Patrick Williams - 2020 NBA Draft Prospect

[timvp]

https://i.imgur.com/C3twdUh.jpg

Patrick Williams

College: Florida State
Position: PF/SF(?)
Age: 19
Height: 6-foot-8
Weight: 225 pounds
Draft Range: 6 to 16

Why: Perfect frame for modern day wing. Already really strong. Good instincts and basketball IQ for being one of the youngest players in the draft. His shooting touch is promising (83.8% at the line, 32% from three). High character.

Why Not: Came off the bench, averaged only 22.2 minutes per game and yet his efficiency still wasn't too impressive. Slow-ish release on jumper. Suspiciously underwhelming rebounder for size and strength. Might be too bulky to be a full-time perimeter player; may need to slim down a little bit.

Spurs Fit: Williams is raw enough that a full year in Austin would do him good. By his second year, he should be getting minutes at both forward spots.

Spurs Comparison - Ceiling: Poor Man's Kawhi Leonard

Spurs Comparison - Floor: Bobby Simmons

Statistics (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4431687/patrick-williams)
Scouting Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRKaKRQl6us)
Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW0rUt9sXWo)

[Dejounte]

Porn man's Kawhi? Oh man, that's sexy.

[Chinook]

I really don't want a raw player. I don't need a guy to be a realized star or anything, but most teams seem able to give their lotto picks minutes right out of the gate. If you draft Williams, teach him how to hit threes from the corner and have him come off the bench next to Gay until he gets his feet under him so you can start him for Lyles. Austin's fine for some players, but it's not a place legit prospects should go. The Spurs aren't a contender anymore and can afford to let young guys learn on the job.

[Fusternino]

De he grow the past year? Can he grow more, he's still young? Looks like a bit of a tweener.

[ace3g]

Bounce & Brains: The Off-Ball Movement that Helps Make FSU's Patrick Williams So Goodhttps://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTcwNzA3MzI0Mjc1NTMzMDYy%2F patrick-williams-lou.jpg

https://www.si.com/college/fsu/basketball/bounce-brains-off-ball-movement-helps-make-fsu-patrick-williams-analysis-seminoles-video-highlights

[TDomination]

I really don't want a raw player. I don't need a guy to be a realized star or anything, but most teams seem able to give their lotto picks minutes right out of the gate. If you draft Williams, teach him how to hit threes from the corner and have him come off the bench next to Gay until he gets his feet under him so you can start him for Lyles. Austin's fine for some players, but it's not a place legit prospects should go. The Spurs aren't a contender anymore and can afford to let young guys learn on the job.

agreed about the Austin thing. Our playoff streak ended so who cares if we end up losing a lot of games because we are trying to implement Patrick Williams or whoever we draft on to the team. Let them learn with the main team.

[Dejounte]

De he grow the past year? Can he grow more, he's still young? Looks like a bit of a tweener.


https://www.instagram.com/p/B8g5YIQlOEs/?igshid=17l8h2m5nhl7j

He's plenty tall. If Keldon can grow an inch, Pat can grow an inch.

[Chinook]

agreed about the Austin thing. Our playoff streak ended so who cares if we end up losing a lot of games because we are trying to implement Patrick Williams or whoever we draft on to the team. Let them learn with the main team.

Exactly. Like don't start young guys over better vets for no reason, but the team clearly needs a defensive forward (if not two). Even if we disagree on his upside, I think we unanimously agree Williams can already be that. Let him play 15-22 minutes with the big club. Otherwise, Pop's just going to re-sign Beli or sign someone just like him to take those minutes. Or heaven forbid that Pop re-ups Forbes and pushes Walker or Johnson down to the bench.

Hell, bring up Sam too.

[Dejounte]

The future:

White
Keldon
Patrick Williams
Isaiah Stewart
Poetl

If they can somehow get another pick in the teens... Man, oh man, Stewart would be nice with this group.

[ace3g]

Someone mentioned injury concerns for Patrick Williams; other than him missing some games with a sprained toe, these twitter accounts are the only things I can find so far about possible "compensatory injury."

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics

Spoke with my twin & kinesiology prof on biomechanics of Obi Toppin and Patrick Williams, and thought I’d share our conclusions:
1) Patwill is bound for a myriad of hamstring injuries unless severe corrections take place in lower body
2) Toppin will never have good hips in space
2:41pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279500623059341313) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1289919823519068160/E2WEXamX_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd) Simon Rath (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd)Hawk (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=313)sDraftNerd
Replying to ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics

I think he just needs to adjust his workout plan and do less thigh exercises. That’s something an NBA trainer should be able to fix.
6:07pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd/status/1279552548869980165) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics
Replying to Hawk (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=313)sDraftNerd
Yeah it definitely needs to be rebalanced, relatively easy fix that just requires hard work... if they remain imbalanced he will struggle to keep a healthy lower body
6:09pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279552970284322827) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg
Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics
Jul 4 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279501756104413187) Replying to @TheSportsminn (https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/#)
Major lower body rebalancing, lower leg muscles need a lot of work to be able to function ideally alongside his massive quads (sorry @EthanPiechota (https://twitter.com/EthanPiechota/))

[Dejounte]

Someone mentioned injury concerns for Patrick Williams; other than him missing some games with a sprained toe, these twitter accounts are the only things I can find so far about possible "compensatory injury."

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics




Spoke with my twin & kinesiology prof on biomechanics of Obi Toppin and Patrick Williams, and thought I’d share our conclusions:
1) Patwill is bound for a myriad of hamstring injuries unless severe corrections take place in lower body
2) Toppin will never have good hips in space
2:41pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279500623059341313) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1289919823519068160/E2WEXamX_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd) Simon Rath (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd) (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd)Hawk (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=313)sDraftNerd
Replying to (https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/#)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics

I think he just needs to adjust his workout plan and do less thigh exercises. That’s something an NBA trainer should be able to fix.
6:07pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/HawksDraftNerd/status/1279552548869980165) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics) (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics
Replying to (https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/#)Hawk (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=313)sDraftNerd
Yeah it definitely needs to be rebalanced, relatively easy fix that just requires hard work... if they remain imbalanced he will struggle to keep a healthy lower body
6:09pm · 4 Jul 2020 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279552970284322827) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1232172150263631872/pjzGxHEN_normal.jpg
Alex Brown (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics)ahb (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2951)Analytics
Jul 4 (https://twitter.com/AhbAnalytics/status/1279501756104413187) Replying to @TheSportsminn (https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/#)
Major lower body rebalancing, lower leg muscles need a lot of work to be able to function ideally alongside his massive quads (sorry @EthanPiechota (https://twitter.com/EthanPiechota/))

Ah, so it sounds more cautionary than an actual red flag. Honestly, sounds a bit like nephew when he got Zaza'ed and there were alleged issues that it was a compound effect that would lead to his quad problems...

[timvp]

The red flag I'm stuck on with Williams is his rebounding. He's built like an oak tree yet he's weak on the glass. Even looking at his high school and AAU stats, he's weak on the glass. Devin Vassell looks like Reggie Miller's anorexic younger brother when he's next to Williams yet Vassell is the better rebounder somehow.

Considering that rebounding rate most directly transfers from college to the NBA, it's a worry, IMO. Other 3/4s who make it have a much higher rebounding rate. Kawhi was a beast on the boards in college from Day 1, for example.

Beyond his rebounding, I like Williams. High ceiling, good tools, good instincts. I won't be sad if the Spurs pick him at 11. But this rebounding issue is a big enough red flag that I'd rather the Spurs pick Vassell if both are available even though Williams in theory fits better positionally.

[ace3g]

Potential 2020 NBA Draft targets for the Spurs: Patrick Williamshttps://www.poundingtherock.com/2020/7/12/21322054/potential-2020-nba-draft-targets-for-the-spurs-patrick-williams

[Dejounte]

The red flag I'm stuck on with Williams is his rebounding. He's built like an oak tree yet he's weak on the glass. Even looking at his high school and AAU stats, he's weak on the glass. Devin Vassell looks like Reggie Miller's anorexic younger brother when he's next to Williams yet Vassell is the better rebounder somehow.

Considering that rebounding rate most directly transfers from college to the NBA, it's a worry, IMO. Other 3/4s who make it have a much higher rebounding rate. Kawhi was a beast on the boards in college from Day 1, for example.

Beyond his rebounding, I like Williams. High ceiling, good tools, good instincts. I won't be sad if the Spurs pick him at 11. But this rebounding issue is a big enough red flag that I'd rather the Spurs pick Vassell if both are available even though Williams in theory fits better positionally.

I chalk that up to the schemes and game plan by the coach. It was a switchable defense... The bigs and forwards did not stay around the rim like they would on any other team. Almost every player on Florida St averaged four rebounds. The center on that team didnt average much rebounds. Vassell may have averaged a bit more rebounds because he would typically pick up the ball handler, who would usually attack the basket and miss because of Vassell's great defense on guards. He would then get that rebound.
https://seminoles.com/sports/basketball/

[BatManu20]

He’ll be gone by 11 when it’s all said and done tbh.

[BackHome]

The future:

White
Keldon
Patrick Williams
Isaiah Stewart
Poetl

If they can somehow get another pick in the teens... Man, oh man, Stewart would be nice with this group.

I like Stewart but he will be a Center he does not have the movement to play Power Forward.

[timvp]

I chalk that up to the schemes and game plan by the coach. It was a switchable defense... The bigs and forwards did not stay around the rim like they would on any other team. Almost every player on Florida St averaged four rebounds. Vassell may have averaged a bit more rebounds because he would typically pick up the ball handler, who would usually attack the basket and miss because of Vassell's great defense on guards. He would then get that rebound.

Williams' lack of rebounding instincts becomes obvious when you look for it when watching tape. Someone who has a man's body at 6-foot-8 with really good athleticism shouldn't be a run of the mill rebounder on his college team.

Kabengele played in the same system the previous year and he was really strong on the boards. I can't chalk it up to a system issue, tbh.

Even someone like Nassir Little who was similarly as raw as Williams was a much better rebounder -- and he's much shorter.

Williams' lack of rebounding isn't a deal breaker but it's a red flag that he might be lacking reaction speed and/or heart, IMO.

[Sugus]

If the Spurs draft PatWill to play the full-time 3, with some slight small ball 4, then his lack of rebounding isn't as much of a deal breaker, taking into account the best case scenario that the Spurs either sign a free agent PF that can fill up the rebounding role (since Poeltl isn't much of a rebounder either), or draft one with next year's draft pick, a draft which is supposed to be loaded. I don't know about prospects, but fitting a good sized, ball-handling point-forward kind of PF alongside PatWill, Poeltl and our guards sounds like a real solid foundation for success.

Now, if you're telling me Williams is going to be playing extended minutes at the 4... That's a different story. Either way, I like him much better than Vassell. Players putting on the kind of weight Devin would have to gain to be a successful player in the NBA isn't very common, and I'd like for a player that we don't have to send to Austin for two years to develop.

[TD 21]

Williams' lack of rebounding instincts becomes obvious when you look for it when watching tape. Someone who has a man's body at 6-foot-8 with really good athleticism shouldn't be a run of the mill rebounder on his college team.

Kabengele played in the same system the previous year and he was really strong on the boards. I can't chalk it up to a system issue, tbh.

Even someone like Nassir Little who was similarly as raw as Williams was a much better rebounder -- and he's much shorter.

Williams' lack of rebounding isn't a deal breaker but it's a red flag that he might be lacking reaction speed and/or heart, IMO.

