Spurs vs Pacers - Unbiased Detailed Breakdown [Archive]

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The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 01:31 PM

Here's my honest match-up by match-up of the Pacers and the Spurs. I think the Spurs are the older, more experienced team. However I think Indiana is clearly the more talented team, as their starting lineup mops the floor with San Antonios, and their also a much younger team which means they'll only get better whereas the Spurs are on a rapid decline.
One thing I've noticed is how overrated an ntonio has become since picking up Mchael Finley and Nick Van Exel. It does't surprise me as the average fan only looks at name value, and Finley and Van Exel are both former All-Stars. However what they're overlooking is the fact that both are well past their primes, and are a shell of a shell of their former selves. Van Exel is 33 and probably has a max of 2 years left in the league. Finley is 32 and has very little game left. He's basically Glenn Robinson II. There's a reason Dallas cut him while keeping Tariq Abdul-Wahad.

So without further ado, here are my unbiased, unhyped matchup breakdown for the Pacers and Spurs.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

Spurs' Tony Parker vs Pacers' Jamaal Tinsley
OFFENSE
A superior FT% and 3P% shows us that Tinsley is quite easily the better shooter. Parker's superior quickness and slimmer frame allows him to penetrate the lane better than Tinsley giving him the edge in dribble-drive penetration. One of the most underrated aspects of Tinsley offense is his post game. Being a large-framed point guard in the mold of a Mark Jackson, Tinsley is probably the best post up point guard in the league.
Winner: Parker, slightly. Tinsley's a more well-rounded scorer, however Parker's penetration and subsuquent higher FG% gives him a slight edge.

DEFENSE
Perimeter D: Tinsley is one of the better perimeter defensive point guards in the league. He's a perenial contender for the steals title and is blessed with incredible street smarts. Parker on the other hand is a notoriously poor defender. Whether if be his lack of size or strength, or a lack of desire and discipline from his European uprising, Parker just downright refuses to play defense.
Winner: Tinsley, a very underrated defender, and the best theif in the NBA last season before his unfortunate injury.

REBOUNDING
Tinsley wipes the floor with Parker when it comes to rebounding. He's much larger and stronger, and has a better knack for the ball.
Winner: Tinsley, one of the best rebounding points in the league.

PASSING
Tinsley, the sterotypical New York City pass-first point guard, wins this quite easily. Tinsley is in that upper tier of passers in the NBA. The only 2 players I would clearly rank ahead of him at this point are Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. Tony Parker on the other hand, is one of the more mediocre passing point guards in the league. Despite dominating the ball in San Antonio, and playing with the most fundamentally sound player in the league, he picks up few assists on run of the mill passes.
Winner: Tinsley, a much better passer than Tony Parker. Even Spurs homers and NBA fans who only listen to Bill Walton and Tom Tolbert, and would be lead to believe Tony Parker is a great point guard and not the French version of Speedy Claxton, can't deny this.

OVERALL
Outside of scoring, Tinsley dominates every other head-2-head matchup with Parker. I know to most of you ESPNaholics scoring is all that matters in the game of basketball, but to us NBA experts, we relieze it's the overall game that counts. And when it comes to overall games, Tinsley blows Tony "One-Trick Pony" Parker out of the water.
Winner: Jamaal Tinsley, his overall game of scoring, defense, passing, handling, and rebounding at the point guard position is surpassed by only a small handful of players. all of whom are All-Stars. (Kidd, Francis, B. Davis)

Spurs' Manu Ginobili vs Pacers' Ron Artest
OFFENSE
Both men are average shooters. However Manu's slightly better, but both are so average it's not a major concern. Ginobili is quicker and smaller, meaning he's a better penetrator, however Artest has the post up offense of an All-Star power forward, so that more than cancels out Manus superior quickness.
Winner: Ron Artest, who's versatile and ever-growing offensive repatoire combined iwth his massive size and strength outweighs Manu's superior shooting and quickness.

DEFENSE
Wow. Just...wow! On one hand, we've got the NBA's best defensive player in Ron Artest, a man who held opponents to a rediculous 9.1 ppg on 34% shooting during his last full season. On the other, we've got a player from the Euroleague. Do I really need to go any further? I will. Artest is just too big and strong for a player like Manu to handle. This in my opinion is the single biggest factor between the two teams. The Pacers can realistically shut down the Spurs second best player and there's nothing San Antonio can do about it but sit back and watch in horror. I know Duncan is good, but not good enough to win without a great #2, and he just won't have that here.
Winner: Ron Artest, the best defensive player in the league, win's this matchup by a couple thousand miles.

REBOUNDING
Artest, who's listed at a monsterous 6'7" 252 lb., is a far superior rebounder than the undersized, underweight Manu Ginobili. There's really not much else to say here.
Winner: Artest, by a wide margin.

PASSING
Manu wins this. Artest is an above average passer, with skills he fine tuned on the Queens, NYC playgrounds. He even played point forward at St. Johns. Manu however is one of the best passing shooting guards in the league. He win's this matchup, probably the least important matchup between the two players.
Winner: Manu, by a nose. Albeit a very large nose. :lol:

OVERALL
Artest just dominates this matchup. I find it hard to believe a player as "soft" as Manu Ginobili will be able to get off anything over Ron Artest. I'd expect to see Manu struggle to reach double-figures scoring and with a field goal percentage in the high-20's to low-30's. Artest on the other hand, will use his muscle and athleticism to throw Manu around like a rag doll on the offensive end. Manu has no shot at stopping the "Rottweiler" so this matchup could prove to be laughably one-sided in favor of the Beast from the East, the All-Star, All-NBA, Defensive Player of the Year - Ron Artest.
Winner: Ron Artest, the NBA's most dangerous offense/defense perimeter weapon.

Spurs' Michael Finley vs Pacers' Stephen Jackson
OFFENSE
Michael Finley is a dangerous scorer, who uses his high flying athleticism to soar over defenders, and his deadly jump shot to shoot over those who dare challenge him on the perimeter.
Wait a minute. What year is it? 1998? No wait, it's 2005! Scratch that first paragraph. Michael Finley is a grizzled veteran who's been so broken down by injuries he's barely grasping on to his NBA career. He was recently cut by the Mavs in favor of keeping Tariq Abdul-Wahad on the roster. That tells you all you need to know about Michael Finley at this stage of his career. He brings little more than "name" value at this point.
Stephen Jackson on the other hand is a player who's improved drastically every season he's been in the league. From a 10th man in New Jersey, to a solid role-player on the Spurs 2002 championship team, to the leading scorer on the Hawks, to a 19 ppg scorer on a playoff team in Indiana. The sky's the limit for this talented young man!
Winner: Stephen Jackson, and the gaps only widening.

DEFENSE
Michael Finley's "defense" is offensive to me as a basketball fan. This guy get's lit up more than a joint at Woodstock. He's just too elderly and brittled to event attempt to play defense. Stephen Jackson on the other hand is a big, athletic shooting guard who uses his ripped and athletic 6'8" frame to make shooting over him a very hard thing to do for opposing shooting guards. And this was with him guarding the opponents best perimeter defender last seaosn. Now with Artest taking over that role, and Jackson guarding the teams 2nd best perimeter player, an All-Defensice team isn't out of the question.
Winner: Stephen Jackson, and the gaps only widening.

REBOUNDING
Jackson is a better rbeounder, bar none. He's bigger, stronger, younger, and more athletic. Finley was a solid rebounder in his day, due largely in part to his great leaping ability. However numerous injuries and old age have limited his game to below the rim, where he's a huge liability when it comes to rebounding.
Winner: Stephen Jackson, one of the better rebounding 2-guards in the league.

PASSING
This is a dead heat. Neither man is anything to write home about when it comes to passing. Let's just keep it short and sweet and leave it at that.
Winner: Even

OVERALL
At this point in time the only edge I can give Michael Finley is in the shooting department. Everything else favors Stephen Jackson, sans passing which is dead even. And since Finley keeps drifting further and furtheraway from his peak whereas Jackson has yet to reach his, the gap will only widen in the coming season(s).
Winner: Stephen Jackson, and the....ahh...you all get the point. :lol:

Spurs' Nazr Mohammed vs Pacers' Jeff Foster
OFFENSE
This is a battle between two mediocre offensive centers. Foster has a far better FG% and takes less shots per game, so one could say he's a far smarter offensive player who knows his role. However Mohammed is a more skilled low post scorer, and despite his inferior FG% and knack for taking ill-advised shots that hurt his team, he gets the edge.
Winner: Nazr Mohammed, a more skilled low post scorer

DEFENSE
Mohammed's a far better shot blocker, however when it comes to disrupting the offensive player, Jeff Foster is far superior. Foster is arguably the NBA's most antagonizing defensive center, a player who's been described as a white Dennis Rodman.
Winner:

REBOUNDING
Mazr Mohammed is a good rebounder. Jeff Foster, however, is a great rebounder. 9.0 rebounds in only 26.1 minutes per game is rediculous, and one of the best rebounding rates in the entire NBA. There's a reason Foster is called a white Dennis Rodman by NBA eperts (including myself, and his rebounding is it. His defense too, but mainly his rebounding.
Winner: Jeff Foster, one of the leagues top-5 rebounders

PASSING
This is a pretty meaningless stat, as neither player is much of a passer at all. Most centers aren't. Looking at the stats, I see that Foster averages 0.7 apg in 26.1 mpg compraed to Mohammed's 0.4 apg in 25.1 mpg. So it's safe to say Foster's the better passer.
Winner: Jeff Foster, although neither are good passers, very few centers are.

OVERALL
Both are strictly role players, however Jeff Foster's superior defense, rebounding, and passing more than makes up for Nazr Mohammed's slightly better offensive game.
Winner: Jeff Foster, perhaps the NBA's most underrated player.

Spurs' Tim Duncan vs Pacers' Jermaine O'Neal
OFFENSE
Both are very good scorers. Duncan has been the better scorer throughout their careers, however last season O'Neal was clearly better. Duncan's superior FG% is somewhat offset by O'Neals far superior FT%. However, I'll give the very boring Tim Duncan his due and give him the edge in scoring.
Winner: Tim Duncan, by not by near as much as people think.

DEFENSE
Two great defensive big men. Duncan's a slightly better shot blocker, however O'Neal's superior athleticism allows him to defend a wider variety of offensive players, and also allows him to pick up more steals.
Winner: Even, Duncan a better shot blocker however O'Neal

REBOUNDING
O'Neal is a good rebounder. Duncan is a great rebounder. Nothing else to say really.
Winner: Tim Duncan

PASSING
Two ok passers considering both are near 7'. I'd probably give a slight edge to Duncan since he's a better passer out of the double team, but O'Neals 3 years younger and can hopefully improve that as he get's older.
Winner: Tim Duncan

OVERALL
As great as Jermaine O'Neal is, there's only 1 player in the NBA clearly superior to Tim Duncan and that's Kevin Garnett.
Winner: Tim Duncan, the NBA's second best power foward.

Spurs' Bench vs Pacers' Bench
This one's a toughie. Spurs have the more expierenced bench, but I could make a reasonable case that their bench is more washed up than New Orleans. Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Nick Van Exel, Bruce Bowen - nothing really impressive there, and every player listed is on their last legs. The Pacers bench is so much younger and fresher. Fred Jones was the saving grace of Indiana's season last year. He's got starters talent. Then there's Sarunas Jasikevicius, who was the uninamous "best player not in the NBA" before the Pacers signed him back in July. Then there's Danny Granger, a legitimate top-5 talent in this past draft. He was the best player in college basketball last season, bar none. Then there's the best rookie center from last season, David Harrison, who was #2 in the NBA in FG% and #8 in Blocks per48. He could be a legitimate future All-Star at center in the East. Then there's such solid vets as Austin Croshere, Scot Pollard, Anthony Johnson, Jonathan Bender etc.
Winner: Tie. Spurs have the "name" players, albeit very old hasbeen "name" players. Pacers have the younger and IMO more talented group off the bench. This one could go either way, but if either Saras, Granger, or Harrison live up to their hype/potential, then the Pacers win this easily.

Spurs' Greg Popovich vs Pacers' Rick Carlisle
Rick Carlisle has been the NBA's best coach the past 4 seasons. From leading a team of Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Curry, Ben Wallace, and Cliff Robinson to 50 wins and a trip to round 2 of the playoffs, to leading a destroyed Pacers team to 46 wins and a game 6 of round 2 vs the defending champion Pistons. Noones done more with less than Rick Carlisle, and it shows in the annual Coach of the Year voting where Rick has been by far the most impressive. Greg Popovich on the other hand, just seems to me like a product of Tim Duncan and a great supporting cast. Sure he's won 3 titles, but 2 were very unimpressive wins; the * lockout season win over the 8th seeded Knicks, and the 2002 win over the New Jersey Nets, the Easts worst ever Finals represenitive. Even their past championship was questionable, as the team with the NBA's best record the prior season was virtually eliminated 3 weeks into the season. And last but not least, I have to mention Greg Popovich's single coaching season without Tim Duncan aka "The Season Spurs Fans Refuse To Acknowldge" - 96-97. I understand David Robinson was out, but you still have the core of a Western Conference Finals team plus the addition of a solid veteran scorer in Dominique Wilkins. Yet Popovich "led" the Spurs to one of the NBA's worst records - 17-47, .266 winning percentage. OUCH. I didn't know "elite" coaches could be so bad. If he weren't also the teams GM, he would've been fired at seasons end, would now be selling meat out of the back of a truck, and this entire debate is null and void.
Winner: Rick Carlisle, who's simply a more proven coach. Untill Greg Popovich proves he's more than just Tim Duncan's towel boy, and as I stated earlier his one season without Duncan was an embarassment to the Spurs franchise, then you've gotta go with Rick Carlisle, by far the NBA's most decorated coach since his arrival in the league 4 years ago.

Summary: This should be a great Finals match up. I could honestly see it going anywhere from Indaian in a sweep to Indiana in 7. That's how competetive it will be. I think in the end, Artest's shut down of Manu and Indianas superior role players will be too much for the Spurs to handle. I'd go wit Indiana in 6.

T Park

09-02-2005, 01:33 PM

An Unbiased opinion from a Pacer fan. that picks everything in favor of the.... Pacers.

Makes sense... :rolleyes

Marcus Bryant

09-02-2005, 01:34 PM

The Artest Factor v COLD BEER

Winner: COLD BEER :hat IMO

boutons

09-02-2005, 01:34 PM

The Artest Factor: plonk!

T Park

09-02-2005, 01:35 PM

COLD BEER IMO

I thought it was

Cold Beer, IMO :hat BTW, dont believe me, ASK DUSTY!!!

samikeyp

09-02-2005, 01:36 PM

unbiased huh....yeah, ok.

welcome to the board though.

Marcus Bryant

09-02-2005, 01:36 PM

This one's a toughie. Spurs have the more expierenced bench, but I could make a reasonable case that their bench is more washed up than New Orleans. Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Nick Van Exel, Bruce Bowen - nothing really impressive there, and every player listed is on their last legs. The Pacers bench is so much younger and fresher. Fred Jones was the saving grace of Indiana's season last year. He's got starters talent. Then there's Sarunas Jasikevicius, who was the uninamous "best player not in the NBA" before the Pacers signed him back in July. Then there's Danny Granger, a legitimate top-5 talent in this past draft. He was the best player in college basketball last season, bar none. Then there's the best rookie center from last season, David Harrison, who was #2 in the NBA in FG% and #8 in Blocks per48. He could be a legitimate future All-Star at center in the East. Then there's such solid vets as Austin Croshere, Scot Pollard, Anthony Johnson, Jonathan Bender etc.
Winner: Tie. Spurs have the "name" players, albeit very old hasbeen "name" players. Pacers have the younger and IMO more talented group off the bench. This one could go either way, but if either Saras, Granger, or Harrison live up to their hype/potential, then the Pacers win this easily.

This is perhaps the worst take I've ever seen. Horry "washed up"? Are there not TVs in Indianapolis?

As for Pop, if Carlisle had a squad without DRob and without AJ, Elliott, etc...for major parts of that season he would've led that team to the lottery as well. We've seen what kind of discipline Carlisle has instituted in Indiana and its why he is not a championship coach.

Just go.

Kori Ellis

09-02-2005, 01:36 PM

Spurs' Greg Popovich vs Pacers' Rick Carlisle
Rick Carlisle has been the NBA's best coach the past 4 seasons. From leading a team of Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Curry, Ben Wallace, and Cliff Robinson to 50 wins and a trip to round 2 of the playoffs, to leading a destroyed Pacers team to 46 wins and a game 6 of round 2 vs the defending champion Pistons. Noones done more with less than Rick Carlisle, and it shows in the annual Coach of the Year voting where Rick has been by far the most impressive. Greg Popovich on the other hand, just seems to me like a product of Tim Duncan and a great supporting cast. Sure he's won 3 titles, but 2 were very unimpressive wins; the * lockout season win over the 8th seeded Knicks, and the 2002 win over the New Jersey Nets, the Easts worst ever Finals represenitive. Even their past championship was questionable, as the team with the NBA's best record the prior season was virtually eliminated 3 weeks into the season. And last but not least, I have to mention Greg Popovich's single coaching season without Tim Duncan aka "The Season Spurs Fans Refuse To Acknowldge" - 96-97. I understand David Robinson was out, but you still have the core of a Western Conference Finals team plus the addition of a solid veteran scorer in Dominique Wilkins. Yet Popovich "led" the Spurs to one of the NBA's worst records - 17-47, .266 winning percentage. OUCH. I didn't know "elite" coaches could be so bad. If he weren't also the teams GM, he would've been fired at seasons end, would now be selling meat out of the back of a truck, and this entire debate is null and void.
Winner: Rick Carlisle, who's simply a more proven coach. Untill Greg Popovich proves he's more than just Tim Duncan's towel boy, and as I stated earlier his one season without Duncan was an embarassment to the Spurs franchise, then you've gotta go with Rick Carlisle, by far the NBA's most decorated coach since his arrival in the league 4 years ago.

