Why We Must Leave Iraq

[Nbadan]

WHY WE MUST LEAVE IRAQ
by Larry C. Johnson


Sometimes in life there are no good options. It is part of our nature to always assume that we can fix a problem. But in life there are many problems or situations where there is no pleasant solution. If you were at the Windows on the World Restaurant in the North Tower of the World Trade Center at 9 am on September 11, 2001 you had no good options. You could choose to jump or to burn to death. Some choice.

A hard, clear-eyed look at the current situation in Iraq reveals that we are confronted with equally bad choices. If we stay we are facilitating the creation of an Islamic state that will be a client of Iran. If we pull out we are likely to leave the various ethnic groups of Iraq to escalate the civil war already underway. In my judgment we have no alternative but to pull our forces out of Iraq. Like it or not, such a move will be viewed as a defeat of the United States and will create some very serious foreign policy and security problems for us for years to come. However, we are unwilling to make the sacrifices required to achieve something approximating victory. And, what would victory look like? At a minimum we should expect a secular society where the average Iraqi can move around the country without fear of being killed or kidnapped. That is not the case nor is it on the horizon.

We may even be past the point of no return where we could impose changes that would put Iraq back on course to be a secular, democratic nation without sparking a major Shiite counteroffensive. Therefore the time has come to minimize further unnecessary loss of life by our troops and re-craft a new foreign and security policy for the Middle East.


The Current Situation:

Iraq has devolved into a tri-partite state, split among the Kurds in the North, the Shias in the South, and Sunni tribes in the middle. While things are relatively peaceful in the North and South, the central part of Iraq is in the grips of a defacto civil war. Most of the trained and deployed Iraqi police and military forces are Shia. Most of their operations are directed against Sunni targets. The Sunnis do not feel that they have a legitimate voice in the political process. As a result they have decided to fight.

The Shia majority, long oppressed in Iraq, are not willing, nor likely, to relinquish their new status as the tops dogs. They are receiving significant intelligence, economic, and political support from the Islamist government in Iran. The Shia also are well positioned to control a significant portion of Iraq’s vast oil resources. They are not likely to share this wealth with the Sunnis.

There is no effective national government in Iraq. The current group meeting inside the Green Zone to draft the constitution has no real clout. True power is held by tribal chieftains and religious leaders scattered around country. Those leaders are playing both sides of the fence—keeping a toe in the political negotiations in Baghdad while providing money and protection to insurgents.

The insurgency in Iraq is comprised of at least 20 groups. Some of these are Baathists, some are Sunni Islamic extremists, and a few are Shia. They agree on one thing—the United States is an invader and must be expelled. While there is no single leader who can claim the status or mandate as did Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam days, the insurgents in Iraq are as firm and serious as those we faced in Vietnam.

The continued presence of U.S. combat forces and our operations against Iraqi civilians is recruiting new jihadists from around the Muslim world. Notwithstanding U.S. efforts to win the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people, the sectarian strife and the images of U.S. soldiers kicking in the doors of peoples’ homes while searching for insurgents is creating more anger rather than support.

The Sunni insurgents have control of the battlefield in the central belt of Iraq. Even today the United States military cannot keep a six mile stretch of highway open that runs from downtown Baghdad to the International Airport. U.S. diplomatic personnel and many key Iraqi Government officials live inside a security ghetto known euphemistically as the Green Zone. Even during the bleakest days of the war in South Vietnam, U.S. diplomats and soldiers could travel freely around Saigon without fear of being killed in bomb blast or kidnapped. We don’t have that luxury in Baghdad.

Options?

We could potentially defeat the Sunni insurgents if we were willing and able to deploy sufficient troops to control the key infiltration routes that run along the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys. But we are neither willing nor able. It would require at least 380,000 troops devoted exclusively to that mission. Part of that mission would entail killing anyone who moved into controlled areas, such as roadways. In adopting those kinds of rules of engagement we would certainly increase the risk of killing innocent civilians. But, we would impose effective control over those routes. That is a prerequisite to gaining control over the insurgency.

