Get out if you want Sharia Law......

[Hook Dem]

Get out if you want Sharia law, Australia tells Muslims

CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practises it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spies monitoring the nation's mosques.

AMERICANS.....ARE YOU LISTENING! ? and reading?

[boutons2]

The Ozzies and Kiwis are some tough, macho bastards.
I fully support this tactic.

However, where in America are radical Muslim clerics preaching installation of Sharia in the USA?

[2centsworth]

The Ozzies and Kiwis are some tough, macho bastards.
I fully support this tactic.

However, where in America are radical Muslim clerics preaching installation of Sharia in the USA?to be a true muslim you have to support the installation of Sharia Law. At least that's my understanding.

[ChumpDumper]

I guess they can go to Iraq.

Are you guys against their constitution too?

[Hook Dem]

I guess they can go to Iraq.

Are you guys against their constitution too?
Nope!

[2centsworth]

I guess they can go to Iraq.

Are you guys against their constitution too?

they can do whatever they want in Iraq, it's their country.

[spurster]

they can do whatever they want in Iraq, it's their country.
It's only their country when the US leaves or at least stops doing all their dirty work.

I can agree with the Aussie, but it should have been more like. If you want to live in our country, you live by our laws. If you don't like our laws, work for change within the rules of our democracy.

[Extra Stout]

to be a true muslim you have to support the installation of Sharia Law. At least that's my understanding.
My Muslim co-worker disagrees.


AMERICANS.....ARE YOU LISTENING! ? and reading?
I'm not aware of any strong Muslim separatist movement in the United States. Our Muslim population practices and enjoys the freedoms and privileges of our society and way of life much like any other citizen.

A better contrast would be with countries like the Netherlands and Sweden who have taken multiculturalism off the deep end, and won't even stand up for democracy and human rights in their own societies because that would be a racist imposition of their values on different cultures.

Or something.

[2centsworth]

My Muslim co-worker disagrees.


.
Sharia is perfect according to the Koran and something all muslims should aspire to.

[exstatic]

Personally, I don't think any orthodox religion can survive in a truly secular state. I see this as the reason that most of the fun-dumb-entalists of the various religions are tearing down science and want to push us backwards. With the ability to look beyond the next day's work and food, people look at religion and are astounded that it's nothing more than another power trip, and they opt out.

[gtownspur]

^that doesnt explain why people are commiting themselves to religion more than ever since the late 90's.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

However, where in America are radical Muslim clerics preaching installation of Sharia in the USA?

Pick a mosque.

[Guru of Nothing]

^that doesnt explain why people are commiting themselves to religion more than ever since the late 90's.

^^^ Has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but shit like that happens when your brain is built upon "talking points."

But since you brought it up, care to enlighten us and tell us why people are committing themselves to religion, at rates not seen since the late 90s?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[exstatic]

Pick a mosque.
Pick a Southern Baptist congregation.

[gtownspur]

Because it has nothing to do with politics or talking points. Time magazine ran many stories on the rise of religion amongst youth. THe young and old, People in general are experimenting with different type of religions and some are committing to their first faith.
ONe main reason for peoples inclination to faith is that the american individual is going through so many problems personally than before. Society is not homogenous and one needs to find one's self nowadays now more than ever.
People want answers to many of our problems and they are leaving the comfort of materialism and finding solace in faith. Also there has been strong campaigning on the part of protestant baptist and evangelicals to bring morality back to the household. There is a growing christian market for all types of music and literature. Other faiths are picking up on this marketing. Also since this is the info age many people are learning new things outside of their parents and minister. In the eightees one did not see bible studies held early in the mornings before school started.

But ofcourse, your the Guru of Nothing and your name gives off your insight. Happy to help you anytime.

[gtownspur]

Pick a Southern Baptist congregation.

I dont hear the baptist advocating death to the infidels and rising up a theocracy. Your obviously to stupid to recognize the difference. The baptist only preach personal relationships with christ and a personal moral code. Baptist are not building communes where they install biblical laws like muslims in Europe.

But ofcourse there goes another customer lost to Ditech. :smokin

[Guru of Nothing]

People want answers to many of our problems and they are leaving the comfort of materialism and finding solace in faith.

... yet


There is a growing christian market for all types of music and literature. Other faiths are picking up on this marketing.

I must say, I do feel enlightened.

Thank you.

[gtownspur]

Its materialism in the sense of wanting to purchase the best clotheline rather than purchasing something like a book that will open your mind or music that soothes oneself. You know the stuff you can't flaunt. When was the last time you saw someone carry a KJV bible like a Dolce Cabana purse?

I don't need to enlightened you. You can't fool anyone with hot glueing glitter on a dim bulb.

[Guru of Nothing]

When was the last time you saw someone carry a KJV bible like a Dolce Cabana purse?

Well duh! That's because the person toting the fancy purse about is the one who SOLD the KJV bible.

Pay attention!

[gtownspur]

Please inform me where hot chicks sell bibles.:lmao Maybe at a yacht party someone is bragging of how they own a private island of the explosive sales from all the Veggie tales and Carmen dvds.:rollin

[Guru of Nothing]

Please inform me where hot chicks sell bibles.:lmao

So, all the hot chicks are buying bibles? That too would explain matters.

[gtownspur]

^you'd think if that were so then you'd have a drop in pregnancy rates. But you do.. Ofcourse, it's not for that reason.:lol

[Guru of Nothing]

^you'd think if that were so then you'd have a drop in pregnancy rates. But you do.. Ofcourse, it's not for that reason.:lol

Ducks, a little help please.

[gtownspur]

anyway, i provided reason that religion is making a comeback in our society. All the lame jokes aside. I did my job.

[Guru of Nothing]

anyway, i provided reason that religion is making a comeback in our society. All the lame jokes aside. I did my job.

I guess you did not recognize my sincerity when I thanked you.

[Extra Stout]

Pick a mosque.
Do you actually know any Muslims?

[DarkReign]

Australia rules. Period.

I was affiliated with a bunch of bloaks from down under for quite some time (about 4 years). Real cool, real laid back, but very very proud.

I applaud their government for saying what the silent majority has been thinking for YEARS!

Bravo!

[Oh, Gee!!]

I dont hear the baptist advocating death to the infidels and rising up a theocracy. Your obviously to stupid to recognize the difference. The baptist only preach personal relationships with christ and a personal moral code. Baptist are not building communes where they install biblical laws like muslims in Europe.

But ofcourse there goes another customer lost to Ditech. :smokin

they'd rather kill doctors and blow up abortion clinics

[DarkReign]

they'd rather kill doctors and blow up abortion clinics

What do we call those religious types who resort to brutal violence in the name of their convictions?...cant remember...

[Mr. Peabody]

What do we call those religious types who resort to brutal violence in the name of their convictions?...cant remember...

Republicans? Compassionate Conservatives? Tell me if I am close....

[Oh, Gee!!]

Republicans? Compassionate Conservatives?


700 Club?

[gtownspur]

^Fortunately, the individuals who blew up abortion clinics were only individuals. The southern baptist and any evangelical mainline group has never advocated blowing up abortion clinics. Once again you wish you could only associate those you oppose to side with murderers. Too bad the only side that sides with murderers are the acedemic left and the fringe left. Noam Chomsky anyone?

[gtownspur]

700 Club?
Peta, Earth liberation front, etc. the 700 club never has commited murder.

[gtownspur]

What do we call those religious types who resort to brutal violence in the name of their convictions?...cant remember...

Ever check Democratic Undergound? There's your awnser. There some people in this country who have a phsycological hatred towards Bush that is borderline insane. THere has been Post election stress syndrome groups in baton rouge who have formed because of Bush's election victory. You have European Radical leftist donating to alqueda from Europe, canada and some parts of the US according to US world report.

[DarkReign]

Answer:

Terrorists.

[Extra Stout]

they'd rather kill doctors and blow up abortion clinics
Just like all leftists are genocidal communists a la Pol Pot.

[Extra Stout]

What do we call those religious types who resort to brutal violence in the name of their convictions?...cant remember...

Answer:

Terrorists.
But of course secular types who resort to brutal violence in the name of their convictions are just principled progressives.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Peta, Earth liberation front, etc. the 700 club never has commited murder.


the figurehead just calls for the assassination of a world leader

[Mr. Peabody]

the figurehead just calls for the assassination of a world leader

Isn't that his right under the first amendment?

I think it was Chairman Mao who once said "I do not like what you have to say, but because of the First Amendment, I have to hear you say it."

[Oh, Gee!!]

Ever check Democratic Undergound? There's your awnser. There some people in this country who have a phsycological hatred towards Bush that is borderline insane. THere has been Post election stress syndrome groups in baton rouge who have formed because of Bush's election victory. You have European Radical leftist donating to alqueda from Europe, canada and some parts of the US according to US world report.


once the Democartic Underground and other liberal groups start killing people and blowing up clinics like your anti-abortion heroes, then you may have a valid argument. even then, you'd manage to fuck-up the argument, dipshit.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Isn't that his right under the first amendment?

I think it was Chairman Mao who once said "I do not like what you have to say, but because of the First Amendment, I have to hear you say it."


that was Voltaire, stupid.

[Mr. Peabody]

that was Voltaire, stupid.

The communist? No way.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The communist? No way.


No, the philosopher

[Mr. Peabody]

No, the philosopher

We must be talking about different people.

[Extra Stout]

once the Democartic Underground and other liberal groups start killing people and blowing up clinics like your anti-abortion heroes, then you may have a valid argument. even then, you'd manage to fuck-up the argument, dipshit.
Symbionese Liberation Army? The Weathermen?

Oh, I forgot, those murders were OK because they were lashing out at the fascist oppressor.

That, or you're like 19, and don't read history books.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Symbionese Liberation Army? The Weathermen?

Oh, I forgot, those murders were OK because they were lashing out at the fascist oppressor.

That, or you're like 19, and don't read history books.


those groups led misguided efforts in protest of civil rights violations, poverty, war, racism, etc. Anti-abortion wackos are attempting to intimidate and stifle a woman's legal right. They want to go back to days of oppression and limited personal freedoms

[Extra Stout]

those groups led misguided efforts in protest of civil rights violations, poverty, war, racism, etc. Anti-abortion wackos are attempting to intimidate and stifle a woman's legal right. They want to go back to days of oppression and limited personal freedoms
So murder is merely "misguided" if it's for a cause you support politically.

Your moral code is awesome.

[Oh, Gee!!]

So murder is merely "misguided" if it's for a cause you support politically.

Your moral code is awesome.


like the white people who stole this land then rebelled against the English because they didn't want to pay taxes? Do you support that rebellion? Your moral code is awesome as well.

[Extra Stout]

Ever check Democratic Undergound? There's your awnser. There some people in this country who have a phsycological hatred towards Bush that is borderline insane. THere has been Post election stress syndrome groups in baton rouge who have formed because of Bush's election victory. You have European Radical leftist donating to alqueda from Europe, canada and some parts of the US according to US world report.

You don't understand, gtownspur. See, if somebody from Democratic Underground set off a bomb during a WTO meeting, that's not terrorism to OG & Friends, because they agree with leftist causes.

It's only terrorism if people use violence in favor of causes liberals don't support.

[Extra Stout]

like the white people who stole this land then rebelled against the English because they didn't want to pay taxes? Do you support that rebellion? Your moral code is awesome as well.Well, then unless you are a full-blooded member of one of the First Nation tribes, I guess you better get yourself a plane ticket and skedaddle back to wherever your people came from since you are so morally opposed to the existence of our country.

[Extra Stout]

So I guess if we put together all of OG's arguments, killing for your own political cause is OK, because the USA exists only as a result of white people killing others.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Well, then unless you are a full-blooded member of one of the First Nation tribes, I guess you better get yourself a plane ticket and skedaddle back to wherever your people came from since you are so morally opposed to the existence of our country.


just what I'd expect from a neocon. If you don't agree with us, leave the country.

[Extra Stout]

just what I'd expect from a neocon. If you don't agree with us, leave the country.
I'm just asking you to be coherent in your ideology. If you are morally opposed to the creation of the USA, then how can you stand to be a citizen of it?

That's like somebody being an atheist and then turning around and joining a Southern Baptist church and getting baptized.

Or... are you here for some other reason? You are opposed to the existence of America... you support murder in pursuit of political ideals...

[Extra Stout]

So according to OG, it would be OK to kill a bunch of American civilians simply because you are opposed to the existence of America, and that should be considered legitimate political expression.

I have another word for it...

[Extra Stout]

Things are becoming clearer about your opposition to the war on terror.

It can't be because innocent civilians are getting killed, because you've already said that killing people in pursuit of political goals is OK.

It can't be strategic, because you've established that you think the existence of the country in the first place is immoral.

In fact, it's interesting how much you agree with al-Qaeda!

Conclusion: OG opposes the War on Terror because he is a terrorist sympathizer.

Off to Gitmo with you!

[Oh, Gee!!]

Things are becoming clearer about your opposition to the war on terror.

It can't be because innocent civilians are getting killed, because you've already said that killing people in pursuit of political goals is OK.

It can't be strategic, because you've established that you think the existence of the country in the first place is immoral.

In fact, it's interesting how much you agree with al-Qaeda!

Conclusion: OG opposes the War on Terror because he is a terrorist sympathizer.

Off to Gitmo with you!


yeah, because calling a movement misguided means "completely agrees with the use of violence."

just like a W supporter, complete disregard for truth. Just try to smear people's names and call them terrorists or unpatriotic for disagreeing with your view on the war. People like you make me afraid for the future of this country.

[Extra Stout]

just like a W supporter, complete disregard for truth. Just try to smear people's names and call them terrorists or unpatriotic for disagreeing with your view on the war.
I don't remember stating my views on the war. I just took your own statements to their logical conclusions. Or would you like to recant something?


People like you make me afraid for the future of this country.
So, given that by your own statements, you oppose this country, that would mean you are afraid that people like me will cause the nation to thrive. High praise. Thank you.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I don't remember stating my views on the war. I just took your own statements to their logical conclusions. Or would you like to recant something?


So, given that by your own statements, you oppose this country, that would mean you are afraid that people like me will cause the nation to thrive. High praise. Thank you.

Edit: just like a W supporter, complete disregard for truth. Just try to smear people's names and call them terrorists or unpatriotic for disagreeing with your view on "anything." (I assume this includes the war)

I never said I oppose this country, but unlike you I recognize that this country was taken by deceit and violence. Of course, I should have my citizenship stripped for saying that according to mouth breathers like you.

[Mr. Peabody]

I never said I oppose this country, but unlike you I recognize that this country was taken by deceit and violence. Of course, I should have my citizenship stripped for saying that according to mouth breathers like you.

Unless you view this country and its history through red, white, and blue-colored glasses, you should be branded unpatriotic and shipped of to France!

This country has never done any wrong, never been on the wrong side of any conflict and always acts with the purest and most noble aims in mind. At least that's what they told me in 5th grade history class.

[Extra Stout]

I never said I oppose this country, but unlike you I recognize that this country was taken by deceit and violence. Of course, I should have my citizenship stripped for saying that according to mouth breathers like you.
Did you or did you not make a moral equivalence between being an American citizen (which apparently implies assent for past atrocities) and killing people in support of political goals?

I forget, was killing people quasi-acceptable or "misguided?" So if murder is "misguided," and morally it's the same as being an American citizen by your own words, then choosing to be an American citizen would be "misguided."

So if you yourself continue to maintain your citizenship, that would be a misguided decision, according to your own statements.

I suppose it's possible you're not a dangerous terrorist. It could just be that you are young, idealistic, yet logically incoherent and really have no clue what the fuck you think you believe.

[Extra Stout]

Unless you view this country and its history through red, white, and blue-colored glasses, you should be branded unpatriotic and shipped of to France!

This country has never done any wrong, never been on the wrong side of any conflict and always acts with the purest and most noble aims in mind. At least that's what they told me in 5th grade history class.
And because America did bad things in the past, it has no moral authority to defend itself now and should accept its destruction as punishment.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Did you or did you not make a moral equivalence between being an American citizen (which apparently implies assent for past atrocities) and killing people in support of political goals?

I forget, was killing people quasi-acceptable or "misguided?" So if murder is "misguided," and morally it's the same as being an American citizen by your own words, then choosing to be an American citizen would be "misguided."

So if you yourself continue to maintain your citizenship, that would be a misguided decision, according to your own statements.

I suppose it's possible you're not a dangerous terrorist. It could just be that you are young, idealistic, yet logically incoherent and really have no clue what the fuck you think you believe.

I never said killing was okay. I said that the weathermen and SLA were fighting against oppression but they were misguided.

You said I had skewed morals for being sympathetic with their causes because they killed people. I reminded you that this country was founded on violence.

You want to label me a terrorist , unpatriotic, send me to prison, strip my citizenship, etc.

I think it is you who is the dangerous one. Thanks for playing though.

[Extra Stout]

Since liberals are the moral arbiters of society, they should get started on their own restitution for America's past sins ahead of everybody else.

Please burn down your homes and kill yourselves. Then the scales of justice will be even.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Since liberals are the moral arbiters of society, they should get started on their own restitution for America's past sins ahead of everybody else.

Please burn down your homes and kill yourselves. Then the scales of justice will be even.


Funny. Seems like you're the one advocating violence. What's that called again?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Hypocrisy.

[Mr. Peabody]

And because America did bad things in the past, it has no moral authority to defend itself now and should accept its destruction as punishment.

No, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument that somehow because one acknowledges the violence and deceit that this country was founded upon it makes the person opposed to this nation. Not everyone wears blinders. I think it is possible to acknowledge the terrible things this country has done (and continues to do) and still be a good American citizen.

[Extra Stout]

You said I had skewed morals for being sympathetic with their causes because they killed people. I reminded you that this country was founded on violence.

So then your fucking little game of tying all conservatives to people who blow up abortion clinics is bullshit, right?

Oh did widdle lefty baby get his feewings hurt?? Waaah. You're a pussy.

[Extra Stout]

No, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument that somehow because one acknowledges the violence and deceit that this country was founded upon it makes the person opposed to this nation. Not everyone wears blinders. I think it is possible to acknowledge the terrible things this country has done (and continues to do) and still be a good American citizen.

OK, so you're logically coherent. You might want to point out to your friend OG how that works.

[Oh, Gee!!]

So then your fucking little game of tying all conservatives to people who blow up abortion clinics is bullshit, right?

Oh did widdle lefty baby get his feewings hurt?? Waaah. You're a pussy.

Give up, ES. You're making it worse on yourself. Step away from the keyboard and try again another day.

[Extra Stout]

Funny. Seems like you're the one advocating violence. What's that called again?
:rolleyes I would be advocating violence if I supported having others destroying your property or killing you.

You have the privilege of self-determination in this country. Use it.

[Extra Stout]

Give up, ES. You're making it worse on yourself. Step away from the keyboard and try again another day.
Worse on myself? Why, because some radical thinks less of me?

[2centsworth]

Give up, ES. You're making it worse on yourself. Step away from the keyboard and try again another day.ES kicked your ass.

[Extra Stout]

Here's the thing:

We hear all these people that get all bent out of shape about America being this horrible Nazi warmongering oppressor nation, scourge of the earth, denier of human rights, murderer of innocent Iraqi children, Bush equals Hitler, blah blah blah.

We hear this knee-jerk bullshit about how the war is just an imperial land grab, we're murdering Iraqis to grab their oil. Blah blah blah.

So you would think that the deal is that leftists are just opposed to human killing, they're pacifists, they're sick of the progression of tit-for-tat over history, of people who did nothing to deserve it having a bomb land on their house, etc.

But, no. We get lovely folks like OG who say, well, in certain cases, if they're doing it for the right political reasons, it's misguided, though since they're pursuing the same ideals as him, he can't really come down too hard on them.

Oh, so it's not about that pacifist idealism, peace, love and harmony?

So wait, what's all this gnashing of teeth about Iraq? I mean, at least I could understand all this vitriol if people were just reflexively opposed to seeing people die in a war, but if there's a lefty who grows ambivalent if people get murdered by leftists acting for a cause... then the politics of Iraq must be about something else.

I mean, I'm thinking Iraq's not such a hot strategic idea because I don't think you can control the political aspirations in the minds of Sunni, Shia, and Kurd communities with tanks and Humvees, you can't stay there forever, and as soon as you leave, the factions are going to fight it out for power no matter how much they talk the democratic talk while your troops are there. I'm thinking that Saddam was an asshole, but at least he was a predictable asshole, and if I'm trying to wipe out al-Qaeda, he hates them as much as I do, so hey let's cut a deal. I'm realizing that the whole WMD thing was blown out of proportion to make a case for war, but so was the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the Zimmerman memo, and the sinking of the Maine, so let's not act like this is some new tactic of deceit here.

But despite all that, I'm viewing Iraq as a thoroughly dumb decision made by a President who did it because his policy advisers told him that the best way to make America safe and beat terror was to turn the despotic Middle East into a conglomeration of moderate democracies. So I don't hate the guy, but I think his decision-making sucks.

And I'm thinking, well, if leftists also want the best for America, then hopefully they can see that this is a fuck up rather than the advancement of evil, right?

Unless of course the problem with Iraq to them is not so much that innocent people or being killed or that it's a strategic blunder so much as that it's being carried out by a right-wing government. As in, if you're not a lefty, you're evil. And to people like that, all I can say is fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

I'm not exactly the epitome of fire-breathing theocratic neo-con whatever. If I had to estimate, I'm probably halfway between John McCain and Chuck Hagel on a lot of things. Right-wing, sure, but not exactly the "base." I'm the kind that thinks most of the other side is worth working with, that there can be a lot of compromise made on a lot of issues, that on a lot of things 75% of us agree to enough extent to get something done if only we could get the fringes to shut up for a while.

But, OG, I don't think I could work with you. I've managed to find common ground now and then even with NBA-freakin'-Dan. But you're one person I couldn't stand having a stake in the future of this country.

[Mr. Peabody]

But despite all that, I'm viewing Iraq as a thoroughly dumb decision made by a President who did it because his policy advisers told him that the best way to make America safe and beat terror was to turn the despotic Middle East into a conglomeration of moderate democracies. So I don't hate the guy, but I think his decision-making sucks.

And I'm thinking, well, if leftists also want the best for America, then hopefully they can see that this is a fuck up rather than the advancement of evil, right?



I guess it depends on what perspective you are viewing the war through. Here in the U.S., we have the luxuxry of looking at the war and saying it was a "fuck up." How would you view this war if it was your country that was invaded by a world superpower and subsequently devolved into chaos. I think many people in that situation would view the invading country's actions as evil. I think this is how many people in the world see our actions. That's the part that bothers me.

Don't get me wrong. I don't lay the blame for this "dumb decision" entirely on the President, his administration, or even the Republican Party. There were plenty of Democrats that for whatever reason supported this war and are now crying foul. Where were these people when the decision was being made to commit our troops to this action? It seems that some politicians now realize that it is politically popular to protest the war and so they are jumping on the gravy train.

I say screw the whole damn lot of them!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pick a Southern Baptist congregation.

Call me when they start blowing shit up and beheading people.


Do you actually know any Muslims?

Hmm, let's see, I took a senior seminar on the history of Islam. There was 22 people in the class, only 3 of us were Americans, the rest were all foreigners who prayed five times a day. Do the math.

The best part about that class was they were very open on their world views, views of those in the Mideast, etc.

Don't get me wrong, they weren't all suicide bombers in training or anything, but we read the Qur'an and Hadith in that class, and it's pretty damn cut and dry as to what laws should govern society.

I stand by my comment.

[exstatic]

Call me when they start blowing shit up and beheading people.

Blowing shit up? <checks thread title>. This was a thread about imposing your religion and laws on others.

Pick a Southern Baptist congregation.

[E20]

The way AHF makes it sound is that they're beheading and bombing everywhere in the world.

[cherylsteele]

[QUOTE=Oh, Gee!!]I never said I oppose this country, but unlike you I recognize that this country was taken by deceit and violence. QUOTE]
In whose opinion?
It wouldn't surprise me that nearly every civilzation emerged through either "deceit" or violence or both in one way or another.

I understand that by deciet you are referring to native americans....yes, they have been on the short end of the stick when it comes to the american dream and such...has it ever occured to you they acquired there lands through possible deceit and almost assuredely violence?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This was a thread about imposing your religion and laws on others.

Pick a Southern Baptist congregation.

I'll give you that.

I apologize, this is obviously the first time anyone has ever gone off on tangent on this site in a thread :lol, my bad.

[Marcus Bryant]

A nice summation of anti-abortion violence (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm).

While it does exist, the level of it does not begin to approach that of Islamic terrorism.

It may be trendy to compare the results of Islamic fundamentalism with that of Christian fundamentalists, but the reality is somewhat different.

[Marcus Bryant]

Edit: just like a W supporter, complete disregard for truth. Just try to smear people's names and call them terrorists or unpatriotic for disagreeing with your view on "anything." (I assume this includes the war)


So it's fine to use stereotypes and broad labels so long as individuals agree with you.

[Guru of Nothing]

I understand that by deciet you are referring to native americans....yes, they have been on the short end of the stick when it comes to the american dream and such...has it ever occured to you they acquired there lands through possible deceit and almost assuredely violence?

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think American Indians were all about deception and property acquisition; literally, land ownership was a foreign concept to them. Or so I have led myself to believe. If someone can provide facts or anecdotes to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Violence, I'm sure there was some of that. So long as men are in charge, that shits gonna happen - cold, hard fact.

I've always been facsinated with the thought, what would "America" be like had the Atlantic never been crossed? ... and if so, on which side of the ocean would I want to live?

[exstatic]

GoN - You should read a book called The Years of Salt and Rice. The premise is: what would have happened if the Bubonic plague were 98% lethal?

[Guru of Nothing]

GoN - You should read a book called The Years of Salt and Rice. The premise is: what would have happened if the Bubonic plague were 98% lethal?

Never heard of it, but I'll be sure to check it out. Sounds interesting.

[Extra Stout]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think American Indians were all about deception and property acquisition; literally, land ownership was a foreign concept to them. Or so I have led myself to believe. If someone can provide facts or anecdotes to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Violence, I'm sure there was some of that. So long as men are in charge, that shits gonna happen - cold, hard fact.

I've always been facsinated with the thought, what would "America" be like had the Atlantic never been crossed? ... and if so, on which side of the ocean would I want to live?
Those tribes were pretty brutal with one another. The Sioux, for one, were genocidal. The tribes who formed the council for which the state of Illinois was named were exterminated by the Sioux.

The annals of history are unpleasant.

[Extra Stout]

I guess it depends on what perspective you are viewing the war through. Here in the U.S., we have the luxuxry of looking at the war and saying it was a "fuck up." How would you view this war if it was your country that was invaded by a world superpower and subsequently devolved into chaos. I think many people in that situation would view the invading country's actions as evil. I think this is how many people in the world see our actions. That's the part that bothers me.
The best understanding I have right now is that ordinary Iraqis have a complex reaction to the invasion. They hate all the destruction and killing, they hate the lack of security, yet the Shia and Kurds like having the big stake in running the country and control of their future, meanwhile the Sunnis hate us for taking away their power, and they're all pretty much sick of having our armed forces around and are eager for us to leave, yet don't trust that we ever really will leave.


Don't get me wrong. I don't lay the blame for this "dumb decision" entirely on the President, his administration, or even the Republican Party. There were plenty of Democrats that for whatever reason supported this war and are now crying foul. Where were these people when the decision was being made to commit our troops to this action? It seems that some politicians now realize that it is politically popular to protest the war and so they are jumping on the gravy train.

I say screw the whole damn lot of them!
One thing I would like to point out, though, is that as upset as people might be about the decision that was made in the first place, it can't be undone, and for as much as I doubt that a stable democracy can take hold in Iraq without a civil war first, I hope I'm wrong, and I support the hard work the troops are doing in trying to make this work.

It's dismaying to see all the bickering be about what was decided in 2003, which we cannot change, with relatively little being said about where we go from here other than "stay the course" or "bring the troops home."

[Extra Stout]

Hmm, let's see, I took a senior seminar on the history of Islam. There was 22 people in the class, only 3 of us were Americans, the rest were all foreigners who prayed five times a day. Do the math.

The best part about that class was they were very open on their world views, views of those in the Mideast, etc.

Don't get me wrong, they weren't all suicide bombers in training or anything, but we read the Qur'an and Hadith in that class, and it's pretty damn cut and dry as to what laws should govern society.

I stand by my comment.
And what do they say about living in societies in the Dar al-Hab?

[Extra Stout]

And why is it that within the Muslim world, we see governments as different as Saudi Arabia and Indonesia?

[Mr. Peabody]

[QUOTE=Oh, Gee!!]I never said I oppose this country, but unlike you I recognize that this country was taken by deceit and violence. QUOTE]
In whose opinion?

It's not an opinion, it's a historical fact.


It wouldn't surprise me that nearly every civilzation emerged through either "deceit" or violence or both in one way or another.

How does this change the veracity of his statement?


I understand that by deciet you are referring to native americans....yes, they have been on the short end of the stick when it comes to the american dream and such...has it ever occured to you they acquired there lands through possible deceit and almost assuredely violence?

So, we should just say "screw them, they got what was coming to them?" If that's the case, why should we be upset that people have now adopted that attitude about the U.S.?

[gtownspur]

And why is it that within the Muslim world, we see governments as different as Saudi Arabia and Indonesia?

What's the difference, one has slanted eyes and other has rag on head?...

Ofcourse, i'm being facetious. But that's a horrible comparison if you want to compare how muslim societies differ on tolerance or if you wanted to present polar opposites when it comes to tolerant muslim nations. The fact of the matter is that the Saudi gov is 2faced in wich they lend verbal support but then lend logistical and manpower to our enemies. Indonesia has a good history of persecution of non muslims in the worst sense. Can you say genocide. THe only tolerant muslim country is Turkey and France...jk. :lol

[cherylsteele]

How does this change the veracity of his statement?
It dosen't.
He made it sound like the US has been the only country/civilization to use deceit and violence.

So, we should just say "screw them, they got what was coming to them?"
I never said that.....or implied that I felt that way. I don't in fact. I hope something can be done about that, but not too sure what we cou;d do to satisfy both sides.