Hypothetical 2012 Trade Deadline: Is Draymond Green Worth Three Years of RJ?

[Chinook]

So it's the last month before the pre-season kicks off, so I thought it made sense to have a random thread to pass the time. I'm sure this has been asked multiple times within threads, but I just wanted to set up a poll here.

To summarize, here's what actually happened:

At the trade deadline in 2012, the Spurs traded Richard Jefferson and their first-rounder that season (30th overall) for Stephen Jackson. The Spurs made three consecutive runs deep into the post-season during the remainder of Jefferson's contract, though Jackson pretty much just lasted a year before he got cut. The Warriors used that pick on Festus Ezeli and kept Jefferson, who bricked two FTs to help the Spurs come back in Game One of the 2013 WCSFs. The eventually traded away four picks (including two unprotected first-rounders) to Utah in order to get rid of Jefferson's and Biedrins' contracts. Jefferson ended up becoming a decent role-player after the trade, eventually becoming a valuable member of the 2016 Cavs title team.

So knowing how everything turned out, here's the hypothetical:

The Spurs decide against making the trade, keeping Jefferson and their pick. They bench RJ for Kawhi just as they did with Jackson. They use their pick on Draymond Green instead. Jefferson opts into his deal and is not traded or amnestied through the 2013-2014 season. Anderson and LJC are both still drafted. They find a way to keep Splitter in 2013, but they don't sign Beli or Ayres. Everything from 2014 onwards remains the same.

Would you support that change?

On one hand, you keep a player who was almost a dark cloud hanging over the team. RJ being on the roster might've prevented the deep runs, and that last title was the sweetest. Draymond may not have been a great player after being relegated to the fifth big spot for years, and he's also a really not a Spur and may have forced his way off the team anyway. And it's not like Green and the Warriors have more titles than the Spurs have over the intervening five seasons. SA is GS' biggest obstacle once again, and they have a future HoFer in Pau who could help them get another ring.

But on the other hand, it's Draymond Fucking Green. The Spurs would be rolling into this season with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best team in the league by a long shot. They would still be under the tax this upcoming season. As far as history goes, the Jefferson who showed up in Utah and Dallas and definitely Cleveland would've been a great addition to the bench. He and Manu had great chemistry, and he learned to be a serviceable three-and-D player. If Pop were able to get that RJ to show up from 2012-2014, the Spurs might've been even better.

I think I'd go with the former. There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them. Dude's a huge question mark despite his talent. There's no guarantee that he'd mesh with the team or be as good, and as we saw last season, being the best team on paper doesn't win LOBs. I'll take a trophy and a 7/10 future over just a 9/10 future any day.

[apalisoc_9]

Absolutely not.

The hypothetical question assumes a few things that was a major result of that three year run. As bad as Jackson was in the Lockeroom, he was a willing bench player.. Jefferson was a more problematic player to manage considering his contract and his "star" reputation. IIRC, Kawhi didn't start playing at a first team rookie level pre-Jan when it was starting to get obvious that Jefferson was just not working out. He made a major post all-star for ALL NBA Rookie. It would have delayed Leonard's development and we would have been the definition of "pretender". Assuming Leonard improves to an All-star level player despite Jefferson, Green was more than likely going to be the guy to sacrifice developmental minutes..it would have been a dominos effect...Aldridge would be in portland or phoenix.

The Aftermath, We would have had Draymond Green playing without a role considering our Big Rotations from 2011-2014. We would have tried making a major trade from 2013-2015..Duncan retiring a couple years earlier.

Imo, this would be the starting lineup.

Parker, Player A ( Trade player), Leonard, Diaw, ( Traded Player)

Would be a completely different team.

from 2011 to 2016..0 tittles, with Lebron forming a scary team in the East, Durant might have stayed and won a championship, Golden State would still have Curry and Thompson and Bogut...

[ElNono]

Agree I would stick with what the Spurs did. But, I'll add that Raymond is overrrated, it's like being happy with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Dejuan Blair, Aldrige lineup, tbh... no, I much rather roll with Pau/Duncan, IMO...

The Spurs were fortunate to ride Tiago's 2 healthy seasons to two NBA Finals also, but it was clear it was time to move on there too.

RJ just wouldn't work with the Spurs, big role or small role... it's also debatable the Spurs could've landed Aldrige without a LOBT under their arms, and for that to happen you needed that albatross contract from RJ and eventually Jax gone from the books.

[Mikeanaro]

Leave Raymond alone.

[Spurtacular]

Spurs should've known firsthand that there was a reason the Warriors wanted to trade Captain Jack. Even then, trading a first for a past prime guy shooting 37.4 FG? WTF, tbh.

[daslicer]

Draymond is overrated. Pop would have waived him once he couldn't "Get over himself".

[spurs10]

I voted for the status quo but was most interested in the line about a 'Parker, Green, Kawhi, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best in the league by a long shot.' My thought is that is a hell of team indeed. However it made me think of what we have- Parker, Green, Kawhi, LMA, and Pau. He's older, but as you say Pau is a HOF'er. We won't be anyones favorite, but fundamentals have beat flash in the past. This isn't to say GSW doesn't have substance, but we have the underdog thing and a lot of championship experience going for us.

[szkorhetz]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/852/334/9f9.jpg

[Kawhitstorm]

I voted for the status quo but was most interested in the line about a 'Parker, Green, Kawhi, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best in the league by a long shot.' .
Gaymond ain't shyt unless he's playing 4-on-5 & that won't happen w/ Porker running the offense.:wakeup

[Robz4000]

Fuck no. Getting rid of Dick was one of the happiest days of my sports fandom.

[SAGirl]

It's easy for me to choose 1 bc I didn't live through the Jefferson years as a fan, so I am indifferent to him and maybe in blissfully ignorance I think he could have helped anyways bc SJAX was not determinant to have and turned out cancerous himself too. I'd rather have any of the 2 and a top player that can always be traded. We dislike Draymond bc he's in another team but he might have been a great Spur. Ezeli might have played well and there was also Chandler Parsons.

But again since I didn't live through the Jefferson years my opinion on this is shit.

[SAGirl]

Gaymond ain't shyt unless he's playing 4-on-5 & that won't happen w/ Porker running the offense.:wakeup
A valid point.

[Chinook]

Absolutely not.

