Has The League Caught Up To The Spurs?

[TD 21]

Back when the third act of the Duncan era got started, in '12, the Spurs' motion offense was unique. Sure, they had unparalleled and underrated depth of talent, but they were also far and away the most intelligent and committed team in the league, essentially rendering their physical disadvantage against virtually the entire league moot. As a result, they ran roughshod over it for three years, with only the Heat and Thunder truly able to hang with them.

Culminating with the dismantling of the Heat in the '14 Finals, naturally the league began to copy them. Starting last season and continuing on to this one, a lot of teams run at least a semblance of their offense.

With the ascendance of Leonard and the decline of Parker/Ginobili, we saw a shift in their offense last season and it's continued this season with the addition of Aldridge. Now, they're somewhere in between what the majority of the league was (and in some cases, still is) and their former selves.

This shift was both logical and necessary, for obvious reasons, but has it gone too far? As talented as this team is, they'll still lose to the other elite teams in a series, if that's what it comes down to.

[Spurtacular]

I think a big part of the problem is the digression of many teams. The Dubs, etc. have are playing too many cake teams. An older teams like the Spurs has less margin for error.

[tonight...you]

Back when the third act of the Duncan era got started, in '12, the Spurs' motion offense was unique. Sure, they had unparalleled and underrated depth of talent, but they were also far and away the most intelligent and committed team in the league, essentially rendering their physical disadvantage against virtually the entire league moot. As a result, they ran roughshod over it for three years, with only the Heat and Thunder truly able to hang with them.

Culminating with the dismantling of the Heat in the '14 Finals, naturally the league began to copy them. Starting last season and continuing on to this one, a lot of teams run at least a semblance of their offense.

With the ascendance of Leonard and the decline of Parker/Ginobili, we saw a shift in their offense last season and it's continued this season with the addition of Aldridge. Now, they're somewhere in between what the majority of the league was (and in some cases, still is) and their former selves.

This shift was both logical and necessary, for obvious reasons, but has it gone too far? As talented as this team is, they'll still lose to the other elite teams in a series, if that's what it comes down to.

This discussion should really be started around the end of March, when we and the team itself kind of knows what it is and what they're fully capable of.
Right now is nowhere near representative of what they'll be by April.

[TD 21]

This discussion should really be started around the end of March, when we and the team itself kind of knows what it is and what they're fully capable of.
Right now is nowhere near representative of what they'll be by April.

I knew this cliche response was coming, but as I alluded to, this started last season.

Even when they took off, in the final 25 or so games, they never looked like they did the previous 3 seasons, when they were firing on all cylinders. That run was mostly sparked by Leonard playing MVP caliber on both ends.

In order to win a championship, the final product of this team has to be a combination of the team from '12-'14 and what a more traditional championship team looks like because they're not out starring or iso balling the elite teams in a series.

[TXstbobcat]

Nah. Pop still playing chess while the rest of the is playing checkers.

[tonight...you]

I knew this cliche response was coming, but as I alluded to, this started last season.

Even when they took off, in the final 25 or so games, they never looked like they did the previous 3 seasons, when they were firing on all cylinders. That run was mostly sparked by Leonard playing MVP caliber on both ends.

In order to win a championship, the final product of this team has to be a combination of the team from '12-'14 and what a more traditional championship team looks like because they're not out starring or iso balling the elite teams in a series.
So you're looking for this team to run their sophisticated offense and look like they can challenge the elite teams, with a new centerpiece that's never played with them before and other new faces by... Game 4?
You want to go ahead and start that discussion now?

Okay. I'll remain cliched for now then.

[Obstructed_View]

Even when they took off, in the final 25 or so games, they never looked like they did the previous 3 seasons, when they were firing on all cylinders.

Um, I guess you watched a different final 25 games than the rest of the world did.

[SAGirl]

It's too early at this point. I was not a fan of the Kawhiso offense, but they went away from it being so mechanical and forced like it was at the beginning towards the end of last season, and this season it is a lot more organic. Kawhi is now scoring in a whole bunch of ways, coming off screens, transition, spotted up and assisted from teammates, off the dribble, and yes, there are post ups, but many of them when he grabs position freely, not a forced thing, or he finds matches or gaps. Its a whole lot more organic what he's doing right now, than what he was doing to start last season. LMA is not fully integrated either. He's looking as forced right now as Kawhi to start last season.

