Spurs vs Pacers - Unbiased Detailed Breakdown

[Useruser666]

Question: Not to re-hash what has been said here too much, but wasn't the Palace fight more like:

Artest fouls Walace.
Walace shoves Artest.
A little shoving by everyone.
Artest lays on scorers table.
Walace throws towel in Artest's direction.
Beer thrown at Artest. All hell breaks loose.

I thought that was closer to what happened?

[pooh]

To those who posted before..."it's SEPTEMBER!" for Christs' sake. Break down something when camp begins or after Indy and Spurs crack heads in about a month. Geez...go away for a month and the place turns into hell in a handbasket. :)

[jochhejaam]

Originally posted by jermaine7fan: If you ask me Ron was fifth in responsibility for that fight escalating to what it did.

FIRST
Ben Wallace
-hard foul in junk time on Ron
-choke pushing Ron after he retaliated
-throwing a towel at Ron while he was laying down ( I believe the fan would have never thought about throwing something at Ron if he hadn't just seen Ben do it)

SECOND
NBA Officials
-for not ejecting and removing Ben and Ron from the court immediately!!! Have you ever seen two players be aloud to stay on court with each other after fighting for that long. It was like two minutes between the choke push and Ron running to the stands... they should have both been in the locker room by then.

THIRD
Stephen Jackson
- For throwing the first punch! Ron ran up in there like a mad man, but he did not swing until after Stephen had started the actual brawl. Ron just pinned the man down... he did not attempt to beat him!

FOURTH
Detroit security
- Their response time was rediculous!!! There are literally 200 to 300 people assigned to stop shit like this, whether they be police, security, or ushers. And it took at least two minutes for any of them to break anything up! There were fans rushing the court and throwing chairs and the security was more afraid of the Pacers players doing something!

FIFTH
Ron Artest
- For retaliating on Ben for the previous hard foul
- For leaving the court and not leaving it up to the professionals to get the guy who threw the cup. (He did not go in there swinging... he pinned a fan down... Vernon Maxwell did far worse and only got a ten game suspension)



Question: Not to re-hash what has been said here too much, but wasn't the Palace fight more like:

Artest fouls Walace.
Walace shoves Artest.
A little shoving by everyone.
Artest lays on scorers table.
Walace throws towel in Artest's direction.
Beer thrown at Artest. All hell breaks loose.O

I thought that was closer to what happened?


Pretty much;

-Artest hard foul on Wallace with less than 1 minute left and game wrapped up
-Wallace shoves Artest (who backpedaled 15 yards out of Wallace's reach)
-Stephon Jackson for some reason challenges Lindsay Hunter to a fight
-Artest lays on scores table
-Wallace throws towel in Artest's direction
-Beer cup lands on Artest and all hell breaks loose after he and Jackson charge into stands pummeling fans that had nothing to do with the beer toss.

[samikeyp]

You guys are the ones that don't get it...


None of you respect what we have.


Man!!! I can't decide what to think about you all! Is it just this thread that makes you all seem so cocky and blind?


You guys don't give us a chance in hell to beat you in the playoffs... in reality... we have a very strong chance of doing just that.


you all just bash on my team

So do you always come to boards and drop ignorant blanket statements about entire fan bases? Are you so lacking mental fortitude that you assume all Spurs fans are of the same mindset. Im just curious. You say good things about your team and you are "defending" them....Spurs fans say good things about their team and they are "arrogant and cocky"?



and Garnett is the best

That is your opinion and as such is not fact. Just because you believe that...does not make it so.


I want you to believe we will be your toughest competition


I will not stop defending us until you all open your eyes and see that Indiana is a threat to you this year.

or you'll what?

[SequSpur]

This topic is pure horse shit.

[vsnba]

Oneal has not seen duncan in playoff. How can this says Garnet is better than Duncan. How you canc compare duncan to Garnet. ofcourse is garnet is bettet in one things that is Sucking up more money and not rings.

[TPMG2007]

:lol Classicly bad post.

I stopped when you gave the edge to Tinsley. Have you ever seen the two play against each other? Parker owns him.

I did the exact same thing. I was LMAO so I stopped reading it after the Parker thing. What a bunch of crap.

[Trainwreck2100]

A look BEYOND the stats
Parker vs. Tinsley

Besides the fact that Parker has OWNED Tinsley every time he played him, let's go beyod the stats. Parker has a hot girlfriend, and every time she is there he seems to suck, having probably got some the night before. The closer they get, the more sex, the more he will suck.
Adv. Tinsley

Manu Ginobili vs. STEPHEN JACKSON
If we are going by position only a moron would compare Gino to Artest. Stephon Jackson has alot to prove, he has to be the only player to go from a championship team to the Hawks for less money. Obviously he's got alot going on up in the brain area. Manu's ability to drive and score on anybody is no match for Stephon's punching ability. That mofo's gansta.
Adv. Jackson

Bruce Bowen vs. Ron Artest
These right are are in the top 3 defensive players, but while Bruce is known for kicking other players. Artest is known for beating up on members of the crowd who have done nothing to him.
Bowens Karate kicks vs. Artest's Assault and battery. It's to close to call.
TIEBREAKER-Singing Ability
Now while I hear that Bowen can really light it up on the Karoke machine nothing compares to Artest's R&B CD.
Winner:Artest

Tim Duncan vs. Jermaine Oneal.
I would love to give it to the two time MVP/ three time Finals MVP. His age makes him lose this one. The fact that he spent FOUR years of college. FOUR, JOneal was smart enough to come right out of college, and he throws a mean right hook.
Adv. Jermaine Oneal

Nazr vs. Foster
Who gives a shit, it's like comparing some guy who is a placeholder to another guy who is a placeholder.

The bench
As we all know it's better to take young players than proven veterans. Just because they have proved time and time again that they can make shots, doesn't mean anything. The young guys don't need to play better, as long as they can practice for longer hours. As the saying goes "practice makes perfect."
Advantage: Indiana

Looks like we are screwed, might as well just watch Hockey instead of Basketball.

GO STARS!!!!!!

[Chris]

Dude, the Pacers had a grand total of four guys who shot over .400 in the playoffs last season.

Three are gone (Miller, Jones and Davis).

One took four shots a game (Foster).

Their franchise PF shot .365.

Please refrain from comparing him to Duncan in any respect other than height.

RACK EM!

[samikeyp]

To those who posted before..."it's SEPTEMBER!" for Christs' sake. Break down something when camp begins or after Indy and Spurs crack heads in about a month. Geez...go away for a month and the place turns into hell in a handbasket

see what you get for leaving! :)

[Mr. Body]

Pacers were in the NBA Finals in 2000

Austin Crosher was in the NBA Finals in 2000. Nobody other than him.

[Dex]

Screw the individual matchups. Reggie will carry the Pacers all the way to the top!

......oh wait. :oops

[Mavs<Spurs]

This is a moron who goes by jared15 currently on RealGM. He's had a few other user names as he keeps getting banned for his drivel. This guy claims he's in the Mensa society. :rollin
More like the mental society as in mentally challenged.

BTW, people who work at gas stations are in it, so you know there couldn't be all that much to it.
:blah :blah

[duncan_21]

What is the artest factor? Is that like a mendoza line for crazy. So if you see some crazy dude running around naked with a knife do you say well he's below the artest factor. :rollin

[Mavs<Spurs]

Oh no, not the intangibles crap. :lol:

*cough*cop-out*cough*


You want facts. SA has 3 rings and you have zero!
Its that simple!
No excuses. No intangibles. Championships 3-0.

[A Serbian Beast]

Maybe "The Artest Factor" is the name of his new album?

[ZStomp]

I just noticed this thread right now. I read the first paragraph and then started laughing.

The end.

[Leetonidas]

LMFAO!!!

Tim > Jermaine, everyone.
Nazr > Jeff Foster
Tony > Jamaal Tinsley
Bruce Bowen > Ron Artest
Manu Ginobili > Stephen Jackson
Spurs Bench >>>>>>>>>>>> Pacers Bench
Gregg Popovich > Rick Carlisle (LMFAO 3 NBA Rings to 0 hoto')

[Louie Vega]

Here's my honest match-up by match-up of the Pacers and the Spurs. I think the Spurs are blah blah blah blah blah blah
So without further ado, here are my unbiased, unhyped matchup breakdown for the Pacers and Spurs blah blah blah blah. .


This guy is already having nightmares about the Spurs. And he honestly thinks his Pacers will get past Miami? LOL

Try to get some sleep and try not to have anymore nightmares about the Spurs. It is obvious you are delirious by the nonsense you are putting on this message board.

[jermaine7fan]

Question: Not to re-hash what has been said here too much, but wasn't the Palace fight more like:

Artest fouls Walace.
Walace shoves Artest.
A little shoving by everyone.
Artest lays on scorers table.
Walace throws towel in Artest's direction.
Beer thrown at Artest. All hell breaks loose.

I thought that was closer to what happened?
nope... you just omitted some stuff I said.

[jermaine7fan]

This guy is already having nightmares about the Spurs. And he honestly thinks his Pacers will get past Miami? LOL

Try to get some sleep and try not to have anymore nightmares about the Spurs. It is obvious you are delirious by the nonsense you are putting on this message board.Yes... I am sure I will have nightmares about the Spurs... I am afraid to sleep tonight... I am on my third red bull. JK. I am done with this thread... so you can all be happy. I can see that we are going to get no respect over here. It's ok though... we have just slightly over a month before our teams will play two games in the pre-season... we can all judge properly then... good luck

[phyzik]

Yes... I am sure I will have nightmares about the Spurs... I am afraid to sleep tonight... I am on my third red bull. JK. I am done with this thread... so you can all be happy. I can see that we are going to get no respect over here. It's ok though... we have just slightly over a month before our teams will play two games in the pre-season... we can all judge properly then... good luck


wait a sec, the origional post blatantly states the Pacers are far superior to the Spurs, That the Spurs have no chance against your Pacers, DESPITE UNBIASED OPINION :rolleyes then all the sudden you feel we dont give you respect when we disagree?

Kiss my freaking ass. :lol

[jermaine7fan]

wait a sec, the origional post blatantly states the Pacers are far superior to the Spurs, That the Spurs have no chance against your Pacers, DESPITE UNBIASED OPINION :rolleyes then all the sudden you feel we dont give you respect when we disagree?

Kiss my freaking ass. :lolKiss my freaking ass... I did not make the original post and I do not agree with him either. I have stated time and time again that you guys have a better chance than us... but we are going to be your toughest competition. You need to pay more attention before you start talkin shit.

[xcoriate]

but we are going to be your toughest competition.

Really, you looked into the your crystal ball and gazed into the future?

[NZHayden]

should i slap him now or later?
also will it be the backhand or the more traditional way

[xcoriate]

backhand

they just look nasty

[ManuTastic]

I think everyone's taking this way too seriously. A statement like "Artest, who's listed at a monsterous 6'7" 252 lb., is a far superior rebounder than the undersized, underweight Manu Ginobili" is clearly tongue-in-cheek. For example, he doesn't even compare their actual rebounding stats, and 6'7" is not "monstrous" (nor is it "monsterous," whatever language that word exists in). Dude's just havin' some fun getting excited about his Pacers next season. Tha's cool. It just ain't got nothin' to do with reality, homepiece.

All your base are belong to us. :smokin

[TDMVPDPOY]

Someone should hand these pacerfans a tissue to wipe that shit leftover around their lips, cose i see bullshit

[ChumpDumper]

our teams will play two games in the pre-season... we can all judge properly thenYou mean when Pop plays all the guys who have no shot at making the team and experiments with whatever crazy lineups that came to him during his pre-game dump?

[TOP-CHERRY]

A look BEYOND the stats
Parker vs. Tinsley

Besides the fact that Parker has OWNED Tinsley every time he played him, let's go beyod the stats. Parker has a hot girlfriend, and every time she is there he seems to suck, having probably got some the night before. The closer they get, the more sex, the more he will suck.
Adv. Tinsley

Manu Ginobili vs. STEPHEN JACKSON
If we are going by position only a moron would compare Gino to Artest. Stephon Jackson has alot to prove, he has to be the only player to go from a championship team to the Hawks for less money. Obviously he's got alot going on up in the brain area. Manu's ability to drive and score on anybody is no match for Stephon's punching ability. That mofo's gansta.
Adv. Jackson

Bruce Bowen vs. Ron Artest
These right are are in the top 3 defensive players, but while Bruce is known for kicking other players. Artest is known for beating up on members of the crowd who have done nothing to him.
Bowens Karate kicks vs. Artest's Assault and battery. It's to close to call.
TIEBREAKER-Singing Ability
Now while I hear that Bowen can really light it up on the Karoke machine nothing compares to Artest's R&B CD.
Winner:Artest

Tim Duncan vs. Jermaine Oneal.
I would love to give it to the two time MVP/ three time Finals MVP. His age makes him lose this one. The fact that he spent FOUR years of college. FOUR, JOneal was smart enough to come right out of college, and he throws a mean right hook.
Adv. Jermaine Oneal

Nazr vs. Foster
Who gives a shit, it's like comparing some guy who is a placeholder to another guy who is a placeholder.

