Liberalism in Action: Planned Parenthood Sells Dead Baby Body Parts

[RandomGuy]

Buyer: Is there a reason an affiliate just doesn’t have it’s own incinerator?
Because that, I meanPP:
I think it’s probably expensive, I think if push came to shove and they had to
they probably will. Affiliates are just starting to band together and do certain
things, operate labs for example, I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next five or ten
TRANSCRIPT BY THE CENTER FOR MEDICAL PROGRESS
Page 24 of 60
years, there is somebody who does it, and maybe they take on all of the
business- it’s still business, they’re a non-profit, it’s not like they have a lot of
money lying around at the start. You have to spend money to do something like
that, and they just don’t have the money to spend. And, I think they would rather
just spend it on helping patients. It’s just the right space for it.

Tissue not sold, has to be disposed of in rather expensive incinerators.

[RandomGuy]

And I
think patients respond most to knowing the types of outcomes that it might
contribute to, so for example Alzheimer's research, Parkinson’s research. I think
most of these patients have some experience with at least one of these
conditions or another. I think the ones that come in asking are the ones who have
already had the experience, that’s why they come in asking.

Another bit, left very purposefully out, are the potential uses for the donated tissue.

[RandomGuy]

So it just needs to be justifiable. And, look, we have 67
affiliates. They all have different practice environments, different staff, and
so that number—

One bit that did get into the edited video, and does add some useful context is that the price tends to be a bit hard to set, given that the costs of any given set of tissue varies.

[DarrinS]

Another use case: pet food

[DarrinS]

Infidel foot necklace

[RandomGuy]

PP: Well, we like- there’s always concerns too about kind of coercion. So you
always have to make sure they’ve made their decision, to actually have the
procedure, and then before you start adding on other things, any time we do any
research. And Planned Parenthood has very strict protocols or grounds, if we’re
doing a research study in general, when the different points in the consent
happen. This doesn’t fall into the research bucket because it’s not a specific
protocol, it’s not specific project. So, if there’s not consented for a specific
project, it’s not going to an I.R.B., but yet there’s still certain principles we still
think it’s most ethical to follow. And that is just to make sure they’ve made their
TRANSCRIPT BY THE CENTER FOR MEDICAL PROGRESS
Page 9 of 60
decision and they’re comfortable with the decision, then to say ok, now that
you’re past that point in the process, now there’s one other opportunity we
wanted to let you know about.

Another bit that didn't make it into the video, the planned parenthood rep talking about hewing to ethical guidelines.

[RandomGuy]

RG has made a very compelling legal and economic case for selling dead baby parts.

Define "baby"

[DarrinS]

Only thing that would upset the left on this issue is different prices for white and dark meat.

[RandomGuy]

RG has made a very compelling legal and economic case for selling dead baby parts.

My point:

Despite the ignorant bloviating of Bobby Jindal, it wasn't illegal.

First fact, readily ascertainable.

More fail by the right.

Second point was that the edited video was very much a propaganda piece, with important context that anybody with some critical thinking would want to make a reasonable decision for themselves would want.

Both points I have made.

Do you think that additional context is not needed?

[RandomGuy]

Only thing that would upset the left on this issue is different prices for white and dark meat.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/db/6e/e8db6ebd8dd82b63dfad49026060566c.jpg

[DarrinS]

I never said it was illegal. I just think it's f'ed up.

[DarrinS]

Define "baby"

Define "crunchy"

[Th'Pusher]

I never said it was illegal. I just think it's f'ed up.
You think it's f'd up that a consenting person has the option to choose to donate their aborted fetus to research?

[DarrinS]

I wonder how many black lives are lost to this vs the popo?

[Blake]

My take on what I think of abortion doesn't relate to what repercussion he would get. What would happen to him is entirely different discussion of its own and consists of different factors from that of the ethics of abortion.

well that's ok. Your take that the woman would be mentally healed after an abortion is pretty laughable on it's own.

[vy65]

This is the problem with the left. They're pussies.

Who the fuck cares if they sell dead baby parts for science? The baby is fucking dead. It doesn't hurt anyone.

But instead of speaking about this shit logically and directly, leftist fags backtrack to ethical guidelines and operating costs.

[spurraider21]

Another use case: pet food


Infidel foot necklace


Only thing that would upset the left on this issue is different prices for white and dark meat.


Define "crunchy"


I wonder how many black lives are lost to this vs the popo?
ur like a child covering your ears and saying "blablablablabla"

[Th'Pusher]

This is the problem with the left. They're pussies.

Who the fuck cares if they sell dead baby parts for science? The baby is fucking dead. It doesn't hurt anyone.

But instead of speaking about this shit logically and directly, leftist fags backtrack to ethical guidelines and operating costs.


You think it's f'd up that a consenting person has the option to choose to donate their aborted fetus to research?

[vy65]

^Directed more to RG

[Spurminator]

ur like a child covering your ears and saying "blablablablabla"

:lol The backpedalling on this page is damn near acrobatic.

[mingus]

well that's ok. Your take that the woman would be mentally healed after an abortion is pretty laughable on it's own.

Good. That's relief. I'd be worried if you thought I made a good point.

[spurraider21]

The shooting down of the plane is to prevent others from scheming the same thing.

Since we allow abortion, it continues without remorse. If we made it at least morally reprehensible, and had something like a scarlet "A", then maybe people would be less likely to put themselves in need of such services.
do you really think people leave abortion clinics with smiles on their faces? its not a fuckin amusement park

[Blake]

Good. That's relief. I'd be worried if you thought I made a good point.

I'll be worried if a lawmaker agrees with your opinions on rape legislation. But thanks for sharing them tho. :tu

[Blake]

The shooting down of the plane is to prevent others from scheming the same thing.

Since we allow abortion, it continues without remorse. If we made it at least morally reprehensible, and had something like a scarlet "A", then maybe people would be less likely to put themselves in need of such services.

my god....

Lol that's not why we shoot down planes with innocents lololol...but that's besides the point..

are there any exceptions to your scarlet letter policy or does every woman that has an abortion gets an A, no exception?

[boutons_deux]

Recent attacks are part of a decade-long pattern of illegal harassment by extremists, whose focus is banning abortion and preventing women from accessing preventive health care at Planned Parenthood health centers.

In a letter to Congress yesterday, Planned Parenthood detailed how recent attacks are part of a decade-long pattern of illegal harassment by extremists, whose focus is banning abortion and preventing women from accessing preventive health care at Planned Parenthood health centers.

In the letter to House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton, Planned Parenthood outlined:

How videos released were edited to falsely claim that the organization violated laws,

How the broader attack was perpetrated,

The extremist ties of the individual who led the fraud, and
What additional tapes the extremists may be planning to distort to make false charges.

Here’s what you need to know:

Planned Parenthood is the most trusted women’s health care provider in this country and has been for nearly 100 years. Nothing is more important to Planned Parenthood than patients’ health and safety. That’s why we are fighting back hard and calling this what it is: part of a decade-long campaign of deceiving the public, making false charges, and terrorizing women and their doctors — all in order to ban abortion and prevent women from accessing care at Planned Parenthood.

Already, conservative politicians have begun to use this fraud campaign to justify legislation to defund Planned Parenthood — which would cut women off from birth control, lifesaving cancer screenings, and other services. Anti-women’s health politicians also are using the fraud campaign to push for legislation banning abortion, both federally and in states.

The Truth About the Video and the Extremists Behind It

Responding to a request Friday, the letter to the congressional committee included these important facts:

Misleading Edits

An analysis of the heavily edited, nine-minute video released last week compared to the uncut 162-minute video: The longer video shows that a Planned Parenthood staffer said 10 different times that Planned Parenthood would not sell tissue or profit from tissue donations. All 10 instances were cut out and the video was edited to falsely claim she said the opposite.

Related Attacks

The man who perpetrated the fraud, David Daleiden, has participated in at least 10 separate fraud campaigns over the last eight years involving gaining access to Planned Parenthood health centers or offices under false pretenses, taping staff (and sometimes patients) without their knowledge on at least 65 occasions (not counting the latest fraud), and misleading the public with heavily edited tapes and false charges.

Another man involved in the fraud, Troy Newman, is the leader of Operation Rescue, whose members have bombed abortion clinics and murdered Dr. George Tiller in his church.

Corporate Espionage

This latest attack started approximately three years ago and included the creation of a phony company claiming to be a health care organization. Daleiden then embarked on a campaign of corporate espionage with Planned Parenthood as its target. The fraud included possible violations of state and federal recording laws and tax laws, as well as the possible use of a false state identification card.

The Months Ahead

Based on initial analysis, Planned Parenthood believes that Daleiden may have thousands of hours of videotape that he will use to edit deceptively into short clips to make false claims, likely for many months.

Among the areas that Planned Parenthood said it expects to see on video are:

Illegal, secret recording in a highly sensitive area of a health center where tissue is processed after abortion procedures, a serious invasion of women’s privacy and dignity.

Offers from impersonators posing as health care professionals to pay various sums of money for tissue or organs, from $100 to $1,600 – offers which could be illegal, and which Planned Parenthood staff refused.

Leading and vague questions and discussions about how abortions are performed to get footage that could be edited to suggest wrongdoing, regardless of the fact that Planned Parenthood staff made clear they would not violate laws.

Cynical and ugly questions about whether tissue from African American patients could be isolated to use for research to find a cure for sickle-cell anemia, presumably to edit deceptively and manufacture false and inflammatory video involving race.

Impact on Planned Parenthood Patients

The letter reiterates that as a high-quality health care provider, Planned Parenthood has extremely high standards and takes swift action any time those standards are not being met.
What we know right now: A group of extremists who have intimidated women and doctors for years — in their agenda to ban abortion completely — are not “documenting” misdeeds; they are making false accusations.

From all that is known today, the only people who have broken laws are the extremists who have hounded women and Planned Parenthood doctors for years.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/21/1404255/-A-Decade-Long-Campaign-of-Illegal-Harassment-Against-Planned-Parenthood?detail=email

[boutons_deux]

Fox Devoted 10 Segments In One Day To Hyping Edited Video's False Claims About Planned Parenthood



http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/22/fox-devoted-10-segments-in-one-day-to-hyping-ed/204541

[boutons_deux]

Repug reachout to the female vote going full blast

Republicans Use Veterans Bill To Attack Planned Parenthood

A bill that would have helped female military veterans receive fertility treatments and counseling on Wednesday fell prey to the Republican war against Planned Parenthood.

Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) abruptly pulled her bill (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/469) to end a ban on fertility treatments for female veterans receiving care at VA hospitals from the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee after Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) attached amendments targeting Planned Parenthood and other family planning organizations.

Tillis on Wednesday said he introduced the amendments because he believes the VA should focus on existing problems in the VA health system rather than introducing new programs. :lol

"I'm concerned that we have a problem with priorities," :lol Tillis said on the Senate floor. "I'm concerned that maybe the focus isn't where it needs to be to make sure that we take care of the most pressing problems for our veterans." :lol

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/republicans-planned-parenthood_55b05c93e4b08f57d5d3af83

NC Confederate Tillis' priority is War on (poor) Women, pandering to his Christian Taliban base.

[russellgoat]

Abortion is necessary to stop society from having a lot of criminals and other filth. I just wish people realize that we should also deport the filthy Mexican and Central American kids that will become gang members.

[boutons_deux]

Fox Hosts Have No Idea What Planned Parenthood Does Or How Obamacare Works

Fox hosts Bill O'Reilly and Andrea Tantaros advocated for entirely eliminating Planned Parenthood's federal funding, which helps provide critical women's health services across the U.S., by wildly misrepresenting what the organization spends on abortion and the services they provide.

Congress long ago barred (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/08/foxs-distorted-picture-of-how-planned-parenthoo/192092) Planned Parenthood from using federal funds for abortion, but the release of two deceptively (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/14/attack-on-planned-parenthood-3-deceptive-edits/204419) edited (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/21/latest-video-attacking-planned-parenthood-full/204524) videos -- which attempt to smear the organization's legal practice of allowing women to choose to donate fetal tissues from their abortions to biomedical research -- has nevertheless reanimated (http://www.vox.com/2015/7/22/9013565/planned-parenthood-government-funding) anti-choice activists' campaign to defund the nonprofit.

Jumping off of the controversy, O'Reilly stated unequivocally on his July 22 show that "Planned Parenthood should be defunded, period. I don't want my tax dollars going to them."

Fox contributor Juan Williams attempted to push back, explaining that by defunding all of Planned Parenthood, "you're talking about taking away medical access to millions of women." But O'Reilly insisted "It wouldn't take away anything," and Fox host Tantaros agreed:

TANTAROS: I want to jump in on the women's health point because that's actually a crock. Look, you don't have to be pro-life to be horrified by these videos. A number of my pro-choice friends are horrified by these videos, the same way they were horrified by Kermit Gosnell. And look, here's my view on Planned Parenthood. It provides services now, those services are provided under Obamacare. So, we don't really need Planned Parenthood.

O'REILLY: 90 percent of their services are abortion-related. :lol

TANTAROS: But here's my deal, I don't want to pay for it. It's a business, let private funding go to Planned Parenthood, taxpayer dollars should not have to go to crazy towns like San Francisco and to places like Planned Parenthood.


In fact, Obamacare does not guarantee women access to the critical health services Planned Parenthood's 817 clinics across the country (http://www.vox.com/2015/7/22/9013565/planned-parenthood-government-funding) provide, nor are "90 percent of their services" abortion related.

The Affordable Care Act requires that insurance companies cover preventative women's health care services and prenatal care, and has already saved women over $1 billion dollars on birth control (http://theweek.com/speedreads/565268/obamacare-saved-women-14-billion-birth-control-pills) by reducing co-pays and deductibles. The law also established (http://bphc.hrsa.gov/about/healthcenterfactsheet.pdf) funding to construct health centers to increase access to health care.

But the law does not guarantee that there are clinics accessible to provide women these health services. Some local pharmacies may stock prescription birth control, for example, but they aren't equipped to perform pap smears, conduct exams for breast cancer, or provide treatment for sexually transmitted diseases.

