Shannon Sharpe says Manu is not a top 30 player

[daslicer]

Shannon believes Manu at best is a top 75 player of all time. He also mentions that Tony Parker was better than Manu.
x0gPl312T-0

[Robz4000]

He isn't a Top 30 player of all time tbh. Top 30 most influential? Definitely. At least Top 50 of all time, however.

[Chinook]

I don't think this should be a problem. I think after 15 or so, I don't really care about ranking total players. Manu was great, obviously, but where he stacks up against guys from all era? No idea. So long as he makes the HoF in the first three ballots, I don't really care.

I also think you can argue that Parker has a better resume than Manu does, especially if you skew it toward NBA accomplishments. I would rather have Manu at any stage of his career than Tony at that same stage of his career, but Tony certainly gets underrated by Spurs fans nowadays.

[Dex]

Manu's legacy is going to hear a lot of these criticisms because he sacrificed statistics and accolades for the good of the team.

On paper, he was "only" a two-time All-Star and two-time 3rd-team All-NBA (as well as 6MOtY). Compared to other first ballot players...that's pretty low standards.

Sure, he could've put up bigger stats and gotten more individual awards on another team or if he demanded to start...but he chose to play for championships instead, and he racked up four of those (and several other seasons where the Spurs had a legitimate chance).

In the next two or three generations, casual fans will just look at Manu's box scores and wonder why he was so highly regarded. But every player who played against him or fan who ever watched him in his prime understands and appreciates the value of Manu Ginobili.

[DAF86]

Unless you go analyzing player by player, it is impossible to know who ranks where outside the top 15/20 players ever. Manu must be top 50, top 40 for sure though. That "top 75 at best" is pure ignorance.

Just check my sig for semirelated content.

[cd98]

Why do we care what football players think? NBA players would disagree.

[cd98]

Skip may be the best troll of all time.

[in2deep]

Shannon believes Manu at best is a top 75 player of all time. He also mentions that Tony Parker was better than Manu.
x0gPl312T-0


Pretty spot on :tu

[hater]

Shannon believes Manu at best is a top 75 player of all time. He also mentions that Tony Parker was better than Manu.
x0gPl312T-0


Very knowledgeable guy


Ppl still disagree Parker >> Manu??? :lmao

[phxspurfan]

Manu's legacy is going to hear a lot of these criticisms because he sacrificed statistics and accolades for the good of the team.

On paper, he was "only" a two-time All-Star and two-time 3rd-team All-NBA (as well as 6MOtY). Compared to other first ballot players...that's pretty low standards.

Sure, he could've put up bigger stats and gotten more individual awards on another team or if he demanded to start...but he chose to play for championships instead, and he racked up four of those (and several other seasons where the Spurs had a legitimate chance).

In the next two or three generations, casual fans will just look at Manu's box scores and wonder why he was so highly regarded. But every player who played against him or fan who ever watched him in his prime understands and appreciates the value of Manu Ginobili.

Basically this. Manu was never a hyped up superstar the way even marginal stars are hyped these days (*cough* Blake Griffin *cough*). And he was selfless to win at all costs. He accomplished that goal. If he was the George Gervin of another team and there as the only major star, playing 40 minutes a night, he would have probably dropped 60 point at least once and had much better numbers, like the numbers Kawhi had 2 years ago when he was featured in SA.


That being said, players are the ones whose opinion matters most (second closely by good coaches who ahve to game plan against players). So if players think he's the real deal, he likely is, because they had to guard the guy.

[phxspurfan]

Unless you go analyzing player by player, it is impossible to know who ranks where outside the top 15/20 players ever. Manu must be top 50, top 40 for sure though. That "top 75 at best" is pure ignorance.

Just check my sig for semirelated content.

There are other SGs that should be 3-5 on there. Some quickly to think of are Wade and Kobe. Probably Curry already. Probably Iverson (theyre both short but actually SGs in PG body).

[BillMc]

Love Manu but he's not top 30 NBA players (if not including international play).

Only long-term Spurs that are Top 30 all time are Tim, David and Ice. LMA and Kawhi have outside chances if you factor in their work for other teams. (obviously in KL's case it remains to seen how he does on other teams). And obviously there are some greats that had short stays here (Moses, Dominique, Rodman etc)

[DMC]

On every fan forum players get ranked far higher than they are going to be historically ranked. Manu isn't a top 30 player all time. Not sure he cracks the top 50.

[DAF86]

There are other SGs that should be 3-5 on there. Some quickly to think of are Wade and Kobe. Probably Curry already. Probably Iverson (theyre both short but actually SGs in PG body).

Curry isn't a SG. Also, that's not an arbitrary list. I just posted where Manu ranks among SG's in the all-time list of those stats.

[TheGreatYacht]

Shannon Sharpe is a knowledgeable guy. Skip otoh is a moron. He went from saying Kawhi surpassed Lebron, to Kawhi not even being the best player in the east lol....

[Proxy]

top 30 is pushing it, top 75 is pushing it

[lilbthebasedgod]

Of course he wasn’t.

[Larry O]

Sharpe and Carter must be suffering with CTE! But all jokes aside, yeah, these guys may be former jocks/professional athletes, but as NFL'ers, they don't have the full grasp/insight of the NBA, in my opinion. Manu DOES deserve 1st ballot in the Basketball Hall of Fame, especially with all of the accolades he's accomplished in his basketball career that not even Michael Jordan, Kobe nor Lebron James have accomplished. Now, aside from his 4 NBA titles; his 2 time all star appearances; his 6th man of the year award; 2 time all NBA 3rd Team Award; his Euroleague, FIBA & Italian MVP Awards, but aside from that, he is an Olympic Gold Champion; a Euroleague Champion, & an Italian League Champion. Manu is loaded with awards!!! But alongside Bill Bradley, a HOF'er himself, they are the only two players in basketball, including the NBA, who share winning in major championship titles such as the NBA, Euroleague & Olympics! NBA players,who have chimmed in on Manu's retirement, know who they have played with and against, & that's a great competitor with a BIG heart whom they are all acknowledging him as being a HOF'er. To Manu, Argentinian & SAS fans, we know how important he was to the teams he played for which we love, follow & root for as well. He will always be one of our best players in our hearts & minds, no matter what former NFL player, or anyone for that matter, will think about him! Manu's influence on & off the court is off the charts! No Manu in basketball would make for a big difference in basketball history, period! GSG!!!

[DJR210]

He isn't a Top 30 player of all time tbh. Top 30 most influential? Definitely. At least Top 50 of all time, however.


Why do we care what football players think? NBA players would disagree.

Agreed


Very knowledgeable guy


Sharpe and Carter must be suffering with CTE!

:lol

[Beartrucci]

Holy shit Shannon. "a good player" :rollin

GTFO what a joke

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol enrique>evita?

give evita the green light to chuck and u see the difference between him and enrique

enrique hasnt proven shit outside of the sperms system, remember when he tried to prove his shit to the mass only to be shut down by a superior player or team adjustment, yet that clown is the reason why the spurs are always backdoor sweep or fail in elimination games

[james evans]

Unless you go analyzing player by player, it is impossible to know who ranks where outside the top 15/20 players ever. Manu must be top 50, top 40 for sure though. That "top 75 at best" is pure ignorance.

Just check my sig for semirelated content.
for your signature, you are aware that Hall of famer Sam Jones has 10 rings right?

[Stabula]

Tony Parker was better than Manu but Manu was, obviously, also great

[Ice009]

Manu may not be a top 30 player of all-time, but the difference is he was better than a lot of the players ahead of him in crunch time. With the game on the line, in my opinion he's easily inside the top 50. Not sure at what spot, but he's definitely in the top 50. A lot of those guys that have great stats in the regular season weren't that great in the playoffs, especially in the biggest games and the biggest moments like Manu was. Manu did a lot more than nearly all of them when the pressure was at the highest, especially in his prime, he came through for the team most of the time. Obviously he wasn't as good when he started to decline physically, but again, he was still better than guys that are going to be ranked ahead of him.

I'll always take a guy like Manu who performs in the clutch, and/or in the biggest moments, particularly the playoffs when the pressure it at it's highest rather than someone like Malone (sorry Karl, you're the first guy that came to mind) who doesn't perform anywhere near as well in those same situations. Harden is another example, most people would probably say Harden is a better overall player than Manu was, but I'd never choose Harden over a prime Manu if you're looking to win a big game that can help you win the Championship.

[sasaint]

Shannon believes Manu at best is a top 75 player of all time. He also mentions that Tony Parker was better than Manu.
x0gPl312T-0

Looks like Urkel all grown up.

[Genovaswitness]

black players will never give manu his due. it's like IT saying people only cared about bird because he was white. sports are very racist

[DAF86]

for your signature, you are aware that Hall of famer Sam Jones has 10 rings right?

Folks from before the 70's weren't ranked, I think.

[SASdynasty!]

Looks like not everyone rides the short bus. Not everyone is a card-carrying Krew member. People outside of ST laughing at the idea of Manu being the second best Spur. Dude never even averaged 20 PPG or 5 APG, lol. Great bench player though, gotta admit.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Looks like not everyone rides the short bus. Not everyone is a card-carrying Krew member. People outside of ST laughing at the idea of Manu being the second best Spur. Dude never even averaged 20 PPG or 5 APG, lol. Great bench player though, gotta admit.

Dude - again with the fucking stats - this guy never played full minutes so you can't expect him to crack 20 pts average in his career. Math indicates he could have reached those numbers easily had he played to pad his numbers.