It's just a whole lot of adjustment. Its too early to say how it will look in March. Pop is always motivating them to move the ball and play with each other. We haven't seen it much yet, outside of some sequences here o there, but that doesn't mean they won't catch a groove later.

[ChumpDumper]

Spurs' best penetration options are going away. Initial space is going to come more from forcing opposing teams to help on Kawhi or Aldridge kind of the way they did with Duncan way back when. Prime Parker and Manu made collapsing a defense child's play; it's going to take a little more work now but it's far from impossible.

[TheGreatYacht]

Spurs got it all. Post ups with LMA, Kawhi, Tim, Diaw, West, Anderson, Boban. Shooters with Green, Kawhi, Manu, Mills, Parker, Butler, Bonner. Drivers with Parker, Manu, Mills, McCallum, Simmons. All that plus a Top 5 defense. Like a poster above me said, Pop playing chess while the rest playing checkers.

If this team can stay healthy by the playoffs... NBA = cucked :lol

[ElNono]

I think it's an natural evolution and part of a never-ending cycle of teams trying to figure out what works best with the rules du jour... League went from physicality, to big man domination, to perimeter hegemony, to strong ball movement now... and it's all influenced by rule changes... hand check, illegal defense, back to the basket, etc...

That said, I think the Spurs play the way they did in 2012 onwards more as a necessity due to the roster construction and realities (older, smart vets) more than anything else, and Pop having a first hand experience on how motion could completely wreck ISO play when executed right ('04 Olympics).

Worth mentioning also is that it takes a lot discipline and unselfishness to really pull it off, and that goes to both coaching and personnel. Some teams are trying, but time will tell who will be successful with it.

Ultimately, teams like the Dubs are extremely reliant on once in a generation talent in his prime, like Curry, and that's a wildcard you gotta have, no matter what you run. (Hopefully for the Spurs that will be Kawhi and/or Aldrige)

[wildbill2u]

Spurs' best penetration options are going away. Initial space is going to come more from forcing opposing teams to help on Kawhi or Aldridge kind of the way they did with Duncan way back when. Prime Parker and Manu made collapsing a defense child's play; it's going to take a little more work now but it's far from impossible.

Good point. The drive and kick out to the perimeter for a three was an extremely new concept at one time and I'm sure POP ran the numbers and found that the 3 was a much better shot to take statistically pointwise--if you had shooters that met or exceeded 35%. Now it looks like we are going back to more of an interior offense with the bigs and even Kwahi who seems a little leery to take the 3 compared to other years. I hope he doesn't lose that shot from disuse.

Passing around the perimeter whern we had a stable of 3 pt shooters led to a lot of easy shots, both outside and also in passes to people cutting to the basket. Will not be as easy to have big game totals without the 3s.

[Keepin' it real]

This shift was both logical and necessary, for obvious reasons, but has it gone too far?

No, it hasn't gone too far. The goal is to employ the best strategy based on available talent to win a title. Using the 2014 approach wouldn't work for this team. That 2014 team lacked superstar offensive talent. This year's team has a star in his prime (LMA) and a potential superstar (KL) just starting to come into his own. For these Spurs to reach their potential, they'll need LMA and KL to take more shots and sometimes "carry" the team to victories.


As talented as this team is, they'll still lose to the other elite teams in a series, if that's what it comes down to.

Really? Bummer ...

[Robz4000]

I think it's an natural evolution and part of a never-ending cycle of teams trying to figure out what works best with the rules du jour... League went from physicality, to big man domination, to perimeter hegemony, to strong ball movement now... and it's all influenced by rule changes... hand check, illegal defense, back to the basket, etc...

That said, I think the Spurs play the way they did in 2012 onwards more as a necessity due to the roster construction and realities (older, smart vets) more than anything else, and Pop having a first hand experience on how motion could completely wreck ISO play when executed right ('04 Olympics).

Worth mentioning also is that it takes a lot discipline and unselfishness to really pull it off, and that goes to both coaching and personnel. Some teams are trying, but time will tell who will be successful with it.

Ultimately, teams like the Dubs are extremely reliant on once in a generation talent in his prime, like Curry, and that's a wildcard you gotta have, no matter what you run. (Hopefully for the Spurs that will be Kawhi and/or Aldrige)
ElNono with the goods, per par. Spurs are generally ahead of the curve, but it was only a matter of time until the league moved towards it. In the end the Spurs still have a lot of advantages that can put them over the top (best coach, best vets, best perimeter defense, perhaps the best defensive front court, best leader (although that might not impact the Spurs much on the court)).