Length is more important than height when it comes to rebounding. In this regard, I equate Little and Williams to Scumbag and George, because the 2 inch shorter ones are also the 2 inch longer ones and hence the better rebounding ones.

This is the one area where Murray really helps though. You can get by with weaker 4-5 rebounding that normal because of his ability clean glass.



If the Spurs draft PatWill to play the full-time 3, with some slight small ball 4.

With his lack of shooting and lateral quickness, he's clearly going to be a 4 in the league. He'll still be an option to defender bigger 3s though.

[KobesAchilles]

Not interested. I want a prospect with a high motor. We need a good rebounder since all we have is LMA and even then he might not be up to that task anymore. Plus I’m iffy on him as a defender in the nba

[Sugus]

With his lack of shooting and lateral quickness, he's clearly going to be a 4 in the league. He'll still be an option to defender bigger 3s though.

I'm open to learning more about PatWill since I haven't watched too much tape on him, but why would you already discard his shooting ability? He shoots a very respectable 83% from the FT line, which is a good indicator to his shooting mechanics and whether they can translate to and evolve in the NBA, plus shooting 32% from 3pt range (albeit on low volume). I wouldn't call him a sniper or close to it, but the foundational pieces are there for him to develop into a good shooter, even if he has to play as stretch 4 due to lack of lateral quickness.

I don't know how I feel about the Spurs drafting him though, if it's clear he's only going to be a 4. Yes, we need a PF, but the Spurs have already invested in Samanic and he showed some promise the last season game, just enough to where I wouldn't discard him until we give him a full season to prove himself. I feel like we have more use for a 3.5 than a full 4 or 4.5 in our current team. I'm really iffy on Devin Vassell too, though, so I don't really know which realistic prospect for the Spurs fits the mold I want them to fill in this draft. I'd love for next year's draft to focus on the 4 or 5 positions, especially considering it's rumored to be much stronger in talent and we might no longer have hopes for Samanic.

[Dejounte]

Not interested. I want a prospect with a high motor. We need a good rebounder since all we have is LMA and even then he might not be up to that task anymore. Plus I’m iffy on him as a defender in the nba

So, you're digging deep and try hard in finding flaws in players who actually would be a good fit on this team but when it comes to your boy Vassell and his flaws, you dismiss it. Got it.

[TD 21]

I'm open to learning more about PatWill since I haven't watched too much tape on him, but why would you already discard his shooting ability? He shoots a very respectable 83% from the FT line, which is a good indicator to his shooting mechanics and whether they can translate to and evolve in the NBA, plus shooting 32% from 3pt range (albeit on low volume). I wouldn't call him a sniper or close to it, but the foundational pieces are there for him to develop into a good shooter, even if he has to play as stretch 4 due to lack of lateral quickness.

I don't know how I feel about the Spurs drafting him though, if it's clear he's only going to be a 4. Yes, we need a PF, but the Spurs have already invested in Samanic and he showed some promise the last season game, just enough to where I wouldn't discard him until we give him a full season to prove himself. I feel like we have more use for a 3.5 than a full 4 or 4.5 in our current team. I'm really iffy on Devin Vassell too, though, so I don't really know which realistic prospect for the Spurs fits the mold I want them to fill in this draft. I'd love for next year's draft to focus on the 4 or 5 positions, especially considering it's rumored to be much stronger in talent and we might no longer have hopes for Samanic.

I didn't. The reality is, he's currently a sub par range shooter and will probably remain so at least to start his career. I'd be surprised if he's ever better than average though, which goes for most of the current youth.

Samanic is irrelevant. He won't be able to defend big, overpowering 3s nor is he some can't miss prospect who has the position on lockdown.

Williams is essentially a 3.75 (a nominal 4, who defends certain 3s). Bey is the only 3.5 projected to fall in their range.

[Sugus]

I didn't. The reality is, he's currently a sub par range shooter and will probably remain so at least to start his career. I'd be surprised if he's ever better than average though, which goes for most of the current youth.

Samanic is irrelevant. He won't be able to defend big, overpowering 3s nor is he some can't miss prospect who has the position on lockdown.

Williams is essentially a 3.75 (a nominal 4, who defends certain 3s). Bey is the only 3.5 projected to fall in their range.

I see, I disagree though, of course we'll see how his shot develops over his career but he seems to have everything in place to be a good shooter except for the reps, volume, and green light. Some other posters mentioned how PatWill's coaching system in college was meant for moving the ball, which might've taken opportunities from him, and you can't discard the wonders the Spurs' coaching has done for players' shots in the past. We all (at least I did) saw Keldon's horrid shooting start to his Austin season, only for him to turn it around and become one of the more promising shooters in our core group. Of course, being drafted by the Spurs doesn't automatically mean a player's shooting issues are magically solved, but if that's the biggest knock on his game, I'm willing to still bet on him on this fact and the fact that he at least shows room for growth there.

And as for Samanic... Of course he isn't locking down the PF position, and I guess we're taking -or should be taking- BPA every time, but I just wouldn't be content with the Spurs devoting another consecutive draft pick to a strict 4 (I'd like Achiuwa as a 4/5 if we're going there), unless it's someone who projects to be able to play multiple positions or fills a different kind of need for us. We can perfectly sign a PF off the FA market to hold down the fort for next season on a 1-year deal, then give some major minutes to our youth next season, including Luka, and go into the 20-21' offseason with a much better image of which prospects have swam and sunk, and which position is most dire to fill using what will probably be the Spurs' highest pick since Duncan in the most (reportedly) loaded draft in ages.

Get a wing, or a center, prospect this draft. I don't like Vassell too much but he fills that need. Bey is a good one too, but I'm still hoping the Spurs trade up, at least a couple positions, to get "their guy", of course if the asking price isn't too steep.

[TimDunkem]

I really don't want a raw player. I don't need a guy to be a realized star or anything, but most teams seem able to give their lotto picks minutes right out of the gate. If you draft Williams, teach him how to hit threes from the corner and have him come off the bench next to Gay until he gets his feet under him so you can start him for Lyles. Austin's fine for some players, but it's not a place legit prospects should go. The Spurs aren't a contender anymore and can afford to let young guys learn on the job.
This x1000000

[KobesAchilles]

So, you're digging deep and try hard in finding flaws in players who actually would be a good fit on this team but when it comes to your boy Vassell and his flaws, you dismiss it. Got it.
Lol pretty much. Isn’t that how fans work? I mean in my estimation (admittedly not worth much) he’s more of a project than Vassell. You made fun of Vassell’s dribbling skills but atleast he can dribble unlike Williams. Williams also needs to redo his entire shot. It’s not an ugly shot but it’s not NBA ready either. I do like he can shoot a pull up jumper though, that’s nice. I’m not sure he’s fast enough to stay with the people you want him to stay with. He’s got good length and size but I think he’s too big for a SF.

If we drafted him we would have to teach him the corner 3 and to rebound. I don’t see him much as an offensive force. And he’s not a playmaker either. Defense takes more than a year to learn in our system so I’m not too worried about that but I do wonder who we would match him up against. Guy reminds me of Tony Battie and that’s probably why I’m so against him

[SpurPadre]

If the pick came between getting Williams or Isaac Okoro, who would you take?

[Dejounte]

Lol pretty much. Isn’t that how fans work? I mean in my estimation (admittedly not worth much) he’s more of a project than Vassell. You made fun of Vassell’s dribbling skills but atleast he can dribble unlike Williams. Williams also needs to redo his entire shot. It’s not an ugly shot but it’s not NBA ready either. I do like he can shoot a pull up jumper though, that’s nice. I’m not sure he’s fast enough to stay with the people you want him to stay with. He’s got good length and size but I think he’s too big for a SF.

If we drafted him we would have to teach him the corner 3 and to rebound. I don’t see him much as an offensive force. And he’s not a playmaker either. Defense takes more than a year to learn in our system so I’m not too worried about that but I do wonder who we would match him up against. Guy reminds me of Tony Battie and that’s probably why I’m so against him

Redo his shot ... He has one of the most consistent forms and he keeps his shoulders stable in the follow through.

Not a playmaker ... His literal instinct is to pass first. We're not expecting LeBron playmaking here, but this dude is one of the best passing forwards in the draft.

Fuck it, I'm not even gonna bother lol. You've already made up your mind.

Oh man, this is going to be a long two months.

[ace3g]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llf0TncXzR8

He played PG his first 2 years in high school till he had an 8" growth spurt -- :35 mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EGhr9JWrj8

[cd021]

With his lack of shooting and lateral quickness, he's clearly going to be a 4 in the league. He'll still be an option to defender bigger 3s though.

I've noticed that too, he doesn't appear to move all that well laterally. I don't think he's likely to be a 3 in the NBA.

[KobesAchilles]

Redo his shot ... He has one of the most consistent forms and he keeps his shoulders stable in the follow through.

Not a playmaker ... His literal instinct is to pass first. We're not expecting LeBron playmaking here, but this dude is one of the best passing forwards in the draft.

Fuck it, I'm not even gonna bother lol. You've already made up your mind.

Oh man, this is going to be a long two months.

lol yes it is. You could very well be right and KA will eat a big shit sandwich. It happened the year Kawhi rang. I was adamant the Raptors would lose to the 76ers :lol I redeemed myself this year somewhat but I just don’t see it with him. He has a nice high arching shot. I like that. It’s just his feet are set up weird and his shot is slow by NBA standards. He’s a good passer for a forward but he’s not going to initiate offense for others. If I’m not going to get a knock down shooter then I atleast want that bc Pop will play slow all again like an idiot and ruin Williams strengths. If anybody else coached I would be all in for Williams over Vassell but we have Pop :cry

[NickiRasgo]

I won't mind him at 11th pick but what concerns me is that he doesn't have good footwork or lateral movement. So I think he's more like a Rudy Gay and will play mostly @ PF position.

[Dejounte]

lol yes it is. You could very well be right and KA will eat a big shit sandwich. It happened the year Kawhi rang. I was adamant the Raptors would lose to the 76ers :lol I redeemed myself this year somewhat but I just don’t see it with him. He has a nice high arching shot. I like that. It’s just his feet are set up weird and his shot is slow by NBA standards. He’s a good passer for a forward but he’s not going to initiate offense for others. If I’m not going to get a knock down shooter then I atleast want that bc Pop will play slow all again like an idiot and ruin Williams strengths. If anybody else coached I would be all in for Williams over Vassell but we have Pop :cry

I love that you referred to yourself in third person lmao

[cd021]

I won't mind him at 11th pick but what concerns me is that he doesn't have good footwork or lateral movement. So I think he's more like a Rudy Gay and will play mostly @ PF position.
That really stands out. Tbh he reminds me a lot of Al Farouq Aminu-- body wise at least. He probably is a good athleticism and mobility for a four but not so much for a three.

[buujness]

I really like this kid. He's a very smart player for someone so young; you can see it in his help defense and his movement off the ball on offense (he has a knack for finding open space). He has upside as a shooter (84% from the FT line) and he's even shown a bit of playmaking ability out of the pick and roll as a secondary ball-handler. I think he can further develop his ball-handling, too, as his drives show some promise in that area. He also plays hard.

He's a bit slow-footed on defense, so that might limit his upside in terms of versatility. However, he does have room to improve in terms of his footwork, so that might help his mobility a bit. He also tends to gamble on steals and over-help, but that's coachable.

As has been stated, he's very young, so he has a lot of room and time to grow. I'd be very happy to see the Spurs take him.