People analyzing Manu on the standpoint of numbers are missing the point, more than with any other player of his caliber.

This guys is CLEARLY anywhere between top 30 to 50. Not sure top 30 since we can come up with a pretty decent list from 0 to 30.

[FireMicoHalili]

sports journalists trying to put their names out there by churning out contrarian opinions just for the sake of having an alternative opinion are disgusting. I don't know how these people enjoy splitting teeny tiny hairs to create the illusion of intelligence. You've got guys like Rob Perez and Matt Moore and then you've got guys like this and Cris Carter.

You've also got emotional lesbians like that Project Spurs homer Quixem Ramirez.

[cd98]

I don't think it's a big argument in whether he is top 30 or not.

He's a HOF, which is all that really matters.

If you go by skill, he's top 30 in my book.

If you go by NBA accomplishments, he's not top 30 in my book.

If you go by top closers in the game, he's top 5.

If you go by influence/contributions to the game, he's top 5.

If you go enjoyable to watch, he's probably top 5.

[jsandiego]

Manu obviously doesn't have the PPG stats, but his Plus/Minus, VORP, and Win Shares per 36 minutes are all Top 50 of all-time in both playoffs and regular season. PER is 65th all-time.

The guy was a winner, plain and simple. He made things happen that others couldn't. On the all-time SG list, I'd probably only put MJ, Kobe, Wade, and maybe Drexler above him.

[sammy]

Sharpe and Carter must be suffering with CTE! But all jokes aside, yeah, these guys may be former jocks/professional athletes, but as NFL'ers, they don't have the full grasp/insight of the NBA, in my opinion. Manu DOES deserve 1st ballot in the Basketball Hall of Fame, especially with all of the accolades he's accomplished in his basketball career that not even Michael Jordan, Kobe nor Lebron James have accomplished. Now, aside from his 4 NBA titles; his 2 time all star appearances; his 6th man of the year award; 2 time all NBA 3rd Team Award; his Euroleague, FIBA & Italian MVP Awards, but aside from that, he is an Olympic Gold Champion; a Euroleague Champion, & an Italian League Champion. Manu is loaded with awards!!! But alongside Bill Bradley, a HOF'er himself, they are the only two players in basketball, including the NBA, who share winning in major championship titles such as the NBA, Euroleague & Olympics! NBA players,who have chimmed in on Manu's retirement, know who they have played with and against, & that's a great competitor with a BIG heart whom they are all acknowledging him as being a HOF'er. To Manu, Argentinian & SAS fans, we know how important he was to the teams he played for which we love, follow & root for as well. He will always be one of our best players in our hearts & minds, no matter what former NFL player, or anyone for that matter, will think about him! Manu's influence on & off the court is off the charts! No Manu in basketball would make for a big difference in basketball history, period! GSG!!!

Agreed! Excellent post! Two has-been NFL players spouting nonsense! Smh

[james evans]

Folks from before the 70's weren't ranked, I think.
Why? The NBA didn't begin with Jordan. Just like boxing didn't begin with Ali, Tyson, Leonard or Mayweather jr.

[phxspurfan]

Curry isn't a SG. Also, that's not an arbitrary list. I just posted where Manu ranks among SG's in the all-time list of those stats.

Sure, but come on man. Kobe and Wade were way better. Don't be a homer

[phxspurfan]

Manu obviously doesn't have the PPG stats, but his Plus/Minus, VORP, and Win Shares per 36 minutes are all Top 50 of all-time in both playoffs and regular season. PER is 65th all-time.

The guy was a winner, plain and simple. He made things happen that others couldn't. On the all-time SG list, I'd probably only put MJ, Kobe, Wade, and maybe Drexler above him.

Iverson was a way better player. Other (modern) guys in the conversation include Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston, Michael Finley to name a few

[Mark in Austin]

Stanley Sharpe? WGAF?

[phxspurfan]

Manu obviously doesn't have the PPG stats, but his Plus/Minus, VORP, and Win Shares per 36 minutes are all Top 50 of all-time in both playoffs and regular season. PER is 65th all-time.

The guy was a winner, plain and simple. He made things happen that others couldn't. On the all-time SG list, I'd probably only put MJ, Kobe, Wade, and maybe Drexler above him.

I don't like comparing the advanced metrics for all time greatness because Manu could never handle 40 MPG over his entire career. You can't play the way he played and not get seriously hurt. So he was perfect as a bench spark plug but to have a guy crash into everyone in the paint for 40 minutes a game and he would have torn an acl or shattered an ankle by the time he was 28.

[Seventyniner]

I don't think this should be a problem. I think after 15 or so, I don't really care about ranking total players. Manu was great, obviously, but where he stacks up against guys from all era? No idea. So long as he makes the HoF in the first three ballots, I don't really care.

I also think you can argue that Parker has a better resume than Manu does, especially if you skew it toward NBA accomplishments. I would rather have Manu at any stage of his career than Tony at that same stage of his career, but Tony certainly gets underrated by Spurs fans nowadays.

Tony's NBA career accomplishments are certainly better than Manu's, but the inclusion of international ball makes up for the gap imo.

I would be shocked if either of them made it to the second ballot and absolutely floored if it took a third. Tony's HoF case will be similar to Pau's but a bit stronger due to the FMVP award and four top-10 finishes in MVP voting, while Manu's international accomplishments are so impressive and unique that the combination of that and his NBA career will get him in quickly.

For what it's worth, bkref has Tony with a 93.9% HoF probability, Pau 93.3%, Manu 20.0%. But the inclusion of Manu's success in Italy and with the Argentina national team should put him in. That gold medal carries a lot of weight.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

[DAF86]

Sure, but come on man. Kobe and Wade were way better. Don't be a homer

And who is saying they aren't? Do you understand what my sig says?

[DAF86]

Iverson was a way better player. Other (modern) guys in the conversation include Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston, Michael Finley to name a few

:lmao

[cd98]

Iverson is a better basketball player than Manu and most everyone in the NBA. He's not great on teams, but his individual abilities in his prime were off the charts. His speed and ability to shoot...dude was incredible to watch. If he were a few inches taller, he'd be better than both Lebron and Jordan. Again, individual talent-wise. He was certainly not going to win an NBA title.

[phxspurfan]

Iverson is a better basketball player than Manu and most everyone in the NBA. He's not great on teams, but his individual abilities in his prime were off the charts. His speed and ability to shoot...dude was incredible to watch. If he were a few inches taller, he'd be better than both Lebron and Jordan. Again, individual talent-wise. He was certainly not going to win an NBA title.

He also played in a different era, where loyalty to one's city and the team that drafted him was held higher in regard versus ring chasing. Players and people in general had more loyalty back then. Now in the social media age every one wants to be an icon, and that means ring chasing a la KD. No one sees any glory in winning in the small town market that trusted you enough to draft and develop you as a 19 year old. Iverson could have definitely won a ring in today's era, if clones like Kyrie Irving (who is basically the 2018 Stephon Marbury) can win rings alongside players like LeBron. If Iverson played in today's game he would be eve more amazing with the lack of physical defense and defenders in general. He would be on a super team paired with a guy like LeBron or Anthony Davis or whatever and nobody would label him as a cancer, just as another awesome baller.

That being said, Argies gonna Argie. Just respect Manu for what he is/was. A great, great ball player, certainly a hall of famer, an icon for his style of play, a great steward/ambassador of the game, selfless personality who chose to win at all costs including his own personal glory. One of the best if not the best international players of all time to play in the NBA. And in the conversation among the game's all time great SGs. But not above guys who were clearly better players.

[Beartrucci]

COME OWLN SKIIILP!!

Shannon's always good for a laugh. Takes, nah.

[DAF86]

Iverson is a better basketball player than Manu and most everyone in the NBA. He's not great on teams, but his individual abilities in his prime were off the charts. His speed and ability to shoot...dude was incredible to watch. If he were a few inches taller, he'd be better than both Lebron and Jordan. Again, individual talent-wise. He was certainly not going to win an NBA title.

So, is he really that great, then?

Also, great hability to shoot what? 40% from the field, 30% from 3 and 75% from FT's?

[DAF86]

He also played in a different era, where loyalty to one's city and the team that drafted him was held higher in regard versus ring chasing. Players and people in general had more loyalty back then. Now in the social media age every one wants to be an icon, and that means ring chasing a la KD. No one sees any glory in winning in the small town market that trusted you enough to draft and develop you as a 19 year old. Iverson could have definitely won a ring in today's era, if clones like Kyrie Irving (who is basically the 2018 Stephon Marbury) can win rings alongside players like LeBron. If Iverson played in today's game he would be eve more amazing with the lack of physical defense and defenders in general. He would be on a super team paired with a guy like LeBron or Anthony Davis or whatever and nobody would label him as a cancer, just as another awesome baller.

That being said, Argies gonna Argie. Just respect Manu for what he is/was. A great, great ball player, certainly a hall of famer, an icon for his style of play, a great steward/ambassador of the game, selfless personality who chose to win at all costs including his own personal glory. One of the best if not the best international players of all time to play in the NBA. And in the conversation among the game's all time great SGs. But not above guys who were clearly better players.

"Argies gonna Argie" :lol Realizing Manu was a better basketball player than Iverson has nothing to do with nationalities you xenophibic mofo. Tell me one fucking thing Iverson was better than Manu at, other than speed. Just one fucking thing.

[DAF86]

Swap Manu and Iverson in the '04 Olympics and team USA wins by 30. That's how much better Manu was than Iverson as a basketball player.

[D Emily D]

All stats have blind spots or shortcomings, but advanced stats like Win Shares and BPM, especially when measured over a longer period of time, show pure effectiveness on the court free from sentimentality, perception, Public Relations, etc., etc.

It's not a coincidence that Manu was usually near the top of the league in these stats during his prime.

Awards like Finals MVP are overrated. The award in '07 easily could've gone to Duncan instead of Parker, and if the Spurs had pulled out the win in '13, it might've gone to Danny Green. Manu was an integral part of a championship level team for more than a solid decade. That means much more than a single award.

[eric365]

Skip may be the best troll of all time.

It’s like listenning a spurstalk post

[Strategic]

No value under my roof in Shannon sharpes opinion. I feel fortunate Manu was a leader on my favorite team and sure that he is a first ballot HOF’er.

[cd98]

So, is he really that great, then?

Also, great hability to shoot what? 40% from the field, 30% from 3 and 75% from FT's?

Did you watch a 24 year old Iverson play or a 33 year old Iverson? He was a good shooter facing the toughest team defenses and the best defenders night in and out. No one else on that roster had to be guarded. And yet he carried them to an NBA finals and he won an MVP. I love Manu, I do. He's one, if not my favorite all time players. But he was no Iverson and even he would admit it. Now would the Spurs have won titles with Iverson? I don't know. He didn't seem to be able to coexist with other scorers. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was an elite scorer that I saw torch Bruce Bowen, MJ/Pippen, whoever. All for a guy probably less than 6 ft tall. He was no doubt impressive.

Manu was a great player, but he was never in the MVP discussion, and I really don't think he could take that same 76er team to an NBA finals by himself. We'll never know because he always played with the big 3 and though his contribution to the big 3 was huge, at the end of the day, he was playing with a guy easily in everyone's top 10, if not Top 5 of all time great players in Tim Duncan and Tony Parker is a historically decorated player too.

[cd98]

Swap Manu and Iverson in the '04 Olympics and team USA wins by 30. That's how much better Manu was than Iverson as a basketball player.

I agree. But that's because the secret to that team was chemistry. You probably could've put Kobe on that team and the same thing would happen and there's no doubt Kobe was better than Manu. But someone can be a great individual player and not work in a team context. That's why I say Iverson was a better player, but not a better team player.

[Phenomanul]

Michael Jordan
.
.
.
.
Kobe Bryant
.
.
Clyde Drexler
.
Dwayne Wade
Manu Ginobili
.
Jerry West
Ray Allen
James Harden
George Gervin
.
.
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
.
Allen Iverson
John Havlicek

[Arcadian]

A simple-minded argument from a simple-minded fool.

I'm tired of foobah morons commenting on basketball. Their brains are all fucked up from being smashed against helmets for 10+ years.

[phxspurfan]

Michael Jordan
.
.
.
.
Kobe Bryant
.
.
Clyde Drexler
.
Dwayne Wade
Manu Ginobili
.
Jerry West
Ray Allen
James Harden
George Gervin
.
.
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
.
Allen Iverson
John Havlicek

Forgot about Harden. There's already a case for him to be better considered than Manu all time. He is a MVP, multiple all star, better scorer, better distributor, worse defender but much, more durable. Equally as clutch.

[Phenomanul]

Forgot about Harden. There's already a case for him to be better considered than Manu all time. He is a MVP, multiple all star, better scorer, better distributor, worse defender but much, more durable. Equally as clutch.

The guy who is known as a massive playoff underperformer...?

Yeah, he's got the gaudy stats... but Manu literally invented the game that Harden has patterned his own game after.

[DAF86]

Did you watch a 24 year old Iverson play or a 33 year old Iverson? He was a good shooter facing the toughest team defenses and the best defenders night in and out. No one else on that roster had to be guarded. And yet he carried them to an NBA finals and he won an MVP. I love Manu, I do. He's one, if not my favorite all time players. But he was no Iverson and even he would admit it. Now would the Spurs have won titles with Iverson? I don't know. He didn't seem to be able to coexist with other scorers. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was an elite scorer that I saw torch Bruce Bowen, MJ/Pippen, whoever. All for a guy probably less than 6 ft tall. He was no doubt impressive.

Manu was a great player, but he was never in the MVP discussion, and I really don't think he could take that same 76er team to an NBA finals by himself. We'll never know because he always played with the big 3 and though his contribution to the big 3 was huge, at the end of the day, he was playing with a guy easily in everyone's top 10, if not Top 5 of all time great players in Tim Duncan and Tony Parker is a historically decorated player too.

You mean a 24 yo Iverson that shot 40% from the field and 70% from the free throws like? Yeah, great shooter.

Dude, Iverson is my favourite player of all-time. I know damn well all his strengths and weakneses. Same as Manu. That's exactly why I know Manu is the vastly superior player.

[DAF86]

Forgot about Harden. There's already a case for him to be better considered than Manu all time. He is a MVP, multiple all star, better scorer, better distributor, worse defender but much, more durable. Equally as clutch.

"equally as clutch" :lmao:lmao:lmao

Harden is literally Manu minus the defense and the clutch gene. Go check Harden's numbers as a sub on OKC and compare it to Manus. You may get surprised.

[DAF86]

I agree. But that's because the secret to that team was chemistry. You probably could've put Kobe on that team and the same thing would happen and there's no doubt Kobe was better than Manu. But someone can be a great individual player and not work in a team context. That's why I say Iverson was a better player, but not a better team player.

In other words: not a better player.

Also, I doubt Iverson beats Manu on a one on one.

[Play Boban]

Manu isn't likely a top 30 player all-time tbh. But neither is Porker. Few are.

[JakeCuenca]

DAFhomer :lol

Listen Manu is a great player and his advanced stats suggest he is a top 50 player of all time but to play devil advocate here, Manus advanced stats is slighlty inflated due to playing a decent amount of his time against Bench Guys.

At his peak he was easily a top 10 player, but Harden is easily the most sophisticated offensive SG of all time.

Iverson mainly played in an era where 40% was acceptable so long as the personel around focused on defensive tasks since most players in the early 00s were less efficient in general.

Manu is easily the most influential spurs player though. Even more so than Duncan despite being clearly a significantly better player.

[FireMicoHalili]

We’re mostly in agreement Manu isn’t top 30 of all time. The real issue is bringing this up on the guy’s retirement. It’s a factual statement that’s just in bad taste. Fans and players alike are celebrating his contributions to the game and the Spurs dynasty and there are contrarian buffoons like “oh he’s not top 30” or “he committed eight turnovers in one game in the Heat series”. What value does that add to the conversation other than trying to make your opinion stand out? These guys need to get a grip.

[cd98]

You mean a 24 yo Iverson that shot 40% from the field and 70% from the free throws like? Yeah, great shooter.

Dude, Iverson is my favourite player of all-time. I know damn well all his strengths and weakneses. Same as Manu. That's exactly why I know Manu is the vastly superior player.

You put Manu on that 76er team and he won’t shoot 40%. And AI prime would destroy Manu prime in one on one. You can be a great player and not fit well in a team concept. For instance, AI had to have the ball in his hands. When he did, he could be dominant. Manu could play on or off the ball. AI would never be a bench player. Not so for Manu.

End of the day, this is all opinion and I know an Argentine is going to side w Manu. I don’t fault you for that. I’m partial to him bc I’m a Spurs fan. But you’d be hard pressed to find an expert that would say Manu is a better B.B. player than AI. There are things Manu does better than him, but I don’t think any GM would pick Manu over AI.

[JakeCuenca]

You put Manu on that 76er team and he won’t shoot 40%. And AI prime would destroy Manu prime in one on one. You can be a great player and not fit well in a team concept. For instance, AI had to have the ball in his hands. When he did, he could be dominant. Manu could play on or off the ball. AI would never be a bench player. Not so for Manu.

End of the day, this is all opinion and I know an Argentine is going to side w Manu. I don’t fault you for that. I’m partial to him bc I’m a Spurs fan. But you’d be hard pressed to find an expert that would say Manu is a better B.B. player than AI. There are things Manu does better than him, but I don’t think any GM would pick Manu over AI.

Lots of modern GMs would pick Manu because Iverson isnt an ideal 10' player. Sure in the 00s though, i doubt anyone would pick Manu

[phxspurfan]

Harden is literally Manu minus the defense and the clutch gene. Go check Harden's numbers as a sub on OKC and compare it to Manus. You may get surprised.

Just took a look. Harden was 22 (!) years old his last and most productive year in OKC. He was still a kid. And the offense was not centered around him, as it was more about Russ and KD. Still, his numbers were comparable (3p%, PPG, TRB/G, AST/G, St/G Minutes/per game), to Manu's first year with comparable minutes (about 30 mpg), 04-05, when Manu started every game (more attention, more plays run for him, Pop designing plays for him and letting him have the ball at the top of the key to go to his left every drive). And, Manu was fully in his prime that year, at 27. So your numbers argument is baseless.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html


And then you can look at today, when Harden is literally the face of his franchise for several years, each time leading them to the WC finals by himself, with CP0 out with injury, and still almost beating the all star Worriers. You really can't even compare the two, apples to apples. One is clearly far superior player, even if the other is a beloved Spur and a 1st ballot HOF.

[TimDunkem]

Who cares?

[Down Under]

I think 3 things that count against him in his overall ranking are his his minutes played (25/game), the fact he came into the NBA so late (aged 25) & that he got hurt 4 seasons in a row going into the playoffs in his prime 2008-2011. As far as his prime is concerned, he's a Top 50 all time, unquestionably.

[Wu36]

Dude - again with the fucking stats - this guy never played full minutes so you can't expect him to crack 20 pts average in his career. Math indicates he could have reached those numbers easily had he played to pad his numbers.

People analyzing Manu on the standpoint of numbers are missing the point, more than with any other player of his caliber.

This guys is CLEARLY anywhere between top 30 to 50. Not sure top 30 since we can come up with a pretty decent list from 0 to 30.
On the other side,his style of play would never lead to a player you could count on to play full minutes. He was great at what he was but a top 5 regardless of stats he wasn’t. Fans need to be real. Enjoy the rings that were won. But damn don’t disrespect other players and teams over your joi

[phxspurfan]

Manu isn't likely a top 30 player all-time tbh. But neither is Porker. Few are.

Just out of my own curiosity, I'm going to name my personal top 30. Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bill Russell
11. LeBron
12. Malone
13. Stockton
14. Jason Kidd
15. Dirk
16. DRob
17. Wade
18. Garnett
19. KD
20. Iverson
21. Moses Malone
22. Ewing
23. Olajuwon
24. Barkley
25. Pippen
26. Nash
27. Ray Allen
28. Westbrook
29. Harden
30. Curry


All iconic players, all better all time than Manu.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

On the other side,his style of play would never lead to a player you could count on to play full minutes. He was great at what he was but a top 5 regardless of stats he wasn’t. Fans need to be real. Enjoy the rings that were won. But damn don’t disrespect other players and teams over your joi

Agreed to some extent.

Top 5 all time any position or top 5 SG? that's a pretty big difference - he wasn't a top 5 player at any position but I like his chances to be top 5 SG or at least top 10 SG all time

[daslicer]

On the other side,his style of play would never lead to a player you could count on to play full minutes. He was great at what he was but a top 5 regardless of stats he wasn’t. Fans need to be real. Enjoy the rings that were won. But damn don’t disrespect other players and teams over your joi

That's always been my biggest knock on Manu was that his reckless style didn't allow him to play more than 30 minutes per game. He only had 2 season where he averaged 30 minutes a game.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Just out of my own curiosity, I'm going to name my personal top 30. Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bill Russell
11. LeBron
12. Malone
13. Stockton
14. Jason Kidd
15. Dirk
16. DRob
17. Wade
18. Garnett
19. KD
20. Iverson
21. Moses Malone
22. Ewing
23. Olajuwon
24. Barkley
25. Pippen
26. Nash
27. Ray Allen
28. Westbrook
29. Harden
30. Curry


All iconic players, all better all time than Manu.

Your list makes a lot of sense - very similar to mine with some exceptions. To me the following players from your list aren't top 30:

Kidd
Wade
Iverson
Nash
Westbrook
Harden

* Harden and Westbrook can still make top 30 if they ring.

Stats don't really mean anything to me. A very smart player can pad numbers like crazy. I rate top players based on their contribution and status throughout their careers and the respect they've got from their peers. That's why I don't think CP3 or Melo should be there either but some folks in this forum swear they are both top 30 or higher

Edit: BTW, none of these folks you rated above top 30 and that I excluded from your list are or were above Manu. I hope you aren't using ppg or some other stat to place them over Manu because it doesn't make sense. Most of these guys have never won anything.

[Wu36]

That's always been my biggest knock on Manu was that his reckless style didn't allow him to play more than 30 minutes per game. He only had 2 season where he averaged 30 minutes a game.
To both of the above post.i could make a case for him as top 10 2g? Just a case. He was awesome. Why rank? Our team won 4 with him.

[JakeCuenca]

Just out of my own curiosity, I'm going to name my personal top 30. Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bill Russell
11. LeBron
12. Malone
13. Stockton
14. Jason Kidd
15. Dirk
16. DRob
17. Wade
18. Garnett
19. KD
20. Iverson
21. Moses Malone
22. Ewing
23. Olajuwon
24. Barkley
25. Pippen
26. Nash
27. Ray Allen
28. Westbrook
29. Harden
30. Curry


All iconic players, all better all time than Manu.

This nigga has olajuwon at 23 Spurmsfans :lmao

[JakeCuenca]

Curry is easily a top 15 player of all time.

Having losers like Kid over Steph :lmao

Spursfans never ceases to amaze me.

Edit: My bad, you didnt have it in order.

But Ive seen that list before In spurstalk and it was aperently in order

[daslicer]

This nigga has olajuwon at 23 Spurmsfans :lmao

You lack reading comprehension skills. He said "Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me."

[DAF86]

DAFhomer :lol

Listen Manu is a great player and his advanced stats suggest he is a top 50 player of all time but to play devil advocate here, Manus advanced stats is slighlty inflated due to playing a decent amount of his time against Bench Guys.

At his peak he was easily a top 10 player, but Harden is easily the most sophisticated offensive SG of all time.

Iverson mainly played in an era where 40% was acceptable so long as the personel around focused on defensive tasks since most players in the early 00s were less efficient in general.

Manu is easily the most influential spurs player though. Even more so than Duncan despite being clearly a significantly better player.

You just Say that 'cause Harden got traded and tot the chance to be the number one guy of a team. Would you be saying the same thing if Harden stayed all his career as the 6th man of OKC averaging 16 ppg?

And I'm not even going to bother keep answering the Manu/AI thing. Folks not realizing Manu is clearly better aren't worth my time. You are on a lesser analytical level.

[DAF86]

You put Manu on that 76er team and he won’t shoot 40%. And AI prime would destroy Manu prime in one on one. You can be a great player and not fit well in a team concept. For instance, AI had to have the ball in his hands. When he did, he could be dominant. Manu could play on or off the ball. AI would never be a bench player. Not so for Manu.

End of the day, this is all opinion and I know an Argentine is going to side w Manu. I don’t fault you for that. I’m partial to him bc I’m a Spurs fan. But you’d be hard pressed to find an expert that would say Manu is a better B.B. player than AI. There are things Manu does better than him, but I don’t think any GM would pick Manu over AI.

:lol:lol:lol

Manu will always average over 40% from the field because he is a smart efficient player that won't shoot 30 twenty foot fadeaway jumpers per game.

Smh at dumb Spurs fans that never realized the true greatness of Ginobili.

Dude, small advice: stop going by perception and look at the stats that matter. Like the ones on mi sig.

[DAF86]

Just took a look. Harden was 22 (!) years old his last and most productive year in OKC. He was still a kid. And the offense was not centered around him, as it was more about Russ and KD. Still, his numbers were comparable (3p%, PPG, TRB/G, AST/G, St/G Minutes/per game), to Manu's first year with comparable minutes (about 30 mpg), 04-05, when Manu started every game (more attention, more plays run for him, Pop designing plays for him and letting him have the ball at the top of the key to go to his left every drive). And, Manu was fully in his prime that year, at 27. So your numbers argument is baseless.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html


And then you can look at today, when Harden is literally the face of his franchise for several years, each time leading them to the WC finals by himself, with CP0 out with injury, and still almost beating the all star Worriers. You really can't even compare the two, apples to apples. One is clearly far superior player, even if the other is a beloved Spur and a 1st ballot HOF.

Harden averaged 16 ppg on his best year as a bench player, around the same Manu did for his career. The next year, as a number one guy he scored 26 ppg. Coincidence?

Manu would have had the same impact as a number one guy. Difference is he would have been a better leader, would have played defense, and wouldn't have shrinked on the playoffs.

[cd98]

:lol:lol:lol

Manu will always average over 40% from the field because he is a smart efficient player that won't shoot 30 twenty foot fadeaway jumpers per game.

Smh at dumb Spurs fans that never realized the true greatness of Ginobili.

Dude, small advice: stop going by perception and look at the stats that matter.

When you play mostly against bench players, you tend to have an easier time scoring. But I guess “dumb” is anyone that thinks differently than you.

Sure Manu dominated second units. No one ever asked him to do what AI did, therefore, we will never know if he could carry a team in the NBA like AI.

And no, being great in FIBA is not the same as the NBA. So comparing what AI did in the NBA to what Manu did in a FIBA league is nonsensical.

[DAF86]

When you play mostly against bench players, you tend to have an easier time scoring. But I guess “dumb” is anyone that thinks differently than you.

Sure Manu dominated second units. No one ever asked him to do what AI did, therefore, we will never know if he could carry a team in the NBA like AI.

And no, being great in FIBA is not the same as the NBA. So comparing what AI did in the NBA to what Manu did in a FIBA league is nonsensical.

Yeah, that's why the most Harden averaged as a bench player was 16 ppg, and as a number one option he's averaging 30 ppg, because it is easier to score more coming off the bench.

Dude, do yourself a favour and stop making a fool out of yourself.

[cd98]

Harden averaged 16 ppg on his best year as a bench player, around the same Manu did. The next year, as a number one guy he scored 26 ppg. Coincidence?

Manu would have had the same impact as a number one guy. Difference is he would have been a better leader, would have played defense, and wouldn't have shrinked on the playoffs.

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

[cd98]

Yeah, that's why the most Harden averaged as a bench player was 16 ppg, and as a number one option he's averaging 30 ppg, because it is easier to score more coming off the bench.

Dude, do yourself a favour and stop making a fool out of yourself.

Ha. Harden in OKC is not comparable to Manu on Spurs.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Jesus christ I cant believe people are ranking AI over Manu. Watch some damn games from both players. Look at their careers.

They are actually opposite players in every way. AI was a statpadder of the first degree and he would take half the shots of his entire team. His selfish ass never allowed him to win anything even though he was in good teams.

Manu was a complete different player in every way and had a hand and a half in every single one of those 4 last rings

[SpurOutofTownFan]

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

Comparing red apples to green apples: Harden while a 6th man in OKC he had KD, WB ,and Ibaka, plus a pretty solid bench. That's arguably a pretty decent team compared to Spurs post 2005 which is when they firmly sat Manu on the bench. Manu had TP and TD, and maybe Bowen, and a pretty good bench. So it was pretty much the same thing.

Harden is a great player - I think he can surpass Manu after his career is complete but he isn't there yet. He will need to accomplish some degree of success. Otherwise we are just saying a guy who takes most of the shots in his team and scores 30 pts per game is better than anyone else. I don't think so. I refuse to concede that that's the measure of a great player in bb. And that's a problem with most of you guys.

[DAF86]

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

Dude, you are talking as if Manu had never led 50+ wins teams on the NBA. Do you even know the history of your own team? Do you remember Manu leading Keith fucking Bogans and Dejuan Blair to 61 wins?

[cd98]

Dude, you are talking as if Manu had never led 50+ wins teams on the NBA. Do you even know the history of your own team? Do you remember Manu leading Keith fucking Bogans and Debían Blair to 61 wins?

Hmmm Tim Duncan. Do you know Spurs history? Tim was the team leader, not Manu.

[DAF86]

Hmmm Tim Duncan. Do you know Spurs history? Tim was the team leader, not Manu.

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

[cd98]

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

It was always Tim. Please.

[daslicer]

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

Actually Duncan lead the team in scoring during the '09-'10 season. Manu did lead the team in scoring in '08 but it was by razor thin margin since he averaged 19.5 points per game while Tim averaged 19.3.

[daslicer]

Comparing red apples to green apples: Harden while a 6th man in OKC he had KD, WB ,and Ibaka, plus a pretty solid bench. That's arguably a pretty decent team compared to Spurs post 2005 which is when they firmly sat Manu on the bench. Manu had TP and TD, and maybe Bowen, and a pretty good bench. So it was pretty much the same thing.

Harden is a great player - I think he can surpass Manu after his career is complete but he isn't there yet. He will need to accomplish some degree of success. Otherwise we are just saying a guy who takes most of the shots in his team and scores 30 pts per game is better than anyone else. I don't think so. I refuse to concede that that's the measure of a great player in bb. And that's a problem with most of you guys.

He's already surpassed Manu. He won a league MVP. You can't be that crazy to put Manu over a league MVP.

[DAF86]

Actually Duncan lead the team in scoring during the '09-'10 season. Manu did lead the team in scoring in '08 but it was by razor thin margin since he averaged 19.5 points per game while Tim averaged 19.3.

That's why I said "coming into the playoffs" for the 2010 season. After a slow start to the season, Manu was the number one option that allowed the Spurs to win 61 games, and the only reason the Spurs got eliminated on the first round was because Manu missed game one.

[FkLA]

That's why I said "coming into the playoffs" for the 2010 season. After a slow start to the season, Manu was the number one option that allowed the Spurs to win 61 games, and the only reason the Spurs got eliminated on the first round was because Manu missed game one.

That was 2010-2011 when they lost to the Grizz.

2010 playoffs was when TP went down and the great Emmanuel David Ginobili assumed playmaking duties with Hill as the PG. He was a Top 5 player the last third of that season. I remember making a thread about it, he averaged like 23-6-5 down the stretch or something ridiculous like that.

[DAF86]

That was 2010-2011 when they lost to the Grizz.

2010 playoffs was when TP went down and the great Emmanuel David Ginobili assumed playmaking duties with Hill as the PG. He was a Top 5 player the last third of that season. I remember making a thread about it, he averaged like 23-6-5 down the stretch or something ridiculous like that.

Yeah, my bad. Well, in both years Manu was the guy coming into the playoffs.

[scanry]

IMO ranking wise, Tim is 5-15 all time. David is 30-50. Ice is probably 40-70. Manu and Tony are 70-100.

[DAF86]

IMO ranking wise, Tim is 5-15 all time. David is 30-50. Ice is probably 40-70. Manu and Tony are 70-100.

The fuck? Tim is top 7 at worst. The fuck is this shit about 15? :lol

Also, Robinson is criminally underrated for his pack of help. Everytime you see an impact stat Robinson is right up there.

Manu is definitely top 50. Tony is right up there too. SMH, if even Spur fans underrate their players.

[JakeCuenca]

The fuck? Tim is top 7 at worst. The fuck is this shit about 15? :lol

Also, Robinson is criminally underrated for his pack of help. Everytime you see an impact stat Robinson is right up there.

Manu is definitely top 50. Tony is right up there too. SMH, if even Spur fans underrate their players.

Tony is top 50. Manu is likely not.

[DAF86]

Tony is top 50. Manu is likely not.

Tony has better accolades on the NBA. Manu is clearly the better player.

[JakeCuenca]

Tony has better accolades on the NBA. Manu is clearly the better player.

Manu is not clearly the better player. Stop being a flaming homer.

[DAF86]

Manu is not clearly the better player. Stop being a flaming homer.

He is. Every relevant metric shows it. Stop being an ignorant motherfucker.

[JakeCuenca]

He is. Every relevant metric shows it. Stop being an ignorant motherfucker.


"relevant" metric ie the metric my favourite player has an advantage in?

Stop being a flaming homer.

[DAF86]

"relevant" metric ie the metric my favourite player has an advantage in?

Stop being a flaming homer.

No, literally EVERY metric that shows impact rather than raw stats got from playing and shooting more.

VORP: Manu-47 / Tony-26
BPM: Manu-4.9/Tony-0.8
DBPM: Manu-1.6/Tony- negative 0.8
OBPM: Manu-3.7/Tony-1.6
WS/48: Manu-.190/Tony-.142

It's really not close, tbh.

[OldMan88]

Manu’s one of the players you’d pick to take the final shot in game 7 of an nba finals game. That’s the essence of him as a competitor. That’s also what makes him a first ballot hall of fame player.

[ElNono]

who?

Although I don't necessarily disagree

[ElNono]

If you're even top 250 in the history of Basketball, you're a god damn hell of a player, tbh...

[JakeCuenca]

No, literally EVERY metric that shows impact rather than raw stats got from playing and shooting more.

VORP: Manu-47 / Tony-26
BPM: Manu-4.9/Tony-0.8
DBPM: Manu-1.6/Tony- negative 0.8
OBPM: Manu-3.7/Tony-1.6
WS/48: Manu-.190/Tony-.142

It's really not close, tbh.

I've already outlined the reasoning behind these numbers. It's systematic. Manu is not getting those numbers because he was never Kawhi Leonard/Chris Paul/ Lebron James kinda player..Those numbers are more indicative of how dominant he was a second unit player. Tony on the other hand is a PG that is systematically placed at position to "Create" a system.

Let's put it this way, The spurs was able to build a system around Tony Parkers ability to get into the basket. Make no mistake, the offense from 12-14 was built around Parkers ability to get into the lane. And while Duncan and Leonard were ultimately the better playoff players in both the 13-14 playoff, it was also a result of opposing teams decreasing driving lanes allowing for Leonard and Duncan to flourish.

No team could ever create an offensive system under an injure prone player. He was never good enough as one all kinda offense. He never reached that offensive dominant in order for teams to rely on him on a consistent basis.

[BillMc]

He's already surpassed Manu. He won a league MVP. You can't be that crazy to put Manu over a league MVP.

I'd probably take prime Manu over prime Nash. Nash was a product of a new system and was a sieve on defense.

[FrostKing]

If one thinks (as Sharpe does) Parker is superior than Manu then no-way Manu is in the Top 30. 3 teammates in the Top 30 is unheard of. Not even MJ-Pippen-Rodman qualifies.

[Spurtacular]

Shannon Sharpe is a Lebron ball licker. Manu is top 30 to anyone paying attention.

[Spurtacular]

Just out of my own curiosity, I'm going to name my personal top 30. Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bill Russell
11. LeBron
12. Malone
13. Stockton
14. Jason Kidd
15. Dirk
16. DRob
17. Wade
18. Garnett
19. KD
20. Iverson
21. Moses Malone
22. Ewing
23. Olajuwon
24. Barkley
25. Pippen
26. Nash
27. Ray Allen
28. Westbrook
29. Harden
30. Curry


All iconic players, all better all time than Manu.

Always amazes me that people put a 39 FG, poor team defense, under-sized player like Iverson among the greats. Yea, he was fun to watch; and he had 2-3 years that he was amazing even (at times). But he's not an all-time great.

[Daddy Long Dik]

he's definitely not a top 30 player of all-time. c'mon now son

[Since89]

IMO ranking wise, Tim is 5-15 all time. David is 30-50. Ice is probably 40-70. Manu and Tony are 70-100.
Tim is Top 5. David Robinson is top 20. Manu is top 50. Parker would probably make top 100.

[superbigtime]

Shannon Sharpe is a Lebron ball licker. Manu is top 30 to anyone paying attention.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

He's already surpassed Manu. He won a league MVP. You can't be that crazy to put Manu over a league MVP.

I ABSOLUTELY put Manu over Harden, even with league MVP. League MVP by definition is stat padding, among other things. They were better, more complete players, that should have won over Harden.

League MVP is a circus media nowadays - it doesn't mean anything. So that can never be your argument. You have no argument for Harden over Manu. You haven't shown anything yet.

[DAF86]

I've already outlined the reasoning behind these numbers. It's systematic. Manu is not getting those numbers because he was never Kawhi Leonard/Chris Paul/ Lebron James kinda player..Those numbers are more indicative of how dominant he was a second unit player. Tony on the other hand is a PG that is systematically placed at position to "Create" a system.

Let's put it this way, The spurs was able to build a system around Tony Parkers ability to get into the basket. Make no mistake, the offense from 12-14 was built around Parkers ability to get into the lane. And while Duncan and Leonard were ultimately the better playoff players in both the 13-14 playoff, it was also a result of opposing teams decreasing driving lanes allowing for Leonard and Duncan to flourish.

No team could ever create an offensive system under an injure prone player. He was never good enough as one all kinda offense. He never reached that offensive dominant in order for teams to rely on him on a consistent basis.

Except the Spurs did have in many seasons offenses around Manu being the number one guy. Try again, with better arguments.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

No, literally EVERY metric that shows impact rather than raw stats got from playing and shooting more.

VORP: Manu-47 / Tony-26
BPM: Manu-4.9/Tony-0.8
DBPM: Manu-1.6/Tony- negative 0.8
OBPM: Manu-3.7/Tony-1.6
WS/48: Manu-.190/Tony-.142

It's really not close, tbh.

Please stop it. You are manhandling these bitches now :)

[Phenomanul]

Tony has better accolades on the NBA. Manu is clearly the better player.

You do realize that JakeCuenca is apalisoc_9's alt...? After he was perma-banned he created that account.

In other words... he's trolling... horribly of course.

[JakeCuenca]

Except the Spurs did have in many seasons offenses around Manu being the number one guy. Try again, with better arguments.

False.

[Phenomanul]

No, literally EVERY metric that shows impact rather than raw stats got from playing and shooting more.

VORP: Manu-47 / Tony-26
BPM: Manu-4.9/Tony-0.8
DBPM: Manu-1.6/Tony- negative 0.8
OBPM: Manu-3.7/Tony-1.6
WS/48: Manu-.190/Tony-.142

It's really not close, tbh.


Manu's career PER stands at 20.2.
Tony's career PER stands at 18.3.

During Manu's most prolific period (an 8 year span from 2004 - 2012) his PER averaged 23.0
Tony's best PER over any equivalent 8 year span was: 20.9

[DAF86]

You do realize that JakeCuenca is apalisoc_9's alt...? After he was perma-banned he created that account.

In other words... he's trolling... horribly of course.

It's hard to catch up with the open floodgates.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

You can't debate Manu being a Hall of Fame player. But I think the Top-30 argument is debatable, depending on your criteria for determining that status.

To me he is top 30. But to a football talking head, I can understand his confusion. He's reading a stat sheet. He'd probably rank Dwight Howard over Manu.

[cd98]

Always amazes me that people put a 39 FG, poor team defense, under-sized player like Iverson among the greats. Yea, he was fun to watch; and he had 2-3 years that he was amazing even (at times). But he's not an all-time great.

Like Manu brought the Euro Step, AI perfected and popularized the cross over step back pull up. People underrate this guy so much, it's crazy. He was under 6 feet tall. He did more than a few amazing plays, he led the league in scoring like 4 times. He carried a team of no ones to the NBA finals and took a game from a hugely dominant Laker team. And he won an MVP. My goodness, it just amazes me that people think this guy had 2-3 good seasons. He was an 11 time all star and made 3 all NBA first teams and 3 all NBA second teams. The first 10 years of his career, he was dominant. He didn't tail off until he went to Denver. Who'd of thought he and Melo could co-exist?

[Spurtacular]

Like Manu brought the Euro Step, AI perfected and popularized the cross over step back pull up. People underrate this guy so much, it's crazy. He was under 6 feet tall. He did more than a few amazing plays, he led the league in scoring like 4 times. He carried a team of no ones to the NBA finals and took a game from a hugely dominant Laker team. And he won an MVP. My goodness, it just amazes me that people think this guy had 2-3 good seasons. He was an 11 time all star and made 3 all NBA first teams and 3 all NBA second teams. The first 10 years of his career, he was dominant. He didn't tail off until he went to Denver. Who'd of thought he and Melo could co-exist?

11 time all star at a time when pizzazz and 20 ppg regardless of anything else was punching the card, and at a time when he could take 25 shots a game. GTFO LMAO

[cd98]

11 time all star at a time when pizzazz and 20 ppg regardless of anything else was punching the card, and at a time when he could take 25 shots a game. GTFO LMAO

Ask Bruce Bowen if AI is a great basketball player.

[Chris Fall]

There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horseshit of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a shit conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As competitors, very much similar types.

As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.

Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.

[daslicer]

11 time all star at a time when pizzazz and 20 ppg regardless of anything else was punching the card, and at a time when he could take 25 shots a game. GTFO LMAO

:lol that still makes you an all-star today.

[ginobilized]

Better question is where does Shannon Sharpe rank in all-time sports broadcasters?
Top 3,000?

[DAF86]

There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horseshit of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a shit conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As competitors, very much similar types.

As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.

Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.

Tell me what made Iverson a better player than Manu.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horseshit of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a shit conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As competitors, very much similar types.

As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.

Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.

What a total fucking piece of garbage. So many things wrong.

I don't even know where to start. I won't.

[lefty]

But Thkip

[Spurtacular]

:lol that still makes you an all-star today.

It means the metric doesn't mean shit. Manu made two all-star teams to Iverson's eleven. Manu is better than Iverson; and it's not even close.

[Spurtacular]

Better question is where does Shannon Sharpe rank in all-time sports broadcasters?
Top 3,000?

Currently? Probably not. Dunno if he should even be doing high school croquet games in Northern Alaska.

[Since89]

There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horseshit of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a shit conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As competitors, very much similar types.

As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.

Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.

Agree on the international thing. But he is a way better player than Porter and Detlef. No comment on AI.

[Spurtacular]

You can't debate Manu being a Hall of Fame player. But I think the Top-30 argument is debatable, depending on your criteria for determining that status.

To me he is top 30. But to a football talking head, I can understand his confusion. He's reading a stat sheet. He'd probably rank Dwight Howard over Manu.

NFL and NBA don't have all that much overlap. And even during the NFL season, NFL practices are during the day and NBA games at night. Shannon Sharpe has seen pretty much as much NBA as the next person. He's just an idiot.

[Chris Fall]

Tell me what made Iverson a better player than Manu.

He could carry a team offensively for an entire season with absolute shit around him. That’s proven. Not just for a stretch in a game. Not just for a game. Not for a handful of games. An entire season. With a poor supporting cast and opposing team defenses game planning to stop him and only him. He was a 5’11, 165 pound version of Shaq in that regard. Teams would play zone against AI teams just to try to stop him from getting in the lane, with multiple defenders shading off their man just to help. In the early 2000s era of the NBA, it was Shaq and AI who were completely unguardable one-on-one players. With Shaq it was size and strength and his athleticism for that size. With AI it was speed and agility and handle. You couldn’t guard them with one guy.

Thats what made Iverson a better player than Manu. I love Manu. But if you can’t see that opinions on these boards are a bit skewed by fans with emotional ties and nostalgia attached to Manu, then no matter what response I give, it won’t change your opinion. That’s fine. But it’s not unreasonable to believe AI was the better player than Manu. It’s actually more unreasonable to think otherwise.

[sasaint]

If I were a GM I would trade AI for Manu straight up.

After his retirement Manu was at PRACTICE!

[sasaint]

You can't debate Manu being a Hall of Fame player. But I think the Top-30 argument is debatable, depending on your criteria for determining that status.

To me he is top 30. But to a football talking head, I can understand his confusion. He's reading a stat sheet. He'd probably rank Dwight Howard over Manu.

Spot on!

[BSfromTX]

Unfortunately, most NBA fans equate greatness with scoring average and what is being sold. I watch kids today and they mostly play the AI, Carmelo, Kawhi iso game leaving the rest of their team pretty much useless. Manus basketball mind is on level with Bird, Jordan, magic, and Timmy. Iversons game was simple compared to Manu. Manu made guys like Blair relevant and dangerous. It’s hard to pick very many guards that ran the p n r as well as Manu, or saw passes that most would think impossible, or block guys like Durant, Wade, and Garnett at the rim. Outside of scoring on high volume shooting, Iverson offered very little other than steals

[lefty]

This nigga has olajuwon at 23 Spurmsfans :lmao
Hakeem is the GOAT center imo

[TimmyBuckets]

Wade>Manu>AI

[DAF86]

He could carry a team offensively for an entire season with absolute shit around him. That’s proven. Not just for a stretch in a game. Not just for a game. Not for a handful of games. An entire season. With a poor supporting cast and opposing team defenses game planning to stop him and only him. He was a 5’11, 165 pound version of Shaq in that regard. Teams would play zone against AI teams just to try to stop him from getting in the lane, with multiple defenders shading off their man just to help. In the early 2000s era of the NBA, it was Shaq and AI who were completely unguardable one-on-one players. With Shaq it was size and strength and his athleticism for that size. With AI it was speed and agility and handle. You couldn’t guard them with one guy.

Thats what made Iverson a better player than Manu. I love Manu. But if you can’t see that opinions on these boards are a bit skewed by fans with emotional ties and nostalgia attached to Manu, then no matter what response I give, it won’t change your opinion. That’s fine. But it’s not unreasonable to believe AI was the better player than Manu. It’s actually more unreasonable to think otherwise.

Manu has also proven being able to carry offensively a team for an entire season, but instead of doing it by averaging 30 ppg on 27 shot, he did it his way: by making people around him better.

The supporting cast argument with Iverson doesn't fly either. On philadelphia he had the absolute perfect set of players to suit him. He was never a player that was able to share touches. That's why he didn't work with Webber and Carmelo, that's also why Philadelphia had to get rid of Stackhouse when AI got there.

How do you think that Iverson lead team would have done against Argentina's lead Manu? What team would have won on a playoffs series? If a Manu lead team would have beaten an Iverson lead team on the playoffs, would you still be thinking Iverson is better than Manu?

I don't care if the opinion of other people is skewed here, all I can do is talk for myself. And I think Manu is a clearly better player than Iverson not for some super subjective reason, but because being a hardcore fan of both I got to see them, in full detail, play throughout the years and every relevant metric out there supports what my eye test tell me: that Manu is a clearly superior player to Iverson, and the only reason most NBA fans think otherwise is becuase they never got to see Manu lead a team for an extended period of time.

[Harry Callahan]

My week was saddened by Manu calling it a career. I had the priviledge of seeing hundreds of games and all of his games the last 2-3 years.

I don't know if he is top 30 or top 75 or top 150. He had something extra (like Timmy) that set him apart. I'm amazed he ended up being the last of the Big 3 to leave.

I love the Spurs - I always will. But I'm afraid the franchise will never be able to capture what just concluded over the last 2 years with 21, 20 and 9 going away.

I'm a spoiled Spurs fan. I will not apologize.

[Harry Callahan]

Also, why does the Urban Community always denigrate the Spurs with the stupid "boring" remark. I think winning around 70% of your games and an NBA title every fourth year over the past 20 year is a pretty exciting exercise.

"Mumbles" Sharpe is the second best football player in his own house growing up. Sterling was smart enough to play well and be quiet. Cris Carter is a pretty rotten human being overall given his history of drug and alcohol abuse. CTE seems to be in his immediate and long term future.

[Harry Callahan]

I can't stand Skip Bayless, but the Spurs homer act is still pretty funny. He is the puppet master when it comes to controlling his co-hosts on either Fox or ESPN.

[Daddy Long Dik]

You don’t mean that son.

[J_Paco]

There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horseshit of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a shit conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As competitors, very much similar types.

As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.

Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.

Manu is top 50, maybe (not in my mind), but definitely top 100 all - time. Manu coming off the bench a majority of career and having his minutes limited throughout hurt his case.

Obviously, had he played a bigger role instead of being the "third wheel" throughout chunks of his NBA career, then no one would question his placement on any list.

Was he as talented as almost any top 30 player (excluding top 10), yes, but his (raw) career numbers and accomplishments don't bare that out. His advanced metrics give you a better idea of his impact and talent level.

I would place him anywhere between 50 - 65 and right outside the top 10 SG's ever based on his NBA career.

[Canyonero]

This dude should check himself for CTE fwiw

[rascal]

Manu rode Duncan's coat tails. Much of his so called NBA accomplishments listed in this thread are team accomplishments (success tied directly to Duncan).

[rascal]

He could carry a team offensively for an entire season with absolute shit around him. That’s proven. Not just for a stretch in a game. Not just for a game. Not for a handful of games. An entire season. With a poor supporting cast and opposing team defenses game planning to stop him and only him. He was a 5’11, 165 pound version of Shaq in that regard. Teams would play zone against AI teams just to try to stop him from getting in the lane, with multiple defenders shading off their man just to help. In the early 2000s era of the NBA, it was Shaq and AI who were completely unguardable one-on-one players. With Shaq it was size and strength and his athleticism for that size. With AI it was speed and agility and handle. You couldn’t guard them with one guy.

Thats what made Iverson a better player than Manu. I love Manu. But if you can’t see that opinions on these boards are a bit skewed by fans with emotional ties and nostalgia attached to Manu, then no matter what response I give, it won’t change your opinion. That’s fine. But it’s not unreasonable to believe AI was the better player than Manu. It’s actually more unreasonable to think otherwise.

Agree, you swap Manu and AI. Manu wins no titles and gets no where near the Hall of Fame.

[rascal]

Unfortunately, most NBA fans equate greatness with scoring average and what is being sold. I watch kids today and they mostly play the AI, Carmelo, Kawhi iso game leaving the rest of their team pretty much useless. Manus basketball mind is on level with Bird, Jordan, magic, and Timmy. Iversons game was simple compared to Manu. Manu made guys like Blair relevant and dangerous. It’s hard to pick very many guards that ran the p n r as well as Manu, or saw passes that most would think impossible, or block guys like Durant, Wade, and Garnett at the rim. Outside of scoring on high volume shooting, Iverson offered very little other than steals

Scoring is the most important stat in basketball.

[Since89]

Manu rode Duncan's coat tails. Much of his so called NBA accomplishments listed in this thread are team accomplishments (success tied directly to Duncan).

It was always Tim Duncan.

[shaq_h8ter]

"Argies gonna Argie" :lol Realizing Manu was a better basketball player than Iverson has nothing to do with nationalities you xenophibic mofo. Tell me one fucking thing Iverson was better than Manu at, other than speed. Just one fucking thing.

Practice!

:P

[daslicer]

Manu rode Duncan's coat tails. Much of his so called NBA accomplishments listed in this thread are team accomplishments (success tied directly to Duncan).

That's pretty much how I feel.

[DAF86]

That's pretty much how I feel.

But that's just because you are a bitter hating faggot, tbh.

[daslicer]

But that's just because you are a bitter hating faggot, tbh.

:lol Wow Manutard is triggered. Manutard I'm not a delusional nutcase like you when it comes to overvaluing Manu. Try posting your bs on realgm, reddit, and see how many people agree with you that Manu is a top 5 SG.

[DAF86]

:lol Wow Manutard is triggered. Manutard I'm not a delusional nutcase like you when it comes to overvaluing Manu. Try posting your bs on realgm, reddit, and see how many people agree with you that Manu is a top 5 SG.

I can only tolerate a certain amount of faggotry, and you fulfil almost the entire quota, tbh.

[lefty]

DAF shitting on Manu haters tbh :lol

[daslicer]

DAF shitting on Manu haters tbh :lol

:lol I know you are still butt hurt about the last exchange we had.

[daslicer]

I can only tolerate a certain amount of faggotry, and you fulfil almost the entire quota, tbh.

:lol Manutard still triggered considering you edited your post several minutes ago. What a poorly edited post since your misspelled fulfill. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't spell a simple word since you are Manutard and English is your second language.

[DAF86]

:lol Manutard still triggered considering you edited your post several minutes ago. What a poorly edited post since your misspelled fulfill. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't spell a simple word since you are Manutard and English is your second language.

http://grammarist.com/spelling/fulfil-fulfill/

Ignorant bitter faggot. :lol

Stay on your level son. Last warning.

[daslicer]

http://grammarist.com/spelling/fulfil-fulfill/

Ignorant bitter faggot. :lol

Stay on your level son. Last warning.

:lol Come on Manutard you gotta try harder than that. You spelled fulfill the foreign way which proves again you are a dumb foreigner.

[DAF86]

:lol Manutard still triggered considering you edited your post several minutes ago. What a poorly edited post since your misspelled fulfill. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't spell a simple word since you are Manutard and English is your second language.


:lol Come on Manutard you gotta try harder than that. You spelled fulfill the foreign way which proves again you are a dumb foreigner.

Backpedalling like the bitch you are. :lol

Again son, lay low.

[daslicer]

Backpedalling like the bitch you are. :lol

Again son, lay low.

:lol Manutard like always coming up with bs excuses. Keep it coming Manutard.

[Pocho La Pantera]

:lol Come on Manutard you gotta try harder than that. You spelled fulfill the foreign way which proves again you are a dumb foreigner.Is it a sin being a foreigner? That´s new.

[DAF86]

:lol Manutard like always coming up with bs excuses. Keep it coming Manutard.

I didn't come up with any excuse, you dumb retarded fuck. "Fulfil" is a perfectly spelled word of the English language. It is not my problem that you weren't educated enough to knew that.

[JakeCuenca]

Shannon Sharp.

[Chinook]

I didn't come up with any excuse, you dumb retarded fuck. "Fulfil" is a perfectly spelled word of the English language. It is not my problem that you weren't educated enough to knew that.

Bruh, the last couple of times you've replied in this thread, it's given me a quote notification. Are you doing that on purpose, or is this site just acting wonky?

[lefty]

:lol I know you are still butt hurt about the last exchange we had.

Impossible since I won

[daslicer]

I didn't come up with any excuse, you dumb retarded fuck. "Fulfil" is a perfectly spelled word of the English language. It is not my problem that you weren't educated enough to knew that.

Keep telling yourself that Manutard. Nobody goes by your foreign spelling in the States.

[DAF86]

Bruh, the last couple of times you've replied in this thread, it's given me a quote notification. Are you doing that on purpose, or is this site just acting wonky?

I think it is because I multi-quoted a post from you here to another thread.

[DAF86]

Keep telling yourself that Manutard. Nobody goes by your foreign spelling in the States.

It is not me who says it son, it is English ortography. :lol

[Robz4000]

Bruh, the last couple of times you've replied in this thread, it's given me a quote notification. Are you doing that on purpose, or is this site just acting wonky?

Same here

[diego]

:lol Come on Manutard you gotta try harder than that. You spelled fulfill the foreign way which proves again you are a dumb foreigner.

yeah, nothing proves intelligence, smarts, and place of birth like knowing less languages than the person you are speaking to.

Im surprised you found the time in your busy schedule to talk down to everyone, you certainly werent around when half the NBA players/media as well as several national, non nba outlets praised manu as a revolutionary, generational talent. If you want Ill give you the links, you can check the grammar and find out how many are undercover foreign spies

[Vic Petro]

Shannon Sharpe’s opinion on the NBA is worth less than nothing.

Manu rode Duncan’s coattails to the extent everyone road Duncan’s coattails. He was a great NBA SG and will be a cinch hall of famer. Any argument to the contrary is just trolling.

[daslicer]

It is not me who says it son, it is English ortography. :lol

Keep telling yourself that Manutard. Nobody goes by your foreign spelling in the States.

[DAF86]

Keep telling yourself that Manutard. Nobody goes by your foreign spelling in the States.

Next time you try to be a smartass by being a nazi grammar to people who have English as their second language, try to make sure you won't make a fool of yourself by correcting something that is actually correct.

I can only imagine the level of embarrassment you felt when you realized a dirty foreigner knew more about English ortography than you.

[Chinook]

No seriously. timvp or Kori Ellis can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

[Robz4000]

No seriously. timvp or Kori Ellis can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

[DAF86]

No seriously. timvp or Kori Ellis can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

:lol

We need the "disable multi-quotes" option back.

I'm gonna go disable them manually now to see if it stops.

[DAF86]

Problem should be fixed now.

[DMC]

Crap, I felt popular for a while.

[BillMc]

No seriously. timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) or Kori Ellis (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6) can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

[timvp]

No seriously. timvp or Kori Ellis can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

:lol That's weird that you're getting notifications. I'll look into it.

For the record, DAF86, you can deselect multi quotes by clicking on Go Advanced and then clicking on the deselect option, tbh.

[DAF86]

:lol That's weird that you're getting notifications. I'll look into it.

For the record, DAF86, you can deselect multi quotes by clicking on Go Advanced and then clicking on the deselect option, tbh.

I did that and couldn't find it. I just went an deselected the quotes manually.

Edit: the fuck? The quotes are back. I give up, tbh. :lol

[Chinook]

Maybe we can just close this thread and move on? It's not like there was good discussion, and I think the current problem is isolated to quotes on this topic.

[DAF86]

Maybe we can just close this thread and move on? It's not like there was good discussion, and I think the current problem is isolated to quotes on this topic.

I promise not to comment on this thread again son. At least not quoting. :lol

[Kori Ellis]

No seriously. timvp or Kori Ellis can we do something about these notifications? DAF and slice can argue til the cows come home for all I care. I just don't need to keep getting the play-by-play.

Go to your account page, then "General Settings" under "My Account." Under "Messaging & Notification" on the General Settings page, make sure "Default Thread Subscription Mode" is set to "Do not subscribe."

[TheCerebral1]

If Dennis Rodman is a hall of famer, so is Manu Ginobili, plain and simple. Different skill sets providing different value to a winning team.

[rascal]

:lol Manutard still triggered considering you edited your post several minutes ago. What a poorly edited post since your misspelled fulfill. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't spell a simple word since you are Manutard and English is your second language.

A sixth man top 5 sg of all time. lol

[Since89]

A sixth man top 5 sg of all time. lol

Head to head Manu is def top 5. Kobe and Jordan are the only ones I can say would get the better of him. He can hang or outplay any other SG. Ranking him top five based on accolades and stats is just foolish, though. But I really cant think of 5 great shooting guards.
Jordan
Kobe
Wade?
??
??

[SpursDynasty85]

Head to head Manu is def top 5. Kobe and Jordan are the only ones I can say would get the better of him. He can hang or outplay any other SG. Ranking him top five based on accolades and stats is just foolish, though. But I really cant think of 5 great shooting guards.
Jordan
Kobe
Wade?
??
??

Jordan, Kobe, Wade are consensus among most lists. It gets grayer after this but Jerry West and Drexler is usually named around 4 and 5. After this, it's a combination of AI, TMac, Gervin, Allen, Miller, Drexler, Carter. Manu is usually out of the top 10.

[J_Paco]

Head to head Manu is def top 5. Kobe and Jordan are the only ones I can say would get the better of him. He can hang or outplay any other SG. Ranking him top five based on accolades and stats is just foolish, though. But I really cant think of 5 great shooting guards.
Jordan
Kobe
Wade?
??
??

Clyde Drexeler, Mitch Richmond, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, James Harden & George Gervin were all as talented or more accomplished (in the NBA) than Manu.

Manu sacrificed the most statistically of the "Big 3," but that was apart of his "team first" attitude and hunger to win. He'll likely always be "overvalued" by many in the Spurs community since we saw his magic first hand. I think most outside the fanbase will place him in a more realistic context of an all star caliber player, who had some elite skills but played a reduced role to better win games/championships.

[Since89]

Jordan, Kobe, Wade are consensus among most lists. It gets grayer after this but Jerry West and Drexler is usually named around 4 and 5. After this, it's a combination of AI, TMac, Gervin, Allen, Miller, Drexler, Carter. Manu is usually out of the top 10.

AI was good at chucking. Amazing scorer. Not much else.
Drexler had to look at the ball while dribbling and had no jump shot.
I forgot all about TMAC but I always thought of him as a sf. Shame bout his injuries. He was amazing.
Carter? Vince Carter? Not better than Manu.
Miller? Reggie Miller? LoL come on.
West may have been more decorated but how many of us really think he'd be that great in this era.
Allen? Ray Allen? Great scorer not much else.
Gervin? I started watching basketball 87. So he was before my time.
Based on accolades he is ahead.
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Wade
TMAC If a true sg but he wasnt.
Gervin
Manu is just as good as all the others and can hang with any sg in history.
Im no Manu fanboy. 06 Mavs and 2013. He gave the championship away. He literally handed it to the Heat. So he is not without faults.

[SpursDynasty85]

AI was good at chucking. Amazing scorer. Not much else.
Drexler had to look at the ball while dribbling and had no jump shot.
I forgot all about TMAC but I always thought of him as a sf. Shame bout his injuries. He was amazing.
Carter? Vince Carter? Not better than Manu.
Miller? Reggie Miller? LoL come on.
West may have been more decorated but how many of us really think he'd be that great in this era.
Allen? Ray Allen? Great scorer not much else.
Gervin? I started watching basketball 87. So he was before my time.
Based on accolades he is ahead.
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Wade
TMAC If a true sg but he wasnt.
Gervin
Manu is just as good as all the others and can hang with any sg in history.
Im no Manu fanboy. 06 Mavs and 2013. He gave the championship away. He literally handed it to the Heat. So he is not without faults.

It's a tough thing to put a list of sgs. I think most on at least Spurstalk agree that for one playoff series, Manu is at least top 5 but you have to put in longevity and durability. I think we can admit Manu playing 35 mpg the way he did against NBA Big bodies might've gotten injured easily.

I agree McGrady to me was a SF but I guess in Magic he was listed as a SG. Klay Thompson and Harden, will be coming into the conversation soon if not already. Reggie Miller was clutch time and a hound off the ball, not so much on it. Ray Allen in his early Bucks and Super Sonic days was an all around scorer, playmaker, and passer and then turned into a great off ball talent on the Celtics. It's a close call I have no problem with someone putting Manu into the top 5 but most on Spurstalk dismiss guys like AI, Ray Allen, Miller, Gervin, etc.. as if Manu craps all over them. Which is not the case any of these guys could outperform the other on any given night I'm sure.

[rascal]

It's a tough thing to put a list of sgs. I think most on at least Spurstalk agree that for one playoff series, Manu is at least top 5 but you have to put in longevity and durability. I think we can admit Manu playing 35 mpg the way he did against NBA Big bodies might've gotten injured easily.

I agree McGrady to me was a SF but I guess in Magic he was listed as a SG. Klay Thompson and Harden, will be coming into the conversation soon if not already. Reggie Miller was clutch time and a hound off the ball, not so much on it. Ray Allen in his early Bucks and Super Sonic days was an all around scorer, playmaker, and passer and then turned into a great off ball talent on the Celtics. It's a close call I have no problem with someone putting Manu into the top 5 but most on Spurstalk dismiss guys like AI, Ray Allen, Miller, Gervin, etc.. as if Manu craps all over them. Which is not the case any of these guys could outperform the other on any given night I'm sure.

Gervin was far better than Manu. Gervin carried the Spurs deep into the playoffs in the 1970s and 1980s. Manu was not good enough to carry a team as its best player. Many young Spur fans dismiss Gervin because they never saw him play.

[Dhbsr555]

Manu was better harden was said saying Manu in his prime was bettter than him put Manu on a bad team he scoring 25-28 a night easy

[Dhbsr555]

He scored 17 a night on about 25 minutes if he was playing 36 minutes he’s putting up big numbers

[JeffDuncan]

I don't get into the arguments about who was best, because they played on different teams, at different times, against different competition, and even under different rules, and different interpretations of the same rules. Like how the foul calling has changed this year. It isn't possible to know.

What I do know about Manu is that he was fun to watch, and I always perked up when he came in.

Manu was absolutely among the elite among "players to watch."

[Bballplaya]

Top 75 for sure.

Top 5 competitor absolutely.