That kind of critical women's health care is provided at the hundreds of Planned Parenthood clinics. According to their most recent annual report, from October 2012 to September 2013 their clinics performed almost 900,000 pap tests and breast exams (http://issuu.com/actionfund/docs/annual_report_final_proof_12.16.14_/0), over 3.5 million birth control information and service requests, and nearly 4.5 million tests and treatments for STIs.
The same report (once (http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/02/18/laura-ingraham-grossly-misrepresents-planned-pa/176611) again (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/02/04/no-planned-parenthood-is-not-primarily-an-abort/184973)) confirmed that only 3 percent of Planned Parenthood's services were abortion-related (http://issuu.com/actionfund/docs/annual_report_final_proof_12.16.14_/0).
http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2015/07/22/ppfa_spending.png
As Vox's Sarah Kliff recently explained (http://www.vox.com/2015/7/22/9013565/planned-parenthood-government-funding), Planned Parenthood receives "more than $500 million annually in government funding, mostly through Medicaid and grants," and that money is crucial to helping them provide this health care to millions of American women. "Because Planned Parenthood is such a large provider in this space," Kliff writes, "it's hard to see other clinics stepping in to fill the gap that [defunding] would leave."

Anti-choice attempts to shutter women's health clinics -- including Planned Parenthood centers -- around the country have already created a massive health crisis (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/08/04/one-year-later-how-a-media-myth-helped-close-ha/200309) in states like Texas, where 13 million women live but currently only have access to a handful of clinics.

Fox has repeatedly hyped this most recent deceptive campaign against Planned Parenthood, with the network devoting 10 full segments in just one day (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/22/fox-devoted-10-segments-in-one-day-to-hyping-ed/204541) to hyping the video's false claims.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/07/22/fox-hosts-have-no-idea-what-planned-parenthood/204551

... is why old, white people who watch Fox are so fucking stupid, ignorant, inflammable.

[Wild Cobra]

Recent attacks are part of a decade-long pattern of illegal harassment by extremists, whose focus is banning abortion and preventing women from accessing preventive health care at Planned Parenthood health centers.

In a letter to Congress yesterday, Planned Parenthood detailed how recent attacks are part of a decade-long pattern of illegal harassment by extremists, whose focus is banning abortion and preventing women from accessing preventive health care at Planned Parenthood health centers.

In the letter to House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton, Planned Parenthood outlined:

How videos released were edited to falsely claim that the organization violated laws,

How the broader attack was perpetrated,

The extremist ties of the individual who led the fraud, and
What additional tapes the extremists may be planning to distort to make false charges.

Here’s what you need to know:

Planned Parenthood is the most trusted women’s health care provider in this country and has been for nearly 100 years. Nothing is more important to Planned Parenthood than patients’ health and safety. That’s why we are fighting back hard and calling this what it is: part of a decade-long campaign of deceiving the public, making false charges, and terrorizing women and their doctors — all in order to ban abortion and prevent women from accessing care at Planned Parenthood.

Already, conservative politicians have begun to use this fraud campaign to justify legislation to defund Planned Parenthood — which would cut women off from birth control, lifesaving cancer screenings, and other services. Anti-women’s health politicians also are using the fraud campaign to push for legislation banning abortion, both federally and in states.

The Truth About the Video and the Extremists Behind It

Responding to a request Friday, the letter to the congressional committee included these important facts:

Misleading Edits

An analysis of the heavily edited, nine-minute video released last week compared to the uncut 162-minute video: The longer video shows that a Planned Parenthood staffer said 10 different times that Planned Parenthood would not sell tissue or profit from tissue donations. All 10 instances were cut out and the video was edited to falsely claim she said the opposite.

Related Attacks

The man who perpetrated the fraud, David Daleiden, has participated in at least 10 separate fraud campaigns over the last eight years involving gaining access to Planned Parenthood health centers or offices under false pretenses, taping staff (and sometimes patients) without their knowledge on at least 65 occasions (not counting the latest fraud), and misleading the public with heavily edited tapes and false charges.

Another man involved in the fraud, Troy Newman, is the leader of Operation Rescue, whose members have bombed abortion clinics and murdered Dr. George Tiller in his church.

Corporate Espionage

This latest attack started approximately three years ago and included the creation of a phony company claiming to be a health care organization. Daleiden then embarked on a campaign of corporate espionage with Planned Parenthood as its target. The fraud included possible violations of state and federal recording laws and tax laws, as well as the possible use of a false state identification card.

The Months Ahead

Based on initial analysis, Planned Parenthood believes that Daleiden may have thousands of hours of videotape that he will use to edit deceptively into short clips to make false claims, likely for many months.

Among the areas that Planned Parenthood said it expects to see on video are:

Illegal, secret recording in a highly sensitive area of a health center where tissue is processed after abortion procedures, a serious invasion of women’s privacy and dignity.

Offers from impersonators posing as health care professionals to pay various sums of money for tissue or organs, from $100 to $1,600 – offers which could be illegal, and which Planned Parenthood staff refused.

Leading and vague questions and discussions about how abortions are performed to get footage that could be edited to suggest wrongdoing, regardless of the fact that Planned Parenthood staff made clear they would not violate laws.

Cynical and ugly questions about whether tissue from African American patients could be isolated to use for research to find a cure for sickle-cell anemia, presumably to edit deceptively and manufacture false and inflammatory video involving race.

Impact on Planned Parenthood Patients

The letter reiterates that as a high-quality health care provider, Planned Parenthood has extremely high standards and takes swift action any time those standards are not being met.
What we know right now: A group of extremists who have intimidated women and doctors for years — in their agenda to ban abortion completely — are not “documenting” misdeeds; they are making false accusations.

From all that is known today, the only people who have broken laws are the extremists who have hounded women and Planned Parenthood doctors for years.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/21/1404255/-A-Decade-Long-Campaign-of-Illegal-Harassment-Against-Planned-Parenthood?detail=email





LOL...

A "He said - She said" argument.

LOL...

[boutons_deux]

LOL...

A "He said - She said" argument.

LOL...

AGW denier DENIES all facts that don't fit his ideology.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I'm pro-choice but watching those videos was sickening, edited or not.

[DarrinS]

Memo to all PP employees:

Stop talking about selling DBBP.

[Spurminator]

I mean I get sick watching videos of open heart surgery and live births, but if it's not illegal, I try not to let it ruin my day.

Anyway, I'm sure all of these investigations will lead to some damning findings.

[boutons_deux]

sure all of these investigations will lead to some damning findings.

Benghazi! :lol

We know from the 9/11 Commission how Repugs do "investigations"

[spurraider21]

Benghazi! :lol
why do you always laugh about benghazi and bring it up jokingly?

[TheSanityAnnex]

why do you always laugh about benghazi and bring it up jokingly?
He celebrates the death of US military members weekly.

[Wild Cobra]

why do you always laugh about benghazi and bring it up jokingly?

Because he likes it when innocent life is snuffed out.

[RandomGuy]

Define "crunchy"

Again, another chickenshit dodge.

[RandomGuy]

Because he likes it when innocent life is snuffed out.

Define "life".

If I have a small biopsy removed, is that a "life"?

Both cases are human cells that cannot exist outside a body without assistance.

Are we going to have vigils for the 10,000 cells that die every time you comb your hair?

At some point, we will be able to manipulate genetics to be able to switch on the capacity to turn into cell types on and off at will. What then?

If I can take a blood sample, and morph those cells into a cute baby, does that make it wrong to have a nose bleed?

[Roux]

At the end of the day, your attitude enables losers.

If that's they type of sorry ass you are, then I pity you.

Society should not have to be burdened with other peoples irresponsibility. Society should have a say in such matters that affect us all. We all have differing opinions on what's best.

At least I don't condone the murder of innocent like you do.

Do you have any morals?
So who is to pay for these unwanted children? Also, how exactly does this affect you? If you don't believe in abortion then awesome for you. No one is forcing you to do so. All people ask is that you don't take away THEIR choice. This doesn't exactly affect you at all really. If we are going to hell for our choices than let us.

[Roux]

.

[Roux]

I think if the woman is raped it overrides that fact. It's not difficult for me to reconcile my belief that a fetus is human and that if it is a result rape the mother can make a choice in that instance and make an exception on whether to abort/kill it. It's not that the life is any less important or less of a life. It's a sad situation but I would be a able to sympathize with the mother making that choice. I cannot sympathize otherwise.
A terrible,sad situation where you would in that instance legalize "murder"? GTFO with that non-sense. So if she chose to get drunk, fucks, gets knocked up, & should have a choice, you want to take it away. But If she get's drunk then starts walking around the wrong side of town and gets raped, you want to give the choice back. This is a do or don't situation in line with your morals. It doesn't hurt you so how about you fucks just let us sinners go to hell in peace huh?

[Roux]

Im not putting zero value on the fetus in that instance. It's just that I think in that instance a women's choice is paramount to the fetus. I think the possible psychological effects of carrying/having a child borne out of rape makes not having that option a danger to mother.
I am curious to see how many more rape cases we see in this world of yours.

[Wild Cobra]

Define "life".

If I have a small biopsy removed, is that a "life"?

Both cases are human cells that cannot exist outside a body without assistance.

Are we going to have vigils for the 10,000 cells that die every time you comb your hair?

At some point, we will be able to manipulate genetics to be able to switch on the capacity to turn into cell types on and off at will. What then?

If I can take a blood sample, and morph those cells into a cute baby, does that make it wrong to have a nose bleed?

That's right.

Rationalize...

[Wild Cobra]

So who is to pay for these unwanted children? Also, how exactly does this affect you? If you don't believe in abortion then awesome for you. No one is forcing you to do so. All people ask is that you don't take away THEIR choice. This doesn't exactly affect you at all really. If we are going to hell for our choices than let us.

It the allowing our society to slip into this complacency of immorality.

That affects everyone.

[Blake]

It the allowing our society to slip into this complacency of immorality.

That affects everyone.

that's right......rationalize

[boutons_deux]

speaking of rape and abortion ...

Women and Girls Raped in Conflict Need Abortion Care—but the US Is Standing in Their Way

An international campaign is demanding that the US overturn the Helms amendment, saying it defies the Geneva Conventions.

In 1973, Jesse Helms, a newly elected United States senator and an ideologue contemptuous of the United Nations, dismissive of international treaties and completely devoid of compassion for the world’s poor, put his name on an amendment to the landmark 1961 United States foreign assistance act banning any use of US funds to support abortion in family planning globally.

Over more than four decades, the Helms amendment has been reinterpreted, reinforced, and expanded in American aid policy to the point of rising to a violation of internationally recognized rights of women.

An international campaign is now urgently demanding that the United States put an end to this policy, saying that the Helms amendment defies the Geneva Conventions on the rules of war, which the US has pledged to uphold since the 1950s.

The US is effectively violating the universally accepted nondiscriminatory healthcare provision in the conventions by forcing its prohibitions on abortion on medical aid work by others in conflict areas.

In an age of unconventional warfare and terrorism, thousands of women suffer and die as a consequence of rape and other sexual abuses. Those who survive need a lot of help to repair their battered bodies—and sometimes that includes abortion.

“The US abortion ban is a major reason that female war rape victims around the world are being denied abortions in humanitarian medical facilities,” the letter said. “This is a matter of utmost urgency as recently demonstrated by the use of rape and forced impregnation by extremist groups such as ISIL and Boko Haram as tactics of warfare to further their ideological goals.”

http://www.thenation.com/article/women-and-girls-raped-in-conflict-need-abortion-care-but-the-us-is-standing-in-their-way/

Jesse Helms, the racist Confederate "Christian" south and the Repug rape caucus ("you're rape baby is a gift from God") fucking up America and the planet, "for Christ".

[boutons_deux]

Batman and Robin bitch slapped

Mike Lee and Ted Cruz’s Effort To Defund Planned Parenthood Gets Squashed By Senate

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/27/mike-lee-ted-cruzs-efforts-defund-planned-parenthood-rebuffed-senate.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+politicususa%2FfJAl+%28Politi cus+USA+%29

[Winehole23]

blasts from the past, video hoaxes prompt swift political reaction:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134685
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159389

[Winehole23]

very effective, politically speaking. that they were totally deceptive is a more or less impotent afterthought.

[boutons_deux]

very effective, politically speaking. that they were totally deceptive is a more or less impotent afterthought.

LIES repeated often enough are taken as truth, and Repugs, Fox and accomplices are non-stop, coordinated LIARS.

"PP sells parts from aborted fetuses" is very certainly taken by Ms, if not 10Ms, as the Bible thumping, Godly revealed TRUTH.

[Slutter McGee]

What are yall liberals going to do when technology eventually destroys your moral justification for abortion? Probably show your true colors and still support it is my guess.

Slutter McGee

[Spurminator]

What are yall liberals going to do when technology eventually destroys your moral justification for abortion? Probably show your true colors and still support it is my guess.

Slutter McGee

Depends on the technology I guess. How invasive is it, what are the requirements you're placing on women to submit to it, etc? Provided the donation of a fetus to life-saving means is less invasive than abortion itself, I'd have no problem phasing out abortion completely.

The more realistic opponent to this is conservatives. They will find reasons to oppose the technology by saying it's not 100% reliable, not 100% safe, not God's will, that women will regret giving up the fetus, and so on.

Because ultimately the conservative opposition to abortion comes from the fear that women will be sexually promiscuous without accountability.

[ChumpDumper]

What are yall liberals going to do when technology eventually destroys your moral justification for abortion? Probably show your true colors and still support it is my guess.

Slutter McGeeIt would be great if it abortion were completely obviated through the choice of women and men. Too bad conservatives don't want that to happen.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol
Eleven pages of convoluted apologist rationalization, but planned parenthood clearly got caught on tape negotiating prices for fetus body parts.

Why is this so hard to admit?

[ChumpDumper]

lol clearly

[boutons_deux]

:lol
Eleven pages of convoluted apologist rationalization, but planned parenthood clearly got caught on tape negotiating prices for fetus body parts.

