Report: Spurs set to bring over Livio Jean-Charles

[Uriel]

It seems the San Antonio Spurs will be bringing over another foreign prospect next season. (http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/report-spurs-to-sign-foreign-prospect-livio-jean-charles)According to reports (via Basket-Infos (http://basket-infos.com/)), at a press conference today, Tony Parker announced the Spurs will bring over French guard and 2013 NBA draft pick, Livio Jean-Charles.


Tony Parker just gave the name of one of them. This is indeed his player Livio Jean-Charles . For the moment we do not know exactly what the terms of the contract but it is going to cross the Atlantic to join the Texans (Spurs).


Jean-Charles spent last season with French club ASVEL, the same team Parkers owns and serves as President. He averaged 5.9 and 4.6 rebounds in 21 minutes in the regular season and 7.5 points, and 4.8 rebounds in 26 minutes over 11 games in the playoffs.

It should be noted, Livio suffered a torn right knee ACL in 2013 while playing for the French National team that required surgery, however, he has bounced back and has remained healthy.

Terms of the contract are unknown, however, the Spurs have been reported to sign another foreign prospect, Latvian forward Davis Bertans, to a minimum contract so expect Livio to be offered the same.

Livio is a 6'9 forward and can dribble-penetrate, and defensively can challenge at the rim. He has a nice midrange shot but needs to add size, and dribbling ability. In 2013, he stole the show at the Nike Hoop Summit which led him to declare himself for the 2013 draft. (http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/report-spurs-to-sign-foreign-prospect-livio-jean-charles)
http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/report-spurs-to-sign-foreign-prospect-livio-jean-charles

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

wtf

[SpursFan86]

Posted this in the other offseason topic, but could this just be a partially-guaranteed training camp deal? Or would they likely not do that with someone like LJC?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Posted this in the other offseason topic, but could this just be a partially-guaranteed training camp deal? Or would they likely not do that with someone like LJC?

Since he was a first rounder, it's guaranteed.

[Spurs9]

Sweet, I welcome all of the rookies, glad we aren't trying to roll with the same team.

[CGD]

Not surprising if true.

Here's hoping he turns into a poor man's Serge!

[Kawhitstorm]

Since he was a first rounder, it's guaranteed.

He's essentially taking Butler's spot

[jyra]

Posted this in the other offseason topic, but could this just be a partially-guaranteed training camp deal? Or would they likely not do that with someone like LJC?

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51


After three years they have the option of either using the salary scale or signing him as if he was a free agent -- using their cap room or any available exception, with the standard raises. They can only do the latter if the player did not play intercollegiately in the interim. Such a contract must be for at least three seasons, and the salary in the first season must be greater than 120% of the applicable rookie scale amount.

It doesn't explicitly say if those years have to be guaranteed, so I'm not too sure about that part.

Edit: Ignore what I said. They can just sign him with the rookie scale, so the first two years are guaranteed.

[CGD]

Also probably means no Mulitinov this summer. Doubt Pop carries more than 3 rookies (Bertans, LCJ, and Murray). Maybe Hanga since he's older?

[Mr. Body]

Utterly unimpressed by this player.

[TheCerebral1]

It will be interesting to get a chance to see him in the Spurs system. He does have decent size at 6'9".

[Chinook]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51



It doesn't explicitly say if those years have to be guaranteed, so I'm not too sure about that part.

Eh, Bruno and I talked about this last year. It would likely be a major CBA issue if the first two seasons weren't guaranteed. Remember that the league doesn't believe in loopholes. the intention of that rule is to allow players to make more by waiting, not to allow teams to pay less by doing so.

All this is moot, however, because LJC would likely take the rookie-scale deal, which gives more flexibility to the team.

[BillMc]

Could this mean they're having trouble negotiating with Bertans and have moved on to their next import?

Or it might mean something about the future of Boris....

[Chinook]

And btb, neither one is getting a minimum deal.

[Chinook]

Could this mean they're having trouble negotiating with Bertans and have moved on to their next import?

Or it might mean something about the future of Boris....

Nah, it just means that LJC is a free agent and now has unilateral authority to take his rookie-scale deal. More practically, it means he and the team had previously agreed on this season, and the organization is keeping their word since LJC did them a solid by staying in France.

[TheGoldStandard]

Meh move.. Spurs attempt at going young.. Charles may wake up one day and get it but I don't know.,. Spurs will at least make him serviceable while he is here.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Duncan/Boban
Aldridge/Diaw/Livio
Kawhi/Kyle
Green/Manu/Simmons
Tony/Mills/Murray

[J_Paco]

Shit, probably means no Multinov even though he's the more polished prospect. Doesn't this FO realize we need to get better inside?

Picking up LCJ does nothing to help remedy that fact.

[elemento]

Finally. He pretty much wasted his time in France (sorry TP). I hope they bring Bertans over as well.

I'd be happy he if could become a Mbah Moute with more offense.

[FromWayDowntown]

If that roster has 3 rookies when the lights go on, Pop's aversion to playing kids must mean that he's gearing up to Thibodeau his vets next season.

[Chinook]

If that roster has 3 rookies when the lights go on, Pop's aversion to playing kids must mean that he's gearing up to Thibodeau his vets next season.

I'm actually assuming there will be at least one more. No way they fill out that big-man rotation with all vets.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Klay Thompson stopper?

[Keepin' it real]

It will be interesting to get a chance to see him in the Spurs system. He does have decent size at 6'9".

David West is 6'9". Didn't help against OKC.

[Chinook]

David West is 6'9". Didn't help against OKC.

Would have been fine as a four. That's especially true given Jean-Charles' superior mobility and timing. My biggest worry , honestly is that he seems to have those Jeff Ayres stone hands.

[Keepin' it real]

Livio is a 6'9 forward and can dribble-penetrate, and defensively can challenge at the rim. He has a nice midrange shot but needs to add size, and dribbling ability. (http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/report-spurs-to-sign-foreign-prospect-livio-jean-charles)

Like what, grow to be 7'1" ???

[loveforthegame]

Of all years. But hopefully in a top notch system with this group of guys he can start to put some of that promise together finally. Or maybe he busts.

[Das Texan]

Diaw is so not coming back.

[Keepin' it real]

Would have been fine as a four. That's especially true given Jean-Charles' superior mobility and timing. My biggest worry , honestly is that he seems to have those Jeff Ayres stone hands.

https://memecrunch.com/meme/9GZV5/even-i-m-disgusted/image.png?w=500&c=1

[TheGoldStandard]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/9GZV5/even-i-m-disgusted/image.png?w=500&c=1


could have been Ayres real dad.

[FvckMavs]

If they sign two rookies, they won't have a max space unless they trade Green or Parker.

[Chinook]

If they sign two rookies, they won't have a max space unless they trade Green or Parker.

That's true, but Bertans already took them out of that sweepstakes. It also doesn't sound like Parker even thinks him being traded is a possibility.

[rjv]

David West is 6'9". Didn't help against OKC.

it's really about matchups. it's not an easy landscape for an FO to traverse through. you have to be able to deal with the likes of a GS roster which is substantially different from the lineups that an OKC or Cleveland can throw at you (not to mention the clippers). a player who might not be able to give you much in one series can be a life-save in another.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Utterly unimpressed by this player.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

That's true, but Bertans already took them out of that sweepstakes. It also doesn't sound like Parker even thinks him being traded is a possibility.

Trading Diaw and Mills won't be able to free up max room? RC's comment that Murray might not play in SL because of the sequence of contract signings makes me think they're still going to try for max room.

[Keepin' it real]

it's really about matchups. it's not an easy landscape for an FO to traverse through. you have to be able to deal with the likes of a GS roster which is substantially different from the lineups that an OKC or Cleveland can throw at you (not to mention the clippers). a player who might not be able to give you much in one series can be a life-save in another.

I agree, the Spurs built themselves to beat GS, but then OKC happened. I guess it's fine to have a youthful athletic 6'9" guy replace West/Diaw if one or both leave, but that still leaves a gaping hole at center. I know we have all offseason, but seeing Bertans, Murray and now LJC does nothing to address the missing big(s).

[Chinook]

Trading Diaw and Mills won't be able to free up max room? RC's comment that Murray might not play in SL because of the sequence of contract signings makes me think they're still going to try for max room.

Indeed. But Bertans is going to make more than Murray and LJC combined. It was already absurdly close. Now, the Spurs would need to free up about another $3 Million even after Mill and Diaw.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Sweet, I welcome all of the rookies, glad we aren't trying to roll with the same team.

You mean the same team that won 67 games last season? This guy is unimpressive.

[ulosturedge]

Lol I don't know where they get that this dude can dribble. Didn't see any dribble penetration last year in summer league. Dude can't dribble and had a poor jumpshot.

He's being brought in for defense. He has a decent motor and good athleticism. If he's improved on his dribble and shot that would be a bonus.

[coachmac87]

Waste of a roster spot. This will be the worst move of the offseason

[skulls138]

I agree, the Spurs built themselves to beat GS, but then OKC happened. I guess it's fine to have a youthful athletic 6'9" guy replace West/Diaw if one or both leave, but that still leaves a gaping hole at center. I know we have all offseason, but seeing Bertans, Murray and now LJC does nothing to address the missing big(s).And then GS got beat by Cleveland. Summary? Size still matters in the playoffs! We need a C/PF.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Indeed. But Bertans is going to make more than Murray and LJC combined. It was already absurdly close. Now, the Spurs would need to free up about another $3 Million even after Mill and Diaw.

Would you agree that RC's comment means they're still attempting the max route? If so, how would you go about doing that?

[SpursFan86]

It also doesn't sound like Parker even thinks him being traded is a possibility.

Maybe I'm overestimating the Spurs' loyalty to Parker, but I honestly don't think there's a chance in hell he gets traded. I don't care how bad his contract might look, I can't see the Spurs getting rid of him like that.

[FvckMavs]

Not sure if they will pay Bertans 2.4m a year. If they do, can they fit him in an exception? Otherwise there is no way to get the max space.


Indeed. But Bertans is going to make more than Murray and LJC combined. It was already absurdly close. Now, the Spurs would need to free up about another $3 Million even after Mill and Diaw.

[Kawhitstorm]

Trading Diaw and Mills won't be able to free up max room? RC's comment that Murray might not play in SL because of the sequence of contract signings makes me think they're still going to try for max room.

Just became they want cap flexibility, it doesn't mean it's for a max room.

[Chinook]

Not sure if they will pay Bertans 2.4m a year. If they do, can they fit him in an exception? Otherwise there is no way to get the max space.

They can fit him into either exception (room or LLE). I do firmly believe he'll get $2 Million. The dude wasn't making peanuts in Europe.

[Spurs9]

You mean the same team that won 67 games last season? This guy is unimpressive.
Doesn't matter how many wins if you don't have a team that can get past the thunder, warriors or cavs.

[Mr. Body]

Maybe I'm overestimating the Spurs' loyalty to Parker, but I honestly don't think there's a chance in hell he gets traded. I don't care how bad his contract might look, I can't see the Spurs getting rid of him like that.

There's not a chance Parker gets traded.

[Chinook]

Would you agree that RC's comment means they're still attempting the max route? If so, how would you go about doing that?

I think it means they are trying to get Murray to take less. I would hope that's only because they think they could need it, but they could just be assholes. We can act like, "Oh, they wouldn't..." but they've done to many damned times already.

Anyway, I don't think so anymore. The Spurs will need to move Green or Parker to make the room, and them doing so would free up more than enough room for Murray's contract to factor in at all. I think they'll want the cap space just in case.

[FvckMavs]

They can fit him into either exception (room or LLE). I do firmly believe he'll get $2 Million. The dude wasn't making peanuts in Europe.

If they can fit him into an exception, they may be able to have about 26m if they get rid of Anderson, Simmons, Mills and Diaw, while adding two first rounds.
I also wonder if they can split the room exception between LJC and Bertans. They may have more space if they can do so.

[CGD]

Indeed. But Bertans is going to make more than Murray and LJC combined. It was already absurdly close. Now, the Spurs would need to free up about another $3 Million even after Mill and Diaw.

There is only one guy the Spurs would max and that's durant. They can easily dump Danny to make the space. Otherwise no one else moves the needle requiring them to operate with more than the available 20m they already have.

[baseline bum]

Blech, this guy sucks and was a waste of a first round pick.

[Mr. Body]

Blech, this guy sucks and was a waste of a first round pick.

Agree. He was a big reach even then.

[Kawhitstorm]

Finally. He pretty much wasted his time in France (sorry TP). I hope they bring Bertans over as well.

I'd be happy he if could become a Mbah Moute with more offense.'

LJC more athletic than Moute & can finish at the rim. He's also a garbage man instead of a mediocre 3-&-D player. He's basically what Aminu was on the Hornets & would be playing the Jeff Ayres role.:lol

[SpursFan86]

'

LJC more athletic than Moute & can finish at the rim. He's also a garbage man instead of a mediocre 3-&-D player. He's basically what Aminu was on the Clippers & would be playing the Jeff Ayres role.:lol

Can he finish at the rim? I seem to recall last summer league he just looked completely inept offensively. Couldn't catch for shit, and when he did, couldn't finish.

I agree with the Aminu comparison though - that's who I first thought of as well. LJC has the potential to bring that same defense/rebounding. Just needs to learn to catch the ball and finish around the rim and he'll be solid IMO.

[Chinook]

If they can fit him into an exception, they may be able to have about 26m if they get rid of Anderson, Simmons, Mills and Diaw, while adding two first rounds.

Yes, they'd have enough essentially enough (they'd be about $200k short). But that would leave:

Parker, Murray
Leonard, Green
Durant, Bertans
Aldridge, LJC
Nothing

With only part of the room exception (like so small it's not really worth it to discuss) and min deals left. I'm sure the team will get some ring-chasers, Duncan and Manu potentially being among them. But that's VERY shaky.

[Kawhitstorm]

Can he finish at the rim? I seem to recall last summer league he just looked completely inept offensively. Couldn't catch for shit, and when he did, couldn't finish.

He has the same issues as Ayres but isn't as much of a disaster even Ezeli sucks at catching the ball.:lol

[montgod]

To me he is a poor mans Aminu. He can at least play some defense and block shots (7'2 wingspan) which is pretty much what he showed in summer league last year. Hopefully coaching will help him improve other areas to be a little more serviceable than just that along with gaining some much needed weight. We can only hope the reason for his minimal growth was because of his injury. He should be fully healthy now.

[Chinook]

He seems like a smart player, too. Hope he's in the summer league.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Doesn't matter how many wins if you don't have a team that can get past the thunder, warriors or cavs.

Pop's boneheaded lineups were mostly to blame..

[ceperez]

He's got elite defensive talent, but likely has a very low basketball IQ. If he develops like a Danny Green (3 and D) player, where he doesn't have to come up with some elite moves, then he should be serviceable. I guess like Aminu.

[TheGoldStandard]

What I'm really enjoying about all of this is the potential of having an insanely competitive Summer League and training camp. All these young guys pushing each other for roster spots and competing.. Should make things very interesting and might motivate the older vets to push harder to keep up.