:lmao

Thanks for being unbiased.

:) Welcome to the Forum.

Dre_7

09-02-2005, 01:37 PM

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Wow, just wow. Thank you so much! I needed a good laugh.

Carlisle better then Pop?? :lol

And by the way, if you are going to make a "detailed" analysis of the Spurs, you should at least get your facts straight. Number 1, Manu is a very good defender. Just cuz he played in Europe doesnt mean anything. Number 2, Finley is comming off the bench, not starting! The fact that you dont know much about SA makes any credibilty you have go down the drain. Oh yeah, dont say its your "unbiased opinion," cuz its not. Your a freakin Pacer fan!!!

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Funny stuff though.

timvp

09-02-2005, 01:38 PM

:lol Classicly bad post.

I stopped when you gave the edge to Tinsley. Have you ever seen the two play against each other? Parker owns him.

Horry For 3!

09-02-2005, 01:41 PM

:lol Classicly bad post.

I stopped when you gave the edge to Tinsley. Have you ever seen the two play against each other? Parker owns him.
:lmao Same here, I read Tinsley over Parker and just starting laughing and thinking this guy is fuckin stupid. :lmao

FromWayDowntown

09-02-2005, 01:43 PM

He even cites Carlisle's bogus "Artest defense stats." It doesn't get much less reliable than that!

I would normally be inclined to refute this point-by-point, particularly the many generalized misconceptions set forth about the Spurs, the idea that Finley will start and matchup against Jackson, and the preposterous nonsense about Popovich. Since this clown is apparently relishing his cluelessness, though, I don't see the point and I really have neither the time nor the energy to spend on such a wasted enterprise.

Objectively, there is no doubt that the Pacers are a formidable opponent. But homerism is not objectivity.

BigVee

09-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Is this Mouse again? Quite laughable. Ask Fortson, Buckner, Martin, Amare, the Wallaces, etc., how soft Ginobili is.

Spurs06

09-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Lmfao @ this topic.

Thanks for the laugh.

Horry For 3!

09-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Summary: This should be a great Finals match up. I could honestly see it going anywhere from Indaian in a sweep to Indiana in 7. That's how competetive it will be. I think in the end, Artest's shut down of Manu and Indianas superior role players will be too much for the Spurs to handle. I'd go wit Indiana in 6.
:lmao @ I could honestly see it going anywhere from Indaian in a sweep :lmao

Admidave50

09-02-2005, 01:44 PM

This is Fucking HILARIOUS!!! Stop the weed man.. Seriously! :smokin :smokin

Parker+Gino+Bowen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tinsley+Artest+SJ
Spurs Bench >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pacers Bench

You must be the Dumbest Pacers Fan I've ever seen!

midgetonadonkey

09-02-2005, 01:44 PM

That was just completely ridiculous. "Rick Carlisle, who's simply a more proven coach." How many rings does he have? Don't you have to win rings to prove something? Indiana should be happy if they can get out of the second round.

HeatChamps

09-02-2005, 01:46 PM

What a load of shit. The Pacers aren't even going to make the finals.

E20

09-02-2005, 01:47 PM

Has Indy even beat Detroit or Miami? Wait 10 months before making final comparisons.

midgetonadonkey

09-02-2005, 01:47 PM

What a load of shit. The Pacers aren't even going to make the finals.

Niether will the Heat.

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 01:47 PM

You know your team is badass when other teams' posters run the "head-to-head comparison/paper champions" routine on September 2.

Manu20

09-02-2005, 01:47 PM

Carlisle better than Pop :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

BTW Parker owns Tinsley.

baseline bum

09-02-2005, 01:48 PM

Parker's superior quickness and slimmer frame allows him to penetrate the lane in a way Tinlsey could never dream of, causing ridiculous matchup problems that force defenses to collapse onto him and free up others. Tell me again when Tinsley forces a whole team to guard him the way Parker did in 2004 vs the Lakers. Parker over Tinsley is such an obvious call it's not even funny. There's no guard in the league who is as good a finisher at the rim as Parker. Parker's a point guard with no jumpshot who still shot 48% last year, versus Tinsley's 42%. Don't give me this garbage about Tinsley being some monster on the boards when he averaged 4.0 rebounds per versus Tony's 3.7. Don't get me wrong - Tinsley is a very underrated player, but don't tell me he can do the things to a defense that Tony Parker can.

Dre_7

09-02-2005, 01:49 PM

No sense in arguing about it. We will just have to wait and see. When SA plays IND in the Finals we we all know for sure who is..........oh wait nevermind! IND wont even be in the finals. Oh well. I guess we will never know!

Too bad they are in the east. DARN!!!

:lol @ "Indiana's superior role players" :lmao

samikeyp

09-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Summary: This should be a great Finals match up. I could honestly see it going anywhere from Indaian in a sweep to Indiana in 7. That's how competetive it will be. I think in the end, Artest's shut down of Manu and Indianas superior role players will be too much for the Spurs to handle. I'd go wit Indiana in 6.

Oh well ok then. Someone call Stern and tell them to cancel the season. Its been unbiasedly pointed out that Indiana is the superior team and that the Spurs have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER so everyone stay on vacation.

picnroll

09-02-2005, 01:59 PM

This is a moron who goes by jared15 currently on RealGM. He's had a few other user names as he keeps getting banned for his drivel. This guy claims he's in the Mensa society. :rollin

dunkman

09-02-2005, 02:10 PM

Here goes my comparation...

PG
Parker >> Tinsley
NVE = Saras
Beno = Johnson

SG
Manu > S-Jax
Barry > Fred Jones

SF
Bowen << Arterst
Finley > Bender

PF
Duncan > J. O'Neal
Horry >> Croshire

C
Nazr = Foster
Rasho > Pollard
Oberto >> Edwards

Coach
Pop >= Carlisle

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:14 PM

phyzik

09-02-2005, 02:16 PM

scoring stats dont show intangibles.

If you dont know intangibles, you dont know basketball.

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:18 PM

scoring stats dont show intangibles.

If you dont know intangibles, you dont know basketball.

Oh no, not the intangibles crap. :lol:

*cough*cop-out*cough*

samikeyp

09-02-2005, 02:18 PM

Tinsley is clearly a superior basketball player

why because you say he is? using the word "clearly" implies fact when in actuality its an opinion.

foodie2

09-02-2005, 02:18 PM

:lmao
Mensa??? This guy can't even spell, much less put coherent sentences together.

And "NBA expert"? Please.

foodie2

09-02-2005, 02:24 PM

And by the way...if Artest and/or Stephen Jackson get through the whole season without going psycho at least once, I'll eat my hat. And as the Pacers proved last year, they aren't going anywhere without them.

picnroll

09-02-2005, 02:25 PM

Hey jared15 douchebag how about putting up Parker's and Tinsley's head to head numbers over the last two years. :rollin

samikeyp

09-02-2005, 02:26 PM

Oh no, not the intangibles crap. :

*cough*cop-out*cough*

dude...if you think intangibles don't matter...you are not the expert you claim to be.

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:29 PM

Ok, I'm reading all of your replies, and I have a few more comments.

Someone mentioned Bruce Bowen starting over Finley. I knew this was the case, however Bruce Bowen is such a bad basketball player, I didn't wanna waste my time with a "Stephen Jackson vs Bruce Bowen" analysis. So I went with Finley, who was a very good player 5 years ago, which is far more than anyone can say about Bruce Bowen. And if Finley has declined to the point where he can't start over perhaps the NBA's least talented starter in the NBA, then he's far worse than evem I could ever imagine.

And Tinsley is clearly the more well-rounded basketball player. Stats aren't the whole story, but they are a large chunk of it. And not even the stats can show you how superior Tinsley's overall game is to Parkers.

And my issue witht he Spurs bench is legit. They're old. Very, very old. That's the thing with NBA players, you just never know how age effects them. Brent Barry's game dropped like a bad habit, whereas the 75 year old Robert Horry is still a fairly respectable backup. The bad news for Spurs fans is, it appears Finley and Van Exel aren't aging gracefully, as they were both pretty bad last season.

And why the hate for Stephen Jackson? This guy was the #1 clutch shooter on your 2002 championship team. If it weren't for his clutch shooting, Manu, Duncan, and Parker were on their way to choking you guys to a 2nd round exit vs the Lakers. And by the way, wasn't it Stephen Jackson starting over Manu that year? Hmm....how very interesting.

samikeyp

09-02-2005, 02:32 PM

so then you think the Spurs have no chance.

td4mvp21

09-02-2005, 02:33 PM

however Bruce Bowen is such a bad basketball player

I quit reading right there. How in the HELL is he a bad basketball player? Do you even watch him play? He shuts people down for us. Thats how we win a lot of times. He scores threes. They usually come at good times, too.

nkdlunch

09-02-2005, 02:34 PM

Just 'cause we got Finley we starting to get all these retarded trolls in here!!!!

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:34 PM

I knew this was the caseBullshit.

You punked yourself, now live with it.

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:37 PM

dude...if you think intangibles don't matter...you are not the expert you claim to be.
I didn't say they didn't matter. I was implying that the whole "My guy has better intangibles than you guy!" notion was nothing more than a cop-out. Especially when you consider the fact that intangibles are, by definition, incapable of being defined.

in·tan·gi·ble Audio pronunciation of "intangibles" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tnj-bl)
adj.

1. Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
2. Incapable of being realized or defined.
3. Incorporeal.

picnroll

09-02-2005, 02:39 PM

jared15 why don't you take your thoughts over here (http://spursreport.com/).

FromWayDowntown

09-02-2005, 02:40 PM

15.4 - 6.4 - 4.0 - 2.0 - 32.5
16.6 - 6.1 - 3.7 - 1.2 - 34.2

Tinsley was better than Tony Parker in less minutes per game. That basically proves everything I said as true. I gave Parker the slight edge in scoring, as he's a one-trick-pony, but for overall games Tinsley is clearly a superior basketball player and a better point guard.
Here's a good analogy for you Spurs fan...
Tony Parker is to Jerry Stackhouse as Jamaal Tinsley is to Manu Ginobili.

Now who would you rather have, the one-dimensional shot chucker (Stakchouse/Parker) or the do-it-all team player (Manu/Tinsley)?

But Parker isn't a one-dimensional shot chucker. Sometimes I think Indy fans engage in this discussion in an attempt to justify the selection of Tinsley over Parker. It's never particuarly convincing.

What's interesting about the numbers is the fact that none of them account for the styles that the two teams play. Parker's assist numbers are generally not as good as other PG, largely because Parker isn't asked to be a pure distributor, the way a guy like Tinsley is. The Spurs offense is predicated on Duncan's presence drawing double-teams to create space for shooters. They also create space with penetration from both Parker and Ginobili and by running high screen-and-roll plays involving Duncan with either Parker or Ginobili. That means that the Spurs' assist opportunities don't come from the point guard, per se. The assist opportunities, essentially, are distributed throughout the lineup. It takes advantage of the skills of the players who are here, rather than forcing them to play some regimented, PG gathers assists system. Parker will never look great compared to other PG based on assist numbers.

The same is true with steals and rebounds. Parker's steals and rebounds numbers aren't as good as Tinsley's, but that doesn't make him an inferior defender. It could just as easily say that he takes fewer chances and that his team gives up fewer long rebounds (since the Spurs lead the league, by a wide margin, in 3PTA against last season). Parker has become a better and better defender each year in the league. Is he as good as Payton in his heyday? No. But when the Spurs needed a stop at the end of Game 5 of the Finals, Parker defended Rip Hamilton as well as anyone in the league could and forced a horrendous shot without fouling. Which is a better gauge of defensive prowess: coming up with steals because you take chances and break down your own defense or playing within a system and forcing bad shots? I'd take the guy who forces bad shots every day.

Parker's numbers, standing alone, might not overwhelm you, but there's a reason most coaches and GMs in the NBA agree that Parker's overall game makes him one of the top 10 points in the association.

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:40 PM

Look, your team is so superior it should have rolled through the playoffs undefeated last year even without Artest in a straight jacket.

Please explain how you lost without that lame excuse.

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:43 PM

I quit reading right there. How in the HELL is he a bad basketball player? Do you even watch him play? He shuts people down for us. Thats how we win a lot of times. He scores threes. They usually come at good times, too.
Bowen's a bad basketball player because his overall game is atrocious. The guy's a lousy offensive player, a lousy rebounder, and a lousy passer. And even his defense is questionable, not only by me, but by many NBA players who claim he's a very dirty player.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3167

Check ouit Bowen's Yahoo profile. On the right side of the screen they list his scoring, rebounding, and assist numbers vs the average small forward and the league leader. Bowen is well below average in scoring, rebounding, and is right at average in assists. And this is in 32 minutes per game. The NBA average minutes per game is 16 (240/15). :lol

FromWayDowntown

09-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Bowen's a bad basketball player because his overall game is atrocious. The guy's a lousy offensive player, a lousy rebounder, and a lousy passer. And even his defense is questionable, not only by me, but by many NBA players who claim he's a very dirty player.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3167

Check ouit Bowen's Yahoo profile. On the right side of the screen they list his scoring, rebounding, and assist numbers vs the average small forward and the league leader. Bowen is well below average in scoring, rebounding, and is right at average in assists. And this is in 32 minutes per game. The NBA average minutes per game is 16 (240/15). :lol

Because numbers are the sole measure of a player's effectiveness? Maybe Pop needs to concoct some Carlisle-esque bogus defensive stats and then you'll show the dude the respect he deserves.

Oh wait, I forgot, Pop doesn't do that juvenile crap.

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Here's a good analogy for you Spurs fan...
Tony Parker is to Jerry Stackhouse as Jamaal Tinsley is to Manu Ginobili.Wow, that's the worst analogy I've ever seen. You've got the order and positions all wrong.

Props to your entertainment value.

nkdlunch

09-02-2005, 02:46 PM

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:47 PM

Hey Artest shut down an entire team by himself.

Too bad it was the Pacers.

duncan_21

09-02-2005, 02:50 PM

eh, I was going to refute some of these claims, but the thought that tinsley is better then parker is rediculous. Next time bring some head to head stats to back up your argument.

Also look at who tinsley plays for most of the season, the leastern conference.

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:51 PM

You called Jonathan Bender a "solid vet."

:drunk :drunk :drunk
:lmao :lmao :lmao

The Artest Factor

09-02-2005, 02:52 PM

Because numbers are the sole measure of a player's effectiveness? Maybe Pop needs to concoct some Carlisle-esque bogus defensive stats and then you'll show the dude the respect he deserves.

Oh wait, I forgot, Pop doesn't do that juvenile crap.
I never said numbers are the sole measure of a players effectiveness. But when a player is so below average in production, you have to take notice. I'm befuddled how the Spurs have won 3 championships with this guy starting. i guess it just shows you how down the NBA has been as a whole in between the Bulls dynasty breakup and the Shaq/Kobe drama.

Wow, that's the worst analogy I've ever seen. You've got the order and positions all wrong.

Props to your entertainment value.
Not really.
Stackhouse is a slightly better scorer than Manu.
Parker is a slightly better scorer than Tinsley.

Manu has a better overall game than Stackhouse.
Tinsley has a better overall game than Parker.

It all checks out ok to me.

Care to explain what your problem with it is?

picnroll

09-02-2005, 02:52 PM

You're arguing with the widely recognized stupidest poster on RealGM's message board. Good luck

ChumpDumper

09-02-2005, 02:55 PM

Care to explain what your problem with it is?Your problem is you can't read.

"Solid vet."

Phenomanul

09-02-2005, 03:00 PM

He is eluding the question or rather his perception that Manu is "soft"....

Manu was the grit and grind of last year's championship squad.... You go ahead and think Manu is soft and can be pushed around....

Oh yeah Artest might have to break one of Manu's ribs like he did when he couldn't guard an MJ on decline.

That's really the only way he will force a 20-30 FG% on Manu... Manu can get his when he wants them...