The bench
As we all know it's better to take young players than proven veterans. Just because they have proved time and time again that they can make shots, doesn't mean anything. The young guys don't need to play better, as long as they can practice for longer hours. As the saying goes "practice makes perfect."
Advantage: Indiana

Looks like we are screwed, might as well just watch Hockey instead of Basketball.

GO STARS!!!!!!
Nice! :tu

[samikeyp]

If anyone takes a pre-season result as gospel, then they are foolish. Jermaine, you seem the kind that would come in here and talk smack is the Pacers beat the Spurs in the pre-season. If the Spurs repeat you will be nowhere to be found.


I can see that we are going to get no respect over here

like the respect you give the Spurs right? :rolleyes

[Mark in Austin]

You have got to be smoking!!! We have gone through hell your team can't even imagine... you were beaten by the Lakers because they had been better than you... we were beaten by the Pistons because of injuries and suspensions... AND NO OTHER TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA HAS GONE THROUGH WHAT OUR TEAM DID... WE WERE DOWN TO SIX FUCKING AVAILABLE PLAYERS AT ONCE YOU ALL HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSE TO HELL LIKE THAT! You have won three 'ships in the last decade... how is that even close to going through hell?


Fucking retarded arguement. It is your own player's faults that they were down to 6 players. This wasn't an act of God, or an unfortunate injury. It was grown men acting like twelve year olds with poor impulse control. If you lose control on the court, you can't blame anybody but yourself for the results of that action, no matter how much you were provoked. Manu got knocked down more flagrantly multiple times in the Denver and Seattle series than anything that happened at the "malice at the palace". Did you see him lose his cool? No. He went to the line and burried the motherfuckers.

The fact that Pacer players couldn't keep their cool just shows how far your team is from being legitimate championship contenders.

Like we've said before - Ya'll have a nice team. One of the best in the east, coached by one of the best coaches in the east. Any praise beyond that has to be EARNED.

[The Artest Factor]

You all keep hyping up your team of geriatric hasbeens. It will back the inevitable steam-rolling by the Pacers all the more enjoyable.

[batman2883]

I just read this threat for the first time right now and i think you seriously need to get off of Ron Artest's nuts. The Pacers are in now way better than the Spurs in any aspect of the game. Ron Artest would never ever be able to put shackles on Manu. Then you say that Tinsley is the best post up point in the NBA ha ha ha ha that shit is funny cause Gary Payton is better at posting up than Tinsley ever will be. Manu always hustles after the ball proving to be the better rebounder than Artest. The Pacers will beat the Pistons this year i can agree with that, but if the Spurs were to meet the Pacers in the finals, i say Spurs in 5. The Pacers arent a deep team, and depth takes you places, i'm willing to bet our fucking bench could take the Pacers out no problem

[looktotheskies]

You all keep hyping up your team of geriatric hasbeens. It will back the inevitable steam-rolling by the Pacers all the more enjoyable.
Better a team of geriatric has-beens than a team of immature never-weres, never-will-bes.

[Dex]

You all keep hyping up your team of geriatric hasbeens. It will back the inevitable steam-rolling by the Pacers all the more enjoyable.

Okay, I can see we're dealing with a case of denial here.

Bring it, sucker. Just don't come back whining to us when we stomp your team during the season, and IF you even make it to the Finals.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

[Dex]

Better a team of geriatric has-beens than a team of immature never-weres, never-will-bes.

Brilliant first post!