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Back when the third act of the Duncan era got started, in '12, the Spurs' motion offense was unique. Sure, they had unparalleled and underrated depth of talent, but they were also far and away the most intelligent and committed team in the league, essentially rendering their physical disadvantage against virtually the entire league moot. As a result, they ran roughshod over it for three years, with only the Heat and Thunder truly able to hang with them.

Culminating with the dismantling of the Heat in the '14 Finals, naturally the league began to copy them. Starting last season and continuing on to this one, a lot of teams run at least a semblance of their offense.

With the ascendance of Leonard and the decline of Parker/Ginobili, we saw a shift in their offense last season and it's continued this season with the addition of Aldridge. Now, they're somewhere in between what the majority of the league was (and in some cases, still is) and their former selves.

This shift was both logical and necessary, for obvious reasons, but has it gone too far? As talented as this team is, they'll still lose to the other elite teams in a series, if that's what it comes down to.

Which teams are you referring to that play the same manner as the Spurs? It seems like the league is moving more to small ball, where the 2-4 are almost interchangeable. Naturally, since all teams are using smaller players they may be better passers but I don't see any teams with the ball or player movement equal to spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

Tiago Splitter was one of the best pick and roll bigs in the league. I fully expect the Spurs to get back to that eventually, but with one of the best post-up players taking Splitter's place, it makes sense to lean toward his strengths early on rather than forcing him to just adapt to everyone else. Once they find a happy medium, the Spurs' offense is going to be a juggernaut.

[SAGirl]

I think it's an natural evolution and part of a never-ending cycle of teams trying to figure out what works best with the rules du jour... League went from physicality, to big man domination, to perimeter hegemony, to strong ball movement now... and it's all influenced by rule changes... hand check, illegal defense, back to the basket, etc...

That said, I think the Spurs play the way they did in 2012 onwards more as a necessity due to the roster construction and realities (older, smart vets) more than anything else, and Pop having a first hand experience on how motion could completely wreck ISO play when executed right ('04 Olympics).

Worth mentioning also is that it takes a lot discipline and unselfishness to really pull it off, and that goes to both coaching and personnel. Some teams are trying, but time will tell who will be successful with it.

Ultimately, teams like the Dubs are extremely reliant on once in a generation talent in his prime, like Curry, and that's a wildcard you gotta have, no matter what you run. (Hopefully for the Spurs that will be Kawhi and/or Aldrige)

Important to note that Pop has remarked, regarding the motion offense and passing, that he always emphasizes it but that he also happens to have players who are naturally gifted passers. He has specifically mentioned Diaw, Manu, and TD in that regard and we have to admit that when they sit, all three (think the SAC game in preseason and some other preseason minutes without these three), the team looks a whole lot different. Not a coincidence these guys keep getting top assists and when they are in the game, the ball moves a whole lot better. They have a knack for finding cutters or seeing things in a split second as they are developing. While everyone can be encouraged to be unselfish, elite passing is not a talent you can simply coach into someone. You need one or two guys who have that gift to make others better and promote ball movement better. Otherwise its a game of pass the hot potato.

Thus, Pop has made a priority to recruit young talent who can pass, bc these guys ^^^ are old, and won't be here for long and every year we have from them at this point is a gift. As much as Simmons can't dribble or shoot, Pop sung praises about him bc he could pass the ball really well and that was unexpected. Of Anderson Pop famously said that he is someone who makes everyone better. Pop is not one to give empty praise ever. So we'll just have to see how this all comes along.

At some point, hopefully soon Pop starts expanding the rotation to relieve the pressure on the vets, and that is something that we can't account for. Its just 4 games into the season.

[ElNono]

Important to note that Pop has remarked, regarding the motion offense and passing, that he always emphasizes it but that he also happens to have players who are naturally gifted passers. He has specifically mentioned Diaw, Manu, and TD in that regard and we have to admit that when they sit, all three (think the SAC game in preseason and some other preseason minutes without these three), the team looks a whole lot different. Not a coincidence these guys keep getting top assists and when they are in the game, the ball moves a whole lot better. They have a knack for finding cutters or seeing things in a split second as they are developing. While everyone can be encouraged to be unselfish, elite passing is not a talent you can simply coach into someone. You need one or two guys who have that gift to make others better and promote ball movement better. Otherwise its a game of pass the hot potato.

