Tony Parker Vs Manu Ginobili...

[apalisoc_9]

Who was a more dangerous offensive player in their respective peaks?

Don't include defense. This is not a who is a better player thread.

[urunobili]

All I know is that peak Manu is a top 100 player ever...

[SpursFan86]

I'd say Manu...especially since Tony's efficiency almost always took a major hit in the playoffs.

[RD2191]

Manu, easily.

[slick'81]

Who cares?right how neither is very good

[Kawhitstorm]

Porker was exposed as a bum once he lost his burst of speed ala Ty Lawson.:wakeup

[TrainOfThought5]

Manu is probably still better Parker, offensively.

[SpursFan86]

Porker was exposed as a bum once he lost his burst of speed ala Ty Lawson.:wakeup

Not sure how this is relevant considering OP is asking about their offenses at their peak.

[hater]

Parker >>> Thompson >>>>> Manure

[phxspurfan]

Manu for sure. In his peak he helped take out the early '00's Lakers and Pistons. All while Parker had to be saved by backups. And pretty much every time Parker dominated we lost or got reverse swept (except 07, but that win was all about Bowen).

[Chinook]

Can't speak too much about Prime Manu, but Prime Parker may be the only PG around which a team could build a post-centric offense. The stuff he used to be able to do with the ball would push the hopes people are having for Leonard and LMA on that end to shame. Manu would easily be the best two-guard in the game right now, while I'm not sure that Prime Tony would be ahead of Curry or even CP3. So that's something else to consider.

[Kawhitstorm]

Not sure how this is relevant considering OP is asking about their offenses at their peak.

Porker in his PRIME had trouble against quick PGs that were wet-behind-the-ears: Devin Harris('06)/Conley('11).:wakeup

:lolBoobie Gibson/Eric Snow might as well have been statues:lol

It's a shame he didn't dominate Fisher in 2008, thb.:rolleyes

[MaNu4Tres]

Prime Manu is a top 5 SG to ever play the game.

Give me Prime Manu over Prime Parker any day of the week.

Manu could score driving to the basket, pulling up from mid-range, pulling up from 3, elite passer, great defender both on and off ball. The guy was a monster.

[MaNu4Tres]

Porker in his PRIME had trouble against quick PGs that were wet-behind-the-ears: Devin Harris('06)/Conley('11).:wakeup

:lolBoobie Gibson/Eric Snow might as well have been statues:lol

It's a shame he didn't dominate Fisher in 2008, thb.:rolleyes

Its a shame how Parker cherry picked the Finals MVP from TD in 07' exploiting his matchup vs. a D-Leaguer and stat padding. It's a shame how people think Parker was the best player that run just because he got Finals MVP. Duncan was by far the best player and was the MVP of the Suns series (which was essentially the Finals that year).

Still bugs me he got it that year. Should have been TD.

[$pursDynasty]

really is the dead part of the season if player vs player threads are starting back up, ah well football will be here soon enough. As for me give me MVParker.

[beirmeistr]

I would use the 2005 finals against a strong defensive Pistons team, the defending champs, as a measure to answer the question.

[keeferob25]

Since you say offensive threat as in overall offensive package and not just scoring then the only answer honestly is Manu. His passing/vision puts a large ass gap between the two. Tony's vision quite frankly didn't extend much beyond his "find Duncan" two-man game. Manu could create all over the floor. And also, put a tall person on Parker or have him go up against any semblance of a physical defense and he's fucking done for the series. Manu could punish most any type of player or defense with his style.

[gambit1990]

Manu, easily.

[Kool Bob Love]

Parker/thread.

[slick'81]

Everyne knows in his prime manu was by far the better player,more dominant.manu probably has a higher chance at hof.we also have this thread every season.

[RD2191]

Parker/thread.
No/Faggot

[Spurtacular]

Pink the OP, tbh.

[benefactor]

2009 ST tbh

[I. Hustle]

Today's Spurstalk lol

[SpursforSix]

Who was more awesome? Velociraptor or T-Rex?

[testies]

Porker was the better scorer in his prime.

[SASdynasty!]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 14.0/4.0/3.7 on 45% shooting
Parker: 16.6/5.9/2.9 on 49% shooting

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 14.7/3.9/4.2 on 43% shooting
Parker: 18.2/5.2/3.0 on 46% shooting

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

---

I guess in the theoretical world that never actually happened Ginobili was more dangerous offensively though.

[hater]

:lmao ^ manutards

[SASdynasty!]

I would use the 2005 finals against a strong defensive Pistons team, the defending champs, as a measure to answer the question.
You mean when Manu was 27 and Parker was 22? Or is that one of the only series that you can find where Ginobili outplayed Parker? How about 2003? How about 2007? How about 2013? How about 2014? Oh, those aren't good measures. Only 2005.

[TheGreatYacht]

Parker/thread.
Agreed. Whoever disagrees is a homo

[TheGreatYacht]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

---

I guess in the theoretical world that never actually happened Ginobili was more dangerous offensively though.
If Manure wasn't Latino, he would've gotten waived 5 years ago tbh :lmao

[Dre_7]

Stupid thread. Both are awesome.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 14.0/4.0/3.7 on 45% shooting
Parker: 16.6/5.9/2.9 on 49% shooting

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 14.7/3.9/4.2 on 43% shooting
Parker: 18.2/5.2/3.0 on 46% shooting

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

---

I guess in the theoretical world that never actually happened Ginobili was more dangerous offensively though.

I really hope someone else has posted this before me, but your stats couldn't be more simpleton and misleading.

[HI-FI]

all i know is if i need one guy to score a bunch in garbage time, i'm giving the ball to Parker and not looking back.

[TheGreatYacht]

MVParker would've carried a team to a championship had Manure not turned the ball over to Lebron 8 times tbh

Manure ruined a historical run by MVParker:
• torching the Warriors
• smacking the shit outta Tony Allen and Conley
• draining a game winner against Lebron
• putting the team up 5 with 30 seconds left in a championship winning game

[EIC]

Can't speak too much about Prime Manu, but Prime Parker may be the only PG around which a team could build a post-centric offense. The stuff he used to be able to do with the ball would push the hopes people are having for Leonard and LMA on that end to shame. Manu would easily be the best two-guard in the game right now, while I'm not sure that Prime Tony would be ahead of Curry or even CP3. So that's something else to consider.

Good way to say it. Though part of this is a testament to Manu and Parker's relative virtues, and part of it is a commentary on how dark a time it is in the NBA for SGs and how deep the league is at the PG position. It's a PG league right now. I would probably take Irving, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, Thomas, and Lillard over prime Parker. The only SG right now that I would even consider next to prime Manu is Thompson, but I am still taking prime Manu.

[TheGreatYacht]

I'd take Harden, Thompson, Butler, etc.... Shit I'd even take Jamal Crawford in his prime over Manu, has more individual accomplishments tbh

[SASdynasty!]

I really hope someone else has posted this before me, but your stats couldn't be more simpleton and misleading.
Good argument...lots of facts and research. Lots of good points made.

[Chinook]

Who was more awesome? Velociraptor or T-Rex?

I don't think that one's close, tbh.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/66ec43a242c187d99b9831554550ef38/tumblr_mxsapqeyH11rsiohpo1_400.gif

[SASdynasty!]

Good way to say it. Though part of this is a testament to Manu and Parker's relative virtues, and part of it is a commentary on how dark a time it is in the NBA for SGs and how deep the league is at the PG position. It's a PG league right now. I would probably take Irving, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, Thomas, and Lillard over prime Parker. The only SG right now that I would even consider next to prime Manu is Thompson, but I am still taking prime Manu.
I really hope you're talking about the first Isaiah Thomas. Or maybe you would take a journeyman whose never once shot above 45% from the field. Oh, also he's never shot 40% from the field in the playoffs or won a playoff series. Seems about right for Spurstalk.

[SASdynasty!]

all i know is if i need one guy to score a bunch in garbage time, i'm giving the ball to Parker and not looking back.
Better than Manu turning it over 8 times. Oh wait, that turned out NOT to be garbage time.

[houston spurs fan]

OP is gay. Both were awesome in their primes and both made much better because of TD. An obvious attempt of a TP bash fest

[Diego20]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 14.0/4.0/3.7 on 45% shooting
Parker: 16.6/5.9/2.9 on 49% shooting

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 14.7/3.9/4.2 on 43% shooting
Parker: 18.2/5.2/3.0 on 46% shooting

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

---

I guess in the theoretical world that never actually happened Ginobili was more dangerous offensively though.

Minutes per game? LOL stupid TP tard.

TP probably averages 32-33 minutes in his entire career (if not more), while Manu averages like 26?

what about FGA?

lol tp tards:lol

[Diego20]

TP last season (33 years old) 11,9 points per game.

Manu (33 years old) 17,4 points per game (second best of his career, best player of Spurs that year).

lol TP tards

[SASdynasty!]

Minutes per game? LOL stupid TP tard.

TP probably averages 32-33 minutes in his entire career (if not more), while Manu averages like 26?

what about FGA?

lol tp tards:lol
Go ahead and do the Per 36 numbers...Tony's still better. And I posted Manu's crappy FG%...not sure if you know this or not, but that's related to FGA.

[Diego20]

Go ahead and do the Per 36 numbers...Tony's still better. And I posted Manu's crappy FG%...not sure if you know this or not, but that's related to FGA.

Manu is better than TP in most advanced stats.. what about PER? :lol

Also TP is PG so ofc he has better %FG, he doesn't take many 3s unlike SGs.

[SASdynasty!]

TP last season (33 years old) 11,9 points per game.

Manu (33 years old) 17,4 points per game (second best of his career, best player of Spurs that year).

lol TP tards
26 years old:

Ginobili: 12.8/3.8/4.5 on 42%
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51%

Oooh that's even worse!

But I guess if Parker had the luxury of coming into the league 7 years late like Manu, he might have less wear.

[TheGreatYacht]

Parker is more efficient than Manure, and it's not close. Not a bad thing though, Parker is one of the most efficient guards ever. Always around 50fg%

[Diego20]

26 years old:

Ginobili: 12.8/3.8/4.5 on 42%
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51%

Oooh that's even worse!

But I guess if Parker had the luxury of coming into the league 7 years late like Manu, he might have less wear.

TP made only 11,9 points per game last season (33 years old) damn god I don't want to imagine next season, probably will average like 9 points per game.