Why is this so hard to admit?

it's a gray area, but the buyers were illegal, frauds, and the sales are to cover costs only, not for profit. Why is that so hard to admit? defunding PP would KILL health care for Ms of women, but go right ahead, Bible thumpers, fuck over poor women for your mythical Christ. He was very nasty to the poor Himself.

[CosmicCowboy]

lol clearly

what is unclear to you? It was a price negotiation and preliminary agreement. Changing harvest method to something less "crunchy" (her words) to improve usable yield was also discussed.

i'm not outraged by the practice but your blind defense and refusal to admit they were negotiating selling fetus body parts is laughable.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol Boutons "gray area"

[ChumpDumper]

what is unclear to you? It was a price negotiation and preliminary agreement. Changing harvest method to something less "crunchy" (her words) to improve usable yield was also discussed.

i'm not outraged by the practice but your blind defense and refusal to admit they were negotiating selling fetus body parts is laughable.Has she been arrested?

[CosmicCowboy]

Has she been arrested?

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/files/18002/wide_article/width926x450/3q3bvxxf-1353902236.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/files/18002/wide_article/width926x450/3q3bvxxf-1353902236.jpghttp://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/4-7-Million-Lamborghini-Veneno-0.jpg

[CosmicCowboy]

The Lamborghini reference was clearly a joke. I'm OK with that.

[boutons_deux]

:lol Boutons "gray area"

the dispute has raised questions about who the buyers and sellers are, what fetal tissue is used for and what the law allows.

(http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/health/fetal-tissue-from-abortions-for-research-is-traded-in-a-gray-zone.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0#story-continues-2)
Scientists at major universities and government labs have quietly been using fetal tissue for decades.

They say it is an invaluable tool for certain types of research, including the study of eye diseases, diabetes (http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/diabetes/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) andmuscular dystrophy (http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/muscular-dystrophy/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier).

Nevertheless, some agree to talk about it only if their names and their universities’ names are withheld, because they have received threats of violence from abortion opponents.

Companies that obtain the tissue from clinics and sell it to laboratories exist in a gray zone, legally. Federal law says they cannot profit from the tissue itself, but the law does not specify how much they can charge for processing and shipping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/health/fetal-tissue-from-abortions-for-research-is-traded-in-a-gray-zone.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

[ChumpDumper]

The Lamborghini reference was clearly a joke. I'm OK with that.This whole episode is clearly a joke.

[CosmicCowboy]

What is funny is watching you and boutons squirm. Legal or not that bitch was negotiating to sell fetal baby parts and even discussing changing their procedures to maximize production and revenue. Is what it is. They would only get paid for viable parts so she discussed changing the whole procedure to maximize viability. You just can't squirm around that.

[Th'Pusher]

What is funny is watching you and boutons squirm. Legal or not that bitch was negotiating to sell fetal baby parts and even discussing changing their procedures to maximize production and revenue. Is what it is. They would only get paid for viable parts so she discussed changing the whole procedure to maximize viability. You just can't squirm around that.

She negotiated under protest. She was fine throwing out a price of $50 to recoup her cost but the "buyer" negotiated the price UP to $100.

As a business owner, would you employ those same tactics when negotiating cost? :lol

[RandomGuy]

That's right.

Rationalize...

I am being serious. I am talking about the ethical issues involved, and how we will approach them.

Our technological capabilities will start blurring the lines, and already are in many cases.

In this case, all we have is reason and empathy to navigate the issue.

In this case, we are talking about a cluster of cells that cannot survive outside the mothers body. This cluster does have the form and potential to be a human being, yes.

But I would not define it as a "baby". In this case, semantics are important. For all practical purposes, an embryo and developing fetus are part of the mothers body.

That makes it NOT a baby. This is not a rationalization or attempt to avoid something.

Rationalizing is calling something what it isn't, then forcing a woman to be pregnant against her will based on that definition.

[RandomGuy]

She negotiated under protest. She was fine throwing out a price of $50 to recoup her cost but the "buyer" negotiated the price UP to $100.

As a business owner, would you employ those same tactics when negotiating cost? :lol

The "buyer" was attempting to get the woman to do something illegal, which was make a profit. The law allows for "reasonable" cost recovery.

The fact that the planned parenthood rep stressed the legal and ethical issues, and planned parenthood's commitment to both was left out of the edited tape. Thankfully the people attempting to get the "gotcha" footage were at least honest enough to post the full transcripts.

[RandomGuy]

LOL...

A "He said - She said" argument.

LOL...

Actually Fox news hosts, including O'Reilly have made a slew of statements that are provably wrong. It goes far beyond mere opinion.

[RandomGuy]

What is funny is watching you and boutons squirm. Legal or not that bitch was negotiating to sell fetal baby parts and even discussing changing their procedures to maximize production and revenue. Is what it is. They would only get paid for viable parts so she discussed changing the whole procedure to maximize viability. You just can't squirm around that.

"fetal body parts" = donated tissue, as noted.

If there is a researcher that wants a specific type of tissue that requires different methods, that would seem to be a valid, if somewhat gross, topic of discussion.

Also left out of the video was the PP representative talking about the types of medical research that tissue is used for, and it is a slew of the big ones, parkinsons, etc., and a lot of the muscle wasting diseases.

[z0sa]

Disgusting, tbh. I don't care if it's legal, it's not right. But, like others have said, if the baby is already fucking dead, then who cares about going even further and "donating" or "selling" or whatever you want to call it, right? It's just like any animal, now.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol clipperabortion :lol

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Assuming abortion will be banned again, what do you pro-life, Bible humpin, Christ lovin rightwingnuts propose to do with several 100K of wanted pregnancies EVERY YEAR?

[ChumpDumper]

What is funny is watching you and boutons squirm. Legal or not that bitch was negotiating to sell fetal baby parts and even discussing changing their procedures to maximize production and revenue. Is what it is. They would only get paid for viable parts so she discussed changing the whole procedure to maximize viability. You just can't squirm around that.Who's squirming? If women want to donate, why not do it the way that will help the most?

[CosmicCowboy]

i'm pro abortion and really don't care if they want to sell aborted fetuses. Just be honest and call it what it was. They were negotiating the sale and even discussed changing their medical procedures to maximize the harvest and thus maximize the proceeds.

[Spurminator]

i'm pro abortion and really don't care if they want to sell aborted fetuses. Just be honest and call it what it was. They were negotiating the sale and even discussed changing their medical procedures to maximize the harvest and thus maximize the proceeds.

Or, maximize efficiency to reduce the spend necessary in this process. We're not talking about a lot of money here. Y'all act like PP is making some kind of killing on fetal tissue.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL more spin. They are selling fetus's. The only additional "cost" to them is the trip to the bank to deposit the checks.

[Spurminator]

LOL more spin. They are selling fetus's. The only additional "cost" to them is the trip to the bank to deposit the checks.

Factcheck.org:

Four experts in the field of human tissue procurement told us the price range discussed in the video — $30 to $100 per patient — represents a reasonable fee. “There’s no way there’s a profit at that price,” said Sherilyn J. Sawyer (http://cohortsbio.bwh.harvard.edu/leadership/administration/), the director of Harvard University and Brigham and Women’s Hospital’s “biorepository.”

At one point in the unedited video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4UjIM9B9KQ) (which was also released by the group), Nucatola says (http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PPFAtranscript072514_final.pdf): “Affiliates are not looking to make money by doing this. They’re looking to serve their patients and just make it not impact their bottom line.”
Nucatola also says, “No one’s going to see this as a money making thing.” And at another point, she says, “Our goal, like I said, is to give patients the option without impacting our bottom line. The messaging is this should not be seen as a new revenue stream, because that’s not what it is.”


http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/

The only spin is coming from people duped by these videos.

Some shit is disturbing. Watching a brain surgery is disturbing. Watching brain surgeons discuss brain surgery over dinner is disturbing. Doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Spurminator]

I seriously can't believe anyone would think an organization illegally selling human tissue for profit would be accepting $30. This isn't weed.

[spurraider21]

can somebody give me the cliffnotes on exactly what happened? i havent bothered actually sitting through that video or reading the dozens of articles that have been posted, so i legitimately have no clue what's happened outside of reading these headlines :lol

- did they or didn't they sell human tissue
- is that act legal or illegal

[CosmicCowboy]

Spin, spin. When asked if $100 per fetus was enough she also said she would have to check around and see what everyone else was getting. That's selling fetus's guys. Just admit it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Who said illegal? It's a loophole. They can be reimbursed for "cost". Only "cost" is handing the fetus to the buyer for scoring for viability and reimbursement. Reasonable cost is not defined. Bottom line the single facility they were talking about did hundreds of abortions a year. Selling the uncrunched ( her words) fetus turns into hundreds X hundreds of dollars a year which ain't chicken feed.

[ChumpDumper]

Who said illegal? It's a loophole. They can be reimbursed for "cost". Only "cost" is handing the fetus to the buyer for scoring for viability and reimbursement. Reasonable cost is not defined. Bottom line the single facility they were talking about did hundreds of abortions a year. Selling the uncrunched ( her words) fetus turns into hundreds X hundreds of dollars a year which ain't chicken feed.So what is the actual cost of the costs you mentioned?

Also, what is the actual value of human fetus tissue in an open market?

[CosmicCowboy]

Cost is negligible.

Value is negotiable. She also said there were other players in the fetus market she was talking to. Apparently $100 was ballpark but she was going to check around and see if other clinics were getting more. Again, her words.

[CosmicCowboy]

Btw, I didn't watch the video until I saw how excited chump and boutons were about defending her. Where there is a smoke screen there is typically fire. I utubed it and yeah, she was clearly negotiating selling fetus.

[ChumpDumper]

Cost is negligible.And you know this because....?

[ChumpDumper]

Btw, I didn't watch the video until I saw how excited chump and boutons were about defending her. Where there is a smoke screen there is typically fire. I utubed it and yeah, she was clearly negotiating selling fetus.Did you watch the full video?

[CosmicCowboy]

Nope, didn't need to. Her words were clear. She could have said a dozen times she wasn't selling fetus and that doesn't change that was exactly what she was doing. Everybody in prison says they are innocent too.

[ChumpDumper]

Nope, didn't need to. Her words were clear. She could have said a dozen times she wasn't selling fetus and that doesn't change that was exactly what she was doing. Everybody in prison says they are innocent too.lol another sucker.

I thought you were smarter than this.

Get back to me with those itemized costs you got from selling all those fetuses.

[Spurminator]

Yeah CC you're better than to be duped by this. Read up.

[ddjeffries]

that 3rd video was the worst so far, IMO. haggling over how much they could make and how they didn't want to low ball it so they could make more, makes me sick.

[boutons_deux]

The Repugs refuse to pass a multi-year highway funding plan, not enough time, but they can RACE to defund PP after a fabricated, dishonest, probably illegal sting.

Senate GOP Fast-Tracks Bill To Defund Planned Parenthood

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/senate-gop-fast-tracks-bill-to-defund-planned-parenthood_55b8274ae4b0074ba5a6bc43?kpvz33di&ncid=newsltushpmg00000003

you rightwingnuts elect REPEATEDLY total assholes. Thanks, rightwingnuts!

[boutons_deux]

Radical Anti-Abortion Activists Descend on Alabama

Supporters of the extreme anti-abortion group Operation Save America recently spent a week in a handful of Alabama cities, protesting abortion, same-sex marriage and Islam, as they have done for a number of years in different regions of the country.

Mia Raven, a volunteer escort at the facility and director of legislative affairs for Alabama Reproductive Rights Advocates, explains how the clinic usually sees just a few protesters, but with Operation Save America in town, the scene is "completely different." She explains the long history of violence aimed at abortion clinics in Alabama and elsewhere in the country, and says she's not immune to fears of such violence. "I do not take the same route to the clinic, ever," she says. "Every morning we have the bomb squad come in [to] sweep the clinic.""It's very frightening. You have to watch your back when you do this kind of work in Alabama."

National Clinic Access Project Director Duvergne Gaines notes that John Brockhoeft – who has served prison time (http://www.abc2news.com/news/wcpo-in-his-war-against-abortion-clinic-fire-bomber-has-no-regrets1368562588801) for firebombing abortion clinics – was in town (http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/07/abortion_rights_group_files_et.html) during Operation Save America's week of action.

Alabama (http://data.rhrealitycheck.org/state/alabama/) is one of a dozen states to have in effect a ban on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy; legal experts widely consider such legislation to be unconstitutional. The state also has a law on the books that allows courts to appoint lawyers for fetuses (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ouq3mw/the-unborn-ultimatum).

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/videos/radical-anti-abortion-activists-descend-on-alabama-20150728?utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=daily&utm_campaign=072815_16&utm_medium=email&ea=bGNvbnJhZEBnbzJmcmFuY2UuY29t

Fucking Confederacy, fucking Confederate Southern Baptist Bible humpers (1000s of whose women have had abortions).

[honestfool84]

Fourth Undercover Planned Parenthood Video Released — and It’s Graphic - Jul. 30, 2015 10:39am

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/30/heres-a-stomach-heart-kidney-fourth-undercover-planned-parenthood-video-purportedly-shows-official-pushing-sale-of-intact-babies/

[Winehole23]

damning info from the investigation in Indiana:


Indiana on Thursday cleared Planned Parenthood facilities that perform abortions in the state of any wrongdoing in the handling of fetal tissue.

Gov. Mike Pence, a Republican, on July 16 ordered an investigation of Planned Parenthood facilities in Indianapolis, Bloomington and Merrillville to see if organs from aborted fetuses were being sold. He was among a number of conservative lawmakers around the country who have called for investigations after an anti-abortion group circulated a video it made secretly showing some of its national officials discussing how they obtain organs from aborted fetuses for research. Planned Parenthood, the nation's largest provider of abortions, has said its donations of fetal tissue for research are legal.


The Indiana Department of Health said in a statement Thursday that an investigation found no evidence of any laws being broken. Health department inspectors investigated the Indiana facilities on July 21.


Letters from the health department to the three Indiana facilities dated Tuesday and released to the media by Planned Parenthood said the agency had completed its investigation into the Planned Parenthood facilities that perform abortions in Indiana. The letters said the agency was "unable to find any non-compliance with state regulations. Therefore, no deficiencies were cited." The letters say the complaint is closed.

