Boban... is he really a keeper?

[SAGirl]

I don't know. I am starting to have my doubts on Boban. We have debated both Anderson and Simmons, but not enough on Boban.

Boban is starting to look doubtful to me. We will recall Anderson (and to a lesser degree Butler) getting blown by Justin Anderson or Villanueva, and that was cringeworthy... but what is more noteworthy is that in all those drives there was an absolute lack of help or rim protection. . Boban was always in the perimeter hanging out maybe dealing with Powell... maybe it was a test by Pop to see how well Boban would do in that kind of situation, can he detect what is going on and help or not? Would it not have been better for him to just stand back close to the rim and then close out if the ball went to Powell? He was just too inadequate.

Yes he also got dunked on repeatedly, and he also struggled with PnR defense, but the absolute lack of Boban hanging close to the paint to help on drives was absolutely the nail in the coffin for me. He struggled on everything defensively.

The other pet peeve with Boban... this one on offense. The offense with the garbage time crew in the 4th was really saved by Ray/Simmons/Kyle (Patty when he was there too), because Boban's screens don't free up anyone. He is a nice passer though, and as always if he manages to catch a ball (and the perimeter players manage to get him the ball too) close to the basket he's absolutely dominant and must get fouled or the ball is going in... so his positives are still his positives, but the more we watch him, his negatives stand out.

Is that something he can improve on? What is the prognosis for Boban?

[Brazil]

I'd say that boban in 4 months showed more than Anderson in two years...

Boban an is a keeper a dud with his size and skills at this age... You keep it and it's a no brainer

[KenziE]

Why u up so early ?

Boban hed be alright ... Ill take him 10/10 over pendergraph / ayres tbh

what about tonight against LA hoping we beat they've ballin lately

[UZER]

He really needs to work on his D in the spurs system. He also needs to work on and understanding the proper positioning for someone his size. He gets blown by alot because. he stands to close to players away from the basket. He needs to give them some space and meet them at the rim when they drive. Tim is the best guy to teach him that kinda stuff. This isn't Europe, even the scrubs are quick and explosive.

He also needs to get more physical on O. Right now when he tries they call fouls. Eff it, just keep pounding and eventually they will start swallowing the whistle once the realize he's just a really big dude, as long as it's not dirty.

[SAGirl]

I don't know honestly... I liked him a lot, but he's looked very doubtful defensively... its like he doesn't know where he needs to be or what he should be doing. Could be adjustment from Europe to Pop's schemes.

I mean if your ceiling for him is Ayers then fine. I thought he could be more TBH.. that is why I am disappointed.

And actually Ayers was an extremely undersized guy for a center, but he executed Pop's defensive schemes well, which is the big problem and will keep him in an Ayers role when he could be more.

[Old School 44]

He's definitely a keeper, unless somebody overpays for him.

[KenziE]

Lets enjoy the ride with boban hes been a real surprise in my book this early in his rookie season ... We have had worst 4th stringer bigs tbh

[SAGirl]

We have had worst 4th stringer bigs tbh
I was not around to witness the atrocities.... :lol

Definitely has a lot to learn on both ends. My hope for him was not that he remain a 4th stringer big though. I think he can be a real rotational player if he improved. But his flaws have just become really glaring the more he plays and I don't think he has improved on them.

Maybe I am overreacting to a bad game from him. He will certainly have enough film for his own roast session of Boban.

[100%duncan]

1-2 weeks earlier you called those who made fun of the thread "can boban start" or someshit as trolls. You and some people actually thought this dude was gonna be an NBA level starter :lol how 2 weeks can change one's mind tbh

[raybies]

1-2 weeks earlier you called those who made fun of the thread "can boban start" or someshit as trolls. You and some people actually thought this dude was gonna be an NBA level starter :lol how 2 weeks can change one's mind tbh

Yup I've soured on him a bit too. Would rather have another rim protector and better roller and another stretch 4 next year. Duncan's absence has altered my thoughts on him to some degree. I mean he's a situational big. I understand that now. And unless a miracle happens I don't see him as anything more. He can't guard the pick and roll, or faster players, or stretch bigs. He would have to be dominant as heck on offense to offset that... But I thought he could be a better rim protector.

[Yuixafun]

They were running a dunk drill on him �� he's slow to react, and not mean enough to foul those guys

[boutons_deux]

I don't know either, seems lost, tentative, not really dominating the backboards. Maybe they can bring him along next summer.

[bigfan]

He's a keeper if he's cheap. If someone wants to overpay him, adios. I mean, well he's better than Cherokee Parks.

[Russo21]

I was high on Boban also and I think he has the talent and size obviously to be a good backup. Someone that big is never going to be quick footed. I think Boban suffers a bit from Gigantism, ala Gheorge Muresan. Well I may as well check on my hunch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humans_with_gigantism

NBA Draft notes about Boban " ... There is some concern about gigantism, though he doesn't have nearly as pronounced features as most guys that do suffer from the disorder ... "

Muresan only played 6 NBA Seasons and Boban has some similar features that most humans with gigantism have. So he will definitely not have a long basketball career and unfortunately may not even have a long life span. In most cases people with Gigantism don't have pronounced side effects until the age of 30, so as crazy as it seems it is somewhat likely Boban hasn't full grown yet at age 27.

It is remarkable Boban can do the things he does but he does have drawbacks and if he does have to deal with full blown Gigantism at age 30 it could be nearly the end of his career with another growth spurt. He will never be a game changer but he is such a nice friendly guy, gets the crowd behind him (both at home and away) and has some skill. I'd like to keep him for a few more years until the end of what will ultimately be a very short career and unfortunately a possibly short life.

PS: He has a PER of 30.89 lmao Boban the Destroyer!

[kuato]

Diaw and Manu are the only ones that knows how to assist Boban

[SpursFan86]

He's still a rookie and getting inconsistent playing time...expecting him to consistently play well every time he goes out there is unrealistic at this point.

He's shown a ton of promise so far. I don't agree with the people who think he'll end up starting, but I can see him being a ~20 mpg guy who is very productive in limited minutes.

[Fireball]

2nd year will show what he is all about tbh

[GSH]

Boban is going through what pretty much all rookie big men in the NBA go through. It's an adjustment. Go back and look at someone like Marcin Gortat's first year or two in the NBA. Better still, go back and look at all the people here who screamed about how bad Splitter was in his first year or two. Now a bunch of people cry about trading him. The low blocks are a fucking war zone in the NBA. Boban was a damned solid player in Europe, just like Splitter was. And he'll adjust, just like Splitter did.

He's huge, and clogs the lane more than nearly anyone I've ever seen. He runs the floor pretty damn good, for his size. He has pretty quick hands, unlike a lot of lumbering giants (which he's not). He's smart, and he's always paying attention to try and learn. And he can shoot the ball.

Shit... why wouldn't that be a keeper?

The ONLY two concerns I have is that he might wind up getting too much money for his current state of development. And I don't understand how someone can play as long as he has, and seemingly not have any understanding of the PnR. He'll learn the PnR. Hopefully he'll have realistic money expectations. I think he likes it here.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Spurs should definitely keep him, but thinking of him as more than a 15-20 min backup center at his ceiling is probably a setup for disappointment. I love the guy, but just because he loves to dunk and clown Jahlil doesn't mean he'll be a future cornerstone. There's definitely room for improvement, and I think he can carve out a bigger role for himself next year. Like many have said already, it's just the growing pain of being a rookie at the end of the bench. I think a year under his belt will be huge for him come next season.

[TheGreatYacht]

So OP is concerned with Boban who had 7pts, 7reb on 2-3 shooting, but not fathead who laid another egg and ended up with an impressive 1-5 shooting performance?

[AFMadison]

I agree Boban has some rim protection issues, but good god I can't count how many times Anderson gets blown by on defense and it's not because of him being "slow", it's because he reaches or over anticipates a pass and gets out of position. I've called it out many times before and it never changes. I like Kyle but for fucks sake keep your feet in front of your man

[spurs10]

I don't know. I am starting to have my doubts on Boban. We have debated both Anderson and Simmons, but not enough on Boban.

Boban is starting to look doubtful to me. We will recall Anderson (and to a lesser degree Butler) getting blown by Justin Anderson or Villanueva, and that was cringeworthy... but what is more noteworthy is that in all those drives there was an absolute lack of help or rim protection. . Boban was always in the perimeter hanging out maybe dealing with Powell... maybe it was a test by Pop to see how well Boban would do in that kind of situation, can he detect what is going on and help or not? Would it not have been better for him to just stand back close to the rim and then close out if the ball went to Powell? He was just too inadequate.

Yes he also got dunked on repeatedly, and he also struggled with PnR defense, but the absolute lack of Boban hanging close to the paint to help on drives was absolutely the nail in the coffin for me. He struggled on everything defensively.

The other pet peeve with Boban... this one on offense. The offense with the garbage time crew in the 4th was really saved by Ray/Simmons/Kyle (Patty when he was there too), because Boban's screens don't free up anyone. He is a nice passer though, and as always if he manages to catch a ball (and the perimeter players manage to get him the ball too) close to the basket he's absolutely dominant and must get fouled or the ball is going in... so his positives are still his positives, but the more we watch him, his negatives stand out.

Is that something he can improve on? What is the prognosis for Boban? I think the defensive errors you are mentioning are very coachable. He has the size to be a rim protector. I was driving during the game so will need to re-watch, sounds like Powell was pulling him out of the post and he was sticking to his man. Boban is a force when he gets the ball near the rim, you have to foul him or the ball is going in.

[hater]

He's a 12th man. Jeez what the hell do you want for a 12th man

[vander]

He's a 12th man. Jeez what the hell do you want for a 12th man

8th or 9th man obviously

[GSH]

One other thing. The single biggest problem with Boban right now is expectations. Nobody knew anything about him, he had some big numbers in garbage time, and some people thought he was the second coming of young Shaquille. It's pretty messed up to set unrealistic expectations for a guy, and then get pissed when he doesn't live up to them.

He's freaking huge. He seems like a good guy, and a good teammate. And he's fun to watch (most of the time). It's a damn game - enjoy it.

[Chinook]

It's a bigger question than people are giving it credit for. The dude is going to take away a lot of flexibility from the team if they keep him, and I'm not convinced he's going to be a full-time rotation player. His size also lowers his celing. I have heard fans from other teams being willing to give up top-20 picks for Boban. If someone offered that to the Spurs, they have to take it, in my opinion.

[hater]

8th or 9th man obviously

Last big of the bench now that Bonner is dead.

Jeff Ayers replacement. Jeez

[TheGreatYacht]

If Spurs need flexibility, waive Bonner.

[Chinook]

If Spurs need flexibility, waive Bonner.

Talking about flexibility in the summer. The Spurs may lose Duncan and Manu, and have nothing but minimum contracts and drafted players to replace them.

[Chinook]

One other thing. The single biggest problem with Boban right now is expectations. Nobody knew anything about him, he had some big numbers in garbage time, and some people thought he was the second coming of young Shaquille. It's pretty messed up to set unrealistic expectations for a guy, and then get pissed when he doesn't live up to them.

He's freaking huge. He seems like a good guy, and a good teammate. And he's fun to watch (most of the time). It's a damn game - enjoy it.

It's about money as much as it's about skill. If Boban didn't have very good games and the Spurs could re-sign him using a non-Bird or the LLE, that would be one thing. But the team may have to use the full MLE on him next year, and that's WAY too much on a 28-year-old prospect.

[Mr. Body]

You people ar insane.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's about money as much as it's about skill. If Boban didn't have very good games and the Spurs could re-sign him using a non-Bird or the LLE, that would be one thing. But the team may have to use the full MLE on him next year, and that's WAY too much on a 28-year-old prospect.

His efficiency stats are awesome -24and 15 per36- and he is obviously getting better on offense, defense, and the board. He did not have training camp because of the bone bruise and is still performing at a high level. He is far and away better than Splitter or Baynes in their first years here.

Nice blanket dismissal because of age but a 3 or 4 year deal would not be prohibitive particularly with how the team handles age and prefers veterans. He is one of the top C prospects in the league.

[GSH]

It's a bigger question than people are giving it credit for. The dude is going to take away a lot of flexibility from the team if they keep him, and I'm not convinced he's going to be a full-time rotation player. His size also lowers his celing. I have heard fans from other teams being willing to give up top-20 picks for Boban. If someone offered that to the Spurs, they have to take it, in my opinion.


Fans say a lot of stuff. If any TEAMS are willing to give up a top-20 pick for him? No question. Big difference between that, and questioning whether he's a "keeper".

I watched him play the last couple of years, and I was calling for the Spurs to try and sign him in the summer, before (nearly) anyone here even knew the name. So I'm sort of biased to believe that he's good/smart enough to be a legit NBA center. I think he could be Gortat good, which is no small thing. But you're right about his age. He has to progress quickly, and he still would have limited years to be at the top of his game.

Damn, I'd love to think somebody would actually give up a top-20 pick. The way the Spurs evaluate players? That kind of talent infusion would be huge. I like Boban a lot, but I'd take that deal and never look back.

[Yuixafun]

He needs to set picks with purpose and context.

Use it as a change of pace in the moment that ripples outward affect, be more dynamic with it... not just empty flat moves for the sake.

He's too stilted with it, people are already rerouting, as he finishes getting set, so it's like giving the other player a free move in chess.

But damn that pick and pop, or pick pop abort to make a pass.. And then roll ready for a return pass.... If he could ever reach that level, but he has the tools.

Add that with how Kawhi attacks and how mills and green stretch the court, and Lma in in space in the middle... Boban could pummel one side of the defense. Parker will have so many openings to drive.

They just got to bring together so it's back to just Summertime Play.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I'd say that boban in 4 months showed more than Anderson in two years...

Boban an is a keeper a dud with his size and skills at this age... You keep it and it's a no brainer

Freudian slip?

[skulls138]

Boban has been schooled lately. Have to give him a chance to make an adjustment...if its in him.

[SAGirl]

I think the defensive errors you are mentioning are very coachable. He has the size to be a rim protector. I was driving during the game so will need to re-watch, sounds like Powell was pulling him out of the post and he was sticking to his man. Boban is a force when he gets the ball near the rim, you have to foul him or the ball is going in.
Most of the sequences he was not by the rim. Really most of the time he was very far out, completely out of position to help. The few times he got to the rim to contest, he was involved in the play, usually defending a PnR, and he was late, got a few dunks on him. He struggled in general defensively in every aspect.
______________

By the way I started a thread to discuss a legitimate concern regarding his potential defensively and ceiling with the team.. It is not a hate thread. Jesus! You want to start a conversation about a player and it's perceived as a hate thread! A more appropriate question would have been how do young see him ending up, what do you perceive as his potential role if he were to remain with the team. He could be overpaid for his role with us.

[steeledl]

Most of the sequences he was not by the rim. Really most of the time he was very far out, completely out of position to help. The few times he got to the rim to contest, he was involved in the play, usually defending a PnR, and he was late, got a few dunks on him. He struggled in general defensively in every aspect.
______________

By the way I started a thread to discuss a legitimate concern regarding his potential defensively and ceiling with the team.. It is not a hate thread. Jesus! You want to start a conversation about a player and it's perceived as a hate thread! A more appropriate question would have been how do young see him ending up, what do you perceive as his potential role if he were to remain with the team. He could be overpaid for his role with us.


You are on point with your analysis of his limitations. I pretty much suspected he would have these problems from day one but then he swooned me against D league competition.

my first guess was correct though...... He is a huge liability on defense against real NBA competition and doesn't have the tools to change it. 3rd center and nothing more .

[SouthernFried]

I remember watching his first couple of games. He got some blocks, Deflected balls, I think even a steal or 2. I was liking it. Then he became a dunking machine. Now he's shown some passing and soft touch shots. I haven't seen the Defensive stuff since those first couple of games, and he seems to have been abused a little defensively. So, I dunno what's going on with him and where he can be used. I too prolly got my expectations up for him more than I shoulda.

It's still fun to see him come in during blowouts... :lol And, if anyone can teach someone to play good D without a lot of speed and jumping ability...that man would be Tim Duncan :)

[SAGirl]

I remember watching his first couple of games. He got some blocks, Deflected balls, I think even a steal or 2. I was liking it. Then he became a dunking machine. Now he's shown some passing and soft touch shots. I haven't seen the Defensive stuff since those first couple of games, and he seems to have been abused a little defensively. So, I dunno what's going on with him and where he can be used. I too prolly got my expectations up for him more than I shoulda.

It's still fun to see him come in during blowouts... :lol
That is why I was hyped. If he's in the right spot he does make things difficult. In a half court offense game he's a beast. He has had some good enough games defensively when you consider his lack if experience, and it made me very hopeful that he can adapt, but he's regressed. Particularly in an uptempo game he ends up having to pick up perimeter players. And defending Powell and stretch Bigs is an impossibility for him. He struggled against Dallas last game too, but this game it was more noticeable how often he was out of position.

At least he's a situational big that you have to play with veterans that can cover for him. I am hoping for better games from him, but I guess I can see now why he hasn't played much since Timmy got injured. We have played too many perimeter oriented teams for him to be viable.

[cjw]

I wonder how much of Boban's defensive shortcomings are a result of the lineups he's played with. If he had the luxury of teaming up with Green-Kawhi-Duncan or Aldridge, would things be vastly different?

[Chinook]

His efficiency stats are awesome -24and 15 per36- and he is obviously getting better on offense, defense, and the board. He did not have training camp because of the bone bruise and is still performing at a high level. He is far and away better than Splitter or Baynes in their first years here.

Nice blanket dismissal because of age but a 3 or 4 year deal would not be prohibitive particularly with how the team handles age and prefers veterans. He is one of the top C prospects in the league.

Save your ageist arguments for the AARP. It's a big deal that the team may have to give him $4 Million a year to "develop" when his age and potential health concerns mean that he is likely near his peak. As I said in the post you quoted, the Spurs may well have only the MLE to patch up the holes from Tim and Manu leaving, so giving that money for a prospect isn't that great.

His numbers being great is why he has trade value. Qualitatively, he's not as good as his stats suggest. But I'm not concerned with having him this year. I am concerned about him being able to be a rotation player going forward. And his performance falling off when he's in a legit rotation doesn't help his case much.

[lilbthebasedgod]

He just can't be expected to cover stretch bigs and he switched on guards last night which was a terrible idea

[Chinook]

If the Spurs had given him $3M/2, I wouldn't be thinking about moving him now. The $1.2M/1 deal is very troublesome.

[sananspursfan21]

He's still a rookie and getting inconsistent playing time...expecting him to consistently play well every time he goes out there is unrealistic at this point.

He's shown a ton of promise so far. I don't agree with the people who think he'll end up starting, but I can see him being a ~20 mpg guy who is very productive in limited minutes.

Dis tbh

[jeebus]

Rookie season. Can't judge a player in a rookie season getting very uneven playing time; should find out next season. He could end up being a real piece of shit like Dogshit Errors or Slow FuckFace Anderson, or could turn into a decent spot player for the regular season like Banes or Simmons to give older guys a rest.

[SAGirl]

I think your point Chinook about his pay is really the crux. He's not comparable in situation to Anderson who is 22 and in a rookie scale deal with two more years after this one to develop if the Spurs so wish. He's also not in the spot J.Simms is who has been in the rotation and keeps getting better with tantalizing athleticism and defensive potential + he's on a cheap two year min contract, perfect for a development prospect. Boban will get paid in the summer bc the rising cap will have many teams throwing out money and we will need a defensive big. Besides Tmmy being 40, (maybe he doesn't retire, but you will have to really restrict his playing time) D.West will be 36, 37?, then Diaw 34? We need a younger big that can give you rotation minutes and play defense.

[GSH]

my first guess was correct though...... He is a huge liability on defense against real NBA competition and doesn't have the tools to change it. 3rd center and nothing more .


