New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene

[spurraider21]

If you really could not get markets for the truck and thge corpse from the link provided then that is pretty sad. Try clothing your mouth.

I do enjoy the shill act though acting objective and the like.
I never said he was inaccurate :lol. The pictures posted on that link didn't have markers, and I just found it funny that it required independent research on behalf of the reader

[TheSanityAnnex]

So Brown was 35 feet away?

Hm.
Twitter users and websites like this are credible right?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How do shell casings near Brown's body support being shot over 100' away?

I think you should relisten to the cops statement King takes issue with and then retry your regurgitation of someone else's argument.

The first shots were fired from the car. He then chased Brown down before braining him. Of course he couldn't hit him from over 100 feet.

You wave your hands behind one witness that says he 'came back' at Wilson, trying to make it seem that he was in some form of danger and spam. Now you are spamming someone else's stuff with one brain and crying about how King's material was not all original with the same pea brain.

I am not going to argue with your interpretation of someone else's argument though. You are dumb and reconstruct shit into simpler terms you can understand. It's frustrating like trying to teach stupid children algebra so I choose not to do it any more. I feel nauseated as it is.

Now jump head first off a balcony.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I never said he was inaccurate :lol. The pictures posted on that link didn't have markers, and I just found it funny that it required independent research on behalf of the reader

It didn't tell you how to use google maps either. ever think it might just be you being lazy? are you high for example?

[spurraider21]

It didn't tell you how to use google maps either. ever think it might just be you being lazy? are you high for example?
Not surprised that you're trying to turn this around and make it all about me :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not surprised that you're trying to turn this around and make it all about me :lol

You made it about what you don't see. That was your argument: claim he is a 'debunker' and then point out things you don't see.

You made it about you. If you would prefer we could talk about the driveways which I used from the photos provided to make my own placements. I even gave you the address.

You then repeat yourself that you don't see anything.

I get it.

[ChumpDumper]

Twitter users and websites like this are credible right?So how far away do you conclude he was shot since you apparently read everything you spammed here?

[spurraider21]

You made it about what you don't see. That was your argument: claim he is a 'debunker' and then point out things you don't see.

You made it about you. If you would prefer we could talk about the driveways which I used from the photos provided to make my own placements. I even gave you the address.

You then repeat yourself that you don't see anything.

I get it.
It wasn't about what I couldn't see. It was about what wasn't provided in the link. Which photo in they link showed a driveway by brown?

You turned it into me supposedly being high :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i would figure a site where a guy supposedly has proof of a debunking would have had it all on his page instead of forcing his readers to conduct their own research

lol force

[spurraider21]

lol force
So ad hominum + semantics? :rollin

what's next, are you going to challenge my use of punctuation?

[TheSanityAnnex]

I think you should relisten to the cops statement King takes issue with and then retry your regurgitation of someone else's argument.

The first shots were fired from the car. He then chased Brown down before braining him. Of course he couldn't hit him from over 100 feet.

You wave your hands behind one witness that says he 'came back' at Wilson, trying to make it seem that he was in some form of danger and spam. Now you are spamming someone else's stuff with one brain and crying about how King's material was not all original with the same pea brain.

I am not going to argue with your interpretation of someone else's argument though. You are dumb and reconstruct shit into simpler terms you can understand. It's frustrating like trying to teach stupid children algebra so I choose not to do it any more. I feel nauseated as it is.

Now jump head first off a balcony.

King's theory has already been debunked.

The 4 witnesses you quoted were exposed as liars and have since changed their story.

Your autopsy report was by the unlicensed Shawne Parcells.

You haven't brought one piece of credible evidence to this discussion.

It's amusing how much you tout critical thinking and empirical evidence yet source some activist on twitter, well done.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So how far away do you conclude he was shot since you apparently read everything you spammed here?

My guess is ten yards and closing as Brown charged Wilson. I firmly believe the witness caught on audio has the only true account, and that witness has come forward to speak with detectives. The other witnesses have already changed their stories since the autopsy report came out.

[ChumpDumper]

My guess is ten yards and closing as Brown charged Wilson. I firmly believe the witness caught on audio has the only true account, and that witness has come forward to speak with detectives. The other witnesses have already changed their stories since the autopsy report came out.So he was shot six to eight times at 35 feet and further.

How many yards had he already been "charging" to so terrify the cop into shooting him that many times? 10? 20?

[TheSanityAnnex]

So he was shot six to eight times at 35 feet and further.

How many yards had he already been "charging" to so terrify the cop into shooting him that many times? 10? 20?

I said shot within 10 yards and closing. Where do you get 35+ feet from?
Wilson used as many shot necessary to neutralize the threat. Are you one of those that believe one bullet instantly kills someone? Mike Brown was no small guy either. First shots hit him in the arm as he's charging and don't slow him down, next shots in the head finally stop him. imo of course.

[ChumpDumper]

I said shot within 10 yards and closing. Where do you get 35+ feet from?
Wilson used as many shot necessary to neutralize the threat. Are you one of those that believe one bullet instantly kills someone? Mike Brown was no small guy either. First shots hit him in the arm as he's charging and don't slow him down, next shots in the head finally stop him. imo of course.Yes, we all know what a scary huge black man he was. You can't stop talking about how scared you would be of him.

So all the shots were within 10 yards? How did you determine that?

And you didn't answer how many yards enormous scary black man was charging before he got shot. He had to start charging some distance for it to be described as charging. so how far did he charge to get within 10 yards and closing. How far did he charge scarily and hugely while he was being shot six to eight times? 10 yards? 20? Did he stop at any time after being shot any of the times before dying? Or did he just keep charging like the marijuana enraged behemoth blogs say he was?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Yes, we all know what a scary huge black man he was. You can't stop talking about how scared you would be of him.

So all the shots were within 10 yards? How did you determine that?

And you didn't answer how many yards enormous scary black man was charging before he got shot. He had to start charging some distance for it to be described as charging. so how far did he charge to get within 10 yards and closing. How far did he charge scarily and hugely while he was being shot six to eight times? 10 yards? 20? Did he stop at any time after being shot any of the times before dying? Or did he just keep charging like the marijuana enraged behemoth blogs say he was?

Those are questions to be answered by someone who was there, I can not answer those for you. I am tweeting your questions to Shaun King to get you definitive answers.

[ChumpDumper]

Those are questions to be answered by someone who was there, I can not answer those for you. I am tweeting your questions to Shaun King to get you definitive answers.lol deflection

Thanks for acknowledging the police story sounds fishy as hell using the facts you accept as true.

[TheSanityAnnex]

lol deflection

Thanks for acknowledging the police story sounds fishy as hell using the facts you accept as true.
I'm going off the audio from the witness. The only fishy stories were the original 4 witnesses, and they've since changed them after they were told their stories stunk. It's funny how people are trying to sweep that under the rug like it never happened.

[spurraider21]

I'm going off the audio from the witness. The only fishy stories were the original 4 witnesses, and they've since changed them after they were told their stories stunk. It's funny how people are trying to sweep that under the rug like it never happened.
I haven't heard said audio recording. What's in it?

[TheSanityAnnex]

I haven't heard said audio recording. What's in it?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/08/17/the-hidden-audio-of-mike-brown-shooting-eye-witness-a-witness-conversation-unknowingly-captured-at-the-scene-of-the-ferguson-shooting-is-a-game-changer/

[TheSanityAnnex]

Those are questions to be answered by someone who was there, I can not answer those for you. I am tweeting your questions to Shaun King to get you definitive answers.


As soon as he responds I will get you those answers Chump.
http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/Screenshot2014-09-20at21010PM_zpsb1eb1e18.png (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/thefuzzylumpkins/media/Screenshot2014-09-20at21010PM_zpsb1eb1e18.png.html)

[vy65]

Lol

[TheSanityAnnex]

Haven't heard back from Shaun yet he is probably too busy right now being a family man, author, activist, techie, entrepreneur, teacher, humanitarian, fighter, mountaineer, organizer, web developer, soccer coach, or citizen of the world. I did get an answer though to one of your questions.


http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s679/thefuzzylumpkins/Screenshot2014-09-20at34907PM_zpsf06b4eb4.png (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/thefuzzylumpkins/media/Screenshot2014-09-20at34907PM_zpsf06b4eb4.png.html)

[ChumpDumper]

I'm going off the audio from the witness. The only fishy stories were the original 4 witnesses, and they've since changed them after they were told their stories stunk. It's funny how people are trying to sweep that under the rug like it never happened.What did the guy who shot the enormous scary black monster say about his charging and where he was when he started catching bullets? What does the police report say?

[TheSanityAnnex]

What did the guy who shot the enormous scary black monster say about his charging and where he was when he started catching bullets? What does the police report say?
I will be happy to ask him but I don't have his twitter handle. If you can provide me that I can ask for you.

[ChumpDumper]

I will be happy to ask him but I don't have his twitter handle. If you can provide me that I can ask for you.lol more delfection

Thanks again. If those questions aren't answered, everyone has every right to be skeptical of the police narrative.

[ChumpDumper]

And why were you afraid to use your own twitter handle?

You live in constant fear, dude. That's cause for pity.

[TheSanityAnnex]

lol more delfection

Thanks again. If those questions aren't answered, everyone has every right to be skeptical of the police narrative.
You are asking me to do the impossible if you can't provide a name.

[TheSanityAnnex]

And why were you afraid to use your own twitter handle?

You live in constant fear, dude. That's cause for pity.
Twitter is not my style, I don't have my own handle, don't have a facebook/myspace either. I will have fun with your handle though.

[Fabbs]

lol more delfection
lol more deflection.
Ask him yourself from your own twitter handles.

[vy65]

What did the guy who shot the enormous scary black monster say about his charging and where he was when he started catching bullets? What does the police report say?

Typically grand jury proceedings are confidential, and those who testify before the jury are under an obligation to keep silent about the substance of their testimony until the grand jury acts.

[ChumpDumper]

You are asking me to do the impossible if you can't provide a name.You don't know the name of the officer who killed the scary black man?

WTF?


Twitter is not my style, I don't have my own handle, don't have a facebook/myspace either. I will have fun with your handle though.Twitter is your style because you are using it. Fear is your style because you live it.

[ChumpDumper]

Typically grand jury proceedings are confidential, and those who testify before the jury are under an obligation to keep silent about the substance of their testimony until the grand jury acts.So the public has no right to know how a public servant killed a citizen?

I find that difficult to believe.

[vy65]

So the public has no right to know how a public servant killed a citizen?

I find that difficult to believe.


No. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/494/624/

[ChumpDumper]

No. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/494/624/I'm not talking about grand jury testimony. I'm talking about a police incident report.

[Fabbs]

Twitter is your style because you are using it.
lol more deflection.
Ask him yourself from your own twitter handles.

[vy65]

I'm not talking about grand jury testimony. I'm talking about a police incident report.

Sure you were. At least partly.


What did the guy who shot the enormous scary black monster say about his charging and where he was when he started catching bullets?

[ChumpDumper]

lol more deflection.
Ask him yourself from your own twitter handles.I don't have any twitter handles. What is the cop's twitter handle?


Sure you were. At least partly.Nope. In no part.

That should be in the incident report.

Pretty simple.

[vy65]

I don't have any twitter handles. What is the cop's twitter handle?

Nope. In no part.

That should be in the incident report.

Pretty simple.

Right. There should be. But you also asked:


What did the guy who shot the enormous scary black monster say about his charging and where he was when he started catching bullets?

And you have the answer.

lol deflection

[ChumpDumper]

Right. There should be. But you also asked:Should also be in the report.

I don't have my answer.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So the public has no right to know how a public servant killed a citizen?

I find that difficult to believe.
He shot him in the head with a gun.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I don't have any twitter handles. What is the cop's twitter handle?



Pretty simple.

You do now.

Find out his handle and I'll ask him, although I doubt he's answering many questions from the public at this time.

[vy65]

Should also be in the report.

I don't have my answer.

What's the point in restricting a grand jury witness's ability to speak publicly about his/her testimony before the grand jury if you could just look at the incident report and get that testimony?

[ChumpDumper]

He shot him in the head with a gun.If that is the only information to go on, the cop should go to jail.

[ChumpDumper]

What's the point in restricting a grand jury witness's ability to speak publicly about his/her testimony before the grand jury if you could just look at the incident report and get that testimony?That isn't grand jury testimony. That is a police incident report.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Justin Bieber responded to ChumpDumper, got any questions you want me to ask him while I have his attention? I've filled him in on the Mike Brown case, he wants justice.

[vy65]

That isn't grand jury testimony. That is a police incident report.

Right, and the gag order is circumvented if you release the incident report.

[ChumpDumper]

Right, and the gag order is circumvented if you release the incident report.Why is there a gag order specifically on the incident report?

[ChumpDumper]

Justin Bieber responded to ChumpDumper, got any questions you want me to ask him while I have his attention? I've filled him in on the Mike Brown case, he wants justice.You'll do anything to avoid simple questions.

[vy65]

Why is there a gag order specifically on the incident report?

Because the statements made in the incident report are made by a grand jury witness.

[ChumpDumper]

Because the statements made in the incident report are made by a grand jury witness.Not to a grand jury. There was no grand jury when that report was made.

[vy65]

Not to a grand jury. There was no grand jury when that report was made.

Again, what's the purpose in having a gag order on grand jury witnesses if you can get the substance of their testimony from an incident report?

[Fabbs]

Justin Bieber responded to ChumpDumper, got any questions you want me to ask him while I have his attention? I've filled him in on the Mike Brown case, he wants justice.
:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Again, what's the purpose in having a gag order on grand jury witnesses if you can get the substance of their testimony from an incident report?Can you?

I say no.

Sorry, if a witness already said something in an interview to the press which had already been reported before a grand jury convened, a gag order isn't going to stop the previous interview from being shown ever again until the grand jury investigation is over.

[vy65]

Can you?

I say no.

Sorry, if a witness already said something in an interview to the press which had already been reported before a grand jury convened, a gag order isn't going to stop the previous interview from being shown ever again until the grand jury investigation is over.

You can if the statements in the report are the same as the grand jury testimony.

An interview with the press isn't the same as a police incident report.

[TheSanityAnnex]

An interview with the press isn't the same as a police incident report.
:lol Dorian Johnson learned that one the hard way.

[ChumpDumper]

You can if the statements in the report are the same as the grand jury testimony.

An interview with the press isn't the same as a police incident report.How is it different?

Is one less legal than the other?

Please explain.

[vy65]

How is it different?

Is one less legal than the other?

Please explain.

Are you asking me what the difference is between a media interview and an police interview?

[ChumpDumper]

Are you asking me what the difference is between a media interview and an police interview?In regards to a grand jury gag order, yes.

[vy65]

In regards to a grand jury gag order, yes.

What do you mean in regards to a gag order? Your original question was why we haven't heard from Wilson, whether in an interview or through the report. My question to you is why would we have?

Statements in a report are considered more reliable because they carry potential criminal liability. The records custodian can keep it confidential.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you mean in regards to a gag order? Your original question was why we haven't heard from Wilson, whether in an interview or through the report. My question to you is why would we have?

Statements in a report are considered more reliable because they carry potential criminal liability. The records custodian can keep it confidential.So what is the legal precedent that declares it to be so? the one that specifically includes police reports and excludes interviews?

[vy65]

So what is the legal precedent that declares it to be so? the one that specifically includes police reports and excludes interviews?

Your question is unclear -- what do you mean "to be so."

You can be indicted for obstruction of justice for lying in a police report. Not so much for a cnn interview.

[ChumpDumper]

Your question is unclear -- what do you mean "to be so."

You can be indicted for obstruction of justice for lying in a police report. Not so much for a cnn interview.It's not unclear.

So what is the legal precedent that declares it to be subject to a gag order when an interview isn't?

[vy65]

It's not unclear.

So what is the legal precedent that declares it to be subject to a gag order when an interview isn't?

Sure it's unclear.

All statements would be subject to the gag order. Hence why we haven't heard from Wilson in an interview, seen the report, or otherwise.

[spurraider21]

It's not unclear.]
if your question is not fully understood by the person to whom it is directed, it is by definition unclear

[ChumpDumper]

Sure it's unclear.

All statements would be subject to the gag order. Hence why we haven't heard from Wilson in an interview, seen the report, or otherwise.You're still confused.

We're talking about statements made before the grand jury.

Or you're just stalling. Whatever. I don't think you would or could answer it either way.

[ChumpDumper]

if your question is not fully understood by the person to whom it is directed, it is by definition unclearI cant understand for him.

[ChumpDumper]

Will check back later.

I fully expect more stalling and feigned indignance.

[spurraider21]

I cant understand for him.
nevertheless that doesn't mean it wasn't unclear

[Fabbs]

Will check back later.
You the Deflection Queen are taking a break?
Or is night shift Rumpy coming on?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The only thing I bring up is the contractors testimony and the distances involved. Instead spammer claims that his spam is what I am arguing. It's bad enough that he poorly understands the arguments but instead he points to shit I am not even talking about.

The police said that the distance from the car to the shooting was 35 feet. It's that first youtube.

The distance from where brown was killed to where the car door was is at least 140 feet.

If you want to believe that Mike Brown sprinted over 40 yards and then charged back at the cop to die 35 yards away then go right ahead.

Seems like the cop chased him down until he got him in range and then brained him. As the contractor said, the cop said nothing and then just shot him when he got up in range. You can see the contractor mime the motion that Brown was making right before he was shot.

Another thing is why did the cop approach him like that even to apprehend him when he clearly deemed any resistance required lethal force to protect himself. His cop friends were there in a minute and Brown was running down the middle of the street. He is in his car. Instead he gets out of his car and chases him 100 feet where he is 'forced' to use his weapon again this time with a killing blow.

I will be interested to see how this plays out with the grand jury.

[Fabbs]

If you want to believe that Mike Brown sprinted over 40 yards and then charged back at the cop to die 35 yards away then go right ahead.

Seems like the cop chased him down until he got him in range and then brained him.
In your YouTube theory.....
At what point did Brown turn around? And why exactly did Brown turn around.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In your YouTube theory.....
At what point did Brown turn around? And why exactly did Brown turn around.

I'm not sure. I only know that Brown had to run at least 35 yards to die where he did. The other theories presented here say he went even farther and came back.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

About a half-hour later, the worker heard a gunshot. Then he saw Brown running away from a police car. Wilson trailed about 10 to 15 feet behind, gun in hand. About 90 feet away from the car, the worker said, Wilson fired another shot at Brown, whose back was turned.

The worker said Brown stumbled and then stopped, put his hands up, turned around and said, “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” He said he told investigators from the St. Louis County police and the FBI that because of the stumble, it seemed to him that Brown had been wounded.

A private autopsy showed that all but one of his gunshot wounds came while Brown was facing Wilson. Shawn L. Parcells, who participated in the autopsy, said one of the wounds to the arm could have occurred when Brown was facing away from Wilson. “It’s inconclusive,” he said. St. Louis County and federal autopsy results have not been released.

Wilson, gun drawn, also stopped about 10 feet in front of Brown, the worker said.

Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up.

Wilson began backing up as he fired, the worker said.

After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/workers-who-were-witnesses-provide-new-perspective-on-michael-brown/article_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

The cop said nothing after saying that he will shoot in the car by any account except the hearsay of what Wilson has claimed. I am curious what police procedure is for that type of confrontation.

[spurraider21]

I will be interested to see how this plays out with the grand jury.
i agree. i have no clue how it will go down tbh... but it seems (on both sides) that a lot of people have already made up their minds as to exactly what went down and are just scrambling to find the evidence/articles that support their theory. before many details were out iirc boutons said "i hope wilson gets convicted" or something along those lines. at the same time i'm sure WC is cheering for wilson to be exonerated.

[boutons_deux]

St. Louis Police Academy Promotes ‘Highly Entertaining’ Course On Michael Brown Shooting (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/20/3570116/st-louis-police-academy-promotes-highly-entertaining-course-on-ferguson-and-police-shootings/)


The St. Louis County And Municipal Police Academy, which encompasses Ferguson, is offering a “Continuing Education” course in October entitled “OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTING — YOU CAN WIN WITH THE MEDIA (https://www.stlouisco.com/portals/8/docs/document%20library/police%20academy/2014/mediashoot.pdf).” The class is billed as “fast-paced class is jam-packed with the essential strategies and tactics, skills and techniques” and includes a “detailed case study of Ferguson.”

Learning about how to manipulate the media after a police officer shoots someone can be a blast, according to a flier produced by the academy promoting the course.”The training is also highly entertaining,” the flier says, “You will learn a lot, and you’ll have fun doing it! (https://www.stlouisco.com/portals/8/docs/document%20library/police%20academy/2014/mediashoot.pdf)”

The course is recommended for “All upper-echelon law enforcement professionals who ever expect to face media contact will benefit. This includes top-level decision-makers, command staff, supervisors, and subject-matter experts…”

Here is the full flier for the course, which is scheduled for October 24:

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/flier-638x782.jpg


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/20/3570116/st-louis-police-academy-promotes-highly-entertaining-course-on-ferguson-and-police-shootings/

Does anyone doubt the FPD and prosecutor are using the EXTRA 4 MONTHS to build an impregnable BLUE SHIELD of LIES around Wilson and to criminalize Brown?

100+ SWAT raids EVERY DAY in USA. Just more EVIDENCE that America is FUCKED and UNFUCKABLE, and becoming more fucked non-stop.

Orwellian language is pervasive: "officer-involved shooting", as if an officer were present or whatever, when his gun shot somebody, not saying he actually pulled the trigger, but just mysteriously "involved".

[ChumpDumper]

nevertheless that doesn't mean it wasn't unclearClear is in the eye of the beholder. I can certainly see, say, an idiot's having problems understanding.

[vy65]

You're still confused.

We're talking about statements made before the grand jury.

Or you're just stalling. Whatever. I don't think you would or could answer it either way.

Lol no we're not. We're talking about statements made in the incident report -- statements, and a report, you want released to the public.

[vy65]

Clear is in the eye of the beholder. I can certainly see, say, an idiot's having problems understanding.

Sick burn bro

[ChumpDumper]

Lol no we're not. We're talking about statements made in the incident report -- statements, and a report, you want released to the public.Statments made before the grand jury convened.

Yes I do want them released.

Why not?

What do they have to hide?

You still haven't provided any precedent or rule saying they are always included in gag orders.

[Fabbs]

Clear is in the eye of the beholder. I can certainly see, say, an idiot's having problems understanding.

Day Shift RumpHumper
I cant understand for him.

Nicely done Humpy.

[ChumpDumper]

Nicely done Humpy.So you're just obsessed with me in this thread.

OK.

Nicely done.

[Fabbs]

The Deflection Queen owning up, doing werk. :lol

So you're just obsessed with me in this thread.

OK.

Nicely done.

[ChumpDumper]

The Deflection Queen owning up, doing werk. :lolYou haven't said one word about the OP.

Only me.

Since you are only talking about me, my saying you are only talking about me is by definition not deflecting.

Thanks for owning up to the fact that you are only posting about me and nothing else.

Nicely done, obsession queen.

[vy65]

Statments made before the grand jury convened.

Yes I do want them released.

Why not?

What do they have to hide?

You still haven't provided any precedent or rule saying they are always included in gag orders.

Why do you need those statements released now. Why's it important to have them today vs when the grand jury concludes? Is it hard to believe that the prosecutors office, or the police dept didn't release them so that they wouldn't have any affect on the jury? Why are you so frothy about hearing from Wilson this very minute?

[ChumpDumper]

Why do you need those statements released now. Why's it important to have them today vs when the grand jury concludes? Is it hard to believe that the prosecutors office, or the police dept didn't release them so that they wouldn't have any affect on the jury? Why are you so frothy about hearing from Wilson this very minute?Why not?

Why would it have an effect on the jury it wouldn't otherwise? Your claim is the report is going to go to the jury anyway. So now they need to be protected from the report they are going to see?

You're talking in circles.

And you still haven't provided any precedent or rule saying they are always included in gag orders over things like interviews.

[TheSanityAnnex]

The only thing I bring up is the contractors testimony and the distances involved. Instead spammer claims that his spam is what I am arguing. It's bad enough that he poorly understands the arguments but instead he points to shit I am not even talking about. The police said that the distance from the car to the shooting was 35 feet. It's that first youtube. The distance from where brown was killed to where the car door was is at least 140 feet.If you want to believe that Mike Brown sprinted over 40 yards and then charged back at the cop to die 35 yards away then go right ahead.Seems like the cop chased him down until he got him in range and then brained him. As the contractor said, the cop said nothing and then just shot him when he got up in range. You can see the contractor mime the motion that Brown was making right before he was shot.Another thing is why did the cop approach him like that even to apprehend him when he clearly deemed any resistance required lethal force to protect himself. His cop friends were there in a minute and Brown was running down the middle of the street. He is in his car. Instead he gets out of his car and chases him 100 feet where he is 'forced' to use his weapon again this time with a killing blow. I will be interested to see how this plays out with the grand jury.You sourced a twitter activist with an agenda, that's why I've been shitting on you. Each of your new narratives has contradicted the previous, that's why I've been shitting on you.

[TheSanityAnnex]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/workers-who-were-witnesses-provide-new-perspective-on-michael-brown/article_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

The cop said nothing after saying that he will shoot in the car by any account except the hearsay of what Wilson has claimed. I am curious what police procedure is for that type of confrontation.

"A private autopsy showed that all but one of his gunshot wounds came while Brown was facing Wilson. Shawn L. Parcells, who participated in the autopsy, said one of the wounds to the arm could have occurred when Brown was facing away from Wilson. “It’s inconclusive,” he said. St. Louis County and federal autopsy results have not been released."


:lol this the shit I'm talking about. Do you know nothing of Shawnee Parcells Fuzzy? You've lost all credibility.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There is only one autopsy available. Ad hominem generalizations don't change that.

[vy65]

Why not?

Why would it have an effect on the jury it wouldn't otherwise? Your claim is the report is going to go to the jury anyway. So now they need to be protected from the report they are going to see?

You're talking in circles.

And you still haven't provided any precedent or rule saying they are always included in gag orders over things like interviews.

No, they, the jury, need to be protected from outside influences, like the media, reporting/interpreting those statements in the report. Thats why there's a gag order in the first place.

[ChumpDumper]

No, they, the jury, need to be protected from outside influences, like the media, reporting/interpreting those statements in the report. Thats why there's a gag order in the first place.So they can be completely open to influence from every other media report, interview and interpretation out there.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[ChumpDumper]

And you still haven't provided any precedent or rule saying they are always included in gag orders over things like interviews.

[TheSanityAnnex]

There is only one autopsy available. Ad hominem generalizations don't change that.
Parcells is more of a hack than King. This is getting embarrassing for you.

[ChumpDumper]

lol Fabbs is going to post about only me again.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol Fabbs is going to post about only me again.

You get Fabbs; I get TSA. I am done arguing with stupid. Take care mang.

[TheSanityAnnex]

You get Fabbs; I get TSA. I am done arguing with stupid. Take care mang.

Please explain why anyone should take your shit sources seriously? You are arguing on behalf of an unlicensed quack and a twitter activist with an obvious agenda. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.

[Fabbs]

Here is our motto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s

[ChumpDumper]

lol Fabbs is going to post about only me again.Called it.

When is the last time you took a break from your jihad and tried to discuss an OP, Flabby?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Called it.

When is the last time you took a break from your jihad and tried to discuss an OP, Flabby?
You have nary room Chump. I called you on the same thing in this same thread.

[ChumpDumper]

You have nary room Chump. I called you on the same thing in this same thread.Sorry, you were wrong to do so. I've been posting about the topic all along.

You've been deflecting and avoiding all along.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Sorry, you were wrong to do so. I've been posting about the topic all along.

You've been deflecting and avoiding all along.
Bullshit. You realize the OP is about the construction workers account?

[ChumpDumper]

Bullshit. You realize the OP is about the construction workers account?Yeah, you've done your level best to avoid my discussion about that.

So general Michael Brown case issue it is -- but you guys are deflecting the shit out of all those too.

Like you are now.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Yeah, you've done your level best to avoid my discussion about that.

So general Michael Brown case issue it is -- but you guys are deflecting the shit out of all those too.

Like you are now.
Without actually counting I'm going to guess 5% of your posts in this thread are about the construction workers.

[ChumpDumper]

Without actually counting I'm going to guess 5% of your posts in this thread are about the construction workers.No doubt, since you immediately ducked every question I had for you concerning those and started off on wild tangents.

Not my fault you had to deflect.

[TheSanityAnnex]

No doubt, since you immediately ducked every question I had for you concerning those and started off on wild tangents.

Not my fault you had to deflect.Now you are just making stuff up. I just went back to the beginning of the thread, I answered all of your questions regarding the contractors.

[CosmicCowboy]

oops

aJzVT9eoA7g

[cantthinkofanything]

oops

aJzVT9eoA7g

probably due to some smoldering pieces of crack left as an offering

[CosmicCowboy]

probably a stolen cigar.

[cantthinkofanything]

probably a stolen cigar.

that was better. well done.

[Fabbs]

Now you are just making stuff up.
:rollin sHe's been making stuff up for 10 posting years.
Was this Day Shift Rumpy or Night Shift Rumpy?

[ChumpDumper]

:rollin sHe's been making stuff up for 10 posting years.
Was this Day Shift Rumpy or Night Shift Rumpy?lol still only posting about me.

You haven't posted about the OP once.

[ChumpDumper]

Now you are just making stuff up. I just went back to the beginning of the thread, I answered all of your questions regarding the contractors.You never said why you characterized their stories as "suspicious."

Why did you characterize their stories as "suspicious"?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You never said why you characterized their stories as "suspicious."

Why did you characterize their stories as "suspicious"?

or how they changed stories as he claimed or why the only autopsy available should be ignored in full or why 'turned around' should be interpreted as 'charged.' Prepare for more spam because he sure as hell cannot come up with a decent argument on his own.

[TheSanityAnnex]

You never said why you characterized their stories as "suspicious."

Why did you characterize their stories as "suspicious"?

Answered already on page 1.

[TheSanityAnnex]

or how they changed stories as he claimedThe 4 witnesses you quoted all changed their stories, that is not up for debate.


or why the only autopsy available should be ignored in fullShawne Parcells was unlicensed and unqualified to do an autopsy, that is not up for debate.


or why 'turned around' should be interpreted as 'charged.'The audio clearly captures the man saying Brown came at Wilson, how he came at him is up for debate since we aren't privy to what this man has now since told investigators after being questioned.



Prepare for more spam because he sure as hell cannot come up with a decent argument on his own.This is funny coming from the guy who spammed that twitter hacks story on four consecutive pages.

[TheSanityAnnex]

:rollin sHe's been making stuff up for 10 posting years.
Was this Day Shift Rumpy or Night Shift Rumpy?

Night Shift pumped up on Mountain Dew. The funny thing is he'll never own up to it or admit it. He's been more off topic on the OP than anyone in this thread.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have not to this point detailed what about their story has changed. You have not demonstrated that the change that may or may nor have occurred was deceitful or that it in anyway invalidates their story as a whole. You have no rebuttal to the construction guys beyond an emotional response.

The Brown family autopsy was done by a pathologist employed by Parcells and not Parcells himself. Please provide evidence that the autopsy done by Parcells company was done without a licensed pathologist. Regurgitating someone else's arguments poorly does not apply to anything.

You have one account of a guy saying that he came back. You see nothing of the aggressive charge you have claimed. At this point we see you have given up on it. Prima facia its ignorant because an overweight guy sprinting 50 yards is what it is. All of the accounts indicate that he turned around, even the ones you claim are lies.

i didn't spam King. I spammed his argument and this is a nuance you don't seem to grasp with your dull mind. Anyone can look at the photos of the homicide scene and determine where the truck and corpse were. Anyone can go to google maps and determine it to be at least 140 feet. Anyone can watch the FPD chief state the say after the shooting that the distance was 35 feet. It is what it is independent of who King is. I don't need his authority to make the argument dipshit.

[ChumpDumper]

Answered already on page 1.Nope.

[ChumpDumper]

Night Shift pumped up on Mountain Dew.Don't drink it.
The funny thing is he'll never own up to it or admit it. He's been more off topic on the OP than anyone in this thread.Nope. It's Fabbs, then you.

[Fabbs]

Night Shift pumped up on Mountain Dew. The funny thing is he'll never own up to it or admit it. He's been more off topic on the OP than anyone in this thread.
He has zero cred. :lol
Not sure why site owner / moderator / Enabler cannot simply give RumpHumper, Dead Parrot, Kool Aids Virus etc a forum of their own. Because no one would post there except RumpHumpers other lame profiles? :lol
Humpy et al could then post to him/herself unlimited.

[ChumpDumper]

He has zero cred. :lol
Not sure why site owner / moderator / Enabler cannot simply give RumpHumper, Dead Parrot, Kool Aids Virus etc a forum of their own. Because no one would post there except RumpHumpers other lame profiles? :lol
Humpy et al could then post to him/herself unlimited.lol still posting only about me.

U mad.

[spurraider21]

well chump has successfully deflected the thread, we're no longer on topic

[boutons_deux]

right-wingers here true to form, excuse,justify the murder of unarmed black man, and ridicule the burning of the black community's memorial of the murdered black man.

[ChumpDumper]

well chump has successfully deflected the thread, we're no longer on topicI kept asking about the OP and everyone else made it about me.

Like you did in the other thread.

It happens.

TSA has still yet to explain why he characterized the OP witness accounts as "suspicious" when it was clearly explained that the number of shots they claimed was ambiguous.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have not to this point detailed what about their story has changed. You have not demonstrated that the change that may or may nor have occurred was deceitful or that it in anyway invalidates their story as a whole. You have no rebuttal to the construction guys beyond an emotional response.

The Brown family autopsy was done by a pathologist employed by Parcells and not Parcells himself. Please provide evidence that the autopsy done by Parcells company was done without a licensed pathologist. Regurgitating someone else's arguments poorly does not apply to anything.

You have one account of a guy saying that he came back. You see nothing of the aggressive charge you have claimed. At this point we see you have given up on it. Prima facia its ignorant because an overweight guy sprinting 50 yards is what it is. All of the accounts indicate that he turned around, even the ones you claim are lies.

i didn't spam King. I spammed his argument and this is a nuance you don't seem to grasp with your dull mind. Anyone can look at the photos of the homicide scene and determine where the truck and corpse were. Anyone can go to google maps and determine it to be at least 140 feet. Anyone can watch the FPD chief state the say after the shooting that the distance was 35 feet. It is what it is independent of who King is. I don't need his authority to make the argument dipshit.

[Fabbs]

.
Please provide evidence that the autopsy done by Parcells company was done with a licensed pathologist.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Please provide evidence that the autopsy done by Parcells company was done with a licensed pathologist.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/pathologist-assistant-in-michael-brown-case-responds-to-controversy/28234292

Dr. Baden performed the autopsy. I myself make no claims one way or the other regarding his findings but Baden's credentials are well documented.

[Fabbs]

http://www.kmbc.com/news/pathologist-assistant-in-michael-brown-case-responds-to-controversy/28234292

Dr. Baden performed the autopsy. I myself make no claims one way or the other regarding his findings but Baden's credentials are well documented.
Ok thank you. I think Badens was the 2nd one done? With yet a 3rd Federal one to be done?
At any rate, Badens findings in part:

Dr. Michael Baden, who conducted the autopsy at the request of Brown's family, talked to Bill Hemmer by phone this morning. His findings do not line up with witnesses who have claimed that Wilson shot Brown from behind.

"This autopsy shows that there wasn't any gunshot wounds in his back. Some people thought they saw that. An autopsy helps organize which witness testimony is more reliable," he said.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ok thank you. I think Badens was the 2nd one done? With yet a 3rd Federal one to be done?
At any rate, Badens findings in part:

Dr. Michael Baden, who conducted the autopsy at the request of Brown's family, talked to Bill Hemmer by phone this morning. His findings do not line up with witnesses who have claimed that Wilson shot Brown from behind.

"This autopsy shows that there wasn't any gunshot wounds in his back. Some people thought they saw that. An autopsy helps organize which witness testimony is more reliable," he said.

There is some uncertainty as to which of the 10 or so shots officer stadanko fired actually hit Brown. There is no question that the cop was shooting at Brown as he was running away.

[tlongII]

There is some uncertainty as to which of the 10 or so shots officer stadanko fired actually hit Brown. There is no question that the cop was shooting at Brown as he was running away.

Horseshit! :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Horseshit! :lol

Find me a testimony that does not include a shot or shots being fired causing Brown to turn around. Even the witnesses that say that he charged or may have charged say that.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Find me a testimony that does not include a shot or shots being fired causing Brown to turn around. Even the witnesses that say that he charged or may have charged say that.
Can you please provide the testimonies that you are referencing?

[Fabbs]

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/48/748e174d-d44c-5f5a-9007-2b9d42255c78/53ea13212655c.preview-620.jpg
There is no question that the cop was shooting at Brown as he was running away.
Yes i think you already mentioned that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Can you please provide the testimonies that you are referencing?

For you dumb and lazy ass? Nah.

Take off the front panel of your circuit breaker and reach behind the breakers and grab the rails.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes i think you already mentioned that.

I'm most interested in testimony from some who was not a close friend of Mike Brown. Trying to pin the most obviously biased interview on me is fun I guess.

That interview does say he shot at the fleeing Brown as does the one of the two girls always with the attorney and the guy that lived in the apartment across the street. He was the one that mimed Brown turning around with his hands up and then folding in on himself as he was being shot to death. There is the guy that stupid keeps citing about Brown coming back at Wilson after the being shot at.

The one I find most credible are the contractors that I keep citing as they are not from the neighborhood and are objective observers who were working in the area at the time of the shooting.

[TheSanityAnnex]

For you dumb and lazy ass? Nah.

Take off the front panel of your circuit breaker and reach behind the breakers and grab the rails.
You clearly don't trust your testimonies either.

Nice nerd burn bth.
:lol my circuits
:lol my breakers


post your testimonies coward

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You clearly don't trust your testimonies either.

Nice nerd burn bth.
:lol my circuits
:lol my breakers


post your testimonies coward

reread the thread. I posted the contractors St Louis Dispatch article. then you spammed a bunch of shit and circle jerked it with chump and fabbs for a few days. not my problem. This is exactly what I am talking about in terms of you being stupid and lazy though. Underscores it quite clearly.

obviously fear is the motivation behind my actions. . .

Now go see if you can disembowel yourself with an ar-15.

[TheSanityAnnex]

reread the thread. I posted the contractors St Louis Dispatch article. then you spammed a bunch of shit and circle jerked it with chump and fabbs for a few days. not my problem. This is exactly what I am talking about in terms of you being stupid and lazy though. Underscores it quite clearly.

obviously fear is the motivation behind my actions. . .

Now go see if you can disembowel yourself with an ar-15.
Didn't work, gun jammed.

Lol @ only considering white people testimony credible.

[TheSanityAnnex]

CNN Breaking News ?@cnnbrk 3m3 minutes ago
Investigation into Michael Brown's shooting death "basically completed," prosecutor says.



I'm hearing through the law enforcement grapevine no indictment

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Dipshit finally caught up to last week.

If there is no indictment the St Louis prosecutor speaking to the end of the investigation stated that if there was no indictment the evidence presented would be made public.


Kindy: There are concerns about civil unrest if the jury does not indict Officer Wilson. Are you doing anything different because of those concerns?

McCulloch: “Everything that the grand jury hears — all the testimony and all the physical evidence — will be released to the public if there is no indictment. People will be able to see everything regardless of what happens.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/qa-st-louis-county-prosecutor-bob-mcculloch-on-the-grand-jury-considering-the-ferguson-shooting/

The link is the STL prosecutor speaking to the end of the investigation.

[TheSanityAnnex]

:lmao

You are such a fucking tool Fuzzy. I already posted this information on page 12 of this very thread, thanks for trying to present it as if it was some new information you stupid fuck. My post from page 12.



Fresh new page. Lets get back on topic and stop trying to claim either internet sleuths accounts as facts because to do so is just silly. So Wilson testified in front of the grand jury for four hours with no lawyer present, looks like he has nothing to hide.

http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/darren-wilson-testifies-in-front-of-grand-jury/article_74022ab8-756f-5e1d-81b3-3c577f1e9208.html?mobile_touch=true

CLAYTON • Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson testified here for almost four hours Tuesday in front of the St. Louis County grand jury investigating his shooting Aug. 9 of Michael Brown, a source with knowledge of the investigation said Wednesday.

Wilson was not obligated to appear, and also has spoken with St. Louis County investigators twice and federal investigators once, the source said. The source said Wilson was “cooperative.”
A spokesman for Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch’s office, Ed Magee, refused to comment Wednesday on who had testified.


The shooting of Brown, 18, who was black and unarmed, by Wilson, who is white, gave rise to racially charged protests and looting. Some activists have threatened more of the same if the grand jury does not indict Wilson.

Police have said that Brown struggled with Wilson before being shot. Brown’s family and some witnesses have said Brown was surrendering when he died. Others who have spoken publicly said it was not clear what Brown was doing when he turned toward Wilson after fleeing from their initial encounter.

McCulloch has pledged to present every witness and every shred of evidence to let the grand jurors independently decide whether to indict Wilson, without the prosecutor making a recommendation. Magee has said that prosecutors will help witnesses navigate legal issues.

Veteran defense attorney John Rogers, who is not involved in this case, said Wednesday, “It’s unusual but not unheard of for a prosecutor to extend an invitation” for the target of an investigation to testify to a grand jury. He said he had rarely allowed it.

Witnesses cannot take their attorneys inside the grand jury chamber, although the witnesses may interrupt the proceedings to go outside for a consultation.

“You don’t always want to preview what your defense would be at such an early stage,” Rogers explained. He added, “I would only consider allowing my client to testify at a grand jury proceeding if I was convinced that the prosecutor presenting the evidence to the (grand jury) was convinced that his testimony would help them reach the decision not to indict.”
Attorney Chet Pleban, who is not part of this case but has represented a number of accused police officers, said that sworn grand jury testimony could be used in any state or federal prosecution, potentially exposing the witness to damaging questions.

“The problem in this case is, one way or the other, his story had to be told in order for this grand jury to know what was in his mind,” Pleban said. “And I don’t know any way to accomplish that other than to have him testify.”