The hypothetical question assumes a few things that was a major result of that three year run. As bad as Jackson was in the Lockeroom, he was a willing bench player.. Jefferson was a more problematic player to manage considering his contract and his "star" reputation. IIRC, Kawhi didn't start playing at a first team rookie level pre-Jan when it was starting to get obvious that Jefferson was just not working out. He made a major post all-star for ALL NBA Rookie. It would have delayed Leonard's development and we would have been the definition of "pretender". Assuming Leonard improves to an All-star level player despite Jefferson, Green was more than likely going to be the guy to sacrifice developmental minutes..it would have been a dominos effect...Aldridge would be in portland or phoenix.

The Aftermath, We would have had Draymond Green playing without a role considering our Big Rotations from 2011-2014. We would have tried making a major trade from 2013-2015..Duncan retiring a couple years earlier.

Imo, this would be the starting lineup.

Parker, Player A ( Trade player), Leonard, Diaw, ( Traded Player)

Would be a completely different team.

from 2011 to 2016..0 tittles, with Lebron forming a scary team in the East, Durant might have stayed and won a championship, Golden State would still have Curry and Thompson and Bogut...

Green was already a starter by the time Jefferson got traded. I doubt he would've lost minutes if Pop decided to bench Jefferson. Jack played 24mpg as a Spur that year, so it seems like there were enough minutes for everyone.

As far as the cascade, I don't disagree that things could have turned out differently than the hypothetical, but the thread straight-up says LMA still signs along with all of the roster moves after 2014. The only players who aren't Spurs are Jack, Beli and Ayres. It's also possible the Spurs would've gone with a completely different player at 30 like Kostas Papanikilaou, which would make this choice even easier. But that's a different thread.

You make a decent point about the Warriors having the Splash Bros., Durant and Bogut. Then again, you don't know what they'd do with Jack on the roster anyhow. Might've been good enough to dissuade Lacob from firing Jackson.

[SAGirl]

Green was already a starter by the time Jefferson got traded. I doubt he would've lost minutes if Pop decided to bench Jefferson. Jack played 24mpg as a Spur that year, so it seems like there were enough minutes for everyone.

As far as the cascade, I don't disagree that things could have turned out differently than the hypothetical, but the thread straight-up says LMA still signs along with all of the roster moves after 2014. The only players who aren't Spurs are Jack, Beli and Ayres. It's also possible the Spurs would've gone with a completely different player at 30 like Kostas Papanikilaou, which would make this choice even easier. But that's a different thread.

You make a decent point about the Warriors having the Splash Bros., Durant and Bogut. Then again, you don't know what they'd do with Jack on the roster anyhow. Might've been good enough to dissuade Lacob from firing Jackson.
Not fan if Beli and Jeff Ayers TBH and SJAX to me was about the same as Jefferson fir what the Spurs needed. Heck in my scenario they don't necessarily draft Raymond, Parsons was a nice choice and we switch Parsons for Belinelli heck! Who knows what that team could have accomplished. Parsons was impactful from his first season.

Considering Pop and his dilemma on WTH he's doing with Anderson I think he would have wasted Raymond. He really didn't shoot the 3 well initially and I am sure Pop would not have figured Raymond out. Lots of dleague for Raymond initially but the dude is a competitor and by his second season I guess hypothetically he would have been kicking asses.

Still think a scenario that leaves the Spurs with a talented youngster in 2012 is a good spot to be.

[Dex]

Fuck no. Getting rid of Dick was one of the happiest days of my sports fandom.

:lol I still remember the hype...first finding out that Dick was gone and Jax was coming back, then the Spurs snagging BoBo. It was like seeing the sun after 40 days of rain, and it caused a brief renaissance of SpursTalk.

The fact that the Spurs immediately followed that with a WCF appearance (which was tragically derailed), 2 straight Finals, and a ring was no small coincidence.

[Dex]

Also as OP noted, it's hard to say if Green would have developed into the player he is on the Spurs. Hell, it's hard to say if Draymond could even be the player he is today on any other team...something tells me his skill set would look a lot less flashy without Kerr's pace & space system and two of the best shooters in the league surrounding him. Lance Stephenson once led the league in triple-doubles in a Pacer system that suited his game, and now he can't even sniff a roster spot in the NBA.

Pau may be older, but he is also champion-tested and fills a much needed hole for the Spurs now that Duncan is gone.

[cjw]

Spurs should've known firsthand that there was a reason the Warriors wanted to trade Captain Jack. Even then, trading a first for a past prime guy shooting 37.4 FG? WTF, tbh.

The Spurs didn't trade a first to get Jax. They traded a first for cap flexibility. 1 offseason of Jax for 2 offseasons of Jefferson.

Not having RJ also probably helped provide more cash in resigning Danny, who was not a full Bird FA yet.

[gambit1990]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter :lol

you typed all that shit out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush :lol

you gave me shit for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago :lmao

[dabom]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter :lol

you typed all that shit out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush :lol

you gave me shit for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago :lmao

I've been meaning to say this is a shit thread. Dude can't even predict the near future roster moves for the Spurs if God told him. :lol

[DrunkTXLabrat]

I seriously doubt the spurs would have drafted Draymond. So I don't think any of it really matters.

[spurraider21]

i dont fuck with a championship

[Spurtacular]

The Spurs didn't trade a first to get Jax. They traded a first for cap flexibility. 1 offseason of Jax for 2 offseasons of Jefferson.

Not having RJ also probably helped provide more cash in resigning Danny, who was not a full Bird FA yet.

Gonna take your word for it. That's reasonable it sounds.

[Chinook]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter :lol

you typed all that shit out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush :lol

you gave me shit for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago :lmao

I don't think I've ever seen another poster hitch their wagon to such a failure of a trade idea as you have. I bet you still watch HD DVDs as well. Let it go, man.

[Leetonidas]

Tough call honestly but considering how things turned out and the Spurs getting a chip out of it I think I would just keep things as they were. No telling how Green would be in another scenario tbh and he was trash his first couple seasons

[Chinook]

I know the thread title and poll question don't help, but the talk about Draymond really overshadows what I consider to be the more interesting question: What would three more years of RJ mean for the Spurs?

I think it's possible that he was going to be benched had he stayed. Kawhi was just too good. Would he have pouted and become a more obvious cancer (many felt he was dragging the team down, but I don't think I heard of him having any attitude issues)? People who've been watching the Spurs for more than a couple of years might remember this "incident" between RJ and Duncan:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulg9n8ou1Dw

I think it was mostly in jest, but obviously, if Tim actually did have beef with Jefferson for whatever reason, he had to go. The team depended so much on chemistry for their Finals runs that it just doesn't seem worth the risk to have him on the team.

Or would he've become Dallas/Cleveland Jefferson if given a bit more time? We saw flashes of that RJ during his time with the Spurs. He made some nice defensive games (shutting down David West as a small-ball four) and some games where he carried the team from three for stretches. And again, his ability to slash and finish made all the sense in the world with Neal/Mills, Manu Diaw/Bonner and Splitter. On paper, that's a huge upgrade over Jack and Beli.

Did RJ need to be released and then salary-dumped in order for the change to sink in? Did the team need the fire that Jack provided to take their game to the next level? Was the trade the only way Pop was going to figure out his wing rotation? There's a lot to think about before you get into the possibility of Dray and Kawhi being locked into long-term deals along with LMA and Green.

If 2014 weren't so damned special, I'd be on the other side of this, I think. But this is worth three "superteam" rings:

http://hoopshabit.com/files/2014/06/tim-duncan-nba-finals-miami-heat-san-antonio-spurs3.jpg

[gambit1990]

I don't think I've ever seen another poster hitch their wagon to such a failure of a trade idea as you have. I bet you still watch HD DVDs as well. Let it go, man.
you were the one who wanted to keep parker over dragic :lol

and you're wrong again, btw... i was never into hd dvd, ps3 meant blu ray.

chinook still typing all out these paragraphs... all the original post had to say was: "would you guys give up a championship for a chance at draymond? no? me either."

[Chinook]

you were the one who wanted to keep parker over dragic :lol

and you're wrong again, btw... i was never into hd dvd, ps3 meant blu ray.

chinook still typing all out these paragraphs... all the original post had to say was: "would you guys give up a championship for a chance at draymond? no? me either."

:lol Bitching about having to read multiple paragraphs
:lol Bitching about tl;dr titles despite being scared of paragraphs
:lol Bitching about a person presenting the other side of an argument
:lmao STILL trying to push that shitty illogical trade

[daslicer]

Draymond is crap I don't get why people really want him. He's a system player that benefits from playing with the league's most popular team. I doubt the refs would allow Draymond to get away with the fouling he does on defense if he was on the Spurs. Also factor in Draymond is a big time shit talker in the lockerroom which would get him kicked off the team. No way would Pop take shit from Draymond like Kerr does. The moment Draymond would mouth off to Pop is the moment he's either waived or on a bus towards Austin.

[hater]

what if steve jobs had not died ?

[Emperor]

What if Manu didn't foul Dirk in '06? What if Kawhi made his free throws in '13? What if ****** made his in '95? What if Strickland didn't make that stupid pass in '90. Too many to think of for me.

[gambit1990]

chinook in this thread: "would you guys give up a championship for a chance at draymond? no? me either, but let me write 10 paragraphs about it anyways." :lol

hopefully the next thread you make won't be as utterly pointless as this one.

[Chinook]

chinook in this thread: "would you guys give up a championship for a chance at draymond? no? me either, but let me write 10 paragraphs about it anyways." :lol

hopefully the next thread you make won't be as utterly pointless as this one.

Leave it up to you to have shitty reading comprehension.

[SAGirl]

That's really what's unknowable Chinook: the chemistry issue. As others above this post said it's unknown how Raymond would have developed under Pop. He's a hot head now, but Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation. It's possible he might have turned out great and actually provided leadership and a competitive fire the team kind of needs in their young crop. But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player. Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball and that was with the big 3 limping on one leg metaphorically. And he was heralded the franchise heir from a young stage.

I go back to Raymond bc Jefferson is superfluous. He and SJAX wouldn't have played a big part in the championship and Jefferson could have taken the Belli role and been fine. Belli was not significant in any defensive area whatsoever.

But can't address the Jefferson chemistry issue. I won't comment on that bc I don't know.

[MolaMola790]

The Hate RJ gets here is ridiclous. clearly he was a disappointment but wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be...holy crap

[dabom]

This guy would have kept DWORST. :lmao


At starting Center. :lmao

[dabom]

Can mods move this POS to the "ThinkTank"? :lol

[dabom]

Lets ask Tim Duncan what he thinks about this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjIsgpZ9ZU

[dabom]

Inb4dalock

[dabom]

13 people have so far voted and mtfkr OP didn't even make it public. POS thread. :lol

[cd98]

Did the Olympics prove that D. Green is a system player?

[Chinook]

The Hate RJ gets here is ridiclous. clearly he was a disappointment but wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be...holy crap

http://onestarlife.com/system/uploads/gallery_photo/photo/12/1253/swiper_______________2016-06-14___22.05.30.png

Truth bomb from my fellow fish-themed poster.

[gambit1990]

This guy would have kept DWORST. :lmao


At starting Center. :lmao
no way, did he really say he'd start him at center? :lol


Can mods move this POS to the "ThinkTank"? :lol
:lmao tbh. chinook goes out of the way to ask an irrelevant but possibly controversial question that only chinook could think of... and then he takes the most vanilla take :lol

"i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title but here's some of paragraphs about why i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title" :lol

chinook had this to say in the last paragraph of his original post:

There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them.
that's all his original post had to say :lol

[dabom]

no way, did he really say he'd start him at center? :lol


:lmao tbh. chinook goes out of the way to ask an irrelevant but possibly controversial question that only chinook could think of... and then he takes the most vanilla take :lol

"i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title but here's some of paragraphs about why i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title" :lol

chinook had this to say in the last paragraph of his original post:

that's all his original post had to say :lol

Yeah he said that. In more than on thread. :lol

I mean theirs so many hypotheticals withing this hypothetical. Makes no sense for anything. :lol

[Chinook]

no way, did he really say he'd start him at center? :lol


:lmao tbh. chinook goes out of the way to ask an irrelevant but possibly controversial question that only chinook could think of... and then he takes the most vanilla take :lol

"i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title but here's some of paragraphs about why i too disagree with the question i pose in the thread's title" :lol

chinook had this to say in the last paragraph of his original post:

that's all his original post had to say :lol

I guess we can't all be insightful enough to bump the same thread over and over despite the fact that nothing changed or to try to circle-jerk with the forum's soggy biscuit. I can see why you are scared of paragraphs if you think making five one-sentence posts in a row is hilarious.

[dabom]

13 hours and no one else has voted. :lmao

I could literally put a fathead vs Simmons minutes allocation thread and get more votes in an hour.

[GSH]

I think I'd go with the former. There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them. Dude's a huge question mark despite his talent. There's no guarantee that he'd mesh with the team or be as good, and as we saw last season, being the best team on paper doesn't win LOBs. I'll take a trophy and a 7/10 future over just a 9/10 future any day.


If the question is whether it would have been better to draft Draymond, instead of signing SJax, then of course the answer is yea. Signing Jackson was a bust. But getting rid of Jefferson's bloated contract was not. Like CJW said, re-signing Danny was a BIG priority for the FO (that I got first-hand), and without spinning off that albatross contract, there's a good chance they lose Danny. Would having a young Draymond on the roster have made the difference in that 2013 Championship? Probably not. He didn't do a whole lot for GSW that first season. And like you said, without things falling the way they did, the '14 Championship might not have come together.

If you want to play "what-if", the Spurs could have signed Chandler Parsons (or Jimmy Butler) and Isaiah Thomas in 2011, instead of CoJo and Hanga. Or if they had drafted Patty Mills instead of Nando. Maybe Jerebko or Marcus Thornton in place of Blair. Those might have made a difference in the past. Having Draymond on the roster now would be a plus for the future, but I sure as hell wouldn't trade '14 to get him, and he wouldn't have made the difference in '13. It's the LOB's that matter.

[GSH]

I can see why you are scared of paragraphs if you think making five one-sentence posts in a row is hilarious.


A lot of the time his whole posts consist of an emoji. If he's really got something to say, he'll double up on the emoji, because two ROTFL's is a lot stronger than one. Hell, a lot of times he'll start a new fucking thread that's nothing but a title and an emoji. The key is to make the thread title controversial, so he gets lots of attention.

Get rid of one guy and about three alts, and this place gets 100% better overnight. (Now... cue the shitstorm from that one guy and his three alts.)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We also saved ~$11m on the deal which allowed us to make a run at Gasol and keep Mills and Diaw.

[Chinook]

If the question is whether it would have been better to draft Draymond, instead of signing SJax, then of course the answer is yea. Signing Jackson was a bust. But getting rid of Jefferson's bloated contract was not. Like CJW said, re-signing Danny was a BIG priority for the FO (that I got first-hand), and without spinning off that albatross contract, there's a good chance they lose Danny. Would having a young Draymond on the roster have made the difference in that 2013 Championship? Probably not. He didn't do a whole lot for GSW that first season. And like you said, without things falling the way they did, the '14 Championship might not have come together.

If you want to play "what-if", the Spurs could have signed Chandler Parsons (or Jimmy Butler) and Isaiah Thomas in 2011, instead of CoJo and Hanga. Or if they had drafted Patty Mills instead of Nando. Maybe Jerebko or Marcus Thornton in place of Blair. Those might have made a difference in the past. Having Draymond on the roster now would be a plus for the future, but I sure as hell wouldn't trade '14 to get him, and he wouldn't have made the difference in '13. It's the LOB's that matter.

Well, there are two things here:

First, Jefferson made about $100k less than Jack did in 2012-2013, so the trade actually added salary to their bill. They still could've afforded to sign Green. The following season, sure, Jefferson's $11 Million was larger than the $4.5 Million Beli and Ayres cost, but the team was $7 Million under the tax line (see Bruno's Thread for more details (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220819)), so there was enough room then too. Obviously, after that it wasn't a factor, as RJ's deal was done. While we can talk about whether Green or Leonard would've been hurt on the court by Jefferson, it doesn't look like they couldn't both be re-signed.

And that ignores the possibility of RJ opting out after being a rotation player on a contender rather than a waste of a roster spot in Utah.

Second is that as I have mentioned before, the Jefferson factor is getting overlooked. He eventually turned into the three-and-D role-player Pop envisioned, though he was never as good as Green. Having three good defenders and another shooter would've helped a lot in the 2013 Finals, where Pop had to tighten his rotation to like seven players. In 2014, who knows how they do without the loss to fuel them, but on paper, they'd've been the favorites once again.

People look at this thread as, "Would you trade a title for Draymond?" when it's really more complicated than that. I think the chances of the Spurs winning at least one ring from 2012-2014 without that trade are still near 100 percent.

[GSH]

Well, there are two things here:

First, Jefferson made about $100k less than Jack did in 2012-2013, so the trade actually added salary to their bill. They still could've afforded to sign Green. The following season, sure, Jefferson's $11 Million was larger than the $4.5 Million Beli and Ayres cost, but the team was $7 Million under the tax line (see Bruno's Thread for more details (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220819)), so there was enough room then too. Obviously, after that it wasn't a factor, as RJ's deal was done. While we can talk about whether Green or Leonard would've been hurt on the court by Jefferson, it doesn't look like they couldn't both be re-signed.


Except that they only had to pay Jackson for one year, and RJ still had two albatross years left on his contract. If you want to look at signing a single player in a vacuum, have at it. But you're smarter than that. You're a fucking argument addict. Even when people agree with you, you have to find a way to correct them. There's a point where being knowledgeable turns into being an asshole.




And that ignores the possibility of RJ opting out after being a rotation player on a contender rather than a waste of a roster spot in Utah.

RJ played all 82 games in Utah, logged over 2,200 minutes, and shot .409 from 3P. He was probably less of a waste of roster space there than most places, because they obviously needed him on the floor... a lot.


He eventually turned into the three-and-D role-player Pop envisioned, though he was never as good as Green. Having three good defenders and another shooter would've helped a lot in the 2013 Finals, where Pop had to tighten his rotation to like seven players. In 2014, who knows how they do without the loss to fuel them, but on paper, they'd've been the favorites once again.

:rolleyes He had the second worst DRTG on the Cavs, next to Dellavadova. He made .5 3-pointers per game in the playoffs, compared to .9 for the season. (Actually 11 3-pointers in 21 playoff games.) He played well in the post-season, especially against the W's small lineups. But he didn't "turn into" anything. And I'm pretty sure Pop didn't envision him being a role-player, since he had RJ starting damn near every game he played in SA.


People look at this thread as, "Would you trade a title for Draymond?" when it's really more complicated than that. I think the chances of the Spurs winning at least one ring from 2012-2014 without that trade are still near 100 percent.