[duncan2150]

He was way better this season and more consistent with Asvel. He doesn't take a lot of fg but he can rebound and defend.

The injury two years ago really hurt him.

[objective]

Good for LJC.

I don't have much hope that he can play in the NBA though after watching some of his ASVEL games. But he'll be the 15th man in Austin, and the 15th spot isn't going to matter much, might as well let him earn a little money while he can.

[look_at_g_shred]

All I expect from Livio is rim protection and rebounding. What more can you ask for?

[ducks]

for those that do not know him
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212735

[elemento]

'

LJC more athletic than Moute & can finish at the rim. He's also a garbage man instead of a mediocre 3-&-D player. He's basically what Aminu was on the Hornets & would be playing the Jeff Ayres role.:lol

Pre-injury Moute was pretty athletic too. The problem is that he could never develop an offensive game or a 3p shot. He basically made a name in the NBA because of his ability to defend multiple positions.

My feeling about LJC is that he will play better in an more organized system like ours. People are down on him because he wasn't destroying the competition in France, but he is really not that kind of player and his injury did not help him .

He has the physical tools to play in the NBA (unlike Nando who's a star in Europe but lacks athleticism to play in the NBA). I don't expect a star or anything like that, but I think he could be a solid contributor as a role player, especially if he develops a 3p shot.

[elemento]

All I expect from Livio is rim protection and rebounding. What more can you ask for?

if he could develop a reliable 3p shot it would be amazing for him and the team.

[raybies]

Thoughts on Livio signing:

First of all this is what I expected and was happy about it. He's a tool in the shed. He's spent last year back defining his role and is ready made for a need the spurs have. He can shoot the mid range shot to space the floor and his accuracy has been improving. On offense he can pick and roll or pick and pop effectively which fits a need cause Duncan and Aldridge cant really roll well. Defensively he can guard three positions; small forward, pf, and small ball center and he is a terrific defender. He can guard on the perimeter and in the post using great lateral skills and possessing elite length. For the third string pf, he's a good signing. He's not an all star or anything like that he's just a role player that has strengths you want as a base for a four; defense and rebounding. But yeah he is a garbage guy and might find a niche as a glue guy. He doesn't need the ball to make an impact. He's not flashy, just a blue collar garbage guy.

[tholdren]

Would have been fine as a four. That's especially true given Jean-Charles' superior mobility and timing. My biggest worry , honestly is that he seems to have those Jeff Ayres stone hands.
Dude can only do one thing at a time, there must be silence when he runs or he gets confused. Please bring up the draft thread of this oaf.

[SAGirl]

I'm actually assuming there will be at least one more. No way they fill out that big-man rotation with all vets.
Yep, I think Cady is going to have a hard road to make the team but he's due his tender like Thomas and he too agreed to be stashed in the dleague. He's getting at least to training camp. Milutinov declining playing for Serbia and coming to SL still means to me at least the chance he can make the team as well. And he plays a position of need, specially if TD retires. Whether Pop likes it or not, he's getting at least another big.

[spurraider21]

Not excited about him as of now, but I'm hoping he shocks me

[raybies]

Yep, I think Cady is going to have a hard road to make the team but he's due his tender like Thomas and he too agreed to be stashed in the dleague. He's getting at least to training camp. Milutinov declining playing for Serbia and coming to SL still means to me at least the chance he can make the team as well. And he plays a position of need, specially if TD retires. Whether Pop likes it or not, he's getting at least another big.

I think whether or not Milutinov comes over is contingent to if Duncan retires or plays. But he would definitely fill a need and imo would be playable day one. He's a humble kid who doesn't make many mistakes. He plays hard and knows his role. He's an energy big and relentless on the boards not to mention he's great at rolling in the pick and roll. Reminds me of splitter somewhat.

[ceperez]

Yep, I think Cady is going to have a hard road to make the team but he's due his tender like Thomas and he too agreed to be stashed in the dleague. He's getting at least to training camp. Milutinov declining playing for Serbia and coming to SL still means to me at least the chance he can make the team as well. And he plays a position of need, specially if TD retires. Whether Pop likes it or not, he's getting at least another big.

The difference between Caddy and LJC is that that Caddy has a better touch from outside and has a much longer wingspan. LJC however is much quicker and may likely be able to defend against a wing player. If all LJC ever did was play defense, rebound and take the open 3, then he'll be serviceable with the Spurs. Incidentally, both players don't know how to pass..

[Chinook]

Yep, I think Cady is going to have a hard road to make the team but he's due his tender like Thomas and he too agreed to be stashed in the dleague. He's getting at least to training camp. Milutinov declining playing for Serbia and coming to SL still means to me at least the chance he can make the team as well. And he plays a position of need, specially if TD retires. Whether Pop likes it or not, he's getting at least another big.

Yes, and if you look at the market for min-salaried big-men, you'll see that there aren't very many who look like they can help. It's not all that likely that Cady or Ndoye would have a real vet competitor. Maybe Chris Andersen.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cady get guaranteed money this time around. Maybe they can convince him to stay in the d-league another year for a fully guaranteed first season in 2017, but I kind of doubt it with is age.

PG: Parker, Mills, Murray
SG: Green, Manu, Simmons (or Hanga for coachmac87 's benefit)
SF: Leonard, Anderson, Bertans
PF: Aldridge, West/Diaw, LJC
C: Duncan, Andersen, Lalanne

This may be the best the team can do, and it's actually pretty feasible financially. Would rather have younger players who aren't as reliable rather than having five players who are 35-plus, but the talent level is pretty undeniable, as it the versatility. There's also a youngish guy ready to step in for each of the oldies.

[Clipper Nation]

Best French player in Spurs history, tbh.

[dabom]

Best French player in Spurs history, tbh.

Already better PG than Porker. :lol

[ulosturedge]

Not excited about him as of now, but I'm hoping he shocks me

Pretty much how I feel about LJC as well.

[TheGreatYacht]

Waste of a roster spot, and the worst part is Bonner will waster another one.

[Chucho]

Waste of a roster spot. This will be the worst move of the offseason

Not if Bonner finds a way back onto the roster.

[Chinook]

Waste of a roster spot. This will be the worst move of the offseason

Better than Kevin Martin at least.

[Spurs9]

Waste of a roster spot, and the worst part is Bonner will waster another one.

I honestly can't believe Bonner has stuck on the roster this long.

[look_at_g_shred]

Better than Kevin Martin at least.
Don't tell that to CoachMac

[Chinook]

Not if Bonner finds a way back onto the roster.

I think there's a legit chance that Bonner is on the roster again. Could see him getting the final spot over Cady.

[TheGreatYacht]

I honestly can't believe Bonner has stuck on the roster this long.

I think there's a legit chance that Bonner is on the roster again. Could see him getting the final spot over Cady.
We cut JaMychal and Rasual for that useless bum already, if Cady suffers the same faith.... :lol

Didn't his apologists promise us that last year was it? Seems like a yearly ritual. Can't wait to hear them bring up the OKC series where he took Diaw's credit

[coachmac87]

Yes, and if you look at the market for min-salaried big-men, you'll see that there aren't very many who look like they can help. It's not all that likely that Cady or Ndoye would have a real vet competitor. Maybe Chris Andersen.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cady get guaranteed money this time around. Maybe they can convince him to stay in the d-league another year for a fully guaranteed first season in 2017, but I kind of doubt it with is age.

PG: Parker, Mills, Murray
SG: Green, Manu, Simmons (or Hanga for coachmac87 's benefit)
SF: Leonard, Anderson, Bertans
PF: Aldridge, West/Diaw, LJC
C: Duncan, Andersen, Lalanne

This may be the best the team can do, and it's actually pretty feasible financially. Would rather have younger players who aren't as reliable rather than having five players who are 35-plus, but the talent level is pretty undeniable, as it the versatility. There's also a youngish guy ready to step in for each of the oldies.

Thanks my nigga!

[Mikeanaro]

Pop's boneheaded lineups were mostly to blame..
Truly bizarre, turned the game more into his dumb coaching than starters playing a good chunk of minutes and some role players, you know like most championship winning teams do.

[coachmac87]

Better than Kevin Martin at least.

Maybe. Just don't see this guy as an NBA player..I could be wrong and I hope I'm wrong. But he doesn't have a position and I dunno what NBA skill he brings to the table

[Mikeanaro]

Been hearing about this scrub for years and honestly dont give 2 shits about him, enough with euro pussies.

[Chinook]

Been hearing about this scrub for years and honestly dont give 2 shits about him, enough with euro pussies.

He's South American.

[CGD]

If he can recapture the mid range jumper he'd be solid bench player

[daslicer]

Low expectations for this guy. Just hoping he can be a decent role player.

[Chucho]

Been hearing about this scrub for years and honestly dont give 2 shits about him, enough with euro pussies.

Exactly. And the same with Bertrans...always seem there are a few never-will-bes PATFO roll the dice on. There is nothing promising about a twiggy scrub that puts up lousy numbers in a league where all the teams would get rolled by any top 20 NCAA program.

And LOfuckingL at the tools infatuated with Bertrans.

[r0drig0lac]

now trade Luwawu for millsl, and bring back De Colo, and we can make a run in Gobert.

[SAGirl]

I think there's a legit chance that Bonner is on the roster again. Could see him getting the final spot over Cady.
Ughhhhh. Not that I am a Cady fan or anything but ughhhh.

[wildbill2u]

All I expect from Livio is rim protection and rebounding. What more can you ask for?

Well, I'd like him to have some basic skills like catching the ball and making layups. Seems a majority of folks here don't think he can do either.

[Mikeanaro]

He's South American.
Lol, as far as I know he is French but it doesnt matter, Manu is an euro player but how many euros are worthy?

[SpursFan86]

PG: Parker, Mills, Murray
SG: Green, Manu, Simmons (or Hanga for coachmac87 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4835) 's benefit)
SF: Leonard, Anderson, Bertans
PF: Aldridge, West/Diaw, LJC
C: Duncan, Andersen, Lalanne

I'd be pretty disappointed if this ends up being the case. Basically the exact same squad as last with none of the issues being addressed (unless you think Bertans will actually get noticeable playing time and provide some 3-point shooting that we sorely lacked).

I know we won 67 games, but I don't know, seemed pretty apparent that was just overachieving in the regular season. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but that same team with Parker/Manu/Duncan all being a year older doesn't sound too exciting. Have a hard time seeing that squad win a title.

[spursreport]

Yes, and if you look at the market for min-salaried big-men, you'll see that there aren't very many who look like they can help. It's not all that likely that Cady or Ndoye would have a real vet competitor. Maybe Chris Andersen.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cady get guaranteed money this time around. Maybe they can convince him to stay in the d-league another year for a fully guaranteed first season in 2017, but I kind of doubt it with is age.

PG: Parker, Mills, Murray
SG: Green, Manu, Simmons (or Hanga for coachmac87 's benefit)
SF: Leonard, Anderson, Bertans
PF: Aldridge, West/Diaw, LJC
C: Duncan, Andersen, Lalanne

This may be the best the team can do, and it's actually pretty feasible financially. Would rather have younger players who aren't as reliable rather than having five players who are 35-plus, but the talent level is pretty undeniable, as it the versatility. There's also a youngish guy ready to step in for each of the oldies.

That is a retarded ass lineup. Too many old fucks. That's another wasted season as well. If that is "the best they can do" then blow it up. They need a versatile team badly. That bullshit roster won't cut it and you know it. :lol

[look_at_g_shred]

If he can be anything like Clint Capela I'd be thrilled

[Chinook]

Lol, as far as I know he is French but it doesnt matter, Manu is an euro player but how many euros are worthy?

He is French. But he's not European. Empire and all that.

[SAGirl]

I'd be pretty disappointed if this ends up being the case. Basically the exact same squad as last with none of the issues being addressed (unless you think Bertans will actually get noticeable playing time and provide some 3-point shooting that we sorely lacked).

I know we won 67 games, but I don't know, seemed pretty apparent that was just overachieving in the regular season. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but that same team with Parker/Manu/Duncan all being a year older doesn't sound too exciting. Have a hard time seeing that squad win a title.
This is true. That 67 win squad also played D west a lot who is gone IMO and not necessarily improved upon, and Boban won a few RS games for us and he's not here. I think this above group has a lower ceiling than last season.

[Chinook]

That is a retarded ass lineup. Too many old fucks. That's another wasted season as well. If that is "the best they can do" then blow it up. They need a versatile team badly. That bullshit roster won't cut it and you know it. :lol

I would say something like, "Well then you're going to really be depressed about the actual lineup" but it's clear you're going to just keep making annoying interjections with lol emoticons while thinking that makes you edgy.

[Chinook]

I'd be pretty disappointed if this ends up being the case. Basically the exact same squad as last with none of the issues being addressed (unless you think Bertans will actually get noticeable playing time and provide some 3-point shooting that we sorely lacked).

I know we won 67 games, but I don't know, seemed pretty apparent that was just overachieving in the regular season. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but that same team with Parker/Manu/Duncan all being a year older doesn't sound too exciting. Have a hard time seeing that squad win a title.

The Spurs' "issues" are being mad overblown. Anyway, most people thought the second unit was missing size and rim-protection. Birdman still gives that. Better than Miles Plumlee does.

[Mikeanaro]

He is French. But he's not European. Empire and all that.
Yeah but what about English people, are they euros now?

[SAGirl]

The Spurs' "issues" are being mad overblown. Anyway, most people thought the second unit was missing size and rim-protection. Birdman still gives that. Better than Miles Plumlee does.
You have a point on Birdman and he's playoff tested. My worry aside from the d west minutes is they still look poised to rely on Tim and Manu for a lot. That bench is still Mills/Manu/Diaw reliant. I don't see enough additions to alleviate these problems. Manu is not going to get better. He could make a disappearing act in the playoffs again. Timmy could get the knee soreness again. Mills is going to be a terrible PG again. I'd expect at least one FA to fix ons of these problems. I'd they fix just one I'll be happy enough and hope that some young guys can fix others.

[dabom]

You have a point on Birdman and he's playoff tested. My worry aside from the d west minutes is they still look poised to rely on Tim and Manu for a lot. That bench is still Mills/Manu/Diaw reliant. I don't see enough additions to alleviate these problems. Manu is not going to get better. He could make a disappearing act in the playoffs again. Timmy could get the knee soreness again. Mills is going to be a terrible PG again. I'd expect at least one FA to fix ons of these problems. I'd they fix just one I'll be happy enough and hope that some young guys can fix others.

What the fuck are you smoking? Low IQ basketball randoms that barely started watching basketball 2 years ago need to slow it down... :lol

[dabom]

Things fathead needs to improve on.

Speed. Dude has ZERO fucking speed. ZERO. Like Slomo needs to change to SUPERSLOMO.

Dude has ZERO fucking strength. ZERO. Dude has the weight though :lol just fucking weak as shit. Not strong enough for the 3.

Can't fucking rebound for shit. Only gets the uncontested rebounds. Dude couldn't react quick enough to get a rebound 5 feet away from him in the playoffs.

