Duncan sounds off on the dress code

[Marcus Bryant]

Hey!



Iverson has already agreed to dress like a

30 y/o and not like a

16y/o punk!


Great. Has Nash done the same?

[Jimcs50]

I don't know what's worse...the NBA instituting a dress code policy to respond to the thinly veiled racism detected by certain corporate sponsors amongst the prospective NBA fan base or Spurs fans so ready to side with ownership (again) and dump on the franchise's greatest player ever because he wants to wear sandals before he plays a game wearing shorts and a wifebeater.

Marcus, you are the master of exaggeration and hyperbole.

Name one person that said they want to dump TD. Name one.


BTW, now Jim Rome is dragging TD through the coals as we speak.

Thanks again, TD, you are now labled a freaking punk.

Damn!!!

[remingtonbo2001]

But they didn't. So it doesn't matter. What matters is what they did do. They are not going to ban cornrows. All I'm saying is adhere to the rules. If you want the policy overturned then use your actions to prove that the image of the NBA can survive with medallions, ect. Hair is apart of your body. Obviously, I'm sure if length was too long, and I mean three times as long as Giniobli's, then they would require it be cut. A medallion is not apart of your body. You know what, I'm just going around in circles. You guys have at it.
THE MAN IS OUT TO GET YOU. Coperate America is the root of all EVIL. Well, I hope someday, you will see everyone for what they are, human beings. Instead of relying on influencial social groups to tell who is who and why there different. It is truely PATHETIC that such an issue has come to cries of rasim. Then again, what issue hasn't.

[Marcus Bryant]

Marcus, you are the master of exageration and hyperbole.

Name one person that said they want to dump TD. Name one.


BTW, now Jim Rome is dragging TD through the coals as we speak.

Thanks again, TD, you are now labled a freaking punk.

Damn!!!


Is that not the logical extension? A dress code in an organization is instituted to emphasize team cohesion and improve its performance, is it not?

As a fan, do you give a rat's ass if Duncan wears shorts and sandals to the arena? I know I don't give a fuck.

[velik_m]

What I'm saying is that people are bitching over a very friviolus rule, which it is, yet I never hear a single word from any player of crucial events taking place in the world.

Like a certain person bitched about a friviolus rule that she has to sit at the back of a bus, not in front?

Anyway... i think an organization like NBA should strive to bring down stereotypes, not conform to them. They should be telling kids that you don't judge person based on their clothes, but based on their actions.

[remingtonbo2001]

Anyway... i think an organization like NBA should strive to bring down stereotypes, not conform to them. They should be telling kids that you don't judge person based on their clothes, but based on their actions.


RIGHT FUCKING ON! I can now leave this discussion in peace. Thank you! :smokin

[Spurminator]

BTW, now Jim Rome is dragging TD through the coals as we speak.


W

G

A

F

?

[Jimcs50]

Is that not the logical extension? A dress code in an organization is instituted to emphasize team cohesion and improve its performance, is it not?

As a fan, do you give a rat's ass if Duncan wears shorts and sandals to the arena? I know I don't give a fuck.

They can not say, it is ok for TD to wear shorts but not AI.

It is a rule for everyone.

That is fair.

Fuck, who in this world gets to do what they want without any restrictions???

These fuckers need to grow the fuck up.


They have been told yes yes yes their whole spoiled lives and when they finally have to be told no, they act like a bunch of kindergardeners who had their icecreme taken away from them.

[Spurminator]

RIGHT FUCKING ON! I can now leave this discussion in peace. Thank you! :smokin

So is this a 180 turn from your previous sentiment? That was fast.

Or maybe you didn't get what he was saying.

[dbreiden83080]

Um, how about fuck ESPN like I've been saying forever?

Stop acting like it's an insult to your job when rich people have opinions about theirs.


Oh ok so you think it is alright for a guy making 15 mil to bitch about a dress code when people who are damn near poor have to deal with it, get a fucking clue man.

[nkdlunch]

W

G

A

F

?

[nkdlunch]

Oh ok so you think it is alright for a guy making 15 mil to bitch about a dress code when people who are damn near poor have to deal with it, get a fucking clue man.

This is ridiculous! :lol :lol

[Spurminator]

I think this is more a case of a bunch of people being told what to do their whole lives getting annoyed when people who have more clout in their line of work show some semblance of opposition toward their employers.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh ok so you think it is alright for a guy making 15 mil to bitch about a dress code when people who are damn near poor have to deal with it, get a fucking clue man.


We need to enforce a dress code on the homeless. Obviously, if their dress changes, their performance in this society will improve.

[Spurminator]

Oh ok so you think it is alright for a guy making 15 mil to bitch about a dress code when people who are damn near poor have to deal with it,

Yep.

I would support a poor person's right to bitch about it as well.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think this is more a case of a bunch of people being told what to do their whole lives getting annoyed when people who have more clout in their line of work show some semblance of opposition toward their employers.

Indeed.

Game over.

[pache100]

It is a rule for everyone.

Now who's missing the point? We are saying it should NOT be a rule for anyone. What could be more fair?

[dbreiden83080]

Yep.

I would support a poor person's right to bitch about it as well.

Hey free country, freedom of speech is all good, as long as these athletes know that the overwhelming opninion is they sound like a bunch of spoiled rich jackasses complaining about something as dumb as a dress code. These guys act like it is their right to play in the NBA, it is a privilege not a right and their are rules that come with privilege's.

[Spurminator]

Let me be perfectly clear where I stand here...

I have no problem with dress codes in an office setting, provided they are not racially motivated.

I have no problem with a sports TEAM establishing a dress code, because that is usually about team unity and not other factors.

I have no problem with employers setting rules in the workplace meant to help their business, and I have no problem with employees being fired or fined for refusing to follow those rules. Again, provided those rules are not racially/sexually motivated.

I believe none of this should be a legal issue.


My problem with the NBA's dress code is not that I feel the players' rights are being violated. I support their right to speak out, even though some of them may be against the rule for only personal reasons.

My problem with the NBA's dress code is that it is a transparent attempt to filter out certain fashions that are perceived to be threatening by bigots, under the vague disguise of "professionalism." The message is that the NBA will attempt to clean up its act by having its players dress "nicer". Which translates to "casual dress = bad."

What it says to these kids is that in order to be a good person, you need to buy some khakis and a polo.

http://www.youthforhumanrights.org/kids/video/videoshoot-imgs/015-Thug-wont-let-Main-Kid-play.jpg

[pache100]

These guys act like it is their right to play in the NBA, it is a privilege not a right and their are rules that come with privilege's.

Actually, they play because they have talent, neither right nor privelege have anything to do with it. And there have never been rules about dress in the NBA (although some teams have historically had rules).

IMO


My problem with the NBA's dress code is that it is a transparent attempt to filter out certain fashions that are perceived to be threatening by bigots, under the vague disguise of "professionalism." The message is that the NBA will attempt to clean up its act by having its players dress "nicer". Which translates to "casual dress = bad."

What it says to these kids is that in order to be a good person, you need to buy some khakis and a polo.




Well said, Spurminator! That's exactly what it says to kids. It also says to them that if you cannot afford to buy khakis and a polo, you are nothing but scum and we don't respect you.

[Gatita]

Good Lord. Everyone is reading way more into it then they should be. It has nothing to do with us, poor people, or racism.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Hey free country, freedom of speech is all good, as long as these athletes know that the overwhelming opninion is they sound like a bunch of spoiled rich jackasses complaining about something as dumb as a dress code.

I think the fact that this argument has gone on for more than 20 pages shows that there is no "overwhelming opinion" on the matter.

The media may be overwhelmingly critical of the players but they rarely speak for the entire fan base on matters of controversy. Really, when was the last time ESPN didn't want to dismiss some athlete's unhappiness as immaturity or petulence?

[Marcus Bryant]

Good Lord. Everyone is reading way more into it then they should be. It has nothing to do with us, poor people, or racism.


Absolutely. It's just the NBA ruling out certain forms of dress that are popular among young African-Americans on its predominately African-American players due to the concerns raised by a few corporate sponsors, at a time when no other major US professional sport league has a dress code policy.

That's all.

[dbreiden83080]

[QUOTE=pache100]Actually, they play because they have talent, neither right nor privelege have anything to do with it. And there have never been rules about dress in the NBA (although some teams have historically had rules).

IMO

So because there have never been dress code rules that means that there never should be. Things change in life all the time you have to adjust to it regardless of the reasons why. I would think anyone making their kind of money should feel pretty damn privileged, without the NBA they would not be who they are that is what i meant by privilege.

[Jimcs50]

So, you do not think an employer can dictate the dress and behavior of their employees????

If my business was in steady decline, and I noticed that the attire of my employees was not professional, it might behoove me to try to change their dress and see if that might help.

Is that so hard to understand?

[Spurminator]

Gatita, please explain the ESPN poll I posted earlier.


From ESPN SportsNation's poll....

4) Are you in favor of the dress code implemented by the NBA for its players?
59.0% Yes
41.0% No

10) Should the NFL, MLB and NHL use similar dress codes for their players?
54.5% No
45.5% Yes


I'm not calling you a racist... I just don't see how anyone can suggest race is not involved here.

[Gatita]

Absolutely. It's just the NBA ruling out certain forms of dress that are popular among young African-Americans on its predominately African-American players due to the concerns raised by a few corporate sponsors, at a time when no other major US professional sport league has a dress code policy.

That's all.

You gotta be kidding me! All teenyboppers are dressing like that nowadays. It isn't specific to only ONE race. :lol

[Mixability]

could they ammend the dress code to include banning Craig Sager's suits?!?! :lol

[Spurminator]

All teenyboppers are dressing like that nowadays.

How many of those teenyboppers play in the NBA?

[nkdlunch]

So, you do not think an employer can dictate the dress and behavior of their employees????

If my business was in steady decline, and I noticed that the attire of my employees was not professional, it might behoove me to try to change their dress and see if that might help.

Is that so hard to understand?