[boutons_deux]

damning info from the investigation in Indiana:

It's ALL legal. And Fed $$ aren't use for abortions. Repugs and Bible humpers fabricating outrage to inflame the base.

Repugs, Bible humpers, pro-lifers, 10Ks of whom have gotten abortions, offer NO ALTERNATIVE to abortion.

[Spurminator]

damning info from the investigation in Indiana:

They must be in on it! Planned Parenthood clearly paid the investigators off with their lucrative gains in the $30 fetal organ black market.

Who are you going to believe, these investigators, or a video on the internet?

[Nbadan]

MORE bogus wing nut outrage....anyone really surprised?

[ddjeffries]

8-10 more damning videos to be released. Some may take a month or so, have to wait for the temporary to run out on any of them that mention Stem Express.

[ddjeffries]

It's ALL legal. And Fed $$ aren't use for abortions. Repugs and Bible humpers fabricating outrage to inflame the base.

Repugs, Bible humpers, pro-lifers, 10Ks of whom have gotten abortions, offer NO ALTERNATIVE to abortion.

id say adoption but you are correct, there is no alternative to death.

[boutons_deux]

8-10 more damning videos to be released.

they have all been and certainly will be heavily edited hoaxes, exactly like Fox vids, O'Keefe shit.

[ddjeffries]

they have all been and certainly will be heavily edited hoaxes, exactly like Fox vids, O'Keefe shit.

Then don't watch the edited versions. The full versions were posted at the same time. Here I'll link them for you.

https://youtu.be/H4UjIM9B9KQ

https://youtu.be/vwAGsjoorvk

https://youtu.be/wV2U9unI1NM

[boutons_deux]

Then don't watch the edited versions. The full versions were posted at the same time. Here I'll link them for you.

https://youtu.be/H4UjIM9B9KQ

https://youtu.be/vwAGsjoorvk

https://youtu.be/wV2U9unI1NM

anything ILLEGAL in there?

[ddjeffries]

PP haggling over pricing for different specimens. That would be the illegal part. But you should watch the video and not take my word for it.

[boutons_deux]

SOUTHERN racist Baptist Bible humpin rightwingnuts

The Latest Anti-Choice Move: Try to Take Custody of a Woman's Fetus

States have tried all sorts of things (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/28/anti-planned-parenthood-videos-abortion) to prevent women from having abortions. They’ve enacted waiting periods, ultrasound laws and parental notifications. They’ve passed laws that force doctors to lie to women (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/04/lawsuit-challenges-controversial-provision-in-arizona-abortion-law) and force women tovisit with ideological zealots (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/us/23sdakota.html?_r=0). Some legislators have even attempted to make women get a man’s consent (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/22/planned-parenthood-missouri-abortion-permission-father) before obtaining the procedure – a paternalistic permission slip (http://kfor.com/2014/12/21/proposed-abortion-bill-would-require-fathers-written-consent/) to access their legal rights.

But Alabama (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/alabama) has brought efforts to restrict abortion to a whole new level, as the state tried this week to stop a woman from getting an abortion by terminating her parental rights... to her fetus.

District attorney Chris Connolly filed a petition to terminate an incarcerated woman’s parental rights for the sole purpose of stopping her from ending her pregnancy. The woman, known as Jane Doe, had filed a lawsuit in order to be granted a furlough to obtain the procedure. Connolly told a local paper (http://www.timesdaily.com/news/crime/da-parental-rights-issue-will-have-bearing-on-abortion-request/article_4d3bd36e-856b-5c4f-b523-714b2329539b.html), “Our position, if the termination for parental rights is granted, is that [she] would not have standing to obtain the abortion.” He’s arguing that Doe’s parental rights should be rescinded because she is facing charges (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alabama-inmate-parental-rights-abortion_55b9056ee4b0224d8834ca9b?07ctyb9) of chemical endangerment of a child.

http://www.alternet.org/gender/latest-anti-choice-move-try-take-custody-womans-fetus

[ddjeffries]

SOUTHERN racist Baptist Bible humpin rightwingnuts

The Latest Anti-Choice Move: Try to Take Custody of a Woman's Fetus

States have tried all sorts of things (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/28/anti-planned-parenthood-videos-abortion) to prevent women from having abortions. They’ve enacted waiting periods, ultrasound laws and parental notifications. They’ve passed laws that force doctors to lie to women (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/04/lawsuit-challenges-controversial-provision-in-arizona-abortion-law) and force women tovisit with ideological zealots (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/us/23sdakota.html?_r=0). Some legislators have even attempted to make women get a man’s consent (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/22/planned-parenthood-missouri-abortion-permission-father) before obtaining the procedure – a paternalistic permission slip (http://kfor.com/2014/12/21/proposed-abortion-bill-would-require-fathers-written-consent/) to access their legal rights.

But Alabama (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/alabama) has brought efforts to restrict abortion to a whole new level, as the state tried this week to stop a woman from getting an abortion by terminating her parental rights... to her fetus.

District attorney Chris Connolly filed a petition to terminate an incarcerated woman’s parental rights for the sole purpose of stopping her from ending her pregnancy. The woman, known as Jane Doe, had filed a lawsuit in order to be granted a furlough to obtain the procedure. Connolly told a local paper (http://www.timesdaily.com/news/crime/da-parental-rights-issue-will-have-bearing-on-abortion-request/article_4d3bd36e-856b-5c4f-b523-714b2329539b.html), “Our position, if the termination for parental rights is granted, is that [she] would not have standing to obtain the abortion.” He’s arguing that Doe’s parental rights should be rescinded because she is facing charges (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alabama-inmate-parental-rights-abortion_55b9056ee4b0224d8834ca9b?07ctyb9) of chemical endangerment of a child.

http://www.alternet.org/gender/latest-anti-choice-move-try-take-custody-womans-fetus




What does this have to do with PP allegedly selling aborted baby parts? The argument isn't over abortion, it's over federal law banning the sale of human remains and altering abortion procedures in order to obtain intact specimens.

Clearly you are just going to ignore the subject at hand and refuse to even watch the videos to see what they are alleging.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What does this have to do with PP allegedly selling aborted baby parts? The argument isn't over abortion, it's over federal law banning the sale of human remains and altering abortion procedures in order to obtain intact specimens.

Clearly you are just going to ignore the subject at hand and refuse to even watch the videos to see what they are alleging.

So far one state health inspector closed the complaint taking no action after inspecting the facilities. I know you want your Breitbart style entrapment to be definitive.

the law is about selling the remains for profit. there is nothing about negotiating price when there are costs concerned. Are you angling for funerals or something?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't know how you become more contrived political theater than by this slow rolling the release of youtubes.

[ddjeffries]

So far one state health inspector closed the complaint taking no action after inspecting the facilities. I know you want your Breitbart style entrapment to be definitive.

the law is about selling the remains for profit. there is nothing about negotiating price when there are costs concerned. Are you angling for funerals or something?

entrapment? How about an investigation? And no, one inspector going through one set of facilities is not an investigation. Who knows what a proper investigation would find? But these videos are MORE then enough for an investigation.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

entrapment? How about an investigation? And no, one inspector going through one set of facilities is not an investigation. Who knows what a proper investigation would find? But these videos are MORE then enough for an investigation.

the two notions are not mutually exclusive. investigators can and do entrap all the time.

this gotcha find the corrupt employee bit is the tactic of the fake GOP breitbart cottage industry. They did this same thing trying to prove voter fraud last year. your website doesn't get to have an authoritative investigation and if you take that shit as gospel your an idiot. As has been pointed out, state health inspectors are inspecting the issue in addition to the other required inspections. One has already closed the case and found no substance to the allegations.

:lol Now the state health inspectors isn't a valid investigator but your youtubes are?

You can cross your fingers and hope one of the others have legs if you like. Seeing how the GOP push for the Planned Parenthood shutdown is rumbling I think you make a good rube frankly. That is the path your 'leadership' is taking you and your dumb as hell if you don't think that it's orchestrated.

[boutons_deux]

federal law banning the sale of human remains

which law is that? chapter and verse.

[ChumpDumper]

entrapment? How about an investigation? And no, one inspector going through one set of facilities is not an investigation. Who knows what a proper investigation would find? But these videos are MORE then enough for an investigation.I bet nothing comes of these "investigations."

[boutons_deux]

Much of the controversy stems from a lack of widespread public knowledge of who buys and sells fetal tissue, what it is used for, and what the law allows regarding its purchase and sale. Scientists have been using such material in medical research for decades to study (and possibly develop cures for) a number of diseases and medical ailments, but commercial fetal tissue transactions take place in something of a legal gray zone: agencies may sell fetal tissue that has been “donated” for that purpose (through abortion), but they may not profit from it. According to federal law they may only charge for the processing and shipping involved in transferring the material from donor to purchaser, but the law doesn’t regulate how much they may charge.


According to the New York Times:

The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on research using fetal tissue in 2014 with grants to more than 50 universities, including Columbia, Harvard, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Stanford, Yale and the University of California in Berkeley, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. It expects to spend the same amount in 2015 and 2016.

Researchers say fetal tissue is a uniquely rich source of the stem cells that give rise to tissues and organs, and that studying how they develop can provide clues about how to grow replacements for parts of the body that have failed

“Think of fetal tissue as a kind of instruction booklet,” said Sheldon Miller, the scientific director of the intramural research program at the National Eye Institute.
“We couldn’t get this information any other way,” Dr. Miller said. He said the eye institute bought fetal tissue from a company, created specialized cultures of retinal tissue from it and sent them to other researchers.


Fetal tissue may only be used or sold post-abortion with the consent of the woman undergoing the procedure. Although some researchers may obtain fetal tissue directly from abortion clinics at their own medical facilities, others have to purchase it from middlemen who pay fees to providers such as Planned Parenthood for specimens and then resell those specimens to researchers. Planned Parenthood maintains they charge only what the law allows (i.e., what they need to cover their expenses in such transactions), while the middlemen charge a markup to cover their processing costs. But regulation of these types of transactions is somewhat murky:

The fees, which can run to thousands of dollars for a tiny vial of cells, do not break the law, according to Arthur Caplan, the director of the division of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.

“It appears to be legal, no matter how much you charge,” Dr. Caplan said, adding that there appears to be little or no oversight of the processing fees. “It’s a very gray and musty area as to what you can charge.”


However, these transactions often involve far more than simply conveying fetal tissue from one place to another — they can also require very expensive processing and shipping necessary to satisfy the requirements of end purchasers:

StemExpress uses procurement technicians to obtain fetal tissue. “We’re collecting biohazardous waste, discarded waste,” [founder Cate] Dyer said. “They go to a hospital or to a facility that does terminations and collect tissues from those waste products.”

Back at the company, lab technicians process the tissue to try to isolate the specific cell type a researcher has ordered — for instance, fetal liver stem cells.

“These cells are hard to isolate,” Ms. Dyer said. “These are hard processes, expensive processes that take millions of dollars of equipment. Just to attempt to do some of these isolations can cost us thousands of dollars, and it may not even work.”

The effort is reflected in the pricing: a vial containing five million frozen fetal liver CD133+ stem cells can cost more than $24,000.

The final products are shipped fresh or frozen. Shipping fees are separate from specimen costs, and an overnight shipment to Germany, for example, can cost thousands of dollars, according to Ms. Dyer.


A StemExpress brochure (http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/StemExpress-flyer.pdf) publicized by the organization Center for Medical Progress includes an endorsement from a Planned Parenthood official, Dr. Dorothy Furgerson, who was quoted as saying: “Our partnership with StemExpress is beneficial in a number of ways.” Planned Parenthood critics pointed out that the brochure included several references to the financial benefits for clinics of fetal tissue sales, such as a statement that a partnership with StemExpress “will also be contributing to the fiscal growth of your own clinic.” The wording of this promotional material has been proffered as evidence that abortion clinics are illegally profiting from fetal tissue sales.

The public scrutiny of fetal tissue sales brought about by the Center for Medical Progress videos may bring additional oversight (or even legal changes) to the practice:

George J. Annas, a law professor and bioethicist at Boston University, said, “What’s going on now is probably legal, but Congress won’t like it.”

Regarding the companies, Mr. Annas said: “They won’t be real happy that this is all out in the public. This threatens their business. Even if what they’re doing is legal, the law can easily be changed.”


Read more at http://m.snopes.com/fetal-tissue-sales/#5owdFWqusiIopjzm.99

A gray area that the anti-lifers and Repugs and Bible humpers will definitely try to turn into a black (illegal) area, blocking medical research.

[Winehole23]

I bet nothing comes of these "investigations."Congress and red state legislatures will defund PP.

[boutons_deux]

Congress and red state legislatures will defund PP.

... which will, like Repugs closing health clinics in TX, increase unwanted pregnancies for want of contraception, increase perinatal deaths of mother and child for want of perinatal care, and increase abortions (estimated +20K abortions/year in TX).

But in dog-eat-dog "Christian" America, those poor dogs don't count, while all the non-poor dogs will continue to get contraception, perinatal care, and abortions.

[Winehole23]

just curious, where do you get the figure on increased abortions?

[boutons_deux]

just curious, where do you get the figure on increased abortions?

on the innertubes, of course. The article said TX avgs about 80K abortions/year before Repugs closed the clinics and that closed clinics (no free contraception) could increase TX abortions by about 20K/year. I can't remember if it said how many unwanted, but non-aborted, pregnancies would occur. Repugs fuck up everything they touch, "for Christ Whom they love so much". 20K abortions more "dying for Repugs sins".

[Winehole23]

share the link?

[boutons_deux]

share the link?

had to search this, but it could be this one

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/06/texas-abortion-law/4339335/

[Winehole23]

not quite. thanks for trying.


Texas Solicitor General Jonathan Mitchell said the groups had no way of knowing how clinics would be affected by the law before it took effect. Jones and Haynes also cast doubt on the groups' forecast that the privileges requirement would force at least one-third of the state's abortion clinics to close, denying more than 20,000 women access to an abortion annually.