[spurspl]

there is a potential, poor stats but hes young. If spurs pick him, welcome to austin

[Rummpd]

SI has as potential pick https://www.si.com/nba/2020/08/21/nba-mock-draft-2020-timberwolves-win-lottery

[ZeusWillJudge]

Williams needed another year in college. I don't blame him for wanting to get paid, and there is such a premium on drafting young. But a guy who got 22 minutes off the bench is likely going to be in Austin for a year.

Rebounding is about desire. Technique obviously, but that still comes from desire to be a good rebounder. Maybe a year in the Spurs' system would give him a taste for it. It hasn't done much for LMA, but maybe he would be different.

[phxspurfan]

No Patricks please. Pretty much every Patrick ends up being pretty shitty in the NBA (Ewing and Beverley aside).

[B1gduff]

The only major concern i have with Williams is his lack of Lateral Quickness, maybe he'll improve. But he does seem to have an high Iq, that's allways there.
The guy that he reminds me of abit, is Deng.

[Dejounte]

https://instagram.com/stories/teamunitedhoops/2381439324903586701?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=71mi3joobmpb

https://instagram.com/stories/teamunitedhoops/2381541399029099426?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=od5rx6k25t13

[ace3g]

https://scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/107379086_575247996694304_1150705623832011270_n.jp g?_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=FEvkWbh7eQoAX_UULi7&oh=893ae02d2d5f976c404304107fcb9019&oe=5F6A1270

https://scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/107047324_326820408715423_4482963777156980153_n.jp g?_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=G-dqb2w_nIEAX8rIAMx&oh=4bf53e939839511c25845093aefd7d9b&oe=5F6C0600

https://www.instagram.com/paulytphoto/

https://scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/105940596_1225061394510223_7571601077119041730_n.j pg?_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=ZXmaM1mfpRQAX8S9RvM&oh=5285befda5ecc1463a7d951571a62a12&oe=5F6C79CA

https://scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/82814016_119452766210529_3395838383897702211_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=109&_nc_ohc=e1c0N-xfH3YAX9zt9aS&oh=034a653f8e04ed61998e58c8d1bc69d6&oe=5F6B67F0

https://www.instagram.com/shotmakersclub/

[wildcardX]

I'm leaning slightly more towards Saddiq Bey over Williams at the spot the Spurs are selecting.

[wildbill2u]

We need a 3&D but this guy can't develop to there. You can't teach lateral quickness. Not my first choice at 11, but he may be the best we can do

[Dejounte]

We need a 3&D but this guy can't develop to there. You can't teach lateral quickness. Not my first choice at 11, but he may be the best we can do

When I learn how to edit videos, this will be one of my first videos.... To show that his lateral quickness isn't as bad as people are making it seem.

Even if it was average at best, our defensive scheme for the last few years has been to funnel the opponent's ball handler to our center to stop them at the rim. So getting blown by isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Uriel]

The fact that both ESPN and SI have the Spurs picking him in their first mock drafts since the draft order was finalized is telling to me. Remember, those mock drafts are based not on who the writers think the teams should pick, but who they think they will, based on their intel.

[Ocotillo]

The fact that both ESPN and SI have the Spurs picking him in their first mock drafts since the draft order was finalized is telling to me. Remember, those mock drafts are based not on who the writers think the teams should pick, but who they think they will, based on their intel. Yeah but, I think it's pretty hard to get intel on where the Spurs are thinking. Not saying you are wrong, it's just I question their ability to really have an idea what the Spurs are thinking.

[objective]

I'm repeating myself from the other thread, but I think it's worthy for his thread.

I concede that he's presently not good at guarding quick guards. And while I think he could get better athletically with training to adjust some alleged body issues, the reasonable expectation is that nobody will want him to try to lockdown guards because he can't.

The thing for me is, I want players who can guard their position. If they can guard up or down from their position, that's great. But they need to be able to defend their position. Part of why Forbes is so bad for the team is that he can't defend his position, and Marco played at SF can't defend his spot either (probably not SG either). ETC ETC. But at least guard your man.

And I am sure that Williams can do that with the bigger SFs or 3/4 hybrid players. I think he'll be able to defend the Marcus Morris, or better suited than other Spurs to guard Kawhi. I think he'll be the best Spurs option to go against a Siakam or OG, or Tatum, or TJ Warren, Giannis, Otto Porter, Durant, Ingram, etc etc.

I don't want him guarding Morant or Lillard or Kemba. And the good news is that the Spurs have other guys to check them. I want Murray or White or maybe Keldon or Lonnie on those guys. I want White on Doncic or Trae Young.

And Williams has the added bonus of team defense and some rim protection that makes him playable on top of defending his position.

[Dejounte]

I'm repeating myself from the other thread, but I think it's worthy for his thread.

I concede that he's presently not good at guarding quick guards. And while I think he could get better athletically with training to adjust some alleged body issues, the reasonable expectation is that nobody will want him to try to lockdown guards because he can't.

The thing for me is, I want players who can guard their position. If they can guard up or down from their position, that's great. But they need to be able to defend their position. Part of why Forbes is so bad for the team is that he can't defend his position, and Marco played at SF can't defend his spot either (probably not SG either). ETC ETC. But at least guard your man.

And I am sure that Williams can do that with the bigger SFs or 3/4 hybrid players. I think he'll be able to defend the Marcus Morris, or better suited than other Spurs to guard Kawhi. I think he'll be the best Spurs option to go against a Siakam or OG, or Tatum, or TJ Warren, Giannis, Otto Porter, Durant, Ingram, etc etc.

I don't want him guarding Morant or Lillard or Kemba. And the good news is that the Spurs have other guys to check them. I want Murray or White or maybe Keldon or Lonnie on those guys. I want White on Doncic or Trae Young.

And Williams has the added bonus of team defense and some rim protection that makes him playable on top of defending his position.


https://youtu.be/AMzqrPUCMEM

Pat picking up a guard full court at 10:46. Had him until the end. Honestly, I think there's few in the NBA who can stay in front 100% of the time. On our own team, White does a good job of that, but there's usually switches that happen.

[Sugus]

https://youtu.be/AMzqrPUCMEM

Pat picking up a guard full court at 10:46. Had him until the end. Honestly, I think there's few in the NBA who can stay in front 100% of the time. On our own team, White does a good job of that, but there's usually switches that happen.

That was a great video, thanks for sharing. Look at how PatWill single-handedly forces a 10-sec violation shortly after, 11:56. He seems to be a pesky defender, I like that.

Having watched some more of him from the same game, I'm liking the (possible) pick. I like that Pat's unselfish with the ball, has good movement and knows his spots, he stays with his man and is surprisingly agile/nimble for someone with his size. He tended to defend the rim on a lot of plays, which is interesting, but I also see what Timvp was saying about the rebounds. I haven't seen him try to go for many at all, though he has certain possessions where he boxes out his man (like 15:01), which might be worrisome given the Spurs' actual team construction, which lacks strong rebounders.

But honestly, the one who really caught my eye in the game was Vassell. PatWill far too often was nowhere to be found on offense, his only involvement in a play being receive a pass-dribble once-pass it again, then spot up on the corner and wait for a pass. He didn't really look to gravitate to a dunker's spot or try to crash the offensive boards, far too often "looking in" to the play. He seems to have a nice enough stroke though, with a bit of a slow release as seen at 38:24; I liked his shots, but seemed overly passive. Devin on the other hand, was extremely active: crashing the boards, looking for steals, hustling for loose balls (saves the play and has a nice assist at 39:16, gets a hustle deflection at 42:27, then an airborne block at 43:16). His shot and shooting motion were much more fluid than Williams, but what stood out the most was his confidence - the guy is a born shooter. He can also penetrate off the dribble, as seen on 50:25, unlike Pat who seemed unable to break off his man with dribbling alone.

Probably should post it on the Vassell thread but whatever. What were your concerns regarding Vassell, Dejounte? I'd like to draft them both, and I'm certainly not narrow-sighted enough to claim a prospect above another over a single game, but I'm leaning towards Devin the more I think about it. If he puts a bit of weight, and grows under the Spurs, he could be our wing of the future. I don't know if he has the highest ceiling, but I would for sure walk away a happy man from the draft with a 3&D, modern, prototype player.

[Dejounte]

That was a great video, thanks for sharing. Look at how PatWill single-handedly forces a 10-sec violation shortly after, 11:56. He seems to be a pesky defender, I like that.

Having watched some more of him from the same game, I'm liking the (possible) pick. I like that Pat's unselfish with the ball, has good movement and knows his spots, he stays with his man and is surprisingly agile/nimble for someone with his size. He tended to defend the rim on a lot of plays, which is interesting, but I also see what Timvp was saying about the rebounds. I haven't seen him try to go for many at all, though he has certain possessions where he boxes out his man (like 15:01), which might be worrisome given the Spurs' actual team construction, which lacks strong rebounders.

But honestly, the one who really caught my eye in the game was Vassell. PatWill far too often was nowhere to be found on offense, his only involvement in a play being receive a pass-dribble once-pass it again, then spot up on the corner and wait for a pass. He didn't really look to gravitate to a dunker's spot or try to crash the offensive boards, far too often "looking in" to the play. He seems to have a nice enough stroke though, with a bit of a slow release as seen at 38:24; I liked his shots, but seemed overly passive. Devin on the other hand, was extremely active: crashing the boards, looking for steals, hustling for loose balls (saves the play and has a nice assist at 39:16, gets a hustle deflection at 42:27, then an airborne block at 43:16). His shot and shooting motion were much more fluid than Williams, but what stood out the most was his confidence - the guy is a born shooter. He can also penetrate off the dribble, as seen on 50:25, unlike Pat who seemed unable to break off his man with dribbling alone.

Probably should post it on the Vassell thread but whatever. What were your concerns regarding Vassell, Dejounte? I'd like to draft them both, and I'm certainly not narrow-sighted enough to claim a prospect above another over a single game, but I'm leaning towards Devin the more I think about it. If he puts a bit of weight, and grows under the Spurs, he could be our wing of the future. I don't know if he has the highest ceiling, but I would for sure walk away a happy man from the draft with a 3&D, modern, prototype player.

I attribute Pat's passiveness to being a freshman and Florida State having a system set up like the Spurs. Watching Pat on that team is like watching Derrick (or any other intelligent rookie) in his 1st year on the Spurs: learning the ropes, learning where his spots are, not wanting to step on anybody's toes including the vets, wanting to please the coach by playing the right way, etc.

Regarding Vassell, the context matters, maybe ill go to more detail later but the summary is this:

Poor Kobe-like shot selection, will settle for an awkward long 2 when he has dribbled himself into a defender,

has poor understanding of spacing - has more of a tendency to look for the ball than try to create space for the ball handler

his aggressiveness is due to him being possibly being assigned the team's captain and it being his 2nd year - he knows the system and he's earned his coach's trust,

His defense is tailor made for college, where there's a lot of poor ball handlers and a lot of passing. He gambles for steals a lot and is good at weakside blocking - two strengths that will not be easy to translate to the NBA. Its the same manner with Dejounte.

His good defense was mainly against smaller players. Ive barely seen him guard standard size forwards in college from all the tape ive seen. If we are going to get a "SF" of the future, we need him to be able to guard his own position rather than guard the 1 and 2 otherwise we have another Bryn Forbes situation.

His size. It looks more like 6'6". Expecting players to bulk up easily isnt wise. Its a rare occurrence.

