The Ferguson Indictment (on Justice)

[ChumpDumper]

We did win the Vietnam War.:lol

[Nbadan]

Har..har...Yoni playing the race card...


"“There’s nothing here, not even a bruise.” Nancy Grace gives her blunt analysis on Darren Wilson’s testimony. Several attorneys have commented on the way St. Louis prosecutor Bob McCulloch conducted the non-prosecution “against” Wilson and Wilson’s testimony. Grace is known as someone who is always defending the actions of police officers. Not this time.

Grace: ”The grand jurors are like sheep, they’re babes in the woods. The prosecutor’s duty is to seek the truth. I am telling you that the prosecutors, if they want an indictment, they will get an indictment. When I went to a grand jury, I went to the grand jury on each case because I believed the offense had been committed and I had the right guy or the police had the right guy, and I went in there to present our evidence. If I didn’t think there was a case I would never have gone to the grand jury. You don’t use the grand jury to achieve your personal gain, to achieve what you want them to do. You go in to get a true verdict.”"* The Young Turks hosts John Iadarola (TYT University) and Ben Mankiewicz break it down.

*Read more here: http://politic365.com/2014/11/29/it-doesnt-add-up-nancy-grace-slams-darren-wilsons-testimony/

[TheSanityAnnex]

I hope Luther Head (Brown's step dad) is prosecuted to the fullest for inciting a riot with his burn this bitch down comments. Class A felony in Missouri, 15 years minimum, fuck that guy.

[Nbadan]

:lol

That's why the wing-nuts are losing this ideological war....they'll blame the media instead of their own ability to deny..deny...deny..

[TheSanityAnnex]

Har..har...Yoni playing the race card...



*Read more here: http://politic365.com/2014/11/29/it-doesnt-add-up-nancy-grace-slams-darren-wilsons-testimony/

McColluch knew he didn't have a case, the witness testimony clearly proves this. He was forced to bring it to a grand jury to appease the community of dipshits who bought the lies the media was spewing.

[Nbadan]

Bob McCulloch should be charged with accessory to murder after the fact...his performance with the jury was pathetic. He ignored evidence that could have convicted Darren Wilson and then lied about other evidence that he used to justify murder. He is an accessory to murder.

[Yonivore]

Nice try.
It's a legitimate question. What does the shooting of Mike Brown have to do with race?

He allegedly robbed a convenience store and strong-armed the owner when he tried to stop him (supported by video evidence). He then attacked a Ferguson Police Officer who stopped to tell him to not walk down the center of the street and then noticed he fit the description of the robber and was carrying an item that was the same as what was stolen. During that struggle, he tried to gain control of the officer's service weapon and received a contact gunshot wound to his right thumb for his trouble. After receiving the wound to his hand, he took off running and, when the officer exited his patrol vehicle and pursued, he turned and charged the officer...and was fatally shot for his efforts.

What does any of that have to do with his race? I suggest if a 6'3", 300lb white man had done the same, he would have received the same.

[Nbadan]

I hope Luther Head (Brown's step dad) is prosecuted to the fullest for inciting a riot with his burn this bitch down comments. Class A felony in Missouri, 15 years minimum, fuck that guy.

The bigger question is whether McCullough will testify in his defense like he did for Darren Wilson....

[ChumpDumper]

It's a legitimate question. What does the shooting of Mike Brown have to do with race?

He allegedly robbed a convenience store and strong-armed the owner when he tried to stop him (supported by video evidence). He then attacked a Ferguson Police Officer who stopped to tell him to not walk down the center of the street and then noticed he fit the description of the robber and was carrying an item that was the same as what was stolen. During that struggle, he tried to gain control of the officer's service weapon and received a contact gunshot wound to his right thumb for his trouble. After receiving the wound to his hand, he took off running and, when the officer exited his patrol vehicle and pursued, he turned and charged the officer...and was fatally shot for his efforts.

What does any of that have to do with his race? I suggest if a 6'3", 300lb white man had done the same, he would have received the same.I suggest the white guy wouldn't have been called out for walking in the street.

I suggest the cop wouldn't unload his gun wildly in an upscale white neighborhood.

I suggest the cop wouldn't even be hanging around looking for citizens to hassle in an upscale white neighborhood.

It doesn't have everything to do with race, but it's a factor.

[Yonivore]

:lol

You need to study history.

7hqYGHZCJwk

[Yonivore]

I suggest the white guy wouldn't have been called out for walking in the street.

I suggest the cop wouldn't unload his gun wildly in an upscale white neighborhood.

I suggest the cop wouldn't even be hanging around looking for citizens to hassle in an upscale white neighborhood.

It doesn't have everything to do with race, but it's a factor.
No, it's not. You're just making shit up.

[Yonivore]

The bigger question is whether McCullough will testify in his defense like he did for Darren Wilson....

McCullough didn't testify. But, I'm sure he'll provide the Grand Jury with the same level of thoroughness as he did with Officer Wilson; presenting evidence, offering all potentially applicable indictments for considerations, etc...

[Yonivore]

Har..har...Yoni playing the race card...

*Read more here: http://politic365.com/2014/11/29/it-doesnt-add-up-nancy-grace-slams-darren-wilsons-testimony/
I will agree with the suggestion McCullough didn't want an indictment of Officer Wilson. In a normal world, he would not have even brought the matter to a Grand Jury because, there was zero evidence Wilson acted counter to the law. McCullough would have had to make up facts in order to seek an indictment of Wilson.

[ChumpDumper]

You need to study history.

7hqYGHZCJwkHistory says that Nixon signed the bipartisan law that stopped bombing for good, which was the only thing that was ever effective against Hanoi.

The US was done with Vietnam, and the US lost. Trying to prop up the South with some supplies wasn't going to work.

[Yonivore]

History says that Nixon signed the bipartisan law that stopped bombing for good, which was the only thing that was ever effective against Hanoi.
The Bombing stopped in January 1973 when North Vietnam, the Viet Cong, South Vietnam, and the United States signed the Paris Peace Accord (not a bipartisan law). In the Accord, North Vietnam and the Viet Cong agreed to stop all aggression if we would stop bombing them to oblivion. The Accord also contained a provision that the United States would continue to arm the South Vietnamese and replace their weapons - bullet for bullet, aircraft for aircraft, etc... so long as they were using them in defense against aggression from the North.

In January 1975, a Democrat Congress defunded our commitment, under the Accord, and North Vietnam started invading South Vietnam again.


The US was done with Vietnam, and the US lost. Trying to prop up the South with some supplies wasn't going to work.
I will agree the United States had no stomach to go back to Vietnam -- 2 years after we had secured the peace but, Democrats only made that question relevant to Gerald Ford by closing the purse on our commitment to continue supporting the South with military hardware.

[DarrinS]

Bob McCulloch should be charged with accessory to murder after the fact...his performance with the jury was pathetic. He ignored evidence that could have convicted Darren Wilson and then lied about other evidence that he used to justify murder. He is an accessory to murder.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

The Bombing stopped in January 1973 when North Vietnam, the Viet Cong, South Vietnam, and the United States signed the Paris Peace Accord (not a bipartisan law). In the Accord, North Vietnam and the Viet Cong agreed to stop all aggression if we would stop bombing them to oblivion. The Accord also contained a provision that the United States would continue to arm the South Vietnamese and replace their weapons - bullet for bullet, aircraft for aircraft, etc... so long as they were using them in defense against aggression from the North.

In January 1975, a Democrat Congress defunded our commitment, under the Accord, and North Vietnam started invading South Vietnam again.The South also agreed to stop fighting -- but didn't.

The only thing that was really honored in that Accord was the withdrawal of the Americans -- and that was the guarantee the south would fall.


I will agree the United States had no stomach to go back to Vietnam -- 2 years after we had secured the peace but, Democrats only made that question relevant to Gerald Ford by closing the purse on our commitment to continue supporting the South with military hardware.lol secured peace

No peace was secured. No need to lie about that.

[Nbadan]

Shit...should have started a Vietnam thread...

[Yonivore]

Bob McCulloch should be charged with accessory to murder after the fact...his performance with the jury was pathetic. He ignored evidence that could have convicted Darren Wilson and then lied about other evidence that he used to justify murder. He is an accessory to murder.
This I gotta hear.

What evidence did McCullough ignore and about what evidence did he lie?

[TheSanityAnnex]

This I gotta hear.

What evidence did McCullough ignore and about what evidence did he lie?

He made the witnesses lie of course.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Shit...should have started a Vietnam thread...

Chumpdumper would have loved it.

[boutons_deux]

This I gotta hear.

What evidence did McCullough ignore and about what evidence did he lie?

Lawrence O'Donnell Tue night DESTROYED a WaPo puff job on Fergie prosecutors, with TONS of direct quotes from grand jury transcripts. The prosecution, just like FL's FZ trial, misconducted itself, trying the victim while defending the killer.

[spurraider21]

^werent u the guy who said "i hope wilson goes to prison for life" before any of the facts of the case were known?

[boutons_deux]

^werent u the guy who said "i hope wilson goes to prison for life" before any of the facts of the case were known?

maybe, murder of unarmed US citizen by dickless cop would be usually life, no?

Witness #10 is what the prosecution used as main MOST CREDIBLE witness, but prosecution didn't point out that witness #10 changed his story dramatically, from being fucking 300 ft away 2 weeks after the murder and then to being "only" 150 ft away during the GJ testimony, and that #10 did repeatedly said he wasn't sure what he saw, but the prosecution HARPED on the "fact" the other witnesses against Wilson changed their testimony.

Brown was convicted and murdered without trial, Wilson was whitewashed.

[Yonivore]

Lawrence O'Donnell Tue night DESTROYED a WaPo puff job on Fergie prosecutors, with TONS of direct quotes from grand jury transcripts. The prosecution, just like FL's FZ trial, misconducted itself, trying the victim while defending the killer.
Give me the most egregious example, Boutons.

