Uncle Dennis Finally Talks! “They didn’t believe Kawhi couldn’t play and that caused a lack of trust"

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Which names could they be more than Pop, RC, Spurs' owners, Kawhi's managers and maybe one or two Spurs players?

I doubt it’s anything to do with Pop but wouldn’tbe surprised if it’s Timmy and David Robinson playing a role. Tim was involved with the team a lot last season in practices and he wouldn’t take any bullshit.

[UZER]

Of course it was bitchmade and unprofessional. I have no sympathy for the guy, and reminds me when Melo wanted out of Denver back in the day because he wanted to play in New York.

The point is that the Spurs aren't riding a high horse anymore, and in this league, the 'norm' is that you have to suck up to the stars, especially if you're on a small market. You have to guarantee minutes, touches, etc. I also don't think it sounds entirely hollow that there was disagreement and lack of trust between Kawhi and some people in the team, something MoSpur and apparently timvp also mention, so then the question is, what happened with those people? Is something gonna be done about it, or we're stuck with these characters?




I actually think it's fairly alarming that if left to their own capacity, they would've lost basically 4 championship rings and all the money and history that came with it. Maybe San Antonio is a tough sell, but that's partly the point too. When you have guys like that fall into your lap, or you have the advantage of having brought them in, won a championship with the team, you would think there would be some care in handling situations like these, instead of having the coach talk how that player is not a leader, or an iconic player coming out and talking about Kawhi's injury like it was no big deal.

I'm also intrigued about the comments on acrimony between Kawhi and his camp and some people in the organization. Apparently we can't know who that people are, but what happened to them?

Nono these two posts are exactly what I’ve been trying to say for awhile. You just say it 10x better than me. :lol

[JeffDuncan]

This is not correct at all, and shows a complete lack of understanding how NBA contracts operate. When the player signs on an NBA contract, he waives a number of rights, including the secrecy rule. ...

That is not correct at all, and shows a lack of understanding of how the law operates. No person can lose rights from the mere fact of signing a contract for employment. Nor can any person lose rights because some kind of understanding has been reached between two entities like an owners' association and a players' union.

It's a little more complicated. For that CBA understanding to have any effect, it has to be implemented through individual player consent, like I mentioned earlier. Apparently the player contract signings include the signing of consent forms, that allow the release of certain information to the specified parties for reasonable purposes.

Just having that language in the CBA accomplishes nothing, legally, except it would serve as a guide for creating the consent forms.


He also must submit to team doctors for periodic fitness assessments. ...

Any employer can require an employee, or prospective employee, to submit to a reasonable physical exam as a condition of employment. There is generally the requirement that the employer has to pay for it.

But no, the player does not have to submit to the exam. His refusal, however, would probably mean he would no longer be employed.


Those doctors report directly to the team and league.

Not exactly. The doctors are allowed to release certain information, to certain parties, as stated on the consent form.

Nothing in the NBA CBA alters, or can alter, the fundamental doctor-patient relationship.


In cases where the team and player disagree about his fitness to play, ...

Never an issue with Kawhi. A disorder in a tendon or muscle does not per se raise a question of fitness the way something like a heart condition would. LaMarcus Aldridge might be a player subject to fitness assessment, since he has a known heart condition, Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome.

That "fitness-to-play" part of the CBA is about fundamental health. Notice that it specifically mentions "elevated risk of death" and also specifically mentions heart conditions and blood clots. "Cardiovascular abnormalities."

[ElNono]

That is not correct at all, and shows a lack of understanding of how the law operates. No person can lose rights from the mere fact of signing a contract for employment. Nor can any person lose rights because some kind of understanding has been reached between two entities like an owners' association and a players' union.

Try me. You assertion is incorrect as a matter of law. Individuals waive rights under contracts all the time, not just for employment. Including that waiver you signed to force arbitration over a jury trial in your cellphone contract. Nobody forced you to sign that contract, you entered into that agreement in mutual consent.

Don't take my word for it, let's call the lawyers. spurraider21, vy65, FromWayDowntown...


It's a little more complicated. For that CBA understanding to have any effect, it has to be implemented through individual player consent, like I mentioned earlier. Apparently the player contract signings include the signing of consent forms, that allow the release of certain information to the specified parties for reasonable purposes.

Any employer can require an employee, or prospective employee, to submit to a reasonable physical exam as a condition of employment. There is generally the requirement that the employer has to pay for it.

But no, the player does not have to submit to the exam. His refusal, however, would probably mean he would no longer be employed.

He does if under contract, which is the whole point. If he refuses, it would be a breach of contract, which terminates his employment with the league. The team keeps the rights to the player, so if he wants to ever play in the league again, he has to be waived or traded by the team holding the rights.

That is why the CBA has carved out a process where this determination can be made in a non-confrontational manner.


Not exactly. The doctors are allowed to release certain information, to certain parties, as stated on the consent form.

Nothing in the NBA CBA alters, or can alter, the fundamental doctor-patient relationship.

Except it does if the player waived that right to confidentiality, which you're admitting that they do as part of signing a contract with the league. Nice backpedal.


Never an issue with Kawhi. A disorder in a tendon or muscle does not per se raise a question of fitness the way something like a heart condition would. LaMarcus Aldridge might be a player subject to fitness assessment, since he has a known heart condition, Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome.

That "fitness-to-play" part of the CBA is about fundamental health. Notice that it specifically mentions "elevated risk of death" and also specifically mentions heart conditions and blood clots. "Cardiovascular abnormalities."

The Fitness to Play provision of the CBA encompasses any claim where there are disagreements between the parties, period. Notice it also mentions "Other areas as issues arise".