Basically you're seeing the tale of two coins: a Dejounte Murray type defender in Vassell, or a Derrick White type defender in Pat (he has a longer way to go)

[rankingtear]

For those confused as i was before , Pat is a 4 can only guard 4's has potential to guard 3's with some body improvements but unlikely. Most likely his best position in the NBA is a 4.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/DWRpSL6ntYs

Sugus

@4:11 he has a lot of possessions like this where you ask "where is he dribbling to?" And ends up going towards his own teammate and passing it off or takes an awkward shot right there

Another Devin signature ugly possession at 22:35

[look_at_g_shred]

This is MY GUY

[Sugus]

I attribute Pat's passiveness to being a freshman and Florida State having a system set up like the Spurs. Watching Pat on that team is like watching Derrick (or any other intelligent rookie) in his 1st year on the Spurs: learning the ropes, learning where his spots are, not wanting to step on anybody's toes including the vets, wanting to please the coach by playing the right way, etc.

Regarding Vassell, the context matters, maybe ill go to more detail later but the summary is this:

Poor Kobe-like shot selection, will settle for an awkward long 2 when he has dribbled himself into a defender,

has poor understanding of spacing - has more of a tendency to look for the ball than try to create space for the ball handler

his aggressiveness is due to him being possibly being assigned the team's captain and it being his 2nd year - he knows the system and he's earned his coach's trust,

His defense is tailor made for college, where there's a lot of poor ball handlers and a lot of passing. He gambles for steals a lot and is good at weakside blocking - two strengths that will not be easy to translate to the NBA. Its the same manner with Dejounte.

His good defense was mainly against smaller players. Ive barely seen him guard standard size forwards in college from all the tape ive seen. If we are going to get a "SF" of the future, we need him to be able to guard his own position rather than guard the 1 and 2 otherwise we have another Bryn Forbes situation.

His size. It looks more like 6'6". Expecting players to bulk up easily isnt wise. Its a rare occurrence.

Basically you're seeing the tale of two coins: a Dejounte Murray type defender in Vassell, or a Derrick White type defender in Pat (he has a longer way to go)

Hmmm I see what you mean. But I just don't know up to what point we can expect PatWill to "turn it up a notch" if he's been so passive (I assume it's been the same in other games?) on offense thus far. I think sometimes it's cases like you describe, just a player lacking confidence/not being used to a system and stuff, but other times it's cases like Lonnie (not saying the jury is out on him yet, just what he's been showing so far) where they have the physical tools and the game, but can never get out of their own head and assert their will on the court, always tip-toeing and happy to "wait for it" on the corner or 3pt line without doing much. While Vassell, though flawed, played with much more energy and intensity, not only in regards to steals/shots but also the energy he put out on the court overall.

I'll have to watch a few more games of Williams, but right now I'm kind of seeing last year's White. Can he eventually progress to Bubble White? Possibly... Though I'm feeling like it's as much of a long shot as Vassell putting on the muscle to succeed at guarding 3's in the NBA. Both prospects have their flaws.

E: I'd also say that (in regards to the Dejounte/White comparison), while I see the comp between Vassell and DJ (and hope it doesn't turn into the same failure story), I don't really see the comp of PatWill and White. Whenever I'm watching White, he always seems to be an energy ball on defense, constantly shuffling his feet and position and pushing over the defender to go where he wants him to go. PatWill has good pressure (as I pointed out from the last video, that 10 sec violation was all him), but I just don't see him being as active when he has to defend man-to-man. Moreover, he tends to sag off his man to play the rim defender role, which is fine in college especially given his size advantage but could be exploited in the NBA. White is much smarter in that regard, tends to go for offensive fouls which is brilliant in this day and age (I think he leads all guards in charges drawn or something like that). I *could* see PatWill develop into something like White, but it would take an impressive turn up of his motor, which from the footage I've seen doesn't look too likely. If you have a particular game where he was aggressive and seeking his own on both ends of the floor, I'd love to see it.

[Sugus]

https://youtu.be/DWRpSL6ntYs

Sugus

@4:11 he has a lot of possessions like this where you ask "where is he dribbling to?" And ends up going towards his own teammate and passing it off or takes an awkward shot right there

Another Devin signature ugly possession at 22:35

Haha, for sure Kobe-like, without the game to make up for it... Yet. To be honest though, I don't see that kind of decision-making blunders as something that can't be fixed: I see the physical tools are there, he can penetrate and dribble, his shot doesn't look mechanically bad, and he's got a confidence to his game that, beyond the mistakes, is eye-popping. I could see with NBA coaching that he betters his decision making, especially those dribble -> long 2's that he seems to do, because that's just not the way the NBA game is played anymore.

I'm kind of torn here, to be honest. PatWill seems like the more "ready vessel" where he has more physical prowess, and maybe sounder fundamentals, but would have to be taught everything from screening (I don't think I saw him in a P&R set in the game I watched yesterday at all, he seemed to prefer standing out on the perimeter, even though he hesitated on shooting on the rare occasion he did get the ball) to being aggressive on offense, which I have my doubts that can be taught, especially after seeing someone like Keldon as opposed to someone like Lonnie. Whereas Vassell, you would have to cut out his bad habits and work on his playmaking, but his intensity, hustle, and grit are already there, just needs some polishing. I don't know if he can defend larger players (I'd be just fine if he held his own at his position) and his D and spacing awareness need work, but it's a different story than PatWill.

Overall, I'd say I'd be fine with both prospects, to be honest. I can see each of them fail on the NBA level for the flaws aforementioned, just as I could see an organization like the Spurs successfully developing them. It's not a case where I absolutely don't think either will make it, and I for sure would prefer drafting either of them over, for example, Killian Hayes, who doesn't have a different level of talent to me and isn't a position of need.

[Dejounte]

Sugus

Your concerns are valid. I think the difference between the two for me is if I knew nothing about either player and there was an alternate reality #1 where they drafted Devin and an alternate reality #2 where they drafted Pat, I could see myself being more excited about reality #2 because Pat reaching his peak feels more special (because of his size) than Devin reaching his. Whoever the Spurs draft, I'll support no matter what.

[objective]

Hmmm I see what you mean. But I just don't know up to what point we can expect PatWill to "turn it up a notch" if he's been so passive (I assume it's been the same in other games?) on offense thus far. I think sometimes it's cases like you describe, just a player lacking confidence/not being used to a system and stuff, but other times it's cases like Lonnie (not saying the jury is out on him yet, just what he's been showing so far) where they have the physical tools and the game, but can never get out of their own head and assert their will on the court, always tip-toeing and happy to "wait for it" on the corner or 3pt line without doing much. While Vassell, though flawed, played with much more energy and intensity, not only in regards to steals/shots but also the energy he put out on the court overal

I can fill in a little here. Vassell was a bigger part of the FSU offense and more aggressive with his shot because of experience. Kevin O'Connor tweeted back in April that Vassell hit one dribble jumper as a freshman then 39 as a sophomore after improving his handle.

And I posted something about Williams and his assertiveness back in May. Basically, Vassell led FSU in scoring and FGA, and it's worth noting that FSU really spread it around.

Vassell did miss one game that Williams played in, vs Syracuse. And in that game, Williams came off the bench and led FSU in FGA with 14 (his season high), led the team in points with 17 (his major-conference high), tied his season high in minutes, 32 off the bench. When the opportunity was there to step up, he did.

I have no doubt in my mind that if he went back to school he'd be getting a lot more shot opportunities.

[objective]

https://youtu.be/AMzqrPUCMEM

Pat picking up a guard full court at 10:46. Had him until the end. Honestly, I think there's few in the NBA who can stay in front 100% of the time. On our own team, White does a good job of that, but there's usually switches that happen.

While he did fine there, and as pointed out elsewhere can do a lot as far as pressuring and causing violations, my ultimate point is that I'd still rather have White or Murray or maybe Keldon/Lonnie check smaller ballhandlers. I want Williams for the bigger guys. And as a comparison, I do think Okoro, who of course is smaller, does a better job against point guards as far as moving his feet and mirroring. But he's nearly point guard size himself, so he should

[objective]

His defense is tailor made for college, where there's a lot of poor ball handlers and a lot of passing. He gambles for steals a lot and is good at weakside blocking - two strengths that will not be easy to translate to the NBA. Its the same manner with Dejounte.



Thanks for pointing this out. This part about Vassell is good to keep in mind for everyone about college ballhandling and shots, something I tend to forget sometimes.

Lots of bad dribbling and whack shots in college, probably why in conjunction with size and speed differences that a lot of monster block and steal %s in college drastically reduce in the NBA, even for good defenders.

[Sugus]

I can fill in a little here. Vassell was a bigger part of the FSU offense and more aggressive with his shot because of experience. Kevin O'Connor tweeted back in April that Vassell hit one dribble jumper as a freshman then 39 as a sophomore after improving his handle.

And I posted something about Williams and his assertiveness back in May. Basically, Vassell led FSU in scoring and FGA, and it's worth noting that FSU really spread it around.

Vassell did miss one game that Williams played in, vs Syracuse. And in that game, Williams came off the bench and led FSU in FGA with 14 (his season high), led the team in points with 17 (his major-conference high), tied his season high in minutes, 32 off the bench. When the opportunity was there to step up, he did.

I have no doubt in my mind that if he went back to school he'd be getting a lot more shot opportunities.

Hmm that's some interesting info, sad that he only got the opportunity to step up in one game only, but I see where you're coming from. To be honest, I still think a part of "stepping up" in the sense of making your presence felt on the court, shouldn't have to be reliant on a player being the focus of the offense or not; good players (especially players that aren't necessarily drafted with the projection of becoming stars, but more role-player like) should be focusing on doing their things and trying to make the most of possessions on both sides of the ball, even if they're not getting the ball in their hands or having plays called for them, which I didn't see Pat try to capitalize on (albeit in the short time I watched him). He seemed far too content to play the spot-up shooter in the corner role, which we don't really need any more of, but did more solidly on the defensive end.

After watching some additional tape on Achiuwa, though (and I don't want to derail PatWill's draft thread on Precious, I'm just saying), I feel like there's a marked difference in the way both players approach the offensive game. I don't see PW as a player who'll be able to create many shots for himself or others, to me his potential looks to be more of a finisher, but Achiuwa looks much more comfortable handling the ball and putting some pace on whilst bringing the ball up the court, which is a major difference and upgrade even if PA never turns into a proper playmaker. I'm leaning more towards him because of it, since they seem to be about equal in other areas, though I'd be content with both and am confident one of them (or even both) will be available by the time the Spurs are picking.

[Dejounte]

Hmm that's some interesting info, sad that he only got the opportunity to step up in one game only, but I see where you're coming from. To be honest, I still think a part of "stepping up" in the sense of making your presence felt on the court, shouldn't have to be reliant on a player being the focus of the offense or not; good players (especially players that aren't necessarily drafted with the projection of becoming stars, but more role-player like) should be focusing on doing their things and trying to make the most of possessions on both sides of the ball, even if they're not getting the ball in their hands or having plays called for them, which I didn't see Pat try to capitalize on (albeit in the short time I watched him). He seemed far too content to play the spot-up shooter in the corner role, which we don't really need any more of, but did more solidly on the defensive end.

After watching some additional tape on Achiuwa, though (and I don't want to derail PatWill's draft thread on Precious, I'm just saying), I feel like there's a marked difference in the way both players approach the offensive game. I don't see PW as a player who'll be able to create many shots for himself or others, to me his potential looks to be more of a finisher, but Achiuwa looks much more comfortable handling the ball and putting some pace on whilst bringing the ball up the court, which is a major difference and upgrade even if PA never turns into a proper playmaker. I'm leaning more towards him because of it, since they seem to be about equal in other areas, though I'd be content with both and am confident one of them (or even both) will be available by the time the Spurs are picking.

First, you derail this thread with Vassell. Next, you derail this thread with Precious! Tsk tsk (busting your balls)

[objective]

Hmm that's some interesting info, sad that he only got the opportunity to step up in one game only, but I see where you're coming from. To be honest, I still think a part of "stepping up" in the sense of making your presence felt on the court, shouldn't have to be reliant on a player being the focus of the offense or not; good players (especially players that aren't necessarily drafted with the projection of becoming stars, but more role-player like) should be focusing on doing their things and trying to make the most of possessions on both sides of the ball, even if they're not getting the ball in their hands or having plays called for them, which I didn't see Pat try to capitalize on (albeit in the short time I watched him). He seemed far too content to play the spot-up shooter in the corner role, which we don't really need any more of, but did more solidly on the defensive end.

After watching some additional tape on Achiuwa, though (and I don't want to derail PatWill's draft thread on Precious, I'm just saying), I feel like there's a marked difference in the way both players approach the offensive game. I don't see PW as a player who'll be able to create many shots for himself or others, to me his potential looks to be more of a finisher, but Achiuwa looks much more comfortable handling the ball and putting some pace on whilst bringing the ball up the court, which is a major difference and upgrade even if PA never turns into a proper playmaker. I'm leaning more towards him because of it, since they seem to be about equal in other areas, though I'd be content with both and am confident one of them (or even both) will be available by the time the Spurs are picking.

with Williams ... not making a 100% guaranteed comp, but Kawhi Leonard had plenty of moments his first few years in the league where he was just 'waiting in the corner' or letting the game come to him. He didn't go grab the ball from Parker, Pop had to jump up and down and yell at Parker. Kawhi did almost nothing in the first 2 games of the 2014 finals that had the fans and media getting on his ass. Kawhi was so into filling his role as requested, that when a buffoonish ejection coach Boylen completely forgot to sub Kawhi back intot he second half of a game, that Kawhi didn't get in his face and demand to get back in and instead just sat on the bench waiting to be called. And if an uncle wants Kawhi to do something ... well, you can see where I'm going.

So I am not put off by Williams accepting his role, including accepting a bench role. That to me is being coachable. The team had it's hierarchy and it's system and Williams was the 18 year old freshman who went there to learn and improve. When he had the opportunity to step in and step up, he did. That's good enough for me.

[DAF86]

Also Williams usage % was the second highest on the entire Florida State team. Higher than Vassell's. I don't know where this perception that he was a passive by-stander while Devin was an agressive go-getter comes from.

[Seventyniner]

with Williams ... not making a 100% guaranteed comp, but Kawhi Leonard had plenty of moments his first few years in the league where he was just 'waiting in the corner' or letting the game come to him. He didn't go grab the ball from Parker, Pop had to jump up and down and yell at Parker. Kawhi did almost nothing in the first 2 games of the 2014 finals that had the fans and media getting on his ass. Kawhi was so into filling his role as requested, that when a buffoonish ejection coach Boylen completely forgot to sub Kawhi back intot he second half of a game, that Kawhi didn't get in his face and demand to get back in and instead just sat on the bench waiting to be called. And if an uncle wants Kawhi to do something ... well, you can see where I'm going.

So I am not put off by Williams accepting his role, including accepting a bench role. That to me is being coachable. The team had it's hierarchy and it's system and Williams was the 18 year old freshman who went there to learn and improve. When he had the opportunity to step in and step up, he did. That's good enough for me.

Good post. Hopefully other prospects see Number Two's career progression with the Spurs and are willing to take a couple of years to put everything together and then having that "aha!" moment, rather than expecting to start and get lots of minutes immediately.

I didn't watch early-career Giannis, but his stats in the first two years were pedestrian as well. Worse than Number Two's in fact.

[Sugus]

with Williams ... not making a 100% guaranteed comp, but Kawhi Leonard had plenty of moments his first few years in the league where he was just 'waiting in the corner' or letting the game come to him. He didn't go grab the ball from Parker, Pop had to jump up and down and yell at Parker. Kawhi did almost nothing in the first 2 games of the 2014 finals that had the fans and media getting on his ass. Kawhi was so into filling his role as requested, that when a buffoonish ejection coach Boylen completely forgot to sub Kawhi back intot he second half of a game, that Kawhi didn't get in his face and demand to get back in and instead just sat on the bench waiting to be called. And if an uncle wants Kawhi to do something ... well, you can see where I'm going.

So I am not put off by Williams accepting his role, including accepting a bench role. That to me is being coachable. The team had it's hierarchy and it's system and Williams was the 18 year old freshman who went there to learn and improve. When he had the opportunity to step in and step up, he did. That's good enough for me.

I'm not gonna lie, I see your point, but to me it doesn't translate to every prospect. Kawhi, for as much of a bitch as he is, is also an incredible player and talent, and I wouldn't assume that just because Kawhi particularly was initially hesitant at "taking the reigns" and slowly developed his role, that every player that does it is on a similar trajectory or close to it. From the admittedly not much of PW that I've seen, he gives off that rookie Kawhi vibe you're talking about, but I'm not confident the true "Kawhi" part about transforming into a complete & elite player is there. To me it's just like looking at any lanky young prospect and going "well, if he fills out like Giannis did, you got a superstar there..." which while true, is much more often a miss than a hit. There's only one Giannis, and I don't recall many players on Kawhi's trajectory (and who managed to reach such a ceiling from where they were pre-draft).

So it's a big maybe for me. I will say though, that I don't dislike PW at all, even though I've been critical of him here; my personal board goes something like Achiuwa -> PW -> Okoro -> Pokusevski -> Vassell/Hayes/other. Of course, mentioning only the prospects likely to be there at #11, though I am holding out hope for a draft day trade.

[ginobilized]

Lots of good info here. I’d add that the same foresight, eye for talent and player development program that chose and developed Kawhi is still likely in the organization. If there’s a gem available at 11, they will get him. Though it is more likely that they have to take more of a calculated guess with this particular draft. If they take PW, they truly see something special there. Only how many weeks left?!?!��

[RC_Drunkford]

Lots of good info here. I’d add that the same foresight, eye for talent and player development program that chose and developed Kawhi is still likely in the organization. If there’s a gem available at 11, they will get him. Though it is more likely that they have to take more of a calculated guess with this particular draft. If they take PW, they truly see something special there. Only how many weeks left?!?!��

Not really. Budenholzer wanted Kawhi and Chad Forcier developed him together with Chip. They both not here anymore

[phxspurfan]

He's the CDR of this year. Even though his height works in the modern NBA he probably won't make it due to lack of IQ/NBA level skills.

[ace3g]

https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/118268646_160550689005539_6744147546669836143_n.jp g?_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=111&_nc_ohc=nsMTX7VL28YAX-e8fX2&oh=ffddd05f3734e1764bbae2dbba5ce078&oe=5F6E5C5C

https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/118146733_2852250995009896_5026806581872181532_n.j pg?_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=i1eJYElOeWUAX9Jf3hG&oh=65f0b373753f199ccc8121ff1b07c942&oe=5F6D6B79

https://www.instagram.com/shotime_photography/

[rankingtear]

Passiveness is probably due to this: "Game moves a little too quick for him at times", That's what pop always say regarding Lonnie, he's one of the youngest players in the draft so it's not that bad. Scouts think his potential is through the roof, with his defensive instincts, offensive baseline and frame that can probably make him one of the strongest players in his position if he fills out.

[ZeusWillJudge]

He's plenty tall. If Keldon can grow an inch, Pat can grow an inch.


Just send him to the Spurs' length coach... he'll be fine. :D


I don't know if most of you watched him play. TIMVP calls him an anemic rebounder. He was almost a non-rebounder. He picked up boards because he was 6'8" and playing against college competition, off the bench. Mostly he just fielded what came his way. He had a good game against a short-handed UNC team, but other than that he didn't do much of anything to stand out all year. To me he looks lazy.

Edit: I just did a quick check. Half his rebounds were offensive. I can tell you it's not because he was in there rooting for them. If the Spurs were to spend #11 on this guy, there would be an epic meltdown by mid-season.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Not really. Budenholzer wanted Kawhi and Chad Forcier developed him together with Chip. They both not here anymore


Forcier was a big loss. A lot more could be said about that, but I won't.

[Atl Spur]

18 yrs old..........enough said! Hasn’t even stop physically developing yet

[ZeusWillJudge]

18 yrs old..........enough said! Hasn’t even stop physically developing yet


Enough said? Well sheeit! Sign him. He's 18 and that's all that needs to be said. The Spurs best draft pick since 1997, so pick a guy who's not ready and nobody thinks has superstar upside. Because he's 18.

You must be sharing this account, because one person couldn't come up with this much stupid.

[duncan2150]

Just send him to the Spurs' length coach... he'll be fine. :D


I don't know if most of you watched him play. TIMVP calls him an anemic rebounder. He was almost a non-rebounder. He picked up boards because he was 6'8" and playing against college competition, off the bench. Mostly he just fielded what came his way. He had a good game against a short-handed UNC team, but other than that he didn't do much of anything to stand out all year. To me he looks lazy.

Edit: I just did a quick check. Half his rebounds were offensive. I can tell you it's not because he was in there rooting for them. If the Spurs were to spend #11 on this guy, there would be an epic meltdown by mid-season.

If you take williams that's not for his rebounds. That's not a concern for me.

If you take him it's for his athletism, defensive potential and the flashes of good offense ( drive, shoot) and to play in majority the three and some 4.

[cd021]

If you take williams that's not for his rebounds. That's not a concern for me.

If you take him it's for his athletism, defensive potential and the flashes of good offense ( drive, shoot) and to play in majority the three and some 4.

He seems a lot more like a 4 that can guard some 3's tbh. Not a knock, per say but I don't think he is an NBA full-time SF.

[duncan2150]

I agree he is a Sf/Pf. I just see him more as a SF now but he can play both positions.

[ZeusWillJudge]

He seems a lot more like a 4 that can guard some 3's tbh. Not a knock, per say but I don't think he is an NBA full-time SF.

It's not about the rebound numbers. It's about passivity. I had a perception of him being lazy, but it could be that he's just heavy-footed. He also looked like he was having to think about things while he was doing them.

I think a lot of people are basing their "opinions" on internet stories. And I think a lot of the writers are basing their stories on what someone else has written. Hell, there are "scouting reports" that talk about him being a good rebounder. I saw one report that called him a good shot-blocker, and then later said that he's not much of a shot-blocker.

The guy isn't ready now, and I don't think he's got such ridiculous upside that he merits throwing the 11 pick at him. Tyler Bey shot 42% from 3P and is a much better defender and a great rebounder. Saddiq Bey shot 45% from 3P and has at least as much upside (I think more), and he's only 18 months older than Williams. Both of the Bey brothers can defend more than one position.

I'll say it again - if the Spurs spend the 11 pick on him, it will be a tragedy.

[rankingtear]

Yeah didn't like him at first glance, but since reading scouts are high on him i did more digging.

- He reworked his shot between high school and college, improved his FT% (84%) and mid-range game.
- His 3pt% suffered because in these kind of shots he's thinking about the form too much, more reps would probably fix it.
- His better on dribble jumpers (70th percentile) , saddiq bey is (39th percentile )
- His great first step , strength to dislodge defenders and high elevation and high release in his shot make his mid range close to unguardable in the nba ( see kawhi , rui ).
- Scout also point to his point forward skills in AAU as room for growth, and his college numbers also back it up (90th percentile) running the pnr.
- He's also a good cutter (63rd percentile ) and opportunistic offensive rebounder 6.9 ORB%
- He addressed the passivity thing in the stadium interview, he said he just didn't see most of the opportunities , only after watching the film did he saw it.

[BackHome]

Out of all the picks we can get just pick someone who loves the game has high Basketball IQ and has a great work ethic. It don’t matter to me if it’s Poku, Bey, Precious, or Williams I just want another player that has some dog in him like Keldon does.

[Truth4sale$]

If the Spurs were contenders, I would go with Saddiq Bey because he is ready now, but I want William's because I see huge upside with his height, and length. He could really develop under into a very good combo forward. I can see him guarding any position on the floor with the one exception of superfast point guards such as De'arron Fox.

[DAF86]

It's not about the rebound numbers. It's about passivity. I had a perception of him being lazy, but it could be that he's just heavy-footed. He also looked like he was having to think about things while he was doing them.

I think a lot of people are basing their "opinions" on internet stories. And I think a lot of the writers are basing their stories on what someone else has written. Hell, there are "scouting reports" that talk about him being a good rebounder. I saw one report that called him a good shot-blocker, and then later said that he's not much of a shot-blocker.

The guy isn't ready now, and I don't think he's got such ridiculous upside that he merits throwing the 11 pick at him. Tyler Bey shot 42% from 3P and is a much better defender and a great rebounder. Saddiq Bey shot 45% from 3P and has at least as much upside (I think more), and he's only 18 months older than Williams. Both of the Bey brothers can defend more than one position.

I'll say it again - if the Spurs spend the 11 pick on him, it will be a tragedy.

Patrick and Saddiq are both among my top 5 targets, so I'm fine with the Spurs picking either. Saddiq is the more ready now player but he doesn't have much upside. The chances of him ever being more than a 3 and D guy are very small. Patrick is more raw but shows a lot more promise. That's why I prefer him between the two.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, Saddiq has no burst to his first step and has handles like a big man-- afraid to dribble in traffic.

[Truth4sale$]

Spurs have to find someone who can develop into a franchise player or something resembling it. Many guys at this spot are one dimensional. Gotta find the guy who checks off most of the boxes.

[KobesAchilles]

Spurs have to find someone who can develop into a franchise player or something resembling it. Many guys at this spot are one dimensional. Gotta find the guy who checks off most of the boxes.
It’s a weird spot to be in with the 11th pick but finding a franchise player just almost doesn’t happen with such a late pick. There are rare exceptions but off the top of my head I can only think of 4 in somewhat recent memory: Dirk, Kawhi, Kobe, and Greek. I would just be happy with a new player who can rim run and play defense. I like Achiwa over Williams. He’s bigger, taller, and longer. I don’t think Williams can guard 3s or be a rim protector but I think Achiwa can become a rim protector. I’m not saying he’s an all star but he’s a better fit for our team than Poetl and really could end up starting by seasons end.

[Dejounte]

It’s a weird spot to be in with the 11th pick but finding a franchise player just almost doesn’t happen with such a late pick. There are rare exceptions but off the top of my head I can only think of 4 in somewhat recent memory: Dirk, Kawhi, Kobe, and Greek. I would just be happy with a new player who can rim run and play defense. I like Achiwa over Williams. He’s bigger, taller, and longer. I don’t think Williams can guard 3s or be a rim protector but I think Achiwa can become a rim protector. I’m not saying he’s an all star but he’s a better fit for our team than Poetl and really could end up starting by seasons end.

You've got to check out Jalen Smith, my friend. I've watched Precious intensively, and now I'm doing the same with Jalen. He's a solid player and does the things you mention in your post.

[R. DeMurre]

It’s a weird spot to be in with the 11th pick but finding a franchise player just almost doesn’t happen with such a late pick. There are rare exceptions but off the top of my head I can only think of 4 in somewhat recent memory: Dirk, Kawhi, Kobe, and Greek. I would just be happy with a new player who can rim run and play defense. .

Jokic, Gobert, & Siakam were all beyond #11 too... Maybe not at the level of those 4, but still great finds!

[mo7888]

Jokic, Gobert, & Siakam were all beyond #11 too... Maybe not at the level of those 4, but still great finds!

That's why picking up a 2nd 1st rd pick should be a real consideration for us. It's a crap shoot at our range so if we double our picks we increase our chance of finding a franchise player

[KobesAchilles]

Jokic, Gobert, & Siakam were all beyond #11 too... Maybe not at the level of those 4, but still great finds!
I’m not saying we can’t find an All Star. Just not a franchise player. None of those guys are one. As good as Jokic is, he is so bad defensively that they will never advance far with him as the best player. I mean Murray has to score 50 for them to have a chance to beat the Jazz :lol

[CGD]

This is the guy

[look_at_g_shred]

Saddiq Bey is just a taller Wesley Matthews

[ace3g]

This was from March 31, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQfo9gYxYs

[phxspurfan]

Omg stop with this the dude sucks ass

[kobyz]

I think spurs gonna pick precious achiuwa over him, a little bit more intriguing for the direction they trying to go

[kobyz]

Patrick seems like a young boris diaw

[ZeusWillJudge]

Saddiq Bey is just a taller Wesley Matthews


LMAO! "Just"? We should be so lucky. Matthews started 43 games his rookie season, for a Jazz team that won 53 games, in a loaded Western Conference. Bey is a much better 3P shooter, and his college stats are mostly better than Matthews' were, against tougher competition.

A taller Wes Matthews? Gimme one.

[look_at_g_shred]

LMAO! "Just"? We should be so lucky. Matthews started 43 games his rookie season, for a Jazz team that won 53 games, in a loaded Western Conference. Bey is a much better 3P shooter, and his college stats are mostly better than Matthews' were, against tougher competition.

A taller Wes Matthews? Gimme one.
I didn't mean that as a sleight. His ceiling isn't the sky, it's the roof.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I didn't mean that as a sleight. His ceiling isn't the sky, it's the roof.


I misread you then. It's easy enough to do here.

I just keep seeing people comment here who weren't willing to let go of the playoff streak this season, but don't understand that these high-ceiling gambles aren't going to reach their potential by December. If the Spurs draft one of those, they aren't going to pay off for a couple of seasons at least. The meltdown over a REAL rebuild will be epic.

[look_at_g_shred]

I misread you then. It's easy enough to do here.

I just keep seeing people comment here who weren't willing to let go of the playoff streak this season, but don't understand that these high-ceiling gambles aren't going to reach their potential by December. If the Spurs draft one of those, they aren't going to pay off for a couple of seasons at least. The meltdown over a REAL rebuild will be epic.
I feel like Pat Williams has so much potential (just turned 19) but I also know it'll take a few years before he's close to what he could be.

[ace3g]

Working out with
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and De'Andre Hunter

CE9zIeIlexz

[duncan2k5]

Enough said? Well sheeit! Sign him. He's 18 and that's all that needs to be said. The Spurs best draft pick since 1997, so pick a guy who's not ready and nobody thinks has superstar upside. Because he's 18.

You must be sharing this account, because one person couldn't come up with this much stupid.

This was actually pretty funny

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/DXContent/status/1304481538701225984?s=19

[Dejounte]

Patrick Williams hard at work on his dribble game:

https://instagram.com/stories/theguardwhisperer/2398116589952495572?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=1jsd2u6g3ee3d

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1305611388791009283

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1305611496039350272

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1305611629925748739

CFAicqdFRjM

[Dejounte]

ace3g that's dedication. How did you upload those?

[ace3g]

ace3g (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=2345) that's dedication. How did you upload those?

This site allows you to view and download photos/stories from IG accounts (minus locked)

https://imginn.com/

Game changer for me because it is one of the social media platforms (that and TikTok) that I'll never join.

[timvp]

Good to see Patrick Williams working with Olin Simplis. Of the big point guards in the league, he's worked with most of them -- most notably SGA and Dinwiddie. I think Williams is most likely an interior player. But, man, if he's becomes a legit three, he'd look like the no-brainer pick at 11 in retrospect.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Good to see Patrick Williams working with Olin Simplis. Of the big point guards in the league, he's worked with most of them -- most notably SGA and Dinwiddie. I think Williams is most likely an interior player. But, man, if he's becomes a legit three, he'd look like the no-brainer pick at 11 in retrospect.

Samanic has been working with him. Simplis throws so much at young guys that the game slows down for them - at least for the good ones.

I still have my doubts about where his niche is going to be. There's threes, and there's threes. Even with everything he gets out of working with Simplis, he'd need to add about 40-50 points onto his 3P% to be the kind of 3 that everyone covets. And that's assuming that he's figured out that he's going to have to be more active on both ends. But I guess anything is possible.

Still... doesn't it bother you a little to say, "If he just improves his shooting, and his athleticism, and his rebounding, he could become a really good player"? It feels to me like you could say that about a lot of players.

[Dejounte]

Samanic has been working with him. Simplis throws so much at young guys that the game slows down for them - at least for the good ones.

I still have my doubts about where his niche is going to be. There's threes, and there's threes. Even with everything he gets out of working with Simplis, he'd need to add about 40-50 points onto his 3P% to be the kind of 3 that everyone covets. And that's assuming that he's figured out that he's going to have to be more active on both ends. But I guess anything is possible.

Still... doesn't it bother you a little to say, "If he just improves his shooting, and his athleticism, and his rebounding, he could become a really good player"? It feels to me like you could say that about a lot of players.

Source on Samanic working with Simplis?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm on the Patrick Williams bandwagon. Would be a good #11 pick, I believe.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Source on Samanic working with Simplis?


I'll see if I can dig something up.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Source on Samanic working with Simplis?


That was easier than I expected. I didn't know if there was going to be a published source. Here's one:

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/spurs-samanic-has-been-training-with-famed-player-development-coach-simplis

[timvp]

Still... doesn't it bother you a little to say, "If he just improves his shooting, and his athleticism, and his rebounding, he could become a really good player"? It feels to me like you could say that about a lot of players.

:lol

Williams and Poku are close to the same in amount of work needed, if we're being honest. The main difference is Williams' floor is a counterfeit Rodney Rogers, while Poku's floor is Calista Flockhart.

[DAF86]

Good to see Patrick Williams working with Olin Simplis. Of the big point guards in the league, he's worked with most of them -- most notably SGA and Dinwiddie. I think Williams is most likely an interior player. But, man, if he's becomes a legit three, he'd look like the no-brainer pick at 11 in retrospect.

Williams is my second target behind Pokusevski, so I've seen quite a bit of full games from him (also Vassell). I agree with you that he seems a bit flat footed on the perimeter, but one thing to consider is that Florida State's coach had him performing full court press on opposing point guards quite a bit, tbh. Many times he would get blown by, but the fact remains that his coach had faith on him keeping up with opposing PG's (so maybe he knows something we don't?), and he also got plenty of reps doing that, so he wouldn't feel too much like a fish out of water trying to guard on the perimeter in the NBA.

[Dejounte]

That was easier than I expected. I didn't know if there was going to be a published source. Here's one:

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/spurs-samanic-has-been-training-with-famed-player-development-coach-simplis

Oh THAT guy. Pat Williams agency must be Team Wasserman then.

[Dejounte]

CFLXJGmpQW2

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1306382314813882368

[ace3g]

https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/119607707_676409116632270_1885116634492929577_n.jp g?_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=WXhzjgt_7bIAX8Ifa--&oh=6d92e37c84587a182201ac1932f72de8&oe=5F666A1F

[keithington1]

My playstyle comparison in his prime would be Josh Smith. Give me the at all day.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/alderalmo/status/1305914979124686848?s=20

[rankingtear]

https://twitter.com/alderalmo/status/1305914979124686848?s=20

Disaster for Williams if knicks draft him. They can't develop players.

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1308242862266396673

[ginobilized]

Good finds! He already dribbles better than DJ.

[rankingtear]

Without many obvious stars in the draft, teams sound enticed by the idea of a 6'8", 225-pound forward with the ability to hit threes, shoot off the dribble, live-dribble pass and blow up plays defensively. Being the youngest NCAA prospect eligible only creates the perception that there's more upside to unlock. Williams figures to draw looks from teams in the No. 8-14 range. -Bleacher Report

[dbestpro]

I like Williams and like his physical play. For some reason he reminds me of Draymond Green but puts the ball on the floor better.

[ace3g]

CFacD6hl1vk

[BackHome]

I would like him a lot better if he could rebound like Green to be honest but I keep asking myself is he better PF then Smith is? I guess he is slightly better when it comes to passing and he gets steals so he is a little quicker and has better handles then Smith. While Smith is a much better rebounder and shot blocker I think they would be about equal on the 3 point shooting.

[Dejounte]

I would like him a lot better if he could rebound like Green to be honest but I keep asking myself is he better PF then Smith is? I guess he is slightly better when it comes to passing and he gets steals so he is a little quicker and has better handles then Smith. While Smith is a much better rebounder and shot blocker I think they would be about equal on the 3 point shooting.

You're also dealing with more hypotheticals with Pat since he's more raw with less minutes, and less proven stats. Question is if he can put it together vs the more pressure tested Smith, where you know what you're getting.

[BackHome]

Yeah I keep thinking he might be the next KY with out the Uncle and the bitch syndrome but I realize that the chances of that happening again are slim to none.

[rankingtear]

Patrick Williams is a mold type / jack of all master of none like prospect much like Keldon, the frame, defensive instincts, shooting touch, and decisions making are there at a base level and it depends on his work ethic and the teams vision to make him to whatever player they envision him to be. He has no fleshed out game yet so he is easier to mold.

Heard somewhere Tim Thomas comparison.

[objective]

It's crazy to me to see how big his legs still are. They are just massive, maybe too massive. He needs to skip leg day for while.

Anyways, more recent youtubes


https://youtu.be/UGev_YGXvfk


https://youtu.be/ps56N9ZBhQM

[BackHome]

Thanks for posting vids Objective

I think he is a smart kid and I think he can improve on his defense awareness so he should be a plus defender he just won’t be able to guard fleet footed guards in the nba. I also think he can fit in with Luka and Keldon who should be our offensive threats in the future. He is not my top pick but I would not be upset if Spurs pick him as they looking at his potential.

[kobyz]

Could be next Ron Artest

[DAF86]

I would like him a lot better if he could rebound like Green to be honest but I keep asking myself is he better PF then Smith is? I guess he is slightly better when it comes to passing and he gets steals so he is a little quicker and has better handles then Smith. While Smith is a much better rebounder and shot blocker I think they would be about equal on the 3 point shooting.

They are very different players though. Williams is more of a 4/3 while Smith is a 4/5. Smith offensive games is basically spotting up and setting picks, Williams is a ball handler with a pull up game. Patrick seems like a low floor/high ceiling player, Smith like a high floor/low ceiling one.

[BackHome]

I see your point I am just trying to see who fits better with the young guys we got right now and yes I understand pick best player available to a degree. I think it just comes to what we want more offense go with Williams and more defense go with Smith. Just curious DAF who do you think is a better fit for the Spurs?

[DAF86]

I see your point I am just trying to see who fits better with the young guys we got right now and yes I understand pick best player available to a degree. I think it just comes to what we want more offense go with Williams and more defense go with Smith. Just curious DAF who do you think is a better fit for the Spurs?

That's relative, imho. If you want more inside defense sure, but Williams is better equipped than Smith to stay with guys on the perimeter.

Williams is my second choice after Poku but I have cooled off a bit on him. I don't dislike picking Smith either since I think he could be contributor since day 1 but I would just prefer picking a bonafide forward than a guy I suspect will endup playing more center than forward in his career.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/1313625489639006208?s=09

Not too long ago was Pat a mid first round pick. Now he's getting buzz as a top 10 pick. What a weak draft up top this draft is.

Pat hasn't nearly shown enough to deserve to be top 10. He's good but not eye popping top 10 good.

Also funny that Mike can't say any criticisms about players in order to maintain his good rapport with them. I like him better when he's interviewing players.

[rankingtear]

He's a Bam level prospect

- youngest college basketball prospect
- nba outlier strength
- makes advance level pnr reads for his size
- can get to his spot consistently
- played for a loaded college team

[look_at_g_shred]

Lets!Fucking!Go! This is my guy and has been from the start!

[Uriel]

FWIW, he seems to be the consensus pick for the Spurs among most mock drafts.

https://www.nba.com/article/2020/08/20/2020-consensus-mock-draft

[rankingtear]

All recently updated intel based mock still has Pat Williams to the Spurs even over Vassell. The Ringer, Bleacher, The Athletic and SI.

[Uriel]

Yup. I don't think I've seen so many mock drafts congregating on a single player for the Spurs since Davis Bertans. Barring a major unforseen event (like Obi Toppin falling to #11), this in all likelihood is our guy.

[ginobilized]

Williams switchability on defense makes him an intruiging prospect.
If the character, work ethic and IQ are there, the Spurs should grab him if available.
No doubt, the Spurs know who he is.

If he is the Spurs choice, would the Knicks take him just to add more insult and injury to us?
Damn, this is the weirdest draft ever!!!!

[Drom John]

Kevin O'Connor: The Ringer: NBA Draft Guide: Mock Draft
updated 10.14


11 San Antonio Spurs

Williams is increasingly receiving hype as a mid-late lottery choice due to his rare blend of size and scoring upside. The Spurs could use a piece to develop and possibly build around in the coming years; Williams has the type of traits that make a prospect worth gambling on.
PATRICK WILLIAMS
Wing, Florida State, freshman

Hustle Hustle
Perimeter Shooting Perimeter Shooting
Shot Blocking Shot Blocking
Off-Ball Defense Off-Ball Defense
PTS 9.2 16.4 per 40
AST 1.0 1.8 per 40
3PT% 32.0 50 3PA
FT% 83.8 74 FTA

Age18.8
Wingspan6'11''
Height6'8''
Weight225

Versatile offensive threat who can serve as a shot creator or as a screener; he can fill a range of roles.
Shades Of: Danilo Gallinari, P.J. Tucker
PLUSES

Efficient at-rim scorer who uses either hand on athletic extended finishes.
Talented scorer off the dribble who can rise—and sometimes hang —before draining tough, contested jumpers.
Sound decision-maker who plays within the system. He doesn’t pause possessions; he keeps the ball moving. Nor does he force bad shots; he looks for an open man.
Good playmaker for his size due to his solid handle and excellent passing vision. He loves to use hesitations, especially in the pick-and-roll, and he can deliver accurate passes off the dribble.
Does the little things like cutting, screening, and rebounding. With his size and skill, it’s projectable for a team to use him like a big as an on-ball screener who can pop for 3s or dive to the rim.
Smart, athletic team defender who communicates and disrupts actions with timely help defense.
Gritty player who hustles hard on defense. He’s had a handful of inspired chasedown blocks. As a rim protector, he’ll put in multiple efforts to get stops.
Flashes versatility on-ball in a switch-heavy scheme at Florida State. With improvements to his athleticism, he could shine.

MINUSES

Still developing as a spot-up shooter. He had to improve his form in high school to become a good free throw shooter (84 percent), but still struggles off the catch with a low, slow release.
He totaled nearly double the number of turnovers (50) as he did assists (29). Despite a knack for playmaking, he got called for countless travels due to raw footwork and forced drives into traffic.
Stiff man-to-man defender without the versatility to reliably switch onto guards and wings. He’s clunky moving laterally and changing directions, so he gets burned regularly.

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/ace3g/status/1321692723120951297

[rankingtear]

Ryen Russillo podcast:

- hearing Patrick Williams for SAS for a while now
- most people think he would not fall to 11, ceiling is at 4 and floor is at 7 ( DET )
- Wasserman also hearing Pat at 7 for DET
- Kevin O' Connor hearing 8 for NYK
- Jeremy Woo SI hearing Pat would go before Vassell

[rankingtear]

1323478025242058753

[Dejounte]

A lot of prospects i wouldn't mind for the Spurs to draft, Pat is one of them. Draft night can't come soon enough!

[Degoat]

I definitely wouldn’t mind Pat at 11 but say he does go in the top 10 then that means at least 1 player will fall to the spurs at 11

[TD 21]

Yeah, I'd be fine either way with drafting him or him going before 11 and someone from the projected top 10 slipping.

My concern with him though is that because he's regarded as the ideal modern archetype, people are more so infatuated with the idea of him (based on the unexpected heights hit by the likes of George, Scumbag, Butler, Middleton, etc.) than the reality, which is that he doesn't do any one thing particularly well nor is he some freak athlete. Marcus Morris and James Johnson seem like realistic outcomes.

[Dhbsr555]

Does Williams have an uncle though I want answers

[DAF86]

Yeah, I'd be fine either way with drafting him or him going before 11 and someone from the projected top 10 slipping.

My concern with him though is that because he's regarded as the ideal modern archetype, people are more so infatuated with the idea of him (based on the unexpected heights hit by the likes of George, Scumbag, Butler, Middleton, etc.) than the reality, which is that he doesn't do any one thing particularly well nor is he some freak athlete. Marcus Morris and James Johnson seem like realistic outcomes.

I would be more than happy with a Marcus Morris.

[Dejounte]

I would be more than happy with a Marcus Morris.

Without the fake bravado, I hope.

[objective]

nor is he some freak athlete. Marcus Morris and James Johnson seem like realistic outcomes.

I think some elements of his athleticism are close to 'freak' and better than Morris or Johnson ever showed. That vertical reach and second jump stand out to me. The benefit of freaky big thighs I suppose. Doesn't seem to help in anything else, but he pops up quick and that's helped make his weakside help and blocks look good because he actually might be a little slow to react there but the pogo pop gets him in play.

[rankingtear]

Some scouts and executives believe Williams has a promise to the Pistons if he’s still on the board here. - LA Times

[ace3g]

Some scouts and executives believe Williams has a promise to the Pistons if he’s still on the board here. - LA Times


John Hollinger of The Athletic (https://theathletic.com/2188482/2020/11/10/2020-nba-mock-draft-whos-going-where-in-the-first-round/):
The hottest draft rumor is that Williams has a promise from the Pistons, or at the very least that they’re extremely interested in him.

Detroit just hired Troy Weaver as general manager. While he worked under Sam Presti in Oklahoma City, the Thunder frequently drafted developing long athletic players – like Williams. Oklahoma City also had multiple rumored promises pan out (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/05/29/rumor-thunder-promised-to-draft-cameron-payne-no-14/).
So, circumstantially, this makes sense as something the Pistons would do.

[Dejounte]

So, Sekou is a bust? Or do they envision him and Pat at the 3 and 4?

[Ocotillo]

So, Sekou is a bust? Or do they envision him and Pat at the 3 and 4? I wonder if the Spurs could snag him and develop him? Throw in as part of a DDR trade?

[TD 21]

Doumbouya was selected by the previous regime, but selecting Williams wouldn't say anything about his standing in the organization the same way the Magic selecting Isaac didn't about Gordon. They'd just be picking who they perceive to have the highest upside available.

Neither is a surefire prospect as to be concerned with how they'd work together in the future and I doubt the new regime would be so quick to give up on such a raw player.

[The Truth #6]

Perhaps a bit overstated.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/11/10/21556874/2020-nba-draft-patrick-williams-florida-state

[ZeusWillJudge]

Damn, the mocks are really locked on on Williams to the Spurs. Other players are all over the place, but he's just glued to that #11 slot on most of them.

I just saw that CBS sports has the Spurs second round pick being used on Jordan Nwora. I think all these mocks are full of shit... until they agree with me. :lol

[paperboy77]

I think some elements of his athleticism are close to 'freak' and better than Morris or Johnson ever showed. That vertical reach and second jump stand out to me. The benefit of freaky big thighs I suppose. Doesn't seem to help in anything else, but he pops up quick and that's helped make his weakside help and blocks look good because he actually might be a little slow to react there but the pogo pop gets him in play.

A little slow to react is what I see. He doesn’t quite shift laterally too well. Somebody pointed out a guy from Syracuse. Looks like a hidden gem to me. Has some offensive moves I guess that reminded me of KG.

[Dejounte]

A little slow to react is what I see. He doesn’t quite shift laterally too well. Somebody pointed out a guy from Syracuse. Looks like a hidden gem to me. Has some offensive moves I guess that reminded me of KG.

Syracuse? Who?

[paperboy77]

:wakeup

[paperboy77]

Syracuse? Who?

De Paul.. Paul Reed. Saw a couple of highlights and saw some movements that reminded me of KG. NO ONE is KG!

[Dejounte]

De Paul.. Paul Reed. Saw a couple of highlights and saw some movements that reminded me of KG. NO ONE is KG!

Hmm haven't really watched him. All i know is he has the ugliest shot known to mankind

[Larry O]

Uh oh.... I just read this from Real GM today about Patrick Williams' possible destination in the draft. This is the report:
Patrick Williams may have a promise to get drafted by the Detroit Pistons with the seventh pick in the draft, according to John Hollinger of The Athletic.

Hollinger adds that at the very least, the Pistons are "extremely interested" in Williams.
The 19-year-old Williams averaged 9.2 points and 4.0 rebounds in his freshman year at Florida State.

Now, I thought that their glaring need would have been for a PG. If this is so, so much for all of those draft projections for Williams to the Spurs. :(

[The Truth #6]

Lots of noise, confusion, lies, and more damn lies. All these rumors are probably worthless.

[ginobilized]

Could there be a possible Spurs/Pistons trade in the works?
DDR for 7 or some variation?

[Sugus]

Could there be a possible Spurs/Pistons trade in the works?
DDR for 7 or some variation?

I'd like that trade if the GSW one doesn't materialize... But hell no at drafting PatWill with #7.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/876599836669333504/K-_zIpOE_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell) Rick Bonnell (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell) (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell) Rick_bonnell (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell)





Charlottean Patrick Williams is the biggest riser in the NBA draft. I hear he could go as high as 4 to the Chicago Bulls.
3:51pm · 16 Nov 2020 (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/1328455686225846274) · Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)

[Spursfanfromafar]

If Williams is snagged by the Bulls, Avdija will fall to Cavaliers, Halliburton to Hawks, Okongwu to Pistons, Toppin to Knicks, Okoro to Wizards, Vassell to Suns if things go according to requirement. The Spurs would have to choose between Bey, Nesmith and Hayes. I think the likely pick would be Bey. Or the Spurs are trading up to the Hawks and will try to snag Okongwu or Okoro.

[The Truth #6]

If Williams is snagged by the Bulls, Avdija will fall to Cavaliers, Halliburton to Hawks, Okongwu to Pistons, Toppin to Knicks, Okoro to Wizards, Vassell to Suns if things go according to requirement. The Spurs would have to choose between Bey, Nesmith and Hayes. I think the likely pick would be Bey. Or the Spurs are trading up to the Hawks and will try to snag Okongwu or Okoro.

I agree. Personally, I would take Killian if he was somehow still on the table, but my gut feeling is that they are prioritizing combo forward types for flexibility, and that leads me to them taking Saddiq Bey. Initially, Bey caused a gag reaction for me. But after moving through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, I acknowledge that: he is in the 98th percentile for catch and shoot jumpers, he used to play point guard when younger and has underrated passing skills. I see him as sort of a SloMo with much better shooting, but ultimately a glue guy and not a star or someone with much hope for a higher ceiling. But smart, reliable, productive players who know their roles have value in the league for winning teams and so, paradoxically, he could have mild value if we want to move on from him.

[Dejounte]

I agree. Personally, I would take Killian if he was somehow still on the table, but my gut feeling is that they are prioritizing combo forward types for flexibility, and that leads me to them taking Saddiq Bey. Initially, Bey caused a gag reaction for me. But after moving through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, I acknowledge that: he is in the 98th percentile for catch and shoot jumpers, he used to play point guard when younger and has underrated passing skills. I see him as sort of a SloMo with much better shooting, but ultimately a glue guy and not a star or someone with much hope for a higher ceiling. But smart, reliable, productive players who know their roles have value in the league for winning teams and so, paradoxically, he could have mild value if we want to move on from him.


https://youtu.be/ds6hzZ9UI7I

The Spurs are not trying the DeMarre Carroll experiment again with Saddiq Bey. Players like Bey who have mediocre movement and agility will not be useful in the NBA. You could have length to offset that, but Bey doesn't. You could have shot blocking ability to offset that, but Bey doesnt. Bey will be a wasted pick.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/ds6hzZ9UI7I

The Spurs are not trying the DeMarre Carroll experiment again with Saddiq Bey. Players like Bey who have mediocre movement and agility will not be useful in the NBA. You could have length to offset that, but Bey doesn't. You could have shot blocking ability to offset that, but Bey doesnt. Bey will be a wasted pick.

Check out the play at 3:18. He has zero burst, zero dribbling ability to get past his man, so he hopelessly takes a stupid shot over his defender and misses badly. Terrible, just terrible.

He has no ability to create ANY space. its ugly basketball.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/QJwFJZ4cB_Y

You asked before for examples of what makes Nesmith different from Bey

This video shows some examples.

Nesmith has a jab step and fakes leading to losing his defender

Saddiq exhibits NONE of these

Aaron also has the IQ to move around screens and lose his man
Bey is literally a standstill shooter who has to be at one spot for several seconds before shooting the ball

Just way, way different level of skill

The Truth #6

[The Truth #6]

https://youtu.be/QJwFJZ4cB_Y

You asked before for examples of what makes Nesmith different from Bey

This video shows some examples.

Nesmith has a jab step and fakes leading to losing his defender

Saddiq exhibits NONE of these

Aaron also has the IQ to move around screens and lose his man
Bey is literally a standstill shooter who has to be at one spot for several seconds before shooting the ball

Just way, way different level of skill

The Truth #6

I get it. Nesmith is sort of like Dale Ellis. Great at moving around screens and shooting off sets, among other shooting skills. One of the drawbacks, for example, is his horrible assist rate. I think he had 13 assists for the entire season this year. That's a concern for me with Nesmith.

Honestly, I think they are both very limited. I am not advocating for Saddiq Bey; I am merely trying to predict the Spurs FO mindset and who we may end up with.

[Dejounte]

I get it. Nesmith is sort of like Dale Ellis. Great at moving around screens and shooting off sets, among other shooting skills. One of the drawbacks, for example, is his horrible assist rate. I think he had 13 assists for the entire season this year. That's a concern for me with Nesmith.

Honestly, I think they are both very limited. I am not advocating for Saddiq Bey; I am merely trying to predict the Spurs FO mindset and who we may end up with.

Define how you are trying to predict the Spurs FO mindset

If you're going purely by team needs, i think youre going about it all wrong

The same way no one would have predicted drafting White after drafting Murray

If youre going by rumors, well, these guys are almost always wrong

If youre going by RC visiting the prospect personally, I say you would have a solid case since we have a track record of drafting players he usually sees with his own eyes

But anything other than that, it is extremely hard to guess what the Spurs are thinking

[mo7888]

But anything other than that, it is extremely hard to guess what the Spurs are thinking

I just hope they are thinking..

[The Truth #6]

Define how you are trying to predict the Spurs FO mindset

If you're going purely by team needs, i think youre going about it all wrong

The same way no one would have predicted drafting White after drafting Murray

If youre going by rumors, well, these guys are almost always wrong

If youre going by RC visiting the prospect personally, I say you would have a solid case since we have a track record of drafting players he usually sees with his own eyes

But anything other than that, it is extremely hard to guess what the Spurs are thinking


Obviously, it's hard to predict the Spurs. That's why we are all guessing. You write this as if you have some greater insight into the matter.

By team needs: You imply that going after a multi-skilled combo forward is not in the team's needs? I would say the opposite. I would say that is actually logical, which is why I believe in their interest in Patrick Williams and Saddiq Bey. We don't have any players close to that other than Luka and he is still a mystery. Keldon fits this to a degree, but isn't someone who can play the 4 consistently. Yes, any trades they have already worked out changes the calculus, but I'm guessing like anyone else.

And what would you say the team's needs are? Let's be honest, the team isn't very good and needs help in many areas. Drafting a guard shouldn't be their first priority (despite me personally thinking Maxey will be a good player).

[Dejounte]

Obviously, it's hard to predict the Spurs. That's why we are all guessing. You write this as if you have some greater insight into the matter.

By team needs: You imply that going after a multi-skilled combo forward is not in the team's needs? I would say the opposite. I would say that is actually logical, which is why I believe in their interest in Patrick Williams and Saddiq Bey. We don't have any players close to that other than Luka and he is still a mystery. Keldon fits this to a degree, but isn't someone who can play the 4 consistently. Yes, any trades they have already worked out changes the calculus, but I'm guessing like anyone else.

And what would you say the team's needs are? Let's be honest, the team isn't very good and needs help in many areas. Drafting a guard shouldn't be their first priority (despite me personally thinking Maxey will be a good player).

I wasn't saying combo forwards weren't a team need, I was saying the manner of which the Spurs construct their roster isn't based on team needs. Thinking the Spurs are going to draft Williams or Bey because it's a team need isn't at all how the Spurs operate, as per the example i gave with Derrick White and DJ.

I personally feel the team need is a big, but I'm not going to impose that on the Spurs by thinking that's how the Spurs would operate.

My insight is that it is better not to think you know than saying you think you know (regarding team mindset)

[The Truth #6]

I wasn't saying combo forwards weren't a team need, I was saying the manner of which the Spurs construct their roster isn't based on team needs. Thinking the Spurs are going to draft Williams or Bey because it's a team need isn't at all how the Spurs operate, as per the example i gave with Derrick White and DJ.

I personally feel the team need is a big, but I'm not going to impose that on the Spurs by thinking that's how the Spurs would operate.

My insight is that it is better not to think you know than saying you think you know (regarding team mindset)

Fair enough. They are unpredictable for sure. I do think they have some sort of logic that is motivating their decisions, but we on the outside are just not privy to that.

[Dejounte]

Fair enough. They are unpredictable for sure. I do think they have some sort of logic that is motivating their decisions, but we on the outside are just not privy to that.

Yeah and it's especially important to know that the Spurs think years ahead and not just the current draft. They could very well realize holes in the roster and be confident they can fill it via free agency or next year's draft class. Just sooo many ways to address things.

[Diego20]

Draft Bolmaro tbqh



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgTbbULbVSw