Kawhi's offensive game is "antiquated."

[SpursforSix]

Yeah I dont get the Kawhi bashing. Pop still wants to run Parker and Manu out there as major contributors of this team.

Spurstalk - "where every player sucks"

[TD 21]

I've been saying this for a few years and it goes for Aldridge too.

You just can't generate enough offense to win a championship in this era, if your top players are mostly mid range/post up players, with below average play making.

Leonard can definitely be the best player on a championship team, but not the primary ball handler.

As much as many of us (myself included) complain about Pop the last few years, style of play is mostly predicated on the skill sets of your best players. The "beautiful game" wasn't because Pop stressed ball movement (what coach doesn't?), it was partially because the big three naturally played that way, as did many of the role players and partially because with Duncan post prime, they could no longer out superstar the other elites, so they had to in order to beat those teams.

This team has been a more conventional team (even with an antiquated style) since then, only they still have inferior star power to the other elites.

[SAGirl]

847309380680687618

[RD2191]

People don't fucking get it. A star PG would only fix the problem in the sense that the non-Kawhi half of the offense would be better. It won't actually make the Kawhi half better. I feel like it's been years now that the Spurs have had these same problems with Kawhiso, and so many posters ignore it.

It very obviously hurts the D to have a wing so low for most possessions. When Kawhi makes his shots, it's easier to adjust to the poor defensive spacing. But in a game like last night where he misses or turns it over repeatedly, it consistently gets the Spurs in bad positions. You need two perimeter players above the FTLE to have defensive integrity, and too often, Kawhiso leads to either four players below the line or a big and a small as the above-FTLE players. This lack of integrity is the primary reason why continues to have a horrible defensive on-off.

There are games where everybody else sucks and Kawhi has to keep pounding the rock. But this wasn't one of those games. Leonard has to understand that sometimes he doesn't have the hot hand and that he needs to find the guys who do. Tim, Tony and Manu all understand/understood that and gave the ball to role-players at times even at the expense of their own touches. Kawhi has to develop that level of understanding to be the type of stars those guys were.

This is also on Pop, because independent of Kawhi's decision-making, Pop should have run plays for other guys. I don't know if he ran any non-OOB play all night. He tries to take control at really pointless times, but then when the team is floundering, he seems to be unable to do anything past benching guys (even if those guys aren't the particular problem). I want to say he's just saving up plays for the WCF, but as we all know, the Spurs may well not even get there.

Lol. You're repeating the same stupid shit you were saying last night.

[RD2191]

Kawhi lost a game and all ya bitch like little faggots. Literally 1 game all year. That's it. :lol

But stats! Stupid fucking faggots. We have the 2nd best record in the league behind a team with 4 all stars and two MVPs. Kawhi should be the MVP, he's carried these sacks of shit all year.

[dabom]

But stats! Stupid fucking faggots. We have the 2nd best record in the league behind a team with 4 all stars and two MVPs. Kawhi should be the MVP, he's carried these sacks of shit all year.

:lol

[midnightpulp]

so you're saying he needs someone better than tony parker... the same tony parker that you made threads so you can rave about him?

you have no foresight.

:lmao

It always comes back to Parker with you. Holy shit you're obsessed.

And you still fail to understand why I supported Parker. Even Dabom gets it. Look, dipshit. This team never developed nor signed a young penetrating PG who can also do some playmaking. Hell, they didn't develop an SG that is a penetration threat aside from Simmons who is way too rough to trust. So where does that leave us? Relying on Parker. Me being a Spurs fan over a player fan, of course I'm going to support him and hope he finds some of his prime form. He's shown flashes going back to last year, but it's obvious he's done.

"Patty, Patty, Patty..."

Get it through your thick fuckin' skull that Patty isn't the solution to this problem. He can't penetrate and is a one dimensional undersized Reggie Miller clone. He's a bench sparkplug. That's it. Okay. Say your dream comes true and Patty starts. What happens to the bench? Oh yeah, your favorite player "Porker" leading a group he's totally incompatible with.

You're the one who lacks foresight and fuckin' commonsense on top of that.

[midnightpulp]

I have never seen OP to be correct tbh. :lol

"Patty gonna show up in the playoffs. Porker ain't no third option!"

http://oi63.tinypic.com/nfi87a.jpg

I'm right the majority of the time, and I'll be right in this case. Post-up/midrange centric teams are a recipe for failure in the modern NBA. It's going to take a HISTORIC effort by Kawhi and LMA to give the Spurs a shot.

[Chinook]

Lol. You're repeating the same stupid shit you were saying last night.

It wasn't stupid then, and it's not stupid now. That you don't seem to be able to see the larger picture of the offense doesn't make any difference.

But please, before "Tell Pop to fix it then, because that's what message boards are for."

[dabom]

"Patty gonna show up in the playoffs. Porker ain't no third option!"

http://oi63.tinypic.com/nfi87a.jpg

I'm right the majority of the time, and I'll be right in this case. Post-up/midrange centric teams are a recipe for failure in the modern NBA. It's going to take a HISTORIC effort by Kawhi and LMA to give the Spurs a shot.

Every fucking year you say porker is good. :lmao

[SpursforSix]

Every fucking year you say porker is good. :lmao

#Phoenixrising

[dabom]

#Phoenixrising

:lol

[midnightpulp]

I've been saying this for a few years and it goes for Aldridge too.

You just can't generate enough offense to win a championship in this era, if your top players are mostly mid range/post up players, with below average play making.

Leonard can definitely be the best player on a championship team, but not the primary ball handler.

As much as many of us (myself included) complain about Pop the last few years, style of play is mostly predicated on the skill sets of your best players. The "beautiful game" wasn't because Pop stressed ball movement (what coach doesn't?), it was partially because the big three naturally played that way, as did many of the role players and partially because with Duncan post prime, they could no longer out superstar the other elites, so they had to in order to beat those teams.

This team has been a more conventional team (even with an antiquated style) since then, only they still have inferior star power to the other elites.

This simple fact eludes many of the fanboys here.

PPS of all shots:

http://pp2.s3.amazonaws.com/3f9844b7eb4f4366/18b38a5d8ceb4d9f8fc47e4de4bfd02d.jpg

I posted earlier that Kawhi takes over 50% of his shots from the "green" areas. I don't care how efficient he is currently from there, it's likely not sustainable and teams, especially in a playoff series, will be content with him "beating" them from those spots. It's not an "insult" against Kawhi, it's simple math.

Kawhi averages 18 shots per game, so about 9 of those are mid range shots. Kawhi's FG% from the midrange is about 50%, which truly is an amazing mark. Kobe, who was always lauded as the "best midrange shooter in the game," averaged about 42% from those areas. Dirk was another deadeye from those spots. Averaged about 46%. So Kawhi produces exactly 1 PPS from the midrange. All a 3 point shooter (like Harden or Curry) has to do to equalize Kawhi's production is shoot 33%. And the midrange shots Kawhi usually takes are actually harder than the type of screened 3 pointers Harden and Curry take.

Furthermore, midrange offenses don't "pressure" defenses compared to all the chasing you have to do to run the Golden State's and Houston's off the line or the collapsing you have to do against penetrators.

It's just not going to work.

[midnightpulp]

Every fucking year you say porker is good. :lmao

I don't remember supporting him in '15.

I was right. Parker was pretty good against OKC. 11 and 6 on 47% shooting. How'd your boy House do? Wasn't he supposed to "show up" for the playoffs? :lol

Parker finally is done, however.

[SpursforSix]

This simple fact eludes many of the fanboys here.

PPS of all shots:

http://pp2.s3.amazonaws.com/3f9844b7eb4f4366/18b38a5d8ceb4d9f8fc47e4de4bfd02d.jpg

I posted earlier that Kawhi takes over 50% of his shots from the "green" areas. I don't care how efficient he is currently from there, it's likely not sustainable and teams, especially in a playoff series, will be content with him "beating" them from those spots. It's not an "insult" against Kawhi, it's simple math.

Kawhi averages 18 shots per game, so about 9 of those are mid range shots. Kawhi's FG% from the midrange is about 50%, which truly is an amazing mark. Kobe, who was always lauded as the "best midrange shooter in the game," averaged about 42% from those areas. Dirk was another deadeye from those spots. Averaged about 46%. So Kawhi produces exactly 1 PPS from the midrange. All a 3 point shooter (like Harden or Curry) has to do to equalize Kawhi's production is shoot 33%. And the midrange shots Kawhi usually takes are actually harder than the type of screened 3 pointers Harden and Curry take.

Furthermore, midrange offenses don't "pressure" defenses compared to all the chasing you have to do to run the Golden State's and Houston's off the line or the collapsing you have to do against penetrators.

It's just not going to work.

They've got the second best record in the NBA. Kobe did all right. Quit being gay.

[midnightpulp]

They've got the second best record in the NBA. Kobe did all right. Quit being gay.

How'd the second best record work out last year?

Second best record :lmao

Who gives a shit.

[SpursforSix]

How'd the second best record work out last year?

Second best record :lmao

Who gives a shit.

I get it...ring or bust. But Leonard's been pretty damn good with the midrange game and carried the team in his back to a damn good record. Not his fault the team can't find consistent three point shooting. His game is on point.

[midnightpulp]

I get it...ring or bust. But Leonard's been pretty damn good with the midrange game and carried the team in his back to a damn good record. Not his fault the team can't find consistent three point shooting. His game is on point.

He's responsible for some of that issue. Shooting about .290 from deep going back to Feb. 1.

[UZER]

How'd the second best record work out last year?

Second best record :lmao

Who gives a shit.

How did the best record work out last year?

[SpursforSix]

He's responsible for some of that issue. Shooting about .290 from deep going back to Feb. 1.

I don't think he's ever going to be a knock down three point shooter. He'll have stretches where he's very good but imo, he's just not built to shoot the three. The longer someone is, the more motion that goes into the shot. That being said, I think he could be on the same level as Jordan and Lebron. He'll be dangerous enough from the arc that the defense will have to cover him. That opens up the drive. If he can't get to the rim, then he's got a damn good midrange shot or post up. I really think you're way off in this.

Not to mention, he's made discernible improvements every year and may prove me wrong on the theee point shot.

[SpursforSix]

How did the best record work out last year?
:lol

[FkLA]

Kawhi averages 18 shots per game, so about 9 of those are mid range shots. Kawhi's FG% from the midrange is about 50%, which truly is an amazing mark. Kobe, who was always lauded as the "best midrange shooter in the game," averaged about 42% from those areas. Dirk was another deadeye from those spots. Averaged about 46%. So Kawhi produces exactly 1 PPS from the midrange. All a 3 point shooter (like Harden or Curry) has to do to equalize Kawhi's production is shoot 33%. And the midrange shots Kawhi usually takes are actually harder than the type of screened 3 pointers Harden and Curry take.

Wait, so Kawhi struggles for two months from deep and all of a sudden he isn't a three-point shooter? You refer to Harden and Curry as three-point shooters as if Kawhi is Derozan or some shit. Also I don't get why you discredit Kawhi's midrange game just because those shots are hard for everyone else. You yourself pointed out that Kawhi is shooting significantly higher from midrange than they are from three, so no those shots aren't harder for Kawhi than threes are for them.

Plus Harden and Curry have shown a tendency to come down to earth in the playoffs. Their styles aren't without flaws.

[FkLA]

I don't think he's ever going to be a knock down three point shooter. He'll have stretches where he's very good but imo, he's just not built to shoot the three. The longer someone is, the more motion that goes into the shot. That being said, I think he could be on the same level as Jordan and Lebron. He'll be dangerous enough from the arc that the defense will have to cover him. That opens up the drive. If he can't get to the rim, then he's got a damn good midrange shot or post up. I really think you're way off in this.

Not to mention, he's made discernible improvements every year and may prove me wrong on the theee point shot.

WTF are we forgetting that he shot 44% last year? Or that he was pretty much at 40% this year prior to his struggles these past two months? God damn talk about recency bias. He's already a better three-point shooter than other midrange guys like MJ/Kirby ever were. He's a better shooter than Bron too.

[midnightpulp]

How did the best record work out last year?

Exactly. Regular season records are pretty meaningless.

[midnightpulp]

Wait, so Kawhi struggles for two months from deep and all of a sudden he isn't a three-point shooter? You refer to Harden and Curry as three-point shooters as if Kawhi is Derozan or some shit. Also I don't get why you discredit Kawhi's midrange game just because those shots are hard for everyone else. You yourself pointed out that Kawhi is shooting significantly higher from midrange than they are from three, so no those shots aren't harder for Kawhi than threes are for them.

Plus Harden and Curry have shown a tendency to come down to earth in the playoffs. Their styles aren't without flaws.

I'm not discrediting anything.

Again, simple math. 50% from midrange=33% from downtown. Curry takes over half his shots from three (54%). Harden takes 48% of his shots from three. Curry shoots 40% from three. Harden shoots 36%. Thus, Curry averages 12 points for 10 three point shots, Harden averages about 11 points for 10 shots, while Kawhi averages 10 points for 10 midrange shots. A midrange centric player can't win the "efficiency war" against 3 point centric players. Just not going to happen.

"Well, Kawhi is a deadeye from downtown."

Aside from the past couple of months, he is. But he doesn't shoot them at a high enough volume. If he took 3 of those 9 midrange attempts per game and used them on threes, I'd be a lot more comfortable. But I don't think that's happening because Kawhi isn't really an off-the-dribble gunner like Harden, Curry, etc.

This is also why basketball is currently broken. It's retarded to value one shot 50% more that is nowhere near 50% harder to make (proven by the relative shooting percentages). I want Kawhi's style to win out. But it won't.

[SpursforSix]

WTF are we forgetting that he shot 44% last year? Or that he was pretty much at 40% this year prior to his struggles these past two months? God damn talk about recency bias. He's already a better three-point shooter than other midrange guys like MJ/Kirby ever were. He's a better shooter than Bron too.

Yeah...you're right. I'm not sure why I don't think it's sustainable. At least not as a high volume shooter. But maybe I'm dead wrong. I hope so.

But either way...if he's a 40% 3 point shooter or 30%, it's ridiculous to think his game is antiquated. Which I know wasn't your contention.

[gambit1990]

It always comes back to Parker with you.
i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

Parker has killed Wardell and Co. over the years, and now that they've lost their paint anchor (Bogut), the paint is prime real estate for Parker (and any penetrator) to claim.
0 points :lol
pulled in like erin berry :lol

[SpursforSix]

i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

0 points :lol
pulled in like erin berry :lol

And how many turnovers? Hmmm. Phoenix working on one part of his game at a time. Smart.

[midnightpulp]

i brought up parker because you were talking about upgrading the PG position... but a couple months ago you made it seem like tony would be good enough:

0 points :lol
pulled in like erin berry :lol

No other option. Of course I'm going to hope for the best.

I wanted Murray developed as an insurance policy (#freemurray), but that didn't happen. And he's injured.

House still isn't a solution. Can't even gamble on him starting because it kills the bench and the rotation. You want House coming in at certain times.

This is all shit you don't consider in your crusade.

[FkLA]

I'm not discrediting anything.

Again, simple math. 50% from midrange=33% from downtown. Curry takes over half his shots from three (54%). Harden takes 48% of his shots from three. Curry shoots 40% from three. Harden shoots 36%. Thus, Curry averages 12 points for 10 three point shots, Harden averages about 11 points for 10 shots, while Kawhi averages 10 points for 10 midrange shots. A midrange centric player can't win the "efficiency war" against 3 point centric players. Just not going to happen.

"Well, Kawhi is a deadeye from downtown."

Aside from the past couple of months, he is. But he doesn't shoot them at a high enough volume. If he took 3 of those 9 midrange attempts per game and used them on threes, I'd be a lot more comfortable. But I don't think that's happening because Kawhi isn't really an off-the-dribble gunner like Harden, Curry, etc.

This is also why basketball is currently broken. It's retarded to value one shot 50% more that is nowhere near 50% harder to make (proven by the relative shooting percentages). I want Kawhi's style to win out. But it won't.

Ok, so their main weapon (3PT shot) is worth more than Kawhi's (midrange).

What does this ultimately prove though? His style won't win out in what way? As in he won't score as much as those two? SA won't beat GS or HOU? Pretty confident that SA would handle HOU in a series. He's averaging more PPG than Curry on less FGAs. Even if we convert FTAs to FGAs and add them to their current FGA totals he's neck and neck with them as far as points per FGA goes.

[FkLA]

To simplify things, I'm going to assume all FTAs are 2 shot fouls. So every 2 FTAs convert into 1 FGA. Doing that we get:

Kawhi - 21.65 FGAs, 25.9 PPG
Harden - 24.35 FGAs, 29.3 PPG
Curry - 20.5 FGAs, 25.0 PPG

So points per FGA comes out to:

Kawhi - 1.20
Harden - 1.20
Curry - 1.22

[midnightpulp]

Ok, so their main weapon (3PT shot) is worth more than Kawhi's (midrange).

What does this ultimately prove though? His style won't win out in what way? As in he won't score as much as those two? SA won't beat GS or HOU? Pretty confident that SA would handle HOU in a series. He's averaging more PPG than Curry on less FGAs. Even if we convert FTAs to FGAs and add them to their current FGA totals he's neck and neck with them as far as points per FGA goes.

Remember when the SSOL Suns were the media darlings and everyone thought they were a title waiting to happen? Savvy fans knew their jumpshot/3 point happy style wouldn't "win out" in the post-season, since, at that time, size/rebounding/post-play is what "worked" in the post-season. The script has flipped.

Kawhi keeping pace with Curry in PPS is, quite frankly, incredible. But for Kawhi to sustain that level of production, he needs to continue to shoot ~50% from the midrange, which is a mammoth task (not many players have done that), especially in post-season play when teams are gameplanning for you. All a 3 point shooter needs to do to equalize that is shoot 33%, which would be "struggling" for Curry, Harden, etc.

In addition, mid range just doesn't stress defenses like 3 point heavy/penetration heavy attacks.

[midnightpulp]

To simplify things, I'm going to assume all FTAs are 2 shot fouls. So every 2 FTAs convert into 1 FGA. Doing that we get:

Kawhi - 21.65 FGAs, 25.9 PPG
Harden - 24.35 FGAs, 29.3 PPG
Curry - 20.5 FGAs, 25.0 PPG

So points per FGA comes out to:

Kawhi - 1.20
Harden - 1.20
Curry - 1.22

Just use PPS.

PPG/FGA

PPS is pretty much the gold standard now.

Harden: 1.55pps
Kawhi: 1.44pps
Curry: 1.37pps

My concern is that Curry and Harden's PPSes will be more sustainable in the post-season. No, we won't lose to Houston because their second best player is Trevor Ariza, but I expect Harden to be more productive than Kawhi in that series. Harden is a huge choker, though, so you never know.

[FkLA]

In that case, PPS last postseason:

Kawhi - 1.36
Harden - 1.33
Curry - 1.33

[midnightpulp]

In that case, PPS last postseason:

Kawhi - 1.36
Harden - 1.33
Curry - 1.33

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.

[midnightpulp]

Steph against OKC: 1.39PPS

[skulls138]

Kawhi, Kawhi, Kawhi. Kawhi does enough for this team, time for someone to come to his, ours, their own rescue. We need a consistent second option before we ask Kawhi to do one more damn thing. Kawhi needs to get his 3 back for sure but everybody has slumps now and again. As for his mid-range, its a good shot for when the shot clock is winding down because he can usually get it off cleanly without passing or being passed to. He should do so only then. Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.

[FkLA]

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.


Steph against OKC: 1.39PPS

Steph was at 1.27PPS against Cleveland though. His performance against OKC deserves credit, but I think in general most of their PPS will go down as the quality of the competition goes up. There's other things to consider too like being guarded by Robertson/KD or Westbrook/Payne.

[midnightpulp]

We got a first round bye against Memphis.

How about against OKC?

1.25PPS.

Oh, and 1.25PPS is really fuckin' good, especially in the playoffs. This just shows how much easier it is to produce when you shoot more 3s. Steph actually shot a lower overall percentage against OKC than Kawhi did.

[YGWHI]

And Kawhi does have consistent helpers. LMA is a 20ppg per 36 scorer. And Gasol and Lee have been great off the bench.

Sometimes I wonder if you're high or what.

1-I wouldn't call this LMA's season consistent...I'm so glad he's healthy but this wasn't his best season.

2-You're the one here whining about "mid-range, post-up is old, antiquated...Guess what, all the help Kawhi has is... OTHER TWO MID-RANGE LMA/ POST-UP PAU players.


A midrange centric player can't win the "efficiency war" against 3 point centric players. Just not going to happen.

Someone having a better mid-j than Kobe, being a prolific and efficient scorer, all that with the best defensive abilities since Moncrief or Pippen? Yes, he can.

He just need to be surrounded by amazing shooters like KD is now with Curry and Klay, or with a strong dribble-penetration guard like LeBron was with Wade and Irving.

But you know what, the Spurs didnt sign an elite guard to take pressure off and avoid the many double-teams Kawhi faces, or a 3-point specialist.
They opted to re-sign a 40 years old guard, to sign another post-up player, to keep the player who has been net negative in last playoffs as starting PG...Without mentioning the guard who can't drive for shit, and Simms/Kyle not being exactly like Eric Gordon from 3.

Tell me that other teams would doubled Kawhi aggressively with an offensive threat like Irving, Lillard, IT, or even CJ? Tell me who complete Kawhi's game better? Parker or Irving? CJ or Danny?

Now, tell me how many rings won LeBron without Wade-Bosh/Irving-Love...Remember, when he didn't have Kyrie/Love, he couldnt beat GSW alone. Even the best player in the world needed his teammate star to make that crazy shot to win the ship.

And you say Kawhi has plenty of help?
When LMA took over a game in POs when Kawhi was off, and the Spurs won that game?
I'd love to see LMA doing it because that would give Kawhi a breath, knowing he doesn't need to be MJ out there every night to get a win. But it NEVER happened.

So stop smoking that shit, mid. Better talk about Kawhi's supporting cast and the way that Pop/RC wanted to build this team

[FkLA]

Steph against '15 MEM: 1.21PPS
Kawhi against '16 MEM: 1.56PPS

It evens out, tbh.

[midnightpulp]

Steph against '15 MEM: 1.21PPS
Kawhi against '16 MEM: 1.56PPS

It evens out, tbh.

Memphis was a healthy 55 win team in '15. They were an injured 42 win wreck in '16. Vince Carter was their best perimeter scorer :lol

[FkLA]

Memphis was a healthy 55 win team in '15. They were an injured 42 win wreck in '16. Vince Carter was their best perimeter scorer :lol

Damn, I just checked and we got them without Gasol and Conley. I had completely forgotten.

I'd say 1.21PPS against a healthy MEM is doable for Kawhi though.

[YGWHI]

Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.
EXACTLY.

OP thinks that people who likes Kawhi's game like me, want Kawhi to go ISO every possession. That's wrong and stupid. I've said before how better Kawhi will look with a playmaker like CP3 in the SL.

He will get a ton of easy ones. He could average 25 ppg in just hoops and cuts to the rim. Obviously he would still get his amazig mid-j but he wouldn't need to work so hard for his points.

Parker isn't that type of playmaker, he only can set LMA and keep him involved. Kawhi? Neither of Parker, Danny, Patty, Manu make his life easier

[midnightpulp]

Sometimes I wonder if you're high or what.

1-I wouldn't call this LMA's season consistent...I'm so glad he's healthy but this wasn't his best season.

2-You're the one here whining about "mid-range, post-up is old, antiquated...Guess what, all the help Kawhi has is...OTHER TWO MID-RANGE LMA/ POST-UP PAU players.

Bigs are typically midrange/post centric players. You can't expect dribble drive penetration nor off-the-dribble 3 point shooting from them. Kawhi is a perimeter player, and if he further developed a penetration/off-the-dribble 3 point shot, I think this team would be a much bigger threat currently as is. Yes, the backcourt is the PRIMARY problem, but that doesn't mean Kawhi should not further develop his game in line with what works for perimeter players in the NBA. Simply hoping for a decent PG to come along won't solve everything.

Now if Kawhi is unable to develop that penetration/3 point game, then he needs to be clear with the FO, and say, "I need an Isaiah Thomas kind of player to run with." A Jeff Teague level player won't cut it if Kawhi doesn't sacrifice some of his midrange game for more penetration and threes.


Someone having a better mid-j than Kobe, being a prolific and efficient scorer, all that with the best defensive abilities since Moncrief or Pippen? Yes, he can.


Midrange jumpers aren't sustainable. You'll find this out the hard way in the playoffs, and probably shift the blame, like you always do. Guess what he shot from the midrange in the playoffs last season? I'll let you look it up.


But you know what, the Spurs didnt sign an elite guard to take pressure off and avoid the many double-teams Kawhi faces, or a 3-point specialist.
They opted to re-sign a 40 years old guard, to sign another post-up player, to keep the player who has been net negative in last playoffs as starting PG...Without mentioning the guard who can't drive for shit, and Simms/Kyle not being exactly like Eric Gordon from 3.


Shifting the blame. You want to talk about the supporting cast issues, make a thread. This is about what Kawhi needs to work on. To put it bluntly, he chose the wrong role-models (Kobe, Jordan) to build his game on. It's not his fault. When he came into the league, that style was still viable. Average 3 point attempts were at 18.4 per game. It's at 27 now. He now needs to adapt or ask the FO for help.


Tell me that other teams would doubled Kawhi aggressively with an offensive threat like Irving, Lillard, IT, or even CJ? Tell me who complete Kawhi's game better? Parker or Irving? CJ or Danny?


Danny hit a lot of 3s last night. Still didn't matter.


Now, tell me how many rings won LeBron without Wade-Bosh/Irving-Love...Remember, when he didn't have Kyrie/Love, he couldnt beat GSW alone. Even the best player in the world needed his teammate star to make that crazy shot to win the ship.

Again, has nothing to do with this thread. You want to talk about the supporting cast problems, make a thread.


And you say Kawhi has plenty of help?

To win the title, obviously not. But the lack of help shouldn't prevent him from adapting.


So stop smoking that shit, mid. Better talk about Kawhi's supporting cast and the way that Pop/RC wanted to build this team

Shifting the blame. Again, the supporting cast has nothing to do with the issues Kawhi needs to address.

[gambit1990]

Itd be nice to see him get some easy shots from passes every now and again.
seriously.

[cd98]

Spurs can score enough in the midrange if they could defend GSW. But they can't defend and if they have to outscore GSW in a shootout to win, they're screwed.

[FkLA]

Bruh, you're acting like Kawhi could be Harden if he would've strove to be that instead of going the MJ/Kobe route. He doesn't have the fluidity or body type for that shit. Just like Harden could never be Kawhi even if he wanted to. His midrange is a good foundation. He's complimented that by making himself a 40% 3PT shooter, and continues to make huge strides off the dribble and running the pick and roll. The improvements he's made and continues to make in those areas should not be undersold. Call me a homer if you want, but this is far from Kawhi's final form. His playmaking is still in its infancy. He'll end up being LeBron lite lite, imho. His playmaking will be more methodical like LeBron, rather than Harden's who's almost all penetration and kick-outs.

[midnightpulp]

Bruh, you're acting like Kawhi could be Harden if he would've strove to be that instead of going the MJ/Kobe route. He doesn't have the fluidity or body type for that shit. Just like Harden could never be Kawhi even if he wanted to. His midrange is a good foundation. He's complimented that by making himself a 40% 3PT shooter, and continues to make huge strides off the dribble and running the pick and roll. The improvements he's made and continues to make in those areas should not be undersold. Call me a homer if you want, but this is far from Kawhi's final form. His playmaking is still in its infancy. He'll end up being LeBron lite lite, imho. His playmaking will be more methodical like LeBron, rather than Harden's who's almost all penetration and kick-outs.

This touches on why it's hard to build around small forwards. They typically have bigger, more muscular frames that don't vibe with dribble-drive penetration. Maybe he has a hidden gear, but if he doesn't, the Spurs need to find the right players, or it's just going to middle round exit after middle round exit.

[gambit1990]

OP:
kawhi, antiquated
parker, pulling me back in

[midnightpulp]

OP:
kawhi, antiquated
parker, pulling me back in

Always comes back to Parker with you :lol

I don't think you ever had an opinion that didn't somehow reference Parker.

[FkLA]

Also expecting him to be an all-world scorer, all-world playmaker, and all-world defender is more than you're asking out of any of the other guys you're bringing up.

I think Kawhichael might just be up to the task though.

[midnightpulp]

Also expecting him to be an all-world scorer, all-world playmaker, and all-world defender is more than you're asking out of any of the other guys you're bringing up.

I think Kawhichael might just be up to the task though.

I'm actually not asking any of that.

Harden plays a much more simplistic game than Kawhi. Chuck 3s, use space from opponents guarding your chucking to penetrate. Kawhi plays the hardest style there is. Midrange/Midpost.

This also why 5'9" Isaiah Thomas is an elite player now. No way in Hell is he elite in the mid-00s. He's basically Bobby Jackson 2.0.

I feel bad for Kawhi, I really do. He should be the best offensive player in the league by far, but the broken 3 point shot has given inefficient shooters (Harden would struggle in the mid-00s) a way to equalize.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and why do you all think I put "antiquated" in quotes?

Kawhi's game is actually more advanced than a Harden's, but because of the 3 point shot, Kawhi's game isn't rewarded with the same efficiency relative to other top players as it should be. Jordan was the most efficient perimeter player in the league because he could post up and nail midrange shots, while most guards of the day were just single minded penetrators and easier to guard.

I find it broken that inefficient 4-12 shooting produces the same as efficient 6-12 shooting.

"Well, the 3 point shot is harder."

It isn't. It's also easier to get a 3 point shot than a midrange shot. You just need a pick.

[gambit1990]

Always comes back to Parker with you :lol
just showing people how stupid you are.

[YGWHI]

Bigs are typically midrange/post centric players. You can't expect dribble drive penetration nor off-the-dribble 3 point shooting from them.
But that's all "the help" that Kawhi has.


Simply hoping for a decent PG to come along won't solve everything.
An elite guard? It worked for LeBron and KD, it would work for Kawhi, too.


Midrange jumpers aren't sustainable. You'll find this out the hard way in the playoffs, and probably shift the blame, like you always do. Guess what he shot from the midrange in the playoffs last season? I'll let you look it up.

Like I've said before, a player can't play or shoot well every game of a playoffs series.
Kawhi had some MVP level in the first games and then had two bad last games in 2015 and 2016 playoffs. That was painful to watch but we can expect those things.
Opposite teams adjust on the hot scorer, the shots aren't falling...

When a player starts cold the series but get hot in the last games it's likely his team win the series. It happened with Kawhi in 2014 and LeBron in 2016.

Again, Kawhi won't shoot over .60% in a whole playoffs series, the issue is the Spurs don't have a guy who steps up when Kawhi is off.



Shifting the blame. You want to talk about the supporting cast issues, make a thread. This is about what Kawhi needs to work on.

No. This is about how Kawhi hurts and puts this team at risk.

This is about how Spurs wont win with Kawhi.... But I'm saying how they can win with him


To put it bluntly, he chose the wrong role-models (Kobe, Jordan) to build his game on.
He chose???
Pop told him to watch those vids and mold his game in that way. Why you can't admit that this Spurs style of play is a result of Pop decisions?


But the lack of help shouldn't prevent him from adapting
Adapting for... what? "If he shoots 3's like Curry..." "If he plays like Harden...."

And what's if Curry/Harden can defense or shoot from mid-range, or post-up, instead of taking half court 3's?

"Be like Harden"

Well, Harden was 5-20... and... 1-9 from 3 against GSW last game.

I'd say be careful about what you wish for Kawhi.

"But but if Kawhi was 7' 11, and has other arm to rebound, and...." Damn. Kawhi is a SF. And you expect he becomes into some SG?

Granted, he should shoot better from 3...But shooting like GSW when he's not a pure 3 guy? Talking about high expectations

[midnightpulp]

just showing people how stupid you are.

Oh yeah, wanting our starting PG to do well is extremely stupid. :lol

[gambit1990]

Oh yeah, wanting our starting PG to do well is extremely stupid. :lol
i want tp to do well. you kept making it seem like he was much more than capable :lmao

[FkLA]

This touches on why it's hard to build around small forwards. They typically have bigger, more muscular frames that don't vibe with dribble-drive penetration. Maybe he has a hidden gear, but if he doesn't, the Spurs need to find the right players, or it's just going to middle round exit after middle round exit.

What do you consider a dribble-drive penetration style? To me that's not what GS is. They do a lot of off-ball stuff, let Donkey create at the top of the key, Curry isos, exploitation of match-ups, etc. Significantly different from the SSOL Suns or Harden's Rockets imo.


I'm actually not asking any of that.

Harden plays a much more simplistic game than Kawhi. Chuck 3s, use space from opponents guarding your chucking to penetrate. Kawhi plays the hardest style there is. Midrange/Midpost.

This also why 5'9" Isaiah Thomas is an elite player now. No way in Hell is he elite in the mid-00s. He's basically Bobby Jackson 2.0.

I feel bad for Kawhi, I really do. He should be the best offensive player in the league by far, but the broken 3 point shot has given inefficient shooters (Harden would struggle in the mid-00s) a way to equalize.

I really don't get your point though. Yeah, that style is hard but if he makes it work why does it matter? You keep saying it's unsustainable but his PPS is up there with those other guys. Yeah, shit gets harder for him in the playoffs but it's not like shit doesn't get harder for Steph and Harden as well.

[midnightpulp]

But that's all "the help" that Kawhi has.

Front line has been solid this year. Not enough to win, but Kawhi has enough help for the Spurs to have a puncher's chance.



An elite guard? It worked for LeBron and KD, it would work for Kawhi, too.

Sure it would. Doesn't mean Kawhi should ignore his deficiencies. Even Lebron on the Heat. After the Mavs series, people criticized his lack of post-game and midrange jumper. What'd he do? Made himself a threat in both areas. I can already hear your reply. "See, Bron developed the post and midrange and the Heat won." That was 2012. League is much different now.


Like I've said before, a player can't play or shoot well every game of a playoffs series.
Kawhi had some MVP level in the first games and then had two bad last games in 2015 and 2016 playoffs.

Sure. But a midrange centric offense has a higher variance. Does the simple math of of a 3 point shot being worth 50% more go over your head?


Again, Kawhi won't shoot over .60% in a whole playoffs series, the issue is the Spurs don't have a guy who steps up when Kawhi is off.

Problem is he basically has to shoot 60% from the midrange to counter 3 point heavy attacks.


No. This is about how Kawhi hurts and puts this team at risk.

I never said he hurts the team, but there's no questioning that a midrange game is "riskier." Again, what is about the midrange shot being the worst in basketball that you don't get? "Well, Kawhi shoots them at 50%." Not sustainable in the playoffs.


This is about how Spurs wont win with Kawhi.... But I'm saying how they can win with him

They can win with him, but he'll need to tweak his game while the Spurs find a star PG. All the top teams have at least two guys who can both penetrate and shoot 3s off the dribble. Curry/Durant, Lebron/Irving, Thomas/Bradley, and all players who take less than 40% of their shots from the midrange. Kawhi takes 53% of this shots from the midrange.


He chose???
Pop told him to watch those vids and mold his game in that way. Why you can't admit that this Spurs style of play is a result of Pop decisions?


Shifting the blame. And all Pop said was he hoped Kobe would mentor him. Kawhi is his own man, is he not?

Adapting for... what? "If he shoots 3's like Curry..." "If he plays like Harden...."


And what's if Curry/Harden can defense or shoot from mid-range, or post-up, instead of taking half court 3's?


Need to reduce number of midrange attempts in favor of more 3s or drives. I'm not saying go total Harden or Curry, but 53% of attempts coming from the midrange is too much.


Well, Harden was 5-20... and... 1-9 from 3 against GSW last game. [/B]

Harden is a choker, we know this. I'm talking about Harden's style, not necessarily Harden the player.

[midnightpulp]

i want tp to do well. you kept making it seem like he was much more than capable :lmao

Compared to other PGs on this team, he's the only capable of addressing the needs.

[midnightpulp]

[QUOTE]What do you consider a dribble-drive penetration style? To me that's not what GS is. They do a lot of off-ball stuff, let Donkey create at the top of the key, Curry isos, exploitation of match-ups, etc. Significantly different from the SSOL Suns or Harden's Rockets imo.


Harden, Westbrook, Thomas. Golden State is actually 5th in the league in points-in-the-paint. Not sure how much of it comes off penetration, though. And of course they play at a higher pace. The Spurs rank a dismal 28th in points-in-the-paint. And Golden State's 3 point shooting is so dangerous, Curry and co. walk in a lot of easy layups. Right now, Curry takes 22% of his shots from 0-3 (layups) and shoots 64%. Kawhi takes 18% of his shots from that distance, but shoots a tad higher at 66%, not enough to offset the lack of volume.


I really don't get your point though. Yeah, that style is hard but if he makes it work why does it matter? You keep saying it's unsustainable but his PPS is up there with those other guys. Yeah, shit gets harder for him in the playoffs but it's not like shit doesn't get harder for Steph and Harden as well.


In the regular season it is, but his PPS against the only real playoff team the Spurs faced was markedly lower. And like I said, a 3 point/penetration attack puts a lot more pressure on defenses than a midrange one, sends defenses into scrambles a lot more often, making things easier for role players. I think this is one of the reasons the Spurs gave up the lead seemingly so easily last night. It's exhausting having to cover all the ground running off shooters or collapsing on penetration. The most pressure a midrange post play will put on the defense is drawing the nearest man off his man. It doesn't really send a defense into "chaos."

[FkLA]

Harden, Westbrook, Thomas. Golden State is actually 5th in the league in points-in-the-paint. Not sure how much of it comes off penetration, though. And of course they play at a higher pace. The Spurs rank a dismal 28th in points-in-the-paint. And Golden State's 3 point shooting is so dangerous, Curry and co. walk in a lot of easy layups. Right now, Curry takes 22% of his shots from 0-3 (layups) and shoots 64%. Kawhi takes 18% of his shots from that distance, but shoots a tad higher at 66%, not enough to offset the lack of volume.

Those guys aren't exactly sitting on top of the league though. Just seems like you're overrating that style a bit. You basically said the league went from being dominated by teams like the Spurs and the SSOL Suns being the odd man out, to now the SSOL Suns style being the dominant style. I don't see it.



In the regular season it is, but his PPS against the only real playoff team the Spurs faced was markedly lower. And like I said, a 3 point/penetration attack puts a lot more pressure on defenses than a midrange one, sends defenses into scrambles a lot more often, making things easier for role players. I think this is one of the reasons the Spurs gave up the lead seemingly so easily last night. It's exhausting having to cover all the ground running off shooters or collapsing on penetration. The most pressure a midrange post play will put on the defense is drawing the nearest man off his man. It doesn't really send a defense into "chaos."

What about Curry's PPS against '16 CLE and '15 MEM though? It's not like Curry's style is an absolute lock to be sustainable.

I also think you're oversimplifying the double team. Theoretically, drawing a double team should send a defense scrambling to help out as well. Although tbf I think Kawhi still has to improve at reading and passing out of them. Too many times he just gets rid of the ball out of the double team without putting the team in an advantageous position.

[YGWHI]

I never said he hurts the team, but there's no questioning that a midrange game is "riskier." Again, what is about the midrange shot being the worst in basketball that you don't get? "Well, Kawhi shoots them at 50%." Not sustainable in the playoffs.

Mid-range is riskier for Kawhi. But not for LMA? Suuure.


They can win with him, but he'll need to tweak his game while the Spurs find a star PG.
They can find an elite guard in this next offseason. If they really want to...There is no need for keep suffering effects of "loyalty" contracts...Hopefully Pop realizes it.


Shifting the blame. And all Pop said was he hoped Kobe would mentor him. Kawhi is his own man, is he not?

All Pop said...

Pop signed mid-range/post up players instead of picking slashers or 3-point shooters. Told Kawhi mold his game like MJ/Kobe...But "all Pop said".



I'm talking about Harden's style, not necessarily Harden the player.

How convenient, right? Harden's style of play didn't give him a ring, didn't make him a winner...But it should have to work for Kawhi...

You sounds like a crazy man.

[YGWHI]

What about Curry's PPS against '16 CLE and '15 MEM though? It's not like Curry's style is an absolute lock to be sustainable.

Don't let a fact ruin this thread.

Curry didn't shoot that well all playoffs games, the difference is he had a better supporting cast than Kawhi's that could hide his off nights.

[gambit1990]

Compared to other PGs on this team, he's the only capable of addressing the needs.
according to you, someone pulled back in by parker :lol

[YGWHI]

Need to reduce number of midrange attempts in favor of more 3s or drives.

One of best Kawhi's FG% is at mid-j but you would rather see him shooting from 3 and missing instead of making buckets...Again. Crazy



I still wonder why you didn't say "the Spurs can't win with Kawhi" after he took over games this season.

Why you didn't make a thread saying "Kawhi puts this team at risk" after his 35 points vs GWS

Why you didn't whine about "Kawhi's mid-range is antiquated" after his mid-j buzzer beaters?

844401083569111040

846533218291601408

805079236440629248

841462507151773696

837151455656161280
Travel but still a beautiful shot


You're just an opportunistic guy who waited for an off night to bring all this shit.

[Slippy]

Kawais game isnt really anticated. Its spurs bread & butter on offense. You gotta milk it. BUT where its old fashioned is handling defenses focused on you & as chinook pointed out going with other options. If teammates arre hot or dont have the same focus., you have to utilize them.

Thats the next level Kawai has to get to.

[Slippy]

Always comes back to Parker with you :lol

I don't think you ever had an opinion that didn't somehow reference Parker.

Not trying to pull parker in . Needs to be repeated though. He's part of the problem. Other teammates (kawai mainly) are forced to make plays , when its not their gamedepending on how Tony is feeling. Some days hes got his legs other days he looks useless. Like last night

[SAGirl]

Oh, and why do you all think I put "antiquated" in quotes?

Kawhi's game is actually more advanced than a Harden's, but because of the 3 point shot, Kawhi's game isn't rewarded with the same efficiency relative to other top players as it should be. Jordan was the most efficient perimeter player in the league because he could post up and nail midrange shots, while most guards of the day were just single minded penetrators and easier to guard.

I find it broken that inefficient 4-12 shooting produces the same as efficient 6-12 shooting.

"Well, the 3 point shot is harder."

It isn't. It's also easier to get a 3 point shot than a midrange shot. You just need a pick.
That's actually a good point but it's made the sport enjoyable for the casual fan which is why it won't be addressed as game breaking. The beautiful game taken to the extreme is the GSW. Perhaps if thi s extreme continues to a perverse game breaking point something could be done (like in Wilts time... or years past forgive if I got the timing wrong, the paint area was widened and measures implemented to prevent a player from becoming so dominant there was effectively no strategy to defeat him.) I don't think the league is there yet but there are aspects of the game and styles that are completely being eliminated as ineffective and impossible to win with... tough to say what the ultimate outcome will be. Probably nothing.

[midnightpulp]

Mid-range is riskier for Kawhi. But not for LMA? Suuure.

LMA is a big. Midrange/Low post are his only options, and yes, I'd rather LMA go to the low-low post and manufacture himself layups. Nearly everyone here hates when LMA takes those 15 foot fadeaways.



They can find an elite guard in this next offseason. If they really want to...There is no need for keep suffering effects of "loyalty" contracts...Hopefully Pop realizes it.

That would solve a big problem, but it doesn't mean Kawhi doesn't have to further tweak his game.


All Pop said...

Pop signed mid-range/post up players instead of picking slashers or 3-point shooters. Told Kawhi mold his game like MJ/Kobe...But "all Pop said".


Link?


How convenient, right? Harden's style of play didn't give him a ring, didn't make him a winner...But it should have to work for Kawhi...

He's gotten further in the playoffs as his team's best than Kawhi has as his team's best player. Kawhi hasn't been past the second round as "the man."

[midnightpulp]

One of best Kawhi's FG% is at mid-j but you would rather see him shooting from 3 and missing instead of making buckets...Again. Crazy

Are you this dumb? Do you realize you can miss TWO more attempts shooting 3s out of twelve shots and still produce the same as if you made six out of twelve midrange shots? And Chinook brought up a good point. Missed three pointers are actually "better" misses than missed midrange jumpers because it puts Kawhi in a better position to get back and defend the fast break.

I never said the Spurs can't win with Kawhi. I'm saying his style of game makes winning and team building a more difficult task than if he played a more "modern" game.

[midnightpulp]

Those guys aren't exactly sitting on top of the league though. Just seems like you're overrating that style a bit. You basically said the league went from being dominated by teams like the Spurs and the SSOL Suns being the odd man out, to now the SSOL Suns style being the dominant style. I don't see it.

It's not my personal opinion necessarily. Like I said, you can't beat math.


What about Curry's PPS against '16 CLE and '15 MEM though? It's not like Curry's style is an absolute lock to be sustainable.

Nothing can 100% sustainable, of course, but I would bet on Curry's offense as the more sustainable one over Kawhi's. Kawhi hasn't even averaged over 25ppg in the post-season, but he's only been the man for 2 seasons, so we'll see what happens.


I also think you're oversimplifying the double team. Theoretically, drawing a double team should send a defense scrambling to help out as well. Although tbf I think Kawhi still has to improve at reading and passing out of them. Too many times he just gets rid of the ball out of the double team without putting the team in an advantageous position.

It can, but from what I see, it just doesn't create the same havoc as 3 point/penetration.

[midnightpulp]

according to you, someone pulled back in by parker :lol

When Parker looks good, he's what we need (a penetrator), so of course I'm going to root for him. But now I think the nail is finally in the coffin. Problem is, there's no solution. You can't simply throw House in there. He doesn't solve the penetration issue, is too small to defend starting point guards, and is needed off the bench. Again, Murray was needed as insurance, but that didn't happen. So deal with it and just hope magic happens and Tony finds a spark of his prime self.

[YGWHI]

And Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) brought up a good point. Missed three pointers are actually "better" misses than missed midrange jumpers because it puts Kawhi in a better position to get back and defend the fast break.

Yep. He also said that "Kawhi isn't even Spurs best defender" when he won his first DPOY, then he said "Kawhi defense is overrated" when he won his second.

We all know about "his takes" about Kawhi.

The best? "Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait"

Only on ST you can find crazy people who think that Kawhi's game should be reduced to just parking in corner and take some occasional open 3...

Again, I'd love to know why we didn't hear these two guys after Kawhi made all those clutch shots.

"But but he shouldn't take that shot, better he stays glued to 3-point line and let Parker or Danny win the game for us"

[YGWHI]

Link?

http://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Spurs-notebook-Pop-urged-Leonard-to-be-like-Mike-10784536.php


When the Spurs first landed Kawhi Leonard in the summer of 2011, coach Gregg Popovich directed him to the film room with a mantra familiar to many Chicagoans.

Be like Mike.

“One of the first things we did when he came was we got him Michael Jordan clips,” Popovich said before the Spurs faced the Bulls in Jordan’s old stomping grounds at the United Center on Thursday...

Specifically, Popovich wanted Leonard to watch the Hall of Famer’s footwork, which the coach called “magnificent.”
“The way he posted, the way he pivoted, his rocker step, his ability to pump-fake and move,” Popovich said. “He was brilliant in his fundamentals, and it made him great. I wanted Kawhi to see that.”

Pop wanted Kawhi to be a post-up player since day 1. "But but Kawhi chose to watch MJ/Kobe" "But but all Pop said..."



He's gotten further in the playoffs as his team's best than Kawhi has as his team's best player. Kawhi hasn't been past the second round as "the man."
Further... When you say that Spurs can't win with Kawhi, you talk about rings, Harden doesn't have one for some good reason.

[midnightpulp]

Yep. He also said that "Kawhi isn't even Spurs best defender" when he won his first DPOY, then he said "Kawhi defense is overrated" when he won his second.

We all know about "his takes" about Kawhi.

The best? "Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait"

Only on ST you can find crazy people who think that Kawhi's game should be reduced to just parking in corner and take some occasional open 3...

Again, I'd love to know why we didn't hear these two guys after Kawhi made all those clutch shots.

"But but he shouldn't take that shot, better he stays glued to 3-point line and let Parker or Danny win the game for us"

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

[midnightpulp]

http://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Spurs-notebook-Pop-urged-Leonard-to-be-like-Mike-10784536.php



Pop wanted Kawhi to be a post-up player since day 1. "But but Kawhi chose to watch MJ/Kobe" "But but all Pop said..."



Further... When you say that Spurs can't win with Kawhi, you talk about rings, Harden doesn't have one for some good reason.

Did you see the key phrase in that article?

In 2011...

Unfortunately the game has changed now and Jordan style midpost play is a relic (to my dismay). Kawhi is also his own man. Just cause Pop set him on one path doesn't mean he can't detour and add things to his game. Again, everyone criticized Lebron for having no post game and midrange game when the Heat lost to the Mavs. He worked and developed those areas. So either someone in the Spurs org needs to bring it to Kawhi's attention or Kawhi needs to realize it himself.

And if Kawhi can't develop those areas, then the Spurs need to bring in someone who can play that style of game at a high level. But as Harlem pointed out, Kawhi's usage will likely drop and he won't average the pretty 25-26ppg you want him to.

[MaNu4Tres]

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

Agree with this. In a 7 game series, the teams who manufacture the best and most efficient shots will win more often than not. The Spurs manufacture too many long two's to ever beat the W's in a 7 game series and I honestly believe the Rockets will have an advantage over the Spurs in a series as well because of this very aspect.

[midnightpulp]

Agree with this. In a 7 game series, the teams who manufacture the best and most efficient shots will win more often than not. The Spurs manufacture too many long two's to ever beat the W's in a 7 game series and I honestly believe the Rockets will have an advantage over the Spurs in a series as well because of this very aspect.

Yep. Pretty much every team and its star players shoot less than 30% of their shots from the midrange. Durant is the only exception at about 40%.

Don't know why this fact is so hard for some here to comprehend.

[YGWHI]

Did you see the key phrase in that article?

In 2011...

Unfortunately the game has changed now and Jordan style midpost play is a relic (to my dismay). Kawhi is also his own man. Just cause Pop set him on one path doesn't mean he can't detour and add things to his game. Again, everyone criticized Lebron for having no post game and midrange game when the Heat lost to the Mavs. He worked and developed those areas. So either someone in the Spurs org needs to bring it to Kawhi's attention or Kawhi needs to realize it himself.

And if Kawhi can't develop those areas, then the Spurs need to bring in someone who can play that style of game at a high level. But as Harlem pointed out, Kawhi's usage will likely drop and he won't average the pretty 25-26ppg you want him to.

I want... what? I don't want Kawhi parking in the corner taking and missed 3's all game. But I never said a word about his ppg.

If they would sign a high-USG type of guard, that guy will see his usage dropping too, but him and Kawhi, both can still get some 23-24 ppg playing together.

If Kawhi's USG% and ppg drops in orden to get the Spurs and him more rings, I can't see the issue.

[YGWHI]

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy.
"Spurs can't win with Kawhi"

"Kawhi is hurting this team"

"Kawhi puts this team at risk"

And people who think that's unfair and oportunistic, it's just a sensitive fanboy. Of course...

[midnightpulp]

I want... what? I don't want Kawhi parking in the corner taking and missed 3's all game. But I never said a word about his ppg.

If they would sign a high-USG type of guard, that guy will see his usage dropping too, but him and Kawhi, both can still get some 23-24 ppg playing together.

If Kawhi's USG% and ppg drops in orden to get the Spurs and him more rings, I can't see the issue.

Corner 3 is the most efficient shot in basketball. Why wouldn't you want him taking more?

Oh, I know, because it deprives you of watching Kawhi "go to the work" in the post in one-on-one iso situations.

That said, since we lack guard penetration, you're right that Kawhi shouldn't park in the corner, since no one can really drive and kick on this team. But if we get that PG we all want, you can bet Kawhi will be taking more corner 3s.

[midnightpulp]

"Spurs can't win with Kawhi"

"Kawhi is hurting this team"

"Kawhi puts this team at risk"

And people who think that's unfair and oportunistic, it's just a sensitive fanboy. Of course...

Never said any of that.

[YGWHI]

Corner 3 is the most efficient shot in basketball. Why wouldn't you want him taking more?
Do you really know that Kawhi is taking 1.5 more 3's this season, right?

Even KD on All-3point shots-team is taking less 3PAs.

Kawhi 5.3 3PA KD 5...

Not sure why you want Kawhi will be forced to take 6-7 3PAs per game. That's just stupid.


But if we get that PG we all want, you can bet Kawhi will be taking more corner 3s.
But also that PG will prevent teams to double Kawhi and he'll post up more too.

[midnightpulp]

Do you really know that Kawhi is taking 1.5 more 3's this season, right?

Even KD on All-3point shots-team is taking less 3PAs.

Kawhi 5.3 3PA KD 5...

Not sure why you want Kawhi will be forced to take 6-7 3PAs per game. That's just stupid.


But also that PG will prevent teams to double Kawhi and he'll post up more too.

Yes. And that's good.

Of course KD is going to take less 3s. He has to share the ball with two other volume 3 point shooters.

No. 6-7 3PAs isn't "stupid."

Most of the top teams have a star player who averages more than 6-7 3PA per game.

I hope he doesn't post up more from the midrange. Least efficient shot in the game. Get it through your head. But I know, know, you love watching him "go to work."

[YGWHI]

Of course KD is going take less 3's He has to share the ball with other volumen 3 point shooters.

No. KD has 4.7 as 3PA career, LeBron 4.

But Kawhi is the only dominant SF in the league that should take more 7-8 3PA per game, right?

Is this thread about to ignore Kawhi's strengths? If that...You're doing a great job here.

A team has to play his best player at his strengths to win, should maximize his game and hide his weaknesses. The opposite of forcing him to become into a type of player he's not...


Most of the top teams have a star player who averages more than 6-7 3PA per game.

In the top teams, ALL those stars taking more than 6 FGAs are PGs, neither one of them is a SF, also they take more FGAs overall than Kawhi.

[midnightpulp]

No. KD has 4.7 as 3PA career, LeBron 4.

But Kawhi is the only dominant SF in the legue that should take more 8 3PA per game...

Is this thread about to ignore Kawhi's strengths? If that...You're doing a great job here.

A team has to play his best player at his strengths to win, should maximize his game and hide his weakness. The opposite of forcing him to become into a type of player he's not...



In the top teams, ALL those stars taking more than 6 FGAs are PGs, neither one of them is a SF, also they take more FGAs overall than Kawhi.

:lol You realize KD and Lebron both played a few years before the 3 point happy era, right?

KD was averaging about 6.3 attempts with the Thunder since 2014 before joining the Warriors. Before 2014, he was at about 4.2 attempts, so he adapted. Lebron indeed has never been a gunner, but remember, I also want Kawhi to produce more layups for himself. Let's take a look at the respective amount of shots each player takes from 0-3 feet:

Lebron: .422 (so nearly half his shots attempts are layups)

KD: .270

Kawhi: .182

Yeah, a team does have to use the strengths of their best player, problem is Kawhi's main offensive strengths are "less strong" than the strengths of other top players. Again, you can put your fingers in your ears and deny the numbers, but that isn't going to change reality. Here's a simple breakdown from what I would like to see from Kawhi.

Right now, he shoots about 53% of his shots from the midrange. I'd like that percentage to drop to 35% in favor of more layups and threes equally distributed. It would also improve overall spacing and put more pressure on defenses.

[YGWHI]

Right now, he shoots about 53% of his shots from the midrange. I'd like to that percentage drop to 35% in favor of more layups and threes equally distributed. It would also improve overall spacing and put more pressure on defenses.

Right now, he shoots 30% of his shots from 3. 17.9 FGAs/5.3 3PAs

If he should shoot 35% of his shots from mid-range and has to equally distributed the rest of his shots in layups and 3's, it's about 30-32% from 3.

So he's taking already that 3PAs %.

"But but he has to adapt..." "He has to take 8 3PAs like Harden..." "Every top team have a star taking 6-7 3PAs..." "Be like Harden but not too much like him, after all he's a choker..."

Like Ive said before, stop smoking that shit.

[Chinook]

Other things Chinook said don't invalidate that point. He was right about that.

You're too much of a sensitive fanboy. Saying Kawhi needs to further work on his game or that the modern game has passed some aspects of his game by isn't an insult. One stride he made was getting to the line more. But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting. I'm not saying totally abandon his midrange game, but 54% of his shots coming from that area is too much. You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, though.

You have to understand that Y is completely intellectually dishonest. So he takes out the context and even half the sentence for most quotes and never preserves the link.

Ironically, though the "corner" remark comes from a similar thread started by FKLA like 16 months ago. This is the full quote:


Kawhi plays a lot with the second unit for a guy who starts. He's the last guy subbed out, or second-to-last if LMA has to stay in. But anyway, Parker's a Spur for three more years. You don't waste his last good years planning for him not being on the team. If Parker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action. The only initiator that's better than a clean Parker drive is a Diaw mismatch post-up.

And this was the post that pissed Y off.


The Spurs should give the hot hand the ball, now and always. If Tony's offense is having an Indian summer, he gets the ball. Duncan got the ball against the Clippers, and he fails every check you had set up for Parker. Kawhi will have to learn to play with guys, because his offense outside of set plays and spot-up shots isn't all that conducive to sharing the ball. That will come in time, but a non-marginalized Kawhi is going to bog down the offense a bit -- look at Melo and Kobe in their primes for examples of this, and then calibrate for the way the game has changed.

It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

[midnightpulp]

Right now, he shoots 30% of his shots from 3. 17.9 FGAs/5.3 3PAs

If he should shoot 35% of his shots from mid-range and has to equally distributed the rest of his shots in layups and 3's, it's about 30-32% from 3.

So he's taking already that 3PAs %.

"But but he has to adapt..." "He has to take 8 3PAs like Harden..." "Every top team have a star taking 6-7 3PAs..." "Be like Harden but not too much like him, after all he's a choker..."

Like Ive said before, stop smoking that shit.

They do. Deny it all you want.

Right now, Kawhi is taking 9.4 shots per game from the midrange, to drop down to the 35% I want him, he'd have to reduce the number of midrange shots by about 3, giving him 1.5 more layup attempts per and 1.5 more 3s per game. Currently, his PPS sits at 1.44. Kawhi shoots about 50% on midrange shots, so his PPS is exactly 1 on those types of shots. His PPS on layups is 1.32. His PPS on 3s is 1.11.

So currently Kawhi's offense looks like this:

9.4ppg from the midrange
4.2ppg from layups
5.8ppg from 3

=19.4ppg. (remember, we're not counting FT attempts.

If Kawhi does what I want, he'll expect to average:

6.4ppg from the midrange
6.2ppg from layups
7.4ppg from 3

=20ppg.

A .6 ppg improvement doesn't sound like a lot, but it is. For example, let's say a player scores 20 points in two straight games in regulation. The second game was lost in OT. A .5 ppg improvement would mean he scored 21ppg in one of the games, hopefully the 2nd one. Point is, one extra point is often the difference between a win and a loss or even a title.

Seeing the numbers now, I would like Kawhi to actually shave off as much midrange attempts as he can to manufacture an extra point-per-game. Furthermore, Kawhi is having a "down year" in 3 point shooting, so there's even more room there, while he's shooting just about as good as one can from the midrange.

[midnightpulp]

You have to understand that Y is completely intellectually dishonest. So he takes out the context and even half the sentence for most quotes and never preserves the link.

Ironically, though the "corner" remark comes from a similar thread started by FKLA like 16 months ago. This is the full quote:



And this was the post that pissed Y off.



It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

Yeah, like banging my head against the wall. Can't help myself, though. Kawhi is a flawless player. It's all on Pop, Porker, the FO, etc, etc.

I don't like the fact the midrange game is a relic anymore than they do, and unfortunately Kawhi came into the league after Dirk just won a title, killing it from midrange postups and jumpers, Kobe was still considered an elite scorer because of it, and all the criticism toward Lebron was that he didn't have a jumper or post game, so it was natural for Kawhi and the Spurs to develop him in that mold.

Then the Warriors happened, and analytics confirmed their style of play as the most effective.

[YGWHI]

"If Parker is having an Indian summer...IfParker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

I guess the guy who replied to your pots in that thread that Parker wasn't that player anymore and the team should adjust to Kawhi's strengths WAS RIGHT.

"Kawhi defense is overrated""Kawhi isnt Spurs best defender" Of course...you're an objective guy

[YGWHI]

I find this so funny. Neither mid or chinnok couldn't see this coming...

"He can score 25 points against Warriors" "If Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."

He couldnt do it against elite teams after 2014 playoffs but they keep saying these stupid things...Just amazing, right?

[midnightpulp]

I find this so funny. Neither mid or chinnok couldn't see this coming...

"He can score 25 points against Warriors" "If Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."

He couldnt do it against elite teams after 2014 playoffs but they keep saying these stupid things...Just amazing, right?

Are you this dumb, really?

Who the fuck else should we hope for on this team that can get into the paint consistently? House? :lmao Manu? :lmao

Spurs didn't sign anyone, banking on Parker. We as fans have no choice but to deal with it, and hope for the best when Parker shows flashes.

As a playerfan first, you wouldn't understand.

[Chinook]

As a playerfan first, you wouldn't understand.

Dude doesn't even seem to get the concept of a hot hand. There will be times when Parker and/or Manu have throw-back games. When those happen, the team needs to ride them.

You can't bitch about Kawhi not having help but also want him to jack up shots even when his "help" is showing up.

[skulls138]

Dude doesn't even seem to get the concept of a hot hand. There will be times when Parker and/or Manu have throw-back games. When those happen, the team needs to ride them.

You can't bitch about Kawhi not having help but also want him to jack up shots even when his "help" is showing up.You dont seem to acknowledge Kawhis rising assist numbers. Theres some ungrateful people on this board. Tim Duncan retired, Parkers a shell of himself and Manus not far behind and we're still the second best team in the league. Why? Kawhi "The Klaw" Leonard...period. Not LMA thats for goddamn sure.

[dabom]

"Lma should be the number 1 option and is more efficient than kawhi"- Chinook :lol

[Chinook]

You dont seem to acknowledge Kawhis rising assist numbers.

That's only a salve for the larger issue. As I said, the problem with Kawhi's offense isn't Kawhi usually. It was last game. There are more fundamental issues with how it affects the offense and defense. But that's not about him being selfish or inefficient. He's still trying to mature into a championship first option. He's getting better at passing when he can't score, but he has a ways to go in terms of setting guys up even when he can score.


Theres some ungrateful people on this board.

That's very true. But there are more people who only see what they want to see. Saying things are Kawhi's fault has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation. It has everything to do with giving an honest evaluation.

Please, spare me the "why do you hate Kawhi?" talk. I love Kawhi. But there are problems with the team trying to win with him as their lead guy. Him being a better version of the same player he is right now wouldn't fix that problem. We just have to hope that guys like Parker and Manu are able to provide the driving the team needs when the time comes.

[FkLA]

Of course KD is going to take less 3s. He has to share the ball with two other volume 3 point shooters.

:lol So what you're saying is that the problem is the Spurs not Kawhi? If Kawhi had the exact same 3PT attempts on GS, he wouldn't be antiquated anymore?

[dabom]

:lol So what you're saying is that the problem is the Spurs not Kawhi? If Kawhi had the exact same 3PT attempts on GS, he wouldn't be antiquated anymore?

Apparently not being surrounded by 3 all stars in their primes is his fucking problem. :lmao

[DMC]

:lol So what you're saying is that the problem is the Spurs not Kawhi? If Kawhi had the exact same 3PT attempts on GS, he wouldn't be antiquated anymore?

http://d2s3dt9f4iyeup.cloudfront.net/images/standard_v1/ad03724a-ff11-49d7-aa2d-fe2ee238acfe.png

[dabom]

Are we still comparing brickhead to 2017 MVP? :lol

[FkLA]

http://d2s3dt9f4iyeup.cloudfront.net/images/standard_v1/ad03724a-ff11-49d7-aa2d-fe2ee238acfe.png

lol 9 games
lol nowhere near as good as Kawhi's best 9 game stretch

At least it's not just a 1 game sample though. You're making progress, fat boy.

[FkLA]

Are we still comparing brickhead to 2017 MVP? :lol

"He's a much better offensive player than Kawhi."

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/526/891/d0e.jpg

[Neurosis]

I just hope Tony and Manu retire in time for us to get younger at the guard positions. Our team is fucking SLOOOOOW

[Neurosis]

And that they retire while Kawhi is still in his prime. They need to go, and we need to add some athletic-but-useful morons who can give us easy baskets in transition and penetrate.

Even when we were a halfcourt team using Duncan postups, we had Tony + Manu breaking down defenses constantly with their speed + skill.

There is literally NOTHING wrong with Kawhi as a player - we don't have the right tools around him.

And LMA is fine. He puts up an efficient 15+ per game. He could do a little more for what he's being paid, but he's not the glaring issue - which is that we are old as phuk and Tony couldn't win a footrace against my grandpa.

[TD 21]

But now the next stride needs to be more penetration and three point shooting.

Leonard doesn't have the requisite speed/quickness/ball handling for it.



Agree with this. In a 7 game series, the teams who manufacture the best and most efficient shots will win more often than not. The Spurs manufacture too many long two's to ever beat the W's in a 7 game series and I honestly believe the Rockets will have an advantage over the Spurs in a series as well because of this very aspect.

:tu

This is why I said months ago, that beyond any personnel change, the organization needs to make a philosophical one first. Trying to zig while most zag sounded nice in theory, but it's time to stop pretending they're smarter than everyone else and join the modern NBA.



It's mostly a waste of time talking to him if you aren't going to be universally praising Kawhi in the conversation. Dude has no sense of objectivity.

:lol

[skulls138]

That's only a salve for the larger issue. As I said, the problem with Kawhi's offense isn't Kawhi usually. It was last game. There are more fundamental issues with how it affects the offense and defense. But that's not about him being selfish or inefficient. He's still trying to mature into a championship first option. He's getting better at passing when he can't score, but he has a ways to go in terms of setting guys up even when he can score.



That's very true. But there are more people who only see what they want to see. Saying things are Kawhi's fault has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation. It has everything to do with giving an honest evaluation.

Please, spare me the "why do you hate Kawhi?" talk. I love Kawhi. But there are problems with the team trying to win with him as their lead guy. Him being a better version of the same player he is right now wouldn't fix that problem. We just have to hope that guys like Parker and Manu are able to provide the driving the team needs when the time comes.I hear and agree but its more to do with the lack of help than Kawhi. Ill also agree that Kawhi looked a little flustered and tried to beat it through sheer force instead of passing in the GSW game. Ill just say it, its the lack of LA. I agreed with you in the beginning of the year, give it to LA and Kawhi can save energy for D by shooting threes off of teams double teaming LA, as well as Green and Patty...even Parker. But LA has to inspire confidence in the team. They have to want LA to be focal point and I think the team rallies around Kawhi much more. LA has to play like a man possessed in all phases of the game, for 48 minutes, every night. And hes got to do it for a long enough time that even Kawhi is willing to concede some of his power to him because Kawhis not going to just let LA take over on offense. LA still hasnt paid his dues yet.

[midnightpulp]

:lol So what you're saying is that the problem is the Spurs not Kawhi? If Kawhi had the exact same 3PT attempts on GS, he wouldn't be antiquated anymore?

KD also gets to the rim about 50% more.

And I never said Kawhi is "the" problem. It's obviously the backcourt, but getting a star PG just won't magically fix everything if your superstar is taking over 50% of his shots from the midrange.

KD also plays with the two best shooters in the league. Kawhi will never get that luxury. He's the Spurs best shooter, so he needs to take more 3s. Simple as that.

[midnightpulp]

Shotchart tonight :tu

Only 7 midrange attempts out of 21 shots (which he shot 3-7 on) and more 3s and layups.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/14xib02.jpg

Those 3s will start to fall again, and when they do, watch out.

[YGWHI]

Are you this dumb, really?

Who the fuck else should we hope for on this team that can get into the paint consistently? House? :lmao Manu? :lmao

Spurs didn't sign anyone, banking on Parker. We as fans have no choice but to deal with it, and hope for the best when Parker shows flashes.

As a playerfan first, you wouldn't understand.

Well, there is a big difference between saying that someones hopes he can do it and...thinking/posting he will do it. ""He can score 25 points against Warriors" "Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."


I like "light a candle for Parker" almost every game, I want TP to perform well but I know he won't do it against elite teams.

How someone who watches Spurs games can say "when Parker and Manu get hot" when they have the hot hand" they will never score +20 pts vs top teams, why it's that hard for you understand it.

They have other role now, I except they can make the right pass, the smart play to help the two main scorers to get going...But they won't get into the paint consistently ANYMORE.

I guess, you and Chinook are the only two guys who truly think that Parker can drive to the hoop against elite teams, even his die hard fans accept the reality.

[RD2191]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oxRmruSDzJEfNzgFW/giphy.gif

[Arcadian]

Kawhi has developed some excellent handles, and he has some tricky finishing moves. No reason why he can't become an elite penetrator.

[midnightpulp]

Well, there is a big difference between saying that someones hopes he can do it and...thinking/posting he will do it. ""He can score 25 points against Warriors" "Parker's having an Indian summer..Getting into the paint consistently..."


I like "light a candle for Parker" almost every game, I want TP to perform well but I know he won't do it against elite teams.

How someone who watches Spurs games can say "when Parker and Manu get hot" when they have the hot hand" they will never score +20 pts vs top teams, why it's that hard for you understand it.

They have other role now, I except they can make the right pass, the smart play to help the two main scorers to get going...But they won't get into the paint consistently ANYMORE.

I guess, you and Chinook are the only two guys who truly think that Parker can drive to the hoop against elite teams, even his die hard fans accept the reality.

Honestly, it's pointless to debate with you, since you're so intellectually dishonest and misquote posters for the purpose of strawmanning.

Here's what Chinook said:


If Tony's offense is having an Indian summer, he gets the ball.

Do you understand what "if" means?

And find me the quote where I said he "can" score 25 points against the Warriors? I remember saying he needs to be a "threat" to score that much if we're to have a shot. Also, "can" doesn't mean "will."

[midnightpulp]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oxRmruSDzJEfNzgFW/giphy.gif

Less midrange, more 3s/Layups, just like I wanted.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/14xib02.jpg

[skulls138]

Kawhi has developed some excellent handles, and he has some tricky finishing moves. No reason why he can't become an elite penetrator.I love how he keeps his dribble and leads with his shoulder. If the guard gets in front of him he pauses and goes again but doesnt pick up the dribble.

[YGWHI]

I hear and agree but its more to do with the lack of help than Kawhi. Ill also agree that Kawhi looked a little flustered and tried to beat it through sheer force instead of passing in the GSW game. Ill just say it, its the lack of LA. I agreed with you in the beginning of the year, give it to LA and Kawhi can save energy for D by shooting threes off of teams double teaming LA, as well as Green and Patty...even Parker. But LA has to inspire confidence in the team. They have to want LA to be focal point and I think the team rallies around Kawhi much more. LA has to play like a man possessed in all phases of the game, for 48 minutes, every night. And hes got to do it for a long enough time that even Kawhi is willing to concede some of his power to him because Kawhis not going to just let LA take over on offense. LA still hasnt paid his dues yet.

He says that "Kawhi's hurting the team and put them at risk..." He already knows that LMA wasn't a consistent offensive option this season but it doesnt matter, he should know that Parker won't "provide the driving" but it doesn't matter...They aren't hurting the team. Just Kawhi

"Kawhi will never be a 20-guy..." I never read other Spurs fan being that wrong about Kawhi's game.

I get the low expectations from non-Spurs fans, they never watched him as Spur since his 1st season, but a Spurs fan who has seen his improvements season after season...

You have to be a real hater to keep betting against him every game.

[DMC]

Honestly, it's pointless to debate with you, since you're so intellectually dishonest and misquote posters for the purpose of strawmanning.

Here's what Chinook said:



Do you understand what "if" means?

And find me the quote where I said he "can" score 25 points against the Warriors? I remember saying he needs to be a "threat" to score that much if we're to have a shot. Also, "can" doesn't mean "will."


There's three of four faggots on this forum who have that posting style and they have many different sock puppet accounts.

[FkLA]

Less midrange, more 3s/Layups, just like I wanted.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/14xib02.jpg

at GS:

http://i.imgur.com/ZmMvM0G.jpg



at CLE (30 FGAs):

http://i.imgur.com/l4wWpQm.jpg



vs HOU (most recent match-up):

http://i.imgur.com/Z6XHKNM.jpg


Midrange can result in wins too. Really, who cares as long as the Spurs win. This idea that there's an arbitrary amount of 3PT shots he has to take for the Spurs to have a shot is dumb.

[YGWHI]

Do you understand what "if" means?

IF means you truly think there is a possibility that something happens.

Most rational people know that won't happen anymore

Chinook said that Kawhi is hurting the team...Kawhi puts the team at risk...in this thread. But IF you want to act like he didnt...Fine. It doesn't surprise me at all. But then,you talk about intellectual dishonesty

[skulls138]

And "hurting" is a stretch in itself, especially after todays game. I have to eat a little crow myself for dogging LA. Hes a big reason for the comeback but its when hes a scrappy garbage man.

[YGWHI]

And "hurting" is a stretch in itself, especially after todays game. I have to eat a little crow myself for dogging LA. Hes a big reason for the comeback but its when hes a scrappy garbage man.

There are times when a player like Sabonis is on him...LMA should destroy that type of guys. For whatever reason he's not efficient exploiting those mismatches.

Pau did today, but most time our bigs don't take advantage of that. Which is crucial when this team doesn't have scoring threats at PG/SG positions, all what they have is their frontcourt.

[midnightpulp]

at GS:

http://i.imgur.com/ZmMvM0G.jpg



at CLE (30 FGAs):

http://i.imgur.com/l4wWpQm.jpg



vs HOU (most recent match-up):

http://i.imgur.com/Z6XHKNM.jpg


Midrange can result in wins too. Really, who cares as long as the Spurs win. This idea that there's an arbitrary amount of 3PT shots he has to take for the Spurs to have a shot is dumb.

No other top player takes over 50% of their shots from the midrange.. You can continue to deny the math, though.

Also, tell me what Kawhi shot from the midrange last playoffs?

[midnightpulp]

IF means you truly think there is a possibility that something happens.

Most rational people know that won't happen anymore

Chinook said that Kawhi is hurting the team...Kawhi puts the team at risk...in this thread. But IF you want to act like he didnt...Fine. It doesn't surprise me at all. But then,you talk about intellectual dishonesty

Most rational people also know the Spurs have the weakest guard rotation of all playoff teams, so the only logical thing to do is hope Parker finds a gear instead of bellyaching about how bad he plays sometimes.

[Chinook]

Most rational people also know the Spurs have the weakest guard rotation of all playoff teams, so the only logical thing to do is hope Parker finds a gear instead of bellyaching about how bad he plays sometimes.

I mean, maybe Kawhi scores 50 points on 40 possessions while locking down his man to give the Spurs a trophy. I just think hoping that the Spurs get enough good games between Parker and Manu combined with LMA and Green stepping up is a better way to go. The odds of the Spurs winning a series completely dependent on Kawhiso plays is just so slim. That he can get buckets like that is extremely helpful. That he gets so many that way isn't. Dude is relying on being a GOAT-level midrange shooter to carry his game now. Not only are teams more willing to let him shoot that shot, but it's much easier to help from the middle of the floor than from either extreme.

Though I guess in some people's minds, Kawhi's getting doubled because his supporting cast sucks.

[FkLA]

I mean, maybe Kawhi scores 50 points on 40 possessions while locking down his man to give the Spurs a trophy. I just think hoping that the Spurs get enough good games between Parker and Manu combined with LMA and Green stepping up is a better way to go. The odds of the Spurs winning a series completely dependent on Kawhiso plays is just so slim. That he can get buckets like that is extremely helpful. That he gets so many that way isn't. Dude is relying on being a GOAT-level midrange shooter to carry his game now. Not only are teams more willing to let him shoot that shot, but it's much easier to help from the middle of the floor than from either extreme.

Though I guess in some people's minds, Kawhi's getting doubled because his supporting cast sucks.

Wait, why can't there be a fair share of Kawhisos and those other guys perform as well? I don't get why those guys have to suck if Kawhi eats. Or why Kawhi has to stand in a corner all game if those other guys are doing ok.

He's getting doubled because of his 1-on-1 greatness. He needs to handle the double teams better, but at the same time noone outside of maybe Pau is currently shooting well enough to kill teams for doubling,

[apalisoc_9]

Wait, why can't there be a fair share of Kawhisos and those other guys perform as well? I don't get why those guys have to suck if Kawhi eats. Or why Kawhi has to stand in a corner all game if those other guys are doing ok.

He's getting doubled because of his 1-on-1 greatness. He needs to handle the double teams better, but at the same time noone outside of maybe Pau is currently shooting well enough to kill teams for doubling,

Exactly.

The perfect Combination is for Kawhi to play his game freely which the spurs have clearly tried to do despite the fact that Pop generally likes to put certain limitations on "freedom"

There's always a trade off when you change hand. If you take the freedom away from your current superstar, you risk losing his normal production and aggressivness. See players are humans too.

Kawhi needs to continue playing this way, the role players need to contribute when the ball tells them to shoot.

[apalisoc_9]

I think Kawhi is putting in the needed effort to shoot mlre threes, and Pop clearly has no problem with him taking ridiculous amount of three pointers regardless if its falling or not.

It makes sense. Him shooting threes creates more spaces for the other guys and is generally mathematically a better shot.

I highly doubt Kawhi ever develops a three pointer mentality though. Dude's been an post up, midrange guy since his second year.

Kid grew up watching Melo.

[RD2191]

I mean, maybe Kawhi scores 50 points on 40 possessions while locking down his man to give the Spurs a trophy. I just think hoping that the Spurs get enough good games between Parker and Manu combined with LMA and Green stepping up is a better way to go. The odds of the Spurs winning a series completely dependent on Kawhiso plays is just so slim. That he can get buckets like that is extremely helpful. That he gets so many that way isn't. Dude is relying on being a GOAT-level midrange shooter to carry his game now. Not only are teams more willing to let him shoot that shot, but it's much easier to help from the middle of the floor than from either extreme.

Though I guess in some people's minds, Kawhi's getting doubled because his supporting cast sucks.

His supporting cast does suck.

[skulls138]

Wait, why can't there be a fair share of Kawhisos and those other guys perform as well? I don't get why those guys have to suck if Kawhi eats. Or why Kawhi has to stand in a corner all game if those other guys are doing ok.

He's getting doubled because of his 1-on-1 greatness. He needs to handle the double teams better, but at the same time noone outside of maybe Pau is currently shooting well enough to kill teams for doubling,Its about striking the right balance. Everybody needs rhythm but theres only one ball. What I like about Kawhi is that unlike other iso players, he doesnt have an ego attached to it. He does iso because its needed. Once some confidence is gained through it, pass it around and let the threes rain down.

[DMC]

Wait, why can't there be a fair share of Kawhisos and those other guys perform as well? I don't get why those guys have to suck if Kawhi eats. Or why Kawhi has to stand in a corner all game if those other guys are doing ok.

He's getting doubled because of his 1-on-1 greatness. He needs to handle the double teams better, but at the same time noone outside of maybe Pau is currently shooting well enough to kill teams for doubling,

Kawhi settles for the long 2 because his 3 is struggling. He's lost arc. I feel like he has an injury to his hand or head that has affected his jump shot. Look at him before the concussion and after.

[SpursFan86]

Kawhi settles for the long 2 because his 3 is struggling. He's lost arc. I feel like he has an injury to his hand or head that has affected his jump shot. Look at him before the concussion and after.

Don't think it's that. From February 1st to March 9th (night he suffered the concussion vs. OKC), he shot 30.6% from 3. The slump started long before that injury.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mid is so far being proved right. Kawhi is struggling now that Fizdale has adjusted to stopping him. Ennis is really forcing his will right now, you can tell he learned from when Matty Barnes was there

[gambit1990]

Mid is so far being proved right. Kawhi is struggling now that Fizdale has adjusted to stopping him.


857333519667867648
:lmao

mid is right :lol
kawhi is struggling :lol

[dabom]

OP is NEVER right. :lol

If anyone ever agrees with OP your a dumbass.

Should we lose, I bet he comes in here and blame Kawhi first. :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Not necessarily calling out Kawhi. In fact, he doesn't deserve to be called out since he's the best basketball player in the league, but a mid-range centric offense built around a frontline can't succeed in the cartoon that is "Today's NBA."

If you don't chuck 40 threes per game, forgot about it. Just the way it is now.

[Clipper Nation]

In fact, he doesn't deserve to be called out since he's the best basketball player in the league

Did LeBron retire or something?

[DAF86]

Kawhi is fine. He's great at everything, and his madrange game comes in handy on hard fought playoffs games.

It's the buildup around him that's fucked up.

[therealtruth]

Kawhi should be averaging 40 against the Rockets defense.

[spurraider21]

Not necessarily calling out Kawhi. In fact, he doesn't deserve to be called out since he's the best basketball player in the league, but a mid-range centric offense built around a frontline can't succeed in the cartoon that is "Today's NBA."

If you don't chuck 40 threes per game, forgot about it. Just the way it is now.not necessarily calling out kawhi, just bumping the thread where i shit on him

[Phillip]

The worst model. That game just doesn't work today. Good for filling up the PPG column, but it doesn't pressure defenses like it once did.

this

best defense for it is to take away the drive, and pretty much live with the results of a bunch of turnaround jumpers, while focusing on keeping the other players out of the picture. this is basically why low post scoring isn't as useful anymore either. additionally, after rules changed and teams are allowed to play defenses that were illegal in the 80s and 90s, it allows the defense to also take away certain tendencies and looks that they couldnt in the past. the spurs and pistons in the mid 2000s laid the blueprint for all this in how they defended guys like kobe and shaq.

[140]

not necessarily calling out kawhi, just bumping the thread where i shit on him
:lmao OP

[FkLA]

Kawhi is fine. He's great at everything, and his madrange game comes in handy on hard fought playoffs games.

It's the buildup around him that's fucked up.

This. The team is antiquated not Kawhi. The dude is the best on the team in every offensive aspect (post-ups, midrange, threes, penetrating, playmaking). That's a recipe for disaster. He can't penetrate or draw a double team and kick it out to himself.

[midnightpulp]

not necessarily calling out kawhi, just bumping the thread where i shit on him

Where I have I shit on him?

People here are going to have to wake up to reality. If a player takes more midrange shots than 3s and layups, he'll lose the battle with players like Curry and Harden.

Kawhi lost the efficiency war with Trevor fuckin' Ariza last night, who chucked 10 threes.

[midnightpulp]

This. The team is antiquated not Kawhi. The dude is the best on the team in every offensive aspect (post-ups, midrange, threes, penetrating, playmaking). That's a recipe for disaster. He can't penetrate or draw a double team and kick it out to himself.

No. His offensive style is antiquated.

Where he makes up some of it is by getting to the line, but as I've told you numerous times, Harden, Curry, etc style will win out in the end unless Kawhi plays up to a historic level (>60% shooting from the midrange) or adjusts his game and shoots more 3s/drives more, which I do see happening. He shot 7 threes last night in 32 minutes.

[FkLA]

No. His offensive style is antiquated.

Where he makes up some of it is by getting to the line, but as I've told you numerous times, Harden, Curry, etc style will win out in the end unless Kawhi plays up to a historic level (>60% shooting from the midrange) or adjusts his game and shoots more 3s/drives more, which I do see happening. He shot 7 threes last night in 32 minutes.

Don't get your insistence on making it an individual/Kawhi thing. Sure, he isn't predominantly a 3PT shooter like the guys you keep bringing up are, but for a guy who's midrange game is deadly he also takes and makes his fair share of 3PTers. The team's offensive philosopy and personnel is way more antiquated than Kawhi's game.

Certainly comes off as you shitting on him when you choose to point the finger at him instead of pointing the finger at the much bigger problem.

[midnightpulp]

Don't get your insistence on making it an individual/Kawhi thing. Sure, he isn't predominantly a 3PT shooter like the guys you keep bringing up are, but for a guy who's midrange game is deadly he also takes and makes his fair share of 3PTers. The team's offensive philosopy and personnel is way more antiquated than Kawhi's game.

Certainly comes off as you shitting on him when you choose to point the finger at him instead of pointing the finger at the much bigger problem.

The Rockets have a weaker roster (on paper) and look at how Harden's style makes everyone better. You have journeyman scrubs like Ariza and Gordon and Williams threats to go off for 20 every night. Because defenses have to chase Harden around on the perimeter and/or collapse when he drives, he creates a shit-ton of open 3s. As I said earlier in this thread, post play doesn't pressure defenses like that.

Kawhi's style doesn't "open up" the floor.

Do I think Harden is better than Kawhi? No. Would I like to see basketball played league wide like Kawhi plays it? Yes.

But we're in the cartoon era of the NBA, and chucking/driving is what works. Look at Isaiah Thomas's chart from tonight. 33 shots and only 2 came from outside the paint.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/28wmhwn.jpg

Keep in mind that I don't endorse that shit basketball from an aesthetic standpoint, but it's the way you have to play now. It's sad, too, since the post-play is the most intriguing thing about basketball and the hardest skill to learn, now all obsolete.

[FkLA]

:lol The Rockets do not have a weaker roster on paper. Come on now. If you're calling those guys journeyman scrubs what does that make our wing rotation (outside of Kawhi)? Our PGs? Those soft ass bigs?

Also not that I think they're better without him, but pretty sure the Rockets have a positive net rating without Harden during the playoffs. He's mastered D'Antoni's offense and is the perfect guy to be at the forefront of it but that system is still generating offense without him. Which leads back to roster construction and offensive philosophy. Meanwhile the Spurs are still stuck in the 90s with their offensive approach.

[midnightpulp]

:lol The Rockets do not have a weaker roster on paper. Come on now. If you're calling those guys journeyman scrubs what does that make our wing rotation (outside of Kawhi)? Our PGs? Those soft ass bigs?

Also not that I think they're better without him, but pretty sure the Rockets have a positive net rating without Harden during the playoffs. He's mastered D'Antoni's offense and is the perfect guy to be at the forefront of it but that system is still generating offense without him. Which leads back to roster construction and offensive philosophy. Meanwhile the Spurs are still stuck in the 90s with their offensive approach.

Me, Harlem, and some others were joking that the Spurs can't possibly lose to a team whose second best player is Trevor Ariza.

This was LMA's first bad game of the playoffs. He worked his ass off on the boards and chipped in with what he could offensively against a mammoth frontline. Parker had a resurgence. Mills was a 6MOY candidate early on. Danny Green is an RPM "powerhouse." Pau Gasol has been an assassin off the bench since the AS break. The Spurs are pretty deep. Keep in mind we won the season series against them 3-1.

I'm just saying Harden's style will get more out of role players than will Kawhi's style.

[FkLA]

Me, Harlem, and some others were joking that the Spurs can't possibly lose to a team whose second best player is Trevor Ariza.

This was LMA's first bad game of the playoffs. He worked his ass off on the boards and chipped in with what he could offensively against a mammoth frontline. Parker had a resurgence. Mills was a 6MOY candidate early on. Danny Green is an RPM "powerhouse." Pau Gasol has been an assassin off the bench since the AS break. The Spurs are pretty deep. Keep in mind we won the season series against them 3-1.

I'm just saying Harden's style will get more out of role players than will Kawhi's style.

So the Spurs aren't antiquated? You're ridiculously biased in your descriptions btw. Parker has a good series and he's rejuvenated. Gordon has an entire, great 6MOY worthy season yet he's not rejuvenated but instead still a journeyman scrub. :lol

No issues conceding that Harden's style will get more out of role players. He's a PG in a system that fits him like a glove. Kawhi is a big-bodied SF. He's not antiquated for his position at all.

[Em-City]

Me, Harlem, and some others were joking that the Spurs can't possibly lose to a team whose second best player is Trevor Ariza.

Ok the second-best player is ariza, but he is essentially on par with capela, anderson, gordon, lou williams, beverley in terms of impact. players 2-7 on the HOU roster are better than anyone on the spurs roster outside kawhi & in-form aldridge.



I'm just saying Harden's style will get more out of role players than will Kawhi's style.

this is what this thread is about, and i don't think thi has been disproven as yet. I agree with you, and it's probably why Kawhi would work great with another perimeter slasher/creator.. like a prime manu.

[midnightpulp]

So the Spurs aren't antiquated? You're ridiculously biased in your descriptions btw. Parker has a good series and he's rejuvenated. Gordon has an entire, great 6MOY worthy season yet he's not rejuvenated but instead still a journeyman scrub. :lol

No issues conceding that Harden's style will get more out of role players. He's a PG in a system that fits him like a glove. Kawhi is a big-bodied SF. He's not antiquated for his position at all.

What other SFs primarily operate from post-ups and the midrange?

The Spurs are antiquated, but Kawhi is a part of that equation. I'm just saying that talent wise, the Spurs are better than the Rockets, and if Kawhi had a more "modern" style, Danny, Patty, and Manu would be bigger threats than they are. Harden would probably turn someone like Bertans into a nightly 15ppg threat.

Again, antiquated doesn't mean ineffective. It's entirely possible the Spurs win through controlling the boards and paint and wearing out the Rockets through length and size, old school style. Thunder almost did it to the 73 win Warriors last year. But the writing is on the wall for that style as the NBA "progresses" Pretty soon, it won't be possible for such a style to win.

[Nathan89]

LMA is a soft faggot and Green has 5 bad games for every good one. Come on man, just stop it.

Truth bomb.

[Nathan89]

He's surrounded by shit, you're acting as if he's surrounded by knock down shooters.

Spurs have the worst surrounding cast out of the remaining playoff teams.

[Nathan89]

What other SFs primarily operate from post-ups and the midrange?

The Spurs are antiquated, but Kawhi is a part of that equation. I'm just saying that talent wise, the Spurs are better than the Rockets, and if Kawhi had a more "modern" style, Danny, Patty, and Manu would be bigger threats than they are. Harden would probably turn someone like Bertans into a nightly 15ppg threat.

Again, antiquated doesn't mean ineffective. It's entirely possible the Spurs win through controlling the boards and paint and wearing out the Rockets through length and size, old school style. Thunder almost did it to the 73 win Warriors last year. But the writing is on the wall for that style as the NBA "progresses" Pretty soon, it won't be possible for such a style to win.


Neither Anderson nor Ariza average 15pts game. And that's in a system with all shooters. If Bertan's was one of many then yeah he could average that as well but not on a team that has Green, Pau, and Lma sharing the court.

[therealtruth]

Kawhi's got to learn to pass the ball. All of the great players were capable of averaging 5+ apg in the playoffs. It's all about making your teammates better.

[Nathan89]

Even Lebron James needs Kyrie at this point. Durant couldn't do anything without an elite pg. Kawhi's game is fine and especially for his position. He'd look a whole lot better if we had better teams that can shoot and penetrate. Meanwhile he has Green, Pau, and LMA that have no ability to dribble. It's impossible to win with that.

[RD2191]

Kawhi's got to learn to pass the ball. All of the great players were capable of averaging 5+ apg in the playoffs. It's all about making your teammates better.

LMAO. Pass it to who? Green was like 0-7 on wide open looks before he hit a couple late in the 3rd when we were already getting blown the fuk out. Fuck outta here with that weak shit.

[bic50]

Even Lebron James needs Kyrie at this point. Durant couldn't do anything without an elite pg. Kawhi's game is fine and especially for his position. He'd look a whole lot better if we had better teams that can shoot and penetrate. Meanwhile he has Green, Pau, and LMA that have no ability to dribble. It's impossible to win with that.
I heard that pau gasol is the Spurs best 3 point shooter outside of Leonard. . If true then thats unacceptable.

[bic50]

LMAO. Pass it to who? Green was like 0-7 on wide open looks before he hit a couple late in the 3rd when we were already getting blown the fuk out. Fuck outta here with that weak shit.

[dabom]

:lmao

[midnightpulp]

Bad bump, bro.

What did I argue in this thread? For Kawhi to attack the paint more, shoot 3s, instead of settling for 17-20 footers. He was taking 10 of those per game.

Look here:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/21j4sg8.jpg

Only 3 shots outside of the paint (aside from 3s, obviously).

I'm always right :hat

[Nathan89]

"antiquated":lmao

[pookenstein]

I really don't know how anybody is not getting what mid is repeating over and over again.
1. Kawhi is by far the best Spur.
2. He is shootig really fucking great from midrange.
3. He could be even better/more dangrous if he took one or two less midrange J's and instead take one or two more 3s per game. He's pretty good at that too.
4. That would make live easier for every other Spur.

Rocket science.

[therealtruth]

The midrange is usually what teams give up in the playoffs. So I agree you have to be selective about it but you can't win a championship without being able to hit the mid range jumper because the better teams will run you off the 3 line and protect the paint.

[DAF86]

Rockets fans begging his players to start taking more midrange jumpers.

The truth is that in the playoffs, where D's toughen up, the midrange game is a must. Specially for go to guys that have to create for themselves and others. Role players can get away with just hitting threes or taking it to the basket, but number one options need to have all the tools to get his team tough buckets, when needed. And the midrange still is (and will probably always be) the premiere tough bucket getter.

We are lucky to have Kawhi, tbh.

[Thomas82]

Rockets fans begging his players to start taking more midrange jumpers.

The truth is that in the playoffs, where D's toughen up, the midrange game is a must. Specially for go to guys that have to create for themselves and others. Role players can get away with just hitting threes or taking it to the basket, but number one options need to have all the tools to get his team tough buckets, when needed. And the midrange is still is (and will probably always be) the premiere tough bucket getter.

We are lucky to have Kawhi, tbh.

Good post!!

[140]

:lolp

[dabom]

:lolp

:lmao

[gambit1990]

:lolp

:lmao
mid: let me bitch about our star player playing effectively instead of bitching about our starting PG averaging ~5 assists per game.

mid would go on to say that assists per game isn't a good measurement :lmao

[gambit1990]

Lol, OP is the biggest faggot on this site.

[gambit1990]

calls kawhi's game antiquated while the starting PG doesn't make any player on the team better :lmao

[gambit1990]

Giannis is terrifying tbh...probably one of the few players in the league I'd trade Kawhi for
i'm glad OP and this faggot aren't a part of the FO.

[gambit1990]

i like giannis too... except i wouldn't trade kawhi for him you stupid cuck :lmao

[LakerHater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl8RvgLywz8

[hitmanyr2k]

Rockets fans begging his players to start taking more midrange jumpers.

The truth is that in the playoffs, where D's toughen up, the midrange game is a must. Specially for go to guys that have to create for themselves and others. Role players can get away with just hitting threes or taking it to the basket, but number one options need to have all the tools to get his team tough buckets, when needed. And the midrange still is (and will probably always be) the premiere tough bucket getter.

We are lucky to have Kawhi, tbh.

Agreed, because he got smart fast to diversify his game. I wrote this post on another forum 6 years ago regarding players developing low post games when Lebron was fizzling in the 2011 Finals. When it comes to skill set Kawhi is far ahead.


Who cares about age? Lebron has been in the league for 8 freakin seasons. Plenty of players had a low/high post back-to-the-basket game by their 8th season. The Dallas Mavericks are disrespecting Lebron putting Jason Kidd on him at times and he can't even take advantage of the matchup. Put Jason Kidd on Kobe Bryant and he's getting posted up. Put Jason Kidd on Carmelo Anthony and he's getting posted up. In the past? Put Jason Kidd on Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Penny Hardaway, his teammate Nick Anderson, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Steve Smith and he's getting posted up. Hell, even Bonzi Wells comes to mind. He had a nice post game in only his 2nd year in the league.

I've been saying the last 2 years there's no reason for a player of that size with that kind of athleticism and speed not to have a post game. When those driving lanes are cut off and your shot isn't falling it's just another weapon to go to in your arsenal. It's rare that something bad comes out of a good post game. It's a high percentage shot. It's a matchup nightmare when you have a smaller player guarding you. It forces the defense to react and double which opens up passing lanes and shooters. Anything is better than sitting on the perimeter looking like an idiot with a midget guarding you.

The same can be said for Kevin Durant. He has all the length in the world and a great shooting touch. He could kill with even an average post game. Who's going to block a jumphook from him with those long arms? Instead he's either getting denied the ball on the perimeter by good defenders, shooting 30 foot shots at the end of games or forced to watch Westbrook take over down the stretch. It's just retarded. He and Lebron need to wise the f*** up.

[spursistan]

1129565686286692357

midnightpulp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) called it in these endless debates with his fanboys and the same shit is likely gonna play out here....


Kawhi-ISO won't cut it against the elite teams. He doesn't make his teammates better when the ball sticks with him and the offense doesn't have a layer of explosiveness as a result..

[midnightpulp]

1129565686286692357

midnightpulp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) called it in these endless debates with his fanboys and the same shit is likely gonna play out here....


Kawhi-ISO won't cut it against the elite teams. He doesn't make his teammates better when the ball sticks with him and the offense doesn't have a layer of explosiveness as a result..

Isoball=death in today's game, especially when those possessions are midrange centric.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Isoball=death in today's game, especially when those possessions are midrange centric.

Kawhi-ISO won't cut it against the elite teams. He doesn't make his teammates better when the ball sticks with him and the offense doesn't have a layer of explosiveness as a result..


It doesn't work for Harden either, once the playoffs come around.

[testies]

I actually feel bad, the cancerous ISO mid range is being exported by the Spurs franchise to destroy other franchises and make other fans suffer. Pop ball is a cancer.

[Jonnyblue19]

It doesn't work for Harden either, once the playoffs come around.

Exactly, Kiwi has been looking like Harden more and more as the playoffs continue. He keeps over dribbling and only passing if they trap or double team him. That isn't winning basketball but Nurse or Pringles let their star player do whatever they want.

What is odd about Pringles is when he had Nash he would pick and roll you to death, I know he had Amare back then, but he should have told Harden to attack Golden State on the pick and roll, like what the Clippers were doing with Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell did. Even Chris Fall was destroying the Warriors in the pick and roll and he is slow and decrepit.

[cutewizard]

poor kawhi

not that good

very low bbiq

lol

[cutewizard]

kawhi just bamboozled by ilyasova

[cutewizard]

alvin patrimonio >>>>>>>>>>kawhi

[cutewizard]

FOR BASKETBALL HEART


SAMBOY LIM >>>>>>>>>>>>> kawhi

[cutewizard]

ramon fernandez >>>>>>>>> kawhi

[Mikeanaro]

Nocioni>>>>>>>>>>>> Nephew

[Mikeanaro]

Agreed, because he got smart fast to diversify his game. I wrote this post on another forum 6 years ago regarding players developing low post games when Lebron was fizzling in the 2011 Finals. When it comes to skill set Kawhi is far ahead.
In 2019
Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kawhi

[YGWHI]

1129565686286692357

midnightpulp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) called it in these endless debates with his fanboys and the same shit is likely gonna play out here....



Isoball=death in today's game, especially when those possessions are midrange centric.

Stop acting like Kawhi doen't make his teammates better or his game it's only mid-range j's. He has one of the most versalite offensive games in this league...

It's not his fault his teammates can't hit a single open shot.

1128766648767397889

If Kawhi would have Bucks 3-p shooters on his team he would average at least 8 asp.

1128769711733448705
Yeah...only mid-js, right?

He generated the most open shots for teammates in the league...Average +30 ppg in semis and finals of conference...

But @midnight was the guy who said Kawhi wouldn't match Durant or LeBron points in playoffs...He scored the most pts in a series since Jordan's finals.

[r0drig0lac]

1129565686286692357

midnightpulp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) called it in these endless debates with his fanboys and the same shit is likely gonna play out here....


Kawhi-ISO won't cut it against the elite teams. He doesn't make his teammates better when the ball sticks with him and the offense doesn't have a layer of explosiveness as a result..

the biggest problem in this game was that no Toronto player (except # 2) could hit an open shot, # 2 was doubled and passed to the player open on practically every play, which resulted in a brick, the brutal difference in that confrontation is the support roster of the stars, not the game style

[midnightpulp]

.




Stop acting like Kawhi doen't make his teammates better or his game it's only mid-range j's. He has one of the most versalite offensive games in this league...

It's not his fault his teammates can't hit a single open shot.

1128766648767397889

If Kawhi would have Bucks 3-p shooters on his team he would average at least 8 asp.

1128769711733448705
Yeah...only mid-js, right?

He generated the most open shots for teammates in the league...Average +30 ppg in semis and finals of conference...

But @midnight was the guy who said Kawhi wouldn't match Durant or LeBron points in playoffs...He scored the most pts in a series since Jordan's finals.

36% on open 3s is a good percentage. Don't know why this idiot tweeter thinks it's "not so good." Sure, you'd probably like it to be more around 40 percent, but shooting percentages typically go down in the post-season. Second point. Kawhi takes 21 percent of his attempts from the 10-16 foot range and 10 percent of his attempts from the 16-22 foot range. Contrast this to Giannis who takes 7 percent of his attempts from the 10-16 foot range and 2.3 percent of his attempts from the 16-22 foot range. Kawhi is still taking too many midrange jumpshots. Right now, he's shooting 63 percent from 16-22 feet. Not sustainable. Durant is another midrange centric player and we've seen how Golden State's offense has opened up somewhat with him out of the line-up.

Everyone sees how Kawhi's primary offensive style affects the offense, from Lowe, et al. But no, it's never Kawhi's fault. Not when he gets outplayed by Matt Barnes, when he disappears against the Thunder, or when he goes 10-26 in a close game. It's the fault of his teammates. I've said earlier in this thread that even though Kawhi is still a championship centerpiece, he's more difficult to build around than other superstars and will likely need a Curry level PG as a running mate (much like Durant). Kyle Lowry is no longer the player he was a couple years ago.

[RC_Drunkford]

Everyone sees how Kawhi's primary offensive style affects the offense, from Lowe, et al. But no, it's never Kawhi's fault. Not when he gets outplayed by Matt Barnes, when he disappears against the Thunder, or when he goes 10-26 in a close game. It's the fault of his teammates. I've said earlier in this thread that even though Kawhi is still a championship centerpiece, he's more difficult to build around than other superstars and will likely need a Curry level PG as a running mate (much like Durant). Kyle Lowry is no longer the player he was a couple years ago.

from what I heard Danny Green said on his last podcast that it's hard for everybody else to get into a rhythm cause of Kawhi isos

[YGWHI]

Not when he gets outplayed by Matt Barnes, when he disappears against the Thunder, or when he goes 10-26 in a close game. It's the fault of his teammates.

I can't remember a single player that played great every single game in a whole playoffs.

Kawhi had at least 4 good to great games in those series vs Clips/OKC...But it was true that he didn't get help from others when he didn't hit shots.

Giannis didn't play that good in game 1 but his teammates won the game. Kawhi was 10-26? Lebron was 9-24 in the 2016 Finals but had Irving making the last shot and Love in a good defensive play vs Curry in last seconds...After 2014 Kawhi didn't have that help anymore.

[Hoops Czar]

from what I heard Danny Green said on his last podcast that it's hard for everybody else to get into a rhythm cause of Kawhi isos
What was everybody's excuse before Kawhi got there?

[duncan2k5]

This idiot really said Giannis has a more favorable offensive game than Kawhi because he doesn't take jumpers........ BECAUSE HE CAN'T!!!!!! it's funny how perspectives change... When we had Kawhi, we used to bash ppl saying Giannis is better by mentioning how he can't shoot... Now ppl view that as the reason he is better... Lmfao

[spurraider21]

36% on open 3s is a good percentage. Don't know why this idiot tweeter thinks it's "not so good." Sure, you'd probably like it to be more around 40 percent, but shooting percentages typically go down in the post-season. Second point. Kawhi takes 21 percent of his attempts from the 10-16 foot range and 10 percent of his attempts from the 16-22 foot range. Contrast this to Giannis who takes 7 percent of his attempts from the 10-16 foot range and 2.3 percent of his attempts from the 16-22 foot range. Kawhi is still taking too many midrange jumpshots. Right now, he's shooting 63 percent from 16-22 feet. Not sustainable. Durant is another midrange centric player and we've seen how Golden State's offense has opened up somewhat with him out of the line-up.

Everyone sees how Kawhi's primary offensive style affects the offense, from Lowe, et al. But no, it's never Kawhi's fault. Not when he gets outplayed by Matt Barnes, when he disappears against the Thunder, or when he goes 10-26 in a close game. It's the fault of his teammates. I've said earlier in this thread that even though Kawhi is still a championship centerpiece, he's more difficult to build around than other superstars and will likely need a Curry level PG as a running mate (much like Durant). Kyle Lowry is no longer the player he was a couple years ago.
36% on total 3's is fine. i dno the numbers, but you're presumably looking for better numbers on "open" 3's

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Isoball=death in today's game, especially when those possessions are midrange centric.

But he’ll put up great numbers. I did find it interesting that Toronto’s offense looked a lot more fluid in the games he sat out in the regular season. I think what the Bucks are exposing, however, is that the rest of the Toronto team is not that good offensively, at least not the way they’re run. I can’t figure out if Nurse is a coach with limited skills or if he’s a bit hand-tied having to coach to please Kawhi.

[Nathan89]

Toronto's offense tanks far more when he's off the court than any players impact on their team in the playoffs.

[therealtruth]

The one flaw in his game is he's got to learn how to make the other players better. He can get his any time he wants but you have to let others touch the ball and get a rhythm from the field.

[BillMc]

It always amazes me how accurate KL's jumper is. The arc is so flat. But it definitely works.

[Nathan89]

AnTiQuateD oFFenSiVE gaME:lmao

[Nathan89]

Time to praise Giannis shot chart because he doesn't have the ability to shoot.

[RD2191]

OP with the bads, per usual:lol

[lefty]

1129565686286692357

midnightpulp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) called it in these endless debates with his fanboys and the same shit is likely gonna play out here....


Kawhi-ISO won't cut it against the elite teams. He doesn't make his teammates better when the ball sticks with him and the offense doesn't have a layer of explosiveness as a result..

........

[Nathan89]

5 made 3's and 9 assists is pretty solid. Kawhi's may be a mid-range player like Durant but his ability to hit 3's in the playoffs doesn't disappear like Durant.

[Nathan89]

Kawhi continues his "unsustainable" playoff performance. He also had an "unsustainable" playoff performance in 2017. I wonder if will see more "unsustainable" playoff performances in the future.

[midnightpulp]

Helmet crew trying to ownage bump :lol. Let's look at the old shot chart:

Yeah, he really did a lot of damage from the midrange going 2-10.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/1rc1fd.jpg

Be prudent to read the thread before bumping and see the arguments, in which I advocate for Kawhi getting to the rim more (8 points on 100 percent shooting). His midrange game didn't win shit tonight.

[RD2191]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--ekR6jG4Iwk/Tw4zvKN4RCI/AAAAAAAAAn0/IX-VBCUOUvs/s1600/didnt-read-lol-chicken-gif.gif

[Nathan89]

Yeah, because he's a complete player that is capable of also hitting 3's. In other words his offensive game is not antiquated. His midrange game wins him some games. Tonight his 3pt shot was a big factor.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi continues his "unsustainable" playoff performance. He also had an "unsustainable" playoff performance in 2017. I wonder if will see more "unsustainable" playoff performances in the future.

I called his 16-22 foot shooting percentage unsustainable. Tell me what he shot from that distance tonight? He killed it from the most efficient areas on the court tonight, which is what I was arguing for over this entire thread, that he should take less midrange shots and put those attempts toward shooting more 3s and trying to get to the rim. He still took too many midrange shots, but fortunately was on fire from 3 and made 4/5 close range attempts. You dunces are so eager to "bump" you fail to familiarize yourselves with the arguments before hand.

[Nathan89]

So on any given night he's capable of killing it from anywhere on the court.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, because he's a complete player that is capable of also hitting 3's. In other words his offensive game is not antiquated. His midrange game wins him some games. Tonight his 3pt shot was a big factor.

His midrange has won zero games in this series. He was 2-10 in the Game 3. 2-4 in Game 4. And 2 for 10 tonight. So, if you have a player who can shoot the 3 at a high percentage, why the fuck would you want him shooting anything from 15-22 feet?

[Nathan89]

His midrange has won zero games in this series. He was 2-10 in the Game 3. 2-4 in Game 4. And 2 for 10 tonight. So, if you have a player who can shoot the 3 at a high percentage, why the fuck would you want him shooting anything from 15-22 feet?

He has been playing hurt. I didn't say his midrange game won him games this series.

[therealtruth]

I believe he had his career high in assists playoffs or regular season. If he can unlock that aspect of his game he would have taken that next step. He can already get a basket any time you want but now he can directly make his teammates better with his passing.

[Nathan89]

Yeah, because the defense collapses on him. Even when he doesn't get the assist it often leads to a hockey assist.

[midnightpulp]

He has been playing hurt. I didn't say his midrange game won him games this series.

Doesn't seem like his injury affected his shooting from deep tonight :lol.