[TrainOfThought5]

Its a shame how Parker cherry picked the Finals MVP from TD in 07' exploiting his matchup vs. a D-Leaguer and stat padding. It's a shame how people think Parker was the best player that run just because he got Finals MVP. Duncan was by far the best player and was the MVP of the Suns series (which was essentially the Finals that year).

Still bugs me he got it that year. Should have been TD.

I honestly believe that Duncan had a hand in that.

[tmtcsc]

MVParker would've carried a team to a championship had Manure not turned the ball over to Lebron 8 times tbh

Manure ruined a historical run by MVParker:
• torching the Warriors
• smacking the shit outta Tony Allen and Conley
• draining a game winner against Lebron
• putting the team up 5 with 30 seconds left in a championship winning game

:lmao Tony Parker is the ultimate wuss and front-runner. In his career, when things got tough he got sick or injured. Game 6 vs Dallas Mavs in WCF 2003 (tummy ache), Game (take your pick) vs Nets in Championship series - Speedy to the rescue!, Game 6 vs OKC (West Finals) Cojo to the rescue!

Manu is and always will be remembered as an anti-Parker. He is one of the most competitive players the league has ever seen. Unfortunately his body and age caught up with him and he can't do the same things he used to.

[apalisoc_9]

MVParker would've carried a team to a championship had Manure not turned the ball over to Lebron 8 times tbh

Manure ruined a historical run by MVParker:
• torching the Warriors
• smacking the shit outta Tony Allen and Conley
• draining a game winner against Lebron
• putting the team up 5 with 30 seconds left in a championship winning game

That was Kawhi's team. Lets not kid ourselves.

[TheGreatYacht]

That was Kawhi's team. Lets not kid ourselves.
Fuck no it wasn't :lmao

You won't get one person on here to tell you he was the best player in 2013.

[RD2191]

I guess defense doesn't matter to porker fans.

[apalisoc_9]

Fuck no it wasn't :lmao

You won't get one person on here to tell you he was the best player in 2013.

He was easily the best player in 2013..there was thread that year that had timmy and kawhi as 1a and 1b in terms of importance

[TheGreatYacht]

:lmao Tony Parker is the ultimate wuss and front-runner. In his career, when things got tough he got sick or injured. Game 6 vs Dallas Mavs in WCF 2003 (tummy ache), Game (take your pick) vs Nets in Championship series - Speedy to the rescue!, Game 6 vs OKC (West Finals) Cojo to the rescue!

Manu is and always will be remembered as an anti-Parker. He is one of the most competitive players the league has ever seen. Unfortunately his body and age caught up with him and he can't do the same things he used to.
Parker got sick and injured? Wtf was Manure's excuse when he fouled Dirk, turned it over 8 times, got shitted on by Austin Rivers, etc? :lmao

Parker is the 3rd best player in franchise history behind Duncan and Robinson. Manure is #6 behind those three and Gervin + Kawhi.

[Diego20]

I guess defense doesn't matter to porker fans.


:cry but but TP has better %FG , and he won FMVP against a D-leaguer :cry

[SASdynasty!]

TP made only 11,9 points per game last season (33 years old) damn god I don't want to imagine next season, probably will average like 9 points per game.
Spurstalk: "Tony needs to shoot less!"
Spurstalk: "Why can't Tony score more?!"

[Joseph Kony]

Pure scoring? Parker. In his prime when he had his speed he was an excellent scorer and never missed around the basket.

But if we mean pure offensive impact, than it's Manu easily. He impacted the offensive side of the ball for more than just scoring. The team transformed when prime Manu was on the court. He made scrub big men look good.

[apalisoc_9]

Spurstalk: "Tony needs to shoot less!"
Spurstalk: "Why can't Tony score more?!"

Stfu tony

[TheGreatYacht]

:cry but but TP has better %FG , and he won FMVP against a D-leaguer :cry
Manure never shut anyone down, let's not kid ourselves.

:cry but he won a gold medal against a terrible USA team :cry

[SASdynasty!]

:cry but but TP has better %FG , and he won FMVP against a D-leaguer :cry
Tony would have won his FMVP over the Pistons. Only they couldn't get past Gibson in the ECF.

[Diego20]

Spurstalk: "Tony needs to shoot less!"
Spurstalk: "Why can't Tony score more?!"

??

Nobody wants TP to score more tbh, we all want less drible drible drible drible drible, D and more assists. You TP tards only care about PPG.

[TheGreatYacht]

Manure fans talking shit about Boobie Gibson when their boy made a career playing against backup scrubs :lol

[Joseph Kony]

Also anyone trying to shit on Parker for the 2007 FMVP by arguing that Boobie was trash needs to think about the rest of the fucking Cavs roster :lol because its not like Timmy had a defensive stalwart guarding him. Can't put an * next to his FMVP without putting one next to the 2007 title imo

[SASdynasty!]

Pure scoring? Parker. In his prime when he had his speed he was an excellent scorer and never missed around the basket.

But if we mean pure offensive impact, than it's Manu easily. He impacted the offensive side of the ball for more than just scoring. The team transformed when prime Manu was on the court. He made scrub big men look good.
Manu was a flashier passer, which is why his assist numbers were never that good and his turnovers were so high.

[Joseph Kony]

Manu was a flashier passer, which is why his assist numbers were never that good and his turnovers were so high.

That could also be because he's a SG and not the primary ball handler (Parker)



I know it's hard to believe but Spurfans can appreciate both of their games without shitting on the other tbh...

[Diego20]

Manure fans talking shit about Boobie Gibson when their boy made a career playing against backup scrubs :lol

But he also had to play with Spurs second unit, which means they weren't as good as ours starters? lol TP tard.

Is easier to play with TD, Kawhi and TP or easier to play with Deblair, Cojo, bonner? :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

But he also had to play with Spurs second unit, which means they weren't as good as ours starters? lol TP tard.
Played with lesser players and still had worse stats :lmao

Lmao Manuretard

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Good argument...lots of facts and research. Lots of good points made.

I'm citing the commonest of NBA knowledge here. I'll get you on the right track by pointing out that 3 points is worth more than 2 points and that at the free throw line shooting percentages are generally very high.

If you understand those basic things and manage to draw some conclusions within this player comparison context then we can get to Manu's superior advanced stats across the board.

[Diego20]

Played with lesser players and still had worse stats :lmao

Lmao Manuretard

Like Manu in 2007-2008 right? Came off the bench and stilll put 19.5 points per game.

lmao TP tard

[Mikeanaro]

Better than Manu turning it over 8 times. Oh wait, that turned out NOT to be garbage time.
You are talking about game 6, but what did Porker in game 7? shooting 6/92 perhaps?

[mbass]

MANU

[TheGreatYacht]

You are talking about game 6, but what did Porker in game 7? shooting 6/92 perhaps?
No need for a game 7 had 8 turnovers never happened, tbh.

Also no finals w/o MVParker :lol

[elemento]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6KeyQmP-raQ/U2rqStd7RLI/AAAAAAAAFWQ/i0CpPFQAIkI/s1600/Michael+Jackson+4.gif

[SASdynasty!]

I'm citing the commonest of NBA knowledge here. I'll get you on the right track by pointing out that 3 points is worth more than 2 points and that at the free throw line shooting percentages are generally very high.

If you understand those basic things and manage to draw some conclusions within this player comparison context then we can get to Manu's superior advanced stats across the board.
Oh I guarantee we can find some advanced stats from the endless supply of formulas. You've got dozens (if not hundreds) to choose from. My argument was more based on the fact that Parker scores more points, has more assists, and shoots better from the field than Manu. If you want to start looking at free throw percentages and the fact that Manu played against second units most of his career, be my guest. I bet his BPM is great against those scrubs.

[Mikeanaro]

No need for a game 7 had 8 turnovers never happened, tbh.

Also no finals w/o MVParker :lol
Lol no need, well Porker ruined game 6 too what are you talking about?
Dont try to make a fake legend like Maradona, MVPorker sucked ass.

Where is that fact? MVPorker is a padstating POS, lets talk about his dominance vs OKC in 2012...

[SASdynasty!]

Like Manu in 2007-2008 right? Came off the bench and stilll put 19.5 points per game.

lmao TP tard
On 46% too, one of Manu's better shooting seasons.

[Diego20]

Also forgot to mention, yeah TP averages more points per game than Manu but he also let enemy's PG score more too, because his D sucks :lol

TP score 18 points but the other team's PG score 99999 :lol

[SASdynasty!]

Lol no need, well Porker ruined game 6 too what are you talking about?
Dont try to make a fake legend like Maradona, MVPorker sucked ass.

Where is that fact? MVPorker is a padstating POS, lets talk about his dominance vs OKC in 2012...
You mean when Parker put up 29/12 in Game 6 and Manu put up 10/1? Are you blaming Parker for trying to send the series to 7?

The series where Parker outplayed Westbrook but didn't have any help?

[ducks]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 14.0/4.0/3.7 on 45% shooting
Parker: 16.6/5.9/2.9 on 49% shooting

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 14.7/3.9/4.2 on 43% shooting
Parker: 18.2/5.2/3.0 on 46% shooting

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

.



tp easily
also tp finals mvp

[TheGreatYacht]

Lol no need, well Porker ruined game 6 too what are you talking about?
Dont try to make a fake legend like Maradona, MVPorker sucked ass.

Where is that fact? MVPorker is a padstating POS, lets talk about his dominance vs OKC in 2012...
Parker put us up 5 with 30 seconds remaining, what the fuck are you talking about? :lol Don't try semen shield that POS Argie like you do with Missi

2012 against OKC? Sure thing bro let's compare http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-western-conference-finals-thunder-vs-spurs.html

MVParker - 21.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 6.3apg, 48.1FG%
Manure - 18.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 3.3apg, 50FG%

Advantage Parker

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Oh I guarantee we can find some advanced stats from the endless supply of formulas. You've got dozens (if not hundreds) to choose from. My argument was more based on the fact that Parker scores more points, has more assists, and shoots better from the field than Manu. If you want to start looking at free throw percentages and the fact that Manu played against second units most of his career, be my guest. I bet his BPM is great against those scrubs.

You're still coming up short on the 3>2 fact and free-throws, hence why you think Tony has shot better or more efficient.

Manu has always had an elite true shooting percentage.

[itzsoweezee]

I'm almost certain Manu has the better advanced stats, especially if you're comparing on a per minutes basis.