I guess we'll just have to take your word for it that shuttering PP leads to more abortions.

[boutons_deux]

not quite. thanks for trying.

I guess we'll just have to take your word for it that shuttering PP leads to more abortions.

but you believe a compromised, politicized Repug solicitor general? :lol

[Th'Pusher]

share the link?

The tissue trade

Dislike of abortion and support for Planned Parenthood should go together

Aug 1st 2015 | NEW YORK | From the print edition (http://www.economist.com/printedition/2015-08-01)http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20150801_USC252.png
EVEN ardent advocates of a woman’s right to an abortion may grow queasy from watching a series of undercover videos of meetings with representatives from Planned Parenthood, a national group that offers reproductive-health services, including abortions. In order to harvest hearts, lungs and “as many intact livers as possible” from aborted fetuses, providers use ultrasound to make sure they do not “crush that part,” explains Deborah Nucatola, a medical director for the group, between sips of wine. Another shows a medical executive named Mary Gatter apparently negotiating the sale of fetal “specimens”.
The videos come courtesy of the Centre for Medical Progress, an anti-abortion pressure group. The three released since July 14th have been watched millions of times, and the group promises “thousands of hours” more. It says the videos show that Planned Parenthood is running a “black market for baby parts”, which is illegal. Planned Parenthood denies this claim, and the recordings do not quite prove that the organisation is profiting from these transactions. But abortion providers at their health centres are apparently aware of the value of fetal tissue, which scientists need for a wide array of medical research. And the videos, with their casual talk of “suction” or a “less crunchy technique”, make for powerful propaganda.
Ted Cruz, a senator from Texas, stirred crowds at an anti-abortion rally on Capitol Hill on July 28th with calls for a federal criminal investigation. Rand Paul, a senator from Kentucky, has been keen to perk up his poll numbers by leading a fight to “strip every dollar” of government funding from Planned Parenthood, which counts on federal and state coffers for nearly $530m of its $1.3m annual budget. Senate Republicans plan to vote on defunding the organisation before the August recess.
Polls show that pro-life voters are in the minority, but they punch above their weight because they care more about where politicians stand on the issue. Surveys find that most Americans support keeping abortion legal within the first weeks of conception; but this sympathy plummets once the woman enters her second trimester, and nearly disappears when she reaches her third (see chart), by which time ultrasounds offer more detailed pictures of fingers and toes. Campaigners have worked with this discomfort. Twelve states now require abortion providers to proffer details about a fetus’s ability to feel pain; ten mandate an ultrasound (though it is not medically necessary); and 14 have introduced bans on an abortion 20 weeks after conception.
Defunding Planned Parenthood may seem a logical next step. But federal funding for abortion is already banned, except in cases of rape, incest or where a woman’s life is in danger. Moreover, much of Planned Parenthood’s work involves preventing unplanned pregnancies in the first place. Of the 2.7m patients who used one of its clinics in 2013, eight in ten came for contraception. Three-quarters had incomes at or below 150% of the federal poverty level. These demographics matter because abortion trends divide by income: the rate for well-off women has dropped by nearly 30% in 20 years, whereas for poor women it has climbed nearly 20%. This is largely because poor women, with worse schooling and not much access to health care, are five times more likely to become pregnant unexpectedly.
For every public dollar spent on contraception, the government saves $5.68 in Medicaid spending on pregnancies, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a pro-choice NGO. Planned Parenthood reaches over a third of all qualifying patients, making it the biggest provider of these services. In addition, its clinics carried out 500,000 screenings for breast cancer and 4.5m tests for sexually-transmitted diseases in 2013. The number of abortions performed each year in America has fallen by a third since 1990. Without Planned Parenthood it would be far higher.

From the print edition: United States (http://www.economist.com/printedition/2015-08-01)

[TheSanityAnnex]

Much of the controversy stems from a lack of widespread public knowledge of who buys and sells fetal tissue, what it is used for, and what the law allows regarding its purchase and sale. Scientists have been using such material in medical research for decades to study (and possibly develop cures for) a number of diseases and medical ailments, but commercial fetal tissue transactions take place in something of a legal gray zone: agencies may sell fetal tissue that has been “donated” for that purpose (through abortion), but they may not profit from it. According to federal law they may only charge for the processing and shipping involved in transferring the material from donor to purchaser, but the law doesn’t regulate how much they may charge.


According to the New York Times:

The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on research using fetal tissue in 2014 with grants to more than 50 universities, including Columbia, Harvard, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Stanford, Yale and the University of California in Berkeley, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. It expects to spend the same amount in 2015 and 2016.

Researchers say fetal tissue is a uniquely rich source of the stem cells that give rise to tissues and organs, and that studying how they develop can provide clues about how to grow replacements for parts of the body that have failed

“Think of fetal tissue as a kind of instruction booklet,” said Sheldon Miller, the scientific director of the intramural research program at the National Eye Institute.
“We couldn’t get this information any other way,” Dr. Miller said. He said the eye institute bought fetal tissue from a company, created specialized cultures of retinal tissue from it and sent them to other researchers.


Fetal tissue may only be used or sold post-abortion with the consent of the woman undergoing the procedure. Although some researchers may obtain fetal tissue directly from abortion clinics at their own medical facilities, others have to purchase it from middlemen who pay fees to providers such as Planned Parenthood for specimens and then resell those specimens to researchers. Planned Parenthood maintains they charge only what the law allows (i.e., what they need to cover their expenses in such transactions), while the middlemen charge a markup to cover their processing costs. But regulation of these types of transactions is somewhat murky:

The fees, which can run to thousands of dollars for a tiny vial of cells, do not break the law, according to Arthur Caplan, the director of the division of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.

“It appears to be legal, no matter how much you charge,” Dr. Caplan said, adding that there appears to be little or no oversight of the processing fees. “It’s a very gray and musty area as to what you can charge.”


However, these transactions often involve far more than simply conveying fetal tissue from one place to another — they can also require very expensive processing and shipping necessary to satisfy the requirements of end purchasers:

StemExpress uses procurement technicians to obtain fetal tissue. “We’re collecting biohazardous waste, discarded waste,” [founder Cate] Dyer said. “They go to a hospital or to a facility that does terminations and collect tissues from those waste products.”

Back at the company, lab technicians process the tissue to try to isolate the specific cell type a researcher has ordered — for instance, fetal liver stem cells.

“These cells are hard to isolate,” Ms. Dyer said. “These are hard processes, expensive processes that take millions of dollars of equipment. Just to attempt to do some of these isolations can cost us thousands of dollars, and it may not even work.”

The effort is reflected in the pricing: a vial containing five million frozen fetal liver CD133+ stem cells can cost more than $24,000.

The final products are shipped fresh or frozen. Shipping fees are separate from specimen costs, and an overnight shipment to Germany, for example, can cost thousands of dollars, according to Ms. Dyer.


A StemExpress brochure (http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/StemExpress-flyer.pdf) publicized by the organization Center for Medical Progress includes an endorsement from a Planned Parenthood official, Dr. Dorothy Furgerson, who was quoted as saying: “Our partnership with StemExpress is beneficial in a number of ways.” Planned Parenthood critics pointed out that the brochure included several references to the financial benefits for clinics of fetal tissue sales, such as a statement that a partnership with StemExpress “will also be contributing to the fiscal growth of your own clinic.” The wording of this promotional material has been proffered as evidence that abortion clinics are illegally profiting from fetal tissue sales.

The public scrutiny of fetal tissue sales brought about by the Center for Medical Progress videos may bring additional oversight (or even legal changes) to the practice:

George J. Annas, a law professor and bioethicist at Boston University, said, “What’s going on now is probably legal, but Congress won’t like it.”

Regarding the companies, Mr. Annas said: “They won’t be real happy that this is all out in the public. This threatens their business. Even if what they’re doing is legal, the law can easily be changed.”


Read more at http://m.snopes.com/fetal-tissue-sales/#5owdFWqusiIopjzm.99

A gray area that the anti-lifers and Repugs and Bible humpers will definitely try to turn into a black (illegal) area, blocking medical research.




There shouldn't be a gray area though, and I'm not an anti-lifer/repug/bible humper either. And I don't care if what they were doing was perfectly legal. I think a lot of people such as myself are disgusted with how nonchalantly the people in the video were and how they cracked jokes about what they were doing. Some of the stuff that came out of their mouths was absolutely sick.

[Winehole23]

but you believe a compromised, politicized Repug solicitor general? :loldid I say I did?

the point of the quotation in #372 was to show it did not support your figure. until you can link a proper cite, you're standing on a threadbare assertion.

[ChumpDumper]

There shouldn't be a gray area though, and I'm not an anti-lifer/repug/bible humper either. And I don't care if what they were doing was perfectly legal. I think a lot of people such as myself are disgusted with how nonchalantly the people in the video were and how they cracked jokes about what they were doing. Some of the stuff that came out of their mouths was absolutely sick.:cry People should be nicer! :cry

[TheSanityAnnex]

:cry People should be nicer! :cry
Yes they should

[boutons_deux]

did I say I did?

the point of the quotation in #372 was to show it did not support your figure. until you can link a proper cite, you're standing on a threadbare assertion.

you ran with TX S.G. "debunking", "not supporting" the 20K number.

[Winehole23]

the 20k increase in abortions you cited as the probable result of closing PP, was nowhere to be found in the article you linked.

[Winehole23]

the quote I excerpted was the only reference to 20,000 in the article, and it doesn't support what you said.

[boutons_deux]

the 20k increase in abortions you cited as the probable result of closing PP, was nowhere to be found in the article you linked.

no, I read that the TX avg of 80K abortions/year from Repugs closing the clinics (admitting privileges, surgery quality facilities) would jump by 20K abortions in TX alone.

Not all, any?, those clinics were PP clinics.

TX Repug SG was debunking the 20K number, defending TX Repug sociopathy, BACK IN JAN 15, 6 months before the PP sting.

[boutons_deux]

Fetal tissue research has been with us a long time—and it's saved lives (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/01/1406989/-Fetal-tissue-research-has-been-with-us-a-long-time-and-it-s-saved-lives)

Scientists have worked with it since the 1930s. The 1954 Nobel Prize in medicine was awarded for work with fetal tissue that led to developing a vaccine against polio. [...]

Some experimental treatments for spinal cord injury and macular degeneration involve transplanting fetal cells into patients. And European researchers recently began a study of putting fetal tissue into patients' brains to treat Parkinson's disease [...]

And there's no possibility that Planned Parenthood in particular is "making a profit" by charging minor, sub-$100 fees. It's not happening (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/28/7-things-media-should-know-about-the-third-unde/204636).


Sawyer, July 20: In reality, $30-100 probably constitutes a loss for [Planned Parenthood]. The costs associated with collection, processing, storage, and inventory and records management for specimens are very high. Most hospitals will provide tissue blocks from surgical procedures (ones no longer needed for clinical purposes, and without identity) for research, and cost recover for their time and effort in the range of $100-500 per case/block. In the realm of tissues for research $30-100 is completely reasonable and normal fee.


The effort here is an attempt to use the "ick" factor of lifesaving medical research to shut down a women's health organization, and if that just happens to profoundly disrupt that medical research or leave the public with the impression that such medical research is illegal or immoral, that is deemed an acceptable casualty.

It is viciously cynical and deeply irresponsible—political malpractice would be the kindest way to put it, if you insist on terminology that hides the actual human lives that would be lost if such research were indeed shut down.

Time and time again religious opponents of abortion pipe up with fraudulent, manufactured propaganda efforts that would do great and long-lasting damage—that might outright kill people, in fact—if anyone were gullible enough to believe them, and we are supposed to believe that

God demands they peddle that fraud, because no other efforts have worked out and so He's keen on fraud so long as it's got His name attached.

The willing adoption of propaganda, of politically manufactured falsehoods that can easily be proven untrue but which are deemed so ideologically valuable that their fraudulent nature is deemed unimportant, is a dangerous way to run a nation. How is this not obvious? How is exposing such charlatanism not considered the highest badge of honor for a free press?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/01/1406989/-Fetal-tissue-research-has-been-with-us-a-long-time-and-it-s-saved-lives?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos %29#

[ddjeffries]

I bet nothing comes of these "investigations."

absolutely could happen, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't happen. These videos are more then enough to cue an investigation.

[ChumpDumper]

absolutely could happen, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't happen. These videos are more then enough to cue an investigation.An investigation for what?

What laws do you think were broken?

[ddjeffries]

which law is that? chapter and verse.

regarding fetal tissue specifically. And stop trolling.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/289g-2

[ddjeffries]

An investigation for what?

What laws do you think were broken?

They are alleging 42 US Code 289G-2. See above. OR WATCH THE VIDEOS AS THEY EXPLAIN IT.

[ChumpDumper]

regarding fetal tissue specifically. And stop trolling.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/289g-2


They are alleging 42 US Code 289G-2. See above. OR WATCH THE VIDEOS AS THEY EXPLAIN IT.Watched them.

Maybe you can explain what I missed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They are alleging 42 US Code 289G-2. See above. OR WATCH THE VIDEOS AS THEY EXPLAIN IT.


It shall be unlawful for any person to solicit

So what do you call what your 'investigators' are doing? Are they soliciting alleged illegal activity too?

[ddjeffries]

So what do you call what your 'investigators' are doing? Are they soliciting alleged illegal activity too?

That made no sense. That law is specific to fetal tissue.

[ddjeffries]

Watched them.

Maybe you can explain what I missed.

you need me to explain to you want the CMP is alleging? Just did and I can't dumb it down an further.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That made no sense. That law is specific to fetal tissue.

Exactly soliciting it is as much a crime as selling it. At least part of the 'investigation' was sending in agents to solicit the language they've been waving their hands at. From what I understand the suppressed stuff includes what could be considered illegal surveillance.

[ChumpDumper]

you need me to explain to you want the CMP is alleging? Just did and I can't dumb it down an further.Oh, the CMP.

Not any actual law enforcement agency.

Thanks.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I really don't think this is going to end pretty for our anti-abortion hopefuls. Vigilante investigations don't get the protections or authorities that a state sponsored one does.

