The ultimate myth bust. The usage at the PG position doesn't change much when Patty

[midnightpulp]

checks in for Parker in the starting lineup or when Manu runs the point.

A hot topic in this forum is that when "MVPatty" checks in for Parker, he rightfully defers to Kawhi where Parker "freezes" everyone him looking for his. The evidence in support of this idea is citing Kawhi's increased usage alongside Patty, so the logic follows that the overall point guard usage is lower when Patty is in the game and that those additional shots that Parker would be taking are now (rightfully) going to Kawhi. There's also beliefs that Manu looks for Kawhi.

Those ideas is wrong. The PG (e.g. whoever is running the offense, and in many cases it's Manu) usage is nearly the same in a variety of lineups.

Parker's usage in the starting lineup:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/ddc8iq.jpg

Furthermore, Parker is anything but a "detriment" in this lineup. Although he's regressed over the past month, his overall season efficiency is good. He's second among starters in PPS and TS%.

Now for "MVPatty," the willing deferential passer to Kawhi that everyone loves, in the same lineup:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/yo6dd.jpg

Patty's usage is only 1.9 points lower than Parker's. LMA's usage takes about a 4 point hit, though, so Kawhi's increased usage alongside Patty has more to do with Parker and LMA probably being more active with each other in pick-and-roll sets (Patty can't run the pick-and-roll very well because he can't penetrate) than with Patty being some willing passer and Parker actively freezing Kawhi out to "look for his." That said, that unit has only played 44 minutes together, so let's see some Patty/Kawhi units with a larger sample size:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/mj1pud.jpg

Yes, Patty's usage is about 5 points lower than Parker's when Parker is in the SL, but in this lineup, Manu is basically the defacto PG and his usage is as nearly as high as Kawhi's! Some might say, "Well, Kawhi's usage increases by 3 points, so..." Of course it's going to since LMA isn't on the floor. So where's the outcry of, "Manu is freezing out Kawhi!"

Here's the lineup in which Kawhi, Manu and Patty have played in the most together:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/34rgjfq.jpg

Another lineup in which Patty is basically an SG with Manu running the offense, and you see Manu's usage is the 2nd highest in the unit. Patty is also the weak link in this lineup with a negative scoring index.

Let's compare that unit to the unit that features Tony, Manu, and Kawhi the most:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/veyvyu.jpg

Parker's usage is in the same ballpark. Kawhi's does take a hit, but LMA's increases, so again the reason for Kawhi's lower usage here is not because Parker is freezing everyone out to look for his, but because he's getting LMA involved, and any good PG should get their best bigs involved. Furthermore, this lineup is actually statistically better than the lineup above.

tl;dr - What did we learn?

Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony has everything to do with Tony getting LMA more involved via a two man game rather than Tony freezing Kawhi out. You can clearly see in all lineups that have a decent sample size that LMA's usage always drops when Parker is subbed out. Like I said, Patty can't run a good pick-and-roll because he's not a dribble-drive penetrator, so naturally LMA will get less touches that are now going to Kawhi.

Also, the usage does not change across the board for the player who happens to be running the Spurs offense. When Patty is in without Manu, his usage is nearly the same as Parker's. When Manu is in sans Parker, his usage is within the 20-23 range, roughly the same as Parker and Mills when they're running the offense.

All the evidence seems to point that the PGs (Mills, Parker, Manu) are operating how Pop's wants them to, since these 3 players aren't far apart usage wise when running the offense.

[Kawhitstorm]

tl;dr - What did we learn?

Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony has everything to do with Tony getting LMA more involved via a two man game rather than Tony freezing Kawhi out. You can clearly see in all lineups that have a decent sample size that LMA's usage always drops when Parker is subbed out. Like I said, Patty can't run a good pick-and-roll because he's not a dribble-drive penetrator, so naturally LMA will get less touches that are now going to Kawhi.

When Porker is in the game, Kawhi is finishing plays when Patty is in the game Kawhi is making plays.


All the evidence seems to point that the PGs (Mills, Parker, Manu) are operating how Pop's wants them to, since these 3 players aren't far apart usage wise when running the offense.

The only time Pop deviates from that is when he yells at his point guards to give the god damn ball to Kawhi & get out his way during crunch time.

[DMC]

Parker can't run the PnR because he has the court vision of Stevie Wonder.

[apalisoc_9]

When Porker is in the game, Kawhi is finishing plays when Patty is in the game Kawhi is making plays.



The only time Pop deviates from that is when he yells at his point guards to give the god damn ball to Kawhi & get out his way during crunch time.

:lol

Porker getting yelled at to give the ball to kawhi. What kind of other proof do you need op? That faggot will obviously prefer working with Aldridge cause its either its LA shot or his. Dude needs to call more downscreens play for kawhi in the first.

Short answer, Porker runs sets that result in 12 shots in 45 mins for kawhim hes essentially a retard that needs to have his roles significantly diminsed next year or should just retire.