[SuperCam]

head of the snake 1 fmvp

maure 0

[TheGreatYacht]

You're still coming up short on the 3>2 fact and free-throws, hence why you you think Tony has shot better or more efficient.

Manu has always had an elite true shooting percentage.
TS% :lmao

:cry but Manure can hit free throws better :cry

[TheGreatYacht]

I'm almost certain Manu has the better advanced stats, especially if you're comparing on a per minutes basis.
Boban puts up Shaq numbers on a per minute basis. Not really a good measure tool since the player with less minutes always has an advantage

[TheGreatYacht]

head of the snake 1 fmvp

maure 0
One of the most knowledgable posters on the forum preaching, per par

[SASdynasty!]

TS% :lmao

:cry but Manure can hit free throws better :cry
Except for certain moments, of course. But yes, overall Manu was a better free throw shooter. Woohoo! TS%!!

[SASdynasty!]

Boban puts up Shaq numbers on a per minute basis. Not really a good measure tool since the player with less minutes always has an advantage
Off the chart advanced stats. Has nothing to do with playing less minutes against scrubs.

[TheGreatYacht]

Except for certain moments, of course. But yes, overall Manu was a better free throw shooter. Woohoo! TS%!!
Manure's FT% drops to 50% when the pressure is on. It's known to happen tbh

[Mouth is Bleeding]

I'm almost certain Manu has the better advanced stats, especially if you're comparing on a per minutes basis.

Of course. Almost any stat worth anything is Manu>>>Parker.

I can't believe everyone doesn't know that. I guess the many trolls here and all their noise just drown any remotely worthwhile discussion.

Even something like the turnover percentages are very close (14.9 vs 13.8), and it's really only among the most ignorant here that people think of Manu as turnover prone, he isn't if you care to actually look deeper, and I think if we really dig deep and analyse the value of different type assists to relative open 3s or layups over long 2s (from Timmy for an example) Manu will do very well compared to anyone, including of course Parker.

[ducks]

I'm almost certain Manu has the better advanced stats, especially if you're comparing on a per minutes basis.

prove it

[Mouth is Bleeding]

prove it

Jesus christ dude stop being a lazy biased bum and look it up at basketball reference. It's all there.

[SASdynasty!]

Parker's first playoff game (vs Gary Payton): 21 pts on 75% shooting.
Ginobili's first playoff game (vs Joe Johnson): 11 pts on 22% shooting.

[SASdynasty!]

Jesus christ dude stop being a lazy biased bum and look it up at basketball reference. It's all there.
You're the one making the claim. Burden of proof yo.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

No what's comical is inability to understand 3>2 or simply making this kind of stupidity a main trolling focus.

Waste of time.

[TheGreatYacht]

Parker's first playoff game (vs Gary Payton): 21 pts on 75% shooting.
Ginobili's first playoff game (vs Joe Johnson): 11 pts on 22% shooting.
I'm sure that 22% is misleading. Can you put their TS% up?

[Mouth is Bleeding]

You're the one making the claim. Burden of proof yo.

here start cherry picking and continue stupid trolling

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html

or get smarter, learn what stats are worth anything, look at them, mainly under "advanced" use your ability to see things and hopefully realise, if your brain is working, that virtually all Manu's numbers are better than Tony's.

[SASdynasty!]

All-Star:

Parker: 6x
Ginobili: 2x

All-NBA:

Parker: 4x
Ginobili: 2x

[cd98]

Manure's FT% drops to 50% when the pressure is on. It's known to happen tbh

Sadly there is some truth to this the last few years, but in his prime, he was the best closer in basketball. He lead the NBA in field goal percentage in the clutch, he never missed free throws, and he made great decisions with the ball. Age has robbed him of that, but for years he got the job done at an elite level.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

I'm sure that 22% is misleading. Can you put their TS% up?

3>2 is only misleading if you're retard

Shooting 82 pct on three throws 8.4 times per 100 possessions>49 pct from the field on 22 fg attempts where 19 are 2s, well I guess you'll have to think about that one... It's better use of your time than trolling probably, so go ahead.

[cd98]

All-Star:

Parker: 6x
Ginobili: 2x

All-NBA:

Parker: 4x
Ginobili: 2x

Those are media votes. They both should've had more individual awards and fans regularly get the all star voting wrong. Both are great Spurs and the best Spurs of all time at their positions.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Those are media votes. They both should've had more individual awards and fans regularly get the all star voting wrong. Both are great Spurs and the best Spurs of all time at their positions.

yes he is just trolling now I'm guessing. It is what it is.

[diego]

They were both elite drivers, but manu's size and ability to draw fouls made him better- there's a reason so many teams were able to shut Tony down by packing the paint / using a longer defender on him. Still have to admire Tony's exceptional speed and skill finishing in the paint despite his size disadvantage. Manu was elite at drawing fouls, something the team is sorely lacking now.
Manu obviously has better range, and Tony eventually became a very good passer too.
Re: playing with/against 2nd units, it has pros and cons but manu used to close against starters regularly and he was pretty damn good at it. When manu started his stats went up and I'm pretty sure when Tony came off the bench his stats went down, can't be bothered to look up the numbers now.

For me, offensively the difference is that Tony was more dependent on matchups, while manu was more dependent on health due to his reckless style. assuming both are healthy playing vs a strong playoff team, I'll take manu.

[barbacoataco]

All-Star:

Parker: 6x
Ginobili: 2x

All-NBA:

Parker: 4x
Ginobili: 2x

Ginobili was better in terms of peak value, but Parker has been more durable and consistent. Ginobili in 2005 was a beast.

[cd98]

I love the debate, but the two aren't really comparable as they played different positions and roles such that their comparisons are apples to oranges. Plus both had peak years at different times and the Spurs system changed to meet their peaks and lows.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Pop on Manu:

KFU-wXsRhic

Pop on Parker:

http://i.imgbox.com/hHooCE9u.gif

[Diego20]

All-Star:

Parker: 6x
Ginobili: 2x

All-NBA:

Parker: 4x
Ginobili: 2x

How many players in the NBA history made the all star 2 times while averaging only 26 minutes in his entire career? Also those players had to came off the bench in more than half of their careers..

[apalisoc_9]

Pop on Manu:

KFU-wXsRhic

Pop on Parker:

http://i.imgbox.com/hHooCE9u.gif

:lol

[SASdynasty!]

Those are media votes. They both should've had more individual awards and fans regularly get the all star voting wrong. Both are great Spurs and the best Spurs of all time at their positions.
The coaches vote on the second team all-stars man...do you guys seriously not know this?

[SASdynasty!]

Ginobili was better in terms of peak value, but Parker has been more durable and consistent. Ginobili in 2005 was a beast.
Lol, so now a 22/6 playoff series is a better peak than 30/7? Hahaha...Parker routinely put up Manu's peak numbers throughout his career.

[SASdynasty!]

They were both elite drivers, but manu's size and ability to draw fouls made him better- there's a reason so many teams were able to shut Tony down by packing the paint / using a longer defender on him. Still have to admire Tony's exceptional speed and skill finishing in the paint despite his size disadvantage. Manu was elite at drawing fouls, something the team is sorely lacking now.
Manu obviously has better range, and Tony eventually became a very good passer too.
Re: playing with/against 2nd units, it has pros and cons but manu used to close against starters regularly and he was pretty damn good at it. When manu started his stats went up and I'm pretty sure when Tony came off the bench his stats went down, can't be bothered to look up the numbers now.

For me, offensively the difference is that Tony was more dependent on matchups, while manu was more dependent on health due to his reckless style. assuming both are healthy playing vs a strong playoff team, I'll take manu.
Hahaha Manu got shut down WAY more than Parker. See stats in post above.

[barbacoataco]

In one more season as a Spur Parker has over 34,000 total minutes versus about 24,000 for Ginobili. So Parker has to get some credit for just being on the court more. Or maybe you could say Ginoboli gets credit for putting up the numbers he has in relatively few minutes.

After watching countless Spurs games I can say the I saw Ginobili take over a game with a series if inspired plays more often than Parker. On the other hand Manu made a lot of terrible plays at crucial moments, including the 2006 loss to Dallas that was mainly on him.

[barbacoataco]

Lol, so now a 22/6 playoff series is a better peak than 30/7? Hahaha...Parker routinely put up Manu's peak numbers throughout his career.

Manu's peak in 2005 was a against a Detroit team that was one of the best defensive teams ever. Parker's Final MVP in 2007 was against a backup PG on a mediocre team.

[Canyonero]

I don't understand Parker fanboys hate for Manu.

[BillMc]

Once again OP with his less-than-subtle attempt at flaming divisiveness among Spurs fans. Nearly every thread he makes is meant to pit one faction against another.

Boring. A complete troll.

[itsamanuthree]

all i know is if i need one guy to score a bunch in garbage time, i'm giving the ball to Parker and not looking back.
:rollin

[Mouth is Bleeding]

I don't understand Parker fanboys hate for Manu.

Most are just doing their never-ever-ending trolling but if you want to give back you can delve into them exemplifying the petty selfish mindset of Tony Parker vs the exemplary self-sacrificing wonderful human being and teammate Manu Ginobili.

[SASdynasty!]

Manu's peak in 2005 was a against a Detroit team that was one of the best defensive teams ever. Parker's Final MVP in 2007 was against a backup PG on a mediocre team.
Who happened to beat the team you're talking about.

[SASdynasty!]

Most are just doing their never-ever-ending trolling but if you want to give back you can delve into them exemplifying the petty selfish mindset of Tony Parker vs the exemplary self-sacrificing wonderful human being and teammate Manu Ginobili.
That seems fair and unbiased.

[spurraider21]

Can't speak too much about Prime Manu, but Prime Parker may be the only PG around which a team could build a post-centric offense. The stuff he used to be able to do with the ball would push the hopes people are having for Leonard and LMA on that end to shame. Manu would easily be the best two-guard in the game right now, while I'm not sure that Prime Tony would be ahead of Curry or even CP3. So that's something else to consider.
eh, prime TP circa 2012 would routinely outdo cp3

[beirmeistr]

if the metric is dribbles per possession, no contest

[Diego20]

if the metric is dribbles per possession, no contest

:lol

[cutewizard]

Who cares?right how neither is very good


--------------------------------------------

hahahahaha

[Seventyniner]

Ginobili was better in terms of peak value, but Parker has been more durable and consistent. Ginobili in 2005 was a beast.

Best answer so far imo. For one game or one series to win it all, take Manu. But if you have to get through a full season and playoffs, take Tony.

