Hypothetical 2012 Trade Deadline: Is Draymond Green Worth Three Years of RJ?

[Chinook]

So it's the last month before the pre-season kicks off, so I thought it made sense to have a random thread to pass the time. I'm sure this has been asked multiple times within threads, but I just wanted to set up a poll here.

To summarize, here's what actually happened:

At the trade deadline in 2012, the Spurs traded Richard Jefferson and their first-rounder that season (30th overall) for Stephen Jackson. The Spurs made three consecutive runs deep into the post-season during the remainder of Jefferson's contract, though Jackson pretty much just lasted a year before he got cut. The Warriors used that pick on Festus Ezeli and kept Jefferson, who bricked two FTs to help the Spurs come back in Game One of the 2013 WCSFs. The eventually traded away four picks (including two unprotected first-rounders) to Utah in order to get rid of Jefferson's and Biedrins' contracts. Jefferson ended up becoming a decent role-player after the trade, eventually becoming a valuable member of the 2016 Cavs le team.

So knowing how everything turned out, here's the hypothetical:

The Spurs decide against making the trade, keeping Jefferson and their pick. They bench RJ for Kawhi just as they did with Jackson. They use their pick on Draymond Green instead. Jefferson opts into his deal and is not traded or amnestied through the 2013-2014 season. Anderson and LJC are both still drafted. They find a way to keep Splitter in 2013, but they don't sign Beli or Ayres. Everything from 2014 onwards remains the same.

Would you support that change?

On one hand, you keep a player who was almost a dark cloud hanging over the team. RJ being on the roster might've prevented the deep runs, and that last le was the sweetest. Draymond may not have been a great player after being relegated to the fifth big spot for years, and he's also a really not a Spur and may have forced his way off the team anyway. And it's not like Green and the Warriors have more les than the Spurs have over the intervening five seasons. SA is GS' biggest obstacle once again, and they have a future HoFer in Pau who could help them get another ring.

But on the other hand, it's Draymond ing Green. The Spurs would be rolling into this season with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best team in the league by a long shot. They would still be under the tax this upcoming season. As far as history goes, the Jefferson who showed up in Utah and Dallas and definitely Cleveland would've been a great addition to the bench. He and Manu had great chemistry, and he learned to be a serviceable three-and-D player. If Pop were able to get that RJ to show up from 2012-2014, the Spurs might've been even better.

I think I'd go with the former. There aren't many things I'd trade 2014 for, and Draymond isn't one of them. Dude's a huge question mark despite his talent. There's no guarantee that he'd mesh with the team or be as good, and as we saw last season, being the best team on paper doesn't win LOBs. I'll take a trophy and a 7/10 future over just a 9/10 future any day.

[apalisoc_9]

Absolutely not.

The hypothetical question assumes a few things that was a major result of that three year run. As bad as Jackson was in the Lockeroom, he was a willing bench player.. Jefferson was a more problematic player to manage considering his contract and his "star" reputation. IIRC, Kawhi didn't start playing at a first team rookie level pre-Jan when it was starting to get obvious that Jefferson was just not working out. He made a major post all-star for ALL NBA Rookie. It would have delayed Leonard's development and we would have been the definition of "pretender". Assuming Leonard improves to an All-star level player despite Jefferson, Green was more than likely going to be the guy to sacrifice developmental minutes..it would have been a dominos effect...Aldridge would be in portland or phoenix.

The Aftermath, We would have had Draymond Green playing without a role considering our Big Rotations from 2011-2014. We would have tried making a major trade from 2013-2015..Duncan retiring a couple years earlier.

Imo, this would be the starting lineup.

Parker, Player A ( Trade player), Leonard, Diaw, ( Traded Player)

Would be a completely different team.

from 2011 to 2016..0 tles, with Lebron forming a scary team in the East, Durant might have stayed and won a championship, Golden State would still have Curry and Thompson and Bogut...

[ElNono]

Agree I would stick with what the Spurs did. But, I'll add that Raymond is overrrated, it's like being happy with a Parker, Green, Leonard, Dejuan Blair, Aldrige lineup, tbh... no, I much rather roll with Pau/Duncan, IMO...

The Spurs were fortunate to ride Tiago's 2 healthy seasons to two NBA Finals also, but it was clear it was time to move on there too.

RJ just wouldn't work with the Spurs, big role or small role... it's also debatable the Spurs could've landed Aldrige without a LOBT under their arms, and for that to happen you needed that albatross contract from RJ and eventually Jax gone from the books.

[Mikeanaro]

Leave Raymond alone.