Wilson must convince grand jurors that he acted in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, Pleban said, “And he’s pretty much the only one that can do that.”

Evidence is being presented to a grand jury that was empaneled before the shooting, with a term recently extended at the prosecutor’s request to Jan. 7. At one point, McCulloch had predicted a decision in October.
The pace remains uncertain, but Tiffany Mitchell, a witness to the shooting who has spoken publicly about what she saw, has not yet been subpoenaed, her attorney, Peter Cohen, said Wednesday.
McCulloch took the rare step of having audio recordings and a transcript made of the secret proceedings, with a promise to release them publicly if there is no indictment. Magee acknowledged that opening the material would require an order from a judge, who could say no.

Jim Cohen, an associate professor of law at Fordham University, told the Post-Dispatch last month that grand jury material had rarely been made public anywhere, even to scholars researching historical cases. He also worried that fear of being publicly identified might inhibit witnesses.

Magee said McCulloch’s office had talked about the potential effect on witnesses “a little bit” and “it’s still being discussed.” He said prosecutors could decide to withhold witness names, especially those who are not police officers and may have particular safety issues.

He said the names of the grand jurors would not be made public, and it was unclear whether documents would be released that necessarily would carry the foreperson’s signature.

Magee said the timing of the announcement of the grand jury’s decision, once it’s made, was “still being discussed.”
McCulloch urged on Aug. 13 that “anyone and everyone” with relevant information come forward. He said then: “Absolutely everything will be presented to the grand jury, every scrap of paper that we have, every photograph that was taken, every bit of physical evidence that has been gathered, every video clip, anything that we can get.”
“Every witness who has anything at all to say will be presented to the grand jury,” he promised.

McCulloch has delegated management of the grand jury to two assistants: Kathi Alizadeh and Sheila Whirley. Alizadeh, who is white, is a homicide prosecutor with 27 years of experience. Whirley, who is black, has the grand jury assignment, with 18 years of experience.




You stupid ass smug little bitch, looks like you finally caught up to last week.

[pgardn]

http://www.newsweek.com/ferguson-prosecutor-robert-p-mccullochs-long-history-siding-police-267357

This reeks. He is not the guy to handle the Grand Jury. Too many of the articles like the above.

[ChumpDumper]

CNN Breaking News ?@cnnbrk 3m3 minutes ago
Investigation into Michael Brown's shooting death "basically completed," prosecutor says.



I'm hearing through the law enforcement grapevine no indictmentAR15 forum?

[TheSanityAnnex]

AR15 forum?
Policeone.com

[TheSanityAnnex]

Breaking new witness testimony

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri



“I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close,” said Johnson, who said he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer when the first of several shots was fired at the teen. Johnson says he feared for his life as he watched the officer squeezing off shot after shot.

About 20 minutes before the shooting, Johnson said he saw Brown walking down the street and decided to catch up with him. The two walked and talked. That’s when Johnson says they saw the police car rolling up to them.
The officer demanded that the two “get the f—k on the sidewalk,” Johnson says. “His exact words were get the f—k on the sidewalk.”
After telling the officer that they were almost at their destination, Johnson’s house, the two continued walking. But as they did, Johnson says the officer slammed his brakes and threw his truck in reverse, nearly hitting them.
Now, in line with the officer’s driver’s side door, they could see the officer’s face. They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed.
Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.


“I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.”
“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”
At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.
“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”
A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.
“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”
Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.
“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together. There were three cars lined up along the side of the street. Johnson says he ducked behind the first car, whose two passengers were screaming. Crouching down a bit, he watched Brown run past.


“Keep running, bro!,” he said Brown yelled. Then Brown yelled it a second time. Those would be the last words Johnson’s friend, “Big Mike,” would ever say to him.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

By that point, Johnson says the officer and Brown were face-to-face. The officer then fired several more shots. Johnson described watching Brown go from standing with his hands up to crumbling to the ground and curling into a fetal position.


Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney, told msnbc that the police have yet to interview Johnson. Bosley said that he offered the police an opportunity to speak with Johnson, but they declined.
“They didn’t even want to talk to him,” said Bosley, a former mayor of St. Louis. “They don’t want the facts. :lol What they want is to justify what happened … what they are trying to do now is justify what happened instead of trying to point out the wrong. Something is wrong here and that’s what it is.”

[pgardn]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html?hpid=z3

whoa...

[Infinite_limit]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html?hpid=z3

whoa...
Not trolling. Why are Blacks so deceitful?

[pgardn]

Not trolling. Why are Blacks so deceitful?

So you think blacks lie to you more than whites?

In my experience, I don't really notice a difference.

[Infinite_limit]

So you think blacks lie to you more than whites?

In my experience, I don't really notice a difference.
Um ya I kinda do. You have Nigerian scammers and the Blacks in the USA portray themselves to be wealthier and have more going for them than they actually do. Must not look much farther than the penis myth.

I am far more caution to believe something coming out of a Blacks mouth than any other race. Sometimes it feels like I'm listening to a Rap.

Sure Mexicans have a tendency to blindly rally against authority but even with them you have Browns living in Arizona that hold their own to a standard. I just don't see that with Blacks.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Dipshit finally caught up to last week.

If there is no indictment the St Louis prosecutor speaking to the end of the investigation stated that if there was no indictment the evidence presented would be made public.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/25/qa-st-louis-county-prosecutor-bob-mcculloch-on-the-grand-jury-considering-the-ferguson-shooting/

The link is the STL prosecutor speaking to the end of the investigation.


Thanks for the bump. Forgot about Fuzzy's shotgun to the foot moment.

[TheSanityAnnex]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html?hpid=z3

whoa...
Why whoa? This was obvious from the beginning

[TheSanityAnnex]

FuzzyLumpkins your boy Shaun King is on a good one. Why haven't you linked his Ferguson/COINTELPRO article yet?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You still haven't argued police statements and the distance the body was found from the door of the truck.

[admiralsnackbar]

Um ya I kinda do. You have Nigerian scammers and the Blacks in the USA portray themselves to be wealthier and have more going for them than they actually do. Must not look much farther than the penis myth.

I am far more caution to believe something coming out of a Blacks mouth than any other race. Sometimes it feels like I'm listening to a Rap.

Sure Mexicans have a tendency to blindly rally against authority but even with them you have Browns living in Arizona that hold their own to a standard. I just don't see that with Blacks.

Most "Nigerian" scams are based in white-bread Russia, as are most identity-theft rings and mail-order-bride rackets. Does that lift them to a higher plane of regard for you?

[TheSanityAnnex]

You still haven't argued police statements and the distance the body was found from the door of the truck.

I don't need to argue the distance the body was found as I agree it was 100 feet away.

Your take on the most recent developments?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Holder is now pissed that the county autopsy was leaked, yet not a peep from him when the autopsy done by Brown's family was leaked. It is disgusting how the justice department stuck their nose in this and tried to sway the narrative. Very nice of them to send officials to Brown's funeral.

http://news.yahoo.com/justice-dept-exasperated-local-probe-missouri-teen-shooting-151027957.html

Reuters) - U.S. Justice Department officials on Thursday criticized local authorities' investigation of the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager in Ferguson, Missouri, saying the case had been handled in a "selective" and "inappropriate" manner.



The department's criticism comes after the official St. Louis County autopsy of Michael Brown, 18, who was shot by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson on Aug. 9, was leaked to media on Wednesday.

The autopsy report, obtained by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and published on its website, suggested Brown sustained a gunshot wound to the hand from close range and came as a grand jury considered whether Wilson should face charges.
"The department considers the selective release of information in this investigation to be irresponsible and highly troubling," Justice Department spokeswoman Dena Iverson said.
"Since the release of the convenience store footage there seems to be an inappropriate effort to influence public opinion about this case," Iverson added, referring to the Ferguson police department's release of video shortly after the shooting that showed a robbery at a nearby convenience store, although it did not specifically link Brown at the time to the footage.
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder expressed frustration with local officials investigating the incident as the Justice Department also conducts a federal investigation, according to a department official.
In a meeting with Justice Department lawyers on Wednesday, Holder said he was "exasperated" by the "selective flow of information coming out of Missouri" and called the leaks "inappropriate and troubling," the official said.

[ElNono]

I have no problem with the evidence, but what this prosecutor is doing is just not right. As indicated on the WAPO article, normally the prosecutor presents a case to the grand jury, with enough evidence to get an indictment, then you get the actual trial to review all the evidence and make your case. This guys instead is throwing everything at the grand jury, making them co-investigators, and AFAIK, he has not even presented a case. Effectively, he's making this a close-door trial. Without looking it up, I'm willing to bet this guy has not done the same in almost every other case he's handled (and doesn't involve a cop).

Like I said many moons ago, don't be surprised if the officer is not even indicted, and the family don't get their day in court...

[Fabbs]

normally the prosecutor presents a case to the grand jury, with enough evidence to get an indictment, then you get the actual trial to review all the evidence and make your case.

Like I said many moons ago, don't be surprised if the officer is not even indicted, and the family don't get their day in court...
Except there is no trial if one is not indicted by grand. I agree with you he is effectively making the grand jury the investigators. But i'm not so sure in the racially heated case that is a bad thing.

The family will get their day in civil court.

[boutons_deux]

who is defending Brown in grand jury sessions?

[TheSanityAnnex]

who is defending Brown in grand jury sessions?

Since you refuse to answer in the other thread I'll ask again.

Let me make this really easy for you so you can stop dodging the issue.

When confronted by Wilson was Michael Brown's behavior acceptable, yes or no?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Since you refuse to answer in the other thread I'll ask again.

Let me make this really easy for you so you can stop dodging the issue.

When confronted by Wilson was Michael Brown's behavior acceptable, yes or no?

that has no bearing on whether or nor what Wilson did was a criminal act. I notice you don't talk about the facts. You talk about Shaun King and anyone you consider your political opponent in this matter.

I am just waiting to see what the GJ does. This thread doesn't help anyone figure out what they might decide.

[TheSanityAnnex]

that has no bearing on whether or nor what Wilson did was a criminal act. I notice you don't talk about the facts. You talk about Shaun King and anyone you consider your political opponent in this matter.

I am just waiting to see what the GJ does. This thread doesn't help anyone figure out what they might decide.
If it has no bearing why is it so hard to get an answer?

What you fail to realize is I am given information well before the media has it, and it has all been correct. Remember two months ago when I said Brown's DNA was on the gun? I also said he'd be no billed a month ago, which is about to happen.

[vy65]

I have no problem with the evidence, but what this prosecutor is doing is just not right. As indicated on the WAPO article, normally the prosecutor presents a case to the grand jury, with enough evidence to get an indictment, then you get the actual trial to review all the evidence and make your case. This guys instead is throwing everything at the grand jury, making them co-investigators, and AFAIK, he has not even presented a case. Effectively, he's making this a close-door trial. Without looking it up, I'm willing to bet this guy has not done the same in almost every other case he's handled (and doesn't involve a cop).

Like I said many moons ago, don't be surprised if the officer is not even indicted, and the family don't get their day in court...

I'll defer to the criminal law specialists, but if I understand you right, I don't think your view of the grand jury and its function is correct.


In approaching the issue presented we bear in mind two historical functions of a grand jury under the common law of England adopted by what is now § 1.010. One was to accuse and thereby bring to trial those believed to have violated the law. The other, equally important but often overlooked, was to protect the citizen against unfounded accusation of crime. Conway v. Quinn, 168 S.W.2d 445, 446[1] (Mo.App.1942). In State ex rel. Lashly v. Wurdeman, supra, 187 S.W. at 259, this court, speaking of grand juries, said: "That body is a component part of the court, existed at common law, and is recognized in the Constitution, where some of its duties are specified. Its creation and duties are provided for by statutes. The grand jury is a great inquisitorial body, originally designed to vindicate the law and to protect the body of the people from the encroachments of arbitrary power. It is a necessary adjunct of all courts charged with the enforcement of the criminal law." See also State ex rel. Hall v. Burney, 229 Mo.App. 759, 84 S.W.2d 659, 664[5] (1935).

That's from the Missouri Supreme Court. I think throwing everything at the grand jury for it to perform its inquisitive function is totally appropriate. And ostensibly the grand jury will be instructed on a threshold lower than the reasonable doubt that would be required in an actual trial.

[vy65]

that has no bearing on whether or nor what Wilson did was a criminal act.

If the evidence shows Brown's reaction was to assault Wilson, that has no bearing on whether what Wilson did was criminal? Are you serious?

[ElNono]

I'll defer to the criminal law specialists, but if I understand you right, I don't think your view of the grand jury and its function is correct.

That's from the Missouri Supreme Court. I think throwing everything at the grand jury for it to perform its inquisitive function is totally appropriate. And ostensibly the grand jury will be instructed on a threshold lower than the reasonable doubt that would be required in an actual trial.

I don't claim it's illegal, I'm merely stating that as a general rule, indictments are fairly quick, especially when you have a dead body, the murder weapon and there's no doubt who the alleged murderer is. My understanding is that in 99% of the cases the prosecutor won't even get to a grand jury if he feels he doesn't have a case (and, as I said, I'm willing to bet that's exactly what happens with this prosecutor almost all of his other cases). But when he does get there, he already did his homework, has a case, presents it, with just enough evidence to get the indictment, then you try the alleged murderer on the actual trial. This is how courts operate all day, every day in America. In this case, you get the feeling the guy wants to wash his hands of this whole thing, and point to the grand jury if there's no indictment. I noticed that early when they first said the prosecutor was going to just throw all the evidence at them.

As to Fabbs point, sure, they probably will cash in one way or another in civil court, but they should still be able to present their criminal case in front of a jury of their peers, then win or lose the trial.

[vy65]

I don't claim it's illegal, I'm merely stating that as a general rule, indictments are fairly quick, especially when you have a dead body, the murder weapon and there's no doubt who the alleged murderer is. My understanding is that in 99% of the cases the prosecutor won't even get to a grand jury if he feels he doesn't have a case (and, as I said, I'm willing to bet that's exactly what happens with this prosecutor almost all of his other cases). But when he does get there, he already did his homework, has a case, presents it, with just enough evidence to get the indictment, then you try the alleged murderer on the actual trial. This is how courts operate all day, every day in America. In this case, you get the feeling the guy wants to wash his hands of this whole thing, and point to the grand jury if there's no indictment. I noticed that early when they first said the prosecutor was going to just throw all the evidence at them.

I think that, because of the media scrutiny, the DA couldn't have exercised his discretion to not at least have the grand jury hear evidence. But, if the evidence really didn't show a crime was committed and if he had to convene a grand jury, then the next best thing would be to use it as an opportunity to protect Wilson.

I totally agree with you that the prosecutor "wants to wash his hands" and protect himself by pointing at the grand jury. I guess I don't see a problem with that because it's legitimate and proper under Missouri law.


As to Fabbs point, sure, they probably will cash in one way or another in civil court, but they should still be able to present their criminal case in front of a jury of their peers, then win or lose the trial.

There'll be varying degrees of immunity that'll definitely complicate any civil proceeding.

[boutons_deux]

Since you refuse to answer in the other thread I'll ask again.

Let me make this really easy for you so you can stop dodging the issue.

When confronted by Wilson was Michael Brown's behavior acceptable, yes or no?

I wasn't an eyewitness, so I can't say.

If Wilson drove next to Brown, window open, gun drawn, and grabbed Brown through the window for "resisting a direct police order to GTF off the street", I'd say Brown knew that he, being black, was at immediate risk of getting shot and tried grab the gun. all hypothetical, of course. the "facts" presented by the "authorities" are fully dubious, trying to protect their trolling-for-trouble, racist, sadistic cop and to criminalize Brown as "walking while black".

who is defending Brown in grand jury sessions?

[ElNono]

I think that, because of the media scrutiny, the DA couldn't have exercised his discretion to not at least have the grand jury hear evidence. But, if the evidence really didn't show a crime was committed and if he had to convene a grand jury, then the next best thing would be to use it as an opportunity to protect Wilson.

I totally agree with you that the prosecutor "wants to wash his hands" and protect himself by pointing at the grand jury. I guess I don't see a problem with that because it's legitimate and proper under Missouri law.

I understand what you're saying, but I think we both agree the prosecutor's job isn't to protect anybody. This is the dude that, if the grand jury says 'prosecute', has to present the case in court. It's ridiculous he seemingly doesn't have a case, and won't have one unless the grand jury forces him to.


There'll be varying degrees of immunity that'll definitely complicate any civil proceeding.

Not to mention finding an 'impartial' jury. I just get the feeling a settlement with the family in that area will be easier to reach.

[Fabbs]

If it has no bearing why is it so hard to get an answer?

What you fail to realize is I am given information well before the media has it, and it has all been correct. Remember two months ago when I said Brown's DNA was on the gun? I also said he'd be no billed a month ago, which is about to happen.
Not saying your info is obtained by leaks, nor am i even asking about your sources.
That having been said, how do all these "leaks" come out?
Is there no accountability after leaks do come out?

Is some female court clerk getting her bell rung by 5 paid for studs along with a Swiss bank account deposit?

[vy65]

I understand what you're saying, but I think we both agree the prosecutor's job isn't to protect anybody. This is the dude that, if the grand jury says 'prosecute', has to present the case in court. It's ridiculous he seemingly doesn't have a case, and won't have one unless the grand jury forces him to.

Agreed. My point is -- reading the tea leaves -- it sounds like the prosecutor was left with a dog of a case that he normally wouldn't have even tried to bring, but was forced to by the public. So he's doing the next best thing.

[ElNono]

Agreed. My point is -- reading the tea leaves -- it sounds like the prosecutor was left with a dog of a case that he normally wouldn't have even tried to bring, but was forced to by the public. So he's doing the next best thing.

Not sure if possible, but couldn't he withdraw from the case and let a different prosecutor that might be actually interested in bringing up a case handle it?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If the evidence shows Brown's reaction was to assault Wilson, that has no bearing on whether what Wilson did was criminal? Are you serious?

That is not the question that he asked. If he had asked whether or not Wilson was assaulted then sure that would be a valid response. You are really bad at drawing conclusions. I said that 'appropriate' is not the right standard to use when the response was deadly force.

You suck at argumentation once again.

It seems that Wilson shot Brown in the hand in the car because that was the only time there was close range between the two. Brown hit Wilson as well but in what order that was in who knows but he then ran away about 140 feet where Wilson got out of the car guns blazing in pursuit. As soon as Brown turned around he started shooting and backing away. I have heard zero testimony from anyone anywhere that Wilson ordered him to freeze get down or anything.

The burden of proof for an indictment is much lower than for a conviction. I am curious to see what comes out. I have no idea as I don't have near enough evidence to go by to say anything the wholes in the evidence are deliberate and case crippling.

[pgardn]

Why whoa? This was obvious from the beginning

So there is nothing new in the article for you?
Really?

[TheSanityAnnex]

So there is nothing new in the article for you?
Really?

Other than this no.

"Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Post’s sources said."

I passed on the same info from this article two months ago, most here laughed it off.

[pgardn]

Other than this no.

"Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Post’s sources said."

I passed on the same info from this article two months ago, most here laughed it off.

So you knew close range discharge was found on Brown's thumb?
Link dated from way back? I completely missed this. Thanks.

[TheSanityAnnex]

My source is saying that the Feds are the ones leaking new evidence, not anyone local. It has also been leaked by the Feds no civil charges either. Ferguson is about to burn.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So you knew close range discharge was found on Brown's thumb?
Link dated from way back? I completely missed this. Thanks.
I posted about Brown's DNA on the gun way back, I'm not going to dig around in the various threads through thousands of posts to find it but its there.

[boutons_deux]

But Melinek told MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell on Wednesday that her comments had been taken "out of context" and that she believed the findings could be explained by other scenarios as well.

"I made it very clear that we only have partial information here. We don't have the scene information. We don't have the police investigation. We don't have all the witness statements. And you can't interpret autopsy findings in a vacuum."

She and O'Donnell then walked through a variety of alternative situations in which the gunshot residue found on Brown's hand -- the key finding that suggested Brown had been reaching for Wilson's gun -- could have gotten there.

"I'm not saying that Brown going for the gun is the only explanation. I'm saying the officer said he was going for the gun and the right thumb wound supports that," Melinek. "I have limited information. It could also be consistent with other scenarios. That's the important thing. That's why the witnesses need to speak to the grand jury and the grand jury needs to hear all the unbiased testimony and compare those statements to the physical evidence."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/judy-melinek-ferguson-autopsy-report-msnbc?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

[SupremeGuy]

msnbc lol still pushing their race war agenda

[boutons_deux]

msnbc lol still pushing their race war agenda

... because white cops trolling for, baiting blacks IS a race war.

[Silver&Black]

... because white cops trolling for, baiting blacks IS a race war.

Has a black cop ever shot and killed a black teen?? I'm quite positive the answer is yes.

Yet....when that does happen the news world doesn't stop and do a live special in that town. It's just another story the media spends 3 minutes on....not 3 months like it is when a white cop kills a black teen.

[pgardn]

I posted about Brown's DNA on the gun way back, I'm not going to dig around in the various threads through thousands of posts to find it but its there.

You had nothing on chemicals after discharge, which is much more telling than DNA.
But there was nothing new except, except, except...

Can you quit acting like a know it all, like you already had all this Grand Jury evidence posted, because you CLEARly did NOT.

[TheSanityAnnex]

You had nothing on chemicals after discharge, which is much more telling than DNA.
But there was nothing new except, except, except...

Can you quit acting like a know it all, like you already had all this Grand Jury evidence posted, because you CLEARly did NOT.

I'm just passing on the information I receive, which has been correct every, single, time.

Next up a no bill and no civil charges from Feds.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Has a black cop ever shot and killed a black teen?? I'm quite positive the answer is yes.

Yet....when that does happen the news world doesn't stop and do a live special in that town. It's just another story the media spends 3 minutes on....not 3 months like it is when a white cop kills a black teen.


Fuck the media and their race baiting. Here is the Huffington Post title of the shooting involving Vonderitt Myers, in which he opened fire and attempted to kill an officer.

"St. Louis Cop Shot Black Teen 6 Times In Back Of Legs During Fatal Shooting: Family Autopsy"


Never would they put in the title "black teen shoots at St. Louis cop 3 times...."

[pgardn]

Other than this no.

"Seven or eight African American eyewitnesses have provided testimony consistent with Wilson’s account, but none have spoken publicly out of fear for their safety, The Post’s sources said."

I passed on the same info from this article two months ago, most here laughed it off.

So what the hell does this mean Mr. Intheknow?
Have you no shame?

You are so full of BS.

[TheSanityAnnex]

So what the hell does this mean Mr. Intheknow?
Have you no shame?

You are so full of BS.

Actually I'm not. Sit back and watch.

http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/education/in-advance-of-grand-jury-decision-schools-remind-parents-of/article_a77d5cf6-95d4-58c6-8f3e-3413bf3c0be9.html?mobile_touch=true

[Silver&Black]

Fuck the media and their race baiting. Here is the Huffington Post title of the shooting involving Vonderitt Myers, in which he opened fire and attempted to kill an officer.

"St. Louis Cop Shot Black Teen 6 Times In Back Of Legs During Fatal Shooting: Family Autopsy"


Never would they put in the title "black teen shoots at St. Louis cop 3 times...."

I just get so mad at people like Al Sharpton...dude calls himself a man of God. LOL.....

He's the first to judge someone. He plays the race card every chance he gets. And it does nothing but throw gas on the already blazing fire.

White cops kill white teens....Black cops kill white teens...White teens kill White cops...Black teens kill Black cops...basically every combination of the two has happened. Yet...only the White cop kills black teen stories get any pub.

[pgardn]

Actually I'm not. Sit back and watch.

http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/education/in-advance-of-grand-jury-decision-schools-remind-parents-of/article_a77d5cf6-95d4-58c6-8f3e-3413bf3c0be9.html?mobile_touch=true


You presented all the information the grand jury heard, ahead of Wapo, and then you post an article on schools..

Either you are a liar, stupid as hell, or both.

I posted that article because it lended credence to the officer's side. You said you had already posted this info and that there was nothing new. I then illustrate all you did NOT post, and you give me an article on school preparation...
Seriously WTF...?

[pgardn]

I just get so mad at people like Al Sharpton...dude calls himself a man of God. LOL.....

He's the first to judge someone. He plays the race card every chance he gets. And it does nothing but throw gas on the already blazing fire.

White cops kill white teens....Black cops kill white teens...White teens kill White cops...Black teens kill Black cops...basically every combination of the two has happened. Yet...only the White cop kills black teen stories get any pub.

Hispanic wanna be cop kills black kid got even more.
The issue raised is the same. Cops treating blacks unfairly.

In my small anecdotal world I totally believe the sentence directly above because I have seen it so clearly displayed. But... When defending a possibly guilty man for a just cause overrides the truth, we have a possible OJ problem. And then a just cause is diminished. This is why guys like Sharpton actually do a diservice imo.

[TheSanityAnnex]

You presented all the information the grand jury heard, ahead of Wapo, and then you post an article on schools..

Either you are a liar, stupid as hell, or both.

I posted that article because it lended credence to the officer's side. You said you had already posted this info and that there was nothing new. I then illustrate all you did NOT post, and you give me an article on school preparation...
Seriously WTF...?

I did not say there was close range residue on Brown, I only said his DNA was found on the firearm, again, months before any of this came out. Happy? Go back and read what I've shared from the start of this if you really care, check the dates while you're doing it.

The article on the schools was to show you once again I'm not fucking around. Wilson is about to be no billed and no civil charges will be brought by the Feds. It will all be announced when the first nasty storm hits, to prevent mass riots of course.

Any questions?

[boutons_deux]

For the TL;DR crowd, here's a synopsis of the problems with the article written by Christine Byers and Blythe Bernhard for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

The Post-Dispatch says that the autopsy report supports Wilson's version of events. In fact, it supports the earlier eyewitness testimony at least as much as it does Wilson's.

The Post-Dispatch (and later, the Washington Post, which essentially reported on the the St. Louis reporting) claims that a forensic expert said the autopsy shows that Michael Brown was "going for his (Wilson's) gun." Except that's not what the expert said - at least not in anything she provided on the record. She told Lawrence O'Donnell that it was just as likely that Brown was trying to defend himself from being shot.

The Post-Dispatch quotes the expert saying that Michael Brown's was not in surrender posture when he was shot. She actually wrote that she can't say with reasonable certainty that his hands were up when he was shot in the right forearm.

The article claims the expert said the autopsy didn't support witnesses who said Michael Brown was shot while running away or with his hands up. She apparently said nothing of the sort.
The expert quoted has since told Lawrence O'Donnell that she was only asked if the autopsy report was consistent with Darren Wilson's version of events. She was not asked if it fit other scenarios, though there are eyewitness accounts that differ from Wilson's account.

Now, here's a deeper dive with links and quotes - but before we take a look at what Dr. Melinek told the Post-Dispatch - or to be more specific, what the Post-Dispatch chose to print - let's take a look at who Judy Melinek is and how she happens to come into this.

Judy Melinek is a California forensics expert who is frequently called upon as a consultant to interpret autopsy results. She has spent time as a medical examiner, and has written a book about her experiences. When I first read the article in the St. Louis paper, I was flabbergasted at the quotes attributed to her - and you'll see in the excerpts below that the reports presented them as actual quotes, not as paraphrases. I'm not a forensics expert but even I know the fact that someone's hand is near a gun when it goes off does not necessarily mean that they were "going for the gun."
All I could think was that either the expert was incredibly biased, or that there were details in the autopsy that didn't make it into the newspaper. Silly me - I entirely missed a third possibility - that the reporters made up quotes out of their own heads - but that appears to be exactly what happened.

As to how she got dragged into this whole thing, here's the explanation in Dr. Melinek's own words: (http://pathologyexpert.blogspot.com/2014_10_01_archive.html)


A reporter from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch called me earlier this week, saying she had Michael Brown's official autopsy report as prepared by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner, and asking me if I would examine and analyze it from the perspective of a forensic pathologist with no official involvement in the Ferguson, Missouri shooting death.

I bring this up because earlier this afternoon, MSNBC's Joy Reid referred to Dr. Melinek as the doctor who performed the autopsy. Now, Reid is usually pretty on-point with the facts in her reporting, but this was a big oops. And if she's making it, you can be sure that others are definitely making the same mistake.It's not the first time that Dr. Melinek has opined on an autopsy performed on Michael Brown, either. Back in August after the family released the results of the second autopsy, performed by Dr. Michael Baden, Dr. Melinek wrote this about the tweaked autopsy sketch that went viral (http://pathologyexpert.blogspot.com/2014_08_01_archive.html):


Even if Dr. Baden, a board-certified forensic pathologist, looked at photos of the injuries taken prior to the embalming, the orientation and quality of the photos taken by the technician would influence his interpretation of the findings. Autopsy means "see for yourself"—and there is no substitute for seeing the undisturbed body for yourself if you are going to be offering opinions with legal ramifications.

It was difficult to reconcile the person who wrote that with the person who was quoted in Byers' and Bernhard's article. It's important to remember that Dr. Melinek was not offering an opinion with legal ramifications. Rather, she was offering an opinion to a reporter, whose reporting would help shape public opinion in a highly contentious court case. The reporters quoted her thus:


Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”

I read that yesterday morning and thought, "Wait, what? That's a pretty big leap."And indeed it is. If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, it means ... his hand was near the gun when it went off. We don't know why or how his hand got there. It's just as likely that he was trying to block the gun because he was afraid that Darren Wilson was about to kill him.

And, in fact, Melinek appeared on Lawrence O'Donnell's "The Last Word" last night to essentially call bullshit on what the Post-Dispatch said she said, and followed it up with the previously-linked post on her blog (http://pathologyexpert.blogspot.com/2014_10_01_archive.html). According to the doctor, this is what she told the reporter from the newspaper (emphasis mine):


The graze wound on the right thumb is oriented upwards, indicating that the tip of the thumb is toward the weapon. The hand wound has gunpowder particles on microscopic examination, which suggests that it is a close-range wound. That means that Mr. Brown's hand would have been close to the barrel of the gun. Given the investigative report which says that the officer's weapon discharged during a struggle in the officer's car, this wound to the right thumb likely occurred at that time.

We all know that "close to the barrel of the gun" is the exact same thing as "going for the gun." Or not.But the reporters' fuckery doesn't end there. The article goes on:


Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up....

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.


The part I cut with the ... was a description of the wounds to Michael Brown's head, chest and torso. No one disagrees that those shots were fired when Michael Brown was facing Darren Wilson. It's that last paragraph that's a problem. Here's what Dr. Melinek actually had to say about that forearm wound:


You can't say within reasonable certainty that his hands were up based on the autopsy findings alone. The back to front and upward trajectory of the right forearm wound could occur in multiple orientations and a trajectory reconstruction would need to be done using the witness statements, casings, height of the weapon and other evidence from the scene, which have yet to be released.

Again, there's a big difference between "did not support witnesses" who said his hands were up and "can't say within reasonable certainty" that his hands were up -- when that shot hit him. That particular wound goes from back to front, which actually supports earlier eyewitness testimony that Wilson shot at Michael Brown while he was running away, and appeared to hit him. And again, Melinek corrected the Post-Dispatch's reporting (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/forensic-expert-says-michael-brown-autopsy) when she spoke with O'Donnell last night (emphasis mine):


All but one of the gunshots, Melinek said, seem to have struck Brown in the front of his body, which is consistent with witnesses who said Brown had been facing Wilson when he was shot. Depending on any witnesses physical proximity to the shooting, Brown could have been turning to Wilson in surrender, stumbling toward him after being shot or charging him.The shot to the back of Brown’s upper arm, Melinek said, suggested he could have been shot from behind.


As of this writing, the story is still up and uncorrected at St. Louis Today. It's headed by the screen cap posted above, from WPIX News in New York. This is despite the fact that Dr. Melinek has disputed their story, saying it was full of "inaccurate and misleading quotes," and gone on television to correct the record. Frankly, I don't expect them to make the corrections. not do I expect the Washington Post or the various other newspapers, websites and blogs to do the right thing. You're going to hear that the autopsy proves Michael Brown was going for Darren Wilson's gun and that he didn't have his hands up. But at least you'll know where the misinformation came from and where you can find the correction.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/23/1338661/-The-Official-Michael-Brown-Autopsy-Report-Doesn-t-Say-What-the-St-Louis-Post-Dispatch-Says-It-Does?detail=email

nobody worry, the prosecutor will make sure the grand jury votes down a trial

and you right-wingers can continue uninterrupted in your conviction that "the only good n!gg@ is a dead n!gg@ (except if he's playing on the team(s) I support)"

[pgardn]

I did not say there was close range residue on Brown, I only said his DNA was found on the firearm, again, months before any of this came out. Happy? Go back and read what I've shared from the start of this if you really care, check the dates while you're doing it.

The article on the schools was to show you once again I'm not fucking around. Wilson is about to be no billed and no civil charges will be brought by the Feds. It will all be announced when the first nasty storm hits, to prevent mass riots of course.

Any questions?

No.

You are an idiot.
I got it.
Complete whiff on my beef with your antics.

[Infinite_limit]

These "witnesses" would have made great OJ Simpson trial jurors

[TheSanityAnnex]

No.

You are an idiot.
I got it.
Complete whiff on my beef with your antics.

My source says to stop acting so butthurt. You will now be left out of the loop on any future updates to the case.

[boutons_deux]

Police In Ferguson Stock Up On Riot Gear Ahead Of Grand Jury Decision


http://i1.huffpost.com/gen/2217600/thumbs/n-FERGUSON-large570.jpg


The St. Louis County Police Department has stocked up (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/ferguson-police-spending-thousands-riot-gear-protests) on tear gas, less-lethal ammunition and plastic handcuffs in anticipation of massive protests in the suburb of Ferguson, Missouri, if a grand jury doesn't indict the police officer who killed 18-year-old Michael Brown (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/michael-brown/). The jury is expected to reach its decision sometime in November.

Many protesters in Ferguson do not believe (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/ferguson-protesters-darren-wilson_n_6036584.html) that Officer Darren Wilson will be indicted and contend that recent grand jury leaks are meant to prepare the public for that decision.

“It’s going to be a war because they’re not going to indict him,” one protester told The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/21/ferguson-protests-michael-brown-shooting_n_6023964.html) in October.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/riot-gear-ferguson-protests_n_6062608.html

Even if indicted, he won't be convicted, so the riots are unavoidable.

[tlongII]

Police In Ferguson Stock Up On Riot Gear Ahead Of Grand Jury Decision


http://i1.huffpost.com/gen/2217600/thumbs/n-FERGUSON-large570.jpg


The St. Louis County Police Department has stocked up (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/ferguson-police-spending-thousands-riot-gear-protests) on tear gas, less-lethal ammunition and plastic handcuffs in anticipation of massive protests in the suburb of Ferguson, Missouri, if a grand jury doesn't indict the police officer who killed 18-year-old Michael Brown (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/michael-brown/). The jury is expected to reach its decision sometime in November.

Many protesters in Ferguson do not believe (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/ferguson-protesters-darren-wilson_n_6036584.html) that Officer Darren Wilson will be indicted and contend that recent grand jury leaks are meant to prepare the public for that decision.

“It’s going to be a war because they’re not going to indict him,” one protester told The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/21/ferguson-protests-michael-brown-shooting_n_6023964.html) in October.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/28/riot-gear-ferguson-protests_n_6062608.html

Even if indicted, he won't be convicted, so the riots are unavoidable.


So what you're saying is there is a bunch of stupid people in Ferguson?

[boutons_deux]

So what you're saying is there is a bunch of stupid people in Ferguson?

I didn't say that, but if the cops murdered one of YOUR people OVER AND OVER AND OVER and in the context of the cops OVER AND OVER AND OVER harassing and trolling YOUR people, would you be pissed?

[pgardn]

My source says to stop acting so butthurt. You will now be left out of the loop on any future updates to the case.

Why an anal reference... A fixation of yours?

Fact: you said you had posted the evidence, the only thing new for you was black witnesses afraid to come forward.
Reality: there is a whole lot you never posted from your secret loop that the WAPO a article had.

So email your high level secret fantasy friends, I don't mind a bit missing out on your world of hallucinatory grandeur.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Why an anal reference... A fixation of yours?

Fact: you said you had posted the evidence, the only thing new for you was black witnesses afraid to come forward.
Reality: there is a whole lot you never posted from your secret loop that the WAPO a article had.

So email your high level secret fantasy friends, I don't mind a bit missing out on your world of hallucinatory grandeur.
Fact: the only other thing I didn't post was the gun discharge on Brown, everything else had been posted before the WAPO article. I have no need to dig up my old posts to prove anything to you, go ahead and dig through my posts if you care so much. I can ask the three officers I've been communicating with to email you directly if you want a peek into my world of hallucinatory grandeur. I'm shooting with one this weekend at the range we are both members at, want me to have him call you directly so you're in the loop?

[boutons_deux]

so TSA asks the Blue Wall about their brothers they ALWAYS lie to protect? :lol

[boutons_deux]

Autopsy Finds Black Man Killed By Utah Cops Was Shot 6 Times In The Back (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/10/29/3585753/black-man-killed-by-utah-police-for-carrying-toy-sword-was-shot-6-times-in-the-back-autopsy-finds/)

Last month, 22-year-old Darrien Hunt was shot and killed (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/15/3567345/why-was-this-black-man-killed-by-cops-in-utah/) by officers in Saratoga Springs, Utah, while carrying a toy sword. :lol

Police claimed Hunt lunged at them, but a new state autopsy (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865614126/State-autopsy-Police-shot-Darrien-Hunt-6-times-from-behind-no-drugs-in-system.html) released by Hunt’s lawyer finds that Hunt was shot 5 times in the back, and a sixth time on his left hip towards the back.

The autopsy by the Utah State Medical Examiner’s Officer corroborates an earlier private autopsy commissioned by Hunt’s lawyer Robert Sykes that also found he was shot in the back, although Sykes would not initially release a copy of that autopsy. A toxicology report was also released showing that Hunt had no drugs in his body, although officers noted in their original report that Hunt “apparently liked hallucinogens and had taken acid approximately three weeks” before the shooting, according to the Deseret News.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/10/29/3585753/black-man-killed-by-utah-police-for-carrying-toy-sword-was-shot-6-times-in-the-back-autopsy-finds/

Cops just have to "say", not prove, that they "felt threatened" to justify pumping anybody full of lead.

[TheSanityAnnex]

so TSA asks the Blue Wall about their brothers they ALWAYS lie to protect? :lol
I've just been passing on information, nothing more nothing less. As I've said before I'm not fond of most cops, I've been jailed on bogus charges before.

[spurraider21]

Autopsy Finds Black Man Killed By Utah Cops Was Shot 6 Times In The Back (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/10/29/3585753/black-man-killed-by-utah-police-for-carrying-toy-sword-was-shot-6-times-in-the-back-autopsy-finds/)

Last month, 22-year-old Darrien Hunt was shot and killed (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/15/3567345/why-was-this-black-man-killed-by-cops-in-utah/) by officers in Saratoga Springs, Utah, while carrying a toy sword. :lol

Police claimed Hunt lunged at them, but a new state autopsy (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865614126/State-autopsy-Police-shot-Darrien-Hunt-6-times-from-behind-no-drugs-in-system.html) released by Hunt’s lawyer finds that Hunt was shot 5 times in the back, and a sixth time on his left hip towards the back.

The autopsy by the Utah State Medical Examiner’s Officer corroborates an earlier private autopsy commissioned by Hunt’s lawyer Robert Sykes that also found he was shot in the back, although Sykes would not initially release a copy of that autopsy. A toxicology report was also released showing that Hunt had no drugs in his body, although officers noted in their original report that Hunt “apparently liked hallucinogens and had taken acid approximately three weeks” before the shooting, according to the Deseret News.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/10/29/3585753/black-man-killed-by-utah-police-for-carrying-toy-sword-was-shot-6-times-in-the-back-autopsy-finds/

Cops just have to "say", not prove, that they "felt threatened" to justify pumping anybody full of lead.




sad story, and looks like the officer will face charges.

what does that have to do with ferguson?

[boutons_deux]

sad story, and looks like the officer will face charges.

what does that have to do with ferguson?

EVERYTHING. Just more cops killing unarmed/non-threatening/mentally ill people/burning babies in their cribs/etc/etc/etc. Don't want to start a new thread for every one, do we?

[spurraider21]

EVERYTHING. Just more cops killing unarmed/non-threatening/mentally ill people/burning babies in their cribs/etc/etc/etc. Don't want to start a new thread for every one, do we?
You can start a generic "police killing thread" if it makes you feel better. This thread is specifically about Michael brown/ferguson. The elementsnf the two cases aren't really comparable

[RandomGuy]

This doesn't line up with the audio recording they are trying to use. And this guy says he heard two shots? None of the witnesses for Brown can get their stories straight. What a joke.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/08/18/us/SUB-JP-BROWN-2/SUB-JP-BROWN-2-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

[TSA]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/08/18/us/SUB-JP-BROWN-2/SUB-JP-BROWN-2-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

WTF was this bump for? :lol
To remind everyone hands up don’t shoot was a fucking farce and that Obama’s DOJ cleared Darren Wilson?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/doj-report-on-shooting-of-michael-brown.html

[TSA]

One of the strangest random butthurt/rent free bumps I’ve seen in a while.

[TSA]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/08/18/us/SUB-JP-BROWN-2/SUB-JP-BROWN-2-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

what caused you to bump this RG serious question

[boutons_deux]

all the racist cop had to do, cruising a black neighborhood to harass blacks, was to roll up his windows (AUGUST in St Louis) and back his car up when he saw Brown approaching.

but the dumbfuck cop sat there, with his window rolled down? W T F Ferguson's Best And Brightest from bottom of the barrel

[DMC]

RG getting his "I'm with you" faux anger virtue signaling into full swing.

[DarrinS]

Strange bump

[TSA]

WTF was this bump for? :lol
To remind everyone hands up don’t shoot was a fucking farce and that Obama’s DOJ cleared Darren Wilson?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/doj-report-on-shooting-of-michael-brown.html
RandomGuy

[RandomGuy]

RandomGuy

Too much beer on a friday night, tbh.