Rank our backcourt rotation compared to the rest of the league.

[midnightpulp]

Parker: shows up once every 3 or 4 games. Lost about 10 steps.

Danny "D-League" Green: Highly overrated per RPM (which uses Bayesian inference, so we can basically discount it). Great defender, but his offensive ineptitude doesn't offset his defensive contributions. He'd be more at home in the early 00s "Grit and Grind" era.

Patty House: Great shooter, but massively undersized at 5'10" (he ain't 6 feet). Not a true PG. Still a nice weapon off the bench.

Manu Ginobili: 60 years old.

Jonathan Simmons: Super athletic, but still very rough.

The usual suspects will probably blame Pau and/or LMA, since aside from Parker, there's a lot of sentimental "favorites" in this group, but your frontline can't flourish without solid and consistent backcourt scoring, which the Spurs lack in spades.

Same old story. Back to the "coshitty" model to produce our backcourt scoring. Didn't work last season, and it won't work this season. I was hoping our size upfront would be enough to bully smallball teams, but if the backcourt isn't doing shit, LMA/Kawhi/Pau will just get swarmed to death.

[Robz4000]

Bottom five unfortunately, but Pop won't do anything about it.

[midnightpulp]

Bottom five unfortunately, but Pop won't do anything about it.

I don't know who's out there to fix the problem. Or which pieces we can conceivably trade.

[Robz4000]

I don't know who's out there to fix the problem. Or which pieces we can conceivably trade.

They might have to move one of Gasol or LMA. They had the money to fix it this past offseason but instead gave a combined $30mil to Gasol and Manu.

[Darius Bieber]

Dead last

[dabom]

Coming from the guy who said Porker should be our "Turd Option". :lol

[SuperCam]

15 million for a washed up backup guard :lol

[Spurs_619]

worst by far tbh..

[bklynspursfan]

Ah. After a tough loss, here come these threads lol

[DeRozan m8]

Trash/10

[midnightpulp]

Coming from the guy who said Porker should be our "Turd Option". :lol

I was right. He was the 3rd best scorer against OKC, while Patty House was averaging something like 4 points and shooting .250 from 3.

New season is new season, though. ALL our backcourt sucks. There's no 3rd option among these fucks.

[DarrinS]

...

[midnightpulp]

Ah. After a tough loss, here come these threads lol

This issue goes back to last season.

[timtonymanu]

Ah. After a tough loss, here come these threads lol

Mid's not wrong though. You see how awful the Spurs are when Parker doesn't have it going. A much better team can still expose our lack of a good backcourt.

[dabom]

I was right. He was the 3rd best scorer against OKC, while Patty House was averaging something like 4 points and shooting .250 from 3.

New season is new season, though. ALL our backcourt sucks. There's no 3rd option among these fucks.

And we lost. Proved you wrong then. :lmao

Should have let patty shoot more. :lmao

[DeRozan m8]

4 points combined from Danny and Parker, in 52 mins.

Complete garbage.

[midnightpulp]

And we lost. Proved you wrong then. :lmao

Should have let patty shoot more. :lmao

He had a game-winning shot opportunity in game 2 and predictably clanked it. He's real good at draining 3s in garbage time, though.

[bklynspursfan]

Mid's not wrong though. You see how awful the Spurs are when Parker doesn't have it going. A much better team can still expose our lack of a good backcourt.

Right, but I haven't seen 1 of these since we went on a winning streak. Frankly, they've played well enough to win 9 straiget.

But people are so quick to make threads pointing out flaws after each loss. It's like clockwork. It's a long freaking season

[dabom]

He had a game-winning shot opportunity in game 2 and predictably clanked it. He's real good at draining 3s in garbage time, though.

Look. You wasted a whole year, and the Playoffs proved that Porker as the Turd Option was a lose scenario. Eat shit faggot. :lmao

Stay losing. :lmao

[ElNono]

We should have one of these for games on the road vs games at home...

[apalisoc_9]

Good thread. This has been an ongping issue since last year but Popvich and The Crew decided replacing Tim was a bigger issue. They're bottom 5.

Another problem is that Pop is insisitant on running the same offense that heavily relies on a bottom 5 backourt. Which leads to some of the easiest buckets for opppsing teams specially when Ginobili is throwing the ball in the stands.

Not even going to bother with Porker who just lile today and last year was the biggest culprit for the spurs slpw start offense.

When Simmons is like your best backcpurt player in a game like this...you're going to struggle.

[midnightpulp]

They might have to move one of Gasol or LMA. They had the money to fix it this past offseason but instead gave a combined $30mil to Gasol and Manu.

Gasol was about the best Duncan clone we could ask for. That signing was a no brainer. Manu should've probably been released.

[dabom]

Good thread. This has been an ongping issue since last year but Popvich and The Crew decided replacing Tim was a bigger issue. They're bottom 5.

Another problem is that Pop is insisitant on running the same offense that heavily relies on a bottom 5 backourt. Which leads to some of the easiest buckets for opppsing teams specially when Ginobili is throwing the ball in the stands.

Not even going to bother with Porker who just lile today and last year was the biggest culprit for the spurs slpw start offense.

When Simmons is like your best backcpurt player in a game like this...you're going to struggle.

It always starts with that fucker. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

They could have actually posted up Aldirdge and Kawhi when tlthe offense was clearly struggling but instead we're running shitty pick and offense with our best player stationed in corner and Aldirdge just out ere waiting for offensive boards.

These are the kind of games when you know from the first quarter the offense isnt clicking...you go to your best guys.

[midnightpulp]

Good thread. This has been an ongping issue since last year but Popvich and The Crew decided replacing Tim was a bigger issue. They're bottom 5.

Another problem is that Pop is insisitant on running the same offense that heavily relies on a bottom 5 backourt. Which leads to some of the easiest buckets for opppsing teams specially when Ginobili is throwing the ball in the stands.

Not even going to bother with Porker who just lile today and last year was the biggest culprit for the spurs slpw start offense.

When Simmons is like your best backcpurt player in a game like this...you're going to struggle.

We needed a Duncan replacement, unfortunately. Manu should've been let go. Parker should've been on the block along with picks. Maybe we get a team to bite.

[Chinook]

RPM is not RAPM. And there are two RAPMs, one uses Bayesian and one doesn't. Green is elite in all of them over multiple years. He's been a great starting two-guard for too many years for this "he's a d-leaguer" take to keep coming up.

But anyway, yes, the Spurs back court is shaky. Everyone happened to look bad at once tonight. That doesn't usually happen. But if they're playing with fire having Tony as their starting PG, they're swimming in lava having him and Manu as the top-two perimeter play-makers.

[apalisoc_9]

RPM is not RAPM. And there are two RAPMs, one uses Bayesian and one doesn't. Green is elite in all of them over multiple years. He's been a great starting two-guard for too many years for this "he's a d-leaguer" take to keep coming up.

But anyway, yes, the Spurs back court is shaky. Everyone happened to look bad at once tonight. That doesn't usually happen. But if they're playing with fire having Tony as their starting PG, they're swimming in lava having him and Manu as the top-two perimeter play-makers.

Yeah they will swim in lava for one game out of 5 against the clippers or the warriors..this guy just doesnt get it. Delusional.

[DPG21920]

While TP is up and down and he's shown much more than Manu and that's with Manu barley playing and getting rest days. Manu has fallen off the cliff to start the year.

[Arcadian]

which uses Bayesian inference, so we can basically discount it

Yeeaaah...about that...turns out bayesian inference is one of the most useful techniques ever invented for inferential statistics and is a driving force behind the "big data" movement in behavioral science generally (along with PCA/ICA)...

[apalisoc_9]

We needed a Duncan replacement, unfortunately. Manu should've been let go. Parker should've been on the block along with picks. Maybe we get a team to bite.

Well we all knew the team was going to be better replacing Manu and Porker but that was never going to happen. Manu thankfully will retire next year and he can get go get his 14 million and just be done with it.

Porker on the other hand...Pop is insistant on making him run the pffense till he's 40.

If patty is asking for 10 million dollars a year next year...I say dobt even bother resigning that nigga..although i heard the spurs have his bird rights.

Anderson sucking so bad this year when the team clearly expected him to be a part of the bench has also really ruined this team's potential.

Fringe contender at best.

[DarrinS]

While TP is up and down and he's shown much more than Manu and that's with Manu barley playing and getting rest days. Manu has fallen off the cliff to start the year.

Meh, they both look close to done to me.

[midnightpulp]

RPM is not RAPM. And there are two RAPMs, one uses Bayesian and one doesn't. Green is elite in all of them over multiple years. He's been a great starting two-guard for too many years for this "he's a d-leaguer" take to keep coming up.

But anyway, yes, the Spurs back court is shaky. Everyone happened to look bad at once tonight. That doesn't usually happen. But if they're playing with fire having Tony as their starting PG, they're swimming in lava having him and Manu as the top-two perimeter play-makers.

Danny fanboy on cue :lol

I don't get the fascination. He's a marginally better Bruce Bowen in an era where Bruce Bowen type players are becoming obsolete. 3 and D players are too one dimensional offensively for their defense to overcome their offensive deficiencies and predictability.

[TheDoctor]

:pop: - It doesn't matter, I'll start Fathead in Playoffs 4th quarters anyway.

[Chinook]

Yeah they will swim in lava for one game out of 5 against the clippers or the warriors..this guy just doesnt get it. Delusional.

Who are you talking about?

[spursistan]

They have played their cards now..Need to go look in the scrap heap for third string PGs: Udrih, Chalmers whatever flotsam playmakers available..

[HarlemHeat37]

Green is a great player by any on/off metric, tbh, not just rpm or rapm..he's been a key starter on 2 Finals teams and has excelled in this era of basketball..

The Cavs(JR Smith), Raptors(Carroll), Warriors(Barnes) and Thunder(Roberson) all started players with the same limitations, last year, yet they were all more successful than the Spurs..

Unfortunately, you can't win in today's NBA without a lead playmaking guard..it's the reason I haven't bought the Spurs as a contender the past 2 years, despite their record..in a league where the other contenders and fringe challengers have Irving, Curry, Thomas, Paul, Lowry, etc, the Spurs are still relying on 1000-year old Parker..

[dabom]

Danny fanboy on cue :lol

I don't get the fascination. He's a marginally better Bruce Bowen in an era where Bruce Bowen type players are becoming obsolete. 3 and D players are too one dimensional offensively for their defense to overcome their offensive deficiencies and predictability.

I'll let you duke it out with chinook. Some lightweight puccy. :corn:

[timtonymanu]

Danny fanboy on cue :lol

I don't get the fascination. He's a marginally better Bruce Bowen in an era where Bruce Bowen type players are becoming obsolete. 3 and D players are too one dimensional offensively for their defense to overcome their offensive deficiencies and predictability.

He's still a very good player. But he shouldn't have to be the team's best guard by default. If the Spurs just had an all star PG, Danny's shortcomings would be overcome.

[dabom]

Green is a great player by any on/off metric, tbh, not just rpm or rapm..he's been a key starter on 2 Finals teams and has excelled in this era of basketball..

The Cavs(JR Smith), Raptors(Carroll), Warriors(Barnes) and Thunder(Roberson) all started players with the same limitations, last year, yet they were all more successful than the Spurs..

Unfortunately, you can't win in today's NBA without a lead playmaking guard..it's the reason I haven't bought the Spurs as a contender the past 2 years, despite their record..in a league where the other contenders and fringe challengers have Irving, Curry, Thomas, Paul, Lowry, etc, the Spurs are still relying on 1000-year old Parker..

Too bad he is icy hot. Like the definition of super role player. :lol

Now if he was consistent, Spurs would actually be a great team.

[Chinook]

Danny fanboy on cue :lol

You're the one whipping out antiquated takes. There's a reason why you had to wait a month before coming with this thread. It's the typical "wait until the first second where you can claim victory then wallow in self-praise" thread.

[HarlemHeat37]

This team has also been generally unlikable, too, since adding Aldridge..he's a career loser with a cancerous style of play..

It was exacerbated this off-season by adding a known diva and pussy like Pau, sadly..very unlikable team, which is sad, considering how much fun the Spurs were in 2012-2014..

[GSH]

Simmons is really working on using his penetration to get open shots for other guys. Sometimes too much, but I can at least see that he's doing something to expand his game. If the rest of those guys were playing well, I'd be all for what Simmons is doing. The fact that we are seriously worried about relying on him says a lot.

[Robz4000]

Gasol was about the best Duncan clone we could ask for. That signing was a no brainer. Manu should've probably been released.

Gasol is redundant with LMA on the roster. Spurs really should've tried for a cheaper defensive big and went after a playmaking guard like Fornier or Clarkson.

[HarlemHeat37]

Too bad he is icy hot. Like the definition of super role player. :lol

Now if he was consistent, Spurs would actually be a great team.

There's limited consistency with role players..that's part of the reason they have limited roles on a team..it's the same case with every team..

Teams generally go as far as their stars take them in the NBA..

[GSH]

There's limited consistency with role players..that's part of the reason they have limited roles..

Teams generally go as far as their stars take them in the NBA..

[Chinook]

Gasol is redundant with LMA on the roster. Spurs really should've tried for a cheaper defensive big and went after a playmaking guard like Fornier or Clarkson.

It's been hammered to death, but the Spurs realistically had about $23-24 Million in cap space this summer. It's sad that with that cap situation, only Lee, Dedmon and Bertans were good acquisitions (especially since none of them had to count against the cap at all).

[dabom]

There's limited consistency with role players..that's part of the reason they have limited roles on a team..it's the same case with every team..

Teams generally go as far as their stars take them in the NBA..

That's the knock on him. Even though he rates positive. He still actually hurts the team and a lot of cases.

[raybies]

Parker locked up for another year and Ginobili making 14 million this year. It's not Paus and Manus you should be combining its Parkers and Manus. Now that's about 30 mill this year. Green is making ten, he's fine. Simmons is making less than a mill, he's fine. Patty is making around three, he's fine. The decline of the big 3 was always gonna be less than glorious but they earned their keep. It just sucks is all. 30 mill could buy another superstar tbh.

[Benoit]

I feel bad for Parker

He carried the spurs on his back for 10 years while Jim took the credit

The Autist looks lost without Parker holding his hand LMFAO

[ElNono]

Both Manu and Tony have similarly played poorly so far, tbh... just inconsistent, some games very good, some games bad...

I think it's worthwhile pointing out their usage is down in both cases to the lowest it's been since their respective rookie seasons. It's not 'low' overall (taking Murray out due to small sample, they rank #4 and #5), but this is Kawhi's and LMA's team now.

[Robz4000]

It's been hammered to death, but the Spurs realistically had about $23-24 Million in cap space this summer. It's sad that with that cap situation, only Lee, Dedmon and Bertans were good acquisitions (especially since none of them had to count against the cap at all).

Just comes back to Pop not giving a shit. Spurs need to move on at this point.

[HarlemHeat37]

That's the knock on him. Even though he rates positive. He still actually hurts the team and a lot of cases.

Who are the consistent role players in the NBA, iyo?

If Green shot well every game, the Spurs still wouldn't have a playmaking guard..he's never going to be one..if he was, he would have never been a Spur..

[SpursforSix]

They might have to move one of Gasol or LMA. They had the money to fix it this past offseason but instead gave a combined $30mil to Gasol and Manu.

Glass half empty.

They are only having to pay Parker half that. Glass half full.

[apalisoc_9]

I really dont think getting Pau was inportant at all. If you remove him now, the spurs will still be able to trot out a competent big rotation. And still have 15 million to throw at Guards.

But no..
Pop is so keen on Relying on A 1000000 year old Point Guard and SG to do the Playmaking..a genuis idea since Porker was never a playmaker ever in his career....

You could see it from the way he runs the pick and roll...He only knows how to make one pass in that scenario..and its the Pop. :lmao

In comparison, guards wh can score and playmake can make a roll pass, cross pass, and find open players on cuts and off screens.

They're trying to make a 500000 year old non-playmaker into a playmaker. :lol

[SpurPadre]

He's still a very good player. But he shouldn't have to be the team's best guard by default. If the Spurs just had an all star PG, Danny's shortcomings would be overcome.

I love LDN but let's face it, he's great for us because of the system. He is legitimately sound on defense (though his perimeter D can be shaky at times) and he gets to his spots on offense. But it wouldn't hurt to explore moving beyond a system guard. I mean look at how Simmons' athleticism and dynamic play came in handy against the Dubs. Of course, Danny is miles better than Simmons but my point is, we need more explosiveness from our backcourt in today's game. Danny is great in the role he plays but couldn't another player out there take that spot and take it another level? It's worth exploring.

[midnightpulp]

Yeeaaah...about that...turns out bayesian inference is one of the most useful techniques ever invented for inferential statistics and is a driving force behind the "big data" movement in behavioral science generally (along with PCA/ICA)...

Using Bayesian methods in this context is flawed because there's nothing to "speculate" about since basketball statistics are discreet events that are completely transparent (i.e. it's a fact when Danny Green scores 10 points on 50%).

Bayesian methods are used to analyze probabilities from a sample data set, i.e. polling 1000 people about their ice cream preference and then attempting, through inference, to predict the ice cream preferences of a much larger population size. It's why Bayesian inference is used a lot in marketing.

I have no idea why you would apply it to a basketball (or any sport) statistic. There's nothing to "infer." Sports stats are "hard" facts.

[DPG21920]

People dogging Danny are the worst kind of ST's. Don't bring that ish my way tbh..

[dabom]

Who are the consistent role players in the NBA, iyo?

If Green shot well every game, the Spurs still wouldn't have a playmaking guard..he's never going to be one..if he was, he would have never been a Spur..

I'm saying if his highs and lows were smaller. Not if he was a "consistent 50%" shooter.

[Chinook]

Who are the consistent role players in the NBA, iyo?

If Green shot well every game, the Spurs still wouldn't have a playmaking guard..he's never going to be one..if he was, he would have never been a Spur..

Green's almost never a negative. He's either a slight positive or a huge positive. For the third-highest paid guard in the rotation and the sixth-highest paid player overall, he's fine. The issue is that there are two or three players ahead of him that aren't earning their keep. Having your third-best player make so little should be a boon, but the Spurs took that potential windfall and threw it down the drain on loyalty contracts.

[dabom]

Hello.

[midnightpulp]

Gasol is redundant with LMA on the roster. Spurs really should've tried for a cheaper defensive big and went after a playmaking guard like Fornier or Clarkson.

Who was out there, though?

Mozgoof got more money than Gasol. For a decent big today, you have to pay.

[Robz4000]

People dogging Danny are the worst kind of ST's. Don't bring that ish my way tbh..

This. LDN has proven his worth time and time again.

[raybies]

I really dont think getting Pau was inportant at all. If you remove him now, the spurs will still be able to trot out a competent big rotation. And still have 15 million to throw at Guards.

But no..
Pop is so keen on Relying on A 1000000 (tel:1000000) year old Point Guard and SG to do the Playmaking..a genuis idea since Porker was never a playmaker ever in his career....

You could see it from the way he runs the pick and roll...He only knows how to make one pass in that scenario..and its the Pop. :lmao

In comparison, guards wh can score and playmake can make a roll pass, cross pass, and find open players on cuts and off screens.

They're trying to make a 500000 year old non-playmaker into a playmaker. :lol
I really want a play Murray alternate as sad as that may sound. I wish he was ready.

[dabom]

Who are the consistent role players in the NBA, iyo?

If Green shot well every game, the Spurs still wouldn't have a playmaking guard..he's never going to be one..if he was, he would have never been a Spur..

I'm talking about smaller difference better highs and lows. Not that we need a superstar role player.

[HarlemHeat37]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..

[SpurPadre]

People dogging Danny are the worst kind of ST's. Don't bring that ish my way tbh..

Who's dogging him? I'm not.

[GSH]

Yeeaaah...about that...turns out bayesian inference is one of the most useful techniques ever invented for inferential statistics and is a driving force behind the "big data" movement in behavioral science generally (along with PCA/ICA)...


Using Bayesian methods in this context is flawed because there's nothing to "speculate" about since basketball statistics are discreet events that are completely transparent (i.e. it's a fact when Danny Green scores 10 points on 50%).

Bayesian methods are used to analyze probabilities from a sample data set, i.e. polling 1000 people about their ice cream preference and then attempting, through inference, to predict the ice cream preferences of a much larger population size. It's why Bayesian inference is used a lot in marketing.

I have no idea why you would apply it to a basketball (or any sport) statistic. There's nothing to "infer." Sports stats are "hard" facts.


I don't believe it. I mean... I'm reading it. But I don't fucking believe it's really happening. This is why we can't have nice things.

And honestly, it's the reason there are only two female posters here. I know SAGirl says it's the sexual innuendos. But nooo.

[timtonymanu]

I love LDN but let's face it, he's great for us because of the system. He is legitimately sound on defense (though his perimeter D can be shaky at times) and he gets to his spots on offense. But it wouldn't hurt to explore moving beyond a system guard. I mean look at how Simmons' athleticism and dynamic play came in handy against the Dubs. Of course, Danny is miles better than Simmons but my point is, we need more explosiveness from our backcourt in today's game. Danny is great in the role he plays but couldn't another player out there take that spot and take it another level? It's worth exploring.

Danny isn't the problem though. You aren't going to find players like him easily, especially for the price he's playing. The team messed up giving Parker an extension and expecting Manu to carry the bench at 39 years old. Danny also does stuff that doesn't show up on the box score (his transition defense, rim protection). It's on the other guys to play up to their contracts. Frankly, I would Aldridge for a guard before Danny Green.

[Robz4000]

Who was out there, though?

Mozgoof got more money than Gasol. For a decent big today, you have to pay.

Didn't have to be a name; just a mobile big that had the tools ala Dedmon. Hell, they could've just roll with Bertans as the back-up 4 or started him alongside LMA. Then they have $15mil+ to get a guard.

[SpurPadre]

Danny isn't the problem though. You aren't going to find players like him easily, especially for the price he's playing. The team messed up giving Parker an extension and expecting Manu to carry the bench at 39 years old. Danny also does stuff that doesn't show up on the box score (his transition defense, rim protection). It's on the other guys to play up to their contracts. Frankly, I would Aldridge for a guard before Danny Green.

Danny isn't a problem but as the adage goes, if you want an omelette, you have to break some eggs. You don't get anything for free these days outside of a Lebron team or Dubs team.

[apalisoc_9]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..
So we have to trade the second best spur because we have to be loyal to Parker despite Porker being one of the worst guards in the league?

That really hurts :cry

My spurs getting dragged down :cry

[Robz4000]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..

Trading Green is an awful idea. He fits great next to Kawhi, isn't a diva, and he gave the team a steep discount to stay; it'd look bad to the rest of the league.

[GSH]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..


By "piece" you're talking about for the future, right? Because they aren't likely to get anyone currently better than Parker that will match his salary. So the idea of doing a honest re-build is starting to get some traction?

I've been a Danny fan from the first preseason he was here. But I agree with you that this is probably the right time to move him, if they get the right price. But doing that is throwing in the towel on this group. They might as well go ahead and try to find a deal for LMA or Pau. No, they SHOULD deal one of them for value, if they trade Green. I know you'd like to see it be LMA. I didn't pull any punches about wishing they would have done it in the offseason this year. I don't know if Danny's shooting revival in the playoffs would have been enough to get full value out of him then, though.

[HarlemHeat37]

Trading Green is an awful idea. He fits great next to Kawhi, isn't a diva, and he gave the team a steep discount to stay; it'd look bad to the rest of the league.

You have to make a move to fix this team, though..they aren't winning a title without backcourt playmakers..

They don't have any assets outside of Green, since it's highly unlikely they would trade Aldridge..nobody is taking Parker, nor would the Spurs ever trade him..Kyle Anderson isn't getting you a real piece in return..

[DPG21920]

Spurs need to look for a team that is willing to give up on a guard because of a logjam or something else. I know they got rid of Gordon to help alleviate their logjam but I wonder if Tyreke Evans might be available?

[SpurPadre]

Trading Green is an awful idea. He fits great next to Kawhi, isn't a diva, and he gave the team a steep discount to stay; it'd look bad to the rest of the league.

It's only awful if you don't think about the potential return Green would net, especially in a package.

[timtonymanu]

I would rather trade the diva that comes into camp out of shape two seasons in a row and has never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs than a proven playoff performer who always plays hard. Hopefully Spurs see it that way too.

[MultiTroll]

Parker locked up for another year and Ginobili making 14 million this year. It's not Paus and Manus you should be combining its Parkers and Manus. Now that's about 30 mill this year.
Why not look at all three?
Porker Pau and Manu extorting 44 million a year.
Who could have been acquired for that?

[Robz4000]

You have to make a move to fix this team, though..they aren't winning a title without backcourt playmakers..

They don't have any assets outside of Green, since it's highly unlikely they would trade Aldridge..nobody is taking Parker, nor would the Spurs ever trade him..Kyle Anderson isn't getting you a real piece in return..

They aren't winning without Green either, so they might as well keep one of their core players that will still be playing at a high level in a few years when the team finally gets rid of the dead weight in Porker/Manu/Pop.

[Chinook]

Trading Green is an awful idea. He fits great next to Kawhi, isn't a diva, and he gave the team a steep discount to stay; it'd look bad to the rest of the league.

Of course it's an awful idea. He's one of the most "Spur" Spurs. I think he'd be just fine Haslaming it for the rest of his career if the Spurs' window closes. The Spurs need to make whatever trade they can that gets them someone to close with a Green/Leonard/LMA core. Then they can fill that final big spot with Lee, Dedmon or Bertans.

[RD2191]

I would rather trade the diva that comes into camp out of shape two seasons in a row and has never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs than a proven playoff performer who always plays hard. Hopefully Spurs see it that way too.
Tbh

[GSH]

Danny isn't the problem though. You aren't going to find players like him easily, especially for the price he's playing. The team messed up giving Parker an extension and expecting Manu to carry the bench at 39 years old. Danny also does stuff that doesn't show up on the box score (his transition defense, rim protection). It's on the other guys to play up to their contracts. Frankly, I would Aldridge for a guard before Danny Green.


Pop has always placed a lot of value on young players who improve year-on-year. He's talked about it in any number of interviews. Danny hasn't improved in at least the last two seasons. At this point, I think we can pretty much get used to the idea that he can't drive and score. If the Spurs see the writing on the wall for this season, Harlem is right about the value of trading Danny while his stock is high.

[Chinook]

It's only awful if you don't think about the potential return Green would net, especially in a package.

If you talk to other fans, it's not that high. The latest RealGM Green trade was Danny, Patty and an lightly protected first for Dragic. And Miami fans thought it wasn't enough.

[Robz4000]

It's only awful if you don't think about the potential return Green would net, especially in a package.

Green won't bring back a return equal to his worth tbh; his contract is too small, not to mention he'd only interest playoff teams/potential playoff teams that wouldn't be willing to send back one of their role players with value.

[Kawhitstorm]

Simmons is really working on using his penetration to get open shots for other guys. Sometimes too much, but I can at least see that he's doing something to expand his game. If the rest of those guys were playing well, I'd be all for what Simmons is doing. The fact that we are seriously worried about relying on him says a lot.

Simmons running the offense::lmao...he makes Lance Stephenson seems like Magic Johnson.

[Kawhitstorm]

If you talk to other fans, it's not that high. The latest RealGM Green trade was Danny, Patty and an lightly protected first for Dragic. And Miami fans thought it wasn't enough.

I don't think they need Danny/Patty when they have Richardson/Johnson.

Maybe Deron Williams could get bought out & Spurs/Rockets could have first dibs to pick him up (if he clears waivers) since he most likely wants to stay close to his hometown (Dallas) ala LMA.

[ElNono]

There's no quick fix here, tbh... if you're gonna put it on one guy, it gotta be Pop... this team goes from largely amazing on the road to lethargic at home. It's not about calling people soft, it's about doing something about it.

You can have bad shooting nights. Tonight was one of those nights. But there's no excuse to coast at home, and most of the loses had a big dose of that.

[Robz4000]

There's no quick fix here, tbh... if you're gonna put it on one guy, it gotta be Pop... this team goes from largely amazing on the road to lethargic at home. It's not about calling people soft, it's about doing something about it.

You can have bad shooting nights. Tonight was one of those nights. But there's no excuse to coast at home, and most of the loses had a big dose of that.

Agreed

[midnightpulp]

Danny frustrates me because he's had 5 seasons now to add some semblance of a dribble-drive or inbetween game to his arsenal, but he's still over-reliant on being the same system spot up shooter as he was in 2013.

