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  1. #1
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    WHY WE MUST LEAVE IRAQ
    by Larry C. Johnson


    Sometimes in life there are no good options. It is part of our nature to always assume that we can fix a problem. But in life there are many problems or situations where there is no pleasant solution. If you were at the Windows on the World Restaurant in the North Tower of the World Trade Center at 9 am on September 11, 2001 you had no good options. You could choose to jump or to burn to death. Some choice.

    A hard, clear-eyed look at the current situation in Iraq reveals that we are confronted with equally bad choices. If we stay we are facilitating the creation of an Islamic state that will be a client of Iran. If we pull out we are likely to leave the various ethnic groups of Iraq to escalate the civil war already underway. In my judgment we have no alternative but to pull our forces out of Iraq. Like it or not, such a move will be viewed as a defeat of the United States and will create some very serious foreign policy and security problems for us for years to come. However, we are unwilling to make the sacrifices required to achieve something approximating victory. And, what would victory look like? At a minimum we should expect a secular society where the average Iraqi can move around the country without fear of being killed or kidnapped. That is not the case nor is it on the horizon.

    We may even be past the point of no return where we could impose changes that would put Iraq back on course to be a secular, democratic nation without sparking a major Shiite counteroffensive. Therefore the time has come to minimize further unnecessary loss of life by our troops and re-craft a new foreign and security policy for the Middle East.


    The Current Situation:

    Iraq has devolved into a tri-par e state, split among the Kurds in the North, the Shias in the South, and Sunni tribes in the middle. While things are relatively peaceful in the North and South, the central part of Iraq is in the grips of a defacto civil war. Most of the trained and deployed Iraqi police and military forces are Shia. Most of their operations are directed against Sunni targets. The Sunnis do not feel that they have a legitimate voice in the political process. As a result they have decided to fight.

    The Shia majority, long oppressed in Iraq, are not willing, nor likely, to relinquish their new status as the tops dogs. They are receiving significant intelligence, economic, and political support from the Islamist government in Iran. The Shia also are well positioned to control a significant portion of Iraq’s vast oil resources. They are not likely to share this wealth with the Sunnis.

    There is no effective national government in Iraq. The current group meeting inside the Green Zone to draft the cons ution has no real clout. True power is held by tribal chieftains and religious leaders scattered around country. Those leaders are playing both sides of the fence—keeping a toe in the political negotiations in Baghdad while providing money and protection to insurgents.

    The insurgency in Iraq is comprised of at least 20 groups. Some of these are Baathists, some are Sunni Islamic extremists, and a few are Shia. They agree on one thing—the United States is an invader and must be expelled. While there is no single leader who can claim the status or mandate as did Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam days, the insurgents in Iraq are as firm and serious as those we faced in Vietnam.

    The continued presence of U.S. combat forces and our operations against Iraqi civilians is recruiting new jihadists from around the Muslim world. Notwithstanding U.S. efforts to win the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people, the sectarian strife and the images of U.S. soldiers kicking in the doors of peoples’ homes while searching for insurgents is creating more anger rather than support.

    The Sunni insurgents have control of the battlefield in the central belt of Iraq. Even today the United States military cannot keep a six mile stretch of highway open that runs from downtown Baghdad to the International Airport. U.S. diplomatic personnel and many key Iraqi Government officials live inside a security ghetto known euphemistically as the Green Zone. Even during the bleakest days of the war in South Vietnam, U.S. diplomats and soldiers could travel freely around Saigon without fear of being killed in bomb blast or kidnapped. We don’t have that luxury in Baghdad.

    Options?

    We could potentially defeat the Sunni insurgents if we were willing and able to deploy sufficient troops to control the key infiltration routes that run along the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys. But we are neither willing nor able. It would require at least 380,000 troops devoted exclusively to that mission. Part of that mission would entail killing anyone who moved into controlled areas, such as roadways. In adopting those kinds of rules of engagement we would certainly increase the risk of killing innocent civilians. But, we would impose effective control over those routes. That is a prerequisite to gaining control over the insurgency.

    We cannot meet the increased manpower requirements in Iraq without a draft. We do not currently have enough troops in the Army and the Marine Corps to supply and sustain that size of force in the field. But, even with a draft, we would be at least 15 months away from having the new batch of trained soldiers ready to deploy. More importantly, there is no political support for a draft. In other words, we’re unwilling to do what is required to even have a shot at winning.