Doesn't have the tools to change? Seriously? What the fuck do you know about his "tools"? You do realize that he's played a grand total of 270 minutes? (That's less than Rasuel Butler has played, and we all feel like we've barely seen him.) After 270 minutes, watching on television, you've been able to determine that he doesn't have the tools to change? You really should be an NBA scout.

BTW - his DRTG is 92, which is the best on the team. Yeah, he hasn't been in against starters. But he's been in against the same opponents that the rest of the bench guys have been playing against. And none of them have a 92 DRTG. Your "first guess" was just that... a fucking guess.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Save your ageist arguments for the AARP. It's a big deal that the team may have to give him $4 Million a year to "develop" when his age and potential health concerns mean that he is likely near his peak. As I said in the post you quoted, the Spurs may well have only the MLE to patch up the holes from Tim and Manu leaving, so giving that money for a prospect isn't that great.

His numbers being great is why he has trade value. Qualitatively, he's not as good as his stats suggest. But I'm not concerned with having him this year. I am concerned about him being able to be a rotation player going forward. And his performance falling off when he's in a legit rotation doesn't help his case much.

Comparing him to the typical US prospect when the European progression is obviously different is fun particularly in this particular instance. Your knowledge of statistics is basically arithmetic.

Qualitatively I have never seen you talk about basketball as it's played on the court. Instead we get these dressed up opinions presented as fact.

You dropped my argument about similar prospects who came over like Baynes and Splitter both of whom he is starting out better than.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are on point with your analysis of his limitations. I pretty much suspected he would have these problems from day one but then he swooned me against D league competition.

my first guess was correct though...... He is a huge liability on defense against real NBA competition and doesn't have the tools to change it. 3rd center and nothing more .

He can run the floor and he knows how to use his length to advantage. He is adjusting to athletic guards and the Spurs style of not swiping at ball fakes and shots but he is also getting better. Outside of Duncan he is the best rim protector we have. You don't want to hedge on pnr but he can play ICE just fine with the aforementioned length advantage.

He is a well rounded center prospect.

[Kawhitstorm]

Is that something he can improve on? What is the prognosis for Boban?

There is no need to critique garbage time PnR defense b/c the other players aren't doing their jobs & Pop isn't calling defensive set so they are just out there freestyling. Boban's job is to score a bucket for each point he concedes & not let the 3rd stringers eat into the 20 pt cushions, he's one of the main reasons for the historic point differential.:lol

[steeledl]

Doesn't have the tools to change? Seriously? What the fuck do you know about his "tools"? You do realize that he's played a grand total of 270 minutes? (That's less than Rasuel Butler has played, and we all feel like we've barely seen him.) After 270 minutes, watching on television, you've been able to determine that he doesn't have the tools to change? You really should be an NBA scout.

BTW - his DRTG is 92, which is the best on the team. Yeah, he hasn't been in against starters. But he's been in against the same opponents that the rest of the bench guys have been playing against. And none of them have a 92 DRTG. Your "first guess" was just that... a fucking guess.

He is obviously an NBA player...... But the Spurs have much higher standards and expectations defensively than he can ever become. You can't teach what he doesn't have ..... But go on and shit out DRtg against garbage competition .


the league has changed and it is unforgiving of slow big men.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He is obviously an NBA player...... But the Spurs have much higher standards and expectations defensively than he can ever become. You can't teach what he doesn't have ..... But go on and shit out DRtg against garbage competition .


the league has changed and it is unforgiving of slow big men.

You still have yet to say what he doesn't have. Repeating yourself like an idiot is fun I guess.

[ceperez]

I share the concern about his help defense.

[Ditty]

I think he will be fine. I've noticed also that his defense doesn't look as effective as it was earlier in the season. He seems a little slower also recently (dealing with some type of injury?) I think he can be a nice rotational player in the league for the right price when he continues getting comfortable with the NBA speed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm thinking last night Dallas penetrators Felton and Parsons getting into the lane, Boban rotating, and shots getting blocked or desperation scoop shot rainbows. He is still routinely beating his opponent down the floor on both ends.

About the only thing I don't like him doing is switching on pnr but outside of Bosh I can think of very few NBA 5's that can pull that off. It's why for example we zone up with ICE with Duncan.

This is what I am talking about when I say speaking to basketball as its played on the court. It's like you (guys) don't even watch the game.

[steeledl]

You still have yet to say what he doesn't have. Repeating yourself like an idiot is fun I guess.

The last sentence should get you started in figuring it out.......... If you can't figure out the rest by simply watching games then you should stop, tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

It really depends. He can be a valuable of the guy bench..

Its all about the money. Just like cojo or belli..its about the money

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The last sentence should get you started in figuring it out.......... If you can't figure out the rest by simply watching games then you should stop, tbh.

Saying the league isn't forgiving is not discussing how the game is actually played. It's a gross generalization that appeals to emotion and not sense. Before that you bring up drtg which furthers my point. Your problem is that I understand statistical evidence and how the game is played.

Marc Gasol is about as athletic as Boban and he was 1st team all-nba last season. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

[SAGirl]

There is no need to critique garbage time PnR defense b/c the other players aren't doing their jobs & Pop isn't calling defensive set so they are just out there freestyling. Boban's job is to score a bucket for each point he concedes & not let the 3rd stringers eat into the 20 pt cushions, he's one of the main reasons for the historic point differential.:lol
I disagree with that. I think Pop expects everyone to work on their games in garbage time, specially because in this crew there are talented rotational players being developed who would have really played more minutes if not for our deep bench. But I will concede that it is tough to get too much from the 4th Q alone.

I do hope Boban is a keeper. I have been in his camp, his church, temple and congregation. I just have started to temper my expectations bc he is out of position a lot. Frankly I would not have him way out in the perimeter guarding anyone, just let him give everyone space, and hang back. TD is the best for training Boban, bc he's not as mobile himself either, but TD is uncanny making super quick reads, and anticipating. You can't surprise TD, he has an awareness of those around him, and he's vocal. Obviously Boban is not on that level, so his lack of ability to recover into plays or help in a timely fashion is trouble.

[steeledl]

Marc Gasol is about as athletic as Boban and he was 1st team all-nba last season. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.



Wut.................... Typical unreasonable Spurs fan. You see the world black and silver. That's okay it just leads to outlandish positive points of view .

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wut.................... Typical unreasonable Spurs fan. You see the world black and silver. That's okay it just leads to outlandish positive points of view .

And again he doesn't address any actual argument.

Marc Gasol the similarly sized C for the Memphis Grizzlie is the incumbent 1st team All-NBA C. Boban has similar athleticism in terms of speed, quickness, and strength. You are claiming that he is missing something and you cannot articulate anything other than insipid unfounded generalizations.

[Chinook]

Comparing him to the typical US prospect when the European progression is obviously different is fun particularly in this particular instance. Your knowledge of statistics is basically arithmetic

This is an example of a pair of empty sentences. They aren't asserting anything, and they provide no support.


Qualitatively I have never seen you talk about basketball as it's played on the court. Instead we get these dressed up opinions presented as fact.

Pretty empty here. Your attack is that I don't lead all of my opinions with "In my opinion,". That's just a stupid critique. I don't remember the last time you did that to your opinions, so I don't see why you want to mention when others don't do it.


You dropped my argument about similar prospects who came over like Baynes and Splitter both of whom he is starting out better than.

Lol at "You dropped my argument," like this is a high-school debate. First, that's clearly just an opinion, and it's not even coded as such. Secondly, he's not better than Splitter was his first year, nor is he better than Splitter was at 27. He's probably a better scorer (note, this is my opinion), and he has better stats. But he's not as mobile, and he also doesn't cut as well on PnR. So right now, Boban's slowing down the offense. And I don't think it's simply familiarity. He's not going to get faster or more agile. As he gets better, the league will adjust to defending him. So I'm not all that keen to project him as being significantly improved this time next year.

I can't believe you tried to push per-36 stats for a garbage-time player as though they aren't deeply flawed. That's completely disingenuous and doesn't warrant further comment.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is an example of a pair of empty sentences. They aren't asserting anything, and they provide no support.



Pretty empty here. Your attack is that I don't lead all of my opinions with "In my opinion,". That's just a stupid critique. I don't remember the last time you did that to your opinions, so I don't see why you want to mention when others don't do it.



Lol at "You dropped my argument," like this is a high-school debate. First, that's clearly just an opinion, and it's not even coded as such. Secondly, he's not better than Splitter was his first year, nor is he better than Splitter was at 27. He's probably a better scorer (note, this is my opinion), and he has better stats. But he's not as mobile, and he also doesn't cut as well on PnR. So right now, Boban's slowing down the offense. And I don't think it's simply familiarity. He's not going to get faster or more agile. As he gets better, the league will adjust to defending him. So I'm not all that keen to project him as being significantly improved this time next year.

I can't believe you tried to push per-36 stats for a garbage-time player as though they aren't deeply flawed. That's completely disingenuous and doesn't warrant further comment.

:lol I support my opinions with facts. You just grandstand and wave your hands over generalizations.

Give one credible metric for your claims on his foot speed. I have watched him beat opposing big men down the court from moment he signed on.

He has an issue with timing, angles, spacing, and the like. He has the bone bruise in autumn and could not participate in TC practices so that makes sense. When he first started playing they only ran the basic motion with him on the court and he would fumble around between the slot and high post as the ball swung around. He has gotten better in that set and they started running horns with him as well as other looks.

Of course the league will adjust as will Boban. You have no idea what those adjustments will be so it's amusing that you would claim certainty. This is exactly what I am talking about. You can try your "I know you are but what I am" routine all you like. You still use half-assed statistical analysis, gratuitous generalizations and cannot talk about how the game is played on the floor.

As for the per 36, of course his efficiency will go down but its sky high as it is. I'm not going to say that he is really a 24/15 guy but even 10/7 guys are a scarcity in this league.

[T Park]

And again he doesn't address any actual argument.

Marc Gasol the similarly sized C for the Memphis Grizzlie is the incumbent 1st team All-NBA C. Boban has similar athleticism in terms of speed, quickness, and strength. You are claiming that he is missing something and you cannot articulate anything other than insipid unfounded generalizations.


Going to respectfully disagree......

[Brian Windhorst]

Is he good enough to be your 5th big? High probability.

Is he good enough to mold your offense (spam Boban post ups) and defense (PnR coverage) around him in a second unit? Low-moderate probablility.

Is he good enough when you aren't molding your offense and defense around him to be your backup C? Moderate probability.

My guess is that Pop is confident in the first, dubious about the second, and trying to figure out the third.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And the notion that players that come over from Europe are going to progress differently than typical prospects is not empty. Your blanket dismissal certainly is.

We have two empirical examples of what i am talking aobut within the Spurs organization in Splitter and Baynes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Going to respectfully disagree......

With what?

[steeledl]

And again he doesn't address any actual argument.

Marc Gasol the similarly sized C for the Memphis Grizzlie is the incumbent 1st team All-NBA C. Boban has similar athleticism in terms of speed, quickness, and strength. You are claiming that he is missing something and you cannot articulate anything other than insipid unfounded generalizations.

you make no argument . You are a moron who's basis an argument on faulty assumptions

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you make no argument . You are a moron who's basis an argument on faulty assumptions

word of the day: irony

[steeledl]

Lol this niggas hopeless if he thinks "foot speed", in this instance, means sprinting down the court. This dude looks like his feet have bricks weighing him down when he trys to move from side to side, guard the pick and roll, or get to spots defensively...... Hints constantly getting put on posters.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lol this niggas hopeless if he thinks "foot speed", in this instance, means sprinting down the court. This dude looks like his feet have bricks weighing him down when he trys to move from side to side, guard the pick and roll, or get to spots defensively...... Hints constantly getting put on posters.

nice strawman.

He's been asked to switch on pnr and had issues. I already addressed this simpleton. Do you need me to quote it or do you think you can figure it out on your own?

[skulls138]

He started the season looking like another premier find by RC Buford. Then he started to get dunked on, especially by other eastern european players ironically. Now he should be allowed the time to go back to the drawing board and adjust. Could be that his early success made him too big for his britches and thought it was going to be easier than it really was. Could be watching tape of him exposed his weakness. Im going to wait to see if he readjusts before I make up my mind. If I had to I would say his offense is going to be there but his defense may only be good in certain situations as in centers who only play down low.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

So OP is concerned with Boban who had 7pts, 7reb on 2-3 shooting, but not fathead who laid another egg and ended up with an impressive 1-5 shooting performance?
Would you put down your wife if she played in the WNBA and only shot 1-5? No.........you'd be ecstatic about the one she made and would make sure everyone else under the sun heard about everything else she did right. Let's get some perspective here.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He started the season looking like another premier find by RC Buford. Then he started to get dunked on, especially by other eastern european players ironically. Now he should be allowed the time to go back to the drawing board and adjust. Could be that his early success made him too big for his britches and thought it was going to be easier than it really was. Could be watching tape of him exposed his weakness. Im going to wait to see if he readjusts before I make up my mind. If I had to I would say his offense is going to be there but his defense may only be good in certain situations as in centers who only play down low.

I actually think it's amusing how hard the opposition goes at him. They act like they accomplished something when they do it, that's for sure.

[T Park]

He started the season looking like another premier find by RC Buford. Then he started to get dunked on, especially by other eastern european players ironically. Now he should be allowed the time to go back to the drawing board and adjust. Could be that his early success made him too big for his britches and thought it was going to be easier than it really was. Could be watching tape of him exposed his weakness. Im going to wait to see if he readjusts before I make up my mind. If I had to I would say his offense is going to be there but his defense may only be good in certain situations as in centers who only play down low.


Marjanovic doesn't seem to be the type that gets a big head. None on the team do.

[Lerojo]

He's definitely a keeper, unless somebody overpays for him.

[T Park]

With what?

That Marjanovic and Gasol are the same athletically or the same anything. They're just not.

[BD24]

So with Kyle for SAgirl it has been "he just needs more time" . Halfway through the season though she wants to question if Boban is really a keeper. Maybe we wait until he at least gets a full season under his belt to make stupid threads like this.

[steeledl]

nice strawman.

He'been asked to switch on pnr and had issues. I already addressed this simpleton. Do you need me to quote it or do you think you can figure it out on your own?

He has tried to play pnr switching and without switching..... He is shitty at both. Also , he can't guard bigs with quickness or ability to stretch the floor.


but hey..... If we play Roy Hibbert 82 games a year we might really have something .

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That Marjanovic and Gasol are the same athletically or the same anything. They're just not.

I said similar. I'm not saying skilled. Gasol looks high repped while Boban looks lost.

I think Gasol is a little quicker while Marjanovic runs better and is bigger/stronger. I'm interested to see what Boban looks like when he looks high repped.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He has tried to play pnr switching and without switching..... He is shitty at both. Also , he can't guard bigs with quickness or ability to stretch the floor.


but hey..... If we play Roy Hibbert 82 games a year we might really have something .

He has yet to play it as ICE. Pop has been switching everything mindlessly outside of 2 quarters of zone for most of the year.

Obviously, he is a situational player and has a lot to prove before he can play small ball 5 but there is still a place in the league for players like that. He only has to be better than bench bigs to merit a place in the league.

[steeledl]

He has yet to play it as ICE. Pop has been switching everything mindlessly outside of 2 quarters of zone for most of the year.

Obviously, he is a situational player and has a lot to prove before he can play small ball 5 but there is still a place in the league for players like that. He only has to be better than bench bigs to merit a place in the league.


I think if you read through my post I essentially said he is a situational big and belongs in the NBA as such. Glad we are in agreement .

Once again, not the type of guy we would want to rely on as your 2nd center though.

[SAGirl]

So with Kyle for SAgirl it has been "he just needs more time" . Halfway through the season though she wants to question if Boban is really a keeper. Maybe we wait until he at least gets a full season under his belt to make stupid threads like this.
You want to sideline this discussion when plenty has been discussed about KA. I am talking about Boban.
If you must go there, KA has played real minutes in close/contested games. He's 22 and in a cheap contract.
Boban has not played many real minutes at all in close/contested games, and there is a reason. When he's played lately he's seemed inadequate for fast paced teams or teams that are perimeter oriented. He's 27 and in a 1 year contract. You have to decide how much development improvement he will make when he's 28 and on, and how much to pay him. He took the 1 year contract bc he wants to get paid. He would have made more in Europe is my understanding anyways. He's not that young and may have a limited shelf life... so if I am his agent, he needs to cash in on his boon pronto.

it is a legit question on its own. (KA and Simmons are in different contracts and development paths obviously)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think if you read through my post I essentially said he is a situational big and belongs in the NBA as such. Glad we are in agreement .

Once again, not the type of guy we would want to rely on as your 2nd center though.

You're saying that is his ceiling. I am saying he is already there. Nuance is tough.

You cannot ever address when I talk about how the game is actually played even still. This is boring. Ciao.

[tmtcsc]

I said similar. I'm not saying skilled. Gasol looks high repped while Boban looks lost.

I think Gasol is a little quicker while Marjanovic runs better and is bigger/stronger. I'm interested to see what Boban looks like when he looks high repped.

They are not similar in any fashion whatsoever except that they both played in Europe, play Center in the NBA and shoot a decent FT%. Although Boban is 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Marc Gasol, the Spanish center is clearly stronger, more athletic and much more mobile. He also has better court awareness. How many times have you seen someone just smack or grab the ball out of Gasol's hands?

[steeledl]

You're saying that is his ceiling. I am saying he is already there. Nuance is tough.

You cannot ever address when I talk about how the game is actually played even still. This is boring. Ciao.


:lmaoBeing a player fan of a 11th man . Shitty takes don't warrant thoughtful responses . Also, how defensive you get of your bad takes on a message board..... Also sad.

[steeledl]

They are not similar in any fashion whatsoever except that they both played in Europe, play Center in the NBA and shoot a decent FT%. Although Boban is 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Marc Gasol, the Spanish center is clearly stronger, more athletic and much more mobile. He also has better court awareness. How many times have you seen someone just smack or grab the ball out of Gasol's hands?


Boban might be physically stronger but obviously doesn't play with the strength gasol does. Otherwise spot on . This will all change with reps though :sleep

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They are not similar in any fashion whatsoever except that they both played in Europe, play Center in the NBA and shoot a decent FT%. Although Boban is 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Marc Gasol, the Spanish center is clearly stronger, more athletic and much more mobile. He also has better court awareness. How many times have you seen someone just smack or grab the ball out of Gasol's hands?

:lol All that and your only empirical comment is about his hands. That is hand eye coordination and Boban adjusting to a new technique. Watch him rebound before reaching to the hoop as opposed to how he tries to tip the ball to himself now.

Boban outweighs him by 25 lbs only has 6% body fat and youre certain he's stronger? Note my sig.

I personally find it difficult to tell how quick Boban is because he is not comfortable in his technique yet. They keep on trying him in new sets like horns and he looks lost. His rotations are hesitant particularly when its time to help the helper and the like.

I have no doubt that he runs similarly as again he beats smaller guys down the court on the regular. Then of course there is his stamina which is surprising for a man his size. I just remember Baynes never being able to play for long stretches at a time.

[024]

Boban is a decent bench big and currently cheap so yeah keep him as long as the price is right. Spurs need a good rim protector to pair with Aldridge in the starting lineup after Duncan retires though. Boban cannot start next to Aldridge.

I'll turn back the debate to Anderson. Dude still doesn't look like an NBA player to me. He's kind of a jack of all trades, master of no skills good enough for the NBA.

[TrainOfThought5]

He plays like a rookie. Imagine that.

[boutons_deux]

he needs lots of work, lots more smarts and aggression. gonna need a lot of work this summer

[SAGirl]

Boban tonight with a -7. He was with the best defensive guys, Kawhi, Simmons, Aldridge. He played with energy, was running up and down, and got on the boards. Definitely a better game than the Dallas one, however, everyone else had to cover up for him a lot, and there were still shots right at the rim despite his presence... in 9 minutes of play a -7.

[SpurPadre]

He plays like a rookie. Imagine that.

Problem is that for some reason people thought he would be as polished as Sabonis was when he came into the league.

[tholdren]

Boban is going through what pretty much all rookie big men in the NBA go through. It's an adjustment. Go back and look at someone like Marcin Gortat's first year or two in the NBA. Better still, go back and look at all the people here who screamed about how bad Splitter was in his first year or two. Now a bunch of people cry about trading him. The low blocks are a fucking war zone in the NBA. Boban was a damned solid player in Europe, just like Splitter was. And he'll adjust, just like Splitter did.

He's huge, and clogs the lane more than nearly anyone I've ever seen. He runs the floor pretty damn good, for his size. He has pretty quick hands, unlike a lot of lumbering giants (which he's not). He's smart, and he's always paying attention to try and learn. And he can shoot the ball.

Shit... why wouldn't that be a keeper?

The ONLY two concerns I have is that he might wind up getting too much money for his current state of development. And I don't understand how someone can play as long as he has, and seemingly not have any understanding of the PnR. He'll learn the PnR. Hopefully he'll have realistic money expectations. I think he likes it here.

Splitter blows

[TrainOfThought5]

Problem is that for some reason people thought he would be as polished as Sabonis was when he came into the league.

The complexities of the Spurs system, and his missed TC time and its really clear that Boban isnt nearly as comfortable as he should be. Yes he definitely has limitations, but his timing, reaction speed, and comfort will all improve with reps and experience. Im confident Boban will improve beyond what he is right now. To believe anything else is just silly.

[Chinook]

Problem is that for some reason people thought he would be as polished as Sabonis was when he came into the league.

Gotta love a strawman

[SpurPadre]

Gotta love a strawman

No, some here actually made that very comparison.

[Chinook]

No, some here actually made those very comparisons.

That's still a strawman. It's not those people who are critical of him now.

[SpurPadre]

That's still a strawman. It's not those people who are critical of him now.

How do you know that exactly?

[MultiTroll]

Boban could have been passed to much more tonight.
Our offense led by Kahwbme Leonard had so many possessions with 0 or 1 pass only.
Virtually no attempt to get the ball into Boban who looked ready to work the Lakers centers.

[Pauleta14]

Boban tonight with a -7. He was with the best defensive guys, Kawhi, Simmons, Aldridge. He played with energy, was running up and down, and got on the boards. Definitely a better game than the Dallas one, however, everyone else had to cover up for him a lot, and there were still shots right at the rim despite his presence... in 9 minutes of play a -7.

Don't forget he is a rookie, 1st time he plays that many games, travels that much...

He is obviously is a slump compare to his start, but don't draw any conclusions that quickly, he needs to learn that's all.

We'll probably won't know about his real upside before next year anyway..

[Chinook]

How do you know that exactly?

Because I'm one of the people who is dubious, as is SAG, who only has eyes for Anderson. Then you have guys like TGY who hate on almost every player.

A lot of people didn't think Boban would come in and be as good as he is. There was almost no one who thought he was going to be Sabonis until after the Philly game. And that was a small minority, and those people are the ones rolling their eyes at this thread.

I'm in the camp that Boban is good in his role but is going to be paid too much to stay in it. I'm wary of him having a bigger role, but the way things are shaping up, he may actually end up starting next season if he's brought back. I also think he's not really that important to this year's run. So if I can get a good asset for him and pick up a defensive center, I'd probably do it.

[SAGirl]

Don't forget he is a rookie, 1st time he plays that many games, travels that much...

He is obviously is a slump compare to his start, but don't draw any conclusions that quickly, he needs to learn that's all.

We'll probably won't know about his real upside before next year anyway..
:toast
I honestly don't want to come across as too critical, the main reason I have been is really his contract situation and the kind of role he could potentially fulfill bc we need a defensive big. In real games he hasn't been as good defensively as I thought he could be. A lot of it is awareness.

Its possible we can't get anyone better regardless (defensively) over the summer and developing Boban is our best chance. Id rather have him than say an Ayers type guy-an athletic big with no skill whatsoever who is also undersized... so all things considered... all hail the Boban.

[SAGirl]

Because I'm one of the people who is dubious, as is SAG, who only has eyes for Anderson. Then you have guys like TGY who hate on almost every player.

A lot of people didn't think Boban would come in and be as good as he is. There was almost no one who thought he was going to be Sabonis until after the Philly game. And that was a small minority, and those people are the ones rolling their eyes at this thread.

I'm in the camp that Boban is good in his role but is going to be paid too much to stay in it. I'm wary of him having a bigger role, but the way things are shaping up, he may actually end up starting next season if he's brought back. I also think he's not really that important to this year's run. So if I can get a good asset for him and pick up a defensive center, I'd probably do it.
Completely rational explanation Chinook. I have liked so far all our new players, but I am an Anderson fan and do cut him more slack than anybody else.

I was really hyped up about Boban though... there are threads where I was chatting up his defensive potential... you remember?

I just came crashing down on that and for me it's not even speed or what not (would that concern an Anderson fan? no!), it's really his awareness. He doesn't know at times where he should be etc. He's new though. I get the point of those who say, second year he will be better.

Also I agree he will get paid. He is pretty unique, has great stats and at his age, he can't afford discount deals. The discount deal was this season, the one year he was developing. If we resign him, he will get paid and if TD retires he will be it. Even if TD doesn't retire, I imagine next season TD's role has to be reduced to preserve his knees.

[Cklbmk]

I have to see his defense with Aldridge more but I still like him a lot beyond this year

[BD24]

Boban tonight with a -7. He was with the best defensive guys, Kawhi, Simmons, Aldridge. He played with energy, was running up and down, and got on the boards. Definitely a better game than the Dallas one, however, everyone else had to cover up for him a lot, and there were still shots right at the rim despite his presence... in 9 minutes of play a -7.
Because +/- is the ultimate stat :rolleyes
Looks like Bon Bon is one of the best Spurs of all time if we want to go that route.

[Harry Callahan]

Guys like Aaron Baynes and Cory Joseph needed time to become legit NBA players and it took a year or two for them to get acclimated. Boban has some unique skills and attributes. The Spurs can make use of them in the next few years and they will.

[SAGirl]

Because +/- is the ultimate stat :rolleyes
Looks like Bon Bon is one of the best Spurs of all time if we want to go that route.h didn't have a good game. His PnR with Tony was terrible and caused a TO. Tony as terrible too in this game, but Boban doesn't set good screens. He also committed silly fouls. I saw him play with a lot of effort though, but it is difficult to play with him unless you post him up (they did once I think, it was a short stint). In that stretch transition defense was the worst, I noticed all of that in the thread. He got in with a lead and left without it.

[BD24]

h didn't have a good game. His PnR with Tony was terrible and caused a TO. Tony as terrible too in this game, but Boban doesn't set good screens. He also committed silly fouls. I saw him play with a lot of effort though, but it is difficult to play with him unless you post him up (they did once I think, it was a short stint). In that stretch transition defense was the worst, I noticed all of that in the thread. He got in with a lead and left without it.
None of that had to do with the Lakers hitting tough shots and us getting cold on the offensive end. Of course not. Yes Boban has his flaws, but he is a rookie. He is still much better than any end of the bench big we have had in recent years. He isn't obviously playable against certain lineups, but there is alot of bench guys like that. He has shown improvement though as the season has gone on and obviously has his strengths. He is absolutely a keeper as long as the pricetag doesn't get too high. He is just learning how to play with the pace of the NBA game, I imagine by seasons end he will be looking much better and at that point we may have a better idea of what his future will be here.

[From Downtown]

It's not easy for Euro big men to adapt to the NBA,especially if they're already accomplished players overseas
Sure Boban hasn't looked as good as he did at the start of the season,and if we're looking for him to replace Duncan next year I think we're gonna be disappointed
He still has bot lots of talent and different qualities and he's a pretty good player to have to come off the bench,he just needs time to learn and improve...and if other teams offer him a big contract this season and he wants to go then be it...I mean,I'd be a bit disapoointed,but I also know the Spurs can find another valuable big in the draft/in Europe

[steeledl]

Because +/- is the ultimate stat :rolleyes
Looks like Bon Bon is one of the best Spurs of all time if we want to go that route.

he did play terrible. Julius rAndle got easy buckets a few times in his short stretch. Plus his pnr defense was bad per usual. Did you watch the game? +- is t a great stat but you are being dismissive of something your eyes should have corroborated.

[SAGirl]

None of that had to do with the Lakers hitting tough shots and us getting cold on the offensive end. Of course not. Yes Boban has his flaws, but he is a rookie. He is still much better than any end of the bench big we have had in recent years. He isn't obviously playable against certain lineups, but there is alot of bench guys like that. He has shown improvement though as the season has gone on and obviously has his strengths. He is absolutely a keeper as long as the pricetag doesn't get too high. He is just learning how to play with the pace of the NBA game, I imagine by seasons end he will be looking much better and at that point we may have a better idea of what his future will be here.
That is a good point and I almost said as much above. It is concerning he doesn't know how to screen it makes it difficult to play him unless you post him up which limits your offense. I actually didn't like Tony that game and Tony doesn't have know how to play with him. Boban has better chances of getting good shots if you give the ball to Anderson than if you give it to Tony... definitely not all on him. In fact if we had a Drought it was better to go to Boban but they didn't and that is on Tony. It wasn't his worst game though, but he wasn't a positive impact player that game.

[SAGirl]

It's not easy for Euro big men to adapt to the NBA,especially if they're already accomplished players overseas
Sure Boban hasn't looked as good as he did at the start of the season,and if we're looking for him to replace Duncan next year I think we're gonna be disappointed
He still has bot lots of talent and different qualities and he's a pretty good player to have to come off the bench,he just needs time to learn and improve...and if other teams offer him a big contract this season and he wants to go then be it...I mean,I'd be a bit disapoointed,but I also know the Spurs can find another valuable big in the draft/in Europe
That is probably one of the reasons we need a more defensive minded player. Even if we get Timmy, those knees are shaky. We nee someone else. When Boban is in position he has a lot of impact contesting shots. The problem is that he's very often out of position..

[CGD]

Prediction is that the Spurs lose Boban this summer for nothing, and then turn to Hibbert and pray Timmy can help revive his career

[SAGirl]

Prediction is that the Spurs lose Boban this summer for nothing, and then turn to Hibbert and pray Timmy can help revive his career
I do hope that is not the case. I am guessing he will be resigned or return to Europe. If he wasn't going to b resigned exploring a trade should be due diligence.

[skulls138]

Boban is a third stringer right now and for that I think hes exceptional. I dont care about anything beyond TD and Manu leaving, its depressing and frankly too many variables to consider.

[skulls138]

Prediction is that the Spurs lose Boban this summer for nothing, and then turn to Hibbert and pray Timmy can help revive his careerHibbert? Give me a break. Did you not see TP break his ankle? I havent seen many instances of a player losing as much confidence so quickly as Hibbert, if ever.

[CGD]

I do hope that is not the case. I am guessing he will be resigned or return to Europe. If he wasn't going to b resigned exploring a trade should be due diligence.

Not a salary person, but it just seems like the Spurs only have the MLE to use among several folks including Boban, West, and whoever they bring over from abroad. Add that next summer some teams will have stupid amounts of money to spend. Like you say, due diligence on a small trade seems like a no brainier to me.

[SAGirl]

Not a salary person, but it just seems like the Spurs only have the MLE to use among several folks including Boban, West, and whoever they bring over from abroad. Add that next summer some teams will have stupid amounts of money to spend. Like you say, due diligence on a small trade seems like a no brainier to me.
Now you are talking.... his salary is small though. I imagine to get someone worth it he would have to be packaged and the Spurs will not want to trade anyone in the rotation since we are all in for this season.

[BD24]

he did play terrible. Julius rAndle got easy buckets a few times in his short stretch. Plus his pnr defense was bad per usual. Did you watch the game? +- is t a great stat but you are being dismissive of something your eyes should have corroborated.
He didn't play great, but he wasn't awful. He should of never been on Randle to begin with. That is on pop. He should never be guarding very athletic 4's, they are going to eat him up because they can pull him out of the paint and once he is outside there they can destroy him.

[DMC]

Boban is a known quality already. He is what he is. He's not a bad player, he's just not dominant relative to his size on the floor. He plays much smaller than he is, which almost every NBA uber-tall guy has done in the history of the league. The fact that guards score over him, around him, and offensively rebound the ball around him time and again should be alarming to Pop. Sure Boban gets rebounds that he happens to be in the right place to get, but often he's stepping on someone to get there. He's a bull in a China closet.

[DMC]

Prediction is that the Spurs lose Boban this summer for nothing, and then turn to Hibbert and pray Timmy can help revive his career
That's not going to happen, either Hibbert or Timmy.

Spurs need a Manu replacement, an energy guy off the bench. Simmons isn't going to be that guy, I don't think.

Spurs will fall down a few notches when Tim and Manu retire, because even the best on the team don't do what they do as well as they do it.

[TD 21]

It's a bigger question than people are giving it credit for. The dude is going to take away a lot of flexibility from the team if they keep him, and I'm not convinced he's going to be a full-time rotation player. His size also lowers his celing. I have heard fans from other teams being willing to give up top-20 picks for Boban. If someone offered that to the Spurs, they have to take it, in my opinion.

Flexibility for what? Barring a significant injury, Duncan and Ginobili will probably return, in which case Marjanovic replacing West would likely be the extent of alterations to the rotation. Outside of that, the likely 29th pick probably takes the roster spot vacated by West, Bertans replaces Butler and Bonner is probably 50/50.

Though certain match-ups will be an issue, I do see Marjanovic as a rotation player next season and beyond, but as a 15-18 mpg backup. How long he can hold up and how many minutes he can absorb over the long haul, is irrelevant, as he'll probably sign a bridge deal of sorts, along the lines of 2/$10M.

[sasaint]

Flexibility for what? Barring a significant injury, Duncan and Ginobili will probably return, in which case Marjanovic replacing West would likely be the extent of alterations to the rotation. Outside of that, the likely 29th pick probably takes the roster spot vacated by West, Bertans replaces Butler and Bonner is probably 50/50.

Though certain match-ups will be an issue, I do see Marjanovic as a rotation player next season and beyond, but as a 15-18 mpg backup. How long he can hold up and how many minutes he can absorb over the long haul, is irrelevant, as he'll probably sign a bridge deal of sorts, along the lines of 2/$10M.

Your prognostications and mine are 180 degrees apart. I think the "probability" of either Tim or Manu's returning is very low. If Tim does not return, West will become even more valuable for his play, his toughness and his leadership. Marjanovic cannot replace him in any of those respects. I enjoy watching Boban, but I do not see him as a viable replacement for either Tim or West, and I do not see the Spurs paying him $5MM/yr. The probability that Bertans, with his injury history, ever plays in the NBA is very low. Our best pipeline prospect is Cady LaLanne in Austin.

[spurs10]

He didn't play great, but he wasn't awful. He should of never been on Randle to begin with. That is on pop. He should never be guarding very athletic 4's, they are going to eat him up because they can pull him out of the paint and once he is outside there they can destroy him. Well put! Putting Boban on stretch 4's is obviously not a great idea.

[dbestpro]

NBA rules changes has killed the center position.

[Chinook]

Flexibility for what? Barring a significant injury, Duncan and Ginobili will probably return, in which case Marjanovic replacing West would likely be the extent of alterations to the rotation. Outside of that, the likely 29th pick probably takes the roster spot vacated by West, Bertans replaces Butler and Bonner is probably 50/50.

Though certain match-ups will be an issue, I do see Marjanovic as a rotation player next season and beyond, but as a 15-18 mpg backup. How long he can hold up and how many minutes he can absorb over the long haul, is irrelevant, as he'll probably sign a bridge deal of sorts, along the lines of 2/$10M.

You're essentially suggesting a best-case scenario. I don't think it's incredibly likely that Tim or Manu return. It'll be completely dependent on how this season goes. The issue is that the Spurs' cap situation is pretty much identical whether they are in SA next season or not. So they'd have three holes in their rotation with only the MLE, LLE, picks and min contracts to fill them. You can strike the LLE from consideration, as that's going to be essentially the min as it is. They will likely bring over LJC (since he'll actually have unilateral authority over that decision this time) and they'll have their pick. And they're likely to bring in Bertans and/or Milutinov for bodies. But none of those guys will come in a bona fide rotation player.

So you'll have the MLE and min deals. If you ear-mark the MLE for Boban (or split in on Boban and Bertans, as your suggested contract would allow), then you're going to have to rely on a rookie or min guy (in a year where every team has money) to fill a rotation spot. And that's WITH assuming Boban is going to be able to do the part.

I don't even think Boban is a lock to be kept over West myself. If the Greybeards return, the team should jump at keeping West if he continues to play this well into the playoffs. If they don't, then having an experienced vet next to LMA seems like a no-brainer. He could definitely retire and take the choice out of PATFO's hands. But if he wants to come back, I'm inclined to prioritize that.

[will_spurs]

I don't think Boban is that bad, I actually think he's quite good, but he's highly situational. Deep teams like the Spurs can afford to have him right now to exploit mismatches, but that won't necessarily work for other teams, or next year for the Spurs.

Boban won't really the Spurs this year. If he's not part of the Spurs long term plans, then I say showcase him and trade him while his value is high and that there's a novelty premium.

[sasaint]

That's not going to happen, either Hibbert or Timmy.

Spurs need a Manu replacement, an energy guy off the bench. Simmons isn't going to be that guy, I don't think.

Spurs will fall down a few notches when Tim and Manu retire, because even the best on the team don't do what they do as well as they do it.

In reverse order: I expect Tim and Manu are both playing their last season. Consequently I expect the Spurs to drop some next season, but still be a playoff team, obviously.

Unlike you, I do expect Simmons to occupy the Manu role next season, unless he joins the first unit, which might be a possibility. Fans who did not watch him in Summer League do not appreciate how fast he is developing.

But about Hibbert and Timmy, I am not sure I understand your point about "either Hibbert or Timmy." While I do not expect Tim back, it is well known that Timmy has worked with Hibbert in the summer. I expect that Roy will sign a veterans minimum contract next year. If that is so, and if we lose Boban, it seems possible to me that we could sign him. If anybody could get some good usage out of him, it would be Pop and Tim - even if he isn't on the active roster. I'm not advocating our signing Hibbert, just want to understand your point.

[hater]

Yes. Cupcake question. Next question...

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I like Boban, but he lacks 3 important skills, that I don't see him improving on significantly at 28 :

1.Can't shoot
2.Can't defend the PnR a lick
3.Isn't a rim protector

This makes him a situational big in the NBA imo and he wouldn't be worth anything near MLE type money. If the Spurs could re-sign him for cheap then I'd be happy with him as the 5th big again until they bring Milutinov in a couple of years.

[r0drig0lac]

NBA rules changes has killed the center position.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I like Boban, but he lacks 3 important skills, that I don't see him improving on significantly at 28 :

1.Can't shoot
2.Can't defend the PnR a lick
3.Isn't a rim protector

This makes him a situational big in the NBA imo and he wouldn't be worth anything near MLE type money. If the Spurs could re-sign him for cheap then I'd be happy with him as the 5th big again until they bring Milutinov in a couple of years.

1. He can shoot, the Spurs don't run any plays for him that get him in space like LMA and West.

3. He can protect the rim. He is actually decent at that.

2. This is one I agree. He gets caught in no man land too much. He needs to use his size and length to hedge the PnR. He is big enough to, he just doesn't know how to at this point. Once he masters this, he will be a decent defender in this league.

Boban is still learning the Spurs system and the fact he couldn't play for like 2/3 months after signing with the Spurs due to a fractured ankle, put him back a little as well.

This was probably Boban's best defensive game. Washington was killing the Spurs on the PNR that game and Boban actually was the difference in that game. Gortat only had like 2 points after scoring 18 in like 2 1/2 quarters against West and Diaw. Boban was +17 (highest on team) that game and played most against the Wiz starters and 2nd string players. This is what Boban is capable of. He is just not consist at this point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWXRZ-fBkf4

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I like Boban, but he lacks 3 important skills, that I don't see him improving on significantly at 28 :

1.Can't shoot
2.Can't defend the PnR a lick
3.Isn't a rim protector

This makes him a situational big in the NBA imo and he wouldn't be worth anything near MLE type money. If the Spurs could re-sign him for cheap then I'd be happy with him as the 5th big again until they bring Milutinov in a couple of years.