Welcome to the boards! :spin

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Spurs' Tony Parker vs Pacers' Jamaal Tinsley
OFFENSE
A superior FT% and 3P% shows us that Tinsley is quite easily the better shooter. Parker's superior quickness and slimmer frame allows him to penetrate the lane better than Tinsley giving him the edge in dribble-drive penetration. One of the most underrated aspects of Tinsley offense is his post game. Being a large-framed point guard in the mold of a Mark Jackson, Tinsley is probably the best post up point guard in the league.
Winner: Parker, slightly. Tinsley's a more well-rounded scorer, however Parker's penetration and subsuquent higher FG% gives him a slight edge.

parker slightly....parker's penetration and subsequent higher FG% gives him a slight edge



LOL :lmao LOL :lmao

[jermaine7fan]

If anyone takes a pre-season result as gospel, then they are foolish. Jermaine, you seem the kind that would come in here and talk smack is the Pacers beat the Spurs in the pre-season. If the Spurs repeat you will be nowhere to be found.



like the respect you give the Spurs right? :rolleyesHow am I not respecting your team? I have said many times that you all have a better chance. And I will be here in June... to apologize or to say I told you so... I have nothing to lose.

[jermaine7fan]

Okay, I can see we're dealing with a case of denial here.

Bring it, sucker. Just don't come back whining to us when we stomp your team during the season, and IF you even make it to the Finals.

Don't say we didn't warn you.Nope... don't say we didn't warn you!

[Dex]

Don't worry, we won't :blah

I like your moxy though, jermaine. At least you're not a complete homer like the tool that started this post. Nothing wrong with defending your team to no end (as long as you do it realistically). Hope you stick around the board through the season.

And you're right, in this game, it all comes down to percentages. Nobody is a lock to win the title in any given season, and no team is ever necessarily ruled out of the equation as well. I like San Antonio's chances as much as anybody around here, and can't wait to see what they will be able to do with them. But you're right, Indiana is right in the mix of things as well, and though their chances probably aren't quite as high, they're better than probably 20-25 other teams in the league.

I think the Pacers will garner the respect they deserve this season. I just don't happen to think it will be over the Spurs. I suppose thats why they play the games though, eh?

[ambchang]

sounds like Spursdaone/HeatChamps is taking a new alias

[CharlieMac]

Classic.

Why would you match up Manu and Artest?

[SoupIsGood]

This thread is embarrasing.

[jermaine7fan]

Don't worry, we won't :blah

I like your moxy though, jermaine. At least you're not a complete homer like the tool that started this post. Nothing wrong with defending your team to no end (as long as you do it realistically). Hope you stick around the board through the season.

And you're right, in this game, it all comes down to percentages. Nobody is a lock to win the title in any given season, and no team is ever necessarily ruled out of the equation as well. I like San Antonio's chances as much as anybody around here, and can't wait to see what they will be able to do with them. But you're right, Indiana is right in the mix of things as well, and though their chances probably aren't quite as high, they're better than probably 20-25 other teams in the league.

I think the Pacers will garner the respect they deserve this season. I just don't happen to think it will be over the Spurs. I suppose thats why they play the games though, eh?I really think the Spurs have us on paper (and most likely the court too)... so your right... those games come in handy. I will stick around... I like it here... LOTS of discussion... a little slow on indystar lately.

P.S. - I won't rub games in your faces if we win... I am not a dick... So please don't do it to my Pacers :angel I will congradulate you all win or lose.

[JustSpurs]

This is the best thread ever!

[50 cent]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

This is the greatest thread ever.

[nkdlunch]

:lol this thread is the shizz Title is perfect, shows the Unbiased Detailed Mental Breakdown of Artest Factor

[Spurminator]

:lmao

I just read this for the first time.

The Artest Factor is one of the best trolls I've seen in a long time.

[z0sa]

Yeah...expect for a point guard quoted as being perhaps the best in the world on ESPN.com http://www.nba.com/athens2004/jasikevicius_feature.html

And oh yeah.....that rookie who was the best player in college last season, and the most NBA-ready rookie in the league. This guy won't take time to develop. He's a killer from the get go. 19 points, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 50%+ fg, 40%+ 3!! WOW! Like ESPN said....if Granger played at Duke or UNC, he would've been the first pick in the draft without hesitation. He's basically what Marvin Williams with completely reliezed upside.

Oh, and that monster defender/scorer...whats his name? Oh yeah, RON ARTEST

You think he'll average numbers like that against us?

[mrpach]

on the other hand...its summer...no basketball..nothin to do..reading all this was entretaining :lol

[Obstructed_View]

You know your team is badass when other teams' posters run the "head-to-head comparison/paper champions" routine on September 2.
Well put. :lol

[Supergirl]

I may be repeating others, but I couldn't stomach 12 pages of this drivel. But I had to put my $.02 in.

You know it's Pacers homer troll when they pump up Artest and then minimize Bowen. Please.

Pacers haven't made any significant changes to their roster this year, and they couldn't even make it to the East finals. They should be able to at least get that far without Artest - he ain't that good.

Bowen and Artest are both good defensively. Bowen's better because he can do it without hurting people and getting suspended for and entire season. We'll see whether Artest can.

Tinsley's good, but not as good as Parker. We'll see whose better in the long run. Right now, Parker's got the edge.

Duncan is not even in the same class as O'Neal, and incidentally, is better than KG because of his smarts. KG's lack of smarts may keep him from EVER winning a title.

Manu is better than Stephen Jackson. He's more skilled, he'sa better defender, and he makes better decisions.

Nazr, Rasho, Horry, and Fabri are better than Foster or Croshere.

It's not clear how much Finley and Van Exel will contribute. Personally, I'm not sold on Finley, but I like the signing to keep him away from Phoenix. I think Van Exel will be crucial in the playoffs, when he'll be fresh and coming off the bench.

But the reality is, the Spurs didn't have to make many changes. They're the defending champs. It's everyone else who has to prove themselves.

[Frank Slakd]

Your a dumbass.

It's mostly Detroit and Miami... that makes indiana back to at least 4th or 5th


http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_14152.shtml


#2 – Indiana Is The Best In The East: Yeah, Miami is amazingly deep, and Detroit is Detroit – but here is why Indiana is better than both of them – continuity. The Pistons have an entirely new coaching staff, meaning things are not going to be as they were under Larry Brown. The Miami Heat has all the talent in the world, but can they be coached by Stan Van Gundy, and how long will it take for them to gel together? Indiana brings back the same core of guys, everyone is healthy and Ron Artest is on a mission. Rick Carlisle's staff is intact. Barring injury - The Pacers are most prepared to pick up where they left off.

hmmm glad to see I am not the dumbass here :lol
how embarassing for you

[td4mvp21]

at least he's not the one getting info off of hoopsworld......

[SoupIsGood]

http://www.soopsworld.com/article_45643eye.h8ua11



The Indiana Pacers have won the past 50 NBA Championships.


LOL @ all the dumbasses who thinks the Pacers have never won an NBA Championship. Ahahahahahaha. I've got the link right here, it must be true! You poor dumbfucks. :lol

[z0sa]

I'm sorry but I really see Indiana giving Detroit a run for its money this time around... Miami we'll have to wait and see but I don't see them anywhere near a lock for the 2006 Finals.

[Boo]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_14152.shtml



hmmm glad to see I am not the dumbass here :lol
how embarassing for you

:lol :lol

Just because SOME STUPID SITE thinks that doesn't mean shit.

Have you heard of Detroit, Miami, and others?

I actually think Indiana will be good just not that good. (Your saying they'll be first)

[ObiwanGinobili]

this just in from Hoopsworld.com :

Bulls moving to DC.
Pop arrested for DWI
KNICKS favored as leading team out of the east.

You can trust it! It's from Hoopsworld where they are proud to be voted the most bullshit BBall site known to man.

[Boo]

Now dont you feel stupid Frank Slakd?

[looktotheskies]

Pacers haven't made any significant changes to their roster this year, and they couldn't even make it to the East finals. They should be able to at least get that far without Artest - he ain't that good.


Not true. They drafted Danny Granger, arguably the most complete NBA ready player in the draft. Whether he disappoints like Mike Dunleavy Jr. or explodes like Dwyane Wade is not known. Most likely, he'll be somewhere in the middle like a Josh Howard or Shane Battier.

They also picked up a fantastic Euro, Sarunas Jasikevicius. He's widely regarded as one of the top PGs/shooters not in the NBA. However, it's unknown if that will translate to NBA success. I think he'll help the Pacers a lot.

The Pacers shouldn't necessarily make it to the ECF. You're minimalizing how much Artest means to that team. He's arguably their second best offensive player besides O'Neal and their best defender. With Artest, they can compete with the best teams, but without him, they're a player short. Think about the effects of taking Ginobili, or even Bowen, off of the Spurs. Sure, people may say that Ginobili is overrated, but without him, the Spurs don't win a championship.

[samikeyp]

Duncan is not even in the same class as O'Neal

I think you mean that the other way around. :)