[ddjeffries]

Exactly soliciting it is as much a crime as selling it. At least part of the 'investigation' was sending in agents to solicit the language they've been waving their hands at. From what I understand the suppressed stuff includes what could be considered illegal surveillance.

I gotcha. Ya absolutely, they could end being convicted of that but I'm guessing that wouldn't be explored if PP was found guilty.

I think the govt. is already investigating whether CMP's sting journalism is illegal which from what I have read so far, in Cali, as long you're in a public place there is no expectation of privacy so it's legal. But I'm no lawyer, just think this all is fishy.

[ddjeffries]

Oh, the CMP.

Not any actual law enforcement agency.

Thanks.

Several states have launched investigations. We'll see if the WH ever launches one, but I doubt it seeing as it's Dem.

[ChumpDumper]

Several states have launched investigations. We'll see if the WH ever launches one, but I doubt it seeing as it's Dem.
Several!

Not political at all!

The Texas hearings prove that!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I gotcha. Ya absolutely, they could end being convicted of that but I'm guessing that wouldn't be explored if PP was found guilty.

I think the govt. is already investigating whether CMP's sting journalism is illegal which from what I have read so far, in Cali, as long you're in a public place there is no expectation of privacy so it's legal. But I'm no lawyer, just think this all is fishy.

Well so far IN said it found no impropriety and a judge issued a court order against your boys. You keep hoping/praying or whatever you do.

[ddjeffries]

Well so far IN said it found no impropriety and a judge issued a court order against your boys. You keep hoping/praying or whatever you do.

a temporary restraining order from a liberal judge who fundraised for the Obama campaign so it's not hard too see where that one was going. And the court order, as I understand it, is only against videos that mention Stem Express, not all of them. We'll see what happens in he future.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yay Obama! I feel Sunday's sermon cooking up! Time to become Evangelical!

[Winehole23]

MA investigation:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/07/29/healey-mass-planned-parenthood-fully-compliant-with-law/Fc6pYYrY1ONGQvRTEqkWHK/story.html

[ddjeffries]

Thanks for the post. I wasn't aware of that investigation.

[Spurminator]

That's two investigations that found nothing. I bet someone still posts the next video.

[boutons_deux]

That's two investigations that found nothing. I bet someone still posts the next video.

selling fetal issue at cost isn't illegal, no matter what the attitude and tone of the buyers and sellers are. Attitude and tone aren't illegal.

btw, apparently fetal tissue research, as useful as it has been FOR DECADES, is declining.

As always, the fetal tissue sting, just like Christ would do, is only to fabricate outrage over a non-problem.

Killing PP would hurt Ms women, even kill some, but that's ok. "death paneling" adults is ok, esp when they're are poor non-whites.

anti-abortion is pro-birth, not pro-child.

[ChumpDumper]

selling fetal issue at cost isn't illegal, no matter what the attitude and tone of the buyers and sellers are.Yeah, these people would be the worst businessmen/women if that's all they were getting for fetal tissue.

[boutons_deux]

Planned Parenthood fight hits Congress — and the wider impact is unclear


http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Rally-against-the-CCBRs-anti-abortion-caravan-at-the-Vancouver-Art-Gallery-800x430.jpg

Women’s health group Planned Parenthood, under attack by anti-abortionists posting hidden-camera videos online, will be the focus of a partisan showdown on Monday in the U.S. Senate, with any wider influence on voters from the charge still unclear.

Congressional Republicans are trying to cut off Planned Parenthood’s federal funding.

The Senate plans to hold a procedural vote on Monday on a Republican proposal to cut off the funds. Democrats are expected to block it, extending the confrontation.

Planned Parenthood has hundreds of family planning and reproductive health centers nationwide. It gets up to $500 million per year in Medicaid contributions, and up to $60 million in federal funds for family planning services. U.S. law tightly restricts applying federal funds to abortions.

Millions of women, many young and single, rely on Planned Parenthood for healthcare beyond abortions and family planning, including breast and cervical cancer screenings.

The group contributed nearly $1.6 million to candidates in the 2014 elections who backed abortion rights, said the Center for Responsive Politics, a campaign finance watchdog.

Young, single women are a key demographic for Hillary Clinton, front-runner for the Democratic nomination.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/planned-parenthood-fight-hits-congress-and-the-wider-impact-is-unclear/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

Repug/Christian Taliban misogyny, in the name of Christ, on full display.

[boutons_deux]

Wing-nut conspiracy theorists have done it again: The truth about the Planned Parenthood hoax revealed

Probes into alleged for-profit organ harvesting have turned up exactly nothing. So why won't the right take a hint?

For many, especially on the right, no amount of fact-checking will ever be enough.

There is no evidence that PPLM is involved in any way in the buying or selling of tissue. As such, our review is complete.”

Gov. Mike Pence, R-Ind., launched an investigation of Planned Parenthood

“unable to find any non-compliance with state regulations. Therefore, no deficiencies were cited.”

small government conservatives — conservatives who routinely frown upon wasteful government spending — have successfully prompted frivolous investigations in 12 states (http://www.lifenews.com/2015/07/30/south-carolina-becomes-12th-state-to-investigate-planned-parenthood-for-selling-aborted-babies/), including deeply red ones, all based on obviously fraudulent videos.

Given how Planned Parenthood clearly isn’t doing what these videos claim, the GOP might as well launch investigations into Keyboard Cat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J---aiyznGQ) to determine whether it’s really playing that annoying song. That’s exactly how farcical this has become.

It’s much easier to lapse into a satisfying outrage coma over a stupid video than to accept the clear and incontrovertible reality that Planned Parenthood and similar organizations save lives and prevent abortions — millions more lives saved than abortions performed.

The Republican Party and the Tea Party conservatives who’ve commandeered it believe, and perhaps rightfully so, that its most active supporters are quite simply gullible knuckleheads who will gladly accept without question anything they’re told, while also categorically rejecting anything that doesn’t conform to the fantasies they’ve rubber-stamped.

http://www.salon.com/2015/08/03/wing_nut_conspiracy_theorists_have_done_it_again_t he_truth_about_the_planned_parenthood_hoax_reveale d/

FetusGHAZI !

BenGHAZI !

BirtherGHAZI !

GlobalCoolingGHAZI !

Repug governance! :lol

[boutons_deux]

Fox pundit calls for election day ‘violence’ because Planned Parenthood is worse than Nazis

Frequent Fox News pundit Erick Erickson suggested recently that conservatives may have to launch a Civil War to stop Planned Parenthood from performing abortions.“

We have passed the point where Nazi comparisons are inappropriate,” Eric wrote (http://www.redstate.com/2015/07/31/killing-them/) in a blog post on Friday.

“These are children. They entered into the world alive and were killed, chopped up, and sold bit by bit.”

“If Republicans are not willing to make this their hill to die on and even see the government shutdown to stop this, the Republican Party needs to be shut down,” the conservative blogger insisted. “

The Party of Lincoln that rose from the ashes of a whig Party that would not stand up to slavery must stand up to this evil.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/fox-pundit-calls-for-election-day-violence-because-planned-parenthood-is-worse-than-nazis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[boutons_deux]

GOP bill cites ‘seducing spirits and doctrines of devils’ in push to defund Planned Parenthood

http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evil-satan-devil-800x430.jpg

A Republican congressman has introduced legislation that cites two Bible verses as reasons the House of Representatives to should oppose same-sex marriage and block federal grants for Planned Parenthood.The symbolic resolution (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-114hres399ih/xml/BILLS-114hres399ih.xml), introduced by Rep. Walter Jones (NC) on July 29, calls on the House to “consider legislation to protect traditional marriage and prevent taxpayer funding of abortion.”

The resolution begins by stating that the United States is based on “Judeo-Christian principles” and notes that the “creator is explicitly mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.”

The resolution also says the Supreme Court “invalidated the wishes of States that prohibited same-sex marriage” in its historic Obergefell v. Hodges ruling in June. It goes on to accuse Planned Parenthood of killing “50,000,000 unborn children.”

Before demanding the House take up four bills related to abortion and LGBT rights, the resolution cites two Bible verses.

“Whereas in Jeremiah 1:5 the Bible reads ‘Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.'; and Whereas in 1 Timothy 4:1–5 the Bible reads ‘Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils':

Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the House of Representatives calls upon the Speaker to encourage committee chairs to schedule the following legislation for immediate committee consideration, then follow through with scheduling votes on the House floor if they are reported favorably by their respective committees.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/gop-bill-cites-seducing-spirits-and-doctrines-of-devils-in-push-to-defund-planned-parenthood/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

Christian Taliban supremacist, OBSESSED with the Old Testament craziness! :lol

[Kefka1]

When you give blood or sell plasma do you grieve?

Holy hell, this is a dumber take than the average boutons post. Congratulations.

[ddjeffries]

selling fetal issue at cost isn't illegal, no matter what the attitude and tone of the buyers and sellers are. Attitude and tone aren't illegal.

btw, apparently fetal tissue research, as useful as it has been FOR DECADES, is declining.

As always, the fetal tissue sting, just like Christ would do, is only to fabricate outrage over a non-problem.

Killing PP would hurt Ms women, even kill some, but that's ok. "death paneling" adults is ok, esp when they're are poor non-whites.

anti-abortion is pro-birth, not pro-child.

That's where you are wrong. SELLING it at cost is illegal. RECOVERING costs for the services is legal. That's why PP has stated multiple times in the videos that they have to word it correctly so they don't come across as selling it. CMP is alleging that (and PP was caught admitting that) the price point is constantly changing. PP was recorded stating that they "don't want to lowball" on the price for the specimen, meaning they probably aren't in it just to recover the costs of the services.

[boutons_deux]

That's where you are wrong. SELLING it at cost is illegal. RECOVERING costs for the services is legal. That's why PP has stated multiple times in the videos that they have to word it correctly so they don't come across as selling it. CMP is alleging that (and PP was caught admitting that) the price point is constantly changing. PP was recorded stating that they "don't want to lowball" on the price for the specimen, meaning they probably aren't in it just to recover the costs of the services.

"selling at cost" vs "recovering costs" :lol that's where you are full of shit

[boutons_deux]

Bobby Jindal Cuts Off Medicaid Funding to Planned Parenthoods In Louisiana

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) announced he had ended the state's Medicaid contract with Planned Parenthood in response to an anti-abortion "sting" video campaign against the reproductive health service.

The move comes despite the fact that the two Planned Parenthood clinics in Louisiana do not provide abortion, which Planned Parenthood confirmed to the state's Department of Health and Hospitals as part of the state's ongoing investigation into claims that the organization is profiting off of aborted fetal tissue donations. A third clinic being built in New Orleans plans to offer abortion, but will not participate in the tissue donation programs, a Planned Parenthood executive told the state. (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/Planned%20Parenthood%20Center%20for%20Choi)

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jindal-louisiana-planned-parenthood-medicaid?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29



Planned Parenthood Clinic Construction Site Vandalized in New Orleans


http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2015/08/03/planned-parenthood-clinic-construction-site-vandalized-new-orleans/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rhrealitycheck+%28RH+Reality+ Check%29

[ddjeffries]

"selling at cost" vs "recovering costs" :lol that's where you are full of shit
Nope. As stated by the law, anything that would state "selling" fetal remains would be illegal. If you were right, PP wouldn't be bending over backwards trying to skirt the law. PP went into depth about how they do it in the 4th video.

[boutons_deux]

Nope. As stated by the law, anything that would state "selling" fetal remains would be illegal. If you were right, PP wouldn't be bending over backwards trying to skirt the law. PP went into depth about how they do it in the 4th video.

you're fucking around with semantics.

[ddjeffries]

you're fucking around with semantics.
Nah man just repeating what PP has stated in the undercover videos.

[boutons_deux]

Nah man just repeating what PP has stated in the undercover videos.

... none of which is illegal. you're suckered by a standard rightwingnut fabricated scandal.

btw, defunding PP got bitch slapped in the Senate today.

[ddjeffries]

... none of which is illegal. you're suckered by a standard rightwingnut fabricated scandal.

btw, defunding PP got bitch slapped in the Senate today.

Do I need to quote the law again for you? I left you a link a couple days ago and you knowingly ignored it. SELLING fetal tissue remains is illegal. Not a difficult concept. I am not saying PP is guilting. I am saying that the 4 videos released is more then enough for a federal investigation.

And yes we knew it wouldn't pass the Repubs don't hold a full majority. Nor would it get by Obama either.

[spurraider21]

:lmao jesus i just saw this. if this is gna be the GOP campaign wagon, its going to be a train wreck

http://i.gyazo.com/8210ef76bcd9259bf0eada9dae76719c.png

[Nbadan]

Wing-nut conspiracy theorists have done it again: The truth about the Planned Parenthood hoax revealed
Probes into alleged for-profit organ harvesting have turned up exactly nothing. So why won't the right take a hint?
BOB CESCA

I
f you’ve been keeping score at home, you’ll have noticed that not one but two states, including a red state with a paleoconservative governor, have in the past several days exonerated Planned Parenthood of any wrongdoing in the so-called secret-video sting that has conservatives calling on Congress to defund the non-profit organization. The appropriate response to this news is, “Of course! Because Planned Parenthood is absolutely not selling fetus parts via some sort of grisly underground marketplace.” For many, especially on the right, no amount of fact-checking will never be enough. But for the sake of the public record, let’s review those exonerating reports again here.

Last week, Massachusetts’ Attorney General Maura Healey became the latest in what’s sure to be a long list of state attorneys general to conclude the same thing. Specifically, Healy concluded,

“Over the past week, my office has conducted a thorough review and found that Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts’ health care centers are fully compliant with state and federal laws regarding the disposition of fetal tissue. Although donation of fetal tissue is permissible under state and federal law, PPLM does not have a tissue donation program. There is no evidence that PPLM is involved in any way in the buying or selling of tissue. As such, our review is complete.”



Sure, Massachusetts is a leftward-leaning state, but Indiana is very much not. Back on July 16, Gov. Mike Pence, R-Ind., launched an investigation of Planned Parenthood following the release of what was obviously a doctored and misleading video. The probe focused on facilities in Indianapolis, Bloomington and Merrillville, and this past week the Indiana Department of Health reported it was “unable to find any non-compliance with state regulations. Therefore, no deficiencies were cited.”

Because of course.

more
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/03/wing_nut_conspiracy_theorists_have_done_it_again_t he_truth_about_the_planned_parenthood_hoax_reveale d/

[boutons_deux]

Do I need to quote the law again for you? I left you a link a couple days ago and you knowingly ignored it. SELLING fetal tissue remains is illegal.

semantics, look it up.

[Blake]

:lmao jesus i just saw this. if this is gna be the GOP campaign wagon, its going to be a train wreck

http://i.gyazo.com/8210ef76bcd9259bf0eada9dae76719c.png

:lol that's awesome

[DarrinS]

:lol that's awesome

it's true tho

[CosmicCowboy]

Semantics.

HEB doesn't sell groceries. They just recover their "cost" to get the groceries in my cart.

[ddjeffries]

5th video released today. Although they aren't calling it the 5th.

http://youtu.be/egGUEvY7CEg

continues to show PP discussing and agreeing that these procedures are a revenue source not just to cover costs.

[Spurminator]

it's true tho

Except for the whole choice thing.

[Blake]

it's true tho

Oh well then if we allow planned parenthood to continue we should allow slavery!

[DarrinS]

Oh well then if we allow planned parenthood to continue we should allow slavery!

it's made of straw

[boutons_deux]

any of you rightwingnuts have any facts? like actual PP accounting numbers, invoices, receipts, etc for fetal tissue sales?

[Blake]

it's made of straw

That's why it's awesome

[DarrinS]

That's why it's awesome

If we allow planned parenthood to continue we should allow slavery!

[Blake]

If we allow planned parenthood to continue we should allow slavery!

It's Palin's support of the confederate flag, not mine.

I didn't really think blue font was necessary

[ddjeffries]

any of you rightwingnuts have any facts? like actual PP accounting numbers, invoices, receipts, etc for fetal tissue sales?

nope and won't get them without an investigation. And try to stay level headed and respectful.

[Spurminator]

"Why aren't black people as offended by the symbol of an institution that has assisted thousands of them if they ask for affordable contraception or abortions, as they are by a flag that is flown to honor the side of a war fighting to continue their enslavement?"

Makes perfect sense. Good question, Sarah Palin.

[boutons_deux]

nope and won't get them without an investigation. And try to stay level headed and respectful.

GFY

[ddjeffries]

GFY

Solid rebuttal.

[Blake]

"Why aren't black people as offended by the symbol of an institution that has assisted thousands of them if they ask for affordable contraception or abortions, as they are by a flag that is flown to honor the side of a war fighting to continue their enslavement?"

Makes perfect sense. Good question, Sarah Palin.

".... Palin also mentioned part of her hopes for the upcoming 2016 presidential election: “And you know something else? I was born in Idaho, so I’m not a Southern girl by birth, but I support and believe in traditional southern values with all of my heart. In fact, I hope we finally get to put the Confederate flag on the White House next year. Not only would that be a radical and positive turn in American politics, but it would also say “in your face” to those who are looking to make true Americans forget who they are.”...

http://www.newslo.com/confederate-flag/

It is literally terrifying how many crazy nuts come this close to being the leader of the free world....let alone actually get elected governor

[mingus]

Sarah Palin is a dumb ****.

[Spurminator]

".... Palin also mentioned part of her hopes for the upcoming 2016 presidential election: “And you know something else? I was born in Idaho, so I’m not a Southern girl by birth, but I support and believe in traditional southern values with all of my heart. In fact, I hope we finally get to put the Confederate flag on the White House next year. Not only would that be a radical and positive turn in American politics, but it would also say “in your face” to those who are looking to make true Americans forget who they are.”...

http://www.newslo.com/confederate-flag/

It is literally terrifying how many crazy nuts come this close to being the leader of the free world....let alone actually get elected governor

That's satire, thank God.

[Blake]

That's satire, thank God.

Aw. I thought it sounded a bit out there for Palin.

But it's Palin so I fell for it...

[DarrinS]

Aw. I thought it sounded a bit out there for Palin.

But it's Palin so I fell for it...


Nah, you Googled and premature ejac'ed because you thought you found some boutons fools gold.

[ChumpDumper]

Semantics.

HEB doesn't sell groceries. They just recover their "cost" to get the groceries in my cart.HEB is a for profit business.

[SupremeGuy]

HEB is a for profit business.Apparently so is planned parenthood, tbh. :lol

[Blake]

Nah, you Googled and premature ejac'ed because you thought you found some boutons fools gold.

right, I fell for it.

I should have known but again, it's Palin so..

[ChumpDumper]

Apparently so is planned parenthood, tbh. :lolNo.

[Splits]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u8Ek7Ow5Zw4/VcEHWNEDfiI/AAAAAAAAao8/YBoT54PoHcw/s1600/Screenshot%2B2015-08-04%2Bat%2B11.40.29%2BAM.png

[spurraider21]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u8Ek7Ow5Zw4/VcEHWNEDfiI/AAAAAAAAao8/YBoT54PoHcw/s1600/Screenshot%2B2015-08-04%2Bat%2B11.40.29%2BAM.png
the chicken and tree examples aren't fertilized. the dress one makes no sense. an egg is more like a period

[DarrinS]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u8Ek7Ow5Zw4/VcEHWNEDfiI/AAAAAAAAao8/YBoT54PoHcw/s1600/Screenshot%2B2015-08-04%2Bat%2B11.40.29%2BAM.png


Gawt damn this is retarded

[ddjeffries]

The saddest part IMO about the 5th video, is the talk that one of the specimens they are sifting through is a twin and the only one. meaning the mother had a "selective reduction" killing only one of the children. Sick to think that living child will never know it was a twin.

[ddjeffries]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u8Ek7Ow5Zw4/VcEHWNEDfiI/AAAAAAAAao8/YBoT54PoHcw/s1600/Screenshot%2B2015-08-04%2Bat%2B11.40.29%2BAM.png

I don't think you know how fertilization works. This makes no sense whatsoever. But you are correct, that image of the egg and sperm isn't a person yet.... once they join...

[ddjeffries]

bd7QtP4DlLs

Another interesting video on the matter.

[boutons_deux]

once they join...

... they become a zygote, months away from a person.

and what about all the zygotes that fertility clinics dispose of? that's abortion of a person, right?

[ddjeffries]

There is only life and death. A zygote is alive meaning it is growing and developing. Just as an infant is not yet a child and a child is not yet an adult, humans go through various developmental stages in their lives hitting milestones along the way. So yes I consider that to be a human (a zygote has human DNA) and to abort a zygote is to abort a life.

[boutons_deux]

There is only life and death. A zygote is alive meaning it is growing and developing. Just as an infant is not yet a child and a child is not yet an adult, humans go through various developmental stages in their lives hitting milestones along the way. So yes I consider that to be a human (a zygote has human DNA) and to abort a zygote is to abort a life.

So you want abortion 100% illegal. What do YOU do with all the unwanted babies? you assholes are pro-birth, not pro-life-after-birth

[ddjeffries]

So you want abortion 100% illegal. What do YOU do with all the unwanted babies? you assholes are pro-birth, not pro-life-after-birth

Kinda hard to call something that has human DNA not a human.

I value life over a woman's choice. Don't get pregnant, adoption, etc. ~97% of abortions are for casual reasons not tied to rape or health.

[boutons_deux]

"Kinda hard to call something that has human DNA not a human."

so an amputated finger, leg, ear is a human. Typical bullshit.

"Don't get pregnant"

yeah, great advice that's got a rock-solid, proven track record.

So why do you anti-choicers also want to block women from getting contraception which leads to lower unwanted pregnancies and abortions?

CO had program than reduced abortion by 40%, but now the private funds have run out, and CO Repugs refuse to fund it, so Repugs, CO, TX, etc, will cause abortions to INCREASE dramatically by blocking contraception.

You Holy Roller Bible humption People, Repugs, etc really don't want women fucking for fun, want to control women's' vaginas, sex lives.

[spurraider21]

... they become a zygote, months away from a person.

and what about all the zygotes that fertility clinics dispose of? that's abortion of a person, right?
fwiw, i'm completely pro abortion and i still recognize the difference between fertilized and unfertilized sex cells. the zygote has its own unique DNA. sex cells share the same DNA (well, they carry half the DNA) of its parent. the egg is all mama and the sperm is all daddy. the zygote is unique... its the child.

[Shastafarian]

Kinda hard to call something that has human DNA not a human.Each and every living cell in our body has DNA in it. Does that mean you think all cells have the right to life? You can't take that diseased liver out of me because the living cells are people too!


I value life over a woman's choice.Says a man, clearly. Luckily we established your determination of "life" is silly.

Don't get pregnant, adoption, etc. ~97% of abortions are for casual reasons not tied to rape or health.Link to stats showing 97% of abortions are for "casual" reasons?

[boutons_deux]

"casual" :lol

pro-birth slandering of women. Women don't get abortions "casually", just like people on welfare aren't driving Cadillacs.

[CosmicCowboy]

Just so we are clear, this is what a second trimester fetus looks like.

http://clinicquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/g24.jpg

[spurraider21]

Each and every living cell in our body has DNA in it. Does that mean you think all cells have the right to life? You can't take that diseased liver out of me because the living cells are people too!
well, we are multicellular organisms, so that just makes no sense. sure, the zygote is just one cell, but its merely the first cell of that life. plus, i'm willing to bet nobody has ever surgically aborted just a single cell, so thats irrelevant

[CosmicCowboy]

I am pro abortion but lets call this shit what it is. That's killing a baby.

That one is probably worth some good money too. They obviously used a "less crunchy" method.

[Spurminator]

The beginning of life argument is not a winning argument for choice advocates. Ultimately, it's a subjective and emotional topic. The argument should always focus on a woman's dominion over her body.

[DisAsTerBot]

the chicken and tree examples aren't fertilized. the dress one makes no sense. an egg is more like a period

to be fair, that chicken egg could very well be fertilized. A tiny white spec in the yolk is all that's visible in the early stages of fertilization

[spurraider21]

to be fair, that chicken egg could very well be fertilized. A tiny white spec in the yolk is all that's visible in the early stages of fertilization
eggs sold to markets are refrigerated, so the egg would be sterilized very early on. sorta like plan b :lol

[RandomGuy]

There is only life and death. A zygote is alive meaning it is growing and developing. Just as an infant is not yet a child and a child is not yet an adult, humans go through various developmental stages in their lives hitting milestones along the way. So yes I consider that to be a human (a zygote has human DNA) and to abort a zygote is to abort a life.

If that is the case, then be prepared to fight a war on miscarriages.

http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/f/70percent.htm

Somewhere between 10 and 70%, depending on how one defines terms, of all fertilizations don't succeed in producing a viable fetus.

[RandomGuy]

I am pro abortion but lets call this shit what it is. That's killing a baby.

That one is probably worth some good money too. They obviously used a "less crunchy" method.

I would not call it "killing a baby". If you have a part of a woman's body incapable of living outside her body at all, that is not a baby, any more than a spleen is a person.

I am with the supreme court on this. viability is about the only evidence-based definition that is logically possible.

Would you call denying an abortion to a women a "forced pregnancy"?

[ddjeffries]

If that is the case, then be prepared to fight a war on miscarriages.

http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/f/70percent.htm

Somewhere between 10 and 70%, depending on how one defines terms, of all fertilizations don't succeed in producing a viable fetus.

You don't choose to have a miscarriage. That's why it's so tragic, I know from experience.

[ddjeffries]

I would not call it "killing a baby". If you have a part of a woman's body incapable of living outside her body at all, that is not a baby, any more than a spleen is a person.

I am with the supreme court on this. viability is about the only evidence-based definition that is logically possible.

Would you call denying an abortion to a women a "forced pregnancy"?

Thing is, abortion is legal up to 24 weeks. And premature babies born before 24 weeks survive all the time, so that argument is bad because a medical definition of a baby is once birth happens.

Also, a spleen isn't a developing human just as sperm and an egg aren't. Once they join to form a zygote with human DNA, development and growth starts meaning life as begun.

[boutons_deux]

"babies born before 24 weeks survive all the time,"

and lot of them, completely unviable beings, and not having completed nervous, cardiovascular, pulmonary systems, etc have life long health problems.

Wonderful that the docs and hospitals can save them, but they do pocket $1M+ for their effort.

[Spurminator]

Thing is, abortion is legal up to 24 weeks. And premature babies born before 24 weeks survive all the time, so that argument is bad because a medical definition of a baby is once birth happens.

Define "all the time." Babies born at 24 weeks survive about 50% of the time, and it gets exponentially worse as you work backwards. As I understand it, most doctors won't even provide intensive care for births at 23 weeks or earlier because it's such a long shot that they will survive.

[Blake]

Thing is, abortion is legal up to 24 weeks. And premature babies born before 24 weeks survive all the time, so that argument is bad because a medical definition of a baby is once birth happens.

Also, a spleen isn't a developing human just as sperm and an egg aren't. Once they join to form a zygote with human DNA, development and growth starts meaning life as begun.

So if a girl gets pregnant from rape, you think it's murder if she immediately gets an abortion? Just askin

[ddjeffries]

So if a girl gets pregnant from rape, you think it's murder if she immediately gets an abortion? Just askin

Yes I do, but that's an extremely sensitive situation. Even though it would be too much to handle for most women to go through with that, it still isn't the child's fault. Terrible thing to happen, makes me sad for anyone who goes through that.

[ddjeffries]

Define "all the time." Babies born at 24 weeks survive about 50% of the time, and it gets exponentially worse as you work backwards. As I understand it, most doctors won't even provide intensive care for births at 23 weeks or earlier because it's such a long shot that they will survive.

i need to define all the time? You're the one that said a baby is incapable of living outside of a woman's body. I simply stated that it happens all the time. Including my nieces.

[ChumpDumper]

sensitive murder

[Spurminator]

i need to define all the time? You're the one that said a baby is incapable of living outside of a woman's body. I simply stated that it happens all the time. Including my nieces.