Pop is asking him to guard 4's and switch like everyone else. This is what Pop used to ask Duncan to do before too because its the base of the Spurs defense. Remember Duncan switching onto Hill and getting roached over and again and us losing vs PHX in the first round? That was when they started using ICE, zoning underneath and going over the screen, and voila he could function again.

What strikes me is that Pop is giving him consistent minutes outside of crunchtime and is obviously putting effort into developing him.

1 and 3 are just ignorant. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your not HH on a VPN. Anyone who watches Boban shoot FT can tell 1 is false. As for 3, his only problem is when he sipes he fouls. He made progress in the DAL game where Parsons and FElton who had been finishing on our other guys either over penetrated or dribbled it back out multipole times. I think Boban clogs the lane admirably.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're essentially suggesting a best-case scenario. I don't think it's incredibly likely that Tim or Manu return. It'll be completely dependent on how this season goes. The issue is that the Spurs' cap situation is pretty much identical whether they are in SA next season or not. So they'd have three holes in their rotation with only the MLE, LLE, picks and min contracts to fill them. You can strike the LLE from consideration, as that's going to be essentially the min as it is. They will likely bring over LJC (since he'll actually have unilateral authority over that decision this time) and they'll have their pick. And they're likely to bring in Bertans and/or Milutinov for bodies. But none of those guys will come in a bona fide rotation player.

So you'll have the MLE and min deals. If you ear-mark the MLE for Boban (or split in on Boban and Bertans, as your suggested contract would allow), then you're going to have to rely on a rookie or min guy (in a year where every team has money) to fill a rotation spot. And that's WITH assuming Boban is going to be able to do the part.

I don't even think Boban is a lock to be kept over West myself. If the Greybeards return, the team should jump at keeping West if he continues to play this well into the playoffs. If they don't, then having an experienced vet next to LMA seems like a no-brainer. He could definitely retire and take the choice out of PATFO's hands. But if he wants to come back, I'm inclined to prioritize that.

Milutinov and LJC would get guaranteed rookie deals. Whether or not they are 'bona-fide' -whatever that means- or not is besides the point.

I know that you can go over the cap to sign your rookies so bringing up LJC and Milutinov is gratuitous. Instead of signing Bertans why not insert whoever you want?

All I see is you dreaming up scenarios to exclude Boban trollstyle and further assuming that Boban and the rest can't play. Still haven't seen you talk about basketball as its played on the court or the Spurs remarkable ability to develop players . If 'the greybeards return' then the need for West is less yet you present that as the Spurs should 'jump at (it).' Wishful thinking abounds.

[G-Dawgg]

Is this seriously a concern? Who would you rather have? Dejuan Blair or Jeff Ayres? It could be a lot worse.... Boban is definitely a keeper.

[TD 21]

Your prognostications and mine are 180 degrees apart. I think the "probability" of either Tim or Manu's returning is very low. If Tim does not return, West will become even more valuable for his play, his toughness and his leadership. Marjanovic cannot replace him in any of those respects. I enjoy watching Boban, but I do not see him as a viable replacement for either Tim or West, and I do not see the Spurs paying him $5MM/yr. The probability that Bertans, with his injury history, ever plays in the NBA is very low. Our best pipeline prospect is Cady LaLanne in Austin.

I think the plan was to play the two years, barring a change, be it a significant injury, a precipitous decline, the team drastically under performing, them no longer enjoying it, etc.

Though he's played well, West was always an awkward fit in many ways and because of that, I think both sides came in with the understanding that it would be a one shot deal.

5M is nothing in a league where the average salary is on the verge of being $7M.

There's been constant rumors about Bertans coming over next season and despite the injuries, he's still a superior prospect to LaLanne.



You're essentially suggesting a best-case scenario. I don't think it's incredibly likely that Tim or Manu return. It'll be completely dependent on how this season goes. The issue is that the Spurs' cap situation is pretty much identical whether they are in SA next season or not. So they'd have three holes in their rotation with only the MLE, LLE, picks and min contracts to fill them. You can strike the LLE from consideration, as that's going to be essentially the min as it is. They will likely bring over LJC (since he'll actually have unilateral authority over that decision this time) and they'll have their pick. And they're likely to bring in Bertans and/or Milutinov for bodies. But none of those guys will come in a bona fide rotation player.

So you'll have the MLE and min deals. If you ear-mark the MLE for Boban (or split in on Boban and Bertans, as your suggested contract would allow), then you're going to have to rely on a rookie or min guy (in a year where every team has money) to fill a rotation spot. And that's WITH assuming Boban is going to be able to do the part.

I don't even think Boban is a lock to be kept over West myself. If the Greybeards return, the team should jump at keeping West if he continues to play this well into the playoffs. If they don't, then having an experienced vet next to LMA seems like a no-brainer. He could definitely retire and take the choice out of PATFO's hands. But if he wants to come back, I'm inclined to prioritize that.

Just like last off season, when all the supposed cap experts thought it was virtually impossible to swap Splitter for Aldridge and return the remainder of the top 8.

As I alluded to above, at this point I think it's mainly dependent on a significant injury. If they come out of this season relatively healthy, I think they'll be back.

I'd be shocked if they kept West at the expense of Marjanovic. Despite his strong play, he's still an awkward fit and obviously not a long term solution. Marjanovic could at least be part of it, at a position of need.

In either scenario, I'd expect Marjanovic to be kept. The Spurs have a pristine record of keeping players they want to keep, that want to stay. There's no reason to not believe that to be the case here.

[Chinook]

Just like last off season, when all the supposed cap experts thought it was virtually impossible to swap Splitter for Aldridge and return the remainder of the top 8.

It's actually a bit disingenuous of you to say this, as Splitter was included in the "top eight" in your scenario. I'm not going to post PMs, since the 'P' stands for private, but you should know what you had asked originally. Anyway, "cap experts" weren't wrong that the math didn't add up. The cap ended up being $3 Million higher than it was projected to be. And Duncan took a lot less than he was estimated to take in many other scenarios (some had him taking $8 Million, some higher). All of those things added about $14.5 Million to the team's cap space, which gave them room to get LMA, re-sign Tim and pick up McCallum and Boban.


As I alluded to above, at this point I think it's mainly dependent on a significant injury. If they come out of this season relatively healthy, I think they'll be back.

I hope so, but this hasn't been a good year for them health-wise. I think if they win or get knocked out in the first again, they're done. If even Manu retires, the team is going to have much bigger issues than Boban is going to be able to handle.


I'd be shocked if they kept West at the expense of Marjanovic. Despite his strong play, he's still an awkward fit and obviously not a long term solution. Marjanovic could at least be part of it, at a position of need.

West isn't all that awkward a fit going forward. For one, if Tim leaves, he's sliding into that starting spot like he has this year. Adding Boban or Diaw there instead means there's another post player, and both of them are worse defenders than West. If Tim stays, you still need a competent starter to play next to LMA, and while I think Anderson could be that guy, it's not clear that he'd be that next season, or even if he'd have to replace Manu even if he is good enough.


In either scenario, I'd expect Marjanovic to be kept. The Spurs have a pristine record of keeping players they want to keep, that want to stay. There's no reason to not believe that to be the case here.

I think that's teleological. The Spurs keep who they keep and don't keep who they don't keep. That's all we know. We don't know that they didn't want to keep Splitter or that they didn't want to keep Joseph. Whether Boban is a Spur next year will depend on a lot of factors, the team liking him being only one of those. They'll keep him if they can do so while building the best roster they can next season. They won't if they can't. To me, it's pretty simple. The only questions come from discussing what will make up that roster, and how they can go about facilitating it this season.

[Pauleta14]

:toast
I honestly don't want to come across as too critical, the main reason I have been is really his contract situation and the kind of role he could potentially fulfill bc we need a defensive big. In real games he hasn't been as good defensively as I thought he could be. A lot of it is awareness.

Its possible we can't get anyone better regardless (defensively) over the summer and developing Boban is our best chance. Id rather have him than say an Ayers type guy-an athletic big with no skill whatsoever who is also undersized... so all things considered... all hail the Boban.

Honestly, I don't have especially a lot of hope on Boban, I'm in a "wait and see" situation. Lots of pros and cons for now...

The thing that makes me pessimistic is that I don't think the Spurs coaches are the 1st to explain him/try to change his habits, it might just be too late or impossible at this stage for him. For instance, I still don't get why he keeps his hands so low when keeping them up wouldn't give a chance to his defender sometimes as well as giving an easier option for his teammates.
I also think that he is lucky to play in a selfless system and with selfless players who might make him look better than he really is.

What makes me optimistic is his personality, work ethic, FTs, nice touch despite big hands, integration, Chip England & Chad Forcier and globally the fact that the Spurs have proved their ability to make anybody improve with time.

Then as you note, there might be a contract situation or retirements that lead the team/scouting in another direction, etc. Lots of factors.

Wait and see... :toast

[TD 21]

It's actually a bit disingenuous of you to say this, as Splitter was included in the "top eight" in your scenario. I'm not going to post PMs, since the 'P' stands for private, but you should know what you had asked originally. Anyway, "cap experts" weren't wrong that the math didn't add up. The cap ended up being $3 Million higher than it was projected to be. And Duncan took a lot less than he was estimated to take in many other scenarios (some had him taking $8 Million, some higher). All of those things added about $14.5 Million to the team's cap space, which gave them room to get LMA, re-sign Tim and pick up McCallum and Boban.



I hope so, but this hasn't been a good year for them health-wise. I think if they win or get knocked out in the first again, they're done. If even Manu retires, the team is going to have much bigger issues than Boban is going to be able to handle.



West isn't all that awkward a fit going forward. For one, if Tim leaves, he's sliding into that starting spot like he has this year. Adding Boban or Diaw there instead means there's another post player, and both of them are worse defenders than West. If Tim stays, you still need a competent starter to play next to LMA, and while I think Anderson could be that guy, it's not clear that he'd be that next season, or even if he'd have to replace Manu even if he is good enough.



I think that's teleological. The Spurs keep who they keep and don't keep who they don't keep. That's all we know. We don't know that they didn't want to keep Splitter or that they didn't want to keep Joseph. Whether Boban is a Spur next year will depend on a lot of factors, the team liking him being only one of those. They'll keep him if they can do so while building the best roster they can next season. They won't if they can't. To me, it's pretty simple. The only questions come from discussing what will make up that roster, and how they can go about facilitating it this season.

I wasn't taking a shot at you or this board; it was a general statement. So you're "not going to post PM's, because the 'P' stands for private", yet you have no problem providing details on it. Since there's not much difference in salary between Splitter and Diaw, I viewed them as interchangeable, in that respect. In the end, the "cap experts" were wrong, no matter the reasons.

Ginobili's injury definitely isn't significant, relatively speaking and we don't know enough about Duncan's to say. But yeah, I could see them retiring if they win it all, too.

West was always an awkward fit. He really only fits relatively well alongside Duncan. He's definitely not the answer as a full time starter at this point, particularly alongside a relatively similar player, in Aldridge. Neither can play center full time and Aldridge has made it clear that he doesn't want to. I've said ad nauseam that Splitter will be the eventual Duncan replacement, but if not, they'll find someone of his mold.

Aldridge was a unique case, where they had to sacrifice players they'd otherwise keep to obtain him. Marjanovic won't be a casualty of a significant addition. If they want him and he wants to stay (and there's no reason to think otherwise), they'll make it work.

People have panicked so many times over the years, from Splitter to Green to Diaw to Mills, etc., yet they always find a way to get it done and at a reasonable or better number, no less.

[Chinook]

I wasn't taking a shot at you or this board; it was a general statement. So you're "not going to post PM's, because the 'P' stands for private", yet you have no problem providing details on it. Since there's not much difference in salary between Splitter and Diaw, I viewed them as interchangeable, in that respect. In the end, the "cap experts" were wrong, no matter the reasons.

Again, this is REALLY disingenuous. Splitter AND Diaw were part of the "top eight". You had asked if the Spurs could bring in LMA and add him to that group, not have him swap out and replace anyone. Then others proposed trading Splitter while paying Tim $8 Million. Both of those things would have been impossible. It was never 100 percent impossible to keep the top seven and get LMA, as Tim and Manu could have taken min deals (which would have allowed them to keep Cory, for example). The math ended up being different than the proposed scenarios. People don't have to defend 2+2=4 when it is actually 2+3.


West was always an awkward fit. He really only fits relatively well alongside Duncan. He's definitely not the answer as a full time starter at this point, particularly alongside a relatively similar player, in Aldridge. Neither can play center full time and Aldridge has made it clear that he doesn't want to. I've said ad nauseam that Splitter will be the eventual Duncan replacement, but if not, they'll find someone of his mold.

I think LMA will be a center the same way Tim was for many years. But I also think that West will have his share of tough assignments. He plays well with the starters, and he seems like the perfect bridge player either while someone gets ready or until 2017 when they get a free agent. Right now, he adds more value to the team than Boban, whose upside is theoretical at this point. I don't see him as the starter over West unless he looks a lot better than he has this season.


Aldridge was a unique case, where they had to sacrifice players they'd otherwise keep to obtain him. Marjanovic won't be a casualty of a significant addition. If they want him and he wants to stay (and there's no reason to think otherwise), they'll make it work.

People have panicked so many times over the years, from Splitter to Green to Diaw to Mills, etc., yet they always find a way to get it done and at a reasonable or better number, no less.

This was the first year the team was under the cap since 2003. So they never had to make financial decisions like this. They will be under the cap against soon, likely in 2017, but possibly this summer. They also haven't had a situation like they do with Boban now. They don't normally sign prospects to one-year deals, as they usually have the leverage to get at least a second year out of it. And they haven't been in a situation where they'll be trying to patch up a rotation in the wake of losing two future HoFers. So just like with LMA, sacrifices are going to have to be made.

[dabom]

West and LMA is a fucking defensive mess. :lmao

Sorry dude. Not gonna be realistic. LMA and a Center is realistic. West will always be a bench player. 100%

Im going to bump your shitty take Chinook next season. :lol

[ceperez]

I disagree with that. I think Pop expects everyone to work on their games in garbage time, specially because in this crew there are talented rotational players being developed who would have really played more minutes if not for our deep bench. But I will concede that it is tough to get too much from the 4th Q alone.

I do hope Boban is a keeper. I have been in his camp, his church, temple and congregation. I just have started to temper my expectations bc he is out of position a lot. Frankly I would not have him way out in the perimeter guarding anyone, just let him give everyone space, and hang back. TD is the best for training Boban, bc he's not as mobile himself either, but TD is uncanny making super quick reads, and anticipating. You can't surprise TD, he has an awareness of those around him, and he's vocal. Obviously Boban is not on that level, so his lack of ability to recover into plays or help in a timely fashion is trouble.

Honestly, in the last couple of games, he hasn't impressed as much. Not sure if its the better competition, better scouting by the opponent, lack of focus or lack of good entry passes.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

West and LMA is a fucking defensive mess. :lmao

Sorry dude. Not gonna be realistic. LMA and a Center is realistic. West will always be a bench player. 100%

Im going to bump your shitty take Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) next season. :lol

The LMA-West pairing is a part of the second most used 5-man units on the Spurs and has a very decent Def. Rating of 97.6, only a point and a half worse than the same line-up with Duncan instead of West, so it's not a defensive mess at all.

Also, Aldridge is basically a center, whether he realizes it or not, and will play as a center more as his career progresses. This season about half of his minutes ( 47% ) have been as a center. Once Duncan is done he'll be the fulltime center of the Spurs.

[dabom]

The LMA-West pairing is a part of the second most used 5-man units on the Spurs and has a very decent Def. Rating of 97.6, only a point and a half worse than the same line-up with Duncan instead of West, so it's not a defensive mess at all.

Also, Aldridge is basically a center, whether he realizes it or not, and will play as a center more as his career progresses. This season about half of his minutes ( 47% ) have been as a center. Once Duncan is done he'll be the fulltime center of the Spurs.

Helps that we have Kawhi there to make that rating go down. I've already seen all the good teams take a dump on the LMA west pairing to say it's garbage. Watch the games buddy.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's actually a bit disingenuous of you to say this, as Splitter was included in the "top eight" in your scenario. I'm not going to post PMs, since the 'P' stands for private, but you should know what you had asked originally. Anyway, "cap experts" weren't wrong that the math didn't add up. The cap ended up being $3 Million higher than it was projected to be. And Duncan took a lot less than he was estimated to take in many other scenarios (some had him taking $8 Million, some higher). All of those things added about $14.5 Million to the team's cap space, which gave them room to get LMA, re-sign Tim and pick up McCallum and Boban.



I hope so, but this hasn't been a good year for them health-wise. I think if they win or get knocked out in the first again, they're done. If even Manu retires, the team is going to have much bigger issues than Boban is going to be able to handle.



West isn't all that awkward a fit going forward. For one, if Tim leaves, he's sliding into that starting spot like he has this year. Adding Boban or Diaw there instead means there's another post player, and both of them are worse defenders than West. If Tim stays, you still need a competent starter to play next to LMA, and while I think Anderson could be that guy, it's not clear that he'd be that next season, or even if he'd have to replace Manu even if he is good enough.



I think that's teleological. The Spurs keep who they keep and don't keep who they don't keep. That's all we know. We don't know that they didn't want to keep Splitter or that they didn't want to keep Joseph. Whether Boban is a Spur next year will depend on a lot of factors, the team liking him being only one of those. They'll keep him if they can do so while building the best roster they can next season. They won't if they can't. To me, it's pretty simple. The only questions come from discussing what will make up that roster, and how they can go about facilitating it this season.

Judging something based on its intent? If you are going to go pedant at least make sense. Teleological reasoning is not necessarily false particularly in human constructs. The Spurs program is a human construct. Pop was reared in the military where everything seems to have a place and purpose. Your epistemology is lacking.

It is particularly sound reasoning when discussing a team that routinely gets players to sign for less. In fact Boban already took less money to come here. What reason should there be that he wouldn't do it again?


Over the summer, his contract with Red Star expired, and he reportedly chose the Spurs over several more lucrative offers abroad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/sports/basketball/boban-marjanovic-is-entering-fans-hearts-if-not-the-san-antonio-spurs-lineup.html

LMA wants to play next to a C. West is not a C. It will be awkward for that reason. You don't even consider that very important factor.

On a final note, it's not disingenuous. I personally argued with you whether or not it was possible. You kept saying it wasn't and were wrong. Thinking the cap would remain static was dumb. I remember making that comment when you demanded exact figures. It is what it is.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Cap should go up significantly this year as well.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Boban is a known quality already. He is what he is. He's not a bad player, he's just not dominant relative to his size on the floor. He plays much smaller than he is, which almost every NBA uber-tall guy has done in the history of the league. The fact that guards score over him, around him, and offensively rebound the ball around him time and again should be alarming to Pop. Sure Boban gets rebounds that he happens to be in the right place to get, but often he's stepping on someone to get there. He's a bull in a China closet.

If he plays smaller than he is then why is it that every big man comes at him like he's Shaq particularly guys from Europe and why do smalls obviously look intimidated on his rotations. The guys he plays against act like he's big and then there is your interpretation.

:lol And he's already a known quantity 5 months in. You thinking you have it figured out is not the same thing. To me he looks like he needs more reps because he doesn't look polished on his technique. I can see him trying out new techniques like with rebounding where he is now trying to tip it out to himself as opposed to reaching in and going to get it. Rebounding rules are very different here.

[HBK]

boban's good for what he does, be a 3rd big man off the bench to play against scrubs. but we're fucked if he's our starter

[Chinook]

Judging something based on its intent? If you are going to go pedant at least make sense. Teleological reasoning is not necessarily false particularly in human constructs. The Spurs program is a human construct. Pop was reared in the military where everything seems to have a place and purpose. Your epistemology is lacking.

