Random Thoughts After Spurs Pick Joshua Primo 12th Overall

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/joshua-primo-drafted-san-antonio-spurs-thoughts/

The Spurs have had some surprising picks in the past but I think this one takes the cake.

[spurraider21]

It still hurts.

[JeffDuncan]

https://www.spurstalk.com/joshua-primo-drafted-san-antonio-spurs-thoughts/

The Spurs have had some surprising picks in the past but I think this one takes the cake.


Thank you, sir, for the excellent write up. From your article:

“ It’s clear what happened. They fell in love with Primo’s character, his shooting and the glimpses of playmaking potential. ”

After Samanic, and now Primo, the question begins to arise, are the Spurs scouting prospects, or stalking them?

[BillMc]

Thanks as always OP. It does seem like the methods that have served the Spurs well late in the draft might be hurting them as a lottery team.

[Robz4000]

:lol it was an awful pick no matter how you sugarcoat it. Yes, he's an upstanding kid from all accounts and he may become an NBA player in the far future, but the ceiling just isn't there for a lottery pick. The last bit of faith there was to have in the FO, their ability to draft, is gone.

[99 Problems]

Does anyone know if there was much made about nominating for the draft out of Alabama etc. interesting considering they had seniors leaving. Any Bama fans care to give us their opinions.

[KingKev]

Atleast we have free agency to look forward to! What this pick tells me is that for better or worse this organization refuses to change.

[objective]

I would have been happier if they had taken Garuba even accounting for the strong possibility he'd be locked up in Spain the next 3 years, this pick was that bad. It's not even the player, it's the process.

And I don't like their excuse of "we heard whispers other teams liked him so we had to take him". Like I posted in the other thread, the Knicks took Balkman at 20 and everyone laughed at them taking a late 2nd round tier/UFA type who had a nice hustling NIT tourny. Their defense? Other teams liked him. People laughed more. Then they came out and pointed at Phoenix who would pick before the Knicks next drafted at 29, they had to act before Phoenix!

Well good for them, they reached 30 spots, outfoxed Phoenix and took a guy who played 5 years before traveling the terrible leagues of the world, getting banned from the Philippines in the process. That's what reaching that far gets you, 5 year players.

I revisited as much Primo footage as I could. He looked like a good catch and shooter who was not too quick, below the rim and didn't create events. Great.

Maybe he turns out to have a career longer than 5 years. Maybe he's an eventual star. Maybe he's the future MVP.

But I think the process was flawed, even if it turns out the result isn't.

The process being flawed is described in the piece accurately with regards to them valuing the combine play.

Don't buy the justifications for not moving back.

Have teams moved back and been bitten in the ass? Yes, but in different situations. Denver moved back thinking they could snag OG in the 20s. He had been routinely expected in the teens, and the only reason he was even potentially available was an injury; he wasn't some quick unknown riser, he was a majorly known quantity. No comparison with Primo.

They don't get that their approach might be way off. They think they nailed it, like they nailed DeMarre Carroll, like they nailed the cap machinations to get off Bertans, like they nailed not moving off their veterans for picks.

[Spurtacular]

My problem with it is you have ninety plus percent chance of getting him at 17.
Teams that don't know how to trade down properly are dysfunctional.
Everything you thought about the Spurs was confirmed.

[Uriel]

In response to point #11, Wright said after the draft that the “intel isn’t always the same as the mocks” meaning that they had caught wind of some teams in the late teens being interested in him, which is why they felt they had to nab their guy while they could. It was the same reasoning that led them to reach for Samanic at 19.

[Maddog]

Thanks as always OP. It does seem like the methods that have served the Spurs well late in the draft might be hurting them as a lottery team.

A few thoughts
While I'm disappointed in the pick I think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt given past track record.
That said, I almost think they are trying to be too clever. It's served them well late in the draft, but in this range?
The other thing to keep in mind is the exploding number of mock drafts and discussions creates unreasonable hype on draft picks. The majority don't pan out. It's really fun to look back at Draft Grades from past drafts and see how many where just wrong. The range the Spurs are in have as many strike outs as home runs

[exstatic]

Had no idea who he was. Had to Google to see who Bama’s coach was, thinking it was an Avery tip off. Nope. He was fired two years ago.

Reading timvp’s write up, it brought back something I read from one of the draftniks, can’t remember which, about getting value. He said if you think a guy will be a lottery pick next year, why not cut in line, and grab him a year early? The context of that was a later pick, though.

[Texas_Ranger]

thank god we didnt have the 1st pick, cause these retards would probably pick some unknown shit.

[Spurtacular]

Had no idea who he was. Had to Google to see who Bama’s coach was, thinking it was an Avery tip off. Nope. He was fired two years ago.

Reading timvp’s write up, it brought back something I read from one of the draftniks, can’t remember which, about getting value. He said if you think a guy will be a lottery pick next year, why not cut in line, and grab him a year early? The context of that was a later pick, though.

That's smart actually. Just trade in the 20's consistently and get your huge value guy(s). What the Spurs did however is dumb.

[PhantomDashCam]

Great stuff timvp.

I do worry about point 8 though.


There were a lot of Spurs fans complaining about the Spurs drafting another guard and worrying about Primo’s fit on the roster … but I don’t think that’s a big deal. He’s a project and a lot can happen between now and when he’s ready to produce on the NBA level. Sure, it looks like the Spurs are guard-heavy now — but that could easily change.

You can criticize the front office for reaching in the draft for someone who was expected to go 15 or 20 spots later but I disagree with any positional criticism. This is a Spurs team with no foundational pieces. Long-term fit and long-term rotations aren’t a concern. All of that is fluid.

A team that makes it’s living through culture, building rotations through relationships, a togetherness; cannot suddenly become one that operates under cut throat tactics, eschewing lesser pieces for newer, more talented ones without tarnishing the very identity they strive for.

The player overlap, at least as we hit FA, is real. The hierarchical chains of tenure still exist. We are already penciling him for Austin service.

Shouldn’t a rebuilding team strive for more? Draft picks to have an opportunity to contribute earlier in their careers on the First team?
With the glut of guards in front of him and his project moniker, that becomes extremely unlikely this season, regardless if he plays ahead of the curve.

[PhantomDashCam]

Double Post

[Atl Spur]

No one knows what this kid will be but based off his traits they felt he was special. He’s 18 and can be developed hopefully effectively & efficiently. Take a breath and exercise patience, this off-season might just be one to remember!

[superbigtime]

Dumb

[Chomag]

Forbes 2.0 but this time we wasted a lottery pick on. But but Forbes is a good character!

Honestly I do hope the kid pans out but the ceiling is pretty low.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Nonathletic undersized tweener guard :lmao

All we can do is laugh at the memes at this point

[LeBowen]

I'm not happy with the pick either, should've traded down if they really wanted Primo, but some of you people are being ridiculous.

You've never seen the kid play. Maybe he's the next big thing, maybe he'll be out of the league in 5 years, we can't know.
Mock drafts and predictions have been wrong so many times, a lot of overhyped players fail.

With that being said, I have zero confidence in anything Brian Wright does. :lol

[spurspl]

No one knows what this kid will be but based off his traits they felt he was special. He’s 18 and can be developed hopefully effectively & efficiently. Take a breath and exercise patience, this off-season might just be one to remember!

the fact that hes 18 yo cant be an excuse. Sengun or moody, a better prospects, are ONLY half a year older than him and spurs skipped them...

[rankingtear]

NYK is the trade down option but 2 OKC picks sandwiched in between is too much a risk if they think he is a true primary option. OKC draft MO is swinging for possible primaries.

[flox]

Poor Wieskamp didnt even get a single timvp thought.

[dbestpro]

The Spurs draft like COVID people buy toilet paper. Got get it now cause it might not be there later even though I have greater need elsewhere.

[JeffDuncan]

In response to point #11, Wright said after the draft that the “intel isn’t always the same as the mocks” meaning that they had caught wind of some teams in the late teens being interested in him, which is why they felt they had to nab their guy while they could. ...


Sounds like the Spurs FO got played. Somebody started a rumor about being interested in Primo, and made sure the Spurs heard it, in hopes the Spurs would react, and not take Sengun. And it worked.

To know who would be responsible for such a rumor, just look where Sengun went. Houston. They took the candy from the baby.

The Spurs FO needs adult supervision.

[slick'81]

Primo only worked out for one team:lol some serious chess being played

Atleast avery johnson loved the pick

[8FOR!3]

If this guy is a complete bust then it's on Brian Wright...

[JeffDuncan]

If this guy is a complete bust then it's on Brian Wright...


It will never look good unless Sengun is a bust.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

it sucks to be a fan of a team that sucks enough to get in the lottery

it sucks even more to be a fan of a lottery team that doesn't even make the draft exciting

[Darius Bieber]

it sucks to be a fan of a team that sucks enough to get in the lottery

it sucks even more to be a fan of a lottery team that doesn't even make the draft exciting

Just be happy we don't suck enough to get the #1 pick, otherwise we'd make even more fools out of ourselves with picking Primo as #1 overall.

[mo7888]

I had Primo 22 on my Big Board and that was higher than most other people had him. I'm not concerned about his ability or upside but, the thing that concerns me is the total lack of awareness of the guys value to other teams. It was malpractice to not trade back and get him along with someone like Jones, Johnson, Jackson, or Kispert...

Now we are sitting here hoping that this FO can do something it has never really been successful at and that's navigating the free agent market and making trades. It's fairly depressing...not because of the player but from the mismanagement perspective..

[TheChillFactor]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good

[Prime BEEF]

It will never look good unless Sengun is a bust.
Duarte, moody and kispert were also available. So they would all have to be busts as well. I was hoping for Duarte or moody…not sengun…but obviously would rather have sengun over primo.

[8FOR!3]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good

Yeah I mean you're right but even still the value is not good for the position we drafted.

[baseline bum]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good

Walker, Samanic, and Vassell have been pretty underwhelming picks to say the least as of late. Only Keldon Johnson has shown anything among the recent picks.

[Trueblood]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good

In general I agree with what you're saying here. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who get paid to do this but the evidence is really stacking up:

The botched nephew trade
The reach for Samanic
The inability to make any move... ever (DDR trade?)
The Bertans fiasco
Their inability to make any moves AGAIN (DDR S&T)
The Primo reach

Now we, the loud mouths, get to watch the team develop a guy most experts say has the ceiling of "an NBA starter" for the next few years while DDR walks for nothing and we throw all of our cap space (probably close to the max) at some 7 foot overrated European (justification will be they wanted to make sure Chicago didn't match). Hey, but at least our young guys will get to finally develop with DDR gone and this kid in Austin for a guaranteed two years.

Time to call a spade a spade. This team has drafted/developed a group of high floor, low ceiling talent. At best we have a couple fringe Allstars down the line and guys who are good #2 options with no premier player. But don't worry, I'm sure with our track record of bringing in those players in free agency the FO is confident they'll be lining up to join this squad...

Bottom line, we needed a home run and they settled for a base hit.

[Dverde]

Regarding the FO. It’s the shits. I’m still holding out a sliver of hope for their FA moves. Might be Pop still making senile roster demands. Fact the Ben Simmons trade proposal was leaked shows there are loose lips there.

[Das Texan]

Brian Wright is the wrong man for the job end of day. Fairly interesting that his arrival has gone right along with dumb decision after dumb decision.

Maybe the higher ups will stop counting their dollars one day and realize whats actually happening and do something.

[Dex]

Great, we spent a lottery pick to bring in the second coming of Bryn fucking Forbes.

[baseline bum]

Regarding the FO. It’s the shits. I’m still holding out a sliver of hope for their FA moves. Might be Pop still making senile roster demands. Fact the Ben Simmons trade proposal was leaked shows there are loose lips there.

I doubt it. I mean Pop was making roster demands back when RC was making great picks like Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Splitter, and Leonard. To me this screams RC fucking the team over by leaving his GM position and taking away the one competitive advantage the Spurs had: great drafting. And now we have a scrub ass GM fucking our drafts up leaving the Spurs with no advantage whatsoever.

[Das Texan]

I doubt it. I mean Pop was making roster demands back when RC was making great picks like Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Splitter, and Leonard. To me this screams RC fucking the team over by leaving his GM position and taking away the one competitive advantage the Spurs had: great drafting. And now we have a scrub ass GM fucking our drafts up leaving the Spurs with no advantage whatsoever.

Holts threw RC some insane money and he would have been an idiot to not take the role he has now. Too bad they hired some moron proving time and again how fucking god awful he is though in his place.

[Chinook]

Primo measured at 6-5 at the combine. He's already bigger than Bryn Forbes. He's basically the same size as Devin Booker. That's not going to be a reason why he struggles in the NBA.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs draft like COVID people buy toilet paper. Got get it now cause it might not be there later even though I have greater need elsewhere.

True. They really are nervous Nellies. Extremely cautious about everything. Afraid to make moves. Yet, still think they are smarter than everyone else. I get not being impulsive, but their process is out of touch with their current moment. Their current process is making things worse.

[Mr. Body]

I'm still not clear why Primo left for the draft so soon, if he was behind other players and had room to grow. Seems really risky, but I guess there's an opportunity cost of not leaving when you know you can start a contract. His gamble paid off as at least one team -- sounds like more (?) -- pulled him earlier than anyone expected.

My questions are:

1. Could the FO trade down and still select him? I don't think so. It's not magic; it requires partners while calculating other teams' needs and desires. There were the Pacers, Golden State, and other smart teams just behind. Maybe we can believe them that the intel was someone wanted him. It's not a terrible stretch to believe Indiana would have taken him instead of Duarte. Teams widely thought as trade-down partners, in OKC and NYK, actually did other things with their picks. The Knicks traded out. So... I don't think a trade-back was possible.

2. Was Primo the right pick against what was available? Widely believed to be flat after the initial 5-7 picks (turns out Giddey was one of those instead of Bouknight), it was hard to place many players above others in the late lottery to early 20s. It's not a stretch to think Primo could become better than Moody or Kispert or others. It doesn't defy belief. But they will be much more productive immediately and it's not a stretch that they will always be better. As timvp points out, it's not like Primo's potential pops off the charts. They stole a lottery pick from 2022, but probably still in the same range. That's... weird. He doesn't fill a need and complicates things for established players who had good chemistry.

3. What was the intel? I feel that media mocks lag behind team mocks by a good amount. Ziaire Williams only started appearing in some top 10s in the last several days, where previously he was much later in the media drafts. Only some caught wind and moved him up. This guides perception considerably. (And Williams had many of the same problems Primo has in terms of production.) Imagine a scenario where the draft was held next Thursday. Would mocks start reflecting his rise at that point? Are we reacting to media narratives?

What really bothers me about the pick are:

1. This seems lackadaisical and directionless. The pick and team response seem to indicate no real plan, sensibility, or character for the present. I feel like this underlines Dejounte Murray's response. Who are we? Where is the help coming from? Wright's subsequent comments suggest Primo is for the future... but what future? More importantly, what now? Are they embracing losing, and what does this mean for future lottery picks? More reaches?

2. What about team culture? One of the best things about the young players last year was they seemed to be bonding, hanging out, working hard together. Does this pick indicate that multiple players must watch their backs? It sure seems to suggest someone is getting dumped before long. Of course it's the NBA and movement happens, but now the shadow has become a looming reality. Does this make players mercenary? Does it force DJM to start looking for the exit?

3. Who did they miss on? The problem with the pick becomes moot if no one after Primo excels more than he does. We won't know for another 3-5 years. But it sure seems like there was a player on the board who had a much, much higher ceiling than anyone else in the range, who is super-productive and only half a year older, and that is Sengun.

So... I don't know. I can see the rationale for the pick, that the intel was that he was rising, that more time in evaluation would have shown him in more media mocks, that there was no other player they valued more. But then Primo seems limited in very key ways. He's not athletic and this causes him significant problems. Frankly, he projects as a great role player and complementary piece, not a star. Meanwhile, we might have missed on a top 5 talent for the draft class and caused a lot of problems for the current team. Tank ahoy -- and who on this team wants to play through that? And if we do tank... who trusts this FO to not be picking dandelions while other teams are serious?

[Russ]

The question we'll never know the answer to -- would the Spurs have taken Primo over Bouknight if Bouknight had fallen one more spot to 12?

If so, the meltdown might have been even more crazy.

My guess is the Spurs actually would have taken Primo over Bouknight. :wow

[Uriel]

Sounds like the Spurs FO got played. Somebody started a rumor about being interested in Primo, and made sure the Spurs heard it, in hopes the Spurs would react, and not take Sengun. And it worked.

To know who would be responsible for such a rumor, just look where Sengun went. Houston. They took the candy from the baby.

The Spurs FO needs adult supervision.
If the Spurs liked Sengun more than Primo, they simply would have drafted him at #12. The fact that they chose Primo over Sengun means that they think he will be a better player.

[Mr. Body]

The question we'll never know the answer to -- would the Spurs have taken Primo over Bouknight if Bouknight had fallen one more spot to 12?

If so, the meltdown might have been even more crazy.

My guess is the Spurs actually would have taken Primo over Bouknight. :wow

Honestly think Bouknight is a bit overrated.

[Mr. Body]

If the Spurs liked Sengun more than Primo, they simply would have drafted him at #12. The fact that they chose Primo over Sengun means that they think he will be a better player.

Or... they didn't expect Sengun to fall and when he did, they froze and simply went with their plan to reach for Primo.

[Uriel]

People in here acting like this way 100% Wright's pick, as if it would've been done without the blessing of RC :lol

[Uriel]

Or... they didn't expect Sengun to fall and when he did, they froze and simply went with their plan to reach for Primo.
Wright mentioned specifically in the post-draft interview that they felt that Primo was the highest upside player available.

[Spurtacular]

Great, we spent a lottery pick to bring in the second coming of Bryn fucking Forbes.

Note that I called it first.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296973&p=10565233&viewfull=1#post10565233


So, basically Gregg used a 12th overall pick on the next Brent Formes. SMH.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296973&p=10565275&viewfull=1#post10565275


Welp. If this dude plays bad defense at the NBA level like Formes, we don't know yet.
He doesn't seem to have been exposed at college.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/joshua-primo-1.html

The only solace I have is that this is still somewhat speculative.

[TheChillFactor]

Walker, Samanic, and Vassell have been pretty underwhelming picks to say the least as of late. Only Keldon Johnson has shown anything among the recent picks.

You don't like Walker or Vassell? lol


In general I agree with what you're saying here. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who get paid to do this but the evidence is really stacking up:

The botched nephew trade
The reach for Samanic
The inability to make any move... ever (DDR trade?)
The Bertans fiasco
Their inability to make any moves AGAIN (DDR S&T)
The Primo reach

Now we, the loud mouths, get to watch the team develop a guy most experts say has the ceiling of "an NBA starter" for the next few years while DDR walks for nothing and we throw all of our cap space (probably close to the max) at some 7 foot overrated European (justification will be they wanted to make sure Chicago didn't match). Hey, but at least our young guys will get to finally develop with DDR gone and this kid in Austin for a guaranteed two years.

Time to call a spade a spade. This team has drafted/developed a group of high floor, low ceiling talent. At best we have a couple fringe Allstars down the line and guys who are good #2 options with no premier player. But don't worry, I'm sure with our track record of bringing in those players in free agency the FO is confident they'll be lining up to join this squad...

Bottom line, we needed a home run and they settled for a base hit.

they aren't done quite yet. they have the most flexibility they have ever had. let's see how the rest of the summer goes in terms of free agency and trades.

i don't really gaf what draftcentral.net or whatever says.

these "draft experts" are fucking astrologists - there's no way to know which 18 year old kid is going to be TMac.

[Chinook]

Or... they didn't expect Sengun to fall and when he did, they froze and simply went with their plan to reach for Primo.

Unless they promised Primo they'd take him, it doesn't make sense to think a guy falling to them would freeze them up. Sengun wasn't a huge surprise. If the Spurs legit did like him more than Primo, they'd've taken him.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why teams like OKC, NYK and WSH seemed to just piss away their picks is because they only saw so many decent prospects and didn't think any where there after the lottery. If that's true, it's possible that some of them agreed with SA that Primo was the last truly interesting prospect there and just went with that.

[XDT76]

.

[Mr. Body]

Wright mentioned specifically in the post-draft interview that they felt that Primo was the highest upside player available.

Of course he's going to say that.

[Mr. Body]

Unless they promised Primo they'd take him, it doesn't make sense to think a guy falling to them would freeze them up. Sengun wasn't a huge surprise. If the Spurs legit did like him more than Primo, they'd've taken him.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why teams like OKC, NYK and WSH seemed to just piss away their picks is because they only saw so many decent prospects and didn't think any where there after the lottery. If that's true, it's possible that some of them agreed with SA that Primo was the last truly interesting prospect there and just went with that.

No, Primo was clearly very surprised when he was picked.

Dude, you get five minutes on the clock. Teams fuck up all the time and if they valued Primo over Sengun, fine, but they did have a short period of time after Charlotte didn't pick the Turk to decide. It's a little dull to think the question wasn't there for them. Maybe they didn't value Sengun, which is fine. Doesn't mean it wasn't a massive mistake. Doesn't mean they weren't asking themselves the question and then just hit the button for what they had built in.

[pad300]

If the Spurs liked Sengun more than Primo, they simply would have drafted him at #12. The fact that they chose Primo over Sengun means that they think he will be a better player.

The problem with that is that it is a public illustration that the Spurs have lost their marbles at player evaluation. We have 2 players separated by all of 6 months in age. One of them, playing in a good professional men's league, played big minutes, put up 19 & 9 per game and came away with the MVP, while pulling his squad into the playoffs. The other one was in the NCAA, putting up 8 per game.... and got benched in the post season in favor of Keon Ellis (Who?). Heck, Sengun put up better assists and a better A/TO ratio. We picked the guy who projects as a worse player, no matter how you cut it.

[Chinook]

No, Primo was clearly very surprised when he was picked.

Dude, you get five minutes on the clock. Teams fuck up all the time and if they valued Primo over Sengun, fine, but they did have a short period of time after Charlotte didn't pick the Turk to decide. It's a little dull to think the question wasn't there for them. Maybe they didn't value Sengun, which is fine. Doesn't mean it wasn't a massive mistake. Doesn't mean they weren't asking themselves the question and then just hit the button for what they had built in.

That's not the way drafting works. The Spurs have a board, and they basically go with the highest player on their board that is available. If Sengun was higher on the board, they would've gone with him. There's no reason to believe they'd be stunned for five whole minutes and then mistakenly turn in the wrong card or whatever. They knew how they felt about all of these players long before the draft. That doesn't mean they're not wrong, but your explanation doesn't hold water. They purposefully and knowingly took Primo over Sengun and would've done so if they'd had another week to think about it. That's the point of setting up a scouting department -- to do the work well in advance and not having to decide on the fly like this was 2K.

[baseline bum]

You don't like Walker or Vassell? lol


You liked what you saw out of Walker this year? :lmao

[Rummpd]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good


This is totally off course. Since the days of Parker and Manu all the Spurs drafts are sort of what they are. Nothing outstanding. This FO is an absolute FARCE as they held onto Veterans and got nothing for them and are stuck in mediocrity. Free agents avoid SAS. Then this piece of total garbage last night - NON DEFENDABLE on any level.

[XDT76]

Chill guys look on the bright side, maybe FO had agreed deals with Gay, Dieng, Diop, Lyles and DDR that's why we go for a guard.

[Chinook]

The problem with that is that it is a public illustration that the Spurs have lost their marbles at player evaluation. We have 2 players separated by all of 6 months in age. One of the, playing in a good professional men's league, played big minutes, put up 19 & 9 per game and came away with the MVP, while pulling his squad into the playoffs. The other one was in the NCAA, putting up 8 per game.... and got benched in the post season in favor of Keon Ellis (Who?). Heck, Sengun put up better assists and a better A/TO ratio. We picked the guy who projects as a worse player, no matter how you cut it.

So obviously, looking at it as a matter of age and production is really reductive. Development is a much more complicated process than that, and the Spurs may well have looked at how they calculated it and thought that Primo will be the better player. That can be because of where he is on the development curve, what is floor is, how easy it'd be to get him on the floor, how willing he was to be coach, what parts of his game would be translated, etc. I certainly would feel more excited right now had the Spurs drafted Sengun, but I also can imagine him disappointing in the NBA given his current skill-set. If Primo's floor is a bigger Bryn Forbes with better defense, that's not really that bad.

[BacktoBasics]

Wright mentioned specifically in the post-draft interview that they felt that Primo was the highest upside player available.

What a pant load. If they’re content to go out on a ridiculous limb they should have drafted that athletic kid from Texas who was doing flips on the court. Wright needs to go. I’d rather have drinks with Pop than sit next to Wright for 2 minutes.

[Mr. Body]

That's not the way drafting works. The Spurs have a board, and they basically go with the highest player on their board that is available. If Sengun was higher on the board, they would've gone with him. There's no reason to believe they'd be stunned for five whole minutes and then mistakenly turn in the wrong card or whatever. They knew how they felt about all of these players long before the draft. That doesn't mean they're not wrong, but your explanation doesn't hold water. They purposefully and knowingly took Primo over Sengun and would've done so if they'd had another week to think about it. That's the point of setting up a scouting department -- to do the work well in advance and not having to decide on the fly like this was 2K.

It's entirely reasonable to believe this is how it worked. FOs totally flub things in the trenches. It happens.

It's also entirely reasonable to believe they didn't value Sengun, which is also a detriment.

[GreekSpursfan]

I'm with the Spurs as it relates to Sengun, i don't see any upside in the NBA world, i saw him against our National team which is garbage without Giannis and he has major issues defensively due to being a twinner, very slow for his size. His skill set is very good to excellent for European bball where you can be the most unathletic player and still survive but not for the NBA. If he was Jokic size then it would've been different. I hope they made the right decision with Primo though because i don't know if the other options were better but i know sengun very well, i watch Euroleague a lot and he can be great there but i don't see it in the NBA.

[Uriel]

The problem with that is that it is a public illustration that the Spurs have lost their marbles at player evaluation. We have 2 players separated by all of 6 months in age. One of them, playing in a good professional men's league, played big minutes, put up 19 & 9 per game and came away with the MVP, while pulling his squad into the playoffs. The other one was in the NCAA, putting up 8 per game.... and got benched in the post season in favor of Keon Ellis (Who?). Heck, Sengun put up better assists and a better A/TO ratio. We picked the guy who projects as a worse player, no matter how you cut it.
I don't disagree with that. Sengun was my pick too.

But the Spurs had both Sengun and Primo in for private workouts, so clearly they've seen something that we haven't.

[Uriel]

On another note, I love how this year's annual SpursTalk post-draft meltdown is even bigger than anticipated :lol

A lot of us foresaw that this was going to happen, but few of us would have guessed that it would've been on this scale, lasting until even the day after the draft :lmao

[Trill Clinton]

Primo's mom came to me in a dream last night and told me her son will bring the city multiple titles. I'm sold on this pick.

[Chinook]

It's entirely reasonable to believe this is how it worked. FOs totally flub things in the trenches. It happens.

It's also entirely reasonable to believe they didn't value Sengun, which is also a detriment.

No, it's not reasonable. The Spurs had a whole year to decide how much they wanted Sengun. They didn't need five minutes to think about it. It's really weird that you keep trying to push that point. Legit, there are only two ways this could've worked like you're suggesting: Either the Spurs made a promise to Primo thinking Sengun wouldn't be around and then decided not to break their promise when they were wrong; or the Spurs drafted Primo thinking he'd be part of a trade, and that trade either got botched or has yet to occur because it also involves something like a S&T. Outside of those two fringe circumstances, the Spurs would just go with their board, as any other team would do. It's possible something happened that caused the Spurs to go against their evaluation to draft Primo over Sengun, but we aren't talking like 50-50 chances here. We're talking like 95-5 that they just like Primo more, though if Primo is dealt in a week or so, that would change the ratio.

[JeffDuncan]

Duarte, moody and kispert were also available. So they would all have to be busts as well. ...


Good point. Yeah, it’ll take a lot of busting for the Spurs to look good here.

In the meantime, a scenario for reading entertainment.

Wright revealed in a tweet that he was calling around to try to trade down, or get additional picks, or whatever. But in doing so, he talked too much. He revealed how high the Spurs were on Primo, but they wanted a lower pick to take him. They didn’t feel they could take him at 12. But they really really liked him.

Houston heard about it. As did OKC. As Wright struck out in his attempts to deal.

Houston — and OKC? — then started a targeted rumor, targeted at the Spurs, that it was a done deal Primo would go at 17. They made sure the Spurs heard that. (The intention was to make the Spurs jump the gun and take Primo at 12, leaving the higher ranked prospects on the board. There was no actual intention to take Primo at 17.)

It worked. Thinking he had no chance to get Primo otherwise, Wright took him at 12.

That left Sengun etc. on the board, and opened the opportunity for Houston to take Sengun at 17, with the OKC pick. Which they did.

Wright said in another tweet that intel can be different from mock drafts. It doesn’t appear he mentioned that intel can include disinformation designed to manipulate.

Just a little story of course. That’s all.

Wright couldn’t be such a gullible twit that he would be influenced by a targeted rumor. Could he?

You decide.

Meandering thoughts on a quiet morning...

[John B]

Great write-up Timvp. As mentioned, you were not bad at predicting at picks 25th and 37th. That’s were I put Primo, and not at 12th. His slow-burst concerns me, unless he develops a strong body like Harden who can plow through his defenders, because the kid has good-size and great strokes, even a long-range at that. Completely agree with you, PATFO seem to have used the same selecting process as if they’re selecting from the late 1st round, which they did for almost 20 years, a Project. Nobody selects a Project at 12th.

All Spurs fans are on the edge of their seats what “franchise altering” deals the PATFO has stored in the following weeks. Personally, I expect no less than Collins or Simmons as that’s the positional need, which they could’ve addressed with Sengun or Jalen Johnson. Man, I’m still a bit furious with the thought of having a chance at Jalen. He would’ve been a 20 million dollars cheaper than Collins or Simmons and still have plenty left to surround him :bang.

Still, I will give the PATFO the benefit of the doubt, that they know what they’re doing, and wait the rest of the Summer to grade this off-season. Because Brian Wright has been underwhelming me. I’m not sure that he should be the one taking the helm. I’m sure Pop and RC have a hands on it. I want a Presti, someone savvy who can make great deals. So far Wright is underwhelming… but I’ll wait until I pass judgement.

The kid is great (somehow reminds me of Slow Mo though), better shooter but not as good a passer, again not at 12.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Wright mentioned specifically in the post-draft interview that they felt that Primo was the highest upside player available.

What else is he going to say? "I didn't take who we thought was best, but he's a real nice guy?"

[Mr. Body]

On another note, I love how this year's annual SpursTalk post-draft meltdown is even bigger than anticipated :lol

A lot of us foresaw that this was going to happen, but few of us would have guessed that it would've been on this scale, lasting until even the day after the draft :lmao

I thought they were going to draft Trey Murphy or something.

[Mr. Body]

No, it's not reasonable. The Spurs had a whole year to decide how much they wanted Sengun. They didn't need five minutes to think about it. It's really weird that you keep trying to push that point. Legit, there are only two ways this could've worked like you're suggesting: Either the Spurs made a promise to Primo thinking Sengun wouldn't be around and then decided not to break their promise when they were wrong; or the Spurs drafted Primo thinking he'd be part of a trade, and that trade either got botched or has yet to occur because it also involves something like a S&T. Outside of those two fringe circumstances, the Spurs would just go with their board, as any other team would do. It's possible something happened that caused the Spurs to go against their evaluation to draft Primo over Sengun, but we aren't talking like 50-50 chances here. We're talking like 95-5 that they just like Primo more, though if Primo is dealt in a week or so, that would change the ratio.

I don't think you're making the point you think you are. You're basically saying "They liked Primo." That's pretty obvious, since they picked him.

[exstatic]

at the end of the day they are professionals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to draft and develop players.

and we are the loudmouths on a message board that don't know shit repeating what "Draft Central Express" writes or some other bullshit that makes us feel good
I’m usually team PATFO, but they broke trust with me by breaking their rule of BPA. Josh Primo was not BPA. I get that they think he’ll be a lottery pick next year, but do they really think that picking a HUGE reach like this is going to lift them out of a two year lottery streak? And if they’re going to be in the lottery again, PICK HIM NEXT YEAR, and make a lottery pick for this year, this year.

[TheChillFactor]

Which one of these recent 12th picks do you think could take the Spurs back to contention?

2019 PJ Washington, Kentucky – Charlotte Hornets
2018 Miles Bridges, Michigan State University – Charlotte Hornets
2017 Luke Kennard, Duke – Detroit Pistons
2016 Taurean Prince, Baylor – Utah Jazz
2015 Trey Lyles, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2014 Dario Saric, Croatia – Orlando Magic
2013 Steven Adams, Pittsburgh – Oklahoma City Thunder
2012 Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2011 Alec Burks, Colorado – Utah Jazz
2010 Xavier Henry, Kansas – Memphis Grizzlies

Get a fucking grip we are the Pacers until we land a top talent again.

[Mr. Body]

I’m usually team PATFO, but they broke trust with me by breaking their rule of BPA. Josh Primo was not BPA. I get that they think he’ll be a lottery pick next year, but do they really think that picking a HUGE reach like this is going to lift them out of a two year lottery streak? And if they’re going to be in the lottery again, PICK HIM NEXT YEAR, and make a lottery pick for this year, this year.

Exactly my thoughts. This player is still there next year. They punted this year for a player who would still only be around #12 next year. Big opportunity cost in doing so.

[TheChillFactor]

I’m usually team PATFO, but they broke trust with me by breaking their rule of BPA. Josh Primo was not BPA. I get that they think he’ll be a lottery pick next year, but do they really think that picking a HUGE reach like this is going to lift them out of a two year lottery streak? And if they’re going to be in the lottery again, PICK HIM NEXT YEAR, and make a lottery pick for this year, this year.

come on dude you're just angry.

how THE FUCK can they "pick him next year"? he's in THIS fucking draft!

[exstatic]

Walker, Samanic, and Vassell have been pretty underwhelming picks to say the least as of late. Only Keldon Johnson has shown anything among the recent picks.

Walker is a bust, Samanic needs to show something this year, but I’ll give Vassell a pass. He was playing well in limited minutes until he got the Rona. He may well be the year 2 breakout player that Keldon was last year.

[TheChillFactor]

Exactly my thoughts. This player is still there next year. They punted this year for a player who would still only be around #12 next year. Big opportunity cost in doing so.

which players from the 2020 draft should they have taken last night?

this doesn't even make fucking sense

[Chinook]

I don't think you're making the point you think you are. You're basically saying "They liked Primo." That's pretty obvious, since they picked him.

The point I'm making is that they like Primo more than Sengun and picked Primo over Sengun intentionally and with clear heads. It's not reasonable to think they didn't pick Sengun due to being flustered or some other error. It's a dead end to try to push the idea that they valued Sengun more than Primo. Even though there's a chance that's the case, it's so small that it's not a reasonable position to hold.

[DPG21920]

Like I’ve been saying and agree timvp - the FO has not adapted at all and all the signs have been there. It’s beyond alarming at this point. It’s downright past the time to really take a look at a major FO overhaul.

No matter how much the results have declined, they have not shown the ability to be creative and adapt. That’s a bad sign. You don’t stick with the same old stuff when the results are consistently declining.

They have put themselves in sub optimal positions across the board:

Not a good pick but not a winning team either
Forced to trade soon due to logjam but blocked their players development and lowering their value by both actions (teams know they need to trade guards now + they never got to showcase them and get value up)
Letting guys walk for nothing vs getting extra capital to make swing picks like Primo while not nuking lottery picks

Anyone of those things individually is not a death blow; but all added up it points to a really inept and stuck FO that is dangerously close to be a net negative now

[exstatic]

Regarding the FO. It’s the shits. I’m still holding out a sliver of hope for their FA moves. Might be Pop still making senile roster demands. Fact the Ben Simmons trade proposal was leaked shows there are loose lips there.

Could be on the Philly end. Multiple trade proposals have leaked, so I’d kind of bet on it. They may be trying to show his camp that there’s no market for his caliber of player.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

You liked what you saw out of Walker this year? :lmao

:lmao

[pad300]

...
Get a fucking grip we are the Pacers until we land a top talent again.

Guess what. They passed on a guy (Sengun) who has a chance to be top talent last night... You aren't going to get top talent by not drafting the chance when it comes by.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Chill guys look on the bright side, maybe FO had agreed deals with Gay, Dieng, Diop, Lyles and DDR that's why we go for a guard.

:whine

[Mr. Body]

which players from the 2020 draft should they have taken last night?

this doesn't even make fucking sense

The 2020 draft? The fuck you talking about?

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Primo's mom came to me in a dream last night and told me her son will bring the city multiple titles. I'm sold on this pick.

oh shit!

:smokin

[Mr. Body]

The point I'm making is that they like Primo more than Sengun and picked Primo over Sengun intentionally and with clear heads. It's not reasonable to think they didn't pick Sengun due to being flustered or some other error. It's a dead end to try to push the idea that they valued Sengun more than Primo. Even though there's a chance that's the case, it's so small that it's not a reasonable position to hold.

It's totally reasonable to think they fixated on a player and did not react to changing circumstances.

[Chinook]

I’m usually team PATFO, but they broke trust with me by breaking their rule of BPA. Josh Primo was not BPA. I get that they think he’ll be a lottery pick next year, but do they really think that picking a HUGE reach like this is going to lift them out of a two year lottery streak? And if they’re going to be in the lottery again, PICK HIM NEXT YEAR, and make a lottery pick for this year, this year.

That doesn't make sense. If they're going into the lottery again next year, then they can pick a lottery pick for next year, next year and have the two lottery picks. And if they sign Collins or whatever and make the playoffs, then they wouldn't have the lottery pick next year to pick. Obviously the fact that Primo stayed in and wasn't available to pick next year meant that they had to take him this year.

Primo was obviously BPA in their book. They didn't draft for need, obviously. Unless as I said to MB they drafted him to trade him, it's clear that they thought he was the top player on their board. They can obviously be wrong, and from my relatively ignorant vantage point, I'd say they were. But this counter argument doesn't make any sense.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Which one of these recent 12th picks do you think could take the Spurs back to contention?

2019 PJ Washington, Kentucky – Charlotte Hornets
2018 Miles Bridges, Michigan State University – Charlotte Hornets
2017 Luke Kennard, Duke – Detroit Pistons
2016 Taurean Prince, Baylor – Utah Jazz
2015 Trey Lyles, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2014 Dario Saric, Croatia – Orlando Magic
2013 Steven Adams, Pittsburgh – Oklahoma City Thunder
2012 Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2011 Alec Burks, Colorado – Utah Jazz
2010 Xavier Henry, Kansas – Memphis Grizzlies

Get a fucking grip we are the Pacers until we land a top talent again.

Steven Adams (or a 'Steven Adams' of old calibre centre in #todaysnba)

[Mr. Body]

That doesn't make sense. If they're going into the lottery again next year, then they can pick a lottery pick for next year, next year and have the two lottery picks. And if they sign Collins or whatever and make the playoffs, then they wouldn't have the lottery pick next year to pick. Obviously the fact that Primo stayed in and wasn't available to pick next year meant that they had to take him this year.

Primo was obviously BPA in their book. They didn't draft for need, obviously. Unless as I said to MB they drafted him to trade him, it's clear that they thought he was the top player on their board. They can obviously be wrong, and from my relatively ignorant vantage point, I'd say they were. But this counter argument doesn't make any sense.

exstatic's point is that a player of Primo's caliber will be available next year at the same slot. It's not like they stole a generational talent out from under everybody's nose. He seems to project as a lottery-capable player had he stayed in Alabama one more year. It's just that the Spurs grabbed him before that (ostensibly) would have happened. Again, what exstatic is saying is that that player -- not literally Primo, but that type of player -- is there again next year. So why take him now? Why not take someone who can contribute while not completely overlapping and confusing established players?

[mo7888]

That doesn't make sense. If they're going into the lottery again next year, then they can pick a lottery pick for next year, next year and have the two lottery picks. And if they sign Collins or whatever and make the playoffs, then they wouldn't have the lottery pick next year to pick. Obviously the fact that Primo stayed in and wasn't available to pick next year meant that they had to take him this year.

Primo was obviously BPA in their book. They didn't draft for need, obviously. Unless as I said to MB they drafted him to trade him, it's clear that they thought he was the top player on their board. They can obviously be wrong, and from my relatively ignorant vantage point, I'd say they were. But this counter argument doesn't make any sense.

They could have also drafted him with the knowledge that they have a deal in place to move DJ, White, or LW next week. Possibly as part of a S&T for Collins or maybe with GS to give them cap relief.

[TheChillFactor]

Exactly my thoughts. This player is still there next year. They punted this year for a player who would still only be around #12 next year. Big opportunity cost in doing so.


The 2020 draft? The fuck you talking about?

if primo is who they want, what the fuck are you talking about just take him next year?

[Chinook]

It's totally reasonable to think they fixated on a player and did not react to changing circumstances.

It's not, because that's not how drafting works. Now if you mean that they were picking Primo no matter what because they fell in love with his character and didn't stop to consider that Sengun was actually a better player, I can see that. But that's still them thinking Primo was better and picking him for that reason. They certainly didn't JUST scout one player over the past year. They scouted all over the board, especially when it became clear they'd make the lottery and thus could end up with a top-four pick. Also, Sengun being available wasn't "changing circumstances". The dude went at 16, not 13. Likely the Spurs thought just like the other 12 teams that passed on him that he had flaws that made him not BPA.

It's possible (but not reasonable to assume) that the Spurs are uniquely incompetent now and passed on players like Haliburton and Sengun because they can't deal with a guy falling. It's more likely that they just agreed with those other teams though. In this case, they could be wrong, like they appear to have been about Haliburton. If that's the case, though, they're most likely wrong because of how they set up their board, not that they forgot how to use their board in the critical moment.

[Mr. Body]

if primo is who they want, what the fuck are you talking about just take him next year?

Are you having trouble reading? No one's literally talking about Josh Primo next year. And next year is 2022, not 2020.

[exstatic]

Primo's mom came to me in a dream last night and told me her son will bring the city multiple titles. I'm sold on this pick.

She must have visited Brian Wrong hi his dream two nights ago.

[Mr. Body]

It's not, because that's not how drafting works. Now if you mean that they were picking Primo no matter what because they fell in love with his character and didn't stop to consider that Sengun was actually a better player, I can see that. But that's still them thinking Primo was better and picking him for that reason. They certainly didn't JUST scout one player over the past year. They scouted all over the board, especially when it became clear they'd make the lottery and thus could end up with a top-four pick. Also, Sengun being available wasn't "changing circumstances". The dude went at 16, not 13. Likely the Spurs thought just like the other 12 teams that passed on him that he had flaws that made him not BPA.

It's possible (but not reasonable to assume) that the Spurs are uniquely incompetent now and passed on players like Haliburton and Sengun because they can't deal with a guy falling. It's more likely that they just agreed with those other teams though. In this case, they could be wrong, like they appear to have been about Haliburton. If that's the case, though, they're most likely wrong because of how they set up their board, not that they forgot how to use their board in the critical moment.

You have this halcyon vision of how draft teams work.

[Chinook]

They could have also drafted him with the knowledge that they have a deal in place to move DJ, White, or LW next week. Possibly as part of a S&T for Collins or maybe with GS to give them cap relief.

Yes, and I'm hoping they trade someone, as I've said enough now to where it's annoying. Even if they were planning on getting rid of a guard, I still think they'd believe Primo was BPA. Their are other ways to fill the guard minutes like free agency. They didn't HAVE to draft one at 12 to do that if there was more talented prospects at other positions. The only way I would expect them to pick Primo against BPA is if they were specifically trying to trade him to a team that thought Josh was BPA and wanted him in a deal.

[Maddog]

You don't like Walker or Vassell? lol



they aren't done quite yet. they have the most flexibility they have ever had. let's see how the rest of the summer goes in terms of free agency and trades.

i don't really gaf what draftcentral.net or whatever says.

these "draft experts" are fucking astrologists - there's no way to know which 18 year old kid is going to be TMac.


Guess what. They passed on a guy (Sengun) who has a chance to be top talent last night... You aren't going to get top talent by not drafting the chance when it comes by.

So did 15 other teams. Including three teams after the Spurs (maybe more if count those that traded out)
I'm disappointed in the pick. However when I think about it- why I am I disappointed. Because I've read all these mock drafts listened to all these pre-draft discussions etc.
However go back and look at post draft grades for 2016, it's been 5 years so enough time to tell.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/draft/2016/06/23/nba-draft-live-tracker-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram/86303580/
https://www.si.com/nba/2016/06/24/nba-draft-grades-results-ben-simmons-dragan-bender-brandon-ingram

[John B]

which players from the 2020 draft should they have taken last night?

this doesn't even make fucking sense

I think it means they selected a player who could be a lottery pick next year. Spurs were not picking 29th! They’re still in that “late 1st round strategy” he would be a lottery next year, let’s pick him now!. We’re actually picking a lottery this year, and should’ve picked a lottery pick for this year.

He’s a good kid. But nobody does a project with a lottery pick. Just not the same process as picking in the late 1st round. That’s what Timvp is saying. PATFO needs to change the process when selecting in the lottery. Primo is NOT a lottery pick RIGHT NOW, so don’t pick him now, especially since there were BPA more in-tune with lottery, Sengun, Moody. Heck, I’d be ecstatic if we chose Jalen Johnson.

[Chinook]

You have this halcyon vision of how draft teams work.

Nah, man. Making a draft board is so common and fundamental that timvp made one up for an article. Every team has one. You're doing backfilps to try to explain how PATFO could evaluate players so differently than you do. There's no need. We aren't them. They make their judgments, and we make ours. They don't have to be the same, and the Spurs don't have to be (W)right.

[TheChillFactor]

Exactly my thoughts. This player is still there next year. They punted this year for a player who would still only be around #12 next year. Big opportunity cost in doing so.


So did 15 other teams. Including three teams after the Spurs (maybe more if count those that traded out)
I'm disappointed in the pick. However when I think about it- why I am I disappointed. Because I've read all these mock drafts listened to all these pre-draft discussions etc.
However go back and look at post draft grades for 2016, it's been 5 years so enough time to tell.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/draft/2016/06/23/nba-draft-live-tracker-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram/86303580/
https://www.si.com/nba/2016/06/24/nba-draft-grades-results-ben-simmons-dragan-bender-brandon-ingram

my personal favorite

4. Phoenix Suns
Pick: Dragan Bender, forward, Croatia
Grade: B+
Analysis: The addition of this year's top international prospect should be a difference-maker in the Suns' frontcourt ... eventually. Despite Bender's 7-1 frame, he's versatile enough to play either forward position or center, but there will surely be an adjustment period for the 18 year old Croatian. Could he be this year's Kristaps Porzingis?

[exstatic]

Are you having trouble reading? No one's literally talking about Josh Primo next year. And next year is 2022, not 2020.

I said that without giving the context to tell him to GO BACK TO FUCKING SCHOOL, because he’s not ready yet.

We make an actual lottery pick this year, not a second rounder, and when we’re in the lottery next year, and he PROVES to be a lottery pick, we select him.

I still don’t see the fuss. He has no great physical gifts, and no standout skill. He’s ‘a guy’.

[John B]

The only way I would expect them to pick Primo against BPA is if they were specifically trying to trade him to a team that thought Josh was BPA and wanted him in a deal.

I’m still holding on to this thought to keep my sanity :lol

[TheChillFactor]

I think it means they selected a player who could be a lottery pick next year. Spurs were not picking 29th! They’re still in that “late 1st round strategy” he would be a lottery next year, let’s pick him now!. We’re actually picking a lottery this year, and should’ve picked a lottery pick for this year.

He’s a good kid. But nobody does a project with a lottery pick. Just not the same process as picking in the late 1st round. That’s what Timvp is saying. PATFO needs to change the process when selecting in the lottery. Primo is NOT a lottery pick RIGHT NOW, so don’t pick him now, especially since there were BPA more in-tune with lottery, Sengun, Moody. Heck, I’d be ecstatic if we chose Jalen Johnson.

my point is if they wanted him and he is there, take him.

you're only getting one shot at someone you want.

the spurs have generally smart and experienced people that work hard at this stuff. they have gotten a lot of these picks right.

all those smart people working hard and these idiots weigh in with "fire Pop bc he doesn't play Luka Sandwich"

jfc i wouldn't come to your job and start telling you when to take the fries out have some fucking respect for GREGG FUCKING POPOVICH.

these morons just want daryl morey bullshit because bill simmons said it was cool

and yes, the "Pop Defender" has logged on get at me you little smooth brains!

[Mr. Body]

I said that without giving the context to tell him to GO BACK TO FUCKING SCHOOL, because he’s not ready yet.

We make an actual lottery pick this year, not a second rounder, and when we’re in the lottery next year, and he PROVES to be a lottery pick, we select him.

I still don’t see the fuss. He has no great physical gifts, and no standout skill. He’s ‘a guy’.

I'm still puzzled why Primo came out this year.

[KobesAchilles]

3 reasons to believe in GM Brian Wright (who is totally in control of running the ship).

1. This has to light a fire under Lonnie’s ass. The dude seems anemic for too long of stretches. It’s not even an icy hot thing either it’s more an effort thing. Some games he looks like the second coming of MJ and the majority he looks lost and doesn’t give a fuck. I don’t know if we offer Lonnie another contract but if he continues his shit show of effort this coming year then we have a replacement down the line

2. You can never have enough shooting. Yeah we have another combo guard or whatever but he is a shooter. That’s his bread and butter. His form looks good, his leg/body placement seems ready at all times, and he doesn’t look like he will lack confidence in himself when it comes to launching 3s. Say what you want but we don’t have that many shooters. It would be nice to have a bench that are all threats from the 3 and can all switch and can defend (I know he’s not there yet defensively but that will be taught I hope).

3. He fits a role perfectly. As shown in Alabama, he has no problem waiting in the corner for the open look. It’s how he was used. This means he won’t complain about lack of touches and it also means that we can take our sweet ass time developing him right? Well the answer to that is kinda. Bc he already does the one thing that takes a lot of our players years to develop. Unlike DJ or KJ, we don’t have to teach him to shoot! That’s a big deal. Now we can just focus on getting him to learn the game. That’s harder for sure but he’s young enough to where his bad habits can be gotten rid of defensively and where he can absorb an offense. It’s the opposite of why I was opposed to making DJ a PG. They were chasing too many rabbits with DJ: shooting, defense, running an offense, high pick n roll, etc and that’s gonna take years and years to learn. But you can focus on 2 & 3 with him in a more natural game situation in Austin. It’s why White worked out better. He could just focus on playing the game. Primo just needs to focus on playing the game.

This pick gives me hope that we know what we are actually doing. He doesn’t align with our kids timeline but when we tank next year and get that high draft pick, those 2 guys are going to grow together. You keep the high character youth we have now that can teach them the game and the Spurs way and you do it right in a rubuild. It’s like what NO tried to do with Zion except they don’t have the locker room or culture. We do.

[james evans]

I'm not happy with the pick either, should've traded down if they really wanted Primo, but some of you people are being ridiculous.

You've never seen the kid play. Maybe he's the next big thing, maybe he'll be out of the league in 5 years, we can't know.
Mock drafts and predictions have been wrong so many times, a lot of overhyped players fail.

With that being said, I have zero confidence in anything Brian Wright does. :lol
he'll be under Lord Popovich the next 2 years. We WON'T see him play.

[TDomination]

Which one of these recent 12th picks do you think could take the Spurs back to contention?

2019 PJ Washington, Kentucky – Charlotte Hornets
2018 Miles Bridges, Michigan State University – Charlotte Hornets
2017 Luke Kennard, Duke – Detroit Pistons
2016 Taurean Prince, Baylor – Utah Jazz
2015 Trey Lyles, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2014 Dario Saric, Croatia – Orlando Magic
2013 Steven Adams, Pittsburgh – Oklahoma City Thunder
2012 Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2011 Alec Burks, Colorado – Utah Jazz
2010 Xavier Henry, Kansas – Memphis Grizzlies

Get a fucking grip we are the Pacers until we land a top talent again.

Good post. Some perspective is definitely needed.

i think we're all just looking for some excitement for this upcoming year and so far we have no real reason to be excited.

[J_Paco]

I said that without giving the context to tell him to GO BACK TO FUCKING SCHOOL, because he’s not ready yet.

We make an actual lottery pick this year, not a second rounder, and when we’re in the lottery next year, and he PROVES to be a lottery pick, we select him.

I still don’t see the fuss. He has no great physical gifts, and no standout skill. He’s ‘a guy’.

Shooting......

[exstatic]

Our Josh Huestes pick.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

There's no way to sugarcoat this....the Spurs FO did a fvcking horrible job with last night's draft. Picking 12 and they go the long-shot development route? My hope was with the 12th pick they'd get someone who could help us right away, not someone who won't be an asset for two seasons at least. If they truly wanted Primo, they could have easily traded down. Risk of losing him? Who cares if someone else nabbed him. This was a draft of middle tier talent after the first few guys left the board anyway. Primo's gone, get the next guy on your list. Dumb.

Typing this, my only thought is they are fully embracing the "tank" at this point. They lost LMA. They'll probably give up DDR for nothing, as per the team's recent M.O.. Why risk drafting a true lottery talent at the risk of him being really good, jelling with our other young talent, and messing up our chances at a top 3 pick next summer? In a relatively weak draft position, draft a long-term prospect, commit to being as horrible as possible next year, and get the full rebuild launched in earnest.

It's the only explanation I have for some of this team's recent ridiculous choices. This might be the cherry on top.

[TheChillFactor]

I said that without giving the context to tell him to GO BACK TO FUCKING SCHOOL, because he’s not ready yet.

We make an actual lottery pick this year, not a second rounder, and when we’re in the lottery next year, and he PROVES to be a lottery pick, we select him.

I still don’t see the fuss. He has no great physical gifts, and no standout skill. He’s ‘a guy’.

dude he was not going back to school because brian wright told him to lol. he was an early-second rounder AT WORST

under that scenario he could be the 5th pick next year or something.

do you remember when we used to have people that could make a fucking three? that is his skill

[Chinook]

The team's highest lottery pick since Duncan

The Spurs literally had a higher pick last year.

[exstatic]

Shooting......

38% from 3 is a elite skill? Trey Murphy’s shooting line was 50/43/93, and he was taken 5 picks later. That’s elite shooting. Oh, and he’s pretty elite with help defense. He’s also 6’9”. Just sayin’.

[JeffDuncan]

38% from 3 is a elite skill? Trey Murphy’s shooting line was 50/43/93, and he was taken 5 picks later. That’s elite shooting. Oh, and he’s pretty elite with help defense. He’s also 6’9”. Just sayin’.


Yep...

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs literally had a higher pick last year.

Oh yeah. :lol Vassell felt like a 14 or 15.

[John B]

I'm still puzzled why Primo came out this year.
True. He could be lottery next year at 19. But heck, the Spurs picked him :lol

[J_Paco]

38% from 3 is a elite skill? Trey Murphy’s shooting line was 50/43/93, and he was taken 5 picks later. That’s elite shooting. Oh, and he’s pretty elite with help defense. He’s also 6’9”. Just sayin’.

You said nothing of elite and asked what his standout skill was..........

Shooting (or three - point shooting to be exact).

Plus, I didn't like the pick either (actually hated it) but the reality is that is who they chose.

They'll need to either pick up some size in FA or hope Samanic + Bates-Diop can really contribute (I'll cry if it's the latter alone).

[Chinook]

I actually like KBD still and think he'd be a fine rotational forward for the team. I'd just rather see him have to earn those minutes from good competition and not be gifted them due to a shitty roster.

[R. DeMurre]

I'm still puzzled why Primo came out this year.

$... that's an easy one, I'd say. The whole business is too high stakes to risk not coming out.

[J_Paco]

That pick felt like our Anfernee Simons pick and so far that has had middling results for Portland.

I like the kid's youth, perimeter shooting ability and defensive potential, but his lack of explosiveness athletically is very, very concerning.

He'll have to become a lot better and a more dynamic ballhandler to compensate for that lack of vertical pop/explosive first - step.

[mo7888]

Yes, and I'm hoping they trade someone, as I've said enough now to where it's annoying. Even if they were planning on getting rid of a guard, I still think they'd believe Primo was BPA. Their are other ways to fill the guard minutes like free agency. They didn't HAVE to draft one at 12 to do that if there was more talented prospects at other positions. The only way I would expect them to pick Primo against BPA is if they were specifically trying to trade him to a team that thought Josh was BPA and wanted him in a deal.

Yes, the Spurs had him as BPA on their board. Frankly, I don't understand people questioning that... I do understand them questioning how accurate their board was but that's a different discussion entirely.. Hopefully, a trade or two is coming but, I'm not getting my hopes up with the FO anymore..

[R. DeMurre]

Oh well, I guess all we can do now is wait and see. I can't help thinking though that if Primo had been picked by Sacramento or Orlando in this range, there wouldn't be pages & pages of analysis attempting to justify an almost universally panned pick... I think it'd be a lot of " :lmao Classic Kings move" and the like, & then on to other topics.

[Mr. Body]

$... that's an easy one, I'd say. The whole business is too high stakes to risk not coming out.

Mm, dunno. He projected as late 1st round at best this year and potential lottery next. Falling into the 2nd this year would have been a disaster compared to the jack he'd make next time around as a lottery. I mean, it worked for him, but it's strange.

[tmtcsc]

I'm still puzzled why Primo came out this year.

Same here. You're 18 years old, average 8 points a game & decide to enter the draft. The funniest thing about all this is that he couldn't believe he was picked as early as he was. As much confidence as he has in himslef, as much as he believed he could get drafted in the NBA, he was still surprised he was picked at 12. He even told his agent sarcastically "shut up" when he was told the Spurs were going to take him. What a colossal whiff. I have zero confidence in this front office.

[exstatic]

Oh well, I guess all we can do now is wait and see. I can't help thinking though that if Primo had been picked by Sacramento or Orlando in this range, there wouldn't be pages & pages of analysis attempting to justify an almost universally panned pick... I think it'd be a lot of " :lmao Classic Kings move" and the like, & then on to other topics.

I scoffed at OKC for picking Huestes, and that was a late first rounder, so, probably not.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd been excited about the draft since the season ended, and then when we picked it was like those videos you see of the horrible parents who prank their kids with a PlayStation box on Christmas, and then fill it with socks.

My confidence in the Spurs FO has dwindled to zero.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd been excited about the draft since the season ended, and then when we picked it was like those videos you see of the horrible parents who prank their kids with a PlayStation box on Christmas, and then fill it with socks.

My confidence in the Spurs FO has dwindled to zero.

[DPG21920]

I’m fine with Primo the player. To be honest there was no one left that I personally felt bad about missing on. It’s, for me, about the bigger picture but it’s onto FA now and SA FO needs to show a pulse.

If they both let ddr walk for nothing while simultaneously throw big money at a player like Lauri they are toast.

[R. DeMurre]

I think using the phrase "exhibited flashes" on a prospect with underwhelming raw stats, metrics, and eye test moves has become the scouting equivalent of a teacher telling her classroom of 9 year olds that anyone can become president of the United States when they grow up... if they just work hard enough and dream. Sure, it's true in the most general sense...

[Atl Spur]

That pick felt like our Anfernee Simons pick and so far that has had middling results for Portland.

I like the kid's youth, perimeter shooting ability and defensive potential, but his lack of explosiveness athletically is very, very concerning.

He'll have to become a lot better and a more dynamic ballhandler to compensate for that lack of vertical pop/explosive first - step.

Sir, 38 inch verticals aren’t run of the mill😂 we will see very soon if Patfo were misguided; I bet the rest of the league is second guessing themselves about primo!

[Mr. Body]

Yes, the Spurs had him as BPA on their board. Frankly, I don't understand people questioning that... I do understand them questioning how accurate their board was but that's a different discussion entirely.. Hopefully, a trade or two is coming but, I'm not getting my hopes up with the FO anymore..

We have no idea what their board looked like.

[rjv]

his GF is hot, his stepmom is hot and he has a great basketball name that is tailor-made for HEB commercials. just focusing on some of the other positives. obviously, i'll root for the kid.

[Mr. Body]

I think using the phrase "exhibited flashes" on a prospect with underwhelming raw stats, metrics, and eye test moves has become the scouting equivalent of a teacher telling her classroom of 9 year olds that anyone can become president of the United States when they grow up... if they just work hard enough and dream. Sure, it's true in the most general sense...

It's part a consequence of how the NBA drafts now. Used to be, even into the 90s, that you'd draft seniors, maybe some guys who left college a bit early, and you'd have a man. You'd have someone who knew how to play basketball. Knew team sets, knew what to do in many situations, had competed. This player was expected to step in and contribute quickly.

Nowadays there are hugely speculative picks and most players are extremely raw. Yes, there are studs that contribute quickly, but for the most part it's like sifting sand looking for tiny glints.

[Mr. Body]

I think using the phrase "exhibited flashes" on a prospect with underwhelming raw stats, metrics, and eye test moves has become the scouting equivalent of a teacher telling her classroom of 9 year olds that anyone can become president of the United States when they grow up... if they just work hard enough and dream. Sure, it's true in the most general sense...

It's part a consequence of how the NBA drafts now. Used to be, even into the 90s, that you'd draft seniors, maybe some guys who left college a bit early, and you'd have a man. You'd have someone who knew how to play basketball. Knew team sets, knew what to do in many situations, had competed. This player was expected to step in and contribute quickly.

Nowadays there are hugely speculative picks and most players are extremely raw. Yes, there are studs that contribute quickly, but for the most part it's like sifting sand looking for tiny glints.

[baseline bum]

Well if this is how the Spurs are going to draft, I'm official off of Team Tank. Shit max out DePression and double Mills' salary while we're at it.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Exactly my thoughts. This player is still there next year. They punted this year for a player who would still only be around #12 next year. Big opportunity cost in doing so.

This is a Jerry Jones esque level fucking up of the entire concept of being a GM.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

So the silver lining Popsucker take is that we are tanking so hard and want to tank the tankiest of all tanks that we actually tank our own lottery pick to ensure our next pick is even higher? Wut?

[exstatic]

Sir, 38 inch verticals aren’t run of the mill�� we will see very soon if Patfo were misguided; I bet the rest of the league is second guessing themselves about primo!

Actually, in a guard, these days that is pretty pedestrian. I mean, you had a guy jump 10” higher at the combine this year.

[R. DeMurre]

Mm, dunno. He projected as late 1st round at best this year and potential lottery next. Falling into the 2nd this year would have been a disaster compared to the jack he'd make next time around as a lottery. I mean, it worked for him, but it's strange.


I don't know his or his family's financial situation, but I guess I'd look at someone like Tre Jones as a worst case scenario, and he made $900,000 this year and will make $1.5mil next season. For a lot of people that's a permanent financial fix, with the prospect of much more coming down the road, so I can totally understand going for that instead of returning to a college that doesn't looked primed to do anything especially unique, and risking injury.

[BacktoBasics]

Sengun being there would have been a better risk/reward

[Mr. Body]

Sengun being there would have been a better risk/reward

Easily. Maybe Sengun busts completely. I doubt it, but he could. But at least he can contribute right away. Even if he's a Luis Scola redux, he's something we don't have on this squad.

I'll never really understand it. Maybe they didn't want to deal with a non-English speaker or he's a supporter of Erdogan or something.

[jjspur]

I keep hearing over and over that players like primo and luka get drafted for their potential in 2 years, or that they don't think they'll be available in the 2nd round so they drafted earlier than they should. Why not draft a player that can help immediately ? They were available.
Do you really think that developing in Austin against G-league talent is better than developing on an NBA bench playing against NBA talent. All star competition in the G-league is not all star competition in the NBA. If Luka averages 8 pts and 5 rebounds a game next season, we are all going to go nuts, but think of all the players picked after Luka that have done that already for two years. Now think if Primo averages 8 pts per game 3 years from now, think how well known players like Sengun or Duarte or even Kispert will be be doing next season and the season after that. Again they were available.

To add insult to injury they will be paying Primo a top salary to play against G League talent making 100 times less.

I know I know experience and repititions, but after two years where has that gotten Samanic. I just dont think that's all that great of a strategy for drafting players especially in the lottery.

[rjv]

Sengun being there would have been a better risk/reward

i think timvp may have been correct in ruling out sengun to the spurs before the draft based on how the spurs have moved away from the post-up philosophy. sengun, for now at least, is a low blocks player that the spurs would have had to turn into a stretch 4 and so i wasn't shocked that sengun was left on the board.

[daslicer]

That pick felt like our Anfernee Simons pick and so far that has had middling results for Portland.

I like the kid's youth, perimeter shooting ability and defensive potential, but his lack of explosiveness athletically is very, very concerning.

He'll have to become a lot better and a more dynamic ballhandler to compensate for that lack of vertical pop/explosive first - step.

He will need to develop old man game like James Harden.

[daslicer]

I don't know his or his family's financial situation, but I guess I'd look at someone like Tre Jones as a worst case scenario, and he made $900,000 this year and will make $1.5mil next season. For a lot of people that's a permanent financial fix, with the prospect of much more coming down the road, so I can totally understand going for that instead of returning to a college that doesn't looked primed to do anything especially unique, and risking injury.

Second round is still always a risk because you can still get cut and not make the team. Once that happens then you are looking at possibly going to G-league or Europe. Europe is also more competitive now from what I have heard it's not as easy to make a ton of money down there for an American like it once was 10 years ago.

[Mr. Body]

i think timvp may have been correct in ruling out sengun to the spurs before the draft based on how the spurs have moved away from the post-up philosophy. sengun, for now at least, is a low blocks player that the spurs would have had to turn into a stretch 4 and so i wasn't shocked that sengun was left on the board.

It'll be interesting to see how he plays alongside Jalen Green in Houston. Rockets have some mismatched parts and may need to make trades, but there are some good things going on there.

[rjv]

It'll be interesting to see how he plays alongside Jalen Green in Houston. Rockets have some mismatched parts and may need to make trades, but there are some good things going on there.

yeah-i thought houston had a solid night. sengun might fit next to wood as more traditional 4 and, of course, green will make them better in all kinds of ways. picking up garuba was a nice addition as well.

[mo7888]

We have no idea what their board looked like.

Yea we do... they said they were taking BPA...they made a selection...case closed on that.. you may think their board is wrong (I think their board is wrong) but there board was what it was...and you or I disagreeing with their order doesn't change their view.

[Spursfanfromafar]

My problem is that the spurs didn't pick the BPA. The player with the most upside left at the time they picked Primo was the 18 year old who dominated the third best basketball league in the world. He is barely a few months older than Primo and had a way stronger resume than any 18-19 year old including those who were picked ahead of him. If his defense was the sticking point, there are more ways to iron that out over time than they are with Primo. What a bad miss by PATFO

[Chinook]

While the Spurs' scouting ability should still get the benefit of the doubt in my opinion, I don't think their developmental ability should. I don't know that they've done an above-average job with a player in a long time. So no, I don't think the idea of drafting Samanic as a two-year d-league project or stowing Primo away is a good idea. That's not the way most teams develop their top prospects, and it shouldn't be the way a team with such a lack of talent does so either. Doing so suggests the team is still a contender that has a full 10-man rotation and can't afford to give minutes to developmental players. That's not even close to true anymore. Devin Booker stared 51 games and averaged 28 minutes his rookie season despite being 18 years old when the season started. Giannis was starting two weeks after his 19th birthday. If you don't think Primo is good enough to unseat fucking Tre Jones, you can't draft him at 12. You just can't. Samanic should've been in the running for starting PF going into last year. Nothing about Lyles or that goddamned tiny hydra lineup should've stopped him.

[Mr. Body]

Yea we do... they said they were taking BPA...they made a selection...case closed on that.. you may think their board is wrong (I think their board is wrong) but there board was what it was...and you or I disagreeing with their order doesn't change their view.

Um... we don't know what their board looked like. We know what they said. We don't how what the truth is.

[Prime BEEF]

So the silver lining Popsucker take is that we are tanking so hard and want to tank the tankiest of all tanks that we actually tank our own lottery pick to ensure our next pick is even higher? Wut?
Pretty much

[Arcadian]

This isn't the time to be doing a "draft and stash" as if we're in the mid-2000s dynasty. :lol We needed somebody who can make an immediate impact.

[mo7888]

Um... we don't know what their board looked like. We know what they said. We don't how what the truth is.

Well, I guess we can assume they were sitting there and had somebody higher than Primo on their board and just said...well fuck it, let's screw with the fan base for shits and giggles...

It makes no logical sense for any GM to put himself on the line like that... So we can deduce that Primo was the top of their board at 12...

[Larry O]

Thanks TimVP for your article writeup. Well... Idunno about this one.... Beyond a head scratcher... It was funny when the website crashed last night after the pick, though! You talk about the ST posters having a meltdown! :) Any who, as the smoke is starting to settle a little bit, like everyone else, I'm trying to wrap my mind around this pick by PATFO! From the commentators last night on the draft, to the post draft discussion panel on NBA TV, everyone looked shocked & didn't really know how to comment on the matter, so they just rolled to the next draft pick. :) I just thought that Sengun would be the best pick at 12 since he was available... but in the NBA, when the NBA goes right, the Spurs go left! I just hope they know what they are doing here. I understand that they were locked in on this guy because of his character & IQ and all, & he has a nice shooter's touch. Yeah, that's nice; that is fine & dandy, but at 18 & a whole lot of development to go, he's pretty much a draft & stash in the G-League for a year or two, perhaps. Is he insurance just in case if LW4 doesn't pan out? Well, perhaps, but to me, wings & SG's are dime a dozen! Just look at our roster for starters, before we go out to get someone from free agency! I'm sure that PATFO's vision is to have players who are positionless, & Primo may eventually fit that mold, but Duarte was there; so was Moody; Kispert, even; and Murphy, Mann, Jalen Johnson & Keon Johnson; even Isaiah Jackson was available! And any one of these guys could address immediate needs in the wing or SG positions, since PATFO seems to be infatuated with these positions! Oh well, just venting, but with free agency coming up, I'm expecting PATFO to make a BIG SPLASH with F/A signings such as with Collins at ATL, & perhaps make good choices with signing some other productive bench players who can space the floor & play defense. They will have all of that cap space, so, hopefully, they will have success there & won't disappoint, but with this team, I'm not going to hold my breath or I'll be dead, 50 times over! :) I'm looking forward to the press conference as the Spurs will be introducing both Primo & Wieskamp, soon, to hear what Wright & the new draftees have to say. Also will be looking forward to Summer League in August to see these guys in action. Hopefully they will not disappoint & prove us wrong! GSG!!!

[SAGirl]

I’d note that a couple of times I saw rumors …. They are out there and not made up but dont ask me to find them bc I dont have time for that… anyways, the local SA media commented that the Spurs worked out and looked at a lot of guards. I remember the fans, mostly led by Dejounte bc hes the most thorough with scouting as its a hobby I think, looked at other kind of prospects besides the guards that were slotted high in the lottery. No one was combing the guards who were unheralded and projected later.

I kind of referenced it in a few posts in the predraft thread, but Ill be the first to admit I had no interest whatsoever in combing out through the lower ranked guards to find some that I liked. Even if I had done that I couldn’t have predicted this pick.

For the future, pay attention to good performers at the combine bc White, Samanic and now Primo were all combine standouts, and pay attention to the guards. They clearly don’t mind being guard heavy and here we are.

Thanks for the insight to all who scouted him some, since this guy was nowhere in my radar. Its why I find being laid back about the draft works out the best for me.

[exstatic]

It'll be interesting to see how he plays alongside Jalen Green in Houston. Rockets have some mismatched parts and may need to make trades, but there are some good things going on there.

Unless the Thunder subsequently flipped him, he’s in OKC, not Houston. OKC picked Sengun with #16.

[SAGirl]

Also thanks for your candid impressions TimvP appreciate it. :bobo

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Unless the Thunder subsequently flipped him, he’s in OKC, not Houston. OKC picked Sengun with #16.

OKC traded pick 16 to Houston for 2 future heavily protected firsts via Washington and Detroit.

[Dejounte]

I’d note that a couple of times I saw rumors …. They are out there and not made up but dont ask me to find them bc I dont have time for that… anyways, the local SA media commented that the Spurs worked out and looked at a lot of guards. I remember the fans, mostly led by Dejounte bc hes the most thorough with scouting as its a hobby I think, looked at other kind of prospects besides the guards that were slotted high in the lottery. No one was combing the guards who were unheralded and projected later.

I kind of referenced it in a few posts in the predraft thread, but Ill be the first to admit I had no interest whatsoever in combing out through the lower ranked guards to find some that I liked. Even if I had done that I couldn’t have predicted this pick.

For the future, pay attention to good performers at the combine bc White, Samanic and now Primo were all combine standouts, and pay attention to the guards. They clearly don’t mind being guard heavy and here we are.

Thanks for the insight to all who scouted him some, since this guy was nowhere in my radar. Its why I find being laid back about the draft works out the best for me.

They (Wieskamp and Primo) were also reported to have workouts with the Spurs so that’s a key thing to lookout for in future pre-draft speculation. It was out in the open. Not very secret.

[exstatic]

So, they had three first rounder from last night? Oh, and they picked up a future first from Utah for eating Favors contract.

They’ve got so many picks, eventually it will just become the Thundraft, sponsored by the NBA.

[Drom John]

"My" board was a straight theft of Pelton's.
Why do I like the Primo pick? Primo was 14th on my list. AKA, a lottery pick.
Why don't I like the Primo pick? At the time of the pick Primo was 8th on my board.
Who was 7th at the time of the 12th pick? Weiskamp.

BTW, Pelton is an extreme numbers guy. Primo at 14 means, Primo had better numbers than eight eye-tested players drafted ahead of Primo.

[Spurtacular]

I'll bet there's at least three busts 11-20, so Spurs won't be alone.

[K...]

it's premature to say anything until we know who is coaching the spurs this year and next. if pop circles the drain, then blind picking prospects may be the only strategy. We just have to accept that this team is going to fully bottom out before rising. And i mean that saying goodbye to pafto. What i mean, is that when the new coach comes in, they should preferably have a true lower lottery pick to rebuild the team and a set of young role players, and a few draft trade agreements . So swinging for the big star, despite having the capspace to do so, may be punted for two years to let Pop stat pad for up to two years.

[Mr. Body]

"My" board was a straight theft of Pelton's.
Why do I like the Primo pick? Primo was 14th on my list. AKA, a lottery pick.
Why don't I like the Primo pick? At the time of the pick Primo was 8th on my board.
Who was 7th at the time of the 12th pick? Weiskamp.

BTW, Pelton is an extreme numbers guy. Primo at 14 means, Primo had better numbers than eight eye-tested players drafted ahead of Primo.

There's no way this is possible.

[R. DeMurre]

Pelton's stat based projection list-- probably can't see if you don't have ESPN+.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/31890625/nba-draft-2021-ranking-top-30-prospects-based-stats-scouting

[Kurik]

There's no way this is possible.

For context Pelton had Sengun number 1 on his board. Below are Primo and Wieskamp.


14. Joshua Primo (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4702176/joshua-primo)

Guard | Alabama
Top 100: No. 25
Stats: No. 14
Consensus: 1.3 WARP
Age is the biggest selling point for Primo, the youngest player in this year's top 100. He won't turn 19 until December. Given how much younger he was than his opponents, Primo was effective at Alabama as a part-time starter, knocking down 38% of his 3-point attempts.

18. Joe Wieskamp (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4397033/joe-wieskamp)Forward | Iowa
Top 100: No. 52
Stats: No. 13
Consensus: 0.9 WARP
Given the nearly 40-spot difference between Kispert and Wieskamp in the top 100, their statistical projections are remarkably similar -- and even favor Wieskamp defensively. He was the slightly better catch-and-shoot option, shooting an effective 65% on such attempts last season according to Synergy Sports, good for 10th among players with at least 100 attempts. (Kispert was 18th at 63%.)

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Pelton's 2020 list :
1.LaMelo
2.Haliburton
3.Edwards
...
16.Wiseman
..
31.Toppin

Some misses too of course.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/29335461/2020-nba-draft-projections-ranking-top-30-prospects

[Ondrej]

The problem with all Spurs' abilities is that they are outdated and do not correspond with current team needs and roster, so don't correspond with the reality. The whole strategy for 20 years was finding and creating good system players to support stars. The Spurs did it masterfully. Today it's different totally task, there is no Duncan shoulders to carry the team, but Pop or RC doesn't have abilities or experience in transforming an average team into contender. Surely it affects not only drafting, but also developing players. Personal skills are as important as basketball, all the Spurs stuff about which there is a lot of moaning at the Olympics.
So for me the logic behind Primo's pick is that he can be really the best player by the Spurs outdated metrics and they truly believe to that

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

For context Pelton had Sengun number 1 on his board. Below are Primo and Wieskamp.

14. Joshua Primo

Guard | Alabama
Top 100: No. 25
Stats: No. 14
Consensus: 1.3 WARP
Age is the biggest selling point for Primo, the youngest player in this year's top 100. He won't turn 19 until December. Given how much younger he was than his opponents, Primo was effective at Alabama as a part-time starter, knocking down 38% of his 3-point attempts.

18. Joe Wieskamp

Forward | Iowa
Top 100: No. 52
Stats: No. 13
Consensus: 0.9 WARP
Given the nearly 40-spot difference between Kispert and Wieskamp in the top 100, their statistical projections are remarkably similar -- and even favor Wieskamp defensively. He was the slightly better catch-and-shoot option, shooting an effective 65% on such attempts last season according to Synergy Sports, good for 10th among players with at least 100 attempts. (Kispert was 18th at 63%.)





Well, now we know how the FO targets players. They just subscribe to Pelton's scouting reports on ESPN+. The code has been cracked! :lol

[Kurik]

Well, now we know how the FO targets players. They just subscribe to Pelton's scouting reports on ESPN+. The code has been cracked! :lol

I have to admit there’s some good value out of the free trials I get. I doubt the Spurs pay for it, just use multiple emails.

[SAGirl]

Sounds like the Spurs FO got played. Somebody started a rumor about being interested in Primo, and made sure the Spurs heard it, in hopes the Spurs would react, and not take Sengun. And it worked.

To know who would be responsible for such a rumor, just look where Sengun went. Houston. They took the candy from the baby.

The Spurs FO needs adult supervision.
An unmentioned underrated aspect for sure.

[ginobilized]

As the shock wears off, I'm still scratching my head. Of the many questions that pop up, here are a few:

1) Are the Spurs so independent (distrustful) in the league that they can't count on finding trade partners? Something seems broken in this dept. See Carroll, Morris, etc.

2) Is the Primo pick indicative of a large scale master plan? Trades in the works, free agents, etc.

3) WTF is DJ doing by publicly displaying his disapproval of this pick? Is this common for NBA players regarding their future teammates?

4) As someone who has been waiting for the Spurs to take a big risk and shake up the stats quo, they did just that. Somehow, it feels unsatisfying at present. Are we the most spoiled fan base out there?

5) What if Primo pans out?

[Drom John]

Well, now we know how the FO targets players. They just subscribe to Pelton's scouting reports on ESPN+. The code has been cracked! :lol

Except Primo was 8th on Pelton's list when pick 12 arrived.
Senjun was #1 overall, well ahead of #2 Garuba.

Weiskamp was 2nd on the board when pick 41 arrived.
Undrafted Justin Champagnie was on top.


BTW, the Pelton reply by Kurik is the "Consensus" a merge of the scout-based and Pelton. Pelton alone had Weiskamp #13.

[Degoat]

As the shock wears off, I'm still scratching my head. Of the many questions that pop up, here are a few:

1) Are the Spurs so independent (distrustful) in the league that they can't count on finding trade partners? Something seems broken in this dept. See Carroll, Morris, etc.

2) Is the Primo pick indicative of a large scale master plan? Trades in the works, free agents, etc.

3) WTF is DJ doing by publicly displaying his disapproval of this pick? Is this common for NBA players regarding their future teammates?

4) As someone who has been waiting for the Spurs to take a big risk and shake up the stats quo, they did just that. Somehow, it feels unsatisfying at present. Are we the most spoiled fan base out there?

5) What if Primo pans out?

I was disappointed in DJ, maybe the post wasnt referring to the pick but DJ is going to be the face of the team most likely next season and it shows a lack of leadership if he was referring to Primos selection imo.

[gospursgojas]

What did DJ post?

[PhantomDashCam]

One thing that has served our competitive/playoff teams well that now acts as an ever tightening noose is the idea of veteran deference.

Culture wise, it was accepted that those with more experience, not necessarily the most talented, would play. There was a rite of passage if you will.
But what happens when that team isn’t winning? Should the rules remain the same?

What if the the team believes that the lack of success is directly attributed to a lack of key personnel, skills at certain positions?

Then, you draft a prospect who not only is unlikely to offer assistance winning in the short term, but is also actually gunning for your job…

Will the ‘culture’ still hold sway amongst the group?

DJs post may very well be the beginning….

[TDomination]

This isn't the time to be doing a "draft and stash" as if we're in the mid-2000s dynasty. :lol We needed somebody who can make an immediate impact.

thats what annoys me most. the ONLY thing i looked forward to with being a mediocre to crap team is at least we'll draft players that we can see right away. No more draft and stash.
Yup i was wrong.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Except Primo was 8th on Pelton's list when pick 12 arrived.
Senjun was #1 overall, well ahead of #2 Garuba.

Weiskamp was 2nd on the board when pick 41 arrived.
Undrafted Justin Champagnie was on top.


BTW, the Pelton reply by Kurik is the "Consensus" a merge of the scout-based and Pelton. Pelton alone had Weiskamp #13.

Interesting. Trying to figure out the future potential of these players when they all enter the draft so raw is not a job I envy.

[8sy21vd]

I don’t think anybody knows what the hell the Spurs are doing least of all PATFO. We can only pray Derozan, Mills and Gay want to leave so the organization cam move forward. Then again, with such poop leadership, they’ll just keep making poor decisions setting the franchise back. Hard to be optimistic looking forward until the leadership at the top changes.

[Drom John]

Updating a post from earlier this week, Spurs' picks/Pelton's picks

2006 Damir Markota | all 30 Pelton picks gone by 59
2007 Tiago Splitter | Nick Fazekas
2008 George Hill | Mario Chalmers
2009 DeJuan Blair | DeJuan Blair (overall Pelton #1)
2010 James Anderson | Hassan Whiteside
2011 Kawhi Leonard | Kawhi Leonard; Cory Joseph | Shelvin Mack
2012 Marcus Denmon | Marcus Denmon
2013 Livio Jean-Charles | Jeff Withey
2014 Kyle Anderson | Nikola Jokic (Pelton #4)
2015 Nikola Milutinov | R.J. Hunter
2016 Dejounte Murray | Zhou Qi (or Fred Van Vleet if you doubted Zhou's age)
2017 Derrick White | Monte Morris
2018 Lonnie Walker IV | Dzana Musa
2019 Luka Šamanić | Dedric Lawson ; Keldon Johnson | Bol Bol ; Quinndary Weatherspoon | Shamorie Ponds
2020 Devin Vassell | Tyrese Haliburton (Pelton #3) ; Tre Jones | never saw Pelton's big list, but Jones was #39 in 2019 before he pulled out of the draft.
2021 Joshua Primo | Alperen Sengun (Pelton #1); Joe Weiskamp | Justin Champagnie

[Cardinal]

It's not entirely out of the question that Primo sees some playing time this year. He basically stood in the corner and launched threes for Alabama - no reason why he couldn't perform that same function in a small role off the bench. But of course Wieskamp is better equipped at the moment to fill that same role, and from a developmental standpoint it makes overwhelming sense to throw Primo into a larger role in Austin for most of the season. It's just disappointing since, as others said, one of the exciting aspects of picking in the lottery is you usually get to see those guys contribute on the main squad right away.

[acoelho1]

Wright stated he had the biggest upside of anyone left on their board and the reason he was ranked so low on the mocks had more to do with how he was used at Alabama. Those flashes they saw were more evident at the combine so I don't see the issue here. Given that we don't have a star yet, we need to take a swing on a prospect that's not fully developed but could potentially be something special. I don't see how given all the astute picks in the past that you would question the Spurs scouting team. Sure, you can harp on the not moving down but as Wright also stated, the intel and mocks don't always coincide so clearly they thought he might not be there if they went down to 20 for example.

[timvp]

"My" board was a straight theft of Pelton's.
Why do I like the Primo pick? Primo was 14th on my list. AKA, a lottery pick.
Why don't I like the Primo pick? At the time of the pick Primo was 8th on my board.
Who was 7th at the time of the 12th pick? Weiskamp.

BTW, Pelton is an extreme numbers guy. Primo at 14 means, Primo had better numbers than eight eye-tested players drafted ahead of Primo.

Well, the most important "number" that gave Primo a boost in Pelton's model is his age. The model gives young players a big head start (that's why all the young players in the draft are rated high in his model and the old players like Duarte, Kispert and Mitchell are low) -- and then subtracts for inefficiency. Primo shot threes well enough that he wasn't inefficient overall. He didn't do anything too notable number-wise other than shoot a lot of threes and do so at a decent clip but he also wasn't hemorrhaging points at a young age -- so that's enough for Pelton's model to be high on him.

[RC_Drunkford]

While the Spurs' scouting ability should still get the benefit of the doubt in my opinion, I don't think their developmental ability should. I don't know that they've done an above-average job with a player in a long time. So no, I don't think the idea of drafting Samanic as a two-year d-league project or stowing Primo away is a good idea. That's not the way most teams develop their top prospects, and it shouldn't be the way a team with such a lack of talent does so either. Doing so suggests the team is still a contender that has a full 10-man rotation and can't afford to give minutes to developmental players. That's not even close to true anymore. Devin Booker stared 51 games and averaged 28 minutes his rookie season despite being 18 years old when the season started. Giannis was starting two weeks after his 19th birthday. If you don't think Primo is good enough to unseat fucking Tre Jones, you can't draft him at 12. You just can't. Samanic should've been in the running for starting PF going into last year. Nothing about Lyles or that goddamned tiny hydra lineup should've stopped him.

That would require Pop to change his approach, but he only has one. He still treats this team like Duncan, Manu and Parker are on it. The man only knows how to do it one way, he's never been in a different setting for his entire career as a heacoach. If we really get Collins I totally expect Pop to treat him like he's prime LaMarcus Aldridge

[Ocotillo]

I was just thinking, there was talk of taking Duarte at 12. Primo is almost 6 years younger than Duarte. Not that that means anything, just an observation

[Dejounte]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

[Ocotillo]

Good to see you back Dejounte. You may have been around last night but I was still in shock after the Primo pick and kind of just stared like a deer in headlights until pick 41.

[Dejounte]

Good to see you back Dejounte. You may have been around last night but I was still in shock after the Primo pick and kind of just stared like a deer in headlights until pick 41.

you and me the same, brother

[timvp]

I still can't wrap my head around this pick ...

-Primo's value was mostly due to the thinking that if he had gone back to Alabama and played really well, he probably becomes a late lottery pick in 2022. He wasn't going to become a high lottery pick because he doesn't have the physical tools to be a high lottery pick -- but he could have gone back to Alabama and worked himself into that 10 to 15 range if all went well.

-Primo decides to stick in the draft after elevating his stock from the middle of the second round to the end of the first or beginning of the second. Teams drafting in that range would have viewed him as a pretty good investment, with the logic being that they'd spend a ~28th pick in 2021 on a guy who had like a 50/50 shot of being a ~12th pick in 2022. That math checks out.

-But ... the Spurs pick him instead with a late lottery pick in 2021. Trying to get that logic to work is difficult. For it to make sense, they have to be like 100% certain he is going to make that big jump. Without that big jump, there was no way he was going to be a lottery pick next year -- he would be a second rounder to undrafted without a sizeable leap forward. Picking him in the lottery this year made so little sense that Primo himself was shocked. I don't remember seeing a lottery pick who was so blown away by being picked in the lottery. I bet his agent was equally as stunned :lol

So, yeah, just a real head-scratcher. One scenario that may make sense is that the Spurs really wanted a developmental perimeter shooter. The two developmental perimeter shooters that stand out in this draft were Ziaire Williams and Primo. After Ziaire went tenth (a little surprising), perhaps that scared them enough to not trade back. Trading back when there's two guys you like is a lot easier than when you're down to the final player you really want.

I've also had the thought that this could have been a Chip Engelland pick. After taking a closer look at Primo's form, it's exactly how Engelland teaches. He prepares for the shot well, has a short, repeatable stroke, releases his off-hand before the shot is released and gets full extension. I could imagine Engelland looking at Primo shooting in a gym and telling everyone that he's going to be a great shooter down the line. Then if you look at him only as a shooting prospect, his 38% three-point shooting as a freshman in the SEC when he was the youngest player in college basketball makes him an enticing pick for a shooting starved team -- especially when you add in his elite character traits. On the other hand, though, using the late lottery to take an unproven shooting prospect with little upside elsewhere in his game is not a good use of that asset.

But bottom line, this goes down as at best a strange pick ... at worst a wasted pick. We'll see but it certainly doesn't give me confidence that the Spurs know how to pick in the lottery. Locking into one or two guys is okay when you're picking late in the first but it's a bad strategy when you're in the lottery.

[Atl Spur]

I really hope he sucks for some of you the sky is falling dudes..... do your job and let them do theirs������. If he has a great summer league you’ll be d*ck riding to the highest power! Just chill....

[Dejounte]

^the year before Obi Toppin was drafted, the Spurs were one of the few teams who worked him out. Obi was nowhere near projected as a 1st round pick that year.

Very possible they see that kind of leap in Primo. I mean, only explanation why they’d pick him and pretty much the explanation they gave to the media.

we will see how it goes.
timvp

[bigfan]

Haven't seen this since Alfredrick Hughes.

[Mugen]

I still can't wrap my head around this pick ...

-Primo's value was mostly due to the thinking that if he had gone back to Alabama and played really well, he probably becomes a late lottery pick in 2022. He wasn't going to become a high lottery pick because he doesn't have the physical tools to be a high lottery pick -- but he could have gone back to Alabama and worked himself into that 10 to 15 range if all went well.

-Primo decides to stick in the draft after elevating his stock from the middle of the second round to the end of the first or beginning of the second. Teams drafting in that range would have viewed him as a pretty good investment, with the logic being that they'd spend a ~28th pick in 2021 on a guy who had like a 50/50 shot of being a ~12th pick in 2022. That math checks out.

-But ... the Spurs pick him instead with a late lottery pick in 2021. Trying to get that logic to work is difficult. For it to make sense, they have to be like 100% certain he is going to make that big jump. Without that big jump, there was no way he was going to be a lottery pick next year -- he would be a second rounder to undrafted without a sizeable leap forward. Picking him in the lottery this year made so little sense that Primo himself was shocked. I don't remember seeing a lottery pick who was so blown away by being picked in the lottery. I bet his agent was equally as stunned :lol

So, yeah, just a real head-scratcher. One scenario that may make sense is that the Spurs really wanted a developmental perimeter shooter. The two developmental perimeter shooters that stand out in this draft were Ziaire Williams and Primo. After Ziaire went tenth (a little surprising), perhaps that scared them enough to not trade back. Trading back when there's two guys you like is a lot easier than when you're down to the final player you really want.

I've also had the thought that this could have been a Chip Engelland pick. After taking a closer look at Primo's form, it's exactly how Engelland teaches. He prepares for the shot well, has a short, repeatable stroke, releases his off-hand before the shot is released and gets full extension. I could imagine Engelland looking at Primo shooting in a gym and telling everyone that he's going to be a great shooter down the line. Then if you look at him only as a shooting prospect, his 38% three-point shooting as a freshman in the SEC when he was the youngest player in college basketball makes him an enticing pick for a shooting starved team -- especially when you add in his elite character traits. On the other hand, though, using the late lottery to take an unproven shooting prospect with little upside elsewhere in his game is not a good use of that asset.

But bottom line, this goes down as at best a strange pick ... at worst a wasted pick. We'll see but it certainly doesn't give me confidence that the Spurs know how to pick in the lottery. Locking into one or two guys is okay when you're picking late in the first but it's a bad strategy when you're in the lottery.

I guarantee that there is no way Brian was that in-depth in his thinking/approach when he made that pick. You know it and I know it, 100% guarantee :lol

[Cardinal]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

Not to get too into the weeds on this (but I guess I will lol) but Murray seemed to be grimacing in the photo and he clearly used the "grimace" emoji. I think it's more of a stretch to say he was smiling. Regardless, he has since deleted the tweet, which I think is telling. It wasn't a good look at all from the leader of the team. It may not have been directly about disliking the Primo pick, but rather what Murray thought the pick meant about his own future with the team.

[Atl Spur]

I guarantee that there is no way Brian was that in-depth in his thinking/approach when he made that pick. You know it and I know it, 100% guarantee :lol

How do you know again? Indulge us please...

[timvp]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

The tweet looks like it's been deleted but I'm pretty sure it was posted like an hour after the Spurs made the pick. It probably wasn't even regarding the pick :lol

[Mugen]

After this FO's track record from the last 3 years, it's absolutely hilarious that some of you are still trying to mental gymnastics your way into justifying this absolutely dumbass pick :lol

The most obvious reason for why Primo was picked that high is the FO is an absolute mess and has no idea what they're doing. Simply look at how they've approached trading, free agency, and asset management since Kawhi f'd them over (honestly started even earlier than that) if you need any type of evidence of their ineptitude.

The only thing they had going for them recently was drafting and they decided to take a massive shit all over that last night :lol

Outside of the Kings, I honestly can't think of a worst organization in the league in terms of how their next 5 years is projected to look. Some of you are just absolutely delusional that the FO can continue to operate how they did when they had a Top 5 player of all time on their roster and should still be given the benefit of the doubt.

The brain drain they've experienced for the last 10-20 years is massive and it's legit embarrassing that their current braintrust consists of an old man way past his prime and a young GM whose resume is filled with absolutely terrible decisions.

This team is absolutely fucked for the next decade tbh :lol

[R. DeMurre]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.


He deleted it. Funny that he'd delete a positive, well meaning post.

[Mugen]

How do you know again? Indulge us please...

Oh I don't know, maybe because literally every single of that idiot's GM moves in the last 3 years has been absolute trash. :lol

We know that you're still of the mindset that this FO deserves the benefit of the doubt even though literally every single thing they've done for the last 3 years has been absolute shit. This ain't 2000-2015 anymore, old man :lol

[Ocotillo]

I have to say I was trying to figure out how he fits with the current roster as he is so young. By the time he is done in Austin, DWhite will be nearing retirement so I guess he's Derrick's replacement.

In all seriousness, this has to mean at least one of the younger guards is going to be traded.

[ducks]

Walker needs to make big strides this year or get out

[Atl Spur]

After this FO's track record from the last 3 years, it's absolutely hilarious that some of you are still trying to mental gymnastics your way into justifying this absolutely dumbass pick :lol

The most obvious reason for why Primo was picked that high is the FO is an absolute mess and has no idea what they're doing. Simply look at how they've approached trading, free agency, and asset management since Kawhi f'd them over (honestly started even earlier than that) if you need any type of evidence of their ineptitude.

The only thing they had going for them recently was drafting and they decided to take a massive shit all over that last night :lol

Outside of the Kings, I honestly can't think of a worst organization in the league in terms of how their next 5 years is projected to look. Some of you are just absolutely delusional that the FO can continue to operate how they did when they had a Top 5 player of all time on their roster and should still be given the benefit of the doubt.

The brain drain they've experienced for the last 10-20 years is massive and it's legit embarrassing that their current braintrust consists of an old man way past his prime and a young GM whose resume is filled with absolutely terrible decisions.

This team is absolutely fucked for the next decade tbh :lol
Find a new team...you deserve better! Take your talents elsewhere big guy!

[timvp]

Not to get too into the weeds on this (but I guess I will lol) but Murray seemed to be grimacing in the photo and he clearly used the "grimace" emoji. I think it's more of a stretch to say he was smiling. Regardless, he has since deleted the tweet, which I think is telling. It wasn't a good look at all from the leader of the team. It may not have been directly about disliking the Primo pick, but rather what Murray thought the pick meant about his own future with the team.

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol

[Atl Spur]

Oh I don't know, maybe because literally every single of that idiot's GM moves in the last 3 years has been absolute trash. :lol

We know that you're still of the mindset that this FO deserves the benefit of the doubt even though literally every single thing they've done for the last 3 years has been absolute shit. This ain't 2000-2015 anymore, old man :lol

You do realize RC and Pop are still in the building right? Do I need to elaborate ?

[Atl Spur]

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol

He’s just as much a point guard as Murray in their eyes based off the statement��

[Mugen]

Brian Wrong: "I just got some insider info that this penny stock MIGHT hit $100 dollars this time next year. Let me pay $99 for it now."


https://i.imgflip.com/1l1vwn.jpg?a452040

[PhantomDashCam]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

My emoji game may be off but they were grimaces..clenched teeth…matching a similar photo of the man, posted shortly after the Spurs picked. Make of it what you will.

[Mugen]

You do realize RC and Pop are still in the building right? Do I need to elaborate ?

Yeah and with those geniuses still in the war room, the Spurs have managed to miss the playoffs 2 years in a row without a top 10 pick to show for it nor an type of All-Star level talent on the roster. So glad they're still part of the organization, maybe with next year's lottery pick they can draft a time machine back to relevancy :lol

[Atl Spur]

Yeah and with those geniuses still in the war room, the Spurs have managed to miss the playoffs 2 years in a row without a top 10 pick to show for it nor an type of All-Star level talent on the roster. So glad they're still part of the organization, maybe with next year's lottery pick they can draft a time machine back to relevancy :lol

Nice try little buddy.... be well.

[Mugen]

My emoji game may be off but they were grimaces..clenched teeth…matching a similar photo of the man, posted shortly after the Spurs picked. Make of it what you will.

They absolutely were, anybody that says otherwise is delusional.

Dejounte tweeted out what anybody in the fan base with a half a brain realized...

Wouldn't be surprised if he's on the move soon with the kind of stuff he's been putting out on social media recently. He's usually an idiot on that channel anyways but the last month or so has been questionable even for him. Don't blame him one bit tbh :lol

[Dejounte]

He deleted it. Funny that he'd delete a positive, well meaning post.


my rebuttal here is he probably saw all the responses similar to here and didn’t mean to garner that type of response. Needless to say, it’s still a connecting the dots type of thing that can’t be more than speculation.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol

Amazing to me that Brian Wright would actually say "point guard" with that knowledge at hand. Shouldn't a competent GM be capable of choosing his words more carefully? Murray may have nothing to worry about, but the organization as a whole??? I'm not so sure.

We're putting lipstick on a pig attempting to justify this pick, IMO. If Primo truly was the guy they wanted, they still could have pulled it off while saving face a little bit. It just had the feel of a bottom-dwelling organization really too incompetent to do anything to improve themselves through the draft either by trading down or maximizing their draft position. Heck they could have picked the best available and then worked a deal for whichever team nabbed, or was appearing to be about to nab, Primo if that's who was truly on their radar. I honestly have never been this down on the Spurs' management as I am now. I've tried to give them grace in the management of the team since Kawhi's departure, but other than drafting Keldon there hasn't been a lot to point to that's positive the last couple of years.

[Mugen]

timvp Serious question bruh, what was the last Spurs FO move that made you go: "That was a savvy move"

Even Keldon dropping to 29 was a no-brainer pick :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Brian Wrong: "I just got some insider info that this penny stock MIGHT hit $100 dollars this time next year. Let me pay $99 for it now."





With this lottery pick we're going to have a solid 6'5" guard to play with the second unit in about 4 years, Mugen. Not sure what you're complaining about.

[Degoat]

DJs post was definitely grimacing/Yikes emojis, it was definitely about the Primo selection imo

[rjv]

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol

i caught the tail end of an interview with coach oats of 'bama and he was giving some background on primo;

1) this should be his freshman year in college as he graduated a year early from high school.
2) MRIs and X-rays show that Primo's bone (epiphyseal) plates are still open meaning that he is still growing.
3) they coached him up a lot at the point to start the season but then they backed off to let him do what he does best and let him process the information. then, towards the end of the season, they started playing him at the point again and it started to come together (he specifically mentioned the auburn game). the meniscus tear set him back a bit again but then he started to elevate his game again.
4) his performance at some workouts in LA were great as they had him run the offense and he showed vast improvement in his pick and roll reads.
5) he will likely become a wing who can do it all and could be 6'7" or 6'8".

that was most of what i caught for what it's worth.

[Mugen]

With this lottery pick we're going to have a solid 6'5" guard to play with the second unit in about 4 years, Mugen. Not sure what you're complaining about.

Choppa, you and I both know this FO is going to bring back Mills on another 50 piece come next week. Character, culture and undersized 2 guards....:lobt:

[Dejounte]

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol


also weirded me out that people are saying his competition is Tre. I’m like, no man, his competition is Lonnie and maybe Vassell. Primo has a big frame and will only get bigger. His body somewhat looks like Jrue Holiday out there (who was defending Booker in the playoffs) but with potential to be a little bigger.

[R. DeMurre]

my rebuttal here is he probably saw all the responses similar to here and didn’t mean to garner that type of response. Needless to say, it’s still a connecting the dots type of thing that can’t be more than speculation.


:lol if you're willing to contort the discussion so far as to say those were smiley emojis and not grimace emojis, it's silly to even talk about it. He even added a photo of himself grimacing! It's cool, I don't care. You value being a cheerleader for the team and that's fine. That's just not my thing.

[Dejounte]

:lol if you're willing to contort the discussion so far as to say those were smiley emojis and not grimace emojis, it's silly to even talk about it. He even added a photo of himself grimacing! It's cool, I don't care. You value being a cheerleader for the team and that's fine. That's just not my thing.

You say you want to have basketball discussions, but you always resort to condescending remarks. It’s not very consistent of you.

somehow saying something is speculation is being a cheerleader for the team. Nice.

[Dejounte]

CRhlbvvNoUo

Next to Julian Champagnie who is listed as 6’8”

[C-Dub]

Primo was a good selection. Will probably be at least 6'7" after he's done growing and has a nice wingspan and big hands - sounds familiar (Kawhi). And he already has really good form on his jump shot and more athletic ability than given credit for. The Spurs may not be able to afford/want Lonnie after his contract expires after this season and this could be his replacement. TJ will replace Patty and Luka will get some of Rudy minutes. Also remember, there's a good chance Dieng stays with the team to help out in the bigs department. Jakob, Luka, Dieng and Eubanks and sprinkle in Keldon and KBD at the PF slot and the bigs are covered for this upcoming season and sure they are going to sign a 4/5 in the upcoming free agency. Primo could possibly be one of the Spurs top 3 players by year 3 at only 21 years old. With his deamenor and build, it's possible.

[Leetonidas]

That DJ tweet was very clearly not an endorsement of Primo :lol

[R. DeMurre]

You say you want to have basketball discussions, but you always resort to condescending remarks. It’s not very consistent of you.

somehow saying something is speculation is being a cheerleader for the team. Nice.

No one gets into more angry emotional multi page arguments with multiple posters than you, so there's that. You want objectivity until it's cheerleading time, and then you act like nobody's cheering loud enough for you.

[Maddog]

i caught the tail end of an interview with coach oats of 'bama and he was giving some background on primo;

1) this should be his freshman year in college as he graduated a year early from high school.
2) MRIs and X-rays show that Primo's bone (epiphyseal) plates are still open meaning that he is still growing.
3) they coached him up a lot at the point to start the season but then they backed off to let him do what he does best and let him process the information. then, towards the end of the season, they started playing him at the point again and it started to come together (he specifically mentioned the auburn game). the meniscus tear set him back a bit again but then he started to elevate his game again.
4) his performance at some workouts in LA were great as they had him run the offense and he showed vast improvement in his pick and roll reads.
5) he will likely become a wing who can do it all and could be 6'7" or 6'8".

that was most of what i caught for what it's worth.

Interesting
Is there a link?

[Dejounte]

No one gets into more angry emotional multi page arguments with multiple posters than you, so there's that. You want objectivity until it's cheerleading time, and then you act like nobody's cheering loud enough for you.

Am I asking anybody to cheer? I’m calling out inconsistencies and misinformation. Also very convenient of you to now read between the lines when it suits you when all summer long you were complaining about other people for speculating. It’s almost as bad as when you use statistics like a grandpa who’s trying to learn how to use a cell phone. Hilarious that you say that’s your “thing”.

[rjv]

Interesting
Is there a link?

not sure. it was on live at about 1:15 on 1250 AM, which is the Halftime show w/Rob Thompson and Karl Schoening. it may be found on their audio vault: https://www.sasportsstar.com/audio-vault/

[The Truth #6]

CRhlbvvNoUo

Next to Julian Champagnie who is listed as 6’8”

Probably Justin who is closer to 6’6”. Julian withdrew.

[Kurik]

CRhlbvvNoUo

Next to Julian Champagnie who is listed as 6’8”

Justin is tagged on the picture.

[Cardinal]

I'd be curious to hear that interview with the Alabama coach. It would obviously be a real game changer Primo he grew to 6'7" and especially 6'8" over the next few years. How well can additional growth be predicted just by looking at bone plates? I'm skeptical that this could be something that the front office would really be banking on and factoring into their decision in a significant way

[Dejounte]

Probably Justin who is closer to 6’6”. Julian withdrew.

good catch and thanks for the correction

[Chinook]

also weirded me out that people are saying his competition is Tre. I’m like, no man, his competition is Lonnie and maybe Vassell. Primo has a big frame and will only get bigger. His body somewhat looks like Jrue Holiday out there (who was defending Booker in the playoffs) but with potential to be a little bigger.

His competition is Tre because the open spot on the roster is for the backup PG/shooter spot that Mills has occupied for like eight years. If the Spurs somehow run with the guys on the team now. this would be a projected depth chart

Murray, Jones
White, Walker
Vassell, Wieskamp
Johnson, Samanic
Poeltl, Eubanks

Weatherspoon and KBD are both RFAs and thus could be back. In the very least, I'd want KBD back to add depth at the three and four. Regardless, the backup PG spot is the one with the least competition. There are no first-rounders, vets or better-sized players at that spot. It's not that Jones can't hold onto the spot (I actually expect him to be one of the better SL players in the league this year). But if we're talking about replacing Mills, then nothing is keeping Primo from getting minutes but excuses. It's abnormal for lotto picks to be frozen out by second-rounders and min-salary guys. Primo doesn't have to start off better than those guys, but he'll likely not embarrass himself against them either. And if he can take those shooter minutes while he grows into more, that makes the most sense. Well, it'd make the most sense to trade Murray and start White, Vassell, Johnson and a real PF, sign an expensive backup PG and a solid backup center, and then let Primo, Walker, Wieskamp, KBD and Samanic fight to sort out the middle of the bench. But you take what you can get when it comes to PATFO.

[Dejounte]

I'd be curious to hear that interview with the Alabama coach. It would obviously be a real game changer Primo he grew to 6'7" and especially 6'8" over the next few years. How well can additional growth be predicted just by looking at bone plates? I'm skeptical that this could be something that the front office would really be banking on and factoring into their decision in a significant way

pretty crazy Brian even brought that up (the bone plates thing). Thought it was just discussion from fans.

[Man In Black]

A few thoughts
While I'm disappointed in the pick I think I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt given past track record.
That said, I almost think they are trying to be too clever. It's served them well late in the draft, but in this range?
The other thing to keep in mind is the exploding number of mock drafts and discussions creates unreasonable hype on draft picks. The majority don't pan out. It's really fun to look back at Draft Grades from past drafts and see how many where just wrong. The range the Spurs are in have as many strike outs as home runs

Precisely.
That's a logical take.

[offset formation]

You liked what you saw out of Walker this year? :lmao

more than the year before. his finishing is still a work in progress but his decision making was undoubtedly better. he seems to be a more confident 3-pt shooter now and his defense was *at times* very good.

he has a higher ceiling. hopefully he can get there.

pop seems to be setting him up for a 6th man role and late game closer. similar to the role he tailored for Manu.

Note: he's no Manu. but he's getting better.

[Chinook]

pretty crazy Brian even brought that up (the bone plates thing). Thought it was just discussion from fans.

He's gonna get that D-Rob growth spurt and be the Spurs PF of the future.

[Mugen]

more than the year before. his finishing is still a work in progress but his decision making was undoubtedly better. he seems to be a more confident 3-pt shooter now and his defense was *at times* very good.

he has a higher ceiling. hopefully he can get there.

pop seems to be setting him up for a 6th man role and late game closer. similar to the role he tailored for Manu.

Note: he's no Manu. but he's getting better.

My man, Pop hasn't set Walker up for shit let alone a Manu type role :lol

I too believe in Walker's talent. But he's mentally weak and I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that he won't really be able to realize his potential until he gets away from the old man/team.

[BacktoBasics]

I'd be curious to hear that interview with the Alabama coach. It would obviously be a real game changer Primo he grew to 6'7" and especially 6'8" over the next few years. How well can additional growth be predicted just by looking at bone plates? I'm skeptical that this could be something that the front office would really be banking on and factoring into their decision in a significant way
Did they check his DNA, maybe his blood is AIDS resistant. Latex allergies? These things matter.

Next year we’ll hear “good bone structure and we like his platelets, Spurs material”

[Man In Black]

Man - I come back after a long time away from here and I hope to read some logical takes as to why the Spurs take a guy like Primo at #12 when he was mocked to go no higher than say 20 or so. I am dumbfounded that all I see is whining here.

BAMA has taken over the world.

Doesn't anybody even fact-check anymore?

Is there any reason that PATFO would make a selection at #12 that maximizes value? Any reason at all that you can think of?
There's got to be at least 1 logical reason. Just 1.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/94c1ace8107c9ba76f2bd7f0691b27f0/tenor.gif?itemid=14454957

[rjv]

He's gonna get that D-Rob growth spurt and be the Spurs PF of the future.

i'm all for a little divine intervention.

[Man In Black]

His competition is Tre because the open spot on the roster is for the backup PG/shooter spot that Mills has occupied for like eight years. If the Spurs somehow run with the guys on the team now. this would be a projected depth chart

Murray, Jones
White, Walker
Vassell, Wieskamp
Johnson, Samanic
Poeltl, Eubanks

Weatherspoon and KBD are both RFAs and thus could be back. In the very least, I'd want KBD back to add depth at the three and four. Regardless, the backup PG spot is the one with the least competition. There are no first-rounders, vets or better-sized players at that spot. It's not that Jones can't hold onto the spot (I actually expect him to be one of the better SL players in the league this year). But if we're talking about replacing Mills, then nothing is keeping Primo from getting minutes but excuses. It's abnormal for lotto picks to be frozen out by second-rounders and min-salary guys. Primo doesn't have to start off better than those guys, but he'll likely not embarrass himself against them either. And if he can take those shooter minutes while he grows into more, that makes the most sense. Well, it'd make the most sense to trade Murray and start White, Vassell, Johnson and a real PF, sign an expensive backup PG and a solid backup center, and then let Primo, Walker, Wieskamp, KBD and Samanic fight to sort out the middle of the bench. But you take what you can get when it comes to PATFO.

You missed the DaQuan Jeffries from your roster choices. He was signed late last season.

[Chinook]

You missed the DaQuan Jeffries from your roster choices. He was signed late last season.

True. I was using the Capulator to check, and that doesn't have many of last year's transactions. I don't know that I expect him to be on the team in a week, but if so, he'll be competing with Wieskamp, I'd assume.

[offset formation]

The only thing Murray posted was him smiling in a photo and smiley emojis

somehow SpursTalk is equating that as “disapproval”

that’s a huge leap and it’s misinformation that’s spreading like wildfire because you literally have pages and pages of people talking about it like it’s truth.

those aren't smiling emojis

[Sugus]

3 reasons to believe in GM Brian Wright (who is totally in control of running the ship).

1. This has to light a fire under Lonnie’s ass. The dude seems anemic for too long of stretches. It’s not even an icy hot thing either it’s more an effort thing. Some games he looks like the second coming of MJ and the majority he looks lost and doesn’t give a fuck. I don’t know if we offer Lonnie another contract but if he continues his shit show of effort this coming year then we have a replacement down the line

2. You can never have enough shooting. Yeah we have another combo guard or whatever but he is a shooter. That’s his bread and butter. His form looks good, his leg/body placement seems ready at all times, and he doesn’t look like he will lack confidence in himself when it comes to launching 3s. Say what you want but we don’t have that many shooters. It would be nice to have a bench that are all threats from the 3 and can all switch and can defend (I know he’s not there yet defensively but that will be taught I hope).

3. He fits a role perfectly. As shown in Alabama, he has no problem waiting in the corner for the open look. It’s how he was used. This means he won’t complain about lack of touches and it also means that we can take our sweet ass time developing him right? Well the answer to that is kinda. Bc he already does the one thing that takes a lot of our players years to develop. Unlike DJ or KJ, we don’t have to teach him to shoot! That’s a big deal. Now we can just focus on getting him to learn the game. That’s harder for sure but he’s young enough to where his bad habits can be gotten rid of defensively and where he can absorb an offense. It’s the opposite of why I was opposed to making DJ a PG. They were chasing too many rabbits with DJ: shooting, defense, running an offense, high pick n roll, etc and that’s gonna take years and years to learn. But you can focus on 2 & 3 with him in a more natural game situation in Austin. It’s why White worked out better. He could just focus on playing the game. Primo just needs to focus on playing the game.

This pick gives me hope that we know what we are actually doing. He doesn’t align with our kids timeline but when we tank next year and get that high draft pick, those 2 guys are going to grow together. You keep the high character youth we have now that can teach them the game and the Spurs way and you do it right in a rubuild. It’s like what NO tried to do with Zion except they don’t have the locker room or culture. We do.

I read through the entire thing waiting for that "gotcha!" moment when you were gonna trash the pick :lol I'm disappointed, in a good way :tu

Good evaluation on this kid. Stuff surrounding the draft pick still seems iffy at best, but it's true that he's a blank slate prospect who already has a transferrable skill. Lord knows I'll welcome the pick with open arms if it means Dejounte might not be so set-in-stone as the franchises' PG of the next 10 years... And the angle of Spurs going for a "second young core" is really interesting. We'd all assumed our current crop of young players was "the core", but maybe PATFO, in their usual CIA ways (:lol), are looking even farther ahead, already having recognized that the championship level players aren't in the team right now.

As I said yesterday, this FA/off-season should give us much better answers in terms of how the Spurs plan to roll the next couple seasons. I'm slightly optimistic, once again.

[offset formation]

Eh, I know Brian Wright said the words "point guard" about Primo but the guy is not a point guard. He didn't play point guard at Alabama and won't play point guard in the NBA. The guy averaged 1.3 assists per 36 minutes -- the lowest of any guard prospect in the draft. That's also lower than any player on the Spurs team last season. You have to go back to Jeff Ayres to find a Spurs player who averaged that few assists per 36 minutes. Unless Jeff Errors was a point guard in disguise, Murray doesn't have anything to worry about :lol

yeah but they also said he was misused at Alabama and that his skillset wasn't exhibited. thus it’s entirely likely they choose to use him as a pick and roll pick and pop point guard.