[cutewizard]

The answer to Sir Apalisoc's original question, is probably, objectively speaking, Parker....

However, if we are talking about intangibles, in one game, it could be Manu....

example, the Olympic games and the World Championships:

the step-ladder sequences are one-game affairs, here Manu shines the brightest!

---------------------------------------------

At their peak, in any given game, Manu's ability to wield Chaos against Order has to be supreme.

In this respect, using metaphorical language, Tony is the expert wizard, super-talented, a star in the Wizard Academy.

BUT MANU IS THE PROFESSOR OF WIZARDS! the Wizard who can control Chaos itself.

So...................................MANUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cutewizard]

Here is the best answer:

If you have a hot gf, the more dangerous player is obviously, Tony the Frenchman! lol

[Chinook]

eh, prime TP circa 2012 would routinely outdo cp3

I think Paul's a better player now than he was before.

[beirmeistr]

Best answer so far imo. For one game or one series to win it all, take Manu. But if you have to get through a full season and playoffs, take Tony.
good answer

[Mikeanaro]

You mean when Parker put up 29/12 in Game 6 and Manu put up 10/1? Are you blaming Parker for trying to send the series to 7?

The series where Parker outplayed Westbrook but didn't have any help?
Lol you have everything wrong, he scored 29 points on 27 fucking shots,are you for real???? thats enough to kill your teammates and the game get your facts straight.
That same game Westchimp had 25 points on 17 shots, thats 10 less attemps, Parker never ever in any way outplayed Westchimp during that series, thats a fairy tale for kids.

Porker scored 12 on 15 shots during game 4 while a 35 year old Manu scored 34 points on game 5, I dont wanna think about 35 y/o Porker season in 2017/18.

[Mikeanaro]

Parker put us up 5 with 30 seconds remaining, what the fuck are you talking about? :lol Don't try semen shield that POS Argie like you do with Missi

2012 against OKC? Sure thing bro let's compare http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-western-conference-finals-thunder-vs-spurs.html

MVParker - 21.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 6.3apg, 48.1FG%
Manure - 18.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 3.3apg, 50FG%

Advantage Parker
Put us 5 with 30? yeah but fucked us all the game, if he played good we would be leading by 15 with 30 seconds sure by shooting 6/23 did us a big favor right?

That trolling and agenda you have on Manu is so ridiculous, they have almost the same stats but have occurred to you that Manu played a lot less minutes so his stats cant be bigger that TPork?
And lets not forget Manu can dunk shoot pass nutmeg handle 3´s court vision help his teams and NT to win much much better than some selfish french that made us taste shit lots of times including last season vs the Clips with an injured CP3?

Even Pop said without Manu Spurs would be light 1 or 2 championships, never said that about the Pork.

[TheGreatYacht]

Put us 5 with 30? yeah but fucked us all the game, if he played good we would be leading by 5 with 30 seconds sure by shooting 6/23 did us a big favor right?

That trolling and agenda you have on Manu is so ridiculous, they have almost the same stats but have occurred to you that Manu played a lot less minutes so his stats cant be bigger that TPork?
And lets not forget Manu can dunk shoot pass nutmeg handle 3´s court vision help his teams and NT to win much much better than some selfish french that made us taste shit lots of times including last season vs the Clips with an injured CP3?

Even Pop said without Manu Spurs would be light 1 or 2 championships, never said that about the Pork.
Yeah and without Manure's 8 turnovers we wouldn't have only been up by 5. Could've should've would've. Parker put us up 5 and Manure CHOKED.

They don't have the same fucking stats what are you talking about? :lol Parker's blow Manure's out of the water. Wake up lmao. SASDynasty posted their stats. Manure's best season is the norm for Parker.

• Oh he can dunk? Well that settles it :lmao
• He can shoot better? Apparently not since Parker is more efficient
• He can pass better? No he fucking can't. Parker Per-36 averages 6.6ast & 2.7TO while Manure averages 5.4ast & 2.8TO
• He can nutmeg? Really? Pssssshhhh :lmao

[james evans]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.



Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting


Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

.
That best individual playoff run was a first round exit to dallas and he couldn't stay in front of Barerra that series to save his life. Best individual sereis was against Phoeniex and that' not much of a rivalry since they've only beat us once in the Duncan era with him actually playing..Yeah parker could score in his prime. it's about all he could do really. But once that quickness left, Duncan/ginobli got older, he became borderline worthless

[Mikeanaro]

Yeah and without Manure's 8 turnovers we wouldn't have only been up by 5. Could've should've would've. Parker put us up 5 and Manure CHOKED.

They don't have the same fucking stats what are you talking about? :lol Parker's blow Manure's out of the water. Wake up lmao. SASDynasty posted their stats. Manure's best season is the norm for Parker.

• Oh he can dunk? Well that settles it :lmao
• He can shoot better? Apparently not since Parker is more efficient
• He can pass better? No he's fucking not. Parker Per-36 averages 6.6ast & 2.7TO while Manure averages 5.4ast & 2.8TO
• He can nutmeg? Really? Pssssshhhh :lmao

You are a troll, you have no life or shit at all except this dumb account.
SAS is another retard that counts AllStar games and dumb media shit that doesnt say a thing about the game.

Can Parker dunk? shoots better? how so? he learned to shoot the 3 at age 33, doesnt nutmeg because his stupid mind is slow and his body lacks coordination to do that.
Can he pass better? when? when he deflates the ball for 21 seconds and makes a stupid pass trying to get an assist?

Porker game is so stupid... dribble dribble dribble and a floater.

At the end who cares you have your job here and gotta keep feeding the monkey.

Lol Porker put us 5 by shooting 6/23 thats a nice thing to say, you see it doesnt matter how bad you play all the game, if you scored a bucket during crunch time you were a GOAT and nobody will ever say you should play good during THE WHOLE GAME specially when you lose, nice concepts... for a movie for retards.

Feed the monkey.

[Diego20]

Yeah and without Manure's 8 turnovers we wouldn't have only been up by 5. Could've should've would've. Parker put us up 5 and Manure CHOKED.

They don't have the same fucking stats what are you talking about? :lol Parker's blow Manure's out of the water. Wake up lmao. SASDynasty posted their stats. Manure's best season is the norm for Parker.

• Oh he can dunk? Well that settles it :lmao
• He can shoot better? Apparently not since Parker is more efficient
• He can pass better? No he's fucking not. Parker Per-36 averages 6.6ast & 2.7TO while Manure averages 5.4ast & 2.8TO
• He can nutmeg? Really? Pssssshhhh :lmao

TP played against Mario fucking chalmers, one of worst PGs on the NBA and still choked last 2 games:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Its a shame how Parker cherry picked the Finals MVP from TD in 07' exploiting his matchup vs. a D-Leaguer and stat padding. It's a shame how people think Parker was the best player that run just because he got Finals MVP. Duncan was by far the best player and was the MVP of the Suns series (which was essentially the Finals that year).

Still bugs me he got it that year. Should have been TD.

I didn't mind Porker willing the MVP, tbh. He played the cards he was dealt but that being his crowing achievement is a laughable.:lol

2005 Manu would have averaged 35 if he was being guarded by Snow/Boobie Gibson.:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

TP played against Mario fucking chalmers, one of worst PGs on the NBA and still choked last 2 games:lol
Too bad he was being guarded by Lebron, Manuretard :lmao

Your boy got torn the fuck up by a shoeless Mike Miller lmao

[Mnky]

Prime Manu all day. People are forgetting manu has been over 30 For awhile. He's been pretty bad last few years in comparison. Prime manu was a force. You don't hear too many people talking about Parker's game like they do gino.

[Kawhitstorm]

Parker's first playoff game (vs Gary Payton): 21 pts on 75% shooting.
Ginobili's first playoff game (vs Joe Johnson): 11 pts on 22% shooting.

Manu had a badly sprained ankle as a rookie which caused him to miss valuable time & Pop still had him on a leash like Tiago.

Besides, Payton at his PEAK got abused by Van Exel.:lol

95Ozj3uZwgQ

[TheGreatYacht]

You don't hear too many people talking about Parker's game like they do gino.
That's because this is Spurstalk :lol

When do you ever see positive Parker threads?

[Diego20]

Too bad he was being guarded by Lebron, Manuretard :lmao

Your boy got torn the fuck up by a shoeless Mike Miller lmao

Lebron occasionally guarded TP, lol TP tard. I even remember Lebron guarding Manu.

[Kawhitstorm]

I'd take Harden, Thompson, Butler, etc.... Shit I'd even take Jamal Crawford in his prime over Manu, has more individual accomplishments tbh

Manu has more postseason win-share than all those bums combined.:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

Too bad he was being guarded by Lebron, Manuretard :lmao

Rondo used to tear LeBron & the Heat another one::lol

N90C-mdaVzQ

QfnSuVCoazo

[ElNono]

Prime Manu, leading ARG to that olympic gold medal over Pop, Tim and a stacked Team USA, then coming back and beasting in 2005 to get us #3... damn, the dude was dominant then, and he got it done with different teams, in the biggest stages...

[Mikeanaro]

Thats it, this is the season where a 34 y/o TP will break his arm the game before the playoffs to attempt a mid court shot like Manu did vs the Grizzlies at the same age.

[ElNono]

Tony's prime was good, tbh... nothing to be ashamed of there. It took Kawhi and an rejuvenated Manu to get us over the hump for #5, but he contributed, tbh...

[beirmeistr]

Prime Manu, leading ARG to that olympic gold medal over Pop, Tim and a stacked Team USA, then coming back and beasting in 2005 to get us #3... damn, the dude was dominant then, and he got it done with different teams, in the biggest stages...
I know dat's right!

[Yuixafun]

I'm not sure what show exactly, maybe Quantum Leap... but the main character travels thru time to different scenarios.

He has to keep replaying the events until he sets it right... then he is able to leap again, into an entirely new circumstance, on his quest to journey to his own time.

During one episode, there is a hotshot new boxer that is tearing threw the ranks, but he alerts the suspicion of a special forces unit.

They think he is bending time... it's not that the boxer was so talented, it was that he was 2 seconds ahead of everyone he fought.

Now I said all that to say this.

One night I was mesmerized watching a long haired Manu, maybe during one of his 40+ point explosion games, when that show popped into my head.


I was seeing a player that was 2 seconds ahead of everyone else.