Hes a detriment to this organization because the spurs will never trade him evven though playwise, they should.

[YGWHI]

Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony has everything to do with Tony getting LMA more involved via a two man game rather than Tony freezing Kawhi out. You can clearly see in all lineups that have a decent sample size that LMA's usage always drops when Parker is subbed out. Like I said, Patty can't run a good pick-and-roll because he's not a dribble-drive penetrator, so naturally LMA will get less touches that are now going to Kawhi.

If Parker as starter plays a lot more minutes than Patty in playoffs, that means Kawhi doesn't get plays/taking shots for 25/30 minutes because Parker only can play on offense with LMA?

So Kawhi only can get the ball when Parker's on the bench? That's a winning formula...

[apalisoc_9]

If Parker as starter plays a lot more minutes than Patty in playoffs, that means Kawhi doesn't get plays/taking shots for 25/30 minutes because Parker only can play on offense with LMA?

So Kawhi only can get the ball when Parker's on the bench? That's a winning formula...
Parker runs LMA plays because hes essentially the second option in those situations.

Hes a schemming faggot...he can resort to saying..but i wanted him to get going.
parker schemes to get his..thats who is.

[YGWHI]

Parker's usage is in the same ballpark. Kawhi's does take a hit, but LMA's increases, so again the reason for Kawhi's lower usage here is not because Parker is freezing everyone out to look for his, but because he's getting LMA involved, and any good PG should get their best bigs involved.

I wonder you don't think that any good PG should get the team-leading scorer and best perimeter player involved, too. Giving him the ball more often and not only play P&Rs with their bigs as the only way to score when he's on the court.

[YGWHI]

Parker's freezing Kawhi's offense 'cause he's only able to play with LMA...basically this thread said that Parker and Kawhi aren't compatible on the court.

And Parker said he expects to play 5 seasons more...We need to trade Kawhi. Or we need other starting PG who can play with our best player.

[midnightpulp]

I wonder you don't think that any good PG should get the team-leading scorer and best perimeter player involved, too. Giving him the ball more often and not only play P&Rs with their bigs as the only way to score when he's on the court.

Do you know how basketball works? Do I really have to post a 1000 set plays so that you might understand how players typically interact on the floor with each other?

I guess I have to use caps again.

PGS AND SFS RARELY PLAY TWO MAN GAMES WITH EACH OTHER. NO FUCKIN' SET, FROM HORNS TO THE TRIANGLE TO MOTION SETS TO FUCKIN' OCTOPUS SETS HAVE MORE THAN ONLY A FEW PLAYS AMONG THOUSANDS WHERE THE PG DRIBBLES UP AND THROWS THE BALL TO THE SF

Do you know what a PG's function is? Traditionally, it's to play through a big man. See, PG dribbles ball up. Makes entry pass to big man. Wing players move off ball, either to a spot up position or they cut. Big Man either looks for his shot or passes to an open wing. Do I have to post more fuckin' set plays to show you how 90% of plays start with a PG/Big initiating the offense?

When a PG and SF initiate the offense, the SF usually gives up the ball rather quickly, like in the Spurs various motion backdoor sets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDPGY7SqFg

To play some pnr two man game with Parker and Kawhi would be retarded.

[YGWHI]

To play some pnr two man game with Parker and Kawhi would be retarded.

Even if you don't want to play that two-man game, you made a thread to say that Parker-Kawhi aren't compatible on the court, that Parker only can get LMA involved so Kawhi will get the ball just when Parker is on the bench.


Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony has everything to do with Tony getting LMA more involved via a two man game...LMA's usage always drops when Parker is subbed out...

The Spurs should trade Kawhi. Or we can find another point guard who plays P&Rs with LMA but also, give Kawhi the ball.

[apalisoc_9]

On topic of sets, The triangle just reminded me how Phil was so dependant on superstars to win games. I've always hated the triangle because it required an elite post up big and a dominant perimter player on the weak side.

It also one of the very sets that can really stagnate if your 5 and 2/3 arent good playmakers. I'm not surprised its hardly used compared to Horns, pinch post etc.

The Horns is by Far the most beautiful set in all of basketball. The amount of offball movement it reguires makes it extrmely difficult to guard. Of course everything is about personel....

I'm surprised the Thunder dont use a lot of pinch post offense with Kanter/Westbrook. They would demolish every team in the 5-6 minutes or so they play together wihtout durant.

[GSH]

I'm bored with all the Tony/Patty crap. I looked at the first graph, and my only thought was, "Danny Fucking Green :depressed"

[midnightpulp]

Even if you don't want to play that two-man game, you made a thread to say that Parker-Kawhi aren't compatible on the court, that Parker only can get LMA involved so Kawhi will get the ball just when Parker is on the bench.



The Spurs should trade Kawhi. Or we can find another point guard who plays P&Rs with LMA but also, give Kawhi the ball.