Thus, Pop has made a priority to recruit young talent who can pass, bc these guys ^^^ are old, and won't be here for long and every year we have from them at this point is a gift. As much as Simmons can't dribble or shoot, Pop sung praises about him bc he could pass the ball really well and that was unexpected. Of Anderson Pop famously said that he is someone who makes everyone better. Pop is not one to give empty praise ever. So we'll just have to see how this all comes along.

At some point, hopefully soon Pop starts expanding the rotation to relieve the pressure on the vets, and that is something that we can't account for. Its just 4 games into the season.

Yeah, I was addressing the league trend more than the Spurs itself. The reality is that while motion might be the best thing to run right now due to the rules, the real key is having a system that gets the most out of the personnel you have.

That has never really changed, and Pop has evolved through the years on that as his roster as evolved. Pop is a guy that knows familiarity is a strength, but at some point it's inevitable that you're going to have to shake things up and start rebuilding that again, because father time is undefeated.

This offseason has been that restart. Like every season, it's a process. That familiarity is somewhat lost, so we're trying to build it up again.

At the end of the regular season all we can hope for is that they are the best team they can be. There's a lot of variable that go into that, and there's no guarantees. So for now, it's time to enjoy the ride, and see what happens.

[Obstructed_View]

At some point, hopefully soon Pop starts expanding the rotation to relieve the pressure on the vets, and that is something that we can't account for. Its just 4 games into the season.

It's probably true that the bench guys would be getting a bit more of a shot had the Spurs not managed to lose the opener.

[100%duncan]

Good thing we have LMA and Kawhi to bail us out then :wakeup


But, we still have that gear tbh. When green is hitting, our offense is gonna be better.

[look_at_g_shred]

Spurs got it all. Post ups with LMA, KAWHI, Tim, Diaw, West, Anderson, Boban. Shooters with Green, KAWHI, Manu, Mills, Parker, Butler, Bonner. Drivers with Parker, Manu, Mills, McCallum, Simmons. All that plus a Top 5 defense. Like a poster above me said, Pop playing chess while the rest playing checkers.

If this team can stay healthy by the playoffs... NBA = cucked :lol
:wow

[TheGreatYacht]

:wow
Shit. Good catch :tu

Fixing it as I'm typing this

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya, we discussed this in the game thread the other night, the Spurs going from the team that changed the way the game is played to today's conventional, ISO-heavy team that relies on mid-range jump shots and points in the paint..

It was just a matter of time, though..most NBA franchises are still stuck in the past, hiring old men with antiquated views on the game, all it took was a progressive team like the Warriors to take the Spurs philosophy and put their own spin on it..a big difference being that the Warriors have a superstar in his prime, too, which the Spurs didn't have from 2012 to 2014..

The Spurs winning with this style of play would be pretty fitting, though:lol..I don't see it, right now, the team is playing really ugly basketball, they'll need to find a balance between the ball-movement and individual-centric ball..

[dabom]

Ya, we discussed this in the game thread the other night, the Spurs going from the team that changed the way the game is played to today's conventional, ISO-heavy team that relies on mid-range jump shots and points in the paint..

It was just a matter of time, though..most NBA franchises are still stuck in the past, hiring old men with antiquated views on the game, all it took was a progressive team like the Warriors to take the Spurs philosophy and put their own spin on it..a big difference being that the Warriors have a superstar in his prime, too, which the Spurs didn't have from 2012 to 2014..

The Spurs winning with this style of play would be pretty fitting, though:lol..I don't see it, right now, the team is playing really ugly basketball, they'll need to find a balance between the ball-movement and individual-centric ball..

Also good to know the Spurs rape the warriors. :lol

[LakerHater]

Itsa lack of Wing!

Losin Belli is showin & its hurtin.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Spurs would beat the Warriors in a playoff series, Thunder would give us a very hard time, and the Warriors would cuck the Thunder, its a dangerous game for all 3 of these teams and whoever can draw Clippers for the WCSF will go all the way imo, each team needs another team to help make their road easier.

[Spurtacular]

Spurs would beat the Warriors in a playoff series, Thunder would give us a very hard time, and the Warriors would cuck the Thunder, its a dangerous game for all 3 of these teams and whoever can draw Clippers for the WCSF will go all the way imo, each team needs another team to help make their road easier.

HCA is big. It's why the Spurs had the pedal to the medal from the start.

[Horry Hipcheck]

It's way too early for any of this. The Spurs suffered through a series of injuries in a year when Houston, Los Angeles, and Golden State all had breakout seasons. Nobody in the league is really running what the Spurs run, save for Atlanta and maybe the Dubs a little. We're 4 games into the Aldridge era. The Spurs haven't been this across-the-board healthy since 2014. Many looks resurgent. Give it time.