[kaji157]

You mean when Manu was 27 and Parker was 22? Or is that one of the only series that you can find where Ginobili outplayed Parker? How about 2003? How about 2007? How about 2013? How about 2014? Oh, those aren't good measures. Only 2005.

Prime Ginobili was a far more complete player, that is undeniable.
The fact that he played less minutes, and didn´t focused on get the "score" or "the assist" may resemble less his contributions. But parker never demanded double teams while Manu did. Parker was never able to do something special when teams game planned for him.

There is also something about your stats, you fail to compare each player in regular season/playoffs. It is a reality for all fans who have been here that historically Tony has had trouble sustaining his performance during the playoffs, while manu usually would surpass himself.

Also there is the matter of "oportunity" while Tony failed against the pistons and Manu failed against the Heat, Tony was lucky that manu and tim were able to hide that failure with a win. If not, tony would have probably been traded. When manu failed, no one ever bailed him out, neither in 2006 nor 2013, Parker was non existant in the final game. Tony on the other hand failed many times and was bailed by teammates, or excuses (like Manu injury in 2011). But the Parker show against Conley was a statment on hos undependable parker was in his prime.

Maybe, because fate is a bitch, that is the reason while the best series tony had, against Miami in the 2013 finals, is the series the spurs couldnt win, but that is also an statement that when the team depended on Manu and Tim, they both could spare Tony, but when Tony had to spare manu, he couldnt, and failed, in his best Finals Series.

It´s really a discussion with no means, i believe Ginobili was more influential for a team than Parker, and around the legue i think that is the consensus, but this is a forum and is for posting opinions.

[Yuixafun]

The answer to Sir Apalisoc's original question, is probably, objectively speaking, Parker....

However, if we are talking about intangibles, in one game, it could be Manu....

example, the Olympic games and the World Championships:

the step-ladder sequences are one-game affairs, here Manu shines the brightest!

---------------------------------------------

At their peak, in any given game, Manu's ability to wield Chaos against Order has to be supreme.

In this respect, using metaphorical language, Tony is the expert wizard, super-talented, a star in the Wizard Academy.

BUT MANU IS THE PROFESSOR OF WIZARDS! the Wizard who can control Chaos itself.

So...................................MANUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Tip of the hat to you)

That's an awesome way to put it lol... to wield chaos against order.

It reminds me of why Paquaio was so dangerous when he only knew how to throw his left hand and flurry.

He was like a wild beast fighting.

The more he became skilled and domesticated.. he lost that edge, where he would throw and attack from angles you aren't supposed to.

[Mnky]

That's because this is Spurstalk :lol

When do you ever see positive Parker threads?

I meant NBA players. I'd never use spurtalk as a reference point of good opinion. :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

I meant NBA players. I'd never use spurtalk as a reference point of good opinion. :lol
OH okay nvm :lol

[JR3]

Manu always had a three point shot and dunked over Yao Ming and Chris Bosh...

[EIC]

I really hope you're talking about the first Isaiah Thomas. Or maybe you would take a journeyman whose (1) never once shot above 45% from the field. Oh, also he's never shot 40% from the field in the playoffs or (2) won a playoff series. Seems about right for Spurstalk.

I'll admit that Thomas was a bit of a reach. That said, I'm not sure Westbrook has shot much better than Thomas and you'd be a fool to deny that Westbrook is a superior player to prime Parker. Regarding the second boldfaced point, can you name another player on the Celtics other than Thomas without Googling? I didn't think so. Prime Parker was surrounded by talent that Thomas can't even dream about.

[SpursBig3s]

Manu

[ElNono]

Some Per 36 stats, didn't see many stats posted...

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 19.2/5.4/5.0 - 59% TS, 20.9 PER, 101.2 WS, 45.5 VORP
Parker: 18.6/6.6/3.2 - 55% TS, 18.7 PER, 105.9 WS, 27.5 VORP

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 18.4/4.9/5.2 - 58% TS, 19.7 PER, 20.1 WS, 10.6 VORP
Parker: 18.7/5.4/3.1 - 51% TS, 16.8 PER, 13.2 WS, 3.7 VORP

Best individual regular season:

Ginobili: 22.6/5.2/4.6 - 61% TS, 24.3 PER, 11.1 WS, 5.9 VORP
Parker: 22.2/8.3/3.3 - 59% TS, 23 PER, 9.3 WS, 2.6 VORP

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 22.3/4.5/6.2 - 65% TS, 24.8 PER, 4.2 WS, 2.1 VORP
Parker: 20.3/6.9/3.2 - 52% TS, 21.5 PER, 2.4 WS, 0.9 VORP

--------------

Some of the career numbers probably took a hit for Gino due to the last few years, but still... :wow

We're lucky to have had and still have both of these guys, tbh. They probably compare very well against other players at their position.

[eric365]

Peak Manu (2005) played with a Prime Tim Duncan.

Peak Tony (2013) played with great 2 way players but the offense was completely built around him and he took them to 30 sec of winning the championship
He destroyed Memphis in WCF that had 3 All NBA defensive including the DPOY with an offense completely buit around him

[EIC]

Some Per 36 stats, didn't see many stats posted...

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 19.2/5.4/5.0 - 59% TS, 20.9 PER, 101.2 WS, 45.5 VORP
Parker: 18.6/6.6/3.2 - 55% TS, 18.7 PER, 105.9 WS, 27.5 VORP

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 18.4/4.9/5.2 - 58% TS, 19.7 PER, 20.1 WS, 10.6 VORP
Parker: 18.7/5.4/3.1 - 51% TS, 16.8 PER, 13.2 WS, 3.7 VORP

Best individual regular season:

Ginobili: 22.6/5.2/4.6 - 61% TS, 24.3 PER, 11.1 WS, 5.9 VORP
Parker: 22.2/8.3/3.3 - 59% TS, 23 PER, 9.3 WS, 2.6 VORP

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 22.3/4.5/6.2 - 65% TS, 24.8 PER, 4.2 WS, 2.1 VORP
Parker: 20.3/6.9/3.2 - 52% TS, 21.5 PER, 2.4 WS, 0.9 VORP

--------------

Some of the career numbers probably took a hit for Gino due to the last few years, but still... :wow

We're lucky to have had and still have both of these guys, tbh. They probably compare very well against other players at their position.

Good post. For the lay people among us, can you update your post with a legend for the acronyms ion the advanced stats?

[SASdynasty!]

Lol you have everything wrong, he scored 29 points on 27 fucking shots,are you for real???? thats enough to kill your teammates and the game get your facts straight.
That same game Westchimp had 25 points on 17 shots, thats 10 less attemps, Parker never ever in any way outplayed Westchimp during that series, thats a fairy tale for kids.

Porker scored 12 on 15 shots during game 4 while a 35 year old Manu scored 34 points on game 5, I dont wanna think about 35 y/o Porker season in 2017/18.
Oh Parker in no way outplayed Westbrook in the series?

Parker: 21.5/6.3/3.8 on 48%, 55 TS%, 109 ORT, 15.1 GSC
Westbrook: 18.2/7.3/5.8 on 38%, 45 TS%, 96 ORT, 12.7 GSC

Hahaha wow, what series were you watching?

[SASdynasty!]

I didn't mind Porker willing the MVP, tbh. He played the cards he was dealt but that being his crowing achievement is a laughable.:lol

2005 Manu would have averaged 35 if he was being guarded by Snow/Boobie Gibson.:lol
Manu never averaged more than 22 in a playoff series in his career. But I'm sure he would put up 35, lol.

[SASdynasty!]

Too bad he was being guarded by Lebron, Manuretard :lmao

Your boy got torn the fuck up by a shoeless Mike Miller lmao
Hahaha do these guys even watch the series?

[SASdynasty!]

Lebron occasionally guarded TP, lol TP tard. I even remember Lebron guarding Manu.
Hahahhahahhahahahhaha occasionally?! Who did Parker hit the game-sealing shot in G1 over? Who did he hit the game-tying 3 over in G6? Go watch the series again.

[SASdynasty!]

Tony's prime was good, tbh... nothing to be ashamed of there. It took Kawhi and an rejuvenated Manu to get us over the hump for #5, but he contributed, tbh...
Oh you mean Parker contributed by being the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team? Or he contributed by leading us in scoring throughout the regular season, playoffs, and Finals? Or he contributed by leading us in assists throughout the regular season and Finals?

Lol, Manu led us in NOTHING that year. Kawhi led us in steals, that's it. Wow.

[SASdynasty!]

Prime Ginobili was a far more complete player, that is undeniable.
The fact that he played less minutes, and didn´t focused on get the "score" or "the assist" may resemble less his contributions. But parker never demanded double teams while Manu did. Parker was never able to do something special when teams game planned for him.

There is also something about your stats, you fail to compare each player in regular season/playoffs. It is a reality for all fans who have been here that historically Tony has had trouble sustaining his performance during the playoffs, while manu usually would surpass himself.

Also there is the matter of "oportunity" while Tony failed against the pistons and Manu failed against the Heat, Tony was lucky that manu and tim were able to hide that failure with a win. If not, tony would have probably been traded. When manu failed, no one ever bailed him out, neither in 2006 nor 2013, Parker was non existant in the final game. Tony on the other hand failed many times and was bailed by teammates, or excuses (like Manu injury in 2011). But the Parker show against Conley was a statment on hos undependable parker was in his prime.

Maybe, because fate is a bitch, that is the reason while the best series tony had, against Miami in the 2013 finals, is the series the spurs couldnt win, but that is also an statement that when the team depended on Manu and Tim, they both could spare Tony, but when Tony had to spare manu, he couldnt, and failed, in his best Finals Series.

It´s really a discussion with no means, i believe Ginobili was more influential for a team than Parker, and around the legue i think that is the consensus, but this is a forum and is for posting opinions.
Hahaha are you serious:

Manu Ginobili:

Regular Season: 14.0/4.0 on 45%
Playoffs: 14.7/3.9 on 43%

Tony Parker:

Regular Season: 16.6/5.9 on 49%
Playoffs: 18.2/5.2 on 46%

Yah, Manu does so much better in the playoffs. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Oh, and Parker's best series was not against Miami bro. Phoenix 2008 (R1), Memphis 2013 (WCF), Cleveland 2007 (Finals) were all MUCH better series from Parker, all series the Spurs won BTW.

[SASdynasty!]