Jesus, you're the biggest idiot on this forum. Parker and LMA being more compatible with each other than Parker is with Kawhi doesn't automatically fucking mean Parker and Kawhi aren't compatible at all.

Fitting you ended that sentence with, "Gib Bawl to Kiwi." Jesus fuckin' Christ, do I have re-emphasize how rare it is in any set for the PG to just dribble the ball up and dump the ball off to the SF? It does happen, but it's usually only the first action in a play, like in those motion sets I posted. Kawhi gets the ball from Tony only to quickly pass it off.

If Kawhi isn't getting the ball enough in LMA/Parker lineups, then the issue is with Pop wanting to establish that two man game over increasing Kawhi's usage. And I don't see a problem considering the Spurs are 65-14. We probably won't beat the Warriors, but it will have nothing to do with Kawhi and his touches, and everything to do with them just being a more talented team.

[313]

Solution; Kawhi increasing his ball handling skill and becoming more of a point forward. We won't see a noticeable improvement in that area til next season, so we'll have to live with MVPorker running the SL offense this year.

[midnightpulp]

On topic of sets, The triangle just reminded me how Phil was so dependant on superstars to win games. I've always hated the triangle because it required an elite post up big and a dominant perimter player on the weak side.

It also one of the very sets that can really stagnate if your 5 and 2/3 arent good playmakers. I'm not surprised its hardly used compared to Horns, pinch post etc.

The Horns is by Far the most beautiful set in all of basketball. The amount of offball movement it reguires makes it extrmely difficult to guard. Of course everything is about personel....

I'm surprised the Thunder dont use a lot of pinch post offense with Kanter/Westbrook. They would demolish every team in the 5-6 minutes or so they play together wihtout durant.

Yeah, the Triangle needs the correct personnel. Also, all five guys need to be able to pass well. The Spurs might be the only team with the right parts to run it right now, though. Running some triangle sets would put Kawhi is some good spots.

[YGWHI]

Jesus, you're the biggest idiot on this forum. Parker and LMA being more compatible with each other than Parker is with Kawhi doesn't automatically fucking mean Parker and Kawhi aren't compatible at all.

"At all" So cute.

Well, tell me how they're compatible...


If Kawhi isn't getting the ball enough in LMA/Parker lineups, then the issue is with Pop wanting to establish that two man game over increasing Kawhi's usage. And I don't see a problem considering the Spurs are 65-14. We probably won't beat the Warriors, but it will have nothing to do with Kawhi and his touches, and everything to do with them just being a more talented team.

If we lose with Parker taking the same or more shots than Kawhi in the series but with lower FG%...I wouldn't say that will have nothing to do with Kawhi being underused in the series.

Look at last game, Kawhi was so effective, 8-12, but Parker took almost the same shots in less minutes and was 3-10, if you don't think we need more offense from the more efficient scorer...

[YGWHI]

so we'll have to live with MVPorker running the SL offense this year.

So a PG running the offense can't pass the ball to the leading scorer of the team....

[midnightpulp]

"At all" So cute.

Well, tell me how they're compatible...

Kawhi has the highest TS%, PPP, PPS among the starting lineup. The Spurs are 65-14, and Kawhi is an MVP candidate. What more do you want? Oh, I know, for Kawhi to dominate the ball like Kobe Bryant and chuck to a sexy PPG.




If we lose with Parker taking the same or more shots than Kawhi in the series but with lower FG%...I wouldn't say that will have nothing to do with Kawhi being underused in the series.

Look at last game, Kawhi was so effective, 8-12, but Parker took almost the same shots in less minutes and was 3-10, if you don't think we need more offense from the more efficient scorer...

Tony only took 10 shots and had 2 FTAs. That isn't excessive for a player of his role. You'd have an argument if Tony took 20 shots and Kawhi took 18, but that wasn't the case. So what, you want Tony only taking 4 or 5 shots per game? Instead of blaming Tony here, why don't you blame Kawhi for not taking more shots? Since Tony only took 10 shots, it's not like he was taking all these shots away. Or like I always say, write a letter to Pop and ask him why he limits Kawhi's shot attempts.

[midnightpulp]

So a PG running the offense can't pass the ball to the leading scorer of the team....

Are you really this fuckin' stupid? Show me all the Spurs set plays that feature Tony setting up Kawhi to score? In fact, show me all the basketball plays that feature PGs setting up SFs? There's not many. The only plays I can think off hand would be drive-kick scenarios. And you don't like those because it "parks" Kawhi at the 3 point line.

It's obvious you're a Kawhi fan first. You want the entire team to sacrifice their games to detrimental levels so Kawhi can proverbially "eat more" and dominate the offense like a Kobe or Lebron.

[YGWHI]

Kawhi has the highest TS%, PPP, PPS among the starting lineup. The Spurs are 65-14, and Kawhi is an MVP candidate. What more do you want? Oh, I know, for Kawhi to dominate the ball like Kobe Bryant and chuck to a sexy PPG.

Those numbers just tell us that Kawhi has grown as a complete player and he's so efficient, but don't explain how they're compatible or the interaction between both in the same plays


Tony only took 10 shots and had 2 FTAs. That isn't excessive for a player of his role. You'd have an argument if Tony took 20 shots and Kawhi took 18, but that wasn't the case. So what, you want Tony only taking 4 or 5 shots per game? Instead of blaming Tony here, why don't you blame Kawhi for not taking more shots? Since Tony only took 10 shots, it's not like he was taking all these shots away. Or like I always say, write a letter to Pop and ask him why he limits Kawhi's shot attempts.

Since Kawhi plays most minutes with Parker and LMA..."Kawhi's lower usage has everything to do with Tony getting LMA more involved via a two man game...LMA's usage always drops when Parker is subbed out", -Parker taking the same shots than Kawhi when both are on the court, -Spurs trying to slow the pace...

Yeah...I wonder why I don't blame Kawhi.

[YGWHI]

Are you really this fuckin' stupid? Show me all the Spurs set plays that feature Tony setting up Kawhi to score? In fact, show me all the basketball plays that feature PGs setting up SFs? There's not many. The only plays I can think off hand would be drive-kick scenarios. And you don't like those because it "parks" Kawhi at the 3 point line.

First, you should show me Parker making an entry pass to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup. That would be a start.

Or Parker giving the ball to Kawhi to close a quarter like Manu or Mills have done it in some games this season...


It's obvious you're a Kawhi fan first. You want the entire team to sacrifice their games to detrimental levels so Kawhi can proverbially "eat more" and dominate the offense like a Kobe or Lebron.
Expecting that Parker not being a ball hog taking more shots than Kawhi/give Kawhi the ball to get him involved...is "to sacrifice the entire team" :lol

[midnightpulp]

Those numbers just tell us that Kawhi has grown as a complete player and he's so efficient, but don't explain how they're compatible or the interaction between both in the same plays

:bang :bang :bang

I don't know what you want. Or what proof you want that they're compatible? Like I've tried to get through your thick fuckin' skull, PGs and SFs don't play 2 man games, so how can there be any "compatibility" issues? If Kawhi isn't performing up to your dumbass standard alongside Tony, then it's something else that is affecting him in that lineup. There's more players on the floor than Tony.

Guess what? When we sub out Boris for Duncan, Kawhi's usage jumps 5 points. So are Duncan and Kawhi not compatible? When we sub out Green for Manu, Tony and Kawhi's usage remains about the same, but Manu eats 5 more usage points than Danny. Why aren't you calling out Manu for being "incompatible?" Oh, and the kicker. When we sub out LMA for West, Parker's usage remains the same, but Kawhi's jumps to 30! If Tony is actively ignoring Kawhi, then why didn't Kawhi's usage stay the same when LMA went out? Or why didn't Tony, the selfish player that he is, eat LMA's usage and take more shots for himself? So are Kawhi and LMA now incompatible?

Yeah, the reason for Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony and LMA is because Tony TRIES TO GET LMA GOING PER THE GAMEPLAN. And even then, it's not like Kawhi's usage is dangerously low for a player of his caliber.

That said, if you have a problem, send a letter to Pop. He seems to want to establish LMA and Tony, and then bookend that with Kawhi getting going.

[midnightpulp]

First, you should show me Parker making an entry pass to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup. That would be a start.

Or Parker giving the ball to Kawhi to close a quarter like Manu or Mills have done it in some games this season...


Expecting that Parker not being a ball hog taking more shots than Kawhi/give Kawhi the ball to get him involved...is "to sacrifice the entire team" :lol

Parker isn't a ballhog by any metric known to man, you dumbass.

And I've shown him making those passes in my first screencap thread. Parker has made multiple passes to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup. But it'll never be the norm like you want it to because coaches don't run many plays for 1-3 two man games. Deal with it.

[YGWHI]

Parker isn't a ballhog by any metric known to man, you dumbass.
Of course not :lol


And I've shown him making those passes in my first screencap thread. Parker has made multiple passes to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup. But it'll never be the norm like you want it to because coaches don't run many plays for 1-3 two man games. Deal with it.

:lol

[SquawkinHawkBigCock]

:lol new age retarded non-Spur Kawhi fans

[DenialTwist]

This is laughable. You must not watch the games.

[YGWHI]

This is laughable. You must not watch the games.

I love this part "Parker has made multiple passes to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup" :lmao

[TheDoctor]

Do you know how basketball works? Do I really have to post a 1000 set plays so that you might understand how players typically interact on the floor with each other?

I guess I have to use caps again.