But let's make this even more clear, so you're not confused anymore:

- This is a copy of the Uniform Player Contract: http://blog.techprognosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/NBA_Constitution.pdf

- As referenced in the CBA: http://3c90sm37lsaecdwtr32v9qof-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2017-NBA-NBPA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement.pdf

Section 7: Physical Condition.

(a) The Player agrees to report at the time and place fixed by the Team in good physical condition and to keep himself throughout each NBA Season in good physical condition.

(b) If the Player, in the judgment of the Team’s physician, is not in good physical condition at the date of his first scheduled game for the Team, or if, at the beginning of or during any Season, he fails to remain in good physical condition (unless such condition results directly from an injury sustained by the Player as a direct result of participating in any basketball practice or game played for the Team during such Season), so as to render the Player, in the judgment of the Team’s physician, unfit to play skilled basketball, the Team shall have the right to suspend such Player until such time as, in the judgment of the Team’s physician, the Player is in sufficiently good physical condition to play skilled basketball. In the event of such suspension, the Base Compensation payable to the Player for any Season during such suspension shall be reduced in the same proportion as the length of the period during which, in the judgment of the Team’s physician, the Player is unfit to play skilled basketball, bears to the length of such Season. Nothing in this subparagraph shall authorize the Team to suspend the Player solely because the Player is injured or ill.

(c) If, during the term of this Contract, the Player is injured as a direct result of participating in any basketball practice or game played for the Team, the Team will pay the Player’s reasonable hospitalization and medical expenses (including doctor’s bills), provided that the hospital and doctor are selected by the Team, and provided further that the Team shall be obligated to pay only those expenses incurred as a direct result of medical treatment caused solely by and relating directly to the injury sustained by the Player. Subject to the provisions set forth in Exhibit 3, if in the judgment of the Team’s physician, the Player’s injuries resulted directly from playing for the Team and render him unfit to play skilled basketball, then, so long as such unfitness continues, but in no event after the Player has received his full Base Compensation for the Season in which the injury was sustained, the Team shall pay to the Player the Base Compensation prescribed in Exhibit 1 to this Contract for such Season. The Team’s obligations hereunder shall be reduced by (i) any workers’ compensation benefits, which, to the extent permitted by law, the Player hereby assigns to the Team, and (ii) any insurance provided for by the Team whether paid or payable to the Player.

(d) The Player agrees to provide to the Team’s coach, trainer, or physician prompt notice of any injury, illness, or medical condition suffered by him that is likely to affect adversely the Player’s ability to render the services required under this Contract, including the time, place, cause, and nature of such injury, illness, or condition.

(e) Should the Player suffer an injury, illness, or medical condition, he will submit himself to a medical examination, appropriate medical treatment by a physician designated by the Team, and such rehabilitation activities as such physician may specify. Such examination when made at the request of the Team shall be at its expense, unless made necessary by some act or conduct of the Player contrary to the terms of this Contract.

(f) The Player agrees (i) to submit to a physical examination at the commencement and conclusion of each Contract year hereunder, and at such other times as reasonably determined by the Team to be medically necessary, and (ii) at the commencement of this Contract, and upon the request of the Team, to provide a complete prior medical history.

(g) The Player agrees to supply complete and truthful information in connection with any medical examinations or requests for medical information authorized by this Contract.

(h) A Player who consults a physician other than a physician designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation to the Team and shall authorize and direct such other physician to provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball.

(i) If and to the extent necessary to enable or facilitate the disclosure of medical information as provided for by this Contract or Article XXII of the CBA, the Player shall execute such individual authorization(s) as may be requested by the Team or as may be required by health care providers who examine or treat the Player.


Is that clear enough? Do you understand now the role of the Team and Team doctors in regards to the player's fitness and injury management?

[ElNono]

You were wrong. It's ok, it happens...

[benefactor]

Nono facing up...one fake then high off the glass

[BillMc]

The Spurs paid $20 million for his rehab and Pop said publicly many times 'he'll play when he's ready.' As soon as he was 'fine to play' he and his Uncle demanded a trade to the Lakers. RC said at first sorry you're under contract, but eventually decided he was 'gone' and decided to move on. He ripped the Spurs off anyway you cut it. Never thought I'd be rooting for GSW, but you can bet I am. 'A class act' my ass.

[JeffDuncan]

Try me. You assertion is incorrect as a matter of law. ...

My assertion is absolutely correct under the law, spunky.


Individuals waive rights under contracts all the time, ...

Medical information is special, you fool. It concerns the doctor-patient relationship, which is special, the same way that lawyer-client privilege is special.

Does your cellphone company require you to submit to a physical before they will provide you with cellphone service? Some things are ordinary, and some are special.


If he refuses, it would be a breach of contract, which terminates his employment with the league. ...

You didn't understand anything I wrote earlier, did you? Or do you just not read well? Look at what I wrote: "His refusal, however, would probably mean he would no longer be employed."

It has the same meaning as what you wrote. You're arguing with what I wrote by saying the same thing in different words. That's kind of odd, guy.


Except it does if the player waived that right to confidentiality, which you're admitting that they do as part of signing a contract with the league. Nice backpedal.

That was not a backpedal, spunky. It's exactly the same thing I wrote earlier. You just don't know enough to understand all this.


The Fitness to Play provision of the CBA encompasses any claim where there are disagreements between the parties, period. ...

You are totally mistaken, period. It applies only to what it states. Period. You do not understand what "Fitness" means there.


Notice it also mentions "Other areas as issues arise".

Notice the context, spunky.

22.11 Fitness-to-Play.

The parties shall establish panels of physicians (each a “Fitness-to-Play Panel”) for the purpose of determining, as set forth in this Section 11, whether players with potentially life-threatening injuries, illnesses or other health conditions are medically able and medically fit to practice and play basketball in the NBA.
-^-^-^-^-^-

That is talking about life-threatening conditions, spunky. It's there because the NBA doesn't want players dropping dead.

I don't recall any cases in the NBA, but there have been cases in football, both college and pro, where players have died during practice because of a medical condition. The most famous case I recall was the death of a St Louis Cardinals football player, years ago, who dropped dead during spring practice because of a medical condition. The player was J. V. Cain, from Houston.

C'mon now, if you're going to post something, at least take the trouble to actually read it, yourself. That isn't about a player limping, or feeling pain, or if he can run and jump, it's about him maybe dying. They want the best medical input they can get to be sure that doesn't happen, of course.


But let's make this even more clear, so you're not confused anymore:


You're going to remain confused no matter what you read, or are told, because you don't know enough, and you're pig headed.

Just a couple quick things. Try to pay attention.


(h) A Player who consults a physician other than a physician designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation to the Team and shall authorize and direct such other physician to provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball.

See that word "authorize," dumbass? Consent form.

The physician has to have the player's consent before he can release the player's medical information to anybody else. The material you were kind enough to provide states exactly what I already told you. Which I knew it had to, before I read it.


(i) If and to the extent necessary to enable or facilitate the disclosure of medical information as provided for by this Contract or Article XXII of the CBA, the Player shall execute such individual authorization(s) as may be requested by the Team or as may be required by health care providers who examine or treat the Player.

That "individual authorization" is the consent form I already told you about, dumbass. Also notice the word "required." The physician requires the person's consent before he can release the info.

Which is what I already told you.


Is that clear enough? ...

I wish it was clear to you.



Do you understand now the role of the Team and Team doctors in regards to the player's fitness and injury management?

I understand it, and you don't, and you don't know when to pay attention.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Some of you are just bitter... holding a grudge won't bring him back, tbh...

This isn't about believing Leonard or Uncle, it's about team doctors that apparently were deeply involved in the acrimony that followed. To the point of contradicting your franchise player when he told them he couldn't play, and officially clearing him to play instead. Even if the doctors thought they were right, he's your franchise, you have to deal with those situations with proper care. Not to mention the kind of message that sends to other top tier athletes in the league. Who do you guys think has more credibility right at this moment? The healthy guy busting his ass on the NBA finals or the has been Spurs doctors?

At the end of the day, it cost the Spurs a franchise player, one of the best players in the league, the possibility of being a top tier team in the near future, and all the money and talent magnet that surrounds that.

A lot, and I mean a whole lot of people would've been fired in any other organization for a situation that worked out that way.


Just to be clear - you don't KNOW any of that. Like the part about people being fired. People don't get fired when the ownership group agrees with them, for instance. You throw out the word "involved" as if being involved in acrimony automatically implies wrongdoing. Sometimes a person can force you into a no-win situation. If that person happens to be a rare talent like Kawhi, you're going to get hammered no matter what you do.

So let me ask you a "what if". What if Uncle and Kawhi had decided that he was big enough to be his own brand, and that they needed to get to LA for him to really be marketable? And what if they were willing to play hardball to make it happen sooner than two years? What would that have looked like? I can tell you: it would have looked pretty much exactly like what we saw play out. Unless you have inside information, there's way too much missing information to say either way.

One thig we do know for certain. The guy who was unable to play was suddenly able to come back and play 9 games without ANY sign of the leg pain he was complaining about. Not a limp, not a wince, nothing. And that mysterious return just happened to coincide with a marketing campaign. To anyone unbiased person, that looks a lot more like someone who could have been playing, at least some, than it looks like a guy who just couldn't go.

The other thing we know for certain is that Uncle/Nephew were specifically trying to get to LA. If you've lost trust, and all you want is out of SA, you demand a trade and get the hell out. That's another detail that argues in favor of the likelihood that they had already made up their minds to move where the money is.

I don't doubt that Kawhi has had some chronic leg pain. A lot of pro athletes, if not most of them, live with chronic pains. I think the Spurs were fucked before the season started. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Even if Kawhi has discovered that he's getting even more media hype in Toronto than he would have dreamed, and he stays there, it doesn't change anything. He and Uncle put the Spurs in a bind. They either trade him, like he demanded, or they lose him anyway and get nothing out of the deal.

The one thing you're leaving out of your version, is that it's totally at odds with everything we've ever seen or heard about the Spurs medical staff, and the organization as a whole. There are decades worth of history that say that the Spurs put player health first. It doesn't make sense to just flush something like that completely out of the discussion.

If you have that inside information, though, give us a hint. I'll listen.

[coachmac87]

Just to be clear - you don't KNOW any of that. Like the part about people being fired. People don't get fired when the ownership group agrees with them, for instance. You throw out the word "involved" as if being involved in acrimony automatically implies wrongdoing. Sometimes a person can force you into a no-win situation. If that person happens to be a rare talent like Kawhi, you're going to get hammered no matter what you do.

So let me ask you a "what if". What if Uncle and Kawhi had decided that he was big enough to be his own brand, and that they needed to get to LA for him to really be marketable? And what if they were willing to play hardball to make it happen sooner than two years? What would that have looked like? I can tell you: it would have looked pretty much exactly like what we saw play out. Unless you have inside information, there's way too much missing information to say either way.

One thig we do know for certain. The guy who was unable to play was suddenly able to come back and play 9 games without ANY sign of the leg pain he was complaining about. Not a limp, not a wince, nothing. And that mysterious return just happened to coincide with a marketing campaign. To anyone unbiased person, that looks a lot more like someone who could have been playing, at least some, than it looks like a guy who just couldn't go.

The other thing we know for certain is that Uncle/Nephew were specifically trying to get to LA. If you've lost trust, and all you want is out of SA, you demand a trade and get the hell out. That's another detail that argues in favor of the likelihood that they had already made up their minds to move where the money is.

I don't doubt that Kawhi has had some chronic leg pain. A lot of pro athletes, if not most of them, live with chronic pains. I think the Spurs were fucked before the season started. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Even if Kawhi has discovered that he's getting even more media hype in Toronto than he would have dreamed, and he stays there, it doesn't change anything. He and Uncle put the Spurs in a bind. They either trade him, like he demanded, or they lose him anyway and get nothing out of the deal.

The one thing you're leaving out of your version, is that it's totally at odds with everything we've ever seen or heard about the Spurs medical staff, and the organization as a whole. There are decades worth of history that say that the Spurs put player health first. It doesn't make sense to just flush something like that completely out of the discussion.

If you have that inside information, though, give us a hint. I'll listen.



I think the craziest part about this whole thing is nobody literally knows what happened...or at least it hasn’t been confirmed by a reliable source. To me that’s just so odd...a top 5 player pretty much ghosts arguably on of the most successful organizations in the last 20 years? Like not only the respect they’ve earned with their play but mainly the respect and class they receive off the court.

All this over an injury disagreement? Yes I’m aware there could be more but the main stream media is running with the injury/not hurt/faking card.

Cris Carter who’s the spokesman for the group has insisted and beaten the dead horse saying Kawhi was really hurt..ok that’s fine but I’d like to know and I’m sure most would like to know what injury caused him to miss 73 games without a surgery? We can’t go off the Spurs report..so what was it?

Like is he still hurt from last year? Why the load management? Like why is Kawhi injury such a mystery or hidden secret?

IMO just shows this fool is still “hiding” something if this was KD or LeBron the media would demand real answers

[duncan2k5]

It was Kawhi and his camp that cut communication. It was Kawhi and his camp that kept saying he was coming back and then ghosting the team when the dates came up. When the Spurs finally declared him out for the season(no communication from Kawhi & co for months), of course his team comes back and says he's 95% and will come back "soon".

Apparently 95% wasn't enough to even sit court side and support is team during the playoffs.

PAFTO were playing against a rigged deck, I don't see how it isn't clear to anyone remotely familiar with the situation.

You sound like a guy that would ask the woman why she wasn't willing to talk it out with her husband who was battering her

[vy65]

Don't take my word for it, let's call the lawyers. spurraider21, vy65, FromWayDowntown...

Without bothering to read all those words, you're right. Parties are free to bargain away a sizeable portion of their rights as a part of any contractual negotiation. This includes a large swath of things from access to the courts (arbitration) to shortened limitations periods to jury waivers etc...

I wouldn't go so far as to say anything and everything can be waived (which, I don't think you're saying). But the general proposition that you can't contract away certain rights is wrong.

[duncan2k5]

Even if all this were true and he wasn't faking it for a good portion of time and using it as a crutch to ask out, none of it excuses his behavior.

That was always my main point of contention. Of course I'd have still been annoyed had he wanted out just because he supposedly wanted to live in L.A. year round, but that's because he's a superstar, one that required a lot of player development and they'd be missing out on most of his best years.

Ultimately, I'd have been more or less fine with it though, so long as he handled it like a professional (didn't have a problem with Aldridge asking out 2 years ago or supposedly wanting to finish where he started; though I don't know why he allowed it to become public knowledge), didn't destroy his trade value and allowed them to cash in.

Instead, he contributed to destroying this franchise.

The Aldridge trade request was public knowledge... The revisionist history on this board is amazing... Everyone knew about it when he requested the trade... That's how trade requests work... Once the team starts shopping the player, it gets out to the media... We ALL were on this very board saying we need to ship his ass out before the season starts... EVERYONE on here was mad at him...

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246412/LaMarcus-Aldridge-Wants-Trade-From-Spurs

His trade request was VERY public... It lasted the entire summer... Even in October of 2017 the Spurs were still looking to trade him... When they couldn't, he and Pop had the talk

[pad300]

My assertion is absolutely correct under the law, spunky.
....
I understand it, and you don't, and you don't know when to pay attention.

Again, as i've said repeatedly in this thread, you don't know how these things work in the real world, do you...

In those quotes from the contract form you are claiming are justifying your position, you're not paying attention to a word "SHALL". "Shall" is not "may". In contractual language, that does not mean "you may choose to do so", it means you MUST do so, to be in compliance with this contract. Once you sign (and thus get the paycheck), you have waived that choice...

[duncan2k5]

Just to be clear - you don't KNOW any of that. Like the part about people being fired. People don't get fired when the ownership group agrees with them, for instance. You throw out the word "involved" as if being involved in acrimony automatically implies wrongdoing. Sometimes a person can force you into a no-win situation. If that person happens to be a rare talent like Kawhi, you're going to get hammered no matter what you do.

So let me ask you a "what if". What if Uncle and Kawhi had decided that he was big enough to be his own brand, and that they needed to get to LA for him to really be marketable? And what if they were willing to play hardball to make it happen sooner than two years? What would that have looked like? I can tell you: it would have looked pretty much exactly like what we saw play out. Unless you have inside information, there's way too much missing information to say either way.

One thig we do know for certain. The guy who was unable to play was suddenly able to come back and play 9 games without ANY sign of the leg pain he was complaining about. Not a limp, not a wince, nothing. And that mysterious return just happened to coincide with a marketing campaign. To anyone unbiased person, that looks a lot more like someone who could have been playing, at least some, than it looks like a guy who just couldn't go.

The other thing we know for certain is that Uncle/Nephew were specifically trying to get to LA. If you've lost trust, and all you want is out of SA, you demand a trade and get the hell out. That's another detail that argues in favor of the likelihood that they had already made up their minds to move where the money is.

I don't doubt that Kawhi has had some chronic leg pain. A lot of pro athletes, if not most of them, live with chronic pains. I think the Spurs were fucked before the season started. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Even if Kawhi has discovered that he's getting even more media hype in Toronto than he would have dreamed, and he stays there, it doesn't change anything. He and Uncle put the Spurs in a bind. They either trade him, like he demanded, or they lose him anyway and get nothing out of the deal.

The one thing you're leaving out of your version, is that it's totally at odds with everything we've ever seen or heard about the Spurs medical staff, and the organization as a whole. There are decades worth of history that say that the Spurs put player health first. It doesn't make sense to just flush something like that completely out of the discussion.

If you have that inside information, though, give us a hint. I'll listen.

What it saying simply isn't true... When Kawhi played those 9 games, many ppl on here were saying he looks like he came back too soon from injury, and some were saying he needs to sit and recover for longer... A ting like it never happened doesn't make it true... He very CLEARLY was not himself

[acoelho1]

I think we are all speculating about what occurred and none of it really makes sense. It seems this acrimony was years in the making and we'll probably never get the full story. However, there is one thing that is an absolute fact and that is the Spurs public comments on the injury hurt any leverage we had with Kawhi or the media.

They never should have let it be known that he was cleared when Leonard was stating he couldn't play. Pop's comments on "Kawhi's group" only escalated the situation. I'm not saying he wouldn't have asked to be traded if those comments didn't happen but they should have just taken a more tactful approach.

Whether you agree or not with his team's decision making, you have to give your franchise player as much rope as possible. It looks like Pop's ego got the best of him in this case. Nevertheless, I don't really care anymore and I definitely would not want him back on the team even if he had a change of heart. It's one thing to ask to be traded, it quite another to disparage a franchise through your team and minions in the media. The AD trade request is a primary example of how to do it with some class.

Finally, I'm very excited about this team for the future with Murray, White & Walker. I believe in the organization and we'll be contending again very soon.

[313]

What it saying simply isn't true... When Kawhi played those 9 games, many ppl on here were saying he looks like he came back too soon from injury, and some were saying he needs to sit and recover for longer... A ting like it never happened doesn't make it true... He very CLEARLY was not himselfAnd PATFO shut him down. It's not like they were forcing him to play. The only reason they expected him to come back was because the only communication coming from his camp was "He's 95%".

[spurraider21]

Again, as i've said repeatedly in this thread, you don't know how these things work in the real world, do you...

In those quotes from the contract form you are claiming are justifying your position, you're not paying attention to a word "SHALL". "Shall" is not "may". In contractual language, that does not mean "you may choose to do so", it means you MUST do so, to be in compliance with this contract. Once you sign (and thus get the paycheck), you have waived that choice...
indeed. rather than saying "player authorizes" they say "player shall authorize" to present a future tense. such that in the event that the condition is met in the future, the player must then execute an authorization for the doctor to disclose to the team. but its just as strong.

[exstatic]

And PATFO shut him down. It's not like they were forcing him to play. The only reason they expected him to come back was because the only communication coming from his camp was "He's 95%".

Repeatedly.

He's almost ready to play. Oh, not so much. Give it more time. OK, he's ready. He'll play on 'X' date. Nope.

[NameLess Scrub]

And this is why I hate seeing the raptors succeed. This crap of kawhi won’t stop. And if they end up winning, we’ll probably hear it all year next year. I’m almost expecting it at this point

No problem, they threw the series away last night

[apalisoc_9]

And PATFO shut him down. It's not like they were forcing him to play. The only reason they expected him to come back was because the only communication coming from his camp was "He's 95%".

Probably because PATFO didnt commit to the supermax.

Its all about that.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Probably because PATFO didnt commit to the supermax.

Its all about that.


Weren't you the main one who was on here telling everyone that you "knew" that Kawhi was looking to get out of SA - the year before last? He didn't like the shit teammates PATFO surrounded him with, etc.? That was you, right? Or did you just pick a screen name almost the same as that other guy?

So if he was already looking to leave the previous year, it didn't have anything to do with any injury, real or fake.

[ginobilized]

Kawhi Theory # 487478476765

After watching him play this post season, I am starting to wonder if he knew he had a chronic leg issue and knew that he wasn't winning a ring with the Spurs.
He's definitely in that "play til' the wheels fall off" mode. Winning now is important because he knows his days are very numbered to play at a high level.
Maybe the Spurs knew, too? It will be interesting to see what he does after the Finals.

[exstatic]

Kawhi Theory # 487478476765

After watching him play this post season, I am starting to wonder if he knew he had a chronic leg issue and knew that he wasn't winning a ring with the Spurs.
He's definitely in that "play til' the wheels fall off" mode. Winning now is important because he knows his days are very numbered to play at a high level.
Maybe the Spurs knew, too? It will be interesting to see what he does after the Finals.

Terminology is everything. There's a BIG difference between a chronic condition and a degenerative one, which is the case with Kawhi.

[RC_Drunkford]

Kawhi Theory # 487478476765

After watching him play this post season, I am starting to wonder if he knew he had a chronic leg issue and knew that he wasn't winning a ring with the Spurs.
He's definitely in that "play til' the wheels fall off" mode. Winning now is important because he knows his days are very numbered to play at a high level.
Maybe the Spurs knew, too? It will be interesting to see what he does after the Finals.

I don't think so. Spurs with Kawhi are better than the Raptors. They don't have anybody close to the quality of Aldridge and their coach is a rookie. Besides that Spurs were ready to bring in DeRozan with Kawhi still on the team. There were rumors they would add another All-Star and it was most likely him

[hater]

:lmao Mute Cancer

[ElNono]

My assertion is absolutely correct under the law, spunky.

Medical information is special, you fool. It concerns the doctor-patient relationship, which is special, the same way that lawyer-client privilege is special.

Does your cellphone company require you to submit to a physical before they will provide you with cellphone service? Some things are ordinary, and some are special.



You didn't understand anything I wrote earlier, did you? Or do you just not read well? Look at what I wrote: "His refusal, however, would probably mean he would no longer be employed."

It has the same meaning as what you wrote. You're arguing with what I wrote by saying the same thing in different words. That's kind of odd, guy.



That was not a backpedal, spunky. It's exactly the same thing I wrote earlier. You just don't know enough to understand all this.



You are totally mistaken, period. It applies only to what it states. Period. You do not understand what "Fitness" means there.



Notice the context, spunky.

22.11 Fitness-to-Play.

The parties shall establish panels of physicians (each a “Fitness-to-Play Panel”) for the purpose of determining, as set forth in this Section 11, whether players with potentially life-threatening injuries, illnesses or other health conditions are medically able and medically fit to practice and play basketball in the NBA.
-^-^-^-^-^-

That is talking about life-threatening conditions, spunky. It's there because the NBA doesn't want players dropping dead.

I don't recall any cases in the NBA, but there have been cases in football, both college and pro, where players have died during practice because of a medical condition. The most famous case I recall was the death of a St Louis Cardinals football player, years ago, who dropped dead during spring practice because of a medical condition. The player was J. V. Cain, from Houston.

C'mon now, if you're going to post something, at least take the trouble to actually read it, yourself. That isn't about a player limping, or feeling pain, or if he can run and jump, it's about him maybe dying. They want the best medical input they can get to be sure that doesn't happen, of course.



You're going to remain confused no matter what you read, or are told, because you don't know enough, and you're pig headed.

Just a couple quick things. Try to pay attention.


See that word "authorize," dumbass? Consent form.

The physician has to have the player's consent before he can release the player's medical information to anybody else. The material you were kind enough to provide states exactly what I already told you. Which I knew it had to, before I read it.


That "individual authorization" is the consent form I already told you about, dumbass. Also notice the word "required." The physician requires the person's consent before he can release the info.

Which is what I already told you.

I wish it was clear to you.

I understand it, and you don't, and you don't know when to pay attention.

:lol

You crowbarred 'consent forms' and 'if kawhi doesn't agree to it, he wouldn't have a job' after you got called out for the asinine things you said in your first post (which everyone can read, BTW, and had zero mentions of 'consent forms').

Including stupid, made up things like the team doctors not being able to tell the team about Kawhi's condition, something factually incorrect in light of the uniform player contract posted above, and something you immediately tried to walk back.

I don't really have time to keep dunking on you, tbh, this isn't about feelings. The rest of the posters here can read the posts and reach their own conclusions on who's talking out of his ass and who is not.

[ElNono]

Just to be clear - you don't KNOW any of that. Like the part about people being fired. People don't get fired when the ownership group agrees with them, for instance. You throw out the word "involved" as if being involved in acrimony automatically implies wrongdoing. Sometimes a person can force you into a no-win situation. If that person happens to be a rare talent like Kawhi, you're going to get hammered no matter what you do.

Oh yes, I don't know that, that's why I'm asking if they're still around. I don't need to know who they are, I just want to know if they're still part of the organization, considering the connotations that could have with other top tier free agents (ie: asking Kawhi for references about the Spurs and their personnel/ownership).

Ownership isn't here to side with X or Y person, tbh, and unlike the marketing slogan of "Spurs family", this is a business. People do their jobs as best they can but if they don't produce positive results for the business, they get canned. It's not fair, but it's what happens on any competitive business.

The reason I'm asking is MoSpur called this thing a year before it all happened. People mocked him here initially, until it really happened and got vindicated. So I have to take his word on this matter as valid. timvp, a respected, if not venerated personality in the world of Spurs journalism mentioned same. Neither of them want to reveal who this person is, or persons are, and that's ok. Naming names is immaterial now, but I think it would be more important to find out if they're still connected with the organization.

[Fusternino]

Are you sure we were targeting DDR anyways? I always thought it was Green+Murray+18 for Kemba.

Honestly, when Demar freaked out after he knowing his name was in trade talks, the Spurs should've leveraged that by purposely killing talk of trade with the Raptors while still leaving Toronto with a toxic relationship with their own star player. Then, come back to it after Demar demands out himself, and then maybe you get OG or give up Mills instead of Green.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Are you sure we were targeting DDR anyways? I always thought it was Green+Murray+18 for Kemba.

Honestly, when Demar freaked out after he knowing his name was in trade talks, the Spurs should've leveraged that by purposely killing talk of trade with the Raptors while still leaving Toronto with a toxic relationship with their own star player. Then, come back to it after Demar demands out himself, and then maybe you get OG or give up Mills instead of Green.

Now do you think any front office that was stupid enough to give out those large contracts to Gasol and Mills, and alienate their star player, is skilled enough to have negotiated with the Raps as you suggest?

I really admire Dell Demps for the massive internal damage he did to the Lakers by leaking the names of all their players involved in the proposed AD trade. Pure evil genius.

[GreekSpursfan]

Since kawhi has zero personality from now on i will talk about his uncle and only him and by talk i mean, fuck uncle Dick tbh.

[diego]

(ie: asking Kawhi for references about the Spurs and their personnel/ownership).
.

they would have to find whatever closet he was hiding in first, ill take the risk! :lol

[duncan2k5]

And PATFO shut him down. It's not like they were forcing him to play. The only reason they expected him to come back was because the only communication coming from his camp was "He's 95%".

Ur agreeing with me then... Many ppl think he stopped himself from playing... He was shut down by the Spurs after the 9 games because he was clearly still injured

[Fusternino]

Now do you think any front office that was stupid enough to give out those large contracts to Gasol and Mills, and alienate their star player, is skilled enough to have negotiated with the Raps as you suggest?

I really admire Dell Demps for the massive internal damage he did to the Lakers by leaking the names of all their players involved in the proposed AD trade. Pure evil genius.

They wouldn't have bothered to leverage the fact Masai was already looking to ship DeMar, somewhat lying to him in the process, no. But it is what I would've done.

The AD trade wasn't even possible because realistically the Pels wouldn't have been able to take back more than two players. Demps possibly destroyed the Lakers for the next 2-3 years, the entire LeBron timeline. I love him!

[ZeusWillJudge]

The reason I'm asking is MoSpur called this thing a year before it all happened. People mocked him here initially, until it really happened and got vindicated. So I have to take his word on this matter as valid. timvp, a respected, if not venerated personality in the world of Spurs journalism mentioned same. Neither of them want to reveal who this person is, or persons are, and that's ok. Naming names is immaterial now, but I think it would be more important to find out if they're still connected with the organization.


But none of those old rumors (none that I recall, anyway) had ANYTHING to do with an injury. People can't have it both ways. Either this was about an injury, or it was older than that.

Only one of two things happened: either Kawhi was too hurt to play, or he was faking it to force a trade. No?

So if he was too hurt to play, it means that the Spurs medical staff was trying to force a too-injured player back on the floor.
If he was faking to force a trade, it means that the Spurs medical staff was right, and I understand the organization's frustration.

Either he was able to mask his discomfort while playing those 9 games, but unable to mask it in Toronto.
Or he was faking, and took a year off to force a trade. But he decided to play 9 pain-free games here for a product launch.

I'm convinced Uncle and Nephew wanted to get to a bigger market, on a team that would give him free reign - and they trumped up some personal bullshit about him being injured (after the fact) to justify it. And I'm convinced because of the things I've seen, and not because I want to believe one way or the other. Did somebody say something he didn't like? Probably. That doesn't change ANY of the other.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Ownership isn't here to side with X or Y person, tbh, and unlike the marketing slogan of "Spurs family", this is a business. People do their jobs as best they can but if they don't produce positive results for the business, they get canned. It's not fair, but it's what happens on any competitive business.


I don't know how many competitive businesses you've been involved with or haven't. But upper management has to look at facts and make decisions. Often that means deciding between two "experts" with totally differing positions. If they didn't, they would get paralyzed, and the business would fail. Always.

So saying they aren't here to side with X or Y person is naïve to the point of being silly. Of course that's what they're here to do.

So what "positive results" do you think the medical staff were responsible for? Convincing Kawhi to stay, even though he and Uncle wanted to get to a bigger market? Now THAT would be something that medical staff are not responsible for. Should they have cured Kawhi from a condition that may not be curable? Or maybe didn't even exist? Or are you saying that they really did mis-diagnose him?

You can't just make statements like that without taking responsibility for what the statement really means.

[Desert Spur]

There was an article from Yahoo Sports that indicated Spurs brass advised Kawhi's group they wanted to shut him down for the season. Kawhi's group balked.

In addition, apparently Spurs brass acquiesced to Uncle Dennis et al in giving them authority to decide when Kawhi would return to the court. This is why the "lack of trust" narrative/distraction is bogus, imo. I'm guessing Kawhi wanted to return on multiple occasions, but Uncle D blocked him (this is where the real trust issue lied). Naturally, the team called a meeting to call out Kawhi, as any contender should. In turn, Dennis took this meeting and manufactured a trust issue. It's an excuse to save face for Kawhi's brand. Besides, if getting Kawhi out of SA was due to lack of trust, why the need to convince him to remain in Toronto? Because from the beginning, after Kawhi's group visited China and realized potential ($$$) to build an exclusive brand, their plan has been to get him to LA.

[ElNono]

But none of those old rumors (none that I recall, anyway) had ANYTHING to do with an injury. People can't have it both ways. Either this was about an injury, or it was older than that.

Only one of two things happened: either Kawhi was too hurt to play, or he was faking it to force a trade. No?

So if he was too hurt to play, it means that the Spurs medical staff was trying to force a too-injured player back on the floor.
If he was faking to force a trade, it means that the Spurs medical staff was right, and I understand the organization's frustration.

Either he was able to mask his discomfort while playing those 9 games, but unable to mask it in Toronto.
Or he was faking, and took a year off to force a trade. But he decided to play 9 pain-free games here for a product launch.

I'm convinced Uncle and Nephew wanted to get to a bigger market, on a team that would give him free reign - and they trumped up some personal bullshit about him being injured (after the fact) to justify it. And I'm convinced because of the things I've seen, and not because I want to believe one way or the other. Did somebody say something he didn't like? Probably. That doesn't change ANY of the other.

You're glossing over that there was, reportedly, some disagreement between Kawhi and his entourage and somebody in the organization, and it's not entirely clear if it had to do with the injury or not. At least Uncle here says it was related to that, and there was a loss of trust.

Ultimately, if true, the injury story becomes less relevant. One would even argue it makes sense if whatever that argument was ended up with Kawhi wanting to leave, and the injury angle works just as well.

Like you said, I don't know if it's true, but some people claim to know, and all I really want to know is if those people are still with the organization.

[ElNono]

I don't know how many competitive businesses you've been involved with or haven't. But upper management has to look at facts and make decisions. Often that means deciding between two "experts" with totally differing positions. If they didn't, they would get paralyzed, and the business would fail. Always.

So saying they aren't here to side with X or Y person is naïve to the point of being silly. Of course that's what they're here to do.

So what "positive results" do you think the medical staff were responsible for? Convincing Kawhi to stay, even though he and Uncle wanted to get to a bigger market? Now THAT would be something that medical staff are not responsible for. Should they have cured Kawhi from a condition that may not be curable? Or maybe didn't even exist? Or are you saying that they really did mis-diagnose him?

You can't just make statements like that without taking responsibility for what the statement really means.

You're missing my point or I didn't express myself correctly. The point is that this is a business, decisions are made to what's good or better for the business in the short/long term. That includes handling secrecy and communication, especially with a top 3/5 player in the league.

Unless Kawhi impregnated Pop's daughter, there's just no situation where, business wise, it makes sense for Pop to come out publicly and say Kawhi is not a leader. Or the doctors to clear him to play even though he claims he was hurt. Even if they're both absolutely right, it puts the hands that feeds you and the team's future on the spot.

This happens all the time in businesses, especially competitive businesses. There's decisions that might fuck with the consumer, but are great for the bottom line. The consumer didn't do anything wrong, most likely everything right, and they still get the short end of the stick.

Or the guy that might've made the company 50-100 million but had two bad 6 million projects in a row, and gets canned. That's what being a competitive business is. It's not a family, it's what have you done for me lately.

Clearly, considering the value lost by the Spurs on that forced trade, some heads should've rolled. Have they? That's what would be nice to know.

[313]

Ur agreeing with me then... Many ppl think he stopped himself from playing... He was shut down by the Spurs after the 9 games because he was clearly still injured
I was never saying he faked the injury, I was arguing that kawhi & co used it(the injury) as a plot device in their “get the hell out of Texas” campaign. Unconventional, but it worked.

[Harry Callahan]

The uncle is the gatekeeper in this situation and he has been feeding the poison to the media (for 2 years) and his nephew (for at least three years if not longer).

There is no way that Dennis Robertson is a person of integrity. His actions have been VERY questionable and erratic for years. I bet Bryan Elfus would be able to shed a ton of light on his former "Impact Sports" associates, if anyone bothers to pay attention (especially ESPN). ESPN is too worried about sagging ratings and providing a SJW angle for their product. Have you seen the way Adam Silver and his gang promote the ratings starved WNBA? Unbelievable.

[Harry Callahan]

BTW, the "Group" has been in control of Nephews medical situation for two years. The guy still looks gimpy even after an entire season off two years ago and missing 30% of the regular season this year with no specific reported injury. He was never on the injury list.

I'm convinced a chronic problem is in place that has been going on for 8-9 years to various degrees. The Spurs understandably were wondering how committed this guy actually is after 2017-2018 season. The guy was NOT rehabbing anything in June and July of 2018 because of the ankle sprain and the fact that the season was over. The "group" advises the Spurs (and the org allows) the "group" to take control of the rehab in Aug 2018 with their own doctors and the guy essentially missed the entire following season. None of it passes the smell test. It was nothing more than a concocted "medical" holdout to destroy the Spurs relationship with the player and the player destroys his own trade value by the holdout and demands eventually made so that the acquiring only gives up pennies on the dollar - improving his chances to get in the playoffs. The actions of a scumbag. Subsequent win loss results DO NOT change this.

[Uriel]

The mistrust surrounding the injury definitely played a prominent role; Uncle Dennis isn't lying about that. It's difficult to point to the exact piece of hay that broke the camel's back but this was up there.

However, the downfall was actually many years in the making. There are layers to it.

The reason I don't say more is that to do so, I'd have to name names. There are like four or five prominent people right in the middle of the drama that media members don't really mention -- or only mention peripherally. Even if I drop vague hints, it'd take ST about five minutes to guess the names.

Everyone I've emailed with regarding further details has come to the same conclusion: not worth the consequences. The people involved would deny it and there's a good chance of being blackballed.

That said, I know some of the ESPN decision makers are now weighing whether to divulge more. With the Raptors in the Finals, they know it'd be a huge story that could be worth the blowback. I'd say there's a 50/50 chance they'll publish it in the next week.
So it's been over a week and ESPN still hasn't published anything, so I guess it's safe to say they've decided against publishing it?

[JeffDuncan]

:lol

You crowbarred 'consent forms' and 'if kawhi doesn't agree to it, he wouldn't have a job' ...


:lol
That is an outright lie from you. I did not.

You're just too ignorant of this subject to understand what I wrote, or you're too dishonest to admit I'm right.



... after you got called out for the asinine things you said in your first post (which everyone can read, BTW, and had zero mentions of 'consent forms').

You are a lying sack of shit.

I wrote this in that first post:
"...UNLESS they were authorized, by Kawhi himself, by his written consent..."

Can you even read, you lying sack of shit?



Including stupid, made up things like the team doctors not being able to tell the team about Kawhi's condition, ...

Which in fact they can't, WITHOUT HIS CONSENT, you ignorant, lying sack of shit.



...something factually incorrect in light of the uniform player contract posted above, and something you immediately tried to walk back.

You are a lying sack of shit. The contract, itself, calls for what it refers to as a required authorization, a face I pointed out to you right in front of your face, you lying sack of shit.



I don't really have time to keep dunking on you, ...

You are smart to run away now, you lying sack of shit. It's the smartest thing you've done.



tbh, this isn't about feelings. The rest of the posters here can read the posts and reach their own conclusions on who's talking out of his ass and who is not.

They certainly can, dumbass.

[benefactor]

You are a lying sack of shit.

you lying sack of shit?

lying sack of shit.

You are a lying sack of shit.

you lying sack of shit.


you lying sack of shit.
Those are all great but lets have one more, this time dig deep and really feel it

[ElNono]

Those are all great but lets have one more, this time dig deep and really feel it

:lol them feels getting hurt

[ElNono]

You are smart to run away now

lol I'm not going anywhere, your emo rants are dime a dozen in this place

[slick'81]

So it's been over a week and ESPN still hasn't published anything, so I guess it's safe to say they've decided against publishing it?


Nobodys publishing anything :lmao

[GreekSpursfan]

Fuck uncle D.