[boutons_deux]

Give me the most egregious example, Boutons.

go see the LO'D video

[Yonivore]

maybe, murder of unarmed US citizen by dickless cop would be usually life, no?

Witness #10 is what the prosecution used as main MOST CREDIBLE witness, but prosecution didn't point out that witness #10 changed his story dramatically, from being fucking 300 ft away 2 weeks after the murder and then to being "only" 150 ft away during the GJ testimony, and that #10 did repeatedly said he wasn't sure what he saw, but the prosecution HARPED on the "fact" the other witnesses against Wilson changed their testimony.

Brown was convicted and murdered without trial, Wilson was whitewashed.
You act as though unarmed people are incapable of violence.

[DarrinS]

Lawrence O'Donnell Tue night DESTROYED a WaPo puff job on Fergie prosecutors, with TONS of direct quotes from grand jury transcripts. The prosecution, just like FL's FZ trial, misconducted itself, trying the victim while defending the killer.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

You act as though unarmed people are incapable of violence.
From 150 feet?

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't particularly care whether Wilson was indicted or not.

I do think (as I've said before) that there are pretty legitimate questions about the way the prosecutor made the grand jury proceedings into a quasi-trial rather than a typical grand jury proceeding (a procedure that isn't likely followed in any other case in that jurisdiction). I get that those who support Wilson think that the issues with the grand jury proceedings are ridiculous, but I think there are serious questions about why the sort of procedural due process afforded to Wilson in that context exceeded the sort of procedural due process that would likely have been afforded to Brown had he been arrested and not killed.

I also think that there are legitimate policy questions raised by the Brown/Wilson incident concerning the extent to which police officers in situations in which they may be justified in defending themselves resort quickly to lethal force rather than attempting to incapacitate suspects with lesser means. The goal should be arrest and when lethal force is used, the effort should be to subdue not kill.

I also don't doubt that there's increased scrutiny of African Americans by police in just about any context. I, of course, have no way of knowing this myself, but I read too many anecdotes about it from sources with no clear need to exaggerate to think that it's some wholly imagined problem.

[spurraider21]

Brown was convicted and murdered without trial, Wilson was whitewashed.
this is a myth being propogated... you don't even have to be "guilty" of anything. a police can be justified in shooting somebody as long as there is reasonable fear and need for it, even if no crime was ultimately committed

[boutons_deux]

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/)

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fjs10st.pdf), U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them.

Wilson’s case was heard in state court, not federal, so the numbers aren’t directly comparable. Unlike in federal court, most states, including Missouri, allow prosecutors to bring charges via a preliminary hearing in front of a judge instead of through a grand jury indictment. That means many routine cases never go before a grand jury. Still, legal experts agree that, at any level, it is extremely rare for prosecutors to fail to win an indictment.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/

prosecutor was ACTUALLY an exonerator defending the murderer while convicting the executed big, bad, grunting, black demon.

[Yonivore]

From 150 feet?
Just so I understand your position; are you suggesting that, in spite of forensic evidence to the contrary, officer Wilson and Mike Brown didn't wrestle for control of the officer's service weapon, while Brown was leaning through the window of his patrol vehicle, and during which Brown received a contact gunshot wound to his thumb?

Are you also suggesting, counter to the forensic evidence and corroborating witness statements, Mike Brown was not only facing Officer Wilson when he was shot but, that he was charging at the officer as if he were going to tackle him?

Just checking.

[boutons_deux]

Just so I understand your position; are you suggesting that, in spite of forensic evidence to the contrary, officer Wilson and Mike Brown didn't wrestle for control of the officer's service weapon, while Brown was leaning through the window of his patrol vehicle, and during which Brown received a contact gunshot wound to his thumb?

Are you also suggesting, counter to the forensic evidence and corroborating witness statements, Mike Brown was not only facing Officer Wilson when he was shot but, that he was charging at the officer as if he were going to tackle him?

Just checking.

No, not suggesting that.

after that supposed through-the-window altercation, Brown started to flee and was executed by bullets at some unknown distance by the panicked, sadistic cop.

[Yonivore]

No, not suggesting that.

after that supposed through-the-window altercation, Brown started to flee and was executed by bullets at some unknown distance by the panicked, sadistic cop.
Forensics, and witnesses that corroborate that evidence, disagree.

[boutons_deux]

Forensics, and witnesses that corroborate that evidence, disagree.

pussy eater endorses the exonerator's Kangaroo court.

[Yonivore]

pussy eater endorses the exonerator's Kangaroo court.
Absent any credible evidence to the contrary, what should I believe?

[Trill Clinton]

cenk has been spot on lately. props to dude for calling out out the bullshit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Mgum60VGg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJA2Z7azN5Q

[spurraider21]

lol young turks
lol naming their show after a genocidal regime
lol equivalent of having a talk show called "nazi Germans"

[ChumpDumper]

Just so I understand your position; are you suggesting that, in spite of forensic evidence to the contrary, officer Wilson and Mike Brown didn't wrestle for control of the officer's service weapon, while Brown was leaning through the window of his patrol vehicle, and during which Brown received a contact gunshot wound to his thumb?

Are you also suggesting, counter to the forensic evidence and corroborating witness statements, Mike Brown was not only facing Officer Wilson when he was shot but, that he was charging at the officer as if he were going to tackle him?

Just checking.I'm not suggesting anything. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was he 150 feet away when fatally shot?

Just checking.

[boutons_deux]

Huckabee: 'Incredibly Dangerous' For Congressmen, Rams Players To Use 'Hands Up, Don't Shoot' Gesture

“This is not only foolish and dangerous but it is really on the verge of anarchy and I’m just disgusted that you have NFL players, politicians and others who no matter what the evidence reveals, no matter how many sworn testimonies show that Darren Wilson — it’s a tragedy that the young man got shot, but this is a young man who had just roughed up a store owner, just robbed a store and now he’s going after a cop’s gun and it’s a horrible thing that he was killed but he could’ve avoided that if he had behaved as something other than a thug,” he said.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/huckabee-incredibly-dangerous-congressmen-rams-players-use-hands-dont-shoot-gesture

sworn testimonies! evidence! :lol

dickless, sadistic cops execute n!gg@s without trial. We don't need no steenkin evidence, testimonies!

[spurraider21]

so you want to disregard evidence and testimony while bashing the legal system. ok.

[boutons_deux]

http://otherwords.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/prejudicial-system-cartoon-600x421.jpg

[boutons_deux]

so you want to disregard evidence and testimony while bashing the legal system. ok.

that was a Kangaroo court show trial of Brown, not a prosecutor seeking an indictment of his buddy Wilson.

[spurraider21]

that was a Kangaroo court show trial of Brown, not a prosecutor seeking an indictment of his buddy Wilson.
irrelevant to my point. why do you think forensic evidence and witness testimony should be disregarded?

for the record, i thought it would make more sense if it went to trial, but based on everything we've heard, there was about a 0% chance of conviction anyway. the prosecution could have done a better job in gunning for a trial, sure.

but again, my point is why you seem to completely ignore the evidence and witness testimony.

[boutons_deux]

a cop's ILLEGAL chokehold executed a black guy selling cigarettes. no charges

[spurraider21]

why are you changing the topic from brown to another case? we're talking about brown. this thread is about ferguson.

why do you completely disregard the forensic evidence as well as witness testimony. what else could you possibly go with in court?

[TheSanityAnnex]

that was a Kangaroo court show trial of Brown, not a prosecutor seeking an indictment of his buddy Wilson.

It never should have even gone to a grand jury after all the witnesses came forward with the truth. McColluch's hand was forced by the racist blacks and race baiters like you.

Stop ignoring what actually happened and read the testimonies.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370562-14-43984-care-main.html

The witness intimidation is sickening and a young man is dead because he didn't stick to the hands up don't shoot lie.

[spurraider21]

he doesn't care. this is no race-bait/political agenda behind that murder. black lives matter... unless taken by other black life. or will boutons take the moral high road?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Having trouble deciding which is funnier, boutons continuing to deny or FuzzyLumpkins continuing to avoid this thread.

[Yonivore]

I'm not suggesting anything. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Was he 150 feet away when fatally shot?

Just checking.
No, he was less than 10 feet from the shooter when he received the fatal shot to the top of his head. This is based on the location of the body and the location of the shell casings.

[ChumpDumper]

So he pursued Brown that 150 feet?

[Yonivore]

cenk has been spot on lately. props to dude for calling out out the bullshit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Mgum60VGg
People are entitled to their own opinions but, not their own set of facts. Both videos are fact-challenged.

Zimmerman didn't chase Martin down. He attempted to follow him and, when he lost sight of him and was on his way back to his vehicle, he was attacked.

Wilson didn't shoot Brown because he feared a black man. If that were the case, why did he stop in the first place? No, Wilson shot Brown because Brown had assaulted him once, almost gaining control of this service weapon, and was, again, charging at him to presumably assault him again and, yes, Officer Wilson, who was about 90lbs lighter than Brown and just 1" taller, feared that he would lose his life if Brown reached him and assaulted him again.

I'm not sure what Emmett Till has to do with any of this.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJA2Z7azN5Q
Prosecutors are not required to bring to a Grand Jury cases they do not believe warrant indictment. Prosecutor McCullough has been very up front about why he brought the case to the Grand Jury, at all. It wasn't because he thought a crime had been committed by the officer (he didn't); it was because of the controversy and threats to public peace that were being threatened if he didn't. So, he did. Yes, a prosecutor can get a ham sandwich indicted, if he chooses; but, McCullough didn't want to indict this ham sandwich.

He didn't stand in the way of indictment -- presenting every shred of evidence he had accumulated on the case and presenting the Grand Jury with the five indictments that were available to them, under the circumstances. He didn't keep anything from the Grand Jury but, suggesting he is somehow to blame when he, himself, did not believe a crime had been committed is silly. Under normal circumstances, he wouldn't have been obligated to present anything to the Grand Jury.

[Yonivore]

So he pursued Brown that 150 feet?
No, at some point, Brown turned around and started running back at Officer Wilson.

According to witness testimony and corroborating forensic evidence, at the scene; Officer Wilson began pursuing Brown and had made it about 150 from his patrol vehicle when Brown stopped (at about 170 feet from the patrol vehicle), turned around, and began charging back at Officer Wilson. After Brown began charging at him, Officer Wilson yelled for him to stop and when he didn't, he opened fire, taking several shots at Brown (some of which hit him and some of which did not). Brown stopped momentarily and Officer Wilson stopped shooting. Brown resumed his charge and Wilson, backpedaling, resumed firing and yelling for him to stop. From the last estimated shooting position (based on the location of the expelled casings) to Brown's body was approximately 10 feet.

[ChumpDumper]

No, at some point, Brown turned around and started running back at Officer Wilson.

According to witness testimony and corroborating forensic evidence, at the scene; Officer Wilson began pursuing Brown and had made it about 150 from his patrol vehicle when Brown stopped (at about 170 feet from the patrol vehicle), turned around, and began charging back at Officer Wilson. After Brown began charging at him, Officer Wilson yelled for him to stop and when he didn't, he opened fire, taking several shots at Brown (some of which hit him and some of which did not). Brown stopped momentarily and Officer Wilson stopped shooting. Brown resumed his charge and Wilson, backpedaling, resumed firing and yelling for him to stop. From the last estimated shooting position (based on the location of the expelled casings) to Brown's body was approximately 10 feet.So you just confirmed that Wilson pursued Brown that 150 feet.

Thanks.

[Yonivore]

So you just confirmed that Wilson pursued Brown that 150 feet.

Thanks.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your trap (I thought you were trying to suggest he shot Brown from 150 feet away). Yeah, he pursued Brown. What's your point? I don't think there's been any disagreement that Wilson exited his patrol vehicle and gave chase.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your trap (I thought you were trying to suggest he shot Brown from 150 feet away). Yeah, he pursued Brown. What's your point? I don't think there's been any disagreement that Wilson exited his patrol vehicle and gave chase.The point is he pursued Brown 150 feet.

Thanks again.

[tlongII]

So you just confirmed that Wilson pursued Brown that 150 feet.

Thanks.

Why wouldn't a police officer pursue a suspected felon for at least 150 feet?

[ChumpDumper]

Why wouldn't a police officer pursue a suspected felon for at least 150 feet?I didn't say he wouldn't.

Thanks for the comment.

[Yonivore]

The point is he pursued Brown 150 feet.

Thanks again.
Why is that relevant? I didn't think it was a point of contention.

[ChumpDumper]

Why is that relevant? I didn't think it was a point of contention.Is it not relevant?

Wow.

[tlongII]

Is it not relevant?

Wow.

It is not relevant.

[ChumpDumper]

It is not relevant.Why not?

[Yonivore]

Is it not relevant?

Wow.
I didn't say it wasn't relevant, I'm asking why your focus on it is relevant. I didn't think there was any disagreement over where Brown and Wilson were when he was shot.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't say it wasn't relevant, I'm asking why your focus on it is relevant. I didn't think there was any disagreement over where Brown and Wilson were when he was shot.So you think it's relevant.

Thanks.

[Yonivore]

So you think it's relevant.

Thanks.
So, explain to me why this point is so important.

[ChumpDumper]

So, explain to me why this point is so important.I didn't say it was so important.

But you agree it's relevant, so cool.

[Yonivore]

I didn't say it was so important.

But you agree it's relevant, so cool.

Okay.

[Ignignokt]

It's not relevant actually, Chumpdumper is just a sociopathic moron who doesn't give a shit two ways about the case, only to earn a digital Spurstalk Debate Ribbon. dude is a 40 yr old NEET and quite pathetic.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not relevant actuallyWhy not?

[Ignignokt]

Why not?

It actually is, but your original point was that Brown was shot from 150 ft. That is not factual.

But not like you give a shit about the actual outcome. You're quite ignorant of the facts as evidenced by responding to Yoni's assertion that Brown was a threat, in which you said "from 150 Ft".

Now that you been shown to be a moron, and ignorant of the fact, you chose to rely on the fact that the "pursuit" was 150 ft.

What you haven't discredited was the fact of the scuffle happening in the vehicle followed by the pursuit. The autopsy evidence proves Wilson's testimony, and cop's jobs are to chase violent criminals and apprehend them.

Until you address the actual facts, come at me.

[ChumpDumper]

It actually isWhy did you say it wasn't?
but your original point was that Brown was shot from 150 ft. That is not factual.I was asking a question. Which was answered. Not stating a fact.

Thanks for your continued interest in me.

[Yonivore]

Why did you say it wasn't?I was asking a question. Which was answered. Not stating a fact.

Thanks for your continued interest in me.
What was your interest in asking the question?

[Ignignokt]

Why did you say it wasn't? I said, that you don't actually give two shits. That's different from saying the material facts are not relevant.

RIF

[ChumpDumper]

What was your interest in asking the question?Just wondering.

[ChumpDumper]

I said, that you don't actually give two shits. That's different from saying the material facts are not relevant.

RIF

It's not relevant actually
crofl

[tlongII]

Why not?

Because it demonstrates that Wilson was doing his job.

[ChumpDumper]

Because it demonstrates that Wilson was doing his job.That would make it relevant.

[tlongII]

That would make it relevant.

It is not relevant to the grand jury's decision to not indict him.

[ChumpDumper]

It is not relevant to the grand jury's decision to not indict him.You just showed how it would be relevant.

[tlongII]

You just showed how it would be relevant.

Do you think the grand jury's decision would have been to indict him if he had not pursued?

[spurraider21]

So he pursued Brown that 150 feet?
what do you think?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you think the grand jury's decision would have been to indict him if he had not pursued?I don't know any of those people.

[Yonivore]

Just wondering.

You didn't already know?

[ChumpDumper]

You didn't already know?Should I have?

[Ignignokt]

Misquoting is telling them

So Why did you say he was shot at 150 ft?

[tlongII]

I don't know any of those people.

Right. I think you know the answer to my question.

[ChumpDumper]

what do you think?The testimony said he did.

I believe it.

[ChumpDumper]

So Why did you say he was shot at 150 ft?I didn't. I asked a question. RIF.


Right. I think you know the answer to my question.The answer is I don't know.


Because I don't.

[Ignignokt]

The testimony said he did.

I believe it.

lol THE TESTIMONY

[Yonivore]

Should I have?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking if you already knew and, if not, why would you ask a political forum something that readily available from more direct sources.

Here, knock yourself out: http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_documents/ferguson-shooting/

It's all in there.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't knowGreat.

[ChumpDumper]

lol THE TESTIMONYAnd the forensic evidence, sure.

All of it.

No reason not to believe it.

[Yonivore]

The testimony said he did.

I believe it.
Who testified that Michael Brown was shot from 150 feet away?

[ChumpDumper]

Who testified that Michael Brown was shot from 150 feet away?No one.

I believe I misread that other question. I'm fielding a bunch at once.

Sorry.

[tlongII]

I didn't. I asked a question. RIF.

The answer is I don't know.


Because I don't.

Well I do, and it wouldn't have.

[ChumpDumper]

No one.

I believe I misread that other question. I'm fielding a bunch at once.

Sorry.Actually I didn't misread the question.

I was asked if I thought Wilson pursued Brown that 150 feet.

I said yes.

[ChumpDumper]

Well I do, and it wouldn't have.It's great that you have an opinion.

[CosmicCowboy]

I seriously never got the argument that just because the shooting was 150 feet from the car it must have been a bad shoot. Even the hostile witnesses confirmed that Brown had scuffled with the officer in the car and a shot was fired in the car. Forensic evidence found powder burns on Browns hand and browns blood on the officers gun, the officers clothes, and inside the door of the car. (the tip of Browns finger had been grazed by the bullet when the gun discharged)

So there had already been an attack on the officer, a shot had already been fired...

So the officer was just supposed to let Brown leave the scene?

[Yonivore]

So, let's try again, without all the coy back and forth. This is what started this asinine exchange.


You act as though unarmed people are incapable of violence.
To which you interjected,


From 150 feet?

To which I attempted to check my understanding of what you were suggesting

Just so I understand your position; are you suggesting that, in spite of forensic evidence to the contrary, officer Wilson and Mike Brown didn't wrestle for control of the officer's service weapon, while Brown was leaning through the window of his patrol vehicle, and during which Brown received a contact gunshot wound to his thumb?

Are you also suggesting, counter to the forensic evidence and corroborating witness statements, Mike Brown was not only facing Officer Wilson when he was shot but, that he was charging at the officer as if he were going to tackle him?

Just checking.
And, it went downhill from there.

If you're sincerely asking if Michael Brown was shot from 150 feet away; the answer is no and, to my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that.

If you're sincerely asking if Officer Wilson pursued Brown for 150 feet, before the altercation that resulted in his shooting took place, the answer appears to be yes (as suggested by witness statements corroborated by forensic evidence at the scene). It appears Officer Wilson made it about 150 feet from his patrol vehicle and Michael Brown made it another 20 feet beyond that before the final sequence of events that resulted in his death began.

Again, why are you unable to discern these facts on your own?

[ChumpDumper]

So, let's try again, without all the coy back and forth. This is what started this asinine exchange.


To which you interjected,



To which I attempted to check my understanding of what you were suggesting

And, it went downhill from there.

If you're sincerely asking if Michael Brown was shot from 150 feet away; the answer is no and, to my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that.

If you're sincerely asking if Officer Wilson pursued Brown for 150 feet, before the altercation that resulted in his shooting took place, the answer appears to be yes (as suggested by witness statements corroborated by forensic evidence at the scene). It appears Officer Wilson made it about 150 feet from his patrol vehicle and Michael Brown made it another 20 feet beyond that before the final sequence of events that resulted in his death began.

Again, why are you unable to discern these facts on your own?Just as easy to ask you.

Thanks again.

[spurraider21]

The testimony said he did.

I believe it.
so what are you getting at?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Just as easy to ask you.

Thanks again.

Now that you've read the witness testimonies do you think Wilson was justified in using deadly force?

[rogues]

Yonivore just eurostepping niggas, tbh..

[Yonivore]

Yonivore just eurostepping niggas, tbh..

What does that even mean?

[Ignignokt]

Chump read no testimonies, since first of all he says it was THE testimony, which if he's literate and not a subhuman it implies one testimony. There was actually multiple testimonies in court, but that just illustrates he's a moron.

Furthermore, no evidence proved MB was shot from 150 ft. The evidence proves differently as well as the testimony of 10 witnesses who were african american that confirmed officer wilson's testimony.

Don't argue further until he actually addresses the court's mulitple TESTIMONIES and actual evidence. Other wise he's claiming shallow victory over a material fact that no one denied. 150 ft? say's what? That he was shot from 150 ft, or that he was pursued 150ft? 150 ft wihtout context says shit. 150 ft could be the length of the total dicks chump takes yearly. Doesn't indict Officer Wilson or exonerate him.

cliff notes:
Chumpdumper once again brings no argument and claims myopic internet victories despite proving he's an ignoramus.

[rogues]

What does that even mean?
A eurostep, my nigga..a eurostep..

[Ignignokt]

A eurostep, my nigga..a eurostep..

it's a compliment.

[ChumpDumper]

I claimed no victory.

You seem upset by my mere presence though.

[Yonivore]

A eurostep, my nigga..a eurostep..
Well, that helped ... not. But, thanks for the effort.

[Yonivore]

it's a compliment.

Again, thanks, I think.

[Yonivore]

I claimed no victory.

You seem upset by my mere presence though.
You're just annoying, Chump. Nothing we won't get through, though.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump read no testimonies, since first of all he says it was THE testimony, which if he's literate and not a subhuman it implies one testimony. There was actually multiple testimonies in court, but that just illustrates he's a moron.

Furthermore, no evidence proved MB was shot from 150 ft. The evidence proves differently as well as the testimony of 10 witnesses who were african american that confirmed officer wilson's testimony.

Don't argue further until he actually addresses the court's mulitple TESTIMONIES and actual evidence. Other wise he's claiming shallow victory over a material fact that no one denied. 150 ft? say's what? That he was shot from 150 ft, or that he was pursued 150ft? 150 ft wihtout context says shit. 150 ft could be the length of the total dicks chump takes yearly. Doesn't indict Officer Wilson or exonerate him.

cliff notes:
Chumpdumper once again brings no argument and claims myopic internet victories despite proving he's an ignoramus.Argue further?

There was no argument.

I asked some questions.

You really seem upset.

[ChumpDumper]

You're just annoying, Chump. Nothing we won't get through, though.Eh, you're all just bristling when I post.

It's kind of funny actually.

[ChumpDumper]

Now that you've read the witness testimonies do you think Wilson was justified in using deadly force?Legally I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to shoot a guy.

In this case? Maybe there was a different way of going about it, maybe not.

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

[TheSanityAnnex]

Legally I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to shoot a guy.

In this case? Maybe there was a different way of going about it, maybe not.

In your opinion was Wilson justified in using deadly force, yes or no?

[Yonivore]

Eh, you're all just bristling when I post.

It's kind of funny actually.
Bristling? No. But, I agree, it is funny that anyone gives you any attention. Some day, we'll learn, I suppose.

In the meantime, glad to amuse.

[Ignignokt]

Legally I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to shoot a guy.

In this case? Maybe there was a different way of going about it, maybe not.

Did the evidence support that officer wilson was shot from 150 ft?

[DarrinS]

Meh, just another case to put on Sharpton's sad resume.

[ChumpDumper]

In your opinion was Wilson justified in using deadly force, yes or no?Legally, according to the applicable laws and regulations?

Sure, one can always find a reason.

I will allow for the possibility it could have been handled another way, but that's all conjecture.


Did the evidence support that officer wilson was shot from 150 ft?Who made that claim?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Legally, according to the applicable laws and regulations?

Sure, one can always find a reason.

I will allow for the possibility it could have been handled another way, but that's all conjecture.

What other option did Wilson have after Brown punched him, tried to disarm him, and charged him?

[spurraider21]

What other option did Wilson have after Brown punched him, tried to disarm him, and charged him?
He could have asked nicely.

[ChumpDumper]

What other option did Wilson have after Brown punched him, tried to disarm him, and charged him?Dunno for sure.

I just said I allow for the possibility.

I can't ask anyone to prove a negative in saying there were no other options so I'm cool with it.

[spurraider21]

Legally, according to the applicable laws and regulations?
no. i'm sure he was referring to inapplicable laws and regulations.

[Yonivore]

What other option did Wilson have after Brown punched him, tried to disarm him, and charged him?

I suppose he could have produced a red cape and pretended he was at a bull fight.

[ChumpDumper]

no. i'm sure he was referring to inapplicable laws and regulations.I made the distinction myself.

[TheSanityAnnex]

The transcripts read like a defense examination without cross.What did you think of the witness testimony transcripts?

[boutons_deux]

What did you think of the witness testimony transcripts?

lots of ambiguity, and we know Wilson was coached for weeks and was fucking lying ( demon! grunting, insane, terrifying (unarmed) animal! ), is what police and police orgs do, The Blue Wall. Wilson trained to do his job, killin' n!gg@s.

If Brown had been white, he'd be alive.

[Yonivore]

lots of ambiguity, and we know Wilson was coached for weeks and was fucking lying ( demon! grunting, insane, terrifying (unarmed) animal! ), is what police and police orgs do, The Blue Wall. Wilson trained to do his job, killin' n!gg@s.

If Brown had been white, he'd be alive.
Funny how his testimony matched that of several witnesses (black, no less) whose statements were taken contemporaneous to the event and the forensic evidence.

[boutons_deux]

What other option did Wilson have after Brown punched him, tried to disarm him, and charged him?

How about: got in his car, rolled back, called for help (he was so afeared!)? It's not as if 300 pound, probably well known, injured black man in a small town was going to disappear.

The first and only and immediate (as in "ASAP") option for white cops, as they are formally trained and informally, culturally trained, seems to be killin' n!gg@s

[Ignignokt]

Legally, according to the applicable laws and regulations?

Sure, one can always find a reason.

I will allow for the possibility it could have been handled another way, but that's all conjecture.

Who made that claim?

you did.

[ChumpDumper]

you did.Nope.

[boutons_deux]

Funny how his testimony matched that of several witnesses (black, no less) whose statements were taken contemporaneous to the event and the forensic evidence.

there was plenty of contradiction, ambiguity, and TESTIMONY changing, esp in the exonerators's CRITICAL witness #10

[Yonivore]

there was plenty of contradiction, ambiguity, and TESTIMONY changing, esp in the exonerators's CRITICAL witness #10
But, not in Witness #34.

And, there was more contradiction, ambiguity, and out-and-out fabrication in much of the testimony that tended to not align with Officer Wilson's version of events. So, there's that.

When you say "plenty," just exactly what did witness #10 change?

[TheSanityAnnex]

lots of ambiguity, and we know Wilson was coached for weeks and was fucking lying ( demon! grunting, insane, terrifying (unarmed) animal! ), is what police and police orgs do, The Blue Wall. Wilson trained to do his job, killin' n!gg@s.

If Brown had been white, he'd be alive.

Are you saying the multiple African American witnesses who gave the same account as Wilson also lied to protect Wilson while also endangering their own well being?

[boutons_deux]

Are you saying the multiple African American witnesses who gave the same account as Wilson also lied to protect Wilson while also endangering their own well being?

you said that, I didn't.

[TheSanityAnnex]

you said that, I didn't.

You said Wilson was coached for weeks and fucking lying, were the African American witnesses who testified and supported Wilson's account coached and lying as well?

[Ignignokt]

Nope.

Why lie? You asked Yoni if he was dangerous from 150ft. Clearly an implication that he was shot from 150 ft.

You also said you believed the testimony-singular- from the trial, when there was multiple.

Are you going to own up to your ignorance?

[ChumpDumper]

Why lie? You asked Yoni if he was dangerous from 150ft. Clearly an implication that he was shot from 150 ft.

You also said you believed the testimony-singular- from the trial, when there was multiple.

Are you going to own up to your ignorance?Testimony on the whole.

Easy concept.

I did ask about the distance because I was unclear about the entire chain of events. I still have questions but nothing anyone here could answer.

If it's really that important to you we can discuss further.

[Yonivore]

I still have questions but nothing anyone here could answer.
Lack of direct knowledge of an event has never been reason for anyone in this forum, you included, not to have an answer. Try us, Chump.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.truthdig.com/images/made/images/cartoonuploads/handsupshoot_590_432.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Lack of direct knowledge of an event has never been reason for anyone in this forum, you included, not to have an answer. Try us, Chump.An answer would require direct knowledge.

Thanks for the offer.

[Yonivore]

An answer would require direct knowledge.

Thanks for the offer.
It wasn't really an offer as much as it was an observation.

[ChumpDumper]

It wasn't really an offer as much as it was an observation.You said "try us."

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just so I understand your position; are you suggesting that, in spite of forensic evidence to the contrary, officer Wilson and Mike Brown didn't wrestle for control of the officer's service weapon, while Brown was leaning through the window of his patrol vehicle, and during which Brown received a contact gunshot wound to his thumb?

Are you also suggesting, counter to the forensic evidence and corroborating witness statements, Mike Brown was not only facing Officer Wilson when he was shot but, that he was charging at the officer as if he were going to tackle him?

Just checking.

His corpse was 150 ft away from the car door. This is not hard.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lack of direct knowledge of an event has never been reason for anyone in this forum, you included, not to have an answer. Try us, Chump.

Speak for yourself. I say that all the time.

[boutons_deux]

Officer Who Fatally Shot Tamir Rice Deemed Unfit for Duty in 2012


Timothy Loehmann criticised by small Ohio force for breaking down while handling live gun and his performance was called ‘dismal’, records show

http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-A.jpg police officer who shot a 12-year-old dead in a Cleveland park late last month had been judged unfit for police service two years earlier (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1) by a small suburban force where he worked for six months, according to records released on Wednesday.

Officer Timothy Loehmann, who killed Tamir Rice on 22 November, was specifically faulted for breaking down emotionally while handling a live gun. During a training episode at a firing range, Loehmann was reported to be “distracted and weepy” and incommunicative. “His handgun performance was dismal,” deputy chief Jim Polak of the Independence, Ohio, police department wrote in an internal memo.

The memo concludes with a recommendation that Loehmann be “released from the employment of the City of Independence”. Less than a week later, on 3 December 2012, Loehmann resigned.
In March of this year, Loehmann was hired by the Cleveland police department. It is unclear whether the department had seen the Independence memo at the time of Loehmann’s hiring.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/03/officer-who-fatally-shot-tamir-rice-had-been-judged-unfit

Apparently, a lot bad cops fired from the police end up on the sheriff's / constable's staffs.

sheriff's: Oath Keepers! the primary, supreme defenders, interpreters of the US Constitution :lol

[TheSanityAnnex]

boutons....


Are you saying the multiple African American witnesses who gave the same account as Wilson also lied to protect Wilson while also endangering their own well being?

[Yonivore]

You said "try us."
It was rhetorical.

[Yonivore]

His corpse was 150 ft away from the car door. This is not hard.
The question, "From 150 feet?" was asked after it was pointed out Officer Wilson shot Brown because he posed an immediate threat. I was merely trying to ascertain if the questioner believed Officer Wilson shot Brown from 150 feet or, if he was unaware that Brown and Wilson had been in physical contact with one another at the vehicle and were within 10 feet of one another when the fatal bullet struck Brown in the top of his head.

[Yonivore]

Officer Who Fatally Shot Tamir Rice Deemed Unfit for Duty in 2012


Timothy Loehmann criticised by small Ohio force for breaking down while handling live gun and his performance was called ‘dismal’, records show

http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-A.jpg police officer who shot a 12-year-old dead in a Cleveland park late last month had been judged unfit for police service two years earlier (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html#incart_m-rpt-1) by a small suburban force where he worked for six months, according to records released on Wednesday.

Officer Timothy Loehmann, who killed Tamir Rice on 22 November, was specifically faulted for breaking down emotionally while handling a live gun. During a training episode at a firing range, Loehmann was reported to be “distracted and weepy” and incommunicative. “His handgun performance was dismal,” deputy chief Jim Polak of the Independence, Ohio, police department wrote in an internal memo.

The memo concludes with a recommendation that Loehmann be “released from the employment of the City of Independence”. Less than a week later, on 3 December 2012, Loehmann resigned.
In March of this year, Loehmann was hired by the Cleveland police department. It is unclear whether the department had seen the Independence memo at the time of Loehmann’s hiring.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/03/officer-who-fatally-shot-tamir-rice-had-been-judged-unfit

Apparently, a lot bad cops fired from the police end up on the sheriff's / constable's staffs.

sheriff's: Oath Keepers! the primary, supreme defenders, interpreters of the US Constitution :lol



Yeah, I predict a hell of a lawsuit in Cleveland's future.

[boutons_deux]

Lawrence O’Donnell: Missouri atty. general admits Ferguson grand jury was misled

Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster (D) admitted that the grand jury in the Darren Wilson case was given misleading information regarding the use of deadly force by police, MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell reported on Wednesday.

“Among the problems that Ferguson has brought to light is the need to update Missouri’s use of deadly force statute,” Koster said in a statement read by O’Donnell. “This statute is inconsistent with the Supreme Court’s holding in Tennessee v. Garner.Consequently, it is important this statutue be amended by the Missouri legislature to incorporate the Garner decision to avoid confusion in the criminal justice system.”

O’Donnell reported last week (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/lawrence-odonnell-rips-st-louis-prosecutor-for-making-it-impossible-for-darren-wilson-to-fail/) that St. Louis County assistant district attorney Kathy Alizadeh mistakenly gave jurors a copy of a 1979 statute allowing officers to use enough force they feel is necessary “to effect the arrest or prevent the escape from custody.”

The statute had been used to justify officers shooting and killing suspects even if their lives were not in immediate danger. But, O’Donnell said at the time, Alizadeh glossed over a 1985 Supreme Court ruling rendering such statutes unconstitutional, telling the grand jury, “As far as you need to know, just don’t worry about that.” Alizadeh only informed the jury of the discrepancy less than a week before it decided not to acquit Wilson for shooting and killing 18-year-old Michael Brown this past August.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/lawrence-odonnell-missouri-atty-general-admits-ferguson-grand-jury-was-misled/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

the exonerotor's game was a sham, a GJ farce of a Kangaroo court to convict Brown while defending Wilson. hardball questions to witnesses not supporting Wilson, and softball or no questions to witnesses supporting Wilson.

[spurraider21]

its one thing to say Missouri law is outdated, but its an entirely different accusation if you say the jury was misled. it also says they were informed of it a week before their decisions, giving them plenty of time to adjust accordingly

[boutons_deux]

its one thing to say Missouri law is outdated, but its an entirely different accusation if you say the jury was misled. it also says they were informed of it a week before their decisions, giving them plenty of time to adjust accordingly

the exonerator DID NOT SPECIFY which of his instructions were WRONG

[FuzzyLumpkins]

its one thing to say Missouri law is outdated, but its an entirely different accusation if you say the jury was misled. it also says they were informed of it a week before their decisions, giving them plenty of time to adjust accordingly

You are a law student. Do they teach you how to get an indictment from a grand jury? Is what went on in those procedures different than what you were taught?

[spurraider21]

You are a law student. Do they teach you how to get an indictment from a grand jury? Is what went on in those procedures different than what you were taught?
haven't taken crim pro yet. instruction for my first sememster finishes tomorrow, i've taken torts, contracts, civ pro in addition to legal research/writing

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There was no incident report. This goes right to the heart of the Supreme Court arguments from the 5th amendment. They didn't like that such refusal could be interpreted as probable cause which it is without special protections. You won't preform your duty because you might incriminate yourself? Oh and when you do make a statement, I won't cross examine it because I have prepared what we are going to say ahead of time?

They should have a separate prosecutor investigate all police cases and remove their special privileges. We live in a police state and it is a problem.

[spurraider21]

the exonerator DID NOT SPECIFY which of his instructions were WRONG
they got the new, correct law a week before proceedings. that is all that matters. they were told only to only apply this new, correct law.

[Ignignokt]

Testimony on the whole.

Easy concept.

I did ask about the distance because I was unclear about the entire chain of events. I still have questions but nothing anyone here could answer.

If it's really that important to you we can discuss further.


The testimony as a whole agreed with officer wilson. You didn't read the testimony, nor the evidence.

[boutons_deux]

Black Lives Don't Matter

[ChumpDumper]

The testimony as a whole agreed with officer wilson. You didn't read the testimony, nor the evidence.Read enough to agree with the testimony and evidence as far as the legality of the shooting.

Sorry to disappoint you.

You've got such an axe to grind. Sound pretty bitter. What's wrong?

[Yonivore]

Lawrence O’Donnell: Missouri atty. general admits Ferguson grand jury was misled

Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster (D) admitted that the grand jury in the Darren Wilson case was given misleading information regarding the use of deadly force by police, MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell reported on Wednesday.

“Among the problems that Ferguson has brought to light is the need to update Missouri’s use of deadly force statute,” Koster said in a statement read by O’Donnell. “This statute is inconsistent with the Supreme Court’s holding in Tennessee v. Garner.Consequently, it is important this statutue be amended by the Missouri legislature to incorporate the Garner decision to avoid confusion in the criminal justice system.”

O’Donnell reported last week (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/lawrence-odonnell-rips-st-louis-prosecutor-for-making-it-impossible-for-darren-wilson-to-fail/) that St. Louis County assistant district attorney Kathy Alizadeh mistakenly gave jurors a copy of a 1979 statute allowing officers to use enough force they feel is necessary “to effect the arrest or prevent the escape from custody.”

The statute had been used to justify officers shooting and killing suspects even if their lives were not in immediate danger. But, O’Donnell said at the time, Alizadeh glossed over a 1985 Supreme Court ruling rendering such statutes unconstitutional, telling the grand jury, “As far as you need to know, just don’t worry about that.” Alizadeh only informed the jury of the discrepancy less than a week before it decided not to acquit Wilson for shooting and killing 18-year-old Michael Brown this past August.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/lawrence-odonnell-missouri-atty-general-admits-ferguson-grand-jury-was-misled/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

the exonerotor's game was a sham, a GJ farce of a Kangaroo court to convict Brown while defending Wilson. hardball questions to witnesses not supporting Wilson, and softball or no questions to witnesses supporting Wilson.



O'Donnell has already been shown to be an idiot for making this assertion. (Not that he hasn't confirmed his idiocy in many other instances before this.)

[Yonivore]

Black Lives Don't Matter
Any more than white lives matter, when that life chooses to assault a police officer, try to disarm him and murder him, and then take a second stab at assault by running at him full speed.

[Yonivore]

Read enough to agree with the testimony and evidence as far as the legality of the shooting.

Sorry to disappoint you.

You've got such an axe to grind. Sound pretty bitter. What's wrong?
You're just very coy in your responses. Why not declare this up front? You're not going to disappoint anyone. I suspect you just enjoy baiting people into soliciting your opinion; that it makes you feel important somehow. But, realistically, only you know why you do what you do in the forum.

[Yonivore]

For the Lawrence O'Donnell fans:

No, Prosecution did not Mislead #Ferguson Grand Jury into Erroneous Decision (http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/11/no-prosecution-did-not-mislead-ferguson-grand-jury-into-erroneous-decision/)


Lawrence O’Donnell ignores that Darren Wilson’s strong claim of lawful self-defense was more than sufficient to prevent indictment

Tennessee v. Garner limits the use of deadly force in arresting nondangerous suspects, NOT demonstrably dangerous suspects such as Michael Brown. (http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/11/yet-another-reason-lawrence-odonnell-is-wrong-on-ferguson-grand-jury-lawrence/)


Tennessee v. Garner limits the use of deadly force in arresting nondangerous suspects, NOT demonstrably dangerous suspects such as Michael Brown.

[Ignignokt]

Read enough to agree with the testimony and evidence as far as the legality of the shooting.

Sorry to disappoint you.

You've got such an axe to grind. Sound pretty bitter. What's wrong?

lol such a narcissist.

better to switch sides before admitting you were wrong.

Thought nobody would notice?

You may not be a forever alone david kimbrell, but you sure give him a run for the money.

[ChumpDumper]

You're just very coy in your responses. Why not declare this up front? You're not going to disappoint anyone. I suspect you just enjoy baiting people into soliciting your opinion; that it makes you feel important somehow. But, realistically, only you know why you do what you do in the forum.Nothing I do here makes me feel important, but it is really interesting seeing your initial reactions right off the bat, as well as your continued complaining after the fact.


lol such a narcissist.

better to switch sides before admitting you were wrong.

Thought nobody would notice?

You may not be a forever alone david kimbrell, but you sure give him a run for the money.So you didn't say why you are so bitter. Are you embarrassed by something that you have to lash out all the time with personal attacks you think will have an effect?

Legally I never thought there was much of an issue after the initial confrontation. I did and do have questions about the stuff that came after, but professed police fear and the Radio Raheem syndrome pretty much close the book on any criminal prosecution everywhere.

Sorry there isn't much more to it.

[Ignignokt]

Nothing I do here makes me feel important, but it is really interesting seeing your initial reactions right off the bat, as well as your continued complaining after the fact.

So you didn't say why you are so bitter. Are you embarrassed by something that you have to lash out all the time with personal attacks you think will have an effect?

Legally I never thought there was much of an issue after the initial confrontation. I did and do have questions about the stuff that came after, but professed police fear and the Radio Raheem syndrome pretty much close the book on any criminal prosecution everywhere.

Sorry there isn't much more to it.

whatever queer

[ChumpDumper]

whatever queerSo bitter.

I just asked why.

Might help you work through whatever is bothering you.

[Yonivore]

Nothing I do here makes me feel important, but it is really interesting seeing your initial reactions right off the bat, as well as your continued complaining after the fact.
I would be interested to know which reactions you found interesting and please point to my complaining.

[ChumpDumper]

I would be interested to know which reactions you found interestingyour digging in.
and please point to my complaining.http://inanities.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/point-finger2.jpg
Thataway!

[Yonivore]

your digging in.
How so? I'm just trying to engage you in a discussion. That you're tedious and tend to play coy and evasive isn't a reflection on my position. However, I do concede it reflects on my sanity for continuing to try and get you to talk about an issue as opposed to talking about our personalities.

http://inanities.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/point-finger2.jpg
Thataway!
Interesting definition of complaining.

[ChumpDumper]

How so? I'm just trying to engage you in a discussion. That you're tedious and tend to play coy and evasive isn't a reflection on my position. However, I do concede it reflects on my sanity for continuing to try and get you to talk about an issue as opposed to talking about our personalities.Well, keep talking about my personality. That'll fix everything.


Interesting definition of complaining.You asked me to point it out.

[Yonivore]

Well, keep talking about my personality. That'll fix everything.
No, let's get back on topic if you're up for it.


You asked me to point it out.
Well, it wasn't helpful in my being able to determine what you consider a complaint unless you're suggesting everything I post is one. In that case, I would ask you to define complain although, I'm more interested in knowing why you believe the racial component to Mr. Garner's arrest is any more relevant than the color of his shoes.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, it wasn't helpful in my being able to determine what you consider a complaint unless you're suggesting everything I post is one. In that case, I would ask you to define complain although, I'm more interested in knowing why you believe the racial component to Mr. Garner's arrest is any more relevant than the color of his shoes.I already said I was fine with saying the cop was a shitty cop without involving race. What more do you want?

[Yonivore]

I already said I was fine with saying the cop was a shitty cop without involving race. What more do you want?
I want to know why you believe race, as a component, is self evident in the arrest of Mr. Garner. I suppose you've confused yourself with all the irrelevant nonsense but, that was what we were originally discussing.

[ChumpDumper]

I want to know why you believe race, as a component, is self evident in the arrest of Mr. Garner. I suppose you've confused yourself with all the irrelevant nonsense but, that was what we were originally discussing.As you originally defined component before moving the goalpost, race is a component.

You then moved the goalpost and I said fine, dude is just a shitty cop even without your newly defined component.

What part do you not understand?

[Yonivore]

As you originally defined component before moving the goalpost, race is a component.
Link or quote the post where I failed to qualify my use of the word component as relating to the arrest.


You then moved the goalpost and I said fine, dude is just a shitty cop even without your newly defined component.
Again, I reject your assertion I changed my position any.


What part do you not understand?
The part where you said race was a self-evident component. That's what I'm trying to get you to answer.

[ChumpDumper]

Link or quote the post where I failed to qualify my use of the word component as relating to the arrest.Already done.



Again, I reject your assertion I changed my position any.Reject away.



The part where you said race was a self-evident component. That's what I'm trying to get you to answer.Already did.

[Yonivore]

Already done.
So, you should be able to do it again, I missed it in all the nonsensical back and forth.


Reject away.
Just did.


Already did.
Again, I missed it. You should be able to articulate the point again unless, of course, it is as I suspect, you just want to be tedious and annoying and aren't actually interested in a discussion.

[ChumpDumper]

So, you should be able to do it again, I missed it in all the nonsensical back and forth.


Just did.


Again, I missed it. You should be able to articulate the point again unless, of course, it is as I suspect, you just want to be tedious and annoying and aren't actually interested in a discussion.I'm trying to figure out why you want to keep talking about race when I already stopped.

Why do you want to keep talking about race?

[Yonivore]

I'm trying to figure out why you want to keep talking about race when I already stopped.

Why do you want to keep talking about race?
So, it is as I suspect.

[ChumpDumper]

So, it is as I suspect.Nope.

But you really want to continue talking about race after all.

Go figure.

[Yonivore]

Nope.

But you really want to continue talking about race after all.

Go figure.
Actually, all I wanted was for you to respond to the question of why you believe race is a self-evident component in the arrest of Mr. Garner. But, we don't have to talk about it anymore, if you don't want to.

You will say, "I've already done that," and I will say, "I missed it," and you will continue to be tedious and annoying. So, never mind...I'm really no longer interested in your opinion on the matter.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, all I wanted was for you to respond to the question of why you believe race is a self-evident component in the arrest of Mr. Garner. But, we don't have to talk about it anymore, if you don't want to.

You will say, "I've already done that," and I will say, "I missed it," and you will continue to be tedious and annoying. So, never mind...I'm really no longer interested in your opinion on the matter.You never were.

Just be more precise with your language next time, then you won't have to move the goalposts later.

Pro tip.

[ChumpDumper]

NEW YORK — The white New York City police officer whose choke hold led to the death of an unarmed black man has been sued three times for allegedly violating the constitutional rights of other blacks he and fellow cops arrested.One settled.

One dismissed.

One pending.

But it's all unknowable, so no need to bother ever questioning or investigating anything a police officer does.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/choke-hold-cop-pantaleo-sued/19899461/

[Yonivore]

You never were.
Actually, I was interested in how anyone could say race is a self-evident component to the arrest of Eric Garner. I would have been interested no matter who posted it -- it just happened to be you.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I was interested in how anyone could say race is a self-evident component to the arrest of Eric Garner. I would have been interested no matter who posted it -- it just happened to be you.Well, with the original goalpost position, it is self-evident.

How would you describe the suspect?

[Yonivore]

Well, with the original goalpost position, it is self-evident.
Quote or post my "original goalpost position," please.


How would you describe the suspect?
In what context?

[ChumpDumper]

Quote or post my "original goalpost position," please.Already did.

Link worked and everything.



In what context?in he context of describing him.

A physical description.

[Yonivore]

One settled.

One dismissed.

One pending.

But it's all unknowable, so no need to bother ever questioning or investigating anything a police officer does.
Link please.

[ChumpDumper]

Link please.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/choke-hold-cop-pantaleo-sued/19899461/

[Yonivore]

Already did.

Link worked and everything.
And, again, I missed it. I missed the post in which you linked it, too. Please help me here. I'm asking nicely because I can't respond to something when I don't know to what you're referring.


in he context of describing him.

A physical description.
A very obese African-American male wearing a grey t-shirt, tan cargo shorts, and what I think are blue (but, they could be black) tennis shoes. Not knowing the surroundings or the height of anyone else there, I'd estimate him to be about 6'1" tall but, I'm not very good at those type of estimates from video.

[ChumpDumper]

African-AmericanThanks.

[Yonivore]

Thanks.
That's like suggesting his grey t-shirt was a component of his arrest.

[ChumpDumper]

That's like suggesting his grey t-shirt was a component of his arrest.No.

Not at all.

That isn't even close to being the same.

[Yonivore]

No.

Not at all.

That isn't even close to being the same.
How is it different in the context of components related to Mr. Garner's arrest? The color and style of his shirt had no more to do with his arrest than his skin color.

[ChumpDumper]

How is it different in the context of components related to Mr. Garner's arrest? The color and style of his shirt had no more to do with his arrest than his skin color.Goalpost move again duly noted.

[Yonivore]

Goalpost move again duly noted.
How is his race different from the color of his shirt, in the context of his arrest?

And, I can't respond to the goalpost comment unless you tell what I've changed.

[ChumpDumper]

How is his race different from the color of his shirt, in the context of his arrest?

And, I can't respond to the goalpost comment unless you tell what I've changed.Already did.

Couple times.

I am starting to think you are feigning obtuseness.

[Yonivore]

Already did.

Couple times.

I am starting to think you are feigning obtuseness.
Never mind.

[spurraider21]

Well hopefully Chump and Yon can take a breather and let this thread get back on track...

This is an interesting essay/post by Benjamin Watson... its a couple of weeks old but I haven't seen it brought up on SpursTalk, thought I'd share it and see what others think...

towards the end he gets all up in jeebus crust, but i think its a good read nonetheless

https://www.facebook.com/BenjaminWatsonOfficial/posts/602172116576590



At some point while I was playing or preparing to play Monday Night Football, the news broke about the Ferguson Decision. After trying to figure out how I felt, I decided to write it down. Here are my thoughts:

I'M ANGRY because the stories of injustice that have been passed down for generations seem to be continuing before our very eyes.

I'M FRUSTRATED, because pop culture, music and movies glorify these types of police citizen altercations and promote an invincible attitude that continues to get young men killed in real life, away from safety movie sets and music studios.

I'M FEARFUL because in the back of my mind I know that although I'm a law abiding citizen I could still be looked upon as a "threat" to those who don't know me. So I will continue to have to go the extra mile to earn the benefit of the doubt.

I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.

I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.

I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.

I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.

I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.

I'M INTROSPECTIVE, because sometimes I want to take "our" side without looking at the facts in situations like these. Sometimes I feel like it's us against them. Sometimes I'm just as prejudiced as people I point fingers at. And that's not right. How can I look at white skin and make assumptions but not want assumptions made about me? That's not right.

I'M HOPELESS, because I've lived long enough to expect things like this to continue to happen. I'm not surprised and at some point my little children are going to inherit the weight of being a minority and all that it entails.

I'M HOPEFUL, because I know that while we still have race issues in America, we enjoy a much different normal than those of our parents and grandparents. I see it in my personal relationships with teammates, friends and mentors. And it's a beautiful thing.

I'M ENCOURAGED, because ultimately the problem is not a SKIN problem, it is a SIN problem. SIN is the reason we rebel against authority. SIN is the reason we abuse our authority. SIN is the reason we are racist, prejudiced and lie to cover for our own. SIN is the reason we riot, loot and burn. BUT I'M ENCOURAGED because God has provided a solution for sin through the his son Jesus and with it, a transformed heart and mind. One that's capable of looking past the outward and seeing what's truly important in every human being. The cure for the Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Eric Garner tragedies is not education or exposure. It's the Gospel. So, finally, I'M ENCOURAGED because the Gospel gives mankind hope.

[ElNono]

He got me until the last paragraph... ugh...

[spurraider21]

He got me until the last paragraph... ugh...
indeed. thought about omitting it tbh

realistically, it just looks like he's on both sides of the fence so he doesn't get anybody's bad side... but it gives some good perspective anyway

[boutons_deux]

He got me until the last paragraph... ugh...

fucking Bible humpers, simplistic cretins.

[boutons_deux]

Fox host: Minority communities need to be trained to be ‘more sensitive to the police’

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fox_jjj_senstivity_141207c-800x430.jpg
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/fox-host-minority-communities-need-to-be-trained-to-be-more-sensitive-to-the-police/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[spurraider21]

Fox host: Minority communities need to be trained to be ‘more sensitive to the police’
you mean they should behave responsibly around people authorized to use force? no shit

[TheSanityAnnex]

Fox host: Minority communities need to be trained to be ‘more sensitive to the police’

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fox_jjj_senstivity_141207c-800x430.jpg
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/fox-host-minority-communities-need-to-be-trained-to-be-more-sensitive-to-the-police/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29




You failed to answer so I'll ask again.

You said Wilson was coached for weeks and fucking lying, were the African American witnesses who testified and supported Wilson's account coached and lying as well?

[TheSanityAnnex]

you mean they should behave responsibly around people authorized to use force? no shit
That's racist

[boutons_deux]

You failed to answer so I'll ask again.

You said Wilson was coached for weeks and fucking lying, were the African American witnesses who testified and supported Wilson's account coached and lying as well?

Wilson was coached, the witnesses were hardballed or softballed if they were not supporting or supporting no indictment.

and you IG FUCKING NORE what, how Wilson initially INFLAMED Brown, and that Wilson was trolling a black neighborhood to harass blacks.

[spurraider21]

the witnesses were hardballed or softballed if they were not supporting or supporting no indictment.
how do you know?

[boutons_deux]

You failed to answer so I'll ask again.

You said Wilson was coached for weeks and fucking lying, were the African American witnesses who testified and supported Wilson's account coached and lying as well?

do you the rookie NY cop who accidentally killed an innocent black CALLED HIS UNION LAWYERS before he called his HQ?

the exonerator's ENTIRE GRAND JURY charade was a farce, a Kangaroo show trial, which you RACISTS "believe" as Bible truth. The goal was to CONVICT Brown and DEFEND Wilson. mission accomplished.

[101A]

He got me until the last paragraph... ugh...


So do you dismiss the rest because he is a Christian?
I thought it was some of the most enlightened, open thoughts on the situation - he didn't "tribe" up, but admitted he has instincts to do just that. The fact that this most reasoned, eloquent response might be influenced by a man's faith causes you to respond with "ugh"?

Prejudice, indeed.

[101A]

fucking Bible humpers, simplistic cretins.

Probably the most ironic statement I've ever read on SpursTalk.

[boutons_deux]

the Wilson exonerator lied,
Ferguson grand jury documents withheld


In spite of St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch's promises to make all witness testimony in the Michael Brown shooting case public so he could show the process was fair and impartial, McCulloch's office now acknowledges that it kept some records secret at the behest of federal authorities who are still investigating the incident.

The acknowledgment came after a review by KSDK-TV found several key documents were missing from the thousands of pages released by McCulloch's office on Nov. 24, shortly after the prosecutor announced that the grand jury had decided not to indict Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson for killing the unarmed teen.

McCulloch's executive assistant, Ed Magee, said the office released everything it still had when the case was closed, but had "turned over and relinquished control" of some FBI's interviews conducted in connection with the shooting.

Dorian Johnson interview withheld

A team of investigative reporters from around the country reviewed the transcripts released by McCulloch's office, which included law enforcement interviews with 24 witnesses. Most conspicuous in its absence was the joint federal-county interview with the witness who had been closest to the deadly confrontation, Michael Brown's friend Dorian Johnson.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/08/ferguson-grand-jury-documents-withheld/20072311/

[DarrinS]

Dorian is the LEAST credible witness

[Yonivore]

Wilson was patrolling.
There, fixed it.

[ElNono]

So do you dismiss the rest because he is a Christian?

I thought it was some of the most enlightened, open thoughts on the situation - he didn't "tribe" up, but admitted he has instincts to do just that. The fact that this most reasoned, eloquent response might be influenced by a man's faith causes you to respond with "ugh"?

Prejudice, indeed.

I would've had the same reaction if it he invoked Allah, the flying spaghetti monster or Buddha, it's not strictly a Christian thing, tbh...

I enjoyed the read until the last paragraph, which I strongly disagree with. It doesn't invalidate the rest though, never said that.

[Winehole23]

Police homicide is a public safety problem. The main causes are impunity and the silence of the guild. Make it easier to get rid of the 5% of LEOs who are 95% of the problem by having outside investigations of excessive use of force and prosecuting LEOs who lie or impede investigations into the same.

[Yonivore]

Police homicide is a public safety problem. The main causes are impunity and the silence of the guild. Make it easier to get rid of the 5% of LEOs who are 95% of the problem by having outside investigations of excessive use of force and prosecuting LEOs who lie or impede investigations into the same.
On the list of public safety problems, where do you rank police homicide?

[Chomag]

We have a crime problem not a police problem.

[Winehole23]

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2014/12/04/cleveland_division_of_police_findings_letter.pdf

[Nbadan]

:rolleyes

Trust in public officials, especially police, should be a pretty damn high priority...no matter what Yoni thinks...

[Winehole23]

We have a crime problem not a police problem.violent crime across the board is near histoic lows in the USA, and has been trending downward for over twenty years. police homicides are trending in the other direction.

does it make sense that excessive force and police homicide should be on the rise when the crime rate is so near the all time low?

[Winehole23]

On the list of public safety problems, where do you rank police homicide?In Utah, it's the second leading category of homicide, after shooting by family members.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang

[Winehole23]

more than gang related, more than child abuse killings in Utah.

[Yonivore]

violent crime across the board is near histoic lows in the USA, and has been trending downward for over twenty years. police homicides are trending in the other direction.

does it make sense that excessive force and police homicide should be on the rise when the crime rate is so near the all time low?
Yes, it does. The crime rate may be lower but, crime is being concentrated in areas that have all but become war zones.

[Yonivore]

:rolleyes

Trust in public officials, especially police, should be a pretty damn high priority...no matter what Yoni thinks...
That wasn't the question. How do you compare trust in the police with trust in criminals?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Wilson was coached, the witnesses were hardballed or softballed if they were not supporting or supporting no indictment.

and you IG FUCKING NORE what, how Wilson initially INFLAMED Brown, and that Wilson was trolling a black neighborhood to harass blacks.