[Spurtacular]

Spurs should've known firsthand that there was a reason the Warriors wanted to trade Captain Jack. Even then, trading a first for a past prime guy shooting 37.4 FG? WTF, tbh.

[daslicer]

Draymond is overrated. Pop would have waived him once he couldn't "Get over himself".

[spurs10]

I voted for the status quo but was most interested in the line about a 'Parker, Green, Kawhi, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best in the league by a long shot.' My thought is that is a of team indeed. However it made me think of what we have- Parker, Green, Kawhi, LMA, and Pau. He's older, but as you say Pau is a HOF'er. We won't be anyones favorite, but fundamentals have beat flash in the past. This isn't to say GSW doesn't have substance, but we have the underdog thing and a lot of championship experience going for us.

[szkorhetz]

[Kawhitstorm]

I voted for the status quo but was most interested in the line about a 'Parker, Green, Kawhi, Green, Aldridge lineup. That's the best in the league by a long shot.' .

Gaymond ain't shyt unless he's playing 4-on-5 & that won't happen w/ Porker running the offense.

[Robz4000]

no. Getting rid of was one of the happiest days of my sports fandom.

[SAGirl]

It's easy for me to choose 1 bc I didn't live through the Jefferson years as a fan, so I am indifferent to him and maybe in blissfully ignorance I think he could have helped anyways bc SJAX was not determinant to have and turned out cancerous himself too. I'd rather have any of the 2 and a top player that can always be traded. We dislike Draymond bc he's in another team but he might have been a great Spur. Ezeli might have played well and there was also Chandler Parsons.

But again since I didn't live through the Jefferson years my opinion on this is .

[SAGirl]

Gaymond ain't shyt unless he's playing 4-on-5 & that won't happen w/ Porker running the offense.

A valid point.

[Chinook]

Absolutely not.

The hypothetical question assumes a few things that was a major result of that three year run. As bad as Jackson was in the Lockeroom, he was a willing bench player.. Jefferson was a more problematic player to manage considering his contract and his "star" reputation. IIRC, Kawhi didn't start playing at a first team rookie level pre-Jan when it was starting to get obvious that Jefferson was just not working out. He made a major post all-star for ALL NBA Rookie. It would have delayed Leonard's development and we would have been the definition of "pretender". Assuming Leonard improves to an All-star level player despite Jefferson, Green was more than likely going to be the guy to sacrifice developmental minutes..it would have been a dominos effect...Aldridge would be in portland or phoenix.

The Aftermath, We would have had Draymond Green playing without a role considering our Big Rotations from 2011-2014. We would have tried making a major trade from 2013-2015..Duncan retiring a couple years earlier.

Imo, this would be the starting lineup.

Parker, Player A ( Trade player), Leonard, Diaw, ( Traded Player)

Would be a completely different team.

from 2011 to 2016..0 tles, with Lebron forming a scary team in the East, Durant might have stayed and won a championship, Golden State would still have Curry and Thompson and Bogut...

Green was already a starter by the time Jefferson got traded. I doubt he would've lost minutes if Pop decided to bench Jefferson. Jack played 24mpg as a Spur that year, so it seems like there were enough minutes for everyone.

As far as the cascade, I don't disagree that things could have turned out differently than the hypothetical, but the thread straight-up says LMA still signs along with all of the roster moves after 2014. The only players who aren't Spurs are Jack, Beli and Ayres. It's also possible the Spurs would've gone with a completely different player at 30 like Kostas Papanikilaou, which would make this choice even easier. But that's a different thread.

You make a decent point about the Warriors having the Splash Bros., Durant and Bogut. Then again, you don't know what they'd do with Jack on the roster anyhow. Might've been good enough to dissuade Lacob from firing Jackson.

[SAGirl]

Green was already a starter by the time Jefferson got traded. I doubt he would've lost minutes if Pop decided to bench Jefferson. Jack played 24mpg as a Spur that year, so it seems like there were enough minutes for everyone.

As far as the cascade, I don't disagree that things could have turned out differently than the hypothetical, but the thread straight-up says LMA still signs along with all of the roster moves after 2014. The only players who aren't Spurs are Jack, Beli and Ayres. It's also possible the Spurs would've gone with a completely different player at 30 like Kostas Papanikilaou, which would make this choice even easier. But that's a different thread.

You make a decent point about the Warriors having the Splash Bros., Durant and Bogut. Then again, you don't know what they'd do with Jack on the roster anyhow. Might've been good enough to dissuade Lacob from firing Jackson.

Not fan if Beli and Jeff Ayers TBH and SJAX to me was about the same as Jefferson fir what the Spurs needed. Heck in my scenario they don't necessarily draft Raymond, Parsons was a nice choice and we switch Parsons for Belinelli heck! Who knows what that team could have accomplished. Parsons was impactful from his first season.

