Game Thread: Spurs at Suns - Dec 6, 2021 - 8:00pm CT

[slick'81]

Brick

[slick'81]

3 point game

[slick'81]

Go up strong dejounte tf

[Barfunk]

Well they tried. Damn.

[Trill Clinton]

CP3 is too good, man

[emanueldavidginobili]

CP3 is so good man fuck

[Uriel]

Suns are a really good basketball team.

[mexicanjunior]

Murray is a cluster fuck in the open court.

[slick'81]

Mc buckets

[Arcadian]

I'm not convinced the ball went off Murray. How do you not review that?

[heyheymymy]

Didnt Murray bobble one in the Ws game too

[Trill Clinton]

great play

[slick'81]

Gg

[itzsoweezee]

It's always going to be tough to win with a closing lineup including Keldon. Suns are just packing the paint

[Dejounte]

White’s crying annoys the fuck out of me. Yes, you fucked up a defensive assignment. Stop crying every fucking time. Damn

[MultiTroll]

McDermott on Clitter Paul.
Brilliant D strategy Popped.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Watching Bryn bitch and moan every time something goes wrong is killing me.

[Dex]

That's game. Bad switch by Murray there, you gotta take on Paul there

[offset formation]

200 straight chip shots missed by Pertle

This is why I'll never consider him a starter. He just doesn't have that, "I'm gonna shove this shit in your grill" attitude.

Sean talks about it almost nightly and evidently the coaches beg him to be more aggressive around the rim. Instead he just plays like a 7'0" puss. Unacceptable shit from your starting center, iyam.

[heyheymymy]

Man I hate Paul but he fits so good on this suns team

[Barfunk]

Why THE FUCK DO THEY NOT EVER FOUL AUTOMATICALLY

[MultiTroll]

Down 6 with 14 seconds we shoot a fucking 2 pointer?
:pctoss

[Barfunk]

This is why I'll never consider him a starter. He just doesn't have that, "I'm gonna shove this shit in your grill" attitude.

Sean talks about it almost nightly and evidently the coaches beg him to be more aggressive around the rim. Instead he just plays like a 7'0" puss. Unacceptable shit from your starting center, iyam.

Yupp, soft shit he was throwing up there.

[SpurPadre]

Down 6 with 14 seconds we shoot a fucking 2 pointer?
:pctoss

Yeah, I can't watch the game and looking at Gamecast. WTF was up with that other than White just trying to pad his stats?

[emanueldavidginobili]

Can't wait for Primo to get some chemistry with this team, he looked lost for the most part but still made an impact for sure. 5 points 2 boards 3 steals and 4 blocks

[Seventyniner]

A valiant effort. :bobo

[daslicer]

Paul was clutch but Ayton was also huge. He's a great rim protector and alters a lot of drives to the hole.

[Degoat]

Disappointing loss but the team is competing hard still, honestly I thought everyone played pretty poorly and we were right there with them. Onto the next one, spurs gotta figure out the backup situation with Jakob

[BillMc]

We foought the good fight, I guess.

[Leetonidas]

Morale victory game

[Dex]

I'll eat my crow on Primo, he came in and provided a spark.

At this point, give all of Eubanks minutes to Young or Jock and let Drew mop the floors or carry the bags or something. Dude looked lost out there tonight.

This game falls on White. 4/12 shooting (1/8 from three) and a -17. Spurs had momentum in the 4th until Pop put him back on the floor.

[BillMc]

Can't wait for Primo to get some chemistry with this team, he looked lost for the most part but still made an impact for sure. 5 points 2 boards 3 steals and 4 blocks

This. Give him time, Kid's going to be good.

[boutons_deux]

Man I hate Paul but he fits so good on this suns team

remember Paul hit the buzzer beater that eliminated the Spurs in game 7

[Uriel]

Another game, another moral victory.

[MultiTroll]

Yeah, I can't watch the game and looking at Gamecast. WTF was up with that other than White just trying to pad his stats?
Too boot, they dribbled and passed the ball and didn't get the gimme hoop until clock was at 6 seconds.

[SpurPadre]

Man this team plays hard. Getting excited for Primo too.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Is Jock in the dog house or something, it's bizarre at this point.

[boutons_deux]

Man this team plays hard. Getting excited for Primo too.

3 steals 4 blocks

[PhantomDashCam]

That McDermott play for 3 was nice. He needs more plays run for him like that.
I am buoyed by the improvements in the endgame during the past 5 games.
They’re taking it to the competition and not wilting.

Kudos to Primo and Forbes for keeping us in it. :tu

[SpurPadre]

Too boot, they dribbled and passed the ball and didn't get the gimme hoop until clock was at 6 seconds.

They have no killer instinct. No LDN type players in the clutch. But those type players aren't easy to find and it builds over time. On the plus side, we have some exciting players, they compete and play hard. It's gonna be a long journey back to the top but I like alot of these guys we have.

[SpurPadre]

3 steals 4 blocks

More importantly, those numbers are keys to Pop's heart and will keep getting him minutes.

[ducks]

Chris Paul is a fag just like..0

[Dejounte]

Primo plays like Danny Green on defense. Disciplined and knows when to jump for a block. Great anticipation skills. Yes, he sometimes lets his man drive past him but he’s usually not far behind.

[boutons_deux]

The second quarter killed the Spurs

[Seventyniner]

Primo plays like Danny Green on defense. Disciplined and knows when to jump for a block. Great anticipation skills. Yes, he sometimes lets his man drive past him but he’s usually not far behind.

If Primo is even Danny Green Lite on defense, anything beyond above average three-point shooting will be gravy. And he has shown that he has the potential for much more than that.

[objective]

Is Jock in the dog house or something, it's bizarre at this point.

Wouldn't be fair to Eubanks for never missing a day of work

[spurraider21]

still think McDermott passes up too many 3's. he can clearly get his shots off really quick. feels like a lot of times he has that crease but hesitates. he should be taking 8+ per game imo. just launch them.

[paperboy77]

remember Paul hit the buzzer beater that eliminated the Spurs in game 7

Unfortunately yes. Fuck Chris Paul!

[spurraider21]

Primo plays like Danny Green on defense. Disciplined and knows when to jump for a block. Great anticipation skills. Yes, he sometimes lets his man drive past him but he’s usually not far behind. Chinook ElNono

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Not true after going 5of 6 in the first q they were always going to guard in 2nd..Reckon there were 2 open thees and the rest were guarded. I remember Primo and Trey were the open ones. I could be wrong but most had hand in face.

Terrible start to the 2nd half.

white was building a ... like i said a building

[tbdog]

McDermott on Clitter Paul.
Brilliant D strategy Popped.

Suns got the switch. Crowder was holding Murray to force the switch. Thats why Mcdermott yelled at the ref when CP3 got the foul call.

Just learn to watch the game with little more detail.

[ducks]

Another game, another moral victory.

Fuck it

[ElNono]

Chinook ElNono

:lol

[Dejounte]

I like my players confident and never sulking. Can’t wait for the day either Primo or Vassell take a spot in the SL.

[Dex]

Another game, another moral victory.

All things considered, not the worst place to be. It's not like this team is going to win the championship or anything this year.

At least we are showing that we can hang with the best teams despite all the warts on this roster. Every close loss gets us closer to a better draft pick while still keeping the team interested in competing.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1468070182782480386

[BillMc]

I like what Primo shows. Hope he stays with the big club.

[heyheymymy]

remember Paul hit the buzzer beater that eliminated the Spurs in game 7

That series took a year off my life

[BillMc]

1468070182782480386

And yet Primo is more mature and professional than Dwight ever was already.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1468076023933812737

[stephen jackson]

Tre Jones sucks

[heyheymymy]

Agree with how much you see white Walker and forbes visibly upset and if i can see from my couch you gotta know your opponent is feeding off it

[Dejounte]

Tre Jones sucks

He was also an “unsung villain” in this game. His absolute worst game yet. A way off 3. Many blocked shots. Looked like pure trash.

[wildbill2u]

Anyone know where we can find the box score stat sheet??? I'm tired of waiting for someone to post one.

[playbonner15]

They're humans, it's allowed to show emotion, disappointment even

[emanueldavidginobili]

Anyone know where we can find the box score stat sheet??? I'm tired of waiting for someone to post one.
NBA.com ESPN.com Yahoo.com Google.com

[Jordan Jackson]

Spurs should be listening to offers for Walker and white - if they aren’t already.

Pop is always preaching “strong faces”. I know what I see and it’s not good. Besides that, they are wasting their time with Walker. Zero BBIQ.

With White they have better offensive/defensive options with Primo and Vassell.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Also Josh has an excuse for being lost here and there, Lonnie is just flat out incompetent when it comes to basketball smh.

[ismael-robert]

Drew>young

[Chomag]

Primo with the 4 blocks, clearly he's not over himself yet

[Dejounte]

Drew>young

They both suck and I pity the team who thinks Young will move the needle for their championship aspirations.

[John B]

It would be nice to win this at Suns, but I will not sulk on this. If they play like this every night, they should be at .500. If they play like the other night at GSW, they’d be contenders or top 4 in the West. This Spurs need to play perfect every night, without any real tier one player to carry them, with 3’s falling at about 38% and 36 or more attempts, and about 6 players in double digits. It’s doable but difficult to sustain especially with a young team. But I think they’ll get there.

[John B]

They both suck and I pity the team who thinks Young will move the needle for their championship aspirations.

I think Young is playing half-ass game sulking with his low minutes. Drew is just Drew, will give you high motor with 6-8 minutes, but couldn’t be more or he’ll fizzle

[John B]

Spurs should be listening to offers for Walker and white - if they aren’t already.

Pop is always preaching “strong faces”. I know what I see and it’s not good. Besides that, they are wasting their time with Walker. Zero BBIQ.

With White they have better offensive/defensive options with Primo and Vassell.

I think Lonnie will get there. He’s a streaky scorer and just needs to learn to be consistent. It takes longer for him to get the game come slower, but when it does, he will be a special player I think.

[Dejounte]

It would be nice to win this at Suns, but I will not sulk on this. If they play like this every night, they should be at .500. If they play like the other night at GSW, they’d be contenders or top 4 in the West. This Spurs need to play perfect every night, without any real tier one player to carry them, with 3’s falling at about 38% and 36 or more attempts, and about 6 players in double digits. It’s doable but difficult to sustain especially with a young team. But I think they’ll get there.

I don’t get why you think they need to play “perfect” every night. Tonight’s game was shitty as can be and they were in it til the end. Nobody played close to perfect.

[Dejounte]

This was a “Chris Paul” type game tonight for Dejounte Murray. He played extremely patient and the amount of times he looked for his own shot were far fewer than usual. Felt like he was in cruise control but 100% in control at the same time, if that makes sense. IMO, this was the first of its kind and really, it was the perfect game for someone else to step up individually. Problem is, no one else took the reins.

Also, like I mentioned earlier, he was double teamed on multiple occasions, which was interesting.

[John B]

I don’t get why you think they need to play “perfect” every night. Tonight’s game was shitty as can be and they were in it til the end. Nobody played close to perfect.

Obviously Booker was out. But I said that because they don’t have a Tier 1 player to carry them every game. Their passes need to be crisp, assists at close to 30 every night, 3pt over 38%, etc. Or they get blown out. And it’s hard to be consistent with a very young team. With “the beautiful game,” they also didn’t have a tier 1 player anymore, but a budding star, the big 3 who were passed their prime, plus Diaw, Tiago, Mills. But they were able to play consistent at high level, perfect, because obviously experience.

Basically just repetition to play close to perfect every night. Spurs mantra, keep pounding the rock!

[spurraider21]

Tre’s game looks nice but until he becomes a 3pt threat he’s liable to have these stinkers when nobody respects his shot

[R. DeMurre]

Obviously Booker was out. But I said that because they don’t have a Tier 1 player to carry them every game. Their passes need to be crisp, assists at close to 30 every night, 3pt over 38%, etc. Or they get blown out. And it’s hard to be consistent with a very young team. With “the beautiful game,” they also didn’t have a tier 1 player anymore, but a budding star, the big 3 who were passed their prime, plus Diaw, Tiago, Mills. But they were able to play consistent at high level, perfect, because obviously experience.

Basically just repetition to play close to perfect every night. Spurs mantra, keep pounding the rock!

Kawhi didn't have the reputation as a tier 1 player yet, but he had the effectiveness of one. He had the best BPM, VORP, & WS on the Spurs, the highest ORtg and the lowest DRtg (tied with Timmy) that year. His numbers were also better than every player on the Heat not named Lebron. He was a budding star in name & reputation only. In terms of real results on the court, he was already a true star.

[John B]

Kawhi didn't have the reputation as a tier 1 player yet, but he had the effectiveness of one. He had the best BPM, VORP, & WS on the Spurs, the highest ORtg and the lowest DRtg (tied with Timmy) that year. His numbers were also better than every player on the Heat not named Lebron. He was a budding star in name & reputation only. In terms of real results on the court, he was already a true star.

And I’m hoping that DJM is becoming to be that “budding star,” and hopefully can transcend his game to the next level. But back to my point, there would be nights that this team will be blown out, hopefully occurring less and less, as they learn to trust the system and each player transcends his game.

It’s way different from the heavy iso we’ve watched the last few years with Aldridge and Demar. I wouldn’t sulk at tonight’s loss because it’s against a high caliber led by CP3. But I think if they play like this, and even better like against the GSW and 3 previous games, which they are capable, I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended with top 7 or better.

[spurraider21]

:lol
Good times. Beautiful game, nephew was still with the Jedi, etc

[MannyIsGod]

No wonder Thad thinks that his situation is "not ideal"

Imagine being stuck in an NBA rotation behind Drew Eubanks.

Imagine being given the backup spot and forgetting how to play. Thad was fucking atrocious tonight and the previous game.

[MannyIsGod]

This is why I'll never consider him a starter. He just doesn't have that, "I'm gonna shove this shit in your grill" attitude.

Sean talks about it almost nightly and evidently the coaches beg him to be more aggressive around the rim. Instead he just plays like a 7'0" puss. Unacceptable shit from your starting center, iyam.

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

[MannyIsGod]

Tre’s game looks nice but until he becomes a 3pt threat he’s liable to have these stinkers when nobody respects his shot

Tre does a lot of things really nice but After seeing more of him this season I 100% think that his ceiling is extremely low without a good outside shot. Its amazing how many guards the Spurs have who can't fucking shoot well.

[tbdog]

Tre does a lot of things really nice but After seeing more of him this season I 100% think that his ceiling is extremely low without a good outside shot. Its amazing how many guards the Spurs have who can't fucking shoot well.

There are heaps of nba players that are in the 'if only they could shoot' pile. Lots still have successfully nba careers.

[Dejounte]

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

The problem is people’s memory span lasts up to only one game. Shit, sometimes even only one play. That play gets burned in their mind and that’s all they think about. Not any of the good games before it.

[RC_Drunkford]

​
Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

:lmao :lmao :lmao Poeltl is playing well, but come on. All-star level? Pump the breaks

[KingKev]

Tough loss but this is the goldilocks scenario. We are competitive, young guys are getting burn and we are getting a good look at who to keep and who to move all while watching DJ emerge into an All NBA point guard! Add a top lottery pick (hopefully a 4 who can score) and we are back in the playoff hunt.

[TDomination]

I missed most of the game but followed the score, man dejounte with 14 assist that’s awesome.

2 things I’m proud of
1) kept game competitive
2) composure. even though they lost lead and even went down double digits, they came all the way back to tie the game on the road once again.

Interesting to see Young only get 7 minutes this time. He didn’t play in the 2nd half it seems. Was he terrible in the first half?

[slick'81]

I missed most of the game but followed the score, man dejounte with 14 assist that’s awesome.

2 things I’m proud of
1) kept game competitive
2) composure. even though they lost lead and even went down double digits, they came all the way back to tie the game on the road once again.

Interesting to see Young only get 7 minutes this time. He didn’t play in the 2nd half it seems. Was he terrible in the first half?


thad sucked balls

[EasyMoney]

I missed most of the game but followed the score, man dejounte with 14 assist that’s awesome.

2 things I’m proud of
1) kept game competitive
2) composure. even though they lost lead and even went down double digits, they came all the way back to tie the game on the road once again.

Interesting to see Young only get 7 minutes this time. He didn’t play in the 2nd half it seems. Was he terrible in the first half?


he wasnt very good. his match up was javale mcgee who has like 3 or 4 inches on him. he had 10 pts in 4 minutes because thad could not out rebound him

[offset formation]

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

Haha. Dude is averaging 12 and 9. All Star level???

And you say my take was dumb? Javale McGee comes off the bench and dominated him (and Thad).

37 year old LaMarcus Aldridge has a higher PER, 2 points higher actually. His PER actually has him at 23rd amongst NBA centers. Lmao.

How many centers do you think go to the All-Star game each year?

Bad take much? I pity your idiocy.

[LeBowen]

While Jakob is probably our most important player because we don't have another useful big, he's definitely not an all-star, not even close.

Limited player, but elite at his role. One of the better defensive Cs in the league on a bargain deal. Made some big improvements on offense, too. Has to improve his FTs, though. As long as he's not close to 65% on FTs, he can't have a bigger role on offense.

[Dex]

Imagine being given the backup spot and forgetting how to play. Thad was fucking atrocious tonight and the previous game.

You're not wrong, but then Eubanks somehow came in and managed to play worse.

We really gotta figure out the backup big situation. Maybe once Vassell gets healthy we just go small and stick him at the 5 :lol

[BatManu20]

1468070182782480386

[offset formation]

The problem is people’s memory span lasts up to only one game. Shit, sometimes even only one play. That play gets burned in their mind and that’s all they think about. Not any of the good games before it.

He's had good games. That's not the point.

He doesn't have much more than an ounce of dog in him.

Anyone remember Timmy shoving down a dunk onsomeone when he was frustrated or wanting to lift his team up? LMA would routinely go in and shove it down. And he was on the slope down in athleticism. This dude is like 24 or 25 and can't be coached into going inand making a statement power move. I get that his game is more finesse. So was Timmy's. But he would stuff it too.

Dude is 7'0". I'm sure he can almost touch the rim standing up. He only has to jump like a footin the air to dunk. 18" to power jam. When he has the option of one power dribble to a stuff and a pansy ass drop shot, he fails to the weak option EVERY DAMN TIME.

Sean has literally been begging him, almost shaming him to go up strong at least occasionally. For years now. Make a statement. Show some dog.

He practically never does.

That's why he shouldn't be the starting center for a team full of dogs. We need a big dog at center not a dude that does pop-a-shot. That's why people were initially intrigued by Eubanks until his skillset elsewhere limited him...

[poopbox]

While Poeltl is a terrific defender his lack of offense hurts our offense as much as his defense helps our defense. He is a complete non threat to do anything but flip up that stupid little shot of his and no one cares about that nor defends it. On any pick and roll with him the big just retreats all the way to the rim and doesn't care what Poeltl does, making it much harder for anyone to finish since there is always a big under the rim. I don't even know what his jumpshot form looks like since he never attempts one. His lack of shooting constricts the floor for everyone else. He isn't even a lob threat since he is determined to play like an unathletic stiff on offense. He is a backup center playing a starters role. Ideally we would get somebody with a semblance of offense to start and Poeltl could come off the bench or be a situational player depending on the match up. The very first 3 that Collins makes will make him as valuable on offense as Poeltl is on defense.

[Dex]

He's had good games. That's not the point.

He doesn't have much more than an ounce of dog in him.

Anyone remember Timmy shoving down a dunk onsomeone when he was frustrated or wanting to lift his team up? LMA would routinely go in and shove it down. And he was on the slope down in athleticism. This dude is like 24 or 25 and can't be coached into going inand making a statement power move. I get that his game is more finesse. So was Timmy's. But he would stuff it too.

Dude is 7'0". I'm sure he can almost touch the rim standing up. He only has to jump like a footin the air to dunk. 18" to power jam. When he has the option of one power dribble to a stuff and a pansy ass drop shot, he fails to the weak option EVERY DAMN TIME.

Sean has literally been begging him, almost shaming him to go up strong at least occasionally. For years now. Make a statement. Show some dog.

He practically never does.

That's why he shouldn't be the starting center for a team full of dogs. We need a big dog at center not a dude that does pop-a-shot. That's why people were initially intrigued by Eubanks until his skillset elsewhere limited him...

Jak's problem is even when he jams it, it's a finesse jam. He needs a full head of steam and a clear lane to rise up. He's just not the kind of guy who is going to bully a defender, back him down, and dunk over him. Never has been, and probably never will be.

He is still a valuable asset for his defense, picks and rolls, etc....and deserves to be the starter unless someone more talented comes along, but you can't just expect an apple to turn into an orange no matter how much Sean bitches at him.

[rjv]

Tre’s game looks nice but until he becomes a 3pt threat he’s liable to have these stinkers when nobody respects his shot

absolutely; tre's future hinges upon developing a consistent outside shot. everything else is there.

[Dex]

absolutely; tre's future hinges upon developing a consistent outside shot. everything else is there.

Well....a few extra inches of height would be nice but that's just wishful thinking.

[John B]

Poeltl has made plenty of strides this year and possibly the most important Spur right now, but only because we don’t have anybody else better? But an all-star, he’s not. I’m probably one of his bigger critics, but he also got plenty of praises from me this season. I don’t even mind the dunks anymore, but for Pete’s sake, it’s a lob city out there, and I mean for the opposing bigs. I agree Poeltl doesn’t have enough dog in him, and he occasionally needs to get his behind lit. And I agree, that’s the reason why many are intrigued with Drew because he doesn’t have a fraction of Poeltl’s skills but he has twice the motor.

[John B]

Well....a few extra inches of height would be nice but that's just wishful thinking.

Tre is a 42nd pick in his 2nd year. Give the guy a break. But he has the best PG skills that we have, including Derrick imo. And he’s not afraid to attack the rim and get fouled either. He’s a very good lockdown defender I don’t doubt he will be a better shooter. Nope I don’t have qualms with Tre.

[Dex]

Tre is a 42nd pick in his 2nd year. Give the guy a break. But he has the best PG skills that we have, including Derrick imo. And he’s not afraid to attack the rim and get fouled either. He’s a very good lockdown defender I don’t doubt he will be a better shooter. Nope I don’t have qualms with Tre.

:lol I'm just busting chops. Obviously he can't help his size, but dude has actually been a pleasant surprise given his draft position. I'm glad to see him getting decent minutes to contribute, especially over Forbes (despite his explosion against GSW)

He may just be able to carve out a space in the NBA, whether with us or another team....but agreed he just needs to develop that outside jumper.

[heyheymymy]

Tough loss but this is the goldilocks scenario. We are competitive, young guys are getting burn and we are getting a good look at who to keep and who to move all while watching DJ emerge into an All NBA point guard! Add a top lottery pick (hopefully a 4 who can score) and we are back in the playoff hunt.

Great point, I agree. We're living in the sweet spot for best possible outcome this season. tanking stealth with a point diff that doesn't suggest it. Getting a solid core going to drop a possibly 7-10 pick level talent into next year. Secure Pop's record to garner the media fluff. Maybe get DJ some awards or nods.

Spurs still have a lot to work on but I just feel like it's a sexy tank and doesn't feel like a quagmire for how poor of contenders we are this year.

I wonder if PATFO see a draft pick they like and it's not a top 5 projection. As soon as the college season provided data, Spurs suddenly hit the stride like someone said we don't need as high of a pick as we first thought, win more games. Chet was too thin lol.

If Spurs see a guy in the 10-12 range that could be a nice fit instead of a top fiver, it opens some flexibility and they could tank a bit more competitively and still pull a heist in the draft too. Best tank ever. EDIT: Maybe even get some play in / playoff exp for the young guys.

But we have a ton of optimism. This team has a few gems already, with a full season of young guy focus and no ballhogs might expedite development, plus Primo will be another year less green, drop a 7-10 range pick into that, tailor picked for a good fit, could start to pull out of this nose dive.

[John B]

:lol I'm just busting chops. Obviously he can't help his size, but dude has actually been a pleasant surprise given his draft position. I'm glad to see him getting decent minutes to contribute, especially over Forbes (despite his explosion against GSW)

He may just be able to carve out a space in the NBA, whether with us or another team....but agreed he just needs to develop that outside jumper.

I like Tre. He pushes the tempo everytime. And you know the team is in correct flow when he’s in. I would say he’s like Avery Johnson-like as a General, with his high bball IQ, but could even be better because Tre has the burst of speed like TP, and deceptive athleticsm to attack the rim. You know once he’s start sinking his shots, and I don’t doubt he would, Tre would be a steal of that draft.

[heyheymymy]

I'm also wondering if it's not a bit of CIA Thad right now with the poor performances these past few games.

Is there a possibility that Thad is intentionally throwing his games to warn off some lesser "in the hunt" teams from getting interested and putting together a trade package so that he can secure a buy out instead and pick his contender in a city that his wife won't apparently complain about?

Is that even possible? I'm not the best with NBA contracts rules stuff. Point me in the right direction. Cause Thad threw a wounded duck last night from three that made me nauseous it was so bad lol. No way that's genuine lol the ball almost got wedged between the back iron and the glass!

[heyheymymy]

Tre reminds me of Cojo, def has the magic but not able to put it all together and carve a role

[Sugus]

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

Jakob is a very polarizing player, and has a lot of "haters" in ST, who certainly don't think he's worthy of a starting role because he's not jacking up 5 threes a game or driving to the rim on every play. As you say, he's playing at a bordeline All-Star this season, but even then it's not enough. It will probably never be, since anything less than Timmy from the C position is insufficient.

I can't complain too much, I have my own hangups as well, but it's certainly funny to read and a stupid take :lol

[spurraider21]

Poeltl has made plenty of strides this year and possibly the most important Spur right now, but only because we don’t have anybody else better? But an all-star, he’s not. I’m probably one of his bigger critics, but he also got plenty of praises from me this season. I don’t even mind the dunks anymore, but for Pete’s sake, it’s a lob city out there, and I mean for the opposing bigs. I agree Poeltl doesn’t have enough dog in him, and he occasionally needs to get his behind lit. And I agree, that’s the reason why many are intrigued with Drew because he doesn’t have a fraction of Poeltl’s skills but he has twice the motor.
this version of poeltl is an awesome starting center in today's NBA. but he's basically been a top 2 player, which shouldn't be the case on a good team.

[Sugus]

He's had good games. That's not the point.

He doesn't have much more than an ounce of dog in him.

Anyone remember Timmy (...)

Exactly :lol

Fucking predictable. And they say the Spurs fanbase ain't spoiled...

[Sugus]

While Poeltl is a terrific defender his lack of offense hurts our offense as much as his defense helps our defense. He is a complete non threat to do anything but flip up that stupid little shot of his and no one cares about that nor defends it. On any pick and roll with him the big just retreats all the way to the rim and doesn't care what Poeltl does, making it much harder for anyone to finish since there is always a big under the rim. I don't even know what his jumpshot form looks like since he never attempts one. His lack of shooting constricts the floor for everyone else. He isn't even a lob threat since he is determined to play like an unathletic stiff on offense. He is a backup center playing a starters role. Ideally we would get somebody with a semblance of offense to start and Poeltl could come off the bench or be a situational player depending on the match up. The very first 3 that Collins makes will make him as valuable on offense as Poeltl is on defense.

Bullshit post, lol.

His "lack of offense" (meaning lack of scoring specifically, since he's elite in many aspects of offense, including screen setting, PnR action) doesn't nearly hurt the Spurs as much as you say, otherwise his advanced stats would be neutral or in the negatives, like players who actually only play one side of the court (DeRozan, Forbes, et al).

Defenses don't care about the push shot until he makes two of them in a row, then they adjust, you could see it if you watched the game closer. In the same vein, what's the problem with the opposing big dropping in a PnR with Jakob? That's how a drop coverage works :lol. It's not up to the screener to magically score given that scenario, the correct play is for the ball-handler to punish that opening by simply doing a floater and scoring, and can do it over and over again. If we had a Tony Parker, CP3-level floater player (Dejounte could get there, Primo especially could get there) we could perfectly exploit that. Randomly blaming that on Jakob :lmao. If you say you can't play the PnP with him, that's a different argument, but then again, neither can you with Gobert.

He isn't a lob threat because he has bad hands, but especially because the Spurs as a team don't attempt lobs, another thing you weirdly single out Jakob for just to shit on him. Eubanks can catch a lob, yet never does. All of Keldon, Murray, Lonnie, Vassell, Primo even, can throw down a dunk off an alley-oop, yet never do. You know why? It's not because they all have bad hands... It's because we have no players able or willing to throw those lobs in the first place (or maybe Pop doesn't allow it? No way to know). It takes two to tango, and two to alley-oop, and we clearly are lacking the CP3 to our Blake Griffin for "Lob City" to happen. But ok....

Bullshit on Collins' 3 making him as valuable as Jakob :lol. There's an interesting paper floating around the net, explaining the exact opposite: shooting C's, while valuable as a defense stretcher, are less valuable than people think, since the tendency to shoot drives them outward into the perimeter, and away from the paint, reducing their value as "bigs" because they aren't there to perform vital tasks such as post screens, post ball-handling, outlet passing off rebounds, offensive rebounding in general, boxing out, etc. People nowadays are enamored with 5-out offense, but it's not clear-cut the best thing for your team to have only shooting C's. To that end, I've been advocating for a while to get a backup stretch-5; I thought Dieng would do it, but that wasn't the case.


You might wanna think things through instead of blindly bashing players without understanding their role and contributions to the team, tbh.

[offset formation]

Exactly :lol

Fucking predictable. And they say the Spurs fanbase ain't spoiled...

