordan's relationship with the NBA/Stern? I mean Jordan had the NBA in his back pocket. He could grab, push off (Byron Rusell), travel, kill his own father; and yet, so much as breathe on him and Bavetta was there to whistle you up. Sure there were other high flying niggs at the time (Dominque, Clyde the Glyde, etc.) who could have easily been the "GOAT" of that generation, but no it was Jordan. Now, has Duncan ever received that kind of attention and treatment from the NBA?

[Clipper Nation]

When comparing Jordan to other less notable greats, why don't media types ever mention Jordan's relationship with the NBA/Stern? I mean Jordan had the NBA in his back pocket. He could grab, push off (Byron Rusell), travel, kill his own father; and yet, so much as breathe on him and Bavetta was there to whistle you up. Sure there were other high flying niggs at the time (Dominque, Clyde the Glyde, etc.) who could have easily been the "GOAT" of that generation, but no it was Jordan. Now, has Duncan ever received that kind of attention and treatment from the NBA?

Stern also changed rules so DK could finally get past the Bad Boy Pistons

[ambchang]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

[scanry]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

Too bad he's surpassed Kobe and is standing tall as the Player of the Post Jordan Era. You were pretty smug with Kobe ringing in 2010, weren't you? Even after 6, you were pretty confident that Duncan would have his redemption.

[Thread]

You've no room. Your Magic has a well-publicized history of fornicating with entire rooms full of men.

True, but, it is still sweeter than apple butter that your Duncan fornicates the same way. You Lorded it over us for umpteenth years our rape and our . Now you have a rapist and your have a sexual. ha, ha, jag, ha, ha.

[-21-]

[baseline bum]

True, but, it is still sweeter than apple butter that your Duncan fornicates the same way. You Lorded it over us for umpteenth years our rape and our . Now you have a rapist and your have a sexual. ha, ha, jag, ha, ha.

If Duncan did, where's his AIDS to prove it son?

[UZER]

Lettin' Amy & Shawn break his already well traveled Lincoln Tunnel.

Still shining shoes Dale?

[Killakobe81]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

Great post without all of the emo bull for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.

[Splits]

I don't even understand why Duncan wouldn't be a top 10 player in the league.

He was one of the best help defenders in the league history, he was, at worst, had the third best low post game in the history of the league (behind Hakeem and McHale), he evolved into a fantastic low post passer, he did the dirty work, he was the floor leader and anchor for the Spurs on both offense and defense for championship teams, he won the championship with 4 (some can argue 5) very different iterations of the Spurs (1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007, 2014).

Duncan is easily one of the top 10 of all time.

In terms of building a team, Duncan is even better, as the article stated. Jordan wasn't particularly great to build a team around. He was ball dominant, he requires a bunch of bigs who can do the dirty work inside (defend, grab rebounds) and can shoot a decent mid range jumper, and those players are not easy to find, he requires another ball handler to allow him to post up during the later stretches of his career. He was absolutely dominant in his game, and can impose his will on his opponents, but there are ways to beat Jordan while allowing him to go off if he didn't have the right teammates. Duncan on the other hand, adapts his game depending on the players around him, maximizing their strengths so that the team can compete year after year.

Amb

[Arcadian]

Great post without all of the emo bull for the most part. Apply the same thing to your Duncan>Kobe posts you would have my attention probably change my mind (which I am leaning to anyways). Great article Duncan is great we all know that. Better than MJ? dont agree. Leadership appears to favor Duncan but I love how MJ had Phil as a leader and Duncan had an even better one in Pop. So for me,those two cancel each other out. And to me it's just as subjective as MJ's competiveness and shouldnt really matter here. Duncan has a strong case over Kobe, Shaq and Bird etc. but it is very debatable.
I still would place MJ Magic and Kareem over him though.

No one is saying Duncan > MJ individually. We're discussing the possibility that Duncan would be a better centerpiece for a long-term dynasty.

[UZER]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce compe or that he had to walk away?

[Thread]

Too bad he's surpassed Kobe and is standing tall as the Player of the Post Jordan Era. You were pretty smug with Kobe ringing in 2010, weren't you? Even after 6, you were pretty confident that Duncan would have his redemption.

The Bag stays in Texas till further notice.

[Thread]

Duncan didn't quit on his team in the prime of his career. Jordan was such a fierce compe or that he had to walk away?

True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman. Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.

Lord-a-mercy.

[Thread]

Amb

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[UZER]

True, but, Duncan did allow himself to get shanghaied by a white woman. Everybody thought she was so dainty & unassuming. Uh, uh. Amy took him by the scruff of the neck and taught him exactly where the bear in the buckwheat. Put the fear of God into that Timmy.

Lord-a-mercy.

Riiiiight. Juanita got 168 milli, Amy got a karate dojo with Daniel Laruso included.