Fuzz, I unignored this post because I'm stuck at work for three more hours. You have a habit of thinking you're smarter than you really are and become an absolute bore to converse with. I didn't say TD21 was wrong because his view was teleological. But his opinion is uninformative because of it. Essentially, he's begging the question by saying, 'The Spurs keep everyone they want to keep. And I know that because everyone they've wanted to keep, they've kept." It's not illogical, but it is a tautology -- it doesn't extend any reasoning.


It is particularly sound reasoning when discussing a team that routinely gets players to sign for less. In fact Boban already took less money to come here. What reason should there be that he wouldn't do it again?

He said this was a transition year. I doubt he's willing to ink a longer deal at this rate. Will get ink one less than the full MLE? Possibly. Will he re-sign with the Spurs without consulting other teams? Very possibly. But his contract this year was a special case.


LMA wants to play next to a C. West is not a C. It will be awkward for that reason. You don't even consider that very important factor.

Of course I did. It just doesn't matter. If West is better that Boban, he'd start over him. Pop's not going to start a prospect to appease LMA. As I said, they'll probably keep LMA's designation as PF while playing smaller guys next to him like they did with Tim. And this wouldn't be permanent. The Spurs just won't have the leeway to get someone who could actually start at center next season. Cap issues and such. Or I guess it may never happen depending on team priorities. I do know that Pop isn't keen to start Boban in Tim's absence.


I personally argued with you whether or not it was possible. You kept saying it wasn't and were wrong.

If you don't show evidence, it's just hearsay from like the least credible poster this side of Hater. There were plenty of scenarios that ended up being impossible. No reason to believe anyone, me or otherwise, rejected this exact scenario, or even one in its genus.


Thinking the cap would remain static was dumb.

This is a prime example of how you're terrible at making coherent arguments. NO ONE thought the cap was going to remain static. We just assumed it was going to rise by less than it ended up rising. It was supposed to go up from $64.5 Million to $67 Million, and it instead went to $70 Million. The original projections come the NBA and NBPA. We didn't just make them up.

The cap in 2016-2017 is currently projected to be at $89 Million. By that projection, the Spurs will likely not have much cap space. So if you ask if the Spurs can sign Horford while keeping their, the answer will be no. But if the cap jumps to $100 Million or more, then all the sudden it's possible. But that's not our faults that the projections didn't match the reality. We were ALL operating under the same numbers. Or if Al takes a minimum deal, it also works out. But of course, no one was assuming that -- not even you. So don't go around bullshitting people. Every proposed scenario was impossible, and a completely different scenario ended up being reality.

[DMC]

If he plays smaller than he is then why is it that every big man comes at him like he's Shaq particularly guys from Europe and why do smalls obviously look intimidated on his rotations. The guys he plays against act like he's big and then there is your interpretation.

He's playing smaller than he is meaning he doesn't impose his size and will on others. He has flashes of it but why is he riding Rasul Butler level pine? I suppose you think he's caged animal instead of just a big guy who has a decent shot and doesn't understand the fundamentals of his position after years in pro basketball.


:lol And he's already a known quantity 5 months in. You thinking you have it figured out is not the same thing. To me he looks like he needs more reps because he doesn't look polished on his technique. I can see him trying out new techniques like with rebounding where he is now trying to tip it out to himself as opposed to reaching in and going to get it. Rebounding rules are very different here.
Yes. Like Tiago, he isn't new to the game of basketball. He's been playing how long? And you say he needs to play more. Will he be polished by age 35 you think?

[TD 21]

Again, this is REALLY disingenuous. Splitter AND Diaw were part of the "top eight". You had asked if the Spurs could bring in LMA and add him to that group, not have him swap out and replace anyone. Then others proposed trading Splitter while paying Tim $8 Million. Both of those things would have been impossible. It was never 100 percent impossible to keep the top seven and get LMA, as Tim and Manu could have taken min deals (which would have allowed them to keep Cory, for example). The math ended up being different than the proposed scenarios. People don't have to defend 2+2=4 when it is actually 2+3.



I think LMA will be a center the same way Tim was for many years. But I also think that West will have his share of tough assignments. He plays well with the starters, and he seems like the perfect bridge player either while someone gets ready or until 2017 when they get a free agent. Right now, he adds more value to the team than Boban, whose upside is theoretical at this point. I don't see him as the starter over West unless he looks a lot better than he has this season.



This was the first year the team was under the cap since 2003. So they never had to make financial decisions like this. They will be under the cap against soon, likely in 2017, but possibly this summer. They also haven't had a situation like they do with Boban now. They don't normally sign prospects to one-year deals, as they usually have the leverage to get at least a second year out of it. And they haven't been in a situation where they'll be trying to patch up a rotation in the wake of losing two future HoFers. So just like with LMA, sacrifices are going to have to be made.

I had asked if they could swap one of Splitter/Diaw for Aldridge and maintain the remainder of the top eight. I was told that it would be, to paraphrase, virtually impossible and that at least Mills would have to go. End of story.

Despite the similar physical tools to Duncan, Aldridge's game is better suited to playing more power forward than center and it's important to him that he does so. Even if the former weren't the case, I believe the Spurs have an understanding with him whereby they'll honor that. They also prefer to have a traditional starting lineup.

I don't see Marjanovic as the starter either. If Duncan retires after this season, I could see them shopping in the bargain bin, signing someone like Plumlee and playing center by committee, which they kind of already do given how limited Duncan's minutes are now.

I don't know why you're assuming that Duncan and Ginobili are going to retire. Either way, I'm confident Marjanovic will return, barring some team making an astronomical offer, which I doubt.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzz, I unignored this post because I'm stuck at work for three more hours. You have a habit of thinking you're smarter than you really are and become an absolute bore to converse with. I didn't say TD21 was wrong because his view was teleological. But his opinion is uninformative because of it. Essentially, he's begging the question by saying, 'The Spurs keep everyone they want to keep. And I know that because everyone they've wanted to keep, they've kept." It's not illogical, but it is a tautology -- it doesn't extend any reasoning.



He said this was a transition year. I doubt he's willing to ink a longer deal at this rate. Will get ink one less than the full MLE? Possibly. Will he re-sign with the Spurs without consulting other teams? Very possibly. But his contract this year was a special case.



Of course I did. It just doesn't matter. If West is better that Boban, he'd start over him. Pop's not going to start a prospect to appease LMA. As I said, they'll probably keep LMA's designation as PF while playing smaller guys next to him like they did with Tim. And this wouldn't be permanent. The Spurs just won't have the leeway to get someone who could actually start at center next season. Cap issues and such. Or I guess it may never happen depending on team priorities. I do know that Pop isn't keen to start Boban in Tim's absence.



If you don't show evidence, it's just hearsay from like the least credible poster this side of Hater. There were plenty of scenarios that ended up being impossible. No reason to believe anyone, me or otherwise, rejected this exact scenario, or even one in its genus.



This is a prime example of how you're terrible at making coherent arguments. NO ONE thought the cap was going to remain static. We just assumed it was going to rise by less than it ended up rising. It was supposed to go up from $64.5 Million to $67 Million, and it instead went to $70 Million. The original projections come the NBA and NBPA. We didn't just make them up.

The cap in 2016-2017 is currently projected to be at $89 Million. By that projection, the Spurs will likely not have much cap space. So if you ask if the Spurs can sign Horford while keeping their, the answer will be no. But if the cap jumps to $100 Million or more, then all the sudden it's possible. But that's not our faults that the projections didn't match the reality. We were ALL operating under the same numbers. Or if Al takes a minimum deal, it also works out. But of course, no one was assuming that -- not even you. So don't go around bullshitting people. Every proposed scenario was impossible, and a completely different scenario ended up being reality.

That's funny. I think the exact same about you. I recall you trying to tell me that infinity is not a discrete value, argue that Euler's topology and modern physics didn't argue that, and that there was no way we could get enough cap space to sign LMA last year. That is an empirical basis of me saying youre full of shit. Compare and contrast with your blanket self assuming statements.

You not saying that he is wrong just uninformative? The end result is the same to the audience but nice dissemble. Again that is not the argument nor the circumstance in reality. You ignored that he has already taken less money to come here. And the culture of the Spurs which he clearly buys into is the context from which Boban will make his choice. You are basically disagreeing with the idea that past events are the bast predictor of future events. Temporal order matters and they are not remotely the same thing.

And fuck your 'we.' You are all on your own here. YOU thought the cap wouldn't rise by much. I pointed out the TV deal and how that would cause a greater increase particularly how the league delayed the payout. You were wrong because you didn't consider the context in full and like being a wet blanket.

And considering I wasn't the one pointing out how you were saying it was impossible in this thread, I don't fell that I need to show anything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I had asked if they could swap one of Splitter/Diaw for Aldridge and maintain the remainder of the top eight. I was told that it would be, to paraphrase, virtually impossible and that at least Mills would have to go. End of story.

FWIW, I recall this as well. We are arguing complex issues with multiple contingencies and fronting like your never wrong is just hubris.

BTW, LMA was stating that one of his concerns about where he was signed was that he wanted to play next a legit 5. He said Pop and Duncan cleared that up. Now I am not saying that there was an agreement made one way or another but there is very good reason to think that West as C would be a nonstarter.

[Chinook]

I had asked if they could swap one of Splitter/Diaw for Aldridge and maintain the remainder of the top eight. I was told that it would be, to paraphrase, virtually impossible and that at least Mills would have to go. End of story.

No. You literally did not. You ask to add him to the top eight. Again, this is in writing, so it doesn't make sense to try to change history.


Despite the similar physical tools to Duncan, Aldridge's game is better suited to playing more power forward than center and it's important to him that he does so. Even if the former weren't the case, I believe the Spurs have an understanding with him whereby they'll honor that. They also prefer to have a traditional starting lineup.

West is a traditional PF. LMA is the size of a center. They'd still have a very traditional lineup. The Spurs are clearly fine playing him there, as they have done so for about half of his minutes. I do think they'll try to get a legit center to put next to him. But I don't think they'll have a worse first unit simply because they want to play a center. We would have seen Boban start more if that were an issue.


I don't see Marjanovic as the starter either. If Duncan retires after this season, I could see them shopping in the bargain bin, signing someone like Plumlee and playing center by committee, which they kind of already do given how limited Duncan's minutes are now.

So if you think they'll do what they are doing now, then you are saying LMA will be the five. Because that's what he is right now. And I REALLY don't think they'll start Mile Plumlee at center before they start West. Like I don't think that at all.


I don't know why you're assuming that Duncan and Ginobili are going to retire. Either way, I'm confident Marjanovic will return, barring some team making an astronomical offer, which I doubt.

The question has never been "Will Boban be back next year?" It's whether he should be back an all costs (not meaning salary, meaning instead of any other player). There's a good chance he comes back for a number of reasons. Duncan could stay, eliminating the need for a better center. West could retire or be content on a min deal again. The Spurs could trade Diaw or another player for a center. None of those things makes giving Boban the MLE the best use of resources. All of the issues I raised will still be there. They would only be at best masked if the Greybeards return. But if they do, the Spurs would have 2017's free agency to make an offer to a decent big, or Milutinov might be ready.

So don't characterize what I said to say that I don't see how Boban can return. But I'm not sure he should given the opportunity cost signing him could have and the likely peak trade value he has right now.

[DMC]

I don't feel like Tim is going to retire. I am about 60/40 that he goes one more, because he's valuable even if just in very limited minutes for his defense and court savvy, teaching the system. He's going to be on the bench one way or the other, either as a player or an assistant coach.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He's playing smaller than he is meaning he doesn't impose his size and will on others. He has flashes of it but why is he riding Rasul Butler level pine? I suppose you think he's caged animal instead of just a big guy who has a decent shot and doesn't understand the fundamentals of his position after years in pro basketball.

Yes. Like Tiago, he isn't new to the game of basketball. He's been playing how long? And you say he needs to play more. Will he be polished by age 35 you think?

Why did it take 3 years for Splitter to get regular minutes? Begging the question is not an argument and me not having an answer doesn't make your premise right. If you want me to guess it's because he missed TC with injury and is taking time to adjust to the American game. Watching him bury guys in the paint over and over again just makes me think you have no clue.

Again Splitter took time when he came over. Infact he only got spot minutes his first two year here. Baynes took over a year as well to get into the rotation. Boban has started out better than both. You don't even address my point about the different rebounding rules and the specific technique of tipping the ball as opposed to reaching into the cylinder like he had been doing. He's adjusting just like Splitter and the other guys that came over in similar circumstances.

Boban's rebounding rate is excellent at 24%. That would be 3rd in the league. His defensive rating is 92 which is again top 5. According to you guys he just gets rebounded over all the time and cannot defend. I see those instances/mistakes as opportunity for him to get even better. Youre right to think he was close just what you infer as a whole misses the forest for a tree.

Now I get with more usage against better competition those stats will go down but its a great starting point to build on and an objective measure to how he has done against the competition put in front of him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I also recall Chinook arguing that Duncan/Manu would not take a large paycut because that was the other variable to make the numbers work.

[Chinook]

I also recall Chinook arguing that Duncan/Manu would not take a large paycut because that was the other variable to make the numbers work.

Again, you're not credible. I argued that they could do so to allow the Spurs even more flexibility than they had. But the proposed $8 Million was too high for the Spurs to just swap out Splitter for LMA. That ended up being reality, as Duncan had to take even less to make LMA-to-SA happen.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Boban can shoot with either hand, has the footwork to turn over either shoulder, and can work out of either block. Most NBA bigmen cannot even do half of that. In fact most NBA big men have no post game at all whatsoever. It's why people were gushing about Okafur when he came out because he can do most of that.

:lol doesn't understand fundamentals.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again, you're not credible. I argued that they could do so to allow the Spurs even more flexibility than they had. But the proposed $8 Million was too high for the Spurs to just swap out Splitter for LMA. That ended up being reality, as Duncan had to take even less to make LMA-to-SA happen.

:lol it's two against one. Both TD and I say the same thing. I like how you are trying to turn it completely into ad hominem. If you want to leave it at this that's fine.

You completely abandoned the point about temporal order and past events being the best predictor of future events. Both the subject and the predicate, Boban and the Spurs, acted in the way we are talking about in the past.

You should change your name to wet blanket, btw.

[DMC]

Why did it take 3 years for Splitter to get regular minutes? Begging the question is not an argument and me not having an answer doesn't make your premise right. If you want me to guess it's because he missed TC with injury and is taking time to adjust to the American game. Watching him bury guys in the paint over and over again just makes me think you have no clue.

How's Splitter doing now?


Again Splitter took time when he came over. Infact he only got spot minutes his first two year here. Baynes took over a year as well to get into the rotation. Boban has started out better than both. You don't even address my point about the different rebounding rules and the specific technique of tipping the ball as opposed to reaching into the cylinder like he had been doing. He's adjusting just like Splitter and the other guys that came over in similar circumstances.
Splitter was injured during preseason in his 1st year. Still, Splitter was a known quantity and he played alongside an all time great team, and he did well, and now he's in Atlanta and he's doing... well.

Nowhere did I say Boban isn't decent. I said he's a known quantity. Can he improve? Sure. So can everyone on the team. Do you expect Rasul Butler to become Michael Jordan?


Boban's rebounding rate is excellent at 24%. That would be 3rd in the league. His defensive rating is 92 which is again top 5. According to you guys he just gets rebounded over all the time and cannot defend. I see those instances/mistakes as opportunity for him to get even better. Youre right to think he was close just what you infer as a whole misses the forest for a tree.
Boban gets trash minutes. Judging trash minute stats is exactly something a philopolemic asshole would do.


Now I get with more usage against better competition those stats will go down but its a great starting point to build on and an objective measure to how he has done against the competition put in front of him. Now you're digging your way out of that hole you dug. You get that his stats are bullshit but you used them anyhow. Good ole' Fuzzy, has to be right even if it's wrong.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How's Splitter doing now?
Splitter was injured during preseason in his 1st year. Still, Splitter was a known quantity and he played alongside an all time great team, and he did well, and now he's in Atlanta and he's doing... well.

Nowhere did I say Boban isn't decent. I said he's a known quantity. Can he improve? Sure. So can everyone on the team. Do you expect Rasul Butler to become Michael Jordan?
Boban gets trash minutes. Judging trash minute stats is exactly something a philopolemic asshole would do.
Now you're digging your way out of that hole you dug. You get that his stats are bullshit but you used them anyhow. Good ole' Fuzzy, has to be right even if it's wrong.

Again you thinking you have him figured out is not the same as it being the case. Your hubris is showing. Splitter was hurt sure but he wasn't hurt the whole year and Pop wouldn't give him regular minutes until his third year. In fact he played/started Bonner over him to many people's chagrin. You want to argue the Spurs don't know how to develop players you go for it.

Boban was similarly hurt coming out the gate and has better players as competition in West, Diaw, and Aldridge yet Pop over the course of the year is finding him minutes outside of blowouts. IOW, Pop is using him more than Baynes/Splitter as this same stage despite having better options.

And the stats are not 'bullshit.' Similar to how baseball adjusts for park factors and similar you can do something similar here. I'm just saying he is not likely to maintain that elite All-NBA leve with more usage. That is still the stat that needs to be adjusted not thrown away as invalid.

And I'm fine with being wrong. There is a lot of uncertainty here. Your just asshurt because I think youre wrong, hubris.

[Chinook]

:lol it's two against one. Both TD and I say the same thing. I like how you are trying to turn it completely into ad hominem. If you want to leave it at this that's fine.

You completely abandoned the point about temporal order and past events being the best predictor of future events. Both the subject and the predicate, Boban and the Spurs, acted in the way we are talking about in the past.

You should change your name to wet blanket, btw.

What to any of this?

First, when you make a claim and don't back it up, calling out your credibility is NOT an ad homenim. An ad homenim is saying that I wouldn't know the rules of the CBA because I'm not a lawyer.

Second, you just said a mess of words trying to sound smart again. Like it doesn't work, man. You've misunderstood your own argument. The Spurs may well keep getting guys to sign for less in the future (which was a point no one was arguing against even if it's more shaky than you believe it is), but they don't keep everyone they want to, or at least we don't know that for sure.

Third, Boban or the Spurs are not predicates. Like WTF? Do you just throw dart boards at a thesaurus and type whatever gets pinned?

Finally, that was THE lamest insult I've ever heard. Like you seriously seem like a guy who took high-school debate and thought he was so cool even he lost all of his matches. I'd believe you were 16, but you have too many posts for that. So it just seems like a darker truth is lurking.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What to any of this?

First, when you make a claim and don't back it up, calling out your credibility is NOT an ad homenim. An ad homenim is saying that I wouldn't know the rules of the CBA because I'm not a lawyer.

Second, you just said a mess of words trying to sound smart again. Like it doesn't work, man. You've misunderstood your own argument. The Spurs may well keep getting guys to sign for less in the future (which was a point no one was arguing against even if it's more shaky than you believe it is), but they don't keep everyone they want to, or at least we don't know that for sure.

Third, Boban or the Spurs are not predicates. Like WTF? Do you just throw dart boards at a thesaurus and type whatever gets pinned?

Finally, that was THE lamest insult I've ever heard. Like you seriously seem like a guy who took high-school debate and thought he was so cool even he lost all of his matches. I'd believe you were 16, but you have too many posts for that. So it just seems like a darker truth is lurking.

ad hominem means 'of the man.' You aren't arguing against my point but instead that it's me saying it.


short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I admit I'm pedantic. Oh well That is another ad hominem. I must have you in a real tizzy. Insecure much? I think it's doubly delicious considering your dropping teleological on TD21. I'm talking to you tautology boy.

I'm thinking of the argument when I say subject/predicate. 'The Spurs will resign Marjonovic." Is there a subject and predicate in that sentence and did they do what I claimed they did? You still cannot argue that Boban has already done it too. You dropped it again.

And it wasn't really an attempt at an insult but rather an observation. You tried to tell us that LMA was a pipedream without gutting the roster before and now your telling us we cannot/should not resign Marjonovic.

wet blanket
Fig. a dull or depressing person who spoils other people's enjoyment.

The shoe fits.

[DMC]

Again you thinking you have him figured out is not the same as it being the case. Your hubris is showing. Splitter was hurt sure but he wasn't hurt the whole year and Pop wouldn't give him regular minutes until his third year. In fact he played/started Bonner over him to many people's chagrin. You want to argue the Spurs don't know how to develop players you go for it.

Boban was similarly hurt coming out the gate and has better players as competition in West, Diaw, and Aldridge yet Pop over the course of the year is finding him minutes outside of blowouts. IOW, Pop is using him more than Baynes/Splitter as this same stage despite having better options.

And the stats are not 'bullshit.' Similar to how baseball adjusts for park factors and similar you can do something similar here. I'm just saying he is not likely to maintain that elite All-NBA leve with more usage. That is still the stat that needs to be adjusted not thrown away as invalid.

And I'm fine with being wrong. There is a lot of uncertainty here. Your just asshurt because I think youre wrong, hubris.

It's good you're fine with being wrong. You've had a lot of time to get accustomed to it.

Boban has had shit minutes in shit games against shit opponents. You somehow think his results are gold but admit his minutes are against low level players. He's a slightly better than expected oaf. Get over it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You like to overthink and over analyze things and use big and obscure words, in a desperate attempt to show people how intelligent you are, but you're not nearly as knowledgeable as you think you are.

[Chinook]

Then you misunderstood. Adding Aldridge to the top eight was never a possibility. And why you'd keep old PM's and reference them is beyond me.

I haven't gotten enough to have to delete them. And if you want to leave it at that, that's fine. I am willing to agree that you didn't think "add to top eight" meant adding LMA to those eight players to make a new top nine if you agree that people weren't saying that signing LMA was impossible even after dumping Splitter. It's easy to chalk it up to a misunderstand. But it wasn't like people were trying to dismiss you saying the Earth is round.


In terms of size, sure. But they'd be deficient in rim protection and rebounding and neither is a roll man. They're playing West at center for about half of his minutes because that's where he fits on the current roster. That's far different than being fine playing him there full time, against starters, for increased minutes.

LMA is playing half of his minutes at center. I imagine West is playing at least that much, but I haven't checked. I'm saying the Spurs will play LMA at the five anyway, since they are doing it now.


West is an accomplished player, who they can't find enough minutes for when healthy; Marjanovic is an NBA rookie. Of course they're going to start West over him when one of Duncan/Aldridge can't go, especially considering Marjanovic is a better fit next to Diaw anyway. That's not some peek into their intent if Duncan retires though.

Like I said, I think West is gone after this season. By playing along with you and assuming Duncan will be too, that would likely leave some bargain bin option, Marjanovic and Aldridge as center options.

I mean, do you really think the Spurs wouldn't keep West and instead go with a min guy to start? Like what would be the difference? They may as well start Cady. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see very few quality min guys this summer, as the rising cap means more money will be available for end-of-rotation guys. I don't think the team will go with a guy like STAT or Villanueva over West, and I don't see much else being available.


Of course, if someone makes an astronomical offer to Marjanovic, he shouldn't be back. But barring that, he should. It's not rocket science.

As I said, it's not about money. I think even if a team offers a $4M/1 deal, it would be testy. Because it's about opportunity cost. If Manu leaves but Tim stays, then keeping Boban is even more risky because it absolutely relies on young guys holding down the fort.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Boban has had 10 or more minutes 12 times so far this season. Compare and contrast to how bigs coming in under similar circumstances, Splitter and Baynes, were handled.

[Chinook]

ad hominem means 'of the man.' You aren't arguing against my point but instead that it's me saying it.

You didn't make a point. You asserted that I said something without backing it up. I said you don't have credibility. If I said that the only reason why you would make that claim is because you didn't like me, then that's an ad homenim. When you make a claim that stands on your credibility, attacking that credibility is on topic. Had you posted evidence, then that would be a different story.


I admit I'm pedantic. Oh well That is another ad hominem. I must have you in a real tizzy. Insecure much? I think it's doubly delicious considering your dropping teleological on TD21. I'm talking to you tautology boy.

That's also not an ad homenim. Like did you even read the article you posted?


And it wasn't really an attempt at an insult but rather an observation. You tried to tell us that LMA was a pipedream without gutting the roster before and now your telling us we cannot/should not resign Marjonovic.

The team let go of a near-franchise-record number of players and would have had to let go of more if it weren't for an unanticipated spike in the cap. Maybe you plan for random miracles to save your ass, but most of us don't. I have NEVER, EVER, FOREVER NEVER said the team can't resign Boban. They absolutely can. But the opportunity cost is higher than it's ever been for a guy of Marjanovic's caliber. It's not a clear-cut decision.

And I had no issue understand what the term meant. It's a lame name anyway.

[steeledl]

FWIW, I recall this as well. We are arguing complex issues with multiple contingencies and fronting like your never wrong is just hubris.




God you try so hard. Trying to compensate for something . r/Iamverysmart . Makes me cringe.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

God you try so hard. Trying to compensate for something . r/Iamverysmart . Makes me cringe.

Thanks terrence. Thanks for pointing out how you are lazy and find that to be virtuous.

[Chinook]

You're running out of time, Fuzz. My shift ends in less than half an hour.

[TD 21]

I haven't gotten enough to have to delete them. And if you want to leave it at that, that's fine. I am willing to agree that you didn't think "add to top eight" meant adding LMA to those eight players to make a new top nine if you agree that people weren't saying that signing LMA was impossible even after dumping Splitter. It's easy to chalk it up to a misunderstand. But it wasn't like people were trying to dismiss you saying the Earth is round.



LMA is playing half of his minutes at center. I imagine West is playing at least that much, but I haven't checked. I'm saying the Spurs will play LMA at the five anyway, since they are doing it now.



I mean, do you really think the Spurs wouldn't keep West and instead go with a min guy to start? Like what would be the difference? They may as well start Cady. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see very few quality min guys this summer, as the rising cap means more money will be available for end-of-rotation guys. I don't think the team will go with a guy like STAT or Villanueva over West, and I don't see much else being available.



As I said, it's not about money. I think even if a team offers a $4M/1 deal, it would be testy. Because it's about opportunity cost. If Manu leaves but Tim stays, then keeping Boban is even more risky because it absolutely relies on young guys holding down the fort.

All it takes is one. Most (and again, this was not directed at you or this board; it was a general statement) thought they'd have to sacrifice Green, in addition to Splitter. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but I was one of the few who was steadfast that they'd find a way to keep Green. And it wasn't because I'm as knowledgeable about the cap as you or others, it was because when they want to keep people and they want to stay, they find a way to make it happen.

It might seem like semantics to you and others, but to Aldridge, it clearly matters whether he's the primary starter at center or not. They know this and I believe they have an understanding with him on this.

I wouldn't be surprised if West retires. In your scenario, where he doesn't and stays but Duncan does, I think they'd start Marjanovic over him. Duncan has started next to placeholder centers for a lot of his career, only for the so called third big to play as much or more and for Duncan to serve as the nominal center for the majority of his minutes. I think history would repeat itself.

Duncan and Ginobili are more than likely tethered together at this point and again, I think both will probably be back, which makes this whole thing moot.

[steeledl]

Thanks terrence. Thanks for pointing out how you are lazy and find that to be virtuous.

Hubris? I mean this entire thread is embarassing. Seriously do you talk like that in real life or is it a ploy you use to try to appear smart on the Internet and distract from the lack of content your soliloquys contain ?

[Chinook]

All it takes is one. Most (and again, this was not directed at you or this board; it was a general statement) thought they'd have to sacrifice Green, in addition to Splitter. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but I was one of the few who was steadfast that they'd find a way to keep Green. And it wasn't because I'm as knowledgeable about the cap as you or others, it was because when they want to keep people and they want to stay, they find a way to make it happen.

It might seem like semantics to you and others, but to Aldridge, it clearly matters whether he's the primary starter at center or not. They know this and I believe they have an understanding with him on this.

I wouldn't be surprised if West retires. In your scenario, where he doesn't and stays but Duncan does, I think they'd start Marjanovic over him. Duncan has started next to placeholder centers for a lot of his career, only for the so called third big to play as much or more and for Duncan to serve as the nominal center for the majority of his minutes. I think history would repeat itself.

Duncan and Ginobili are more than likely tethered together at this point and again, I think both will probably be back, which makes this whole thing moot.

This whole thing is probably moot, as I do think the Spurs will figure something out. But they've definitely had depleted positions before. We all know about how bad the wings were, how there was no decent back-up PG and how McDyess was the second-tallest Spur for a year. So it's not definite that the Spurs will get a center or that they won't play LMA there. If Boban stays at anything other than a couple of million, then I think he's almost forced into starting if the Spurs have only Diaw, rookies and scrap.

I really don't know about Duncan staying. As I said, I think it's strongly dependent on this season. The issue I've been stressing is that the Spurs will have the same limited flexibility whether Tim and Manu are on the team or not. That's what makes this off-season so interesting. So if the Spurs have multiple holes to fill and only the MLE to do it, that's when Boban staying is at it's shakiest.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You didn't make a point. You asserted that I said something without backing it up. I said you don't have credibility. If I said that the only reason why you would make that claim is because you didn't like me, then that's an ad homenim. When you make a claim that stands on your credibility, attacking that credibility is on topic. Had you posted evidence, then that would be a different story.



That's also not an ad homenim. Like did you even read the article you posted?



The team let go of a near-franchise-record number of players and would have had to let go of more if it weren't for an unanticipated spike in the cap. Maybe you plan for random miracles to save your ass, but most of us don't. I have NEVER, EVER, FOREVER NEVER said the team can't resign Boban. They absolutely can. But the opportunity cost is higher than it's ever been for a guy of Marjanovic's caliber. It's not a clear-cut decision.

And I had no issue understand what the term meant. It's a lame name anyway.

:lol dissemble much? I have TD21 to corroborate me.

I quoted the argument. You are attacking my character when you call me pedantic and not credible. It is what it is. Refer to the quote.

And unanticipated? You should say unanticipated by you. I clearly recall pointing out to you how the TV deal money was coming down the pipe.

Your halfassed scenarios are hardly a cost-benefit analysis. You bring up rookies that are immaterial, give no idea of what the market actually looks like or anything else. Instead we get this nebulous notion that we should try to get someone better becasue your worried. It's very similar to the sentiment you had towards trying for Aldridge last season.

And its not a name as much as as definition. You embody that term. You are a wet blanket.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hubris? I mean this entire thread is embarassing. Seriously do you talk like that in real life or is it a ploy you use to try to appear smart on the Internet and distract from the lack of content your soliloquys contain ?

:lol you think hubris is a big word. yep I talk like this too. we obvioulsy hang around different circles. Where are you on chinook with him dropping tautology, telelogical, and the like. Your butthurt is showing. Don't worry, you embody the ethics I reject too.

[HarlemHeat37]

God you try so hard. Trying to compensate for something . r/Iamverysmart . Makes me cringe.

:lmao

Bro, he used to be a High School girl's basketball coach, you can't fuck with him..

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think its hilarious that you think I have to try hard when its obvious from the fragments and misspellings that I don't really try hard at all.

Here's an idea: just because something is hard for you doesn't make it hard for everybody.

[TD 21]

This whole thing is probably moot, as I do think the Spurs will figure something out. But they've definitely had depleted positions before. We all know about how bad the wings were, how there was no decent back-up PG and how McDyess was the second-tallest Spur for a year. So it's not definite that the Spurs will get a center or that they won't play LMA there. If Boban stays at anything other than a couple of million, then I think he's almost forced into starting if the Spurs have only Diaw, rookies and scrap.

I really don't know about Duncan staying. As I said, I think it's strongly dependent on this season. The issue I've been stressing is that the Spurs will have the same limited flexibility whether Tim and Manu are on the team or not. That's what makes this off-season so interesting. So if the Spurs have multiple holes to fill and only the MLE to do it, that's when Boban staying is at it's shakiest.

Obviously, none of this is definite; it's just our opinions. But with stuff like this, my opinion is highly influenced by how I've seen the front office operate over the years.

I suspect Marjanovic ends up getting 2 years/$8-10M and that he'll essentially split backup center minutes behind Duncan, with Aldridge next season and do the same the following season behind Splitter.

You say multiple holes and limited flexibility, but if Duncan and Ginobili retire, find a clear better center than Marjanovic for the MLE. On the wings, they'd probably just go with Simmons, Anderson, Bertans and some random minimum type (possibly the 1st).

[steeledl]

:lol you think hubris is a big word. yep I talk like this too. we obvioulsy hang around different circles. Where are you on chinook with him dropping tautology, telelogical, and the like. Your butthurt is showing. Don't worry, you embody the ethics I reject too.

It's not a big word....its just not used in conversation. Most of the "big words" you use are certainly not necessary in this setting but for some reason it gives you a sense of superiority. In reality it just screams insecurity and makes you look small.

[Chinook]

:lol dissemble much? I have TD21 to corroborate me.

I think this is the last exchange for now, Fuzz, as I have to get home soon to watch the game. But I am glad I can cross 'dissemble' off my Fuzzy bingo card.


I quoted the argument. You are attacking my character when you call me pedantic and not credible. It is what it is. Refer to the quote.

Attacking your character isn't an ad homenim. Dismissing your argument solely because of your character is. You didn't bring evidence. That's why I can't actually talk about it. All we have to go on is your credibility, which is questionable.


And unanticipated? You should say unanticipated by you. I clearly recall pointing out to you how the TV deal money was coming down the pipe.

Again, no credibility. Show some evidence. And again, that's all accounted for the cap projections, hence why the project cap next year is $89 Million and at $108 Million in 2017. These are numbers everyone is operating on, as they are released by the league and NBPA. You're not smarter than everyone else. Get over it.


Your halfassed scenarios are hardly a cost-benefit analysis. You bring up rookies that are immaterial, give no idea of what the market actually looks like or anything else. Instead we get this nebulous notion that we should try to get someone better becasue your worried. It's very similar to the sentiment you had towards trying for Aldridge last season.

Lol, again, dude, you're not as smart as you think you are. You didn't say anything of substance. You agree rookies are "immaterial" but don't understand that that's why using the MLE on Boban is risky. And should the Spurs NOT try to get someone better than Boban? Do you think they would have signed LMA if they had your opinion?


And its not a name as much as as definition. You embody that term. You are a wet blanket.

Hasn't stopped being a lame name/insult.

Anyway, it was not really fun. But it did take the time away. I'll hit you up when I'm bored again.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's not a big word....its just not used in conversation. Most of the "big words" you use are certainly not necessary in this setting but for some reason it gives you a sense of superiority. In reality it just screams insecurity and makes you look small.

What should I say instead of hubris? You don't argue that I use the word incorrectly or there is a better way to phrase it. Nope we jsut get the big word police. Looking small indeed.

Sorry I have no interest in talking like you. I am who I am. You don't like me but somehow I will have to figure out how to go on living.

[Chinook]

You say multiple holes and limited flexibility, but if Duncan and Ginobili retire, find a clear better center than Marjanovic for the MLE. On the wings, they'd probably just go with Simmons, Anderson, Bertans and some random minimum type (possibly the 1st).

The thing is that Boban takes up the MLE in that scenario, so you don't have that to find a better center. So you replace two HoFers with rookies or scrap. Boban has to be a more sure thing to warrant that. If he gets frozen out by match-ups the team will pretty much be SoL.

[steeledl]

:lmao

Bro, he used to be a High School girl's basketball coach, you can't fuck with him..


Get the fuck out? English major couldn't find a job so he taught high school and coached girls basketball for a little extra scratch?

honestly would explain a lot .

[steeledl]

What should I say instead of hubris? You don't argue that I use the word incorrectly or there is a better way to phrase it. Nope we jsut get the big word police. Looking small indeed.

Sorry I have no interest in talking like you. I am who I am. You don't like me but somehow I will have to figure out how to go on living.

I doubt many people care for your presence if this is how you conduct yourself in real life...... But I doubt you do. Most people are uneducated on here and you try to exploit that . Sad , tbh.

[TD 21]

The thing is that Boban takes up the MLE in that scenario, so you don't have that to find a better center. So you replace two HoFers with rookies or scrap. Boban has to be a more sure thing to warrant that. If he gets frozen out by match-ups the team will pretty much be SoL.

I know, but what I'm asking is, could you find a clear better center for the MLE anyway? That will be chump change in this market, particularly for any decent center.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think this is the last exchange for now, Fuzz, as I have to get home soon to watch the game. But I am glad I can cross 'dissemble' off my Fuzzy bingo card.



Attacking your character isn't an ad homenim. Dismissing your argument solely because of your character is. You didn't bring evidence. That's why I can't actually talk about it. All we have to go on is your credibility, which is questionable.



Again, no credibility. Show some evidence. And again, that's all accounted for the cap projections, hence why the project cap next year is $89 Million and at $108 Million in 2017. These are numbers everyone is operating on, as they are released by the league and NBPA. You're not smarter than everyone else. Get over it.



Lol, again, dude, you're not as smart as you think you are. You didn't say anything of substance. You agree rookies are "immaterial" but don't understand that that's why using the MLE on Boban is risky. And should the Spurs NOT try to get someone better than Boban? Do you think they would have signed LMA if they had your opinion?



Hasn't stopped being a lame name/insult.

Anyway, it was not really fun. But it did take the time away. I'll hit you up when I'm bored again.


Attacking your character isn't an ad homenim.


An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument

Your saying my word is no good because I have no credibility. My evidence is TD21 who corroborates me.

It's adorable you complaining about my word choice when you drop teleological and tautology as the core of your argument. Me saying dissemble and hubris is too much. . . in the age of the internet. . .

The scenarios you laid out discussed the impact of bringing in LJC, Bertans, and Milutinov and saying we have at best the MLE to do anything. You didn't present what other opportunities we had thus me saying no real cost benefit analysis. You don't claim what you did say but instead we get the blanket denial instead. This is particularly entertaining in light of your demands of evidence from me. Hypocrisy is like water on a duck to you.

Who is better than Boban that we can sign for the MLE to play the 5? Youre the one talking about opportunity cost. Thatis my central argument. I was very much so for clearing space and going for Gasol/Aldridge last year.

And of course its lame but that doesn't mean its not true.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I doubt many people care for your presence if this is how you conduct yourself in real life...... But I doubt you do. Most people are uneducated on here and you try to exploit that . Sad , tbh.

:lol you should try harder.

We both know that you are mad because I coined the term nihilist dimwit after reading your takes for long enough. That's when you started coming at me with this shit.

Maybe I look small but there is no question that I make you feel small. Actions speak louder than words, chachi.

[steeledl]

:lol you should try harder.

We both know that you are mad because I coined the term nihilist dimwit after reading your takes for long enough. That's when you started coming at me with this shit.

Maybe I look small but there is no question that I make you feel small. Actions speak louder than words, chachi.


The fact that you honestly believe this is evidence of everything I've said about you. That is your agenda..... But it doesn't work with me. I'm also educated just not petty and insecure.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The fact that you honestly believe this is evidence of everything I've said about you. That is your agenda..... But it doesn't work with me. I'm also educated just not petty and insecure.

It's cute that you claim to be educated but instead are saying this for the benefit of others. you martyr you.

You sure on intent on making it all about me. Carry on but I find this entire thing vanity. if you want to discuss the team then great but I'm done with this.

[dabom]

Fuzzy winning this argument tbh. Even though he is a jackass some times.

[DMC]

I think its hilarious that you think I have to try hard when its obvious from the fragments and misspellings that I don't really try hard at all.

Here's an idea: just because something is hard for you doesn't make it hard for everybody.

You're a 2 dollar whore in a 10 dollar dress.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're a 2 dollar whore in a 10 dollar dress.