    While the insurgency is not likely to acquire sufficient strength to fight and defeat our forces directly in large set piece battles, they do have the wherewithal to destroy infrastructure and challenge our control of lines of communication. The ultimate test of a government’s legitimacy is whether or not it can protect its citizens from threats foreign and domestic. Thus far the Iraqi Government has made scant progress on this front. Today’s attack in central Baghdad, by a uniformed unit of masked insurgents, represents another disturbing milestone in the continued growth of the insurgency. One of these days we should not be surprised when an insurgent force breaches the Green Zone and takes some U.S. diplomats hostage.

    An ideal, but unlikely outcome, is that the secularists, who are trying desperately to craft a legitimate government, will persuade a sufficient number of Shia and Sunni leaders to turn their back on a religious-based government. Unfortunately, they don’t control weapons or militia. Force remains the ultimate means for deciding a country’s fate. In this case the guns are in the hands of those who favor an Islamic state over a secular nation.

    If the United States tries to intervene now to compel power sharing on behalf of Sunni interests we are likely to trigger a backlash by the Shia majority. Mullahs like Moqtada al Sadr have demonstrated that they can mobilize combat units to kill Americans when their interests are challenged.

    There are some indications that once we are out of the picture that the insurgency will turn on itself. As noted earlier a significant portion of the insurgents are not Islamic extremists. There is evidence that the different groups will fight each other. Sunni tribal chiefs are not likely to cede control of their territory to foreign Islamists once the United States is no longer on the scene. Our departure will likely lead to a brutal civil war, but such a war creates opportunities for the United States where it can rebuild its credibility with those forces who represent modernity and secular progress.

    So What’s Next?

    Staying the course and enduring further casualties while the insurgency grows stronger is an insane policy. If we persist on that front we will end up strengthening the hand of Islamic extremists and their role within the Iraqi insurgency.

    Our choice is simple—either we invest in the military resources and personnel required to defeat the Sunni insurgents and allow the Shia and Kurds to consolidate power or we withdraw and let the Shia, Sunni, and Kurds find their own solution. We cannot ask our soldiers and Marines to give their lives and sacrifice their bodies for a new Islamic state. It is true that our withdrawal will create a major vacuum and damage our prestige. But the alternative, i.e., that we stay and try to train up sufficient Iraqi forces and help the fledgling Islamic Government get on its feet, will leave us the favorite target of insurgents and terrorists. And after we have shed the blood of our sons and daughters in trying to create a new government that will be controlled by Islamists, those Islamists will ultimately insist that we leave Iraq and no longer meddle in their affairs.

    Rosy scenario does not live in Iraq. Until we come to grips with this truth American soldiers will continue to be killed and maimed for no good reason.
    NoQuarter.Typepad

    Arrow meets bulls-eye.


  2. #2
    Multimedia Spurs
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    Ouch!!! Larry, you're hitting the red-state true believers below the belt!

    DO NOT SPEAK THE UNVARNISHED TRUTH IN SHRUBWORLD.

    "damage our prestige."

    Sorry, that was alrdeady badly damaged around the world in 2000 when a willfully incompetent Florida handed a fiasco of an election to an incompetent jerk, who has gone on to prove himself repeatdly to be .... an incompetent jerk.

    It drives our foreign friends nuts with frustration and perplexity that a country so huge, so powerful, so materially successful, and in so many innumerable ways loved and respected, managed by 10s of 1000s of serious, conscien ious, immensely competent and talented people elects a dumb loser like shrub, who then does a dumb thing like start a bogus war.

  3. #3
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    So which is it...

    I know I can find post by both of you in recent weeks saying we shouldn't pull out of Iraq(Pre Cindy Sheehan for Nbadan)...and now here you are saying we should...

    Hysteria isn't a politcal view.

  4. #4
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    We need to play things out in Iraq, and anyone who doesn't understand why is, well, really ing stupid. That doesn't mean the mistakes of Iraq need to be repeated.

  5. #5
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    leaving now would be the ultimate " you" to iraq

  6. #6
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    Ok...we all agree on that...so why does Dan post like this? and why does boutons, who I know I have seen saying that if we pull out at this point it would be a disaster, chime in, in agreement, with those turds he calls thoughts?

    What is the point?

    We can't pull out...

    The Intermin leaders want us out of there....the Govt pretty much wants to get out of there....so what's the point of continually ing about it...

    We'll leave when the Govt asks us too...they aren't going to ask us to leave until their security forces are capable of maintaining the government. And once they do we pretty much have to respect their wishes if we want that government respected by it's own people.


    Does anyone realize how long it takes to do these things historically? Does anyone realizae how many casualties we have lost in other wars compared to this one?

    Guerillia wars are ing messy...people just need to deal with it...if you don't like Bush there is nothing you can do about it now...

    If you don't like Republicans then vote against them in the next election..but stop politicizing the ing war...it doesn't help the guys over there fighting it.