Even J.J. Redick developed a midrange in between game. Last season, he took 34% of his shots from between 16 feet and 3 point range, and shot .473 from there. J.J. took 52% of his shots from 2 point range in total.

D-League took 38% of his shots from 2 point range in total and he shot below 40% from every 2 point distance except from 0-3 feet :lol. Shit, Redick even shoots a higher percentage from 0-3 feet than D-League.

Someone will say because Redick plays alongside Chris Paul, but that's yet another excuse. It's never on Danny. It's always some excuse. "LMA is affecting his shot." "He's just limited. A role player. What do you expect?" "Parker this, Parker that."

Every time he catches the ball at the arc, he gets closed out on, and has an ocean of mid-range space to hit a pull up jumper. Again, Redick does this at a great clip, but yet D-League is somehow incapable of adding it to his game. Kawhi added it to his game by his 2nd second season, and he was a terrible shooter coming out of college.

I don't buy it.

But yeah, he plays defense and hit a bunch of 3s against the Heat for 2 games.

[spursistan]

lol at trading Green before two soft pussies bigs with zero equity in the team and a washed up 34yo PG..

Honestly, I would look to move Mills before the trade deadline with his impending FA in this market....

[GSH]

Simmons running the offense::lmao...he makes Lance Stephenson seems like Magic Johnson.


You and Dabom. Both of you make shit up, and then argue about it. Running the offense? I said he's trying to be less of a ball hog, and you read "running the offense"?

Come to think of it, you and Dabom both use those limp-dick emotes all the time. Coincidence?

[Chinook]

It's not about calling people soft, it's about doing something about it.

Fucking amen. And players will eventually tune him out if he keeps trying that line of talk. The dude doesn't seem to make any changes to the offense during the game. The first ATO in-bounds play was to get Kawhi a 16-foot turn-around. I don't know if he ever called plays to get guys threes.

[SpurPadre]

If you talk to other fans, it's not that high. The latest RealGM Green trade was Danny, Patty and an lightly protected first for Dragic. And Miami fans thought it wasn't enough.

Miami's FO hasn't been making the best decisions lately, though so maybe we can replace Patty for Anderson...nah, never mind. Money doesn't work.

[GSH]

If you talk to other fans, it's not that high. The latest RealGM Green trade was Danny, Patty and an lightly protected first for Dragic. And Miami fans thought it wasn't enough.


I'm guessing you did a lot of research of "other fans" for that? Getting your opinions from the same people who were SURE that Hillary was going to win in a landslide, until about 10:00 on election night.


"So, as you can see, Danny's value is really quite limited at present."

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/Gallery/6450/15-annoying-habits-of-college-professors867046813-dec-22-2013-1-600x400.jpg

[midnightpulp]

lol at trading Green before two soft pussies bigs with zero equity in the team and a washed up 34yo PG..

Honestly, I would look to move Mills before the trade deadline with his impending FA in this market....

I don't advocate trading him. We're priced in. And if he gets hot, this team is a different animal, so it's worth rolling the dice.

I just find it funny that he's beyond criticism. He'll do his 5 straight games with 2-6 points on 40% shooting thing, and the blame will somehow fall on LMA or Parker's shoulders.

Yeah, it's kind of a problem when our starting SG isn't a consistent double-digit scorer in the modern league.

[Chinook]

Miami's FO hasn't been making the best decisions lately, though...

I just don't think you'd anything great for him. I think had MKE known what was going to happen to Middleton, they would have given up 10 for Green during the draft. Maybe Chicago would have done something similar with 14. Or SAC with eight. None of the guys they actually picked at those spots would be good enough now, especially since the Spurs wouldn't be able to use that cap space. Plus those teams don't have the same optimism they had during the summer.

Sixers fans have suggested that Green could be the main piece in an Okafor package, but unless it's like Okafor, Covington and Korkmaz for Green, Mills and some other incentive, I don't think it has legs.

[YGWHI]

I don't know who's out there to fix the problem. Or which pieces we can conceivably trade.

If the alternative is just sitting there hoping for the best...

[midnightpulp]

Didn't have to be a name; just a mobile big that had the tools ala Dedmon. Hell, they could've just roll with Bertans as the back-up 4 or started him alongside LMA. Then they have $15mil+ to get a guard.

We needed an additional playmaker in the SL. Kawhi and Parker are just average playmakers, and LMA and Green are non-existent playmakers.

[SAGirl]

I don't know what to tell you. I see what you see.
One of Pau or LMA will need to be traded to get an asset.

I can't see Pop making such a drastic move. It is only the 4th loss of the season after all.

But I am not discounting your point at all Mid. It's just probably what is going on in Pop's head.

[Robz4000]

I don't advocate trading him. We're priced in. And if he gets hot, this team is a different animal, so it's worth rolling the dice.

I just find it funny that he's beyond criticism. He'll do his 5 straight games with 2-6 points on 40% shooting thing, and the blame will somehow fall on LMA or Parker's shoulders.

Yeah, it's kind of problem when our starting SG isn't a consistent double-digit scorer in the modern league.

Beyond criticism? He gets shit on here plenty. However, he isn't the one being paid $16mil or $14mil while being a net negative player. Green can't be the best guard on a championship-calibre team, but every championship team needs a player of similar ilk.

[Chinook]

I'm guessing you did a lot of research of "other fans" for that? Getting your opinions from the same people who were SURE that Hillary was going to win in a landslide, until about 10:00 on election night.


"So, as you can see, Danny's value is really quite limited at present."

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/Gallery/6450/15-annoying-habits-of-college-professors867046813-dec-22-2013-1-600x400.jpg

I guess one of these days, this professor shtick will make sense. Anyway, I literally just cited what I meant by other fans. Some of us do talk to fans on other forums about trade values.

[Robz4000]

We needed an additional playmaker in the SL. Kawhi and Parker are just average playmakers, and LMA and Green are non-existent playmakers.

The SL is fine tbh, as long as they stop sleepwalking to start games. They need a PG who can come in for Parker when he's scrubing it up and do what he used to be able to do to an extent. Darren Collison would be a nice option tbh.

[Chinook]

I don't advocate trading him. We're priced in. And if he gets hot, this team is a different animal, so it's worth rolling the dice.

I just find it funny that he's beyond criticism. He'll do his 5 straight games with 2-6 points on 40% shooting thing, and the blame will somehow fall on LMA or Parker's shoulders.

Yeah, it's kind of a problem when our starting SG isn't a consistent double-digit scorer in the modern league.

Sure didn't stop them from being a contender in 2012-2014. Maybe that's not modern enough for you.

Green's not beyond criticism. He is beyond people repeating the same stale takes about him that they've been saying for six years. He's already proven he's a viable starter on a championship level team, so this "d-league" talk is just lame.

[YGWHI]

There's no quick fix here, tbh... if you're gonna put it on one guy, it gotta be Pop... this team goes from largely amazing on the road to lethargic at home. It's not about calling people soft, it's about doing something about it.

You can have bad shooting nights. Tonight was one of those nights. But there's no excuse to coast at home, and most of the loses had a big dose of that.

:tu

[Chinook]

The SL is fine tbh, as long as they stop sleepwalking to start games. They need a PG who can come in for Parker when he's scrubing it up and do what he used to be able to do to an extent. Darren Collison would be a nice option tbh.

I did hear a Parker/Anderson/first for Collison/Gay trade proposal. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

[Kawhitstorm]

lol at trading Green before two soft pussies bigs with zero equity in the team and a washed up 34yo PG..

Honestly, I would look to move Mills before the trade deadline with his impending FA in this market....

Patty is playing really well, they could sell high & get good value for him. The issue is that his salary is so low that he won't fetch a legit playmaker as an upgrade.

[midnightpulp]

Beyond criticism? He gets shit on here plenty. However, he isn't the one being paid $16mil or $14mil while being a net negative player. Green can't be the best guard on a championship-calibre team, but every championship team needs a player of similar ilk.

In case you missed this post during the page flip:


Danny frustrates me because he's had 5 seasons now to add some semblance of a dribble-drive or inbetween game to his arsenal, but he's still over-reliant on being the same system spot up shooter as he was in 2013.

Even J.J. Redick developed a midrange in between game. Last season, he took 34% of his shots from between 16 feet and 3 point range, and shot .473 from there. J.J. took 52% of his shots from 2 point range in total.

D-League took 38% of his shots from 2 point range in total and he shot below 40% from every 2 point distance except from 0-3 feet . Shit, Redick even shoots a higher percentage from 0-3 feet than D-League.

Someone will say because Redick plays alongside Chris Paul, but that's yet another excuse. It's never on Danny. It's always some excuse. "LMA is affecting his shot." "He's just limited. A role player. What do you expect?" "Parker this, Parker that."

Every time he catches the ball at the arc, he gets closed out on, and has an ocean of mid-range space to hit a pull up jumper. Again, Redick does this at a great clip, but yet D-League is somehow incapable of adding it to his game. Kawhi added it to his game by his 2nd second season, and he was a terrible shooter coming out of college.

I don't buy it.

But yeah, he plays defense and hit a bunch of 3s against the Heat for 2 games.

I just want around J.J. Redick offensive performance from him. I don't think that's too much to expect.

Someone will say, "he doesn't have Redick's overall game."

Modern training methods with regards to skills are so good now, there should be little excuse. Yes, skills that are reliant on athleticism like dribble-drive penetration can't simply be taught to a player who naturally lacks speed and leaping ability, but all professional players can learn to shoot from midrange, as Redick has. Danny has great length and can obviously shoot from 3, so there should be nothing keeping him from tacking on 4 extra points per game from mid-range jumpers.

[Robz4000]

I did hear a Parker/Anderson/first for Collison/Gay trade proposal. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Not sure about Gay, but I'd take a chance on him. Worst-case scenario he's gone next season and the Spurs have Porker off the books. Again though, I doubt the Spurs ever trade Porker.

[SpurPadre]

I just don't think you'd anything great for him. I think had MKE known what was going to happen to Middleton, they would have given up 10 for Green during the draft. Maybe Chicago would have done something similar with 14. Or SAC with eight. None of the guys they actually picked at those spots would be good enough now, especially since the Spurs wouldn't be able to use that cap space. Plus those teams don't have the same optimism they had during the summer.

Sixers fans have suggested that Green could be the main piece in an Okafor package, but unless it's like Okafor, Covington and Korkmaz for Green, Mills and some other incentive, I don't think it has legs.

Yeah, it's not an easy scenario in regards to Green.

[midnightpulp]

Sure didn't stop them from being a contender in 2012-2014. Maybe that's not modern enough for you.

Green's not beyond criticism. He is beyond people repeating the same stale takes about him that they've been saying for six years. He's already proven he's a viable starter on a championship level team, so this "d-league" talk is just lame.

We also had a good Parker, good Duncan, and good Manu during that time. Danny is now a "young gun" that is part of the new core, so it was on him add to his arsenal as those players declined. And he didn't. Same old spot up system shooter.

Again, Redick can shoot from the midrange. What's stopping Danny?

[HarlemHeat37]

I just find mid's point strange, considering every other contender from last year had a Danny Green-type in their starting lineup, tbh:lol

I'm a Green homer, just like he's an Aldridge/Gasol homer, but still, I don't know where you'll find an NBA starting lineup on a top team that doesn't have a role player that mostly shoots open shots..

[Robz4000]

In case you missed this post during the page flip:



I just want around J.J. Redick offensive performance from him. I don't think that's too much to expect.

Someone will say, "he doesn't have Redick's overall game."

Modern training methods with regards to skills are so good now, there should be little excuse. Yes, skills that are reliant on athleticism like dribble-drive penetration can't simply be taught to a player who naturally lacks speed and leaping ability, but all professional players can learn to shoot from midrange, as Redick has. Danny has great length and can obviously shoot from 3, so there should be nothing keeping him from tacking on 4 extra points per game from mid-range jumpers.

He is what he is tbh, and what he doesn't manage on offense is made up for on the defensive end (where Reddick is a liability). He's shown signs of a counter to getting run off the line this season (that little dribble inside then step back and pop the shot); let's see where it goes. At this point, however, Green is not the issue with this team.

[Kawhitstorm]

Danny frustrates me because he's had 5 seasons now to add some semblance of a dribble-drive or inbetween game to his arsenal, but he's still over-reliant on being the same system spot up shooter as he was in 2013.

Even J.J. Redick developed a midrange in between game. Last season, he took 34% of his shots from between 16 feet and 3 point range, and shot .473 from there. J.J. took 52% of his shots from 2 point range in total.

ReDick is the all-time leading scorer in the ACC, Danny was the 5th option even in college for the entire 4 year.:lol

[Chinook]

We also had a good Parker, good Duncan, and good Manu during that time. Danny is now a "young gun" that is part of the new core, so it was on him add to his arsenal as those players declined. And he didn't. Same old spot up system shooter.

Again, Redick can shoot from the midrange. What's stopping Danny?

Seems like even you know the issue is with some of the five players making more than him. Danny left money on the table so the team could get stars. Don't blame him because PATFO pissed that money away.

[SpurPadre]

We have to accept that TP is a made man, just like Bonner was for the Spurs. He will never, under ANY circumstance be traded.

[HarlemHeat37]

Sucks that the Spurs couldn't foresee that Dedmon and Lee would become such productive players, tbh..neither could start for a full load of minutes, but they could have been good enough to split them..

The Gasol signing was such a waste, unfortunately..easier said in hindsight, as both Dedmon and Lee were question marks, but still..very pointless..

[DPG21920]

I did hear a Parker/Anderson/first for Collison/Gay trade proposal. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

I really don't see SA trading TP unless its a no-brainer foundation piece. Gay/Collison aren't that. I mean, I would easily do that trade value wise, but I don't see SA trading TP.

[SAGirl]

It's been hammered to death, but the Spurs realistically had about $23-24 Million in cap space this summer. It's sad that with that cap situation, only Lee, Dedmon and Bertans were good acquisitions (especially since none of them had to count against the cap at all).
The
truth and I do agree that Pau is redundant with LMA though he's a better passer and if he was the same age, flat out better player... overall the offseason was underwhelming.

I have grievances with PATFO. I don't care to name them all.

Guard play was a priority for me... huge priority but it did require Pop to move on from emotional attachments to Tony and Manu. We know that wasn't going to happen.

[DPG21920]

Mid, come on man. These arguments are really tired.

Danny not only does his job defensively which is huge vs most playoff teams SA has to face (when paired with Kawhi) but he is clutch.

Sorry he's not the best slasher; if he was SA could not afford him because he would be a top 30 player in the NBA. JJ Reddick can't play defense like Danny either.

[Kawhitstorm]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..

I made a post saying PATFO should trade Danny for G.Hill last season (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256790&page=2&p=8810493) when the Pacers were severely under-utilizing him w/ Monta running the offense but Danny's lover (Chinook) claimed Hill wasn't even a starter.:lol

[midnightpulp]

I just find mid's point strange, considering every other contender from last year had a Danny Green-type in their starting lineup, tbh:lol

I'm a Green homer, just like he's an Aldridge/Gasol homer, but still, I don't know where you'll find an NBA starting lineup on a top team that doesn't have a role player that mostly shoots open shots..

Clippers: J.J. Redick. As I've said before, he's deadly from 16-23 feet, meaning he can burn defenders with pull up midrange J's when they close on him.

Warriors: Klay Thompson. Overrated, sure, but a much better all around offensive player than Danny.

Cavs: J.R. Smith. Even though super athletic, he's generally a spot up shooter today. Difference is, the Cavs have Lebron and Kyrie in front of him on the perimeter pecking order.

Danny is, quite literally, our second best perimeter player. The impetus was on him to develop a backup weapon in addition to his spot up 3 point shooting. Yeah, I know he'll never be a penetrator, but there is no conceivable reason he couldn't add a consistent 15 footer to his game.

This is all I ask from Danny.

12 points, 2-5 3pt, 2-5 from 2, 2-2 FT type of games.

Redick does it in his sleep.

[Chinook]

I made a post saying PATFO should trade Danny for G.Hill last season (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256790&page=2&p=8810493) when the Pacers were severely under-utilizing him w/ Monta running the offense but Danny's lover (Chinook) claimed Hill wasn't even a starter.:lol

At least you still aren't pushing for this trade. Ian is toxic.

Sad that you're acting like Hill hasn't been in the league for longer than this season, though.

[midnightpulp]

Seems like even you know the issue is with some of the five players making more than him. Danny left money on the table so the team could get stars. Don't blame him because PATFO pissed that money away.

Still didn't answer the question.

What's stopping Danny from developing a midrange pull-up when the 3 ball is being taken away?

:cry "It's not his game!" :cry

Kawhi with his big ass hands, shit mechanics, and non-existent jumpshot skillset coming out of college developed himself into one of, if not the best, mid-range jump shooters in the game.

[HarlemHeat37]

Clippers: J.J. Redick. As I've said before, he's deadly from 16-23 feet, meaning he can burn defenders with pull up midrange J's when they close on him.

Warriors: Klay Thompson. Overrated, sure, but a much better all around offensive player than Danny.

Cavs: J.R. Smith. Even though super athletic, he's generally a spot up shooter today. Difference is, the Cavs have Lebron and Kyrie in front of him on the perimeter pecking order.

Danny is, quite literally, our second best perimeter player. The impetus was on him to develop a backup weapon in addition to his spot up 3 point shooting. Yeah, I know he'll never be a penetrator, but there is no conceivable reason he couldn't add a consistent 15 footer to his game.

This is all I ask from Danny.

12 points, 2-5 3pt, 2-5 from 2, 2-2 FT type of games.

Redick does it in his sleep.

Eh, that's not how it works:lol

Green is the role player, not a go-to option on the perimeter, that's Kawhi and Parker, by design(not that Danny could do it, anyways, he can't)..he isn't Redick, he's Mbah a Moute..he isn't Klay, he's Harrison Barnes..he isn't Derozan, he's Demarre Carroll..

His job is to make 3s and play defense..when he isn't doing either of those, he deserves criticism..he has never been asked to carry the load as a creator(outside of small stretches in 2014-2015) and he never will be, that isn't his job..

And yes, Redick is a better offensive player than Green..they're completely different players, though..Redick is a major option for the Clippers, part of their offense is designed around him, he's much more involved in their offense than Danny is for the Spurs, obviously..at this point, he isn't even a role player..

[GSH]

Mid, come on man. These arguments are really tired.

Danny not only does his job defensively which is huge vs most playoff teams SA has to face (when paired with Kawhi) but he is clutch.

Sorry he's not the best slasher; if he was SA could not afford him because he would be a top 30 player in the NBA. JJ Reddick can't play defense like Danny either.


I didn't think the point was to trade Danny because he can't slash. I thought it was because he's worth more than his contract. Of course, if you believe this team is really going to have a serious shot at winning #6, then keeping Green is pretty much a no-brainer. If not, a guy who is worth more than his current contract is a good place to start.

If you're looking to the future, put Danny AND LMA (or Pau) on the trading block, and then see who might be available, and what kind of picks might get thrown into a deal.

[Kawhitstorm]

At least you still aren't pushing for this trade. Ian is toxic.

PATFO wouldn't have paid Ian 70 mill::lol

For about 10mill per, Ian would have been a better fit alongside LMA than Gasoft.

[SAGirl]

People dogging Danny are the worst kind of ST's. Don't bring that ish my way tbh..
Yea
I agree. I give you thumbs up. Not on Danny, he's a great roleplayer.
it's really the former star playmaking guards are not who they are supposed to be anymore.

It is what it is... age catches everyone and it is not pretty at the end.

Can't include Simms in this. He's fine for his role in the rotation and has improved a lot. But obviously he's not going to save Tony and Manu from themselves... or Patty from a night in which his size, while being guarded by size/length and athleticism causes him to TO the ball bc he can't get out clean passes. He's a fine backup PG and is on a very low salary for his production.

This one is Tony/Manu.

[HarlemHeat37]

And personally speaking..while it's true that I was one of the leaders of the anti-Parker movement on ST, that was 2 years ago..I haven't said anything bad about him in a long time, tbh, I've been mostly supportive, actually..

I don't criticize him anymore, because it doesn't make any sense IMO..he didn't put himself in this role, Pop and RC did..it doesn't make sense to shit on a broken down PG with a ton of mileage when he shouldn't be starting for an aspiring contender..

[DPG21920]

Yup - I still think SA will ultimately be very good this year. This is going to take some time. But it's on TP/Manu's decline and no real answer for that.

LMA/Pau/Kawhi/Danny is all-star level starting lineup if they had more consistent guard play. The bench with Mills/Lee/Dedmon/Bertans/Etc.. is quality.

The team is damn close.

[Chinook]

PATFO wouldn't have paid Ian 70 mill::lol

For about 10mill per, Ian would have been a better fit alongside LMA than Gasoft.

Good thing he was an RFA so the Spurs could force him to take their offer.

If there is any truth to the idea that you have multiple accounts, you're letting your gambit persona shine through a bit too much.

[ElNono]

Clippers: J.J. Redick. As I've said before, he's deadly from 16-23 feet, meaning he can burn defenders with pull up midrange J's when they close on him.

Warriors: Klay Thompson. Overrated, sure, but a much better all around offensive player than Danny.

Cavs: J.R. Smith. Even though super athletic, he's generally a spot up shooter today. Difference is, the Cavs have Lebron and Kyrie in front of him on the perimeter pecking order.

Danny is, quite literally, our second best perimeter player. The impetus was on him to develop a backup weapon in addition to his spot up 3 point shooting. Yeah, I know he'll never be a penetrator, but there is no conceivable reason he couldn't add a consistent 15 footer to his game.

This is all I ask from Danny.

12 points, 2-5 3pt, 2-5 from 2, 2-2 FT type of games.

Redick does it in his sleep.

Don't completely disagree with the frustration, tbh, I brought up the same question about two seasons ago, IIRC...

Yet, even if we were to argue Danny is very limited, he's getting paid as such a player, and he arguably has great value defensively.

Even if he would be JJ Reddick, I don't know if I want him to take shots away from LMA or Kawhi, or even Pau to an extent (he's doing the midrange game, and well)

Seriously, this team some nights just has an attitude problem... even Timmy, who was the quiet leader, would show you he had that extra gear here or there in the regular season. I don't see that from guys like Carmelo, tbh... you get whatever he feels like any given night. If he's hitting, you'll get the double-tap and the puffed chest, and if he's not, oh well, here comes the L...

[houston spurs fan]

And personally speaking..while it's true that I was one of the leaders of the anti-Parker movement on ST, that was 2 years ago..I haven't said anything bad about him in a long time, tbh, I've been mostly supportive, actually..

I don't criticize him anymore, because it doesn't make any sense IMO..he didn't put himself in this role, Pop and RC did..it doesn't make sense to shit on a broken down PG with a ton of mileage when he shouldn't be starting for an aspiring contender..
Problem with all of your "movements". They fizzle.......and fizzle... and yawn...

[Chinook]

Still didn't answer the question.

What's stopping Danny from developing a midrange pull-up when the 3 ball is being taken away?

:cry "It's not his game!" :cry

Kawhi with his big ass hands, shit mechanics, and non-existent jumpshot skillset coming out of college developed himself into one of, if not the best, mid-range jump shooters in the game.

Your point is irrelevant. Danny is shaky at best at creating. Still a legit starter. Has the ring to prove it.

[midnightpulp]

Sucks that the Spurs couldn't foresee that Dedmon and Lee would become such productive players, tbh..neither could start for a full load of minutes, but they could have been good enough to split them..

The Gasol signing was such a waste, unfortunately..easier said in hindsight, as both Dedmon and Lee were question marks, but still..very pointless..

Those two as paint anchors?

:lol

If you're going to play smallball with LMA at center, Lee at the 4 (a horrible defender), you need elite 3 point volume shooting to offset the points you'll concede in the paint. I don't think the Spurs turn themselves into a Wardellball team with any pickup in FA, especially considering Parker would still be starting. The plan was to go big while they go small, and in theory, it could work, but our shitty backcourt rotation doesn't provide enough consistent scoring to make any scheme work right now.

I know the bigs are the trendy thing to blame right now, but when Parker and company are averaging 42 points per game over 5 players, you're going to have problems keeping up with high octane teams.

[timtonymanu]

We have to accept that TP is a made man, just like Bonner was for the Spurs. He will never, under ANY circumstance be traded.

And that's why it doesn't make sense to harp on Danny's shortcomings. Spurs won't trade Parker and they will have to live with it until he's a free agent. Parker is too old to be starting on a team trying to compete for a championship. You just have to hope he can play like November Parker all year but it hasn't happened or been consistent in the playoffs the last two years.

[Boomersgold]

If patty is asking for 10 million dollars a year next year...I say dobt even bother resigning that nigga..although i heard the spurs have his bird rights.


Why sign Patty for 10 when you can sign Manu for 14 and Parker for 15. They're clearly worth it.

[DPG21920]

There is no argument against Danny as a legit starter on a legit contender. If he was any better (like JJ Reddick on offense) he would be a top 30 player :lol

He's fine and a great proven piece.

I honestly feel, and it's hard to quantify, that this team has no leader with Tim gone. Obviously that is a huge piece to lose but its shocking how there doesn't seem to be any spirit on this team.

A lot of talent, good guys, play hard, but there is no emotional leader with any gravity. Pop seems too old to be that guy, TP/Manu have diminished too much even if they are respected. Pau is new and never has been that way. LMA has never been that guy. Kawhi is naturally quiet even if he is being slightly more vocal on the floor.

There is no heartbeat player.

[midnightpulp]

Don't completely disagree with the frustration, tbh, I brought up the same question about two seasons ago, IIRC...

Yet, even if we were to argue Danny is very limited, he's getting paid as such a player, and he arguably has great value defensively.

Even if he would be JJ Reddick, I don't know if I want him to take shots away from LMA or Kawhi, or even Pau to an extent (he's doing the midrange game, and well)

Seriously, this team some nights just has an attitude problem... even Timmy, who was the quiet leader, would show you he had that extra gear here or there in the regular season. I don't see that from guys like Carmelo, tbh... you get whatever he feels like any given night. If he's hitting, you'll get the double-tap and the puffed chest, and if he's not, oh well, here comes the L...

i think he needs to take shots away. If you just force feed the frontline with the most shots, our offense is piss easy to defend. Pau was also brought in to be like an 8-8 type of player. I don't think Pop and Co. envisioned him as the 3rd dog. I guess they still held out hope Parker could once again be a consistent 13ish ppg or more type of scorer.

[SAGirl]

Btw, I actually agree that the Spurs should look to move Green, especially if he continues shooting well..he has one of the friendliest contracts in the NBA, they could probably get a piece for him in a package..

The reason they should do it is because they clearly don't have any interest on fixing the PG position in the next 2 years, there's virtually no chance that Parker will be benched..if that's the case, they might as well look for a different type of SG and attempt to transition TP into a role player, if possible(spot-up shooter/defender, which is unlikely, but maybe he can carve out a new niche)..

That's a tragedy to me but I know you mean that with sincerest heartfelt desire to make the team better within Pop's parameters of not trading Tony out. That is doing Danny dirty though, he took less to remain in the Spurs. I can't see the Spurs doing that to him either.

[ElNono]

There is no argument against Danny as a legit starter on a legit contender. If he was any better (like JJ Reddick on offense) he would be a top 30 player :lol

He's fine and a great proven piece.

I honestly feel, and it's hard to quantify, that this team has no leader with Tim gone. Obviously that is a huge piece to lose but its shocking how there doesn't seem to be any spirit on this team.

A lot of talent, good guys, play hard, but there is no emotional leader with any gravity. Pop seems too old to be that guy, TP/Manu have diminished too much even if they are respected. Pau is new and never has been that way. LMA has never been that guy. Kawhi is naturally quiet even if he is being slightly more vocal on the floor.

There is no heartbeat player.

Agreed (although we'll put this in perspective, we are 14-4). It was one of the main fears I had last season when I mentioned I didn't think the Spurs would ring for a while after the retirement.

It's not insurmountable, but it's going to take some time. Right now it looks like we're going to need a few injuries, luck to go our way to go all the way.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pau was a waste this offseason.

Hated it at the time & hate it now. He'll have his moments vs bad teams like the Kings, but this team may be locked into mediocrity the next 2 yrs with Pau likely opting in & TPs contract..

They needed to bring in versatile youth like Harkless & Terrence Jones and should have made a better offer for Jeff Teague ( Mills & Diaw + 1st at around the draft).

Spurs may be two yrs away from making the type of moves they should have made last summer.