Yes Jim, the NBA is declining because of what these players are wearing nowadays :rolleyes :rolleyes

[Gatita]

Gatita, please explain the ESPN poll I posted earlier.



I'm not calling you a racist... I just don't see how anyone can suggest race is not involved here.

Those STATS are too close for me to firmly state anything.

[Jimcs50]

could they ammend the dress code to include banning Craig Sager's suits?!?! :lol

The problem is, Sager's suits look more professional than what a lot of the players are wearing to games.

:)

[pache100]

So because there have never been dress code rules that means that there never should be. Things change in life all the time you have to adjust to it regardless of the reasons why. I would think anyone making their kind of money should feel pretty damn privileged, without the NBA they would not be who they are that is what i meant by privilege.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. My remark was in response to this quote from your post: "their are rules that come with privilege's." The fact is there have never BEEN rules. I have no objection to rules if there are good reasons for them and they make sense. The only reason for these new rules is prejudice. By a few. They are the ones that need to get over themselves. How much money someone makes is totally irrelevant. They still have the right to disagree, and they still have the right to express their opinions of stupid rules, no matter how rich they are nor how much money they make.

[Gatita]

How many of those teenyboppers play in the NBA?

Teenyboppers means teenagers...children. :lol And the answer is none.

[Spurminator]

13.5% of the people surveyed believe the NBA should have a dress code, but not the other leagues.

Why would this be?

[Spurminator]

Teenyboppers means teenagers...children. And the answer is none.

Right. The NBA Dress Code isn't targeting them. It is, however, sending a message to them.

Don't Dress "Black."

[Jimcs50]

Yes Jim, the NBA is declining because of what these players are wearing nowadays :rolleyes :rolleyes

It is not what they are wearing, it is precisley because there are a bunch of spoiled punks in the league for the most part, and all this whining and pulling out the race card is an example of it.

Dressing and acting like profesionals can help their image, an image that the NBA is trying to improve, since MJ left.

Is that so hard to understand????

[Gatita]

Maybe those individuals polled don't GAF about other sports aside from basketball.

If you loved and cared about only one sport, why would you give a shit about what is going on or how things are handled in other sports.

I wouldn't.

[Spurminator]

It's a yes or no question, I don't see why one's fandom to a sport would have any bearing on how they answer the question "Should this league implement a dress code?"

It's just as easy to click Yes as it is No. I don't buy that "No" is the default answer for "I Don't GAF."

[dbreiden83080]

the second poll question is very close and it is not about race. The NBA players much more than any other sport dress very unprofessional, you do not see it as much in the nfl or mlb that is a fact. The bottom line is when corporate sponsors are complaining about the overall appearance of the players that affects business and stern did what he had to do to keep those sponsors happy.

[Gatita]

Right. The NBA Dress Code isn't targeting them. It is, however, sending a message to them.

Don't Dress "Black."


Who says its a black thing?! Cholos have been wearing wifebeaters, baggy pants, and gold around there necks for decades!!! :lol

[Gatita]

It's a yes or no question, I don't see why one's fandom to a sport would have any bearing on how they answer the question "Should this league implement a dress code?"

It's just as easy to click Yes as it is No. I don't buy that "No" is the default answer for "I Don't GAF."

That's what you BELIEVE. You think the average american is going to sit there at there computer contemplating this shit?! Gimme a break! I know people have better things to do and worry about.

[Spurminator]

There is precisely one "cholo" in the NBA. Assuming he hasn't retired from injury.

[SpursWoman]

Good Lord. Everyone is reading way more into it then they should be. It has nothing to do with us, poor people, or racism.


Sorry, if someone of color doesn't agree with or like something...the motive behind it is automatically racist. There is absolutely, positively no other acceptable explaination.

I love my job and I make really good money, if they told me that I had to start wearing stockings and skirts starting tomorrow, I'd wear stockings and skirts starting tomorrow. It'd be inconvenient and I wouldn't really like it, but IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

You'd think they were asking them to hand over their manhood or something by the way some have been responding. :fro

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

And the owners sign the checks. Now STFU, get dressed and and move on.



huh?

Farfetched analogy if I ever saw one.

The three of you just don't get it, right?

What about if the league suddenly says that an acceptable dress code does not include long hair and a four days beard? Ginobili, Nocioni, Oberto and Scola (in the future) would obviously complain, the rule would look directed towards them, but I guess we don't care, since it's aimed on African American players...


BUT A MILDLY STRICT DRESS CODE IS NOT FUCKING UNFAIR CONSIDERING ALL THE OTHER PERKS THAT COME WITH THAT JOB!! Players need to STFU and realise they are in a position to set a good example. Wearing a suit never killed anyone!

Midly? Not Unfair? By whose standards? Midly if you are the average middle-class white guy. Again, if the person makes a lot of money because he plays basketball, he shouldn't be forced to wear what is said by other people to set a good example. What good example? If you believe a suit is a good example and it will make people more professional and prevent thuggish behaviour, you're far away from reality. Why does people answer that the dress code is needed in the NBA and not in other leagues? How that isn't racist? Why isn't anyone screaming for a dress code in the NHL?


I wear a suit to work every day for crying out loud! Why should they be excempt from following a dress code implemented by their employers when most normal people aren't.

I don't, I own my own business because of that, I don't like being told by idiots (usually who works as a manager or CEO is a cunt, but that's another issue). Personally, I couldn't care less if I'm making business with someone dressed as Dracula or Krusty The Clown, you can't judge how people is or how they work based on a fucking suit. If they want to make examples, they should start by themselves, Stern and the owners. Why examples must be made of players? Is it so negative to wear hip-hop clothing? Why is it positive to wear a suit? Will I suddenly be transformed into a Nobel Prize winner if I put a tie on my neck?


P.S You know what happens if you complain about wearing a suit on any other line of work that requires it. YOU GET CANNED! Maybe that should happen to some of these guys, it would help their ego back down to a healthy level. Right now, they're just being pampered little girls.

I do know, and that's why I'll never work for dorks who believe that a suit makes you a more professional and better person. The players egos you said? What about Stern's ego? Who the fuck is him to say what is acceptable to wear? Shall we all put our heads down and accept what that enlightened human being tells us to do? For a start, Stern does not play 82 games a season, yet, he makes more money than many of the players in the league. I'm tired of people critizing the players making money, they are the reason why the NBA is such a damn good league. Players+Fans+Coaches+Refs=NBA....the owners do nothing but get their profits.

[nkdlunch]

There is precisely one "cholo" in the NBA. Assuming he hasn't retired from injury.

Manu, Arroyo, there's many cholos in the nba

[Gatita]

Sorry, if someone of color doesn't agree with or like something...the motive behind it is automatically racist. There is absolutely, positively no other acceptable explaination.

I love my job and I make really good money, if they told me that I had to start wearing stockings and skirts starting tomorrow, I'd wear stockings and skirts starting tomorrow. It'd be inconvenient and I wouldn't really like it, but IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

You'd think they were asking them to hand over their manhood or something by the way some have been responding. :fro

:tu

Hey, business is business. End of story.

[Spurminator]

That's what you BELIEVE. You think the average american is going to sit there at there computer contemplating this shit?! Gimme a break! I think and now people have better things to do and worry about.

If they were on the ESPN NBA Homepage and clicked a Poll on the Dress Code, I'm assuming they give a shit.

[Spurminator]

Manu, Arroyo, there's many cholos in the nba

Guess it depends on the definition of "Cholo".

In any case, MLB is half "Cholos."

[SpursWoman]

Who says its a black thing?! Cholos have been wearing wifebeaters, baggy pants, and gold around there necks for decades!!! :lol

:lol

[Gatita]

If they were on the ESPN NBA Homepage and clicked a Poll on the Dress Code, I'm assuming they give a shit.

Hey those polls pop up all the time. The net for many is something to do when your bored. Like me. :lol

And no, I don't give a shit! :lmao

[Spurminator]

Sorry, if someone of color doesn't agree with or like something...the motive behind it is automatically racist. There is absolutely, positively no other acceptable explaination.

But it sometimes is.

Look, I think the Race Card is overplayed too, but there's simply too much evidence of it here, and just because we're tired of the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons assigning racism to every issue involving a black person doesn't mean we should assume there are not still signs of racism and social prejudice in our culture.

[Spurminator]

And no, I don't give a shit!

Then get off my soapbox and stop wasting my time. ;)

[Gatita]

Then get off my soapbox and stop wasting my time. ;)

Spurminator, no mames! :lol

[PM5K]

I hate Tim Duncan....

[easjer]

The bottom line for me is that this is a stupid and transparent attempt by some corporate folks and the NBA to pretend that if they dressed more nicely and neatly that they are all good people.

And they aren't and that is stupid. If they want the league to have a different imgae, they need to address the actual problems creating that bad image instead of telling Tim Duncan to tuck in his shirt.

If they'd bothered to market David Robinson or Tim Duncan instead of Allen Iverson or Kobe Bryant the league image might not be so bad. But it was way more *interesting* to talk about the Shaq/Kobe fights than David Robinson's donations to the Carver Academy. . .

But don't for a second believe that I'm bittercakes about lack of national interest in the Spurs. The point is that the league could deal with the few troublemakers that are out there ruining their image and highlight the work that Bruce Bowen does or the clinics that Antonio Daniels and Devin Brown hold for kids. There are lots of people out there quietly going above and beyond their jobs in the community and playing quietly and professionally, just as the attire that most of the players wear is just fine, but instead of dealing the problems, the league makes absurd rules about it.

It's plain stupid.

[dbreiden83080]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. My remark was in response to this quote from your post: "their are rules that come with privilege's." The fact is there have never BEEN rules. I have no objection to rules if there are good reasons for them and they make sense. The only reason for these new rules is prejudice. By a few. They are the ones that need to get over themselves. How much money someone makes is totally irrelevant. They still have the right to disagree, and they still have the right to express their opinions of stupid rules, no matter how rich they are nor how much money they make.


As i said before rules change, that is a part of life you have to deal with it. It amazes me that you are anyone else could not feel that money is an issue here. I am not saying that it defines you as a person or you don't have the right to speak out because you are rich. What i am saying is you have less of a right to complain about things like this than people who are going through actual hardships and are really struggling in life.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I hate Tim Duncan....

Well, he thinks you're retarded. :spin

[ShoogarBear]

It is not what they are wearing, it is precisley because there are a bunch of spoiled punks in the league for the most part, and all this whining and pulling out the race card is an example of it.

Dressing and acting like profesionals can help their image, an image that the NBA is trying to improve, since MJ left.

Is that so hard to understand????

So there are no spoiled punks in MLB, or the NFL, or the NHL??

Maybe the NBA shoud look at just what magical things those other leagues have that they don't seem to have such a "spoiled punk" problem, hmmm?

[Spurminator]

Spoiled is in the eye of the beholder.

[Gatita]

Guess it depends on the definition of "Cholo".

In any case, MLB is half "Cholos."

Wouldn't that be the same as:

it depends on the definition of "Black"



:rolleyes

[Spurminator]

I was talking about nationality, not style.

[easjer]

As i said before rules change, that is a part of life you have to deal with it. It amazes me that you are anyone else could not feel that money is an issue here. I am not saying that it defines you as a person or you don't have the right to speak out because you are rich. What i am saying is you have less of a right to complain about things like this than people who are going through actual hardships and are really struggling in life.

:rolleyes


And you are the one who gets to decide what is a hardship and what isn't, right? Rich people can have freedom to express themselves or complain, but not as much freedom to express themselves or complain as poor people huh? Right then. I guess I can complain more than Tim Duncan, and more than someone making 6 figures, but less than my officemates, because they make less money. Thanks for the formula.

And as for rules changes - there are actually guidelines in place to protect employees from detrimental or unfair rules changes. . . but of course that wouldn't apply here, because they are rich, I assume.

No, wearing a sports coat isn't a big deal. But that's not what I'm arguing anyway. And frankly I don't see where money factors in this equation at all, except for you saying that rich people don't enjoy the same basic rights as non-rich people. . .

[ShoogarBear]

What about if the league suddenly says that an acceptable dress code does not include long hair and a four days beard?

I would love to see Stern announce a rule saying you couldn't have hair touching your collar. A bunch of people in here who don't see a problem would suddenly have a shitfit.

[SpursWoman]

And as for rules changes - there are actually guidelines in place to protect employees from detrimental or unfair rules changes. . . but of course that wouldn't apply here, because they are rich, I assume.

I really don't GAF about their dress code or if they like it our not ... I just think it's funny that Camby needs more money to buy a jacket.

At least the league brass is being consistant. If they are going to put 3/4 naked girls on the floor to entertain all the men because that shit sells, then they can put the men in a suit for the woman....'cuz I'd buy anything from a man all dressed up and looking sharp. :eyebrows :rolleyes :lol

[pache100]

I am not saying that it defines you as a person or you don't have the right to speak out because you are rich.


What i am saying is you have less of a right to complain about things like this than people who are going through actual hardships and are really struggling in life.

:lol :spin :blah :drunk :rolleyes :baby

Unbelievable.

Clue: We're not talking about hardships (and I don't know many NBA players who have not had hardships in their lives)...we are talking about the ridiculously unreasonable NBA dress code. You are mixing apples and oranges.

[easjer]

I really don't GAF about their dress code or if they like it our not ... I just think it's funny that Camby needs more money to buy a jacket.

At least the league brass is being consistant. If they are going to put 3/4 naked girls on the floor to entertain all the men because that shit sells, then they can put the men in a suit for the woman....'cuz I'd buy anything from a man all dressed up and looking sharp. :eyebrows :rolleyes :lol


:lol

[Marklar MM]

Anyone watch the skit about Camby on Best Damn. Hehe. They show his closet...appears to be two shelves high, with about 4 feet between shelves, and its a walk in closet, full of clothes. They also mention he makes 9 million a year. For only $5000 a day, you can sponsor him.

[Clutch20]

Stern's dress code has nothing to do with the game of basketball. Let's clarify this issue and analyze it for what it truly stands for. On one hand your boys have all they need to be competive in the league, your team is focused on the game and making a great effort to win. On the other hand, fans are either at the game or at home and they're mostly focused on the game. Whothehell is looking to see what is wearing what?
How do you dress up when you're traveling to and arriving at your destination? Would you take off your comfies to change to formal evening wear? Player's live in an unreal world as it is, how much more surrealistic do you want to make it by making them dress in suits?

How well would suits protect our Northern teams from those icy blasts of winter weather?

How many rings of sweat stains can be produced on those dress shirts, huh?

Don't get me wrong, I play in an entertainment group and this weekend and for many other engagements we wear tuxes. Alot. Often. But please don't make my heroes dress like me. Playing music is not at all like playing basketball.

And anyways, just think how silly and out of place it will look!

Really.

[Marcus Bryant]

Stern's plan is working perfectly. NBA players are responding like you would expect wealthy young black men to do.

[dbreiden83080]

:lol :spin :blah :drunk :rolleyes :baby

Unbelievable.

Clue: We're not talking about hardships (and I don't know many NBA players who have not had hardships in their lives)...we are talking about the ridiculously unreasonable NBA dress code. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Jesus Christ you talk like you feel sorry for these guys that they are being told to put on a decent pair of pants for god's sake. Would you blow off a big job interview because you deemed having to wear a suit as ridiculous and unwarranted.

[SpursWoman]

Would you blow off a big job interview because you deemed having to wear a suit as ridiculous and unwarranted.


Or show up in a throwback and his pants around the bottom of his ass and wonder why he never got called back.

:fro

[Marcus Bryant]

Probably not the best analogy, but this is like complaining about what clothes a porn star has on in the first minute of the film. Who pays attention to that?

[Spurminator]

Or show up in a throwback and his pants around the bottom of his ass and wonder why he never got called back.

I'll bet if a team was trying to woo LeBron James during Free Agency and he showed up wearing a throwback jersey and sneakers, they wouldn't blink.

[cheguevara]

Would you blow off a big job interview because you deemed having to wear a suit as ridiculous and unwarranted.

If you were a CEO would you blow off a job candidate that is a genius and surely will make your company millions, except, he's wearing jeans and sneakers?

[ShoogarBear]

If you were a CEO would you blow off a job candidate that is a genius and surely will make your company millions, except, he's wearing jeans and sneakers?

Microsoft and Apple would be rinky-dink places nobody ever heard of if things had been managed by the HR gurus of this board.

[scott]

The only "racism" is the racism I see by the people willing to make the logical jump that the clothing being banned is "black" clothing.

[jochhejaam]

Basically they're trying to cover up the "thugness" factor brought onto the League by the Incident in Detroit.

Yep, that's what premeditated all of this.

Tim would rather be in the locker room than in sport coat and dress jeans with his team on the bench?
Put on a casual sport and a pair of dress jeans, what's the big deal? I assume he can wear boots if he wants?

I don't have a problem with the NBA trying clean up their image. If you want to dress up like a gang-banger (I know Tim doesn't) that's fine just do it on your own time. They have the entire off-season and off days.

Spoiled little brats! :lol

[mookie2001]

thats the stupid part joche
what does a gangbanger dress like?

[jochhejaam]

Mookie: thats the stupid part joche
what does a gangbanger dress like?I work around them in what used to be known as the "projects" no problems.


Pick one mook

http://espn.go.com/media/nba/2001/0105/photo/a_mjordan_i.jpg
http://philadelphia.comcastsportsnet.com/images/content/sixers/012605-iverson.jpg

One is the image the NBA wants and the other is the image it doesn't want. Racist? Not at all. Professional, that's the image.

[Spurminator]

The only "racism" is the racism I see by the people willing to make the logical jump that the clothing being banned is "black" clothing.

What other logical jump could possibly be made?

Do you really think the Brent Barrys and Steve Nashes of the league are the ones who caused this attempt to "clean up" the league?

[scott]

What other logical jump could possibly be made?

Do you really think the Brent Barrys and Steve Nashes of the league are the ones who caused this attempt to "clean up" the league?

The clothes at the heart of the ban aren't so because they are worn by black players... it's because they simply look tacky and unprofessional. The difference between correlation and causation applies here. If Steve Nash and Brent Barry decided to dress like thugs, it wouldn't make David Stern want to reconcider the ban.

[ShoogarBear]

If Steve Nash and Brent Barry decided to dress like thugs, it wouldn't make David Stern want to reconcider the ban.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

So . . . Steve Nash doesn't dress like a thug?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

So . . . what is your definition of a "thug"?

[mookie2001]

yeah joche
iverson looks like a thug
in that

longsleeve white shirt...

mafioso wear suits

[dbreiden83080]

If you were a CEO would you blow off a job candidate that is a genius and surely will make your company millions, except, he's wearing jeans and sneakers?

Like it or not 9 companies out 10 would not even let you in the building for an interview in anything but a suit and tie, genius or not appearances are a big issue in the corporate world. I'm not saying it defines who you are but it is expected.

[remingtonbo2001]

Where the hell were you guys when I was getting my ASS pounded by proclaiming that this wasn't an issue of race. Yeah, it's rediculous. But the dress code only scratches the surface. In effect, it is as Kori said (I think) "a band aid". I agree with the Jordan/Iverson comparision. In my opinion, most urban appearal, NOT ALL, does look tacky. At least on me. Haha. But, I'm sure others would say I dress tacky. I wear my jeans below my hips with a studded belt. I prefer t-shirts, will go with the occasional polo. Wear Etnies Shoes. Lip pierced. Hmmm....BUT, I have NEVER, not once, shown up to an interview in my causual tire. At the least, I will wear a nice pair of slacks, dress shirt, and tie. I would like to know who in here has gone to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt AND GOT THE JOB. I want to know cause I would like to apply there. Point is this isn't about race, it's a policy to improve the image of the NBA. Whether it will be sucessful or not is yet to determined. I for one, would not mind if the NBA did clean up the image a little. Seriously, if I saw someone dressed similar to how I dress casually during an important press conference, I would be a little disapointed. I think this policy is, in a large part, but not the majority of reason, to appeal to a larger audience. First impressions are very important in our society. Yes? Do we agree on this? This policy is not stating that "urban wear" is the root of all evil. They just want their players to present themselves in a fashionable manner in which they approve of. Plain and simple. I don't understand why some can't take things for the way they are. I'm not saying everything, but somethings. It seems that some believe everyone is out to screw them. The popular term being "TRUST NO ONE". Again, I am not grouping a majority, I am saying SOME. I am interested though to see how effective this policy is.

[smeagol]

Don't people know that in the US Congress, Congressmen/women dress with baggy pants, t-shirts, flip-flops and chains. Bush does it all the time too, especially when he is giving a press conference, or when he is signing a Bill.

Clerks at banks usually use ragged shirts; so do people at award shows. Not to mention Kobe when he was on trial. He had the the most untidy, unprofessional clothes I've ever seen (dress codes at work . . . nahh . . . but when prison is a possibility . . . you betchah!).

Dress codes are stupid. Next time I'm invited to a black tie wedding I'll wear nothing but a thong, and if I ever win the Nobel peace prize (yes, there is a remote possibility!), I'll accept the award in my underpants.

And to the next funeral, I'll show my respects in a nice "Che Guevara" shirt, camouflage pants and a red berret (the "Comandante Chavez" look).

Yeah, dress codes are stupid. Rules don't apply to rebels; cool guys don't dress in a suit.

:rolleyes

[Spurminator]

The clothes at the heart of the ban aren't so because they are worn by black players... it's because they simply look tacky and unprofessional.

I believe "tacky and unprofessional" are subjective. And I find that urban-styled clothing tends to register higher on the "tacky and unprofessional" scale with a lot of people than other styles of casual clothing.

Who defines tacky and why do they care so much?

[Spurminator]

I would like to know who in here has gone to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt AND GOT THE JOB. I want to know cause I would like to apply there.

Of course you would.

Yet you criticise NBA players for wanting (basically) the same thing.

[Spurminator]

Smeagol believes that if most people live by a certain standard, then everybody should.

[SpursWoman]

How does this not perpetuate the image that the NBA is full of gangsta drug using, violent thugs....when some of them go out of their way to talk like one, dress like one, and act like one?

http://philadelphia.comcastsportsnet.com/images/content/sixers/012605-iverson.jpg


It's like that one bad kid that made the whole class miss recess. :spin























And I really like Iverson, btw. :drunk

[smeagol]

Smeagol believes that if most people live by a certain standard, then everybody should.
Yes Spurm, I believe in standards.

Correct and incorrect, acceptable and unacceptable, right and wrong (and the shades in between).

[toosmallshoes]

It's funny that one of the most conservative guys in the NBA is also one of the most pissed when it comes to the dress code. Maybe if they'd quit letting High School Kids come into the NBA they wouldn't have to treat everyone in the league like babies.

[Spurminator]

Yes Spurm, I believe in standards.

Correct and incorrect, acceptable and unacceptable, right and wrong (and the shades in between).

I believe in standards too...


...for stuff that matters. Seriously, are you attaching morality to how one dresses?

[Spurminator]

I would like to know who in here has gone to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt AND GOT THE JOB. I want to know cause I would like to apply there.

Is Iverson dressed like a thug, or do some thugs dress like Allen Iverson?

[smeagol]

Seriously, are you attaching morality to how one dresses?
No.

Tidy and untidy.

How's that?

[Spurminator]

Tidy like bathing daily? Clean clothes?

[smeagol]

Preofessional and unprofessional.

I know, you'll ask "What's professional?"

And we will go like this forever.

Bottom line is: abiding by the dress code the NBA is imposing is so simple it is not worth the energy we are spending on the topic.

If people who make $50K per year and work 50 hrs/week complain about it, I would be asking them "What's wrong with you, dude?"

If guys like AI and Timmy complain about it, when they are living in a dream, words cannot explain the state of awe I'm left in.

[ShoogarBear]

Allen Iverson is dressed better than any of the guys in the following pictures, yet I 100% guarantee none of you will say they look like "thugs" . . . Gee I Wonder Why?

Craig Biggio:
http://home.garygreene.com/sunshine/Group.gif

Dirk Nowitzki:
http://bball-is-jazz.net/DNonSax1-2.jpg

Mark Cuban:
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jack_mccallum/03/24/programs/t1_cuban.jpg

Andei Kirilenko:
http://img.sports.tom.com/img/assets/200504/050401075930Andrei-KirilenkoS.jpg

Mark Madsen and Andrei Kirilenko on the following web page:
(BTW, for fun, go to there and pick out which ones are the "thugs").
http://www.angelfire.com/magic2/sportscollection/

[Spurminator]

I know, you'll ask "What's professional?"

And we will go like this forever.

Because you won't answer. No one will. You're all stuck in this mindset that there's some kind of virtue in dressing a certain way. No one seems to want to admit that THEY judge people by how they dress, but so many of you are willing to say, "Well others think that way, so that's how it is." It's a copout, of you ask me. it's cowardice. And it's a vicious cycle.

[ShoogarBear]

How does this not perpetuate the image that the NBA is full of gangsta drug using, violent thugs....when some of them go out of their way to talk like one, dress like one, and act like one?


It perpetuates your images of gansta drug using, violent thugs. The overwhelming number of guys I know who dress like this are not.

Here is my stereotype of a drug using thug:
http://media-cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/rush.jpg

[Spurminator]

:
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jack_mccallum/03/24/programs/t1_cuban.jpg


Jeez, Avery needs to get a smaller jacket... He looks like he looted a Men's Wearhouse. What a slob.

[Marcus Bryant]

Obviously the league is cracking down on players wearing conspicuous jewerly such as large gold chains due to the antics of Shawn Bradley, Evan Eschmeyer and Scott Padgett.

[TDMVPDPOY]

IM struggling to buy my own suite, and these guys who makes one weeks salary = to my 2-3 years salary and they are complaining about being able to afford one and wearing one hahaa

[SpursWoman]

It perpetuates your images of gansta drug using, violent thugs. The overwhelming number of guys I know who dress like this are not.



Yes...it's only what I think. It must be my extreme racist tendencies that invented the word stereotype, which never, ever have any basis in fact.

[Rubberducky]

Jeez, 608 posts in 2 days.

[pache100]

Don't people know that in the US Congress, Congressmen/women dress with baggy pants, t-shirts, flip-flops and chains. Bush does it all the time too, especially when he is giving a press conference, or when he is signing a Bill.

Clerks at banks usually use ragged shirts; so do people at award shows. Not to mention Kobe when he was on trial. He had the the most untidy, unprofessional clothes I've ever seen (dress codes at work . . . nahh . . . but when prison is a possibility . . . you betchah!).

Dress codes are stupid. Next time I'm invited to a black tie wedding I'll wear nothing but a thong, and if I ever win the Nobel peace prize (yes, there is a remote possibility!), I'll accept the award in my underpants.

And to the next funeral, I'll show my respects in a nice "Che Guevara" shirt, camouflage pants and a red berret (the "Comandante Chavez" look).

Yeah, dress codes are stupid. Rules don't apply to rebels; cool guys don't dress in a suit.

:rolleyes

Let me know when one of the Spurs/Pistons/Knicks/Heat/etc. gets elected to Congress or the Presidency...or goes to work as a bank teller or a preacher or judge (wedding reference) or wins a Nobel prize for anything or starts directing funerals. Dress codes in general are not stupid. Dress codes for professional NBA basketball players (all of whom are legal adults) ARE stupid. Some cool guys (some of whome are professional basketball players) choose to wear suits; some cool guys don't choose to.

[Ginofan]

Let me know when one of the Spurs/Pistons/Knicks/Heat/etc. gets elected to Congress or the Presidency...or goes to work as a bank teller or a preacher or judge (wedding reference) or wins a Nobel prize for anything or starts directing funerals. Dress codes in general are not stupid. Dress codes for professional NBA basketball players (all of whom are legal adults) ARE stupid. Some cool guys (some of whome are professional basketball players) choose to wear suits; some cool guys don't choose to.

Not to mention that the players are in the ENTERTAINMENT business...it's not your normal "job" I don't think we can treat it as such.

[pache100]

"I would like to know who in here has gone to an interview in jeans and a t-shirt AND GOT THE JOB."

Ok. You got it...

Me. I work for the federal government (made the 30-year mark this past August - I now have enough time to retire, but do not meet the age requirement). I have been to two different job interviews in jeans and t-shirt and desert boots. I do admit I had on a corduroy jacket for one of the interviews, but that was only because it was December and cold. BTW, I got both of those jobs.

"I want to know cause I would like to apply there."

Knock yourself out. Luckily, the federal government is more concerned about qualifications than whether or not you wear a suit (which is the way it should be in the NBA, IMHO). Good luck.

[pache100]

How does this not perpetuate the image that the NBA is full of gangsta drug using, violent thugs....when some of them go out of their way to talk like one, dress like one, and act like one?

Please explain to me how forcing everyone to dress differently is going to change the way a few talk and act? Again, if you have a problem with a few, deal with the problem few and leave the rest alone.

[ShoogarBear]

Yes...it's only what I think. It must be my extreme racist tendencies that invented the word stereotype, which never, ever have any basis in fact.

Do you really want to go there?

[SpursWoman]

Not to mention that the players are in the ENTERTAINMENT business...it's not your normal "job" I don't think we can treat it as such.

You're right. And it's also an entertainment BUSINESS that is selling a product that has gotten a reputation of being nothing but a bunch of thugs in shorts...and apparently it's turning off the people with the money that support it.

It's still a BUSINESS that depends on paying customers for its existance, and if the reputation of your business is going down the toilet you do what you need to do to fix it or risk becoming insolvent. You cater to your customers if you want their money, not your employees. Is it that extreme? I don't know, I don't do the polling or keep their books. Will a dress code help clean up their image? It seems a little excessive for the majority of players it affects, but I certainly don't think it will hurt it. Are there deeper problems that need to be addressed? Of course, but those would appear to be a lot more deep-seeded and will need more time and are a lot more involved to overcome.

So all of the normal rules of running a business shouldn't apply to overly wealthy men because they have the remarkable talent of shooting a basketball through a hoop? All of the owners should just bow down to the almighty sharp-shooter with great hops? Why not, apparently that's what a lot of them have become used to. Why should they comply to what the owners feel might help their image and appeal to more people and sell more or their product? They're only the ones that made them rich motherfuckers. I didn't hear them demanding blow jobs....just sports coats. BFD.

And we're not talking about MLB, NFL or Right-Wing Radio ... those are completely different circumstances with completely different problems. I thought this was a thread about the NBA dress code.

[SpursWoman]

Do you really want to go there?


If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, looks like a duck, there's no fucking way it can be a duck and to assume so would be judgemental and racist. I totally understand.

[Gatita]

Allen Iverson is dressed better than any of the guys in the following pictures, yet I 100% guarantee none of you will say they look like "thugs" . . . Gee I Wonder Why?

Craig Biggio:
http://home.garygreene.com/sunshine/Group.gif

Dirk Nowitzki:
http://bball-is-jazz.net/DNonSax1-2.jpg

Mark Cuban:
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jack_mccallum/03/24/programs/t1_cuban.jpg

Andei Kirilenko:
http://img.sports.tom.com/img/assets/200504/050401075930Andrei-KirilenkoS.jpg

Mark Madsen and Andrei Kirilenko on the following web page:
(BTW, for fun, go to there and pick out which ones are the "thugs").
http://www.angelfire.com/magic2/sportscollection/

They don't look like thugs, but still look like shit!

[Gatita]

Yes...it's only what I think. It must be my extreme racist tendencies that invented the word stereotype, which never, ever have any basis in fact.

Yeah, stereotypes sprang up outta nowwhere. They aren't based on anything factual. Its all make believe. :rolleyes

:lol

[SpursWoman]

They don't look like thugs, but still look like shit!

Yep. :lol

[Gatita]

You're right. And it's also an entertainment BUSINESS that is selling a product that has gotten a reputation of being nothing but a bunch of thugs in shorts...and apparently it's turning off the people with the money that support it.

It's still a BUSINESS that depends on paying customers for its existance, and if the reputation of your business is going down the toilet you do what you need to do to fix it or risk becoming insolvent. You cater to your customers if you want their money, not your employees. Is it that extreme? I don't know, I don't do the polling or keep their books. Will a dress code help clean up their image? It seems a little excessive for the majority of players it affects, but I certainly don't think it will hurt it. Are there deeper problems that need to be addressed? Of course, but those would appear to be a lot more deep-seeded and will need more time and are a lot more involved to overcome.

So all of the normal rules of running a business shouldn't apply to overly wealthy men because they have the remarkable talent of shooting a basketball through a hoop? All of the owners should just bow down to the almighty sharp-shooter with great hops? Why not, apparently that's what a lot of them have become used to. Why should they comply to what the owners feel might help their image and appeal to more people and sell more or their product? They're only the ones that made them rich motherfuckers. I didn't hear them demanding blow jobs....just sports coats. BFD.

And we're not talking about MLB, NFL or Right-Wing Radio ... those are completely different circumstances with completely different problems. I thought this was a thread about the NBA dress code.

:tu

[Gatita]

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, looks like a duck, there's no fucking way it can be a duck and to assume so would be judgemental and racist. I totally understand.

:lmao


Your on a roll today......

[Ginofan]

You're right. And it's also an entertainment BUSINESS that is selling a product that has gotten a reputation of being nothing but a bunch of thugs in shorts...and apparently it's turning off the people with the money that support it.

It's still a BUSINESS that depends on paying customers for its existance, and if the reputation of your business is going down the toilet you do what you need to do to fix it or risk becoming insolvent. You cater to your customers if you want their money, not your employees. Is it that extreme? I don't know, I don't do the polling or keep their books. Will a dress code help clean up their image? It seems a little excessive for the majority of players it affects, but I certainly don't think it will hurt it. Are there deeper problems that need to be addressed? Of course, but those would appear to be a lot more deep-seeded and will need more time and are a lot more involved to overcome.

So all of the normal rules of running a business shouldn't apply to overly wealthy men because they have the remarkable talent of shooting a basketball through a hoop? All of the owners should just bow down to the almighty sharp-shooter with great hops? Why not, apparently that's what a lot of them have become used to. Why should they comply to what the owners feel might help their image and appeal to more people and sell more or their product? They're only the ones that made them rich motherfuckers. I didn't hear them demanding blow jobs....just sports coats. BFD.

And we're not talking about MLB, NFL or Right-Wing Radio ... those are completely different circumstances with completely different problems. I thought this was a thread about the NBA dress code.

If the players weren't so talented, the owners wouldn't have a product to sell. So they should just follow the code with no input whatsoever? Just like you say about the owners just bowing down, the players should do that? I think it should be voted on betwen the league and the players association...that way even it still is implemented at least the players had a say in things. The players are the ones that are going to have to dress differently, not the owners.

Also does anyone realize the amount of sales that are gained from the so-called thugs wearing jerseys, caps, etc when they aren't playing? People WANT to look like them, they go out and buy what the stars wear. Wouldn't that put a dent in the league's pocketbook when that advertising is taken away?

[Spurminator]

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, looks like a duck, there's no fucking way it can be a duck and to assume so would be judgemental and racist. I totally understand.

I just don't even know how to answer that.

I know you're a good person and you're not a racist, but I just don't see how you can believe that that's not a prejudiced attitude.

We're talking about baggy clothes and caps here.

[ShoogarBear]

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck, looks like a duck, there's no fucking way it can be a duck and to assume so would be judgemental and racist. I totally understand.

No, you clearly don't understand.

Let's just look at the "gangsta drug using" comment and look at the "basis in fact" that you hang your hat on:

From Dozier and Barnes, "Ethnicity, drug user status and academic performance" in Adolescence, 1997. Link (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n128_v32/ai_20608732)


Bachman, Wallace, Kurth, Johnston, and O'Malley (1991) examined drug use among the five major ethnic groups: Native Americans, whites, Hispanics, blacks, and Asian Americans. These authors presented data from nationally representative surveys contrasting the prevalence rates of illicit and licit drug use. Surveys conducted with high school seniors from 1976 to 1989 indicated the following patterns: Native Americans were the highest users of licit and illicit drugs, with the exception of cocaine. Whites were next highest. Asian Americans were lowest, while blacks were next lowest, with the exception of marijuana, with black males exhibiting the highest use. Hispanics were the intermediate group, with the exception of high cocaine use by males. The differences between groups were not attributable to background factors such as parents' education, rural/urban distinctions, family composition, and region.

Prendergast, Austin, Maton, and Baker (1989) studied the drug use patterns and problems of black and white adults and children. Among adolescents, alcohol and drug use were lower for blacks than whites. Consistent with the findings of Bachman et al. (1991), these authors indicated that national and school-based surveys have consistently shown that black youths have higher rates of abstinence from drinking, blacks who do use alcohol drink less and have lower levels of heavy drinking than do whites (black youths also have a lower percentage of light and heavy drinkers), and young blacks exhibit fewer social problems resulting from drinking than do white youths. In addition, black youths demonstrate a lower rate of drug use than do young whites and youths from other ethnic groups.

Skager and Frith (1989), in a report to the Attorney General of California based on the 1987-1988 California Substance Abuse Survey, attempted to identify high-risk substance users in Grades 9 and 11. These authors divided students into three subgroups based on frequency of use within the most recent six-month period: high-risk users, conventional users, and abstainers. High-risk use was defined as use of cocaine in any form (e.g., crack), use of marijuana weekly or on a more frequent basis, or polydrug use three or more times. Abstainers were those who had not used drugs or alcohol within the previous six months. Conventional users were those who used alcohol or marijuana occasionally, or substances other than cocaine, but no more than once in the previous six months. Their findings indicated that whites and Hispanics were more likely than blacks to be high-risk and conventional users, while blacks exhibited higher rates of abstinence relative to whites and Hispanics.

Surveys of high school students have produced consistent findings. Blacks and Asians have consistently reported lower drug use than have whites. Although cocaine use by Mexican-American youths is slightly higher than that by whites, and alcohol use slightly lower, these two groups have reported about the same drug use. Native Americans, on the other hand, have reported higher drug use relative to whites (Oetting & Beauvais, 1990; Bachman et al., 1991). Controlling for background variables alone has not resulted in significant differences between racial/ethnic groups. However, after controlling for background variables, several lifestyle factors have been strongly related to drug use. These include educational values and behaviors, religious commitment, and time spent in peer-oriented activities (Wallace & Bachman, 1991).


More recently, from a 2002 article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer Link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/98767_drugs06.shtml).


Only Native Americans use alcohol, marijuana or hard drugs at rates higher than whites in Washington, according to a 2002 study by the state Department of Social and Health Services. Asked if they had ever used hard drugs, for instance, about 25 percent of whites answer affirmatively, compared with 39 percent for Native Americans, 18 percent for blacks and Hispanics and 8.5 percent for those of Asian ancestry.

By all means, continue to talk about "walking like a duck" if you feel you have to. Just be aware your perceptions are a matter of convenience for you and have nothing to do with "basis in fact".

[SpursWoman]

I know you're a good person and you're not a racist, but I just don't see how you can believe that that's not a prejudiced attitude.

Of course I'm not a racist.

But, say a white woman is walking down a street in a shady part of town late at night heavily made up, scantily dressed with ridiculously high heels saying something to men passing by that you can't quite hear. What would your first assumption be? That she was leaving a Halloween party (even though it's only March) or that she was a prostitute?