Dude can't fucking shoot for shit. Hesitant on OPEN shots and Only shoots SUPER OPEN shots. Definitely can't space the floor with 2s.

Dude has no 3 point shot. The worst on the team. Can't space the floor with threes. Basically a black hole on offense.

I haven't seen this dude as a point forward because he probably sucks at that too. He isn't in HS anymore.

Dude is ALWAYS reaching in cause he is a shitty defender and can't move laterally.

He can't steal. He can't defend. He can't score. He can't playmake. Dude is a tomato can.

[dabom]

Someone tell me I'm wrong with my assessment of Fathead.

[dabom]

Fathead .055WS/48 :lmao

Patty Mills .124WS/48 on an OFF year. :lmao

And I might add that a forward should get around a .100WS/48 WAY EASIER than a Guard can. :lmao

This was during the playoffs. :lmao

[dabom]

Patty .571TS%

Fathead .410TS% during the playoffs. :lmao

[tonight...you]

Patty .571TS%

Fathead .410TS% during the playoffs. :lmao
You hopped up on something right now? You are fired up.

[dabom]

You hopped up on something right now? You are fired up.

Nah man. Just don't understand how someone can throw shade on every freaking player on the team but thinks Fathead is a good player.

[tonight...you]

Nah man. Just don't understand how someone can throw shade on every freaking player on the team but thinks Fathead is a good player.
Lol. Eh, it is what it is. I'm giving him this last year to put anything... ANYTHING together (and I don't have high hopes) before totally trashing the hydro-cephalic.
Cojo looked like a waste for his first few years also before putting things together to become... serviceable.

[dabom]

Probably the reason he can't playmake is because no one respects his fucking shot. :lol

How do you get people to go around the screens and get caught by the pump fake. That pretty much makes it impossible to drive in and/or dish. :lmao

[dabom]

Lol. Eh, it is what it is. I'm giving him this last year to put anything... ANYTHING together (and I don't have high hopes) before totally trashing the hydro-cephalic.
Cojo looked like a waste for his first few years also before putting things together to become... serviceable.

Yeah but you don't say he is a good player. There is a difference.

[tonight...you]

Probably the reason he can't playmake is because no one respects his fucking shot. :lol

How do you get people to around the screens and get caught by the pump fake. That pretty much makes it impossible to drive in and/or dish. :lmao
I will be honest here- I've never seen a 3 second jump shot before Kyle and I've seen some strange shot setups.

[dabom]

I will be honest here- I've never seen a 3 second jump shot before Kyle and I've seen some strange shot setups.

:lol

[tonight...you]

:lol
It's true. I was watching a game with my wife and there Kyle was, pulling up for a jumper and it was like watching the Matrix.
I stated that there was no way I just saw what I thought I saw so I rewound the DVR and counted the seconds, in real time, from his pull-up to release.

3 whole seconds and maybe fractions of a second more.
It was incredible! And he made it, which was more incredible since I thought that duck was never going in!

[dabom]

It's true. I was watching a game with my wife and there Kyle was, pulling up for a jumper and it was like watching the Matrix.
I stated that there was no way I just saw what I thought I saw so I rewound the DVR and counted the seconds, in real time, from his pull-up to release.

3 whole seconds and maybe fractions of a second more.
It was incredible! And he made it, which was more incredible since I thought that duck was never going in!

I've seen Fathead with open shots, like wide open, and the close out still happens from opposite side of the court. Dude is fucking slow to shoot. :lol

[spurs1990]

I'd be pretty disappointed if this ends up being the case. Basically the exact same squad as last with none of the issues being addressed (unless you think Bertans will actually get noticeable playing time and provide some 3-point shooting that we sorely lacked).

I know we won 67 games, but I don't know, seemed pretty apparent that was just overachieving in the regular season. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but that same team with Parker/Manu/Duncan all being a year older doesn't sound too exciting. Have a hard time seeing that squad win a title.

I gotta believe the FO has this in the back of their mind, and know that if not for a few bounces they would've gone further than the WCSF.
They'll look at it like they didn't get their doors blown off by okc, who obviously wasn't a pushover from what they did in the next round.

It'll all fall on how okc revamps. If they keep Durant then I can see where the FO has to reinvent the roster a little more to keep up with the improvement.

Otherwise, unless Durant heads to GS, I can see the little tweaks suggested in the above roster be enough to stay the course and contend in 2017.

[tonight...you]

I've seen Fathead with open shots, like wide open, and the close out still happens from opposite side of the court. Dude is fucking slow to shoot. :lol
Chip's not earning his paycheck with that guy. Or maybe Kyle just does what he wants. Not everybody is an obedient machine like Kawhi...

I mean seriously, if I was Pop and the gang- I would be harping on him to speed up that shot. Gain good mechanics and then let your muscle memory and instincts fly.
Yeah, it takes a 1000 shots a day while concentrating on good habits, but that's why you get paid what you get paid to live in FantasyLand!

The more I look at Kyle, the more I appreciate Kawhi, and I'm not a player fan. I truly hope something clicks with the kid.

[dabom]

Chip's not earning his paycheck with that guy. Or maybe Kyle just does what he wants. Not everybody is an obedient machine like Kawhi...

I mean seriously, if I was Pop and the gang- I would be harping on him to speed up that shot. Gain good mechanics and then let your muscle memory and instincts fly.
Yeah, it takes a 1000 shots a day while concentrating on good habits, but that's why you get paid what you get paid to live in FantasyLand!

The more I look at Kyle, the more I appreciate Kawhi, and I'm not a player fan. I truly hope something clicks with the kid.

I felt Kawhi was special after watching him a few games. Fathead doesn't give that same vibe. He should never get any playoff minutes unless Pop wants to set himself up for disappointment again.

[cjw]

Otherwise, unless Durant heads to GS, I can see the little tweaks suggested in the above roster be enough to stay the course and contend in 2017.

While maintaining a ton of flexibility in 2017-18 and beyond. Younger players may develop while catching Kawhi's prime and tail end of LMA's good years, with room to add FA. No need to stretch this offseason if no difference makers who can hamstring you down road.

[tonight...you]

I felt Kawhi was special after watching him a few games. Fathead doesn't give that same vibe. He should never get any playoff minutes unless Pop wants to set himself up for disappointment again.
Let's get real here: we all know Kawhi is shooting hoops in a gym right this second. Right now.
Working on his game. And tomorrow? He going to be shooting hoops, working on his game.
Doing what Chip and Chad and Pop and whoever else told him to improve upon- he's doing it.

Right now.

We ALL know he's going to come back next year either more polished, or better at something he struggled with before.
He does it every year through his machine-like commitment to being the best.

Kyle? Uh... Yeah. Um... All I can say is I reeeeeaaaalllly hope (picture Vince Vaughan in Swingers talking to John Favreau telling him how to get a girl) and I mean reeeeaaaalllly hope he does something for his game this summer.
But I'm not counting on it necessarily. Not like I count on Kawhi. Why are professional athletes like Kawhi so rare?

[palangi]

The Spurs' "issues" are being mad overblown. Anyway, most people thought the second unit was missing size and rim-protection. Birdman still gives that. Better than Miles Plumlee does.
Is that just opinion?

Because facts tell a different story. plumlee averaged more blocks and rebounds and points. He also had a better FG%. Plumlee is also a better passer with a higher assist average. And he is 10 years younger than the 37 year old birdman

Birdman


SEASON
TEAM
GP
GS
MIN
FGM-A
FG%
3PM-A
3P%
FTM-A
FT%
OR
DR
REB
AST
BLK
STL
PF
TO
PTS
























'15-'16



MEM (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mem/memphis-grizzlies)


20
14
18.3
1.7-3.1
.548
0.1-0.5
.222
1.1-1.6
.688
1.7
2.8
4.5
0.5
0.5
0.7
1.3
0.4
4.6


Plumlee


GP
MPG
FGM-FGA
FG%
3PM-3PA
3P%
FTM-FTA
FT%
RPG
APG
BLKPG
STLPG
PFPG
TOPG
PPG


2015-16 Regular Season
61
14.3
2.3-3.8
.601
0.0-0.0
.000
0.6-1.0
.576
3.8
0.3
0.8
0.3
1.2
0.7
5.1

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Since he was a first rounder, it's guaranteed.

It's been so long since he was drafted I'm not sure that they have to use the rookie parameters. I think they may only be capped by them.

[dabom]

Let's get real here: we all know Kawhi is shooting hoops in a gym right this second. Right now.
Working on his game. And tomorrow? He going to be shooting hoops, working on his game.
Doing what Chip and Chad and Pop and whoever else told him to improve upon- he's doing it.

Right now.

We ALL know he's going to come back next year either more polished, or better at something he struggled with before.
He does it every year through his machine-like commitment to being the best.

Kyle? Uh... Yeah. Um... All I can say is I reeeeeaaaalllly hope (picture Vince Vaughan in Swingers talking to John Favreau telling him how to get a girl) and I mean reeeeaaaalllly hope he does something for his game this summer.
But I'm not counting on it necessarily. Not like I count on Kawhi. Why are professional athletes like Kawhi so rare?

Just hope Pop stops failing and does what he is paid too do. Bench the scrubs.

[TD 21]

The Spurs' "issues" are being mad overblown. Anyway, most people thought the second unit was missing size and rim-protection. Birdman still gives that. Better than Miles Plumlee does.

No, they're not. They've got myriad issues: lead creator, spacers, roll men, athleticism) and unless Durant leaves the Thunder, they're either 4th or 5th most likely to win the championship.


It's seeming more and more likely that they'll mostly bring back the same team, with the only rotation changes being Marjanovic replacing West and maybe Gasol replacing Duncan, should he retire.

I'd expect the roster to be filled out with some youngish veteran big, who can push Marjanovic for fourth big minutes and maybe a wing shooter, to push Simmons for his spot.

Jean-Charles always seemed likely to me to be a wasted pick and nothing's changed in the 3 years since. That said, they spent a 1st on him, so they might as well see if they can turn him into an NBA player, but I don't see him becoming a rotation one.

[cjw]

Why are professional athletes like Kawhi so rare?

Because they feel that they put in the work already and earned it by making the league. A decade of hard work and they start collecting checks and they feel comfortable. Screw up and you'll still get paid $500k a year in Europe. Be decent and you'll make a few million a year.

[HarlemHeat37]

Honestly, I don't mind if they bring the same team back with a few minor upgrades, tbh..

Realistically, unless they're landing Durant, they won't be able to acquire a player that will make them a clear level better than they were this past season IMO..continuity and minor upgrades should be sufficient to get them to the WCF-level(which they would have reached, if it wasn't for bad breaks and questionable officiating), and then it comes down to luck, which would be the case, regardless, barring Durant IMO..

I'd rather have another year of being the #3-4 contender in the NBA, as opposed to blowing the entire plan on a declining Mike Conley..

[SpursFan86]

The Spurs' "issues" are being mad overblown. Anyway, most people thought the second unit was missing size and rim-protection. Birdman still gives that. Better than Miles Plumlee does.

Our biggest problems last year (IMO):

- pretty much no one capable of penetrating and breaking down the defense besides Parker and Manu, neither of which are particularly consistent at this point in their careers (and I'd only expect them to decline going into next season)

- lack of volume 3-point shooting...I'll admit this isn't as big of a deal if Green gets his shot back, but we don't know if he will.

- defense/rebounding on the 2nd unit

I'll concede that it sounds a bit dumb acting like keeping together a 67-win team isn't good enough, but like I said, I think they overperformed in the regular season. Maybe if Duncan/Manu/Parker weren't their age I'd be a bit more welcome to the idea, but with those guys likely facing a decline, essentially standing pat (from a rotation standpoint) would be disappointing IMO.

It wouldn't entirely surprise me if that ends up happening. And I wouldn't go all "fuck PATFO :madrun " if it does. I just don't think that team has a realistic chance at all of winning a title. And if Duncan/Manu are coming back for another year, I'd hate to see it be for naught.

[SAGirl]

Our biggest problems last year (IMO):

- pretty much no one capable of penetrating and breaking down the defense besides Parker and Manu, neither of which are particularly consistent at this point in their careers (and I'd only expect them to decline going into next season)

- lack of volume 3-point shooting...I'll admit this isn't as big of a deal if Green gets his shot back, but we don't know if he will.

- defense/rebounding on the 2nd unit

I'll concede that it sounds a bit dumb acting like keeping together a 67-win team isn't good enough, but like I said, I think they overperformed in the regular season. Maybe if Duncan/Manu/Parker weren't their age I'd be a bit more welcome to the idea, but with those guys likely facing a decline, essentially standing pat (from a rotation standpoint) would be disappointing IMO.

It wouldn't entirely surprise me if that ends up happening. And I wouldn't go all "fuck PATFO :madrun " if it does. I just don't think that team has a realistic chance at all of winning a title. And if Duncan/Manu are coming back for another year, I'd hate to see it be for naught.
I agree with your point and its basically similar to the one I tried to make. We'd be lucky if Timmy/Manu and Tony are about the same as this season. I would not expect more minutes or better play from them than they gave last season. An older team like that has a much lower ceiling with each passing season bc of decline. We can hope the younger players come back better and wrestle roles away from the older veterans bc it would be for the betterment of the team to have younger guys step into roles, but until the season starts we don't know who these young guys are and whether they will be able to improve our team. Several of them are rookies.

I just think we need one or two reinforcements to even stay somewhat the same. I realize we can't address all of our needs at once, but we need help in at least one area, and hope the rest holds up. This kind of situation may be forced up on us anyways (looking at FA for a veteran or two to reinforce the rotation), bc Timmy may very well retire and Manu is holding his decision up until the Olympic games.

[tonight...you]

Because they feel that they put in the work already and earned it by making the league. A decade of hard work and they start collecting checks and they feel comfortable. Screw up and you'll still get paid $500k a year in Europe. Be decent and you'll make a few million a year.
Yeah... I get what you're saying. I hope Pop puts Murray deep in the Kawhi tent and Kawhi takes him in wholeheartedly and Murray follows suit.
Then... maybe then this team will have two truly special players going all out for the Silver and Black.

LMA is great. Great player. Not special. Kawhi is special. Just calling a spade a spade. Murray could be special... It's up to the team and himself.

[poeticism707]

Hopefully this guy shows something.

His D CAN'T be worse


than Bonner or West.

[Sean Cagney]

Honestly, I don't mind if they bring the same team back with a few minor upgrades, tbh..

Realistically, unless they're landing Durant, they won't be able to acquire a player that will make them a clear level better than they were this past season IMO..

That is pretty much the truth.

[cd021]

Duncan/Boban
Aldridge/Diaw/Livio
Kawhi/Kyle
Green/Manu/Simmons
Tony/Mills/Murray

I think that there is a decent chance that West will be back if he does not retire. I am unsure of whether Diaw will be back if Duncan is.

[tonight...you]

I think that there is a decent chance that West will be back if he does not retire. I am unsure of whether Diaw will be back if Duncan is.
I hear you, but what's with all this chatter from Diaw saying Pop wants him back and he's gon' be here mon'?

I guess you could just say- it was RC, doing what's best for the team, but Pop's the Pres... I think Diaw's here unless a Durant situation happens.

[cd021]

Honestly, I don't mind if they bring the same team back with a few minor upgrades, tbh..

Realistically, unless they're landing Durant, they won't be able to acquire a player that will make them a clear level better than they were this past season IMO..continuity and minor upgrades should be sufficient to get them to the WCF-level(which they would have reached, if it wasn't for bad breaks and questionable officiating), and then it comes down to luck, which would be the case, regardless, barring Durant IMO..

I'd rather have another year of being the #3-4 contender in the NBA, as opposed to blowing the entire plan on a declining Mike Conley..

I'd rather go after Conley, he is only 29, if he were to sign a 3+ 1 like LMA he would only be 31 or 32 by the time he hits FA again. If Parker is his backup then his minutes will be better monitored because most of their minutes will be split.

LMA is going to be 31 Spurs have three or maybe four good years left of him at an all star level. Spurs can't afford to tweak and hope that it is good enough to beat the Thunder or Warriors.

[cd021]

I hear you, but what's with all this chatter from Diaw saying Pop wants him back and he's gon' be here mon'?

I guess you could just say- it was RC, doing what's best for the team, but Pop's the Pres... I think Diaw's here unless a Durant situation happens.

I can't get over the fact that he was benched in the closeout game against a team he dominated two years ago. We have yet to hear anything about injuries being the cause. Diaw has also not been the same player since '14. West was just a better player than Diaw this season despite STs opinion of him. I think that the Spurs would look hard at moving him if it meant that they did not have to take back salary and they could resign West after using up the cap.

[tonight...you]

I can't get over the fact that he was benched in the closeout game against a team he dominated two years ago. We have yet to hear anything about injuries being the cause. Diaw has also not been the same player since '14. West was just a better player than Diaw this season despite STs opinion of him. I think that the Spurs would look hard at moving him if it meant that they did not have to take back salary and they could resign West after using up the cap.
You may be right. I can see RC doing it, but Pop is a straight shooter and that's well known throughout the league, just as much as what his participation is going to be like in mid-game interviews.

I'm going to maintain, it's going to take a Durant, or Durant-like situation to trade/cut him. We shall see, shan't we?

I just wanted an excuse to use the condensation of the phrase shall not, honestly. It's not something we all see regularly.

[Russ]

Jean-Charles always seemed likely to me to be a wasted pick and nothing's changed in the 3 years since.

:toast

At the time, he was a major reach where he was picked.

[spurs10]

This is true. That 67 win squad also played D west a lot who is gone IMO and not necessarily improved upon, and Boban won a few RS games for us and he's not here. I think this above group has a lower ceiling than last season.
Where is Boban?

[tonight...you]

Where is Boban?
Surfing in Corpus Christi, while eating the chimichangas his wife just learned from her Mexican neighbors how to cook.
Poor guy is going to get an unholy amount of jellyfish stings...

Someone piss on this poor Bridge Troll's lower limbs!

[Mnky]

:toast

At the time, he was a major reach where he was picked.

Before his injury, he outperformed most of the rookies at the Nike summit game. His Injury seemed to push his development backwards, but he was a legitimate pick considering the upside. Can't do anything about an injury that takes a man out a year ,the same year his body starts maturing.

[K...]

comparing kawhi to fat head is dumb. Kawhi had a much easier mission...defense first offense second. He got tons of time based on his size and defensive talent.

Fathead has gotten spotty time, no defined role, and has to learn the offense. Comparing him to cojo is better bc cojo got jerked around just as much

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd rather go after Conley, he is only 29, if he were to sign a 3+ 1 like LMA he would only be 31 or 32 by the time he hits FA again. If Parker is his backup then his minutes will be better monitored because most of their minutes will be split.

LMA is going to be 31 Spurs have three or maybe four good years left of him at an all star level. Spurs can't afford to tweak and hope that it is good enough to beat the Thunder or Warriors.

I'm terrified of Conley for 2 key reasons, tbh:

1. Durability..played only 56 games, last season, and has been injured in 2 consecutive playoff runs..

His games played and minutes have trended down in every single season since his peak(2012-2013)

2. Style of play with age..he's at a shaky age for PGs(29) and his specialty is defense, which will continue to naturally decline with age(especially in today's NBA)..he's not a great shooter(36-37% from 3) or passer(decent, nothing special), which makes me skeptical as to how his game is going to age..


It would be pretty shitty for the Spurs to pay 20+ mil per year to a PG that will be hurt in the playoffs, only for Parker to be starting again:lol..I also don't see how it makes sense to be paying 15 mil/year for a backup PG in Parker, right now(not to mention, would TP even accept a bench role?)

[tonight...you]

comparing kawhi to fat head is dumb. Kawhi had a much easier mission...defense first offense second. He got tons of time based on his size and defensive talent.

Fathead has gotten spotty time, no defined role, and has to learn the offense. Comparing him to cojo is better bc cojo got jerked around just as much
Yeah, like the development coaches are giving Kyle undefined instructions on what to improve upon and Pop has no expectations on him except for some nebulous improvement on "stuff".

The fact is Kyle gets out on that court and just does things that he's reacting to according to what he sees. He hasn't done anything to specifically improve his game significantly except for getting more comfortable with his team and playing in the NBA.
Yippee.

Kawhi did not have an easier mission. He merely hurdled his obstacles enough to proceed to the next hurdle through dedication and hard work.

My god man...

[tonight...you]

I'm terrified of Conley for 2 key reasons, tbh:

1. Durability..played only 56 games, last season, and has been injured in 2 consecutive playoff runs..

His games played and minutes have trended down in every single season since his peak(2012-2013)
It would be a signing that people praise Year 1 and skewer by Year 2 on.
Just like TP now.

2. Style of play with age..he's at a shaky age for PGs(29) and his specialty is defense, which will continue to naturally decline with age(especially in today's NBA)..he's not a great shooter(36-37% from 3) or passer(decent, nothing special), which makes me skeptical as to how his game is going to age..


It would be pretty shitty for the Spurs to pay 20+ mil per year to a PG that will be hurt in the playoffs, only for Parker to be starting again:lol..I also don't see how it makes sense to be paying 15 mil/year for a backup PG in Parker, right now(not to mention, would TP even accept a bench role?)

[tonight...you]

I'm terrified of Conley for 2 key reasons, tbh:

1. Durability..played only 56 games, last season, and has been injured in 2 consecutive playoff runs..

His games played and minutes have trended down in every single season since his peak(2012-2013)
Just like TP now.

2. Style of play with age..he's at a shaky age for PGs(29) and his specialty is defense, which will continue to naturally decline with age(especially in today's NBA)..he's not a great shooter(36-37% from 3) or passer(decent, nothing special), which makes me skeptical as to how his game is going to age..


It would be pretty shitty for the Spurs to pay 20+ mil per year to a PG that will be hurt in the playoffs, only for Parker to be starting again:lol..I also don't see how it makes sense to be paying 15 mil/year for a backup PG in Parker, right now(not to mention, would TP even accept a bench role?)
It would be a signing that people praise Year 1 and skewer by Year 2 on.
Just like TP now.

[tholdren]

you're wrong. the spurs problem is scoring. not defense. not rebounding. scoring.

[tonight...you]

you're wrong. the spurs problem is scoring. not defense. not rebounding. scoring.
Against OKC, if they remain intact, there is definitely a rebounding problem. Do you not remember that at all?

[K...]

Yeah, like the development coaches are giving Kyle undefined instructions on what to improve upon and Pop has no expectations on him except for some nebulous improvement on "stuff".

The fact is Kyle gets out on that court and just does things that he's reacting to according to what he sees. He hasn't done anything to specifically improve his game significantly except for getting more comfortable with his team and playing in the NBA.
Yippee.

Kawhi did not have an easier mission. He merely hurdled his obstacles enough to proceed to the next hurdle through dedication and hard work.

My god man...

Huh? I don't understand your case?


Kyle is a ball dominant player. This year he played entirely off ball. He played in a manu dominant system. He played with turd towers.

Do you know if he's a 3or 4? Kind of hard to develop an offensive game with out that info. This team had too many fours so kyle played a 3. Maybe that's not his long term position.




Kawhi is a physical beast. When he started playing for us he didn't need to learn the offense. He was a garbage man. He's slowly added his overweight skill.

Kyle had played better defense than many have expected. What if the coaches told him to do that?

Undoubtedly he's been told to shoot better. But judging him just on outside shooting is dumb. His game is driving. The spurs haven't featured him so we haven't seen the true kyle.

[dabom]

:lmao

[tholdren]

Against OKC, if they remain intact, there is definitely a rebounding problem. Do you not remember that at all?
spurs scored 103+ ppg in the regular season. It's no coincidence that each game they scored less than 100, they lost. Problem is the scoring, not the defense not the rebounding, the scoring.

[tonight...you]

Huh? I don't understand your case?


Kyle is a ball dominant player. This year he played entirely off ball. He played in a manu dominant system. He played with turd towers.

Do you know if he's a 3or 4? Kind of hard to develop an offensive game with out that info. This team had too many fours so kyle played a 3. Maybe that's not his long term position.




Kawhi is a physical beast. When he started playing for us he didn't need to learn the offense. He was a garbage man. He's slowly added his overweight skill.

Kyle had played better defense than many have expected. What if the coaches told him to do that?

Undoubtedly he's been told to shoot better. But judging him just on outside shooting is dumb. His game is driving. The spurs haven't featured him so we haven't seen the true kyle.
My case is that if Kyle was placed into that situation, like you say- they prepped him for it.
Or do you think they prepped him for another way to play for the team and then placed him randomly doing what he was tasked to do?
Are you saying that Pop and company told him to train to play for the team one way and then placed him in every position to not play that way?

Is it his comfort zone? Probably not, but I believe it is what he was tasked to do and he did not live up to the task.

Kawhi lived up to every task placed before him.

I don't know man... Maybe you're right. I want this kid to find his niche on this team and blossom. I just don't know if he has the drive to make it happen at all costs like one other guy that happens to be on his team.

[tonight...you]

spurs scored 103+ ppg in the regular season. It's no coincidence that each game they scored less than 100, they lost. Problem is the scoring, not the defense not the rebounding, the scoring.
That's a simpleton's argument. You could equally say if they rebounded a bit better, got a few more stops, rather than score a few more buckets then they win.
The fact is they defended well and they were pretty efficient in scoring, but they got killed on the boards. Especially offensively by the Thunder.

And LOL you pulling out them RS stats. Weaksauce as hell black name. Represent better.

[tholdren]

That's a simpleton's argument. You could equally say if they rebounded a bit better, got a few more stops, rather than score a few more buckets then they win.
The fact is they defended well and they were pretty efficient in scoring, but they got killed on the boards. Especially offensively by the Thunder.

And LOL you pulling out them RS stats. Weaksauce as hell black name. Represent better.
wtf. it is a simple argument. pretty ignorant that you cannot realize what happened. keep on analyzing.

[tonight...you]

wtf. it is a simple argument. pretty ignorant that you cannot realize what happened. keep on analyzing.
Keep on talking nothing to nobody, black name.
You disgrace the other blacks with your nothing bullshit.

[tholdren]

Keep on talking nothing to nobody, black name.
You disgrace the other blacks with your nothing bullshit.
pwned

[tonight...you]

pwned
Uh huh. You tell yourself that and cuddle with your kitty cat in the dark.

[afireinside20]

David West is 6'9". Didn't help against OKC.

Yea but David West is.not as good as be used to be and he's old. This guy is younger and more explosive.

[dabom]

Uh huh. You tell yourself that and cuddle with your kitty cat in the dark.

:lmao

[tonight...you]

:lmao

This effing black named (must have been some honorary shit for tenure) fool talking about just offense when there are so many other things that could have shifted everything.
This cat willingly chooses to ignore that the team was getting destroyed on the boards and yet yells out "pwned" like a nervous Eric Cartman.

Sweet Jesus.

[dabom]

This effing black named (must have been some honorary shit for tenure) fool talking about just offense when there are so many other things that could have shifted everything.
This cat willingly chooses to ignore that the team was getting destroyed on the boards and yet yells out "pwned" like a nervous Eric Cartman.

Sweet Jesus.

I think he can't make threads and is bolded.

[Taking it to the Hole]

Is he taking Kevin Martin's spot? Don't know if the Spurs will try to resign Martin. Have no doubt he is going to want more money.

[tonight...you]

I think he can't make threads and is bolded.
Thank God for small favors.

[K...]

My case is that if Kyle was placed into that situation, like you say- they prepped him for it.
Or do you think they prepped him for another way to play for the team and then placed him randomly doing what he was tasked to do?
Are you saying that Pop and company told him to train to play for the team one way and then placed him in every position to not play that way?

Is it his comfort zone? Probably not, but I believe it is what he was tasked to do and he did not live up to the task.

Kawhi lived up to every task placed before him.

I don't know man... Maybe you're right. I want this kid to find his niche on this team and blossom. I just don't know if he has the drive to make it happen at all costs like one other guy that happens to be on his team.

Yes, exactly. With kawhi, we desperately needed an athletic sg. He was able to play his natural game because the 2013-2014 offense was rich. Flash forward to 2015, we have a sf, we have a bench ball handler. Kyle was expected to play passable defense and shoot outside shots. Mills and gino held the ball. It was no beautiful game.

This of all the shit that happened last year, new players, new offense, ask yourself how much coaching was really done with all that change.

Kawhi is an athletic freak. God given nba body. Kyle is not athletic but has a game which could be quite useful. His passing is his advantage. But he needs a stable role, teammates who drive and can shoot, and he needs the ball.. He didn't get any thing like that.



I'm not shitting on kawhi to say he had the easier transition, but it's just common sense that with a defense first attitude and natural talent and a hole in the starting lineup, gave kawhi a advantage.

Where as Kyle is playing shitty beta roles on a talent poor bench. No, he's never going to be as good as Kawhi on offense or defense. But he will be better than cojo and mills and nando

[tonight...you]

Yes, exactly. With kawhi, we desperately needed an athletic sg. He was able to play his natural game because the 2013-2014 offense was rich. Flash forward to 2015, we have a sf, we have a bench ball handler. Kyle was expected to play passable defense and shoot outside shots. Mills and gino held the ball. It was no beautiful game.

This of all the shit that happened last year, new players, new offense, ask yourself how much coaching was really done with all that change.

Kawhi is an athletic freak. God given nba body. Kyle is not athletic but has a game which could be quite useful. His passing is his advantage. But he needs a stable role, teammates who drive and can shoot, and he needs the ball.. He didn't get any thing like that.



I'm not shitting on kawhi to say he had the easier transition, but it's just common sense that with a defense first attitude and natural talent and a hole in the starting lineup, gave kawhi a advantage.

Where as Kyle is playing shitty beta roles on a talent poor bench. No, he's never going to be as good as Kawhi on offense or defense. But he will be better than cojo and mills and nando

No, no... we're coming to an accord. I honestly don't think Kawhi is an athletic freak, although he does have freakish measurements that he smartly uses to his advantage. Kawhi is no prime Amare, so to speak, athletically.
But the rest of your point, I get. Like I said- I want this kid to find his place and I think he does have some talent, not the least of which his ability to survey what's happening in front of him. I'm giving him this year to show himself as a real rotational player on a contender.

[SAGirl]

Huh? I don't understand your case?


Kyle is a ball dominant player. This year he played entirely off ball. He played in a manu dominant system. He played with turd towers.

Do you know if he's a 3or 4? Kind of hard to develop an offensive game with out that info. This team had too many fours so kyle played a 3. Maybe that's not his long term position.




Kawhi is a physical beast. When he started playing for us he didn't need to learn the offense. He was a garbage man. He's slowly added his overweight skill.

Kyle had played better defense than many have expected. What if the coaches told him to do that?

Undoubtedly he's been told to shoot better. But judging him just on outside shooting is dumb. His game is driving. The spurs haven't featured him so we haven't seen the true kyle.
:tu
ignore the trolling K. they are entirely too ignorant to entertain a rational analysis.

[SAGirl]

Is he taking Kevin Martin's spot? Don't know if the Spurs will try to resign Martin. Have no doubt he is going to want more money.
Kevin Martin is gone. He was awful and we don't have roster spots to spare on him IMO.

[tonight...you]

:tu
ignore the trolling K. they are entirely too ignorant to entertain a rational analysis.
Seriously? Did you read my post? I was not trolling. Huh...

[dabom]

Kawhi is a top 5 athlete in the NBA. Rated by many top analyst.

[SAGirl]

I have both of you on ignore ^^ :toast

[spurraider21]

Kawhi is a top 5 athlete in the NBA. Rated by many top analyst.
who are these top analysts, to name a few?

[dabom]

Seeing Kawhi close up is like seeing a beast. TV does a disservice to him.

[dabom]

who are these top analysts, to name a few?

Bill Simmons and that guy that bets on games.

[dabom]

They seen all the best athletes ever and Kawhi is a beast.

[tonight...you]

I have both of you on ignore ^^ :toast
That deserved an announcement. Must have meant something to her.

[BD24]

This guy was fucking garbage in summer league last year. Looks like a decent defender, but his offensive deficiencies make him damn near unplayable.

[Chinook]

Our biggest problems last year (IMO):

- pretty much no one capable of penetrating and breaking down the defense besides Parker and Manu, neither of which are particularly consistent at this point in their careers (and I'd only expect them to decline going into next season)

- lack of volume 3-point shooting...I'll admit this isn't as big of a deal if Green gets his shot back, but we don't know if he will.

- defense/rebounding on the 2nd unit

I'll concede that it sounds a bit dumb acting like keeping together a 67-win team isn't good enough, but like I said, I think they overperformed in the regular season. Maybe if Duncan/Manu/Parker weren't their age I'd be a bit more welcome to the idea, but with those guys likely facing a decline, essentially standing pat (from a rotation standpoint) would be disappointing IMO.

It wouldn't entirely surprise me if that ends up happening. And I wouldn't go all "fuck PATFO :madrun " if it does. I just don't think that team has a realistic chance at all of winning a title. And if Duncan/Manu are coming back for another year, I'd hate to see it be for naught.

Again, I think we saw this post-season that there isn't just one way to win. They don't need to match up with anyone. They just need to play well at what they do. I have a lot of concerns about the roster I suggested. I think that if Tim and Manu come back, that's just the best the team can do both in terms of what they have now and what they'll need in 2017. They're path to winning a title in that case almost completely relies on the Big Three finding something for a last run. I think they'll be fine in the regular season, so they just need to play well in the playoffs. Andersen or someone like him makes a lot of sense, too, because he also has the upside of getting it done one last time. Maybe they go with Plumlee or Cole instead, but it's the same idea.

As far as your specific points, I agree with them. The only one that is solved in the rotation is Andersen instead of West. The best hope is that Diaw rededicates himself for a final run, but honestly, I'd much rather the team moved on. In the very least, I'd want to waive him now and re-sign him later if free agency doesn't work out.

[Nathan89]

Ball penetration is the biggest thing lacking on the Spurs. OKC has Durant and Westbrook and Cavs have Lebron and Kyrie. We have no chance vs GSW unless we get another ball penetration threat. At this point are lineup options don't even give us a punchers chance.

[Chinook]

You have a point on Birdman and he's playoff tested. My worry aside from the d west minutes is they still look poised to rely on Tim and Manu for a lot. That bench is still Mills/Manu/Diaw reliant. I don't see enough additions to alleviate these problems. Manu is not going to get better. He could make a disappearing act in the playoffs again. Timmy could get the knee soreness again. Mills is going to be a terrible PG again. I'd expect at least one FA to fix ons of these problems. I'd they fix just one I'll be happy enough and hope that some young guys can fix others.

I don't think there's any way Manu is on the team and not the focal point of the bench. It's just not his game. However, the only answer to the bench issue if Manu comes back is Anderson stepping up into a significant offensive role (like averaging double figures). I'd rather the team redo the bench and not role with Mills as the "PG" and hoping Boris can contribute, but there aren't great alternatives. I don't see a significant offensive player available for trade. There are some like Monta Ellis, Lou Williams or an Eric Gordon S&T that are options. But there is also the issue of the bench needing a scoring big man while the team in general needs a scoring guard. If Manu is on the team, it makes it harder for Gordon to be there unless Anderson plays the four primarily or Eric plays PG.

Gordon, Simmons, Manu, Anderson, Boban actually make a bit of an awkward bench, but it has a lot of potential. Four ball-handlers, though three play significantly better with the ball in their hands. Boban wouldn't be ideal, as that unit screams PnR. Swapping out Simmons for another shooter and Boban for a diver would be much better. Maybe with Ibaka now in the fold, Dedmon will be available for a sign-and-trade or even a straight signing for the MLE.

Then you have Gordon, Manu, Bertans, Anderson, Dedmon, which to me would be really good and a unit into which Murray could easy rise after this upcoming season. I just worry a lot about the perimeter defense unless Gordon dedicates himself to that end.

[dabom]

Chinook top 10.

[SAGirl]

Again, I think we saw this post-season that there isn't just one way to win. They don't need to match up with anyone. They just need to play well at what they do. I have a lot of concerns about the roster I suggested. I think that if Tim and Manu come back, that's just the best the team can do both in terms of what they have now and what they'll need in 2017. They're path to winning a title in that case almost completely relies on the Big Three finding something for a last run. I think they'll be fine in the regular season, so they just need to play well in the playoffs. Andersen or someone like him makes a lot of sense, too, because he also has the upside of getting it done one last time. Maybe they go with Plumlee or Cole instead, but it's the same idea.

As far as your specific points, I agree with them. The only one that is solved in the rotation is Andersen instead of West. The best hope is that Diaw rededicates himself for a final run, but honestly, I'd much rather the team moved on. In the very least, I'd want to waive him now and re-sign him later if free agency doesn't work out.
Well for the fans and the franchise the farewell tour will be a financial success and an emotional one and worth it just in itself but we won't be winning a championship. Just got to enjoy the season in that case. For play off success, if they plan to stay mostly the same, the chance they have is for some internal improvement and lightning in a bottle, but it's fools gold. In which case, if they are staying pat for one last run, they should shift responsibility and roles and "develop the young bench"

Maybe in reality we don't get back to the finals until one or more of these guys makes a development leap. We might add a significant FA in 2017, but that's just to replenish the old big 3s production, like LMA. We won't get back to real contention until these youngsters develop IMO. Might as well start doing it during the farewell tour.

[cd021]

You may be right. I can see RC doing it, but Pop is a straight shooter and that's well known throughout the league, just as much as what his participation is going to be like in mid-game interviews.

I'm going to maintain, it's going to take a Durant, or Durant-like situation to trade/cut him. We shall see, shan't we?

I just wanted an excuse to use the condensation of the phrase shall not, honestly. It's not something we all see regularly.

:lol When I read you post that stuck out to me. We need to bring that word back, it sounds so dignified, I think of someone saying it with a British accent.

[Raven]

i like that they are bringing to rookies to the team. However, he really disappointed at last year's summerleague. He looked stone handed.

[Taking it to the Hole]

Well for the fans and the franchise the farewell tour will be a financial success and an emotional one and worth it just in itself but we won't be winning a championship. Just got to enjoy the season in that case. For play off success, if they plan to stay mostly the same, the chance they have is for some internal improvement and lightning in a bottle, but it's fools gold. In which case, if they are staying pat for one last run, they should shift responsibility and roles and "develop the young bench"

Maybe in reality we don't get back to the finals until one or more of these guys makes a development leap. We might add a significant FA in 2017, but that's just to replenish the old big 3s production, like LMA. We won't get back to real contention until these youngsters develop IMO. Might as well start doing it during the farewell tour.


Unfortunately, while I agree with you that the Spurs need to develop their youngsters, they don't have the luxury of being patient and bringing them along slowly. What is needed from the bench is consistent production and players that are ready to contribute. I believe Mills,Anderson and even Simmons will have better years this next year but outside of them, I really don't see any significant production from anybody else. All we can hope is that someone flashes greatness in summer league play and maybe they get a shot of being on the roster but I still thing LJC is far from being a siginifcant contributor. I think if Tim and Manu come back, they are definitely going to be given a lot less minutes but with no reliable backups, people need to step it up. I am not going to hope that Diaw is going to suddenly get back in shape and put down the wine glass but if he does, he could be a key to solidifying the bench.

[DPG21920]

I think all the money should be focused on just bringing in talent that isn't old. I would be fine with trading for a guy like Tyreke Evans or signing Eric Gordon or anything like that. If SA can just upgrade the bench Danny/LMA/KL make the SL already great.

I think the focus should be on getting as much actual young NBA talent as SA can get and unless you can get KD, spend it on guys who can be 6th man type players (even if they are starting caliber).

Especially if SA can land a guard who can play point and start, and TP moves to the bench, that would be big.

[TD 21]

Honestly, I don't mind if they bring the same team back with a few minor upgrades, tbh..

Realistically, unless they're landing Durant, they won't be able to acquire a player that will make them a clear level better than they were this past season IMO..continuity and minor upgrades should be sufficient to get them to the WCF-level(which they would have reached, if it wasn't for bad breaks and questionable officiating), and then it comes down to luck, which would be the case, regardless, barring Durant IMO..

I'd rather have another year of being the #3-4 contender in the NBA, as opposed to blowing the entire plan on a declining Mike Conley..

I keep hearing this "bad breaks and questionable officiating", but it ignores two things . . .

1) The Thunder controlled both games 2 and 5 (in this, the incorrect call was more like the final nail in the coffin; it was highly unlikely to have altered the outcome). The Spurs made late, after the result was more than likely decided pushes, to make them seem closer than they were and even with the correct calls, likely would have lost them either way.

2) Beyond that, there were no real egregious "bad breaks". Sure, Roberson played above his head, but he also did in the WCF and that's the playoffs; that's going to happen in pretty much every series, especially if you go far.

The team flat out wasn't good enough. All season they struggled mightily to score against the other 4 elite teams and it inevitably caught up to them as soon as they had to play 1 in the playoffs.

Luck is fine when you only need to beat 1 team that you're unlikely to, but not 3-4, with 3 being in the same Conference. Presuming Durant re-signs, the Spurs could beat probably beat 3 of the 4 in a damn near everything breaks right scenario, but they should no longer be favored against any.

[Chinook]

1) The Thunder controlled both games 2 and 5 (in this, the incorrect call was more like the final nail in the coffin; it was highly unlikely to have altered the outcome). The Spurs made late, after the result was more than likely decided pushes, to make them seem closer than they were and even with the correct calls, likely would have lost them either way.

I think acting like the Spurs didn't lead for the sizable majority of the fourth quarter in Game Five is silly. The "bad break" in that game gave OKC two points when the score was tied with less than a minute left in the game. There was no "Well OKC was the better team anyway" reasoning about how that match turned out. I'm much more okay with your interpretation of Game Two, because the Spurs never led in the fourth and had their own share of ignored calls down the stretch.


2) Beyond that, there were no real egregious "bad breaks". Sure, Roberson played above his head, but he also did in the WCF and that's the playoffs; that's going to happen in pretty much every series, especially if you go far.

We know Ibaka isn't going to own the Spurs next year. And Waiters isn't likely to be there, either. That OKC has Oladipo and a rookie doesn't exactly mean they're better now. I'm not sure if they keep Ilyasova or not. I wouldn't be too scared of playing against him, as much as I actually do like him.


Luck is fine when you only need to beat 1 team that you're unlikely to, but not 3-4, with 3 being in the same Conference. Presuming Durant re-signs, the Spurs could beat probably beat 3 of the 4 in a damn near everything breaks right scenario, but they should no longer be favored against any.

Who's the third team in the conference? The Clippers? Please. We have no idea how they're going to come back. They certainly haven't done enough to move up over the Spurs yet. I can see OKC being above the Spurs, but they're now in a position where they really can't avoid playing two centers together. Sure, that worked well enough in the WCSF, but now that they don't have Ibaka, they're going to be easy to match up with. And yes, Golden State should be above, though they too have to deal with changes. I'm not sure if them swapping out Barnes, Ezeli and Bogut for Horford makes them scarier in my book. There's a lot more off-season to get through.

As you know, and as you have complained to me about, I am not a fan of bringing Duncan and Manu back, since it means the team will be the same, but older. But if it happens, I don't think it's the end of the world. They just have to hope that with this obviously being the last run, they'll be able to leave it all on the court, like Duncan did against LAC in 2015 and in Game Six this season. It's still a hell of a puncher's chance, and it's possible the rest of the Western contenders are going to be caught flat-footed.

[TD 21]

I think acting like the Spurs didn't lead for the sizable majority of the fourth quarter in Game Five is silly. The "bad break" in that game gave OKC two points when the score was tied with less than a minute left in the game. There was no "Well OKC was the better team anyway" reasoning about how that match turned out. I'm much more okay with your interpretation of Game Two, because the Spurs never led in the fourth and had their own share of ignored calls down the stretch.

Fools gold. In most NBA games of magnitude, the team that sets the tone is usually the team that ends up winning, no matter the route they take to get there. It took all of about 2 minutes into game 5 for me to realize the Spurs were done in 6.


We know Ibaka isn't going to own the Spurs next year. And Waiters isn't likely to be there, either. That OKC has Oladipo and a rookie doesn't exactly mean they're better now. I'm not sure if they keep Ilyasova or not. I wouldn't be too scared of playing against him, as much as I actually do like him.

I think the could potentially be slightly better, without the downside of being worse. Either way, the majority of the problems they cause the Spurs remain.

They're keeping Ilyasova. He's probably their starting power forward, since Durant (if he stays, of course) won't want to play it full time, Kanter only can in select match-ups and there's no other candidate.


Who's the third team in the conference? The Clippers? Please. We have no idea how they're going to come back. They certainly haven't done enough to move up over the Spurs yet. I can see OKC being above the Spurs, but they're now in a position where they really can't avoid playing two centers together. Sure, that worked well enough in the WCSF, but now that they don't have Ibaka, they're going to be easy to match up with. And yes, Golden State should be above, though they too have to deal with changes. I'm not sure if them swapping out Barnes, Ezeli and Bogut for Horford makes them scarier in my book. There's a lot more off-season to get through.

As you know, and as you have complained to me about, I am not a fan of bringing Duncan and Manu back, since it means the team will be the same, but older. But if it happens, I don't think it's the end of the world. They just have to hope that with this obviously being the last run, they'll be able to leave it all on the court, like Duncan did against LAC in 2015 and in Game Six this season. It's still a hell of a puncher's chance, and it's possible the rest of the Western contenders are going to be caught flat-footed.

The Clippers are likely to be back with a vengeance. They feel like they gave away the '14 WCSF to the Thunder and the '15 WCSF to the Rockets, then had injuries derail them in '16. They also know Paul's prime is running on fumes, so they're running out of chances. Combine that motivation with two superior play makers to any on the Spurs and I'd give them the slight edge.

Like I said, they could beat either; I just no longer see a reason to think they'd be the favorite in either case. They no longer have another gear.

I never complained about the sentiment of wanting Duncan and Ginobili to retire.

[Chinook]

Fools gold. In most NBA games of magnitude, the team that sets the tone is usually the team that ends up winning, no matter the route they take to get there. It took all of about 2 minutes into game 5 for me to realize the Spurs were done in 6.

And I'm sure that divining rod of yours finds a whole bunch of water for you and the family. Plenty of people probably thought the same thing after the fourth games of the WCF and the Finals.


I think the could potentially be slightly better, without the downside of being worse. Either way, the majority of the problems they cause the Spurs remain.

Who's going to start at PF for them? There is not currently an answer to that question that doesn't give the Spurs an obvious strategy to attack OKC.


They're keeping Ilyasova. He's probably their starting power forward, since Durant (if he stays, of course) won't want to play it full time, Kanter only can in select match-ups and there's no other candidate.

So now we're assuming Iyasova for Ibaka doesn't potentially make them worse? If Adams is guarding LMA, who's going to protect the rim?


The Clippers are likely to be back with a vengeance.

There is really no reason to believe this. They are older and losing much of their roster either to age or just inefficiency. I certainly am not giving them the nod over SA if they don't get HCA. I honestly think this is the year Doc gets fired, not that they become bona-fide contenders.

[TD 21]

And I'm sure that divining rod of yours finds a whole bunch of water for you and the family. Plenty of people probably thought the same thing after the fourth games of the WCF and the Finals.

I didn't. I thought the WCF was 50/50 at that point and knew it would come down to game 6. I did think the Finals were over, but it took a miracle to pull that off: Two injuries to the Warriors' top six, a one game suspension to their second best player and probably the second best player ever turning back the clock and playing at his peak.

It was also one series, not three (against elite) to win the championship.


Who's going to start at PF for them? There is not currently an answer to that question that doesn't give the Spurs an obvious strategy to attack OKC.

Probably Ilyasova, with Adams obviously defending Aldridge. But they're not stupid: Whether Duncan returns or Gasol is signed to replace him, they'd clearly play plenty of two center lineups again.


So now we're assuming Iyasova for Ibaka doesn't potentially make them worse? If Adams is guarding LMA, who's going to protect the rim?

Already somewhat answered this, but I'll add: Who's going to get to the rim for the Spurs?


There is really no reason to believe this. They are older and losing much of their roster either to age or just inefficiency. I certainly am not giving them the nod over SA if they don't get HCA. I honestly think this is the year Doc gets fired, not that they become bona-fide contenders.

It's often how the NBA works, with elite, veteran teams. In recent years, we saw it with the '14 Spurs and '16 Thunder.

Home court doesn't matter if you don't have another gear. This is why the Spurs have lost four playoff home games to these two teams the last two years.

[Keepin' it real]

I think all the money should be focused on just bringing in talent that isn't old. I would be fine with trading for a guy like Tyreke Evans or signing Eric Gordon or anything like that. If SA can just upgrade the bench Danny/LMA/KL make the SL already great.

Huh, they won't play in summer league?

[Keepin' it real]

It took all of about 2 minutes into game 5 for me to realize the Spurs were done in 6.

Sorry to interrupt y'all's argument, but I just had to jump in and call total bullshit on this.

Carry on ...

[DPG21920]

Huh, they won't play in summer league?

SL = Starting Lineup

[Chinook]

I didn't. I thought the WCF was 50/50 at that point and knew it would come down to game 6. I did think the Finals were over, but it took a miracle to pull that off: Two injuries to the Warriors' top six, a one game suspension to their second best player and probably the second best player ever turning back the clock and playing at his peak.

It was also one series, not three (against elite) to win the championship.

Lebron is easily the best player in the league still. He didn't turn back the clock. He just stepped up. We've seen him do that for years now. Duncan against LAC was turning back the clock. No one should ever think Lebron isn't going to dominate when he has to. The rest is just subjective, and there's no way to get into that productively.


Probably Ilyasova, with Adams obviously defending Aldridge. But they're not stupid: Whether Duncan returns or Gasol is signed to replace him, they'd clearly play plenty of two center lineups again.

If they swap out Pau with Duncan, the Thunder will start off big ... and it simply won't matter. Kanter isn't a good defender. The Spurs would eat them alive on that end. And they'd have no size off the bench at that point. I'm certainly not considering Collison, Ily and Sabonis a dominating bench rotation. I'd expect the Spurs to destroy them with the second units.


Who's going to get to the rim for the Spurs?

Probably their best player now that the Thunder would no longer be starting their best defensive wing.


It's often how the NBA works, with elite, veteran teams. In recent years, we saw it with the '14 Spurs and '16 Thunder.

The Clippers aren't elite. And no, they really just don't have a bench anymore. Not even Crawford or Aldrich. They might have Jeff Green still, but that's hardly intimidating. If you think LAC will somehow pull it together, that's fine. But they definitely shouldn't be favored against the Spurs right now. They have so many more questions including injuries to their second-best player (not worried about Paul since his injury isn't really something that will carry over).


Home court doesn't matter if you don't have another gear. This is why the Spurs have lost four playoff home games to these two teams the last two years.

2015 was definitely an example of the team having another gear. They just didn't have the cohesion they needed. I can agree about this year, though. LAC doesn't have another either, especially if they lose their bench.

[cd021]

Honestly, I don't mind if they bring the same team back with a few minor upgrades, tbh..

Realistically, unless they're landing Durant, they won't be able to acquire a player that will make them a clear level better than they were this past season IMO..continuity and minor upgrades should be sufficient to get them to the WCF-level(which they would have reached, if it wasn't for bad breaks and questionable officiating), and then it comes down to luck, which would be the case, regardless, barring Durant IMO..

I'd rather have another year of being the #3-4 contender in the NBA, as opposed to blowing the entire plan on a declining Mike Conley..


Estimated Roster and actual salaries for 2017


Tony Parker
15,453,126



Danny Green
10,000,000


Kawhi Leonard
18,868,625


LaMarcus Aldridge
21,461,010


Boban Marjanovic
5,000,000


Kyle Anderson
2,151,704


Jonathan Simmons
1,214,746


Dejounte Murray
1,027,700


Boris Diaw
7,500,000





Nikola Multinov
1,036,300


Livio Jean-Charles
?


Davis Bertans
?




$83,713,211



Next years FA class is definitely better maybe that is the best player

Spurs could have around $86 million committed to 12 players after next season, if they were to cut Diaw loose by then then that could give them about $79 million. or about $31 million in cap space if the cap hits $110 million (good chance it is actually higher than). They could use that on a big fish such as KD (if he takes a 1+1 with OKC) or use it to go after one like Serge Ibaka or two players like Amir Johnson and George Hill

[MaNu4Tres]

Estimated Roster and actual salaries for 2017


Tony Parker
15,453,126


Danny Green
10,000,000


Kawhi Leonard
18,868,625


LaMarcus Aldridge
21,461,010


Boban Marjanovic
5,000,000


Kyle Anderson
2,151,704


Jonathan Simmons
1,214,746


Dejounte Murray
1,027,700


Boris Diaw
7,500,000


Tim Duncan
6,393,750


Nikola Multinov
1,036,300


Livio Jean-Charles
?


Davis Bertans
?



90,106,961



Next years FA class is definitely better maybe that is the best player

Spurs could have around $92 million committed to 13 players after next season, if they were to cut Diaw loose by then then that could give them about $85 million. or about $25 million in cap space if the cap hits $110 million. They could use that on a big fish such as KD (if he takes a 1+1 with OKC) or use it to go after one like Serge Ibaka or two players like Amir Johnson and George Hill

Not sure why you're trying to figure out numbers for Summer of 17, when so many variables can change between now & then. ( TD retires, TP or Green traded, Diaw being waived & stretched, Anderson or Simmons being traded, ect

[cd021]

Not sure why you're trying to figure out numbers for Summer of 17, when so many variables can change between now & then. ( TD retires, TP or Green traded, Diaw being waived & stretched, Anderson or Simmons being traded, ect

Sure but I was attempting to show Harlem Heat why waiting to '17 FA makes sense for the Spurs, they could have north of $30 million in cap space and the majority of the roster set (11 players under contract, 12 including Diaw). I cant predict what will happen but as is that is what the Spurs books could look like.

[dbestpro]

Chinook has had what I feel is the best interpretation of what the OKC trade means to the Spurs (see above).
They may be better for it in the long run, but we are better for it as things stand right now.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs are going after another max player. There's no reason they'd have all these people at camp unless they needed warm bodies to potentially fill out the roster.

[Chinook]

The Spurs are going after another max player. There's no reason they'd have all these people at camp unless they needed warm bodies to potentially fill out the roster.

Dunno why the LJC thing has to be interpreted by people. He's in camp because he intends to sign the contract the Spurs promised him three years ago. The team is signing him because that's how promises and stashes work. This has nothing to do with Durant, Duncan or anyone else. There's not a cap scenario where this wasn't going to happen.

Bertans: By all counts, they've wanted to bring him over for a while now. He is supposedly set to make almost four times the rookie min. He's not a "warm body"

LJC: Noted above.

Lorbek: The team brings in their stashes every year for work outs. Hanga will be in if he hasn't already. Same with Dangubic and probably Denmon. Lorbek being a free agent and not high sought after for the first time in like a decade explains why he is just making his first visit -- if this is even his first visit at all.

[TD 21]

Lebron is easily the best player in the league still. He didn't turn back the clock. He just stepped up. We've seen him do that for years now. Duncan against LAC was turning back the clock. No one should ever think Lebron isn't going to dominate when he has to. The rest is just subjective, and there's no way to get into that productively.


Whatever; that's semantics and irrelevant. The point is, the Spurs situation isn't comparable to the Cavs'.

Two injuries to their top six (not including Curry, who was clearly not right) and a one game suspension to their second best player, is not subjective.


If they swap out Pau with Duncan, the Thunder will start off big ... and it simply won't matter. Kanter isn't a good defender. The Spurs would eat them alive on that end. And they'd have no size off the bench at that point. I'm certainly not considering Collison, Ily and Sabonis a dominating bench rotation. I'd expect the Spurs to destroy them with the second units.

Yeah, they might start big. Kanter's defensive issues are more pick and roll and rim protection oriented; not post defense. They should be able to get by with him defending either a 41 year old Duncan or near 37 year old Gasol, neither of which will be the focus of the Spurs offense.

Apparently you've never heard of shortened rotations, which they'd obviously be playing with in the 2nd or 3rd round. So what if both Adams and Kanter start? The Spurs would inevitably remove Duncan/Gasol 6-7 minutes in, at which point they could sub one out, then have him come back for the other and serve as the backup center.


Probably their best player now that the Thunder would no longer be starting their best defensive wing.

Their best player, who has severe troubling getting to the rim. Durant and Oladipo are both capable enough defenders and Leonard has yet to show the capacity to dominate a series offensively.


The Clippers aren't elite. And no, they really just don't have a bench anymore. Not even Crawford or Aldrich. They might have Jeff Green still, but that's hardly intimidating. If you think LAC will somehow pull it together, that's fine. But they definitely shouldn't be favored against the Spurs right now. They have so many more questions including injuries to their second-best player (not worried about Paul since his injury isn't really something that will carry over).

By every team metric, they are. They have so many free agents, it's impossible to say how their bench will look like at the moment. More importantly, the core four will be back.

Spurs-Clippers would be a virtual coin flip.


2015 was definitely an example of the team having another gear. They just didn't have the cohesion they needed. I can agree about this year, though. LAC doesn't have another either, especially if they lose their bench.

You mean '14? The big three and Diaw aren't the same players and the team doesn't play the same way. They're a more conventional team now, yet they're still inferior in star power to the other contenders.

[Chinook]

Whatever; that's semantics and irrelevant. The point is, the Spurs situation isn't comparable to the Cavs'.

Two injuries to their top six (not including Curry, who was clearly not right) and a one game suspension to their second best player, is not subjective.

This is just a pointless line of argument to go down. I have no interest in your claims of having been able to predict the future. I'm not going to say you didn't "know" that about the Spurs. I frankly do no care to get into the subjectivity of that. It has no bearing on reality and no predictive power.


Yeah, they might start big. Kanter's defensive issues are more pick and roll and rim protection oriented; not post defense. They should be able to get by with him defending either a 41 year old Duncan or near 37 year old Gasol, neither of which will be the focus of the Spurs offense.

Gasol has destroyed Kanter repeatedly. The dude is just awful at defense in general. One of the worst in the league.


Apparently you've never heard of shortened rotations, which they'd obviously be playing with in the 2nd or 3rd round. So what if both Adams and Kanter start? The Spurs would inevitably remove Duncan/Gasol 6-7 minutes in, at which point they could sub one out, then have him come back for the other and serve as the backup center.

A snide remark that misses the point. Losing Ibaka means the Thunder no longer have the ability to both match up again the Spurs' starting lineup while also playing two seven-footers against the bench. If the Spurs have three tall bigs (Duncan, LMA and Andersen) to match up against OKC's two, then OKC doesn't really have the size advantage anymore. They go from having three legit bigs to having two and question marks.


Their best player, who has sever troubling getting to the rim. Durant and Oladipo are both capable enough defenders and Leonard has yet to show the capacity to dominate a series offensively.

If you mean that he isn't dropping 40 consistently, yeah. If you mean that he hasn't absolutely gone off on bad defense, no. And it's not just him anyway. Having worse defenders out there is going to make everyone's job easier.


By every team metric they are. They have so many free agents, it's impossible to say how their bench will look like at the moment. More importantly, the core four will be back.

No. Maybe by every metric, they rank in the top something, maybe. Elite is a matter of subjective analysis. If elite means top three, then they aren't. Or if elite means top five regular-season records, then they aren't. Or one of the last four in the playoffs. There are a lot of reasons to not put them in the same category as teams that have lost the Finals one year and won it the following year.

Anyway, their core will be back, as will the Spurs' core. But it's not obvious that Griffin will be healthy after reinjuring his hip. And if you take the guys under contract for the Spurs and compare that to the guys under contract for the Clippers, it's not very close right now. They have a ton of work to do -- more so than the Spurs. You can act like it's a coin-flip all you want. I won't even dispute that. But that's taking a step back from saying they were the favorites just a post-cycle ago.


You mean '14? The big three and Diaw aren't the same players and the team doesn't play the same way. They're a more conventional team now, yet they're still inferior in star power to the other contenders.

I meant 2015. Duncan, Leonard, Parker and Green all had games where they individually hit that next level. But they just didn't have them at the same time -- especially in the second half of that series.

[GSH]

I just worry a lot about the perimeter defense unless Gordon dedicates himself to that end.


http://www.latina.com/sites/default/files/franco.gif

[Chinook]

http://www.latina.com/sites/default/files/franco.gif

Gordon is a good defender. You can say a lot of things about him, but him being a bad defender isn't really one.

[GSH]

Gordon is a good defender. You can say a lot of things about him, but him being a bad defender isn't really one.

I was talking about him dedicating himself to it. He plays defense when he wants to - always has.

When he was leaving Charlotte, he blamed his shitty play (and refusal to play defense) on the fact that the coach had never played in the NBA. I'm sure I could dig up the article, but he didn't leave any gray area. You're right that he CAN play D, and the team would need him to. But he's never shown much willingness to put the team first. He pouts, he takes games off, and he acts bored playing defense way too often.

Who knows? Maybe the Spurs' culture could influence him. But I'd have to see it to believe it. And if he didn't think Pop was giving him enough minutes? Meh... I can easily see him going the way of SJax II. I can't easily see him dedicating himself to defense.

[Chinook]

I was talking about him dedicating himself to it. He plays defense when he wants to - always has.

When he was leaving Charlotte, he blamed his shitty play (and refusal to play defense) on the fact that the coach had never played in the NBA. I'm sure I could dig up the article, but he didn't leave any gray area. You're right that he CAN play D, and the team would need him to. But he's never shown much willingness to put the team first. He pouts, he takes games off, and he acts bored playing defense way too often.

Who knows? Maybe the Spurs' culture could influence him. But I'd have to see it to believe it. And if he didn't think Pop was giving him enough minutes? Meh... I can easily see him going the way of SJax II. I can't easily see him dedicating himself to defense.

Charlotte? I'm talking about Eric Gordon, who as far as I know has only played with NO and LAC.

[TD 21]

This is just a pointless line of argument to go down. I have no interest in your claims of having been able to predict the future. I'm not going to say you didn't "know" that about the Spurs. I frankly do no care to get into the subjectivity of that. It has no bearing on reality and no predictive power.

You've moved the goal posts and are missing the missing the point.

The point is, what it took for the Cavs to win isn't applicable to the Spurs.


Gasol has destroyed Kanter repeatedly. The dude is just awful at defense in general. One of the worst in the league.

The bottom line is, their length and athleticism has repeatedly proven to smother the Spurs offense (sure, Ibaka was a big part of that, but he wasn't the only part).

I also like their and the other three teams elite chances against the Spurs in close games, because they all have superior play makers.


A snide remark that misses the point. Losing Ibaka means the Thunder no longer have the ability to both match up again the Spurs' starting lineup while also playing two seven-footers against the bench. If the Spurs have three tall bigs (Duncan, LMA and Andersen) to match up against OKC's two, then OKC doesn't really have the size advantage anymore. They go from having three legit bigs to having two and question marks.

So what? I don't believe that swings this match-up and it may not even be true. If Duncan returns and by that point is in the same state he was in at the end of this past season, they can get by with Ilyasova on him unfortunately.


If you mean that he isn't dropping 40 consistently, yeah. If you mean that he hasn't absolutely gone off on bad defense, no. And it's not just him anyway. Having worse defenders out there is going to make everyone's job easier.

No, I mean that he struggles mightily creating for others and getting to the line, so when he has the inevitable off shooting nights, he doesn't offer much offensively and the same goes for Aldridge.


No. Maybe by every metric, they rank in the top something, maybe. Elite is a matter of subjective analysis. If elite means top three, then they aren't. Or if elite means top five regular-season records, then they aren't. Or one of the last four in the playoffs. There are a lot of reasons to not put them in the same category as teams that have lost the Finals one year and won it the following year.

Anyway, their core will be back, as will the Spurs' core. But it's not obvious that Griffin will be healthy after reinjuring his hip. And if you take the guys under contract for the Spurs and compare that to the guys under contract for the Clippers, it's not very close right now. They have a ton of work to do -- more so than the Spurs. You can act like it's a coin-flip all you want. I won't even dispute that. But that's taking a step back from saying they were the favorites just a post-cycle ago.

Not maybe, they do and have pretty much since Paul arrived.

By next season, what the Spurs did in '13 and '14 will be 3 and 4 seasons ago. They're not the same team, haven't been since then and a barring something unforeseen, lack the capacity to improve much, if at all.

A virtual coin flip, but subjectively, in a best case scenario for both teams, I'd give them the slight edge.


I meant 2015. Duncan, Leonard, Parker and Green all had games where they individually hit that next level. But they just didn't have them at the same time -- especially in the second half of that series.

I meant collectively.

It's been obvious for the past 2 seasons that the Spurs don't have that gear anymore. They had one dominant performance against an elite last season (game 1 of the WCSF) and otherwise struggled mightily to score against all of them.

I've lost all confidence in their ability to beat an elite team in a series and have them as fifth most likely to win the championship next season.

[Chinook]

You've moved the goal posts and are missing the missing the point.

Nah, you missed the point hence:


The point is, what it took for the Cavs to win isn't applicable to the Spurs.

We were talking about whether the calls against the Spurs in Game Five and Game Two had a legitimate affect on the outcome. You said they didn't because 'you knew they were going to lose the whole time'. I am saying I don't care about your claim. Maybe you did believe that. That doesn't matter and honestly this point doesn't matter either way. I am willing to scrap that entire argument for an "agree to disagree" resolution because it's just a sinkhole.


The bottom line is, their length and athleticism has repeatedly proven to smother the Spurs offense (sure, Ibaka was a big part of that, but he wasn't the only part).

So are we ignoring 2014 in all this, or is it okay to chalk that one up to Ibaka being hurt but now assume that Ibaka wouldn't have been a huge factor in subsequent matchups?


So what? I don't believe that swings this match-up and it may not even be true. If Duncan returns and by that point is in the same state he was in at the end of this past season, they can get by with Ilyasova on him unfortunately.

So you're assuming Duncan gets injured again, which is whatever because I'm not assuming he's going to be tremendous either. But yes, losing one of their three legit bigs matters a lot considering you have been the leader of the "Spurs are too small to beat OKC" party. OKC is functionally smaller now than they were last year. If the Spurs get bigger at the same time, then it makes no sense to still give the nod to OKC.


No, I mean that he struggles mightily creating for others and getting to the line, so when he has the inevitable off shooting nights, he doesn't offer much offensively and the same goes for Aldridge.

I mean, even if Durant and Westbrook are better play-makers, them having bad-shooting nights is just as deleterious, especially considering that they won't shoot less because of it. And now there's no Ibaka to shoot a bunch of fluky threes to balance them out.


Not maybe, they do and have pretty much since Paul arrived.

They don't. They have been a third-tier team the entire time. If you want to call that elite, I don't care. But if you want to act like they were in 2013 Spurs or 2015 Cavs, then I disagree strongly. They've never made it out of the second round. They simply don't have much to stand on right now.


By next season, what the Spurs did in '13 and '14 will be 3 and 4 seasons ago. They're not the same team, haven't been since then and a barring something unforeseen, lack the capacity to improve much, if at all.

First, who cares? Second, they have Aldridge now. They are much better than they were in 2015. And LMA has every chance to get better, as does Kawhi. Hell, even Parker has a chance to improve over last season if he finds a way to fit into his role better. It's not like the Clippers have all this untapped potential.


I don't care what you say, to me, this team is no better than tied for fourth most likely to win the championship next season.

Subjective probability is almost completely useless. I couldn't care less about their "likelihood" to win. They either will or they won't. The question isn't how can they raise that number. It's what is the best team they can build after all is said and done. They don't need to think about other teams right now.

[TD 21]

Nah, you missed the point hence:

We were talking about whether the calls against the Spurs in Game Five and Game Two had a legitimate affect on the outcome. You said they didn't because 'you knew they were going to lose the whole time'. I am saying I don't care about your claim. Maybe you did believe that. That doesn't matter and honestly this point doesn't matter either way. I am willing to scrap that entire argument for an "agree to disagree" resolution because it's just a sinkhole.

That was the initial point, but you love to veer off topic.

Another example of your lack of reading comprehension. I said they likely wouldn't have altered the outcome and that it ignores the reality that they controlled both games.


So are we ignoring 2014 in all this, or is it okay to chalk that one up to Ibaka being hurt but now assume that Ibaka wouldn't have been a huge factor in subsequent matchups?

This isn't '14 anymore and I've always maintained, if Ibaka plays in the first 2 games, who knows how that series plays out? What we do know is, from game 3 of the '12 WCF on, the Thunder have had the Spurs number.

If you could transport the '14 Spurs to the '17 Spurs AND minus Ibaka, yeah, I'm not only favoring them over the Thunder, but any other team.


So you're assuming Duncan gets injured again, which is whatever because I'm not assuming he's going to be tremendous either. But yes, losing one of their three legit bigs matters a lot considering you have been the leader of the "Spurs are too small to beat OKC" party. OKC is functionally smaller now than they were last year. If the Spurs get bigger at the same time, then it makes no sense to still give the nod to OKC.

I'm not assuming, what I'm saying is, I'm not banking on 41 year old Duncan or should he retire, near 37 year old Gasol, to swing this match-up.

I don't think I've ever once uttered the term "Spurs are too small to beat OKC". More made up shit.


I mean, even if Durant and Westbrook are better play-makers, them having bad-shooting nights is just as deleterious, especially considering that they won't shoot less because of it. And now there's no Ibaka to shoot a bunch of fluky threes to balance them out.

They at least get to the line at a high rate.


They don't. They have been a third-tier team the entire time. If you want to call that elite, I don't care. But if you want to act like they were in 2013 Spurs or 2015 Cavs, then I disagree strongly. They've never made it out of the second round. They simply don't have much to stand on right now.

Don't get me wrong, they've always been the last contender, a fringe one more than a true one. Projecting ahead to next season, I see the Spurs as now in that class.


First, who cares? Second, they have Aldridge now. They are much better than they were in 2015. And LMA has every chance to get better, as does Kawhi. Hell, even Parker has a chance to improve over last season if he finds a way to fit into his role better. It's not like the Clippers have all this untapped potential.

They're not as good as they were. I don't care what their record and point differential says.

Aldridge will be 31 entering his 11th season. Parker is an extremely rare example of getting better at that point. Most players either maintain or begin to decline.

Leonard will probably get incrementally better.

Parker will be another year older, coming off of another summer playing. He has no chance to be better and will be hard pressed to maintain.

The Clippers don't need untapped potential to beat the Spurs.


Subjective probability is almost completely useless. I couldn't care less about their "likelihood" to win. They either will or they won't. The question isn't how can they raise that number. It's what is the best team they can build after all is said and done. They don't need to think about other teams right now.

They won't because they're no longer good enough. Whether they'd be favorites over the Clippers is irrelevant. If Durant stays, you'd have to be delusional to think this team is beating three of the Warriors, Thunder, Cavaliers and Clippers.

[ElNono]

Hopefully to package him into some trade... he didn't look like an NBA player last summer...

[GSH]

Charlotte? I'm talking about Eric Gordon, who as far as I know has only played with NO and LAC.


Awww hell... you did say Eric. How are the Spurs going to afford him? He's going to get at least full MLE money. I think it's more likely that someone is going to give him in the neighborhood of $8-9M. Maybe even $10-11 if his finger is totally fine, and he looks like he could be back at his best. If the FA market is as crazy as people are saying, that's not out of the question.

Sorry I didn't read closely enough, but when you were talking about him coming off the bench, I assumed you were talking about Ben. Yeah, Eric Gordon would be a hell of an addition, and he might sign to be a first guy off the bench. But I don't think he'll be signing any bargain contract to come here and just be part of a second unit. I think his finger will be fine, and he'll be starting for someone next season.

I went back and re-read, and you're talking about S&T to get him. What could the Spurs give that NO would be interested in? NO would have to get something tangible, to give up that cap space. Danny? That's about what it would take to get a S&T done, but it seems kind of self-defeating. Give up a starter to add a first-rate sixth man?

If there's a way to afford him, and he'd agree to come in a sixth man role, hell yeah I'd love to have him. That's a scenario to be excited about. Don't leave me hanging - what did you have in mind to make the money work? Sign Durant and be able to sign Gordon for the full MLE? If the Spurs could to that, and cobble together a couple of serviceable bigs? They would be right back in the mix next season. I think that's too many big "ifs" to actually happen, but it's a nice dream.

[tholdren]

I've always wondered what chinook looks like

[Chinook]

Awww hell... you did say Eric. How are the Spurs going to afford him? He's going to get at least full MLE money. I think it's more likely that someone is going to give him in the neighborhood of $8-9M. Maybe even $10-11 if his finger is totally fine, and he looks like he could be back at his best. If the FA market is as crazy as people are saying, that's not out of the question.

Sorry I didn't read closely enough, but when you were talking about him coming off the bench, I assumed you were talking about Ben. Yeah, Eric Gordon would be a hell of an addition, and he might sign to be a first guy off the bench. But I don't think he'll be signing any bargain contract to come here and just be part of a second unit. I think his finger will be fine, and he'll be starting for someone next season.

I went back and re-read, and you're talking about S&T to get him. What could the Spurs give that NO would be interested in? NO would have to get something tangible, to give up that cap space. Danny? That's about what it would take to get a S&T done, but it seems kind of self-defeating. Give up a starter to add a first-rate sixth man?

If there's a way to afford him, and he'd agree to come in a sixth man role, hell yeah I'd love to have him. That's a scenario to be excited about. Don't leave me hanging - what did you have in mind to make the money work? Sign Durant and be able to sign Gordon for the full MLE? If the Spurs could to that, and cobble together a couple of serviceable bigs? They would be right back in the mix next season. I think that's too many big "ifs" to actually happen, but it's a nice dream.

The Gordon comments come from talk about a Durant-less scenario, where the Spurs are forced to use the MLE and trades to improve around what is basically the same lineup. I also brought up Gordon when talking about pure cap scenarios. The hope is that the Spurs can essentially use the $20 Million or so that they'd have from everyone leaving to get Gordon and a legit starting big. Eric replaces Manu as the main offensive threat off the bench while the big replaces Duncan.

[SAGirl]

The Gordon comments come from talk about a Durant-less scenario, where the Spurs are forced to use the MLE and trades to improve around what is basically the same lineup. I also brought up Gordon when talking about pure cap scenarios. The hope is that the Spurs can essentially use the $20 Million or so that they'd have from everyone leaving to get Gordon and a legit starting big. Eric replaces Manu as the main offensive threat off the bench while the big replaces Duncan. I think a scenario like that could help reinforce what is essentially a similar team if they were to remain mostly the same. They didn't get enough from the bench. I think personally the lack of a real presence inside from the bench group hurt them. Manu used to be an athletic guard that blew by bigs from a simple pick so you didn't need anyone else but him.

After years he could get by with his passing ability if he had a decent to great PnR big to whom he could pass to. Tiago worked wonders with Manu in that role. Alas, D west is not a good pick and roll big and from there on, everything was a contested jumpsho for everyone. It could work with an athletic guard in Manu's mold who can get to the rim on his own, or with a big who can score at the basket. Boban works in the last scenario, so we'll see. I do think they will try to reinforce the bench specifically and it's probably going beyond just bringing our stashed younger players over.

I think they aim to rebuild around Kawhi and are culling the potentials from the ones who will make it within the next couple of seasons, but they will still add someone for more immediate help. In reality you convinced me we are not that far off and a FA who addresses an area of weakness (doesn't have to be a star, just someone who can fix one of our problems at least), together with improvement from the younger players will keep us in contention. Teams always need a bit of luck to get past other elite teams if they are not that far off anyways.

[GSH]

The Gordon comments come from talk about a Durant-less scenario, where the Spurs are forced to use the MLE and trades to improve around what is basically the same lineup. I also brought up Gordon when talking about pure cap scenarios. The hope is that the Spurs can essentially use the $20 Million or so that they'd have from everyone leaving to get Gordon and a legit starting big. Eric replaces Manu as the main offensive threat off the bench while the big replaces Duncan.


Gotcha. I got caught skimming.

I think that $20M for Gordon and a legit big is going to be tough, but I guess that depends on how you define "legit". After seeing what OKC did to Golden State, I predicted that there was going to be a new big-man arms race this offseason. OKC blew the 3-1 lead, but I think the effect will still be the same.

Last time I looked, teams could only use the full (big) MLE if they are over the cap. Is that still the case? So I guess they could sign a big player and a few vet-min role players, then give Gordon the full MLE, assuming he would play for that? There should be enough room between the cap and the lux tax threshold for that. I know they always want to keep salaries in check, but they really don't want to play with the tax.

I hope Durant doesn't drag his feet. I don't think he's coming to SA, but it would be a real disaster if he waited a long time to decide not to, and the Spurs miss out on other players.

[Chinook]

Last time I looked, teams could only use the full (big) MLE if they are over the cap

It's a little stricter than that. Teams can only use the MLE if the START THE SEASON over the cap. So there isn't a spending to the limit then having $5 Million more to spend. They get the $3-Million room exception. The moment they go under the cap.

I think Gordon may take a short deal for $6-8 Million a season. That would leave $13-15 Million to use on a big. Should be enough to lure at least one good one. Would potentially cost Boban, though.

[MaNu4Tres]

Yes. Spurs should go after Roger Mason Jr all over again with Eric Gordon -- a defensive midget and liability. My goodness.

For as much as you post Chinook, you throw all you can at the wall in hopes of something to stick. From Kyle O Quinn to now Eric Gordon... Jesus, please help us all.

Hell no to Eric Gordon.

[Chinook]

Yes. Spurs should go after Roger Mason Jr all over again with Eric Gordon -- a defensive midget and liability. My goodness.

For as much as you post Chinook, you throw all you can at the wall in hopes of something to stick. From Kyle O Quinn to now Eric Gordon... Jesus, please help us all.

Hell no to Eric Gordon.

Still riding that butt-hurt train for all it's worth, I see.

[MaNu4Tres]

Still riding that butt-hurt train for all it's worth, I see.

If you had any sense, you'd understand Manu is likely coming back, plus Spurs are loaded as it is at the wing with Kawhi and Green starting, and then with Bertans joining the Anderson/Simmons bench competition.

Why allocate the limited/valuable cap space towards most crowded position on the Spurs roster? Gordon would just stunt the growth of Anderson, Bertans, Murray while giving up truck loads of production from opposing wings because he can't defend worth a crap.

Get out of here with that Eric Gordon garbage.

[Chinook]

This is so damned sad, dude.


If you had any sense, you'd understand Manu is likely coming back

Hence me telling GSH that the Gordon comments weren't really meant for the roster with Durant on it or even both Mills and Manu. You'd know that if you bothered to actually read instead of acting like a scorned lover anytime you see my screen name.


Spurs are loaded as it is at the wing with Kawhi and Green starting, and then with Bertans joining the Anderson/Simmons bench competition.

That's not even remotely loaded, especially considering that none of them are combo-guards.


Why allocate the limited/valuable cap space towards most crowded position on the Spurs roster?

Better than signing Miles Plumlee.


Gordon would just stunt the growth of Anderson, Bertans, Murray

Doesn't play the same position as Anderson or Bertans, and Murray staying in the d-league for a year or so is not even remotely a bad thing. Manu would stunt Anderson's growth more than anyone.


while giving up truck loads of production from opposing wings because he can't defend worth a crap

Giving up truck-loads of production as a bench guard? He's not going to be worst than Beli or Neal.

[TD 21]

That's not even remotely loaded, especially considering that none of them are combo-guards.

Neither is Gordon.

[SAGirl]

^^ I was going to say, Pop has taken in a large share of sieve guards so long as they could score. Heck all you had to run was a PNR defended by Mills and D west and you got a bucket or a foul, unfortunately.

[TD 21]

^^ I was going to say, Pop has taken in a large share of sieve guards so long as they could score. Heck all you had to run was a PNR defended by Mills and D west and you got a bucket or a foul, unfortunately.

The only scenario Gordon could make sense in, is one where both Ginobili and Mills are gone and the backup back court is remade, since he's not a fit next to the former defensively or the latter offensively.

[GSH]

Gordon's problem has been injuries, and the team he's been on. He was a totally different player on the Clippers. He signed an offer sheet with the Suns, and made it clear he didn't want to be in New Orleans, but the Pelicans matched it. So when he got injured, the fans insisted that he did it on purpose so he wouldn't have to play.

He's actually a pretty decent defender. But he's not a lock-down perimeter stopper, which I guess is what people expect? On a team where all 5 guys are playing defense, he would more than hold his own. NO has been a better defensive team during the times he was on the court. He put up something like 1,200 points in each of his first three seasons with the Clippers. Last season, the Spurs only had two players put up over 900 points. If he's health enough, the Spurs could sure as shit use his scoring ability.

I don't know how healthy he is or isn't. But if he is ready to go, my biggest problem with him is that I think someone is still going to over-pay for him. He's got one hell of a lot of upside, at the right price, and the Spurs would have ample opportunity to see if he's healthy. I just don't think he will be available at the right price.

[SAGirl]

Going back to LJC. I imagine he has another SL workout and I hope to see him play better. He seemed too raw last time, though one can tell he's an athlete who plays with a lot of energy something the Spurs need, so I would really want to see some improvement from the last SL.

The moves to bring all these rookies in, not just LJC, but Milutinov and Dejonte, set us up to have 3 rookies just in our first round picks, and adding Bertans that's 4. On top of that they seem to want to resign Boban, and Simmons and Anderson are likely staying put. That's 7 new, to relatively new playes, some of them very young with a timeline of a couple of years until they show us something. Some who are under a bit more pressure to show us something already next season. Still that's a lot of youth. Eventually some of these guys will fall out. Probabilities say at least half will not pan out, or maybe they will but later, somewhere else. But Spurs will get a look at all of them up close, will try to help those who can be helped and the ones who are too far off from being an NBA player we will know in a couple of seasons, but it's a cheap way to fill up a roster with some hopefuls and potential players. In a way it makes one suspicious that some kind of move is coming, though I am on the disbelief camp, but if Timmy and Manu do retire, what's to hold Pop from making the roster they want to make and selecting the young players that they believe complement Kawhi better and will be the best players of these particular rookie group.

It seems almost unbelievable for the Spurs to have this many young guys in the team. Something is up.

[objective]

I strongly doubt that the Spurs have both Boban and Milutinov on the roster next season. And if Boban is gone and they do bring in Milutinov, he'll matter just as much as Boban did. Limited garbage time minutes and glued to the bench while West and Diaw get humiliated.

LJC and Murray will probably be in the d-league and inactive most of the NBA season.

Really the only addition that matters to an active roster if Boban returns is Bertans, who will likely be limited to spot minutes in a Bonner role until Pop losses another playoff series and decides to give him a real chance, no doubt overcompensating for his mistake to the media by declaring him his favorite player.

So even though I would love a youth/stash movement of new players on the team, and would love if the same Pop who started a rookie Parker showed up and played the young guys, I don't think anything is going on that's unusual. Nothing's up, other than giving LJC a charity reward spot, covering their Bonner spot with Bertans before his knee explodes by again, and getting another Corey Joseph to take years to develop into a player before he leaves in free agency.

[jon123spurs]

Paul Garcia PS (@PaulGarciaPS) tweeted at 4:07 PM on Fri, Jul 22, 2016:
The Spurs have officially signed Livio Jean-Charles. That's 15 contracts on the books, 12 guaranteed.
(https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/756596510154973185?s=03)

[Chinook]

Paul Garcia PS (@PaulGarciaPS) tweeted at 4:07 PM on Fri, Jul 22, 2016:
The Spurs have officially signed Livio Jean-Charles. That's 15 contracts on the books, 12 guaranteed.
(https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/756596510154973185?s=03)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=earBakicmt0

[TheGreatYacht]

Just fucking admit it RC, you drafted a fucking dud per par. No need to force him on the roster

[Ditty]

Stick him in Austin, and see if he could be at least a good rim protector and rebounder. Kid has shown he has talent in the past, so hopefully he develops properly now with the Spurs.

[spurs50_]

This dude sucks ass....

[raybies]

Hopefully the spurs saw something they liked otherwise this is just a loyalty contract for his years overseas.

[ceperez]

SAN ANTONIO (July 22, 2016) – The San Antonio Spurs today announced that they have signed forward Livio Jean-Charles. Per club policy, terms of the contract were not announced.

Jean-Charles, 6-9/225, was originally drafted by the Spurs with the 28th overall pick in the 2013 NBA Draft. The 22-year-old has spent the last four seasons with ASVEL Lyon-Villeurbanne of the French Pro-A League. Last season he saw action in 25 games, averaging 5.9 points and 4.6 rebounds in 21.2 minutes while shooting .552 (64-116) from the field and .655 (19-29) from the foul line. In the playoffs he appeared in 11 games, upping his averages to 7.5 points and 4.8 rebounds in 25.9 minutes helping lead ASVEL to the French League championship. Jean-Charles also made eight FIBA Europe Cup appearances, averaging 8.8 points, 6.3 rebounds and 1.6 assists in 23.9 minutes.

Prior to joining Lyon-Villeurbanne, Jean-Charles spent two seasons with Centre Federal du Basket-Ball in the French-NM1 League.

Jean-Charles represented France on the U-20 National Team at the 2012 and 2013 U-20 European Championships. At the 2013 U-20 Championships, he averaged 17.3 points, 6.3 rebounds and 1.5 assists.

In April 2013, Jean-Charles participated in the Nike Hoop Summit where he was named the Most Outstanding Player after a 27-point, 13-rebound effort, leading the World Team to a 112-98 win over the USA Junior Select Team that included current NBA players Karl-Anthony Towns, Joel Embiid and Jabari Parker.

[ceperez]

Let's hope he turns out to become Ibaka Lite.

Roster seems full now:

Gasol / Dedmon
Aldridge / Jean Charles
Leonard / Anderson / Bertans
Green / Ginobili / Simmons
Parker / Mills / Murray

Forbes, Arcidiacono both unguaranteed.

Lalanne stashed to China.

Spurs might bring in Ndoye to training camp.

But that's all folks.... something tells me that the Spurs might sign 2 vet. min. players during the season.

[TheGreatYacht]

2016 Summer League stats (3 games, 17MPG):
4.0ppg, 1.7rpg, 1.0apg, 1.0spg, 0.7bpg, 2.3TO

2016 Euro stats (25 games, 21.2MPG):
5.9ppg, 4.6rpg, 0.9apg, 0.4spg, 0.5bpg, 1.0TO

[ulosturedge]

I just don't understand what this dudes been doing the past year. He has shown like no development. Maybe he's been told not to shoot. He looked scared and tenative when shooting jumpers. He's got no dribble drive moves. For someone with so much natural athletic ability and length he moves sheepishly around the court. What a waste of potential.

[Chinook]

Better than Kevin Martin.

[raybies]

Better than Kevin Martin.

:rolleyes

[elemento]

like 2 years late

[td4mvp2k]

thats 15 :tu lets get the season started!

[TheGreatYacht]

Probably tore an ACL signing his contract, tbh.

[Chinook]

I just don't understand what this dudes been doing the past year. He has shown like no development. Maybe he's been told not to shoot. He looked scared and tenative when shooting jumpers. He's got no dribble drive moves. For someone with so much natural athletic ability and length he moves sheepishly around the court. What a waste of potential.

I don't think he got the green light. Guys like Murray, Anderson and Simmons were told go out there and make something happen. I think LJC was trying to figure out how to play with those guys. I'm not sure how much he got to practice with the SL team prior to obtaining his insurance. He made some good plays, but he'd try to make others, and the timing just wasn't there. Screens didn't connect, switches were a little late, he'd have an open roll to the rim and his man wouldn't see him. I expect that to improve with time.

What I am less confident in is him improving his strength on the boards. That's non-negotiable. And he does need to figure out what he can do on offense. Dude's been caught between positions for too long. Hopefully, with Cady overseas, LJC will get all the minutes he can handle at the four in Austin.

[Chinook]

:rolleyes

I know. Who isn't?

[raybies]

:lol ^^^

[Chinook]

Paul Garcia PS (@PaulGarciaPS) tweeted at 4:07 PM on Fri, Jul 22, 2016:
The Spurs have officially signed Livio Jean-Charles. That's 15 contracts on the books, 12 guaranteed.
(https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/756596510154973185?s=03)

Also I guess he isn't counting Simmons as guaranteed yet. This is what I have.

Parker, Mills, Murray all gtd Arcidiacono - not fully gtd
Green, Ginobili all gtd, Forbes - not fully gtd
Leonard, Simmons, Bertans - all gtd
Aldridge, Anderson, LJC - all gtd
Gasol, Dedmon - all gtd

[Solid D]

Austin Spurs forward. He needs some serious deprogramming.

[ceperez]

Also I guess he isn't counting Simmons as guaranteed yet. This is what I have.

Parker, Mills, Murray all gtd Arcidiacono - not fully gtd
Green, Ginobili all gtd, Forbes - not fully gtd
Leonard, Simmons, Bertans - all gtd
Aldridge, Anderson, LJC - all gtd
Gasol, Dedmon - all gtd

Rookies - Bertans, Murray, LJC, Forbes, Arcidiacono (5????)

Well.. I can get used to this team. Spurs will likely need one more vet. I don't think Spurs will pick up both Forbes and Arci.

LJC and Murray will likely also play a lot in Austin (unless Pop has changed).

The team is certainly the MOST athletic team in a very long while.