[GSH]

Yup - I still think SA will ultimately be very good this year. This is going to take some time. But it's on TP/Manu's decline and no real answer for that.

LMA/Pau/Kawhi/Danny is all-star level starting lineup if they had more consistent guard play. The bench with Mills/Lee/Dedmon/Bertans/Etc.. is quality.

The team is damn close.


On paper. And I agreed with you right before the season started. But unless Pau and LMA are doing the rope-a-dope, and saving it all up for the playoffs, I'm not seeing all-star level effort. If you're right, then Pop needs to get back to earning his accolades. Sitting back and letting them figure it out isn't getting it done.

Be honest - do Pop, LMA, and Pau look like three guys who are single-mindedly driven by the prospect of winning a championship in the here-and-now? I know it's easy to be critical from the comfort of a couch. But I've seen teams, players, and coaches look that way enough times, and I really don't see it on this team right now. They all three look like they are going through the motions. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe it will change in the upcoming months. But I think you're looking at who they could be.

[DPG21920]

Agreed (although we'll put this in perspective, we are 14-4). It was one of the main fears I had last season when I mentioned I didn't think the Spurs would ring for a while after the retirement.

It's not insurmountable, but it's going to take some time. Right now it looks like we're going to need a few injuries, luck to go our way to go all the way.

Exactly - the team is still really good with a solid ceiling. But we see the margin for error is nil because of TP/Manu and there is still work to do with guys fitting in/coaching.

It all sounds poetic and dramatic but these are rich people problems tbh..

[DPG21920]

On paper. And I agreed with you right before the season started. But unless Pau and LMA are doing the rope-a-dope, and saving it all up for the playoffs, I'm not seeing all-star level effort. If you're right, then Pop needs to get back to earning his accolades. Sitting back and letting them figure it out isn't getting it done.

Be honest - do Pop, LMA, and Pau look like three guys who are single-mindedly driven by the prospect of winning a championship in the here-and-now? I know it's easy to be critical from the comfort of a couch. But I've seen teams, players, and coaches look that way enough times, and I really don't see it on this team right now. They all three look like they are going through the motions. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe it will change in the upcoming months. But I think you're looking at who they could be.

Well right now with all the doom and gloom they are still a top 3 team in the West. But I'm definitely looking at who they could be for sure. It's not guaranteed to get their either.

[midnightpulp]

Eh, that's not how it works:lol

Green is the role player, not a go-to option on the perimeter, that's Kawhi and Parker, by design(not that Danny could do it, anyways, he can't)..he isn't Redick, he's Mbah a Moute..he isn't Klay, he's Harrison Barnes..he isn't Derozan, he's Demarre Carroll..

His job is to make 3s and play defense..when he isn't doing either of those, he deserves criticism..he has never been asked to carry the load as a creator(outside of small stretches in 2014-2015) and he never will be, that isn't his job..

And yes, Redick is a better offensive player than Green..they're completely different players, though..Redick is a major option for the Clippers, part of their offense is designed around him, he's much more involved in their offense than Danny is for the Spurs, obviously..at this point, he isn't even a role player..

There should be nothing keeping Danny from adding a pump fake plus pull-up midrange shot to his game. When he's closed out on quickly, the offense often stalls to a halt and Danny is forced to pass it back to a scorer (Kawhi, Parker, LMA) for a forced shot.

Kawhi added it with all of his physical (big hands, poor dribbler) and experiential (was never a creator in college) limitations. Danny should be more than able. 4 points more from him via jumpers off defender closeouts would be a boon. And you wouldn't have to redesign the system/offense at all.

He's always came off as kind of a corny swagfag to me, so I could see him just chilling in clubs and such during the offseason after the contract instead of gym-ratting like Kawhi.

[Kawhitstorm]

Good thing he was an RFA so the Spurs could force him to take their offer.

My point was that let him walk like the Pacers did if he got an offer more than 10 mills.:rolleyes
The trade I proposed was basically Danny for Hill & Fat Head for Ian (as a backup center ala Dedmon).:wakeup

[SAGirl]

There's no quick fix here, tbh... if you're gonna put it on one guy, it gotta be Pop... this team goes from largely amazing on the road to lethargic at home. It's not about calling people soft, it's about doing something about it.

You can have bad shooting nights. Tonight was one of those nights. But there's no excuse to coast at home, and most of the loses had a big dose of that.It's alarming. From a team that went 40-1 at home last season to this. And they have declined on defense. Going into this game they were ranked 13th... when, when in the Duncan era were they 13th? They can't get stops when they need them. I can't seriously consider a contender a team with a 13th ranked defense that has no explosive scoring from it's guards. I put it on PATFO, bc roster construction... the outlook of this team even starts with him.

[Keepin' it real]

Rank our backcourt rotation

http://allthingsd.com/files/2012/02/larrydavidtshirt-380x285.png

[Kawhitstorm]

Pau was a waste this offseason.

Hated it at the time & hate it now. He'll have his moments vs bad teams like the Kings, but this team may be locked into mediocrity the next 2 yrs with Pau likely opting in & TPs contract..

It seems to me like Pop is going to retire when Porker's contract runs out so he doesn't want anything to do w/ player development. He's just going to keep signing vets & let them figure out the system on the fly while they play rotation minutes.

[SAGirl]

Sucks that the Spurs couldn't foresee that Dedmon and Lee would become such productive players, tbh..neither could start for a full load of minutes, but they could have been good enough to split them..

The Gasol signing was such a waste, unfortunately..easier said in hindsight, as both Dedmon and Lee were question marks, but still..very pointless..
Agreed
100%
It's a waste. He is getting benched against small teams which is half the league and a lot of benches... (I don't really know, but it's a lot of teams). He was getting killed against GSW, he got benched against Celtics. He got benched against the Magic... the Magic? He's had 0 scoring games already (Celtics).. he looks like a statue defending .. or rather not moving... rebounds fly past him at times. He's had his share of low scoring games etc. There is just not enough to feed both him and LMA enough shots and it did make the team unbalanced. Bertans is a legit NBA prospect and he can't find playing time without Pop benching other guys. Pau is the perfect guy to trade if they would rather keep LMA.

And I have liked MVPau in other aspects... his passing, his shooting, he's had a lot of impact on offense... but clearly, he's not being fully utilized either when the team is playing small (as we have seen) and the Spurs don't have a single elite playmaking guard. I think Simmons is trying to be that. He's a some good games and has been making good decisions for others, but obviously he cannot be your best playmaking guard if you are the Spurs.

[TheGreatYacht]

Philly wanted Manure right? Trade him for Nerlens

[SAGirl]

It seems to me like Pop is going to retire when Porker's contract runs out so he doesn't want anything to do w/ player development. He's just going to keep signing vets & let them figure out the system on the fly while they play rotation minutes.
He's leaving the player development to Messina it looks like to me.

[dabom]

Throwing you a bone. How is messing in charge of player development?

[YGWHI]

There is no heartbeat player.

"It all sounds poetic and dramatic but" a leader can't make Parker/Manu younger, or turn Simms into Harden...Neither Tim could.

We can write 100 pages about if Danny, if Gasol, if Bertans...OP's right. Role players won't fix the lack of elite playmakers and guards who every contender has.

And Pop wasn't willing to fix it in the offseaon. In fact, he exacerbated the problem.

[spurraider21]

as much as i love him, manu shoulda retired if he didnt have anything left in the tank. if he's just going to be a spot up shooter, we coulda found better replacements for 15 mil

[Kawhitstorm]

And I have liked MVPau in other aspects... his passing, his shooting, he's had a lot of impact on offense... but clearly, he's not being fully utilized either when the team is playing small (as we have seen) and the Spurs don't have a single elite playmaking guard. I think Simmons is trying to be that. He's a some good games and has been making good decisions for others, but obviously he cannot be your best playmaking guard if you are the Spurs.

If the Mavs aren't set on tanking then I would offer Pau/Fat Head for Bogut/Barea. The Mavs need bodies & a couple of frontcourt players, Pau can put up empty stats to keep the Cuban entertained while Carlisle could get the best out of Fat Head.

As far as the Spurs, Bogut would give them 20 minutes of quality interior defense & Barea would easily be the best penetrator on the team....outside of the bedroom.

[ElNono]

as much as i love him, manu shoulda retired if he didnt have anything left in the tank. if he's just going to be a spot up shooter, we coulda found better replacements for 15 mil

I thought he actually played pretty decent tonight... at least it looked like he cared. We really didn't have $15m for a replacement, tbh... it was more like $5m...

[Kawhitstorm]

I thought he actually played pretty decent tonight... at least it looked like he cared. We really didn't have $15m for a replacement, tbh... it was more like $5m...

Trade his ass to the Suns, I heard they have been coveting him since the Nash days. Hopefully, he gets deported.:wakeup

Bledsoe for Manure::wow

[ElNono]

Trade his ass to the Suns, I heard they have been coveting him since the Nash days. Hopefully, he gets deported.:wakeup

Bledsoe for Manure::wow

Bledsoe is a cancer, tbh... I'll take Devin Booker + Len...

[Austin_Toros]

Patty House: Great shooter, but massively undersized at 5'10" (he ain't 6 feet)..
I once stood next to Patty and can confirm this is true.

[kaji157]

The truth is that the "rotation" is not our problem, our problem relies on the inconsistency of the starters (Tony and Danny).
If you look at the league average, that´s where we are at fault, our starting backcourt giving us very little, in almost all aspects.
Combined, Tony and Danny are giving us 18.4 points, 6.8 assists, 5.4 rebounds in 52.9 minutes. While shooting a combined 42% from the floor and 42% from 3.
That is way under league average in almost everything but 3pt%.

Our primary backups (Manu and Patty) are not the same case, they are having an average year maye by league averages, but not bad.
Combined they are giving us 18.6 points, 5.6 assists, 4.8 rebounds in 42.5 minutes. Shooting 44% from the floor and 40% from 3.
That´s quite average for a backup role.

As said, the problem we have is that our subs usually "compensated" for the Starters, Manu cannot do this anymore, and he should not be expected to, so our starters get exposed for what they really bring. (Little)

[Chinook]

I imagine that the starters for other teams play more than 53mpg. And that the bench plays less than 43. I don't know what it would look like if you did per-36 stats, but that makes a big difference when comparing Spurs players to other teams. No question the back court isn't elite or even very good offensively, though.

[SpursforSix]

I rank it as category, "shitty".

[MVPCues]

While TP is up and down and he's shown much more than Manu and that's with Manu barley playing and getting rest days. Manu has fallen off the cliff to start the year.

I think Manu fell off the cliff prior to this year...he is just still falling....tall cliff.

[Phenomanul]

The truth is that the "rotation" is not our problem, our problem relies on the inconsistency of the starters (Tony and Danny).
If you look at the league average, that´s where we are at fault, our starting backcourt giving us very little, in almost all aspects.
Combined, Tony and Danny are giving us 18.4 points, 6.8 assists, 5.4 rebounds in 52.9 minutes. While shooting a combined 42% from the floor and 42% from 3.
That is way under league average in almost everything but 3pt%.

Our primary backups (Manu and Patty) are not the same case, they are having an average year maye by league averages, but not bad.
Combined they are giving us 18.6 points, 5.6 assists, 4.8 rebounds in 42.5 minutes. Shooting 44% from the floor and 40% from 3.
That´s quite average for a backup role.

As said, the problem we have is that our subs usually "compensated" for the Starters, Manu cannot do this anymore, and he should not be expected to, so our starters get exposed for what they really bring. (Little)


You're making too much sense... folks here don't like that...

[Kawhitstorm]

I imagine that the starters for other teams play more than 53mpg. And that the bench plays less than 43. I don't know what it would look like if you did per-36 stats, but that makes a big difference when comparing Spurs players to other teams. No question the back court isn't elite or even very good offensively, though.

I think we have seen what a below average backcourt will do to a team (Pelicans sans Jrue) or what kind of miracles an upgrade will do for a team (Jazz/Hill).


The Jazz are outscoring opponents by 27.2 points per 100 possessions with Gordon Hayward, George Hill and Rudy Gobert on the floor together. That trio has been limited to only 122 minutes due to injuries to Hayward and Hill, but Utah is 5-0 when its two leading scorers both play.

803980895283712000

[Kawhitstorm]

Philly wanted Manure right? Trade him for Nerlens

:bobo

[spursistan]

I was just checking the depth chart for all teams ( http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/depth-charts (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/depth-charts);) )it could be argued only Philly and the Bucks have a worse rotation and consistent production from the PG/SG position..

it is toss up between us and the Knicks or the Kings for 3rd worst back-court in the league :lol..

[Ice009]

I really don't see SA trading TP unless its a no-brainer foundation piece. Gay/Collison aren't that. I mean, I would easily do that trade value wise, but I don't see SA trading TP.

Didn't the Spurs trade the Iceman? So why can't they trade Tony Parker?

[Kawhitstorm]

I was just checking the depth chart for all teams (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/depth-charts); it could be argued only Philly and the Bucks have a worse rotation and consistent production from the PG/SG position..

it is toss up between us and the Knicks or the Kings for 3rd worst back-court in the league :lol..

The Bucks wouldn't be starting Snell if Middleton was healthy.:lol

[spursistan]

The Bucks wouldn't be starting Snell if Middleton was healthy.:lol
Yeah; totally forgot about Middleton..It is undoubtedly a bottom three back court in the league when every one is healthy..they should have really signed Felton instead Forbes/Lapro; the Clippers have a logjam with ball-dominant guards in their bench unit (Austin Rivers/Jamal/ Fatson sharing one ball :lol)..

[AFMadison]

We are 14-4. It's okay guys.

[dabom]

We are 14-4. It's okay guys.

What, you don't like reactionary threads/posts? What kind of fucking poster are ya? You sick bastard.

[AFMadison]

What, you don't like reactionary threads/posts? What kind of fucking poster are ya? You sick bastard.

Someone's gotta balance out the forum tbh

[Joseph Kony]

Spurs guard rotation is pretty atrocious. Green and Mills are solid but one is clearly a backup and Simmons is too streaky and inconsistent imo, he has confidence issues for some reason. Then you have the corpses of Parker/Manu with some shitty rookies and yeah, it looks like we have one of the worst backcourt rotations in the L

[SAGirl]

I think we have seen what a below average backcourt will do to a team (Pelicans sans Jrue) or what kind of miracles an upgrade will do for a team (Jazz/Hill).



803980895283712000
Good points. Send that tweet and that post to Pop.

I am all of a sudden very pessimistic. The Spurs don't have the guards to win it this season and I have little faith in Pau Gasol all of a sudden playing defense.

Heck, I'd rather the team developed players at this point and looked to upgrade the guard situation somehow and do the minitank if they must. I don't have the answer, but Spurs might have to gamble on some young prospect somewhere...

I am cliff jumping maybe... but the guard situation is going to sink the Spurs...

me jumping off a cliff:
http://66.media.tumblr.com/e606e294eecfee2c5362bd76360d85fc/tumblr_muh3m01j7V1s24qdco1_500.gif

http://www.mybirdie.ca/files/pessimist.jpeg

I think Spurs glass needs a refill

[raybies]

There is no argument against Danny as a legit starter on a legit contender. If he was any better (like JJ Reddick on offense) he would be a top 30 player :lol

He's fine and a great proven piece.

I honestly feel, and it's hard to quantify, that this team has no leader with Tim gone. Obviously that is a huge piece to lose but its shocking how there doesn't seem to be any spirit on this team.

A lot of talent, good guys, play hard, but there is no emotional leader with any gravity. Pop seems too old to be that guy, TP/Manu have diminished too much even if they are respected. Pau is new and never has been that way. LMA has never been that guy. Kawhi is naturally quiet even if he is being slightly more vocal on the floor.

There is no heartbeat player.
this. Still searching for an identity.

[gambit1990]

parker is a much bigger problem than green.

[raybies]

We are 14-4. It's okay guys.
People just getting grips that we are a fringe contender slash mostly pretender status. Or unless your fine repeating last year, have franchise wins yet flame out in the playoffs. I for one think of Murray as our last hope or proverbial Luke Skywalker. He projects as a player that fits the bill, he's just so so very gum shoed and young. Just glad he's earning pops respect.

[SAGirl]

^ It is true bc 3 different guards took Danny's spot in the rotation at different point this season (KA, and Simmons one game against Utah)... the production from that spot no matter who you place there is not going to be much bc all 3 frontcourt players demand touches and FGA (just stating the obvious and the truth)... then there is Tony, who is an offensive player who needs the ball to create for others or get his own shots... it's also the truth that is his role and if he's not doing that then he doesn't have a spot worth using. The SG in that lineup is best as floor spacer (which both Kyle and Simmons were very poor at... and Danny is excellent at), the SG also gets tough defensive assignments and for Danny that is a strength.

Danny just completely fills the needs for that spot in the current Spurs and he has for several seasons. You don't need a ball dominant SG in that spot, when you already have Kawhi and Tony.

In reality, it is just Tony's decline that is the problem. He can no longer give the consistent production that a starting spot calls for and when he doesn't the team struggles. This already happened last season. It's nothing new. It's also not surprising that when Tony has a good game, the team looks completely different and you can see how it should work in reality all the time.

Let's just say Tony struggled. It's something to watch for the upcoming months and maybe he needs to be rested and others developed. It's a fine balance bc playing rookies is risky, but Pop got 3 rook guards in the team (Murray/Lapro/Forbes) so Pop made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

[TrainOfThought5]

Coming from the guy who said Porker should be our "Turd Option". :lol

CROFLMAO thats a classic.

[SAGirl]

People just getting grips that we are a fringe contender slash mostly pretender status. Or unless your fine repeating last year, have franchise wins yet flame out in the playoffs. I for one think of Murray as our last hope or proverbial Luke Skywalker. He projects as a player that fits the bill, he's just so so very gum shoed and young. Just glad he's earning pops respect.I think he is, far as I can tell he has surpassed Lapro and is getting playing time early whenever they can spare him. You were right that Lapro was just a motivation for him to compete and execute better.

/sigh
I will be honest. I am probably too pessimistic and bummed out and I will bounce back from this lol :toast, but I would much rather watch rookies and young prospects struggle than old players struggle. Pop has to rest Tony and Manu more. Both played summer ball. Tony got injured to start the season and was playing through a nag which he should not have done. Manu is tough to sit at home bc he might be on the retirement tour factor, ppl pay to see him play...

I have less interest in the Spurs if they are not playing their youth TBH. I am probably unique in that I do care about the RS bc I like to see young players develop.

[DPG21920]

People just getting grips that we are a fringe contender slash mostly pretender status. Or unless your fine repeating last year, have franchise wins yet flame out in the playoffs. I for one think of Murray as our last hope or proverbial Luke Skywalker. He projects as a player that fits the bill, he's just so so very gum shoed and young. Just glad he's earning pops respect.

Yup. I cautioned this all pre-season. Things will take time and there is going to be a big adjustment. Not just in the level of success we are used to (Wins and Losses - Spurs still doing well there) but this isn't going to be a team that just blows everyone out all the time while managing minutes.

Too many new pieces, too much of a lack of identity and too big of a loss in Tim.

[kaji157]

I think he is, far as I can tell he has surpassed Lapro and is getting playing time early whenever they can spare him. You were right that Lapro was just a motivation for him to compete and execute better.

/sigh
I will be honest. I am probably too pessimistic and bummed out and I will bounce back from this lol :toast, but I would much rather watch rookies and young prospects struggle than old players struggle. Pop has to rest Tony and Manu more. Both played summer ball. Tony got injured to start the season and was playing through a nag which he should not have done. Manu is tough to sit at home bc he might be on the retirement tour factor, ppl pay to see him play...

I have less interest in the Spurs if they are not playing their youth TBH. I am probably unique in that I do care about the RS bc I like to see young players develop.

Not sure about the Murray and Lapro quote.
I see it differently. I think the next time Tony rests, one of the 3rd stringers will get the starting spot, and i am pretty sure it will be Lapro.
Those two just needed some time to learn the sets, which the second unit doesn´t really have that much, the second unit still plays what Manu wants most of the time.
I really seemes that this last games where we´ve seen nothing from Lapro and very little from Murray, was to prevent these two for playing without having a real notion on which and how to run some plays. This would change in the future.
I still believe both can be NBA players, Lappro as a substitute (evendoe i don´t like him, i said it here many times) and Murray has a chance to develop into a starter maybe.

[SAGirl]

Not sure about the Murray and Lapro quote.
I see it differently. I think the next time Tony rests, one of the 3rd stringers will get the starting spot, and i am pretty sure it will be Lapro.
Those two just needed some time to learn the sets, which the second unit doesn´t really have that much, the second unit still plays what Manu wants most of the time.
I really seemes that this last games where we´ve seen nothing from Lapro and very little from Murray, was to prevent these two for playing without having a real notion on which and how to run some plays. This would change in the future.
I still believe both can be NBA players, Lappro as a substitute (evendoe i don´t like him, i said it here many times) and Murray has a chance to develop into a starter maybe.I have liked Lapro actually. His court vision and passing I thought were special. I think he's at this point a smarter player and probably steadier than Murray who is so raw, but Murray has so much raw talent that Pop had to see him in action. Murray is here long term... Lapro is likely gone after this season. He's got a one year rental... but I think Pop eventually will play everybody. I would much rather the team focused on Murray. He's definitely the future.

[SAGirl]

Yup. I cautioned this all pre-season. Things will take time and there is going to be a big adjustment. Not just in the level of success we are used to (Wins and Losses - Spurs still doing well there) but this isn't going to be a team that just blows everyone out all the time while managing minutes.

Too many new pieces, too much of a lack of identity and too big of a loss in Tim.... you did say that and you were right.

[TD 21]

The back court rotation isn't bad individually, the problem is the same one it's been for 2+ seasons: the lack of a lead guard period, never mine one for a team with serious championship aspirations.

Suffice it to say, the latter are few and far between, they couldn't have rectified it and it's easy when you have no personal connection to them to say, "get rid of Parker and Ginobili", but far more difficult for those who do. Also consider that the best, somewhat realistic options were Conley, Teague and Hill and they weren't winning a championship with any of them either.

Beyond that, instead of being trend setters, they're now antiquated, for the most part and their two best players aren't leaders or play makers, which has clearly hurt the chemistry (an especially important ingredient considering the inferior star power to the other three elites). Aldridge, Gasol, Parker and Ginobili, have made comments that lead me to believe they're not exactly thrilled watching the Leonard show.



This team has also been generally unlikable, too, since adding Aldridge..he's a career loser with a cancerous style of play.. It was exacerbated this off-season by adding a known diva and pussy like Pau, sadly..very unlikable team, which is sad, considering how much fun the Spurs were in 2012-2014..

Except it started the season before Aldridge was signed (which you acknowledged by saying '12-'14) and coincided with the offense becoming Leonard oriented.

You also claim the talent in the league is better than it's ever been (which I agree with), but somehow almost every player is overrated, soft, a choker, a loser or some combination thereof, so which is it?

[coachmac87]

The back court rotation isn't bad individually, the problem is the same one it's been for 2+ seasons: the lack of a lead guard period, never mine one for a team with serious championship aspirations.

Suffice it to say, the latter are few and far between, they couldn't have rectified it and it's easy when you have no personal connection to them to say, "get rid of Parker and Ginobili", but far more difficult for those who do. Also consider that the best, somewhat realistic options were Conley, Teague and Hill and they weren't winning a championship with any of them either.

Beyond that, instead of being trend setters, they're now antiquated, for the most part and their two best players aren't leaders or play makers, which has clearly hurt the chemistry (an especially important ingredient considering the inferior star power to the other three elites). Aldridge, Gasol, Parker and Ginobili, have made comments that lead me to believe they're not exactly thrilled watching the Leonard show.




Except it started the season before Aldridge was signed (which you acknowledged by saying '12-'14) and coincided with the offense becoming Leonard oriented.

You also claim the talent in the league is better than it's ever been (which I agree with), but somehow almost every player is overrated, soft, a choker, a loser or some combination thereof, so which is it?



What comments are you referring to regarding the rest of the team watching the Leonard show?

[tonight...you]

While TP is up and down and he's shown much more than Manu and that's with Manu barley playing and getting rest days. Manu has fallen off the cliff to start the year.
Manu's just out there having fun now.
He's said it himself. The focus, the desire to not eff up... it's not there. Argie's just wanna have fu-unnnn, oh Manu's just wanna have fu-un.

[kaji157]

I have liked Lapro actually. His court vision and passing I thought were special. I think he's at this point a smarter player and probably steadier than Murray who is so raw, but Murray has so much raw talent that Pop had to see him in action. Murray is here long term... Lapro is likely gone after this season. He's got a one year rental... but I think Pop eventually will play everybody. I would much rather the team focused on Murray. He's definitely the future.

Told you!

[SAGirl]

Told you!
Yup unsurprising... hope he plays well... these guys have no chemistry and it shows.

[kaji157]

Yup unsurprising... hope he plays well... these guys have no chemistry and it shows.

Yep, Kawhi´s tunnerl vision clearly is not the best for a team full of shooters. As that last play showed, 3 open shooters for 3 and he took the contested 2...

[Perry Mason]

What's missing here is that a playmaking 3 a la Lebron can make up for some mediocre guard play. Kawhi is paid to do it...but after some early P&R success in our first few games, I never see him run the P&R anymore.

And it's funny to see tonight that Danny has tried 2 pull-up midrange J's after being run off the line, and he bricked both. Guess Mid is right...

I also think LMA is capable of so much more. The guy is huge. And he can use footwork to back guys down. He just gets tired or doesn't like contact or something. It's annoying.

[gambit1990]

He's real good at draining 3s in garbage time, though.
how did patty do in garbage time tonight?

[midnightpulp]

how did patty do in garbage time tonight?

I already said he's playing well and is a great weapon off the bench this year. Only player keeping the guard rotation from being the worst in the league.

Still not a starter, though. But he's awesome in the microwave Lou Williams/Eddie House role. All contenders have a guy like that. I just hope he doesn't fall off in the playoffs, like he did against OKC last season when he averaged 4 points on .250 shooting. We need him to go above and beyond this year.

[ElNono]

We should have one of these for games on the road vs games at home...

[pgardn]

We are attempting to use Simmons as a backcourt player and letting him handle more. So far horribly mixed results. So we pray.

[dabom]

I already said he's playing well and is a great weapon off the bench this year. Only player keeping the guard rotation from being the worst in the league.

Still not a starter, though. But he's awesome in the microwave Lou Williams/Eddie House role. All contenders have a guy like that. I just hope he doesn't fall off in the playoffs, like he did against OKC last season when he averaged 4 points on .250 shooting. We need him to go above and beyond this year.

Sucks when turd option loses us a series huh? :lmao

[midnightpulp]

We should have one of these for games on the road vs. games at home...

Even with Patty House playing a perfect game, our backcourt still got outscored :lol

This game should only be more cause for concern, not less. I mean, down 13 to the worst team in the West and needed one of Patty's best career games to win it.

Not looking good...at all.

[dabom]

Spurs perfect on the road. We a bad team. :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Sucks when turd option loses us a series huh? :lmao

Parker dominated Patty House in every stat imaginable in that series, advanced and traditional.

Patty was real good at clanking wide open game winners though :tu

[dabom]

Parker dominated Patty House in every stat imaginable in that series, advanced and traditional.

Patty was real good at clanking wide open game winners though :tu

Posttheadvanceones.:tu

[midnightpulp]

Spurs perfect on the road. We a bad team. :lmao

Wanna do 200.00 that we don't reach the WCF?

[dabom]

Wanna do 200.00 that we don't reach the WCF?

Top 12 players healthy before playoffs. We make the WCF. I'll take you.

[ElNono]

Even with Patty House playing a perfect game, our backcourt still got outscored :lol

This game should only be more cause for concern, not less. I mean, down 13 to the worst team in the West and needed one of Patty's best career games to win it.

Not looking good...at all.

:lol I'm just saying, people forget about the games eventually, and look at the whatever-0 record on the road...

Plus, we were missing about half of our backcourt, tbh, in Tony and Manu... and Patty out of all people really came through.

If anything, I thought LMA was lame again tonight, tbh... and Pop was ridiculous with the lineup wiggling...

[dabom]

I'm gonna go take a shower. Brb.

[midnightpulp]

Posttheadvanceones.:tu

http://oi63.tinypic.com/24o4mz4.jpg

BPM:

Parker: -0.3

House: -2.3

Take the L, bro. Patty was garbage against a real playoff team last season.

We'll see what happens this season. House is on fire. Hope it continues.