And about Bowen's bad game... three times he has shutdown Kobe and outscored him... Artest avoids having to guard other team's elite players to puff up his baloney stats.... Bowen ALWAYS guards the other teams' best perimeter player... ALWAYS.

infinite styles

09-02-2005, 03:03 PM

This has to be the funniest shit that I have read in a while. You claim to be an expert but base your facts solely on stats. But then come back and say that you don't when somebody questions you about intangibles and you come back with the notion that you also look at intangables but stats are the main focus. Wow you back track more than Bill Walton broadcasting the Finals. With all these "hardcore statistics" I'm suprised that ESPN hasn't offered you a show along side Stephen A. and Woody Paige. This is hilarious man your more of a homer then you want to give yourself credit for. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! SMH in disgust.

Duff McCartney

09-02-2005, 03:09 PM

There's a reason Dallas cut him while keeping Tariq Abdul-Wahad.

Yeah...51 million dollars over a partially guaranteed contract. Please....you're a tool man.

TDMVPDPOY

09-02-2005, 03:11 PM

Pacer fans are deluded imo, they think they will come out of the east and beat us in the finals this year, just like last year, i dont care if you have a full team this year, dont make stupid threads like you guys are goin to make the finals and beatin sum western team, put that crackpipe down b4 it gives you internal damage.

vanvannen

09-02-2005, 03:12 PM

There is no way you wrote that load of crap for real. I really hope you are having a good time, otherwise it's just lame.
I know I am. This is so damn ridiculous is hilarious.
Thank you for your post, dude. :elephant

Dex

09-02-2005, 03:20 PM

I stopped when you gave the edge to Tinsley. Have you ever seen the two play against each other? Parker owns him.

Ditto.

I have better things to do with my four minutes. Like bang my head against the wall. :lol

mando6599

09-02-2005, 03:21 PM

Extra Stout

09-02-2005, 03:36 PM

Ah, yes, the player-by-player and bench and coach breakdown. It's the favorite tool that fans use to rationalize to themselves how their team actually is better than the presumptive favorite. I used to do that like 10 years ago.

Coming right after the Finley signing, this is obviously a knee-jerk "No, no, my team's not screwed, there's really hope!!" kind of thing.

Indiana is really good, but not for the reasons listed above. I think even Rick Carlisle would just ignore that crap. He knows what wins basketball games.

mrpach

09-02-2005, 03:46 PM

Flshback?????

Wednesday August 31, 2005 5:45 PM
User is online

You're crazy.

C: Mohammed / Dampier - very big edge to Dallas
PF: Duncan / Nowitzki - slight edge to Dallas
SF: Bowen / Howard - major edge to Dallas
SG: Ginobili / Christie - Ginobili gets edge on offense, Christie gets edge on defense: even
PG: Parker / Terry and Harris - Parker has the edge in experience, Terry and Harris have the edge in talent: even
Bench: Finley, Van Exel, Barry, Horry, Robinson / Stackhouse, Van Horn, Terry/Harris, Armstrong, Diop - very slight edge to San Antonio

imao

ObiwanGinobili

09-02-2005, 03:48 PM

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Oh mY god.....
I just read this whole thread... wow! Thank -you so much ArtestFactor I havn't laughed this hard in days. :lol

dear lord my ribs hurt from laughing....it's just so unbelieveable that you are actually serious.....:lol :lol

"bowen's a bad basketball player" :lmao :lmao
" Pop < Carlisle" :lmao :lmao :lmao
"tinsley < Parker" :lmao :lmao :lmao

whew........ I don;t know what you been :smokin smoking man, but obviously it;s alot better then the stuff we got around here. Since you have obviously left all sense of reality miles behind you.

E20

09-02-2005, 03:53 PM

This is probably the funniest thread EVER. We just need Pooh to come in and defend him.

TwoHandJam

09-02-2005, 03:54 PM

I never said numbers are the sole measure of a players effectiveness. But when a player is so below average in production, you have to take notice. I'm befuddled how the Spurs have won 3 championships with this guy (Bowen) starting. i guess it just shows you how down the NBA has been as a whole in between the Bulls dynasty breakup and the Shaq/Kobe drama.

I think the above quote more or less crystallizes exactly how stunted this poster's basketball knowledge actually is. When you have an admission of ignorance like this, it's hard to keep reading. For those of you who wish to try and educate this poor soul, be my guest but this is where I get off.

FromWayDowntown

09-02-2005, 03:55 PM

I think the above quote more or less crystallizes exactly how stunted this poster's basketball knowledge actually is. When you have an admission of ignorance like this, it's hard to keep reading. For those of you who wish to try and educate this poor soul, be my guest but this is where I get off.

Amen.

sa_butta

09-02-2005, 03:59 PM

Last game in which all players met.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250106024

shot chucking Parker took less shots than Tinsley and scored more points.
:flipoff :owned

spurs_fan_in_exile

09-02-2005, 04:05 PM

This breakdown is primarily going to look at the Spurs lineup, because I know next to nothing about the Pacers. The big difference is that I'm willing to admit, Artest Factor, and not intersperse ignorance with claims of expertise.

Tony Parker vs. Jamal Tinsley
Offense: While statistically Tinsley's a better shooter, Parker is nailing Eva Longoria. I think it's obvious who is the better scorer there. On top of that, Parker's jumper might be on once every 5 or 6 games, but when it is on he looks like the best PG in the league at times. See OT vs. Nuggest in round 1.

Defense: Parker's D has come a long ways in the last few seasons. He has a bad rap as being a poor defender in part because he's the worst defender of the starting five, who just happen to be great defenders. If you want proof of his improving D, take a look at games 5 and 7 when of the Finals when Parker had to guard Rip Hamilton. I still might give Tinsley the edge here, but not by a country mile like you would.

Boards: Please, they're the fucking PG's. Neither of them is a guy like Gary Payton who's rebounding numbers are astronomical for a guard.

Passing: Tinsley might be a better passer, but that's hardly to the Spurs disadvantage. Their system requires their point guard to set up the offense, not to be a quarterback. His assist numbers may be low, but that's hardly his fault. I attribute Tinsley's superior ability to throw to his workouts with trying to throw dustpans like javelins into crowds.

Overall: Parker, because he's nailing Longoria.

Ginobili vs. Artest (even though I've heard tell that Artest is more of a forward)

Offense: Ginobili's midrange game isn't always on fire, but he's an effective and uberclutch three point threat. He's almost as effective as Parker at getting into the paint and he can draw a foul better than anyone in the league. Tell you what. Watch the hard foul that Ginobili simultaneously took from Kenyon Martin and Carmelo Anthony and then ask yourself two questions. 1. Would a soft player bounce back from a mugging like that so easily? (P.S.-He's been taking fouls like that all year, and missed next to no time with injury. Soft enough for ya?) 2. If your boy Artest had been the one to get hit like that, how many years do you think he'd be looking at in prison for biting out Carmelo's throat?

Defense: I think your description of Tinsley's D is good for Ginobili's as well. He's stronger than he looks, even in the post (Anyone remember how Tayshaun Prince was supposed to abuse him in the post? How'd that turn out?) He also takes a charge better than most in the league. Artest is still a great defender, but don't discount Gino's skillz.

Rebounding: Statwise Artest has the edge and he ought to given that he's that much bigger than Manu. Still Ginobili has been known to get to clutch rebounds when the game's on the line.

Passing: Manu is an incredible passer whose circus passes shock defenders and teammates alike. And why is this the least important matchup between the two? Since Parker is such an abyssmal passer someone has to pick up that slack.

Overall: Given that Artest spend 3/4 of the season away from the game and that he's a raving lunatic, I'll go with Ginobili, who is more likely to get people ejected than get ejected.

Bowen vs. Jackson

Offense: Bowen's offense is limited but efficient. He has a slowly developing midrange J, but the corner three is his bread and butter and he hits when it counts. Jackson is one of the streakiest bastards I've ever seen. He's one of those great enigmas who can shoot his team back into a game or shoot it in the foot. I'll give Jackson the edge in this one, but with the caveat that he's a black hole.

Defense: Not even fucking close. Bowen finished second in DPOY voting, third the year before. On both of them I think he was robbed. And you're going to discount that because whiners like Allen and Carter think he's dirty? Guess what spanky? Some folks say the same about Artest. Better take that DPOY trophy back since some players in the league don't like him. Jackson's D is pretty good, but good be better considering his athletic ability.

Rebounding: I'll level with you, I just don't give a fuck abou this one.

Passing: Bowen doesn't really have to handle the ball too much but he's a good guy at making the extra pass on the perimeter to find the open man when Duncan passes out of the the double teams. Jackson has never actually passed the ball in his life. I'm quite sure of that, so don't even try to cite his assist stats to me. He has never, ever passed the ball. At least to another person. I can remember his days with SA when he'd routinely put a few balls into the second row with shitty passing.

Overall: Give me Bowen. Jackson is an asshole, a hothead, a streaky blackhole of a shooter, and immature. Bowen knows his role and plays it great. (P.S.-Jax did shoot the Spurs back into a few playoff games, but most of the hate around here is about the fact that if he hadn't been a turnover machine in said games, the Spurs wouldn't have been in such a deep ass hole to begin with. He started ahead of Ginobili because of the energizing effect Manu brought off the bench. Manu typically finished the games.)

Foster vs. Mohammed: I'm getting tired of going point by point here so I'll make it short and sweet. Foster is very underrated. (True story: My oldest brother had to guard Foster when he played his high school ball in SA. My brother was probably the best defender on a very good squad and Foster still worked him over pretty good. Just thought I would throw my family's brush with greatness in here.) This is really not the matchup where the game would be won or lost. I'll give Foster a slight edge on hands, heart, and hussle.

Tim vs. O'Neal

Don't make me laugh. Tim would work him over like a heavy bag. Jermaine impressed me in the playoffs with his toughness, but in every way Duncan is superior. The biggest problem with your "expert analysis" is not giving Duncan enough props for his passing. His assist numbers might not reflect it since a second pass usually gets made on the perimeter, but nobody gets the ball out of a double team more effectively.

Bench
Are a lot of the guys on the Spurs bench in their twilight years? Yes, but the Spurs are notorious for getting greatness out of old guys. Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis, Mario Elie, Robert Horry are but only a few of the Spurs succes stories. The Pacers bench benefited greatly from getting as much playing time as they did, but the Spurs have them by a country mile on this one.

Pop vs. Carlisle.

Rick did a hell of a job with his squad, but here's the million dollar question. Do you think for a second that any player coached by Pop would have gone into the stands after a fan? Or have hard fouled Ben Wallace in garbage time? Or have stayed out on the court to fight some fans? The answer is no.

Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up.

cheguevara

09-02-2005, 04:12 PM

Pacers don't even deserve a Spurs vs. Pacers breakdown yet.

nkdlunch

09-02-2005, 04:19 PM

WOW, artestfactor is as delusional as Artest himself

Rescueone

09-02-2005, 04:24 PM

Besides just making a fool of yourself, let's clear up some things.
Bowen starts, doesn't come off the bench.
Finley comes off the bench, doesn't start.
Popovich has three, 3, rings. Carlisle, zero, 0.
Please tell me how Carlisle is more "proven" than Popovich. Franchises don't win rings without franchise players, such as Duncan. You say that Pop would not have won these rings without Duncan. So if I apply your theory to the past decade, Phil Jackson would not have won without Jordan and without Shaq. So how is it that Indiana has its franchise player, O'Neal, but has yet to win a ring.

Just please don't post "unbiased" facts until you can fully support each one.

:tu :tu Nicely put! Everyone should just ignore this fool!

Frank Slakd

09-02-2005, 04:58 PM

hmm well Certainly the Pacers and Spurs have been and continue to be one of the top teams in the NBA however any comparison at all is null and void since the current team has not played together in over a year.

Certainly the Spurs have advantages and cause match up problems in certain areas. As do the Pacers in other respects.

No sense though in an overly Homer ill informed Poster comparing the two at this point....in fact the Spurs play Indy twice in the Preseason at least wait until then to get even a inkling of where these teams are currently at.

I am sure everyone is a little biased to some degree, but let's get real
:spin

Mr. Body

09-02-2005, 06:36 PM

As someone mentioned upthread, this joker posted the exact same thread on realgm.com and has been getting crap about it for a while. Which leads me to believe he's spent the last few weeks lovingly retooling it and just added Finley and Van Exel's names in the last couple days. This also doesn't explain all the formatting, grammar, and spelling errors. Who knows why Pacers fans are becoming the worst homers in the league?

The problem with Indiana is that their two best players, Artest and O'Neal, don't rise to the level of the Spurs' two best players, Manu and Duncan. They're quite good and in the case of Artest, we really don't know quite how good he can be (though I believe JO is tapped out on potential). The problem is, neither really has the intangibles. Neither can consistently take over a game on the brink, neither is known for hitting clutch shots, and neither is anything like an on-the-court leader. Reggie Miller, after all, is gone.

The Pacers have a lot of talent, but a lot of head-cases. Their starting five is riddled with dubious mentalities - Tinsley, Jackson, Artest, O'Neal - and it's often only because they have an exceptional coach that they stay competitive at the highest level.

These Pacers homers have a lot of faith in a bench that's done very little exceptional, or has shown flashes in the distant past, or looked good backing up suspended players last year. Yes, they did very well last year. Which is a testament as much to the coach as anybody... in a weaker East. They have guys like Austin Croshere who have underperformed their entire careers (or simply overperformed in one playoff year) and like Jonathan Bender, who for some reason is still considered somebody with the potential of becoming a good player. When in reality he's a bust. Yes, they have a good bench, with good players like Fred Jones, but there's simply no comparison to a bench like the one the Spurs are about to field, which is simply ridiculous.

Anyway, that's a lot to comment on one little troll, but is meant more as general thoughts about the Pacers. A good team. Their huge problem is that their talent level caps off beneath the superstar level. Their second huge problem is that they lack all kinds of intangibles. Their biggest advantage is a terrific coach.

Trainwreck2100

09-02-2005, 06:56 PM

Spurs' Manu Ginobili vs Pacers' Ron Artest
OFFENSE
Both men are average shooters. However Manu's slightly better, but both are so average it's not a major concern. Ginobili is quicker and smaller, meaning he's a better penetrator, however Artest has the post up offense of an All-Star power forward, so that more than cancels out Manus superior quickness.
Winner: Ron Artest, who's versatile and ever-growing offensive repatoire combined iwth his massive size and strength outweighs Manu's superior shooting and quickness.

DEFENSE
Wow. Just...wow! On one hand, we've got the NBA's best defensive player in Ron Artest, a man who held opponents to a rediculous 9.1 ppg on 34% shooting during his last full season. On the other, we've got a player from the Euroleague. Do I really need to go any further? I will. Artest is just too big and strong for a player like Manu to handle. This in my opinion is the single biggest factor between the two teams. The Pacers can realistically shut down the Spurs second best player and there's nothing San Antonio can do about it but sit back and watch in horror. I know Duncan is good, but not good enough to win without a great #2, and he just won't have that here.
Winner: Ron Artest, the best defensive player in the league, win's this matchup by a couple thousand miles.

REBOUNDING
Artest, who's listed at a monsterous 6'7" 252 lb., is a far superior rebounder than the undersized, underweight Manu Ginobili. There's really not much else to say here.
Winner: Artest, by a wide margin.

PASSING
Manu wins this. Artest is an above average passer, with skills he fine tuned on the Queens, NYC playgrounds. He even played point forward at St. Johns. Manu however is one of the best passing shooting guards in the league. He win's this matchup, probably the least important matchup between the two players.
Winner: Manu, by a nose. Albeit a very large nose.

Alright now I'm scared of Artest, he is right on the money with this comparison. It's like my eyes have been opened for the first time, honestly I am scared now.

Note to self,
(a)buy ticket to SA/Indy game
(b)sneak onto lower level
(c)pay guy $50 to throw beer
(d)after beer lands point and laugh and get assaulted and sue for a crapload of money.

Artest problem solved.

TOP-CHERRY

09-02-2005, 07:02 PM

Dear "The Artest Factor",

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Dre_7

09-02-2005, 07:07 PM

Bowen is a bad player??

Lets ask Melo, Ray Allen, Marion, Rip, and Billups hopw bad he is. Last time I checked he pretty much contained all those guys in the playoffs and was a big reason SA won their third title in 7 years! How many titles have Indy won?????

exstatic

09-02-2005, 07:07 PM

:lol Oh, the irony. He picks almost every matchup in favor of the Pacers, but then dings Pop because he's Duncan's towelboy. Hey numbnuts, If the Pacers are so much more talented, what does that make Carlisyle? An incompetent towelboy...

ShoogarBear

09-02-2005, 07:09 PM

DEFENSE
Whether if be his lack of size or strength, or a lack of desire and discipline from his European uprising, Parker just downright refuses to play defense.

I stopped reading at this point. You're a complete imbecile.

gameFACE

09-02-2005, 07:11 PM

Even Spurs homers and NBA fans who only listen to Bill Walton and Tom Tolbert
You gave yourself away right there..........

Rick Carlisle, by far the NBA's most decorated coach since his arrival in the league 4 years ago.
:lol

Dex

09-02-2005, 07:31 PM

Not only is this guy a complete homer, he thinks Garnett is better than Duncan, too. It seems that whole championship thing doesn't count for anything. These guys play just for the stats, I guess.

Hell, the only ring your team has is on Stephen Jackson's finger, and it's got a Spurs logo on it.

Unbiased, my ass. :rolleyes

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/901742/scarecrow_oz.gif
Artest Factor, your village just called, they want their idiot back.

Dex

09-02-2005, 07:35 PM

I could honestly see it going anywhere from Indaian in a sweep

P.S. Put the crackpipe down.

E20

09-02-2005, 07:39 PM

Pass around that doobie over here!!

my2sons

09-02-2005, 07:52 PM

i still smell a rat...this has mouse written all over it

jermaine7fan

09-02-2005, 08:23 PM

I am as big a Pacer fan as they come... and I disagree with some of what he said. Here is the rundown I posted on my Pacers board.

I thouht the Spurs are the one team that could take us out... before they signed Van Exel and Finley. All I can say is... I am reconsidering how much to bet on us (but I will still bet on us to win it all) That is a scary second unit pick-up considering they have already played with each other before in Dallas. I think this was his most deadly destination possibility. He would have just blended into the background more in Miami. Nick and Michael will give San Antonio a swift scoring punch off the bench. We will need our second unit to step up more for them than anyone.

starters
Parker Vs. Tinsley - Parker, but Tinsley has a lot of game too... if he stays un-injured he can post big stats (15.4 ppg, 2.03 spg, 6.4 apg)

Ginobili Vs. Jackson - Ginobili, he is one of the top 5 sg's in the league... but again Stephen is capable of 30 point nights in any given game)

Bowen Vs. Artest - Artest, he is a better defender than Bowen and he is better at scoring too.

Duncan Vs. O'Neal - Duncan, but JO is not far behind... Jermaine is very capable of outplaying Duncan in a game

Mohammad Vs. Foster - Foster, Mohammad and Foster both excelled last year... but I think Foster is slightly ahead of him. He is a poor man's Ben Wallace

bench
Van Exel Vs. Sarunas - Sarunas, I believe Sarunas will be well adjusted come playoff time

Barry Vs. Freddy - Barry, but Freddy has his good days

Finley Vs. Granger - ?, depends on if Granger pans out and/or if Finley stays healthy

Horry Vs. Bender - ?, I'ld give it to Bender IF he stays healthy, but he is not reliable there. They would match up well against each other.

Nesterovic Vs. Harrison - Harrison, he can't rebound and last year he fouled a lot... but he shoots a very high FG%, is an excellent shot blocker, and is as close as they come to Shaq when considering quickness and size (I am not at all implying he is even close to Shaq in terms of skill)

Udrih Vs. Johnson - ?, maybe a slight edge to Johnson - Udrih's a good three point shooter though

Oberto Vs. Pollard - ?, haven't seen Oberto play... although it is not uncommon for an NBA center to be better than Pollard

coach
Carlisle Vs. Pop - Definately Pop, I love Carlisle... but he comes in third to Popp and Larry Brown. But you have to respect what Carlisle did with the squad he had available next year... most people wouldn't have guessed we would make the playoffs... much less take the Pistons to six games.

I really think many of you are underestimating the Pacers ALOT! We were fourth or fifth best team in the playoffs last year - and that was with two injured and one suspended starters. We lost Reggie Miller, but he couldn't do it every night anyway... I fealt he kind of hurt us when we needed him most against DET. And in his place we have gained the next Ginobili (in Sarunas), we had a top 5 draft pick fall into our laps at #17 (in Danny Granger), oh... and we get Ron Artest back... one of the top 5 SF's in the league. I know your coaches and players don't disrespect Indiana's potential... so why do you all?

P.S. - It will be a fun Finals - IND Vs. SAS... who wins? God, only knows!

timvp

09-02-2005, 08:27 PM

Finley Vs. Granger - ?, depends on if Granger pans out and/or if Finley stays healthy

Horry Vs. Bender - ?, I'ld give it to Bender IF he stays healthy, but he is not reliable there. They would match up well against each other.

:lmao

Uh ... I don't even know what to say :rollin

jermaine7fan

09-02-2005, 08:36 PM

:lmao

Uh ... I don't even know what to say :rollin
How about trying to explain why it is so funny. I wasn't joking.

FromWayDowntown

09-02-2005, 08:59 PM

How about trying to explain why it is so funny. I wasn't joking.

In a playoff series, you're honestly believing that Jonathan Bender could even compete with Robert Horry? That's what's funny.

2centsworth

09-02-2005, 09:15 PM

How about trying to explain why it is so funny. I wasn't joking.
I almost feel sorry for you. Were you dropped on your head?

picnroll

09-02-2005, 09:17 PM

In a playoff series, you're honestly believing that Jonathan Bender could even compete with Robert Horry? That's what's funny.
What you never heard about Big Shot John? :rollin

Useruser666

09-02-2005, 09:19 PM

Wait a minute....this was an on the court comparrison? I thought this was a comparrison of team's abilities to run into the stands and kick the crap out of the other teams fans. In that case, the Spurs are the better team at actually playing basketball.

1Parker1

09-02-2005, 09:26 PM

Scoreboard, bitch :)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250106024

Knoxville Spur

09-02-2005, 09:29 PM

The NBA is about matchups.

Tinsley does not matchup well with Parker, he's too fast for anyone. Tinsley can't just overpower Parker, our help defense is too good.

Manu vs. Jackson: Manu shoots better, passes better, and can penetrate better. I'd rather have him on defense also. No contest.

Artest vs. Bowen: Have to go with Artest due to better offensive skills. Bowen is becoming a legendary on the ball defender though.

Duncan vs. JO: Duncan is just too big and bad for little JO to handle. I have not even seen a Pacer fan try argue the point, we all know Duncan > JO.

Center: Let's call it a wash and leave it at that. It's a real waste of time trying to pump up the players at this position, although most are serviceable.

Bench: India has no answer for Horry-NVE-Finley. Get real! Also underrating Barry big time, who played great in the finals. I've never heard of any of India's bench players, that should tell you something!

Coach: You can't argue with 3 rings, even one tiny bit. Pop's players would walk through a wall for him and they check their egos at the door. Xs and Os nobody has anything on him.

If Artest stays stable then IN can give DET and MIA a run in the East. If they somehow make the finals, I'd say Spurs in five, with all due respect.

Brodels

09-02-2005, 09:41 PM

Trainwreck2100

09-02-2005, 10:15 PM

In a playoff series, you're honestly believing that Jonathan Bender could even compete with Robert Horry? That's what's funny.

Maybe he was talking about the reg. season?

Dalamar_the_Dark

09-02-2005, 10:33 PM

Why are all of you arguing about matchups. Matchups mean shit to me. At the end of the day, the game is all about the TEAM! our team beats the Pacers hands down. You wanna know why?

Cause our players are disciplined.
Cause our players are first class players and wont punch fans.
Cause our players listen to Duncan our leader on the court. Whos the Pacers leader? JO Neal or the rapper Artest?
Cause our team is just the better TEAM!

Screw the pacers. they may have talented player but if not for Carlisle, they would stink.

spurster

09-02-2005, 10:37 PM

Don't we all know Tinsley > Parker?

Classic! :)

Knoxville Spur

09-02-2005, 10:47 PM

The Pacers did sign Jasikevicius, and I like that guy. But did they really need a fifth point guard? Aside from Tinsley there three guys, Jones-Johnson-Gill, that I have never heard of. And not one of them stands more than 6-3.

Let have a little more fun:

Bender: 7-0, career 5.6 PPG, 2.2 RPG, and 42% shooter. An absolute bust as already said.

Croshere: 38% FG and 26% 3FG last year. Career 41% FG.

Foster: 6-11, 7 PPG and 9 RPG in 26 MPG last year is respectable.

David Harrison: Who?

Granger: A rookie "steal" 17th pick. We'll see.

Wacko Jacko: An decent player when he's not running into the stands throwing haymakers. 40% FG, only saving grace is 36% 3FG if you let him fire away. We cut this dude due to his attitude, plus he wouldn't sign the prenup.

Pollard: Nice matchup with Rasho. Woohoo.

Artest: I'll keep it strictly basketball, although this guy is the next Rodman. And I dont mean that in a good way. 42% FGs, 31% 3 FGs in 2003-4, last full season. So really he's not a great scorer at 18 PPG, he's just jacking a lot of shots up. Once he shuts down someone on the Spurs, I'll believe he's a great defender. Those shooting percentages are right in line with his career averages also.

Tinsley: Career 40% FGs (actually .399, thank god for rounding), 32% 3 FG. Pretty good player but 9 out of 10 GMs prefer Parker, I would guess. His 15 PPG is largely a function of Artest and Jackson's suspensions, considering its about 6 points higher than the previous 3 years.

JO: Numbers look great. Honestly I have not seen him play much. What little I have seen he strikes me as a little soft for his size. A 6-11 jump shooter, which can be very effective. No 3 point range though. Pretty good shot blocker, but certainly not dominant in the paint. Best rebounding year was 10.5 and only 8.8 last year. Clearly not near the post presence as TD. Have to love how he blossomed after leaving the morons in Portland.

So what do we have? Well for starters this is a poor shooting Pacers team. None of the starters from the 1-3 position shoots more than 42%. This team shot 39.5% last year and 32% from threes. The Spurs were 45% and 36%. And we just added Finley (40% 3FG) and Van Exel (39% 3 FG). Not to mention Horry 45% 3FG and Barry 42% 3FG in the playoffs. Ok I mentioned it.

The Pacers got outrebounded by 2 per game last year. Exact opposite for the Spurs which is a 4 RPG swing. Spurs also block more shots than the Pacers, whose opponents blocked more than they did. Big men = O'Neal, Foster, Pollard, Bender vs. Duncan, Mohammed, Oberto, Nesterovic, Horry. We have much more depth, Bender and Pollard would not even make our roster.

Our team is just way more talented and versatile than the Pacers. If Oberto turns out to be the skilled post player advertised, the Bulls record is in jeopardy. If not, we are still stacked and can burn you from the outside with Bowen-Barry-Ginobli-Finley-Horry-Van Exel-Udrih, that's no less than 7 guys that will kill you from the 3 point line. That creates space for our superior inside game, led by Duncan.

To win at Basketball you have to score. No way the Pacers score more than us with 39% shooting, Artest and Wacko jacking up wild shots. JO's midrange game will not get the Pacers out of the East. I will pull for Jasikevicius, just because he won me over in the Olympics.

Indiana is a solid contender for 3rd place in the East, I will grant you that.

Reggie Miller

09-02-2005, 11:21 PM

The Pacers have a legitimate chance of winning the East, but only becuase the East is a real mess. (By this, I mean more of a mess than usual.)

I have been a Pacers fan my entire life. As a realist, this means that I have seen THE dominant ABA team get its clock cleaned by an ABA rival, the Spurs. (The Spurs have been my "other Conference" favorite for many years.)

To a certain extent, I believe in history and experience. When the Spurs and Pacers entered the NBA, the Pacers were obviously in a better position to win the first "NBA title by former ABA Champion." Thirty years later, the Spurs have three titles, and the Pacers have none.

My point, and I do have one, is this: a successful franchise requires more than players. Even assuming the original post was correct (and it wasn't), the Spurs have won two of the last three NBA titles with more or less the same core team. In that same period, more or less the same core Indiana team has two major accomplishments: 1) led the league in regular season wins for one season 2) set every suspension record known to man.

'nuff said.

Reggie Miller

09-02-2005, 11:36 PM

I was re-reading this thread more closely, and I stumbled onto a fun one. The original poster made the comment that Bruce Bowen was a dirty player.

Obviously, this man is not a real Pacers fan. Bruce learned all of his routines from Reggie...

midgetonadonkey

09-02-2005, 11:44 PM

Is this a joke? Do Pacer's fans really think that they are better than the Spurs??

velik_m

09-03-2005, 03:03 AM

Dingle Barry

09-03-2005, 04:36 AM

http://slyrecords.com/gomeweek157.jpg

The Artest Factor

09-03-2005, 05:14 AM

The Artest Factor

09-03-2005, 05:30 AM

Is this a joke? Do Pacer's fans really think that they are better than the Spurs??
Well, considering the fact that we won a league best 61 games with a younger, less talented team than the one we have now...and consdering your Spurs have one of the five worst starters in the NBA in Bruce Bowen....I'd have to say an honest YES.

Remember, the Spurs didn't beat the Pacers last year. David Stern beat the Pacers. And if you recall correctly, the best team in the NBA on November 19th was clearly the Indiana Pacers. We were on pace for 68 wins, and thats including a loss vs the 76ers which the NBA later apologized over since the officiating was so bad that the game was literally handed to the 76ers.

So yes, not only do I feel the Pacers are better than the overrated Spurs, I feel it's really not even close. Sorry, but your group of washed up "stars" would only scare me if the NBA had a senior citizens tour like in golf. Good luck making it through the 82 game season without atleast 3 of the following players having a stroke or breaking a hip: Brent Barry, Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, or Nick Van Exel.

I was re-reading this thread more closely, and I stumbled onto a fun one. The original poster made the comment that Bruce Bowen was a dirty player.

Obviously, this man is not a real Pacers fan. Bruce learned all of his routines from Reggie...
Reggie Miller was dirty. One of the dirtiest player's who ever lived. I still have love for him, but the truth is the truth.

Don't we all know Tinsley > Parker?

Classic! :)
Well...yeah. See, believe it or not, there's more to basketball than scoring. When you're better than someone at 5/6 of the main aspects of basketball, and the one aspect you lose you lose by very little, there's a good chance you're the better overall player.

Tinsley is a better passer, rebounder, defender, ball handler, and shooter. Parker is a slightly better scorer. You do the math, small fry.

If Parker truly wants to be better than Tinsley, he'll get in the gym and work on his shooting, passing, ball handling, rebounding, and defense. Untill then he'll be known as nothing more than a "Me-First" Speedy Claxton-clone who chokes in big games and is only famous because 14 year old girls think he's "sexy" and because he's dating some C-level actress.

What you never heard about Big Shot John? :rollin
You mean "Big Shot Rob" who got outshot by Regis Philbin on "Live With Regis & Kelly" earlier in the week? LOL. "Big Shot Rob" has made a career out of riding jocks and performing miserably, only to hit a "big shot" in the closing minutes of playoffs games. And by "big shot" I mean standing out on the perimeter doing absolutely nothing, only to have the ball roll to him so he can make a wide open 23' shot. Something not only most NBA players could do, but the majority of casual basketball players could do. I know I've been recorded as hitting 82% from wide open 3point land, and I'm willing to bet that's signifigantly higher than Robert Horry.

MaNuMaNiAc

09-03-2005, 05:57 AM

smeagol

09-03-2005, 05:58 AM

orhe

09-03-2005, 06:20 AM

Look this thread is stupid... basketball is a team game get that into your heads.

Individual abilities should only be used as a basis if there is a clear gap between two teams.

kinda comparing china vs. the united states... the US is so superior individually that a dysfunctional US dream team squad could still win.

in this caes the spurs and the pacers aren't that separated so stop bitching about individual talents.

PS (artest is overrated as hell... can we watch him play for another season before we judge him nowww)

Knoxville Spur

09-03-2005, 08:16 AM

I think sarunas might play as a SG, he's a very good shooter.

I was just waiting for someone to say that, but I thought it would be the retard Artest factor.

He will get abused at the 2 spot, not big enough or quick enough.

Artest factor said nothing to refute my observation that Indy is a horrible shooting team, with mediocre post play to boot.

DesiSpur_21

09-03-2005, 09:44 AM

Welcome to the board Rosen/SAS :lol :lol

The Artest Factor

09-03-2005, 11:17 AM

Wow, you Spurs fans sure are nice people. I come in here trying to get a rise out of you and I'm still greeted. I don't know what to say. Wait I know....

Pacers over Spurs in 5.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 11:20 AM

and I'm still greeted.We're taking in refugees from other boards, though this is more Mariel than Metairie.

marcus

09-03-2005, 11:32 AM

Wow, you Spurs fans sure are nice people. I come in here trying to get a rise out of you and I'm still greeted. I don't know what to say. Wait I know....

Pacers over Spurs in 5.

who cares?, we all know San Antonio is great. Lately we are talking about moves because we want it to be even greater. As i said some times before, the spurs is not like any other team, it is a model organization.

Frank Slakd

09-03-2005, 11:35 AM

:rollin

I was just thinking this morning that what I really needed was an unbiased Spurs/Pacers comparison written by a Pacers fan.

I've been getting really nervous about the Pacers since I learned that they acquired, well, er...nobody of significance in the offseason to date.

Ok I am not sure who you are or how little you know about the NBA.
But any one with Any knowledge all have SA ranked #1 this upcoming year.
With that same note any and all experts have IND ranked #2 with a few #3.

Point being SA and IND when healthy and all players in the game are closely matched with SA at this point having the edge due to the fact of the players of Indiana not having played together consistently like SA has recently.

With that said Indiana's Bench consists of one of the most versatile players in every aspect in Danny Granger.. If you do not know who he is you do not follow or grasp college basketball. David Harrison, who Dominated Andrew Bogut in Preseason Play,was injured last year but showed alot of promise. Sarunas Jasikevicius if you do not know who that is again you do not follow basketball,period.