[SAGirl]

It's way too early for any of this. The Spurs suffered through a series of injuries in a year when Houston, Los Angeles, and Golden State all had breakout seasons. Nobody in the league is really running what the Spurs run, save for Atlanta and maybe the Dubs a little. We're 4 games into the Aldridge era. The Spurs haven't been this across-the-board healthy since 2014. Many looks resurgent. Give it time.
Haven't you heard we are all running like Chicken Little here, because our championship aspirations rest on Kyle Anderson

[aal04]

I want to see Boban center, Timmy PF, LMA SF, Kawhi SG, Kyle PG.

See if teams want to go small against that.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

No, only the Warriors have reached the Spurs level and that is because of Curry. Other than that, teams (Wizards, Hawks, Kings, etc) are mimicking the Spurs, but they have a long ways to go in actually executing on a nightly basis like the Spurs.

You have to have the players to do it. And only GS has the depth to sustain this type of play for 48 minutes.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Itsa lack of Wing!

Losin Belli is showin & its hurtin.

And just to think of all the threads trashing this guy over the past couple of years.

[I. Hustle]

In retrospect, the veolcity of the teams ascension is in direct correlation to the aforementioned derogatory reformation of the leagues anticipatory regurgitation. It is my belief that the Warriors of Golden State will pacify the NBAs need to quantify basic inconsequential floccinaucinihilipilification of the "Spurs way". In layman's terms, the league has adopted a fartlek style of play.


Or that was just complete gibberish and we have only played 4 games. The world is not ending.

[BillMc]

And just to think of all the threads trashing this guy over the past couple of years.

Yeah. What is the old saying? You don't know what you've got until you lose it?

[Chinook]

No. The Spurs have back to the pack. Getting rid of Splitter took away a defensive asset, whereas Parker getting slower has disabled their engine. The 2013 or 2014 Spurs would still run roughshod on the league.

[quentin_compson]

It's true that so far this season, it looks like the Spurs are going away from their ball-movement driven and three-point heavy offense to a more iso/midrange-centered style of play. But I'm sure Pop will try to blend these two philosophies together more as the season goes on. We'll see how successful that will turn out.

[Seventyniner]

Ya, we discussed this in the game thread the other night, the Spurs going from the team that changed the way the game is played to today's conventional, ISO-heavy team that relies on mid-range jump shots and points in the paint..

It was just a matter of time, though..most NBA franchises are still stuck in the past, hiring old men with antiquated views on the game, all it took was a progressive team like the Warriors to take the Spurs philosophy and put their own spin on it..a big difference being that the Warriors have a superstar in his prime, too, which the Spurs didn't have from 2012 to 2014..

The Spurs winning with this style of play would be pretty fitting, though:lol..I don't see it, right now, the team is playing really ugly basketball, they'll need to find a balance between the ball-movement and individual-centric ball..

Ironic that Parker being the focal point of the offense coincided with the best ball movement and the "beautiful game" while now that Parker has taken a step back (he had to, he's not good enough to be the engine anymore) the Spurs are using more post-ups and isolations.

[Brazil]

Ironic that Parker being the focal point of the offense coincided with the best ball movement and the "beautiful game" while now that Parker has taken a step back (he had to, he's not good enough to be the engine anymore) the Spurs are using more post-ups and isolations.

true.. tbh... :lol

[cjw]

I want to see Boban center, Timmy PF, LMA SF, Kawhi SG, Kyle PG.

See if teams want to go small against that.

So Boban clogging the paint and defenses slacking off Kyle because he has a 2x as long release as any other player? The lineup would rebound, but that's about it.

[TD 21]

So you're looking for this team to run their sophisticated offense and look like they can challenge the elite teams, with a new centerpiece that's never played with them before and other new faces by... Game 4?
You want to go ahead and start that discussion now?

Okay. I'll remain cliched for now then.

If you weren't so caught up in being defensive and actually comprehended what was written, you'd realize that I posed a question; I never gave an opinion.

Essentially, what I'm asking is, do you think they can win a championship with the offense looking like it did as last season progressed and has looked like to start this season?

It's possible this is the base of it going forward. The vast majority presume otherwise, but their two featured offensive players are not play makers or even ball movers.


Which teams are you referring to that play the same manner as the Spurs? It seems like the league is moving more to small ball, where the 2-4 are almost interchangeable. Naturally, since all teams are using smaller players they may be better passers but I don't see any teams with the ball or player movement equal to spurs.

A ton of teams run a semblance of the Spurs offense, particularly motion weak.

At this point, the Hawks and Warriors definitely have better ball/player movement than the Spurs.


No, it hasn't gone too far. The goal is to employ the best strategy based on available talent to win a title. Using the 2014 approach wouldn't work for this team. That 2014 team lacked superstar offensive talent. This year's team has a star in his prime (LMA) and a potential superstar (KL) just starting to come into his own. For these Spurs to reach their potential, they'll need LMA and KL to take more shots and sometimes "carry" the team to victories.



Really? Bummer ...

I realize the '14 approach wouldn't work; I said as much.


Um, I guess you watched a different final 25 games than the rest of the world did.

Who, besides Leonard, was playing at or near peak standards?

[SAGirl]

And just to think of all the threads trashing this guy over the past couple of years.
If he was here, he would still be trashed...

[dabom]

Parker shooting 0/15 in the fifth game of the finals. So beautiful. Lmao.lol

[dabom]

Manu's decline in 2015 and Tony being a negative player in 2015 was the reason we did bad.
j

[SAGirl]

Essentially, what I'm asking is, do you think they can win a championship with the offense looking like it did as last season progressed and has looked like to start this season?
Now I understand your question better and it is a good one. Pop believes the team can win with this style, but we will just have to see. I also think the way they are looking right now is not all they can be yet. There is room for improvement and some guys have started off slow (Danny and LMA, in particular--LMA is starting to take off, but not yet all that he can be for us.)

I think in the end, you have to play the style that suits your players better and the talent you have. Whether or not we can win with this style, there was no way of turning back the clock because Tony is not what he used to be and Manu's role is diminishing. Pop recruiting youngsters who can handle the basketball and pass better than they can shoot just gives you an indication of his priorities. Maybe Anderson looks redundant right now because Manu is looking fresh, but you can't take Manu for granted anymore, and if he goes down on us (God forbid), or he needs more help, a shooter was not going to help at all particularly when you already have a shooter for backup PG. But I am getting sidetracked a bit. The Spurs are changing their style, and its likely they are not yet all that they can be. I think we will get 3 pt shots, they will just be generated in a different way by a different player, and we will play a slower paced style.

There is a real experimental lineup that can play really fast, and we saw it in preseason. I will get flamed for sure by some guys I am ignoring, but what are these forums for, if not to exchange basketball opinions? LMA and Anderson played really fast in preseason. Even Boban/Anderson was a thing in preseason. I don't think Anderson is ready for that role, but that lineup with Kawhi, Danny and Ray played really, really energetic, had shooting, post up guys, sufficient defense and rebounding, and playmaking from a very unexpected spot in Anderson at the 4. Time will tell. That is probably ways off and depends on Anderson's development, but it gives you insight into Pop's exploration of different things.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ironic that Parker being the focal point of the offense coincided with the best ball movement and the "beautiful game" while now that Parker has taken a step back (he had to, he's not good enough to be the engine anymore) the Spurs are using more post-ups and isolations.

It's simply a matter of personnel, since Mills is a score-first 2-guard in a PG's body ..they could run the same offense with many PGs that could play Parker's previous role, and some SGs(although that position is pretty bad, at the moment) could run Ginobili's role, too, but they're too loyal to get rid of either of them, obviously..

[TD 21]

Now I understand your question better and it is a good one. Pop believes the team can win with this style, but we will just have to see. I also think the way they are looking right now is not all they can be yet. There is room for improvement and some guys have started off slow (Danny and LMA, in particular--LMA is starting to take off, but not yet all that he can be for us.)

I think in the end, you have to play the style that suits your players better and the talent you have. Whether or not we can win with this style, there was no way of turning back the clock because Tony is not what he used to be and Manu's role is diminishing. Pop recruiting youngsters who can handle the basketball and pass better than they can shoot just gives you an indication of his priorities. Maybe Anderson looks redundant right now because Manu is looking fresh, but you can't take Manu for granted anymore, and if he goes down on us (God forbid), or he needs more help, a shooter was not going to help at all particularly when you already have a shooter for backup PG. But I am getting sidetracked a bit. The Spurs are changing their style, and its likely they are not yet all that they can be. I think we will get 3 pt shots, they will just be generated in a different way by a different player, and we will play a slower paced style.