[midnightpulp]

Top 12 players healthy before playoffs. We make the WCF. I'll take you.

Healthy as in healthy enough to play? Meaning, if Kawhi plays on a tweaked ankle or pinky, he's still officially "healthy."

If so, we got a deal.

[dabom]

http://oi63.tinypic.com/24o4mz4.jpg

BPM:

Parker: -0.3

House: -2.3

Take the L, bro. Patty was garbage against a real playoff team last season.

We'll see what happens this season. House is on fire. Hope it continues.
You do know offensive defensive rating is a team stat right? Dude was playing with Manu Dworst fathead Diaw. :lol

I'll give you the impact on. Although I did say porker shooting for turd option is a lose scenario. I'm still right. And we never started patty.

[dabom]

Healthy as in healthy enough to play? Meaning, if Kawhi plays on a tweaked ankle or pinky, he's still officially "healthy."

If so, we got a deal.

Yeah. We got a deal then. :tu. 2weeks to pay.

[midnightpulp]

You do know offensive defensive rating is a team stat right? Dude was playing with Manu Dworst fathead Diaw. :lol

I'll give you the impact on. Although I did say porker shooting for turd option is a lose scenario. I'm still right. And we never started patty.

It was. But you still have failed to grasp my point, though.

I didn't want Parker being the 3rd option last season. I was hoping Manu or Duncan had one last run, but when it was obvious they didn't, I supported rolling the dice on Parker as the 3rd option because no other role player on the team scored in the double digits with any kind of consistency.

Your lot argued for a "committee," and while that works in theory, it rarely works in practice. Players like knowing a defined offensive pecking order. They like knowing who to go to when 1 and 2 are being over-defended. Committees require too many moving parts.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

So, to summarize, the Spurs have one of the worst backcourt rotations in the NBA. LMA is soft and is a not a net positive. Gasol is terrible, Kawhi's in a slump and constantly gassed. Pop is the worst coach and should be fired.

Good thing they're 15-4 despite all this shit.

[MaNu4Tres]

Good thing they're 15-4 despite all this shit.

Even Sean was talking about this last night.

Dont look at the record. There's maybe a handful of really good to good teams in the NBA. The rest are very marginal to bad, so there's a lot of winnable games.

I've been following the NBA for a while now , and its impossible to quantify by looking at sheer wins and losses, but I agree with Sean.

I can't remember a time in the league where there was so many marginal to bad teams across the board. I have to tune out some games on league pass because the play is atrocious.

Go ahead and hold on to the Spurs' great record like last year if that makes you feel good. Me personally, I'm not content with record garbage and either should Pop or RC -- considering the state of the NBA from a competitive standpoint. This team has a lot of holes that will be exposed by the other 4 good/great teams in the NBA -- that's what matters.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Dont look at the record. Theres maybe a handful of really good to good teams in the NBA. The rest are very marginal to bad, so theres a lot of winnable games.

Ive been following the NBA for a while now and its impossible to quantify by looking at sheer wins and losses, but I agree with Sean.

I cant remember a time in the league where there was so many marginal to bad teams across the board. I have to tune out some games on league pass because the play is atrocious.

I agree. But surely this means our players aren't that bad compared to the rest of the NBA.


Go ahead and hold on to the Spurs' great record like last year if that makes you feel good. Me personally, Im not content with record garbage and either should Pop or RC considering the state of the NBA from a competitive standpoint.

It's a great record for a team with so many new additions and rookies. The execution in crunch time has been very good both offensively and defensively a number of times already. Where they've slipped have been cases of underrating an opponent, being careless, not giving effort, being out of shape, etc., which is not due to a lack of talent.

The Spurs are like 4th favorite for the title and a tier below the best two teams. Their ceiling is likely the second round realistically. I don't see a point to cliff jump because they're not playing like huge favorites. They're not. They're not going to ring unless some 2011 Mavs shit happens and Kawhi turns into a 2003 Duncan or 2011 Dirk.

So, yes, it makes me feel good watching them win games.

[MaNu4Tres]

I agree. But surely this means our players aren't that bad compared to the rest of the NBA.

That's the problem with the mindset of our society. People always compare shit to the average or to other people who are lazy, undisciplined or content. Whether it be comparing the average salary for a college graduate vs. non graduate or comparing your life to someone who obviously fell short of their potential. That's why most people end of falling way short of their potential in life -- they've compared their results to the average of society their whole life. Same concept and ideology can be applied with the NBA. " Oh well we aren't that bad compared to the rest of the NBA". Fuck all that. Some of us like to compare them to the top two teams in the league and critique them in ways we see they need to improve on in order to get back there.




It's a great record for a team with so many new additions and rookies. The execution in crunch time has been very good both offensively and defensively a number of times already. Where they've slipped have been cases of underrating an opponent, being careless, not giving effort, being out of shape, etc., which is not due to a lack of talent.

The Spurs are like 4th favorite for the title and a tier below the best two teams. Their ceiling is likely the second round realistically. I don't see a point to cliff jump because they're not playing like huge favorites. They're not. They're not going to ring unless some 2011 Mavs shit happens and Kawhi turns into a 2003 Duncan or 2011 Dirk.

So, yes, it makes me feel good watching them win games.

They have the same core from last year except instead of Duncan, West, Diaw they have Gasol, Dedmon and Lee. The rest of the core, Kawhi - Aldridge, Green, Parker -- Patty/ Manu and Simmons/ Anderson are the same. It doesn't make me feel great because I see the ingredients during the course of the games that has led to the wins. One piece of advice: Always look in the ingredients before you eat up garbage that tastes good.

[TD 21]

What comments are you referring to regarding the rest of the team watching the Leonard show?

Comments to the effect of lack of ball movement/shots and not needing Leonard to think he needs to score 30 every game, among other things. Beyond that, it's little things here and there that give it away, like a wry smile to a "what do you need to do to get (insert player) going?" question.

[Kawhitstorm]

Also consider that the best, somewhat realistic options were Conley, Teague and Hill and they weren't winning a championship with any of them either.

Injuries aside, Conley has been as good as any point guard not named WestBrick/HarDone. He cooked Choke-P3 in both match-ups even when the Choke-P was the leading MVP candidate & the Cripples were destroying teams.


Aldridge, Gasol, Parker and Ginobili, have made comments that lead me to believe they're not exactly thrilled watching the Leonard show

Maybe they should actually hold their own before they open their mouth & complain about ANY of their teammates.:rolleyes (All of them have essentially been outplayed by their backups w/ 15mill Turnobili not being any better than 800K Simmons: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html#advanced::21 :lol)


Except it started the season before Aldridge was signed (which you acknowledged by saying '12-'14) and coincided with the offense becoming Leonard oriented.

You mean the season where everyone was injured & Pop was calling 4-down plays for Tim.:lol

I love how folks act like Kawhi hijacked the offense like Kirby when in reality Pop put a greater share of the offensive burden on him when Evita/Enrique/Bobo/Shitter went out of commission. It's not like Kawhi can't play at an MVP level in a motion offense b/c the 2014 Finals didn't happen.:rolleyes

[Kawhitstorm]

Comments to the effect of lack of ball movement/shots and not needing Leonard to think he needs to score 30 every game, among other things. Beyond that, it's little things here and there that give it away, like a wry smile to a "what do you need to do to get (insert player) going?" question.

-Porker was also unhappy when Danny was hitting 3s & taking his shine b/c *SURPRISE* players have egos.

-Softridge left the Blazers b/c his ego couldn't handle playing second fiddle to Lillard

-Pau left the Lakers then turned down the Spurs b/c he still wanted to be featured in the offense.

-Manure is a senile old man who STILL wants to be a dynamic playmaker instead of a spotup shooter

[gambit1990]

parker is a much bigger problem than green.

[apalisoc_9]

Injuries aside, Conley has been as good as any point guard not named WestBrick/HarDone. He cooked Choke-P3 in both match-ups even when the Choke-P was the leading MVP candidate & the Cripples were destroying teams.



Maybe they should actually hold their own before they open their mouth & complain about ANY of their teammates.:rolleyes (All of them have essentially been outplayed by their backups w/ 15mill Turnobili not being any better than 800K Simmons: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html#advanced::21 :lol)



You mean the season where everyone was injured & Pop was calling 4-down plays for Tim.:lol

I love how folks act like Kawhi hijacked the offense like Kirby when in reality Pop put a greater share of the offensive burden on him when Evita/Enrique/Bobo/Shitter went out of commission. It's not like Kawhi can't play at an MVP level in a motion offense b/c the 2014 Finals didn't happen.:rolleyes

Exactly. Why does a quadro of player with an average of 36 year old demand so much individual gratitude before actually going along with Pops idea.

These guys arent 20 something star players that deserve coddling. They've played poorly and in no way or form should they be asking for more than just their current roles and responsibilities.

They're ruining the team chemstiry.

[Kawhitstorm]

Exactly. Why does a quadro of player with an average of 36 year old demand so much individual gratitude before actually going along with Pops idea.

These guys arent 20 something star players that deserve coddling. They've played poorly and in no way or form should they be asking for more than just their current roles and responsibilities.

They're ruining the team chemstiry.

Pop might have to send a couple of them home ala Stephen Jackson.

[TD 21]

Injuries aside, Conley has been as good as any point guard not named WestBrick/HarDone. He cooked Choke-P3 in both match-ups even when the Choke-P was the leading MVP candidate & the Cripples were destroying teams.



Maybe they should actually hold their own before they open their mouth & complain about ANY of their teammates.:rolleyes (All of them have essentially been outplayed by their backups w/ 15mill Turnobili not being any better than 800K Simmons: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html#advanced::21 :lol)



You mean the season where everyone was injured & Pop was calling 4-down plays for Tim.:lol

I love how folks act like Kawhi hijacked the offense like Kirby when in reality Pop put a greater share of the offensive burden on him when Evita/Enrique/Bobo/Shitter went out of commission. It's not like Kawhi can't play at an MVP level in a motion offense b/c the 2014 Finals didn't happen.:rolleyes


I know, but Conley was more than likely playing at an unsustainable level (though possible, like Parker, he all of a sudden reached a new level a decade into his career, it's also highly unlikely) and is frail.

I don't think it's so much complaining as a realization that they're not going to reach their potential that way.

Yeah, the same Tim who carried Leonard's supposed top five player ass in the playoffs.

I'm not saying Leonard hijacked the offense on his own volition or is inherently selfish, but the aesthetics started to go by the wayside that season, which coincided with him becoming the featured player.

:lol MVP level for 3 games, with little creative responsibility, against a team not geared to stop him.



:cry Leonard is the GOAT and has no flaws.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol MVP level for 3 games, with little creative responsibility, against a team not geared to stop him.

:rolleyes

You know what teams don't when they don't have the personnel to guard a guy 1-on-1, it's called double-teams.....just ask Doc.


L.A. coach Doc Rivers sent a double-team at Leonard almost every time he touched the ball on the block.

[TD 21]

:rolleyes

You know what teams don't when they don't have the personnel to guard a guy 1-on-1, it's called double-teams.....just ask Doc.

:rolleyes We were talking about the '14 Finals.

[midnightpulp]

Thank God for our frontline. The backcourt rotation got outscored by 9, and they used one more player :lol

That said, Patty continues to be solid and Manu had his one good game of the week.

[Chinook]

The Spurs are paying a ton for their front court. It's supposed to be their strength. I explained that to you while you were cowering at GS' advanced stats over the summer. Glad to see you're coming around.

[midnightpulp]

The Spurs are paying a ton for their front court. It's supposed to be their strength. I explained that to you while you were cowering at GS' advanced stats over the summer. Glad to see you're coming around.

And D-League is supposed to be a "top 3 and D guy" with "all-star level" metrics.

What's happening this year? He can't stop a nosebleed.

I mean, I routinely expect these 1-4, 2-8 nights from him, but the least he could do is not let Bradley Beal go scrotum deep.

[Kawhitstorm]

:rolleyes We were talking about the '14 Finals.

Porker wasn't going to let him eat, Diaw had to be put into the starting lineup to make that happen.:wakeup

[Chinook]

And D-League is supposed to be a "top 3 and D guy" with "all-star level" metrics.

What's happening this year? He can't stop a nosebleed.

I mean, I routinely expect these 1-4, 2-8 nights from him, but the least he could do is not let Bradley Beal go scrotum deep.

You're almost distilled Spurstalk. Complaining that the back court was marginally outscored was bad enough. But acting like having "one more player" makes any difference at all takes the cake.

Trying to make a hate on Danny shtick is like bragging about your MySpace page. Maybe you think it's become retro or something.

[midnightpulp]

You're almost distilled Spurstalk. Complaining that the back court was marginally outscored was bad enough. But acting like having "one more player" makes any difference at all takes the cake.

Trying to make a hate on Danny shtick is like bragging about your MySpace page. Maybe you think it's become retro or something.

Being outscored by 9 points despite using one more player isn't being "marginally" outscored. It's being blown out. An NBA team with a point differential of -9 would be considered one of the worst teams in history.

My "hate" isn't shtick. I just happen to think Danny's offensive limitations are something that is hurting the team. And I still can't fathom why he didn't work to add that pump fake/jumper I always hammer on about. Again, 4 extra points from Danny via midrange jumpers would be a huge boon. But yeah, yeah. It's not his "role" (even though that addition to his game wouldn't compromise his offensive role at all).

Furthermore, his defense has fallen off this season, as well.

[Robz4000]

Green was awful tonight, no other way to shake it. However, he is far from the problem; unless Manu and Patty are creating like tonight the Spurs will struggle generating offense with their current guard rotation.

[SAGirl]

I think Danny had his first game he struggled. He had been playing superb prior to this game.
Pau has had several bad games, a 0 scoring game, a couple of very low scoring games, he's gotten benched already at least 3 times.
LMA was horrendous, absolutely ghastly against the Mavs and he hasn't been exactly dominating as consistently as he should and he came into the season out of shape.
Manu has been extremely unpredictable. He had a flashback game but it's being overlooked how much he had been struggling offensively before.
Pau and LMA together cannot defend the average PnR (never mind elite).
Tony has been extremely streaky as well, and has had some stinkers. However, he's been injured and I find it hard to really criticize him personally, bc I am actually more concerned that he's going to be more brittle than he has previously been and that is a red alarm bc behind him there is only Lapro and Murray... how do you think they are doing?
Kawhi has had his games he has struggled, Simmons can't shoot, Kyle is still hesitant to shoot so we don't even know where the improvements on his shot seemingly went, Bertans can't grab a board, Lee is a C on offense, but plays like a PF on defense, Dedmon still fouls and for some reason gets on Pop's bad side, he has issues at times finishing at the rim as well.

