The offensive performance of Spurs' players with/without Kawhi on the court

[SpursFan86]

http://i.imgur.com/Qb84TC9.png

Obviously some of this has to do with small sample sizes (Aldridge has played the most minutes without Kawhi, 143 minutes), but still...it's pretty crazy how there's such a big discrepancy.

I came across the graphic and found it interesting. Figured it could start some good discussion, albeit also opening up the floodgates for trolling.

[dabom]

Topic is from reddit. edit.

Kawhi always plays versus starters ALL the time and versus their best player all the time.

Our bench plays more offense and worse defense and they play great versus other bench players.

When those other players play during bench player times they will have a higher offensive rating. This is an outlier because we have a GREAT bench unlike all other teams.

[dabom]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus




RK
NAME
TEAM
GP
MPG
ORPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM)
DRPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM)
RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM)
WINS (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS)


1
Russell Westbrook (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3468/russell-westbrook), PG
OKC
30
34.3
9.47
1.61
11.08
9.26


2
Stephen Curry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3975/stephen-curry), PG
GS
29
34.9
9.42
0.87
10.29
9.04


3
Kawhi Leonard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard), SF
SA
30
33.4
5.51
4.76
10.27
8.46


4
LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james), SF
CLE
27
36.1
5.71
2.27
7.98
6.64


5
Kyle Lowry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3012/kyle-lowry), PG
TOR
31
35.6
5.55
2.19
7.74
7.54





Current as of today.

[TheMulletMan3000]

I think LMA, Timmy and Kawhi are not playing well together. Danny can't space the floor and it get's little shitty down there. Would like to see shooting w/wo LMA and Timmy also. Rest of the team is OK.
Also, does anyone think that TP % without KL is realistic? :lol

[TheMulletMan3000]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus




RK
NAME
TEAM
GP
MPG
ORPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM)
DRPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM)
RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM)
WINS (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS)


1
Russell Westbrook (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3468/russell-westbrook), PG
OKC
30
34.3
9.47
1.61
11.08
9.26


2
Stephen Curry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3975/stephen-curry), PG
GS
29
34.9
9.42
0.87
10.29
9.04


3
Kawhi Leonard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard), SF
SA
30
33.4
5.51
4.76
10.27
8.46


4
LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james), SF
CLE
27
36.1
5.71
2.27
7.98
6.64


5
Kyle Lowry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3012/kyle-lowry), PG
TOR
31
35.6
5.55
2.19
7.74
7.54





Current as of today.

Sugar motherfuckin' K :toast

[TheMulletMan3000]

with LMA
without


Kawhi Leonard
50.6
50


Tony Parker
53
62.5


Danny Green
32.4
39.2


Tim Duncan
49.4
59


Patty Mills
46.6
43.8


Boris Diaw
38.5
56.3


Manu Ginobili
36.6
45.9


Kyle Anderson
45
43.9


Manu Ginóbili
55.6
45.9/43.6


David West
55.6
53.8


Jonathon Simmons
50
45.5


Rasual Butler
46.2
38.1


Ray McCallum
37.5
38.5


Matt Bonner
33.3
58.8


Boban Marjanovic
0
61.1




I hope there's no mistakes. It gave me 2 results for Manu. Don't know why. NBAwowy is source

[dabom]

This has to do with starters/bench splits. any Spur fan would know right away.

[ceperez]

Let's be real here. The main relevant statistic about one player improving another players offensive efficiency is this metric called 'assists'. Leonard doesn't assist a lot. What is more important with Leonard is the +/- of players on the court with him and not their shooting percentages.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fuck KawhISOS :pctoss:

[YGWHI]

Fuck KawhISOS :pctoss:

Wrong answer. Kawhi's taking just ONE more unassisted attempt than last season.

[YGWHI]

with LMA

without



Kawhi Leonard

50.6

50



Tony Parker

53

62.5



Danny Green

32.4

39.2



Tim Duncan

49.4

59



Patty Mills

46.6

43.8



Boris Diaw

38.5

56.3



Manu Ginobili

36.6

45.9



Kyle Anderson

45

43.9



Manu Ginóbili

55.6

45.9/43.6



David West

55.6

53.8



Jonathon Simmons

50

45.5



Rasual Butler

46.2

38.1



Ray McCallum

37.5

38.5



Matt Bonner

33.3

58.8



Boban Marjanovic


61.1





Since the player who has the lower FG percentage by the biggest margin with Kawhi/with LMA is Parker...and the player who's shotting better with both on the court is Patty...

Should Pop....?

[Mel_13]

Since the player who has the lower FG percentage by the biggest margin without Kawhi and without LMA is Parker...and the player who's shotting better with both on the courst is Patty...

Should Pop....?

:lol

Well played.

[YGWHI]

:lol

Well played.

Just trolling TYG.

IMO Parker's having a pretty good season, LMA is adapting to the system and will be great for us, he's already great...the Spurs'll be fine.

[Mel_13]

Just trolling TYG.

IMO Parker's having a pretty good season, LMA is adapting to the system and will be great for us, he's already great...the Spurs'll be fine.

Yeah, it was clear what you were doing and it was very well done.

[rasuo214]

Are we to believe that Parker is an 80% shooter and Kawhi is holding him back? Also shooting percentage isn't offensive performance. I'll be updating my player pairings after the month and we'll see how it looks.

[SupremeGuy]

Since the player who has the lower FG percentage by the biggest margin with Kawhi/with LMA is Parker...and the player who's shotting better with both on the court is Patty...

Should Pop....?:lol

[cjw]

+15 net rating vs +12 when not on court. It's not his fault that he's facing starter units while the Spurs bench unit is a wrecking crew and putting up a title contender-worthy differential themselves.

[Kool Bob Love]

Fuck KawhISOS :pctoss:

You called it. I won't lie I was hoping you was wrong. Props to you tho.

Kawhobe Bryonard. :pctoss

[Kool Bob Love]

Kawhi stans trying to spin shit ITT, sorry clowns like Young Hov said....


http://youtu.be/FIwxIobtab4

[bic50]

Spurs 26-6 of course greatcuck and feline fucker being bitches as usual.

[100%duncan]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus




RK
NAME
TEAM
GP
MPG
ORPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM)
DRPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM)
RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM)
WINS (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS)


1
Russell Westbrook (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3468/russell-westbrook), PG
OKC
30
34.3
9.47
1.61
11.08
9.26


2
Stephen Curry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3975/stephen-curry), PG
GS
29
34.9
9.42
0.87
10.29
9.04


3
Kawhi Leonard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard), SF
SA
30
33.4
5.51
4.76
10.27
8.46


4
LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james), SF
CLE
27
36.1
5.71
2.27
7.98
6.64


5
Kyle Lowry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3012/kyle-lowry), PG
TOR
31
35.6
5.55
2.19
7.74
7.54





Current as of today.





with LMA
without


Kawhi Leonard
50.6
50


Tony Parker
53
62.5


Danny Green
32.4
39.2


Tim Duncan
49.4
59


Patty Mills
46.6
43.8


Boris Diaw
38.5
56.3


Manu Ginobili
36.6
45.9


Kyle Anderson
45
43.9


Manu Ginóbili
55.6
45.9/43.6


David West
55.6
53.8


Jonathon Simmons
50
45.5


Rasual Butler
46.2
38.1


Ray McCallum
37.5
38.5


Matt Bonner
33.3
58.8


Boban Marjanovic
0
61.1




I hope there's no mistakes. It gave me 2 results for Manu. Don't know why. NBAwowy is source

Kawhi haters :lmao

Using TS as an evaluation of a player. Team is worse with aldridge too then.

[Kawhitstorm]

Obviously some of this has to do with small sample sizes (Aldridge has played the most minutes without Kawhi, 143 minutes), but still...it's pretty crazy how there's such a big discrepancy.

Are we going to ignore the that Kawhi didn't play against the Sixers when the team shot a season high 61% including LMA going 11-15:lmao. It also makes sense Tim's TS% goes up when Kawhi is off the floor b/c he isn't out there jacking up mid-range bricks:lol. I'm assuming Porker has the smallest sample size b/c TS=80%:lmao

BTW there is data that supports that Danny/LMA are the WORST 2-man combo:lol & Danny isn't on any of the top ten 4-man lineups:depressed: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016/lineups/ . Manu plays way better than Danny w/ the other starting 4 & Danny plays best w/ West on the floor so might have to let Danny play most of his minutes w/ the bench unit although Manu is going to keep his 6th man role. The best way to do it is probably to play Kawhi/LMA play the entire 1st quarter then starting Danny/West in the 2nd quarter (Manu always checks in for Danny at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter). **Boban/Simmons can play depending on the matchup or who's resting**

Basically, start the usual 5 (Porker/Danny/Kawhi/LMA/Tim) & at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter sub in Patty for Tony, Diaw for Tim & Manu for Danny. Let the Patty/Manu/Kawhi/Diaw/LMA lineup finish the 1st quarter then start the 2nd quarter w/ Porker/Danny/Fathead/West/Tim. Finish the 2nd quarter w/ the group that's playing well then repeat the same thing in the 2nd half.

This would also mean there will always be a wing defender & rim protector on the floor b/c the Turd Towers (Diaw/West) will be eliminated & either Kawhi or Danny will be on the floor.

[TheGreatYacht]

You called it. I won't lie I was hoping you was wrong. Props to you tho.

Kawhobe Bryonard. :pctoss
No surprise that the team won by 50 (literally.) when Kiwi sat.

Mf holding TP back too smfh

[bic50]

Since the player who has the lower FG percentage by the biggest margin with Kawhi/with LMA is Parker...and the player who's shotting better with both on the court is Patty...

Should Pop....?

[TheMulletMan3000]

Fuck KawhISOS :pctoss:

He's good at it and he doesn't iso much.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&CF=Poss*G*45&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP

(http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&CF=Poss*G*45&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP)

[bic50]

He's good at it and he doesn't iso much.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&CF=Poss*G*45&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP

(http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&CF=Poss*G*45&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP)

[TD 21]

Are we going to ignore the that Kawhi didn't play against the Sixers when the team shot a season high 61% including LMA going 11-15:lmao. It also makes sense Tim's TS% goes up when Kawhi is off the floor b/c he isn't out there jacking up mid-range bricks:lol. I'm assuming Porker has the smallest sample size b/c TS=80%:lmao

BTW there is data that supports that Danny/LMA are the WORST 2-man combo:lol & Danny isn't on any of the top ten 4-man lineups:depressed: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016/lineups/ . Manu plays way better than Danny w/ the other starting 4 & Danny plays best w/ West on the floor so might have to let Danny play most of his minutes w/ the bench unit although Manu is going to keep his 6th man role. The best way to do it is probably to play Kawhi/LMA play the entire 1st quarter then starting Danny/West in the 2nd quarter (Manu always checks in for Danny at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter). **Boban/Simmons can play depending on the matchup or who's resting**

Basically, start the usual 5 (Porker/Danny/Kawhi/LMA/Tim) & at the 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter sub in Patty for Tony, Diaw for Tim & Manu for Danny. Let the Patty/Manu/Kawhi/Diaw/LMA lineup finish the 1st quarter then start the 2nd quarter w/ Porker/Danny/Fathead/West/Tim. Finish the 2nd quarter w/ the group that's playing well then repeat the same thing in the 2nd half.

This would also mean there will always be a wing defender & rim protector on the floor b/c the Turd Towers (Diaw/West) will be eliminated & either Kawhi or Danny will be on the floor.

The wing rotation essentially already plays out this way. Generally, instead of Anderson/Simmons entering for Leonard in the final minute of the 1st/start of the 2nd quarter, Green instead re-enters and Anderson/Simmons enter for Ginobili around the 10-9 minute mark of the 2nd quarter.

West and Diaw play 4-5 minute stints together, but it's necessary, in order to have Duncan and Aldridge play the first and final six together, while managing Duncan's minutes. Besides, overall, it hasn't proven to be a major issue.

Your idea of three different lineups and letting whichever is going better play the final 6 minutes of each half isn't practical, since it could lead to Duncan, for example, playing an 18 minute half or Ginobili playing a 6 minute half. It could also lead to the five best players not closing close games.

The current rotation is the correct one, they just need to find a fourth wing that's a better fit.