There is a real experimental lineup that can play really fast, and we saw it in preseason. I will get flamed for sure by some guys I am ignoring, but what are these forums for, if not to exchange basketball opinions? LMA and Anderson played really fast in preseason. Even Boban/Anderson was a thing in preseason. I don't think Anderson is ready for that role, but that lineup with Kawhi, Danny and Ray played really, really energetic, had shooting, post up guys, sufficient defense and rebounding, and playmaking from a very unexpected spot in Anderson at the 4. Time will tell. That is probably ways off and depends on Anderson's development, but it gives you insight into Pop's exploration of different things.

This might suit Leonard and Aldridge individually, but this team looks like a 4-5 seed and at best, 2nd round and out.

They're an absolute mess and it goes beyond the cliche reasons/excuses. All the disturbing trends (slow starts, zero poise down the stretch of close games, no lead play maker, a lack of three-point shooting) I saw last season have remained, only this time it can't be blamed on fatigue/injury, at least not yet.

[SAGirl]

This might suit Leonard and Aldridge individually, but this team looks like a 4-5 seed and at best, 2nd round and out.

They're an absolute mess and it goes beyond the cliche reasons/excuses. All the disturbing trends (slow starts, zero poise down the stretch of close games, no lead play maker, a lack of three-point shooting) I saw last season have remained, only this time it can't be blamed on fatigue/injury, at least not yet.
At this point Kawhi is our best player, Lamarcus needs to be the second. He's not, and that is concerning, but he should emerge as a force for us to punish the small ball teams. If these two don't come through for us, we are not going anywhere. I suppose deep down your question then is, can we win a championship with Kawhi and Lamarcus as our two best players? Maybe not, but you have to try.

The problem with Tony, maybe even TD to a degree, is that it is a huge adjustment for them to now play a game for others. It was awkward even last season, but now it is a real thing. TD getting position on the left block all the time, I don't think that can happen. Not to shit on a legend, but we need Lamarcus in a groove and he's not. He's starting games without touching the ball for long times, and when he does, its not even in spots he's comfortable shooting from. Kawhi has been sensational, but his effort on offense, means defensively he's not always there. He can take guys one on one, the Durants, and Carmelos of the world he's shut down pretty much. However, the Otto Porter and Beals of the world, who will just run him off screens and stuff? They ate him alive. He got stuck on screens a whole lot, committed offensive fouls trying to get around guys, etc. Last game was very poor for him defensively. He even failed in the last defensive possession. He stayed in the paint, instead of going to Beal and contest a 3. That simply can't happen.

We are going as far as these two are taking us. TD and Manu will always be there to help, but with them as our best players we are not winning a championship. It's tough for the team to make this transition, but I believe the unselfish players that they are and the fiery competitors that they are, they will figure it out.

[hitmantb]

It is extremely difficult to win a championship without a top 5 or even top 3 talent in the league.

Spurs 2014, Pistons 2004 were the exceptions. Heck, it took an Ibaka injury AND Tim posting up like it was 2003 in OT for Spurs to get past OKC.

If Curry is anywhere near his level right now, which makes his MVP season look weak in comparison, just hand them the rings.

[Keepin' it real]

It is extremely difficult to win a championship without a top 5 or even top 3 talent in the league.

Spurs 2014, Pistons 2004 were the exceptions.

This is something most Spurstalkers overlook. 2014 was great, but that team was an outlier. What do the pundits say every year in the playoffs? Stars -- not role players -- win championships. As you said, the 2014 Spurs were an exception.

That's why I'm pumped to have LMA in his prime, KL already as a top 10 player and best defender in the NBA, and Duncan still as a top 3 big man. Barring injury, regardless of how the Spurs look during the regular season, I LOVE their chances in the playoffs.

The one wildcard, which I hope we will see improved, is KL in the clutch. His shots at the end of the Washington game reminded me of his game 7 shots against LAC. Way too short. Pop will be putting the ball in KL's hands in the clutch in every close game during the regular season. I'm very eager to see him blossom as a clutch scorer. If he can blossom this season, go ahead and give the Spurs the trophy.

[tonight...you]

If you weren't so caught up in being defensive and actually comprehended what was written, you'd realize that I posed a question; I never gave an opinion.

Essentially, what I'm asking is, do you think they can win a championship with the offense looking like it did as last season progressed and has looked like to start this season?