Maybe she just likes dressing up like that and enjoys talking to strange men late at night. How does that make me prejudice to assume someone exhibiting a certain type of behavior associated with a very particular style of dress is engaging in what those two things together are notorious for? If she doesn't want to be mistaken for a hooker, she shouldn't dress or engage in activities that make hookers hookers...because it's going to happen. If it makes me prejudiced to think that she's a hooker because she's doing what hookers do, then I guess I'm prejudiced.

Although, someone did make a good point .... are SOME NBA players dressing up like gansters, or are gangsters dressing up like NBA players?

[Spurminator]

What would your first assumption be?

Well, you've added several variables that don't apply to the NBA players... Particularly the "shady part of town" description. If you saw that same woman in a club district, would you still assume she was a hooker? Or would you simply assume that she was going from club to club like every other scantily-clad woman in the area?

Fact is, you go to that part of town, and it's possible that every male you see will be dressed in a way that looks similar to Iverson. But a very small percentage of them are actually criminals. And it's possible that the same percentage of those men are criminals as the percentage of white collar businessmen are criminals in their own right, though they may be guilty of less "seedy" crimes.


Although, someone did make a good point .... are SOME NBA players dressing up like gansters, or are gangsters dressing up like NBA players?

I say they're all dressing. Criminals and non-criminals do a lot of similar things. They eat some of the same foods, they watch some of the same TV shows, they fuck in the same positions.... they wear the same clothes.

[ShoogarBear]

Of course I'm not a racist.

But, say a white woman is walking down a street in a shady part of town late at night heavily made up, scantily dressed with ridiculously high heels saying something to men passing by that you can't quite hear. What would your first assumption be? That she was leaving a Halloween party (even though it's only March) or that she was a prostitute?


That's not the analogy to what you're doing at all.

What you're doing in being a 85 year-old woman at the mall looking at a girl dressed in a midriff baring shirt and shorts and sandals and saying "that must be a hooker, no respectable woman dresses that way . . . look! there's another one! and ANOTHER! They're everywhere!!!"

[SpursWoman]

....and please don't make the assumption that I agree with or fall for stereotypes, because I don't (even though I might sound like the duck :spin). I wouldn't automatically think the hooker was a bad person, just doing what she feels like she needs to do...or just likes being one....whatever. And there are lots of hookers (call girls) that don't dress that way, either.

If I saw someone in a blue workshirt with a name-tag patch and covered in motor oil walking out of the Auto Zone I'd probably assume they were some kind of mechanic, too. But other than my own personal curiosity, it's really none of my business.


I do understand, though, how easy it is to make the association.

[SpursWoman]

That's not the analogy to what you're doing at all.

What you're doing in being a 85 year-old woman at the mall looking at a girl dressed in a midriff baring shirt and shorts and sandals and saying "that must be a hooker, no respectable woman dresses that way . . . look! there's another one! and ANOTHER! They're everywhere!!!"


:lol


Apparently there are a lot of 85 year old women that buy luxury boxes at NBA games. Should league officials just tell them to quit being old fuddy-duddies or to fuck off? Of course they won't, because they want their money.

:fro

[cheguevara]

Haha, this reminds me of the Chappelle monologue. "you might not be a whore, but you're wearing a whore's uniform!"

[Spurminator]

Apparently there are a lot of 85 year old women that buy luxury boxes at NBA games. Should league officials just tell them to quit being old fuddy-duddies or to fuck off?

In this case, given the social (mis)perceptions it reinforces, I believe the answer is Absolutely.

[ShoogarBear]

Apparently there are a lot of 85 year old women that buy luxury boxes at NBA games. Should league officials just tell them to quit being old fuddy-duddies or to fuck off? Of course they won't, because they want their money.

First off, saying corporations think they're drug-using thugs because of the way they dress is a different question than saying YOU think they're drug-using thugs because of the way they dress.

Second, I would like to ask the corporations why they don't seem to be concerned about how MLB and NFL players dress?

[SpursWoman]

First off, saying corporations think they're drug-using thugs because of the way they dress is a different question than saying YOU think they're drug-using thugs because of the way they dress.

Why is it different? A stereotype is a stereotype, corporations aren't run by machines, they are usually run by (to perpetuate another stereotype ;) ) old white conservative men who don't get it....the same ones that didn't "get" hippies.

[Marcus Bryant]

So the NBA and some of its sponsors are responding to the stereotype that they believe middle-aged, middle-class white folk have for young black men.

[SpursWoman]

It appears that way to me.

[pache100]

So the NBA and some of its sponsors are responding to the stereotype that they believe middle-aged, middle-class white folk have for young black men.

Speaking as one of the group (middle-aged, middle-class white folk), that is even more reason to discard the dress code as bullshit. People (all people) need to get over their misconceptions, prejudices, and discriminatory treatment of groups...and start evaluating (and assigning adjectives) to INDIVIDUALS, and then based only on personal, face-to-face interactive experience.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Do you people think that this thread could be read by someone that works for the NBA's public relationships or some other department like that? I've been visiting several basketball forums and this is probably the thread with the most answers and analysis. I know it's the small market Spurs, but I believe someone from the NBA must be lurking around checking fans reactions, not that Stern gives a damn about it.

[Vashner]

LOL Rush Limbaugh mentioned Duncan said "it's a load of crap" hhaa..

[jochhejaam]

I just don't even know how to answer that.


We're talking about baggy clothes and caps here.


Clothes and a cap are signature attire for the KKK too, is that okay, after all it just talking about baggy clothes and a cap...?


originally posted by spurminator: Is Iverson dressed like a thug, or do some thugs dress like Allen Iverson?

That's the problem, you can't differentiate and that's what the NBA is trying to get away from.

[scott]

I believe "tacky and unprofessional" are subjective. And I find that urban-styled clothing tends to register higher on the "tacky and unprofessional" scale with a lot of people than other styles of casual clothing.

Who defines tacky and why do they care so much?

I also think the look Steve Nash is known to portray is tacky and unprofessional... also happens to be banned under the new rule as well.

I stand firm that it is the essence of the clothes that are the subject of the dress code, not the essense of those who wear them.

[LilMissSPURfect]

why can't we all just get along.....once the season starts no one is gonna care what timmy or manu are wearing......EXCEPT ON THEIR FINGGGGAASS BABY!!!!!!

[Spurminator]

That's the problem, you can't differentiate

Of course you can differentiate.

Thugs commit crimes. Non-thugs don't.

And your KKK analogy makes no sense whatsoever. It's not their clothes that make them bad.

[Kori Ellis]

Earlier in this thread someone claimed that the NFL has a dress code (they don't) and that you never here Michael Vick complain about it.

He's even complaining about the NBA code...

Falcons quarterback criticizes NBA dress code

October 20, 2005
FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. (AP) -- While it doesn't apply to him, Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick criticized the NBA's new dress code Thursday.

``It's a crazy situation,'' Vick said. ``I don't know why people with power would make them dress the way that they want them to dress. Those guys are professionals, but at the same time we are all grown (men).''

When the NBA season kicks off next month, players will be required to wear business-casual attire when involved in team or league business. They can't wear visible chains, pendants or medallions over their clothes.

``I don't think anyone should tell you how to dress, but that is the code and that is what they want and that is what the players have to abide by,'' Vick said. ``I totally disagree with it, but the people make the rules.''

[usckk]

Earlier in this thread someone claimed that the NFL has a dress code (they don't) and that you never here Michael Vick complain about it.

He's even complaining about the NBA code...

Falcons quarterback criticizes NBA dress code

October 20, 2005
FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. (AP) -- While it doesn't apply to him, Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick criticized the NBA's new dress code Thursday.

``It's a crazy situation,'' Vick said. ``I don't know why people with power would make them dress the way that they want them to dress. Those guys are professionals, but at the same time we are all grown (men).''

I agree with vick..Even if you hate it, just do it.


I agree with Vick. If even you hate it, just do it.

When the NBA season kicks off next month, players will be required to wear business-casual attire when involved in team or league business. They can't wear visible chains, pendants or medallions over their clothes.

``I don't think anyone should tell you how to dress, but that is the code and that is what they want and that is what the players have to abide by,'' Vick said. ``I totally disagree with it, but the people make the rules.''

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Spurminator]Of course you can differentiate.
Thugs commit crimes. Non-thugs don't.
Not by the clothing you can't and that's why the dress code is being implemented. Besides you emulate those you idolize, who is emulating whom is beside the point because they're all lumped together by their own choice of wanting to dress alike. (don't play dumb, you get the point)



[QUOTE=Spurminator]Of course you can differentiate.
Thugs commit crimes. Non-thugs don't.
So you're admitting that O'Neal, Artest and Jackson are thugs? And if so then there's a problem that needs attention and that's why the dress code is being implemented, to at least show an external separation.





spurminator: And your KKK analogy makes no sense whatsoever. It's not their clothes that make them bad
Clothes can and do speak volumes about the person and anyone wearing KKK attire is rightly branded as an idiotic racist. If you don't want the association, don't wear the clothes.

You stated that it's only "clothes and a hat" as if the apparel doesn't amount to anything and the parallel was that apparel can make one heck of a difference! You go out and put on the KKK garb and I don't care how nice of a person you are you are still gonna be branded an idiot, if for no other reason than you're stupid enough to be wearing the stuff. Agree?

[Despot]

If you don't want the association, don't wear the clothes.

You see that is part of the problem, some basketball players may not want to be associated with being a businessman, or professional, it would ruin their street cred.

Just wanted to add that the coach of the 49'rs wanted to were a suit on the sidelines in honor of his father, and the NFL denied that request.

[ShoogarBear]

I stand firm that it is the essence of the clothes that are the subject of the dress code, not the essense of those who wear them.

Riiiiiiiight. Sure you do.

Then you want a dress code for baseball, too?

[cecil collins]

Too much control. Too many rules. Too much time on the hands of a bunch of businessmen. What's next, a Yankees style code for hair, and facial hair.

[boutons]

washingtonpost.com

Opinions on the NBA's Dress Code Are Far From Uniform

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/10/22/PH2005102201338.jpg

By Mike Wise
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 23, 2005; A01

At one of Belgrade's finest restaurants last year, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James and many of their youthful U.S. Olympic basketball teammates attended a dinner in their honor. The guests included members of the Serbian national team, all of whom wore matching sport coats.

