Pop doesn't get it... Small ball doesn't work and never has

[duncan2k5]

He literally thinks it means putting smaller players to play positions that aren't their natural position... No small ball team has ever won a ring... Matter of fact, they all were bigger than average teams...

Before this era, small ball was intiguing because not many bigs shot threes very well, so u had to put a smaller player... In this era where there's more space, and the rules are different, small ball gets punished because the best teams play big... Bucks are HUGE... The Cavs sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Grizzlies sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Even Curry's warriors were on the bigger side when they won rings...

We need to start another actual big player longside Poetl... Bring either either kedlon or Doug off the bench... Kelson is NOT a pf... He is and always has been a SG/SF... His strength is rendered useless against ppl bigger than him... When he plays against SF he can body them inside, and he can still keep up with them on defense...

Big teams win... Cut the small ball shit

[KingKev]

Vassell and KJ were born to play the 4.

[Leetonidas]

We don't have a PF on the roster really aside from maybe KBD who is a fringe rotation player at best. Not sure what you expect them to do right now. I'm sure this will be addressed in the off-season

Starting another big we don't have just to do it is dumb. We should be losing games anyway. Spurs got rid of every player you wanted them to last season and you're still complaining lol

Btw, who are all these contenders that play big? The Cavs have emerged because they drafted top tier talent and have an Allstar PG. It's not because they play big. It's because they lucked into drafting a generational talent in Mobley

Contenders are contenders because they have top end talent and a top 10 players on their team, not because they play big or whatever

[Leetonidas]

Another thing to note, Grizz didn't become good "until they started playing twin towers." The Grizz are elite because Morant has taken a huge leap, Bane has too, and JJJ is healthy. Valancunias was their C with them before and their tall lineup wasn't winning shit. What a coincidence that all these teams also either have elite PGs or top 10 or MVP level guys on the team.

[paperboy77]

He literally thinks it means putting smaller players to play positions that aren't their natural position... No small ball team has ever won a ring... Matter of fact, they all were bigger than average teams...

Before this era, small ball was intiguing because not many bigs shot threes very well, so u had to put a smaller player... In this era where there's more space, and the rules are different, small ball gets punished because the best teams play big... Bucks are HUGE... The Cavs sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Grizzlies sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Even Curry's warriors were on the bigger side when they won rings...

We need to start another actual big player longside Poetl... Bring either either kedlon or Doug off the bench... Kelson is NOT a pf... He is and always has been a SG/SF... His strength is rendered useless against ppl bigger than him... When he plays against SF he can body them inside, and he can still keep up with them on defense...

Big teams win... Cut the small ball shit

I've continually said KJ will never be more than what we've seen and that we should trade him while people think he's better than he is. Even his 3pt shot will go to shit after teams hone in on that skill. Too slow to keep up with gurards or SF and too short vs many SF and PF. Those are issues you can't really solve.

Tank for Chet!

[paperboy77]

We don't have a PF on the roster really aside from maybe KBD who is a fringe rotation player at best. Not sure what you expect them to do right now. I'm sure this will be addressed in the off-season

Starting another big we don't have just to do it is dumb. We should be losing games anyway. Spurs got rid of every player you wanted them to last season and you're still complaining lol

Btw, who are all these contenders that play big? The Cavs have emerged because they drafted top tier talent and have an Allstar PG. It's not because they play big. It's because they lucked into drafting a generational talent in Mobley

Contenders are contenders because they have top end talent and a top 10 players on their team, not because they play big or whatever


Already calling him that? Ok.

[paperboy77]

Another thing to note, Grizz didn't become good "until they started playing twin towers." The Grizz are elite because Morant has taken a huge leap, Bane has too, and JJJ is healthy. Valancunias was their C with them before and their tall lineup wasn't winning shit. What a coincidence that all these teams also either have elite PGs or top 10 or MVP level guys on the team.

Small ball still sucks tho.

Curry needed Durant. Morant is badass but still hasn't won shit. Paul? Who are these championship caliber elite point guards you speak of?

Last time an elite PG was killing it in the finals it was TP in 07' and we were a fairly big team.

[Leetonidas]

Small ball still sucks tho.

Curry needed Durant. Morant is badass but still hasn't won shit. Paul? Who are these championship caliber elite point guards you speak of?

Last time an elite PG was killing it in the finals it was TP in 07' and we were a fairly big team.

I'm not saying small ball is awesome or great or defending it. My point is that we, for one, don't have the personnel, and two, OPs point about teams being good this year because the play big being incorrect.

Yes, we need a real PF. But we're also a rebuilding team trying to get a top pick. The only solution to the OP is to start the only PF we have, KBD, which is a bad idea because he isn't good. You don't play big just to do it when you don't have the personnel

[Leetonidas]

top 4 teams in each conference

1. Miami - Bam/Tucker at C/PF (not big ball, Tucker is 6'5")
2. Bulls - Vuc/Demar at C/PF (not big ball, Demar is 6'6")
3. Cleveland Allen/Mobley at C/PF (big ball)
4. 76ers - Embiid/Harris at C/PF (I don't really consider Harris a "big" on O or D, only 6'7")

1. Suns - Ayton/Crowder at C/PF (not big ball, Crowder is 6'7")
2. Warriors - Looney/Green at C/PF (not big ball, Green is 6'5")
3. Grizzlies - Adams/JJJ at C/PF (big ball)
4. Jazz - Gobert/O'Neal at C/PF (not big, O'Neal is 6'5")


I could keep going but you get the point. Only two of these teams play "big" and most of them start an undersized player at PF :lol

It's not 2010 anymore guys. The days of two big teams are over unless one of them is an elite three point shooter

[Sugus]

Another thing to note, Grizz didn't become good "until they started playing twin towers." The Grizz are elite because Morant has taken a huge leap, Bane has too, and JJJ is healthy. Valancunias was their C with them before and their tall lineup wasn't winning shit. What a coincidence that all these teams also either have elite PGs or top 10 or MVP level guys on the team.

Great post. And it's exactly what the Spurs lack, top end talent (if it comes at the hands of a big man, even better). They'd look completely different if they had, idk, Banchero at PF instead of Keldon.


Starting another big we don't have just to do it is dumb. We should be losing games anyway. Spurs got rid of every player you wanted them to last season and you're still complaining lol

:lmao

[Sugus]

Small ball still sucks tho.

Curry needed Durant. Morant is badass but still hasn't won shit. Paul? Who are these championship caliber elite point guards you speak of?

Last time an elite PG was killing it in the finals it was TP in 07' and we were a fairly big team.

Ah yes, Durant, the instrumental piece of that '15 Dubs ring. What a tired and stupid shtick :lol

CP3 came extremely close to a ring more than once, was literally in the Finals last season, and only didn't win due to Giannis playing out of his mind, and they have a chance to go at it again. Bad example. Of course Curry is the prime example, but I'm figuring you'll brush him off based on your previous comment. Morant is like 21, of course he hasn't won anything... lol.

Correctly utilized (and well-manned in personnel) small-ball can perfectly be a winning strategy, especially in the modern game. '15 was a testament to it with the Death Lineup and all that jazz.

[John B]

I like small ball basketball. But your players need to shoot the lights out, or the opponent will control the rebound and the tempo. And the Spurs are not the league best in shooting percentage. In the days of the Bad Boys, they played a 3 guards rotation with Rodman and Laimbeer as bigs, and had no problem repeating. But they had Isiah, Dumars, and Vinnie shooting deep, even Laimbeer ahead of his time shooting outside. The Dubs had Draymond Green, and again best shooting players around. So the argument against small ball as not championship team holds no water. I will not argue which style is best. Certainly Spurs won with the twin tower controlling the tempo, while Knicks big lineup of Ewing, Oakley, Charles Smith, Mason couldn't sniff a final. It depends which team can impose their will, and it’s not necessarily just being big.

[daslicer]

I like small ball basketball. But your players need to shoot the lights out, or the opponent will control the rebound and the tempo. And the Spurs are not the league best in shooting percentage. In the days of the Bad Boys, they played a 3 guards rotation with Rodman and Laimbeer as bigs, and had no problem repeating. But they had Isiah, Dumars, and Vinnie shooting deep, even Laimbeer ahead of his time shooting outside. The Dubs had Draymond Green, and again best shooting players around. So the argument against small ball as not championship team holds no water. I will not argue which style is best. Certainly Spurs won with the twin tower controlling the tempo, while Knicks big lineup of Ewing, Oakley, Charles Smith, Mason couldn't sniff a final. It depends which team can impose their will, and it’s not necessarily just being big.

I have never liked small ball and never will. You don't need a twin tower set up to win titles, but you do need to at least be medium big in size which is to have a 7ft center and a PF that is in the range of 6'7-6'9 in height who has a long wingspan.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Being successful isn't about playing small ball or big ball. As some posters have already explained most good teams don't play big. Lakers are at their best with LeBron at the 5.

It's about three things - the most important is pure talent, then an offensive/defensive scheme that allows the team to not suffer the downsides of playing either small or big ( say rebounding well when playing small or spreading the floor enough when playing big ). The third one is versatility, i.e. being able to field lineups that match well with opponents regardless of how they play.

[daslicer]

Being successful isn't about playing small ball or big ball. As some posters have already explained most good teams don't play big. Lakers are at their best with LeBron at the 5.

It's about three things - the most important is pure talent, then an offensive/defensive scheme that allows the team to not suffer the downsides of playing either small or big ( say rebounding well when playing small or spreading the floor enough when playing big ). The third one is versatility, i.e. being able to field lineups that match well with opponents regardless of how they play.

Lakers won a title with Davis playing PF and a combination of Mcgee and Dwight at Center. They weren't small when they won. Playing Lebron at PF for a 5-minute stretch during a title run doesn't count.

[John B]

I have never liked small ball and never will. You don't need a twin tower set up to win titles, but you do need to at least be medium big in size which is to have a 7ft center and a PF that is in the range of 6'7-6'9 in height who has a long wingspan.

Small ball hitting the lights out >>> Bigs 2 points
100 FG x 40% 3pts = 120 pts. >>> 100 FG x 50% 2pts = 100 pts
This is oversimplified to make a point. Nothing wrong with small ball, as long as it’s hitting high percentage shots

[Chinook]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

[Mr. Body]

It's amazing how the winningest coach of all time gets it wrong so often.

[John B]

It's amazing how the winningest coach of all time gets it wrong so often.

True :lol.

[daslicer]

Small ball hitting the lights out >>> Bigs 2 points
100 FG x 40% 3pts = 120 pts. >>> 100 FG x 50% 2pts = 100 pts
This is oversimplified to make a point. Nothing wrong with small ball, as long as it’s hitting high percentage shots

Right and outside of the Warriors there is no team that has won a title playing that style. You need to have GOAT level shooters to make that equation you listed above work.

[daslicer]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

Lebron is a legit 6'9. That's the height of a PF so it's not really playing small ball with him playing at PF and he didn't do it exclusively. They had Shane Battier play PF a lot who is 6'8 and had Haslem who is 6'8 play it a lot. At times Lebron would start at PF but he didn't do it every game.

[John B]

Right and outside of the Warriors there is no team that has won a title playing that style. You need to have GOAT level shooters to make that equation you listed above work.

Bad Boys did with Isiah/Dumars and Microwave from the bench hitting deep, with Rodman at PF. That was the original small ball (at least in my lifetime).

[Chinook]

Lebron is a legit 6'9. That's the height of a PF so it's not really playing small ball with him playing at PF and he didn't do it exclusively. They had Shane Battier play PF a lot who is 6'8 and had Haslem who is 6'8 play it a lot. At times Lebron would start at PF but he didn't do it every game.

Nah, Lebron played PF basically every second he was on the court. He wasn't just the second-tallest guy on the court either. He specifically bulked up and played with his back to the basket that year. That's why Diaw could supposedly guard him. My point, regardless, wasn't that Lebron playing PF is small-ball. Dude's the same size as Karl Malone was. My point was that there's no reason to talk about whether Lebron won as a PF with the Lakers. He already unabashedly won as a PF for the Heat. That may not be small-ball, but if it is, then it was already before anything with the Lakers recently.

To the actual point of this thread, it shouldn't matter what style wins a title. Not to the Spurs, at least. They're nowhere near a contender, and they'll have to swap out quite a few players to get there. Johnson playing PF now is fine if that's what it takes for the Spurs to develop. I don't think they should be married to it at all, but I also don't think Keldon should be their developmental priority right now anyway.

[Poolboy5623]

If it leads to a better draft pick, play smaller imo..

[daslicer]

Bad Boys did with Isiah/Dumars and Microwave from the bench hitting deep, with Rodman at PF. That was the original small ball (at least in my lifetime).

I didn't watch basketball until '92. But I looked up some old videos and I see the Pistons either starting Mahorn at PF or Bill Edwards both were 6'10 and taller. They never started Rodman at PF during their title runs but he started at SF during their second run which gave them a big lineup. I can't see how that lineup is a small ball line up.

[daslicer]

Nah, Lebron played PF basically every second he was on the court. He wasn't just the second-tallest guy on the court either. He specifically bulked up and played with his back to the basket that year. That's why Diaw could supposedly guard him. My point, regardless, wasn't that Lebron playing PF is small-ball. Dude's the same size as Karl Malone was. My point was that there's no reason to talk about whether Lebron won as a PF with the Lakers. He already unabashedly won as a PF for the Heat. That may not be small-ball, but if it is, then it was already before anything with the Lakers recently.

To the actual point of this thread, it shouldn't matter what style wins a title. Not to the Spurs, at least. They're nowhere near a contender, and they'll have to swap out quite a few players to get there. Johnson playing PF now is fine if that's what it takes for the Spurs to develop. I don't think they should be married to it at all, but I also don't think Keldon should be their developmental priority right now anyway.

Let's say Lebron did play PF full time for the Heat it still goes against small ball. Like I said Lebron is a legit 6'9 so he wasn't undersized to play that position and physically he is huge. Right now, it's fine for the Spurs to play Keldon at PF since they are not trying to contend but long term if they want to be an elite team again, they will have to find a legit PF with height.

[MultiTroll]

Bad Boys did with Isiah/Dumars and Microwave from the bench hitting deep, with Rodman at PF. That was the original small ball (at least in my lifetime).
6'11" Lambier.
Rodman a wide body and good rebounder albeit stat padder. But he had the shooters you mentioned behind him so rebound away.
But Rodman could board with other PFs 7 days a week.
Not Timmy Dunker, but your average PF easily.

[R. DeMurre]

I think the terms small ball and positionless basketball get thrown around a lot and usually without a very strong connection to reality. The issue for the Spurs with McDermott and KJ isn't necessarily size as much as talent and impact. If you replaced them with Jimmy Butler and Luka Doncic, the Spurs would be much better-- not because those guys are great fits as a starting forward tandem, but simply because they're better players generally. Hell, the Spurs would likely be better starting Herb Jones and Chris Boucher, neither of whom is a star, or exceptionally tall. If KJ and McDermott are your 8th & 9th players, your team is probably outstanding. If they're your starters, you're a 12th seed with a 22-36 record.

[RC_Drunkford]

to play small ball efficiently you need to have a line up of 5 good 3-point shooters and your small ball 5 better be a serious defender. This team has 2 players shooting over 35% from 3 and KBD as the only player who can play small ball 5. That's a recipe for disaster. Why Pop hasn't solved the PF problem yet, I don't have a clue.

[Leetonidas]

Lebron is a legit 6'9. That's the height of a PF so it's not really playing small ball with him playing at PF and he didn't do it exclusively. They had Shane Battier play PF a lot who is 6'8 and had Haslem who is 6'8 play it a lot. At times Lebron would start at PF but he didn't do it every game.

In 2013 he was considered a shorter PF. Griffin, Aldridge, Love, Dirk, Randolph, even David Lee were making the all NBA team as Fs back then and now pretty much all of them would be a C in 2022.

But lebron is a supremely unique talent so not sure using him is a good point of anything :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Pop would probably play a tall forward if we had one that was worth a sh!t.


You've successfully pointed out one of the weaknesses of our roster, but this team doesn't have Pascal Siakam to stick in the lineup. My guess is that if we had that type of player that he'd get lots of PT.

[Portnoy1000]

In rare defense of Pop, Morris(markieff I think?) Was supposed to solve that problem as Lamarcus was too slow to play the 4. That fell through. Then they drafted Samanic and he was supposed to be the problem solver for that. A 6-10 guy that is mobile and was average at the 3pt shot. He never did anything. I was hoping Zollins would help out at the PF spot, but he's sadly slower than I expected, which may have to do with injuries. Unfortunately what happened starting last season is that Aldridge rebounding was so bad (4 per game) that opened a way for Keldon to get minutes because he was grabbing 7-8rbs a game while Aldridge was struggling and that was fools gold. Because of that it seems the Spurs didn't look to improve in that area.

[John B]

I didn't watch basketball until '92. But I looked up some old videos and I see the Pistons either starting Mahorn at PF or Bill Edwards both were 6'10 and taller. They never started Rodman at PF during their title runs but he started at SF during their second run which gave them a big lineup. I can't see how that lineup is a small ball line up.

The Pistons’ big men were “role players”, in contrast to the prior two champs before, Celtics/Lakers, who had big men posting heavily, Jabbar, McHale and Parish. The Pistons were heavy in guards ball movements, almost always having 3 guards in the lineup, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre or Vinnie coming from the bench (the term “microwave” sixth man). I will call the 89-90 Bad Boys were “small ball” because of the guard dominated ball, instead of heavy posting in the paint.

I’m not advocating any style as the best. Pop won in different types. I do like “small ball” though because of the ball movement and I play guard myself :lol. But I also like Sloans’ PNR with Stockton/Malone, that was perfection. The Birds’ Celtics and the Spurs Beautiful Game have beautiful passes to break defense, Magic’s Showtime run and gun game made me an NBA fan. Nelson always experimented with the small ball, Run TMC but fizzled in the playoffs. While Doug’s heavy offense, no defense (similar to some modern teams, not as bad this year compared to the last 3 years) were the ugliest.

But you play with your best personnel. Spurs are young and athletic. I see why Pop is pushing the tempo, with heavy passes to break defenses (albeit without a real go-to player yet). But the Beautiful Game needs to be played in near perfection, hard cuts and crisp passes, and shooting high percentage, less it would collapse. And for a young team still learning the ropes, that takes time.

[daslicer]

In 2013 he was considered a shorter PF. Griffin, Aldridge, Love, Dirk, Randolph, even David Lee were making the all NBA team as Fs back then and now pretty much all of them would be a C in 2022.

But lebron is a supremely unique talent so not sure using him is a good point of anything :lol

He was as tall as Griffin, Love, Zbo so again he wasn't undersized for the position plus even back then he was huge.

[daslicer]

The Pistons’ big men were “role players”, in contrast to the prior two champs before, Celtics/Lakers, who had big men posting heavily, Jabbar, McHale and Parish. The Pistons were heavy in guards ball movements, almost always having 3 guards in the lineup, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre or Vinnie coming from the bench (the term “microwave” sixth man). I will call the 89-90 Bad Boys were “small ball” because of the guard dominated ball, instead of heavy posting in the paint.

I’m not advocating any style as the best. Pop won in different types. I do like “small ball” though because of the ball movement and I play guard myself :lol. But I also like Sloans’ PNR with Stockton/Malone, that was perfection. The Birds’ Celtics and the Spurs Beautiful Game have beautiful passes to break defense, Magic’s Showtime run and gun game made me an NBA fan. Nelson always experimented with the small ball, Run TMC but fizzled in the playoffs. While Doug’s heavy offense, no defense (similar to some modern teams, not as bad this year compared to the last 3 years) were the ugliest.

But you play with your best personnel. Spurs are young and athletic. I see why Pop is pushing the tempo, with heavy passes to break defenses (albeit without a real go-to player yet). But the Beautiful Game needs to be played in near perfection, hard cuts and crisp passes, and shooting high percentage, less it would collapse. And for a young team still learning the ropes, that takes time.

Laimbeer made it to a few all-star games so I wouldn't say he was a role player. You can say Edwards, Mahorn were role players but still the Pistons went big which was my point. Sure, they went with a 3-guard lineup, but they weren't' committed to being a true small ball team in the sense of having an undersized frontline.

I personally hate small ball, but I get you having a preference for it. Everybody has certain styles of play they like. It is very difficult to be a good defensive team when you are grossly undersized at the PF spot or C spot or even both at the same time. Spurs right now are grossly undersized at the PF spot with Keldon playing the position. It doesn't matter since they are not trying to win games but in the long term it will need to be resolved.

[Leetonidas]

He was as tall as Griffin, Love, Zbo so again he wasn't undersized for the position plus even back then he was huge.

True but like I said, using one of the most uniquely athletic players of all time to make that point doesn't mean much considering his physique and athleticism combo is basically unique to him only. He's an exception not the rule. He's one of the only players at his peak you could probably ask to guard any opposing player for a stretch and he could because of supreme genetics

[james evans]

Small ball still sucks tho.

Curry needed Durant. Morant is badass but still hasn't won shit. Paul? Who are these championship caliber elite point guards you speak of?

Last time an elite PG was killing it in the finals it was TP in 07' and we were a fairly big team.
against one of the worst backcourts in Finals history. Any of us up here that play ball, playiing alongside a prime Duncan and 2nd year ginobili could have averaged 10 ppg against Sasha, boobie, and hughes. Am I lying?

[james evans]

6'11" Lambier.
Rodman a wide body and good rebounder albeit stat padder. But he had the shooters you mentioned behind him so rebound away.
But Rodman could board with other PFs 7 days a week.
Not Timmy Dunker, but your average PF easily.
Rodman was about the size of Kobe in his prime during his piston years. He was about 210 lbs at the most back then lol

[John B]

Laimbeer made it to a few all-star games so I wouldn't say he was a role player. You can say Edwards, Mahorn were role players but still the Pistons went big which was my point. Sure, they went with a 3-guard lineup, but they weren't' committed to being a true small ball team in the sense of having an undersized frontline.

I personally hate small ball, but I get you having a preference for it. Everybody has certain styles of play they like. It is very difficult to be a good defensive team when you are grossly undersized at the PF spot or C spot or even both at the same time. Spurs right now are grossly undersized at the PF spot with Keldon playing the position. It doesn't matter since they are not trying to win games but in the long term it will need to be resolved.

I should’ve said, Laimbeer did not play the prototypical big men game. But he was shooting the 3’s and creating lanes for his 3 guards. And he was far from the athletic big man posting. I was responding to no “small ball” team have ever won championship. I said the Warriors did, and the Bad Boys (small ball because they were guards dominated team, instead of the heavy big men posting), of I know of.

[MultiTroll]

Maybe his colors made him appear heavier.
https://i2.wp.com/www.ghpage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Dennis-Rodman.jpg?resize=696%2C452&ssl=1

[XDT76]

Let's get this straight playing nonathletic undersize players is not the definition of small ball basketball. Both our current forward are both not athletic nor long, thus we often see players blow by them or out jump them. We seldom even see them blowing by big men, we are so under size, under skill and under athletic that I have an impression of them cutting in and the defenders do not even need to jump to defend them and cause our players to miss layup.

[daslicer]

I should’ve said, Laimbeer did not play the prototypical big men game. But he was shooting the 3’s and creating lanes for his 3 guards. And he was far from the athletic big man posting. I was responding to no “small ball” team have ever won championship. I said the Warriors did, and the Bad Boys (small ball because they were guards dominated team, instead of the heavy big men posting), of I know of.

Your argument is still flawed because the Pistons were not a small ball team. They would not have been a good defensive team if they didn't have Laimbeer, Mahorn, Edward who were all 6'10 and above. Have you forgotten that defense is also part of the game and not just offense? That's my point you can't win defensively if you have an undersized team. It's almost impossible to do.

[paperboy77]

Ah yes, Durant, the instrumental piece of that '15 Dubs ring. What a tired and stupid shtick :lol

CP3 came extremely close to a ring more than once, was literally in the Finals last season, and only didn't win due to Giannis playing out of his mind, and they have a chance to go at it again. Bad example. Of course Curry is the prime example, but I'm figuring you'll brush him off based on your previous comment. Morant is like 21, of course he hasn't won anything... lol.

Correctly utilized (and well-manned in personnel) small-ball can perfectly be a winning strategy, especially in the modern game. '15 was a testament to it with the Death Lineup and all that jazz.

2015 GS team was a long time ago! You could say that was the exception not the norm. I'm not saying that tall lineups are a given but neither are small ones. Once again the team that wins it all (besides the BS bubble championship) is usually well constructed, probably has a good coach, is balanced or star heavy and sometimes lucky. There is no real magic formula unless you're talking a dynasty which by itself is also fairly uncommon.

Coincidentally, Paul lost to a "tall" team.

[paperboy77]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

LeBron is huge.

[paperboy77]

I didn't watch basketball until '92. But I looked up some old videos and I see the Pistons either starting Mahorn at PF or Bill Edwards both were 6'10 and taller. They never started Rodman at PF during their title runs but he started at SF during their second run which gave them a big lineup. I can't see how that lineup is a small ball line up.

Not only that but they did it with defense. That's what got them over the top.

[paperboy77]

against one of the worst backcourts in Finals history. Any of us up here that play ball, playiing alongside a prime Duncan and 2nd year ginobili could have averaged 10 ppg against Sasha, boobie, and hughes. Am I lying?

You are speaking truth. Had we played Detroit instead.. you never know. Maybe Manu woulda won it.

[daslicer]

2015 GS team was a long time ago! You could say that was the exception not the norm. I'm not saying that tall lineups are a given but neither are small ones. Once again the team that wins it all (besides the BS bubble championship) is usually well constructed, probably has a good coach, is balanced or star heavy and sometimes lucky. There is no real magic formula unless you're talking a dynasty which by itself is also fairly uncommon.

Coincidentally, Paul lost to a "tall" team.

I think a lot of people are clueless about the defensive side of the game. Even though the league is more offense oriented today you still need to be good defensively to be an elite team. That's very hard to achieve if you are an undersized team at multiple positions.

People have this obsession with saying Warriors won with small ball but it's only a half truth. Even the 2015 team was a big team with Bogut starting at center and Ezeli backing him up. The only guy who was undersized was Draymond at PF but he has a long wingspan that makes up for him being a little small on the height side. That team did have the death line up where they would play Lee at Center, but they could only get away with it for small stretches in a game. No way they could play a full game and have success with that line up consistently.

The worst thing the Warriors did was give this league an illusion that you could win titles by jacking up 3's and playing small ball. They have been so many failed copycats going that route the last several years. I still remember how dumb Mowry was when he thought the Rockets could win a title by being a small team and got rid of Capela.

[donaldsonian]

Maybe Cacok will help fill the PF void next year, he’s not that tall but is built for the position more than anyone else currently on the roster.

[daslicer]

Let's get this straight playing nonathletic undersize players is not the definition of small ball basketball. Both our current forward are both not athletic nor long, thus we often see players blow by them or out jump them. We seldom even see them blowing by big men, we are so under size, under skill and under athletic that I have an impression of them cutting in and the defenders do not even need to jump to defend them and cause our players to miss layup.

Spurs have been playing micro ball all year. They have too many undersized players that can only be guards but are forced to play out of position at forward spots. This is just another example how poorly constructed this roster is. They desperately need a legit SF and PF.

[MultiTroll]

People have this obsession with saying Warriors won with small ball but it's only a half truth. Even the 2015 team was a big team with Bogut starting at center and Ezeli backing him up. The only guy who was undersized was Draymond at PF but he has a long wingspan that makes up for him being a little small on the height side. That team did have the death line up where they would play Lee at Center, but they could only get away with it for small stretches in a game. No way they could play a full game and have success with that line up consistently.
The Warriors bigs Bogus and Donkey were allowed to get away with so much bullshit, false screens, Donkey kicks all the while the opponents in all 3 rounds were decimated with timely injuries.
Credit to how good Lebron was that he made it a series with Kyrie blowing out a knee.
Warrior bigs impressive? Not really.

[XDT76]

Spurs have been playing micro ball all year. They have too many undersized players that can only be guards but are forced to play out of position at forward spots. This is just another example how poorly constructed this roster is. They desperately need a legit SF and PF.

I nearly go crazy when we played Keldon as the 5 despite for a short stretch some time back (In the game that Poeltl and Landale were elbowed, we still have Young and Eubank).

[XDT76]

The Warriors bigs Bogus and Donkey were allowed to get away with so much bullshit, false screens, Donkey kicks all the while the opponents in all 3 rounds were decimated with timely injuries.
Credit to how good Lebron was that he made it a series with Kyrie blowing out a knee.
Warrior bigs impressive? Not really.

I was so pissed that Green was allowed to blatantly hold onto defenders Jersey to get Curry free without any consequence.

[GAustex]

It's amazing how the winningest coach of all time gets it wrong so often.

[daslicer]

I nearly go crazy when we played Keldon as the 5 despite for a short stretch some time back (In the game that Poeltl and Landale were elbowed, we still have Young and Eubank).

What did for me was seeing the game where the Spurs played the Knicks at home. At one point in the game, they had Keldon at Center and Lonnie playing the PF trying to guard Randle. That to me was just the mark of absurdity.

[daslicer]

The Warriors bigs Bogus and Donkey were allowed to get away with so much bullshit, false screens, Donkey kicks all the while the opponents in all 3 rounds were decimated with timely injuries.
Credit to how good Lebron was that he made it a series with Kyrie blowing out a knee.
Warrior bigs impressive? Not really.

I actually agree with you. Draymond to me is manufactured defensive star in the sense the refs allow him to get away with hacking guys along with grabbing their jerseys. If he played on crappy team like the Thunder he would be out of the league once his contract ended.

[paperboy77]

I think a lot of people are clueless about the defensive side of the game. Even though the league is more offense oriented today you still need to be good defensively to be an elite team. That's very hard to achieve if you are an undersized team at multiple positions.

People have this obsession with saying Warriors won with small ball but it's only a half truth. Even the 2015 team was a big team with Bogut starting at center and Ezeli backing him up. The only guy who was undersized was Draymond at PF but he has a long wingspan that makes up for him being a little small on the height side. That team did have the death line up where they would play Lee at Center, but they could only get away with it for small stretches in a game. No way they could play a full game and have success with that line up consistently.

The worst thing the Warriors did was give this league an illusion that you could win titles by jacking up 3's and playing small ball. They have been so many failed copycats going that route the last several years. I still remember how dumb Mowry was when he thought the Rockets could win a title by being a small team and got rid of Capela.

Kind of agree on your last point. I think the media made it seem like anyone could be Curry. Next, the suckers that take their words to heart carried the torch from there.

[Chinook]

LeBron is huge.

You're correct, but you're missing the context of the comment. People were questioning whether James/Davis as a PF/C could win based on their size. The answer is obviously yes. James has already proven that he could be a PF on a title team even back in the day. They shouldn't be in the discussion of small-ball teams. The same is true when guys like KD or PG play the four. There's a huge difference between those guys and someone like Keldon or DeRozan playing the position. I think a lot of fans get that, but some don't agree apparently.

[XDT76]

You're correct, but you're missing the context of the comment. People were questioning whether James/Davis as a PF/C could win based on their size. The answer is obviously yes. James has already proven that he could be a PF on a title team even back in the day. They shouldn't be in the discussion of small-ball teams. The same is true when guys like KD or PG play the four. There's a huge difference between those guys and someone like Keldon or DeRozan playing the position. I think a lot of fans get that, but some don't agree apparently.

Playing small balls actually require the PF/C to have a high level of physical ability and skill, looking the successful cases those guys are strong, long, athletic and skillful. When looking at the cases that doesn't work they are either missing 1, 2 or 3 of those. Playing under size player who don't have the ability is call playing a screwed up line-up not small ball. Small ball is not new, Charles Barley has been a PF all his NBA life and no one think any other PF in the NBA can walk over him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

remember 06 mavs beat spurms in wcf?

pop went looking for small ball lineup like the mavs, by wasting like 6years draft picks looking for that backup pg and wingman....

[ducks]

He literally thinks it means putting smaller players to play positions that aren't their natural position... No small ball team has ever won a ring... Matter of fact, they all were bigger than average teams...

Before this era, small ball was intiguing because not many bigs shot threes very well, so u had to put a smaller player... In this era where there's more space, and the rules are different, small ball gets punished because the best teams play big... Bucks are HUGE... The Cavs sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Grizzlies sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Even Curry's warriors were on the bigger side when they won rings...

We need to start another actual big player longside Poetl... Bring either either kedlon or Doug off the bench... Kelson is NOT a pf... He is and always has been a SG/SF... His strength is rendered useless against ppl bigger than him... When he plays against SF he can body them inside, and he can still keep up with them on defense...

Big teams win... Cut the small ball shit

Pop voted for biden
Enough said

[ducks]

It's amazing how the winningest coach of all time gets it wrong so often.

David Robison and Duncan saved his ass
Up to a point Leonard did then he bolted
Look what he has done without those 3 players
How many wins did he get without those 3 players
Then many of the wins also have hall of famer tp and a player named manu

[daslicer]

remember 06 mavs beat spurms in wcf?

pop went looking for small ball lineup like the mavs, by wasting like 6years draft picks looking for that backup pg and wingman....

One of Pop's many dumb moves because allegedly Nazr and Rasho couldn't guard Dirk. Still Dirk wasn't going to get his regardless of who was guarding him. The key problem was the Spurs gave up too many second chance points due to the stupid small ball line up.

[daslicer]

David Robison and Duncan saved his ass
Up to a point Leonard did then he bolted
Look what he has done without those 3 players
How many wins did he get without those 3 players
Then many of the wins also have hall of famer tp and a player named manu

Agreed the NBA is the league where coaching is greatly overrated. Coaching can only influence 5 percent of the game at best and that's through substitutions, match ups, and refs. The rest is determined by the players.

[DAF86]

The Spurs do need to add length though. We already have a 7 feet wingspan all-star PG. Let's build around that and form the longest team in the NBA. That doesn't mean getting an old-fashioned bigman PF. A 6'8/6'9" ish guy that can move, rebound and alter shots at the rim would be ideal. I wanna bully teams inside, get most of the rebounds and be a hard team to score on.

[John B]

Agreed the NBA is the league where coaching is greatly overrated. Coaching can only influence 5 percent of the game at best and that's through substitutions, match ups, and refs. The rest is determined by the players.

So the Beautiful Game was 95% determined by the players who figured out by themselves the picks and screens and ball movements? I guess MJ taught himself the triangle offense? And players just decided by themselves how to attack zones, or how to defend Harden or closeout Steph. Interesting :lol

[RC_Drunkford]

The Spurs do need to add length though. We already have a 7 feet wingspan all-star PG. Let's build around that and form the longest team in the NBA. That doesn't mean getting an old-fashioned bigman PF. A 6'8/6'9" ish guy that can move, rebound and alter shots at the rim would be ideal. I wanna bully teams inside, get most of the rebounds and be a hard team to score on.

John Collins cough...

I'd be even more pleased if we could somehow draft Banchero or Smith, but the chances are pretty slim

[rankingtear]

100% sure Pop would trade Keldon for Mobley.

Keldon is small but we still play a traditional big , i don't see why this is considered small ball might as well call Jazz a small ball team they have the shortest starting lineup in the league.

[r0drig0lac]

Pop loves micro ball, it's not a lineup issue (which is also his responsibility), if he's going to try something different, he'll always be using smaller lineups and not the other way around.

[John B]

^ because contrary to some belief, coaching is reacting to the other teams’ coaching. If the opponent go big, Pop could counter getting small and fast. I personally like small ball IF you can sustain it with great shooting and crisp ball movement. A great team could impose their style of play and force the opponent to play their style. The Spurs is far from it especially with what I think Pop is trying to create, fast tempo with plenty of passes. I really think PJ Washington and Kai Jones for Poeltl would’ve been ideal. I can see PATFO to find something similar this off season.

[exstatic]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTgwNjA5NDg3MzQwNTc4MTUy/draymond-green-on-meeting-stephen-curry-and-klay-thompson-for-the-first-time-those-two-guys-arent-going-to-give-you-anything-not-to-like-about-them.jpg

[John B]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTgwNjA5NDg3MzQwNTc4MTUy/draymond-green-on-meeting-stephen-curry-and-klay-thompson-for-the-first-time-those-two-guys-arent-going-to-give-you-anything-not-to-like-about-them.jpg

The perfect small ball poison. This with KD playing in high level would impose their style and force opponent to adapt. I doubt Shaq and Kobe could outscore 120 points with Shaq too slow and unable to hit free throws, especially if KD were on the lineup. I like Spurs 2014 chances with Kawhi and Green clamping on defense, Kawhi almost single-handledly did before getting Zaza’d, and that’s without Timmy, and with older TP/Manu. Bulls 1995 with MJ/Rodman and Pippen’s defense would also beat this team.

[exstatic]

The perfect small ball poison. This with KD playing in high level would impose their style and force opponent to adapt. I doubt Shaq and Kobe could outscore 120 points with Shaq too slow and unable to hit free throws, especially if KD were on the lineup. I like Spurs 2014 chances with Kawhi and Green clamping on defense, Kawhi almost single-handledly did before getting Zaza’d, and that’s without Timmy, and with older TP/Manu. Bulls 1995 with MJ/Rodman and Pippen’s defense would also beat this team.

They did it once without KD, playing 6’6” Draymond at center, and are poised for another run, also without KD.

[KingKev]

They did it once without KD, playing 6’6” Draymond at center, and are poised for another run, also without KD.

Draymond’s D is pretty elite however. Solid basketball IQ and not tasked with much else.

[XDT76]

Draymond’s D is pretty elite however. Solid basketball IQ and not tasked with much else.

U mean nut kicking, Jersey pulling and moving screens? Yap he was great in those aspects.

[KingKev]

U mean nut kicking, Jersey pulling and moving screens? Yap he was great in those aspects.

Bowen had his moments too. I’m not a huge Draymond fan but he is definitely a guy you want on your team.

[MultiTroll]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTgwNjA5NDg3MzQwNTc4MTUy/draymond-green-on-meeting-stephen-curry-and-klay-thompson-for-the-first-time-those-two-guys-arent-going-to-give-you-anything-not-to-like-about-them.jpg
3 phaggots walk into a bar in Cleveland.

[XDT76]

Bowen had his moments too. I’m not a huge Draymond fan but he is definitely a guy you want on your team.

I agree but I just felt that he was somewhat overhyped bcos he was playing for the warriors and get away with quite a fair bit. He definitely has the grit and the BBIQ

[daslicer]

Bowen had his moments too. I’m not a huge Draymond fan but he is definitely a guy you want on your team.

Bowen didn't get special treatment from the refs to do illegal screens and hack and grab. Draymond certainly wouldn't get those calls if he played for the Spurs which would make him useless.

[daslicer]

So the Beautiful Game was 95% determined by the players who figured out by themselves the picks and screens and ball movements? I guess MJ taught himself the triangle offense? And players just decided by themselves how to attack zones, or how to defend Harden or closeout Steph. Interesting :lol

:lol I'll give you credit this take is not as dumb as your take when you said Detroit was winning titles playing small ball when in fact, they weren't by starting two guys who were nearly 7ft tall.

Do you think the triangle, the '14 Spurs would have worked without Jordan-Pippen, Duncan-Manu-Parker guys who are HOFers? Some random coach would have had the same type of success with those players with any system they implemented because those players are great. There is a reason why "Great Coaches" can't succeed with bottom of the barrel talent like we are seeing right now with Pop because players talent largely determines how great a team is.

[daslicer]

They did it once without KD, playing 6’6” Draymond at center, and are poised for another run, also without KD.

During the '15 title run Bogut played Center who was 7ft tall and his backup was Speights who is 6'10 and played Center. Draymond hardly played center for them. It's amazing how you guys have to lie to sell the small ball narrative.

[rankingtear]

During the '15 title run Bogut played Center who was 7ft tall and his backup was Speights who is 6'10 and played Center. Draymond hardly played center for them. It's amazing how you guys have to lie to sell the small ball narrative.

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612744&LastNGames=6

[Gagnrath]

top 4 teams in each conference

1. Miami - Bam/Tucker at C/PF (not big ball, Tucker is 6'5")
2. Bulls - Vuc/Demar at C/PF (not big ball, Demar is 6'6")
3. Cleveland Allen/Mobley at C/PF (big ball)
4. 76ers - Embiid/Harris at C/PF (I don't really consider Harris a "big" on O or D, only 6'7")

1. Suns - Ayton/Crowder at C/PF (not big ball, Crowder is 6'7")
2. Warriors - Looney/Green at C/PF (not big ball, Green is 6'5")
3. Grizzlies - Adams/JJJ at C/PF (big ball)
4. Jazz - Gobert/O'Neal at C/PF (not big, O'Neal is 6'5")


I could keep going but you get the point. Only two of these teams play "big" and most of them start an undersized player at PF :lol

It's not 2010 anymore guys. The days of two big teams are over unless one of them is an elite three point shooter

Its not an elite three point shooter that's needed at PF, it's a tall guy who is a bit more mobile that what was in past eras, and has decent shooting from three. The big reason for this is really a lack of dominate centers and high end Power forwards.

[LeBowen]

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612744&LastNGames=6

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

[rankingtear]

Draymond Green is an unusual case-- he's not tall, but his wingspan is 7''1" and his standing reach is 8'9". By comparison, Poeltl's wingspan is 7'2.75" and his standing reach is 8'9.5". Herb Jones of New Orleans (Primo's teammate at Alabama) is another guy like that, who has also been praised for his D this season: his height is 6'7.25", but his standing reach is 8'10"(better than Poeltl & Draymond) and his wingspan is 7'0.25".

It's really interesting how bone structure & such can lead to surprising measurements that often trick the simple eye test. You'd think that Poeltl being taller than Jones and having a larger wingspan would naturally mean he also had a bigger standing reach, but it's not the case.

Poeltl has 9'3.5 standing reach.

[Gagnrath]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

LeBron is a legitimate 6'8" and is listed as 6'9" (which was probably there in his early 20s fully straightened out and him still having hair ( that is and always has been power forward size) What made him special was his PF build with very good speed for a small forward, and very good ball handling and passing.

[R. DeMurre]

Poeltl has 9'3.5 standing reach.

oh, shit-- you're right. Thanks for the correction. There were some places where it was incorrectly reported: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-League-Office-Draft-Combine-Measurements-Under-Review-5499/

[daslicer]

You do know that data is searchable. In the finals Draymond at center was their most used. Whole playoffs it closer to 1/3rd than hardly.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612744&LastNGames=6

All I see is a bunch of line ups the Warriors played during the playoffs. I don't see no data the specifically says Draymond played an X amount minutes at center. Please post stats that say specifically he played a certain number of minutes at center. I know basketball reference has a tool that allows you to do this. So go look there and find it.

Let's say Draymond did actually play 1/3 of the time at center during the playoffs then it still proves my point small ball is not feasible since Draymond didn't play the majority of minutes at center. That is the debate here which is you can't build a team to play small ball for the majority of the game. It's just not doable.

[rankingtear]

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

Well it is the 14-15 season.

[daslicer]

It worked only because other contenders didn't really have bigs who could exploit the small ball without being torched on the other end.
Warriors smallball didn't work against 2017 Spurs. AD also killed them, but Pelicans were nothing special so noone cared.

Easy to play small against Steven Adams or TT.
KLove just sat at the 3pt line and got torched on defense.

There's no way they'd be able to play against Giannis, Embiid or Jokic without an actual big. Draymond would get in foul trouble every single game.

Agreed. It's why I feel the Bucks will take out the Warriors if they face each other in the finals. Warriors have nobody that can match up defensively with Giannis. Draymond is too undersized and physically can't bully Giannis so he will get run over and curb stomped.

[Gagnrath]

Pop voted for biden
Enough said

Pop didn't make the choices, Between Trump and Biden is like choosing between kicked in the balls or sucker punched. When you go no I want a different choice, the system says well you can say something different but you're going to get whichever the majority says when asked between kicked in the junk or sucker-punched

[Gagnrath]

Bowen didn't get special treatment from the refs to do illegal screens and hack and grab. Draymond certainly wouldn't get those calls if he played for the Spurs which would make him useless.

Eh once you make an all defensive team you get some extra leeway, that hand which brushes the ball handlers side near the waist is balance not psuedo hand checking, that swipe which is borderline isn't reaching in. A bit more incidental contact is ok. Don't get me wrong it's not a peak LeBron carrying/travel level whistle swallow but having a all defensive team/DYOP votes helps a decent amount

[rankingtear]

All I see is a bunch of line ups the Warriors played during the playoffs. I don't see no data the specifically says Draymond played an X amount minutes at center. Please post stats that say specifically he played a certain number of minutes at center. I know basketball reference has a tool that allows you to do this. So go look there and find it.

Let's say Draymond did actually play 1/3 of the time at center during the playoffs then it still proves my point small ball is not feasible since Draymond didn't play the majority of minutes at center. That is the debate here which is you can't build a team to play small ball for the majority of the game. It's just not doable.

Yeah it adds up 32% of Draymond minutes are at C. If your hardly is 1/3 then I won't argue with you.

[Chinook]

LeBron is a legitimate 6'8" and is listed as 6'9" (which was probably there in his early 20s fully straightened out and him still having hair ( that is and always has been power forward size) What made him special was his PF build with very good speed for a small forward, and very good ball handling and passing.

Again, we've talked about this multiple times. I was responding to the people saying James/Davis would be small-ball now. James/Bosh already won, so either James isn't small-ball or James showed he can win if he is small-ball. In either event using the Lakers' front court as evidence of small-ball not working doesn't make sense.

[Leetonidas]

Its not an elite three point shooter that's needed at PF, it's a tall guy who is a bit more mobile that what was in past eras, and has decent shooting from three. The big reason for this is really a lack of dominate centers and high end Power forwards.

I didn't say it needed to be a PF. I said if you're running a two big lineup in 2022 one of them should be an elite shooter, which is definitely true

[John B]

:lol I'll give you credit this take is not as dumb as your take when you said Detroit was winning titles playing small ball when in fact, they weren't by starting two guys who were nearly 7ft tall.

Do you think the triangle, the '14 Spurs would have worked without Jordan-Pippen, Duncan-Manu-Parker guys who are HOFers? Some random coach would have had the same type of success with those players with any system they implemented because those players are great. There is a reason why "Great Coaches" can't succeed with bottom of the barrel talent like we are seeing right now with Pop because players talent largely determines how great a team is.

Look who's calling dumb who thinks basketball is only 5% coaching :lmao You think Coaching is just pacing in the sidelines monitoring fouls, game minutes, etc? Coaching includes ALL the preparations BEFORE and DURING games, preparing players, line-ups against teams, and specific players, creating mismatches, plays that highlights each players strength, etc. You said it's enough to have HOFers? Why do you think then that the Lakers with future Hofer's Lebron, AD, Melo, Westbrick, Howard are sub .500? If it's all about the players. You're a joke :lmao

So you think some random guy just thought of the "Beautiful Game" and implemented it, because as you said, coaching is just 5% of the game? Not considering that Spurs have 3 still very good, but out-of-their-prime future hofers, hmm.. passing big men, knockdown shooters? defensive perimeters? So assembling and harnessing the collective talent the personnel have, and make it a winning style of play is not coaching? Or put a random coach, you said. Do you really think Vogel, for example, could have figured that out? Or Luke Walton or maybe Chauncey Billups perhaps? :lmao

Regarding the 89-90 Pistons, I said "I consider" them a small ball because it was 1. highlighted 3 guards every time, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre and Vinnie "Microwave" coming off the bench, 2. Laimbeer, though 6'11", played not the typical big-man game, but shooting outside shots, 3 pointers, which at that time was not very common game for a big man. Pistons was not your typical dump-the-ball-in-the-post game compared to the McHalle/Parish and Jabbar in prior years. Don't get fixated on the height, it's the style of play that I'm talking about. But I guess it's difficult to comprehend when you think coaching is only 5% of the game :lmao

[LeBowen]

Well it is the 14-15 season.

The point still stands. Small ball only worked because other contenders didn't have bigs good enough to exploit it.

And it's not like Lebron didn't keep tearing them a new one every single game because there was no rim protection.

[daslicer]

Look who's calling dumb who thinks basketball is only 5% coaching :lmao You think Coaching is just pacing in the sidelines monitoring fouls, game minutes, etc? Coaching includes ALL the preparations BEFORE and DURING games, preparing players, line-ups against teams, and specific players, creating mismatches, plays that highlights each players strength, etc. You said it's enough to have HOFers? Why do you think then that the Lakers with future Hofer's Lebron, AD, Melo, Westbrick, Howard are sub .500? If it's all about the players. You're a joke :lmao

So you think some random guy just thought of the "Beautiful Game" and implemented it, because as you said, coaching is just 5% of the game? Not considering that Spurs have 3 still very good, but out-of-their-prime future hofers, hmm.. passing big men, knockdown shooters? defensive perimeters? So assembling and harnessing the collective talent the personnel have, and make it a winning style of play is not coaching? Or put a random coach, you said. Do you really think Vogel, for example, could have figured that out? Or Luke Walton or maybe Chauncey Billups perhaps? :lmao

Regarding the 89-90 Pistons, I said "I consider" them a small ball because it was 1. highlighted 3 guards every time, Isiah, Dumars, Maguirre and Vinnie "Microwave" coming off the bench, 2. Laimbeer, though 6'11", played not the typical big-man game, but shooting outside shots, 3 pointers, which at that time was not very common game for a big man. Pistons was not your typical dump-the-ball-in-the-post game compared to the McHalle/Parish and Jabbar in prior years. Don't get fixated on the height, it's the style of play that I'm talking about. But I guess it's difficult to comprehend when you think coaching is only 5% of the game :lmao


1. Dwight is washed up, Westbrick is the most overrated player of all time. Lebron and AD have been injured all year. That pretty much explains why the lakers don't have a good record. If both Lebron and AD were healthy their record would be much better. Proving my point player's matter more than coaching.

2. I do believe any coach could have coached the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, the Manu-Duncan-Parker Spurs and even the '14 Spurs and still won. Great players make coaches look great not the other way around. Those guys you mentioned would have succeeded because their systems that normally fail with mediocre players would have thrived with the great players I mentioned. When it comes to assembling a roster, it is the GM that does that and not the coach.

3. You keep screaming the Pistons were a small ball team simply because offensively they didn't have post up players which is a stupid argument because my issue with small ball is the defensive side of the game. On the defensive side the Pistons were not playing small ball line ups that's why I keep bring up their PF-C being nearly 7 feet. This has been my argument for a while which is you can't win playing undersized defensively and the Pistons. It's obvious you are too stupid to comprehend what I have been stressing about small ball which it is a defensive liability.

[daslicer]

Eh once you make an all defensive team you get some extra leeway, that hand which brushes the ball handlers side near the waist is balance not psuedo hand checking, that swipe which is borderline isn't reaching in. A bit more incidental contact is ok. Don't get me wrong it's not a peak LeBron carrying/travel level whistle swallow but having a all defensive team/DYOP votes helps a decent amount

You only get special treatment if you play on the glamour teams in the big markets. I never seen small market players get special treatment. I would say when Bruce got away with things, he had to be sneaky for the refs not to catch him. Bruce was good at sneaking in cheap shots this is what allowed him to get underneath the skin of opponents. In Draymond's case he doesn't even have to be sneaky. He can be obvious with his grabbing, holding, hand checking, kicking.

[rankingtear]

The point still stands. Small ball only worked because other contenders didn't have bigs good enough to exploit it.

And it's not like Lebron didn't keep tearing them a new one every single game because there was no rim protection.

They went through MEM though that Gasol - ZBO is not nothing.

[emanueldavidginobili]

This team just doesn't have the personnel to play big this season. Small ball could work if we have the right guy to plug into that small ball PF position but the Spurs don't. Even if we had a PF and slid Keldon to the 3 Spurs would still have some problems there. Keldon is in a predicament, he clearly can't play the 4 and is too slow to play the 3 right now. He has a lot of work to do in the offseason, Draymond a couple weeks ago said he thinks KJ can be an All Star but has to lose 10-15 pounds. Going to have to wait until the offseason to hopefully address these issues nothing the Spurs really can do right now.
1488701269518675968

[John B]

1. Dwight is washed up, Westbrick is the most overrated player of all time. Lebron and AD have been injured all year. That pretty much explains why the lakers don't have a good record. If both Lebron and AD were healthy their record would be much better. Proving my point player's matter more than coaching.

2. I do believe any coach could have coached the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, the Manu-Duncan-Parker Spurs and even the '14 Spurs and still won. Great players make coaches look great not the other way around. Those guys you mentioned would have succeeded because their systems that normally fail with mediocre players would have thrived with the great players I mentioned. When it comes to assembling a roster, it is the GM that does that and not the coach.

3. You keep screaming the Pistons were a small ball team simply because offensively they didn't have post up players which is a stupid argument because my issue with small ball is the defensive side of the game. On the defensive side the Pistons were not playing small ball line ups that's why I keep bring up their PF-C being nearly 7 feet. This has been my argument for a while which is you can't win playing undersized defensively and the Pistons. It's obvious you are too stupid to comprehend what I have been stressing about small ball which it is a defensive liability.

Ok 5%. How do you explain Sloans’s 19 years of hofers Stockton-Malone not even getting 1 ring? How about Van Gundy having Ewing and Co? Or with Ming and T-Mac? All hofers, no rings, nada. Having Hofers are not enough boy. Coaches actually need to get them playing great at specific time. It’s not enough to have a Formula One Car or a winning racehorse. Somebody actually needs to ride it. I hate Phil Jackson, but MJ, The GOAT himself, wasn’t winning rings without him. And your point about GM, you think Pop had nothing to do with selecting Spurs players? :lol

Bruh, I’m going to close this in a positive note. We’re both fans and obviously passionate about the Spurs. My view is 1. Coaches doesn’t just contribute 5% on winning championships. It’s at least 50/50 or even more. Porzingis is a bad combination with Luka, or is it? It takes a Coach to figure it out, make them compliment each other’s game, and start winning. 2. It’s my opinion that the 89-90 Pistons were playing small ball because of 3 guards and big man shooting outside style. Hey, you have your opinion, I got mine. :bobo

[KobesAchilles]

this place is gonna freak out when our draft pick is 6'4 again :lol

[XDT76]

this place is gonna freak out when our draft pick is 6'4 again :lol

All 3 picks

[Chomag]

Fuck it, let's go all in!

[TD 21]

People still seem confused about the term "small ball". It's not about height (length/strength often matter more) so much as skillset. Unless you have a superstar or star small guard, nobody wants to be small anywhere. They want to be big, versatile and skilled. There's just a dearth of quality modern fours to make these lineups go.

It is funny/ironic though that in a league obsessed with doing everything they can to limit the power of bigs, they've wrestled back control the past few seasons and are the three best current players.



Lakers won a title with Davis playing PF and a combination of Mcgee and Dwight at Center. They weren't small when they won. Playing Lebron at PF for a 5-minute stretch during a title run doesn't count.

Nah, they did the inevitable and necessary to have a legit chance to win the title: Downsized to Davis as the lone traditional big from the Rockets series on, with the exception of stretches vs Jokic.

But playing Davis and James at their modern positions doesn't constitute "small ball" anyway, just like it didn't when the Spurs played Aldridge and Gay at theirs.

[Gagnrath]

I didn't say it needed to be a PF. I said if you're running a two big lineup in 2022 one of them should be an elite shooter, which is definitely true

I don't feel that way neither of them need to be elite, if one is above average the other can be below average but not a non-shooter, or both can be respectable but not good. The idea is that at least one has to have shooting gravity to pull a defender away from the bucket, I would argue that has always been wanted it's just that the midrange isn't respected today so it makes everyone babthree shooter.

[daslicer]

Ok 5%. How do you explain Sloans’s 19 years of hofers Stockton-Malone not even getting 1 ring? How about Van Gundy having Ewing and Co? Or with Ming and T-Mac? All hofers, no rings, nada. Having Hofers are not enough boy. Coaches actually need to get them playing great at specific time. It’s not enough to have a Formula One Car or a winning racehorse. Somebody actually needs to ride it. I hate Phil Jackson, but MJ, The GOAT himself, wasn’t winning rings without him. And your point about GM, you think Pop had nothing to do with selecting Spurs players? :lol

Bruh, I’m going to close this in a positive note. We’re both fans and obviously passionate about the Spurs. My view is 1. Coaches doesn’t just contribute 5% on winning championships. It’s at least 50/50 or even more. Porzingis is a bad combination with Luka, or is it? It takes a Coach to figure it out, make them compliment each other’s game, and start winning. 2. It’s my opinion that the 89-90 Pistons were playing small ball because of 3 guards and big man shooting outside style. Hey, you have your opinion, I got mine. :bobo

1. Tmac and Yao were injury prone that's why they failed if we are being honest in here which goes back to players. Jordan was better than Ewing. The better question to ask is if Phil Jackson would have won with the Ewing Knicks against the Jordan and Pippen bulls. The answer is no in my eyes.

2. I'm just going to disagree with you. Coaching is not 50 percent as valuable as the players. If that was the case, you could put Pop on the worst team in the league and he would be able to guide them to the playoffs. You are basically saying he's just as important as a superstar by saying what you did, and we know he isn't. There is a reason why Jeff Van Gundy refuses to coach again unless he's given a team that has superstars because he knows he won't be able to succeed without them. It's the same reason why Phil Jackson was always selective when it came to the teams he coached after the bulls. Hell, Tyron Lue couldn't do jackshit in Cleveland once Lebron left. Are you telling me Tyron Lue is 50 percent as valuable as Lebron?

3. I do laugh how you are stubborn not to admit the Pistons were big team. You keep ignoring the DEFENSIVE aspect of the game in which like I said a hundred times that the Pistons started a twin tower line up at PF-C. When I think of small ball it means you are undersized defensively. For example, I doubt the Pistons win if they are starting Keldon Johnson at PF instead of Mahorn. Going by your logic you could say the bulls title teams played small ball because they didn't drop the ball in the post when in reality, they had a big team with Horace Grant at PF and Cartwright at Center.

We can just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[daslicer]

this place is gonna freak out when our draft pick is 6'4 again :lol

I'm already expecting that to happen knowing how obsessed the Spurs are with assembling a team filled with midgets.

[duncan2k5]

We don't have a PF on the roster really aside from maybe KBD who is a fringe rotation player at best. Not sure what you expect them to do right now. I'm sure this will be addressed in the off-season

Starting another big we don't have just to do it is dumb. We should be losing games anyway. Spurs got rid of every player you wanted them to last season and you're still complaining lol

Btw, who are all these contenders that play big? The Cavs have emerged because they drafted top tier talent and have an Allstar PG. It's not because they play big. It's because they lucked into drafting a generational talent in Mobley

Contenders are contenders because they have top end talent and a top 10 players on their team, not because they play big or whatever

So why has no contender EVER won with small ball? They're all big... The Grizzlies had the same roster last year, but they played a SF at PF and we're a bad team... They embraced playing big this year and are significantly better... The Cavs had those same point guard for years, and Jarret Allen last year... They started winning when they combined him with Mobley... Another big... So despite all the top pics they had for years, they never won until playing big

[duncan2k5]

Another thing to note, Grizz didn't become good "until they started playing twin towers." The Grizz are elite because Morant has taken a huge leap, Bane has too, and JJJ is healthy. Valancunias was their C with them before and their tall lineup wasn't winning shit. What a coincidence that all these teams also either have elite PGs or top 10 or MVP level guys on the team.

They were small... He was their center but they played small at PF...

[Leetonidas]

So why has no contender EVER won with small ball? They're all big... The Grizzlies had the same roster last year, but they played a SF at PF and we're a bad team... They embraced playing big this year and are significantly better... The Cavs had those same point guard for years, and Jarret Allen last year... They started winning when they combined him with Mobley... Another big... So despite all the top pics they had for years, they never won until playing big

Uh...the Warriors won with small ball in 2015. Bogut was injured most of that series. They were running KD at the 5 and Draymond at the 4 in 17/18, which is not big. The LeBron Cavs in 2016 won with 6'10" Love at C and and 6'8" Thompson at PF, again not big. the Bucks won with a "big" lineup but as i pointed out earlier it works because Lopez is an elite 3 point shooter. Even the 2014 Spurs and 2013 Heat were not big teams...

You guys really need to separate teams utilizing their size to their advantage and having skilled bigs that can shoot. Big ball on its own doesnt win anything. there's a reason all of the top teams i mentioned earlier dont run big ball and the only teams that do (Cavs, Grizz) have two bigs that can shoot well from distance (Mobley, JJJ). It's not about playing "big."

[duncan2k5]

top 4 teams in each conference

1. Miami - Bam/Tucker at C/PF (not big ball, Tucker is 6'5")
2. Bulls - Vuc/Demar at C/PF (not big ball, Demar is 6'6")
3. Cleveland Allen/Mobley at C/PF (big ball)
4. 76ers - Embiid/Harris at C/PF (I don't really consider Harris a "big" on O or D, only 6'7")

1. Suns - Ayton/Crowder at C/PF (not big ball, Crowder is 6'7")
2. Warriors - Looney/Green at C/PF (not big ball, Green is 6'5")
3. Grizzlies - Adams/JJJ at C/PF (big ball)
4. Jazz - Gobert/O'Neal at C/PF (not big, O'Neal is 6'5")


I could keep going but you get the point. Only two of these teams play "big" and most of them start an undersized player at PF :lol

It's not 2010 anymore guys. The days of two big teams are over unless one of them is an elite three point shooter

None of those teams are serious contenders... I'm talking about winning... Not simply making the playoffs...the minute those teams run into a big team in the playoffs, they will lose... It always happens... No team wins small... The trash ass Lakers won in the bubble because they were bigger than everyone else... The Bucks won because they were bigger... Every team wins a ring because they are bigger and better... The reason LeBron was able to come back vs the Warriors is because the Warriors bigs went down and the Cavs played big...

[duncan2k5]

I mean, the Heat literally won with Lebron playing almost exclusively PF (and back then that meant he often went against bigger players). We don't have to look to the Lakers to find an example of it.

This isn't true at all... The Lakers started AD at PF and Dwight/McGee at C

[Leetonidas]

None of those teams are serious contenders... I'm talking about winning... Not simply making the playoffs...the minute those teams run into a big team in the playoffs, they will lose... It always happens... No team wins small... The trash ass Lakers won in the bubble because they were bigger than everyone else... The Bucks won because they were bigger... Every team wins a ring because they are bigger and better... The reason LeBron was able to come back vs the Warriors is because the Warriors bigs went down and the Cavs played big...

Lmao...okay, so none of the top 8 teams are contenders? The suns that are blowing away the league with Crowder at PF arent contenders? The Heat arent contenders? :lmao :lmao you're not even worth talking to man, tf are you even babbling about at this point

[Leetonidas]

This isn't true at all... The Lakers started AD at PF and Dwight/McGee at C
How did that work out for them against PHX last season? How is it working out for them this year? :lmao :lmao

They won because they had the #2 GOAT and Anthony Davis at his peak. has nothing to do with size :lol plus that was a fake mickey mouse title anyway

[Leetonidas]

>point out numerous teams that have won the title playing small in the last decade, point out multiple teams this year playing small at the top of their conferences

tHoSe DonT cOuNt


:lmao

[duncan2k5]

They did it once without KD, playing 6’6” Draymond at center, and are poised for another run, also without KD.

He wasnt their center... They had Bogut... A legit 7 footer

[Leetonidas]

He wasnt their center... They had Bogut... A legit 7 footer

who only played a total of 74 minutes due to injury. Played 28 mins in game 1, 25 in Game 2, and 17 in Game 3 and didn't step on the court again after that. Warriors closing lineup was Curry/Klay/Barnes/Iggy/Green, none of them over 6'7. try again :lmao

If you're going to try and make a thread to prove a silly point, at least know wtf you're talking about beforehand

[R. DeMurre]

People still seem confused about the term "small ball". It's not about height (length/strength often matter more) so much as skillset. Unless you have a superstar or star small guard, nobody wants to be small anywhere. They want to be big, versatile and skilled. There's just a dearth of quality modern fours to make these lineups go.



I agree, but maybe it's not so much that people are confused, but the term itself is fuzzy & poorly defined. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is arguing that Dallas was playing "small ball" with Dirk simply because he took a bunch of outside shots. The guy was 7', so regardless of his skillset, it's not small ball. There is agreement that the '07 Golden State team who upset Dallas in the playoffs was a small ball squad because they successfully used the 6'8" Stephen Jackson to guard Dirk, and it worked. The thing people forget though, is Golden State's cinderella run was over in the next round against a Utah team that played a traditionally sized line up. I think way too much is made of the modern day Warriors use of Draymond as an undersized defender and attributing their success to it. The reason they're great is they have two all time great shooters shooting at a high clip from three and hitting-- 40+% of the time. When the Rockets tried the same thing with Harden/Gordon/Paul-- a bunch of guys shooting in the 35-37% range-- it didn't yield the same results.

And it's true that length/strength matter as much as height. Some people call Lebron's Miami team "small ball" when they put Bosh & LeBron at C & PF, which I think is silly: Bosh at 6'11 + Lebron at 6'9" 260+lbs are anything but "small."

[rankingtear]

He literally thinks it means putting smaller players to play positions that aren't their natural position... No small ball team has ever won a ring... Matter of fact, they all were bigger than average teams...

Before this era, small ball was intiguing because not many bigs shot threes very well, so u had to put a smaller player... In this era where there's more space, and the rules are different, small ball gets punished because the best teams play big... Bucks are HUGE... The Cavs sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Grizzlies sucked until they started playing their twin towers... Now they're a really good team... Even Curry's warriors were on the bigger side when they won rings...

We need to start another actual big player longside Poetl... Bring either either kedlon or Doug off the bench... Kelson is NOT a pf... He is and always has been a SG/SF... His strength is rendered useless against ppl bigger than him... When he plays against SF he can body them inside, and he can still keep up with them on defense...

Big teams win... Cut the small ball shit

Rewatch the MEM play in before KJ gets subbed out and tell me he can keep up with wings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AypJJx8LbGo

[Drom John]

My first team was the Bullets and chronologically after Gus Johnson, my favorite player was Wes Unseld, 6'7" HOF center, with one ring, and three finals losses.

[Dex]

He wasnt their center... They had Bogut... A legit 7 footer

Bogut only played 23.6 MPG that year...Draymond played 31.5.

It got even lower in the playoffs. In the Finals, Bogut only played 18.4 MPG while Draymond played 37.0.

Bogut was a legit 7 footer...who spent most of his time watching from the bench.

[daslicer]

Bogut only played 23.6 MPG that year...Draymond played 31.5.

It got even lower in the playoffs. In the Finals, Bogut only played 18.4 MPG while Draymond played 37.0.

Bogut was a legit 7 footer...who spent most of his time watching from the bench.

Did Draymond play 31 minutes at center? The answer to the question is no. Warriors during the playoffs had Bogut primarily playing center and then the minutes split with Ezeli and Speights playing center.

[Leetonidas]

Who cares who played at C anyway. The Spurs have a 7 footer at C now. The point is that teams with "undersized" PFs are fairly normal now. So again the issue isn't the Spurs size it's the Spurs talent at the position. Having KJ and McD as your two forwards would still be horrible on D if even if they were both 6'9

[Proxy]

should probably nab one of those franchise big men you hear so little about

[daslicer]

Who cares who played at C anyway. The Spurs have a 7 footer at C now. The point is that teams with "undersized" PFs are fairly normal now. So again the issue isn't the Spurs size it's the Spurs talent at the position. Having KJ and McD as your two forwards would still be horrible on D if even if they were both 6'9

You are deflecting since your original point in which you were implying that Draymond was playing center for large stretches for the Warriors. I corrected you that he wasn't.

The problem with the Spurs is Keldon is grossly undersized to be a PF which makes him a defensive liability at that spot. He looks like he's 6'5 at best. I can't think of a team currently in the league that has 6'5 PF.

[Leetonidas]

You are deflecting since your original point in which you were implying that Draymond was playing center for large stretches for the Warriors. I corrected you that he wasn't.

The problem with the Spurs is Keldon is grossly undersized to be a PF which makes him a defensive liability at that spot. He looks like he's 6'5 at best. I can't think of a team currently in the league that has 6'5 PF.
Uh but you never proved that point tho. The Warriors closing lineup had Dray at C and iguodala at PF. This was the original "death lineup" and it was dominant. Festus Ezeli played 50 total mins in that 2015 finals series. Bogut played 74. Iggy and Green played 222 minutes. That large enough stretch for you? How were you correcting me again?:lol

[daslicer]

Uh but you never proved that point tho. The Warriors closing lineup had Dray at C and iguodala at PF. This was the original "death lineup" and it was dominant. Festus Ezeli played 50 total mins in that 2015 finals series. Bogut played 74. Iggy and Green played 222 minutes. That large enough stretch for you? How were you correcting me again?:lol

:lol Did Draymond play the majority of minutes at center for a full a season and in every round in the playoff? GTFO you are just bringing up the 2015 finals. You can get away with being undersized for a series but not the whole entire playoffs.

[daslicer]

On a sidenote it's weird to see a lot of Spurs fans infatuated with small ball since all the title teams were not small defensively. Especially the first 3 title teams with the Duncan-Robinson set up and then Duncan-Nazr. Even the last title team had the Duncan-Splitter setup and then Duncan-Diaw set up depending on matchups which not even small either.

[John B]

^ DRob only has 2 titles.

Small ball is not just the height, but for of the PF/ C having guard skills, able to run and shoot outside. Ideally you like big men 6’9” PF with 7’ wingspan who can rimrun and shoot the 3. Nowadays, that’s becoming common. But 10-15 years ago, a big man who can run was rare in the exception on DRob, Garnett, C-Webb, etc. Hence, they try to get away with smaller lineup. I see smallball as more of a type of play, not height. If you can get 7 footers with guard skills and not slow, then better.

[daslicer]

^ DRob only has 2 titles.

Small ball is not just the height, but for of the PF/ C having guard skills, able to run and shoot outside. Ideally you like big men 6’9” PF with 7’ wingspan who can rimrun and shoot the 3. Nowadays, that’s becoming common. But 10-15 years ago, a big man who can run was rare in the exception on DRob, Garnett, C-Webb, etc. Hence, they try to get away with smaller lineup. I see smallball as more of a type of play, not height. If you can get 7 footers with guard skills and not slow, then better.

I didn't say he had 3 titles. If your read my post, I said this specifically "Especially the first 3 title teams with the Duncan-Robinson set up and then Duncan-Nazr." Maybe it wasn't clear what I was saying which is Drob-Duncan and Duncan-Nazr were twin tower lineups that won 3 titles. I'm fine with a quick athletic guy playing PF that is 6'9. The spurs don't need a twin tower line up but what drives me nuts is how undersized Keldon is. He looks like he's 6'5 at best and we are stuck with him playing PF. It's ok right now since the Spurs have no championship aspirations.

[Leetonidas]

:lol Did Draymond play the majority of minutes at center for a full a season and in every round in the playoff? GTFO you are just bringing up the 2015 finals. You can get away with being undersized for a series but not the whole entire playoffs.

:lol still can't dispute that the Warriors won the title with a predominantly small lineup and trying to move the goalposts now

[Joseph Kony]

Ignoring the glaring general inaccuracy of a lot of the op's assertions, do we even have an actual PF on the roster to play? :lol i agree that playing Keldon at the 4 is dumb but what is the alternative, start KBD or Cacok?

[rankingtear]

You are deflecting since your original point in which you were implying that Draymond was playing center for large stretches for the Warriors. I corrected you that he wasn't.

The problem with the Spurs is Keldon is grossly undersized to be a PF which makes him a defensive liability at that spot. He looks like he's 6'5 at best. I can't think of a team currently in the league that has 6'5 PF.

Well according to the data:

KJ is listed at 6'6 now on NBA.com.

6'6 or shorter: UTA (3), MIA (1), PHX (1), HOU (15), CHI (2), POR (10) , GS (2).

[Dejounte]

KJ is clearly taller than DJ by more than an inch and looks to be the same height as Draymond. How can he be 6’5” at best? Are we relying on old measurements again?

[Proxy]

who cares, develop the best talent and give them minutes. Is the team trying to suddenly make the playoffs?

[Fusternino]

Didn't the league start forcing players to list their height in just socks and not shoes? KJ has the height necessary to play the 3.

[The Truth #6]

should probably nab one of those franchise big men you hear so little about

Ideally two, then we can get back to normal!

[Sugus]

who cares, develop the best talent and give them minutes. Is the team trying to suddenly make the playoffs?

On a vacuum, I agree with you and the energy of your post. Being inadequate at PF puts the Spurs in a lot of losing positions, which is perfect for the short-term tank. The issue to me, is how the Spurs approach Keldon (and the starting PF position as a whole) moving forward - do they recognize Keldon's inadequacy, and draft or trade for adequate talent to fill that hole, or will they double down on him as "PF of the future" and lock him up to a sizeable contract? It's his FA that worries me the most, not Lonnie's and not Devin's, tbh... It'll signal a decisive longer-term view from the FO rather than the immediate "just play him there since we have no other options" plan Pop is going with right now.

Of course, drafting a top-talent PF prospect could be an easy solve for this too. But I'm wary of assuming the Spurs will draft for height, after all these drafts, and especially Primo... I'm fine with BPA, even if it's a guard, but the above has to be taken into account in such a scenario, IMO.

[Proxy]

On a vacuum, I agree with you and the energy of your post. Being inadequate at PF puts the Spurs in a lot of losing positions, which is perfect for the short-term tank. The issue to me, is how the Spurs approach Keldon (and the starting PF position as a whole) moving forward - do they recognize Keldon's inadequacy, and draft or trade for adequate talent to fill that hole, or will they double down on him as "PF of the future" and lock him up to a sizeable contract? It's his FA that worries me the most, not Lonnie's and not Devin's, tbh... It'll signal a decisive longer-term view from the FO rather than the immediate "just play him there since we have no other options" plan Pop is going with right now.

Of course, drafting a top-talent PF prospect could be an easy solve for this too. But I'm wary of assuming the Spurs will draft for height, after all these drafts, and especially Primo... I'm fine with BPA, even if it's a guard, but the above has to be taken into account in such a scenario, IMO.

good points, I’m optimistic the FO would recognize how to utilize Keldon at that point after this year’s trade deadline. Decision to trade Derrick and Bryn so Primo gets his rookie minutes… that’s a rare Georgie/Kawhi kind of decision. I like Keldon… hopefully, if the team becomes elite soon, he’s playing a Malik type of role for the team at the very least. No one wants to see another turd towers situation. I doubt we will, and it seems way, way too reactionary to see this current team make up and jump to the conclusion that the coaching staff is committed to KJ and Jakob as the SL frontcourt for hypothetical future scenarios

[Gagnrath]

Who cares who played at C anyway. The Spurs have a 7 footer at C now. The point is that teams with "undersized" PFs are fairly normal now. So again the issue isn't the Spurs size it's the Spurs talent at the position. Having KJ and McD as your two forwards would still be horrible on D if even if they were both 6'9

Thing is Keldon while not exactly a good defender of small forwards is adequate, where as larger players are both shoot over and can over power him. Smaller players may be able to beat him with speed but not having the option to push him around or ignore him forces tougher shots. The biggest issue really seems to be second chance shots. I am not saying that we need him to be Barkley or Rodman, but a starting power forward should be getting 8+ rebounds per game. Keldon averages slightly under 6 for his career which is average for a SF not great. In all honesty the guy should be playing a lower usage version of LeBron in Cleveland firing 3s and when getting smothered on the line bashing his way to the rim. Expecting lots of ball handling and more than adequate defense is a bit much. Having a 7'ish center on the low block and a 6'8"+ power forward who spends his time on the elbows makes sense. Having each player able to switch to the next spot up or down for a few possessions and not be completely out of place makes sense. Expecting a player who isn't above average for the league skill wise or athletics wise to play constantly out of position is asking for problems.

That's also infuriating to me they are taking a player who is obviously competitive minded, seems to have pretty good skill set for small forward, and has been being asked to work out of position for the last two years which is hurting the team, and the player. If they had a really high end small forward and were forcing a talented player down a spot or were covering for injury but that's not the case the team management seems to have just decided that they would have a number of centers who can't move down to PF, a whole bunch of guards a couple of them might be able to move to SF for some time and maybe a game or two for injury reasons but not regularly and a couple of back-up or situation players at the forward positions.

[TD 21]

I agree, but maybe it's not so much that people are confused, but the term itself is fuzzy & poorly defined. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is arguing that Dallas was playing "small ball" with Dirk simply because he took a bunch of outside shots. The guy was 7', so regardless of his skillset, it's not small ball. There is agreement that the '07 Golden State team who upset Dallas in the playoffs was a small ball squad because they successfully used the 6'8" Stephen Jackson to guard Dirk, and it worked. The thing people forget though, is Golden State's cinderella run was over in the next round against a Utah team that played a traditionally sized line up. I think way too much is made of the modern day Warriors use of Draymond as an undersized defender and attributing their success to it. The reason they're great is they have two all time great shooters shooting at a high clip from three and hitting-- 40+% of the time. When the Rockets tried the same thing with Harden/Gordon/Paul-- a bunch of guys shooting in the 35-37% range-- it didn't yield the same results.

And it's true that length/strength matter as much as height. Some people call Lebron's Miami team "small ball" when they put Bosh & LeBron at C & PF, which I think is silly: Bosh at 6'11 + Lebron at 6'9" 260+lbs are anything but "small."

True.

Again, it's not about height. Barkley, Rodman, Millsap, Williamson, etc. were/are all sub 6'8'' 4s who were/are bigs. Jackson was a wing because he played in an era where playing two big lineups was still the norm.

Green has had greater impact than the overrated Thompson.

It might have had Paul not injured his hamstring (granted, had Iguodala been healthy, the Rockets might not have had the Warriors down 3-2 to begin with).

[R. DeMurre]

Those two early 70s Knicks teams that won championships started 6'9" Willis Reed at center, 6'6" Dave Debusschere at PF, and 6'5" Bill Bradley at SF, and that was in an era dominated by centers...

[emanueldavidginobili]

Those two early 70s Knicks teams that won championships started 6'9" Willis Reed at center, 6'6" Dave Debusschere at PF, and 6'5" Bill Bradley at SF, and that was in an era dominated by centers...
Those three are in the HOF and two of them made the 75th anniversary team. Not bad talent to compensate their heights.