That's awesome for your family but you are extraordinarily lucky. In the vast majority of other incidents, births before 24 weeks do not survive. That's why 24 weeks is defined as the cut-off, and why it's a rational limit for abortion.

[Blake]

Yes I do, but that's an extremely sensitive situation. Even though it would be too much to handle for most women to go through with that, it still isn't the child's fault. Terrible thing to happen, makes me sad for anyone who goes through that.

So do you think the woman should be allowed to murder her baby if raped?

[ddjeffries]

That's awesome for your family but you are extraordinarily lucky. In the vast majority of other incidents, births before 24 weeks do not survive. That's why 24 weeks is defined as the cut-off, and why it's a rational limit for abortion.

Then don't say, "if you have a part of a woman's body incapable of living outside her body at all, that is not a baby."

[ddjeffries]

So do you think the woman should be allowed to murder her baby if raped?

Boy that's tough. I'd say no, but I completely understand why it would be ok in the laws eyes.

[Spurminator]

Then don't say, "if you have a part of a woman's body incapable of living outside her body at all, that is not a baby."

I didn't. I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I'm the one who said it doesn't matter what you call it, basically.

[ddjeffries]

I didn't. I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I'm the one who said it doesn't matter what you call it, basically.

You are correct. My bad.

[RandomGuy]

Thing is, abortion is legal up to 24 weeks. And premature babies born before 24 weeks survive all the time, so that argument is bad because a medical definition of a baby is once birth happens.

Also, a spleen isn't a developing human just as sperm and an egg aren't. Once they join to form a zygote with human DNA, development and growth starts meaning life as begun.

(nods)

All fairly true. I would not, though charactorize premies born before 24 weeks as surviving "all the time". If you have some article or data to support that, I might buy it, but that is not my understanding.

Feel free to answer the question posed to CosmicCowboy as well.

This is a fairly complex issue, and sorting through it involved confronting a lot of uncomfortable things that we generally don't like to think about. Are you comfortable with forcing women to be pregnant against their wishes?

Do we then also investigate women who have miscarriages as criminals?
http://www.latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

[RandomGuy]

You don't choose to have a miscarriage. That's why it's so tragic, I know from experience.

That is the thing though. If the logic in attempting to ban abortions is "it is a baby, and a tragedy", then why do we not invest as much effort into stopping miscarriages?

To advocate one, but not the other, seems inconsistent to me.

[spurraider21]

Boy that's tough. I'd say no, but I completely understand why it would be ok in the laws eyes.
so you completely understand why the law would allow baby murder just because of inconvenience on the mother? wow

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That is the thing though. If the logic in attempting to ban abortions is "it is a baby, and a tragedy", then why do we not invest as much effort into stopping miscarriages?

To advocate one, but not the other, seems inconsistent to me.

Cause you cannot actually hold yourself morally superior to a woman who has a miscarriage and not look like a complete asshole.

I still think it's funny the GOP response is to propose the same shit that didn't work last time and burnt them pretty badly. Tells me they aren't serious. Same shit different decade.

[RandomGuy]

Just so we are clear, this is what a second trimester fetus looks like.

[image redacted, click on quote link to see picture, if you wish]

An uncomfortable reality. Mostly human formed that late, yes.

Viable as an self-sustaining organism, no.

I do understand that the pictures can be upsetting. I am as empathetic as the next person, and they disturb me too.

But, one must consider that the choice is not ours to make. Personally, I would prefer no abortions happen, but they will, even if illegal. Our country does such a poor job, though, in supporting young poor women, and caring for poor children, I am not sure forcing women to come to term is really in our best interest.

If we demonized people without money a bit less, and provided care for the results of unwanted pregnancies, I would be a lot more comfortable with such a policy.

As it is, we value money more than people or children in our country, and taxes for such things are considered almost as evil. That also seems wildly inconsistent to me, that many of the same people who want to make abortion illegal are the ones who scream bloody murder when you ask them to help the children once they are born by paying for wealth transfer programs.

[Blake]

.

[RandomGuy]

Cause you cannot actually hold yourself morally superior to a woman who has a miscarriage and not look like a complete asshole.

I still think it's funny the GOP response is to propose the same shit that didn't work last time and burnt them pretty badly. Tells me they aren't serious. Same shit different decade.

It is another case of the GOP shooting themselves in the foot. Planned parenthood, although an abortion provider, does a lot in terms of womens health.

Get rid of that thing, fine, but then you have to step into the vast gap in women's health services left.

Jeb found that out real quick and backpedaled from the stupid shit he said.


I'm not sure we need half a billion dollars for women's health issues.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33783147

That is what basing your policy decisions and positions on ignorance of the facts and data look like.

[RandomGuy]

i need to define all the time? You're the one that said a baby is incapable of living outside of a woman's body. I simply stated that it happens all the time. Including my nieces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. The survivors may be actual people, as in a medical study, or could be companies or research subjects or applicants for a job, or anything that must make it past some selection process to be considered further.

Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignored, such as when companies that no longer exist are excluded from analyses of financial performance. It can also lead to the false belief that the successes in a group have some special property, rather than just coincidence. For example, if three of the five students with the best college grades went to the same high school, that can lead one to believe that the high school must offer an excellent education. This could be true, but the question cannot be answered without looking at the grades of all the other students from that high school, not just the ones who "survived" the top-five selection process.

[CosmicCowboy]

An uncomfortable reality. Mostly human formed that late, yes.

Viable as an self-sustaining organism, no.

I do understand that the pictures can be upsetting. I am as empathetic as the next person, and they disturb me too.

But, one must consider that the choice is not ours to make. Personally, I would prefer no abortions happen, but they will, even if illegal. Our country does such a poor job, though, in supporting young poor women, and caring for poor children, I am not sure forcing women to come to term is really in our best interest.

If we demonized people without money a bit less, and provided care for the results of unwanted pregnancies, I would be a lot more comfortable with such a policy.

As it is, we value money more than people or children in our country, and taxes for such things are considered almost as evil. That also seems wildly inconsistent to me, that many of the same people who want to make abortion illegal are the ones who scream bloody murder when you ask them to help the children once they are born by paying for wealth transfer programs.

Like I said, I am pro choice. Just don't sugar coat it and lets call it what it is. It is medically killing off a viable life if left unmolested.

As for wealth transfer programs to reward keeping babies the whole system sucks. I see teenagers near my office going to high school with a toddler, one in a stroller, and one in the belly all the time. I'm near an SAISD day care. The extra few hundred per child per month may not seem like much to us but it is viewed as a legitimate income by these young girls that get a "raise" every year as they pop another one out. It is a self perpetuating underclass lifestyle for generation after generation.

[Splits]

We first acquired the stem cells from the red receptacles of a local hospital’s labor and delivery ward, delivered to our lab at the University of Southern California. I would reach into the large medical waste containers and pull out the tree-like branches of the placenta, discarded after a baby had been born. Squeezing the umbilical cord that had so recently been attached to new life, the blood, laden with stem cells, would come dripping out.

But sometimes a different package would arrive at our lab. Despite my distaste for wringing placentas, I felt more squeamish about what lay inside the unassuming white box. Packed in the ice was a crescent-shaped sliver of dark red tissue: a human liver. Just like the placentas that were discarded after birth, this tissue was originally destined for medical waste following an abortion.


Although their fates were similar, their origins couldn’t be more different. One source was the byproduct of celebration, the other a procedure often marked with stigma and shame. While under the bright focus of the microscope the cells we isolated were indistinguishable, in our minds there was a significant difference.


Stem cell science is a big deal in California, thanks to the Institute for Regenerative Medicine, a state agency that has allocated almost $2 billion in research grants since 2004 (federal funding is still highly restricted). To meet the demand for cells, researchers turned to a procedure protected by federal law: abortions. The discarded tissue from terminated pregnancies, performed up to 26 weeks in California, is a rich source of stem cells.


But only certain fetal cells are useful. While embryonic stem cells, derived from fertilized eggs, can give rise to any cell that makes up the body, as fetal cells develop from the embryo they become committed to specific cell lineages. The liver and thymus, for instance, are packed with the precursor cells to the immune system, while the brain contains neural cells that form the nervous system.


To meet the need for these precursor cells, biotech companies form an essential middleman between tissue donated from abortion clinics and the research labs that need it. They ensure that informed consent is obtained, harvest the organs, in some cases isolate and purify the cells and then ship them out to laboratories. There are profits to be made by such middlemen in what critics call the abortion industry. A fetus runs upward of $850, not including testing, cleaning or shipping charges, while a vial packed with pure stem cells can fetch more than $20,000.


The use of fetal tissue in research is not new. Fetal cells extracted from the lungs of two aborted fetuses from Europe in the 1960s are still being propagated in cell culture. They’re so successful that today we still use them to produce vaccines for hepatitis A, rubella, chickenpox and shingles. From two terminated pregnancies, countless lives have been spared.


It isn’t just vaccines. Scientists at the University of California, San Diego, have injected neural stem cells into two patients to treat their spinal cord injuries. And progress is being made in the use of stem-cell therapies against cancer, blindness, Alzheimer’s, heart disease, H.I.V. and diabetes.


As impressive as this is, for critics the lives saved cannot make up for those that have been lost. And as important as I believe my research was, I sympathize with that sense of loss, even after leaving the lab for Boston.


Every week when the plain white FedEx box was delivered, uneasiness permeated the lab. We all knew that the tissues contained within were precious. We planned our experiments meticulously, trying not to waste a single drop. We rationalized using the cells by telling one another that the abortions would happen regardless of whether we used the tissue for research. And we knew that if we didn’t use the tissue it was bound for the trash.


Perhaps this is why it was difficult to hear Dr. Deborah Nucatola, Planned Parenthood’s senior director of medical services, discuss the organs of aborted fetuses so casually in surreptitiously recorded conversations with anti-abortion activists posing as fetal-tissue buyers. It’s understandable that politicians, angered by her callous tone, are investigating how fetal tissue is handled and how research is conducted, despite the strict institutional review that governs the use of anatomical tissue donated for research.


Politicians aren’t the only ones looking for answers. Scientists are searching for alternatives to fetal cells. One solution may lie in reprogramming adult cells, creating what researchers call induced pluripotent stem cells. These cells share the ancestral adaptability of embryonic stem cells, yet can also be manipulated to look and act like fetal stem cells.


And yet, every time I worked with a fetal liver, I imagined that somewhere in California a woman had made the agonizing, heartbreaking decision to end her pregnancy. Yet she had also donated her aborted fetus to medical research. I thought of this as I isolated the golden-tinged cells inside the vent hood. A promise had been made; these cells were not simply trash.


The choice I made is repeated every day, in labs all over the world. Researchers have no say in whether a fetus is aborted or develops into a human baby; those decisions are made by women and shaped by politicians. Yet their science, performed on discarded tissue, has the ability to save lives. It already has.

[RandomGuy]

Like I said, I am pro choice. Just don't sugar coat it and lets call it what it is. It is medically killing off a viable life if left unmolested.

As for wealth transfer programs to reward keeping babies the whole system sucks. I see teenagers near my office going to high school with a toddler, one in a stroller, and one in the belly all the time. I'm near an SAISD day care. The extra few hundred per child per month may not seem like much to us but it is viewed as a legitimate income by these young girls that get a "raise" every year as they pop another one out. It is a self perpetuating underclass lifestyle for generation after generation.

About the first, I think we both agree.

As for the second, my wife teaches high school, and has some first hand knowledge of young girls having babies. They don't do it for an income, and the most identifiable reason she has been able to discern is that they are shockingly ignorant of what causes pregnancies. She is in a position to know this as the biology teacher, who gets asked some very basic questions from time to time.

If you have any actual evidence that the motivation of these girls in having children is to get more welfare, please present that. I would accept any valid study from a peer-reviewed journal.

If you can't present that evidence, why not? If it doesn't exist, are you comfortable basing important public policy on a potentially mistaken model of reality?

[CosmicCowboy]

About the first, I think we both agree.

As for the second, my wife teaches high school, and has some first hand knowledge of young girls having babies. They don't do it for an income, and the most identifiable reason she has been able to discern is that they are shockingly ignorant of what causes pregnancies. She is in a position to know this as the biology teacher, who gets asked some very basic questions from time to time.

If you have any actual evidence that the motivation of these girls in having children is to get more welfare, please present that. I would accept any valid study from a peer-reviewed journal.

If you can't present that evidence, why not? If it doesn't exist, are you comfortable basing important public policy on a potentially mistaken model of reality?

If education was really the problem you would think after the first one they would figure out where babies come from.

[Spurminator]

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/05/429641062/fact-check-how-does-planned-parenthood-spend-that-government-money?sc=17&f=1001&utm_source=iosnewsapp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=app

Sorry, I know NPR doesn't have the same journalistic credibility as the Center for Medical Progress, but still an educational read.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/05/429641062/fact-check-how-does-planned-parenthood-spend-that-government-money?sc=17&f=1001&utm_source=iosnewsapp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=app

Sorry, I know NPR doesn't have the same journalistic credibility as the Center for Medical Progress, but still an educational read.

.. shows why defunding PP would hurt Ms of poor women, as the Repugs/Bible humpers will keep attempting.

[RandomGuy]

If education was really the problem you would think after the first one they would figure out where babies come from.

One might think that, but that is not quite always the case, according to my wife.

[Blake]

If education was really the problem you would think after the first one they would figure out where babies come from.

Is there really an epidemic around you of high school teenagers with more than one kid?

[CosmicCowboy]

Is there really an epidemic around you of high school teenagers with more than one kid?

You live under a rock? Almost 40% of births in Bexar County are to unwed mothers and many of them are multiples. I see teenagers with litters at the Valero around the corner from my office downtown every time I go in there.

[Winehole23]

^^^compares unwed mothers to dogs.

stay classy, CC

[ChumpDumper]

You live under a rock? Almost 40% of births in Bexar County are to unwed mothers and many of them are multiples. I see teenagers with litters at the Valero around the corner from my office downtown every time I go in there.It's 36%, which is about the same as Texas and the US.