PGS AND SFS RARELY PLAY TWO MAN GAMES WITH EACH OTHER. NO FUCKIN' SET, FROM HORNS TO THE TRIANGLE TO MOTION SETS TO FUCKIN' OCTOPUS SETS HAVE MORE THAN ONLY A FEW PLAYS AMONG THOUSANDS WHERE THE PG DRIBBLES UP AND THROWS THE BALL TO THE SF

Do you know what a PG's function is? Traditionally, it's to play through a big man. See, PG dribbles ball up. Makes entry pass to big man. Wing players move off ball, either to a spot up position or they cut. Big Man either looks for his shot or passes to an open wing. Do I have to post more fuckin' set plays to show you how 90% of plays start with a PG/Big initiating the offense?

When a PG and SF initiate the offense, the SF usually gives up the ball rather quickly, like in the Spurs various motion backdoor sets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDPGY7SqFg

To play some pnr two man game with Parker and Kawhi would be retarded.
LMAO at Kirby blocking Danny's at the end. Such a fucking carismatic scrub.

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol new age retarded non-Spur Kawhi fans
:lmao Vanilla scent posters

[K...]

ck to dividing the world into people who want Kawhi to spot up for three and the people who want him to iso every play. Good! Having to account for nuance or actually watch games tires me.


It sucks that this is now a kawhi thread. It was supposed to be kicking mills down. Mills is a nice player but he is 100% trade bait. He's aging out of his prime years. If he gets another contract it'll be a bonnor time role player thanks contract.

[DarrinS]

It would be nice if we had a bit more size and athleticism at the PG position. But, it is what it is.

[pgardn]

Parker isn't a ballhog by any metric known to man, you dumbass.

And I've shown him making those passes in my first screencap thread. Parker has made multiple passes to Kawhi when he has a favorable matchup. But it'll never be the norm like you want it to because coaches don't run many plays for 1-3 two man games. Deal with it.

Props for trying.

But you don't argue with an agenda.
I can see some folks becoming KL haters because of these fool posters.
This is exactly the game I would play as a poster who is not really a Spurs fan.
The crew are not fans of a team. Apo hoping for Parker to get injured...

[NameLess Scrub]

Thanks OP. I learned a little bit more about basketball.


:lol new age retarded non-Spur Kawhi fans


Is your sig a travel? Step-jump(2 steps)-dunk

[Kawhitstorm]

If Kawhi isn't getting the ball enough in LMA/Parker lineups, then the issue is with Pop wanting to establish that two man game over increasing Kawhi's usage. And I don't see a problem considering the Spurs are 65-14. We probably won't beat the Warriors, but it will have nothing to do with Kawhi and his touches, and everything to do with them just being a more talented team.

Folks have to blind not to notice that Pop wants to run the offense through LMA early & often which involves Porky running PnRs. During crunch time, Pop hasn't been hesitant to bench Porky in favor of Patty then run the offense through Kawhi whether it be isolations or PnP w/ LMA while Patty spots up on the strong side.

[gambit1990]

When Porker is in the game, Kawhi is finishing plays when Patty is in the game Kawhi is making plays.

Parker can't run the PnR because he has the court vision of Stevie Wonder.

This is laughable. You must not watch the games.

to op: not everything is numbers. the ball should be in kawhi's hand more than parker's. he was 8/12 against golden state. he needs the ball/more shots.

i still prefer patty over parker. i've never once seen patty hold the ball as long as parker. never.

i prefer miller over parker too.

[EVAY]

:bang :bang :bang

I don't know what you want. Or what proof you want that they're compatible? Like I've tried to get through your thick fuckin' skull, PGs and SFs don't play 2 man games, so how can there be any "compatibility" issues? If Kawhi isn't performing up to your dumbass standard alongside Tony, then it's something else that is affecting him in that lineup. There's more players on the floor than Tony.

Guess what? When we sub out Boris for Duncan, Kawhi's usage jumps 5 points. So are Duncan and Kawhi not compatible? When we sub out Green for Manu, Tony and Kawhi's usage remains about the same, but Manu eats 5 more usage points than Danny. Why aren't you calling out Manu for being "incompatible?" Oh, and the kicker. When we sub out LMA for West, Parker's usage remains the same, but Kawhi's jumps to 30! If Tony is actively ignoring Kawhi, then why didn't Kawhi's usage stay the same when LMA went out? Or why didn't Tony, the selfish player that he is, eat LMA's usage and take more shots for himself? So are Kawhi and LMA now incompatible?

Yeah, the reason for Kawhi's lower usage alongside Tony and LMA is because Tony TRIES TO GET LMA GOING PER THE GAMEPLAN. And even then, it's not like Kawhi's usage is dangerously low for a player of his caliber.

That said, if you have a problem, send a letter to Pop. He seems to want to establish LMA and Tony, and then bookend that with Kawhi getting going.

I applaud your attempts to insert reason and rationality to this issue. Unfortunately, I don't think you have a snowball's chance in hell of making a dent in the perception of KL fans who don't understand what they are watching.

It seems impossible to me that people do not understand that in most games, Tony gets LMA going early and that is by design - Pop's design. Why would Pop want to start games like that? Gee, I wonder...maybe because if it is successful and LMA gets the attention of lots of the defensive players on the other team, it could conceivably open up the game and court for other players (maybe someone like Kawhi, for instance?) to create their own shot in the open court later in the game as the defense sets itself against the 2 man pick and roll.

If people haven't noticed the pattern of LMA taking more shots early and KL taking more shots late in games as indicative of a game plan, there is little you can do to change that.

Goof on you for trying, though.

[dabom]

I applaud your attempts to insert reason and rationality to this issue. Unfortunately, I don't think you have a snowball's chance in hell of making a dent in the perception of KL fans who don't understand what they are watching.

It seems impossible to me that people do not understand that in most games, Tony gets LMA going early and that is by design - Pop's design. Why would Pop want to start games like that? Gee, I wonder...maybe because if it is successful and LMA gets the attention of lots of the defensive players on the other team, it could conceivably open up the game and court for other players (maybe someone like Kawhi, for instance?) to create their own shot in the open court later in the game as the defense sets itself against the 2 man pick and roll.

If people haven't noticed the pattern of LMA taking more shots early and KL taking more shots late in games as indicative of a game plan, there is little you can do to change that.

Goof on you for trying, though.

Someone tell Porker to stop freezing out Kawhi in the fourth then. :lmao

[DMC]

The issue here is that the Pakerstans think we are talking about 2007 Tony Parker, or talking about his peak years as if he was nothing. Tony is a future HOFer, like Tim. Neither should be the go to person on offense now however. I wouldn't want Kobe handling the ball either if he was on our team. It's not a slight against Parker, he just doesn't have court vision (never did) and these days lacks the athleticism and quickness to compensate for that lack of vision. He can't defer as easily as he could, so he's forced to find his shot as if the future of the Spurs hinges on him finding his shot. It doesn't.

[midnightpulp]

The issue here is that the Pakerstans think we are talking about 2007 Tony Parker, or talking about his peak years as if he was nothing. Tony is a future HOFer, like Tim. Neither should be the go to person on offense now however. I wouldn't want Kobe handling the ball either if he was on our team. It's not a slight against Parker, he just doesn't have court vision (never did) and these days lacks the athleticism and quickness to compensate for that lack of vision. He can't defer as easily as he could, so he's forced to find his shot as if the future of the Spurs hinges on him finding his shot. It doesn't.

I agree with that, and I'm not suggesting he be a go to guy. I'm just debunking the myth that Tony is taking away Kawhi's usage and giving it to himself. We see that when LMA exits for David West, Kawhi's usage climbs to Kobe-level, and that's with Parker still on the floor. When Mills checks in for Parker, his usage is roughly the same as Parker's, but LMA's is reduced. So the reason for Kawhi's lower usage in Tony and LMA lineups is because LMA is being used more not because Parker is going "Enrique" mode.

And my advocating of Tony being the 3rd guy has less to do with Tony and more to do with the fact that every role player on this team is an inconsistent mess offensively, especially the backcourt players. I would love for Manu to assume 3rd guy role, but I don't think he can. To beat the Warriors, we're going to need a 3rd option who can score a consistent 15 points per game and pop off for a 20 point plus game . Doing this by "committee" isn't going to work. Too many moving parts.

Maybe Boris can step into that role, since he seemed to excel last game against them. I don't know.

[DMC]

I agree with that, and I'm not suggesting he be a go to guy. I'm just debunking the myth that Tony is taking away Kawhi's usage and giving it to himself. We see that when LMA exits for David West, Kawhi's usage climbs to Kobe-level, and that's with Parker still on the floor. When Mills checks in for Parker, his usage is roughly the same as Parker's, but LMA's is reduced. So the reason for Kawhi's lower usage in Tony and LMA lineups is because LMA is being used more not because Parker is going "Enrique" mode.

There are plenty instances where Tony has the green light to pass or shoot and he chooses to look for his shot when the rest of the world thinks he should pass. He's notorious for freezing out a guy who's on a tear. He plays by Pop's every command, so he's rarely looking to create anything. When he does need to create, it's most often for Tony. When a play breaks down, the result is most often Tony shoots or passes just prior to the shot clock violation. This isn't new.


And my advocating of Tony being the 3rd guy has less to do with Tony and more to do with the fact that every role player on this team is an inconsistent mess offensively, especially the backcourt players. I would love for Manu to assume 3rd guy role, but I don't think he can. To beat the Warriors, we're going to need a 3rd option who can score a consistent 15 points per game and pop off for a 20 point plus game . Doing this by "committee" isn't going to work. Too many moving parts.

Maybe Boris can step into that role, since he seemed to excel last game against them. I don't know.

No one is going to step into that role because GS won't let them. Our problem with GS is that we expend too much energy covering Steph and Klay, and don't have any for the offensive end of the floor. More recently it's been that Pop keeps changing the road map and getting everyone lost again. Pop is about 50/50 to pull some "look at me" experiment in the playoffs that costs him the series against any team. I think Pop loves it when the media is buzzing about why Gregg Popovich pulled Tim, or why he's fouling intentionally up 12 in the 2nd quarter. Pop is a genius! You like to think he's gotten over himself but oddly I think he hasn't. The same ego that fuels the wins can fuel the losses, and anyone who says Pop doesn't have an ego doesn't understand competition.

Unlike almost every other team in the league, the Spurs aren't playing basketball - their coach is playing basketball and they are simply doing what he says. Pop has more moment to moment control of the game than any coach in the league, and at times that's good and at times that's bad.

[midnightpulp]

There are plenty instances where Tony has the green light to pass or shoot and he chooses to look for his shot when the rest of the world thinks he should pass. He's notorious for freezing out a guy who's on a tear. He plays by Pop's every command, so he's rarely looking to create anything. When he does need to create, it's most often for Tony. When a play breaks down, the result is most often Tony shoots or passes just prior to the shot clock violation. This isn't new.

Every player has selfish instances, but Tony has ran the Spurs offense over the years properly. And no star Spur has frustrated me over the years more than him, but that has more to do with his lack of clutchness (Tony's M.O. though-out the years has to been to destroy a playoff opponent in the first couple of games, the opponent makes an adjustment, and Tony gets neutralized) than with any selfishness.



No one is going to step into that role because GS won't let them. Our problem with GS is that we expend too much energy covering Steph and Klay, and don't have any for the offensive end of the floor. More recently it's been that Pop keeps changing the road map and getting everyone lost again. Pop is about 50/50 to pull some "look at me" experiment in the playoffs that costs him the series against any team. I think Pop loves it when the media is buzzing about why Gregg Popovich pulled Tim, or why he's fouling intentionally up 12 in the 2nd quarter. Pop is a genius! You like to think he's gotten over himself but oddly I think he hasn't. The same ego that fuels the wins can fuel the losses, and anyone who says Pop doesn't have an ego doesn't understand competition.

It seems the role players can't even step into that role against scrub teams these days. I'm highly worried about that. No one seems able to score on this team, consistently, aside from LMA and Kawhi. What happens when they're having an off night? Where's our Lamar Odom, Chris Bosh, Draymond Green, Jason Terry? The only time I recall a "committee" gameplan working in NBA history was 2014 and to extent the 2004 Pistons title team. I'm not saying you're supporting a committee, just highlighting its flawed nature if one the usual idiots reads this reply.

[DMC]

Every player has selfish instances, but Tony has ran the Spurs offense over the years properly. And no star Spur has frustrated me over the years more than him, but that has more to do with his lack of clutchness (Tony's M.O. though-out the years has to been to destroy a playoff opponent in the first couple of games, the opponent makes an adjustment, and Tony gets neutralized) than with any selfishness.




It seems the role players can't even step into that role against scrub teams these days. I'm highly worried about that. No one seems able to score on this team, consistently, aside from LMA and Kawhi. What happens when they're having an off night? Where's our Lamar Odom, Chris Bosh, Draymond Green, Jason Terry? The only time I recall a "committee" gameplan working in NBA history was 2014 and to extent the 2004 Pistons title team. I'm not saying you're supporting a committee, just highlighting its flawed nature if one the usual idiots reads this reply.

You need to come back down to Earth, at least until you discover otherwise, and realize Patty Mills, Danny Green and Boris Diaw were all waived by their other teams. Other than Boris, they've played universes above their expected levels up until recently. Even then, we don't even have the big 3 anymore. We have Manu who, in my opinion, is still the "still has it" guy of the three. Tony and Tim are so much less now than they were back then that it's almost impossible to imagine them being the catalysts for any deep pushes into the playoffs. Tim is amazing, wouldn't shock me for him to have a return to his glory days in a series, but the team is now Aldridge and Kawhi, and the latter seems to get jitters in big games early on. For a superstar with his resume, that's unnerving for a fan.

So just don't expect too much from them. If you get it, you'll be elated. If you don't, just appreciate they didn't go out like that faggot in LA.

[midnightpulp]

You need to come back down to Earth, at least until you discover otherwise, and realize Patty Mills, Danny Green and Boris Diaw were all waived by their other teams. Other than Boris, they've played universes above their expected levels up until recently. Even then, we don't even have the big 3 anymore. We have Manu who, in my opinion, is still the "still has it" guy of the three. Tony and Tim are so much less now than they were back then that it's almost impossible to imagine them being the catalysts for any deep pushes into the playoffs. Tim is amazing, wouldn't shock me for him to have a return to his glory days in a series, but the team is now Aldridge and Kawhi, and the latter seems to get jitters in big games early on. For a superstar with his resume, that's unnerving for a fan.

So just don't expect too much from them. If you get it, you'll be elated. If you don't, just appreciate they didn't go out like that faggot in LA.

Oh, I've been back down to Earth for awhile. I've been calling Danny "D-League," Patty "Patty House," and Boris "Fatass" for the past 2 months. I love those guys, but my nicknames are basically an acknowledgement of their limitations. It's also why I think the 3rd scorer committee is pants on head stupid. The 3rd guy is going to have to be a former big gun, like Tony, Tim, or Manu.

I don't expect it, just hope for it.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDPGY7SqFg

To play some pnr two man game with Parker and Kawhi would be retarded.
0:45 - 1:06 :lmao

[midnightpulp]

0:45 - 1:06 :lmao

:lol D-League

[south side spur]

When did Kobe or Bron Bron ever need a point guard to get them involved? Kawhi has to be more aggressive it's that simple. So what he was 8-12 there are always players who you can look at a box score after the fact and ask why weren't they more involved because their team lost. If you're an alpha you're an alpha you don't deflect. If Kawhi isn't "getting his" that's on him. Parker and Leonard are both playing within the system. If you blame anyone for not getting Kawhi involved then you have to blame Kawhi as well for deferring. Parker has to create more for Kawhi? No supposed great ever needed that.

[YGWHI]

When did Kobe or Bron Bron ever need a point guard to get them involved? Kawhi has to be more aggressive it's that simple. So what he was 8-12 there are always players who you can look at a box score after the fact and ask why weren't they more involved because their team lost. If you're an alpha you're an alpha you don't deflect. If Kawhi isn't "getting his" that's on him. Parker and Leonard are both playing within the system. If you blame anyone for not getting Kawhi involved then you have to blame Kawhi as well for deferring. Parker has to create more for Kawhi? No supposed great ever needed that.

Tell me when Lebron has to ask for the ball to Irving or Dellavedova?

We saw in many games that Kawhi asked for the ball to Parker in the 2nd half and Parker called a play for his own shot...

Remember the game against Thunder in SA? Pop called Parker out for not giving the ball to Kawhi.

[YGWHI]

But you don't argue with an agenda.
I can see some folks becoming KL haters because of these fool posters.

No. It's not a casualty that all those Kawhi's haters are Parker stans, too.

They can't handle these things...


to op: not everything is numbers. the ball should be in kawhi's hand more than parker's. he was 8/12 against golden state. he needs the ball/more shots.



There are plenty instances where Tony has the green light to pass or shoot and he chooses to look for his shot when the rest of the world thinks he should pass. He's notorious for freezing out a guy who's on a tear. He plays by Pop's every command, so he's rarely looking to create anything. When he does need to create, it's most often for Tony. When a play breaks down, the result is most often Tony shoots or passes just prior to the shot clock violation. This isn't new

[south side spur]

You're making my point. Those players don't need their coach to call a time out for them. It's known...they take the ball. He's just not at that level confidence wise. Kobe needs a time out called to get him the ball? Kawhi has had the ball countless times only to keep it moving and play within the system. You want him to play outside the system and look for his, right? That's on him. He's just got Pop in his head and knows he has to make the right play. For what you want to happen the thought has to be "I'm carrying my team they need me to score."

[YGWHI]

You're making my point. Those players don't need their coach to call a time out for them. It's known...they take the ball.
How Kawhi can take the ball when the ball is in Parker hands most game? He should hit him?

[south side spur]

How do Lebron or Kobe end up with the ball? There's your answer. Kawhi is just not a domineering personality. There's your answer as to why he's not involved as much as you want. A coach or teammate can't control that. He has to be more vocal. That's how anyone gets their interests realized. The same qualities that we criticize Bron Bron and Kobe for are what put the ball in their hands. There is no miscommunication with the team as to who will have the ball in their hands.

[YGWHI]

He has to be more vocal.
:lol

If you didn't watch Kawhi asking for the ball having a favorable matchup in the post and Parker not giving the ball to him...I can't help.

He has been very vocal this season and asked for the ball on the court...You're expecting that Kawhi call Parker out in front of the media or something like that, that won't happen.

[YGWHI]

he's not involved as much as you want.
If I want Kawhi to be involved is because the Spurs will need his offense against the Warriors in playoffs, not because of Kawhi.

[south side spur]

How can he be vocal enough yet not have the ball enough? Everyone knows Lebron and Kobe NEVER had this issue. You want Kawhi to be an alpha that doesn't have to project it. Good luck

[YGWHI]

How can he be vocal enough yet not have the ball enough?
Well, you should ask Parker...


Kawhi to be an alpha that doesn't have to project it. Good luck
I love how people say these things..."Kawhi wasn't, isn't, will never be..." Unlike them, I wouldn't bet Kawhi Leonard. :claw

[south side spur]

If I want Kawhi to be involved is because the Spurs will need his offense against the Warriors in playoffs, not because of Kawhi.

You and I both. I want Kawhi to be the focal point as much as anyone else. There's only one problem. He has to want to be that not us.

[YGWHI]

He has to want to be that not us.
If you think he doesn't, you didn't hear him this season or the Spurs development coaches.