Again anyone with knowledge is not doubting how great SA team is currently.
But if you want to discount the Pacers as "also-rans" please do so you will gladly join the ranks of the grossly ill-informed.

If you actually realize that Indiana is a legit contender for this upcoming year.
Congrats you must have done your homework.

If you are still not convinced get your head out of your "homer-ass", you are embarassing yourself......' :lol :spin
..

marcus

09-03-2005, 11:41 AM

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 11:45 AM

With that same note any and all experts have IND ranked #2 with a few #3.Really? I'd like to see some links.

Dre_7

09-03-2005, 11:48 AM

Well, considering the fact that we won a league best 61 games with a younger, less talented team than the one we have now...and consdering your Spurs have one of the five worst starters in the NBA in Bruce Bowen....I'd have to say an honest YES.

Remember, the Spurs didn't beat the Pacers last year. David Stern beat the Pacers. And if you recall correctly, the best team in the NBA on November 19th was clearly the Indiana Pacers. We were on pace for 68 wins, and thats including a loss vs the 76ers which the NBA later apologized over since the officiating was so bad that the game was literally handed to the 76ers.

So yes, not only do I feel the Pacers are better than the overrated Spurs, I feel it's really not even close. Sorry, but your group of washed up "stars" would only scare me if the NBA had a senior citizens tour like in golf. Good luck making it through the 82 game season without atleast 3 of the following players having a stroke or breaking a hip: Brent Barry, Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, or Nick Van Exel.

Reggie Miller was dirty. One of the dirtiest player's who ever lived. I still have love for him, but the truth is the truth.

Well...yeah. See, believe it or not, there's more to basketball than scoring. When you're better than someone at 5/6 of the main aspects of basketball, and the one aspect you lose you lose by very little, there's a good chance you're the better overall player.

Tinsley is a better passer, rebounder, defender, ball handler, and shooter. Parker is a slightly better scorer. You do the math, small fry.

If Parker truly wants to be better than Tinsley, he'll get in the gym and work on his shooting, passing, ball handling, rebounding, and defense. Untill then he'll be known as nothing more than a "Me-First" Speedy Claxton-clone who chokes in big games and is only famous because 14 year old girls think he's "sexy" and because he's dating some C-level actress.

You mean "Big Shot Rob" who got outshot by Regis Philbin on "Live With Regis & Kelly" earlier in the week? LOL. "Big Shot Rob" has made a career out of riding jocks and performing miserably, only to hit a "big shot" in the closing minutes of playoffs games. And by "big shot" I mean standing out on the perimeter doing absolutely nothing, only to have the ball roll to him so he can make a wide open 23' shot. Something not only most NBA players could do, but the majority of casual basketball players could do. I know I've been recorded as hitting 82% from wide open 3point land, and I'm willing to bet that's signifigantly higher than Robert Horry.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

mrpach

09-03-2005, 11:49 AM

Lets get over this, pacers fans are in denial, thats all
(i just read that someone said the spurs are overrated :lol, nba just keep giving rings away right?)

picnroll

09-03-2005, 11:53 AM

Career three point shooting %

Barry/Spurs - .402
Bowen/Spurs - .382
Horry/Spurs - .370
Finley/Spurs - .370
Ginobili/Spurs - .363
Van Exel/Spurs - .357
Jone/Pacers - .357 (finally)
Johnson/Pacers - .339
Croshere/Pacers - .337
Jackson/Pacers - .336
Tinsley/Pacers - .317
Artest/Pacers - .316
Parker/Spurs - .315

Boo

09-03-2005, 11:58 AM

With that same note any and all experts have IND ranked #2 with a few #3.

Your a dumbass.

It's mostly Detroit and Miami... that makes indiana back to at least 4th or 5th

Dre_7

09-03-2005, 12:05 PM

I dont know why this guy is tring to compare Indy to a Western Conference team. If I were him, I would worry about their own Conference. They will have a hard time getting out of the east with DET and MIA.

He is just trying to piss some people off. But I dont know if its working. Its just making me laugh. :lol

manubili

09-03-2005, 12:29 PM

Troll, go back to the hole from whence you sprung. You know you wouldn't be here posting your shit if you were so confident that the Pacers were better than our Spurs. You're reaching for every excuse to make yourself feel better about the fact that your so called best baller is more interested in having a rap album than a trophy! http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

Right. This guy is shitting in his pants. What does he want us to say? "Oh, yeah, pacers are way better, we are so lucky to be the champion".

Classic case of whishful thinking.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 12:38 PM

Dude, the Pacers had a grand total of four guys who shot over .400 in the playoffs last season.

Three are gone (Miller, Jones and Davis).

One took four shots a game (Foster).

Their franchise PF shot .365.

Please refrain from comparing him to Duncan in any respect other than height.

ca®lo

09-03-2005, 12:39 PM

As great as Jermaine O'Neal is, there's only 1 player in the NBA clearly superior to Tim Duncan and that's Kevin Garnett.

I STOPPED READING RIGHT THERE.

this kid is on crack.

UNBIASED HUH? what a moron.

SPURS vs PACERS

OVERALL WINNER : SPURS <-- and thats all that matters to me.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 12:49 PM

I don't know, man. I'm convinced. I've already called the Spurs and asked for a refund of my season tickets.

I've also suggested that they contact the NBA and offer to send last year's championship trophy to Indianapolis, since the Pacers proved with their unprecedented 7-2 start last season that no team in the history of the NBA had a legitimate chance to beat them.

. . . . wait, what's that? You say that the 2004-05 Spurs had a better record (8-1) on November 19 than the "invincable" Pacers and were on pace for 73 wins at the same time the Pacers were on pace for 68 wins?

Phenomanul

09-03-2005, 01:07 PM

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Phenomanul

09-03-2005, 01:12 PM

Sarunas Jasikevicius if you do not know who that is again you do not follow basketball,period.

BTW Danny Ferry only knew to pick this guy up because the Spurs have been after him since 2000.....

Yeah we know who he is....

ObiwanGinobili

09-03-2005, 01:32 PM

You mean "Big Shot Rob" who got outshot by Regis Philbin on "Live With Regis & Kelly" earlier in the week? LOL. "Big Shot Rob" has made a career out of riding jocks and performing miserably, only to hit a "big shot" in the closing minutes of playoffs games. And by "big shot" I mean standing out on the perimeter doing absolutely nothing, only to have the ball roll to him so he can make a wide open 23' shot. Something not only most NBA players could do, but the majority of casual basketball players could do. I know I've been recorded as hitting 82% from wide open 3point land, and I'm willing to bet that's signifigantly higher than Robert Horry.

Speaking as a person who watched Regis & Kelly at least 3 times a weekI'd like to point out:
NBA guests on LIve w/Regis & Kelly hardly ever make thier shots.
Shaq, Kobe, DWade, Yao, etc etc..... (ok -you expect that from Shaq)..they all make maybe 1 or 2 shots an appearance.. most of the time none.

Also - what do you mean by "earlier in the week"? Horry was on days after the '05 finals. So either it;s a re-run or you have a bad memory.

And how are you gonna judge a PROVEN CLUTCH player with 6 RINGS based on a 3min. tv appearence that he was late for becasue of a 12hr flight mishap?? The man honestly earned his nickname thru what people have seen of his play.
He ain't a crock of shit. Don't paint him as one just cause your jealous.

ObiwanGinobili

09-03-2005, 01:38 PM

You guys are a bunch of dumb fuckers! I came here to have a discussion with someone outside of the Indiana/Detroit/Miami fan base. All I see on here is a bunch of put-downs from you guys. Thankfully for you all, your organization is 1000 times more classy than any of you. You keep calling us trolls when we are not trying to bash you guys at all. We just want some talk outside of our regular EC circles. If you ask me... you all are trolls on your own board. I hope the people at my posting site do not become overconfident pompous jack-asses like you all if we take the title from you this year! You all SEVERELY underestimate the abilities of the Indiana Pacers. We are on a mission this year and the final stage of it will be against you all. Am I a troll? Nope! Was I hoping to make some friends and have a decent basketball discussion on here? Yes! You all need to take a look in the troll mirror... it is troll city on here! If you read the posts on our Pacers site you would see how realistic we are about who can win it all! Teams with a chance...
IND
DET
MIA
SAS

Those are the top teams in the league... you all appear to see only yourselves as possible candidates. IMO SAS and IND have the highest chances. We gave you a warning shot by trying to explain to you all how good of a team we really have... but you are to busy looking at yourselves in the mirror to notice. I cannot wait to see how much your tune will change come June!

Jermaine7
I saw your original post in this thread and I've got to say I respect it. It's reality mixed with a bit of Indylove. :tu
Just like most of the posts here are (or strive to be) a bit of reality mixed with a bit of Spurs love.
I believe you stepped into this thread after "our" fevers had allready been raised by the original poster.. it was just a bad situation and I'm sorry if you got some of the flack.
But trust me - this is a very awesome forum. Most of our discussions are just as classy as the orginazation we love. We have quite a few regular posters here who are from other teams (lakers fans, suns fans, mavericks fans, heat fans... and even a portland fan).
I'm sure if you check out the other threads and stick around a bit you'll find it;s worth your time. :D

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 01:48 PM

Man!!! I can't decide what to think about you all! Is it just this thread that makes you all seem so cocky and blind? I have seen some good posts from you all on other threads... did the first post piss you all off so much that you are just bashing our franchise over one biased pacer fans thoughts? I know your coach, team, and organization see the Pacers as a deadly opponent... it is very sad that none of you seem to. I am not saying the Pacers are going to wipe the floor with you, or even that we ARE necessarily going to beat you... but we do have a chance at bringing you down. If you can't see that it is because you are too busy looking at yourselves in the mirror. I wish your team the best of luck... but you all need a lesson in the fact that you aren't the only race horse in town. Don't let your heads balloon too much... they just may pop if a team defeats you this year!

P.S.- All many people on here see is that one horrible night in Detroit last year for Artest and Jackson. Are you all expecting another situation like that? Cause it won't happen. If you have heard any interviews lately you would know exactly how focused our team is on preventing that from happening again. And I read on here that someone said Pop got the advantage at the coaching spot because he can control his players. Pop gets the advantage cause he is the better coach. He wouldn't have been able to stop that happening either. And also read a blast at Artest for fouling hard in junktime of a game... THE MOST UNVIEWED EVENT FROM THAT NIGHT WAS BEN FOULING RON JUST AS HARD ON THE OTHER END OF THE FLOOR... IMMEDIATELY BEFORE RON RETALIATED WITH THAT HARD FOUL! If you ask me Ron was fifth in responsibility for that fight escalating to what it did.

FIRST
Ben Wallace
-hard foul in junk time on Ron
-choke pushing Ron after he retaliated
-throwing a towel at Ron while he was laying down ( I believe the fan would have never thought about throwing something at Ron if he hadn't just seen Ben do it)

SECOND
NBA Officials
-for not ejecting and removing Ben and Ron from the court immediately!!! Have you ever seen two players be aloud to stay on court with each other after fighting for that long. It was like two minutes between the choke push and Ron running to the stands... they should have both been in the locker room by then.

THIRD
Stephen Jackson
- For throwing the first punch! Ron ran up in there like a mad man, but he did not swing until after Stephen had started the actual brawl. Ron just pinned the man down... he did not attempt to beat him!

FOURTH
Detroit security
- Their response time was rediculous!!! There are literally 200 to 300 people assigned to stop shit like this, whether they be police, security, or ushers. And it took at least two minutes for any of them to break anything up! There were fans rushing the court and throwing chairs and the security was more afraid of the Pacers players doing something!

FIFTH
Ron Artest
- For retaliating on Ben for the previous hard foul
- For leaving the court and not leaving it up to the professionals to get the guy who threw the cup. (He did not go in there swinging... he pinned a fan down... Vernon Maxwell did far worse and only got a ten game suspension)

Sorry had to get that off my chest. My point to all of that is... it won't happen again... so don't think our roster will be as limited this year. You all need to keep an eye on us... we could be your most deadly opponent!

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 01:50 PM

Ron doesn't shoot over .400 in the playoffs either....

Indy is good, but their fans are getting ahead of themselves.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 01:52 PM

Jermaine7
I saw your original post in this thread and I've got to say I respect it. It's reality mixed with a bit of Indylove. :tu
Just like most of the posts here are (or strive to be) a bit of reality mixed with a bit of Spurs love.
I believe you stepped into this thread after "our" fevers had allready been raised by the original poster.. it was just a bad situation and I'm sorry if you got some of the flack.
But trust me - this is a very awesome forum. Most of our discussions are just as classy as the orginazation we love. We have quite a few regular posters here who are from other teams (lakers fans, suns fans, mavericks fans, heat fans... and even a portland fan).
I'm sure if you check out the other threads and stick around a bit you'll find it;s worth your time. :DOK... I forgive... sorry for ranting in my last three posts! I was quite ticked at the time. Maybe I should just talk NBA for a while until you all and I cool down from this thread! :angel Again... I am sorry for ranting... I am sure you all are not bad people... I'll give you a second chance, if you will give me one.

Manu'sMagicalLeftHand

09-03-2005, 01:56 PM

Spurs vs Pacers - Unbiased Detailed Breakdown

Jermaine O' Neal/ Sean Marks: Big Edge for Marks
Jeff Foster/ Rasho Nesterovic: Big Edge for Rasho
Stephen Jackson/ Brent Barry: Big Edge for Barry
Ron Artest/ Michael Finley: Huge Edge for Finley
Jamaal Tinsley/ Beno Udrih: Big Edge for Udrih

There you go, problem solved, end of thread.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 02:00 PM

Jermaine O' Neal/ Sean Marks: Big Edge for Marks
Jeff Foster/ Rasho Nesterovic: Big Edge for Rasho
Stephen Jackson/ Brent Barry: Big Edge for Barry
Ron Artest/ Michael Finley: Huge Edge for Finley
Jamaal Tinsley/ Beno Udrih: Big Edge for Udrih

There you go, problem solved, end of thread.
OK... that is ALL rediculous and TOTALLY untrue... I hope you weren't being serious... If so... you are severely retarded. Especially the O'Neal and Marks thing... you would be called a troll for posting that on my board! How... aw forget it... that comparison and take on the situation is LUDACRIS! You guys do have quite a few matchup advantages over us... but none of these are even remotely accurate!

Manu'sMagicalLeftHand

09-03-2005, 02:01 PM

OK... that is ALL rediculous and TOTALLY untrue... I hope you weren't being serious... If so... you are severely retarded. Especially the O'Neal and Marks thing... you would be called a troll for posting that on my board! You guys do have severely matchup advantages over us... but none of these are even remotely accurate!

Lol, it's called tongue in cheek, chill out, man. :smokin

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 02:02 PM

Lol, it's called tongue in cheek, chill out, man. :smokin
OK... :smokin

picnroll

09-03-2005, 02:33 PM

Jermaine7fan when you step into a thread like the idiot The Artest Factor started you might as well expect as a Pacer fan to get caught in the crossfire. This is not the thread for objectivity. That said the Pacers suck. :lol

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 02:34 PM

FIFTH
Ron Artest
- For retaliating on Ben for the previous hard foul
- For leaving the court and not leaving it up to the professionals to get the guy who threw the cup. (He did not go in there swinging... he pinned a fan down... Vernon Maxwell did far worse and only got a ten game suspension)

Sorry had to get that off my chest. My point to all of that is... it won't happen again... so don't think our roster will be as limited this year. You all need to keep an eye on us... we could be your most deadly opponent!

That is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If Ron Artest had just kept his cool at any one of several points along the way, nothing would have happened and we'd all know what Indy's roster might be capable of.

It's not that hard to just walk away from a hard foul or even a cheap shot. It doesn't impugn your manhood or diminish your credibility. Look at the repeated hard fouls and unnecessary contact that Ginobili took during the playoffs (and even at times during the season). Manu faced the exact same choices that Artest faced, and he simply dusted himself off, went to the free throw line and made the opponents pay. He was the bigger man. In doing that, nothing remotely similar to what happened in Detroit happened in any Spurs games. Had Manu acted like Artest did when Melo laid him out in Denver, that arena would have exploded the same way that the Palace did in November. Because Manu didn't act like a jackass, nothing happened.

Artest apologism is ridiculous. It's not like this was the first time that Artest blew his stack, and like all of the other times, had he just maintained some self-discipline, everything would have been cool. He had that opportunity and he blew it. He gets zero sympathy from me, and he's first on the acountability list for what happened.

Johnny_Blaze_47

09-03-2005, 03:35 PM

Ron Artest, the NBA's most dangerous criminal.

There, I fixed it for you.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 03:47 PM

I know your coach, team, and organization see the Pacers as a deadly opponent...
Aww, sweetheart... You don't seriously believe they mean that, do you?

;)

Seriously, though. The Pacers have proven absolutely nothing, so you can't really blame us for not taking them seriously and laughing at you guys. If and when the Pacers prove to be the best in the East, we'll talk. Until that day comes, you seriously cannot expect us to feel threatened by your team.

:)

Brutalis

09-03-2005, 03:55 PM

Aside from** the fact that this guy is just arrogant..

Since when is Indiana good enough to compare to us? Try showing it one year. Just one year is all I ask.

ObiwanGinobili

09-03-2005, 03:56 PM

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 04:03 PM

http://slyrecords.com/gomeweek157.jpg
I can't emphasize enough how much I loathe and detest Artest's egotistical and idiotic way of thinking and acting.

When I saw his interview on one of those morning shows waving his CD at the camera like a dimwitted moron, I almost spat at the TV. What a cretin.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:19 PM

That is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If Ron Artest had just kept his cool at any one of several points along the way, nothing would have happened and we'd all know what Indy's roster might be capable of.

It's not that hard to just walk away from a hard foul or even a cheap shot. It doesn't impugn your manhood or diminish your credibility. Look at the repeated hard fouls and unnecessary contact that Ginobili took during the playoffs (and even at times during the season). Manu faced the exact same choices that Artest faced, and he simply dusted himself off, went to the free throw line and made the opponents pay. He was the bigger man. In doing that, nothing remotely similar to what happened in Detroit happened in any Spurs games. Had Manu acted like Artest did when Melo laid him out in Denver, that arena would have exploded the same way that the Palace did in November. Because Manu didn't act like a jackass, nothing happened.

Artest apologism is ridiculous. It's not like this was the first time that Artest blew his stack, and like all of the other times, had he just maintained some self-discipline, everything would have been cool. He had that opportunity and he blew it. He gets zero sympathy from me, and he's first on the acountability list for what happened.Ron has issues with anger... I don't deny that... I am just saying that everything that everyone else did wrong that night was worse than what Ron did... Ron pinned a man's head to a seat... he did not throw a punch or a kick until fans started coming at him on the court... where security was still no where to be found! Look at what everyone else on that list did wrong... I think they are worse than what Ron did. Vernon Maxwell straight up ran into the stands swinging and started taking people out!!! What did he get??? 10 game suspension!!! And he had not been physically abused by anyone at that point!!! Ron had been fouled hard... choke pushed... had a towel thrown at his face... and then a plastic cup with beer in it hit him in the face!!! You try not retaliating when all that just happened to you in the last 2 minutes!!! I am personally amazed that a guy with anger issues like Ron Artest has... made it through that many things before he lashed out!

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:22 PM

I can't emphasize enough how much I loathe and detest Artest's egotistical and idiotic way of thinking and acting.

When I saw his interview on one of those morning shows waving his CD at the camera like a dimwitted moron, I almost spat at the TV. What a cretin.
Have you heard him rap yet? He honestly isn't that bad... by no means do I think he is gonna sell out any stadiums... but he doesn't suck. And if you were Ron Artest... you'ld be promoting your CD too.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:24 PM

Aside from** the fact that this guy is just arrogant..

Since when is Indiana good enough to compare to us? Try showing it one year. Just one year is all I ask.They may do that for you this year... we were poised to have a championship year last year... and our roster has only improved since then. And I hope you are not refering to me as arrogant... cause I haven't stated that we will beat you... I said we can beat you...

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 04:25 PM

Ron has issues with anger... I don't deny that... I am just saying that everything that everyone else did wrong that night was worse than what Ron did... Ron pinned a man's head to a seat... he did not throw a punch or a kick until fans started coming at him on the court... where security was still no where to be found! Look at what everyone else on that list did wrong... I think they are worse than what Ron did. Vernon Maxwell straight up ran into the stands swinging and started taking people out!!! What did he get??? 10 game suspension!!! And he had not been physically abused by anyone at that point!!! Ron had been fouled hard... choke pushed... had a towel thrown at his face... and then a plastic cup with beer in it hit him in the face!!! You try not retaliating when all that just happened to you in the last 2 minutes!!! I am personally amazed that a guy with anger issues like Ron Artest has... made it through that many things before he lashed out!

What a load of BS. Funny you left out the part about the idiot lying down on the tables completely disrespecting the arena and the fans before getting a plastic cup thrown at him.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 04:28 PM

What a load of BS. Funny you left out the part about the idiot lying down on the tables completely disrespecting the arena and the fans before getting a plastic cup thrown at him.

and wholly failed to say anything about the marked difference between the way that Artest handled his situation versus the way Manu handled the situation in Denver.

It's telling.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 04:28 PM

Have you heard him rap yet? He honestly isn't that bad... by no means do I think he is gonna sell out any stadiums... but he doesn't suck. And if you were Ron Artest... you'ld be promoting your CD too.
Who the hell said he sucks? And to be honest with you, I have no intention of finding out whether he sucks or not.

And about his promotion... Dude, seriously. This was DAYS after the incident, and people are trying to interview him and let him clear things up, and what does he do at the end? Waves his CDs and tells people to buy it. You cannot be more dimwitted than that.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 04:34 PM

Ron had been fouled hard... choke pushed... had a towel thrown at his face... and then a plastic cup with beer in it hit him in the face!!! You try not retaliating when all that just happened to you in the last 2 minutes!!! I am personally amazed that a guy with anger issues like Ron Artest has... made it through that many things before he lashed out!

And Artest was "choke pushed" only after he retaliated aginst Wallace, which was entirely his choice. Wallace didn't push him and then choke push him without any action from Artest in between those events.

Had Artest not retaliated -- had he let the officials call the flagrant or technical or whatever on Wallace, gone to the line, shot his free throws, and gone home, none of the bad stuff would have happened. All of the bad stuff came only because of what happened after his retaliation.

Again, I point to the example of Manu getting thrown to the floor in Denver with contact that was much more significant than Wallace's meaningless push. Had Manu responded, with the way the crowds in Denver were already treating him, the Palace might have looked like a minor scrap. Instead, Manu acted like a man and let the officials take care of the problem. He got himself off the floor, shot his free throws and moved along from there. No reaction from Manu, no melees.

It was Ron's choice to respond. That's why he's got to bear as much or more responsibility than anyone else in that melee. I've never understood why some Pacers fans don't hold him accountable for that decision.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 04:42 PM

^Exactly. The hard fouls Manu went through were ridiculous and way harder than Artest's. But he wasn't an idiot like Artest. He didn't even look at Melo when he did that. He just got up and was the same class-act he's always been known to be.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:50 PM

Aww, sweetheart... You don't seriously believe they mean that, do you?

;)

Seriously, though. The Pacers have proven absolutely nothing, so you can't really blame us for not taking them seriously and laughing at you guys. If and when the Pacers prove to be the best in the East, we'll talk. Until that day comes, you seriously cannot expect us to feel threatened by your team.

:)We have been in the top of the East for the last decade... we are one of the few teams who have had successful seasons for the last decade. But yes... your team has always been mentioned as the best for the last decade on the Pacers posting site. We have had much less luck than you guys have had in the playoffs. We have had injury problems for the last two seasons at the end... and I assure you that is a trend that will not happen every year. Jermaine and Tinsley have both been injured the last two playoff attempts. Oh, and of course we did not have Ron last season.

And you say we haven't proven anything???

Open your eyes and take a look at what my team accomplished last season... while we were going through hell...

We had only 6 available players for one game... we had over 400 missed games combined for our players from injury and suspensions... and we still made the playoffs over the Cavaliers and many other teams...

Then in the playoffs...
We beat the Boston Celtics in a game 7 on their floor...

When then took Detroit to six games with the following roster...
PG- injured Tinsley
SG- old and very tired and unable to contribute every night Reggie Miller
SF- Stephen Jackson
PF- A one armed left hand available Jermaine O'Neal
C- An old Dale Davis
bench
-A beast... Jeff Foster
-James Jones... who we hated to see leave to PHX
-broken-fingered Fred Jones
-Anthony Johnson
-Austin Croshere... sporting 4 injuries at once... and still trying

That's it

We did after all take Detroit to six games... only one less than what your team accomplished... AND the additions to that team could potentially be greater than your additions...
Sarunas>Oberto
Artest>Finley
Granger could be> Van Exel
and Jonathan Bender is supposed to actually play for us this year too (Jermaine O'Neal claims that when he can play... he is the most skilled player on our team)

Imagine what would have happened to your team if the same bad luck were to befall you...
Your in the playoffs with...
PG- First time playing in three months and still pretty injured Parker
SG- A 40 year old Manu Ginobili
SF- Brent Barry (Bowen is suspended in this scenario)
PF- A one handed (left handed) Tim Duncan
C- An old Nazr
-An improved Nesterovic
-Brent Barry
-Broken fingered Udrih
-Horry sporting four injuries at once... and still trying...
MY QUESTION OF THE DAY???
DO ANY OF YOU BELIEVE YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN DETROIT TO 6 GAMES IF THAT WAS THE ROSTER YOU HAD TO PLAY WITH???

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:51 PM

What a load of BS. Funny you left out the part about the idiot lying down on the tables completely disrespecting the arena and the fans before getting a plastic cup thrown at him.I forgot that it was a crime... or an NBA rule that you cannot do that... at least he wasn't trying to fight Ben Wallace... who had fouled him... choke pushed him... thrown a towel in his face...

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:53 PM

Who the hell said he sucks? And to be honest with you, I have no intention of finding out whether he sucks or not.

And about his promotion... Dude, seriously. This was DAYS after the incident, and people are trying to interview him and let him clear things up, and what does he do at the end? Waves his CDs and tells people to buy it. You cannot be more dimwitted than that.I agree he is a moron in real life situations... I hate watching him give interviews... he looks so much better playing ball

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 04:56 PM

and wholly failed to say anything about the marked difference between the way that Artest handled his situation versus the way Manu handled the situation in Denver.

It's telling.I did not know Manu had something like that happen to him... but Manu is a stand-up guy... Ron has anger issues... plus had Manu just been hammered... choke-pushed... had a towel thrown in his face... and then been hit by something? Nope. But I still believe Manu would have handled it better than Ron did. No way Manu would ever jet into the stands. Maybe if someone was kidnapping his child or beating his wife.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 04:59 PM

I did not know Manu had something like that happen to him... but Manu is a stand-up guy... Ron has anger issues... plus had Manu just been hammered... choke-pushed... had a towel thrown in his face... and then been hit by something? Nope. But I still believe Manu would have handled it better than Ron did. No way Manu would ever jet into the stands. Maybe if someone was kidnapping his child or beating his wife.

Good to see you were paying attention to the Spurs, as a basis to make the comparisons that you're offering in this thread. The play in question happened in a playoff game. If you didn't even watch playoff games, it seems unlikely to me that you can make any type of meaningful comparisons.

Nevertheless, thanks for completely missing the point. Manu didn't face a "choke-push" or a towel in his face because he didn't respond. Manu went about his business and that was that. Had Ron just gone about his business, there wouldn't have been a riot.

It was on Ron. He chose to respond and, ultimately, to undertake criminal actions, regardless of what brought those actions about.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:00 PM

Jonathan Bender is supposed to actually play for us this year tooPacerfans still don't get that they lose any credibility they might have earned when they say those magic words:

Jonathan Bender.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:00 PM

And Artest was "choke pushed" only after he retaliated aginst Wallace, which was entirely his choice. Wallace didn't push him and then choke push him without any action from Artest in between those events.

Had Artest not retaliated -- had he let the officials call the flagrant or technical or whatever on Wallace, gone to the line, shot his free throws, and gone home, none of the bad stuff would have happened. All of the bad stuff came only because of what happened after his retaliation.

Again, I point to the example of Manu getting thrown to the floor in Denver with contact that was much more significant than Wallace's meaningless push. Had Manu responded, with the way the crowds in Denver were already treating him, the Palace might have looked like a minor scrap. Instead, Manu acted like a man and let the officials take care of the problem. He got himself off the floor, shot his free throws and moved along from there. No reaction from Manu, no melees.

It was Ron's choice to respond. That's why he's got to bear as much or more responsibility than anyone else in that melee. I've never understood why some Pacers fans don't hold him accountable for that decision.The problem is the officials were not doing their jobs...
-they did not call a flagrant on Ben on the other end...
and they did not immediately eject Artest and/or Ben Wallace... like they are supposed to... and they did not eject Jackson when he was doing his fight dance on the court prior to anything being thrown... towel or cup. I am sorry, but the situation with Manu was far different than the one with Ron. In many different ways.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:02 PM

The problem is the officials were not doing their jobs.Yeah, they threw Ron into the stands!

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:03 PM

Good to see you were paying attention to the Spurs, as a basis to make the comparisons that you're offering in this thread. The play in question happened in a playoff game. If you didn't even watch playoff games, it seems unlikely to me that you can make any type of meaningful comparisons.

Nevertheless, thanks for completely missing the point. Manu didn't face a "choke-push" or a towel in his face because he didn't respond. Manu went about his business and that was that. Had Ron just gone about his business, there wouldn't have been a riot.

It was on Ron. He chose to respond and, ultimately, to undertake criminal actions, regardless of what brought those actions about.
I know that no riot would have happened had he not left the scorers tables... my point is that Ron did just as bad a job as everyone else involved and described by me earlier... my problem is that Ron is the only one still taking heat for it.

And read closely what I have written about Manu...

PS - I was in Vegas during the Finals... only way I would have been watching would have been if the Pacers were in it. You would have done the same. And I unlike you... do not underestimate your teams abilities. And I do remember seeing that on ESPN... I thought you were refering to an instance where Manu had had something thrown at him.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:03 PM

We have been in the top of the East for the last decade... we are one of the few teams who have had successful seasons for the last decade. But yes... your team has always been mentioned as the best for the last decade on the Pacers posting site. We have had much less luck than you guys have had in the playoffs. We have had injury problems for the last two seasons at the end... and I assure you that is a trend that will not happen every year. Jermaine and Tinsley have both been injured the last two playoff attempts. Oh, and of course we did not have Ron last season.

And you say we haven't proven anything???

Open your eyes and take a look at what my team accomplished last season... while we were going through hell...

We had only 6 available players for one game... we had over 400 missed games combined for our players from injury and suspensions... and we still made the playoffs over the Cavaliers and many other teams...

Then in the playoffs...
We beat the Boston Celtics in a game 7 on their floor...

When then took Detroit to six games with the following roster...
PG- injured Tinsley
SG- old and very tired and unable to contribute every night Reggie Miller
SF- Stephen Jackson
PF- A one armed left hand available Jermaine O'Neal
C- An old Dale Davis
bench
-A beast... Jeff Foster
-James Jones... who we hated to see leave to PHX
-broken-fingered Fred Jones
-Anthony Johnson
-Austin Croshere... sporting 4 injuries at once... and still trying

That's it

We did after all take Detroit to six games... only one less than what your team accomplished... AND the additions to that team could potentially be greater than your additions...
Sarunas>Oberto
Artest>Finley
Granger could be> Van Exel
and Jonathan Bender is supposed to actually play for us this year too (Jermaine O'Neal claims that when he can play... he is the most skilled player on our team)

Imagine what would have happened to your team if the same bad luck were to befall you...
Your in the playoffs with...
PG- First time playing in three months and still pretty injured Parker
SG- A 40 year old Manu Ginobili
SF- Brent Barry (Bowen is suspended in this scenario)
PF- A one handed (left handed) Tim Duncan
C- An old Nazr
-An improved Nesterovic
-Brent Barry
-Broken fingered Udrih
-Horry sporting four injuries at once... and still trying...
MY QUESTION OF THE DAY???
DO ANY OF YOU BELIEVE YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN DETROIT TO 6 GAMES IF THAT WAS THE ROSTER YOU HAD TO PLAY WITH???
I understand all that, but all you're doing is spewing out "Ifs" after "Ifs" of things that "could've happened if..." That "would've happened if..." That "didn't happen because...".

You also have to understand that UNTIL the Pacers beat an Eastern Conference team and make it to the finals at last, you would have proven you're the best in the East.

Yeah, I understand your frustration, and yes, I understand you had a lot of things going bad for your team, but regardless of what didn't happen, and what could've happened "if", your team has YET to prove anything.

You do understand that don't you?

Now, good for you that your team will (hopefully) be normal next year, and I don't blame you for looking forward to the season, but I repeat, let your team prove their hype, and then we'll talk.

Until that day comes, expect to see lots of these in response to your posts:

:lol :lmao

:)

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 05:03 PM

The problem is the officials were not doing their jobs...
-they did not call a flagrant on Ben on the other end...
and they did not immediately eject Artest and/or Ben Wallace... like they are supposed to... and they did not eject Jackson when he was doing his fight dance on the court prior to anything being thrown... towel or cup. I am sorry, but the situation with Manu was far different than the one with Ron. In many different ways.

My ass. Manu gave the officials time to do their jobs by choosing not to retaliate. With time, the offiicals called the flagrant and things went as they should have, with no riots. It's precisely the same situation, just handled much much differently and far more responsibly.

Artest didn't even go to the ground, but immediately went after Wallace, which what precipitated all hell breaking loose.

Whatever you do, be sure to rationalize any criminal behavior that involves a player on your team. Had the roles been reversed, you'd be crucifying Ben Wallace for doing things like Artest did.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 05:06 PM

I know that no riot would have happened had he not left the scorers tables... my point is that Ron did just as bad a job as everyone else involved and described by me earlier... my problem is that Ron is the only one still taking heat for it.

Because Ron is the one who had the opportunity to be sure that none of it happened.

Players have pushed other players since the beginning of NBA time. Only when Wallace pushed Artest and when Artest responded like he did, has the event become the riot that we all saw in Detroit.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:06 PM

Pacerfans still don't get that they lose any credibility they might have earned when they say those magic words:

Jonathan Bender.
That is a troll statement my friend...

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:07 PM

I forgot that it was a crime... or an NBA rule that you cannot do that...
No, it's called having common sense.

You'd be lying if you told me you wouldn't be angry if a player from your rival team laid down like Artest did in your own arna, disrespecting the hell out of the fans and your team.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:11 PM

plus had Manu just been hammered... choke-pushed... had a towel thrown in his face... and then been hit by something? Nope. .
Difference: Manu would've never laid down on the tables, thus would not have had a cup thrown at him...

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:12 PM

That is a troll statement my friend.Were it an Indy board an unprovoked perhaps - but here it is what it is: the truth.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:14 PM

I understand all that, but all you're doing is spewing out "Ifs" after "Ifs" of things that "could've happened if..." That "would've happened if..." That "didn't happen because...".

You also have to understand that UNTIL the Pacers beat an Eastern Conference team and make it to the finals at last, you would have proven you're the best in the East.

Yeah, I understand your frustration, and yes, I understand you had a lot of things going bad for your team, but regardless of what didn't happen, and what could've happened "if", your team has YET to prove anything.

You do understand that don't you?

Now, good for you that your team will (hopefully) be normal next year, and I don't blame you for looking forward to the season, but I repeat, let your team prove their hype, and then we'll talk.

Until that day comes, expect to see lots of these in response to your posts:

:lol :lmao

:)You guys are the ones that don't get it... I am simply asking IF (IF, IF, IF) that happened to your team... do you think you guys could have taken Detroit to six games last year... I am just trying to get you all to see that Indiana will be a power house this year... one that COULD rival your own... You guys have not experienced the bad luck we have... had you... I would still consider you guys contenders this year... you guys don't respect what Indiana will be this year... I am trying to get it through to you... Don't make me bring out the I told you so's come June... I want you all to be on the same page with me when we are facing you in the Finals. I promise you that I am not a troll. I will be praising you then... as I have been praising you before... the only bad things I have said about your team is potential matchup problems for you... you guys have been bashing my team horribly. Some of you say it is due to that guy who started this thread... but you are still being mean to me and dumping on my team... I have not dumped on yours once!

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:15 PM

My ass. Manu gave the officials time to do their jobs by choosing not to retaliate. With time, the offiicals called the flagrant and things went as they should have, with no riots. It's precisely the same situation, just handled much much differently and far more responsibly.

Artest didn't even go to the ground, but immediately went after Wallace, which what precipitated all hell breaking loose.

Whatever you do, be sure to rationalize any criminal behavior that involves a player on your team. Had the roles been reversed, you'd be crucifying Ben Wallace for doing things like Artest did.
The officials had 3 minutes at least to clear those guys out... put on your glasses and see how different those two situations were.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:18 PM

Because Ron is the one who had the opportunity to be sure that none of it happened.

Players have pushed other players since the beginning of NBA time. Only when Wallace pushed Artest and when Artest responded like he did, has the event become the riot that we all saw in Detroit.
Ron did not respond to the choke push... he laid down for Christ's sake... and you talk about him like he should be jailed for life... he did run into the stands... but he was not swinging... he held a man down. Again... Vernon Maxwell did far more damage in the stands than Ron did. And again... Maxwell got 10 games.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:20 PM

No, it's called having common sense.

You'd be lying if you told me you wouldn't be angry if a player from your rival team laid down like Artest did in your own arna, disrespecting the hell out of the fans and your team.Explain in what aspect that is disrespectful?

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:21 PM

You guys are the ones that don't get it... I am simply asking IF (IF, IF, IF) that happened to your team... do you think you guys could have taken Detroit to six games last year... I am just trying to get you all to see that Indiana will be a power house this year... one that COULD rival your own... You guys have not experienced the bad luck we have... had you... I would still consider you guys contenders this year... you guys don't respect what Indiana will be this year... I am trying to get it through to you... Don't make me bring out the I told you so's come June... I want you all to be on the same page with me when we are facing you in the Finals. I promise you that I am not a troll. I will be praising you then... as I have been praising you before... the only bad things I have said about your team is potential matchup problems for you... you guys have been bashing my team horribly. Some of you say it is due to that guy who started this thread... but you are still being mean to me and dumping on my team... I have not dumped on yours once!
Sorry if we come off that way, but anyone who defends Artest's actions deserves the pounding you're getting. :D

About the "ifs" about our team, I don't look at them, because obviously, they are all in the past. I seriously don't give a damn about what could've happened had we not been the team we were last year. Now it's your turn to understand THAT.

And no matter how much you try to make it seem like we wouldn't have won the Championship had we played against a healthy Pacer team, I don't really care.

I do think your team will be very good nxt yr. In fact, in the poll about the Eastern finals teams, I voted for your team. But I can't really respect much a team that hasn't proven anything. And let me be clarify that before you go into a rant about it: By "proven anything" I mean at least stepping into a Finals court.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 05:22 PM

The officials had 3 minutes at least to clear those guys out... put on your glasses and see how different those two situations were.

So it's the fault of the NBA officials that Ron Artest couldn't control his temper? Of course, because it couldn't possibly be little Ronnie's fault that he acted like a complete nimrod with no restraint or self-discipline. :rolleyes

Do you have similar excuses for other criminals as well?

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:22 PM

You guys have not experienced the bad luck we have.Look, saying that means you simply don't know much about our team. You signed a nutcase, he went nuts.

We sign nutcases, just not in groups of 4 or 5.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:23 PM

Difference: Manu would've never laid down on the tables, thus would not have had a cup thrown at him...
Again... Manu is a standup guy... do you think Ron thought he would continue to be physically abused on that table...nope but it still happened. I don't think he did such horrible acts as you all make them out to be... he doesn't deserve jail time... except for maybe starting a riot... but Wallace and the officials deserve that responsibility just as much...

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:25 PM

Look, saying that means you simply don't know much about our team. You signed a nutcase, he went nuts.

We sign nutcases, just not in groups of 4 or 5.Ron and maybe Jackson have anger problems... it does not make them nuts... Ron still may be though.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:26 PM

Sorry if we come off that way, but anyone who defends Artest's actions deserves the pounding you're getting. :D

About the "ifs" about our team, I don't look at them, because obviously, they are all in the past. I seriously don't give a damn about what could've happened had we not been the team we were last year. Now it's your turn to understand THAT.

And no matter how much you try to make it seem like we wouldn't have won the Championship had we played against a healthy Pacer team, I don't really care.

I do think your team will be very good nxt yr. In fact, in the poll about the Eastern finals teams, I voted for your team. But I can't really respect much a team that hasn't proven anything. And let me be clarify that before you go into a rant about it: By "proven anything" I mean at least stepping into a Finals court. I am not defending his actions. He should not have ran into the stands... I just don't think what he did is as horrible as everyone says... and no one else takes any heat for what happened that night.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:26 PM

Explain in what aspect that is disrespectful?
Are you actually serious?

All this fool could have done was walk away, go to the bench and sit down, whatever. You tell me what need he had of going to lay the hell down? Was he bleeding? Did he faint? No. He got shoved. Why taunt the fans by laying down on the scorer's table and acting like it was his arena and he could do whatever he wants? If you don't think the reason he did that was because his ego had just been injured and wanted to irritate the fans because of it, you're not being honest.

FromWayDowntown

09-03-2005, 05:27 PM

Again... Manu is a standup guy... do you think Ron thought he would continue to be physically abused on that table...nope but it still happened. I don't think he did such horrible acts as you all make them out to be... he doesn't deserve jail time... except for maybe starting a riot... but Wallace and the officials deserve that responsibility just as much...

He was "physically abused" by having a plastic cup thrown at him? What is your term for a person who is actually harmed by another's action?

The law certaintly doesn't recognize Artest's actions as self-defense. It recognizes those actions to be assault and battery. When I took the bar, assault and battery were still crimes.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:28 PM

Ron and maybe Jackson have anger problems... it does not make them nuts.Running into the stands does....

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:30 PM

Were it an Indy board an unprovoked perhaps - but here it is what it is: the truth.
It's not like I think our team hinges on Bender... I am more inclined to believe he won't be able to play a full season... but he could surprise us all. But even if we don't add Bender look at what else we have added compared to what you all have added. And the reason I put the question of could you all have taken Detroit to six is that you guys do not believe we are a threat to you... and it is because you say we have not done anything... if it weren't for injuries and suspensions we could have been in the Finals the last two seasons. None of you respect what we have.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:31 PM

Running into the stands does....You didn't put my whole quote... I did say Ron may be nuts.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:34 PM

Sorry if we come off that way, but anyone who defends Artest's actions deserves the pounding you're getting. :D

About the "ifs" about our team, I don't look at them, because obviously, they are all in the past. I seriously don't give a damn about what could've happened had we not been the team we were last year. Now it's your turn to understand THAT.

And no matter how much you try to make it seem like we wouldn't have won the Championship had we played against a healthy Pacer team, I don't really care.

I do think your team will be very good nxt yr. In fact, in the poll about the Eastern finals teams, I voted for your team. But I can't really respect much a team that hasn't proven anything. And let me be clarify that before you go into a rant about it: By "proven anything" I mean at least stepping into a Finals court.If you don't consider my ifs because it is in the past... then why are you considering what my team has done in the past seasons as a reference to how good we will be this year... I will not stop defending us until you all open your eyes and see that Indiana is a threat to you this year.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:35 PM

It's not like I think our team hinges on Bender.Then quit pimping him.
But even if we don't add Bender look at what else we have added compared to what you all have added.Look how we won the championship already -- what were we lacking?
And the reason I put the question of could you all have taken Detroit to six is that you guys do not believe we are a threat to you.Every team is a threat. Indy is a threat. Are you happy now?
if it weren't for injuries and suspensions we could have been in the Finals the last two seasons.If it hadn't been for injuries (not suspensions -- we don't rely too heavily on nutjobs), the Spurs could have five championships now -- so what? Am I supposed to cry and ask for retro-respect?

You have a good team.

Paper champions, according to you.

We've seen that before.

Means nothing.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:36 PM

I did say Ron may be nuts.And you may be his biggest apologist.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:37 PM

So it's the fault of the NBA officials that Ron Artest couldn't control his temper? Of course, because it couldn't possibly be little Ronnie's fault that he acted like a complete nimrod with no restraint or self-discipline. :rolleyes

Do you have similar excuses for other criminals as well?
Nope... just explaining that the two situations are completely different. And for the 40th time... Manu is a stand-up guy and Ron is a thug... that is not an excuse... it is a fact. Ron still shouldn't have ran into the stands.

NuGGeTs-FaN

09-03-2005, 05:37 PM

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 05:38 PM

If you don't consider my ifs because it is in the past... then why are you considering what my team has done in the past seasons as a reference to how good we will be this year... I will not stop defending us until you all open your eyes and see that Indiana is a threat to you this year.
You're using "ifs" to make excuses for your team. I voted for Indy because I know Detroit won't be nearly as good as they were last year considering one of the best coaches in the NBA deserted them. And the Heat will be chaos.

You can't change the way we feel about our team. You can make fits all you want until your head explodes. We have faith in our team that they can overcome anything and anyone.

MY TEAM killed the Lakers' dynasty at the peak of their success. What makes you think I believe a team like the Pacers with 0 rings will be harder than that?

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:38 PM

Then quit pimping him.Look how we won the championship already -- what were we lacking?Every team is a threat. Indy is a threat. Are you happy now?If it hadn't been for injuries (not suspensions -- we don't rely too heavily on nutjobs), the Spurs could have five championships now -- so what? Am I supposed to cry and ask for retro-respect?

You have a good team.

Paper champions, according to you.

We've seen that before.

Means nothing.We could have faced you in the Finals last year without Ron... if Jermaine and Tinsley were not injured. And yes we are paper champions... one of four paper champions right now... including your Spurs.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:39 PM

ifand?

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:40 PM

seriously dude, what is the point of posting your opinion about the Pacers vs Spurs when your going to say the Pacers are better........

its not unbiased at all..........i wont come on and say the Nuggets are better than the Spurs coz anyone in their right mind knows that the Spurs are the best team last season and this season coming..........

all other teams (including Nuggets) can do is make sure that they bring it night in and night out and HOPE to beat the spurs...........

dont be a fool and think the Pacers are better than the Spurs........thats just ignorant...........just accept the fact that they are the best and starting hoping that some team can knock them off the topWell, if you guys get a real shooting guard, a couple of paper champion post wouldn't surprise me.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:41 PM

seriously dude, what is the point of posting your opinion about the Pacers vs Spurs when your going to say the Pacers are better........

its not unbiased at all..........i wont come on and say the Nuggets are better than the Spurs coz anyone in their right mind knows that the Spurs are the best team last season and this season coming..........

all other teams (including Nuggets) can do is make sure that they bring it night in and night out and HOPE to beat the spurs...........

dont be a fool and think the Pacers are better than the Spurs........thats just ignorant...........just accept the fact that they are the best and starting hoping that some team can knock them off the topQuit putting your own words in my mouth... I never said once that we were better... go ahead... check all of my posts and put it up... I am just saying we have a strong chance of winning it this year... more than almost every NBA team... your team is one of those teams... the Spurs are the only ones with a better chance to win it than we do.

NuGGeTs-FaN

09-03-2005, 05:43 PM

Well, if you guys get a real shooting guard, a couple of paper champion post wouldn't surprise me.

yeh we need a star SG, i am not 100% sure why Kiki got Watson but all us Nuggets fans can specualte is that he is looking to shop Earl Boykins and one of our Bigs (Nene most likely)...........Watson is good on D which is something we seriously lack at the PG......... he should help but only time will tell, he gets a touh initiation with Parker on opening night...........as a matter of interest, does anyone know ho Watson has faired against Tony?

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:46 PM

And you may be his biggest apologist.I do not think what he did was ok. He did do wrong things... but there are so many others who did not do their jobs properly who do not get dumped on near as much as Ron.

NuGGeTs-FaN

09-03-2005, 05:48 PM

Quit putting your own words in my mouth... I never said once that we were better... go ahead... check all of my posts and put it up... I am just saying we have a strong chance of winning it this year... more than almost every NBA team... your team is not one of those teams... you are the only ones with a better chance to win it than we do.

i think for both our teams it comes down to health again.............

Francisco Elson felt real bad after he grabbed Jermaine's shoulder and injured it........they had an interview with him and he was truly sorry. You guys will be solid this year and id love indiana to come out of the east........although i will be supporting the Bucks (im an aussie), i think they are a fair way away from contending lol

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:49 PM

and?And we could have made it to the Finals... giving us creditials that you people seem to think we have none of.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:49 PM

but

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 05:50 PM

And we could have made it to the Finals... giving us creditials that you people seem to think we have none of.So you don't have those particular credentials. Quit being so insecure.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:52 PM

i think for both our teams it comes down to health again.............

Francisco Elson felt real bad after he grabbed Jermaine's shoulder and injured it........they had an interview with him and he was truly sorry. You guys will be solid this year and id love indiana to come out of the east........although i will be supporting the Bucks (im an aussie), i think they are a fair way away from contending lolI figured you all would have taken Spree at a low cost... it might have been a good idea not to have though. I think the nuggets will be in the top 4 or 5 out West as your roster stands today. Good luck to you all this year... I heard about Melo's troubles and I think he will overcome them and have a great year this year.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 05:55 PM

So you don't have those particular credentials. Quit being so insecure.I just can't believe so many people on here don't like how strong I think our chances are... we will be the best in the East... I can't say we will beat you all though. You will be our biggest challenge. I hope your team doesn't have an injury plagued season this year after all the times you guys hated on my if's. You don't want any bad kharma.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:04 PM

You never answered my question.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:09 PM

You never answered my question.I never said my team is tougher than yours. In my eyes we are equals... the past... especially three years ago... holds very little bearing on this season. We have the two best rosters in the league. You all have the best chances of winning the title this year... we are second to you there... but I just want you all to see that we are your top threat... so you aren't surprised in June.

AND... I already answered your question before you asked it... I have been trying to give you guys some insight to our team to show you how deadly we are... we haven't won a championship since the ABA days... but honestly how does that determine how good we will be this year. I am just trying to open your eyes and to quit seeing yourselves as the only team with a big chance of winning it this year.

Detroit and Miami will struggle a bit this year... and you have no one even close to as good as you out west...

I will stop ranting when I start seeing some acknowledgement of how high our chances are to be facing you all. I have seen a few glimmers of hope from some of your statements but then by the end of your posts you are back to asking why we should be taken seriously when I have given so many reasons already.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:11 PM

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:15 PM

:D
I edited it at the bottom for your answer... read it again.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:24 PM

picnroll

09-03-2005, 06:27 PM

Pacers are a talented team but ....

they are the biggest collection of punks in the NBA. I watched a ton of games last year, including Pacers, and no team was as close to being as confrontational as the Pacers. The Detroit incident didn't just accidentally happen to involve the Pacers. "We ride together" Jackson is a punk, loveable but nonetheless a punk. Tinsley is a hotheaded punk. Artest, well he's just palin borderline psychotic. O'Neal is a punk. And now they've added another hothead in Sarunas. Pacer fans seem to get off on it, think it's macho. Carlisle tolerates it, maybe even endorses the hardass play.

Contrast this with the Spurs. The Spurs went through three extremely physical series, Denver, Seattle and Detroit. In all these series, in all these games there was one Spur involved in any confrotation whatsoever, that was against Seattle when newcomer Glen Robinson shoved a Sonics player and drew a technical. Pop immediately sat Big Dog's ass on the bench where it stayed the rest of the game.

Ultimately if the Spurs do play the Pacers in a final I'm totally confident the Spurs will win, not because they're necessarily more talented but because they are ten times more intelligent, more professional and more diciplined than the Pacers many of whom are dumbasses. And if you don't believe me read about Jacks recent wedding. :lol

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:29 PM

Ultimately if the Spurs do play the Pacers in a final I'm totally confident the Spurs will win, not because they're necessarily more talented but because they are ten times more intelligent, more professional and more diciplined than the Pacers may of whom are dumbasses. And if you don't believe me read about Jacks recent wedding.
:tu

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 06:36 PM

Bowen shut down Ray Allen, Shawn Marion, and Hamilton one after another iin the playoffs. No Bowen no championship for us.

Keep thinking he's a bad player we could care less, but stop repeating it here troll

He did a nice job on Hamilton but he didn't shut him down. That being said Bowen is the NBA's best defender at his position.

zocool16

09-03-2005, 06:38 PM

to tell you the truth i stopped listening when you said ARTEST has better offense than MANU...

timvp

09-03-2005, 06:40 PM

He did a nice job on Hamilton but he didn't shut him down. That being said Bowen is the NBA's best defender at his position.

16.7 points per game. 38.6% from the field. 16.7% on threes.

That is getting shut down hardcore.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:41 PM

I agree you will be a good team.

BUT...

My team has gone through hell and back... Moreso than your team has even with the injuries and suspensions. We've gone through YEARS of being beaten, made fun of, and pounded out of the playoffs by the Lakers. We beat them, and we've never been the same since. Our team knows all the kinks and tricks of being in the Finals. Our coach knows what it's all about. He's the best at his job. We have THE BEST PF in the League. We have leadership, veterans like no other team. We have young feet, we have experienced feet. We can go small, we can beat a run-and-gun team. We can beat the toughest and most powerful defense in the league. We've won 3 rings in 7 years. We have so much clutchness, it's insane. We have so much defense, IT'S insane. All this makes you cocky.

Forgive us.

:smokinYou have got to be smoking!!! We have gone through hell your team can't even imagine... you were beaten by the Lakers because they had been better than you... we were beaten by the Pistons because of injuries and suspensions... AND NO OTHER TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA HAS GONE THROUGH WHAT OUR TEAM DID... WE WERE DOWN TO SIX FUCKING AVAILABLE PLAYERS AT ONCE YOU ALL HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSE TO HELL LIKE THAT! You have won three 'ships in the last decade... how is that even close to going through hell?

AND

- your coach is the best... I'll give you that...but Carlisle is the third best
- you have the second best PF in the league... Garnett is the best... and JO is not even a half-step behind Duncan in terms of skill.
-You have old feet... our team is ALOT younger than yours... and just as skilled

I don't blame you for being cocky... but you aren't the only top notch product out there... which many of you seem to feel you are.

I will forgive you when you cut the cockyness.

ChumpDumper

09-03-2005, 06:42 PM

we will be the best in the East.Talk is cheap.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:44 PM

to tell you the truth i stopped listening when you said ARTEST has better offense than MANU...Who made that claim?

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 06:45 PM

16.7 points per game. 38.6% from the field. 16.7% on threes.

That is getting shut down hardcore.

you got me on the 3's thing, Rip has no business lobbing those up especially agianst Bowen. Although he was 1-6 for the series, no series killer there.

He averaged 18.7 for the season, 2 points less in the Finals isn't hardcore shutdown.

You'll have to refer back to Marion for the hardcore thing.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:45 PM

He did a nice job on Hamilton but he didn't shut him down. That being said Bowen is the NBA's best defender at his position.
Ron is a SF... and better than Bowen at D... so is Kirilenko on both accounts.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:46 PM

Talk is cheap.
It is... but you all have forced it on me... I will now be here with the I told you so's in June... I didn't want to have to do it... I would have rather been praising your team and mine... now I will have to bring the I told you so's...

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:51 PM

You have got to be smoking!!! We have gone through hell your team can't even imagine... you were beaten by the Lakers because they had been better than you... we were beaten by the Pistons because of injuries and suspensions... AND NO OTHER TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA HAS GONE THROUGH WHAT OUR TEAM DID... WE WERE DOWN TO SIX FUCKING AVAILABLE PLAYERS AT ONCE YOU ALL HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSE TO HELL LIKE THAT!
Don't get emotional on me, now.

Our team had 7+ players out including DRob (the best at the time) out in the season before Duncan with injuries. So don't make your team out to be the martyr of the league stating that "No other team in the HISTORY of the Nba has gone through that". :rolleyes

You have won three 'ships in the last decade... how is that even close to going through hell?
I'm talking about the hell it cost us to get there.

- you have the second best PF in the league... Garnett is the best...
I see we disagree in lots of things...

-You have old feet... our team is ALOT younger than yours... and just as skilled
Your team is not experienced nor polished in the playoffs. THAT counts way more than how young the team is.

I don't blame you for being cocky... but you aren't the only top notch product out there... which many of you seem to feel you are.
Again. Until you prove to be top-notch and competing up there with the big guys, I'll accede.

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 06:53 PM

Ron is a SF... and better than Bowen at D... so is Kirilenko on both accounts.

kirilenko played 41 games last year and Artest played 7. You have to play to be considered the best.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:53 PM

It is... but you all have forced it on me... I will now be here with the I told you so's in June... I didn't want to have to do it... I would have rather been praising your team and mine... now I will have to bring the I told you so's...
:lol

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:54 PM

Don't get emotional on me, now.

Our team had 7+ players out including DRob (the best at the time) out in the season before Duncan with injuries. So don't make your team out to be the martyr of the league stating that "No other team in the HISTORY of the Nba has gone through that". :rolleyes

I'm talking about the hell it cost us to get there.

I see we disagree in lots of things...

Your team is not experienced nor polished in the playoffs. THAT counts way more than how young the team is.

Again. Until you prove to be top-notch and competing up there with the big guys, I'll accede.How is taking Detroit to six games with a team full of injured players not proof? You guys went only one more game than we did with your best product versus a shell of the product we will have this year... and Garnett is the best... you are blinded by the silver and black there.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:56 PM

kirilenko played 41 games last year and Artest played 7. You have to play to be considered the best.They will be playing this year... therefore Bowen is no longer the best at his position... he was the best for 43 games or less last year. That is no longer the case.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 06:57 PM

:lolI will be seeing plenty of this on here in June...
:depressed , :oops , :drunk

If you think we will not present you a challenge.

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 06:58 PM

How is taking Detroit to six games with a team full of injured players not proof? You guys went only one more game than we did with your best product versus a shell of the product we will have this year... and Garnett is the best... you are blinded by the silver and black there.

You had your full team the year before with the same result.

2 starters gone from last year, Miller and Davis (Pistons) and 1 walking time-bomb back on the team and all of a sudden your the best? No.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 06:58 PM

How is taking Detroit to six games with a team full of injured players not proof? You guys went only one more game than we did with your best product versus a shell of the product we will have this year... and Garnett is the best... you are blinded by the silver and black there.
If you knew anything about basketball and how the NBA works, you'd know all teams match up WAY differently than they do with others.

Just because you matched up well with one team doesn't make you better than another team that doesn't match up well.

e.g.:
The Nuggets and Sonics gave us hell. Did that make them better than the Suns just because we almost swept them?

Give me a break.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 07:00 PM

I will be seeing plenty of this on here in June...
:depressed , :oops , :drunk

If you think we will not present you a challenge.
I'm laughing because you're so easily angered. Which is funny considering you came into another team's board on your own free will...

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 07:02 PM

They will be playing this year... therefore Bowen is no longer the best at his position... he was the best for 43 games or less last year. That is no longer the case.

Talk doesn't win awards or championships. If you win something come back and run your mouth then if you insist.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:04 PM

You had your full team the year before with the same result.

2 starters gone from last year, Miller and Davis (Pistons) and 1 walking time-bomb back on the team and all of a sudden your the best? No.Nope... Jermaine and Jamal were injured during that run as well. And we lost two nearly 40 year olds and a second round pick... we have added a healthy Jermaine, Tinsley, and possibly Bender... and an All-Star DPOY in Ron Artest... the best international player not yet in the NBA in Sarunas... and a guy who was projected to be picked in the top 5 fell into our laps at #17 (Danny Granger)... because of dumbass picks by teams like the Bobcats, Raptors, Lakers, and Magic.

We have added far more than we have lost...

Reggie hurt us in the playoffs because he was old and unable to contribute on a nightly basis. Dale and James Jones were only needed because Artest was suspened and Jermaine and Harrison were injured.

Give us some credit... please...

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:05 PM

If you knew anything about basketball and how the NBA works, you'd know all teams match up WAY differently than they do with others.

Just because you matched up well with one team doesn't make you better than another team that doesn't match up well.

e.g.:
The Nuggets and Sonics gave us hell. Did that make them better than the Suns just because we almost swept them?

Give me a break.And we have such a loaded roster that we will match up with anyone. You all are our only serious threat.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 07:06 PM

Give us some credit... please...
Why do you want validation from an opponent's fans, if you claim so pompously that you'll give us hell?

I don't get it.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:07 PM

I'm laughing because you're so easily angered. Which is funny considering you came into another team's board on your own free will...Cause I expected some good discussions... I did not see my self having to defend our chances at the title... I did not forsee that so many of you would be so cocky and blind... I am just defending my team now.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 07:08 PM

You all are our only serious threat.
:lmao

Oh, the irony.

And you say we're arrogant?

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:09 PM

Why do you want validation from an opponent's fans, if you claim so pompously that you'll give us hell?

I don't get it.I just can't believe how blind you are... I don't need validation from any of you... I know my team can beat yours (not that we are definately better... but we could take you down in a 7 game series)... unfortunately you all don't see the train coming. I'm just trying to get you off the tracks.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:12 PM

:lmao

Oh, the irony.

And you say we're arrogant?You are... I am too... but I don't see my team as the best... I see yours as the best... that makes me far less arrogant than you... cause in reality your team may not be the best, it is the same with mine... at least I can accept what your team could do to mine. You guys don't give us a chance in hell to beat you in the playoffs... in reality... we have a very strong chance of doing just that.

And I did say you were the only serious threat... DET and MIA are a threat too.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:13 PM

I am out for the day... see ya'll tomorrow when I am still trying to pry your eyelids open with the jaws of life.

picnroll

09-03-2005, 07:17 PM

They will be playing this year... therefore Bowen is no longer the best at his position... he was the best for 43 games or less last year. That is no longer the case.
Who's going to guard Wade for the Pacers? I remember in the 'o4 playoffs the rookie Wade completely punked your boy Artest's ass.

TOP-CHERRY

09-03-2005, 07:17 PM

You are... I am too... but I don't see my team as the best... I see yours as the best... that makes me far less arrogant than you... cause in reality your team may not be the best, it is the same with mine... at least I can accept what your team could do to mine. You guys don't give us a chance in hell to beat you in the playoffs... in reality... we have a very strong chance of doing just that.
You listening to yourself?

"Your team is better than ours"
then you say:
"In reality your team may not be the best"

Which one is it? Because you're telling me "I don't see my team as the best" and "that makes me far less arrogant than you". So, if we both agree that the Spurs are better, why would you expect me to say they aren't?

Anyway, I've got to go. Hope you like this board (I forgot to welcome you); and if you like discussions, expect a lot. We have one of the most insightful and intelligent people in here.

;)

romsey31

09-03-2005, 07:17 PM

case closed, who cares about this comparison anyway. The pacers should compare themselves to teams like cleveland or nets before going after San Antonio; not to mention Detroit and Miami :smokin.

I don't think anyone in this boards care about the pacers. Maybe Houston and Phoenix as they are direct rivals from the division but pacers? :rolleyes , who cares.

What has Mia done to consider itself elite?

Look I'm not here to say that the Pacers are better than the Spurs, because they're not. I'm a Pacer fan not a homer, but thats the reason why the games are played. Please dont think all Pacer fans are like artest factor or whatever. Over on our board on indystar 99.9 percent of us were rooting for the Spurs. Spurs are the champs , which means they are the best. So artest fac needs to shut up and stop making a fool of the entire Pacer org and its fans. I apologze for his stupidity.

td4mvp21

09-03-2005, 07:17 PM

That's a good idea consideirng youve been in here arguing a pointless cause for what four hours? :lol

jochhejaam

09-03-2005, 07:19 PM

Cause I expected some good discussions... I did not see my self having to defend our chances at the title... I did not forsee that so many of you would be so cocky and blind... I am just defending my team now.

Originally posted by jermaine7fan: And we have such a loaded roster that we will match up with anyone. You all are our only serious threat.

Cocky and blind? You mean like this? ^^^

If you want good discussion stop submitting posts like that.

rayray2k8

09-03-2005, 07:20 PM

MaNuMaNiAc

09-03-2005, 07:21 PM

You are... I am too... but I don't see my team as the best... I see yours as the best... that makes me far less arrogant than you... cause in reality your team may not be the best, it is the same with mine... at least I can accept what your team could do to mine. You guys don't give us a chance in hell to beat you in the playoffs... in reality... we have a very strong chance of doing just that.

And I did say you were the only serious threat... DET and MIA are a threat too. Question. Who is the actual NBA champion? You see our team as the best, because right now, WE ARE THE BEST! Come back when your Pacer's have actually accomplished something. You say we don't see the train coming, and you want to get us off the tracks, I say let the train come, WE'LL DERAIL THE MOTHERFUCKER!

romsey31

09-03-2005, 07:27 PM

Your a dumbass.

It's mostly Detroit and Miami... that makes indiana back to at least 4th or 5th
Chad ford picked indiana to win the east on espn.com this week

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:29 PM

First make it to the finals..
then we'll talk..
For now, this is a big waste of time.. its clear that
San Antonio is the Measuring stick in the NBA, and
thats all these pacer fans are doing or trying to do..
You want a shot at us?? Get in line..
Im sure the heat, pistons, suns, mavs, rockets, nuggets, sonics, t-wolves, hell the rest of the NBA for that matter, would love listen to your story.
JESUS CHRIST, JUST END THIS THREAD ALREADY!!
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS PEOPLE!! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT! STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON THEM, THEY'RE NOT WORTH IT!We have only been a step away from the Finals every year for the last decade! And we have even been there in the last decade...

Furthermore... you are the troll... you all just bash on my team... I have praised yours... which sounds like troll activity to you? The fact that I am on a Spurs board does not make me a troll... it makes me someone who wants to discuss the NBA with people outside of the Indiana fan base.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:32 PM

Who's going to guard Wade for the Pacers? I remember in the 'o4 playoffs the rookie Wade completely punked your boy Artest's ass.Stephen guards Wade... and he is the only player I have ever seen dominate Ron consistanltly... plus... that series was the first time Wade came out and played the way he does now... Ron was a deer in headlights.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:33 PM

You listening to yourself?

"Your team is better than ours"
then you say:
"In reality your team may not be the best"

Which one is it? Because you're telling me "I don't see my team as the best" and "that makes me far less arrogant than you". So, if we both agree that the Spurs are better, why would you expect me to say they aren't?

Anyway, I've got to go. Hope you like this board (I forgot to welcome you); and if you like discussions, expect a lot. We have one of the most insightful and intelligent people in here.

;)I don't want you to think that IND is better than SA... I want you to believe we will be your toughest competition... and the only team with a true shot of taking you all out.

jermaine7fan

09-03-2005, 07:34 PM

Question. Who is the actual NBA champion? You see our team as the best, because right now, WE ARE THE BEST! Come back when your Pacer's have actually accomplished something. You say we don't see the train coming, and you want to get us off the tracks, I say let the train come, WE'LL DERAIL THE MOTHERFUCKER!Good luck at that... you WILL need it.

picnroll

09-03-2005, 07:36 PM

... Ron was a deer in headlights.
More like roadkill. Laughed my ass off. Did Carlisle forget to show Dwayne Ronnie's awesome defensive stats. :rollin

picnroll

09-03-2005, 07:42 PM

I don't want you to think that IND is better than SA... I want you to believe we will be your toughest competition... and the only team with a true shot of taking you all out.
Some here do think the Pacers will come out of the East. Some think Detroit is better, some Miami. You want everyone here to acknowledge the Pacers as the Spurs main competition and the class of the East. Sorry ain't going to happen and to think or expect everybody here will is a little on the arrogant side.

romsey31

09-03-2005, 07:43 PM