I'll admit that Thomas was a bit of a reach. That said, I'm not sure Westbrook has shot much better than Thomas and you'd be a fool to deny that Westbrook is a superior player to prime Parker. Regarding the second boldfaced point, can you name another player on the Celtics other than Thomas without Googling? I didn't think so. Prime Parker was surrounded by talent that Thomas can't even dream about.
I would take prime Parker all day over any version of Westbrook precisely because: (1) Westbrook is consistently one of the worst shooters in the league who shoots his team out of games and (2) who consistently chokes at the end of big games, especially in the playoffs. He literally puts Manu to shame with how bad his decisions are at the end of playoff games.

[SASdynasty!]

Some Per 36 stats, didn't see many stats posted...

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 19.2/5.4/5.0 - 59% TS, 20.9 PER, 101.2 WS, 45.5 VORP
Parker: 18.6/6.6/3.2 - 55% TS, 18.7 PER, 105.9 WS, 27.5 VORP

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 18.4/4.9/5.2 - 58% TS, 19.7 PER, 20.1 WS, 10.6 VORP
Parker: 18.7/5.4/3.1 - 51% TS, 16.8 PER, 13.2 WS, 3.7 VORP

Best individual regular season:

Ginobili: 22.6/5.2/4.6 - 61% TS, 24.3 PER, 11.1 WS, 5.9 VORP
Parker: 22.2/8.3/3.3 - 59% TS, 23 PER, 9.3 WS, 2.6 VORP

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 22.3/4.5/6.2 - 65% TS, 24.8 PER, 4.2 WS, 2.1 VORP
Parker: 20.3/6.9/3.2 - 52% TS, 21.5 PER, 2.4 WS, 0.9 VORP

--------------

Some of the career numbers probably took a hit for Gino due to the last few years, but still... :wow

We're lucky to have had and still have both of these guys, tbh. They probably compare very well against other players at their position.
Hahahaha what a liar. Parker's best playoff run was that one? How about this one?

28.4/6.8/4.2 - 59% TS, 29.3 PER

And why not put USG%? Because Parker's during that run was 39.1 while Manu's was 26.3? Not an advanced stat that you want to see? I can start giving you some off the charts advanced stats for backup players like Manu that didn't have high usage percentages.

Oh and I love the VORP stat. Is that the one that values Clyde Drexler over Shaq, Kobe, & Dirk?

Also, win shares. Good one considering Bob Feerick, Neil Johnston, and Alex Groza all had more win shares than Steph Curry in his 73-win season. Seems reliable.

[r0drig0lac]

Manu and is not even close imo

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Regular season
Manu : TS% .573, OWS 57.8, WS/48 .200, OBPM 4.1, VORP 45.5, ORTG 113
Tony : TS% .550, OWS 63.5, WS/48 .147, OBPM 1.9, VORP 27.5, ORTG 109

Playoffs
Manu : TS% .580, OWS 11.9, WS/48 .169, OBPM 4.0, VORP 10.6, ORTG 112
Tony : TS% .514, OWS 6.9, WS/48 .084, OBPM 0.8, VORP 3.7, ORTG 103

Peaks
Regular season
Manu : TS% .612, OWS 6.6, WS/48 .246, OBPM 6.1, VORP 5.9, ORTG 118
Tony : TS% .588, OWS 7.1, WS/48 .206, OBPM 4.1, VORP 3.2, ORTG 116

Playoffs
Manu : TS% .652, OWS 3.0, WS/48 .260, OBPM 7.2, VORP 2.1, ORTG 124
Tony : TS% .549, OWS 1.7, WS/48 .152, OBPM 3.6, VORP 0.9, ORTG 108

*Excluding small sample sizes

[Chinook]

I'm not very inclined to give Manu rate stats when comparing his prime self to other players. He was a star, and if he didn't play as many minutes as other players, that's a slight against him. Tony being more durable and playing so many more minutes (and against starters) is definitely a factor in his favor.

Still looks like Manu is the better player, though.

[Perry Mason]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but I think in 2007 TP was guarded not by Boobie the whole time but that Lebron also defended against him at critical times (perhaps the most critical times?).

If true the Boobie thing is a myth to slander TP.

[timtonymanu]

Obviously Manu. Just compare both and Manu's game has aged much better than Parker's. Not even going to credit SASdynasty! and those flawed raw stats he loves bringing up when Parker shot an abysmal 9/35 in Games 6 and 7.

[SASdynasty!]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but I think in 2007 TP was guarded not by Boobie the whole time but that Lebron also defended against him at critical times (perhaps the most critical times?).

If true the Boobie thing is a myth to slander TP.
Only people who actually watched the series know Larry Hughes and Lebron were also on Parker (Lebron especially after Parker torched the other two). But even Lebron couldn't guard him.

[SASdynasty!]

Obviously Manu. Just compare both and Manu's game has aged much better than Parker's. Not even going to credit SASdynasty! and those flawed raw stats he loves bringing up when Parker shot an abysmal 9/35 in Games 6 and 7.
Wait are you using a raw stat (FG%) to discredit Parker when you just said you don't give credit to raw stats? Seems pretty consistent.

[MB20]

Tony was better at scoring and turnovers.
Manu was better at everything else

[SASdynasty!]

Regular season
Manu : TS% .573, OWS 57.8, WS/48 .200, OBPM 4.1, VORP 45.5, ORTG 113
Tony : TS% .550, OWS 63.5, WS/48 .147, OBPM 1.9, VORP 27.5, ORTG 109

Playoffs
Manu : TS% .580, OWS 11.9, WS/48 .169, OBPM 4.0, VORP 10.6, ORTG 112
Tony : TS% .514, OWS 6.9, WS/48 .084, OBPM 0.8, VORP 3.7, ORTG 103

Peaks
Regular season
Manu : TS% .612, OWS 6.6, WS/48 .246, OBPM 6.1, VORP 5.9, ORTG 118
Tony : TS% .588, OWS 7.1, WS/48 .206, OBPM 4.1, VORP 3.2, ORTG 116

Playoffs
Manu : TS% .652, OWS 3.0, WS/48 .260, OBPM 7.2, VORP 2.1, ORTG 124
Tony : TS% .549, OWS 1.7, WS/48 .152, OBPM 3.6, VORP 0.9, ORTG 108

*Excluding small sample sizes
Peaks

Regular Season

Manu: TS% .612, WS/48 .246, ORTG 118, PER 24.3
Boban: TS% .662, WS/48 .325, ORTG 130, PER 27.7

Playoffs

Manu: TS% .652, WS/48 .260, ORTG 124, PER 24.8
Boban: TS% .752, WS/48 .336, ORTG 137, PER 25.4

Advanced stats yo!

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Peaks

Regular Season

Manu: TS% .612, WS/48 .246, ORTG 118, PER 24.3
Boban: TS% .662, WS/48 .325, ORTG 130, PER 27.7

Playoffs

Manu: TS% .652, WS/48 .260, ORTG 124, PER 24.8
Boban: TS% .752, WS/48 .336, ORTG 137, PER 25.4

Advanced stats yo!

Sample size, significance criterion and effect magnitute are all factors that determine the statistical power.

[Big Empty]

Manu better in his prime. the 2005 Ginobili was a force in the league.

[kuato]

Manu, Parker fans putting just shooting stats to make Porker looks better...

[Canyonero]

Wow, this dude SASdynasty has to be the biggest Manu hater. Shame on you.

[timtonymanu]

Wait are you using a raw stat (FG%) to discredit Parker when you just said you don't give credit to raw stats? Seems pretty consistent.

Just saying that your raw stats don't mean jack shit when Parker was awful in the final two games of that series. :cry buh buh he hit a 3 and a layup, :cry but he led our PPG guise

[kaji157]

Hahaha are you serious:

Manu Ginobili:

Regular Season: 14.0/4.0 on 45%
Playoffs: 14.7/3.9 on 43%

Tony Parker:

Regular Season: 16.6/5.9 on 49%
Playoffs: 18.2/5.2 on 46%

Yah, Manu does so much better in the playoffs. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Oh, and Parker's best series was not against Miami bro. Phoenix 2008 (R1), Memphis 2013 (WCF), Cleveland 2007 (Finals) were all MUCH better series from Parker, all series the Spurs won BTW.

Man you can put all the stats you like but we remember how sometimes Manu failed and sometimes Tony did, and Manu is considered a better player.
You can go around looking at stats and shit, but at the end of the day, make a poll, ask your friends, you´ll always lose, ask in USA or outside of the States and the opinions will vary, but the consensus will always be that Ginobili was a better more determinant player than Parker.
Not gonna argue with you anymore because this is not a discussion, you can make your case all you want, but you cannot control/influence people minds, so untill you do Manu is better than Tony.

[Diego20]

Peaks

Regular Season

Manu: TS% .612, WS/48 .246, ORTG 118, PER 24.3
Boban: TS% .662, WS/48 .325, ORTG 130, PER 27.7

Playoffs

Manu: TS% .652, WS/48 .260, ORTG 124, PER 24.8
Boban: TS% .752, WS/48 .336, ORTG 137, PER 25.4

Advanced stats yo!

lol TP tard using small sample size

:lol

[Diego20]

Hahahaha what a liar. Parker's best playoff run was that one? How about this one?

28.4/6.8/4.2 - 59% TS, 29.3 PER

And why not put USG%? Because Parker's during that run was 39.1 while Manu's was 26.3? Not an advanced stat that you want to see? I can start giving you some off the charts advanced stats for backup players like Manu that didn't have high usage percentages.

Oh and I love the VORP stat. Is that the one that values Clyde Drexler over Shaq, Kobe, & Dirk?

Also, win shares. Good one considering Bob Feerick, Neil Johnston, and Alex Groza all had more win shares than Steph Curry in his 73-win season. Seems reliable.

That 29,3 PER in 2008-2009 was because he only played 5 games, and was first round exit (because Manu didn't play)

He led spurs nowhere
:lol

Also I love TP PER in 2014-2015 :cry 6,5 PER :cry

[Diego20]

PER when Spurs got the ring.

PER NBA average : 15

Playoffs
TP
2002-2003 PER --> 11,9 :lol
2004-2005 PER --> 12 :lol
2006-2007 PER --> 18,7 (stat padding against a D-leaguer in the finals)
2013-2014 PER --> 15,8

Manu
2002-2003 PER --> 15 PER (rookie season)
2004-2005 PER --> 24,8 PER :wow
2006-2007 PER --> 21,9 PER
2013-2014 PER --> 20,3 PER

:lol:lol

[Pocho La Pantera]

Parkertards owned again and again and again. Boring.

[Chinook]

I do think many people whip out the "sample size" rebuttal without even knowing when it's applicable.

[DAF86]

Surprisingly, no stats have been posted yet. Oh wait, this is Spurstalk...never mind.

Career regular season:

Ginobili: 14.0/4.0/3.7 on 45% shooting
Parker: 16.6/5.9/2.9 on 49% shooting

Career playoffs:

Ginobili: 14.7/3.9/4.2 on 43% shooting
Parker: 18.2/5.2/3.0 on 46% shooting

Best individual season:

Ginobili: 19.5/4.8/4.5 on 46% shooting
Parker: 22.0/6.9/3.1 on 51% shooting

Best 5 year regular season window:

Ginobili: 16.8/4.2/4.1 on 46% shooting
Parker: 18.9/6.0/3.3 on 51% shooting

Best individual playoff run:

Ginobili: 20.8/5.8/4.2 on 51% shooting
Parker: 28.6/6.8/4.2 on 55% shooting

Best 5 year playoff window:

Ginobili: 18.0/4.0/4.4 on 43% shooting
Parker: 21.3/5.5/3.6 on 49% shooting

Best individual playoff series:

Ginobili: 22.2/4.8/6.2 on 49% shooting (not even the best player on the team in that series)
Parker: 29.6/7.0/3.4 on 52% shooting

---

I guess in the theoretical world that never actually happened Ginobili was more dangerous offensively though.

Posting raw stats to compare a guy that played his entire life as a starter, against a guy that came most of his career from the bench and has always been in minutes restriction. :lol

What about advanced stats? A more valid tool to measure the actual impact of a player in the game.

We all know Manu has always been a better player than Tony, even now that he's 40 years old and has no bussiness still playing basketball. The benefits of being able to shoot, pass and have more than an inch of peripheral vision, tbh.

[Mikeanaro]

Oh Parker in no way outplayed Westbrook in the series?

Parker: 21.5/6.3/3.8 on 48%, 55 TS%, 109 ORT, 15.1 GSC
Westbrook: 18.2/7.3/5.8 on 38%, 45 TS%, 96 ORT, 12.7 GSC

Hahaha wow, what series were you watching?
You have a wrong concept about outplaying, he had better stats only to lose the series because of his hero antics but how the hell having 2 more points justifies being backdoor swept and raped by Ibaka?

[ElNono]

Hahahaha what a liar. Parker's best playoff run was that one? How about this one?

28.4/6.8/4.2 - 59% TS, 29.3 PER

Because '08-'09 wasn't a "run", it was a single series against Dallas where the Spurs lost in the 1st round, largely because Manu was injured (only playoffs Manu missed in his career IIRC).

So that was a playoff series (again, not run), where Tony tried to take over. It's unfortunate, though not unexpected, that he couldn't get us over the hump that time either.

But I mean, 2012-2013 was clearly his best playoff run overall. Applies the same to Manu with 04-05: he didn't have peak numbers in every category then, but on the overall, that was his best playoff run.

BTW, you can argue about the stats or the numbers, but they're calculated for everyone the same... I mean, after all, when posting stats, everybody is more or less picking and choosing...

EDIT: Forgot to mention the bit about USG%.... that's really more influenced by the coach than the player. I'm sure Manu wanted to play more and have a larger role, but ultimately that decision always rests with Pop...

[ElNono]

Good post. For the lay people among us, can you update your post with a legend for the acronyms ion the advanced stats?

You can check here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

But basically from what I posted:
- TS%: True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * TSA). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

- WS: Win Shares; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player. Please see the article Calculating Win Shares (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html) for more information.

- VORP: Value Over Replacement Player (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); a box score estimate of the points per 100 TEAM possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level (-2.0) player, translated to an average team and prorated to an 82-game season. Multiply by 2.70 to convert to wins over replacement. Please see the article About Box Plus/Minus (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html#vorp) (BPM) for more information.

[ElNono]

Peak Manu (2005) played with a Prime Tim Duncan.

Peak Tony (2013) played with great 2 way players but the offense was completely built around him and he took them to 30 sec of winning the championship
He destroyed Memphis in WCF that had 3 All NBA defensive including the DPOY with an offense completely buit around him


I'm not very inclined to give Manu rate stats when comparing his prime self to other players. He was a star, and if he didn't play as many minutes as other players, that's a slight against him. Tony being more durable and playing so many more minutes (and against starters) is definitely a factor in his favor.

Still looks like Manu is the better player, though.

I think both of these comments are fair, tbh... That said, Tony also played with Prime Tim Duncan, he probably just didn't know how to take advantage of that as well, or Pop simply trusted vets more back then (like Kerr, Claxton, etc). Certainly a point of debate.

As far as the other one, I think there's two sides to that coin: he was unselfish enough to be a star and at the same time accept that the coach would only play him in the sparkplug role, sometimes off the bench, just for what was better for the team. And he embraced that. In that sense, I think, that's actually a plus for him.

[ElNono]

Oh you mean Parker contributed by being the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team? Or he contributed by leading us in scoring throughout the regular season, playoffs, and Finals? Or he contributed by leading us in assists throughout the regular season and Finals?

Lol, Manu led us in NOTHING that year. Kawhi led us in steals, that's it. Wow.

There's a lot of way to 'lead'... I'm sure the stats don't reflect that Manu lead an extremely dominant bench, probably the best in the league, or that he played that finals with a microfracture in his leg... or that Kawhi really took it to Lebron in those Finals, and was clearly the best player...

Also, and this actually applies to Tony too, BTW, when he was being subbed out and Pop praised his leadership by recognizing that others were better than him for that series, and more important than his numbers... I thought that was very adult of Tony of what he said then too and should be lauded, tbh...

[ducks]

one issue with manu is his minutes had to be restricted to be effective
a regular starter is worth more because of that fact
I am glad spurs have BOTH

[beirmeistr]

hot-dog eating contests------no contest

[Proxy]

hot-dog eating contests------no contest

easily Manu, have you seen his advance HDE stats? On Lebron's level

[SASdynasty!]

Sample size, significance criterion and effect magnitute are all factors that determine the statistical power.
My point exactly. Context matters. Those stats are great, but how great when you're a bench player who plays limited minutes against second units?

[SASdynasty!]

There's a lot of way to 'lead'... I'm sure the stats don't reflect that Manu lead an extremely dominant bench, probably the best in the league, or that he played that finals with a microfracture in his leg... or that Kawhi really took it to Lebron in those Finals, and was clearly the best player...

Also, and this actually applies to Tony too, BTW, when he was being subbed out and Pop praised his leadership by recognizing that others were better than him for that series, and more important than his numbers... I thought that was very adult of Tony of what he said then too and should be lauded, tbh...
How many times do I have to answer the Claxton argument? The dude disnt even play much for a backup in that playoff run.

[ElNono]

How many times do I have to answer the Claxton argument? The dude disnt even play much for a backup in that playoff run.

Yet, we don't win the ring that year without his contribution in the final game. Or Kerr's shooting barrage in the Dallas series. Or Tony's contribution in other series.

And that's with Prime Duncan. That's what a lot of people overlook. In the playoffs, taking advantage of matchups, and sometimes throwing a wrench here or there matchup-wise, do matter.

Tony was a good sport too. If you look at that Dallas game for example, he was cheering Kerr from the bench, and really being a good teammate. That's important too, and should be recognized.

[DAF86]

My point exactly. Context matters. Those stats are great, but how great when you're a bench player who plays limited minutes against second units?

Those Manu's stats are even better as a starter son. So pick another argument to fight the lost battle, tbh.

[Mikeanaro]

Great now Manu played against scrubs all the time.

Barkley screaming GINOBILIII because he likes a bench guy playing against other bench guys.

[Diego20]

one issue with manu is his minutes had to be restricted to be effective
a regular starter is worth more because of that fact
I am glad spurs have BOTH

no you are not :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Manu never averaged more than 22 in a playoff series in his career. But I'm sure he would put up 35, lol.

Manu was playing 2-on-1 in the 2005 Finals & fared better than scoring machine Kirby against the Pistons.:lol

Meanwhile, Gilbert Arenas used to torch the Cavs:

d8qhHWGNxyw

[Ginobili3]

Manu, better shooter and passer, much stronger too. Top 10 shooting guard ever too

[ducks]

stats say tp better shooter
manu might be stronger

[bic50]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6KeyQmP-raQ/U2rqStd7RLI/AAAAAAAAFWQ/i0CpPFQAIkI/s1600/Michael+Jackson+4.gif

[DPG21920]

People (Manu fans) seem to really underrate TP when talking about Manu.

TP's durability along with some of the most efficient scoring in the history of the league for a PG was ridiculously good. Manu was great too, but they are a lot closer than people give credit for - for various reasons.

[DPG21920]

Because '08-'09 wasn't a "run", it was a single series against Dallas where the Spurs lost in the 1st round, largely because Manu was injured (only playoffs Manu missed in his career IIRC).

So that was a playoff series (again, not run), where Tony tried to take over. It's unfortunate, though not unexpected, that he couldn't get us over the hump that time either.

But I mean, 2012-2013 was clearly his best playoff run overall. Applies the same to Manu with 04-05: he didn't have peak numbers in every category then, but on the overall, that was his best playoff run.

BTW, you can argue about the stats or the numbers, but they're calculated for everyone the same... I mean, after all, when posting stats, everybody is more or less picking and choosing...

EDIT: Forgot to mention the bit about USG%.... that's really more influenced by the coach than the player. I'm sure Manu wanted to play more and have a larger role, but ultimately that decision always rests with Pop...

Just FYI, Manu & TP's career usage rate is almost identical..

[ElNono]

Just FYI, Manu & TP's career usage rate is almost identical..

somebody else brought up USG% trying to make a point that during a certain season TP's was higher... that's what I was responding to.

[Mikeanaro]

People (Manu fans) seem to really underrate TP when talking about Manu.

TP's durability along with some of the most efficient scoring in the history of the league for a PG was ridiculously good. Manu was great too, but they are a lot closer than people give credit for - for various reasons.
They are not even close for various reasons, Manu won outside Spurs and has a much more complete game than TP, how a guy that developed a 3 point shot at age 33 can be on the same page than Manu?

Getting bailed by Kerr Claxton, every last game of our championship runs had bad games and he is already gassed while Manu was great at 37 years old could keep up an awesome level.

Nobody needs to underrate him those are facts, TP fans try to diminish Manu to make TP look better.

[ElNono]

People (Manu fans) seem to really underrate TP when talking about Manu.

TP's durability along with some of the most efficient scoring in the history of the league for a PG was ridiculously good. Manu was great too, but they are a lot closer than people give credit for - for various reasons.

All these threads make little sense, tbh... we should be thankful we have both of em

[DPG21920]

They are not even close for various reasons, Manu won outside Spurs and has a much more complete game than TP, how a guy that developed a 3 point shot at age 33 can be on the same page than Manu?

Getting bailed by Kerr Claxton, every last game of our championship runs had bad games and he is already gassed while Manu was great at 37 years old could keep up an awesome level.

Nobody needs to underrate him those are facts, TP fans try to diminish Manu to make TP look better.

Sure, but look at Manu fan in this thread. TP has been an elite player for a long time and more durable as well. I think Manu was a better overall player, but TP is elite and Manu fan act like he's been some borderline player.

[tonight...you]

All these threads make little sense, tbh... we should be thankful we have both of em

[Mikeanaro]

Sure, but look at Manu fan in this thread. TP has been an elite player for a long time and more durable as well. I think Manu was a better overall player, but TP is elite and Manu fan act like he's been some borderline player.
I wouldnt say he was not elite but he was lucky to accomplish big things because he played with TD and Manu, not the other way around.

TD- Best PF ever
Manu- 3rd at most 3 pointers made in playoff history sure Curry will break Gay Ray record in 2 seasons but thats all the game he has, a 3 pointer, a layup and the alley/backdoor pass.

Manu... last postseason, he passed Michael Jordan for 11th all-time in postseason wins (120). The Argentina native is one of only nine players in NBA postseason history (Kobe Bryant, Scottie Pippen, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, LeBron James, Clyde Drexler and Dwyane Wade) with at least 2,500 points (2,903), 800 rebounds (820), 700 assists (772) and 250 steals (269) in the playoffs. Of the 197 postseason games he’s appeared in, Ginobili has come off the bench 145 times and scored 1,878 points in those appearances, the most of any reserve in NBA history.

Thats pretty elite, IMHO.

[poeticism707]

Its a shame how Parker cherry picked the Finals MVP from TD in 07' exploiting his matchup vs. a D-Leaguer and stat padding. It's a shame how people think Parker was the best player that run just because he got Finals MVP. Duncan was by far the best player and was the MVP of the Suns series (which was essentially the Finals that year).

Still bugs me he got it that year. Should have been TD.

This.

[EIC]

You can check here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

But basically from what I posted:
- TS%: True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * TSA). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

- WS: Win Shares; an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player. Please see the article Calculating Win Shares (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html) for more information.

- VORP: Value Over Replacement Player (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); a box score estimate of the points per 100 TEAM possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level (-2.0) player, translated to an average team and prorated to an 82-game season. Multiply by 2.70 to convert to wins over replacement. Please see the article About Box Plus/Minus (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html#vorp) (BPM) for more information.

Many thanks!

[poeticism707]

Pure scoring? Parker. In his prime when he had his speed he was an excellent scorer and never missed around the basket.

But if we mean pure offensive impact, than it's Manu easily. He impacted the offensive side of the ball for more than just scoring. The team transformed when prime Manu was on the court. He made scrub big men look good.

this

[cutewizard]

Prime Manu, leading ARG to that olympic gold medal over Pop, Tim and a stacked Team USA, then coming back and beasting in 2005 to get us #3... damn, the dude was dominant then, and he got it done with different teams, in the biggest stages...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is it......

[cutewizard]

(Tip of the hat to you)

That's an awesome way to put it lol... to wield chaos against order.

It reminds me of why Paquaio was so dangerous when he only knew how to throw his left hand and flurry.

He was like a wild beast fighting.

The more he became skilled and domesticated.. he lost that edge, where he would throw and attack from angles you aren't supposed to.

------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the appreciation man! Mabuhay (Long live)!

[cutewizard]

Optically, the greatness of Manu in full display:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VV6ibmaUFc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEYVtU--QVo

by god, he was UNSTOPPABLE in his prime!

[cutewizard]

And also:

I think a prime Manu could beat the hell out of the fucking Warriors, probably dismantle them so badly that Mrs Curry will protest! haha

Because he could destroy them both offensively and defensively!

In contrast, prime Tony could trade baskets with peak Curry, and we all know who would win that singular battle.

[gambit1990]

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/manu-spider.gif?w=1000

[SASdynasty!]

And also:

I think a prime Manu could beat the hell out of the fucking Warriors, probably dismantle them so badly that Mrs Curry will protest! haha

Because he could destroy them both offensively and defensively!

In contrast, prime Tony could trade baskets with peak Curry, and we all know who would win that singular battle.

Lol, comparing Tony to Curry is like comparing Manu to Kobe...and we all know who won those battles.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol, comparing Tony to Curry is like comparing Manu to Kobe...and we all know who won those battles.
You want Manu to trade baskets with the biggest chucker of all time and you think he would lose? Manu made a mid court shot with a broken arm, has Kobe made something like that?

Kobe was a flashy player but lacked the court vision Manu has, Manu first objective is to win, if Manu first objective was scoring Kobe would be crying in a corner.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPxo6kWyMmc

[Mikeanaro]

Lol Kobe ass was shaking, so much frustration...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ybUPRQfQM

[gambit1990]

Lol Kobe ass was shaking, so much frustration...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ybUPRQfQM
kobe said that was part of his shooting motion... but on his second shot attempt his elbow doesn't shoot out. pos.

[Mikeanaro]

kobe said that was part of his shooting motion... but on his second shot attempt his elbow doesn't shoot out. pos.
I saw that game live and it was clearly intentional because he was getting tamed yet no call whatsoever.

[Ginobili3]

stats say tp better shooter
manu might be stronger

TP is a starter while Manu is a bench player, so the stats will be skewed. Manu has hit more game winners and is 3rd in most 3 pt shots made in the playoffs behind Reggie and Ray. Midrange I'd probably give to Tony though, since that elbow jumper is the only thing he can hit consistently. Guess I was jumping the gun a little bit lol.

[sasaint]

kobe said that was part of his shooting motion... but on his second shot attempt his elbow doesn't shoot out. pos.

At least Kobe didn't kick Manu in the nuts. :wow

[gambit1990]

At least Kobe didn't kick Manu in the nuts. :wow
hoping draymond doesn't hit manu in the nuts during the olympics.

[Clipper Nation]

Porker was only ever a danger to his own team's chances of winning.

[gambit1990]

i wanted kidd over tp that one summer... a kidd/manu/td big three would've been sick.

[gambit1990]

a spurs team with manu and no parker is more likely to ring than a spurs team with parker and no manu.

[Clipper Nation]

Real talk, ManuVP is the 4th-best Spur ever, only behind Tim, DRob and Kawhi. In his prime, he was the best shooting guard in the league.

In contrast, Porker is one of the worst Spurs in history. Never elite at his position. Never clutch in the playoffs. Always overpaid, overrated and cancerous.

Manu :worthy:

[spurs10]

Last I looked they were on the same team and won four championships together!
:flag:

[spurs10]

Optically, the greatness of Manu in full display:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VV6ibmaUFc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEYVtU--QVo

by god, he was UNSTOPPABLE in his prime! Yes we are lucky!

[SpurOutofTownFan]

This guy in 2005 was completely unstoppable. Those games in the finals when he kept going to the basket again and again and again - what a player

[bic50]

Prime Manu was nasty. Parker was also very good and in his younger days was one of the fastest players I'd ever seen.

[ElNono]

This guy in 2005 was completely unstoppable. Those games in the finals when he kept going to the basket again and again and again - what a player

What's also interesting in that Game 6 and 7 video, is that by that point the Pistons put Tayshaun Prince on him, who was an All-NBA defense guy and probably the best perimeter defender on that team, and it didn't matter.

[SASdynasty!]

Real talk, ManuVP is the 4th-best Spur ever, only behind Tim, DRob and Kawhi. In his prime, he was the best shooting guard in the league.

In contrast, Porker is one of the worst Spurs in history. Never elite at his position. Never clutch in the playoffs. Always overpaid, overrated and cancerous.

Manu :worthy:
One of the worst Spurs in history, folks. Seems about as reasonable as your other posts. And as usual, clming with the facts, not opinions & narratives.

[SASdynasty!]

What's also interesting in that Game 6 and 7 video, is that by that point the Pistons put Tayshaun Prince on him, who was an All-NBA defense guy and probably the best perimeter defender on that team, and it didn't matter.
Lol, unstoppable? He shot 7/17 in game 6 and we lost. Hahaha! These are the games that are to Manu's credit?!

[Canyonero]

Lol, unstoppable? He shot 7/17 in game 6 and we lost. Hahaha! These are the games that are to Manu's credit?!

Why do you hate Manu so much son?

[TrainOfThought5]

Lol, unstoppable? He shot 7/17 in game 6 and we lost. Hahaha! These are the games that are to Manu's credit?!

Lol... that tayshaun prince guy was pretty good. Probably deserves a litte credit.

[ElNono]

Lol, unstoppable? He shot 7/17 in game 6 and we lost. Hahaha! These are the games that are to Manu's credit?!

How did he do in game 7? Or you don't count that ring?

crofl

[ElNono]

Let's talk Tony Parker in that closeout game 7, tbh... for all the chips... what was his line?

[Snaq O'Meal]

Why do you hate Manu so much son?

Because SASdynasty is probably Porker himself. :)

[Clipper Nation]

Let's talk Tony Parker in that closeout game 7, tbh... for all the chips... what was his line?
^ SASdynasty!'s candy ass disappearing like Porker in the playoffs after this p:lolst ^

[ElNono]

To be fair, I don't get the Tony hate either... before 2007, there were like 14 Tony fans in here: the frenchies Brazil, Bruno, and 12 of their alts...

He's come a long way since then...

[SpurOutofTownFan]

What's also interesting in that Game 6 and 7 video, is that by that point the Pistons put Tayshaun Prince on him, who was an All-NBA defense guy and probably the best perimeter defender on that team, and it didn't matter.

Right - I remember that. They switched Tayshaun on Manu to try to stop him but he would just walk around him

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Lol, unstoppable? He shot 7/17 in game 6 and we lost. Hahaha! These are the games that are to Manu's credit?!

Dude... your are making a clown of yourself