Olajuwon v. Robinson

[conqueso]

This really isn't the appropriate place to post this, and it's definitely not worth it's own thread, but I was taking a trip down memory lane today and found this break-down of the 1995 WCF:

# Game 1: Olajuwon: 27 pts - Robinson 21 pts
# Game 2: Olajuwon: 41 pts - Robinson 32 pts
# Game 3: Olajuwon: 43 pts - Robinson 29 pts
# Game 4: Olajuwon: 20 pts - Robinson 20 pts
# Game 5: Olajuwon: 42 pts - Robinson 22 pts
# Game 6: Olajuwon: 39 pts - Robinson 19 pts

Dream: 35.3 ppg
DRob: 23.7 ppg

Wow. I was only 14 when these games were played and didn't know much about basketball, and I have just a vague memory of the pounding that DRob took at the hands of Dream, but that comparison really solidified it for me.

Said Sean Elliott: "It was the most dominating performance by a player that I was ever witness to. But I blame our marketing department. Hakeem had won the MVP award the previous year, and felt he deserved it in 1995. David won it, and it was announced right before our series started. The first game was in San Antonio, and they put together a tape with a collage of great Robinson plays. I found out later that the tape (and the naming of Robinson as MVP) spurred Olajuwon to new heights. Olajuwon was just unstoppable. But it wasn’t just David’s fault. Dennis was intent on getting every rebound, but he wouldn’t come out and guard anyone. That’s why Robert Horry killed us in that series. Dennis wouldn’t guard him! That doesn’t take anything away from Hakeem in the series. He was just awesome."

Elliot Kalb wrote: "I can’t find a more dominating performance against a league MVP on a superior team in the postseason. In the last two games, Hakeem outscored Robinson 81-41."

[SmotPoker]

So hakeem dominated david, so what... I think this has to be the third or fourth thread I've seen about this.

[whottt]

What did Amare Stoudamire average against us in the playoffs?

[smeagol]

What did Amare Stoudamire average against us in the playoffs?
Good to see you're still alive.

[Vashner]

50 is better.

[conqueso]

What did Amare Stoudamire average against us in the playoffs?


Game 1 - Stoudemire: 41 Duncan: 28
Game 2 - Stoudemire: 37 Duncan: 30
Game 3 - Stoudemire: 34 Duncan: 33
Game 4 - Stoudemire: 31 Duncan: 15
Game 5 - Stoudemire: 42 Duncan: 31

Stoudemire: 38.2 ppg
Duncan: 27.4 ppg

So I guess Duncan took a beating just like DRob did. Only difference was which team won the series.

[mavsfan1000]

The spurs are better. You might as well admit it. Olajuwon was nothing and Robinson was everything. These homers would not understand Olajuwon>Robinson.

[ChumpDumper]

Olajuwon's play was otherworldly that season.

Good for him.

[whottt]

So I guess Duncan took a beating just like DRob did. Only difference was which team won the series.


And Duncan and Olajuwon both had Robert Horry...Robert Horry who just so happened to hit the game winner in game 1...As Sean Elliott mentioned, Robert Horry killed the Spurs in that series.

Amare Stoudamire is only 22 years old...he has never won a championship, he has never won league MVP, much less post season MVP...Hakeem Olajuwon OTOH, well he was already quite accomplished in that series, more experienced than Drob...The Spurs were not a defensive team at all that season, while the Rockets were. The Spurs were most definitely a defensive team last season, while the Suns...

Plenty of differences but if you just want to look at PPG, what Amare did, and who he did it against, was more impressive.

I'll let people get back to the DRob hating...

[Obstructed_View]

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Sam Cassell
Clyde Drexler
Mario Elie
Robert Horry
Otis Thorpe
Carl Herrera

In retrospect, that's an awfully good team. It was also nice that Hakeem got to rest on the injured list toward the end of the season. He was clearly fresher than anyone he faced in the playoffs.

[The Artest Factor]

Olajuwon was worlds better than David Robinson. Don't even kid yourselves.

[exstatic]

There was a plan in place, and every player was on board except you know who. They were going to cover the shooters, and let Hakeem get whatever he could, single covered. Obviously, with Rodman's head up his patoot, the first part didn't happen, and a post season star (Horry) was born. Houston had pretty much the diametrically opposed plan: clog the middle, and make the Spurs shooters beat you. At that time, it was a good plan, and it worked. There really wasn't a good, clutch playoff 3 point shooter on the roster. Avery never could shoot, Vinnie had only a mid range shot, which was easy to double off of, and Sean was not yet The Ninja. We were in the Mavs role, and Houston was the Spurs of their day. They were a better team.

[SpursIndonesia]

I admire DRob, as much as i admire Hakeem, both are my fav players, but ChumpD's right, in that postseason, Hakeem was like a possessed man, i even dare to say that not even Jordan in his best day could stop Hakeem that yr

[IcemanCometh]

whott hates duncan

[SequSpur]

The spurs are better. You might as well admit it. Olajuwon was nothing and Robinson was everything. These homers would not understand Olajuwon>Robinson.

I've had enough of your act. Why don't you go away? Meet me at the HEB on Military and Zarzamora, I want to show you something.

[ShoogarBear]

I've had enough of your act. Why don't you go away? Meet me at the HEB on Military and Zarzamora, I want to show you something.

:lmao

[mavsfan1000]

I've had enough of your act. Why don't you go away? Meet me at the HEB on Military and Zarzamora, I want to show you something.

You can't handle the truth so you get bitter. :lol

[baseline bum]

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Sam Cassell
Clyde Drexler
Mario Elie
Robert Horry
Otis Thorpe
Carl Herrera

In retrospect, that's an awfully good team. It was also nice that Hakeem got to rest on the injured list toward the end of the season. He was clearly fresher than anyone he faced in the playoffs.

Otis Thorpe was traded for Drexler in midseason, and Vernon Maxwell was kicked off the team during their first-round series with Utah.

[ambchang]

even though this is the millionth time this topic has been posted, still would like to chip in my 2 cents.
As a diehard Robinson fan, I have to say that he was destroyed by the Rockets as a whole in that series. He was routinely double, or even tripled teamed, and given that Rodman wasn't doing anything, both offensively and defensively, I was surprised that the series actually went 6 games. The Spurs were the better team if they chose to play together, and the fact that Hakeem and Horry played out of their minds, and the Spurs still mannered to have a very competitive 6 games shows that. People kept talking about how Hakeem averaged 35 pts in the series with Robinson singling him throughout the series, yet they fail mention that Hakeem managed to average 33 pts in the next series with Shaq and Grant doubling him.

[galvatron3000]

even though this is the millionth time this topic has been posted, still would like to chip in my 2 cents.
As a diehard Robinson fan, I have to say that he was destroyed by the Rockets as a whole in that series. He was routinely double, or even tripled teamed, and given that Rodman wasn't doing anything, both offensively and defensively, I was surprised that the series actually went 6 games. The Spurs were the better team if they chose to play together, and the fact that Hakeem and Horry played out of their minds, and the Spurs still mannered to have a very competitive 6 games shows that. People kept talking about how Hakeem averaged 35 pts in the series with Robinson singling him throughout the series, yet they fail mention that Hakeem managed to average 33 pts in the next series with Shaq and Grant doubling him.


I agree, not to take anything away from Hakeem but David score over 20 on double teams while Hakeem had a chance to go one on one offensively against DRob, DRob never received help and was a capable center on offense himself even though he never had the arsenal of offensive weapons as Hakeem he could be formiable before the back injury.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Exstatic, nice post as usual.

I have to chip in on this too.

I am a HUGE fan of David - hell, I dropped my life and came to SA in 2003 to see him play before he retired. However, I think Hakeem was a better player overall, especially in the mid-90s. Hakeem had the greatest low post game ever seen (some might argue for Kareem or McHale, or a bunch of others, but IMHO Hakeem was the man), and was at least David's equal on all other fronts. I think Hakeem was just a little better than DRob. Having said that, David OWNED every other centre in the league, including Shaq, until his back went.

However, Hakeem also had better teams to play with! David had Avery, Sean, a disruptive Rodman, Big Dawg Carr, and that was about it. Hakeem had well constructed teams of role players surrounding him, especially in 94-5, and coaching continuity which David never had.

Glad David got his rings in 1999 and 2003. He definitely finished off his career better than Hakeem, even through the injuries, and those 16 (17?) rebounds in game 6 against the Nets was a fitting end.

[alamo50]

D-Rob: 13 points, 17 rebounds, 2 blocks and 1 assist
TD: 21 points, 20 rebounds, 8 blocks and 10 assists

Those numbers are engraved in my mind.

And I agree with Ruff that Hakeem has the upside over David.
2 of the greatest to ever play the game.

[Rummpd]

I was at a regular season game in Houston when David in 95 dropped 53 on Hakeem, believed that helped also fuel Hakeems great playoff series.

That being said I do believe that overall David was as within a fraction of being as good as Hakeem, because he normally was at least as good as a defender and quicker.

I think the difference was that at least early in his career, Hakeem just wanted it more than David, but athletically David could do as much or more than Hakeem.

Too bad they are not still battling at each other!

[Brutalis]

We had RODMAN.

Who didn't care to play hard.

DRob was doubled and trip teamed every time he touched it.

Houston had a better team, more rounded out anyways.

Despite the crap DRob gets. Why dont YOU put up those numbers being teamed like that, against Hakeem.

Shaq did what? Ha.

[Sense]

Hakeem Olajuwon
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Sam Cassell
Clyde Drexler
Mario Elie
Robert Horry
Otis Thorpe
Carl Herrera

In retrospect, that's an awfully good team. It was also nice that Hakeem got to rest on the injured list toward the end of the season. He was clearly fresher than anyone he faced in the playoffs.

I just want to say....


I fuckin love your sig.

:smokin

[conqueso]

We had RODMAN.

Who didn't care to play hard.

DRob was doubled and trip teamed every time he touched it.

Houston had a better team, more rounded out anyways.

Despite the crap DRob gets. Why dont YOU put up those numbers being teamed like that, against Hakeem.

Shaq did what? Ha.

Hakeem vs Shaquille O’Neal: 1995 NBA Finals
# Game 1: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 26 pts
# Game 2: Olajuwon: 34 pts - O’Neal 33 pts
# Game 3: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 28 pts
# Game 4: Olajuwon: 35 pts - O’Neal 25 pts

Dream: 32.8 ppg
Shaq: 28.0 ppg

At least as far as points go, Shaq did better against Dream than DRob did...against the same double and triple teams. True, his ass got swept, but the stats don't lie.

I'm not doggin on Robinson...the epic battle between me and Obstructed_view in the Robinson v. Duncan thread shows how much I revere him as a player. And I know this shit has been posted over and over and over again. But it didn't really sink in how bad DRob got owned by Dream until I found that game-by-game breakdown that I originally posted.

I mean...shit...poor David. :cry

[Vashner]

Ok .. enough fantasy. .this is not rockets forum.

50 Wins.. !!!

David was a real Naval Officer too so dream was not = David wins.

BYE!!

[j-6]

A lot of people forget that Hakeem was the MVP in the 93-94 season, the year before David got his award. In the 94-95 season, the defending champ Rockets got trounced by injuries in the regular season and finished in third place in the Midwest well behind both SA and Utah.

[bigzak25]

I've had enough of your act. Why don't you go away? Meet me at the HEB on Military and Zarzamora, I want to show you something.


beware sequ in a trenchcoat...he'll show you his little friend...:lmao


of course what sequ calls a trenchcoat, we all know simply as a....well...as a coat.









:lol

[Brutalis]

Hakeem vs Shaquille O’Neal: 1995 NBA Finals
# Game 1: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 26 pts
# Game 2: Olajuwon: 34 pts - O’Neal 33 pts
# Game 3: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 28 pts
# Game 4: Olajuwon: 35 pts - O’Neal 25 pts

Dream: 32.8 ppg
Shaq: 28.0 ppg

At least as far as points go, Shaq did better against Dream than DRob did...against the same double and triple teams. True, his ass got swept, but the stats don't lie.

I'm not doggin on Robinson...the epic battle between me and Obstructed_view in the Robinson v. Duncan thread shows how much I revere him as a player. And I know this shit has been posted over and over and over again. But it didn't really sink in how bad DRob got owned by Dream until I found that game-by-game breakdown that I originally posted.

I mean...shit...poor David. :cry


Well I am misleading. I meant how did Shaq and his team do. Which was not what we did at least.

[exstatic]

Shaq did better against Dream than DRob did...against the same double and triple teams.

Actually, with Dennis Scott, Penny Hardaway (with knees), and Nick Anderson, I guarantee you that Houston did not play the same defense that they did against SA. They would have gone down under a rain of 3 pointers. Shaq was a terrible passer at the time, so all they would have had to do was wait for him to put the ball on the floor, and then run one weakside defender at him, and he would give up the rock to someone who was pretty well covered, shooting-wise.

[2pac]

Some other notes about the series.

Bob Hill was outcoached more than any coach in any sport was outcoached before or ever will again in a playoff series.

Hill made DRob guard Hakeem one on one - forcing Rob to use an incredible amount of energy on both sides of the court. Hakeem was only a secondary defender - allowing him much needed rest as Chucky Brown and Pete Chilcutt hacked the hell outta DRob. Hakeem guarding Rodman is a joke. If Bob Hill was at all smart, Rodman would have guarded Hakeem.

The Spurs secondary players were serverely overmatched. Clyde > Sean, Kenny Smith/Cassell > Avery. Horry > Carr, Elie > Vinny of the Black

[Despot]

D-rob knows more about computers than Hakeem

[alamo50]

David is a born again Christian.

;)

[ambchang]

David is a better musician.

[conqueso]

Bob Hill was outcoached more than any coach in any sport was outcoached before or ever will again in a playoff series.

Amen.


Hill made DRob guard Hakeem one on one - forcing Rob to use an incredible amount of energy on both sides of the court. Hakeem was only a secondary defender - allowing him much needed rest as Chucky Brown and Pete Chilcutt hacked the hell outta DRob. Hakeem guarding Rodman is a joke. If Bob Hill was at all smart, Rodman would have guarded Hakeem.

Not to take anything away from Worm, who was an amazing defender, but DRob on Hakeem was a better choice. Rodman could do a lot of defense, and he frustrated the hell out of Malone two years in a row in the Finals, but Hakeem would have eaten that piece of shit Rodman for breakfast. Hakeem would have shaked and shot 15 foot jumpers over Worm all night, and when he took it to the hole he would have still dominated DRob coming over on help side defense with beautiful little pump fakes and lay-ins.

I think the best consolation that a Spurs fan can take from this Hakeem v. David argument is that DRob didn't spend his Golden Years wasting away on the Raptors bench after being thrown to the curb by the only team he had ever known...he went out with a dominating performance, winning a motherfucking Championship on his home floor. The final images of Robinson's career show him standing at center court, raising up the Larry O'Brien trophy, a whole city cheering for him and everything his had meant to us. Pundits will forever call Hakeem the better center, but DRob will always have the better memories. David Robinson retired an NBA Champion...and I bet he'd rather have it that way.

Final Games:

Dream 5/2/02 85-82 Loss to Pistons in EC first round:
15 min, 3-5, 8 pts., 4 reb., 0 assists, 0 blocks

Robinson 6/16/03 88-77 Win over Nets in NBA Finals:
31 min, 6-8, 13 pts., 17 reb., 1 assists, 2 blocks

[Despot]

Final Games:

Dream 5/2/02 85-82 Loss to Pistons in EC first round:
15 min, 3-5, 8 pts., 4 reb., 0 assists, 0 blocks

Robinson 6/16/03 88-77 Win over Nets in NBA Finals:
31 min, 6-8, 13 pts., 17 reb., 1 assists, 2 blocks

Not only that, I am not very familiar with Hakeem's carrer, but it has always seemed to me that D-rob sustained better play over a longer period of time, I realize Hakeem had better stats, but that was over an 18 year career. And David did not have the teammates that hakeem had at the time. I would take David again in a heartbeat, I don't feel that winning the championship's satified his personal goals as much as did winning them for the community and fans. I can't think of anyone else to say that about other than maybe Manu winning all his titles for Argentina.

[Vashner]

http://www.kskssports.com/ksks_sports/sports_illustrated/1980s/images/si8689.jpeg

[Mr. Defense]

That 95 series was painful.

I imagine watching a one on one with TD and Rasho would be reminiscent.

But despite the dreams dominance, the Spurs were able to TAKE back homecourt winning the 2 road games in houston...

and that's when the 3pt line was brought in.

They had horry, ellie, cassell, the dream, and who else? remind me please...

with those outside shooters, akeems inside dominance, and a short 3 pt shot?

sheyitt..they were unstoppable.

who did we have?

aj, vinnie, and sean? with drob and rodman?

rodman who lusted after boards so much he didn't want to guard his man on the wings?

i went to that game 5 heartbreaker at the dome...it sucked.

but oh well...Drob has Two Titles just like akeem does...and David Retired a Champion.

Not even Jordan can say that. :elephant

[2pac]

Amen.



Not to take anything away from Worm, who was an amazing defender, but DRob on Hakeem was a better choice. Rodman could do a lot of defense, and he frustrated the hell out of Malone two years in a row in the Finals, but Hakeem would have eaten that piece of shit Rodman for breakfast. Hakeem would have shaked and shot 15 foot jumpers over Worm all night, and when he took it to the hole he would have still dominated DRob coming over on help side defense with beautiful little pump fakes and lay-ins.

I think the best consolation that a Spurs fan can take from this Hakeem v. David argument is that DRob didn't spend his Golden Years wasting away on the Raptors bench after being thrown to the curb by the only team he had ever known...he went out with a dominating performance, winning a motherfucking Championship on his home floor. The final images of Robinson's career show him standing at center court, raising up the Larry O'Brien trophy, a whole city cheering for him and everything his had meant to us. Pundits will forever call Hakeem the better center, but DRob will always have the better memories. David Robinson retired an NBA Champion...and I bet he'd rather have it that way.

Final Games:

Dream 5/2/02 85-82 Loss to Pistons in EC first round:
15 min, 3-5, 8 pts., 4 reb., 0 assists, 0 blocks

Robinson 6/16/03 88-77 Win over Nets in NBA Finals:
31 min, 6-8, 13 pts., 17 reb., 1 assists, 2 blocks

Its not about whether Rodman or Robinson is a better defender, but rather what is better for the team in total.

Rodman was not as good defensively as Robinson, but Robinson would be amazing coming in for help, and that would be MUCH easier on him as his back was sore all series. With Rodman focusing on that instead of losing Chucky Brown and Robert Horry in the wings, Robinson would have more energy on offense as well as would probably create more turnovers by being the help defense.

[Brutalis]

David is a born again Christian.

;)
OMG BURNNNNED

[Bloodline666]

That 95 series was painful.

I imagine watching a one on one with TD and Rasho would be reminiscent.

But despite the dreams dominance, the Spurs were able to TAKE back homecourt winning the 2 road games in houston...

and that's when the 3pt line was brought in.

They had horry, ellie, cassell, the dream, and who else? remind me please...

with those outside shooters, akeems inside dominance, and a short 3 pt shot?

sheyitt..they were unstoppable.

who did we have?

aj, vinnie, and sean? with drob and rodman?

rodman who lusted after boards so much he didn't want to guard his man on the wings?

i went to that game 5 heartbreaker at the dome...it sucked.

but oh well...Drob has Two Titles just like akeem does...and David Retired a Champion.

Not even Jordan can say that. :elephant
Yeah...but Jordan retired once with a championship, retired AGAIN with a championship, but the third retirement...well, third time wasn't a charm...

If only he had STAYED retired the first or second time around...

[conqueso]

Its not about whether Rodman or Robinson is a better defender, but rather what is better for the team in total.

Rodman was not as good defensively as Robinson, but Robinson would be amazing coming in for help, and that would be MUCH easier on him as his back was sore all series. With Rodman focusing on that instead of losing Chucky Brown and Robert Horry in the wings, Robinson would have more energy on offense as well as would probably create more turnovers by being the help defense.

DRob couldn't have chased Chucky and Bob on the perimeter any better than Rodman could have. And Rodman gave up four or five inches on Olajuwon and was not a very good shot blocker, especially one-on-one, so Robinson's help-side D would have been moot...Dream would have abused Rodman from mid-range, easily shooting over him or driving past him and finding an open Robert Horry for the dunk or the three. If Dream could put up way over 30 per game against one of the best post defenders ever, he would have annihilated Rodman, even if the team defense might have been a little better. I mean, David looked like a chump in that series, but Dream would have put up a nickel on Rodman every night.

Bob Hill's problem was not that he read the defensive assignments wrong...it was that he didn't make good substitutions, didn't have control over some of his players, didn't give two shits about preaching the virtues of playing defense one-through-five, and didn't try to find other options when Robinson had a mouthful of Dream dick. He also didn't emotionally inspire his players. The only guy who even showed up to play in game 6 was Doc fucking Rivers (similar to Devin Brown in Game 6 against the Lakers in '04). I can't believe that I actually got mad at Pop when he fired that dipshit. Pop is 1 million times better than Bob Hill will ever be, and he's the second-biggest reason there are three championship banners hanging in the SBC center right now.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

13 and 17 with 2 blks, thanks for reminding me alamo50! ;)

And that Duncan stat line, almost quadruple in the most important game of the season, well that's the test of a true champion, and TD keeps coming through when he needs to. Did the same this year in the 3rd quarter of game 7 - man, watching him fight through the Wallaces, getting hacked, missing 2fters, but finally getting it rolling, hitting some FTs, then breaking free and banking a couple in a row from the left wing... shivers, good shivers! And then Manu with that big dunk to start the 4th... sorry, I digress.

Olajuwon definitely had better players around him all through the 90s.

[bobbyjoe]

I agree, not to take anything away from Hakeem but David score over 20 on double teams while Hakeem had a chance to go one on one offensively against DRob, DRob never received help and was a capable center on offense himself even though he never had the arsenal of offensive weapons as Hakeem he could be formiable before the back injury.

That's not true. Revisionist really. Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists per game that year in that series; this is a guy who didnt even average 3.0 assists over his career. That tells you objectively that he was double teamed quite a bit in the series. The way Hakeem was playing those yrs, every team in the league doubled him as they do with Duncan, Robinson, O'Neal, or all great big men.

How do you think guys like Robert Horry, Kenny Smith, Mario Elie, and Sam Cassell were hurting the Spurs in that series so much without the attention Hakeem was getting? Those aren't guys who are known (except for Sam and to a limited degree back then) as guys who can create their own shots.

One of the major differences in Hakeem's game and DRob's is that even when you double Hakeem, he can still get off his patented turnaround because he's turning away from the double and fading away and is 7 foot. Robinson didn't have a shot like that; hence he was less successful and more easily taken out of games.

[Vashner]

Don't forget the NBA's community service award is called the "David Robinson" award...

[Bloodline666]

Don't forget the NBA's community service award is called the "David Robinson" award...
Shouldn't we like, do a website on who gets that award, with updates as they happen? I mean, after all, it is an award named after the second face of our favorite franchise.