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I think a big part of the problem is the digression of many teams. The Dubs, etc. have are playing too many cake teams. An older teams like the Spurs has less margin for error.
Back when the third act of the Duncan era got started, in '12, the Spurs' motion offense was unique. Sure, they had unparalleled and underrated depth of talent, but they were also far and away the most intelligent and committed team in the league, essentially rendering their physical disadvantage against virtually the entire league moot. As a result, they ran roughshod over it for three years, with only the Heat and Thunder truly able to hang with them.
Culminating with the dismantling of the Heat in the '14 Finals, naturally the league began to copy them. Starting last season and continuing on to this one, a lot of teams run at least a semblance of their offense.
With the ascendance of Leonard and the decline of Parker/Ginobili, we saw a shift in their offense last season and it's continued this season with the addition of Aldridge. Now, they're somewhere in between what the majority of the league was (and in some cases, still is) and their former selves.
This shift was both logical and necessary, for obvious reasons, but has it gone too far? As talented as this team is, they'll still lose to the other elite teams in a series, if that's what it comes down to.
I think a big part of the problem is the digression of many teams. The Dubs, etc. have are playing too many cake teams. An older teams like the Spurs has less margin for error.
This discussion should really be started around the end of March, when we and the team itself kind of knows what it is and what they're fully capable of.
Right now is nowhere near representative of what they'll be by April.
I knew this cliche response was coming, but as I alluded to, this started last season.
Even when they took off, in the final 25 or so games, they never looked like they did the previous 3 seasons, when they were firing on all cylinders. That run was mostly sparked by Leonard playing MVP caliber on both ends.
In order to win a championship, the final product of this team has to be a combination of the team from '12-'14 and what a more traditional championship team looks like because they're not out starring or iso balling the elite teams in a series.
Nah. Pop still playing chess while the rest of the is playing checkers.
So you're looking for this team to run their sophisticated offense and look like they can challenge the elite teams, with a new centerpiece that's never played with them before and other new faces by... Game 4?
You want to go ahead and start that discussion now?
Okay. I'll remain cliched for now then.
Um, I guess you watched a different final 25 games than the rest of the world did.
It's too early at this point. I was not a fan of the Kawhiso offense, but they went away from it being so mechanical and forced like it was at the beginning towards the end of last season, and this season it is a lot more organic. Kawhi is now scoring in a whole bunch of ways, coming off screens, transition, spotted up and assisted from teammates, off the dribble, and yes, there are post ups, but many of them when he grabs position freely, not a forced thing, or he finds matches or gaps. Its a whole lot more organic what he's doing right now, than what he was doing to start last season. LMA is not fully integrated either. He's looking as forced right now as Kawhi to start last season.
It's just a whole lot of adjustment. Its too early to say how it will look in March. Pop is always motivating them to move the ball and play with each other. We haven't seen it much yet, outside of some sequences here o there, but that doesn't mean they won't catch a groove later.
Spurs' best penetration options are going away. Initial space is going to come more from forcing opposing teams to help on Kawhi or Aldridge kind of the way they did with Duncan way back when. Prime Parker and Manu made collapsing a defense child's play; it's going to take a little more work now but it's far from impossible.
Spurs got it all. Post ups with LMA, Kawhi, Tim, Diaw, West, Anderson, Boban. Shooters with Green, Kawhi, Manu, Mills, Parker, Butler, Bonner. Drivers with Parker, Manu, Mills, McCallum, Simmons. All that plus a Top 5 defense. Like a poster above me said, Pop playing chess while the rest playing checkers.
If this team can stay healthy by the playoffs... NBA = cucked
I think it's an natural evolution and part of a never-ending cycle of teams trying to figure out what works best with the rules du jour... League went from physicality, to big man domination, to perimeter hegemony, to strong ball movement now... and it's all influenced by rule changes... hand check, illegal defense, back to the basket, etc...
That said, I think the Spurs play the way they did in 2012 onwards more as a necessity due to the roster construction and realities (older, smart vets) more than anything else, and Pop having a first hand experience on how motion could completely wreck ISO play when executed right ('04 Olympics).
Worth mentioning also is that it takes a lot discipline and unselfishness to really pull it off, and that goes to both coaching and personnel. Some teams are trying, but time will tell who will be successful with it.
Ultimately, teams like the Dubs are extremely reliant on once in a generation talent in his prime, like Curry, and that's a wildcard you gotta have, no matter what you run. (Hopefully for the Spurs that will be Kawhi and/or Aldrige)
Good point. The drive and kick out to the perimeter for a three was an extremely new concept at one time and I'm sure POP ran the numbers and found that the 3 was a much better shot to take statistically pointwise--if you had shooters that met or exceeded 35%. Now it looks like we are going back to more of an interior offense with the bigs and even Kwahi who seems a little leery to take the 3 compared to other years. I hope he doesn't lose that shot from disuse.
Passing around the perimeter whern we had a stable of 3 pt shooters led to a lot of easy shots, both outside and also in passes to people cutting to the basket. Will not be as easy to have big game totals without the 3s.
No, it hasn't gone too far. The goal is to employ the best strategy based on available talent to win a le. Using the 2014 approach wouldn't work for this team. That 2014 team lacked superstar offensive talent. This year's team has a star in his prime (LMA) and a potential superstar (KL) just starting to come into his own. For these Spurs to reach their potential, they'll need LMA and KL to take more shots and sometimes "carry" the team to victories.
Really? Bummer ...
ElNono with the goods, per par. Spurs are generally ahead of the curve, but it was only a matter of time until the league moved towards it. In the end the Spurs still have a lot of advantages that can put them over the top (best coach, best vets, best perimeter defense, perhaps the best defensive front court, best leader (although that might not impact the Spurs much on the court)).
Which teams are you referring to that play the same manner as the Spurs? It seems like the league is moving more to small ball, where the 2-4 are almost interchangeable. Naturally, since all teams are using smaller players they may be better passers but I don't see any teams with the ball or player movement equal to spurs.
Tiago Splitter was one of the best pick and roll bigs in the league. I fully expect the Spurs to get back to that eventually, but with one of the best post-up players taking Splitter's place, it makes sense to lean toward his strengths early on rather than forcing him to just adapt to everyone else. Once they find a happy medium, the Spurs' offense is going to be a juggernaut.
Important to note that Pop has remarked, regarding the motion offense and passing, that he always emphasizes it but that he also happens to have players who are naturally gifted passers. He has specifically mentioned Diaw, Manu, and TD in that regard and we have to admit that when they sit, all three (think the SAC game in preseason and some other preseason minutes without these three), the team looks a whole lot different. Not a coincidence these guys keep getting top assists and when they are in the game, the ball moves a whole lot better. They have a knack for finding cutters or seeing things in a split second as they are developing. While everyone can be encouraged to be unselfish, elite passing is not a talent you can simply coach into someone. You need one or two guys who have that gift to make others better and promote ball movement better. Otherwise its a game of pass the hot potato.
Thus, Pop has made a priority to recruit young talent who can pass, bc these guys ^^^ are old, and won't be here for long and every year we have from them at this point is a gift. As much as Simmons can't dribble or shoot, Pop sung praises about him bc he could pass the ball really well and that was unexpected. Of Anderson Pop famously said that he is someone who makes everyone better. Pop is not one to give empty praise ever. So we'll just have to see how this all comes along.
At some point, hopefully soon Pop starts expanding the rotation to relieve the pressure on the vets, and that is something that we can't account for. Its just 4 games into the season.
Yeah, I was addressing the league trend more than the Spurs itself. The reality is that while motion might be the best thing to run right now due to the rules, the real key is having a system that gets the most out of the personnel you have.
That has never really changed, and Pop has evolved through the years on that as his roster as evolved. Pop is a guy that knows familiarity is a strength, but at some point it's inevitable that you're going to have to shake things up and start rebuilding that again, because father time is undefeated.
This offseason has been that restart. Like every season, it's a process. That familiarity is somewhat lost, so we're trying to build it up again.
At the end of the regular season all we can hope for is that they are the best team they can be. There's a lot of variable that go into that, and there's no guarantees. So for now, it's time to enjoy the ride, and see what happens.
It's probably true that the bench guys would be getting a bit more of a shot had the Spurs not managed to lose the opener.
Good thing we have LMA and Kawhi to bail us out then
But, we still have that gear tbh. When green is hitting, our offense is gonna be better.
Spurs got it all. Post ups with LMA, KAWHI, Tim, Diaw, West, Anderson, Boban. Shooters with Green, KAWHI, Manu, Mills, Parker, Butler, Bonner. Drivers with Parker, Manu, Mills, McCallum, Simmons. All that plus a Top 5 defense. Like a poster above me said, Pop playing chess while the rest playing checkers.
If this team can stay healthy by the playoffs... NBA = cucked
. Good catch
Fixing it as I'm typing this
Ya, we discussed this in the game thread the other night, the Spurs going from the team that changed the way the game is played to today's conventional, ISO-heavy team that relies on mid-range jump shots and points in the paint..
It was just a matter of time, though..most NBA franchises are still stuck in the past, hiring old men with antiquated views on the game, all it took was a progressive team like the Warriors to take the Spurs philosophy and put their own spin on it..a big difference being that the Warriors have a superstar in his prime, too, which the Spurs didn't have from 2012 to 2014..
The Spurs winning with this style of play would be pretty fitting, though
Also good to know the Spurs rape the warriors.Ya, we discussed this in the game thread the other night, the Spurs going from the team that changed the way the game is played to today's conventional, ISO-heavy team that relies on mid-range jump shots and points in the paint..
It was just a matter of time, though..most NBA franchises are still stuck in the past, hiring old men with antiquated views on the game, all it took was a progressive team like the Warriors to take the Spurs philosophy and put their own spin on it..a big difference being that the Warriors have a superstar in his prime, too, which the Spurs didn't have from 2012 to 2014..
The Spurs winning with this style of play would be pretty fitting, though
Itsa lack of Wing!
Losin Belli is showin & its hurtin.
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