That was coldblooded editing of my post lol.

Honestly, I'd take Javale over Poeltl. Or any center that has not only talent like Jakob, but a bit of dog in him like Vassell and Murray and Tre, and others have. I just want some nasty that coach pop always asks for.

[offset formation]

Jakob is a very polarizing player, and has a lot of "haters" in ST, who certainly don't think he's worthy of a starting role because he's not jacking up 5 threes a game or driving to the rim on every play. As you say, he's playing at a bordeline All-Star this season, but even then it's not enough. It will probably never be, since anything less than Timmy from the C position is insufficient.

I can't complain too much, I have my own hangups as well, but it's certainly funny to read and a stupid take :lol

This stat alone (23rd PER amongst centers) chuckles that you think it's a stupid take or that you think he's doing anything that would warrant an all star level nod.

[Sugus]

This Stat (23rd PER amongst centers) chuckles that you think it's a stupid take or that you think he's doing anything that would warrant an all star level nod.

Ah yes, a single stat automatically determines players' deservingness of All-Star nods. Why even vote then, didn't anyone tell Adam Silver how easy to determine it was?!

I didn't say he was All-Star, he's borderline so, and I perfectly know he'll likely never be selected, both because he plays for the Spurs, a team ignored even when they're winning, and even moreso when losing; and because he's a defense-first player, in an offense-first league. Worse centers with more glamorous game will always be ahead of him in voting, especially given it's a vote decided by media, and even stupid fans.

I was gonna answer another comment with this, but here you go:




FG%
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PTS


.621
.323
5.2
6.4
11.6
2.7
0.7
0.7
1.9
15.2


.661
.653
4.1
9.5
13.6
1.3
0.6
2.8
1.9
14.9




These are PER 36 stats from both Jakob this season, and Gobert's 2016-17 season, which warranted him not an All-Star spot, but an All-NBA one (again, offensive bias is clear here in AS selections). Can you tell me which belongs to whom? Though I guess, Jakob's FT% will give it up... He's gotta get better there, for sure. But none of the other stats are as far away as you seem to imply they are. So what is it? Was Gobert undeserving of his All-NBA selection, or is Jakob doing better than you'd care to admit? Oh, but the PER....!

[wildbill2u]

It's always going to be tough to win with a closing lineup including Keldon. Suns are just packing the paint

He's not a very bright player on either side of the court. The more I see of him, the less I want him on the floor at the end of games, much less starting.

[Dejounte]

For the record, I don’t think Jakob is near All-Star level. I just think it’s shallow as hell to critique his game just because he doesn’t act like an animal on offense. There’s always a fine line that Jakob must tread when it comes to aggressiveness. His value on the court is immense that if he starts acting aggressive, he might pick up even more ticky tack fouls. Refs already call dumbass fouls on him on defense. There’s two sides to every coin and just because Jakob doesn’t meet one standard, doesn’t mean he’s easily replaceable by JaVale fucking McGee… a guy who is pretty much Eubanks but better. Guys like Eubanks and all their “nasty” is not enough for a starting C even if Eubanks was good. The lack of defensive principles shared by guys like that becomes a glaring hole on defense. You can easily solve the Jakob “lack-of-dog” issue by finding him a better backup. This way, it would be extremely difficult to find any flaws in the center rotation because you can just easily sub him out if Jakob is being soft (which is being over exaggerated by many).

[wildbill2u]

replying to post about Tre Jones and lots of NBA players who were in the "if they could only shoot" status: Yeah, but most of them weren't dwarfs. :eyebrows Actually, I kinda like the crafty way he often moves down among the big boys in the paint, but I don't see a Tony Parker in him. I don't ever remember Partker getting his jumper blocked like that. Too predictable???

[mo7888]

this version of poeltl is an awesome starting center in today's NBA. but he's basically been a top 2 player, which shouldn't be the case on a good team.

This pretty much.... He's a really good player but he should be the 4th or 5th best player... and he's paid like that (maybe even paid less than that)... it's not his fault.hes the 2nd best player on this team... it's up to the FO to put 4 better players around him... the high level of criticism towards Jak just isn't warranted....

[offset formation]

Ah yes, a single stat automatically determines players' deservingness of All-Star nods. Why even vote then, didn't anyone tell Adam Silver how easy to determine it was?!

I didn't say he was All-Star, he's borderline so, and I perfectly know he'll likely never be selected, both because he plays for the Spurs, a team ignored even when they're winning, and even moreso when losing; and because he's a defense-first player, in an offense-first league. Worse centers with more glamorous game will always be ahead of him in voting, especially given it's a vote decided by media, and even stupid fans.

I was gonna answer another comment with this, but here you go:




FG%
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PTS


.621
.323
5.2
6.4
11.6
2.7
0.7
0.7
1.9
15.2


.661
.653
4.1
9.5
13.6
1.3
0.6
2.8
1.9
14.9




These are PER 36 stats from both Jakob this season, and Gobert's 2016-17 season, which warranted him not an All-Star spot, but an All-NBA one (again, offensive bias is clear here in AS selections). Can you tell me which belongs to whom? Though I guess, Jakob's FT% will give it up... He's gotta get better there, for sure. But none of the other stats are as far away as you seem to imply they are. So what is it? Was Gobert undeserving of his All-NBA selection, or is Jakob doing better than you'd care to admit? Oh, but the PER....!

1. Gobert has always been overrated, as a complete player yes. But his defense is many magnitudes better than Jakob which is about the only thing Jakob can champion about his game. Gobert is also a much more skilled shooter and less of a liability when given the ball with no flow to the offense. Jakob goes full deer in headlights mode.
2. The biggest difference, and the PRIMARY reason Gobert got the nod are the nearly 3 blocks per game which are very close to all-time defensive NBA numbers.
3. And Jakob's FT% is more than just bad, it's abominable.
4. I don't hate Jakob if you think I do. He's clearly a better all around player this year. His offense and defense are better than last year which is all you can ask out of your players...other than to show some nasty. And he just, uh, never does.
5. To me, he's a career back up on a championship level team. Or a starter on a mediocre team. Even with his sub-par offensive game, he could change minds on that (like mine) by taking a power dribble from time to time and cocking it behind his head for a two hand power jam when the defender is on the other side of the rim and a quick power move would give your shot a higher %age of going in.

[TDomination]

Poeltl's excellent rim protection has been very evident this entire season as a whole and it helps our defense get stops when our offense is struggling to find shots.
I don't believe we need him to be much more than what he is offensively. I think of Tiago Splitter and the offense the spurs had with him at the 5. Tiago was as "soft" as they come but surrounded by the right players he worked well. His main thing was defense and passing.

Poeltl has shown some decent passing skills and has improved the pick and roll quite a bit. I think it just depends on what the spurs surround him with. But he can be, in my eyes, a legit starting center on a championship contender. No doubt.

[poopbox]

Bullshit post, lol.

His "lack of offense" (meaning lack of scoring specifically, since he's elite in many aspects of offense, including screen setting, PnR action) doesn't nearly hurt the Spurs as much as you say, otherwise his advanced stats would be neutral or in the negatives, like players who actually only play one side of the court (DeRozan, Forbes, et al).

Defenses don't care about the push shot until he makes two of them in a row, then they adjust, you could see it if you watched the game closer. In the same vein, what's the problem with the opposing big dropping in a PnR with Jakob? That's how a drop coverage works :lol. It's not up to the screener to magically score given that scenario, the correct play is for the ball-handler to punish that opening by simply doing a floater and scoring, and can do it over and over again. If we had a Tony Parker, CP3-level floater player (Dejounte could get there, Primo especially could get there) we could perfectly exploit that. Randomly blaming that on Jakob :lmao. If you say you can't play the PnP with him, that's a different argument, but then again, neither can you with Gobert.

He isn't a lob threat because he has bad hands, but especially because the Spurs as a team don't attempt lobs, another thing you weirdly single out Jakob for just to shit on him. Eubanks can catch a lob, yet never does. All of Keldon, Murray, Lonnie, Vassell, Primo even, can throw down a dunk off an alley-oop, yet never do. You know why? It's not because they all have bad hands... It's because we have no players able or willing to throw those lobs in the first place (or maybe Pop doesn't allow it? No way to know). It takes two to tango, and two to alley-oop, and we clearly are lacking the CP3 to our Blake Griffin for "Lob City" to happen. But ok....

Bullshit on Collins' 3 making him as valuable as Jakob :lol. There's an interesting paper floating around the net, explaining the exact opposite: shooting C's, while valuable as a defense stretcher, are less valuable than people think, since the tendency to shoot drives them outward into the perimeter, and away from the paint, reducing their value as "bigs" because they aren't there to perform vital tasks such as post screens, post ball-handling, outlet passing off rebounds, offensive rebounding in general, boxing out, etc. People nowadays are enamored with 5-out offense, but it's not clear-cut the best thing for your team to have only shooting C's. To that end, I've been advocating for a while to get a backup stretch-5; I thought Dieng would do it, but that wasn't the case.


You might wanna think things through instead of blindly bashing players without understanding their role and contributions to the team, tbh.

I didn't know Jakob posted on spurstalk :lmao

If you don't understand the issue with playing a big man who doesn't dunk or shoot jumpshots or shoot 3's then you don't understand modern basketball

Pop and the announcers are always on Poeltl about not dunking but your excuse is that nobody throws it to him and "pop doesn't allow lobs":rollin

If we swapped out Poeltl for even Javale this team would be better overall.

When was the last time Poeltl dominated the offensive glass and scored like Javale did in the 1st quarter last night ? Oh yeah that's right...fucking never :lmao

[Sugus]

I didn't know Jakob posted on spurstalk :lmao

If you don't understand the issue with playing a big man who doesn't dunk or shoot jumpshots or shoot 3's then you don't understand modern basketball

Pop and the announcers are always on Poeltl about not dunking but your excuse is that nobody throws it to him and "pop doesn't allow lobs":rollin

If we swapped out Poeltl for even Javale this team would be better overall.

When was the last time Poeltl dominated the offensive glass and scored like Javale did in the 1st quarter last night ? Oh yeah that's right...fucking never :lmao

You know you're backed into a corner when you resort to hyperbolic statements without anything to back them up. I was expecting a more coherent discussion, but alas....

If you really think swapping Jakob and starting Javale fucking McGee on a team in 2021, and have that team be better on both ends, you're simply delusional. He hasn't been better than Jakob on either end, and is a complete turnstile. He has a couple big dunks a game (which deludes fools like you) but is abysmal otherwise most of the time.

I didn't say I don't want Jakob dunking (nice twisting of words), I said he's present and active on the offensive end, even if he's doing things you don't value; these things are clearly valuable, as they show on impact stats, and the overall play of the team when Jakob is out, of which we have a really recent sample size to gauge at. You really think we'd be beating the Warriors and hanging until the final seconds against the Suns with Mc-Fucking-Gee? :lmao

Anyways, haters be haters I guess, no time worse wasted than teaching a fool who's content with staying so.

[EasyMoney]

Jakob is better, coming off the bench... he, Steven adams, Clint capella, rudy gobert...

[Sugus]

For the record, I don’t think Jakob is near All-Star level. I just think it’s shallow as hell to critique his game just because he doesn’t act like an animal on offense. There’s always a fine line that Jakob must tread when it comes to aggressiveness. His value on the court is immense that if he starts acting aggressive, he might pick up even more ticky tack fouls. Refs already call dumbass fouls on him on defense. There’s two sides to every coin and just because Jakob doesn’t meet one standard, doesn’t mean he’s easily replaceable by JaVale fucking McGee… a guy who is pretty much Eubanks but better. Guys like Eubanks and all their “nasty” is not enough for a starting C even if Eubanks was good. The lack of defensive principles shared by guys like that becomes a glaring hole on defense. You can easily solve the Jakob “lack-of-dog” issue by finding him a better backup. This way, it would be extremely difficult to find any flaws in the center rotation because you can just easily sub him out if Jakob is being soft (which is being over exaggerated by many).

It's very funny seeing posters twist the argument more and more as the posts go on, just to throw shit at Jakob.

First it was he's not even starting calibre and overpaid. Then, he's overpaid, but a solid backup that can start occasionally. Then, good enough to start, but nowhere near AS level (which is kind of where we're at right now). We'll see where the goalpost keeps moving towards... But I'm the first to say Jakob will never get an AS selection, simply because of the way the AS is selected and the offensive bias of the league. It literally took Gobert winning 2 DPOY in a row, and multiple All-NBA teams, to get his first AS nod.

Agree with the rest of your post, obviously. Instead of magically expecting Jakob to be a different player, the Spurs should focus on finding a complementary backup C. I thought the Dieng signing was great because of that, a stretch 5 with some physicality, but that didn't work out. Eubanks obviously isn't cutting it either. We'll see what the Spurs do, but I don't trust them too much on this front, for some reason.

[Sugus]

Jakob is better, coming off the bench... he, Steven adams, Clint capella, rudy gobert...

Imagine suggesting Rudy Gobert and Clint Capela gotta come off the bench, just to demote Jakob :lmao

Y'all really grasping at straws now. The 3pt revolution has turned people's brains to mashed potatoes, it's incredible how far the pendulum's swung. A shooting C isn't the be-all, end-all of roster building, and traditional centers absolutely still have a place in the league, a starting place. Lol.

[Sugus]

1. Gobert has always been overrated, as a complete player yes. But his defense is many magnitudes better than Jakob which is about the only thing Jakob can champion about his game. Gobert is also a much more skilled shooter and less of a liability when given the ball with no flow to the offense. Jakob goes full deer in headlights mode.
2. The biggest difference, and the PRIMARY reason Gobert got the nod are the nearly 3 blocks per game which are very close to all-time defensive NBA numbers.
3. And Jakob's FT% is more than just bad, it's abominable.
4. I don't hate Jakob if you think I do. He's clearly a better all around player this year. His offense and defense are better than last year which is all you can ask out of your players...other than to show some nasty. And he just, uh, never does.
5. To me, he's a career back up on a championship level team. Or a starter on a mediocre team. Even with his sub-par offensive game, he could change minds on that (like mine) by taking a power dribble from time to time and cocking it behind his head for a two hand power jam when the defender is on the other side of the rim and a quick power move would give your shot a higher %age of going in.

I've already said that I don't expect/want Jakob to make an AS team. As I said below, Gobert had to first make multiple All-NBA teams, AND win back-to-back DPOY awards, in order to make his first All-Star game. It's just not the interest of the league to put defensive-first players in the ASG, and that's ok. My argument all along has been "Jakob can be 80% of Gobert for 20% of the price", and each season we're getting closer to seeing that come true. I don't mind if you hate him, or don't, but give the guy his respect when due (and hate when it's due, too, like his FT% :lol).

For what it's worth, I don't agree that Gobert is overrated. His abilities have simply become less relevant as the league shifts towards more perimeter play, and the same happens to Jakob, but it doesn't equal over/underrating. Gobert is excellent. And yes, he absolutely needed that eye-popping stat of 3 blocks (completely arbitrary bar, just what the ASG wants) to get consideration. As for your valuation, I don't disagree - I'm not opposed to the idea of having Jakob be the way-above-average-backup to a Ayton-level starting C, for example. But that sort of players aren't found every day, and it's still to be decided if the Spurs will even tank for one of those; and if you're looking at constructing a championship-level contender, I'd argue it's much, much more valuable to focus on your guards and forwards to provide scoring, than it is to expect it from your center. It's this incorrect valuation that displeases me most, but to each their own I guess, there's not one single blueprint for championships after all.

[JeffDuncan]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

[Sugus]

Poeltl's excellent rim protection has been very evident this entire season as a whole and it helps our defense get stops when our offense is struggling to find shots.
I don't believe we need him to be much more than what he is offensively. I think of Tiago Splitter and the offense the spurs had with him at the 5. Tiago was as "soft" as they come but surrounded by the right players he worked well. His main thing was defense and passing.

Poeltl has shown some decent passing skills and has improved the pick and roll quite a bit. I think it just depends on what the spurs surround him with. But he can be, in my eyes, a legit starting center on a championship contender. No doubt.

Exactly, all perfect points. :tu

The REAL problem for the Spurs as constructed doesn't lie at the C, but at the PF position.... Keldon isn't cutting it and probably won't ever cut it as a PF, neither starting nor bench one. But I don't know if SpursTalk is ready for that conversation regarding him.

[Sugus]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

I always appreciate a stats-backed up post, even if it disagrees with my notions. Glad that it confirms them in this case, though, thanks my guy :tu

Btw, where'd you get those stats so clean and neat? Or did you just copy off the game boxscore?

I'm absolutely looking forward to the suspect crew telling me Ayton belongs in the bench, next to Gobert, Capela, and every center who isn't shooting 5 3's per game :lmao

[EasyMoney]

Imagine suggesting Rudy Gobert and Clint Capela gotta come off the bench, just to demote Jakob :lmao

Y'all really grasping at straws now. The 3pt revolution has turned people's brains to mashed potatoes, it's incredible how far the pendulum's swung. A shooting C isn't the be-all, end-all of roster building, and traditional centers absolutely still have a place in the league, a starting place. Lol.


Sorry I was a little vague. I was just putting him in that category of bigs who may be exposed in playoff time , like gobert himself

[poopbox]

Who exactly is Jakob even better than in the nba right now? Like if we and the Rockets called the Pacers offering Jakob or Christian Woods for Turner does anybody think they are taking Jakob?

If us and Kings call them about Turner does anyone think they are taking Jakob instead of Holmes ?

If us and the Hawks call about Turner do you think they are taking Jakob over Capella ?

[JeffDuncan]

I always appreciate a stats-backed up post, even if it disagrees with my notions. Glad that it confirms them in this case, though, thanks my guy :tu

Btw, where'd you get those stats so clean and neat? Or did you just copy off the game boxscore?


I just checked the box score and typed the stats in.

The talk about McGee has been pretty much context free, as if people don’t know who he is. He’s a 13 year vet who has 3 championship rings. He’s never been a star, but he’s a great big, highly experienced, tough sumbatch. Of course Eubanks couldn’t handle him, and neither could Thad.

Landale might have had the size and heft, to challenge McGee, but Jock has gotten no run. Like everybody else, I’m curious why not. He was available.

[heyheymymy]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

Damn, great post. Nice template to present the stats and I was surprised how similar they were. I'd argue too, that Ayton was out a huge offensive contributor in Booker so for him to still only match Poeltl means he didn't really fill into that void any with Booker out. Maybe just not part of the phx gameplan but there were definitely extra shots to be had.

I'd argue Booker being out doesn't compare to Spurs missing Dev, really.

[MannyIsGod]

Note, the original post said almost all star level. A center like Gobert is better, but not dramatically so and definitely not when you consider how little Poeltl gets paid in comparison. Its amazing how people will take individual stats out of context in order to shit on players as if we can't all look at the same stats and see what you leave out. The bottom line is that Poeltl is an excellent member of this team and is on part with Murray as the best asset the Spurs currently posses. Anyone thinking he's not a starter when he's an above average starter is idiotic.

[Sugus]

Sorry I was a little vague. I was just putting him in that category of bigs who may be exposed in playoff time , like gobert himself

No problem. But you make an interesting point, and one that is really worthy of a tangential debate: is it really that traditional bigs are "exposed" in the playoffs, or is it that their team can't fill out that offensive hole and prevent exploitation?

Take Capela, for example, who got played off the Rockettes' lineups Vs Golden State, and promptly shipped off the team... Only for the Rockettes to become significantly worse without that presence at C, on both ends, when obviously Westbrook couldn't live up to expectations and Gordon got tired of playing full-time C. Gobert, same thing - he can perfectly defend the perimeter and inside, and got "exposed" by being repeatedly drawn out of the paint, leaving the Jazz, filled with bad defenders, unable to fill that defensive hole without him.

Could it be that it's not about "exposing", but about creating unbalanced rosters that depend too much on a C's defensive presence? It's an honest question, since Jakob is hardly the only big affected by this. And moreso, are shooting bigs unable to be exposed due simply to their shooting? Or can they too, be exploited? What's the "unexposable" list of centers like? I suppose Embiid, for example, can't be exposed, but he's an MVP candidate, like Jokic. Certainly up for debate once you reach the "middle tier", and I think it's much more matchup-dependant than your original classification makes it out to be (e.g. Capela wouldn't be played off the floor against any team other than GSW, or Gobert wouldn't be "exposed" against a not-so-significantly-tilted shooting team like those Rockettes were).

[Sugus]

Who exactly is Jakob even better than in the nba right now? Like if we and the Rockets called the Pacers offering Jakob or Christian Woods for Turner does anybody think they are taking Jakob?

If us and Kings call them about Turner does anyone think they are taking Jakob instead of Holmes ?

If us and the Hawks call about Turner do you think they are taking Jakob over Capella ?

I take Jakob over CWood, tbh. Both because of defensive presence, and because of Wood's attitude problems, he's a complicated guy, I don't care that he shoots 3's, he's not even that efficient at it last time I checked. I absolutely take Jakob over Holmes, no question. But I take Capela over Jakob, due to his athleticism and good hands, he's the perfect lob recipient (though I still point out that the Spurs lack a solid lob thrower in the first place, and would be under-utilizing Capela).

[offset formation]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

Disingenuous much?

Ayton has both inside and outside game, at least out to the FT line extended with some consistency. He also had at least two jams. And plays above the rim on pick and rolls.

I think you'll also find upon closer inspection that Ayton is younger and has a much, much higher ceiling.

Besides, the player I want at center I made a thread about a few weeks back. I'm all about Valanciunas. Give the Pelicans a first or two and a player or two. Dude has been dropping 30 & 10 or better with regularity. He immediately makes us a better team. He brings nasty, has inside, and outside game and is a decent defender.

Poeltl is a known, known. You're gonna get very solid D. You're gonna get a foul prone big. You're gonna get atrocious FT shooting. You're gonna get a decent PnR and unplayable PnP player. You're gonna get a solid player...that has no nasty whatsoever.

[offset formation]

Note, the original post said almost all star level. A center like Gobert is better, but not dramatically so and definitely not when you consider how little Poeltl gets paid in comparison. Its amazing how people will take individual stats out of context in order to shit on players as if we can't all look at the same stats and see what you leave out. The bottom line is that Poeltl is an excellent member of this team and is on part with Murray as the best asset the Spurs currently posses. Anyone thinking he's not a starter when he's an above average starter is idiotic.

PER is the best, fairest stat inbasketball to judge a player's contributions. It's not a +/- that unfairly is affected by who one plays with. PER encapsulates a player and his overall impact on the game outside of most outside factors other than the players own abilities. If that s reams starter on anything other than on a mediocre team, you're simply not paying attention.

Asof today, Jakob measures below average (23rd to be exact) amongst all centers in the League. Elevating him above that (even to an all-star, lol) because you think or believe your eyes tell you otherwise is the definition of idiocy.

[offset formation]

You know the most damning thing I can say about Poeltl?

Our record over first 7 games with Poeltl: 2-5
Our record over next 7 games w/out Poeltl: 2-5
Our record over last 6 games: 3-3

He is what he is. A solid player. A starter on a mediocre team that plays solid D. Has extremely limited offensive potential with no nasty.

Not sure when that became so loved around here. Hell, LMA caught shit for more. Hell, LMA at 37, is still better if you use PER. And it's not even super close (2 pts)

[JeffDuncan]

Disingenuous much?

Indeed you are. But enough about you.




Ayton has both inside and outside game, at least out to the FT line extended with some consistency. He also had at least two jams. And plays above the rim on pick and rolls.


And after that rhetoric, Poeltl scored the same number of points as Ayton. How many points is your rhetoric worth?

Poeltl out rebounded Ayton. Btw. Did you notice?

The thing is, rhetoric like that may fill time on tv, or on podcasts, or on the internet, but it’s worthless for scoring points, or getting rebounds, or winning games. But ok, to you it sounds nice. It’s actually meaningless.

If you want to trade for Jonas V, that sounds fine, so go for it, and good luck.

[poopbox]

Indeed you are. But enough about you.




And after that rhetoric, Poeltl scored the same number of points as Ayton. How many points is your rhetoric worth?

Poeltl out rebounded Ayton. Btw. Did you notice?

The thing is, rhetoric like that may fill time on tv, or on podcasts, or on the internet, but it’s worthless for scoring points, or getting rebounds, or winning games. But ok, to you it sounds nice. It’s actually meaningless.

If you want to trade for Jonas V, that sounds fine, so go for it, and good luck.

It's not about the number of points, it's how and when you score them. Poeltl scores because nobody makes any concerted effort to stop his little pop a shot. Out of all the things that are going on during an nba possession, a 7ft guy flipping the ball up from 10 feet with one hand probably doesn't even make the bottom of the list.

Ayton catches lobs, has actual post moves, has an almost average face up jump shot. Do you think if you showed the suns a sheet of paper that shows how similar Poeltl and Ayton stats are you could convince them to trade Ayton for Poeltl? If it's all about numbers on a spreadsheet it would be a no brainer for the suns cause they get a guy who puts up similar numbers to the guy they have for only 9 million a year while the guy they have wants a max contract

[poopbox]

I take Jakob over CWood, tbh. Both because of defensive presence, and because of Wood's attitude problems, he's a complicated guy, I don't care that he shoots 3's, he's not even that efficient at it last time I checked. I absolutely take Jakob over Holmes, no question. But I take Capela over Jakob, due to his athleticism and good hands, he's the perfect lob recipient (though I still point out that the Spurs lack a solid lob thrower in the first place, and would be under-utilizing Capela).

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

[MannyIsGod]

PER is the best, fairest stat inbasketball to judge a player's contributions. It's not a +/- that unfairly is affected by who one plays with. PER encapsulates a player and his overall impact on the game outside of most outside factors other than the players own abilities. If that s reams starter on anything other than on a mediocre team, you're simply not paying attention.

Asof today, Jakob measures below average (23rd to be exact) amongst all centers in the League. Elevating him above that (even to an all-star, lol) because you think or believe your eyes tell you otherwise is the definition of idiocy.


Per is NOT the best stat for this. Especially not for a center who's main contributions come on defense. THe fact that you legit think Aldridge is better than Poeltl based on PER is mind blowing.

[MannyIsGod]

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

I doubt there's many NBA GMs who take Holmes frankly.

[RC_Drunkford]

Poeltl is not the issue. The issues are the forward spots, especially PF

[Chinook]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) ElNono (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054)


:lol

I've actually been thinking about this recently. Players have definitely adjusted to that kind of close-out and are much more comfortable shooting a three off a reset dribble or an aborted motion. From my perspective this is just part of the change toward shooting threes, just like centers shooting more and players shooting from longer distances. Having to restart the motion used to really drop the percentage. I don't know that it does anymore.

[Drom John]

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual fuck?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this shit. Wow.

FiveThirtyEight Raptor WAR Western Conference Centers

1) 4.8 Nikola Jokic
2) 3.6 Rudy Gobert
3) 2.1 Jaren Jackson
4) 1.8 Isaiah Hartenstein, Jusuf Nurkic
6) 1.6 Steven Adams
7) 1.4 Jakob Poeltl

IMO, that a clear NBA starting center, but not almost playing at an all star level.

27) 0.2 Damian Jones, Jock Landale, Boban Marjonovich

41) -0.3 Willie Cauley-Stein, Drew Eubanks, Derrick Favors, Jaxson Hayes, DeAndre Jordan, Daniel Thies, Cody Zeller

[MannyIsGod]

FiveThirtyEight Raptor WAR Western Conference Centers

1) 4.8 Nikola Jokic
2) 3.6 Rudy Gobert
3) 2.1 Jaren Jackson
4) 1.8 Isaiah Hartenstein, Jusuf Nurkic
6) 1.6 Steven Adams
7) 1.4 Jakob Poeltl

IMO, that a clear NBA starting center, but not almost playing at an all star level.

27) 0.2 Damian Jones, Jock Landale, Boban Marjonovich

41) -0.3 Willie Cauley-Stein, Drew Eubanks, Derrick Favors, Jaxson Hayes, DeAndre Jordan, Daniel Thies, Cody Zeller

Use RAPTOR not WAR. There's a reason Jakob is lower on WAR. Hint, what does the W stand for? Raptor he's tied for 5th in the conference. Whether you consider that almost all star or not is subjective, but what is not subjective is the idea that Jakob is a clearly above average starting center in the NBA.

[Sugus]

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

Late reply, sorry.

I dislike the appeal to authority rhethoric; yes, I think many GMs getting paid millions of dollars would take Poeltl, not only because he's better, but also because (or in spite of) GMs aren't necessarily the brightest people on Earth, regardless of how much they get paid. A GM getting paid millions of dollars, too, took Bagley over Doncic, and another one thought the Rockettes could win a ring without any actual Cs on the roster, and yet another thought pairing Westbrook with LeBron was a championship-level move, just to name some recent examples. They're far from infallible, lol.

I have little doubt that Poeltl's offensive woes (which, again, he looks to have been working on, and was doing much better until he got hit with COVID earlier in the season) put a ceiling on the team, but that doesn't mean he's not a good player, starter material, and can get close to AS level play. In the same vein, I could point out things about every Spurs starter that "puts a cap on the team", because at the end of the day, it's a rebuilding team, right...? No MVP candidates on the roster to save us. So it's a weird criticism to make.

And btw, he doesn't need to take jump shots. That's what you want, but not what he needs to do at all - I'd say a stronger post game is a much more meaningful addition. 3pt revolution really fucked up players' evaluations, sadly.

[poopbox]

The only person we have on our team to put in size on Gordon is Keldon

[poopbox]

back to back turnovers :lmao