Yea, Danny is not flawless, but neither is everyone else. Guys have roles in the team and he's done his fairly well. He just had a game he struggled. As every player is bound to have games they struggle no one is totally free of criticism. I guess it is fine if you don't like Danny and that is that.

[GSH]

Simmons didn't have an official FGA. But he got to take 6 FT's. And he had an assist, 2 steals, and a block. He got stripped once, heading for the basket, but he hauled ass up the floor and made a great defensive play to make up for it.

I still think he's passing up shots because they want him to work on drive-and-kick. But they need SOME shooting threat from him. If he can come up with even 6-7 points a game from the field, I'd be totally happy with his performance.

There's a part of me that keeps wanting to believe that Manu has just been in a slump, and that he will suddenly kick it into gear and play the way he did tonight. I know it's not realistic to expect, at his age, but it's hard to let go of. Still, when he's playing like this, it's really fun to watch. And he's still dishing out the dimes, and pulling down rebounds at a very respectable clip.

I know a lot of people on ST aren't happy about Lap, but he's getting some really good minutes going against NBA starters. I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they would say that they're satisfied with where he's at. And the experience he's getting will make the Spurs better overall, at the point.

[SAGirl]

I know a lot of people on ST aren't happy about Lap, but he's getting some really good minutes going against NBA starters. I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they would say that they're satisfied with where he's at. And the experience he's getting will make the Spurs better overall, at the point.

I don't know how it was prior to 2012-13, but this season there is simply not enough garbage time to get guys experience and what few minutes there have been, there is too many rookies together (also unusual) and Murray needs those minutes too. So, he's had to play minutes in actual games right off the bat and is lacking chemistry. I think he's been fine for rook in that situation so it's good that he's a bit older and more experienced than the traditional rook. Do you think Spurs look for anyone in the buyout market or a trade? I don't think so, specially if they think Nico can make do for those ocassions Tony is sitting.

Cricitism from fans aside, I think Pop is getting exactly what he thought he would get from these guys..

I keep going to just Tony and Manu being old and unreliable. No one is going to make up for that and they are both well compensated.

[midnightpulp]

I think Danny had his first game he struggled. He had been playing superb prior to this game.
Pau has had several bad games, a 0 scoring game, a couple of very low scoring games, he's gotten benched already at least 3 times.
LMA was horrendous, absolutely ghastly against the Mavs and he hasn't been exactly dominating as consistently as he should and he came into the season out of shape.
Manu has been extremely unpredictable. He had a flashback game but it's being overlooked how much he had been struggling offensively before.
Pau and LMA together cannot defend the average PnR (never mind elite).
Tony has been extremely streaky as well, and has had some stinkers. However, he's been injured and I find it hard to really criticize him personally, bc I am actually more concerned that he's going to be more brittle than he has previously been and that is a red alarm bc behind him there is only Lapro and Murray... how do you think they are doing?
Kawhi has had his games he has struggled, Simmons can't shoot, Kyle is still hesitant to shoot so we don't even know where the improvements on his shot seemingly went, Bertans can't grab a board, Lee is a C on offense, but plays like a PF on defense, Dedmon still fouls and for some reason gets on Pop's bad side, he has issues at times finishing at the rim as well.

Yea, Danny is not flawless, but neither is everyone else. Guys have roles in the team and he's done his fairly well. He just had a game he struggled. As every player is bound to have games they struggle no one is totally free of criticism. I guess it is fine if you don't like Danny and that is that.

He had a 2 point game on 1-4 shooting against the Magic. A 3-9 game for 8 points against the Rockets, and only 4 double-digit or more scoring games out of 12.

Danny should average double digits per game and be a threat for 15+ every night. I'll hear "it's not his role!" again for the 1000th time, but the state of the backcourt should necessitate an increased scoring role for him. So it's either: He never developed a useful secondary weapon where Pop would have confidence in increasing his role or Pop neglects him.

Way I see it. Danny should get ten shots per game in his spots. When Danny is on, he'll go something like 18 points on 6-12 shooting, making 5 threes, a two, and maybe an FT or two. But he's not going to have 10 or 12 clean open 3 point looks per game on most nights, so he needs to develop that midrange jumper I've been talking about when he gets closed out on quickly. An "average" Danny game should be 10 points on 4-10ish shooting, with 2 made threes and 2 made twos coming via that jumper.

"Come on. You're nit picking. He's averaging 8.0pgg. What's 2 points?"

2 extra points added to a scoring average is a big plus in the NBA. Imagine if every rotation player added 2 points to their PPG?

There should be no conceivable reason he can't add some kind of secondary option to his repertoire.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Backcourt-

Tony Parker - lost several steps. Still sets up offense well and does his job as a starting PG except for defense which fell off a cliff a couple of seasons ago. But still an average PG wrt rest of league.

Patty Mills - energizer bunny and one of the best sixth-seventh men in the league. Can efficiently run offense, tries hard on defense even if overmatched due to height.

Nicolas Laprovittola - useful backup PG who holds his own and is not a bad backup at all. Has some verve in his game too.

Dejounte Murray - callow, wont play much.

Danny Green - elite defender, among top 3 SG defenders in league (along with Butler who plays SF now, Klay Thompson). And useful 3 and D player. Probably most valuable such 3 & D player in league considering his salary.

Manu Ginobili - Nearly 40, but is there anyone more cannier than him in the league. Still works hard on defense and on a non-off day, is as good as he can get to be as a P&R operator and a bench spark plug.

Jonathon Simmons - Athletic, a key missing piece from last year's playoffs. Still learning his way on how to play in control, but a keeper.

All things considered, the Spurs' backcourt is a nice mix of experience, athleticism and variety (inside and outside games, P&R vs half court, etc). It rates well alongside other good backcourts.

[SAGirl]

He had a 2 point game on 1-4 shooting against the Magic. A 3-9 game for 8 points against the Rockets, and only 4 double-digit or more scoring games out of 12.

Danny should average double digits per game and be a threat for 15+ every night. I'll hear "it's not his role!" again for the 1000th time, but the state of the backcourt should necessitate an increased scoring role for him. So it's either: He never developed a useful secondary weapon where Pop would have confidence in increasing his role or Pop neglects him.

Way I see it. Danny should get ten shots per game in his spots. When Danny is on, he'll go something like 18 points on 6-12 shooting, making 5 threes, a two, and maybe an FT or two. But he's not going to have 10 or 12 clean open 3 point looks per game on most nights, so he needs to develop that midrange jumper I've been talking about when he gets closed out on quickly. An "average" Danny game should be 10 points on 4-10ish shooting, with 2 made threes and 2 made twos coming via that jumper.

"Come on. You're nit picking. He's averaging 8.0pgg. What's 2 points?"

2 extra points added to a scoring average is a big plus in the NBA. Imagine if every rotation player added 2 points to their PPG?

There should be no conceivable reason he can't add some kind of secondary option to his repertoire.
When he's literally the last guy you should be looking to for offense in your starting group it's hard to complain for me about him right now. He scores off actions by others. Sometimes he will go off but as he's a shooter and doesn't get to the line, nor forces things (unless it's a shot clock violation threat), scoring from him is by nature going to be streaky and really depends on others finding him in good spots and defenses being worried more about others than him. He has never been a versatile "scorer," nor is he going to be one. I bet he works at it, but it's not a big asset, nor does he take enough shots of that nature for it to matter. You already have way too many midrange shooters in that group, and not enough guys who are tough nosed on defense. He just struggled in this game, the first one he struggled of like 12 he's played this season. Overall, he's less limited than he used to be. He's capable of moving the ball within the offense. It's simply because you can't look past his flaws or want him to be someone he's not that you get on him.

If he had no flaws, he'd be a top player in the league. I am fine with who he is as a player and appreciate what he brings. If you had better production from your PG it would not matter that much how limited he is on offense. It's Tony's decline (and Lapro being a 3rd string sub) that highlights that.

[midnightpulp]

When he's literally the last guy you should be looking to for offense in your starting group it's hard to complain for me about him right now. He scores off actions by others. Sometimes he will go off but as he's a shooter and doesn't get to the line, nor forces things (unless it's a shot clock violation threat), scoring from him is by nature going to be streaky and really depends on others finding him in good spots and defenses being worried more about others than him. He has never been a versatile "scorer," nor is he going to be one. I bet he works at it, but it's not a big asset, nor does he take enough shots of that nature for it to matter. You already have way too many midrange shooters in that group, and not enough guys who are tough nosed on defense. He just struggled in this game, the first one he struggled of like 12 he's played this season. Overall, he's less limited than he used to be. He's capable of moving the ball within the offense. It's simply because you can't look past his flaws or want him to be someone he's not that you get on him.

If he had no flaws, he'd be a top player in the league. I am fine with who he is as a player and appreciate what he brings. If you had better production from your PG it would not matter that much how limited he is on offense. It's Tony's decline (and Lapro being a 3rd string sub) that highlights that.

You're overcomplicating things.

Pump faking a closing defender and taking a midrange shot won't demand any type of overhaul to his game or to the offensive scheme. It merely gives Danny an additional way to score when he's run off the 3 point line.

[SAGirl]

You're overcomplicating things.

Pump faking a closing defender and taking a midrange shot won't demand any type of overhaul to his game or to the offensive scheme. It merely gives Danny an additional way to score when he's run off the 3 point line.
Instead of doing that he's been setting up others just fine so far. In fact his assists are up.

I'd rather he do a side step dribble if he must and take another three like Mills does sometimes, since he seems to be a shooter that likes to have his feet set and having to dribble IMO is a reason for the lost effectiveness. But there are many things he can do that don't require taking that shot like looking to set someone else up or giving up the ball for a cut... I have accepted it's not a part of his game.

[apalisoc_9]

You're overcomplicating things.

Pump faking a closing defender and taking a midrange shot won't demand any type of overhaul to his game or to the offensive scheme. It merely gives Danny an additional way to score when he's run off the 3 point line.

He only plays about 29mpg mid. And he plays those minutes with a top 5 player in the league, two big that pouts and defense struggles if their not involved in the offense...and a PG with a tendency to hero things out even at age 34 and being one of the worst starting PGs in the league.

Their is only so much possessions in a game when you're playing with those set of players. If One of Gasol or Aldridge is out and Parker is not Parker..maybe.

Also, when he does play with the bench Bertans, Mills, Lee are all gunners..guys that are asked to score.

Not enough possession.

[SAGirl]

He only plays about 29mpg mid. And he plays those minutes with a top 5 player in the league, two big that pouts and defense struggles if their not involved in the offense...and a PG with a tendency to hero things out even at age 34 and being one of the worst starting PGs in the league.

Their is only so much possessions in a game when you're playing with those set of players. If One of Gasol or Aldridge is out and Parker is not Parker..maybe.

Also, when he does play with the bench Bertans, Mills, Lee are all gunners..guys that are asked to score.

Not enough possession.
I agree and if someone must take a midrange shot you would prefer that shot to come from someone else IMO. There is rarely a need for a Danny midrange unless the shot clock is running out.

[HarlemHeat37]

Looking into it, Spurs' backcourt isn't that bad if you include Patty and Manu, tbh..probably around 16th-17th in the league, which isn't that bad, considering they've built the team around the frontcourt, have 2 players making virtually nothing compared to their peers(Green and Mills) and gave out 2 loyalty contracts(Parker and Ginobili)..

It won't be good enough to win a title, since every team needs a dynamic PG nowadays, but still..

[midnightpulp]

He only plays about 29mpg mid. And he plays those minutes with a top 5 player in the league, two big that pouts and defense struggles if their not involved in the offense...and a PG with a tendency to hero things out even at age 34 and being one of the worst starting PGs in the league.

Their is only so much possessions in a game when you're playing with those set of players. If One of Gasol or Aldridge is out and Parker is not Parker..maybe.

Also, when he does play with the bench Bertans, Mills, Lee are all gunners..guys that are asked to score.

Not enough possession.

He's actually giving up possessions, which is my point. Danny should be taking 8 shots per game minimum. When he's like 1-4, he's being run off the 3 point line a lot and forced to give the ball up, resulting in a broken play (since the original call was probably to set up a Danny three ball).

He (or Pop) needs to establish himself more. If scoring remains as unbalanced as it is between the starting frontcourt and the backcourt, opposing teams will just pack. I think this is a primary reason why Kawhi's raw FG% is down, too. People always think I'm slighting Danny, when in fact I believe he can create another gear for himself. And of course Parker is a big reason for this. Him being a weak scoring threat pretty much stalls everything.

[SAGirl]

I don't see as many plays as you think for Danny... TBH.. its Kiwi w the ball, then LMA, then Pau, then Tony, rinse and repeat.

[midnightpulp]

Sans Patty House, this shitshow of a backcourt rotation is a combined 2-17 for 4 points :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

Sans Patty House, this shitshow of a backcourt rotation is a combined 2-17 for 4 points :lmao

Groce....

Worse is that most of their shots tonight specially Ginobili were wide open shots.

[apalisoc_9]

If our backcourt cant even produce when opens shots are available...I dont know what to say.

[midnightpulp]

If our backcourt cant even produce when opens shots are available...I dont know what to say.

And those shots will be there. Opposing teams will just start packing the inside to contain LMA/Kawhi/Pau because no one fears D-League, Manure, Simmons, Porker burning them.

[apalisoc_9]

And those shots will be there. Opposing teams will just start packing the inside to contain LMA/Kawhi/Pau because no one fears D-League, Manure, Simmons, Porker burning them.

This is why Pop is despertly killing the Kawhi post ups so he can concentrate on providing perimter scoring and Aldridge and Gasol/Lee frontcourt scoring

[midnightpulp]

This is why Pop is despertly killing the Kawhi post ups so he can concentrate on providing perimter scoring and Aldridge and Gasol/Lee frontcourt scoring

I don't see how you can really run any post-oriented offense right now when this backcourt can't shoot, penetrate, nor playmake. For once, I can't put anything on Pop. I have little clue what kind of "system" you can run when your guards are a 34 year old who plays like he's 45, a system spot shooter with zero athleticism, handles, and in-between game, a 60 year old, an ultra raw "monkeyballer," and an undersized PG who plays more like an SG.