Dejounte Murray Trade Rumors: Will He Be Traded to the Atlanta Hawks?

[jjspur]

Right? I mean I’m not completely against trading DJ but Gallo + picks is a joke to me.

I'm not against trading Maurry at the peak of his value, but I'm absolutely positive the spurs could get a better deal from almost any other NBA team. You're right that deal is a joke. Its just a bad one. The spurs can do better.

[KingKev]

if the Spurs want as many picks as possible in the 2023 draft they can just take on bad contracts and move J-Rich and voila they got 3 picks

We literally could take in 30-50mm in dead money if you move JRich, McBooger and Zollins. Getting multiple firsts next year doesn’t help you when you help ATL become a top 6 team.

[Payote75]

I maybe again wearing spurs colored glasses but aren't we square I'm the middle of a rebuild. We have picks coming and have assets to improve this team right now by a lot. We still have Richardson poetrl mcnuggets Langford all can be turned to assets and if you must trade Murray get a young player or two back to facilitate the rebuild. Let's not leave out the cap space too
So there's no sense in starting over when you more than half way down the path.

[mo7888]

if the Spurs want as many picks as possible in the 2023 draft they can just take on bad contracts and move J-Rich and voila they got 3 picks

Taking bad contracts won't get you top 6 picks though and thays what we should strive for if we move Murray and Jak. The only guys we have that might get is picks in that range are DJ and maybe KJ I'd think.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Damn I’ll be upset if DJ is traded this guy has embodied the Spurs culture. I doubt they trade him tbh. He’s only 25 we need an older solid player like him compared to the younger guys and hope one of the younger guys take a huge leap. If we get picks for DJ it’s a small chance any of the players we draft end up as good as him. He’s going to get even better in the next year or two and hit his absolute prime

[spurraider21]

trading murray is bad juju tbh... unless its an absolute godfather offer you cant refuse.

all star caliber guy on a solid contract, who has leadership skills, really wants to be here, etc. he's not good enough to be "off limits" but its gotta be an above market offer imo, and none of these hawks deals meet that criteria

[lmbebo]

One of the local reports (maybe posted before) said it was down to Pop to make the final decision

[emanueldavidginobili]

But that’s even if he wants to stay here. He has been adamant on wanting to be a Spur but he’s also been adamant on wanting to win and compete for a ring, and with this team it looks like that feat is out of his prime timeline.

[Excessive Egotist]

If reports are correct and Collins is not in the deal, the best we're hoping for is Gallo, Jalen Johnson, both '23 picks, and '25 for Murray and Langford.

[RC_Drunkford]

Taking bad contracts won't get you top 6 picks though and thays what we should strive for if we move Murray and Jak. The only guys we have that might get is picks in that range are DJ and maybe KJ I'd think.

neither would 3 Atlanta Hawks picks tbh. Which team could we trade him to that guarantees us a top 6 pick in the 2023 draft?

[lmbebo]

https://twitter.com/jeffgspurszone/status/1541536590211813378?s=21&t=FsE4gSVKwSgy8qgxUMSIWQ

never mind its a retweet/rehash of Zack Klein

[Excessive Egotist]

I'd like this better as three team, with Collins going to Charlotte in exchange for Hornets lifting their pick protections.

[RC_Drunkford]

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[mo7888]

neither would 3 Atlanta Hawks picks tbh. Which team could we trade him to that guarantees us a top 6 pick in the 2023 draft?

I don't disagree... Although I think it's in our best interest to move DJ and try to get two top 6 picks in this draft I don't subscribe to trading him for middling picks. I've been consistent in saying I'd expect a 3rd team to be added that gives up an unprotected 1st so we have two bites at the proverbial top 6 apple. Its Atlantas job to find that pick..

[RC_Drunkford]

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[Ariel]

If reports are correct and Collins is not in the deal, the best we're hoping for is Gallo, Jalen Johnson, both '23 picks, and '25 for Murray and Langford.
Still not good enough. I would expect Collins to be involved, just not with the Spurs as a final destination. He HAS TO BE, or else the return is just ridiculous. It's bad already, but on those terms... seems like we're trying to compensate them for being robbed on the Luka trade.

[stephen jackson]

Trade keldon is who we should be trading he doesn’t fit with sochan and vasel

[RC_Drunkford]

I don't disagree... Although I think it's in our best interest to move DJ and try to get two top 6 picks in this draft I don't subscribe to trading him for middling picks. I've been consistent in saying I'd expect a 3rd team to be added that gives up an unprotected 1st so we have two bites at the proverbial top 6 apple. Its Atlantas job to find that pick..

then tell me who are those teams? Cause I don't see the Rockets, OKC, Magic, Pistons, Pacers or Kings giving us a pick just because we need a top 6 pick. Maybe we should just give them Keldon while we're having a fire sale

[mo7888]

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So Harris confirmed its been resurrected with Gallo. Is that the 1st confirmation from our side?

[Excessive Egotist]

Still not good enough. I would expect Collins to be involved, just not with the Spurs as a final destination. He HAS TO BE, or else the return is just ridiculous. It's bad already, but on those terms... seems like we're trying to compensate them for being robbed on the Luka trade.

Murray and Langford to Hawks
Hayward, Johnson, Gallo, and 3 ATL picks, 1 Charlotte pick, and Charlotte lifts protections on their '23. Gallo is waived immediately.
Collins and McDermott to Hornets.

[mo7888]

then tell me who are those teams? Cause I don't see the Rockets, OKC, Magic, Pistons, Pacers or Kings giving us a pick just because we need a top 6 pick. Maybe we should just give them Keldon while we're having a fire sale

MAYBE the Kings (they are the Kings remember) bit none of the rest are on the table I wouldn't think. I think you're looking at teams who'll be projected to be mid to late lottery that could gall with an injury or slump. That would include NY...Portland...and to a lesser degree Atlanta itself depending on what they have to give up outside of Gallo.

[RC_Drunkford]

So Harris confirmed its been resurrected with Gallo. Is that the 1st confirmation from our side?

yes

[CGD]

Still not good enough. I would expect Collins to be involved, just not with the Spurs as a final destination. He HAS TO BE, or else the return is just ridiculous. It's bad already, but on those terms... seems like we're trying to compensate them for being robbed on the Luka trade.

Come on Sacramento!

[RC_Drunkford]

MAYBE the Kings (they are the Kings remember) bit none of the rest are on the table I wouldn't think. I think you're looking at teams who'll be projected to be mid to late lottery that could gall with an injury or slump. That would include NY...Portland...and to a lesser degree Atlanta itself depending on what they have to give up outside of Gallo.

yeah right Atlanta with DJ and Trae Young will get us a top 6 pick :lmao

[BacktoBasics]

So Harris confirmed its been resurrected with Gallo. Is that the 1st confirmation from our side?

I think its confirmation that there’s Twitter buzz. I believe there was a conversation on draft day. I don’t believe this current shit.

At least that Matthew guy checked that dude a little.

[CGD]

So Harris confirmed its been resurrected with Gallo. Is that the 1st confirmation from our side?

I’ve not lived in SA in a while. How plugged in is Harris these days?

[BacktoBasics]

None of those pics sound lottery bound.

[NickiRasgo]

Doesn't make sense if Spurs letting the league known that they're prepping for 2023 NBA Draft, other teams will:

1. probably asking more now once the Spurs are looking to trade their players for a 2023 pick/s
2. be hesitant to making a trade with Spurs because of how they're interested unless that team looking to trade is really desperate
3. make a run or be intrigued with 2023 Draft Class as well

This is assuming if the reports or rumors are true.

[mo7888]

yeah right Atlanta with DJ and Trae Young will get us a top 6 pick :lmao

I didn't say that...I said it'd give us a shot to get into the mid to late lottery. DJ isn't elevating that team unless they can add another player to he and Trae...maybe they can but wouldn't have much left to offer after they acquire DJ...

A trade that gives NY cap space for their unprotected 1st will still require assets from Atlanta + some of our cap space to get it done...so if we end up with the NY and Atl unprotected picks for 2023 along with a couple protected future firsts from Atlanta is a good deal for this franchise. It give us an opportunity to create a championship window down the road and we don't have a pathway to get there as presently constructed.

[CGD]

If I’m a Knick fan I would be absolutely distraught that my team is pursuing Brunson over DJM right now.

[mo7888]

I’ve not lived in SA in a while. How plugged in is Harris these days?

No clue..

[mo7888]

I’ve not lived in SA in a while. How plugged in is Harris these days?

I'd really like to hear timvp's take...his sources have been good as of late..

[RC_Drunkford]

I didn't say that...I said it'd give us a shot to get into the mid to late lottery. DJ isn't elevating that team unless they can add another player to he and Trae...maybe they can but wouldn't have much left to offer after they acquire DJ...

A trade that gives NY cap space for their unprotected 1st will still require assets from Atlanta + some of our cap space to get it done...so if we end up with the NY and Atl unprotected picks for 2023 along with a couple protected future firsts from Atlanta is a good deal for this franchise. It give us an opportunity to create a championship window down the road and we don't have a pathway to get there as presently constructed.

what do you want to do with mid lottery picks? I thought we need a franchise player in the top 6? It would not even be guaranteed that the Spurs get into the top 6 unless they tank on purpose

[mo7888]

If I’m a Knick fan I would be absolutely distraught that my team is pursuing Brunson over DJM right now.

Totally agree

[BacktoBasics]

No way this level headed overly pragmatic front office attempts to stock pile picks believing that they can will their way to the 1st pick.

No amount of draft capital will be enough to trade for that 1st pick either.

[mo7888]

what do you want to do with mid lottery picks? I thought we need a franchise player in the top 6? It would not even be guaranteed that the Spurs get into the top 6 unless they tank on purpose

Mid lottery picks just increase your chance of getting a high pick because you have more balls in the lottery... that plus our own pick would give us a decent chance to move one of them up.

[slick'81]

what do you want to do with mid lottery picks? I thought we need a franchise player in the top 6? It would not even be guaranteed that the Spurs get into the top 6 unless they tank on purpose


yea that sounds retarded

[mo7888]

No way this level headed overly pragmatic front office attempts to stock pile picks believing that they can will their way to the 1st pick.

No amount of draft capital will be enough to trade for that 1st pick either.

Not one person is talking about trading for the #1 pick after the lottery....it's all about increasing our chances of drawing the #1 pick in the lottery..

[offset formation]

Right? I mean I’m not completely against trading DJ but Gallo + picks is a joke to me.

If anyone recalls, I said on draft night that given the following information: <<PATFO wants Primo running point, we drafted 2 more guards, both ball heavy in the FIRST round, and the #9 pick is also extremely efficient running the offense and ball handling at the top of the key>>

that this team was setting itself up for multiple trades or transactions at the guard position, including likely Murray.

Yet, I was told repeatedly that everything was copacetic and we were fine having like 8 guards on the roster because some would play wing. Yet neither one of the new draftees is above 6'5" in shoes. Well, although nothing has happened yet, but my intuition is looking to be right.

[Ice009]

Doubt it. I'm sure Spurs have talked to DJ and probably got his input. They know they are not near contending and probably asked him if he wanted to continue on or be traded with a chance to compete. I don't think they'd cut ties just because he got emotional during a game

What are the incidents that people have mentioned? I don't remember them.

[KingKev]

I think its confirmation that there’s Twitter buzz. I believe there was a conversation on draft day. I don’t believe this current shit.

At least that Matthew guy checked that dude a little.

Seriously.

That screams of twitter fingers thinking Pop still has full control on his way out. There was a time that may have been the case and even at that time it wouldn’t be made public that Pop was sitting there contemplating a stamp of approval.

Sounds like pure speculation from someone with no real insight.

[Robz4000]

If I’m a Knick fan I would be absolutely distraught that my team is pursuing Brunson over DJM right now.


Totally agree

Knicks would have to give up assets to get Murray while they can sign Brunson after their draft night trades becomes official.

[BacktoBasics]

Not one person is talking about trading for the #1 pick after the lottery....it's all about increasing our chances of drawing the #1 pick in the lottery..

Our FO has never shown an inkling to trade proven all star talent for better “odds”.

[Ice009]

Also, how come we only have one minutes to do edits on the message board?

[mo7888]

Our FO has never shown an inkling to trade proven all star talent for better “odds”.

Our FO has never been in a position where their best player simultaneously has real value and an inability to take this team to a championship level.

[AFBlue]

Our FO has never been in a position where their best player simultaneously has real value and an inability to take this team to a championship level.

This.

[Dejounte]

Our FO has never been in a position where their best player simultaneously has real value and an inability to take this team to a championship level.

This is absurdly putting everything on DJ’s shoulders as if the players around him has no bearing on whether the team is successful or not.

[Degoat]

One major detail that I dont think people have mentioned is the hawks new GM is Landry Fields who was a scout and I think GM for the Austin Spurs.

[DAF86]

This would be such an anti-Spur move that I would be shocked if it goes through.

If the Spurs trade Murray it will be to go into a full blown rebuild. Where does Pop fit in that? I don't see the old man accepting to keep working just to lose on purpose.

[KingKev]

Our FO has never been in a position where their best player simultaneously has real value and an inability to take this team to a championship level.


This.

Not really DJ’s fault the FO hasn’t surrounded him with better players. DJ could is a leader and do it all player perfect for the as the 2nd or 3rd option in a more talented team. Get him more talent.

[Russ]

If anyone recalls, I said on draft night that given the following information: <<PATFO wants Primo running point, we drafted 2 more guards, both ball heavy in the FIRST round, and the #9 pick is also extremely efficient running the offense and ball handling at the top of the key>>

that this team was setting itself up for multiple trades or transactions at the guard position, including likely Murray.

Yet, I was told repeatedly that everything was copacetic and we were fine having like 8 guards on the roster because some would play wing. Yet neither one of the new draftees is above 6'5" in shoes. Well, although nothing has happened yet, but my intuition is looking to be right.

On the other hand GSW won the title with a starting lineup of 6'2", 6'6", 6'6", 6'7" and 6'8". But they all could pass.

Don't forget the "Beautiful Game."

[BacktoBasics]

Our FO has never been in a position where their best player simultaneously has real value and an inability to take this team to a championship level.

He did more with less this season. You add talent to that. Not dump him. It’s not like we’re circling the drain. We have strong up and coming talent this is slowly beginning to materialize

[rjv]

I’ve not lived in SA in a while. How plugged in is Harris these days?

He’s clueless. Gets a lot of info from tertiary sources. Spends most of his broadcasts offering his banal “Don’s Takes”.

[tim_duncan_fan]

This is absurdly putting everything on DJ’s shoulders as if the players around him has no bearing on whether the team is successful or not.

I think mo7888 is saying Dejounte is not a top-guy-on-the-team kind of player; as in even if we had a 2nd banana, we would just have two 2nd bananas.

[rascal]

I am sure this is what was said about jokic, kawhi, Giannias, and others. the only #1 pick that jump to mind that is considered franchise is embid. You have Ja and luka that were top 3. That still is 3 top 3 vs 3 not top 3. btw I dont consider durant and lehype as they are old. if you do that you also have to include curry .

There will be other top players in the top few picks just like this draft went 7 deep in talent and then a fall off.

[Rito3d30]

Young and Murray had just followed each other on twitter

[rascal]

If I’m a Knick fan I would be absolutely distraught that my team is pursuing Brunson over DJM right now.

Most Knick fans want Brunson over Murray.

[CGD]

Most Knick fans want Brunson over Murray.

Nope. Have you been on Knicks twitter or Reddit recently?

[rascal]

Nope. Have you been on Knicks twitter or Reddit recently?

Went on Locked on knicks and both of those guys didn't want Murray saying he couldn't shoot the 3 and was not as good a fit.

[slick'81]

Young and Murray had just followed each other on twitter

they have the same agent. Not some earth shattering news

[mo7888]

This is absurdly putting everything on DJ’s shoulders as if the players around him has no bearing on whether the team is successful or not.

Not remotely... DJ is a very good player and it's not his fault that the team can't put 2 better players alongside him to be able to elevate this team. He's not good enough to the the main guy and we can't get a main guy that fits his timeline...nobody is suggesting thays his fault.

[Joseph Kony]

always interesting reading other team's forums. the Hawks fans seem to think this is a done deal

[mo7888]

Not really DJ’s fault the FO hasn’t surrounded him with better players. DJ could is a leader and do it all player perfect for the as the 2nd or 3rd option in a more talented team. Get him more talent.

I don't disagree and I just made a similar argument on here..

[Dejounte]

I think mo7888 is saying Dejounte is not a top-guy-on-the-team kind of player; as in even if we had a 2nd banana, we would just have two 2nd bananas.

The notion that you can’t get a top banana if you have a second banana already is simply ridiculous. Middleton was there before Giannis. Bam was there before Butler. Anybody could have been there before Jokic. You don’t need to count on having a shitty team with no building block to land your top tier player.

[mo7888]

He did more with less this season. You add talent to that. Not dump him. It’s not like we’re circling the drain. We have strong up and coming talent this is slowly beginning to materialize

Yea...that was Plan A I'd guess but we couldn't find away to add 2 better players to this roster....that leaves us with 2 options 1) max him and pay for the privilege of being a perpetual play-in team or 2) cash in on his value to give us a shot at getting an elite talent to build around.

[offset formation]

On the other hand GSW won the title with a starting lineup of 6'2", 6'6", 6'6", 6'7" and 6'8". But they all could pass.

Don't forget the "Beautiful Game."

That only flies because the 6'2" guy is the best shooter to ever lace them up, and they are collectively some of the best passers in the game.

If we have a surefire HOF running point and several good passers ans shooters surrounding him, that overcomes any potential defensive liabilities, then sign me up for small ball

[mo7888]

The notion that you can’t get a top banana if you have a second banana already is simply ridiculous. Middleton was there before Giannis. Bam was there before Butler. Anybody could have been there before Jokic. You don’t need to count on having a shitty team with no building block to land your top tier player.

I'm not saying teams can't add a top banana to a team with a 2nd banana... I'm saying there's no deal on the horizon to do that in this scenario so we have two options 1) max him and pay for the privilege of being a perpetual play-in team or 2) cash in on his value to give us a shot at getting an elite talent to build around.

[Dejounte]

I'm not saying teams can't add a top banana to a team with a 2nd banana... I'm saying there's no deal on the horizon to do that in this scenario so we have two options 1) max him and pay for the privilege of being a perpetual play-in team or 2) cash in on his value to give us a shot at getting an elite talent to build around.

Eh, simply disagree that there’s no deal on the horizon. There’s enough talent on the team to build their value if a trade needs to happen. You’re looking at things too much in a vacuum. This isn’t the last offseason to do anything. There’s next offseason too. The summer hasn’t even ended. The roster is currently full and there’s about 90% chance a deal IS going to happen (speaking as though a Murray deal isn’t happening).

[Degoat]

always interesting reading other team's forums. the Hawks fans seem to think this is a done deal

Theyre gonna go absolutely bananas if the trade doesn’t happen lmao they’re desperate

[Dejounte]

Hell, just before this past season everyone thought Murray, Poeltl, and White had zero value and yet their value is high now.

This is looking too much at things in a vacuum.

[Mr. Body]

always interesting reading other team's forums. the Hawks fans seem to think this is a done deal

Spurs fans think this is a done deal.

[Dejounte]

This is the FIRST season DJ formally established himself as a building block for the Spurs, and it is dumb to think they won’t even attempt ONE OFFSEASON to add more pieces next to him and see where this thing goes.

People are acting like it’s been several seasons with DJ. :lmao :lmao

[objective]

Murray's numbers went up in a significant way when White was traded. Based on White's production the Spurs should have gone in the toilet but they kept winning at better than expected clip

What kind of numbers will be put up being the man did a whole season. With a better Vassell and Primo and a PF for 15-25 minutes a game who is over 6-6. And Zollins the whole year instead of half the year with Eubanks.

Murray's numbers will go up, with or without Ayton or a John Collins. His value will go up by the trade deadline.

But to sell him for 2 atl picks in the 20s and a lotto protected Charlotte pick or whatever it is, and eating Gallo, that is straight trash and it's not edge lord to say so.

And to see that the deal may have gotten worse, that is: no Collins, we want Gallo instead AND his guarantee goes UP?!? This is like paying Toronto to take 5 million and Danny Green. These rumors get worse.

Trade Murray, fine, but get a good deal. He's not pulling a Kawhi and hiding when he's expiring

[mo7888]

Eh, simply disagree that there’s no deal on the horizon. There’s enough talent on the team to build their value if a trade needs to happen. You’re looking at things too much in a vacuum. This isn’t the last offseason to do anything. There’s next offseason too. The summer hasn’t even ended. The roster is currently full and there’s about 90% chance a deal IS going to happen (speaking as though a Murray deal isn’t happening).


Next offseason his value will be lower than it is now because he'll be on the last year of his contract and likely won't be an allstar this year. I am looking at in a vacuum though because we all are...none of his have true inside info on what the FO tried to do or is even trying to do. We all base our opinions on our perceived premise and go from there. My premise is that they tried to add a higher level talent to play alongside DJ (I believe that talent was Zach Lavine) and when it became clear that wasn't going to happen then they did their due diligence on who might be available by trade this offseason and found exactly no one. From there I follow the logical path.... if you can't add better players to DJ and he's at or near peak value you have the two choices I listed above. Logically if there's no way to add the players you need to compete for championships then you have to find other paths to get there and since we are entering a draft like we haven't seen in some time with a generational talent then that path at least has a chance to pan out as opposed to our current path. It's just logical and pragmatic nothing more and this FO has always seemed to lean in to pragmatic decisions....

That's where I'm coming from....and it's totally cool if you or anyone else here sees it differently... my preferred path was always to build around DJ but, I've come to believe that's not possible anymore so...I have to consider other alternatives ...it's not personal against DJ because I think he's a very good player and has handled his business very professionally. You may see a path to add a better player to play alongside him....I don't think that deal's out there but I'm all ears if you can't paint that path in a picture...

[Mr. Body]

People fretting over details of any trade should note that, if any of these rumors are true, the Spurs have rejected several scenarios Atlanta has come up with. So the notion that they'll go cheap on getting rid of Murray is likely not true.

[rascal]

Murray's numbers went up in a significant way when White was traded. Based on White's production the Spurs should have gone in the toilet but they kept winning at better than expected clip

What kind of numbers will be put up being the man did a whole season. With a better Vassell and Primo and a PF for 15-25 minutes a game who is over 6-6. And Zollins the whole year instead of half the year with Eubanks.

Murray's numbers will go up, with or without Ayton or a John Collins. His value will go up by the trade deadline.

But to sell him for 2 atl picks in the 20s and a lotto protected Charlotte pick or whatever it is, and eating Gallo, that is straight trash and it's not edge lord to say so.

And to see that the deal may have gotten worse, that is: no Collins, we want Gallo instead AND his guarantee goes UP?!? This is like paying Toronto to take 5 million and Danny Green. These rumors get worse.

Trade Murray, fine, but get a good deal. He's not pulling a Kawhi and hiding when he's expiring

That's because in the last three months of the season teams were beginning to tank. Spurs played a lot of tanking teams in the last two months of the season and passed some teams in the standings and hurt their draft position.

[mo7888]

Next offseason his value will be lower than it is now because he'll be on the last year of his contract and likely won't be an allstar this year. I am looking at in a vacuum though because we all are...none of his have true inside info on what the FO tried to do or is even trying to do. We all base our opinions on our perceived premise and go from there. My premise is that they tried to add a higher level talent to play alongside DJ (I believe that talent was Zach Lavine) and when it became clear that wasn't going to happen then they did their due diligence on who might be available by trade this offseason and found exactly no one. From there I follow the logical path.... if you can't add better players to DJ and he's at or near peak value you have the two choices I listed above. Logically if there's no way to add the players you need to compete for championships then you have to find other paths to get there and since we are entering a draft like we haven't seen in some time with a generational talent then that path at least has a chance to pan out as opposed to our current path. It's just logical and pragmatic nothing more and this FO has always seemed to lean in to pragmatic decisions....

That's where I'm coming from....and it's totally cool if you or anyone else here sees it differently... my preferred path was always to build around DJ but, I've come to believe that's not possible anymore so...I have to consider other alternatives ...it's not personal against DJ because I think he's a very good player and has handled his business very professionally. You may see a path to add a better player to play alongside him....I don't think that deal's out there but I'm all ears if you can't paint that path in a picture...

Should have said " I'm all ears if you can paint that path in a picture "..... it's a little frustrating not being able to edit my posts..lol

[mo7888]

People fretting over details of any trade should note that, if any of these rumors are true, the Spurs have rejected several scenarios Atlanta has come up with. So the notion that they'll go cheap on getting rid of Murray is likely not true.

I agree..

[scott]

then tell me who are those teams? Cause I don't see the Rockets, OKC, Magic, Pistons, Pacers or Kings giving us a pick just because we need a top 6 pick. Maybe we should just give them Keldon while we're having a fire sale

Just spit-balling... but how about a 4-way deal with S&T Bridges to DET, Collins to CHA and DETs unprotected FRP in 2023 going to SA (amongst other things)? That seems to be the only pathway that gets a top-6 pick to SA.

[Ditty]

Spurs must really love some of the talent in this upcoming year’s draft. It’s a huge risk but to have a chance at Victor or Scoot would be really nice. Still think these rumors are BS.

[Chinook]

I'm not saying teams can't add a top banana to a team with a 2nd banana... I'm saying there's no deal on the horizon to do that in this scenario so we have two options 1) max him and pay for the privilege of being a perpetual play-in team or 2) cash in on his value to give us a shot at getting an elite talent to build around.

I don't think folks have ton of issue with understanding the logic of trading away a player to get assets back. I think some people might take issue with the idea that one of (and perhaps even the most important of) those assets being increased lottery odds. I know I'd be ecstatic if guys stepped up in the wake of a Murray trade to let the Spurs being a play-in team once again. I think looking at the last three years and thinking it's a sign the team has been stuck is superficial. The first year, the team was leveraged toward older players (I think that was the year of the failed Carroll trade, to put into perspective what the team's priorities were and bad, with the bubble being the only saving grace. The second year, the team had started to feature more younger players but still had older guys in prominent positions. This past year was almost exclusively young guys. So the team has remained within a standard deviation of average because the quality of their youth has increased. That to me is progress, and I don't think it would take a grand trade to move the Spurs into the 5-7 range in the conference -- it would just take an aggressive one.

That's why avoiding Collins in a potential Atlanta trade isn't really a plus for me. If the team gets him, the goal should be to either use him or get the most trade value for him. That might not be an immediate thing. It might entail a year or two on the club to find the right leverage. In the meantime, guys like Primo and Branham can develop with the guy who graded out as the best PnR roll man in the league. If the Spurs' actual path to development is for someone like Primo to met the lofty expectations set for him, then getting him a partner who will enhance rather than conflict with him makes the most sense possible.

I think making a trade with the assumption that getting a guaranteed lotto pick for 2023 is untenable. I can't think of a single team that would pursue Murray that would do that. Any team that wants him is good enough to not convey good if any lotto odds after adding him. Very few teams own the unprotected 2023 picks of other clubs. I think it might just be Brooklyn, Houston, OKC and Houston. Anyone else is giving you a protected pick or a pick encumbered by Murray's addition. If the goal is to increase 2023 odds, it's not looking good. They'd have much better odds if they take future unprotected picks and punt on the 2023 NBA draft. Even if those picks end up conveying ala OKC and NOP this year, you can argue that simply having lesser immediate value would have been the superior play.

Unfortunately, the Spurs can extend Murray this season due to them dragging their feet four years ago. His anniversary is after the start to next season, so he has to wait until the next year. That ruins the idea of renegotiating and extending his contract as a way to save long-term money. It takes some security out of keeping him, though I guess it also frees up cap space from even the thought of saving it. I don't think the win-now trade is on the horizon. I think they're another year of asset acquisition/development from putting together a legit superstar package that doesn't hamper the team. I really hope they intend to take to Lavine and look into acquiring Collins or another PF. I'd prefer for them to be opportunistic buyers than sellers right now.

[objective]

That's because in the last three months of the season teams were beginning to tank. Spurs played a lot of tanking teams in the last two months of the season and passed some teams in the standings and hurt their draft position.

Yet the Spurs had their own issues. Primo forced to pay and he wasn't any good. Walker missing time. Dejounte missing time on his own. Covid. Zollins remembering how to run and jump.

Teams tanked, but the Spurs as a team should have been much worse.

[Ditty]

It’s going to be tough competing with Luka, Zion and Morant and all the young talent in Houston in a few years just in the division. We need all the fire power we need. We might be the most all around young talented team if we get a franchise player this upcoming draft.

[scott]

Hell, just before this past season everyone thought Murray, Poeltl, and White had zero value and yet their value is high now.

This is looking too much at things in a vacuum.

Remembering back to the good ol' days when this forum thought we should give Murray plus a zillion picks for Ben fuckin' Simmons

[BackHome]

The love for Simmons truly showed me how many people just don't know basketball

[Dejounte]

Remembering back to the good ol' days when this forum thought we should give Murray plus a zillion picks for Ben fuckin' Simmons

Same folks who were trigger happy then are trigger happy now.

[BackHome]

Most Knick fans want Brunson over Murray.

That's not true....

[mo7888]

I don't think folks have ton of issue with understanding the logic of trading away a player to get assets back. I think some people might take issue with the idea that one of (and perhaps even the most important of) those assets being increased lottery odds. I know I'd be ecstatic if guys stepped up in the wake of a Murray trade to let the Spurs being a play-in team once again. I think looking at the last three years and thinking it's a sign the team has been stuck is superficial. The first year, the team was leveraged toward older players (I think that was the year of the failed Carroll trade, to put into perspective what the team's priorities were and bad, with the bubble being the only saving grace. The second year, the team had started to feature more younger players but still had older guys in prominent positions. This past year was almost exclusively young guys. So the team has remained within a standard deviation of average because the quality of their youth has increased. That to me is progress, and I don't think it would take a grand trade to move the Spurs into the 5-7 range in the conference -- it would just take an aggressive one.

That's why avoiding Collins in a potential Atlanta trade isn't really a plus for me. If the team gets him, the goal should be to either use him or get the most trade value for him. That might not be an immediate thing. It might entail a year or two on the club to find the right leverage. In the meantime, guys like Primo and Branham can develop with the guy who graded out as the best PnR roll man in the league. If the Spurs' actual path to development is for someone like Primo to met the lofty expectations set for him, then getting him a partner who will enhance rather than conflict with him makes the most sense possible.

I think making a trade with the assumption that getting a guaranteed lotto pick for 2023 is untenable. I can't think of a single team that would pursue Murray that would do that. Any team that wants him is good enough to not convey good if any lotto odds after adding him. Very few teams own the unprotected 2023 picks of other clubs. I think it might just be Brooklyn, Houston, OKC and Houston. Anyone else is giving you a protected pick or a pick encumbered by Murray's addition. If the goal is to increase 2023 odds, it's not looking good. They'd have much better odds if they take future unprotected picks and punt on the 2023 NBA draft. Even if those picks end up conveying ala OKC and NOP this year, you can argue that simply having lesser immediate value would have been the superior play.

Unfortunately, the Spurs can extend Murray this season due to them dragging their feet four years ago. His anniversary is after the start to next season, so he has to wait until the next year. That ruins the idea of renegotiating and extending his contract as a way to save long-term money. It takes some security out of keeping him, though I guess it also frees up cap space from even the thought of saving it. I don't think the win-now trade is on the horizon. I think they're another year of asset acquisition/development from putting together a legit superstar package that doesn't hamper the team. I really hope they intend to take to Lavine and look into acquiring Collins or another PF. I'd prefer for them to be opportunistic buyers than sellers right now.

I understand your view on team building and you've expressed it for several years now and for the most part we've followed it. I'm not saying the team is listening to you per se just that your view has been their view or close to it. I'm not even opposed to it if I could see a way to improve to the point that we are legitimately competing for championships. I'm just not interested in a team who's goal is to be the 5th seed in the west if everything goes our way. I also am factoring in that this is a talented draft at the top that we don't see very often. I realize you don't don't follow draft intel very much and it's not your preferred interest but, this draft has a generational talent at the top and 5 more players rated above Banchero in it. If we don't have a path to add better players to DJ I think the smart move is to trade him away and get as many bites at the apple in this draft as possible and tank. You've never heard me argue for tanking before and its mostly because we haven't seen a draft like this in the years I've been on this board. We can't guarantee that we'll get the 1st pick but we can guarantee that we get a player more talented than the 1st pick in the 2022 draft.

As for Lavine, I think they wanted to add him to DJ but that it's off the table now and there's no path left to take to find a better player to put alongside DJ...I think that was always their preferred option but they're looking at other options now since Plan A is washing out.

[Chinook]

Murray's numbers went up in a significant way when White was traded. Based on White's production the Spurs should have gone in the toilet but they kept winning at better than expected clip

What kind of numbers will be put up being the man did a whole season. With a better Vassell and Primo and a PF for 15-25 minutes a game who is over 6-6. And Zollins the whole year instead of half the year with Eubanks.

Murray's numbers will go up, with or without Ayton or a John Collins. His value will go up by the trade deadline.

But to sell him for 2 atl picks in the 20s and a lotto protected Charlotte pick or whatever it is, and eating Gallo, that is straight trash and it's not edge lord to say so.

And to see that the deal may have gotten worse, that is: no Collins, we want Gallo instead AND his guarantee goes UP?!? This is like paying Toronto to take 5 million and Danny Green. These rumors get worse.

Trade Murray, fine, but get a good deal. He's not pulling a Kawhi and hiding when he's expiring

People don't remember the Leonard trade era if they think the rumors were better than the result. The rumors had SA giving a pick to Toronto, and they had the Lakers demanding Murray in addition to Kawhi. Why people are believing an ATL reporter, who isn't even saying that's the entire trade in the first place is beyond me. It's not edgelord to think that deal is bad; it's edgelord to assume PATFO doesn't value Murray after everything we hear about them being that they "overplay their hands" by not being willing to take shit for their pieces. The Spurs are usually anti-trade, and that means they have a different kind of leverage than many teams do. When they say "No deal," they mean it, and that means teams like Boston have to come correct and potentially offer that extra swap. That is the reality of the Spurs trade history. The idea that the Spurs get bent over is the edgelord reframing.

The Spurs aren't going to trade Murray for a bad deal unless DeJounte is doing Kawhi stuff behind the scenes. All we've heard from the Spurs' side is that they wanted basically no protections on their picks in addition to a young player. ATL didn't want to meet that price, and the deal didn't happen. Now Collins is out of the deal, and people assume that must mean the Spurs are taking less rather than it meaning the Hawks can no longer turn Collins into the type of flagship asset the Spurs requested in addition to the pick. Gallo is expiring ballast akin to what the Spurs were expected to get back from the Collins reroute. He's not supposed to be valuable. If Collins isn't providing value anymore, and the Spurs are still playing hardball, it means Atlanta is trying to protect their top assets from being traded. If a trade does go down, I think we'll find out that the Hawks are giving up one or two of them. These leaks seem to indicated they're desperate and don't have another path toward easy improvement the Spurs have a much better path toward moving Murray, since unlike with Kawhi, DeJounte isn't threatening every other team. And if all this happens, and no one blinks, the Spurs keep Murray for another year.

[FkLA]

White > Instagram Baller imo

[slick'81]

Remembering back to the good ol' days when this forum thought we should give Murray plus a zillion picks for Ben fuckin' Simmons


tbf Murray and the beginning of last season was nowhere where he is now. We knew sixers wouldnt do it and they didn't. Their loss:lol

[objective]

I ended up as anti Simmons. And that was before Murray played well beyond my expectations

[Uriel]

I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?

[slick'81]

I ended up as anti Simmons. And that was before Murray played well beyond my expectations

spurs were willing and sixers weren't. Things changed quickly

[mo7888]

I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?

You only do it if you can't find Allstars to pair with them...

[slick'81]

I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?


https://images-eurohoops-net.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/images.eurohoops.net/2022/06/20420127-nba-draft-meet-7-foot-2-victor-wembanyama-the-french-prospect-who-1280x720-1-1024x576.jpg

[Uriel]

Having said that, if the team is able to land an unprotected pick in the 2023 draft from a lottery bound team, thereby increasing its chances of landing Wenbanyama, I believe it will be worth it. If this trade ultimately becomes the reason the team is able to select him, it will go down as one of the best decisions in Spurs history.

[DesignatedT]

Dejounte is going to want a max or near max deal after next season…. $45M/yr or whatever it is these days. Or he could play out the next two seasons and walk. Fans around here always bitching that PATFO waits to long and thus gets diminished returns and now.. it looks like they’re entertaining the idea of getting ahead of it this time and people are still bitching lol.

[objective]

People don't remember the Leonard trade era if they think the rumors were better than the result. The rumors had SA giving a pick to Toronto, and they had the Lakers demanding Murray in addition to Kawhi. Why people are believing an ATL reporter, who isn't even saying that's the entire trade in the first place is beyond me. It's not edgelord to think that deal is bad; it's edgelord to assume PATFO doesn't value Murray after everything we hear about them being that they "overplay their hands" by not being willing to take shit for their pieces. The Spurs are usually anti-trade, and that means they have a different kind of leverage than many teams do. When they say "No deal," they mean it, and that means teams like Boston have to come correct and potentially offer that extra swap. That is the reality of the Spurs trade history. The idea that the Spurs get bent over is the edgelord reframing.

The Spurs aren't going to trade Murray for a bad deal unless DeJounte is doing Kawhi stuff behind the scenes. All we've heard from the Spurs' side is that they wanted basically no protections on their picks in addition to a young player. ATL didn't want to meet that price, and the deal didn't happen. Now Collins is out of the deal, and people assume that must mean the Spurs are taking less rather than it meaning the Hawks can no longer turn Collins into the type of flagship asset the Spurs requested in addition to the pick. Gallo is expiring ballast akin to what the Spurs were expected to get back from the Collins reroute. He's not supposed to be valuable. If Collins isn't providing value anymore, and the Spurs are still playing hardball, it means Atlanta is trying to protect their top assets from being traded. If a trade does go down, I think we'll find out that the Hawks are giving up one or two of them. These leaks seem to indicated they're desperate and don't have another path toward easy improvement the Spurs have a much better path toward moving Murray, since unlike with Kawhi, DeJounte isn't threatening every other team. And if all this happens, and no one blinks, the Spurs keep Murray for another year.

Simply disgusting the news and rumors of the day on a message board is no vice

It's very simple.

Rumor of deal: reaction: "That sounds bad. I don't like that."

Opposite reaction: "I hate discussion on discussion boards!"

It doesn't have to be confirmed or official to talk about things and what the result of possible moves could be.

[objective]

spurs were willing and sixers weren't. Things changed quickly

Well, then they would have been wrong if they would have done the deal.

There I go again, being edgy by discussing a thing that never even happened.

[Mr. Body]

spurs were willing and sixers weren't. Things changed quickly

I don't think this is true.

[objective]

Simply disgusting the news and rumors of the day on a message board is no vice

It's very simple.

Rumor of deal: reaction: "That sounds bad. I don't like that."

Opposite reaction: "I hate discussion on discussion boards!"

It doesn't have to be confirmed or official to talk about things and what the result of possible moves could be.

*Discussing

[AFBlue]

Dejounte is going to want a max or near max deal after next season…. $45M/yr or whatever it is these days. Or he could play out the next two seasons and walk. Fans around here always bitching that PATFO waits to long and thus gets diminished returns and now.. it looks like they’re entertaining the idea of getting ahead of it this time and people are still bitching lol.

This. Sell high for max value, don't buy the bullsh that's being peddled.

[slick'81]

I don't think this is true.

So spurs never made an offer for Simmons?

[Chinook]

I understand your view on team building and you've expressed it for several years now and for the most part we've followed it. I'm not saying the team is listening to you per se just that your view has been their view or close to it. I'm not even opposed to it if I could see a way to improve to the point that we are legitimately competing for championships. I'm just not interested in a team who's goal is to be the 5th seed in the west if everything goes our way. I also am factoring in that this is a talented draft at the top that we don't see very often. I realize you don't don't follow draft intel very much and it's not your preferred interest but, this draft has a generational talent at the top and 5 more players rated above Banchero in it. If we don't have a path to add better players to DJ I think the smart move is to trade him away and get as many bites at the apple in this draft as possible and tank. You've never heard me argue for tanking before and its mostly because we haven't seen a draft like this in the years I've been on this board. We can't guarantee that we'll get the 1st pick but we can guarantee that we get a player more talented than the 1st pick in the 2022 draft.

As for Lavine, I think they wanted to add him to DJ but that it's off the table now and there's no path left to take to find a better player to put alongside DJ...I think that was always their preferred option but they're looking at other options now since Plan A is washing out.

My point was also that this trade doesn't really enhance the Spurs' lotto odds. They aren't very likely to get a meaningful pick for Murray, especially this early. You're talking about a pick above 10 to meaningfully add ping-pong balls, and the Spurs had to tank at the end to get below 10. A team making a Murray trade wouldn't be doing that. I'm not saying you're a tanking enthusiast, but I also think every upcoming draft is great until April when people realize it's not that special. I think the Spurs will come away with a good player or more, but I also don't think they'll be a horrible team after trading away Murray. If this draft is as well regarded as you say, there will be genuine tankers, and the Spurs, even if they suck -- won't compete on that level.

[mo7888]

My point was also that this trade doesn't really enhance the Spurs' lotto odds. They aren't very likely to get a meaningful pick for Murray, especially this early. You're talking about a pick above 10 to meaningfully add ping-pong balls, and the Spurs had to tank at the end to get below 10. A team making a Murray trade wouldn't be doing that. I'm not saying you're a tanking enthusiast, but I also think every upcoming draft is great until April when people realize it's not that special. I think the Spurs will come away with a good player or more, but I also don't think they'll be a horrible team after trading away Murray. If this draft is as well regarded as you say, there will be genuine tankers, and the Spurs, even if they suck -- won't compete on that level.

That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.

[scott]

tbf Murray and the beginning of last season was nowhere where he is now. We knew sixers wouldnt do it and they didn't. Their loss:lol

Many of us (including me if I can take a moment to self-fellate) valued Murray over Simmons a year ago. It didn’t take some magic crystal ball to see it at the time. A star who needs to be benched in crunch time, isn’t a star at all. DJM had shown a lot of the same flashes with DDR that he did last season.

[Atl Spur]

If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip :)

[Mr. Body]

So spurs never made an offer for Simmons?

There's no evidence the Spurs had any interest in Simmons whatsoever. It was a SpursTalk fantasy.

[mo7888]

If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip :)

I believe Chip is excellent... I believe Ben's shot is beyond Chips ability to fix...

[slick'81]

There's no evidence the Spurs had any interest in Simmons whatsoever. It was a SpursTalk fantasy.

I could of sworn spurs offered lonnie,murray and picks. But sixers wanted the moon.

[Chinook]

Simply disgusting the news and rumors of the day on a message board is no vice

It's very simple.

Rumor of deal: reaction: "That sounds bad. I don't like that."

Opposite reaction: "I hate discussion on discussion boards!"

It doesn't have to be confirmed or official to talk about things and what the result of possible moves could be.

That's not the rumored trade. The rumor was that the trade would involve Gallo and picks -- and no, not three picks and not protected picks; that's from a completely unrelated rumor. It's the edging folks who assume that must be the entire trade since it fits their worldview that SA gets destroyed in trades. It also ignores the other rumors we've heard about what the Spurs actually want versus what Atlanta wants to give. The narrative that one builds out of these pieces, and the reasons why one created that narrative are obviously part of normal discourse. Free speech also entails free criticism of bad takes. That's what I'm doing here. People are giving bad takes with bad information, and I'm pointing that out.

1) No, the Leonard trade wasn't worse then the rumored trade with Toronto

2) No, recent history doesn't show the Spurs taking bad trades

3) No, Collins being replaced with Gallo is not a sign the value went down, as the Spurs weren't getting Collins in the previous rumor either.

Point that out isn't curbing discussion unless the discussion is contingent on parroting falsehoods. I'm constantly critical of the Spurs; being so here is a perfectly fine discussion stance. That's not a shield against misreading tweets though.

[mystargtr34]

It’s going to be tough competing with Luka, Zion and Morant and all the young talent in Houston in a few years just in the division. We need all the fire power we need. We might be the most all around young talented team if we get a franchise player this upcoming draft.

The thing about Houston is they have all of Brooklyn’s picks (swaps) out to 2027 with only minor protections. If Kyrie and Durant leave which looks likely, the Nets might be headed to the bottom of the conference for a few years which makes the Rockets picks even more valuable.

[mo7888]

That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.

That should've said..."getting an unprotected pick from a team projected to be in the mid to late lottery"....

Sorry...didn't edit fast enough..

[scott]

That's not the rumored trade. The rumor was that the trade would involve Gallo and picks -- and no, not three picks and not protected picks; that's from a completely unrelated rumor. It's the edging folks who assume that must be the entire trade since it fits their worldview that SA gets destroyed in trades. It also ignores the other rumors we've heard about what the Spurs actually want versus what Atlanta wants to give. The narrative that one builds out of these pieces, and the reasons why one created that narrative are obviously part of normal discourse. Free speech also entails free criticism of bad takes. That's what I'm doing here. People are giving bad takes with bad information, and I'm pointing that out.

1) No, the Leonard trade wasn't worse then the rumored trade with Toronto

2) No, recent history doesn't show the Spurs taking bad trades

3) No, Collins being replaced with Gallo is not a sign the value went down, as the Spurs weren't getting Collins in the previous rumor either.

Point that out isn't curbing discussion unless the discussion is contingent on parroting falsehoods. I'm constantly critical of the Spurs; being so here is a perfectly fine discussion stance. That's not a shield against misreading tweets though.

At this juncture, I feel the rationale for trading or not trading DJ (or Jak for that matter. If you trade DJ you better trae Jak too) are well laid out.

At this point, I’d love to hear sharp posters (like you) lay out what you feel are good (yet realistic) returns for these assets that align with the Spurs mythology for trade making. Still not sure I love the idea of trading DJ, but this is a message board so I’d love to hear what “good” trades look like

[Chinook]

That depends on what you expect the final iteration of the trade to be. I am working off the premise that it'd end up being a 3 team trade getting an unprotected pick from a team in the mid to late lottery (unless Atlanta can entice the Kings) and its up to Atlanta to find that team. I also think if we move DJ in said deal we also move Jak and give alit of minutes to rookies and make our own pick end up near the top of the draft thereby increasing our odds at Wembanyama. I'm not just saying trade DJ for 4 20something draft picks ...I'm basing it on getting a deal that enhances our lottery odds this year. If I didn't think we could get a deal done that increased our lottery odds I wouldn't do the deal.

Whether it's Murray or Collins, the only teams willing to give up unprotected 2023 picks are those that have extra picks like the four I mentioned or who think they're so much of a contender that they will not give up a good pick. The odds of teams in that later category giving up a pick with lottery chances about 10 is very small in my mind. You could have a clearer target if you waited until the deadline, but teams at real risk of giving up a lotto pick will protect their picks way more. It's much easier to get a 2024 pick without protection and hit on that. The easiest way to improve the draft picks directly is to make the trade during the draft itself. I'd gauge the Spurs' chances of getting a better selection are better if they hold onto Murray this whole than if they traded him now.

[mo7888]

Whether it's Murray or Collins, the only teams willing to give up unprotected 2023 picks are those that have extra picks like the four I mentioned or who think they're so much of a contender that they will not give up a good pick. The odds of teams in that later category giving up a pick with lottery chances about 10 is very small in my mind. You could have a clearer target if you waited until the deadline, but teams at real risk of giving up a lotto pick will protect their picks way more. It's much easier to get a 2024 pick without protection and hit on that. The easiest way to improve the draft picks directly is to make the trade during the draft itself. I'd gauge the Spurs' chances of getting a better selection are better if they hold onto Murray this whole than if they traded him now.

You may very well be correct but, I think there are scenarios where Atlanta can get an unprotected 1st from NY or Portland that are likely to be mid to late lottery projected...

[south side spur]

I don’t think there’s really anything to this from the Spurs front office as far as Murray being “on the market”. This seems to be a one sided Atlanta pipe dream. We’re really going to get in an uproar over some nobody seeking Twitter clout? How many of y’all ever heard of this Fischer weasel? And then some Atlanta mediot weasel? How long does “on the verge” last?

Now let’s just entertain this and say a trade goes through. Those of y’all that really think this is “blowing it up”, when White was traded, that term was kind of being thrown around on here and while Richardson isn’t a “better” basketball player compared to White he proved to be definitely “better” for the Spurs. He became a veteran leader which White wasn’t. The team listened and responded to him from the moment he arrived. He was a more reliable 3 point shooter. If a throw in like that can have that effect who’s to say it can’t happen again? Richardson wasn’t anything special yet he was a net positive for this team. Who knows maybe they re-sign Lonnie and put him at point.

To think that trading Murray would accelerate a full tank is just being hyperbolic. I don’t wanna hear any analytical nonsense either he’s not carrying this team. He’s not putting this team on his back to the playoffs. This team is just kinda there. The real issue is there is no belief in Primo or Jones. According to many here the Spurs youth are the only players in the league that can never improve and will always just be what they are at 21 and 22 years old and yet every year when these kids improve it’s a total surprise as if players haven’t routinely did this within the Spurs organization. They’re definitely hitting more than missing. Primo and Jones could both fill in for Murray if he’s traded and this team won’t even drop in the standings.

Some here are saying that these Atlanta picks will be in the 20s maybe even late 20s. No they won’t. Now I’m not saying they’ll all be lottery picks but we don’t really even know that for sure. In the East, Atlanta will not have more wins than Miami, Boston, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Toronto or Chicago. So they’ll be in the play in with Cleveland and Charlotte. This is with the expectation that Brooklyn loses both Kyrie and KD. How in the hell are these picks going to be in the late 20s I’m not even bringing up the West.

I don’t want Murray to be traded. However, the Spurs can’t afford to pass on multiple first rounders. Regardless, what most of the whiners here believe, talent can be found throughout the draft. Many believe Branham was the steal of the draft at 20 and there are some who believe that Wesley has the most 2 way upside. Some analysts even believe that if he would’ve stayed in school he could’ve been on an Ivey type trajectory. More picks give this front office more shots at a Parker, Ginobili, Autistic Mute, Murray, White, KJ.

I’m still hoping that IF a trade is imminent the talks turn to the desperate Knicks and the Spurs rape them but any multiple first round pick trade will not make this team worse, they’ll only lose a few games more than this season at most because of the continued ascension of KJ and Vassell. Let’s not make Murray more than what he is. He’s not a franchise altering player. I’m not even sure if he is a DeRozan.

[mystargtr34]

I am in the camp of trade Murray as opposed to keep Murray, although I am fine with the latter. It also depends on the value you get back in a trade.

Reasons I’m in the trade camp, I don’t see Murray as a top 2 option on a contender or championship team, his value is at or close to an all time high (based on production, contract value and years remaining) and will start to diminish from about the mid point of this upcoming season I.e once you get under 1.5 years remaining on the contract, he will command a max deal in two years which means the Spurs ceiling is limited if they sign him or let him walk.

If im the Spurs I look for as many first round picks as possible and take on some bad salary. Teams can’t trade consecutive firsts so you’d look at something like a 2023 first, 2024 pick swap, 2025 first, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first. 3 years, let alone 5 years is such a longtime in the NBA that a team at the top now could easily be a cellar dweller in 3 years. Look at what’s happening with Brooklyn and look at all the picks the Rockets own from the Nets (swaps).

Some teams who may be interested in Murray in addition to the Hawks might be Charlotte (defense and secondary playmaker next to Lamelo) Cleveland (defense and secondary playmaker next to Garland), Miami (third all-star next to Bam and Jimmy), Milwaukee (big drop off in talent after their big 3 of Giannis, Middleton and Holiday), New York (wants to win now and needs a PG), Washington (if they sign Beal to a max which looks likely), Lakers (Lebron and AD window), Dallas (Luka window), Denver (Jokic window), Minnesota (third star next to KAT and Edwards, Sacramento (Sabonis and Fox), Portland (Lillard window). All of these teams are in win now mode and tied to big contracts with players. Not saying they will all want Murray, but there’s teams out there that Murray could elevate to a contender.

[rankingtear]

This is what selling guys at peak value looks like. Wright gets his rebuild armed with multiple picks. Jakob and Keldon maybe next since they are not his guys.

[BackHome]

If Simmons wasn’t such a little broad and actually wanted to play basketball, I’d still take him over Murray! Ben would make us pretty nasty….. I believe in Chip :)

But the dude is a flake and that me being nice no way would I trade for him

[mystargtr34]

I am in the camp of trade Murray as opposed to keep Murray, although I am fine with the latter. It also depends on the value you get back in a trade.

Reasons I’m in the trade camp, I don’t see Murray as a top 2 option on a contender or championship team, his value is at or close to an all time high (based on production, contract value and years remaining) and will start to diminish from about the mid point of this upcoming season I.e once you get under 1.5 years remaining on the contract, he will command a max deal in two years which means the Spurs ceiling is limited if they sign him or let him walk.

If im the Spurs I look for as many first round picks as possible and take on some bad salary. Teams can’t trade consecutive firsts so you’d look at something like a 2023 first, 2024 pick swap, 2025 first, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first. 3 years, let alone 5 years is such a longtime in the NBA that a team at the top now could easily be a cellar dweller in 3 years. Look at what’s happening with Brooklyn and look at all the picks the Rockets own from the Nets (swaps).

Some teams who may be interested in Murray in addition to the Hawks might be Charlotte (defense and secondary playmaker next to Lamelo) Cleveland (defense and secondary playmaker next to Garland), Miami (third all-star next to Bam and Jimmy), Milwaukee (big drop off in talent after their big 3 of Giannis, Middleton and Holiday), New York (wants to win now and needs a PG), Washington (if they sign Beal to a max which looks likely), Lakers (Lebron and AD window), Dallas (Luka window), Denver (Jokic window), Minnesota (third star next to KAT and Edwards, Sacramento (Sabonis and Fox), Portland (Lillard window). All of these teams are in win now mode and tied to big contracts with players. Not saying they will all want Murray, but there’s teams out there that Murray could elevate to a contender.

I agree with this. Losing Murray doesn't mean the Spurs will automatically go from a 40 win team to a 20 win team, or even a 30 win team. They might not even suffer much of a drop off with improvements and bigger roles for Keldon, Devin, Primo. Not to mention Sochan and Branham added to the mix. I think Murrays stats are more Derozan-esque than they are say Duncan-esque for example.

[rascal]

I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?

Because you're looking for a franchise player top 10 in the league not a low level all star like Murray.

[BatManu20]

Oh shit.


1541499958536421376

[kobyz]

Murray to Washington seems the most logical: Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, Ishmael Smith, Isaiah Todd, Thomas Bryant(s&t), 3 future firsts for Murray, Josh Richardson

[John B]

Dejounte is a borderline AS. He is NOT a max player and I don’t think the SO views him as such. I think he will be moved at the latest by trade deadline. It’s only fair that Murray shows that he is worth the Max contract before then, including getting into the line consistently. I doubt he duplicates last years’ almost triple double average, with expectedly more players improving and getting a bigger piece of the pie. Still it would take true leadership to distribute and get everybody on the same page. If the Spurs are above .500 then, it’s a good change they give it to him. Somebody mentioned Simmons. I would consider swap with Simmons tbh.

[scott]

Dejounte is a borderline AS. He is NOT a max player and I don’t think the SO views him as such. I think he will be moved at the latest by trade deadline. It’s only fair that Murray shows that he is worth the Max contract before then, including getting into the line consistently. I doubt he duplicates last years’ almost triple double average, with expectedly more players improving and getting a bigger piece of the pie. Still it would take true leadership to distribute and get everybody on the same page. If the Spurs are above .500 then, it’s a good change they give it to him. Somebody mentioned Simmons. I would consider swap with Simmons tbh.

You want to trade DJ because he might not be worth a max contract for a guy who is definitely not worth a max contract but is already on one? :lol

[rankingtear]

Looks like it's done up until the Gallo buyout. Doubt a deal falls through because of this ATL got cash from the draft.

[Dejounte]

You may very well be correct but, I think there are scenarios where Atlanta can get an unprotected 1st from NY or Portland that are likely to be mid to late lottery projected...

What scenarios would NY or Portland give their unprotected first next year? If ATL is giving SA all of theirs, what assets do they have that would be enticing enough to give an unprotected first for? NY/POR aren’t going to give it for OO, Hunter, or Collins.

[tbdog]

I think Portland has a shot for ayton and using that 1st and some 2nds they have up their sleeve to make it happen.

[cutewizard]

hmmmmm

thoughts galore here

[KingKev]

I think Portland has a shot for ayton and using that 1st and some 2nds they have up their sleeve to make it happen.

They won’t be able to pay Simmons if they want to go after Ayton and they’ll still be pressed to max him as they used a fair chunk of cap for Grant already.

[ragas]

Like it. Spurs let Murray compete for 2 years, get high draft picks when they suck without him and give Murray a new contract when he enters UFA. Nice plan!

[spurspl]

gallo makes sense... old washed overpriced international player

[rankingtear]

I could of sworn spurs offered lonnie,murray and picks. But sixers wanted the moon.

I remember it as Murray + Lonnie no picks.

[CGD]

I’m having trouble understanding the logic of trading Murray. The way I see it, you use the draft to find all-stars, and once you find these all-stars, you build around them by finding other all-stars to pair with them.

Why then would you trade the all-stars you’ve already found for more draft picks to instigate process all over again? Is this going to be a never ending cycle?

Basically, I think it’s a age thing. We missed our chance to pair Murray with a legit star in recent years, and now the team skews very young.

[Ice009]

Oh shit.


1541499958536421376

what does this mean?

[mo7888]

What scenarios would NY or Portland give their unprotected first next year? If ATL is giving SA all of theirs, what assets do they have that would be enticing enough to give an unprotected first for? NY/POR aren’t going to give it for OO, Hunter, or Collins.

With NY it's a player like you mentioned or a future pick plus some of our cap space...in the case of Portland it's likely a player that they feel will help them this year with Dame who can fit seamlessly with Grant... they might see Hunter as that guy or they might need a KJ to get it done.

[Dejounte]

With NY it's a player like you mentioned or a future pick plus some of our cap space...in the case of Portland it's likely a player that they feel will help them this year with Dame who can fit seamlessly with Grant... they might see Hunter as that guy or they might need a KJ to get it done.

What player for NY? A future first and a salary dump for an unprotected first?

…Unprotected first for Hunter?

[mo7888]

What player for NY? A future first and a salary dump for an unprotected first?

…Unprotected first for Hunter?

It could be hunter..it could be that they'd value OO....it could even be that they're one of the Eastern Conf teams that Timvp mentioned that's after DJ themselves...and in that scenario it could be instead of Brunson or to pair with Brunson...a deal that paired those two would be worth several picks to them.... there are just so many scenarios and so many things in play right now it's hard to know which one they take but it's pretty clear we're trying to cash in on DJ in some form or fashion.

[Ignazzz]

Road to greatness again:
2022
high sell Dejounte (3 picks included 1 unprotected 23) Poelt (1 pick ) Josh plus cap space sell ( knicks 2 years contracts) another 1rd pick
2023
low cost young team - high lotto pick ( own) and 2 extra for 2023
Large playing time just for youngsters Like spurs with young Robinson Rod Anderson and Sean
One extra star from cap space after Draft ( 1st overal ??)
2024
max offer for Dejounte from our totally better team

[Dejounte]

It could be hunter..it could be that they'd value OO....it could even be that they're one of the Eastern Conf teams that Timvp mentioned that's after DJ themselves...and in that scenario it could be instead of Brunson or to pair with Brunson...a deal that paired those two would be worth several picks to them.... there are just so many scenarios and so many things in play right now it's hard to know which one they take but it's pretty clear we're trying to cash in on DJ in some form or fashion.

Eh, agree to disagree. It sounds like you’re just saying there’s many scenarios because you’re struggling to name a specific one. I’d like to see you post that trade proposal on their board of giving up an unprotected first for Hunter or OO. That is just something that doesn’t happen.

[mo7888]

Eh, agree to disagree. It sounds like you’re just saying there’s many scenarios because you’re struggling to name a specific one. I’d like to see you post that trade proposal on their board of giving up an unprotected first for Hunter or OO. That is just something that doesn’t happen.

That's cool...you could be right (with the exception of me struggling) at any rate if you are we'll know in the next few days... I'm not infallible and I've been wrong before and will be in the future... I'm just following the logic and trying to weed out the things that aren't.... either way...its an interesting time in SA and alot of people are following this so that in itself is a positive..

[exstatic]

If it’s just Gallo + picks, I’ll be pretty pissed. OKC has all the picks in the world and they still suck lol so much luck goes into drafting the next guy.

They suck ON PURPOSE. They’re trying to lose.

[exstatic]

seems like Gallo's contract becoming guaranteed actually helps facilitate the deal to match salaries

Cutting Gallo and eating only $5M is one of the big draws of this deal.

[Chinook]

I just think folks are underestimating how hard it is to get unprotected picks from anything other than the truly elite teams in the league. It the 2023 draft was the Spurs' goal, they should have pushed to get 2023 swaps/unprotected picks years ago. ATL, Washington, NYK -- those are teams that could still miss the playoffs even without Murray if things don't go according to plan. Minny and NOP are other teams, but they have the advantage of directly competing against a weakened Spurs team for a playoff spot. The Pelicans, with their ability to give up a doubly unprotected pick (their own and LAL's with swap rights), might be the best option.

Murray for Daniels, NOP's unprotected 2023 first (including LAL swap rights), LAL's 2024/2025 pick and MKE's 2027 pick.

The Spurs get their young player and three firsts, all unprotected. They never depend on the Pelicans being bad, but they get two different "bites at the apple".

[Chinook]

Cutting Gallo and eating only $5M is one of the big draws of this deal.

It's not, because that's no longer how trades work. If Gallo is only guaranteed $5 Million, then he only counts for that much when matching for the Hawks but counts for the full amount when matching for the Spurs. That's why they have to raise his guarantee amount so the Hawks can do this deal: otherwise, they aren't sending out enough to match Murray's salary.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

It's not, because that's no longer how trades work. If Gallo is only guaranteed $5 Million, then he only counts for that much when matching for the Hawks but counts for the full amount when matching for the Spurs. That's why they have to raise his guarantee amount so the Hawks can do this deal: otherwise, they aren't sending out enough to match Murray's salary.

Yep, same thing is happening with Danny Green's contract in the 23 for Melton trade.

[exstatic]

Maybe, just maybe, PATFO is trying to generate a bidding war for Dejounte with other teams around the league.

Hopefully they've learned to be better negotiators after the Kawhi ass rape return.

That return still has assets outstanding We got Jak, Keldon, 3 years of DeRozan, which has now become a 2025 FRP and Wesley. Jak and Keldon could still be flipped for further assets.

[exstatic]

No way this level headed overly pragmatic front office attempts to stock pile picks believing that they can will their way to the 1st pick.

No amount of draft capital will be enough to trade for that 1st pick either.

You don’t stockpile the picks hoping for a #1, you stockpile them hoping for a Kawhi at 15, or a Booker at 13. The more shots at it, the better the odds.

[exstatic]

Our FO has never shown an inkling to trade proven all star talent for better “odds”.

DeMar DeRozan has entered the chat…

[Excessive Egotist]

I just think folks are underestimating how hard it is to get unprotected picks from anything other than the truly elite teams in the league. It the 2023 draft was the Spurs' goal, they should have pushed to get 2023 swaps/unprotected picks years ago. ATL, Washington, NYK -- those are teams that could still miss the playoffs even without Murray if things don't go according to plan. Minny and NOP are other teams, but they have the advantage of directly competing against a weakened Spurs team for a playoff spot. The Pelicans, with their ability to give up a doubly unprotected pick (their own and LAL's with swap rights), might be the best option.

Murray for Daniels, NOP's unprotected 2023 first (including LAL swap rights), LAL's 2024/2025 pick and MKE's 2027 pick.

The Spurs get their young player and three firsts, all unprotected. They never depend on the Pelicans being bad, but they get two different "bites at the apple".

If the Spurs move Murray this week, their timeline would seem to reset around Vassell and the 19 year olds. If this is apparent to the rest of the league, Spurs should get offers for Poeltl, Johnson, and maybe Richardson at the start of free agency. I'm only spitballing, but I'd guess Spurs would be patient and hold a floor of 2 first round grade assets for Poeltl, 2.5 assets for Johnson, and 1 first round grade asset for Richardson. On Richardson, I think bad teams might offer two picks projected in the 30s, but Spurs should be patient. There will be a first round market for Richardson at the deadline.

In my mind, a .5 asset is a second, light protections on a pick, a decent young player, or a tradable contract.

Multiple teams would be interested in Johnson and Poeltl, which could create a competitive bid.

I'm interested to see if the Spurs seeks more '23 picks in these trades. This will signal how badly they want to select at the top of the '23 draft.

[superbigtime]

Murray is going to have an insane year. Stop the madness.

[Excessive Egotist]

Over/Under. I'll set the total number of new FRPs acquired by Spurs between now and the '23 deadline at 8.

[exstatic]

Just spit-balling... but how about a 4-way deal with S&T Bridges to DET, Collins to CHA and DETs unprotected FRP in 2023 going to SA (amongst other things)? That seems to be the only pathway that gets a top-6 pick to SA.

Detroit’s 2023 FRP is the propert of the OKC Thunder.

[exstatic]

Just spit-balling... but how about a 4-way deal with S&T Bridges to DET, Collins to CHA and DETs unprotected FRP in 2023 going to SA (amongst other things)? That seems to be the only pathway that gets a top-6 pick to SA.

Detroit’s 2023 FRP is the property of the OKC Thunder.

[BacktoBasics]

You don’t stockpile the picks hoping for a #1, you stockpile them hoping for a Kawhi at 15, or a Booker at 13. The more shots at it, the better the odds.
You already have that in Murray. As least better than you could typically hope for.

[BacktoBasics]

DeMar DeRozan has entered the chat…

I’ll concede your point even though I don’t think it’s the same. He was in the Aldridge window and after that it was clearly time to part ways. He’s not the same building block as DJ. Not in my eyes.

[exstatic]

You already have that in Murray. As least better than you could typically hope for.

Nope. DJ isn’t even close to Kawhi, nor will he reach that level of All NBA regularity. He may not even be a legit #2 option. I’ll concede Booker, because he’s probably a #2 option.

[BacktoBasics]

Since we’re just tossing shit at the wall.

It’s not crazy to think all this trade chatter and steep asking price is designed to build value in DJ and put a spotlight on him being viewed as a respected and impactful player. Helping any prospective FA or trade chip much more open and motivated to wanting to be paired up with him. A player wanting to come here certainly would help facilitate a S&T etc.

[BacktoBasics]

Since we’re just tossing shit at the wall.

It’s not crazy to think all this trade chatter and steep asking price is designed to build value in DJ and put a spotlight on him being viewed as a respected and impactful player. Helping any prospective FA or trade chip much more open and motivated to wanting to be paired up with him. A player wanting to come here certainly would help facilitate a S&T etc.

[Chinook]

If the Spurs move Murray this week, their timeline would seem to reset around Vassell and the 19 year olds. If this is apparent to the rest of the league, Spurs should get offers for Poeltl, Johnson, and maybe Richardson at the start of free agency. I'm only spitballing, but I'd guess Spurs would be patient and hold a floor of 2 first round grade assets for Poeltl, 2.5 assets for Johnson, and 1 first round grade asset for Richardson. On Richardson, I think bad teams might offer two picks projected in the 30s, but Spurs should be patient. There will be a first round market for Richardson at the deadline.

In my mind, a .5 asset is a second, light protections on a pick, a decent young player, or a tradable contract.

Multiple teams would be interested in Johnson and Poeltl, which could create a competitive bid.

I'm interested to see if the Spurs seeks more '23 picks in these trades. This will signal how badly they want to select at the top of the '23 draft.

I'm a firm believer that timelines don't exist in basketball. You have a mix that you make work, or you don't. I think the Spurs currently have a mix they can try to ignite now, but apparently they might not think so. The fact that guys are young isn't going to mean that they'll be good later. It just means that they'll have to check back in a few years to see if that they another mix they can try igniting. The Spurs know more than anyone that you can have a successful core made up of players who have drastic age gaps. They aren't thinking of Murray's age at all in this trade, I'd suspect, but rather his ceiling. They don't seem to think he's worth building around. I don't necessarily disagree with them if they do. Trading Murray and giving Primo the ball is a move they should make if they truly believe he's worth of it.

[BackHome]

So looking at good first round picks:

Pelicans:
2023 - Pelicans have option to switch with Flakers pick
2024 - Pelicans have option on Flakers 2024 or 2025 pick

Knicks:
2023 first round via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)

[Excessive Egotist]

I'm a firm believer that timelines don't exist in basketball. You have a mix that you make work, or you don't. I think the Spurs currently have a mix they can try to ignite now, but apparently they might not think so. The fact that guys are young isn't going to mean that they'll be good later. It just means that they'll have to check back in a few years to see if that they another mix they can try igniting. The Spurs know more than anyone that you can have a successful core made up of players who have drastic age gaps. They aren't thinking of Murray's age at all in this trade, I'd suspect, but rather his ceiling. They don't seem to think he's worth building around. I don't necessarily disagree with them if they do. Trading Murray and giving Primo the ball is a move they should make if they truly believe he's worth of it.


I hear you on all this. Only pushback is that I'm confident the Spurs FO does believe in timelines.

As I've said, I don't believe they favor Hinkie style tanking except in the case of generational talent, which they may believe Wembanyama represents. So this Murray trade talk probably does reflect their belief Murray is at or near his ceiling (as you speculate), strong confidence in Primo (as you speculate), and being enamored by top of 2023 draft class (my speculation). Those who believe Klutch is (too heavily) involved are likely correct, too. And it just so happens that there are a lot of desperate teams around the league willing to pay the Spurs' asking price for Murray--so the market dynamics are in the Spurs' favor. They felt the opposite with Leonard... In short, seems like a perfect storm of converging circumstances may be driving Murray trade talk.

I also wonder--pure speculation---if back channel conversations with Quinn Synder suggest he'd prefer an asset-laden team led by young talent? This is counter-intuitive to me, but not implausible.

[Excessive Egotist]

So looking at good first round picks:

Pelicans:
2023 - Pelicans have option to switch with Flakers pick
2024 - Pelicans have option on Flakers 2024 or 2025 pick

Knicks:
2023 first round via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)

This list might be more important relative to Keldon Johnson. Also, Knicks, Wizards, and Kings are worth looking at.

[Chinook]

I hear you on all this. Only pushback is that I'm confident the Spurs FO does believe in timelines.

They definitely don't, or at least they definitely haven't historically. That doesn't mean they don't believe in trading away older players, but they know it's okay to have a core of a 36-year-old, a 34-year-old, a 30-year-old and a 20-year-old. They were perfectly fine going with a 32-year-old a 26-year-old and a 20-year-old as a core before Leonard asked out. They'd have no issue with a 26-year-old, a 22-year-old and a 19-year-old being a core.

If the Spurs were so smart/confident about the 2023 draft, they would not just be trying to make it work right now. Last summer would have been the time they started working on it rather than trading DeRozan for bad salary and a protected future first. They had loads of cap space and young talent. This arguably the worst time to try to get ping-pong balls for the next draft. Earlier would have been better; latter would be better. Now is just bad unless the Spurs' analysis of another team is just on point.

[Chinook]

So looking at good first round picks:

Pelicans:
2023 - Pelicans have option to switch with Flakers pick
2024 - Pelicans have option on Flakers 2024 or 2025 pick

Knicks:
2023 first round via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)

The Pelicans are the single-best team for folks who want to make a trade to increase the Spurs' lottery odds. Houston and OKC aren't going to be part of a trade like this. The only semi-realistic trade that comes close is the one where SA gets Charlotte to unprotect their pick by tanking on Hayward (or more like Rozier). Getting the full lotto odds of two fringe playoff teams is the best they can do right now.

[CGD]

So looking at good first round picks:

Pelicans:
2023 - Pelicans have option to switch with Flakers pick
2024 - Pelicans have option on Flakers 2024 or 2025 pick

Knicks:
2023 first round via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)

Dont forget the Knicks possess all their own natural picks for the first time in what seems like forever.

[baseline bum]

No clue..

Yeah Harris has no clue.

[Chinook]

Something like:

Murray to ATL

McDermott to Charlotte

Rozier and Gallo to SAS along with ATL's 2023 unprotected firsts and future compensation from there (no need to keep listing that shit) and Charlotte's unprotected pick for 2023.

The Spurs get three unprotected firsts to add in for a chance to win the lotto, but they take on $96M/4 for Terry to make that work. That's a huge burden, even though Rozier isn't a horrible player and would fit okay in the rotation as a partner or insurance for Primo not being a starting PG.

[mo7888]

I'm a firm believer that timelines don't exist in basketball. You have a mix that you make work, or you don't. I think the Spurs currently have a mix they can try to ignite now, but apparently they might not think so. The fact that guys are young isn't going to mean that they'll be good later. It just means that they'll have to check back in a few years to see if that they another mix they can try igniting. The Spurs know more than anyone that you can have a successful core made up of players who have drastic age gaps. They aren't thinking of Murray's age at all in this trade, I'd suspect, but rather his ceiling. They don't seem to think he's worth building around. I don't necessarily disagree with them if they do. Trading Murray and giving Primo the ball is a move they should make if they truly believe he's worth of it.

From a FO perspective I think timeliness only exist in relation to an Alpha centerpiece. If you have a Duncan, KD, Lebron etc you have to compliment that based around their shelf life. From a players perspective guys like DJ who will be max players but are 3rd options the timeline is important to them but much less so for a FO who's trying to cobble a competitive team together. That's kinda how I see the timeline thing..

[baseline bum]

Something like:

Murray to ATL

McDermott to Charlotte

Rozier and Gallo to SAS along with ATL's 2023 unprotected firsts and future compensation from there (no need to keep listing that shit) and Charlotte's unprotected pick for 2023.

The Spurs get three unprotected firsts to add in for a chance to win the lotto, but they take on $96M/4 for Terry to make that work. That's a huge burden, even though Rozier isn't a horrible player and would fit okay in the rotation as a partner or insurance for Primo not being a starting PG.

In that scenario you're tanking so should buy Rozier out. No need for Primo's not a PG insurance.

[Chinook]

In that scenario you're tanking so should buy Rozier out. No need for Primo's not a PG insurance.

In that scenario, you're trying to run a business and can't just eat $100 Million on a team no one wants to watch. And you still have to develop everyone, or else tanking isn't going to stop anytime soon.

[mo7888]

In that scenario you're tanking so should buy Rozier out. No need for Primo's not a PG insurance.

I'm not sure where the cap numbers would be at that point but maybe you could move him on to LA for Westbrook and buy him out to clear cap space for next summer....

[baseline bum]

In that scenario, you're trying to run a business and can't just eat $100 Million on a team no one wants to watch. And you still have to develop everyone, or else tanking isn't going to stop anytime soon.

Yeah crap didn't see it was a 4 year deal, was thinking Rozier was a couple of years. Don't see how Rozier does anything but get in the way of developing guys though.

[BacktoBasics]

So looking at good first round picks:

Pelicans:
2023 - Pelicans have option to switch with Flakers pick
2024 - Pelicans have option on Flakers 2024 or 2025 pick

Knicks:
2023 first round via Detroit (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
2023 first round via Washington (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)
2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)

None of this sounds all that appealing

[rjv]

even with murray, the spurs odds of getting a high lottery pick are already high. this team, as constructed, is not going to make the playoffs in the west. the spurs could finish above the kings, rockets and OKC in the west. But that's about the highest i would place them unless the jazz really plummet or the lakers and blazers are all hurt again.

[baseline bum]

I'm not sure where the cap numbers would be at that point but maybe you could move him on to LA for Westbrook and buy him out to clear cap space for next summer....

Yeah trade him and Gallinari to the Lakers for Westbrook then eat that expiring. Gets the Lakers out of the lottery too so one less team to be worried about tanking against.

[CGD]

They definitely don't, or at least they definitely haven't historically. That doesn't mean they don't believe in trading away older players, but they know it's okay to have a core of a 36-year-old, a 34-year-old, a 30-year-old and a 20-year-old. They were perfectly fine going with a 32-year-old a 26-year-old and a 20-year-old as a core before Leonard asked out. They'd have no issue with a 26-year-old, a 22-year-old and a 19-year-old being a core.

If the Spurs were so smart/confident about the 2023 draft, they would not just be trying to make it work right now. Last summer would have been the time they started working on it rather than trading DeRozan for bad salary and a protected future first. They had loads of cap space and young talent. This arguably the worst time to try to get ping-pong balls for the next draft. Earlier would have been better; latter would be better. Now is just bad unless the Spurs' analysis of another team is just on point.

I just see it differently. These are uncharted waters for the team, or at least since what feels like the 1990s. After Kawhi left, in my view the White, Lonnie, DJ group to build up and flip for value (we’re batting .500 there so far). Keldon and Jakob where unexpected additions flowing from Kawahi’s bitch assness, but they are probably in that group too.

I can see the path to grabbing Ayton now as a good thing. But the real factor here is DJs looming 200M+ max, and whether the team wants to make that solo investment ala WAS with Beal, and if meh sub-stars like Ayton or Collins are worth the near max money to compliment him.

(Btw: A quick look and the 2023 crop doesn’t look too appetizing either even if they were able to open up space then. I wish the crop of FA was better this summer, but it’s not the card we drew)

So basically we are left hoping Vassell or Primo hits from then internal development path now, or giving them more space to grow while rebuilding around them and the 3 young picks while executing on flipping the aforementioned group for as much value as possible.

[Drom John]

So you have no ties to San Antonio or Texas? How do you become a Spurs fans then. If it was a player then that guys long been gone right.
The team moving to Vegas would probably have a completely different identity - team names, colors et all. They wouldn't be hanging the SA banners in their stadium.

It'd be just picking a random team to start rooting for. And if you're in LA you've got two local teams to pick. That's just puzzling to me my man.

The Las Vegas Aces claim the Austin and Salt Lake City Starz. Becky Hammonds' arrival was treated as a homecoming.
The Raiders claim the Oakland and Los Angeles Raiders.

[Chinook]

I just see it differently. These are uncharted waters for the team, or at least since what feels like the 1990s. After Kawhi left, in my view the White, Lonnie, DJ group to build up and flip for value (we’re batting .500 there so far). Keldon and Jakob where unexpected additions flowing from Kawahi’s bitch assness, but they are probably in that group too.

I can see the path to grabbing Ayton now as a good thing. But the real factor here is DJs looming 200M+ max, and whether the team wants to make that solo investment ala WAS with Beal, and if meh sub-stars like Ayton or Collins are worth the near max money to compliment him.

(Btw: A quick look and the 2023 crop doesn’t look too appetizing either even if they were able to open up space then. I wish the crop of FA was better this summer, but it’s not the card we drew)

So basically we are left hoping Vassell or Primo hits from then internal development path now, or giving them more space to grow while rebuilding around them and the 3 young picks while executing on flipping the aforementioned group for as much value as possible.

It's fine that you disagree. I think there's a difference between how a coach structures their scheme and how an FO structure's their roster. Even on a team like the Spurs, I think those are divergent things. The coach is going to structure their game plans after whoever they think their difference-makers are. That means that someone will always be at the center. For the Spurs, that translated into Murray, White, Walker and eventually Johnson being the featured people. That doesn't mean that the front office was "building around them" in the same way the would someone like Duncan. They added guys like McDermott to develop them, but the goal of that wasn't to win as many games as possible. Fans and the marketing team (which is yet another branch in this) wanted to believe that the young guys were a core, and we saw some of them on HEB commercials and everything. But the Spurs' willingness to trade White and entertain offers on Murray and Poeltl indicate they were not of the same mind.

I don't think the Spurs are banking on anyone developing into a franchise player. They've clearly taken a lot of lessons from the modern NBA and likely believe they will have to trade away guys to improve their long-term position. They're trying to make a good team that's flexible and can respond to the market to take advantage of opportunities to acquire elite talent. If Primo is a franchise player, awesome. Now they have the means to build around him. If he's not, it's okay. Trade him. There's no real timeline here. That can happen indefinitely if need be. It can stop tomorrow or go for another decade. If the Spurs are willing to trade Murray, they're willing to trade anyone. That's a much better result than if they were really concerned with timelines and were persuaded into giving a bunch of contracts to their young players in hopes they'd eventually become stars ala Denver and old Memphis.

[exstatic]

Something like:

Murray to ATL

McDermott to Charlotte

Rozier and Gallo to SAS along with ATL's 2023 unprotected firsts and future compensation from there (no need to keep listing that shit) and Charlotte's unprotected pick for 2023.

The Spurs get three unprotected firsts to add in for a chance to win the lotto, but they take on $96M/4 for Terry to make that work. That's a huge burden, even though Rozier isn't a horrible player and would fit okay in the rotation as a partner or insurance for Primo not being a starting PG.

ATL already owns the 2023 CHA FRP, and it’s protections are 1-16,1-14,1-14. Then it devolves to SRPs.

[Mr. Body]

Getting unprotected picks is basically impossible nowadays.

[mo7888]

ATL already owns the 2023 CHA FRP, and it’s protections are 1-16,1-14,1-14. Then it devolves to SRPs.

Charlotte would be giving up their protection to move off that salary was how I took it..

[Chinook]

ATL already owns the 2023 CHA FRP, and it’s protections are 1-16,1-14,1-14. Then it devolves to SRPs.

The reason for roping Charlotte in is so the Spurs can get Charlottes unprotected pick and not just their lotto-protected pick. I don't actually think they're giving up enough in this deal, but I don't know that I'd value the 2023 Denver, and the Hornets shouldn't give up another unprotected pick to make this work.

[CGD]

The reason for roping Charlotte in is so the Spurs can get Charlottes unprotected pick and not just their lotto-protected pick. I don't actually think they're giving up enough in this deal, but I don't know that I'd value the 2023 Denver, and the Hornets shouldn't give up another unprotected pick to make this work.

That Rozier deal, ouch. But you have to think about it if it is in fact a completely protected FRP. Wonder if Hayward wouldnt make for sense if there were a way to make the deal bigger.

[exstatic]

None of this sounds all that appealing

There will be less of those unappealing picks in the offers as his FA period approaches. Part of what is driving this is he’s on a real reasonable contract for two years of team control. That’s no longer the case next summer.

[Drom John]

Top career WS players from 2016 draft class:

11 Domantas Sabonis
27 Paskal Siakim
01 Ben Simmons
09 Jakob Poeltl
05 Ivica Zubac
UN Fred VanVleet
03 Jaylen Brown
36 Malcolm Brogdon
07 Jamal Murray
02 Brandon Ingram
06 Buddy Hield
29 Dejounte Murray

[cjw]

Top career WS players from 2016 draft class:

11 Domantas Sabonis
27 Paskal Siakim
01 Ben Simmons
09 Jakob Poeltl
05 Ivica Zubac
UN Fred VanVleet
03 Jaylen Brown
36 Malcolm Brogdon
07 Jamal Murray
02 Brandon Ingram
06 Buddy Hield
29 Dejounte Murray

That list indicates we should probably retire the stat

[Chinook]

It's not that surprising. People seem to forget that DJM started out as bad as Primo then went years of improving by the eye test but still not statistically before finally becoming a positive player this past year. Some of those guys are just better than him, but most of it is just that they didn't have the same slow start.

[Gibbz]

Any stat that has Ivica Zubac ahead of Jaylen Brown is sus.

[exstatic]

It's not that surprising. People seem to forget that DJM started out as bad as Primo then went years of improving by the eye test but still not statistically before finally becoming a positive player this past year. Some of those guys are just better than him, but most of it is just that they didn't have the same slow start.

DJ also played one less season than all but Jamal Murray and Ben Simmons.

[Seventyniner]

I much prefer WS/48 with minimum total minutes and minutes per game requirements to weed out the low-minute outliers (like 2015-2016 Boban).

[exstatic]

Any stat that has Ivica Zubac ahead of Jaylen Brown is sus.

Clippers just declined his option, and gave him a shiney brand new 3/$33M deal, so perhaps they’re better at talent evaluation than you. I was fucking pissed off when the Lakers fucking GAVE him to the Clippers after his rookie year.

[cjw]

Clippers just declined his option, and gave him a shiney brand new 3/$33M deal, so perhaps they’re better at talent evaluation than you. I was fucking pissed off when the Lakers fucking GAVE him to the Clippers after his rookie year.

He’s a perfectly fine center who can be a 1a or 1b at the position. A lot better than many alternatives and that contract is very reasonable.

When the Lakers gave him away I was dumbfounded. No idea what they were doing. For friggen Mike Muscala (and to dump Beasley?)

[objective]

That's not the rumored trade. The rumor was that the trade would involve Gallo and picks -- and no, not three picks and not protected picks; that's from a completely unrelated rumor. It's the edging folks who assume that must be the entire trade since it fits their worldview that SA gets destroyed in trades. It also ignores the other rumors we've heard about what the Spurs actually want versus what Atlanta wants to give. The narrative that one builds out of these pieces, and the reasons why one created that narrative are obviously part of normal discourse. Free speech also entails free criticism of bad takes. That's what I'm doing here. People are giving bad takes with bad information, and I'm pointing that out.

1) No, the Leonard trade wasn't worse then the rumored trade with Toronto

2) No, recent history doesn't show the Spurs taking bad trades

3) No, Collins being replaced with Gallo is not a sign the value went down, as the Spurs weren't getting Collins in the previous rumor either.

Point that out isn't curbing discussion unless the discussion is contingent on parroting falsehoods. I'm constantly critical of the Spurs; being so here is a perfectly fine discussion stance. That's not a shield against misreading tweets though.

You aren't correcting bad information. You might think you are, but you aren't.

People see a rumor and react. The reaction given is a conditional, as in IF that's the trade, THEN here's what the response is.

I usually do put in qualifiers, more than most posters. But sometimes I don't, feeling that most good posters can figure it out. But they're there even if I don't put them. IF _____, THEN _____, FURTHERMORE __________. HOWEVER _________. Etc

And what's up with, "But you ignored other rumors!". So? It's a response to one rumor. IF this ONE rumor plays out in reality, THEN my reaction to that is THIS. Does everyone need to incorporate every rumor at every time in the past and future to have a reaction on a discussion board?

I don't have the numbers, but it feels like this forum has been busier than it has in years, and had been more fun with more draft discussion. Why be a buzz kill and forum police? And sometimes people inject rhetorical flourishes, jokes, etc to have FUN in a discussion board.

Did you know that when the Spurs sign camp body and someone posts "Power Shift!" or "They Scared Now!" or some other in-joke or meme you don't have to parachute in to Chinook up the thread with, "This narrative of a camp contract as being the key to the title is false. Here's 500 words why."

If someone jokes, "Just like the Spurs always do!" after they sign a player with a bulbous forehead, they don't REALLY mean that EVERY player ever signed or drafted had a bulbous forehead, it's a joke and part of the discourse. You might feel like defending the Spurs honor and correcting the record by pointing out players drafted without bulbous heads, but it's not necessary. It's really not.

1. I don't know what Toronto rumor you're talking about, I don't remember it, but even if there was a rumor that Toronto wanted a pick, what point do you think you're making? That someone thinking giving a pick in the deal would be bad .... Would be wrong to think so? That they couldn't respond to that rumor without a lecture?

2. That's your opinion. Just that.

3. The point was about the raised guarantee that was rumored. And to me, IF Gallo had more guaranteed money paid by the Spurs, THEN that would be funny and not good, to have to pay more than the previous guarantee.

[Eaglenole2002]

Jake Fischer on Dunc’d On said the most recent he has heard is that John Collins is back in the talks to head to SA if Dejounte goes to ATL

[JPB]

You aren't correcting bad information. You might think you are, but you aren't.

People see a rumor and react. The reaction given is a conditional, as in IF that's the trade, THEN here's what the response is.

I usually do put in qualifiers, more than most posters. But sometimes I don't, feeling that most good posters can figure it out. But they're there even if I don't put them. IF _____, THEN _____, FURTHERMORE __________. HOWEVER _________. Etc

And what's up with, "But you ignored other rumors!". So? It's a response to one rumor. IF this ONE rumor plays out in reality, THEN my reaction to that is THIS. Does everyone need to incorporate every rumor at every time in the past and future to have a reaction on a discussion board?

I don't have the numbers, but it feels like this forum has been busier than it has in years, and had been more fun with more draft discussion. Why be a buzz kill and forum police? And sometimes people inject rhetorical flourishes, jokes, etc to have FUN in a discussion board.

Did you know that when the Spurs sign camp body and someone posts "Power Shift!" or "They Scared Now!" or some other in-joke or meme you don't have to parachute in to Chinook up the thread with, "This narrative of a camp contract as being the key to the title is false. Here's 500 words why."

If someone jokes, "Just like the Spurs always do!" after they sign a player with a bulbous forehead, they don't REALLY mean that EVERY player ever signed or drafted had a bulbous forehead, it's a joke and part of the discourse. You might feel like defending the Spurs honor and correcting the record by pointing out players drafted without bulbous heads, but it's not necessary. It's really not.

1. I don't know what Toronto rumor you're talking about, I don't remember it, but even if there was a rumor that Toronto wanted a pick, what point do you think you're making? That someone thinking giving a pick in the deal would be bad .... Would be wrong to think so? That they couldn't respond to that rumor without a lecture?

2. That's your opinion. Just that.

3. The point was about the raised guarantee that was rumored. And to me, IF Gallo had more guaranteed money paid by the Spurs, THEN that would be funny and not good, to have to pay more than the previous guarantee.


Yeah, you sometimes feel you'd have to always write in blue font... NO need to take everything too serioulsy or first degree. Most people I guess come as much for the fun of arguing, sometimes being sarcastic or caricaturing just for the sake of it, trying to feel like you're so smart and get it, drinking your coffee in front of your laptop...

Take any poster and over time, you'll find them posting everything and its opposite. I know I do and, like litterally ANY poster, I post a lot of crap and eventually here or there a couple things that make sense... Then eventually common sense triumphs...

:pop: "It's only Basketball"

[spurraider21]

Clippers just declined his option, and gave him a shiney brand new 3/$33M deal, so perhaps they’re better at talent evaluation than you. I was fucking pissed off when the Lakers fucking GAVE him to the Clippers after his rookie year.
Gibbz says Jaylen Brown is a better player than Ivica Zubac.

the clippers give zubac a deal that is much less than what jaylen is making and your takeaway from that is that Gibbz is wrong with his evaluation? weird

[Chinook]

You aren't correcting bad information. You might think you are, but you aren't.

I am, like,


1. I don't know what Toronto rumor you're talking about, I don't remember it, but even if there was a rumor that Toronto wanted a pick, what point do you think you're making? That someone thinking giving a pick in the deal would be bad .... Would be wrong to think so? That they couldn't respond to that rumor without a lecture?

So the rumors of the Toronto trade originally had the Spurs giving up the pick for Poeltl. Most of us thought that was absurd and completely wrote off the rumor in favor of the flashier ideas like Boston, Philly and LAC. It turns out, the rumor was wrong -- the pick went the other way -- but they were clearly on point about the talks. To say the Toronto trade was worse than the rumors is wrong. It was worse than the fantasy trades involving other teams (like both picks and Harris for Kawhi from LAC, Brown and Tatum and Boston, Simmons, Covington and 10 from Philly), and if you want to argue that the other packages that were actually rumored to be offered (12 and non-Harris filler, Covington and Saric, Deng, Ingram, Hart and a pick) that's another thing. But we aren't talking about every trade idea right now. We're talking about how to interpret the Atlanta rumor. Folks like you keep creating hypotheticals that aren't based in what is in the tweets, assuming that's what's being discussed and using that to create a strawman of what the front office is like to complain.


2. That's your opinion. Just that.

My opinion has better support. Yes, you can put your head in the sand and cry about you having a right to believe whatever. I don't give a shit. But if you're going to come into a forum and throw the point out there, it's going to get challenged, and complaining about you not being able to say whatever without being criticized is just whining.



3. The point was about the raised guarantee that was rumored. And to me, IF Gallo had more guaranteed money paid by the Spurs, THEN that would be funny and not good, to have to pay more than the previous guarantee.

He's raising his guaranteed to make the trade possible. That is good for the Spurs, because the Hawks could just guarantee the whole thing. That they're talking to him would suggest the Spurs would only take the minimum salary necessary, which is just better than taking an extra few million.

So yeah, this is why a lot of this is based on bad information and a bad-faith interpretation.


And what's up with, "But you ignored other rumors!". So? It's a response to one rumor.

No, it's not. The rumor that Gallo is part of the trade doesn't say anything about three picks or picks being protected. That came from different rumors. You're talking "Collins plus three picks" plus "Hawks wanted to lottery protect the picks but the Spurs said no", plus "The new package includes Gallinari and picks" and creating "The Spurs are deciding whether to take a package of Gallinari and three protected picks". That doesn't make sense. There's zero reason to believe the Spurs are losing ground in the negotiation to where they went from Collins and three picks was enough to believing there's a risk of the Hawks getting him for bad salary and protected firsts. The only reason to believe they did that is that you believe the Spurs inherently cave on their trades and make bad deals. That's why actually looking at recent history and seeing that not bearing out matters.


If someone jokes, "Just like the Spurs always do!" after they sign a player with a bulbous forehead, they don't REALLY mean that EVERY player ever signed or drafted had a bulbous forehead, it's a joke and part of the discourse. You might feel like defending the Spurs honor and correcting the record by pointing out players drafted without bulbous heads, but it's not necessary. It's really not.

I don't give a shit about the fun the edgies want to have. You don't become that way if you don't inherently like drama. There are tons of folks who don't agree with the way the Spurs go, and that typically manifests in them not bitch-festing all over the site. We're not in prime edging territory where guys are making a million threads to complain, and I'm grateful. But there are people who legit think they're making serious contributions to the discussion (like you), and that's what I'm commenting on. I've been on this forum long enough to know the difference between trolling and bad takes.


I don't have the numbers, but it feels like this forum has been busier than it has in years, and had been more fun with more draft discussion. Why be a buzz kill and forum police? And sometimes people inject rhetorical flourishes, jokes, etc to have FUN in a discussion board.

Did you know that when the Spurs sign camp body and someone posts "Power Shift!" or "They Scared Now!" or some other in-joke or meme you don't have to parachute in to Chinook up the thread with, "This narrative of a camp contract as being the key to the title is false. Here's 500 words why."


Simultaneously trying argue "Let posters post how they want to" and "Stop posting like you want to" at the same time is ridiculous. People will post as they wish, I'll criticize when I see fit, and you can critique that criticism if you want to. That seems fair

[Chinook]

Yeah, you sometimes feel you'd have to always write in blue font... NO need to take everything too serioulsy or first degree. Most people I guess come as much for the fun of arguing, sometimes being sarcastic or caricaturing just for the sake of it, trying to feel like you're so smart and get it, drinking your coffee in front of your laptop...

Take any poster and over time, you'll find them posting everything and its opposite. I know I do and, like litterally ANY poster, I post a lot of crap and eventually here or there a couple things that make sense... Then eventually common sense triumphs...

:pop: "It's only Basketball"

ST is a great place because most of the disputes get resolved without the need for moderation. A place like RealGM makes their mods police the topics and manner of discussion, and the forum feels stilted because of it. Some legit terrible things have happened on the site, like posters being bullied off the forum or getting way to personal and trying to dox people and probably worse things that I can't remember. But we are able to have these conversations, butt heads, find common ground and laugh about it as we move on with our lives. I wouldn't say that it's innately unserious, though. Most of the time we talk about sports and shit that isn't real-life. But there have been personal things on here too. Most of them I won't bring up out of respect, but that recent thread about BillMc comes to mind. I don't think (or least hope it's not the case that) we all know each other in real life just because we talk here. But I do think we realize that we're all people (and one water fowl) and share at least a common interest in the Spurs and at least share a world that we all have to live in, so there's only so much emotion you can put into convincing someone your opinion on basketball is better than theirs.

I used to do a thread where we all posted our worst take of the year. Maybe we can bring one of those back after during that lull between the summer league and international play. I have plenty of bad takes in my posting history (which I can't even edit now), and my shit isn't any more fragrant than anyone else's. Not to mention I make a ton of typos that I used to be able to catch but now just have to live with.

[gospursgojas]

Taureen Price signs extension out of nowhere. Move to make salaries work? ��

[Chinook]

Taureen Price signs extension out of nowhere. Move to make salaries work? ��

Hmmm, you might be onto something. As far as I can tell, the Wolves have to wait until the new year to trade him now, but they are able to send him along with his 1-and-1 contract rather than having to give him a 1-and-2 contract in a sign-and-trade. That's more palatable for other teams. Also, it gives the Wolves immediate option value to trade him or keep him. If he had been a free agent, he'd be prevented from being traded until 12/15.


95. Can a player be given an extension and traded at the same time?Similar to a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 92 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92)), a team may sign an eligible player to an extension (see question number 58 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58)) and immediately trade him to another team. Such an "extend-and-trade" is limited to three seasons, which include any seasons remaining on the player's current contract1. The salary in the first season of the extension can have a 5% raise over the last season of the existing contract, and subsequent raises are limited to 5% of the salary in the first season of the extension. The 5% limit also applies to both likely and unlikely bonuses.A player cannot be traded in an extend-and-trade after the season (for example, on draft day) in the last season of his contract, or in any season that might be the last season due to an option or ETO.Since an extend-and-trade has greater limits than a regular extension (three seasons2 and 5% raises vs. four seasons2 and 8% raises) the rules restrict teams from extending and trading the player in separate transactions in order to circumvent these limits. If a team extends a player beyond the limits of an extend-and-trade (for example, if they sign a player to a four-year extension), they can't trade the player for six months. Conversely, a team cannot extend a player it receives in trade for six months, if the extension exceeds the limits of an extend-and-trade3.Extend-and-trade transactions are rare. To date they have only been used for Kevin Garnett (traded from Minnesota to Boston in 2007) and Carmelo Anthony (traded from Denver to New York in 2011).A rookie scale contract (see question number 47 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q47)) can be extended and traded in an extend-and-trade transaction, although there is no benefit to doing so. A rookie scale extension can be signed immediately after the player is traded (such as with James Harden's trade to the Rockets in 2012), and a rookie scale extension (see question number 58 (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58)) can be much larger than the extension allowed through an extend-and-trade.

1
The current season counts as one full year, even if the extension is signed as late as June 30. So if a contract is extended on June 30 with one full season remaining, only one new season can be added to the contract with an extend-and-trade.


2
Including the remaining seasons on the existing contract.


3
This does not apply to extensions of rookie scale contracts. For example, the Oklahoma City Thunder traded James Harden to the Houston Rockets on October 27, 2012, and the Rockets signed him to an extension four days later.




http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92

[Chinook]

Not that it means Murray's involved, but this does feel like a deal that Minny is making to give themselves a chance to make a trade.

[RC_Drunkford]

Especially if the 2nd year is not fully guaranteed

[spurraider21]

can we lock this thread so we dont have 2 separate murray threads in addition to the general free agency threads?

[Chinook]

can we lock this thread so we dont have 2 separate murray threads in addition to the general free agency threads?


https://makeagif.com/amp/bDP7aL
https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2021/bDP7aL.gif

You know timvp is going to post a new article with its own thread soon.

[CGD]

Taureen Price signs extension out of nowhere. Move to make salaries work? ��

As an aside, I think this is what we should do with Jakob.

[Chinook]

As an aside, I think this is what we should do with Jakob.

Can't until like November. Then they can offer up to $50M/4. If the takes that, they wouldn't be able to trade him until after the season.

[spurraider21]

https://makeagif.com/amp/bDP7aL
https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-11-2021/bDP7aL.gif
:lol tbh

[objective]

I am, like,



So the rumors of the Toronto trade originally had the Spurs giving up the pick for Poeltl. Most of us thought that was absurd and completely wrote off the rumor in favor of the flashier ideas like Boston, Philly and LAC. It turns out, the rumor was wrong -- the pick went the other way -- but they were clearly on point about the talks. To say the Toronto trade was worse than the rumors is wrong. It was worse than the fantasy trades involving other teams (like both picks and Harris for Kawhi from LAC, Brown and Tatum and Boston, Simmons, Covington and 10 from Philly), and if you want to argue that the other packages that were actually rumored to be offered (12 and non-Harris filler, Covington and Saric, Deng, Ingram, Hart and a pick) that's another thing. But we aren't talking about every trade idea right now. We're talking about how to interpret the Atlanta rumor. Folks like you keep creating hypotheticals that aren't based in what is in the tweets, assuming that's what's being discussed and using that to create a strawman of what the front office is like to complain.



My opinion has better support. Yes, you can put your head in the sand and cry about you having a right to believe whatever. I don't give a shit. But if you're going to come into a forum and throw the point out there, it's going to get challenged, and complaining about you not being able to say whatever without being criticized is just whining.




He's raising his guaranteed to make the trade possible. That is good for the Spurs, because the Hawks could just guarantee the whole thing. That they're talking to him would suggest the Spurs would only take the minimum salary necessary, which is just better than taking an extra few million.

So yeah, this is why a lot of this is based on bad information and a bad-faith interpretation.



No, it's not. The rumor that Gallo is part of the trade doesn't say anything about three picks or picks being protected. That came from different rumors. You're talking "Collins plus three picks" plus "Hawks wanted to lottery protect the picks but the Spurs said no", plus "The new package includes Gallinari and picks" and creating "The Spurs are deciding whether to take a package of Gallinari and three protected picks". That doesn't make sense. There's zero reason to believe the Spurs are losing ground in the negotiation to where they went from Collins and three picks was enough to believing there's a risk of the Hawks getting him for bad salary and protected firsts. The only reason to believe they did that is that you believe the Spurs inherently cave on their trades and make bad deals. That's why actually looking at recent history and seeing that not bearing out matters.



I don't give a shit about the fun the edgies want to have. You don't become that way if you don't inherently like drama. There are tons of folks who don't agree with the way the Spurs go, and that typically manifests in them not bitch-festing all over the site. We're not in prime edging territory where guys are making a million threads to complain, and I'm grateful. But there are people who legit think they're making serious contributions to the discussion (like you), and that's what I'm commenting on. I've been on this forum long enough to know the difference between trolling and bad takes.



Simultaneously trying argue "Let posters post how they want to" and "Stop posting like you want to" at the same time is ridiculous. People will post as they wish, I'll criticize when I see fit, and you can critique that criticism if you want to. That seems fair

Lol

You're more wrong than ever, but that's your deal.

Moving on

[Chinook]

Lol

You're more wrong than ever, but that's your deal.

Moving on

Yeah, because the best way to "move on" is to take a jab and run.

[DAF86]

Imho, fuck trading Murray. I want to see how good this team can be next season with one more year of development of Murray, Keldon, Vassell and Poeltl and the additions of the new guys. I want to see the defensive lineup of Murray, Vassell, Sochan and Poeltl.

Also, Murray's numbers are likely to go up. I wouldn't put it past him to average around 25, 9 and 9, tbh. His stock is only going to get higher. If things don't go according to plan record wise, you can always trade Murray mid-season.

[slick'81]

Imho, fuck trading Murray. I want to see how good this team can be next season with one more year of development of Murray, Keldon, Vassell and Poeltl and the additions of the new guys. I want to see the defensive lineup of Murray, Vassell, Sochan and Poeltl.

Also, Murray's numbers are likely to go up. I wouldn't put it past him to average around 25, 9 and 9, tbh. His stock is only going to get higher. If things don't go according to plan record wise, you can always trade Murray mid-season.


dont worry. Murray isnt going anywhere unless spurs get exactly what they want

[mo7888]

dont worry. Murray isnt going anywhere unless spurs get exactly what they want

Yep...

[RC_Drunkford]

Imho, fuck trading Murray. I want to see how good this team can be next season with one more year of development of Murray, Keldon, Vassell and Poeltl and the additions of the new guys. I want to see the defensive lineup of Murray, Vassell, Sochan and Poeltl.

Also, Murray's numbers are likely to go up. I wouldn't put it past him to average around 25, 9 and 9, tbh. His stock is only going to get higher. If things don't go according to plan record wise, you can always trade Murray mid-season.

same here. Would you add any pieces in FA or via trade? Cause running it back ain't enough to me, they would have to at least bring in 1 starter

[objective]

Yeah, because the best way to "move on" is to take a jab and run.

What's the run? What's the jab?

We obviously think the other is wrong. It's EITHER keep on doing the back and forth with word counts going up and up in pedantic nonsense, or it ends. With both thinking the other is 100% wrong. You are wrong. Is that a jab? Should I just write, "Moving On"? Or nothing? You might think you had convinced me, so I want the record to be no agreement other than disagreement

I quoted you so you'd see that I think you're still wrong but this conversation can end, and given your last post you think I'm wrong. I seem to remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, you once getting bent out of shape for not quoting you in a thread you were posting in, that I just assumed you'd see. I think that was in the same argument where you accused me of lying about posting quickly in mobile because I was able to type out the characters that generated a laughing emoji. But it was as simple as adding a : to lol, or maybe before and after.

I don't remember what the Spurs related issue was that time.

So for you, I quoted you so you'd see, I think you're wrong, you've made it clear in 1000 words that you think I'm wrong, and I'm not interested in going forward with quotes back and forth when it will just be more of the same.

That's it

And if I'm remembering incorrectly anything to do with you and quotes or emojis, then I apologize

[DAF86]

same here. Would you add any pieces in FA or via trade? Cause running it back ain't enough to me, they would have to at least bring in 1 starter

Sure. They badly need to add three point shooting. But three point shooting that can help in other areas. No more Forbes or McDermotts.

[John B]

Imho, fuck trading Murray. I want to see how good this team can be next season with one more year of development of Murray, Keldon, Vassell and Poeltl and the additions of the new guys. I want to see the defensive lineup of Murray, Vassell, Sochan and Poeltl.

Also, Murray's numbers are likely to go up. I wouldn't put it past him to average around 25, 9 and 9, tbh. His stock is only going to get higher. If things don't go according to plan record wise, you can always trade Murray mid-season.

I doubt DJ’s numbers are going to get higher, if you expect Vassell, Keldon, Poeltl and Primo to get better. There’s only so much possession and points to make. Plus by mid-season the only teams that would be betting his services are contenders who like to add a little help to boost them on the next level, hence low picks and relatively bad assets/trades returns. With also less teams competing, it lowers the bidding. IF the Spurs are moving DJ, right now is the best time when multiple teams are bidding for him and fresh from AS, steals leader, etc.

DJ would ask for Max contract in two years. And personally, I doubt his worth the Max contract, not for his flawed offensive game. He doesn’t attack the basket enough to earn him trips to the FT line. He doesn’t have a go-to move besides elbow shots that are easily defended on close games and playoffs. He is going to walk and by then his stocks would be so much less. I do not fault him to seek greener pasture. Hence the Spurs need to do what they have to do to get maximum return. It wasn’t too long ago that nephew left the Spurs with marginal return. I think the FO learned their lesson well.

[RC_Drunkford]

Sure. They badly need to add three point shooting. But three point shooting that can help in other areas. No more Forbes or McDermotts.

I got a trade for OG or John Collins and pursuing Ayton in FA at the top of my list. People seem to think John Collins is a bad player, but he's not. He's playing on a team that has to watch Trae Young handle the ball for most of the shotclock and then play traffic cone defense on the other end while they have to cover for him. Collins also doesn't get enough usage while being super efficient and is a good help defender and secondary rim protector. Him not having a market right now should make it very easy for us to get him for next to nothing since ATL just wants to salary dump him. When DJ is up for his extension Collins would have 2 years left on his deal and probably average better numbers on the Spurs than on the Hawks last season. They could easily trade him once Sochan is ready

[Chinook]

What's the run? What's the jab?

I don't have any issue with agreeing to disagree, and I'll just say here that I apologize if I misinterpreted what you meant.


you once getting bent out of shape for not quoting you in a thread you were posting in, that I just assumed you'd see.

I don't know about that. I could imagine a situation where I was annoyed that you expected me to take something you said as a direct reply to me without posting. I could also have been genuinely confused in a case where I missed something because of jumping between threads. It's not something that I remember, and I haven't held a grudge or whatever that incident.

You're a good poster, Obj. I don't always agree with you, but I appreciate how much effort you put into your analyses of players. I learn quite a bit from reading your scouting reports, or at least I gain some perspective. I truly do think you're one of the posters that make the forum as great as it is, along with guys like DeJounte and Drom and Ace and BM20 who do the yeoman's work of providing content for us to talk about. As far as I'm concerned, we don't have a beef. I apologize if I gave that impression. I'm not going to stop giving my opinion, including criticizing trends that I see in the forum. I also won't write shorter messages if I think longer ones are needed. But yeah, I fully acknowledge that you're allowed to have a different opinion, and past a certain point, I'm not going to try to change it.

[Chinook]

I think that was in the same argument where you accused me of lying about posting quickly in mobile because I was able to type out the characters that generated a laughing emoji.

Although I will say I have no idea what that could have been from.

[DesignatedT]

Signing Ayton and trading Poeltl for OG would make this team pretty exciting.

[DAF86]

I doubt DJ’s numbers are going to get higher, if you expect Vassell, Keldon, Poeltl and Primo to get better. There’s only so much possession and points to make. Plus by mid-season the only teams that would be betting his services are contenders who like to add a little help to boost them on the next level, hence low picks and relatively bad assets/trades returns. With also less teams competing, it lowers the bidding. IF the Spurs are moving DJ, right now is the best time when multiple teams are bidding for him and fresh from AS, steals leader, etc.

DJ would ask for Max contract in two years. And personally, I doubt his worth the Max contract, not for his flawed offensive game. He doesn’t attack the basket enough to earn him trips to the FT line. He doesn’t have a go-to move besides elbow shots that are easily defended on close games and playoffs. He is going to walk and by then his stocks would be so much less. I do not fault him to seek greener pasture. Hence the Spurs need to do what they have to do to get maximum return. It wasn’t too long ago that nephew left the Spurs with marginal return. I think the FO learned their lesson well.

DJ's numbers got higher in the second half of the season. It wouldn't be crazy to think he could replicate that. In fact, that's probably what's going to happen. Also, getting better doesn't necessarily mean scoring a lot more points. Vassell, for example, could get better by becoming an all-defense type player. Furthermore, there isn't such thing as "so much points to make", the Spurs could improve their scoring as a whole by everybody imrpoving a bit from the previous season.

The argument of the trade assets and biding decreasing mid-season is pretty off too, imho. The teams wanting to trade for Murray are likely going to be the about the same that want to trade for him now. And yeah, all of them will be teams with playoffs aspirations. The difference is that teams during the season might be more inclined in going all in and accepting to trade a couple of unprotected FRP down the road.

[RC_Drunkford]

Signing Ayton and trading Poeltl for OG would make this team pretty exciting.

that's why you can bet on it never happening :lol I'm pretty sure it hasn't even crossed the Spurs' mind

[Chinook]

Sure. They badly need to add three point shooting. But three point shooting that can help in other areas. No more Forbes or McDermotts.

I don't see that. I think they badly need their main guys to be able to shoot threes. We'll see if Murray explodes, but right now, he's not good enough to where everyone just plays off him. He has to be part of the group. I don't know if there's a big problem with the individuals shooting threes. I think it's more the lack of structure in the offense means there isn't a stable number of three-point looks. Simply adding spacers (even ones who can do other things to help) won't make a big difference if the offense is guys going one on one then looking to pass.

Murray,
Primo
Vassell
Johnson
Poeltl

Jones
Richardson
McDermott
Sochan
Collins

Those are the lineups. I'd say there are three non-shooters and two developing shooters. I don't see any of Poeltl, Jones or Sochan being replaced by "shooters" that aren't just full upgrades. It's better to hope that Jones and Sochan just learn to shoot. Murray and Collins are definitely in that camp where they can almost shoot well enough to fit in but need to improve a bit more.

I only see the team being able to truly upgrade by getting a shooting PG (assuming they don't sign a star in free agency or make a big trade to shake up the roster).

[DAF86]

I got a trade for OG or John Collins and pursuing Ayton in FA at the top of my list. People seem to think John Collins is a bad player, but he's not. He's playing on a team that has to watch Trae Young handle the ball for most of the shotclock and then play traffic cone defense on the other end while they have to cover for him. Collins also doesn't get enough usage while being super efficient and is a good help defender and secondary rim protector. Him not having a market right now should make it very easy for us to get him for next to nothing since ATL just wants to salary dump him. When DJ is up for his extension Collins would have 2 years left on his deal and probably average better numbers on the Spurs than on the Hawks last season. They could easily trade him once Sochan is ready

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I would rather have Myles Turner than Ayton. Better defender and floor spacer.

[scott]

I doubt DJ’s numbers are going to get higher, if you expect Vassell, Keldon, Poeltl and Primo to get better. There’s only so much possession and points to make. Plus by mid-season the only teams that would be betting his services are contenders who like to add a little help to boost them on the next level, hence low picks and relatively bad assets/trades returns. With also less teams competing, it lowers the bidding. IF the Spurs are moving DJ, right now is the best time when multiple teams are bidding for him and fresh from AS, steals leader, etc.

DJ would ask for Max contract in two years. And personally, I doubt his worth the Max contract, not for his flawed offensive game. He doesn’t attack the basket enough to earn him trips to the FT line. He doesn’t have a go-to move besides elbow shots that are easily defended on close games and playoffs. He is going to walk and by then his stocks would be so much less. I do not fault him to seek greener pasture. Hence the Spurs need to do what they have to do to get maximum return. It wasn’t too long ago that nephew left the Spurs with marginal return. I think the FO learned their lesson well.

DJ averaged 25p/9a/8r after the ASG last season. So even if he just keeps on that pace... his numbers will be better.

[cjw]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I would rather have Myles Turner than Ayton. Better defender and floor spacer.

In a vacuum I don’t disagree

But you can’t get Turner without giving up other guys on the roster

[Chinook]

Also Turner is a legit injury risk. I don't know that he's positive value on a new contract.

[RC_Drunkford]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I would rather have Myles Turner than Ayton. Better defender and floor spacer.

He would fit, but I wouldn‘t want to trade for him. I‘d trade for a PF and if you can’t get Ayton just keep Poeltl

[BatManu20]

Spurstalk is the new Woj.

1541976153623232515

[John B]

Spurstalk is the new Woj.

1541976153623232515

:bobo

[Dverde]

Spurs are going to want four 1st rounders and David Putney.

[Mr. Body]

Oh yeah, how about five picks?

[Chinook]

I think this shows how little credibility NBA Twitter really has. No shade on LJ, but he's just a dude posting as far as these guys are concerned. That these accounts are so keen to pass along this rumor makes me basically disregard anything they post.

[Chinook]

Oh yeah, how about five picks?

https://www.spursdynasty.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pop-counting-rings.gif

[Chinook]

Although this is my personal favorite gif for trade demands:

https://c.tenor.com/Nuk1hDYmsgYAAAAd/kobe-bryant.gif

[Robz4000]

Now they want all the draft picks.

[spurs1990]

I think this shows how little credibility NBA Twitter really has. No shade on LJ, but he's just a dude posting as far as these guys are concerned. That these accounts are so keen to pass along this rumor makes me basically disregard anything they post.

But Timvp is a legit source. He’s written about his sources inside the team. The other website owner Kori Ellis was on Spurs feedback radio shows in the early 2000s. I distinctly hearing her commentary. The trade talk makes every bit of sense. Murray wants a healthy max and can’t get it until ‘24. San Antonio would have to choose from 1)gambling on if Murray chooses them and 2) if he’s worth that much.

[Chinook]

But Timvp is a legit source. He’s written about his sources inside the team. The other website owner Kori Ellis was on Spurs feedback radio shows in the early 2000s. I distinctly hearing her commentary. The trade talk makes every bit of sense. Murray wants a healthy max and can’t get it until ‘24. San Antonio would have to choose from 1)gambling on if Murray chooses them and 2) if he’s worth that much.

I'm not calling timvp's credibility into question. I think he does his work and doesn't overstate what he's heard. But I don't think the Twitter accounts have the same experience as we do with him. They're just parroting gossip.

[Leetonidas]

Spurstalk is the new Woj.

1541976153623232515
We made it :cry

[TD 21]

People seem to think John Collins is a bad player, but he's not.

He's inarguably a good player, but teams want 3.5's to play the 4. If not that, then a 4.5 whose a floor spacing rim protector.

As neither archetype, he's an awkward fit in today's game, with a big long term salary and a team that understandably doesn't just want to salary dump him.



I don't see that. I think they badly need their main guys to be able to shoot threes.
Murray,
Primo
Vassell
Johnson
Poeltl

Jones
Richardson
McDermott
Sochan
Collins

Those are the lineups.

Yeah, that's long been an issue. Playing defensive sieve floor spacers in outsized roles doesn't resolve it, it just tanks the defense.

No reason to think Primo starts over McDermott. If he makes a quantum leap, he's probably the 6th man though.

[slick'81]

Spurs are never getting that haul. Itll be a long summer with endless trade speculation for a deal that more then likely will never happen

[The Truth #6]

They’re starting the negotiations from a good position. Question is will they compromise to get a deal done.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

I'm not calling timvp's credibility into question. I think he does his work and doesn't overstate what he's heard. But I don't think the Twitter accounts have the same experience as we do with him. They're just parroting gossip.

Nah i think timvp is a known entity. And the twitter account straight-up cited spurstalk.com so it's weird to cite that particular tweet as showing nba twitter has little cred





Why do you hate SpursTalk?

[offset formation]

I don't see that. I think they badly need their main guys to be able to shoot threes. We'll see if Murray explodes, but right now, he's not good enough to where everyone just plays off him. He has to be part of the group. I don't know if there's a big problem with the individuals shooting threes. I think it's more the lack of structure in the offense means there isn't a stable number of three-point looks. Simply adding spacers (even ones who can do other things to help) won't make a big difference if the offense is guys going one on one then looking to pass.

Murray,
Primo
Vassell
Johnson
Poeltl

Jones
Richardson
McDermott
Sochan
Collins

Those are the lineups. I'd say there are three non-shooters and two developing shooters. I don't see any of Poeltl, Jones or Sochan being replaced by "shooters" that aren't just full upgrades. It's better to hope that Jones and Sochan just learn to shoot. Murray and Collins are definitely in that camp where they can almost shoot well enough to fit in but need to improve a bit more.

I only see the team being able to truly upgrade by getting a shooting PG (assuming they don't sign a star in free agency or make a big trade to shake up the roster).

Your starting lineup is jacked. Keldon isn't a 4. Primo isn't a 2, at least according to what timvp reported. And he's not really a 2 either. Vassell while flexible enough to play the SG, is probably also best suited as a 3.

I guess we'll have to see what we see from Primo this summer.

[BatManu20]

Pop really isn’t handling these trade rumors well.

1541931718948569093

[John B]

Pop really isn’t handling these trade rumors well.

1541931718948569093

:lmao

[offset formation]

Further proof we live in a holographic universe and our coders run out of faces and have to regurgitate the same ones once every so often. We all have our doppelganger or three out there somewhere.