LOL how did he inflame Brown? And even if he did inflame Brown, does that give Brown the right to punch Wilson, try and take his gun, and then charge at him? Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit.

[101A]

I would've had the same reaction if it he invoked Allah, the flying spaghetti monster or Buddha, it's not strictly a Christian thing, tbh...

I enjoyed the read until the last paragraph, which I strongly disagree with. It doesn't invalidate the rest though, never said that.

Fair enough.

Although I think maybe the last paragraph, for the author, informs the preceding ones.

[spurraider21]

I would've had the same reaction if it he invoked Allah, the flying spaghetti monster or Buddha, it's not strictly a Christian thing, tbh...

I enjoyed the read until the last paragraph, which I strongly disagree with. It doesn't invalidate the rest though, never said that.
you kidding? if the last paragraph was about the flying spaghetti monster my enjoyment would have increased tenfold

[TheSanityAnnex]

the Wilson exonerator lied,
Ferguson grand jury documents withheld


In spite of St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch's promises to make all witness testimony in the Michael Brown shooting case public so he could show the process was fair and impartial, McCulloch's office now acknowledges that it kept some records secret at the behest of federal authorities who are still investigating the incident.

The acknowledgment came after a review by KSDK-TV found several key documents were missing from the thousands of pages released by McCulloch's office on Nov. 24, shortly after the prosecutor announced that the grand jury had decided not to indict Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson for killing the unarmed teen.

McCulloch's executive assistant, Ed Magee, said the office released everything it still had when the case was closed, but had "turned over and relinquished control" of some FBI's interviews conducted in connection with the shooting.

Dorian Johnson interview withheld

A team of investigative reporters from around the country reviewed the transcripts released by McCulloch's office, which included law enforcement interviews with 24 witnesses. Most conspicuous in its absence was the joint federal-county interview with the witness who had been closest to the deadly confrontation, Michael Brown's friend Dorian Johnson.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/08/ferguson-grand-jury-documents-withheld/20072311/




Dorian feared retaliation so he cut a deal where if he told the truth he would be protected and his statements wouldn't be released. Dorian didn't want to be the next Deandre Joshua.

[Winehole23]

Yes, it does. The crime rate may be lower but, crime is being concentrated in areas that have all but become war zones.If there were some showable correlation between use of force complaints and high crime areas, there might be something to what you're saying. The broader social complaint seems to be that LEOs are using tactics devised for high crime areas and high pressure situations in routine interactions, and often not in reaction to any deadly threat, but for mere noncompliance, or for contemptuous words. Or for pot misdemeanors. Or for fancifully contrived perceptions of threat based on well rehearsed LE jargon.

Last I checked, Americans still have constitutional rights inside and outside of high crime areas.

Do you think LEOs are (or should be) above accountability to the laws they enforce?

[boutons_deux]

if there were some showable correlation between use of force complaints and high crime areas, there might be something to what you're saying. The broader social complaint seems to be that LEOs are using tactics devised for high crime areas and high pressure situations in routine interactions, and often not in reaction to any deadly threat, but for mere noncompliance, or for contemptuous words.

last I checked, Americans still have constitutional rights inside and outside of high crime areas.

not if you're one of 200M citizens in the militarized TSA/Border Patrol zones. and the Repugs will make that horrendous situation worse in the next 2 years if Obama can't block them.

[Yonivore]

if there were some showable correlation between use of force complaints and high crime areas, there might be something to what you're saying. The broader social complaint seems to be that LEOs are using tactics devised for high crime areas and high pressure situations in routine interactions, and often not in reaction to any deadly threat, but for mere noncompliance, or for contemptuous words.

last I checked, Americans still have constitutional rights inside and outside of high crime areas.
No doubt but, the examples being paraded across this forum don't prove the case.

Brown was in the commission of a felony that threatened the life of the officer when he was shot.
Garner was resisting arrest and, on top of that, was in no physical condition to exert himself or withstand what some might call a relatively minor restraint technique.
As for the 12 year-old being shot, I think that was less a matter of police overreach than one of that officer being unsuitable for the job.

I think the cases that better illustrate your point are the "no knock" warrants that have resulted in carnage on both sides of the equation - police and innocent civilians alike. Unfortunately for the Al Sharpton wing of the aggrieved, there isn't a clear pattern of race involved in those so, no one is burning down cities and being invited to the White House to solve the American crisis.

[Winehole23]

Garner was resisting arrest and, on top of that, was in no physical condition to exert himself or withstand what some might call a relatively minor restraint technique.Your prim dismissal of the rather obvious dangers of using a headlock -- which you seem to have borrowed from your MSM masters -- totally notwithstanding, NYPD seems to think there's a liability issue. They've banned the technique for NYC cops.

[Yonivore]

Your prim dismissal of the rather obvious dangers of using a headlock -- which you seem to have borrowed from your MSM masters -- totally notwithstanding, NYPD seems to think there's a liability issue. They've banned the technique for NYC cops.
There is a liability issues, people like Mr. Garner might die. I've already stated that if the NYPD has banned the technique, the officer should be held accountable and, further, that I'm sure a wrongful death suit would be in order.

I didn't dismiss it however, I am fairly certain that technique has been used by that police officer an innumerable amount of times before his unfortunate encounter with Mr. Garner. It's not normally associated with being lethal...hell, high school buddies choke each out out all the time.

My point was that your complaint has merit but, is not supported by the cases being discussed. If you want concrete support for your cause, point to some of the REAL constitutional violations such as occurs during no-knock warrants on the wrong address where the occupant dies trying to defend himself against what he understandably perceives as a violent intruder. That happens more than police officers gunning down unarmed criminal elements in the crime-ridden neighborhoods of our cities.

[CavsSuperFan]

My 2 cents…
The move was more of a headlock take down, not a true choke hold…Teenage boys rough housing do that to each other all the time & nobody dies…The situation was unfortunate but the deceased obesity and poor health contributed to his death…

[Winehole23]

My point was that your complaint has merit but, is not supported by the cases being discussed. If you want concrete support for your cause, point to some of the REAL constitutional violations such as occurs during no-knock warrants on the wrong address where the occupant dies trying to defend himself against what he understandably perceives as a violent intruder. That happens more than police officers gunning down unarmed criminal elements in the crime-ridden neighborhoods of our cities.I take it your are limiting yourself to the three cases you mentioned, but there is a much wider universe of violent police encounters that people are right to be pissed about. I do agree that many of the cases selected for mediagenic outrage are far from ideal vehicles for the grievance, but that does not disconfirm the validity of the grievance itself.

Do you see the arbitrary use of deadly and excessive force against citizens as a problem? A simple yes or no will do.

[Yonivore]

I take it your are limiting yourself to the three cases you mentioned, but there is a much wider universe of violent police on citizen encounters that people are right to be pissed about. I do agree that many of the cases selected for mediagenic outrage are far from ideal vehicles for the grievance, but that does not disconfirm the validity of the grievance itself.
Well, to be fair, you are in a thread titled, "The Ferguson Indictment (on Justice)."


Do you see the arbitrary use of deadly and excessive force against citizens as a problem? A simple yes or no will do.
Yes. Although, I'm not sure I would use the term "arbitrary," but, instead, "capricious."

Now, do I believe there are larger problems, related to public safety, than police use of force?

Yes.

http://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Ferguson_beauty_shop.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--BDsUi2Sy--/18noag8u6sjqtjpg.jpg

Just to illustrate a couple.

[Winehole23]

So we agree that the capricious violence of LE against citizens is a problem.

Presumably, stressing other problems does not minimize, nor does it solve the problem.

Do you think LE should be held to account for arbitrary force, deadly home invasion techniques and unlawful shootings?

[Yonivore]

So we agree that the capricious violence of LE against citizens is a problem.
Yes.


Presumably, stressing other problems does not minimize, nor does it solve the problem.
Some might argue the other problems are leading to the capriciousness of the police. I know I would.


Do you think LE should be held to account for arbitrary force, deadly home invasion techniques and unlawful shootings?
Yes.

[Nbadan]

Brown was in the commission of a felony that threatened the life of the officer when he was shot.

we really need or a wing-nut conspiracy theory icon in this forum....No crime had been committed in the convenience store...the owner of the store and Brown had an 'incident' but Brown paid for his cigarillos and the store owners never called police...

[Nbadan]

....a person who was in the store mistook the incident as a strong arm robbery and called police...but no police report was ever filed by the store owners...

[Yonivore]

we really need or a wing-nut conspiracy theory icon in this forum....No crime had been committed in the convenience store...the owner of the store and Brown had an 'incident' but Brown paid for his cigarillos and the store owners never called police...
Not the crime I was talking about; aggravated assault on a peace officer and attempted capital murder were the crimes to which I was referring. But, I am intrigued. That's the first time I've heard Brown was not being accused of a crime at the convenience store.

[Yonivore]

....a person who was in the store mistook the incident as a strong arm robbery and called police...but no police report was ever filed by the store owners...
I'm not sure what actually happened at the convenience store is even relevant to the discussion; it's certainly not why he was shot.

[Winehole23]

Some might argue the other problems are leading to the capriciousness of the police. I know I would.What problems, besides driving while intoxicated, are you referring to?

[Nbadan]

Not the crime I was talking about; aggravated assault on a peace officer and attempted capital murder were the crimes to which I was referring

let me introduce a theory different from Wilson's version...Brown and his friend were walking down the street, Brown is already hot because of his 'incident with the convenience store owner..a few words ...probably involving the N-word are exchanged.....Brown and his friend walk down the street...a few blocks later officer Wilson comes along...tells them to move to the side of the road....Brown is alreay hot, but he reluctantly obligates .....not without a few smart ass comments typical of teens...

[Nbadan]

.....Wilson pulls along side Brown and his friend and in typical cops fashion pulls in front of them to cut them off..