Well if that's what you wanted the thread to be about, why didn't you fucking say so? And there is no "near 100 percent" when it comes to winning a Championship. Chemistry and match-ups are always big factors. Just ask Golden State.

The fact is, RJ's performance while he was here was shit, which is why the Spurs had to give up a first round pick to get rid of him. And don't forget that he was a waste of a roster spot in Utah, just a couple of years before. So he evolved into the player Pop envisioned, suddenly, in his 15th season? Tell me another story, Grampa.

[dabom]

GSH going in raw. :lol

[Brazil]

I'll add that Raymond is overrrated

:lol is that a new schtick ? everytime we discuss raymond you will post he is overrated ?

[Brazil]

on a side note it is a good offseason thread, you just need to read OP carefully instead of jumping on conclusions based on title... not sure why people got triggered over it... probably some agenda and personnal beefs involved

tbh, fwiw

[dabom]

:lol is that a new schtick ? everytime we discuss raymond you will post he is overrated ?

His go to move is kicking NBA players in the balls...

[Brazil]

That's really what's unknowable Chinook: the chemistry issue. As others above this post said it's unknown how Raymond would have developed under Pop. He's a hot head now, but Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation. It's possible he might have turned out great and actually provided leadership and a competitive fire the team kind of needs in their young crop. But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player. Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball and that was with the big 3 limping on one leg metaphorically. And he was heralded the franchise heir from a young stage.

I go back to Raymond bc Jefferson is superfluous. He and SJAX wouldn't have played a big part in the championship and Jefferson could have taken the Belli role and been fine. Belli was not significant in any defensive area whatsoever.

But can't address the Jefferson chemistry issue. I won't comment on that bc I don't know.

First big up to you for not mentionning your bf kyle tbh... even though we can feel some indirects like: "Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation" or "Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball"

now dat part is quite hilarious: "But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player."

like dude did not play his whole short career with ball dominant guys :lmao

[dabom]

on a side note it is a good offseason thread, you just need to read OP carefully instead of jumping on conclusions based on title... not sure why people got triggered over it... probably some agenda and personnal beefs involved

tbh, fwiw

Good thread but not worth a vote? :lol

[Brazil]

His go to move is kicking NBA players in the balls...

that and playing defense and racking assists

[Brazil]

Good thread but not worth a vote? :lol

bra I'm on off season mode :lol I don't reply much at anything serious, does not mean it is a shitty thread :lol I would need to give a thought but I clearly don't want to

[Horse]

So it's the last month before the pre-season kicks off, so I thought it made sense to have a random thread to pass the time. I'm sure this has been asked multiple times within threads, but I just wanted to set up a poll here.

To summarize, here's what actually happened:

At the trade deadline in 2012, the Spurs traded Richard Jefferson and their first-rounder that season (30th overall) for Stephen Jackson. The Spurs made three consecutive runs deep into the post-season during the remainder of Jefferson's contract, though Jackson pretty much just lasted a year before he got cut. The Warriors used that pick on Festus Ezeli and kept Jefferson, who bricked two FTs to help the Spurs come back in Game One of the 2013 WCSFs. The eventually traded away four picks (including two unprotected first-rounders) to Utah in order to get rid of Jefferson's and Biedrins' contracts. Jefferson ended up becoming a decent role-player after the trade, eventually becoming a valuable member of the 2016 Cavs title team.

So knowing how everything turned out, here's the hypothetical:

The Spurs decide against making the trade, keeping Jefferson and their pick. They bench RJ for Kawhi just as they did with Jackson. They use their pick on Draymond Green instead. Jefferson opts into his deal and is not traded or amnestied through the 2013-2014 season. Anderson and LJC are both still drafted. They find a way to keep Splitter in 2013, but they don't sign Beli or Ayres. Everything from 2014 onwards remains the same.

Would you support that change?

On one hand, you keep a player who was almost a dark cloud hanging over the team. RJ being on the roster might've prevented the deep runs, and that last title was the sweetest. Draymond may not have been a great player after being relegated to the fifth big spot for years, and he's also a really not a Spur and may have forced his way off the team anyway. And it's not like Green and the Warriors have more titles than the Spurs have over the intervening five seasons. SA is GS' biggest obstacle once again, and they have a future HoFer in Pau who could help them get another ring.

But on the other hand, it's Draymond Fucking Green. The Spurs would be rolling into this season with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best team in the league by a long shot. They would still be under the tax this upcoming season. As far as history goes, the Jefferson who showed up in Utah and Dallas and definitely Cleveland would've been a great addition to the bench. He and Manu had great chemistry, and he learned to be a serviceable three-and-D player. If Pop were able to get that RJ to show up from 2012-2014, the Spurs might've been even better.

I think I'd go with the former. There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them. Dude's a huge question mark despite his talent. There's no guarantee that he'd mesh with the team or be as good, and as we saw last season, being the best team on paper doesn't win LOBs. I'll take a trophy and a 7/10 future over just a 9/10 future any day.

Fuck donkey-face Gaymond

[dabom]

that and playing defense and racking assists

D Blair IQ...

[Chinook]

Except that they only had to pay Jackson for one year, and RJ still had two albatross years left on his contract. If you want to look at signing a single player in a vacuum, have at it. But you're smarter than that. You're a fucking argument addict. Even when people agree with you, you have to find a way to correct them. There's a point where being knowledgeable turns into being an asshole.

Look, if you don't want to discuss things, no one's forcing you to post. You thought that RJ made it difficult to re-up Green, but mathematically, that isn't true. They had the wiggle room for those years. You and I agree that we wouldn't reverse the deal if we could. But as I have repeatedly said, I feel like the discussion is more nuanced than just a yes or a no. That's not being nitpicky or corrective of your argument.


RJ played all 82 games in Utah, logged over 2,200 minutes, and shot .409 from 3P. He was probably less of a waste of roster space there than most places, because they obviously needed him on the floor... a lot.

And that's fine. But he was a waste of a spot because Utah was a bottom-feeder who only took on his deal because they were getting paid (with picks) to do so.


:rolleyes He had the second worst DRTG on the Cavs, next to Dellavadova. He made .5 3-pointers per game in the playoffs, compared to .9 for the season. (Actually 11 3-pointers in 21 playoff games.) He played well in the post-season, especially against the W's small lineups. But he didn't "turn into" anything. And I'm pretty sure Pop didn't envision him being a role-player, since he had RJ starting damn near every game he played in SA

Green's a role-player, and he's started almost every game for five years. RJ was probably projected to be in a similar role, though with more offense and less defense. You're absolutely right that he was never good enough to justify the contract and that Pop would've wanted more from him than the man Old RJ was/is. But the role was the same.


Well if that's what you wanted the thread to be about, why didn't you fucking say so? And there is no "near 100 percent" when it comes to winning a Championship. Chemistry and match-ups are always big factors. Just ask Golden State.

I said it on multiple occasions, including the thread title. Other posters might assuming that that trade cleared the way to the title, but I think it's up for debate. And nothing is 100 percent, but plenty of things are easier to see in retrospect. The Spurs of that era were the best team in the West for three years. They won 41/58 games in those playoffs. That's a better record than GS' 31/45 the last two seasons or the Heatles' 59/88 record. They had it on paper. Add in the intangibles from Pop and the Big Three, and they were going to get one.


The fact is, RJ's performance while he was here was shit, which is why the Spurs had to give up a first round pick to get rid of him. And don't forget that he was a waste of a roster spot in Utah, just a couple of years before. So he evolved into the player Pop envisioned, suddenly, in his 15th season? Tell me another story, Grampa.

RJ wasn't a horrible Spur. He just wasn't right. I don't know if that was just fan perception or if it was something real that affected the team (hence why it's an interesting discussion point). But to act like he didn't develop is silly. He was so bad at shooting in his first season in SA that he had to take long-twos instead of threes. More than just tangibles, He needed to chance his attitude. That took time, the same way it did with Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and David West. Though RJ isn't in those guys' league.

And dude, I'm 26. What's with the grampa comment?

[Chinook]

Fuck donkey-face Gaymond

Straight from Horse's mouth.

[SAGirl]

First big up to you for not mentionning your bf kyle tbh... even though we can feel some indirects like: "Pop breaks rookies down b4 they even get in the rotation" or "Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball"

now dat part is quite hilarious: "But playing with a ball dominant Manu and Tony back in the day Raymond would not have been developed into a top player."

like dude did not play his whole short career with ball dominant guys :lmao
If it bothers you so much that I like Kyle you will be bothered a lot of the time. I am not going to change and don't give a shyt about trolling. You taught me to ignore trolling at this point it's funny to me when guys get all angry bc I like Kyle :flag:

Here: Kyle Kyle Kyle Kyle.... you get it right? Kyle. :lmao

[SAGirl]

Well, there are two things here:

First, Jefferson made about $100k less than Jack did in 2012-2013, so the trade actually added salary to their bill. They still could've afforded to sign Green. The following season, sure, Jefferson's $11 Million was larger than the $4.5 Million Beli and Ayres cost, but the team was $7 Million under the tax line (see Bruno's Thread for more details (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220819)), so there was enough room then too. Obviously, after that it wasn't a factor, as RJ's deal was done. While we can talk about whether Green or Leonard would've been hurt on the court by Jefferson, it doesn't look like they couldn't both be re-signed.

And that ignores the possibility of RJ opting out after being a rotation player on a contender rather than a waste of a roster spot in Utah.

Second is that as I have mentioned before, the Jefferson factor is getting overlooked. He eventually turned into the three-and-D role-player Pop envisioned, though he was never as good as Green. Having three good defenders and another shooter would've helped a lot in the 2013 Finals, where Pop had to tighten his rotation to like seven players. In 2014, who knows how they do without the loss to fuel them, but on paper, they'd've been the favorites once again.

People look at this thread as, "Would you trade a title for Draymond?" when it's really more complicated than that. I think the chances of the Spurs winning at least one ring from 2012-2014 without that trade are still near 100 percent.
I think so too. They still win one title and might have won two bc SJAX turned out cancerous himself. And the draft as far as the Spurs after Kawhi has always been about the future. The team was all in super win now mode to take advantage of the big 3s (and Timmy's twilight) with Kawhi in a role that required defense first and supplementary scoring as needed. Kawhi and Danny provided the defensive toughness that opened the championship door and it was going to be a short window bc Tim and Manu were near the end of their careers anyways.

Raymond would have been for the future. It's actually a great possibility he would have been a more perfect pupil for Diaw than Kyle. Heck Diaw might have found himself traded out sooner once his coastorama trends got back to 2015 by which time Dray would have been coming into his own (while Kyle in comparison was in the dleague in 2015 as a 21 yr old rookie). Dray could have made a difference in 2015 and thereafter when Diaw started to be an inconsistent guy, Tiago got injured most of the season and Bonner was starting games for the Spurs. I actually can see Bonner losing his Spurs minutes sooner than he did (and Bonner haters should thank Kyle for taking those from him and Bertans joining the team was the final coup ). With Raymond in the team no way Bonner plays almost 900 minutes in 2015 (while shooting 36.5% from 3, the only valuable part of his game at that point) and is signed thereafter.

[Brazil]

If it bothers you so much that I like Kyle you will be bothered a lot of the time. I am not going to change and don't give a shyt about trolling. You taught me to ignore trolling at this point it's funny to me when guys get all angry bc I like Kyle :flag:

Here: Kyle Kyle Kyle Kyle.... you get it right? Kyle. :lmao

I'm not bothered darling... I'm merely giving you a little star to be able to talk about Spurs without mentionning him because it's kinda refreshing and it must be hard for you to be able to do so. I alway try to reward the effort when I see one.

Now your take on Draymond is quite mind blowing... :lmao

Still

[Brazil]

I think so too. They still win one title and might have won two bc SJAX turned out cancerous himself. And the draft as far as the Spurs after Kawhi has always been about the future. The team was all in super win now mode to take advantage of the big 3s (and Timmy's twilight) with Kawhi in a role that required defense first and supplementary scoring as needed. Kawhi and Danny provided the defensive toughness that opened the championship door and it was going to be a short window bc Tim and Manu were near the end of their careers anyways.

Raymond would have been for the future. It's actually a great possibility he would have been a more perfect pupil for Diaw than Kyle. Heck Diaw might have found himself traded out sooner once his coastorama trends got back to 2015 by which time Dray would have been coming into his own (while Kyle in comparison was in the dleague in 2015 as a 21 yr old). Dray could have made a difference in 2015 and thereafter when Diaw started to be an inconsistent guy, Tiago got injured most of the season and Bonner was starting games for the Spurs. I actually can see Bonner losing his Spurs minutes sooner than he did (and Bonner haters should thank Kyle for taking those from him and Bertans joining the team was the final coup ). With Raymond in the team no way Bonner plays almost 900 minutes in 2015 and is signed thereafter.

:rolleyes back again with Kylie ? shhhh girl

oh and :lol at the notion of Kyle being a kinda pupil for Diaw

[SAGirl]

I'm not bothered darling... I'm merely giving you a little star to be able to talk about Spurs without mentionning him because it's kinda refreshing and it must be hard for you to be able to do so. I alway try to reward the effort when I see one.

Now your take on Draymond is quite mind blowing... :lmao

Still
No further interest in the conversation. Back to the usual program.

[Brazil]

No further interest in the conversation. Back to the usual program.

your capitulation is duly noted

let us proceed



and because I like giving credit when credit is due... copyright @ Thread

[dabom]

:rolleyes back again with Kylie ? shhhh girl

oh and :lol at the notion of Kyle being a kinda pupil for Diaw

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is fucking super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from? :lol

[Brazil]

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is fucking super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from? :lol

It is coming from our cheerleading team leader tbh

:lol

[K...]

Diaw was a player when he was younger. Fathead has no passing or post up skills or 3point shot. He is fucking super unathletic. Something diaw was not When he was younger. Where did this fathead and diaw have the same game myth come from? :lol

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full retard per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!

[SAGirl]

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full retard per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!
Lol It was troll Brazil's doing. Seriously dude latches on to Kyle more than me. At this point I think daboom and Brazil basically will bring him up every time they can with the intention of trolling.


Sorry Chinook. :lol

[Brazil]

:lol wtf blaming me for bringing Kyle in this discussion

SAGirl introduces dat Kyle slurping everytime she posts tbh

[dabom]

That's why it's almost always comparing Diaw 2.0 instead of Diaw 1.0. It's usually assumed the comparison only applies to old Diaw. Also you jumped the shark in saying he has no skills. You went full retard per par.


Congrats everyone this is now a Kyle thread!

Can you tell me a skill that he has with some proof?

[K...]

Can you tell me a skill that he has with some proof?

Dude you don't get to the nba with no skill. He didn't turn over the ball, he was an effective defender who used his length, he actually shot the ball with a rate greater than 0%. C'mon man, chill out with nonsense.

[K...]

:lol wtf blaming me for bringing Kyle in this discussion

SAGirl introduces dat Kyle slurping everytime she posts tbh

You have Kyle hater ptsd. You have tried so hard to be a cool edgy Kyle hater but your mind kept rejecting the idea because Kyle is actually good! But you have to tweak some posters and hate Kyle.. Uh it hurts. Now you're seeing Kyle everywhere.

[dabom]

Dude you don't get to the nba with no skill. He didn't turn over the ball, he was an effective defender who used his length, he actually shot the ball with a rate greater than 0%. C'mon man, chill out with nonsense.

Again with the bottom totem strawing. "His field goal went up" :lmao

"He's in the NBA he must be good"

I don't know why I have to explain seeing as how its common sense. We are describing these players in comparison with other NBA players. Is it so hard to comprehend brah?

[Brazil]

You have Kyle hater ptsd. You have tried so hard to be a cool edgy Kyle hater but your mind kept rejecting the idea because Kyle is actually good! But you have to tweak some posters and hate Kyle.. Uh it hurts. Now you're seeing Kyle everywhere.

I don't think Kyle is good tbh.. I'm consistent tho saying the same since he has been drafted. If saying dude sucks and laughing at ideas like he is the future ginobili or dude is Bobo pupil is trying to be cool and edgy then so be it...

[apalisoc_9]

:lol wtf blaming me for bringing Kyle in this discussion

SAGirl introduces dat Kyle slurping everytime she posts tbh

:lol

[SAGirl]

You have Kyle hater ptsd. You have tried so hard to be a cool edgy Kyle hater but your mind kept rejecting the idea because Kyle is actually good! But you have to tweak some posters and hate Kyle.. Uh it hurts. Now you're seeing Kyle everywhere.
I didn't think dude would keep doubling down on the trolling when his schtick has backfired already but he's down deep. No way to go but further down that hole. PTSD or some shit.

[Mikeanaro]

2 DeJuan Blairs on the same team? whats this? multiplicity?

[dabom]

2 DeJuan Blairs on the same team? whats this? multiplicity?

They're both the retarded version. :lol

[gambit1990]

I guess we can't all be insightful enough
do you have any insight at all?

It's just obvious that D-West is still a legit starter in the league and that he and LMA would work just fine as a starting front court with Kawhi.
david west starting :lol
david west + lma "would work just fine" :lol

[dabom]

do you have any insight at all?

david west starting :lol
david west + lma "would work just fine" :lol

:lol

[gambit1990]

chinook:
wouldn't trade parker for dragic :lol
would start david west :lol
wanted boban + sully over gasol :lol
would be fine if the spurs offered jordan clarkson a max deal :lmao

[dabom]

chinook:
wouldn't trade parker for dragic :lol
would start david west :lol
wanted boban + sully over gasol :lol
would be fine if the spurs offered jordan clarkson a max deal :lmao

Jump on the 3 point shot. ElNono :lmao

I've been saying this guy is wack for years. Everyone see's it but just ignores him I guess. Much like the "thinktank" :lol

[ElNono]

Won't shit on Chinook for having an opinion, tbh... When you have Culbear and Avante, anybody else looks decent, IMO... :lol

I always thought the Think Tank was ridiculous though, even back when Bruno was running it...

[Chinook]

do you have any insight at all?

david west starting :lol
david west + lma "would work just fine" :lol

:lol Thinks that laughing at something makes it false.

[Chinook]

chinook:
wouldn't trade parker for dragic :lol
would start david west :lol
wanted boban + sully over gasol :lol
would be fine if the spurs offered jordan clarkson a max deal :lmao

:lol wanting an even worse contract for a guy who quits on his team if he cant dominate the ball
:lol too dumb to even know a max for Clarkson was like $14 Million a season.
:lol will be the first person to bitch about Gasol if something goes wrong, especially if he can throw in some emoticons
:lol not understanding opportunity cost worth a damn.
:rollin STILL pimping that trade.

[Brazil]

I didn't think dude would keep doubling down on the trolling when his schtick has backfired already but he's down deep. No way to go but further down that hole. PTSD or some shit.

:lol my schtick is doing just fine tbh... at this point KA is at best a marginal end of the bench dude. His shooting is horrible from 3 from 2 from everywhere and his passing that supposedly is his strength is average at best. Only bright side is his surprisingly enough defense and rebounding. All that is good and all but without a reliable 3 pter he is doing no good to the Spurs

[gambit1990]

I've been saying this guy is wack for years. Everyone see's it but just ignores him I guess.
i really started questioning chinook's takes this summer. i don't remember him being right a lot in general tbh.

[NameLess Scrub]

Heck took Kawhi 5 seasons to burst out the door as a top player and command the ball and that was with the big 3 limping on one leg metaphorically.
know.

You could almost say.. literally limping.

[NameLess Scrub]

Draymond is crap I don't get why people really want him. He's a system player that benefits from playing with the league's most popular team. I doubt the refs would allow Draymond to get away with the fouling he does on defense if he was on the Spurs. Also factor in Draymond is a big time shit talker in the lockerroom which would get him kicked off the team. No way would Pop take shit from Draymond like Kerr does. The moment Draymond would mouth off to Pop is the moment he's either waived or on a bus towards Austin.

This makes sense to me. His apparent reliance on ref help and a system makes for a big question mark regarding his effectiveness in another team. Also, he hurt his team this year in the Finals by doing one too much of his antics, or maybe one to the absolute wrong player.

Spurs were unlucky, tbh. I still feel they should have repeated from '12 to '14 or '13 to '15.

[TD 21]

We've had our share of disagreements, but I can appreciate that he at least tries to contribute to the quality of discussion.

As far as the question, I'd only even consider trading any championship, let alone one like '14, for a young, transcendent player in the making.

[dabom]

We've had our share of disagreements, but I can appreciate that he at least tries to contribute to the quality of discussion.

As far as the question, I'd only even consider trading any championship, let alone one like '14, for a young, transcendent player in the making.

This isn't quality discussion though. Nothing makes it quality. Writing 20 fucking paragraphs does not make any of it quality. :lol

[dabom]

We've had our share of disagreements, but I can appreciate that he at least tries to contribute to the quality of discussion.

As far as the question, I'd only even consider trading any championship, let alone one like '14, for a young, transcendent player in the making.

And what do you think about all his shitty comments or takes throughout last year only? Would you start Dworst as starting center for the Spurs this year?..

[Emperor]

This makes sense to me. His apparent reliance on ref help and a system makes for a big question mark regarding his effectiveness in another team. Also, he hurt his team this year in the Finals by doing one too much of his antics, or maybe one to the absolute wrong player.

Spurs were unlucky, tbh. I still feel they should have repeated from '12 to '14 or '13 to '15.

Shit could have probably repeated from '03-'07 also.

[dabom]

i really started questioning chinook's takes this summer. i don't remember him being right a lot in general tbh.

He never is. Dude is the Donald Trump of ST. :lmao

[Sean Cagney]

Fuck no. Getting rid of Dick was one of the happiest days of my sports fandom.

^^^^^

[exstatic]

Spurs should've known firsthand that there was a reason the Warriors wanted to trade Captain Jack. Even then, trading a first for a past prime guy shooting 37.4 FG? WTF, tbh.

You don't really understand the NBA at all, do you? There are trades that are not about player value, but money. Spurs saved almost exactly $11M on that trade, for a very late first rounder. The most cash you can dish out in ALL trades for an NBA calendar year is $3M. That trade was and is still viewed as a triumph around the league, and really has nothing to do with Green at all. GS draft-rented Ezele for a couple of years, and now have nothing left to show for the $11M they spent in Dick Jefferson the next season.

There is a flawed assumption behind this whole thread: that the Spurs would have used the #30 on Green if they kept the pick. Nothing could be further from the truth, and all you have to do is examine his role in the 2016 Finals loss to see why. He's an out of control punk who thrives on not being guarded as the 5th option in a lethal lineup.

[Chinook]

There is a flawed assumption behind this whole thread: that the Spurs would have used the #30 on Green if they kept the pick. Nothing could be further from the truth, and all you have to do is examine his role in the 2016 Finals loss to see why. He's an out of control punk who thrives on not being guarded as the 5th option in a lethal lineup.

No. That's is not an "assumption" of this thread. That is the locked-into scenario created by the hypothetical. The same way that Jefferson not being traded or amnestied for the three years was even though he very likely would've been moved at some point. You're correct that the Spurs could've totally drafted someone else. Maybe Ezeli, maybe Crowder or Barton or maybe a stash like Kostas (hell, maybe they talk LJC into entering the draft so they could stash in a year early). But that is not the hypothetical. It's not "Was this trade good or bad?" It's "Would this particular scenario be more favorable than the status quo?"

[Spurtacular]

You don't really understand the NBA at all, do you? There are trades that are not about player value, but money. Spurs saved almost exactly $11M on that trade, for a very late first rounder.

Someone already more/less made this reply w/o being an asswipe and I said okay, cool. Check it. I understand the various parameters. This part of the deal had not been presented in the OP.

[exstatic]

Someone already more/less made this reply w/o being an asswipe....
They must not have posted to ST for very long.

[Spurtacular]

They must not have posted to ST for very long.



The Spurs didn't trade a first to get Jax. They traded a first for cap flexibility. 1 offseason of Jax for 2 offseasons of Jefferson.

Not having RJ also probably helped provide more cash in resigning Danny, who was not a full Bird FA yet.

I didn't press him on the numbers. I got the point. The OP should've included the numbers, frankly (if he knew of em), imo. Though, that's not a criticism if he wasn't aware. Go with what you got. It's a message board; I'm fine with people filling in the details.

[Chinook]

I didn't press him on the numbers. I got the point. The OP should've included the numbers, frankly (if he knew of em), imo. Though, that's not a criticism if he wasn't aware. Go with what you got. It's a message board; I'm fine with people filling in the details.

Trading RJ for Jack didn't save the Spurs money in 2012-2013, so no, it didn't help in re-signing Green. The Spurs had a good cap in 2013-2014, so the saved cash wasn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Obviously, though, that is in hindsight. Had Pop known that he was about to stumble into the players he needed to complete this championship puzzle through giving time to guys on min contracts and a post-lotto pick, he might've played the whole Jack/RJ thing a bit differently