My apologies for the defensiveness.
To answer your question, I'm going to be honest and say no. I don't really think so, and although I believe this is gong to be the basis of our offense, I also believe it will involve more motion and fluidity as the season progresses.

After watching "The Beautiful Game" the last few seasons, this is a bit of a culture shock, so to speak, but this team has won championships playing a more star-oriented gameplan also.

[Kawhitstorm]

Pop is thinking 2 steps ahead of the other coaches. The only way to beat the Dubs is by using ISO ball to control the pace & make them playing half-court offense. In addition to beefing up your frontline to punish their small ball lineup along w/ having two elite perimeter defenders to cover Curry/Klay. Pop has all the assets, it is all going to come down to building team chemistry & staying healthy all the way through June.

[TXstbobcat]

After coaching the team to 5 titles Pop went into this past offseason knowing the moves that the team needed to make to keep the Spurs at level needed to compete for a title this year. Just might take a little time to gel together.

[TD 21]

My apologies for the defensiveness.
To answer your question, I'm going to be honest and say no. I don't really think so, and although I believe this is gong to be the basis of our offense, I also believe it will involve more motion and fluidity as the season progresses.

After watching "The Beautiful Game" the last few seasons, this is a bit of a culture shock, so to speak, but this team has won championships playing a more star-oriented gameplan also.

No problem.

They "won championships playing a more star-oriented gameplan" when they had the best player in the league. Right now, their best player is probably the ninth best player in the league. That may not sound that significant, but it is in a league where almost every champion has had a top three player.

This is what I mean by them needing to be a combination of the '12-'14 Spurs and the more traditional championship teams because they still don't quite have the star power of the other elite teams.



Pop is thinking 2 steps ahead of the other coaches. The only way to beat the Dubs is by using ISO ball to control the pace & make them playing half-court offense. In addition to beefing up your frontline to punish their small ball lineup along w/ having two elite perimeter defenders to cover Curry/Klay. Pop has all the assets, it is all going to come down to building team chemistry & staying healthy all the way through June.

I actually agree that, in order to beat the Warriors in a series, they will have to be heavily reliant on iso ball, in the form of post ups. But against the other elite teams, I don't see it.

[SAGirl]

Pop is thinking 2 steps ahead of the other coaches. The only way to beat the Dubs is by using ISO ball to control the pace & make them playing half-court offense. In addition to beefing up your frontline to punish their small ball lineup along w/ having two elite perimeter defenders to cover Curry/Klay. Pop has all the assets, it is all going to come down to building team chemistry & staying healthy all the way through June.
Good Take. Agree with you on this. Right now chemistry wise we are not looking good, but it is early. If it comes together, and guys are healthy they can win a championship for sure. Right now they look disjointed, but lets hope they don't look like that all season.

[SAGirl]

No problem.

They "won championships playing a more star-oriented gameplan" when they had the best player in the league. Right now, their best player is probably the ninth best player in the league. That may not sound that significant, but it is in a league where almost every champion has had a top three player.

This is what I mean by them needing to be a combination of the '12-'14 Spurs and the more traditional championship teams because they still don't quite have the star power of the other elite teams.




I actually agree that, in order to beat the Warriors in a series, they will have to be heavily reliant on iso ball, in the form of post ups. But against the other elite teams, I don't see it.
Agree with you too, in that a hybrid system is the best. You need the two stars we have to be balling and mastering their iso ball style, but we also need ball movement and versatility, which our bench guys are best at. Right now our starting unit is disjointed, because there are actually 3 post players if you count TD... Danny is a spot up shooter, and Tony is a scoring PG. I would say the starting unit needs a glue guy, a passer that just moves the ball to the guy who has the best mistmatch in a particular possession or the hot hand, or who got position to score early, etc. You get my point. Tony is trying to be that guy, but its been mixed results. His management of the game has been iffy. I think the team has to get Aldridge going early. He's a rhythm guy that was used to being fed the ball early and often. Not going to be so often here, and he's already showing signs of unselfish play, but if he's taking less shots overall, you have to set him up early, to get his confidence and flow going.

Kawhi is looking like a star already but they don't always find him when the opposing team goes on a run. There are just too many things in the offense of the starting unit that don't quite mesh. There is some bumping going on in roles between TD and Aldridge.

[Kawhitstorm]

Good Take. Agree with you on this. Right now chemistry wise we are not looking good, but it is early. If it comes together, and guys are healthy they can win a championship for sure. Right now they look disjointed, but lets hope they don't look like that all season.

I knew you were going to have my back boo:makeout