It's entertaining. My entire schtick is about acting haughty and pedantic to bring out insecure people. Intelligent people actually argue on merit and don't get into this petty namecalling. Nice misogyny though. You sure got me!

While you guys say I'm not as smart as I think I am what its really about is you don't want me more intelligent than you. It's why you cannot admit when your wrong and act like you accomplished something when I admit a mistake. Actions speak louder than words.

So Boban gets minutes in the first three quarters for three out of last four games. DMC's take: Boban only gets minutes in garbage time.

Boban frustrates Whiteside by leaning on him for a couple quarters so he lashes out with a cheap shot. DMC's take: Boban plays small.

[dabom]

I'm on the heat boards and they all admit Boban took hassan's cookies. Daylight robbery and shit. :lmao

[SAGirl]

Wow, this went by the wayside. Some interesting points. TD returning is all just opinion and speculation by all of us of course. Personally I think it's the knee. Regardless how the season goes.

I am going to be bold. LMA, Kawhi and Danny, combined with an assortment of other bench players, in fact different guys every night, have come forward with terrific games. Patty, Kyle, Simmons have all had good games making plays that turned the tides. The team still moves the ball, and has gotten a good ratio of assists. In fact Tony has been poor during this stretch and we still have won. This Spurs team is hardly a team you walk away from while you can play. So the end result of the season doesn't matter, just that the problem for Timmy is the knees.

That said, Boban has been serviceable in this stretch. He has a niche. That will likely have value to other teams as well. So he will be expensive to keep, but I now think he will be kept. Had he failed badly in this stretch w/o Timmy I would have doubted him more. I missed much of his play against Whiteside this game though, but he's been able to stay on the floor and like Manu says, Pop doesn't give gifts. He's earned his chances.

We might be cash strapped but we have a talented team already. If Timmy and Manu retire we already have stars to take most of the burden and a solid support cast.

I think w/o TD or with TD reduced role and minutes we have guys who have stepped in already and we may end up playing a different style with more stretch forwards, and then you have Boban situationally.

At least this is how it looks right now.

[steeledl]

It's entertaining. My entire schtick is about acting haughty and pedantic to bring out insecure people. Intelligent people actually argue on merit and don't get into this petty namecalling. Nice misogyny though. You sure got me!

While you guys say I'm not as smart as I think I am what its really about is you don't want me more intelligent than you. It's why you cannot admit when your wrong and act like you accomplished something when I admit a mistake. Actions speak louder than words.

So Boban gets minutes in the first three quarters for three out of last four games. DMC's take: Boban only gets minutes in garbage time.

Boban frustrates Whiteside by leaning on him for a couple quarters so he lashes out with a cheap shot. DMC's take: Boban plays small.

Hahaha... you can not be this much of a fucking tool.... it's just not possible. Have to be a troll.


Anyways, anecdotal evidence= Im right. Good shit bruh. You are bringing the goods. We agreed Boban is a situation big and this was a good spot for him. Whiteside isn't going to challenge him with his offensive game or be able to punish him with the PnR like all the real competition in the league will. These were the issues.....tonight is hardly worth beating your chest about. Whatever though, he played pretty well in a game that was better suited for him... that's good.


Btw, you are a moron.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol If you weren't acting out my supporting points you might be convincing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I had asked if they could swap one of Splitter/Diaw for Aldridge and maintain the remainder of the top eight. I was told that it would be, to paraphrase, virtually impossible and that at least Mills would have to go. End of story.

Despite the similar physical tools to Duncan, Aldridge's game is better suited to playing more power forward than center and it's important to him that he does so. Even if the former weren't the case, I believe the Spurs have an understanding with him whereby they'll honor that. They also prefer to have a traditional starting lineup.

I don't see Marjanovic as the starter either. If Duncan retires after this season, I could see them shopping in the bargain bin, signing someone like Plumlee and playing center by committee, which they kind of already do given how limited Duncan's minutes are now.

I don't know why you're assuming that Duncan and Ginobili are going to retire. Either way, I'm confident Marjanovic will return, barring some team making an astronomical offer, which I doubt.


No. You literally did not. You ask to add him to the top eight. Again, this is in writing, so it doesn't make sense to try to change history.



West is a traditional PF. LMA is the size of a center. They'd still have a very traditional lineup. The Spurs are clearly fine playing him there, as they have done so for about half of his minutes. I do think they'll try to get a legit center to put next to him. But I don't think they'll have a worse first unit simply because they want to play a center. We would have seen Boban start more if that were an issue.



So if you think they'll do what they are doing now, then you are saying LMA will be the five. Because that's what he is right now. And I REALLY don't think they'll start Mile Plumlee at center before they start West. Like I don't think that at all.



The question has never been "Will Boban be back next year?" It's whether he should be back an all costs (not meaning salary, meaning instead of any other player). There's a good chance he comes back for a number of reasons. Duncan could stay, eliminating the need for a better center. West could retire or be content on a min deal again. The Spurs could trade Diaw or another player for a center. None of those things makes giving Boban the MLE the best use of resources. All of the issues I raised will still be there. They would only be at best masked if the Greybeards return. But if they do, the Spurs would have 2017's free agency to make an offer to a decent big, or Milutinov might be ready.

So don't characterize what I said to say that I don't see how Boban can return. But I'm not sure he should given the opportunity cost signing him could have and the likely peak trade value he has right now.


TD21 was right:


They would need to also include Mills and Williams to match salaries. If the Spurs are using cap space to sign Aldridge (which is the case in this scenario), then they need assets from Cleveland for Splitter, since SA gains nothing by agreeing to a sign-and-trade on it's own. Portland also gains nothing by doing this trade, so I doubt they go for it. The Cavs would have to pay both to make it happen, and of course they wouldn't, because they have the Haywood contract.

I'd consider this more viable.

Spurs trade Diaw and Mills to Cleveland for Christmas and Harris and two seconds to Portland for Aldridge.

Cleveland trades Christmas, Harris and Haywood for Mills and Diaw

Portland trades Aldridge ($17.5 Million) for Haywood, Reggie Williams, Harris and two seconds.

Credibility indeed.

[dabom]

Fuzzy going in. :wow

[steeledl]

Daboom is your biggest fan... hilarious considering he is the boards Brenden Dassy.

[dabom]

Does anyone ever respond to your takes steeledfaggot? Thought so.

Don't be like unt or whatever that faggot is called. You people keep getting ignored and you don't even know it. :lmao

[DMC]

It's entertaining. My entire schtick is about acting haughty and pedantic to bring out insecure people. Intelligent people actually argue on merit and don't get into this petty namecalling. Nice misogyny though. You sure got me!

While you guys say I'm not as smart as I think I am what its really about is you don't want me more intelligent than you. It's why you cannot admit when your wrong and act like you accomplished something when I admit a mistake. Actions speak louder than words.

So Boban gets minutes in the first three quarters for three out of last four games. DMC's take: Boban only gets minutes in garbage time.

Boban frustrates Whiteside by leaning on him for a couple quarters so he lashes out with a cheap shot. DMC's take: Boban plays small.

No, I said Boban's stats are sandbagged with shit minutes. You acknowledged it but lodged those stats anyhow.

Your entire schtick is being a a faggot. I'm pretty sure that's you IRL.

"hurr durr you responded ergo vis a vis I am smart"

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Now I get with more usage against better competition those stats will go down but its a great starting point to build on and an objective measure to how he has done against the competition put in front of him.


And the stats are not 'bullshit.' Similar to how baseball adjusts for park factors and similar you can do something similar here. I'm just saying he is not likely to maintain that elite All-NBA level with more usage. That is still the stat that needs to be adjusted not thrown away as invalid.


No, I said Boban's stats are sandbagged with shit minutes. You acknowledged it but lodged those stats anyhow.

Your entire schtick is being a a faggot. I'm pretty sure that's you IRL.

"hurr durr you responded ergo vis a vis I am smart"


A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

People trying to sound intelligent on a message board. :rolleyes

To the topic on hand, Boban played well last night and Whiteside only scored one basket on him which even then was luck as it rolled around on the rim and looked like it was coming off before magically just fallin in.

Boban pushed Whiteside around like a little bitch, which caused Whiteside to throw a cheapshot elbow at Boban. And Boban did a great job of protecting the rim last night. Still needs to set stronger picks on offense and needs to hedge harder on D. But he did a better job in both departments last night.

And people saying he is 28, he is 27 and won't be 28 until August. The guy has potential and with Duncan's tutelage and guy should be ready by next year to a solid playoff contributor no doubt. People nowadays are just so fuckin' impatient and want to see the end product of things asap.

[Chinook]

And people saying he is 28, he is 27 and won't be 28 until August. The guy has potential and with Duncan's tutelage and guy should be ready by next year to a solid playoff contributor no doubt. People nowadays are just so fuckin' impatient and want to see the end product of things asap.

Trying to act high and mighty and missing the fact that people are talking about him being 28 NEXT YEAR, not this year.

How about this: Instead of assuming that folks don't know basic demographic and statistical facts about Boban (his age, size, NBA tenure, per-36 stats, etc), we concede that the other side of the issue is more complicated than that. No one but DMC thinks Boban is as good as he's going to be. The question is if he's going to be good enough fast enough to justify the Spurs using what is possibly their only non-minimum contract on him. It's whether he's going to be able to be an every-game center taking on 30 MPG. It's whether he can do enough to prevent other teams from phasing him out of certain match-ups.

None of that is settled because he had a good game against Whiteside. And it wasn't settled when Boban had his stretch of poor games. It won't be settled when he has his next bad or good game. This is something that may not be settled until the Spurs are forced to pick a path to build next season's roster. And even then, we may be bemoaning the team's choice for years.

People's overreaction to single games that happen to confirm their views is just silly.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Trying to act high and mighty and missing the fact that people are talking about him being 28 NEXT YEAR, not this year.

How about this: Instead of assuming that folks don't know basic demographic and statistical facts about Boban (his age, size, NBA tenure, per-36 stats, etc) they realize that the other side of the issue is more complicated than that. No one by DMC thinks Boban is as good as he's going to be. The question is if he's going to be good enough fast enough to justify the Spurs using what is possibly their only non-minimum contract on him. It's whether he's going to be able to be an every-game center taking on 30 MPG. It's whether he can do enough to prevent other teams from phasing him out of certain match-ups.

None of that is settled because he had a good game against Whiteside. And it wasn't settled when Boban had his stretch of poor games. It won't be settled when he has his next bad or good game. This is something that may not be settled until the Spurs are forced to pick a path to build next season's roster. And even then, we may be bemoaning the team's choice for years.

People's overreaction to single games that happen to confirm their views is just silly.

Assuming. Look at the previous posts, several posters in several threads have said he is 28 already. Maybe they are inferring he will be 28 by next season, but he still will be only 27 when FA rolls around.

Look at the previous posts, over half have nothing to do with Boban and everything to do with being proven right. I am not high and mighty, I think it's ridiculous. WHO GIVES A FUCK. This is a Spurs message board. I respect the fact some think Boban is a good as he is going to be. But there are others who do not. But I simply state the fact he is A ROOKIE is the most complex system in the NBA as Fuzzy has mentioned as well.

This isn't Blair where talking about who had like 4 years here and did nothing to improve himself. This is a guy who missed TC recovering from surgery on a fractured ankle. Someone who has NEVER played a minute of NBA basketball on any level. Someone still overcoming the language barrier (something you see Diaw helps him with a lot on the court). Someone who is learning on the fly and hasn't had a full season as a cemented player in the Spurs bench rotation.

If people think that he won't improve that is their take. My differs. I think he will improve. I have stated my reasons. I also point out what Boban does do wrong and he makes a lot of mistakes, which you expect from a rookie. But if I notice these mistakes, you can bet your ass the Spurs coaches do. He is gradually improving on a game to game basis and that is a good sign. You can't ask for more at this point.

And you say that people confirming their projections after ONE GAME. Who did that. Tell me, who did that. NO ONE. From what I read, people said he is showing signs of improvement. That's not confirming anything as IMO Boban is about halfway to what I think he is capable of. He has a ways to go before I would consider him a finished product.

Is he good enough for the Spurs to use the MLE or a large or portion of it on Boban, let me see, the going rate for A HALF DECENT C nowadays is 10-12 mil. A very good C 13-15 mil. A Superstar C, 16-24 mil + depending on his years in the league and the max allowed (not factoring the rookie scale). Based on this, I would say yes, even with what Boban has shown thus far this year. 5 mil to drop on Boban would be FMV through and through considering the price tag of his position, his age, and his potential.

[Chinook]

Assuming. Look at the previous posts, several posters in several threads have said he is 28 already. Maybe they are inferring he will be 28 by next season, but he still will be only 27 when FA rolls around.

He'll be a 28-year-old project on an MLE deal next year. That's the entire sticking point. Not that he's a 27-year-old project making a million bucks this year. That's why the distinction matters.


Look at the previous posts, over half have nothing to do with Boban and everything to do with being proven right. I am not high and mighty, I think it's ridiculous. WHO GIVES A FUCK. This is a Spurs message board. I respect the fact some think Boban is a good as he is going to be. But there are others who do not. But I simply state the fact he is A ROOKIE is the most complex system in the NBA as Fuzzy has mentioned as well.

This was the entire point of my critique. You pay attention to most what I said and are still trying to act high and mighty. ONLY DMC (who's trolling like a mofo right now) and maybe steel think Boban won't get better. So all this talk about us having to realize that Boban is a rookie trying to learn the system just reeks of condescension. As if there's a large swath of people who don't know Boban wasn't in the NBA last year.

I said (paraphrasing), 'Instead of assuming people don't know basic facts, assume their arguments are more complex and actually address them.' Instead, you regurgitated the same defense that no one was arguing against. We all think Boban will get better next season. Hell, he's better than he was two months ago. But that doesn't mean that we should project him as a core player going forward, and that's a choice the Spurs have to make with the way his contract is.


And you say that people confirming their projections after ONE GAME. Who did that. Tell me, who did that. NO ONE. From what I read, people said he is showing signs of improvement. That's not confirming anything as IMO Boban is about halfway to what I think he is capable of. He has a ways to go before I would consider him a finished product.

You've been around ST long enough to know what I'm talking about. Just look at the "Is Aldridge worth it?" thread to see how people run to bump things or claim victory on both sides after any game. The various Green threads are the same way. Maybe you would have posted the same defense had Boban fouled out in like a minute last night. But all I was saying is that we don't have enough evidence know what decision the team should make yet. It's too murky, and no matter what, one game can't sway the decision by itself. It wasn't a shot at you.


Is he good enough for the Spurs to use the MLE or a large or portion of it on Boban, let me see, the going rate for A HALF DECENT C nowadays is 10-12 mil. A very good C 13-15 mil. A Superstar C, 16-24 mil + depending on his years in the league and the max allowed (not factoring the rookie scale). Based on this, I would say yes, even with what Boban has shown thus far this year. 5 mil to drop on Boban would be FMV through and through considering the price tag of his position, his age, and his potential.

That ignores the entire situation. In a vacuum, Boban is worth several million a year. Few would argue that. But the Spurs are going to have to deal with having so many old guys soon -- either this summer or next. When those guys retire, it's going to become obvious that the team has been experiencing a nearly unprecedented skew in their talent-to-salary ratio. They're going to have a lot of holes and very little means of filling them unless Tim and Manu again come back and kick the can down the road. If even one of them retires, the Spurs all of the sudden have much bigger concerns than keeping a project center.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

You're assuming that I was talking about you. I said several posters, not you. You just said DMC and Steel stated he wouldn't improve and then say everyone thinks he will improved.

Dude, I have stated my points and yes he is worth it. Is it murky, maybe to you and you stated why. Is it murky to me, No, I have stated why. And that is how a basketball discussion should go. Again, look at the previous post and it is nothing like that. Boban only had one foul last night, as he is learning not to reach when he doesn't have to.

And for the Spurs C situation.

http://hoopshype.com/2016/01/16/nba-free-agency-2016-centers/

And I have already said I think the Spurs should go after Noah IF Duncan retires. Pretty much the only C on that list that I think fits the Spurs system who will be in the Spurs price range.

Spurs are at 82 mil right now. If Duncan/Manu retire, Spurs will be around 74 mil. Let's say the cap goes up to 87mil, Spurs can split that and give Noah 8 mil, West 3 mil and Ray 2mil. Spurs restrict Boban and just match whatever team tries to sign him. Considering Noah's injury concern and drop off, I think the Spurs could get him for that price. He could start and Boban can be the backup and West/Diaw can be LMA backup, while still playing a mixture of everyone to keep everyone fresh for the playoffs.

Spurs are in a good situation to replace Duncan while retaining Boban due to the RFA status.

[Mel_13]

And I have already said I think the Spurs should go after Noah IF Duncan retires. Pretty much the only C on that list that I think fits the Spurs system who will be in the Spurs price range.

Spurs are at 82 mil right now. If Duncan/Manu retire, Spurs will be around 74 mil. Let's say the cap goes up to 87mil, Spurs can split that and give Noah 8 mil, West 3 mil and Ray 2mil. Spurs restrict Boban and just match whatever team tries to sign him. Considering Noah's injury concern and drop off, I think the Spurs could get him for that price. He could start and Boban can be the backup and West/Diaw can be LMA backup, while still playing a mixture of everyone to keep everyone fresh for the playoffs.

Spurs are in a good situation to replace Duncan while retaining Boban due to the RFA status.

Spurs don't have Bird Rights on Boban. If they tender the QO then the Arenas Rule will apply. Depending on their cap situation, they will have to use cap space or the MLE to sign Boban.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Reading through this thread I have a feeling most people who want to keep Boban have the false premise that the Spurs have his bird rights, when the reality is that he might be the only non-minimum contract they'd sign next summer.

[Chinook]

Reading through this thread I have a feeling most people who want to keep Boban have the false premise that the Spurs have his bird rights, when the reality is that he might be the only non-minimum contract they'd sign next summer.

Yes! Thank you. And while that's not a HUGE deal if Tim, Manu and especially West come back, the issue is that even if all of those guys retire, the Spurs will likely not have cap space (as I believe that the Spurs are guaranteeing that money even if the Greybeards don't come back). That is why the Spurs have to scrutinize Boban carefully and make sure he's a guy they want to use the MLE on.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Spurs don't have Bird Rights on Boban. If they tender the QO then the Arenas Rule will apply. Depending on their cap situation, they will have to use cap space or the MLE to sign Boban.

It's best if TD and Manu don't retire. But I think they come back for one more season. The only change I see is Bonner spot opening for Bertans and possibly Ray getting a larger offer than the Spurs would want to match.

[Chinook]

You're assuming that I was talking about you. I said several posters, not you. You just said DMC and Steel stated he wouldn't improve and then say everyone thinks he will improved.

Dude, I have stated my points and yes he is worth it. Is it murky, maybe to you and you stated why. Is it murky to me, No, I have stated why. And that is how a basketball discussion should go. Again, look at the previous post and it is nothing like that. Boban only had one foul last night, as he is learning not to reach when he doesn't have to.

And for the Spurs C situation.

http://hoopshype.com/2016/01/16/nba-free-agency-2016-centers/

And I have already said I think the Spurs should go after Noah IF Duncan retires. Pretty much the only C on that list that I think fits the Spurs system who will be in the Spurs price range.

Spurs are at 82 mil right now. If Duncan/Manu retire, Spurs will be around 74 mil. Let's say the cap goes up to 87mil, Spurs can split that and give Noah 8 mil, West 3 mil and Ray 2mil. Spurs restrict Boban and just match whatever team tries to sign him. Considering Noah's injury concern and drop off, I think the Spurs could get him for that price. He could start and Boban can be the backup and West/Diaw can be LMA backup, while still playing a mixture of everyone to keep everyone fresh for the playoffs.

Spurs are in a good situation to replace Duncan while retaining Boban due to the RFA status.

As Mel said, it doesn't seem like you understand the gravity of the Spurs' upcoming off-season issues. They will likely have to choose between Boban or a vet center. The only way to get both would be like TD21 said -- pick up a min-level vet. But that guy is probably not a Spurs-level starter. Best I could see coming from that is Jason Thompson. And that's pretty horrible. I've been saying the whole time that the situation is a lot more complicated than people are giving it credit for. I really wish it were as simple as looking a Boban's game and deciding if he's worth the money. But it's not.

[Mel_13]

It's best if TD and Manu don't retire. But I think they come back for one more season. The only change I see is Bonner spot opening for Bertans and possibly Ray getting a larger offer than the Spurs would want to match.

Okay, but my point was that your 'cap space player/players plus a matched Boban' scenario is not possible.

[Chinook]

Okay, but my point was that your 'cap space player/players plus a matched Boban' scenario is not possible.

Yeah, it's like the Rockets and McDaniels last year. They literally couldn't use a dollar of the MLE until after they got KJM to agree to a new deal. If the Spurs want to bring in Bertans or Cady on a long-term deal, they'll have to wait until after Boban makes his decision in order to keep their absolute right of first refusal, and that could make filling out the bottom of the roster annoying, though probably not difficult.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

As Mel said, it doesn't seem like you understand the gravity of the Spurs' upcoming off-season issues. They will likely have to choose between Boban or a vet center. The only way to get both would be like TD21 said -- pick up a min-level vet. But that guy is probably not a Spurs-level starter. But I could see coming from that is Jason Thompson. And that's pretty horrible. I've been saying the whole time that the situation is a lot more complicated than people are giving it credit for. I really wish it were as simple as looking a Boban's game and deciding if he's worth the money. But it's not.

Spurs will have 13+ mil IF TD and Manu retire. 15+mil if West retires.

As the Spurs have shown, they are still a playoff team w/o TD and Manu so its not that grave. If the Spurs could get Noah for around 8mil it would definitely soften the blow.

So my final assessment would be, if Duncan stays, Boban is definitely worth the MLE. If Duncan retires, it will depend if the Spurs can sign someone like Noah for a reasonable deal. Either way, Spurs situation is not terrible. RC will just to have work his magic with the numbers for another off season, which probably becoming a headache of late.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Okay, but my point was that your 'cap space player/players plus a matched Boban' scenario is not possible.

I concur.

[Chinook]

Spurs will have 13+ mil IF TD and Manu retire. 15+mil if West retires.

No. They won't. That money in those second-year options is theirs. If they weren't planning on taking it, they would have signed one-year deals. The Spurs could free up about that much by stretching the contracts and waiving Diaw, but they have probably planned to take that whole hit next season.

That's why I said it's a lot graver than people realize.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As Mel said, it doesn't seem like you understand the gravity of the Spurs' upcoming off-season issues. They will likely have to choose between Boban or a vet center. The only way to get both would be like TD21 said -- pick up a min-level vet. But that guy is probably not a Spurs-level starter. Best I could see coming from that is Jason Thompson. And that's pretty horrible. I've been saying the whole time that the situation is a lot more complicated than people are giving it credit for. I really wish it were as simple as looking a Boban's game and deciding if he's worth the money. But it's not.

I think the disconnect is that you should write less and articulate more.

The gravity of the situation?

You've given up trying to argue that West should play the 5. You've been told that we understand the limited funds we can spend. You keep talking about 'opportunity cost' but when we ask for specifics of what opportunities we can get for the MLE or trade you have absolutely nothing. You have no better options. This makes sense because 10/7 guys get 8 figure salaries so you really don't have a leg to stand on. More complex that we give it credit for? What horseshit.

Basically all you are doing is saying you want to do better than Boban with some nebulous worry about his development that you also cannot articulate. Tiago and Baynes are comparable bigs who came over at about the same age, from the same league, played the same position, and are on the same development path. You just want to boil it down to his demographics as read off his bio.

It's not anecdotal to describe his path. REcently Popovich has been playing him in the meat of games. Sure its dictated by matchup but Pop wouldn't waste his time if he thought like you do. Elliott was saying that early in teh year they weren't sure what they were going to do with him. Now Pop is very obviously trying to find him minutes.

You talk about his demographics and repeat shit we already know and are obtuse to the fact that the development of Europeans C in the Spurs subsumes that. You instead want to treat Boban like he is a draftee that is his age and act like it's comparable. It's not as shown by Baynes and Splitter who came along just fine. Boban is progressing more quickly. This is very similar to how baseball statisticians adjust for Japanese and Cuban players for their progressions. When Ichiro or Matsui come over they don't take their age and compare it to draftees saying they won't develop. It's ham handed and misses the point of whats going on.

If you are going to do statistical analysis and simply ignore the mecahnics and reality of the circumstances you are trying to interpret you are always going to be blindly guessing. You should have known last year the TV deal would inflate the cap figure as you were told.

[ceperez]

With the league going smaller, there's going to be a fire sale for most centers.

There was a recent article that the Thunder are in are trouble because they invested heavily on guys like Adams, Kanter and Collison. Guys that don't translate well to small ball. Thunder was able to catch up with GSW only because they had Ibaka at C and Durant at the 4.

The main perceived liability for Boban is his lack of quickness in defense. That's going to suppress teams from paying premium for him.

Boban is an okay player, but he needs good teammates to compensate for his weaknesses and to exploit his strengths. You need players that funnel players to him on defense and are able to pass to him at the right spots in offense.

There's also something weird about his screens in that the team is just going through the motions and not really using them.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No. They won't. That money in those second-year options is theirs. If they weren't planning on taking it, they would have signed one-year deals. The Spurs could free up about that much by stretching the contracts and waiving Diaw, but they have probably planned to take that whole hit next season.

That's why I said it's a lot graver than people realize.

If they retire its not guaranteed. Its a player option and who knows what they will do particularly with West who likely will go for another pay day. After years of the Spurs arranging deals clandestinely like Kawhi, Danny, Manu, and Tim last year you would think that you would finally catchup. Go ahead and dismiss it as teleological and wave your hands at your nebulous worry of a worst case.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

No. They won't. That money in those second-year options is theirs. If they weren't planning on taking it, they would have signed one-year deals. The Spurs could free up about that much by stretching the contracts and waiving Diaw, but they have probably planned to take that whole hit next season.

That's why I said it's a lot graver than people realize.

That is assuming they will opt in and retire. I was assuming they don't pick up their options and just retire. If they do the former, the Spurs are kind of screwed, FA wise.

If they opt in to their 2nd years, I think they will play. And the recent comments of both Tim and Manu wanting to get back on the court tells me they still have passion for the game, which is a good sign. The only change I really see is Bertans taking Bonner spot on the roster.

[SAGirl]

With the league going smaller, there's going to be a fire sale for most centers.

There was a recent article that the Thunder are in are trouble because they invested heavily on guys like Adams, Kanter and Collison. Guys that don't translate well to small ball. Thunder was able to catch up with GSW only because they had Ibaka at C and Durant at the 4.

The main perceived liability for Boban is his lack of quickness in defense. That's going to suppress teams from paying premium for him.

Boban is an okay player, but he needs good teammates to compensate for his weaknesses and to exploit his strengths. You need players that funnel players to him on defense and are able to pass to him at the right spots in offense.

There's also something weird about his screens in that the team is just going through the motions and not really using them.
I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

[Chinook]

That is assuming they will opt in and retire. I was assuming they don't pick up their options and just retire. If they do the former, the Spurs are kind of screwed, FA wise.

If they opt in to their 2nd years, I think they will play. And the recent comments of both Tim and Manu wanting to get back on the court tells me they still have passion for the game, which is a good sign. The only change I really see is Bertans taking Bonner spot on the roster.

Player options are rarely for the team's benefit. They're designed for the player to get money the team doesn't want them to get. Often, that manifests itself in bad players opting in, like RJ did a couple of seasons ago. Philosophically, though they are injury insurance, like Gerald Henderson picking up his option this year. If Tim and Manu wanted to be one and done, then a one-year deal makes the most sense. If they wanted to go one-and-one, then a one-year STILL made more sense, as it would have allowed both sides to maintain flexibility.

So why did they sign a one-and-one deal? It was because they were undecided on coming back, but I believe the contingencies are the opposite of what you'd expect. If the oldies come back next year, I expect them to opt out, as it would allow for the team to potentially pursue a max free agent or failing that would allow for the Spurs to use their Bird rights to give both guys a nice send-off contract. If they plan to retire, on the other hand, they'll take the money owed to them, which the Spurs would gladly give, seeing as both guys got under-market value on their deals to allow the team to sign LMA.

I will reiterate that you are correct that it could work out that the opt out to retire or opt in to return. I'm not going to act like my scenario is the only one that could work out. But the former situation is too good to hope for, while the latter would be inefficient. Opting out is better in any scenario in which the Spurs wouldn't try to force Manu or Tim to retire against their wills, which I think is a safe bet to not be the case.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

The screen game is two ways and the way guys try to go around him as opposed to fighting through him makes the timing for both ballhandler and screener more difficult. I see what you are talking about but I also see it getting better.

When Mills or Simmons come off a screen don't look for contact particularly if the defender goes around. Look to see if the ballhandler gets separation or at least with the defender behind them or on their hip. It's definitely a work in progress but he seems to have a sense of space and just needs time to figure out angles and timing. Pop is finding him minutes so things are looking up.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Anyone else other than Chinook think West and/or Manu would opt-in and retire screwing the clubs cap situation? Particularly after they have already taken less money to help the club? Gerald Henderson's case is great and all but gmfb.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Player options are rarely for the team's benefit. They're designed for the player to get money the team doesn't want them to get. Often, that manifests itself in bad players opting in, like RJ did a couple of seasons ago. Philosophically, though they are injury insurance, like Gerald Henderson picking up his option this year. If Tim and Manu wanted to be one and done, then a one-year deal makes the most sense. If they wanted to go one-and-one, then a one-year STILL made more sense, as it would have allowed both sides to maintain flexibility.

So why did they sign a one-and-one deal? It was because they were undecided on coming back, but I believe the contingencies are the opposite of what you'd expect. If the oldies come back next year, I expect them to opt out, as it would allow for the team to potentially pursue a max free agent or failing that would allow for the Spurs to use their Bird rights to give both guys a nice send-off contract. If they plan to retire, on the other hand, they'll take the money owed to them, which the Spurs would gladly give, seeing as both guys got under-market value on their deals to allow the team to sign LMA.

I will reiterate that you are correct that it could work out that the opt out to retire or opt in to return. But the former situation is too good to hope for, while the latter would be inefficient. Opting out is better in any scenario in which the Spurs wouldn't try to force Manu or Tim to retire against their wills, which I think is a safe bet to not be the case.

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I have been critical that one of his minuses on offense is that he doesn't set good screens that free up the ball handler at all. It's like he just dances in space. It limits the offense to throwing him lobs and the post ups. He's got a high usage bc if he's playing you almost have to go to him every time or every other time bc he's not that effective setting screens or doing other stuff. I am not sure if the screens or pick setting is rookieshness or not. He's been playing basketball for years and pick and screen setting is a basic big skill.

I do agree like all rookies he needs reps and to learn from his mistakes. Just some things I am skeptical of him improving bc he's new to the NBA but some things are fundamentals that a 27 yr roleplayer should know. Heck some big s screen and pick setting + rebounding and some defense is all they do.

If you watch Boban Serbian Highlights, yes was basically Tim Duncan 15 years ago, meaning he lived in the post. Having to set screens and roll sometimes 2/3 times in one possession is something Boban is not accustomed to. The one Euro league that does do this is the Spanish league which is why guys like Gasol, Splitter were more acclimated to the current NBA offenses. That is why I am not surprised he isn't efficient at this point. But his screens are getting tighter and better by the week. So you can notice there is progression there.

[Mel_13]

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

[Chinook]

When looking at other teams you're correct, and I would assume the worse. But this is the Spurs we're talking about. I just don't see Manu and Tim opting in and NOT PLAYING, knowing the needs the Spurs have to fill. It's just not them. This whole run of Tim, Manu, and Parker and now Kawhi and LMA has been too good to be true but its because the Spurs players sacrifice more than any players in the league. RJ wasn't Spurs material which is why he got shipped out.

Spurs would glady give them the money and I wouldn't hate on them whatsoever if they did, but I just don't seeing them doing that. If they take that money and opt in, I would 90% they will be playing next season even if it is at a reduce capacity.

The question is really how much this was talked about prior to this season. I feel that PATFO consulted pretty heavily with Tim and Manu on how to structure their contracts. The idea of deferred compensation is kinda like the elephant in the room. I doubt like you that Tim and Manu would screw the team over by retiring and pocketing the money without the team's blessing. But I think that could have been the plan all along. If everyone agreed to sacrifice this season and use next season to balance their books, then this upcoming storm is intentional and probably won't be bailed out.

[dabom]

Boban will be in a Spurs jersey next year. He also stated he was only coming to the NBA to play for the Spurs. Fucking retards. :lmao

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The question is really how much this was talked about prior to this season. I feel that PATFO consulted pretty heavily with Tim and Manu on how to structure their contracts. The idea of deferred compensation is kinda like the elephant in the room. I doubt like you that Tim and Manu would screw the team over by retiring and pocketing the money without the team's blessing. But I think that could have been the plan all along. If everyone agreed to sacrifice this season and use next season to balance their books, then this upcoming storm is intentional and probably won't be bailed out.

You have any proof at all that is the case other than incredulity that it could be anything else?

[dabom]

The level of sleuthing in ST is ridiculously low. :lmao

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

Manu was signed with the BAE, so his 2nd year had to be in the contract. Duncan, I just thought he would play another season after this. With the LMA signing, Kawhi rise to stardom, I think both think the Spurs have a shot to win a championship this year and next.

I got a lot of out an interview I watched from Manu this offseason. He said he had to be truly sure that this was the end for him. He knew that if he hung it up it was for good and there wasn't going to be another shot of playing. So he asked himself, does he is still have the hunger and passion for playing. He told himself, yes. I still see it in him, enough that I see him coming back another season.

I think the PO was there as a good faith gesture to both. So yeah, its up to them if they want to come back. And its up to them to opt in and retire or not opt in and retire. The ball is entirely in their court as it should be.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Without disputing anything in your post, the question remains:

Why include second year player options if not to retain the possibility of using them as farewell gifts to Tim and Manu?

To give them the opportunity to come back and play at the same rate. The opt-in and play option.

I get what those options are normally used for and how agents/clubs conventionally use them in negotiations. Without disputing any of that the point remains: the Spurs are not conventional when it comes to how they do their deals.

[raybies]

Imo Spurs signed him to a one year deal for a reason and that was because they are all in to win this year. Like I have said, he is a situational big. He can play against certain teams and that's it. He would have to grow alot with his positioning and still it would be iffy. For the right price he could be a solid 3rd center. But to pay money for a situational big would be folly. I old his character and work ethic but I would much rather have another big that can pick and roll and defend the room as well as not be a liability on D, whether it be pnr or in the post. I think there are some prospects in the draft in our range that can fit better. He's dominant on offense, I give y'all that but he's unplayable against our top 3 threats and I don't want to invest any money in any guy that's not gonna make a difference when it counts. With our cap situation it's something we can't afford to do.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You would think he failed on the pnr every time. You have to wonder how in a pnr league he manages to have a good defensive rating.

[dabom]

I've never said to start Boban(Unless duncan is out for some reason...). Just that he will be a Spur next year. Whatever that role is.

[Mel_13]

The LLE/BAE can be for one or two years.

[dabom]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus - Centers


RK
NAME
TEAM
GP
MPG
ORPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM/position/9)
DRPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/9)
RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/9)
WINS (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/9)


1
DeAndre Jordan (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3442/deandre-jordan)
LAC
50
33.8
1.10
5.85
6.95
10.28


2
DeMarcus Cousins (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4258/demarcus-cousins)
SAC
43
34.2
2.76
3.90
6.66
9.19


3
Tim Duncan (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/215/tim-duncan)
SA
37
25.9
-0.47
6.95
6.48
5.79


4
Nikola Jokic (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3112335/nikola-jokic)
DEN
51
19.9
2.80
2.84
5.64
5.32


5
Pau Gasol (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/996/pau-gasol)
CHI
48
31.9
0.70
4.70
5.40
8.07


6
Andre Drummond (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6585/andre-drummond)
DET
53
33.6
0.11
4.45
4.56
8.43


7
Kelly Olynyk (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2489663/kelly-olynyk)
BOS
53
20.5
1.41
3.12
4.53
5.30


8
Zaza Pachulia (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2016/zaza-pachulia)
DAL
50
29.6
0.39
3.95
4.34
6.47


9
Andrew Bogut (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2747/andrew-bogut)
GS
44
20.8
-1.41
5.70
4.29
4.32


10
Dwight Howard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2384/dwight-howard)
HOU
43
32.2
0.36
3.84
4.20
5.94


11
Jared Sullinger (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger)
BOS
53
23.3
0.30
3.76
4.06
5.57


12
Ian Mahinmi (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2774/ian-mahinmi)
IND
43
24.1
-0.97
4.91
3.94
4.62


13
Rudy Gobert (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3032976/rudy-gobert)
UTAH
31
33.3
-0.50
4.21
3.71
3.83


14
Mason Plumlee (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2488653/mason-plumlee)
POR
53
25.7
0.27
3.25
3.52
5.57


15
Ed Davis (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4259/ed-davis)
POR
52
21.4
0.57
2.67
3.24
4.21


16
Marc Gasol (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3206/marc-gasol)
MEM
52
34.4
0.35
2.85
3.20
6.72


17
Greg Monroe (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4260/greg-monroe)
MIL
51
30.4
1.43
1.65
3.08
5.86


18
Festus Ezeli (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6587/festus-ezeli)
GS
40
17.8
-0.06
3.10
3.04
2.89


19
Boban Marjanovic (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4376/boban-marjanovic)
SA
33
8.8
2.29
0.74
3.03
1.06


20
Brook Lopez (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3448/brook-lopez)
BKN
53
33.7
0.61
2.30
2.91
6.71





Looking good to me for 5th big off the floor for the Spurs. :bobo

[Chinook]

The LLE/BAE can be for one or two years.

And Manu signed for the room exception, which can ALSO be for one or two years.

[Mel_13]

To give them the opportunity to come back and play at the same rate. The opt-in and play option.

I get what those options are normally used for and how agents/clubs conventionally use them in negotiations. Without disputing any of that the point remains: the Spurs are not conventional when it comes to how they do their deals.

They would have had full Bird Rights on both players even if they had signed one year deals with no options.

I'm not going to pretend to know what went on during the negotiations between the players and the team, but I don't see any reason to dismiss the possibility that those options were included as potential golden parachutes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They would have had full Bird Rights on both players even if they had signed one year deals with no options.

I'm not going to pretend to know what went on during the negotiations between the players and the team, but I don't see any reason to dismiss the possibility that those options were included as potential golden parachutes.

I'm not saying discount it. I'm saying there is no reason to insist on it.

[Mel_13]

I'm not saying discount it. I'm saying there is no reason to insist on it.

Agreed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Agreed.

:bobo

And the way I recall it, they had to sign Manu and Tim and clear their holds before they could complete the LMA deal. They couldn't use their bird rights to pay more at that point as it would have taken away Aldridge's cap money. They slotted LMA and fit right up to the cap. It was masterfully done.

[Mel_13]

:bobo

And the way I recall it, they had to sign Manu and Tim and clear their holds before they could complete the LMA deal. They couldn't use their bird rights to pay more at that point as it would have taken away Aldridge's cap money. They slotted LMA and fit right up to the cap. It was masterfully done.

They signed Tim first, then LMA. They actually renounced Manu and then used the Room Exception after they used up their cap space. When you include the Leonard and Green signings, as well as the Splitter trade, it truly was masterfully done.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They signed Tim first, then LMA. They actually renounced Manu and the used the Room Exception after they used up their cap space. When you include the Leonard and Green signings, as well as the Splitter trade, it truly was masterfully done.

Renouncing surrenders bird rights no?