We cannot meet the increased manpower requirements in Iraq without a draft. We do not currently have enough troops in the Army and the Marine Corps to supply and sustain that size of force in the field. But, even with a draft, we would be at least 15 months away from having the new batch of trained soldiers ready to deploy. More importantly, there is no political support for a draft. In other words, we’re unwilling to do what is required to even have a shot at winning.

While the insurgency is not likely to acquire sufficient strength to fight and defeat our forces directly in large set piece battles, they do have the wherewithal to destroy infrastructure and challenge our control of lines of communication. The ultimate test of a government’s legitimacy is whether or not it can protect its citizens from threats foreign and domestic. Thus far the Iraqi Government has made scant progress on this front. Today’s attack in central Baghdad, by a uniformed unit of masked insurgents, represents another disturbing milestone in the continued growth of the insurgency. One of these days we should not be surprised when an insurgent force breaches the Green Zone and takes some U.S. diplomats hostage.

An ideal, but unlikely outcome, is that the secularists, who are trying desperately to craft a legitimate government, will persuade a sufficient number of Shia and Sunni leaders to turn their back on a religious-based government. Unfortunately, they don’t control weapons or militia. Force remains the ultimate means for deciding a country’s fate. In this case the guns are in the hands of those who favor an Islamic state over a secular nation.

If the United States tries to intervene now to compel power sharing on behalf of Sunni interests we are likely to trigger a backlash by the Shia majority. Mullahs like Moqtada al Sadr have demonstrated that they can mobilize combat units to kill Americans when their interests are challenged.

There are some indications that once we are out of the picture that the insurgency will turn on itself. As noted earlier a significant portion of the insurgents are not Islamic extremists. There is evidence that the different groups will fight each other. Sunni tribal chiefs are not likely to cede control of their territory to foreign Islamists once the United States is no longer on the scene. Our departure will likely lead to a brutal civil war, but such a war creates opportunities for the United States where it can rebuild its credibility with those forces who represent modernity and secular progress.

So What’s Next?

Staying the course and enduring further casualties while the insurgency grows stronger is an insane policy. If we persist on that front we will end up strengthening the hand of Islamic extremists and their role within the Iraqi insurgency.

Our choice is simple—either we invest in the military resources and personnel required to defeat the Sunni insurgents and allow the Shia and Kurds to consolidate power or we withdraw and let the Shia, Sunni, and Kurds find their own solution. We cannot ask our soldiers and Marines to give their lives and sacrifice their bodies for a new Islamic state. It is true that our withdrawal will create a major vacuum and damage our prestige. But the alternative, i.e., that we stay and try to train up sufficient Iraqi forces and help the fledgling Islamic Government get on its feet, will leave us the favorite target of insurgents and terrorists. And after we have shed the blood of our sons and daughters in trying to create a new government that will be controlled by Islamists, those Islamists will ultimately insist that we leave Iraq and no longer meddle in their affairs.

Rosy scenario does not live in Iraq. Until we come to grips with this truth American soldiers will continue to be killed and maimed for no good reason.

NoQuarter.Typepad (http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/08/why_we_must_lea.html)

Arrow meets bulls-eye.

:hat

[boutons]

Ouch!!! Larry, you're hitting the red-state true believers below the belt!

DO NOT SPEAK THE UNVARNISHED TRUTH IN SHRUBWORLD.

"damage our prestige."

Sorry, that was alrdeady badly damaged around the world in 2000 when a willfully incompetent Florida handed a fiasco of an election to an incompetent jerk, who has gone on to prove himself repeatdly to be .... an incompetent jerk.

It drives our foreign friends nuts with frustration and perplexity that a country so huge, so powerful, so materially successful, and in so many innumerable ways loved and respected, managed by 10s of 1000s of serious, conscientitious, immensely competent and talented people elects a dumbshit loser like shrub, who then does a dumbshit thing like start a bogus war.

[whottt]

So which is it...

I know I can find post by both of you in recent weeks saying we shouldn't pull out of Iraq(Pre Cindy Sheehan for Nbadan)...and now here you are saying we should...

Hysteria isn't a politcal view.

[MannyIsGod]

We need to play things out in Iraq, and anyone who doesn't understand why is, well, really fucking stupid. That doesn't mean the mistakes of Iraq need to be repeated.

[mookie2001]

leaving now would be the ultimate "fuck you" to iraq

[whottt]

Ok...we all agree on that...so why does Dan post shit like this? and why does boutons, who I know I have seen saying that if we pull out at this point it would be a disaster, chime in, in agreement, with those turds he calls thoughts?

What is the point?

We can't pull out...

The Intermin leaders want us out of there....the Govt pretty much wants to get out of there....so what's the point of continually bitching about it...

We'll leave when the Govt asks us too...they aren't going to ask us to leave until their security forces are capable of maintaining the government. And once they do we pretty much have to respect their wishes if we want that government respected by it's own people.


Does anyone realize how long it takes to do these things historically? Does anyone realizae how many casualties we have lost in other wars compared to this one?

Guerillia wars are fucking messy...people just need to deal with it...if you don't like Bush there is nothing you can do about it now...

If you don't like Republicans then vote against them in the next election..but stop politicizing the fucking war...it doesn't help the guys over there fighting it.

As has been noted...we can't pull out, it would be disastrous, it'd be Afghanistan part 2, the people over there who do support us would then turn on us as well, and literally everyone would hate us, not only would think we are evil war mongers, but it would re-inforce the opinion that we don't really care about other countries or truly care about establishing Democracy.....so what is the point of protesting it?

[mookie2001]

there is nothing funnier when rightwingers accuse others of "politicizing the war"
1. thats polticizing it
2. Bush's 04 campaign was about war/terror/sep 11th and how its the same thing





yeah, watching the o'reilly factor while blown is funnier

[boutons]

"So which is it..."

I don't support pulling our troops out now, any more than I supported sending them to Iraq in the first place.

I don't support leaving our troops there, because I hate seeing their blood spilt and their bodies and minds coming back fucked up (20% come back fucked up with PTSD, which often goes on decades. Ask the Gulf War and Viet Vets) for the fucking Repugs' re-election campaign.

Whott honey, in all humility, I really don't know what the fuck to do.
Stay now, we're fucked.
Leave now, we're fucked.

But I didn't start the fucking war, and it ain't my fucking problem to solve.
But I'll go along with shrub on this point: "I have to get on with my life".

As Larry's article said, double the troops to 300K, and shut the fuckers down. Blast the shit out of anything that moves, including on the other sides of the Syrian and Iranian borders. Then see if the Iraqis can ratify, enforce, live under the constitution FOR 2 OR 3 MORE YEARS, AT LEAST. $1T will be easily burned through by then, if the US builds back all of Saddam's water/electricity/sewage/refineries/oil wells/etc infrastructure that this bogus war has destroyed.

But we can't physically get up to and equip 300K troops, since all the flag-waving, super-patriot red-staters don't want to go fight. And the nation would go nutz as bad as during VN if shrub re-instituted conscription. And shrub won't pay for unbreaking a country that he broke.

We're undermanned, under-equipped, "gone to war with Army we have (Rummy)", and so we're fucked in every orifice for years to come.

God better Bless America, we're gonna need every ounce of it.

( and still the terrorists keep coming )

[spurster]

Hasn't the US been training Iraqi replacements for over 2 years now? If 2 years is not enough, how long is enough?

BushCo says that reducing troops is surrendering to the terrorists. I say reducing troops is trusting/letting/forcing Iraqis to take matters into their own hands.

[cherylsteele]

Whether you are for or against the war in Iraq.,,,makes no difference.

We must not pull out now. Only until the mess is straightened out can we pull out, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[JoeChalupa]

NO way we can pull out now.

[exstatic]

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior, and expecting different results. We can keep doin' what we doin', but ain't nothin' gonna be different. Recognize.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We need to play things out in Iraq, and anyone who doesn't understand why is, well, really fucking stupid.

I was going to write a detailed rebuttal referencing various points in world history, but realized this was much more to the point :lol

[Trainwreck2100]

yeah, watching the o'reilly factor while blown is funnier

Drunk OReilly watching is badass, but you should try that 700club guy, everything is evil. It's hilarious

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You just can't understand can you. Its not like the US went in and freed a bunch of hostages from a lunatic. Iraq is FULL of fucked up religious extremist. Their whole culture does not go well with democratic freedoms and rights the US holds dear, and up to 3 years ago, I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves they could actually think they could force these mofo's into a democratic republic, lol. The US should definetly withdraw now, not for the benefit of the Iraqui people obviously, their country is so fucked up because of this war it will take decades to rebuild its infrastructure if the US leaves, but for its own benefit. This war is draining the american economy, you can't posibly think that by staying you will accomplish anything worth the expenditure it would require. Withdrawing is not only the sound choice in terms of american lives saved, but economically, its a must. Mark my words, Bush's administration is going to remembered as the one to bring about the next severe american depression if this war continues.

[whottt]

Ahhh...yet another so called liberal(or whatever you Argentines are) that thinks these people too savage to join the 21st century....

That's racism buddy...and these guys aint got shit on the Japanese, who were every bit as willing to die, master warriors, and had a much better grasp of modern technology.

What you call arrogance we call the triumph of the human spirit and the sincere belief in liberated people to govern themselves wisely. We've seen it happen time and time again and only the cynics ignore this.

America has been kicking oppressive backwards ass since your country was struggling with it's political identity...oh wait...

You go sit in your cave and spectate, it's what you seem to do best...we'll fix the subhuman conditions in the middle east that threaten every civilized country in the World...we've been doing stuff like it for a long time.

When this is all over(and we won't lose this conflict) the middle east will have a truly free country whose cultural impact will send shockwaves throughout the entire middle east shithole...It's already occuring...

And Iraq will be a despot free country that is free to hate and resent us just like every other country in the World.

And fuck our economy...we'll fix it by technological progression, like we always do...we need to get off fucking petroleum anyway.


Militant Islam wanted us...well militant Islam has got us...don't believe the BS polls or whiney liberals...the American people are behind this...and willing to kick all the ass it takes to suceed...that's why we put W back in office. We aren't going to let our dumbass anti-war protestors fuck us up this time...we learned that lesson...this is a battle that needs to be fought.

[Trainwreck2100]

You just can't understand can you. Its not like the US went in and freed a bunch of hostages from a lunatic. Iraq is FULL of fucked up religious extremist. Their whole culture does not go well with democratic freedoms and rights the US holds dear, and up to 3 years ago, I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves they could actually think they could force these mofo's into a democratic republic, lol. The US should definetly withdraw now, not for the benefit of the Iraqui people obviously, their country is so fucked up because of this war it will take decades to rebuild its infrastructure if the US leaves, but for its own benefit. This war is draining the american economy, you can't posibly think that by staying you will accomplish anything worth the expenditure it would require. Withdrawing is not only the sound choice in terms of american lives saved, but economically, its a must. Mark my words, Bush's administration is going to remembered as the one to bring about the next severe american depression if this war continues.


We still can't just up and leave

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ahhh...yet another so called liberal(or whatever you Argentines are) that thinks these people too savage to join the 21st century....

That's racism buddy...and these guys aint got shit on the Japanese, who were every bit as willing to die, master warriors, and had a much better grasp of modern technology.

What you call arrogance we call the triumph of the human spirit and the sincere belief in liberated people to govern themselves wisely. We've seen it happen time and time again and only the cynics ignore this.

America has been kicking oppressive backwards ass since your country was struggling with it's political identity...oh wait...

You go sit in your cave and spectate, it's what you seem to do best...we'll fix the subhuman conditions in the middle east that threaten every civilized country in the World...we've been doing stuff like it for a long time.

When this is all over(and we won't lose this conflict) the middle east will have a truly free country whose cultural impact will send shockwaves throughout the entire middle east shithole...It's already occuring...

And Iraq will be a despot free country that is free to hate and resent us just like every other country in the World.

And fuck our economy...we'll fix it by technological progression, like we always do...we need to get off fucking petroleum anyway.


Militant Islam wanted us...well militant Islam has got us...don't believe the BS polls or whiney liberals...the American people are behind this...and willing to kick all the ass it takes to suceed...that's why we put W back in office. We aren't going to let our dumbass anti-war protestors fuck us up this time...we learned that lesson...this is a battle that needs to be fought.
You see, I was thinking of making a well thought response to this, but those 3 little parts in bold just demonstrate you ignorance about... well almost everything. I post a thoughtfull opinion on the subject and you feel you need to make derogative comments about Argentina to undermine what I've said? Brilliant. You've managed to cram what you're all about into one little post.

[whottt]

The difference is that when I come off as a condescending asshole it's intentional...too bad we can't say the same for you.


I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves

[JoeChalupa]

We'll be in Iraq for quite awhile.

The consitution negotiations have come to a halt, if I'm not mistaken.

Like Powell said...if we break it we own it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" shit.

[Nbadan]

No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" shit.


Eeekk. Bravo MaNuMaNiA.

:elephant

I wish I could say that people who think like Whott are the exception in Texas, but, well, they're not.

[whottt]

No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" shit.


No no, trust me...you were a condescending asshole before I ever started trashing Argentina...and I have no intention of insulting you into thinking my way. I intend to show you why you are wrong and insult you on top of it...it's much more satisfying that way. Every time you get insulted you kick your own ass you see....

[whottt]

Eeekk. Bravo MaNuMaNiA.

:elephant

I wish I could say that people who think like Whott are the exception in Texas, but, well, they're not.

That's because Americans that don't hate the country live in Texas, Dan...Sorry for your isolation.

[JoeChalupa]

I love America and that is why sometimes I speak out.

[Nbadan]

We need to play things out in Iraq, and anyone who doesn't understand why is, well, really fucking stupid. That doesn't mean the mistakes of Iraq need to be repeated.

No one is saying we should just withdrawal, but I think we can all agree that there needs to be a set time-table and it needs to be a relatively quick time-table. We've tried the 'playing things out' game before and it didn't turn out so good for us. As Mr. Johnson wrote, there is no easy choice in Iraq. We either continue to support a Islamic government that is already closely allied with Iran or we let it slip into a possible civil war. I say we take the route that will bring more of our troops home.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

That's because Americans that don't hate the country live in Texas, Dan...Sorry for your isolation.
Oh please! You think anyone with a different point of view from yours is either anti-american or terrorist. Since when did you become the epitome of what an American should be? Please enlighten everyone here as to how an American should be. Although please refrain from making one of your incredibly long rants that aim to bewilder with sheer quantity rather than substance. This time, get to the point.

[JoeChalupa]

That "Hate America" if you speak out gets on my nerves every time I hear that crap.

[whottt]

Oh please! You think anyone with a different point of view from yours is either anti-american or terrorist.

Not true...I think those that say the exact same things the terrorists say are anti-american and pro terrorist...I am right, they are, whether they realize it or not...the terrorists are the bad guys here. Any argument on their behalf is propaganda and politicized bullshit that preys on those too lazy to check out history for themselves.



Since when did you become the epitome of what an American should be?


I am Joe American...I am the moderate American, these fucking conspiracy theorists aren't the moderate American...get fucking real. IF they are then I don't blame the rest of the world for being scared of us. It's just that simple.




Please enlighten everyone here as to how an American should be.

Americans should not put being liked by enemies of progression, civilization, and freedom of the individual over doing the right thing, it's nice to be liked, but not if it's for doing the wrong thing, and letting people in the Middle East continue to be ruled by dictators and religious fanatics is the wrong fucking thing, and it's so easy to say it isn't when you live in a free society....

Americans need to check their cynicism...


Life is not real complicated...the first thing anyone learns is that you always stand up to a bully...



Although please refrain from making one of your incredibly long rants that aim to bewilder with sheer quantity rather than substance. This time, get to the point.

Sorry that I am not a fast food poster...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not true...I think those that say the exact same things the terrorists say are anti-american and pro terrorist...I am right, they are, whether they realize it or not...the terrorists are the bad guys here. Any argument on their behalf is propaganda and politicized bullshit that preys on those too lazy to check out history for themselves.

There are plenty of reasons why people speak out against the war, and most of them have nothing to do with hating america Whottt; and yet your answer to all of them is either "fucking hater" or "damn terrorist". Its like clockwork with you.

I am Joe American...I am the moderate American, these fucking conspiracy theorists aren't the moderate American...get fucking real. IF they are then I don't blame the rest of the world for being scared of us. It's just that simple.

Please tell me again who's the one being condescending?

Americans should not put being liked by enemies of progression, civilization, and freedom of the individual over doing the right thing, it's nice to be liked, but not if it's for doing the wrong thing, and letting people in the Middle East continue to be ruled by dictators and religious fanatics is the wrong fucking thing, and it's so easy to say it isn't when you live in a free society....

Americans need to check their cynicism...

Life is not real complicated...the first thing anyone learns is that you always stand up to a bully...

I'm sorry, I was under the impression the US started this war to alledgedly protect itself from a terrorist threat, not to heroically liberate the Iraqui people. That part just came after the "terrorist threat" excuse didn't fly I guess.

Sorry that I am not a fast food poster...

LOL, that is exactly what you are. Sheer quantity, cero substance. Fast food at its basest.

[JoeChalupa]

I love my Country.
Served my Country and anyone who thinks I'm anti-American and pro-terrorist can kiss my ass.

[whottt]

There are plenty of reasons why people speak out against the war, and most of them have nothing to do with hating america Whottt; and yet your answer to all of them is either "fucking hater" or "damn terrorist". Its like clockwork with you.

Look...I am not going to fucking argue with you about it...if you say the same things terrorists do...you are supporting the terrorists, whether you realize it or not...and those Americans that say kind of shit and attack this country in that way...I am going to attack them back. If you think I am going to sit there and let people say stupid fuck shit that is factually untrue or bullshit speculation you're fucked in the head. If they have the right to attack this country...I goddamned have the right to defend it, and those don't like my opinion on it can go fuck themselves. This aint going to be no Vietnam...I am not going to sit silent while a bunch of people impose their idea on what this country should do against the will of the people. I am going to speak my mind and badger them the same way they are badgering the country. I like my fucking country...I don't give a fuck if anyone else likes it.







Please tell me again who's the one being condescending?

You asked...but I've voted for the guy who won the popular vote in every election I have been eligible to vote in...regardless of party. And I don't see how pointing out that my view is the average one is being condescending.



I'm sorry, I was under the impression the US started this war to alledgedly protect itself from a terrorist threat, not to heroically liberate the Iraqui people. That part just came after the "terrorist threat" excuse didn't fly I guess.


And what makes you think those two things are different?

How did this terrorist problem grow?

Apathy...not just apathy on the part of America...apathy on the part of Europe, the Soviet Union, America, about the situation in the middle east after two World Wars...

That part where you say, these guys have been fucked up for years, and there is no helping them...well, that's the attitude that the Western Powers had for the entire 20th century...just let the damn crazy native be crazy natives and don't get into their shit...well we are in it now, they brought us into it. There is rampant poverty, human rights violations, illiteracy, and bunch of dictators that think they knows what's best for 100 of millions of people, and they are masters at deflecting their peoples rage at them in our direction. And in an age where one suicidal man can take out a city...it's complete an utter ignorance to be apathetic towards this problem, where you have a comination of a nihilistic religious extremism, billions of dollars, and nuclear technology.

Liberating the Iraqis and getting rid of all these scumbag despots or pressuring them to stop being brutally opressive to these people, is the best way to defeat terrorism..it's the only way to do it.

What's good for them is good for us...




LOL, that is exactly what you are. Sheer quantity, cero substance. Fast food at its basest.

Yawn...maybe I should stick to indepth commentary like, WAR FOR OIL, IMPERIALISM, HALIBURTON...oooh so impressive.

[Nbadan]

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{308D520D-9617-4307-AA2B-070FF2D6D817}.gif

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10110/mURI_temp_f8fbd222.jpg

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B308D520D-9617-4307-AA2B-070FF2D6D817%7D.gif

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10110/mURI_temp_f8fbd222.jpg
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[whottt]

http://www.cagle.com/working/050628/langer.gif

:lmao

[boutons]

"Liberating the Iraqis and getting rid of all these scumbag despots"

Whott, you keep chasing your shitty tail. Iraq wasn't involved in Islamic terrorism, no matter how many times dickhead mumbles it was. dickhead is a con-man who has descended to being an object of ridicule by insisting Saddam was connected to 9/11 specifically and terrorism in general withlout presenting fucking iota of evidence (executive privilege allows to keep his unique evidence secret).

Iraq was invaded, by the Repugs for the Repugs, in order to win the 2004 election. It was Rove-ian scumbag re-election strategy that worked, but just barely with the tiniest %age of victory margins. The Iraq was has NOTHING to with the source jihadi terrorism. JUST THE OPPOSITE. The Iraq is the dominant source, created by the Repugs, for jihadi terrorism.

The main reason given, WMD, and the next 20 reasons, were all lies. THAT's a truth worth "squealing" no matter how times you right-wing radical dickheads say you are tired of hearing it.

So which country do you say US will invade next to rid it scumbag despots?

What's the schedule?

When will conscription be re-instated to support your very long list of invasions?

And just how will these invasions NOT be inflammatory terrorist recruiting
campaigns, far more effective than any recruiting campaign for your red-state super-patriot kids (who seem to have lost all taste for the Iraq invasion)?

[Clandestino]

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{308D520D-9617-4307-AA2B-070FF2D6D817}.gif

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10110/mURI_temp_f8fbd222.jpg

You're a fucking D I S G R A C E !

[boutons]

"You're a fucking D I S G R A C E !"

These cartoons depict absolutely nothing but EXACTLY the reason, from the incredible pathological "shrub-think", that shrub said, just a couple days ago, that he will keep wasting US lives in Iraq:

paraphrase: We must "honor" the US lives that I and the Repugs have wasted in Iraq by wasting more US lives, so no life will be wasted in vain.

and then, shrub "got on with my life".

The only insanity greater than shrubworld is the insanity of those who support and defend the insanity.

Meanwhile, back at the Iraqi Ranch of Freedom, Democracy, and Terrorism Central built with wasted US military lives:

Sunnis Offer Counterproposals on the Iraqi Constitution

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 9:10 a.m. ET

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Sunni negotiator Fakhri al-Qaisi said Saturday that the Sunnis have submitted counter-proposals on the constitution to the parliament speaker and will meet later with the U.S. ambassador.

Al-Qaisi said Sunni Arab delegates had met with parliament speaker Hajim al-Hassani and ''we gave him the amendments on the draft. We are waiting for an answer.''

He said the Sunnis would also confer later with U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad.

Al-Qaisi said the Sunnis do not accept the draft which Shiites and Kurds said Friday was complete. He said the Sunnis would not agree ''unless the amendments we added today are included'' in the version which will be given to parliament Sunday.

On federalism, he said the Sunnis wanted ''decentralized'' provinces with a ''special case'' for Kurdish areas but the Shiite position on the status of the Baath Party ''is totally rejected.''

[xrayzebra]

Lets see, we went into Germany 60 years ago, into Japan in 60 years ago, into
Korea in 1950 into Kosovo about 8-9 years ago and into Iraq two years ago, but we
need a plan to get out of Iraq, errrrrr, why not the other places. Same old arguments, as Regan said: there you go again. What a bunch of losers and as usual
wrong as can be..........oh, have you all noticed: Bush is President and will be for
a few more years....get used to it......

[Hook Dem]

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{308D520D-9617-4307-AA2B-070FF2D6D817}.gif

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10110/mURI_temp_f8fbd222.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3476/mentallydeficient6ya.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The sad thing is every time another US troop dies, Dan gets a smile on his face.

People like you don't deserve to be able to say US troops died protecting your freedom.

[Jelly]

[QUOTE=boutons]"Liberating the Iraqis and getting rid of all these scumbag despots"

Iraq was invaded, by the Repugs for the Repugs, in order to win the 2004 election.
QUOTE]

um....you do realize that your white knight democrats overwhelmingly supported invading Iraq?

[Jelly]

NBADan,
There's nothing wrong with anti-war cartoons per se, but mocking dead and wounded troops is in incredibly bad taste. The cartoonist that did these - especially the first one- has got to be a total asshole.

[j-6]

NBADan,
There's nothing wrong with anti-war cartoons per se, but mocking dead and wounded troops is in incredibly bad taste. The cartoonist that did these - especially the first one- has got to be a total asshole.

I wonder how much shit the Denver Post and the Miami Herald are catching.

(aside - it's almost like those cartoons were meant to be viewed together, though. Even the his, his, her, his thing matches up. Strange.)

[JoeChalupa]

Political cartoons are not always "politically correct" and in bad taste but they are meant to be to get their point across.

[Jelly]

Political cartoons are not always "politically correct" and in bad taste but they are meant to be to get their point across.

It's not about being PC...when is the last time you saw a PC cartoon? All political cartoons are about mocking someone...in this case they are mocking the soldiers (especially in the first one) and I think that's some very tacky and offensive bullshit. The 'point' they are getting across is that the dying and wounded soldiers are delusional, clueless idiots.

[whottt]

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/images/binladen.gif
I laughed!

[whottt]

evolution at work, taking stupidity out of the gene pool. - boutons referring to a US soldier.

boutons supports the troops too....

[JoeChalupa]

Well, I don't see it that way and apparently their message is coming through because they've struck a nerve with you. So in escence, their purpose has been served.

But don't get me wrong, I see the offensive nature of the cartoon.

[JoeChalupa]

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/images/binladen.gif
I laughed!

I've Ben Hiden.

[whottt]

Political cartoons are not always "politically correct" and in bad taste but they are meant to be to get their point across.


Well that's what I am doing every time I call a pro-terrorist a pro-terrorist.

I'm just kidding, while trying to make a point.

[whottt]

I just hope you guys can maintain your sense of humor when I make one of my little pro-terrorist jokes as well as you do when you are laughing and making jokes about the deaths of US Soldiers.

[JoeChalupa]

Bring it on!!! :lol

[whottt]

I wasn't referring to you Joe...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's not about being PC...when is the last time you saw a PC cartoon? All political cartoons are about mocking someone...in this case they are mocking the soldiers (especially in the first one) and I think that's some very tacky and offensive bullshit. The 'point' they are getting across is that the dying and wounded soldiers are delusional, clueless idiots.
I suppose you're right, it was insensitive. However, it is true that most of the supporters of this war ALWAYS hide behind the "dead hero" safety blanket. It has gotten to a point that noone can criticize the war without being accused of wishing the American troops would die. That is simply idiotic. There is plenty of ways you can read into that cartoon. One way is to find it offensive and disregard any message it may be trying to portray. Another could be that its a harsh criticism of the way the Bush administration has been marketing this war. "Stay the course", "finish what we started" in other words young American men and women should continue dying so as to make their predecessor's death less in vain. Again I'm just reading into the article.

[JoeChalupa]

I wasn't referring to you Joe...

Well, you do have a way of getting your point across and I admit sometimes I read something that gets my underwear in a ball but I get the message.

[Nbadan]

Some of you need to take a chill pill.

The cartoons are not an attack on the troops. They are a sad commentary on the roving rational for the war.

WMD's
Saddam's Connections to International Terror
Building a democracy
and now, honoring the fallen troops.

Yeah, this adminstration cares so much about it's fallen troops that it hides them by bringing them in late a night, under the cover of darkness and exactly how many funerals has W attended for the troops fighting his elective war? None.

[JoeChalupa]

I didn't take them as an attack on the troop either but I can clearly see why some do.

[ChumpDumper]

C'mon, Bush's writers couldn't have seen this coming after spitting out such a silly circular platitude? They shouldn't be throwing slow over the plate if they don't want to see these.

[JoeChalupa]

Vision without a plan is a hallucination.