Iverson and some of his fellow National Basketball Association professionals arrived wearing an assortment of sweat suits, oversize jeans, shimmering diamond earrings and platinum chains, according to NBA officials who were at the dinner.

Larry Brown, the Hall of Fame coach of the U.S. team, was appalled and embarrassed. He later remarked to one official that he had thought about sending some of the worst-dressed players back to the team hotel.

Word of the fashion faux pas eventually made its way to the office of NBA Commissioner David Stern in New York, where concern was already on the rise about how some players were dressing and, more broadly, how the game's appeal was slipping. The NBA had tried mightily to fuse its product with hip-hop culture, viewing its young players and their street fashion sense as a way to connect with a new generation of fans in the post-Michael Jordan era. But that wasn't happening. Indeed, Stern and some of his closest advisers concluded, they might be driving fans away from the sport.

With the new season set to begin Nov. 1, Stern announced a dress code earlier this month that requires players to wear "business casual" attire whenever they are engaged in team or league business. It specifically bans shorts, T-shirts, jerseys, sneakers, flip-flops, headgear such as 'do-rags, and chains, pendants and medallions worn outside clothing.

Stern's image-overhaul decision sparked a contentious debate over fashion and race and called attention to a generational chasm between modern professional athletes, many of whom are black, and their mostly white paying customers.

Recent public opinion polls, as well as some of the NBA's own focus groups, ranked basketball players as the least popular athletes among the major professional sports leagues, according to NBA officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Television ratings for June's NBA Finals plunged 29 percent from the year before.

Asked during a conference call with reporters whether the dress code was aimed at appeasing the NBA's corporate sponsors, Stern replied: "We don't think that looking professional is a corporate decision. Our teams have done it for years, and there was a strong sense that we should do a uniform minimum code across the league, and that's what we did."

Many players who feel their individualism is under siege don't see the issue the same way, and are vowing that they will not allow themselves to be commodified by the league.

"They're targeting my generation -- the hip-hop generation," Iverson said in a television interview. He added, "You can put a murderer in a suit and he's still a murderer." Iverson, along with Denver's Marcus Camby, asked if the NBA would provide players with a clothing stipend to conform to the dress code.

"It's definitely an attack on the hip-hop influence of the NBA," said Elliott Wilson, the editor-in-chief of the hip-hop lifestyle magazine XXL. "It sort of allows the men in charge to think that they have reclaimed the NBA's value system -- and they now have a league that reflects their taste and what they believe in."

The problem is that the relationship between the NBA and hip-hop cuts both ways. The designer sneakers and oversize jerseys and shorts that are now the mainstays of hip-hop fashion appeared first on the basketball court, worn by a generation of players intent on stamping the game with a distinctive new style. For players such as Iverson, who like many stars has a successful clothing line that melds basketball and hip-hop, the dress-code edict could cost money in missed marketing opportunities.

"The style of the players, whether on the court or off, is so intertwined with the style of the streets," said Joseph Anthony, the chief executive of Vital Marketing, an urban youth marketing company. "It's an odd decision for a league that's main draw is the individuality of its players to attempt to create anonymity among its ranks."

Spike Lee, the filmmaker and lifelong fan of the New York Knicks, sees how some could cry hypocrisy -- especially the way the league in recent years marketed players such as Iverson as the next big thing and co-opted hip-hop music in many of its arenas. Moreover, hip-hop stars Jay-Z, Usher and Nelly and are part-owners of NBA franchises.

But "I think David Stern was right on this issue," Lee said in a telephone interview. "What are all those kids wearing the night they're drafted and they shake David Stern's hand? Suits. In corporate America, you have dress codes. Let's be honest: Image is everything. And they're trying to change the image of the league. Between the fight in Detroit last year and other perceptions, they've realized they have a public relations issue. They've set out to change it."

Charles Barkley, the former all-star player and now an analyst for Turner Sports Television, acknowledged there are racial subtexts connected to the new dress code. He also said that's why he's in favor of it.

"Young black kids dress like NBA players," Barkley told the Los Angeles Times. "Unfortunately, they don't get paid like NBA players. So when they go out in the real world, what they wear is held against them. . . .

"If a well-dressed white kid and a black kid wearing a 'do-rag and throwback jersey came to me in a job interview, I'd hire the white kid. That's reality."

The dress code is the most visible component of a broader effort by the league and the National Basketball Players Association to improve the relationship between players and fans. The matter was discussed during collective bargaining this summer, and the players agreed to two more mandated community appearances per season and a directive to sign autographs for fans after leaving the court during warmups.

Stern also announced a new NBA Cares initiative under which the league, its owners and its players would raise and donate $100 million to charities over the next five years. The plan envisions players taking part in coat drives, turkey giveaways and serving food at soup kitchens in November and December.

Stern is viewed as the most proactive and punitive commissioner in U.S. professional sports. His decisions to suspend Latrell Sprewell for an entire season for choking his coach, P.J. Carlesimo, in December 1997, and to suspend Ron Artest of the Indiana Pacers for the rest of the season last year for inciting November's melee between fans and players at the Palace of Auburn Hills in suburban Detroit, were lauded by peers and fans.

But his support of his players also is well documented. Five years ago, Stern publicly admonished an editor of the NBA-sponsored Hoop magazine for airbrushing several of Iverson's tattoos for a cover shoot. The commissioner is fond of criticizing what he says is the media's obsession with covering the negative aspects of the NBA.

The NBA is not unique among professional sports in its concern with its image, though each sport manages the issue in a different way. The National Football League stresses conformity; players can be penalized for removing their helmets on the field and fined for wearing the wrong shade of socks on game day. Some say Major League Baseball's more decentralized structure was partly responsible for allowing the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs by players to spread, but the league has been tackling the problem more aggressively under the threat of congressional sanctions.

NASCAR has moved from a niche, Southern-based sport into the cultural mainstream with a carefully crafted public relations strategy in which it wrapped itself -- and its cars and drivers -- in corporate endorsements.

Stern's possible concern that the NBA's image problems could alienate corporate sponsors and affect future network television contracts may have outweighed his desire for his players to be respected as individuals and accepted by mainstream culture, league officials said. "If you speak to 100 people on the street and most of them think our players are the worst of the lot in pro sports, there's a problem," one official said. "We know the vast majority of our players are good guys."

Mark Cuban, the loquacious owner of the Dallas Mavericks who is fond of wearing Mavericks T-shirts at his team's games, does not understand the fuss over players' appearance. "Some in the NBA want things to work purely in a way they are comfortable with rather than understanding players, communicating with them and understanding how the players can bring added value by dressing to fit the customer, rather than dressing to fit senior management," Cuban said in an e-mail.

"If NBA TV ratings were higher, this never would have come up."

Staff writer Michael Lee contributed to this report.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[hussker]

Retarded...

[Kori Ellis]

Stern: Dress code debate is 'live, unscripted drama'
By Chris Sheridan
ESPN Insider
Archive

Racial resentment comes with the territory for the old white man who took quite a bit of flak last week for telling young black men how to dress.

Uncle Dave was overstepping his bounds, some argued. Dictatorial David was showing how out of touch he was with hip-hop culture and the youthful fashion sense.

Allen Iverson called the NBA's new dress code "fake." Jason Richardson and Stephen Jackson thought it was racist. Paul Pierce argued that NBA players are not businessmen, but entertainers, while Tim Duncan opined it was "a load of crap" and "basically retarded."

With the regular season still two weeks from starting, NBA commissioner David Stern's edict managed to transcend the barrier separating from much deeper racial and cultural issues.

This is not the first time that phenomenon has occurred, nor will it be the last. But if you think it bothers Stern, you're wrong.

"We've gotten more ink on the dress policy than the preseason," Stern told ESPN.com. "But that shouldn't surprise us. Magic Johnson, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Latrell Sprewell, Allen [Iverson's] rap record. It's the NBA, we're an accelerator, and actually, that's OK. We're live, unscripted drama. We're a soap opera, on the court and off the court."

In our world, there are still considerable numbers of people who tend to see too many things in black and white, borderline extremists with no mental capacity to shade things a little gray. Folks from every corner of the spectrum found something to say about Dave's dictum on what can and can't be worn, and when, by the athletes employed by The House That Stern Built.

The rule covers all players -- black, white, mixed-race, Asian, European, South American, Caribbean, Canadian and Cuban (but not Mark) -- but a few players and commentators took it as a swipe at the younger black Americans who dominate the NBA's player population of about 450.

Stern, the overseer of a $3 billion-a-year business, said the rule was based on something simple, not sinister.

"We pressed the buttons as soft as we possibly could," Stern said, explaining he felt that with his league getting increasingly younger and the money getting increasingly better, a generation of NBA players had somehow become less aware than their predecessors as to how they were expected to conduct themselves and present themselves to the public.

Coming off a year in which the Pacers-Pistons brawl at The Palace was the defining moment of the regular season, Stern has made the dress code one of several new initiatives aimed at making his players more presentable to a public that will latch on to an issue once on year, on average, and turn it into a broader debate concerning the NBA and society at large.

"If anything, you can hold us responsible for not doing this sooner rather than doing it [at all]," Stern said in an hour-long interview in a conference room next to his office at the league's headquarters in Manhattan. "But for the vast majority of NBA players, it is not an issue.

"The notion is that if you're a professional, with it are certain protocols. One of them is the way you dress when you're on business.

"Our players are off a lot, certainly in the offseason, and when they're not playing or traveling. This doesn't affect that, and they can feel free to express themselves the same way that corporate America expresses itself, putting on shorts and sandals and a ratty old T-shirt and doing what you do."

Pacers president Larry Bird said he fielded more comments from fans about the clothes one of his injured players was wearing during games than he did from fans who simply wanted to discuss the merits of that player's game. The offensive outfit that provoked so much negative feedback was a T-shirt and shorts. Try wearing that to your job next time they have a Casual Friday.

"Young black kids dress like NBA players," Charles Barkley said on "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "Unfortunately, they don't get paid like NBA players. So when they go out in the real world, what they wear is held against them.

"If a well-dressed white kid and a black kid wearing a do-rag and throwback jersey came to me in a job interview, I'd hire the white kid," Barkley said. "That's reality."

Without being defensive, Stern defended himself in discussing the racial and cultural ramifications of the dress code, noting with a chuckle that the story did seem to have tremendous "legs" (journalism slang for staying power).

It seemed to be an epic public relations miscue early last week when Stern's announcement of a $100 million community outreach initiative was buried beneath news and commentary regarding the dress code. But to the commissioner, always spinning positive, the dress code brouhaha actually enabled a few mentions of the NBA Cares program when it otherwise would have been ignored by a mainstream media which routinely ignores the league's outreach initiatives.

"Certainly it makes for spectacular copy. ...

"The majority of [players say], 'What's the big deal? That's the way I dress already, and that sounds fair enough. We're all in this together.'

"But it's such a delicious issue that it will get a lot of ink."

Stern even shrugged off the use of the word "racist," saying he took no offense. With half a lifetime of experience in the league office behind him, he's seen enough topics touch off race-related debates. This is just another in a long line of them.

"Well, things involve race. Whenever you have a league in which some significant percentage is black, then things involve race. That's just the way it's going to be. When you have a league like the WNBA that has all women in it, you're going to end up with gender issues. That's just dependent on the composition of the league. But there's a difference between involving race and having actions interpreted as racist."

Was he surprised by the way racism had been thrown into this debate?

"No, because it was thrown into the issue of raising the entry age. That was an issue that was absolutely, positively about basketball, to have better players, older and more experienced, to have better business by being able to look at players a year later."

But during the debate over whether the age limit should be raised by a year to prevent high school players from jumping directly to the pros, Stern himself had made social policy part of the debate. He had said he didn't want young people, including pre-teens and 13- and 14-year-olds in urban America, to think becoming a professional basketball player was a viable post-high school employment option. To him, there were a few too many impressionable youngsters thinking they had the skills to be the next LeBron James.

Now Stern says: "The one thing I never wanted to do was to be viewed as telling a young person what was good for them."

As long as the NBA is a mostly black league based in a predominantly white country, issues involving race will continue to arise. Some of the debate in the days after The Palace brawl was skewed toward the ethnicity of the players throwing punches and the color of the fans on the receiving ends, and when the outrage crossed from palpable to preposterous it infuriated the commissioner.

"The brawl sort of [became] a flashpoint for a lot of feelings that are out there. With race, there's always an issue. And the brawl, unfairly, became the opportunity for the commentators to talk about all NBA players, although 450 of them were not involved in the brawl. 'These people.' 'These thugs.' 'These punks.' And that was a horrible sort of libel and slander of the NBA players. Images that ran were run in the context of a condemnation of all NBA players, and that really upset me. That became a critical flashpoint. And so we've got to dig out from under that," Stern said.

Repairing the league's image was discussed in collective bargaining talks, and the union agreed to have players sign more autographs, make appearances at season ticket-holder functions and explore ways to act more professionally, such as by adhering to the new dress code.

"We like to think that we [basketball people] are the ultimate egalitarians. You know, 'Shirts and skins and what have you got?' And that's been followed by our teams, who turn to whoever they think will help without regard to race. And we have a very effective business, which is based on exporting a league where the majority happens to be African-American. We feel pretty good about what we've been able to accomplish when all of those issues 25 years ago were hailed as likely to lead to our certain demise. So the fact that there's an outcry about cable, or a little bit of flutter about our dress code policy, that's the NBA. Welcome to our world."

Think about that the next time one of the NBA's hot-button issues crosses over into the mainstream debate. When was the last time there was a healthy racial discussion revolving around issues in the NFL or Major League Baseball? Having the NBA as a conduit for those types of discussions, and having a commissioner who's comfortable spurring those discussions, is a healthy thing for a country where the deteriorating level of discourse has helped fuel the polarization of the population.

The dress code is what it is, but it certainly doesn't make David Stern a racist. He's a man who recognizes race issues must occasionally be confronted. If that discussion has to take place through the forum he oversees, so be it.

"We're the NBA, we're the place -- and that's the good news about the NBA -- we're the place where if you want to engage the world in a single conversation, there's always a safe place to do it in sports. If you listen to the morning shows and you listen to the discussion, it's actually kind of a healthy discussion.

"It shows we have the capacity to engage."

[pache100]

Of course you can differentiate.

Thugs commit crimes. Non-thugs don't.

And your KKK analogy makes no sense whatsoever. It's not their clothes that make them bad.

Exactly. What if Jesse Jackson went out and bought a sheet and a pyramid cap. Would that make him a member of the KKK? I don't think so. It didn't make Pat Boone an acid rocker when he started dressing like one, either.

It should not be about the clothes. Period.

[boutons]

washingtonpost.com

The Case Against Do-Rags

By Jabari Asim

Monday, October 31, 2005; 11:39 AM

WASHINGTON -- I've always admired black athletes who use their celebrity and influence to speak out against injustice. Paul Robeson, Muhammad Ali, Tommie Smith, John Carlos, Arthur Ashe -- I count all these men among my heroes. That's why I was so heartened when Stephen Jackson of the Indiana Pacers announced his opposition to what he viewed as a fundamental unfairness. What was he opposing, I wondered. President Bush's ill-fated nomination of Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court? The fiasco in Iraq?

He wanted to talk about bling. And do-rags. And sagging pants. The NBA's new dress code forbids its athletes from wearing such items when representing the league. Jackson, Rasheed Wallace of the Detroit Pistons and Marcus Camby of the Denver Nuggets are among the players who have voiced objections to the new policy. Methinks they may be wearing their do-rags too tight.

Actually, I'm glad they spoke out because they have given me an opportunity to announce the formation of a new activist group: Dads Against Do-Rags. I've resented those ugly things for years, and I know I'm not alone. It's time we all came out and aired our feelings in the light of day.

Bling doesn't bother me, aside from occasionally hurting my eyes. I can admire the beauty of a bauble, especially on those rare instances when I can convince myself it has no connection to corruption in Sierra Leone, gunrunning or the hacked-off limbs of African children.

It's the do-rags that do me in. Bandannas I can tolerate. I'm talking about the nylon-polyester jobs that look like restitched discards from a hosiery factory. They serve no apparent purpose and look foolish instead of stylish.

Do-rag defenders cite its usefulness as a cover-up on bad-hair days. I've got an answer for that. It's called a brush.

Others have cited it as an emblem of individuality and rebellion against the status quo. Please. For me, it represents the opposite: slavery. It says, I have abandoned free will -- a sacred birthright for which my ancestors fought and died -- and joined the forces of mindless consumerism. Do-rag embracers are the logical descendants of those same folks who during the '70s and late '80s plunked down their ducats for "Curl Keepers" -- shower caps slickly repackaged and sold as hair-maintenance necessities.

You want to talk about rebellion? Then you may want to talk about Crispus Attucks, the oldest of old-school symbols of courageous uprising. Was he wearing a do-rag when he was killed by those trigger-happy Redcoats in 1770? No.

Maybe you'd rather discuss the late, great Rosa Parks, the ultimate modern symbol of principled individuality. Photos show that she was arrested and fingerprinted in 1955 while wearing a crisply tailored suit and minimal makeup. Dignity in abundance, but no do-rag in sight.

Shall we focus on the four young men who stepped into history by taking seats at a segregated lunch counter in Greensboro, N.C., in 1960? You guessed it: no do-rags.

I can't even look at photos of the 1963 showdown in Birmingham's Kelly Ingram Park without choking up. But even through my tears I can note the absence of do-rags. Perhaps then, you can understand why I associate rebellion with more abstract possessions, such as intelligence, integrity and fortitude. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers when "handkerchief-head" was an insult connoting a complete absence of such qualities.

I realize that the calculated sloppiness of some NBA players is also an attempt to distinguish themselves from the previous generation of pro basketballers. That group includes men such as Magic Johnson and Isaiah Thomas, who emerged from the locker room dressed like presidents of major corporations. Clothes don't really make the man, yet it's probably no coincidence that today both of them do indeed run major corporations.

If the example of Johnson and Thomas seems too tame for the younger set, they might consider the bra-burning feminists and fiery draft resisters of yesteryear. They declared their independence by doffing the symbols of their repression. They -- and you, dear reader -- can join me and other members of D.A.D. in our quest to free our brothers from do-rag domination. You don't have to burn those rags, though. You can send them to me, care of this newspaper. In return, I'll send you a membership certificate and the following pledge:

I will not be a slave to fashion. I will not wear recycled pantyhose on my head. I will honor the best traditions of my forebears. I will be free!

© 2005 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive

[SpursWoman]

Do-rag defenders cite its usefulness as a cover-up on bad-hair days. I've got an answer for that. It's called a brush.

:lmao


Clothes don't really make the man, yet it's probably no coincidence that today both of them do indeed run major corporations.


:tu

[ShoogarBear]

To sum: dress codes are necessary for blacks.

Whites can dress as shitty as they want (MLB players, Mark Cuban), and they will be evaluated on their character, because that's the American Way.

[dbreiden83080]

Exactly. What if Jesse Jackson went out and bought a sheet and a pyramid cap. Would that make him a member of the KKK? I don't think so. It didn't make Pat Boone an acid rocker when he started dressing like one, either.

It should not be about the clothes. Period.

I agree that a man should not be judged just on his clothes, but being professional for the most part in life is not enough you have to look the part as well. You may be a great guy but you do not show up to your wedding in jeans and a t-shirt or a big job interview like that either. Business casual attire is no big thing, some teams in sports require full suits and ties and restrictions on hair length and facial hair. These guys got off easy you may not agree with it but it does not mean it is ridiculous to ask them to conform to it. We all have to do things in life we do not want to do they are not above anyone else just because they are rich and privelaged.