Kawhi is a about a 40% career 3 point shooter and about a 45% career shooter from the 10-22 foot midrange distance. To equalize his 3 point efficiency, he'd have to shoot 60% from that distance, which he never has in the regular season or playoffs. At the time I called his 16-22 foot percentage "unsustainable," he was shooting something like 65% from that distance. It's down to 55% prior to tonight, and will probably be below 50% afterwards. So why the fuck would you want your 40 percent career 3 point shooter taking more shots from what is considered the most inefficient spots on the court, even for Kawhi?

Sure, sometimes the 3 ball and driving lanes aren't there and you have to settle for the midrange jumper, but it's a shot that shouldn't be prioritized. Kawhi, all too often, especially with the Spurs, gets in the habit of Jordan/Kobe-ball (midrange isos and pull-ups), which Lowe called out. That it is an "antiquated" strategy in the modern game, no matter how you spin it.

[TheGreatYacht]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--ekR6jG4Iwk/Tw4zvKN4RCI/AAAAAAAAAn0/IX-VBCUOUvs/s1600/didnt-read-lol-chicken-gif.gif
:lmao

[YGWHI]

"but but Kawhi will never match Curry/KD scoring..Mid-range is death...He doesn't make his teammates better..."

"All nine dimes for Kawhi led to 3-pointers, so he scored or assisted on 62 points tonight. Not bad."

https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/1131763891158093824

[YGWHI]

which Lowe called out.

It's funny that we still mention Lowe like a basketball guru when he's mostly wrong than right on his takes.

[midnightpulp]

"but but Kawhi will never match Curry/KD scoring..Mid-range is death...He doesn't make his teammates better..."

"All nine dimes for Kawhi led to 3-pointers, so he scored or assisted on 62 points tonight. Not bad."

https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/1131763891158093824

Show me those midrange shooting statistics from him over the last 3 games. You Kiwi fanboys are so fuckin' sensitive :lol. :cry If Kawhi isn't celebrated as the perfect player, you're just a hater! :cry. And Kawhi still isn't the scorer Curry and Durant are.

[midnightpulp]

It's funny that we still mention Lowe like a basketball guru when he's mostly wrong than right on his takes.

Uh, he was fuckin' right? Kawhi has shot 6-24 from the midrange over the past 3 wins. His midrange game isn't what is winning. And for all the criticism thrown at Kawhi's teammates for not stepping up, Lowry and Van Vleet have been great. Lowry is averaging 20 points per on a ridiculous .721 TS% over the series. That fact is conveniently overlooked as you and yours open wide for Kawhi.

What was my entire argument in this thread? That Kawhi focusing too much on his midrange game in lieu of 3s and layups/dunks isn't a good strategy. Looks like I'm right since the Raptors aren't winning with him shooting lights out from the midrange. They're winning on the 3 ball.

[Nathan89]

Doesn't seem like his injury affected his shooting from deep tonight :lol.

Kawhi is a about a 40% career 3 point shooter and about a 45% career shooter from the 10-22 foot midrange distance. To equalize his 3 point efficiency, he'd have to shoot 60% from that distance, which he never has in the regular season or playoffs. At the time I called his 16-22 foot percentage "unsustainable," he was shooting something like 65% from that distance. It's down to 55% prior to tonight, and will probably be below 50% afterwards. So why the fuck would you want your 40 percent career 3 point shooter taking more shots from what is considered the most inefficient spots on the court, even for Kawhi?

Sure, sometimes the 3 ball and driving lanes aren't there and you have to settle for the midrange jumper, but it's a shot that shouldn't be prioritized. Kawhi, all too often, especially with the Spurs, gets in the habit of Jordan/Kobe-ball (midrange isos and pull-ups), which Lowe called out. That it is an "antiquated" strategy in the modern game, no matter how you spin it.

That was just a coincidence. 2 of the 3's were step backs with Lopez putting a hand up. Maybe some of the others were spot up 3's. Like you said his midrange shot is a higher percentage. Of course the value of the 3pt shot is more.

That's fine. I'm aware that he's very capable 3pt shooter and that has greater value than his midrange shots. The pts made on the the midrange shot isn't the only value of the shot. Making a shot at a higher percentage has value because you can set up your defense. Having the defender play you tight allows you to get more fts. It allows you to create from more areas of the court. It allows you to hit a higher percentage shot when you only need 1 or 2 pts. Also nobody said I wanted him to take more midrange shots.

[Nathan89]

Durant can't even shoot 3's in the playoffs when he's not on GSW.

[Nathan89]

"Kawhi hasn't shot the midrange well the 3 games he's been on one leg."

[midnightpulp]

Or the Spurs need to find/develop a 20ppg point guard threat with Kawhi scaling back his midrange game and looking to dribble-drive more.

Kyle Lowry: 20ppg on .721TS in this series. Raptors up 3-2. Kawhi, still taking too many midrange jumpers, but has offset his poor midrange shooting percentage over the last 3 games with good 3 point shooting, getting to the rim, and getting to the line.

[midnightpulp]

That was just a coincidence. 2 of the 3's were step backs with Lopez putting a hand up. Maybe some of the others were spot up 3's. Like you said his midrange shot is a higher percentage. Of course the value of the 3pt shot is more.

That's fine. I'm aware that he's very capable 3pt shooter and that has greater value than his midrange shots. The pts made on the the midrange shot isn't the only value of the shot. Making a shot at a higher percentage has value because you can set up your defense. Having the defender play you tight allows you to get more fts. It allows you to create from more areas of the court. It allows you to hit a higher percentage shot when you only need 1 or 2 pts. Also nobody said I wanted him to take more midrange shots.

Then what was the fuckin' purpose of bumping this thread? I called Kawhi's game antiquated as it relates to how midrange centric his game can be at times. 10 midrange attempts from a 40% 3 point shooter isn't a winning strategy. You'd like to see those attempts cut in half and go toward shooting more 3s.

Yes, I've also argued that during the endgame (late 4th quarter) in a close contest, the priority should just be to score and not worry about PPS efficiency. The midrange can be beneficial in that scenario. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about when Kawhi prioritizes his midrange game above all else in an effort to emulate his heroes Jordan and Kobe (those are the styles most players of his generation patterned themselves after, so sometimes he'll fall into that habit). That is an "antiquated" offensive style. There's no spinning that.

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi needs to continue shooting the midrange since so many of his hesitation moves is done with the midrange in mind.

He doesnt have the finese or speed to consistently reach the paint or three point explosivness to continue hitting threes so he has to rely on his efficiency in the paint and the three.

I suspect his percentage around the rim and his 3 will struggle a lot if he suddenly decides to go Houston Rockets style.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi needs to continue shooting the midrange since so many of his hesitation moves is done with the midrange in mind.

He doesnt have the finese or speed to consistently reach the paint or three point explosivness to continue hitting threes so he has to rely on his efficiency in the paint and the three.

I suspect his percentage around the rim and his 3 will struggle a lot if he suddenly decides to go Houston Rockets style.

You can achieve that meta game by taking 5 or so attempts. Once the seed is planted, defenses will honor. If he wants to be midrange centric, that puts more pressure on the Raps role players to hit their 3s.

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi continues his "unsustainable" playoff performance. He also had an "unsustainable" playoff performance in 2017. I wonder if will see more "unsustainable" playoff performances in the future.

[duncan2k5]

Then what was the fuckin' purpose of bumping this thread? I called Kawhi's game antiquated as it relates to how midrange centric his game can be at times. 10 midrange attempts from a 40% 3 point shooter isn't a winning strategy. You'd like to see those attempts cut in half and go toward shooting more 3s.

Yes, I've also argued that during the endgame (late 4th quarter) in a close contest, the priority should just be to score and not worry about PPS efficiency. The midrange can be beneficial in that scenario. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about when Kawhi prioritizes his midrange game above all else in an effort to emulate his heroes Jordan and Kobe (those are the styles most players of his generation patterned themselves after, so sometimes he'll fall into that habit). That is an "antiquated" offensive style. There's no spinning that.

Isn't a winning strategy? Dude is literally one game away from the finals... That's more winning than every bother team in the league except the one waiting for them

[midnightpulp]

Isn't a winning strategy? Dude is literally one game away from the finals... That's more winning than every bother team in the league except the one waiting for them

6-24 is a winning strategy (midrange shooting percentage over the past 3 games)?

No, the Raptors are 1 game away from the NBA Finals. Lowry and VanVleet have been very good over the past 3 wins, with Siakam and Powell having a big game 3. Kawhi's scoring is coming via the 3, FTs, and at the rim, and not via trying to play like Jordan. When he does try to play like Jordan, he's missing shots.

[duncan2k5]

6-24 is a winning strategy (midrange shooting percentage over the past 3 games)?

No, the Raptors are 1 game away from the NBA Finals. Lowry and VanVleet have been very good over the past 3 wins, with Siakam and Powell having a big game 3. Kawhi's scoring is coming via the 3, FTs, and at the rim, and not via trying to play like Jordan. When he does try to play like Jordan, he's missing shots.

So I guess without Kawhi, they would beat the Bucks then?

[midnightpulp]

So I guess without Kawhi, they would beat the Bucks then?

You're still not understanding the argument. I also made this thread in 2017, and at the time, beating the Warriors was the goal. Our best player centering his offense around midpost/midrange wasn't going to get the job done. I wanted Kawhi taking more 3s and trying to get to the rim. And for the last 3 games against the Bucks, that is where he's been doing his damage, not from the midrange.

[DAF86]

Helmet crew trying to ownage bump :lol. Let's look at the old shot chart:

Yeah, he really did a lot of damage from the midrange going 2-10.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/1rc1fd.jpg

Be prudent to read the thread before bumping and see the arguments, in which I advocate for Kawhi getting to the rim more (8 points on 100 percent shooting). His midrange game didn't win shit tonight.

The shots at the rim and the 3 pointers open up for Kawhi because he can hit the midrange and vice versa. He's a complete beast, he was never antiquated.

[midnightpulp]

The shots at the rim and the 3 pointers open up for Kawhi because he can hit the midrange and vice versa. He's a complete beast, he was never antiquated.

You don't need to take 10 midrange shots to get defenses to honor it as a possibility. Also, modern defenses actually try to force teams to shoot midrange jumpers.

"Well, Kawhi is different since he shoots midrange shots so efficienctly."

He's one of the best midrange shooters in the game, indeed, but is still only a 45 percent career shooter. I'd let him have 18 footers all day over threes. If he beats me from there, so be it.

[JeffDuncan]

...

He's one of the best midrange shooters in the game, indeed, but is still only a 45 percent career shooter. ...

You need to check your numbers.

[midnightpulp]

You need to check your numbers.

I meant on midrange attempts from 10-22 feet.

[YGWHI]

"But but he doesn't make his teammates better"

Surprise surprise...Once raptors shooters started to make open shots...Kawh's asp increased.

It's a shame that people here who say they watch games didn't notice his improvements at playmaker...He was creating for others so well vs Sixers too but most of his teammates couldn't hit an ocean in that series.

9 last game. 7 tonight.

"antiguated"?? well he's putting 90's-Jordan numbers.

1132499751377747968

[Bill_Brasky]

Kawhi being able to beat double teams with good passing = uh oh for opposing teams, pretty much like any star player

[TDMVPDPOY]

the year kawhi led team to wcf vs this year

u notice he doesnt stagnate the offense when his dribbling closer to the key for the defense to collapse on him? he doesnt do this on the raptors till lately in the playoffs...

but but the idiots in here keep on saying his not a playmaker, his over dribbling kills the spurs offense, rather have the ball in his hands shooting the ball then watching green bricking bricks, wombat chucking bricks, lma shooting bricks over midgets

[RC_Drunkford]

Kawhi had multiple playoff games as a Spur where he put up 7-8 assists. That narrative is bullshit

[duncan2k5]

Kawhi had multiple playoff games as a Spur where he put up 7-8 assists. That narrative is bullshit

Not to mention we were near the top of the league in assists when he was here... Kawhi can average a couple more assists like lebron, harden and demar... But look where they're at now

[DPG21920]

"But but he doesn't make his teammates better"

Surprise surprise...Once raptors shooters started to make open shots...Kawh's asp increased.

It's a shame that people here who say they watch games didn't notice his improvements at playmaker...He was creating for others so well vs Sixers too but most of his teammates couldn't hit an ocean in that series.

9 last game. 7 tonight.

"antiguated"?? well he's putting 90's-Jordan numbers.

1132499751377747968

Happy for you and your family! I know Kawhi means a lot to you and the amount of effort and time you spend on a rival message board educating fans about Kawhi is noble.

But I have to disagree with you conflating 2 games with high assist numbers as some sign that he has improved a ton as a playmaker.

He prefers to shoot. That’s fine. He’s not passing unless he has to and unless it’s the clear and obvious choice. He’s not someone with great vision nor are his passes (the vast majority of them) difficult or ahead of the playmaking curve.

That’s fine, he’s still top 3, but I disagree with your premise and how you framed your point.

[midnightpulp]

Happy for you and your family! I know Kawhi means a lot to you and the amount of effort and time you spend on a rival message board educating fans about Kawhi is noble.

But I have to disagree with you conflating 2 games with high assist numbers as some sign that he has improved a ton as a playmaker.

He prefers to shoot. That’s fine. He’s not passing unless he has to and unless it’s the clear and obvious choice. He’s not someone with great vision nor are his passes (the vast majority of them) difficult or ahead of the playmaking curve.

That’s fine, he’s still top 3, but I disagree with your premise and how you framed your point.

:lol assists. It's an "antiquated" stat to determine how good a player playmakes. I also never claimed Kawhi doesn't make teammates better/worse. My whole argument in this thread was about tapering off some of his midrange game in favor of getting to the rim/shooting more 3s. In 2017, when I made this thread, he was taking 21% of his attempts from 16-22 feet, the most inefficient range on the court. This year, he took 15% from that distance. His 0-3 foot attempt percentage increased from 17% in 2017 to 25% this season. So it looks like someone gave him the memo.

And why is the helmet crew bumping this thread when he shot 41 percent from the field and had 6 turnovers, which gave him a poor assist-to-turnover ratio. Oh, all them rebounds? I've called Leonard the best SF rebounder of his generation. It's funny how they YGWHI bump and strawman every time Kawhi has a good game. I never claimed he wasn't a championship team centerpiece. Also funny that these dipshits are following him to other teams. The modern NBA fan, back of the jersey over the front.

[midnightpulp]

As I said:



Or the Spurs need to find/develop a 20ppg point guard threat, with Kawhi scaling back his midrange game and looking to dribble-drive more.

Ultimately, Kawhi + right talent >> Harden + right talent. But Harden is compatible with more types of talent.

Kyle Lowry averaged 19, 5, 5 on 70% TS in the series. When's the last time the Spurs got anything like that from a PG?

[YGWHI]

Happy for you and your family! I know Kawhi means a lot to you
Thanks! I really appreciate this.


He’s not someone with great vision nor are his passes (the vast majority of them) difficult or ahead of the playmaking curve.
It seems like you didn't watch Raptors' games or highlights but it's fine, Skip.

Also, this wasn't about Kawhi anymore. This was about mid/timvp/chinook being so wrong.

"but but Derozan is a better offensive player than Kawhi...we never had a natual scorer like him... maybe Parker" that first thread after the trade... :lol

I still remember Chinook saying Kawhi should trot to the corner and wait there...and this midnight's trade.

Like Kawhi said..."I'm enjoying the moment". THIS moment.

[DPG21920]

Thanks! I really appreciate this.


It seems like you didn't watch Raptors' games or highlights but it's fine, Skip.

Also, this wasn't about Kawhi anymore. This was about mid/timvp/chinook being so wrong.

"but but Derozan is a better offensive player than Kawhi...we never had a natual scorer like him... maybe Parker" that first thread after the trade... :lol

I still remember Chinook saying Kawhi should trot to the corner and wait there...and this midnight's trade.

Like Kawhi said..."I'm enjoying the moment". THIS moment.

Lol accusing me of not watching the games after saying what you said. You like to scoreboard a lot don’t you? Even when it makes no sense