    As has been noted...we can't pull out, it would be disastrous, it'd be Afghanistan part 2, the people over there who do support us would then turn on us as well, and literally everyone would hate us, not only would think we are evil war mongers, but it would re-inforce the opinion that we don't really care about other countries or truly care about establishing Democracy.....so what is the point of protesting it?

  7. #7
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    there is nothing funnier when rightwingers accuse others of "politicizing the war"
    1. thats polticizing it
    2. Bush's 04 campaign was about war/terror/sep 11th and how its the same thing





    yeah, watching the o'reilly factor while blown is funnier

  8. #8
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    "So which is it..."

    I don't support pulling our troops out now, any more than I supported sending them to Iraq in the first place.

    I don't support leaving our troops there, because I hate seeing their blood spilt and their bodies and minds coming back ed up (20% come back ed up with PTSD, which often goes on decades. Ask the Gulf War and Viet Vets) for the ing Repugs' re-election campaign.

    Whott honey, in all humility, I really don't know what the to do.
    Stay now, we're ed.
    Leave now, we're ed.

    But I didn't start the ing war, and it ain't my ing problem to solve.
    But I'll go along with shrub on this point: "I have to get on with my life".

    As Larry's article said, double the troops to 300K, and shut the ers down. Blast the out of anything that moves, including on the other sides of the Syrian and Iranian borders. Then see if the Iraqis can ratify, enforce, live under the cons ution FOR 2 OR 3 MORE YEARS, AT LEAST. $1T will be easily burned through by then, if the US builds back all of Saddam's water/electricity/sewage/refineries/oil wells/etc infrastructure that this bogus war has destroyed.

    But we can't physically get up to and equip 300K troops, since all the flag-waving, super-patriot red-staters don't want to go fight. And the nation would go nutz as bad as during VN if shrub re-ins uted conscription. And shrub won't pay for unbreaking a country that he broke.

    We're undermanned, under-equipped, "gone to war with Army we have (Rummy)", and so we're ed in every orifice for years to come.

    God better Bless America, we're gonna need every ounce of it.

    ( and still the terrorists keep coming )

  9. #9
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    Hasn't the US been training Iraqi replacements for over 2 years now? If 2 years is not enough, how long is enough?

    BushCo says that reducing troops is surrendering to the terrorists. I say reducing troops is trusting/letting/forcing Iraqis to take matters into their own hands.

  10. #10
    Steele Curtain cherylsteele's Avatar
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    Whether you are for or against the war in Iraq.,,,makes no difference.

    We must not pull out now. Only until the mess is straightened out can we pull out, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

  11. #11
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    NO way we can pull out now.

  12. #12
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior, and expecting different results. We can keep doin' what we doin', but ain't nothin' gonna be different. Recognize.

  13. #13
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    We need to play things out in Iraq, and anyone who doesn't understand why is, well, really ing stupid.
    I was going to write a detailed rebuttal referencing various points in world history, but realized this was much more to the point

  14. #14
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    yeah, watching the o'reilly factor while blown is funnier
    Drunk OReilly watching is badass, but you should try that 700club guy, everything is evil. It's hilarious

  15. #15
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    You just can't understand can you. Its not like the US went in and freed a bunch of hostages from a lunatic. Iraq is FULL of ed up religious extremist. Their whole culture does not go well with democratic freedoms and rights the US holds dear, and up to 3 years ago, I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves they could actually think they could force these mofo's into a democratic republic, lol. The US should definetly withdraw now, not for the benefit of the Iraqui people obviously, their country is so ed up because of this war it will take decades to rebuild its infrastructure if the US leaves, but for its own benefit. This war is draining the american economy, you can't posibly think that by staying you will accomplish anything worth the expenditure it would require. Withdrawing is not only the sound choice in terms of american lives saved, but economically, its a must. Mark my words, Bush's administration is going to remembered as the one to bring about the next severe american depression if this war continues.

  16. #16
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    Ahhh...yet another so called liberal(or whatever you Argentines are) that thinks these people too savage to join the 21st century....

    That's racism buddy...and these guys aint got on the Japanese, who were every bit as willing to die, master warriors, and had a much better grasp of modern technology.

    What you call arrogance we call the triumph of the human spirit and the sincere belief in liberated people to govern themselves wisely. We've seen it happen time and time again and only the cynics ignore this.

    America has been kicking oppressive backwards ass since your country was struggling with it's political iden y...oh wait...

    You go sit in your cave and spectate, it's what you seem to do best...we'll fix the subhuman conditions in the middle east that threaten every civilized country in the World...we've been doing stuff like it for a long time.

    When this is all over(and we won't lose this conflict) the middle east will have a truly free country whose cultural impact will send shockwaves throughout the entire middle east hole...It's already occuring...

    And Iraq will be a despot free country that is free to hate and resent us just like every other country in the World.

    And our economy...we'll fix it by technological progression, like we always do...we need to get off ing petroleum anyway.


    Militant Islam wanted us...well militant Islam has got us...don't believe the BS polls or whiney liberals...the American people are behind this...and willing to kick all the ass it takes to suceed...that's why we put W back in office. We aren't going to let our dumbass anti-war protestors us up this time...we learned that lesson...this is a battle that needs to be fought.
    Last edited by whottt; 08-27-2005 at 12:41 AM.

  17. #17
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    You just can't understand can you. Its not like the US went in and freed a bunch of hostages from a lunatic. Iraq is FULL of ed up religious extremist. Their whole culture does not go well with democratic freedoms and rights the US holds dear, and up to 3 years ago, I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves they could actually think they could force these mofo's into a democratic republic, lol. The US should definetly withdraw now, not for the benefit of the Iraqui people obviously, their country is so ed up because of this war it will take decades to rebuild its infrastructure if the US leaves, but for its own benefit. This war is draining the american economy, you can't posibly think that by staying you will accomplish anything worth the expenditure it would require. Withdrawing is not only the sound choice in terms of american lives saved, but economically, its a must. Mark my words, Bush's administration is going to remembered as the one to bring about the next severe american depression if this war continues.

    We still can't just up and leave

  18. #18
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Ahhh...yet another so called liberal(or whatever you Argentines are) that thinks these people too savage to join the 21st century....

    That's racism buddy...and these guys aint got on the Japanese, who were every bit as willing to die, master warriors, and had a much better grasp of modern technology.

    What you call arrogance we call the triumph of the human spirit and the sincere belief in liberated people to govern themselves wisely. We've seen it happen time and time again and only the cynics ignore this.

    America has been kicking oppressive backwards ass since your country was struggling with it's political iden y...oh wait...

    You go sit in your cave and spectate, it's what you seem to do best...we'll fix the subhuman conditions in the middle east that threaten every civilized country in the World...we've been doing stuff like it for a long time.

    When this is all over(and we won't lose this conflict) the middle east will have a truly free country whose cultural impact will send shockwaves throughout the entire middle east hole...It's already occuring...

    And Iraq will be a despot free country that is free to hate and resent us just like every other country in the World.

    And our economy...we'll fix it by technological progression, like we always do...we need to get off ing petroleum anyway.


    Militant Islam wanted us...well militant Islam has got us...don't believe the BS polls or whiney liberals...the American people are behind this...and willing to kick all the ass it takes to suceed...that's why we put W back in office. We aren't going to let our dumbass anti-war protestors us up this time...we learned that lesson...this is a battle that needs to be fought.
    You see, I was thinking of making a well thought response to this, but those 3 little parts in bold just demonstrate you ignorance about... well almost everything. I post a thoughtfull opinion on the subject and you feel you need to make derogative comments about Argentina to undermine what I've said? Brilliant. You've managed to cram what you're all about into one little post.

  19. #19
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    The difference is that when I come off as a condescending asshole it's intentional...too bad we can't say the same for you.

    I didn't think it was posible that someone was so full of themselves

  20. #20
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    We'll be in Iraq for quite awhile.

    The consitution negotiations have come to a halt, if I'm not mistaken.

    Like Powell said...if we break it we own it.

  21. #21
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

    P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" .
    Last edited by MaNuMaNiA; 08-27-2005 at 01:28 AM.

  22. #22
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

    P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" .

    Eeekk. Bravo MaNuMaNiA.



    I wish I could say that people who think like Whott are the exception in Texas, but, well, they're not.

  23. #23
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    No no, don't missundertand me. I sound condescending when I talk to YOU, and that is because I do believe I'm better than you. I am a better person. You on the other hand are an insecure little man who believes that you can actually insult people into thinking your way. Well be my guest. Everyone who has read, reads, or will read anything you write knows what you're all about.

    P.S I do believe Bush is full of himself. There is nothing condescending about that. What else do you call that "you're either with us, or against us" .

    No no, trust me...you were a condescending asshole before I ever started trashing Argentina...and I have no intention of insulting you into thinking my way. I intend to show you why you are wrong and insult you on top of it...it's much more satisfying that way. Every time you get insulted you kick your own ass you see....

  24. #24
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    Eeekk. Bravo MaNuMaNiA.



    I wish I could say that people who think like Whott are the exception in Texas, but, well, they're not.
    That's because Americans that don't hate the country live in Texas, Dan...Sorry for your isolation.

  25. #25
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I love America and that is why sometimes I speak out.

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