Considering Pop and his dilemma on WTH he's doing with Anderson I think he would have wasted Raymond. He really didn't shoot the 3 well initially and I am sure Pop would not have figured Raymond out. Lots of dleague for Raymond initially but the dude is a compe or and by his second season I guess hypothetically he would have been kicking asses.

Still think a scenario that leaves the Spurs with a talented youngster in 2012 is a good spot to be.

[Dex]

no. Getting rid of was one of the happiest days of my sports fandom.

I still remember the hype...first finding out that was gone and Jax was coming back, then the Spurs snagging BoBo. It was like seeing the sun after 40 days of rain, and it caused a brief renaissance of SpursTalk.

The fact that the Spurs immediately followed that with a WCF appearance (which was tragically derailed), 2 straight Finals, and a ring was no small coincidence.

[Dex]

Also as OP noted, it's hard to say if Green would have developed into the player he is on the Spurs. , it's hard to say if Draymond could even be the player he is today on any other team...something tells me his skill set would look a lot less flashy without Kerr's pace & space system and two of the best shooters in the league surrounding him. Lance Stephenson once led the league in triple-doubles in a Pacer system that suited his game, and now he can't even sniff a roster spot in the NBA.

Pau may be older, but he is also champion-tested and fills a much needed hole for the Spurs now that Duncan is gone.

[cjw]

Spurs should've known firsthand that there was a reason the Warriors wanted to trade Captain Jack. Even then, trading a first for a past prime guy shooting 37.4 FG? WTF, tbh.

The Spurs didn't trade a first to get Jax. They traded a first for cap flexibility. 1 offseason of Jax for 2 offseasons of Jefferson.

Not having RJ also probably helped provide more cash in resigning Danny, who was not a full Bird FA yet.

[gambit1990]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter

you typed all that out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

you gave me for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago

[dabom]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter

you typed all that out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

you gave me for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago

I've been meaning to say this is a thread. Dude can't even predict the near future roster moves for the Spurs if God told him.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

I seriously doubt the spurs would have drafted Draymond. So I don't think any of it really matters.

[spurraider21]

i dont with a championship

[Spurtacular]

The Spurs didn't trade a first to get Jax. They traded a first for cap flexibility. 1 offseason of Jax for 2 offseasons of Jefferson.

Not having RJ also probably helped provide more cash in resigning Danny, who was not a full Bird FA yet.

Gonna take your word for it. That's reasonable it sounds.

[Chinook]

wow, what a stupid thread. can't believe you had that much to type out on such an irrelevant matter

you typed all that out only to say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

you gave me for bumping the 2016 trade deadline thread... and here you are making a thread about a hypothetical for a trade deadline four years ago

I don't think I've ever seen another poster hitch their wagon to such a failure of a trade idea as you have. I bet you still watch HD DVDs as well. Let it go, man.

[Leetonidas]

Tough call honestly but considering how things turned out and the Spurs getting a chip out of it I think I would just keep things as they were. No telling how Green would be in another scenario tbh and he was trash his first couple seasons

[Chinook]

I know the thread le and poll question don't help, but the talk about Draymond really overshadows what I consider to be the more interesting question: What would three more years of RJ mean for the Spurs?

I think it's possible that he was going to be benched had he stayed. Kawhi was just too good. Would he have pouted and become a more obvious cancer (many felt he was dragging the team down, but I don't think I heard of him having any at ude issues)? People who've been watching the Spurs for more than a couple of years might remember this "incident" between RJ and Duncan:



I think it was mostly in jest, but obviously, if Tim actually did have beef with Jefferson for whatever reason, he had to go. The team depended so much on chemistry for their Finals runs that it just doesn't seem worth the risk to have him on the team.

Or would he've become Dallas/Cleveland Jefferson if given a bit more time? We saw flashes of that RJ during his time with the Spurs. He made some nice defensive games (shutting down David West as a small-ball four) and some games where he carried the team from three for stretches. And again, his ability to slash and finish made all the sense in the world with Neal/Mills, Manu Diaw/Bonner and Splitter. On paper, that's a huge upgrade over Jack and Beli.

Did RJ need to be released and then salary-dumped in order for the change to sink in? Did the team need the fire that Jack provided to take their game to the next level? Was the trade the only way Pop was going to figure out his wing rotation? There's a lot to think about before you get into the possibility of Dray and Kawhi being locked into long-term deals along with LMA and Green.

If 2014 weren't so damned special, I'd be on the other side of this, I think. But this is worth three "superteam" rings: