Should Spurs make a run at Scoot?

[rascal]

Scoot is fucking incredible, I don't understand why he isn't 100% clearly the consensus #2 pick. Disaster franchises like Charlotte should be thankful to have the opportunity to draft him.

Scoot even lead his team to victory over Wemby's team when they played.

Scoot is strong and built like a tank.

[rascal]

Why would Charlotte want him?

He's the best player available after Wemby.

They can move Ball to the 2 and if he bitches trade him. They would be better off without him anyways and rebuilding.

[szkorhetz]

Scoot is fucking incredible, I don't understand why he isn't 100% clearly the consensus #2 pick. Disaster franchises like Charlotte should be thankful to have the opportunity to draft him.
He can't shoot. At all.

[exstatic]

He's the best player available after Wemby.

They can move Ball to the 2 and if he bitches trade him. They would be better off without him anyways and rebuilding.

Always pick the big creator over the small. LaMelo IS already an All Star. You don't push that out of the way for a mid shooting midget.

[Extra Stout]

Isn’t free throw percentage used as a proxy metric for a player’s potential to learn how to shoot? I read that Scoot shot 76% from the line.

I can understand preferring sharpshooting guards with which to surround Wemby, especially with Sochan already being a shaky shooter. I don’t understand how that extrapolates out to “Scoot Henderson would be trash on any team.” Would a Russell Westbrook with a higher BBIQ suck in today’s NBA? I’m assuming Scoot has a higher IQ because I remember well Good Russ vs. Bad Russ of the 2010’s Thunder.

[rascal]

Always pick the big creator over the small. LaMelo IS already an All Star. You don't push that out of the way for a mid shooting midget.

So you would draft Miller over Scoot.

You've been wrong so many times before, go ahead and be wrong again.

[spurraider21]

Always pick the big creator over the small. LaMelo IS already an All Star. You don't push that out of the way for a mid shooting midget.
You’d have taken beasley over rose lmao

[JPB]

Scoot even lead his team to victory over Wemby's team when they played.

Scoot is strong and built like a tank.

He got outplayed by Wemby in the first game and barely played in the second after getting injured. Not because Wemby's teammates are scrubs that it makes Scoot stronger.

[exstatic]

Isn’t free throw percentage used as a proxy metric for a player’s potential to learn how to shoot? I read that Scoot shot 76% from the line.

I can understand preferring sharpshooting guards with which to surround Wemby, especially with Sochan already being a shaky shooter. I don’t understand how that extrapolates out to “Scoot Henderson would be trash on any team.” Would a Russell Westbrook with a higher BBIQ suck in today’s NBA? I’m assuming Scoot has a higher IQ because I remember well Good Russ vs. Bad Russ of the 2010’s Thunder.

76% is not elite FT shooting. It probably means that his 3G% is accurate. Hell, Wemby shot 83%, which is why i have zero worries about his 3 pointer coming around. He just needs to stop shooting the ridiculous one footed runners, and shoot from a solid two legged base, and he'll probably shoot around 36%.

[exstatic]

So you would draft Miller over Scoot.

You've been wrong so many times before, go ahead and be wrong again.

If I already have a 6'7" All Star PG, that's a no brainer.

[JPB]

Wemby can't take all the shots.

Sure, cos Scoot will.

[rascal]

He got outplayed by Wemby in the first game and barely played in the second after getting injured. Not because Wemby's teammates are scrubs that it makes Scoot stronger.

Both had great games.

Henderson scored 28 points on 11-21 shooting and his team won.

[JPB]

Both had great games.

Henderson scored 28 points on 11-21 shooting and his team won.

Put them both and each other team and guess who wins?

[Mr. Body]

If I was Charlotte, I'd hold a bidding war for assets, see what they could get for Scoot. Not sure why their narrative is either taking him or Miller. I don't particularly believe in either player -- although I do think Scoot is going to be good, insofar as face-of-the-franchise type good, if not actually being that competitive -- and I'd look at what nifty packages I could get. Don't get why only Portland would do this.

[rascal]

He got outplayed by Wemby in the first game and barely played in the second after getting injured. Not because Wemby's teammates are scrubs that it makes Scoot stronger.

I never said Scoot is stronger/better than Wemby but he held his own and played well against a Wemby lead team.

[exstatic]

You’d have taken beasley over rose lmao

Michael Beasley was not already an AS PG for Chicago. LaMelo IS already an AS PG for Charlotte. Terrible analogy, anyway. Beasley isn't a creator, he's a black hole chucker. Please try to stay on track with the topic being discussed, which is "should Charlotte draft Scoot when they already have an AS PG in LaMelo?".

[Vince Carter's ankle]

You've been wrong so many times before, go ahead and be wrong again.
Do you repeat this to yourself every time you visit a forum?

[spurraider21]

Michael Beasley was not already an AS PG for Chicago. LaMelo IS already an AS PG for Charlotte. Terrible analogy, anyway. Beasley isn't a creator, he's a black hole chucker. Please try to stay on track with the topic being discussed, which is "should Charlotte draft Scoot when they already have an AS PG in LaMelo?".
who would they be drafting instead of Henderson?

who is this mystery "bigger creator" they should be taking at #2? amen? thought you hated him too

[exstatic]

who would they be drafting instead of Henderson?

Miller. Or trade down if you don't like him, and pick up a few more assets. He's a 6'9" sharpshooter and pretty elite defender. You don't have to worry about his 38% 3s or 86% FTs. He's going to be a very good NBA shooter.

[spurraider21]

Miller. Or trade down if you don't like him, and pick up a few more assets. He's a 6'9" sharpshooter and pretty elite defender. You don't have to worry about his 38% 3s or 86% FTs. He's going to be a very good NBA shooter.
how is he a creator?

[exstatic]

how is he a creator?

PLEASE stop being so stupid. The bigger creator analogy was to compare Scoot and Lamelo, in terms of should CHA kick LaMelo to the curb for Scoot, as rascal suggested. Please try to follow the thread of the discussion.

[spurraider21]

PLEASE stop being so stupid. The bigger creator analogy was to compare Scoot and Lamelo, in terms of should CHA kick LaMelo to the curb for Scoot, as rascal suggested. Please try to follow the thread of the discussion.
no, he said have them coexist in the backcourt. and if lamelo becomes a diva about it, only then move him.

re your constant comments about scoot being undersized or a midget... sure, scoot is 6'2, but he's also quite bulky and has a 6'9 wingspan

[exstatic]

He's the best player available after Wemby.

They can move Ball to the 2 and if he bitches trade him. They would be better off without him anyways and rebuilding.


no, he said have them coexist in the backcourt. and if lamelo becomes a diva about it, only then move him.

re your constant comments about scoot being undersized or a midget... sure, scoot is 6'2, but he's also quite bulky and has a 6'9 wingspan

No, he didn't.

[spurraider21]

No, he didn't.
thanks for bolding the part that confirms what i said. "move ball to the 2" means they coexist in the backcourt. and then he specifically said "if he bitches trade him", which is also what i said (if lamelo becomes a diva about it, only then move him)

i dont have to agree with the entirety of his comment to agree on that point.

[exstatic]

thanks for bolding the part that confirms what i said. "move ball to the 2" means they coexist in the backcourt. and then he specifically said "if he bitches trade him", which is also what i said (if lamelo becomes a diva about it, only then move him)

i dont have to agree with the entirety of his comment to agree on that point.

You don't put your existing All Star in the position of having to get in line with drafting an inferior player at his position.

[rascal]

No, he didn't.

Yes I did. If he bitches move him. If he doesn't you keep them playing together.

[spurraider21]

You don't put your existing All Star in the position of having to get in line with drafting an inferior player at his position.
i dont think mediocre teams have the luxury of passing on BPA for fit. its not like terry rozier is a factory made SG anyway. he's been a PG his whole career who moved to SG, nominally. he still averages more assists per game and per minute than he ever did when he was listed as a PG. these positions are becoming more malleable. lillard and mccollum coexisted, and CJ has become mostly a PG since moving to new orleans

[exstatic]

i dont think mediocre teams have the luxury of passing on BPA for fit

Scoot isn't a clear BPA over Miller.

[spurraider21]

Scoot isn't a clear BPA over Miller.
if thats where the impasse is, thats a different conversation altogether. this whole back and forth had been about whether the hornets taking scoot could work or if the existence of lamelo makes it a poor landing spot. obviously that whole discussion takes place under the assumption that scoot is the bpa

[rascal]

Scoot isn't a clear BPA over Miller.

Miller is going to be a bust for a 2nd overall pick.

[exstatic]

Miller is going to be a bust for a 2nd overall pick.

Scoot has a higher bust chance than Miller does. He's small, and an average to below average shooter.

[JPB]

Scoot has a higher bust chance than Miller does. He's small, and an average to below average shooter.

That could be right.

Sure it's Wemby, but Scoot's been blocked 3 times by Vic, twice on jumpers, during their first game in Vegas. Due to his size, Scoot will need more separation than in the G League for his shots in the NBA not to get blocked, which could prevent him to take a lot of them. And he's not a spot up shooter.

He could also have more diffculties finishing at the rim against stronger, taller NBA bigs.

[Mr. Body]

Starting to realize Scoot Henderson is this year's John Collins who was that year's Tobias Harris. A player who doesn't fit, isn't as good as people think, and is a complete obsession of certain denizens of this board.

[mo7888]

I think a few of you have bashed Scoot enough that you're starting to convince yourselves that he's gonna bust... I've gotta give it to you guys...if nothing else, you're a determined lot...

[Mr. Body]

I think a few of you have bashed Scoot enough that you're starting to convince yourselves that he's gonna bust... I've gotta give it to you guys...if nothing else, you're a determined lot...

Who thinks he's going to bust? I just think he's going to be a basic undersize shooter who earns a lot of money and lead a mid team. He's a Washington Wizard in spirit.

[mo7888]

Who thinks he's going to bust? I just think he's going to be a basic undersize shooter who earns a lot of money and lead a mid team. He's a Washington Wizard in spirit.

There are several here that think he's going to bust, especially compared to his draft range. You're not in the 'bust' group, I'll admit. However, I don't think descriptions like 'undersized' or 'midget' are even remotely accurate either. At 6'2" with a 6'9" ws he'll actually be able to guard a lot of 2's in the league.

[exstatic]

Who thinks he's going to bust? I just think he's going to be a basic undersize shooter who earns a lot of money and lead a mid team. He's a Washington Wizard in spirit.

To me, if you're expecting a franchise player at #2, your description is that of a bust.

I'm not saying he will bust, because no one knows that right now, just that he has a high chance of doing so. There are far fewer paths to stardom for a little guy, especially one that isn't a knockdown shooter. I like the way that Dean sometimes analyzes players. He equates each skill that they lack and need to develop to a coinflip, and each coin flip that you need to go right in order to be a star cuts your odds in half. If you need 6 skills, your odds are 1.5% to be a superstar. 5 skills leaves you at 3.1% odds of superstardom. It's a harsh lense to view a player through, but then again, that's why there are so few true superstars.

[JPB]

I think a few of you have bashed Scoot enough that you're starting to convince yourselves that he's gonna bust... I've gotta give it to you guys...if nothing else, you're a determined lot...

I also don't believe he's gonna bust, but never will be the kind of guy you want in a contending team. Will get his stats, screams and chest bumps, then a big contract from a badly run team that will become an albatros.

He's been programed as a kid to make the NBA and you can see he's the lacking the basic self-awareness and humility you need to really become a star the kind of guy who makes everything about themselves, à la Westbrook... I swear he's saying "fuck you" after a made lay up over Wemby in Vegas where he's yelling and screaming lile a mad man the whole game.

[RC_Drunkford]

The same people who say Scoot will bust cause he shoots 28% from 3 are obsessed with Anthony Black who can‘t shoot at all :lol Y‘all funny

[Dejounte]

The same people who say Scoot will bust cause he shoots 28% from 3 are obsessed with Anthony Black who can‘t shoot at all :lol Y‘all funny

Seriously a lot of holier than thou shit going on too

[Extra Stout]

The same people who say Scoot will bust cause he shoots 28% from 3 are obsessed with Anthony Black who can‘t shoot at all :lol Y‘all funny
He has Sideshow Bob hair

[mo7888]

I also don't believe he's gonna bust, but never will be the kind of guy you want in a contending team. Will get his stats, screams and chest bumps, then a big contract from a badly run team that will become an albatros.

He's been programed as a kid to make the NBA and you can see he's the lacking the basic self-awareness and humility you need to really become a star the kind of guy who makes everything about themselves, à la Westbrook... I swear he's saying "fuck you" after a made lay up over Wemby in Vegas where he's yelling and screaming lile a mad man the whole game.

That's based on his psychology and not his game. I think he's basically a good kid and how he pans out in that area will largely depend on the franchise he ends up with. His psychology/ mindset is my only real concern and I think if he's here we'll develop that...other places not so much...

Fyi- I don't expect us to move up that high for him..

[exstatic]

The same people who say Scoot will bust cause he shoots 28% from 3 are obsessed with Anthony Black who can‘t shoot at all :lol Y‘all funny

The same people who are down on Black for his shooting Stan Scoot.

[Mr. Body]

The same people who say Scoot will bust cause he shoots 28% from 3 are obsessed with Anthony Black who can‘t shoot at all :lol Y‘all funny

Probably that one affects the game a hundred other ways and the other one don't.

[Big Empty]

6’2 with a 6’9 wing span, built from head to toe, a slasher with speed and can get to the rim easily. Would you draft Tony Parker with the 2nd or 3rd pick? This dude seems to have all the tools and a better prospect coming in than Tony did obviously. Fk it, trade all the picks we acquired and move anyone on the team to get it done. At first i was against it, but its time to get two #1 picks in the same draft if its possible and swing for the fence.

Scoot 6’2
Vassel 6’7
Wemby 7’4
Sochan 6’9
Colins 7’0

this line up is �� and it fits.

[Chomag]

As good as Wemby could be we do need someone to keep the offense moving and have another threat or shot creator to help keep the defense honest. Otherwise defenses will just camp Wemby.

Even Michael Jordan needed to have some of that around him to help translate stats into wins.

I'm not saying that guy has to be Scoot but he does fit perfectly in Wemby's timeline. It just cracks me up on here sometimes when many on here act like every player that's not on the Spurs roster are scrubs when in turn overate the talent level that's on the current roster.

[Extra Stout]

Obviously the Spurs are not going to trade five first round picks for Scoot Henderson.

[rascal]

Obviously the Spurs are not going to trade five first round picks for Scoot Henderson.

They should move the Chi, Charlotte, Toronto and two of their own future picks. That would be a steal for Scoot.
It would take a three team trade (highly unlikely) but if that trade for those picks were on the table the spurs should pull the trigger on that deal.

Scoot would give the Spurs two potential future all star level players and a supporting cast that could develop into solid role players.

Just keep the Atlanta unprotected picks. The Spurs have to find another dynamic scorer, all star level player to team with Wemby.
You can believe that current player is on the current team which I don't or the Spurs will be able to find that player outside the lottery which is not likely or take a swing at Scoot.
Wemby can't carry a bunch of role players on this team by himself.

Spurs were 2nd from the bottom in offensive efficiency and worst in defensive efficiency. They aren't finished yet building around Wemby and those picks other than Atlanta's will likely not be lottery picks.

[R. DeMurre]

Interesting article on Denver GM Calvin Booth and his thoughts on the importance of positional size and other things: https://denvergazette.com/sports/general-manager-calvin-booth-thinking-big-for-denver-nuggets/article_41914a2c-043b-11ee-b0f2-77eb3967fc37.html

“A lot has been made of the defensive acquisitions, and I do think it’s important to have defenders, but more importantly, I feel like we targeted positional size,” Booth said in a Ball Arena hallway after the Nuggets’ practice Saturday ahead of Game 2. “If you have positional size and you defensive rebound pretty well and if you’re smart, you can become a good defender.”




“Organizationally, that's something, (in) conversations with Calvin Booth when he took over last summer, that was their priority,” Malone said. “When you looked at last year's NBA Finals, not many small players out there because people are going to find you. We wanted to have positional size, strength, versatility. I think Calvin has done a hell of a job kind of putting this group together.”


“I felt like there was points in the season because of roster construction and the expectation level of some of the players that, he had to play smaller lineups and three-guard lineups. I think (those are) lineups that probably wouldn’t have held up as well in playoff basketball. For him to make that adjustment on the fly, was very impressive.”


"Get big, smart players that have a chance to be good defenders and hopefully they can do that,” Booth said, summing up his approach. "Big is important, but so is smart."

[JPB]

Interesting article on Denver GM Calvin Booth and his thoughts on the importance of positional size and other things: https://denvergazette.com/sports/general-manager-calvin-booth-thinking-big-for-denver-nuggets/article_41914a2c-043b-11ee-b0f2-77eb3967fc37.html

“A lot has been made of the defensive acquisitions, and I do think it’s important to have defenders, but more importantly, I feel like we targeted positional size,” Booth said in a Ball Arena hallway after the Nuggets’ practice Saturday ahead of Game 2. “If you have positional size and you defensive rebound pretty well and if you’re smart, you can become a good defender.”




“Organizationally, that's something, (in) conversations with Calvin Booth when he took over last summer, that was their priority,” Malone said. “When you looked at last year's NBA Finals, not many small players out there because people are going to find you. We wanted to have positional size, strength, versatility. I think Calvin has done a hell of a job kind of putting this group together.”


“I felt like there was points in the season because of roster construction and the expectation level of some of the players that, he had to play smaller lineups and three-guard lineups. I think (those are) lineups that probably wouldn’t have held up as well in playoff basketball. For him to make that adjustment on the fly, was very impressive.”


"Get big, smart players that have a chance to be good defenders and hopefully they can do that,” Booth said, summing up his approach. "Big is important, but so is smart."



I do'nt believe there can be a dominant, small player (like scoot) in the NBA anymore, a guy that bring you ships... There's bigger talented player at every postion nowadays, including on defense. And if you can't really shoot at that... Whether on NBA talent or attitude, I don't believe Scoot is a player spurs should and are targetting, and certainly not spend many FRPs on. You got Wemby, now bring proven talent with your assets.

[rascal]

I do'nt believe there can be a dominant, small player (like scoot) in the NBA anymore, a guy that bring you ships... There's bigger talented player at every postion nowadays, including on defense. And if you can't really shoot at that... Whether on NBA talent or attitude, I don't believe Scoot is a player spurs should and are targetting, and certainly not spend many FRPs on. You got Wemby, now bring proven talent with your assets.

There is film of Scoot driving and scoring on Wemby. Scoot will be fine.

[rascal]

You don't think Parker would be good today?

Parker is 6'2"

[JPB]

There is film of Scoot driving and scoring on Wemby. Scoot will be fine.

And there's film of Scoot being blocked 3 times by Wemby in the same game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q4an-VOFeI

[JPB]

You don't think Parker would be good today?

Parker is 6'2"

Parker was lightning fast in his prime but never really was a superstar caliber player (even tough he finished 5th once at the MVP). You needed Tim and Manu around. And I actually believe he wouldn't have the same career nowadays as a non real 3pt threat. We just do'nt see that type of smaller dominant player today in the NBA. They can get their point like Irving or Lillard can (both 6"2) but are not what you want as your top 2 guys, like you don't want Irving or Lillard because of defense mismatches, specillay in the POs... The Doncic-Luka was terrible the 14 games or so they played together, mosty due to defensive issues... Reason why Miller might go #2 just out of size. And Irvng or Lillard can actually shoot the 3 compared to TP.

[rascal]

And there's film of Scoot being blocked 3 times by Wemby in the same game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q4an-VOFeI

Scoot was able to score over Wemby during that same game with his quickness. He isn't too small to be effective.

[R. DeMurre]

Scoot was able to score over Wemby during that same game with his quickness. He isn't too small to be effective.


Why do you think Scoot's advanced stats didn't improve from year 1 to year 2 at Ignite? Doesn't it seem like his impact numbers should've jumped after a year of experience and acclimation? Do his net negative numbers and poor WS/48 not worry you at all? Even on his own team, which had a losing record, he's near the bottom in terms of impact stats. To me, that's a worrying fact for a lottery pick.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/players/h/hendesc01d.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/teams/GLI/2023.html

[JPB]

Why do you think Scoot's advanced stats didn't improve from year 1 to year 2 at Ignite? Doesn't it seem like his impact numbers should've jumped after a year of experience and acclimation? Do his net negative numbers and poor WS/48 not worry you at all? Even on his own team, which had a losing record, he's near the bottom in terms of impact stats. To me, that's a worrying fact for a lottery pick.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/players/h/hendesc01d.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/teams/GLI/2023.html

3pt %, FT %, TS%, eFG% are all worrisome elements, notably his very subpar eFG (45.5% ). For someone who's supposed to be dominating, he didn't really in the Gleague. Hes' still young but WYSIWYG with Scoot. he's NBA ready physically but I'm not sure there's that much place for big improvement in his play.

[Atl Spur]

Prime Derrick Rose says hi:)

[Ariel]

Prime Derrick Rose says hi:)
Prime Derrick Rose played almost 15 years ago and didn't settle for mid range jump shots.
I think if we're trading for a high pick (say 6) the only target that makes sense is Anthony Black, and in the late lottery/mid teens Bufkin seems like a good fit with upside. And only is the price is right.

[exstatic]

I do'nt believe there can be a dominant, small player (like scoot) in the NBA anymore, a guy that bring you ships... There's bigger talented player at every postion nowadays, including on defense. And if you can't really shoot at that... Whether on NBA talent or attitude, I don't believe Scoot is a player spurs should and are targetting, and certainly not spend many FRPs on. You got Wemby, now bring proven talent with your assets.

Not without deadly, assassin level shooting like Curry.

[exstatic]

Prime Derrick Rose says hi:)

He’s not Rose, Wall, or Westbrook, athletically. A clear, noticeable step down, doesn’t shoot well, doesn’t play defense for shit.

[rankingtear]

I don't like getting Scoot. It feels like the worst decision right now. We have prime opportunity to stretch Wemby playmaking in his developmental years with no pressure to win. Throwing a high usage guard in there that require those reps seems counter intuitive. We have the best ballhandling true frontcourt in the future and a pnr scoring wing. We are in pole position to build the modern future proof NBA lineup one without a small guard. He is not for us. He needs his own team to run.

[Mr. Body]

Denver acting like they figured it out when it's really the whole league sucks right now instead of them.

[scott]

Prime Derrick Rose played almost 15 years ago and didn't settle for mid range jump shots.
I think if we're trading for a high pick (say 6) the only target that makes sense is Anthony Black, and in the late lottery/mid teens Bufkin seems like a good fit with upside. And only is the price is right.

I'm more and more of the frame of mind that the only players worth paying the cost of moving up to somewhere like #6 would be one of the Thompson twins, but maybe only Amen, should they be available there.

Black is a fine player, but IMO not worth moving up for. Amen provides you that "2nd star" potential (if what timvp said of the FO's view on him is true) whereas I don't think Black does. I personally wouldn't do it, but to me that's the only scenario that is plausible at this point.

To be clear, Black is a player I'd be happy taking had we landed 6th or 7th in the lottery. I think he'll be a very fine, Derrick White-like player in the league, but I just can't see him developing into an all-star, and thus not worth paying the kings ransom for. Amen, though he has a much lower floor, IMO, has the ceiling to become a star (though I personally wouldn't bet on it... though timvp's reporting suggests the Spurs are believers).

[Mr. Body]

Have you ever watched OTE play? It's absolutely awful. They don't run offensive sets and even then the Thompson twins aren't as effective as you'd like. It's a lot of transition baskets because there's no one plays defense. And even if the Thompsons have 'great tools' they often get lost on who they're suposed to cover. In a YMCA league. Lose their man, looking the wrong way. Other players have to push them to where they need to go.

When I said the player the Spurs pick might have to play in the G-League, I met a lot of disagreement, but these two are who I was talking about.

You absolutely do not want to spend any capital drafting them. Are they worth taking in the late lottery, given their athleticism and foundational skills? Sure. But not where they will be taken. They will require so much tuning up to just be basically effective on an NBA court, and even then their holes are glaring. Defenses will sag off them. They won't know the basics on how to read defenses or how to react to what offenses are doing. Getting them along to understand pick-n-roll coverage will take time, and that's just the start.

People don't realize how far behind they are. And they've been 'playing professionally' for two years and are still way behind. And cannot shoot.

They are very prime to become busts.

[Mr. Body]

You see how Kuminga was unplayable in the postseason? He was so bad, so ineffective, Kerr couldn't put him out there. And he's far ahead of the Ignite player curve. He's the best they've turned out so far.

OTE is like the kiddie version of Ignite. The Chuck E Cheese version.

[Ariel]

I'm more and more of the frame of mind that the only players worth paying the cost of moving up to somewhere like #6 would be one of the Thompson twins, but maybe only Amen, should they be available there.

Black is a fine player, but IMO not worth moving up for. Amen provides you that "2nd star" potential (if what timvp said of the FO's view on him is true) whereas I don't think Black does. I personally wouldn't do it, but to me that's the only scenario that is plausible at this point.

To be clear, Black is a player I'd be happy taking had we landed 6th or 7th in the lottery. I think he'll be a very fine, Derrick White-like player in the league, but I just can't see him developing into an all-star, and thus not worth paying the kings ransom for. Amen, though he has a much lower floor, IMO, has the ceiling to become a star (though I personally wouldn't bet on it... though timvp's reporting suggests the Spurs are believers).
Personally I wouldn't touch the Thompsons, I have no confidence whatsoever in their production considering the competition, though I will give to you that the Spurs are in a much better position to make an assessment on them since they can work them out (don't know if they did) and have inside info from OTE. So they're not an option in my book, though I'll admit they may be for the Spurs and their resources.
As for Black, yes, I do agree he's not the archetype you usually look for in the high lottery, but he's got so many traits that would be perfect for the Spurs (bball IQ, ball handling, passing, defense, ability to get to the paint and finish, effort, character, size, youth) that if he improves his outside shooting a bit (he's at 30% on 3s and 70% FT) to close to league average he'd be a tremendous core piece. I think Black could be Sochan's backcourt twin more so than White's, if we can get him without an outrageous overpay I'm all for it.

[exstatic]

I'm more and more of the frame of mind that the only players worth paying the cost of moving up to somewhere like #6 would be one of the Thompson twins, but maybe only Amen, should they be available there.

Black is a fine player, but IMO not worth moving up for. Amen provides you that "2nd star" potential (if what timvp said of the FO's view on him is true) whereas I don't think Black does. I personally wouldn't do it, but to me that's the only scenario that is plausible at this point.

To be clear, Black is a player I'd be happy taking had we landed 6th or 7th in the lottery. I think he'll be a very fine, Derrick White-like player in the league, but I just can't see him developing into an all-star, and thus not worth paying the kings ransom for. Amen, though he has a much lower floor, IMO, has the ceiling to become a star (though I personally wouldn't bet on it... though timvp's reporting suggests the Spurs are believers).

So,you’d pick Black 6th or 7th if that’s where we landed, but wouldn’t pick him if we traded for 6, having already acquired our stratospheric ceiling player? That seems bass ackwards, like you should swing for Amen having not won the lottery, but not select such a low floor player by spending beaucoup assets as one to place around your unicorn.

I’ve actually laughed at stuff he said, like last year before the draft, he placed Malaki at 21 and Wesley at 26, and then in his post draft analysis blasted the Spurs for picking them at almost those exact spots, but Dean’s take on upside vs.high floor is pretty sound, especially with younger players in the top 10. His case and example was Franz Wagner, selected #8 in his draft, but probably a top 3 player in that draft.

[scott]

Have you ever watched OTE play? It's absolutely awful. They don't run offensive sets and even then the Thompson twins aren't as effective as you'd like. It's a lot of transition baskets because there's no one plays defense. And even if the Thompsons have 'great tools' they often get lost on who they're suposed to cover. In a YMCA league. Lose their man, looking the wrong way. Other players have to push them to where they need to go.

When I said the player the Spurs pick might have to play in the G-League, I met a lot of disagreement, but these two are who I was talking about.

You absolutely do not want to spend any capital drafting them. Are they worth taking in the late lottery, given their athleticism and foundational skills? Sure. But not where they will be taken. They will require so much tuning up to just be basically effective on an NBA court, and even then their holes are glaring. Defenses will sag off them. They won't know the basics on how to read defenses or how to react to what offenses are doing. Getting them along to understand pick-n-roll coverage will take time, and that's just the start.

People don't realize how far behind they are. And they've been 'playing professionally' for two years and are still way behind. And cannot shoot.

They are very prime to become busts.

Separate yourself for a moment from the personal opinions you've formed on players with the reporting that timvp has done on the FO's view of these same players. We can have a discussion about what you feel the Spurs should do based on the evaluations you've made on players, which is fine and fun. There can also be another layer of discussion about what the Spurs should/could/would do based on what we know of the evaluations THEY have made on players. Until such time provided information to the contrary, I'm going on the information provided that the Spurs were enamored by Amen's upside.

It makes zero sense to trade a king's random for Black, who has very little star potential. A player like him makes perfect sense to draft in the range he is talked about (I posted separately how teams would often be better off with picking the high-floor prospect at 6-10 rather than the massive swings they usually take), but it makes zero sense to give up multiple assets for him. *If* the Spurs believe Amen truly has star potential, then you can start to build the case for packaging assets to put yourself in a position to get him.

I also, quite clearly, said in my post that I wouldn't make this move. However, it still remains the only plausible reason to move up in such a drastic manner. This, after all, is the same argument made to move up for Scoot. If we found out the Spurs are super high on Cam Whitmore and in their professional judgement view him as the next Nephew, then you can make the same argument about moving up for him. This extends to any name you want to throw out there, it just so happens that Amen's name is the one timvp reported the Spurs are high on.

This is a fun website, but the Spurs aren't scouting this message board for ideas. It's fun to discuss what we would do if we were the GM, but there is also value in gaming out what the Spurs would do (since they have the actual control).

[scott]

So,you’d pick Black 6th or 7th if that’s where we landed, but wouldn’t pick him if we traded for 6, having already acquired our stratospheric ceiling player? That seems bass ackwards, like you should swing for Amen having not won the lottery, but not select such a low floor player by spending beaucoup assets as one to place around your unicorn.

I’ve actually laughed at stuff he said, like last year before the draft, he placed Malaki at 21 and Wesley at 26, and then in his post draft analysis blasted the Spurs for picking them at almost those exact spots, but Dean’s take on upside vs.high floor is pretty sound, especially with younger players in the top 10. His case and example was Franz Wagner, selected #8 in his draft, but probably a top 3 player in that draft.

This is a misinterpretation of what I said. I'd be happy picking Black 6th or 7th, but I wouldn't move up to 6 to take him at all, considering what we would have to give up to take him. It just isn't worth it. Having won the Wemby sweepstakes actually plays very little into the thought process at all. Black isn't worth paying the price for (which seems like this is not a controversial statement, even to Black's most ardent supporters). Only a player with star potential would be (and even then, it's a hefty price to pay). Whether that player is Amen or any other name you want to insert - I use Amen because that's the player timvp reported the Spurs are high on. I don't see anyone in this draft worth moving up in the 2-10 range for.

[scott]

Personally I wouldn't touch the Thompsons, I have no confidence whatsoever in their production considering the competition, though I will give to you that the Spurs are in a much better position to make an assessment on them since they can work them out (don't know if they did) and have inside info from OTE. So they're not an option in my book, though I'll admit they may be for the Spurs and their resources.

That's the main part of the point I'm making. While you and I (and most on this board) don't like the Thompson's, our opinions don't really matter. Only the Spurs opinions do. We were told they were high on the Thompsons, specifically Amen. Maybe that has changed.


As for Black, yes, I do agree he's not the archetype you usually look for in the high lottery, but he's got so many traits that would be perfect for the Spurs (bball IQ, ball handling, passing, defense, ability to get to the paint and finish, effort, character, size, youth) that if he improves his outside shooting a bit (he's at 30% on 3s and 70% FT) to close to league average he'd be a tremendous core piece. I think Black could be Sochan's backcourt twin more so than White's, if we can get him without an outrageous overpay I'm all for it.

I agree with this 100% - Black would be a great fit. I see him as a younger Derrick White in a lot of ways. I also think Derrick White would be a great fit here if we could somehow get him back. But at the price it would take to get him, it isn't worth it IMO.

[Mr. Body]

I have Anthony Black as number three in this draft after Scoot. I think Henderson will be a high volume, inefficient star for a marginal team. If Black gets tagged by the wrong team, he'll malinger. If he goes to a team with budding options and a scheme that's not devoted to iso-ball, he's going to be amazing.

Black is probably the smartest player in this draft -- which is kind of funny, since in interviews he comes off like a dorky teenager. On the court, his processing is often astoundingly fast. Alrready passing ahead while getting a steal, seeing gaps before they've opened. It's really ridiculous how lightning-fast, how instantaneous his reads are. Does he need polishing? Absolutely.

You just don't get this box of high-level creation with high-level perimeter defense and help defense. He's like Kawhi in digging out steals in off-ball situations. Like Sochan, he can turn on the brutal relentlessness in end game situations. All this with a 6'7" frame that has this really strong base.

The only reason I would hesitate about grabbing him is the fit next to Sochan. On defense, the Black-Vassell-Sochan-Wembanyama-Collins lineup would be ferocious. On offense, you have two guys who are dynamic and multi-dimensional but may always struggle as shooters.

Of course, the price. I feel like he's getting bobbled around in mock drafts with teams wanting Thompsons and need-to-be-activated PFs above him. Which is fine: teams are stretching for stars. Washington may have promised Wallace. I think Black will go to Utah.

Ultimately he's going to be way too expensive to try to get. But, yeah, I have him above a lot of players who I think will top out or just be very mediocre, but then I've thought that way about the non-Wemby top end of the draft for a while now.

[Mr. Body]

Also, nothing against timvp, but nothing of that roster of supposed targets for the Spurs should be adhered to. Like I've said, if you can see the tiger, you're not the prey. They're not giving away what they want to do.

[scott]

I have Anthony Black as number three in this draft after Scoot. I think Henderson will be a high volume, inefficient star for a marginal team. If Black gets tagged by the wrong team, he'll malinger. If he goes to a team with budding options and a scheme that's not devoted to iso-ball, he's going to be amazing.

Black is probably the smartest player in this draft -- which is kind of funny, since in interviews he comes off like a dorky teenager. On the court, his processing is often astoundingly fast. Alrready passing ahead while getting a steal, seeing gaps before they've opened. It's really ridiculous how lightning-fast, how instantaneous his reads are. Does he need polishing? Absolutely.

You just don't get this box of high-level creation with high-level perimeter defense and help defense. He's like Kawhi in digging out steals in off-ball situations. Like Sochan, he can turn on the brutal relentlessness in end game situations. All this with a 6'7" frame that has this really strong base.

The only reason I would hesitate about grabbing him is the fit next to Sochan. On defense, the Black-Vassell-Sochan-Wembanyama-Collins lineup would be ferocious. On offense, you have two guys who are dynamic and multi-dimensional but may always struggle as shooters.

Of course, the price. I feel like he's getting bobbled around in mock drafts with teams wanting Thompsons and need-to-be-activated PFs above him. Which is fine: teams are stretching for stars. Washington may have promised Wallace. I think Black will go to Utah.

Ultimately he's going to be way too expensive to try to get. But, yeah, I have him above a lot of players who I think will top out or just be very mediocre, but then I've thought that way about the non-Wemby top end of the draft for a while now.

You're one of the sharpest posters on this board, but you seem unable to separate your own views on players from what the strategy could/should/would be based on the Spurs view of the same players. Which is too bad for me, because I'd actually really enjoy reading your approach on things based on how the Spurs view talent.

[exstatic]

This is a misinterpretation of what I said. I'd be happy picking Black 6th or 7th, but I wouldn't move up to 6 to take him at all, considering what we would have to give up to take him. It just isn't worth it. Having won the Wemby sweepstakes actually plays very little into the thought process at all. Black isn't worth paying the price for (which seems like this is not a controversial statement, even to Black's most ardent supporters). Only a player with star potential would be (and even then, it's a hefty price to pay). Whether that player is Amen or any other name you want to insert - I use Amen because that's the player timvp reported the Spurs are high on. I don't see anyone in this draft worth moving up in the 2-10 range for.

timvp’s source was/is an EC GM who THINKS the Spurs would be interested in Amen. Not exactly straight from the horse’s mouth.

As for the moving up, it would depend on the price. The assets I’d place on the table are:
CHA FRP
CHI FRP
TOR FRP
ATL swap
BOS swap

Technically, you can’t trade a swap, but since you control the choice of picks, you can trade the better of the two in advance without knowing which will be better.

ORL can pick 3 of the above. We have Wemby and the two unprotected ATL picks, whatever two options they don’t pick, plus #6 this year. If I’m selecting, I take the Toronto pick, and both swaps.

If that doesn’t suit them they can pound sand, and pick 6 and 11.

[TD 21]

that if he improves his outside shooting a bit (he's at 30% on 3s and 70% FT) to close to league average he'd be a tremendous core piece.

Generally when this is said about a prospect, it doesn't happen (at least enough so to make a difference).

This organization, more than any other, needs to stop pouring significant assets into bad - terrible shooters.

There's this myth that because of Scumbag's unusual development as an overall shooter (and even he prefers to operate in the mid range), that they've had tons of success, but it's just not true when it comes to 3-point shooting.

[exstatic]

Generally when this is said about a prospect, it doesn't happen (at least enough so to make a difference).

This organization, more than any other, needs to stop pouring significant assets into bad - terrible shooters.

There's this myth that because of Scumbag's unusual development as an overall shooter (and even he prefers to operate in the mid range), that they've had tons of success, but it's just not true when it comes to 3-point shooting.

30/70 isn’t bad/terrible shooting. He literally needs to just take his left hand off the ball sooner.

[scott]

timvp’s source was/is an EC GM who THINKS the Spurs would be interested in Amen. Not exactly straight from the horse’s mouth.

As for the moving up, it would depend on the price. The assets I’d place on the table are:
CHA FRP
CHI FRP
TOR FRP
ATL swap
BOS swap

Technically, you can’t trade a swap, but since you control the choice of picks, you can trade the better of the two in advance without knowing which will be better.

ORL can pick 3 of the above. We have Wemby and the two unprotected ATL picks, whatever two options they don’t pick, plus #6 this year. If I’m selecting, I take the Toronto pick, and both swaps.

If that doesn’t suit them they can pound sand, and pick 6 and 11.

I don't think Orlando does that deal, personally. Maybe for 11, but probably not for 6.

And I wouldn't do 3 FRPs for Anthony Black (or anyone else left in this draft from 2 onward), personally.

[TD 21]

30/70 isn’t bad/terrible shooting. He literally needs to just take his left hand off the ball sooner.

He's unlikely to ever be so much as an average shooter. That's fine if he's as well rounded as he appears and he's surrounded by shooting, but the latter wouldn't be the case here.

By the way, I forgot the caveat of if that player has superstar or star potential of course.

[scott]

I don't think Orlando does that deal, personally. Maybe for 11, but probably not for 6.

And I wouldn't do 3 FRPs for Anthony Black (or anyone else left in this draft from 2 onward), personally.

On second thought, Orlando probably should do that deal. It's a Top 6 protected FRP (TOR), an unprotected 2026 FRP (with the added benefit of having two teams who could be bad to provide upside) and a top-1 protected 2028 FRP (again with the added benefit of having two teams who could be bad). No way I'm giving that up for Anthony Black. On overall value, that's more than ATL gave us for DJM.

[Obstructed_View]

I have Anthony Black as number three in this draft after Scoot. I think Henderson will be a high volume, inefficient star for a marginal team. If Black gets tagged by the wrong team, he'll malinger. If he goes to a team with budding options and a scheme that's not devoted to iso-ball, he's going to be amazing.
Black (Or Jeremy as I call him) looks to be a guy who contributes to a team even without the ball. I'm not sure there's a scenario where he's not a plus player in the league. He may never be a star, but he'll be a solid pro who title teams will try to acquire. To your point, there may indeed be teams that don't utilize him properly, but I would doubt he would even be on their draft boards in the first place.

[Mr. Body]

Gazing around, I only see Orlando and Dallas as teams willing to trade out of the top 10. The rest are trying to stay put or trade up. We also have OKC and possibly others trying to trade into the high lottery.

Orlando fans talk about how they have a good core but will have problems keeping them all down the line. Shooting is a massive need. They don't really need more young guys.

That said, I think fans will riot if they trade a high lottery pick for future picks. I do think the #11 may be available, maybe even probably.

Dallas may take Hendricks if he drops to #10, judging by their fans. Otherwise I think that's for sale. But they absolutely need something out of this draft, one player, two players, whatever.

Ergo... I don't see the Spurs getting to those spots without offering one of their two tradeable assets: Keldon or Zach. The rest are untradeable or have no big value yet.

And I don't see the Spurs moving either player - and especially not Zollins - without knowing how everything fits.

There's a very distant chance, if we're only talking about Black, that he falls to 10 or 11.

[exstatic]

Gazing around, I only see Orlando and Dallas as teams willing to trade out of the top 10. The rest are trying to stay put or trade up. We also have OKC and possibly others trying to trade into the high lottery.

Orlando fans talk about how they have a good core but will have problems keeping them all down the line. Shooting is a massive need. They don't really need more young guys.

That said, I think fans will riot if they trade a high lottery pick for future picks. I do think the #11 may be available, maybe even probably.

Dallas may take Hendricks if he drops to #10, judging by their fans. Otherwise I think that's for sale. But they absolutely need something out of this draft, one player, two players, whatever.

Ergo... I don't see the Spurs getting to those spots without offering one of their two tradeable assets: Keldon or Zach. The rest are untradeable or have no big value yet.

And I don't see the Spurs moving either player - and especially not Zollins - without knowing how everything fits.

There's a very distant chance, if we're only talking about Black, that he falls to 10 or 11.

Supposedly, Portland said that if they didn’t win the lottery, they were trading out, but that would probably be for pieces to put around Dame.

[Mr. Body]

Supposedly, Portland said that if they didn’t win the lottery, they were trading out, but that would probably be for pieces to put around Dame.

Right. I guess I meant of the teams the Spurs would likely target. If Portland sells their pick it's going to be astoundingly expensive.

[JPB]

Black (Or Jeremy as I call him) looks to be a guy who contributes to a team even without the ball. I'm not sure there's a scenario where he's not a plus player in the league. He may never be a star, but he'll be a solid pro who title teams will try to acquire. To your point, there may indeed be teams that don't utilize him properly, but I would doubt he would even be on their draft boards in the first place.

Which could be the problem for Black with the spurs who need more talent next to Victor, not glue guys (and they already have Sochan). He would have been perfect in the prime big 3 era, but spurs need a slasher today, another star who can create, drive and shoot to play the p&r with Victor and make defense not just focus on the big fella... Losing I don't know how many picks for Black doesn't make sense to me for those spurs. There are other priorities, reason they would (maybe) be more interested by Amen.

[Obstructed_View]

Which could be the problem for Black with the spurs who need more talent next to Victor, not glue guys (and they already have Sochan). He would have been perfect in the prime big 3 era, but spurs need a slasher today, another star who can create, drive and shoot to play the p&r with Victor and make defense not just focus on the big fella... Losing I don't know how many picks for Black doesn't make sense to me for those spurs. There are other priorities, reason they would (maybe) be more interested by Amen.

I 100 percent disagree. the Spurs need solid role players. They have a boat load of talented young players, and are going to have some hard personnel decisions coming up, and to the extent that they want to go win-now, they are going to want high floor guys.

[Mr. Body]

Which could be the problem for Black with the spurs who need more talent next to Victor, not glue guys (and they already have Sochan). He would have been perfect in the prime big 3 era, but spurs need a slasher today, another star who can create, drive and shoot to play the p&r with Victor and make defense not just focus on the big fella... Losing I don't know how many picks for Black doesn't make sense to me for those spurs. There are other priorities, reason they would (maybe) be more interested by Amen.

I'm not sure what you think talent is.

[exstatic]

I'm not sure what you think talent is.

It’s like they think the real unicorn mythological beast is going to drop by, and crap out a couple of ready made All NBA players.

Everyone has holes in their game. You pick guys that check the most boxes. Black checks a fuck of a lot of boxes.

[Ariel]

timvp’s source was/is an EC GM who THINKS the Spurs would be interested in Amen. Not exactly straight from the horse’s mouth.

As for the moving up, it would depend on the price. The assets I’d place on the table are:
CHA FRP
CHI FRP
TOR FRP
ATL swap
BOS swap

Technically, you can’t trade a swap, but since you control the choice of picks, you can trade the better of the two in advance without knowing which will be better.
A swap means you get the better of the 2 picks (Atlanta or own), you can only trade your own pick with the perk that it has the swap attached. Meaning, the Spurs '26 pick unrestricted WITH swap is actually MORE valuable than Atlanta's unrestricted '25/'27 pick, since you can benefit from the eventual demise of 2 teams instead of one. Same goes for the Spurs own '28 pick with the Boston swap. I'd much rather trade Atlanta's unrestricted picks, or the Spurs own picks unrestricted as long as they're from '26 onwards, they should be non lottery anyways. But no way in hell do I trade THREE of them, even if I like Anthony Black.

Also, the Toronto pick is getting interesting. They're reportedly not bringing Van Vleet and Trent Jr back, and their recent choice of coach is said to be largely based on his perceived talent developing skills. That signals they're going for a retool at least, and I don't think Masai is the kind of guy that goes for a 3 year hard tank, so we'll likely get that pick in the lottery. I'd do that pick + Chicago's '25 (should also be good) + 2nd rounders, I'd be willing to take back salary (Isaac?), to include McDermott (they could use the shooting), but 3 high potential picks sounds too risky for my liking.

[Ariel]

On second thought, Orlando probably should do that deal. It's a Top 6 protected FRP (TOR), an unprotected 2026 FRP (with the added benefit of having two teams who could be bad to provide upside) and a top-1 protected 2028 FRP (again with the added benefit of having two teams who could be bad). No way I'm giving that up for Anthony Black. On overall value, that's more than ATL gave us for DJM.
I agree. Also, I would add that the protection on the '28 swap is only on Boston's side, but it could convey as high as no. 1 as long as it's the Spurs who end up in that position. So it's still better than a generic unrestricted pick.

[scott]

I 100 percent disagree. the Spurs need solid role players. They have a boat load of talented young players, and are going to have some hard personnel decisions coming up, and to the extent that they want to go win-now, they are going to want high floor guys.

I agree the Spurs need solid role players. However, I think that's what I'd classify Vassell, Sochan, Johnson, Branham as. Yes they are talented young players... who project to be solid role players. I also don't think they want to go win-now right now.

[scott]

I agree. Also, I would add that the protection on the '28 swap is only on Boston's side, but it could convey as high as no. 1 as long as it's the Spurs who end up in that position. So it's still better than a generic unrestricted pick.

Good catch.

Your proposal of TOR + CHI + SRPs + taking back salary is definitely more palatable, but still feels like a lot to give up on a gamble for an unproven player who projects to be a solid role player without star upside. Unless folks here are suggesting Black has star upside, in which case - then I get it. But the arguments for Black and the descriptions of his game don't sound like the descriptions of an all-star player. I hate to keep going back to this analogy, but they sounds like you're describing Derrick White. If we were perfectly able to see into the future when we draft, I'd happy draft Derrick White at 6-10. But I don't want to give up 3 FRPs for him. The deal you propose, Ariel, actually sounds really good if a team would go for it, given our abundance of picks. For ORL, that sounds more like a deal for 11 than for 6 though.

[baseline bum]

That's the main part of the point I'm making. While you and I (and most on this board) don't like the Thompson's, our opinions don't really matter. Only the Spurs opinions do. We were told they were high on the Thompsons, specifically Amen. Maybe that has changed.


I kind of wonder if LJ's source was lying. Can't believe shit coming from teams before the draft tbh. Especially not after the Spurs lost Nenad Krstic by two picks when they didn't hide how much they liked him. Glad the Spurs didn't have the draft reputation they do now back in 01 when we all knew the Spurs wanted Tony.

[TD 21]

Also, the Toronto pick is getting interesting. They're reportedly not bringing Van Vleet and Trent Jr back, and their recent choice of coach is said to be largely based on his perceived talent developing skills. That signals they're going for a retool at least, and I don't think Masai is the kind of guy that goes for a 3 year hard tank, so we'll likely get that pick in the lottery. I'd do that pick + Chicago's '25 (should also be good) + 2nd rounders, I'd be willing to take back salary (Isaac?), to include McDermott (they could use the shooting), but 3 high potential picks sounds too risky for my liking.

:lmao If the Craptors lose Van Cheat and to a lesser extent Trent Jr. outright, when they could have traded them at the trade deadline.

It would also make the Poeltl trade look even more foolish on their part than it already does.

If they have any sense, they should offer Siakam for Simons and the 3rd pick or the 4th pick + (Porter Jr. and Martin?).

[scott]

I kind of wonder if LJ's source was lying. Can't believe shit coming from teams before the draft tbh. Especially not after the Spurs lost Nenad Krstic by two picks when they didn't hide how much they liked him. Glad the Spurs didn't have the draft reputation they do now back in 01 when we all knew the Spurs wanted Tony.

Definitely a fair point here.

My main point is for the cost of moving up, I don't think you pay that price for an elite role player. You only pay that price for an all-star.

Since the Spurs aren't just trying to move up here, they are trying to manufacture a lotto pick from nothing but future picks, the price is really f'ing high. Might be a similar price or even be cheaper to acquire an all-star who doesn't fit with a team's trajectory anymore (the example exstatic gave would be paying more for Anthony Black than ATL paid us for DJM).

[baseline bum]

Definitely a fair point here.

My main point is for the cost of moving up, I don't think you pay that price for an elite role player. You only pay that price for an all-star.

Since the Spurs aren't just trying to move up here, they are trying to manufacture a lotto pick from nothing but future picks, the price is really f'ing high. Might be a similar price or even be cheaper to acquire an all-star who doesn't fit with a team's trajectory anymore (the example exstatic gave would be paying more for Anthony Black than ATL paid us for DJM).

Yeah I'm not trading three picks for no shot Anthony Black. Maybe if Dick could handle the ball he'd be worth moving down to.

[spurraider21]

Generally when this is said about a prospect, it doesn't happen (at least enough so to make a difference).

This organization, more than any other, needs to stop pouring significant assets into bad - terrible shooters.

There's this myth that because of Scumbag's unusual development as an overall shooter (and even he prefers to operate in the mid range), that they've had tons of success, but it's just not true when it comes to 3-point shooting.
eh depends. Mike Conley and Jrue Holiday also were 30% 3 point shooters and 70% ft shooters in college who became good enough pro shooters while also being well rounded point guards like black

Hood-Shifino or however you spell it is a better shooter and at least as talented a passer as black, though doesn’t have his processing time and decision making

[JPB]

I'm not sure what you think talent is.


It’s like they think the real unicorn mythological beast is going to drop by, and crap out a couple of ready made All NBA players.

Everyone has holes in their game. You pick guys that check the most boxes. Black checks a fuck of a lot of boxes.


If you guys don't know what NBA star talent is, there's nothing I can do for you. First of all, Black doesn't check anything yet, since he has played a grand total of... zero NBA games. Making plays as a slow, skinny kid in College is one thing, let's see vs bulked up, pro adults... And if he was so good, he wouldn't be projected 6 or under, behind guys who potentially have more... talent. But what's funny is I'm sure that wouldn't have the spurs gotten the #1, none of you guys would pick Black with let's say a #2 to #5 pick, but some prospect with game changing, star potential (Amen, Scoot, Miller, Cam...) instead... PLease don't tell me you choose Black as your first pick in this draft. But we got Wemby, so let's drop 10 FRPs for Sideshow Bob because he's smart.

Go ask spurs about it, if Timvp is correct, spurs are precisely more interested in players with star potential, not Derrick Whites. You get Derrick Whites,when you get your two top dogs. Black is not a game changer and...


I 100 percent disagree. the Spurs need solid role players. They have a boat load of talented young players, and are going to have some hard personnel decisions coming up, and to the extent that they want to go win-now, they are going to want high floor guys.

...No, precisely. None of these young guys currently in SA have real 2nd star talent, both on the floor and in personality. They won't be the top guys in any eventual ship run. They either will be traded within the next 2-3 years or will be solid role players, B stars in SA for the others..... You do'nt win a ship with a Wemby/Keldon/Black big 3... or whatever. Hell no... You don't even make the POs, come on. Hell, I don't like Scoot, but if you can't see the difference in terms of BB talent with Black.. I mean.

The current roster + Wemby and Black is still desperatly missing NBA difference making talent. That's Wemby and the kids. Spurs roster will look very different in 3 years and losing 3 FRPs or whatever for Black would be crazy. he's not worth that at all.

[mo7888]

timvp’s source was/is an EC GM who THINKS the Spurs would be interested in Amen. Not exactly straight from the horse’s mouth.

As for the moving up, it would depend on the price. The assets I’d place on the table are:
CHA FRP
CHI FRP
TOR FRP
ATL swap
BOS swap

Technically, you can’t trade a swap, but since you control the choice of picks, you can trade the better of the two in advance without knowing which will be better.

ORL can pick 3 of the above. We have Wemby and the two unprotected ATL picks, whatever two options they don’t pick, plus #6 this year. If I’m selecting, I take the Toronto pick, and both swaps.

If that doesn’t suit them they can pound sand, and pick 6 and 11.

I think I'd rather target their #11 than their #6. I think there's better value when I look at the players that will 'fit' best next to Wemby. I'm assuming the top 6 are Wemby, (then no particular order), Scoot, Whitmore, Thompson, Thompson, and Miller. That would mean at #11 at least three of Walker, Hendricks, Dick, Wallace, Black, NSJ, or Bufkin would be available.

I think they're all better fits than any of the guys likely available at #6 and they'd cost less in assets and salary. I think it's the smarter play..

[Mr. Body]

If you guys don't know what NBA star talent is, there's nothing I can do for you. First of all, Black doesn't check anything yet, since he has played a grand total of... zero NBA games. Making plays as a slow, skinny kid in College is one thing, let's see vs bulked up, pro adults... And if he was so good, he wouldn't be projected 6 or under, behind guys who potentially have more... talent. But what's funny is I'm sure that wouldn't have the spurs gotten the #1, none of you guys would pick Black with let's say a #2 to #5 pick, but some prospect with game changing, star potential (Amen, Scoot, Miller, Cam...) instead... PLease don't tell me you choose Black as your first pick in this draft. But we got Wemby, so let's drop 10 FRPs for Sideshow Bob because he's smart.

Go ask spurs about it, if Timvp is correct, spurs are precisely more interested in players with star potential, not Derrick Whites. You get Derrick Whites,when you get your two top dogs. Black is not a game changer and...



...No, precisely. None of these young guys currently in SA have real 2nd star talent, both on the floor and in personality. They won't be the top guys in any eventual ship run. They either will be traded within the next 2-3 years or will be solid role players, B stars in SA for the others..... You do'nt win a ship with a Wemby/Keldon/Black big 3... or whatever. Hell no... You don't even make the POs, come on. Hell, I don't like Scoot, but if you can't see the difference in terms of BB talent with Black.. I mean.

The current roster + Wemby and Black is still desperatly missing NBA difference making talent. That's Wemby and the kids. Spurs roster will look very different in 3 years and losing several 3 FRPs for Black would be crazy. he's not worth that at all.

You're claiming that somehow Amen has talent when Black is already vastly more talented than he is, and this isn't particularly debateable. He's much better at nearly every facet of the game on both sides of the ball. Leaving aside defense, which amen is only a 'prospect,' Black is a far better ball handler, passer, facilitator, generator of offense and connector.

Black is a much better shooter. Like, right now, he's a much better shooter.

He's far, far better in the pick and roll.

And he's nearly a year younger.

The only thing you can say about Amen is that he's a better slasher, but we only know that because he was playing against some of the worst professional defenses in the world.

Everyone is getting hung up on what a star and what a role player is. The idea seems to be a run and jump athlete or big scorer is all that a star can be. And Amen isn't even a big scorer.

If you want a comparison to the type of player Black and potentially be, it's a player like Boris Diaw or Jason Kidd. Those weren't big scorers but the sure as hell multiplied the abilities of those around them. And sure as hell are the type of players I want on this team. Fortunately we already have one in Sochan and I look forward to seeing how far he goes.

[rascal]

Black is no where near as good as Kidd. Kidd is a better dribbler and passer. Kidd was more coordinated in his overall game.
You have bad eye sight if you can't see Kidd as being much better than Black.

Kidd is a ten time NBA all star and a five time NBA assists leader. Kidd was the 2nd pick in his draft class.

You are overrating Black. Black may not even end up being a starter in the NBA.

[rascal]

I think I'd rather target their #11 than their #6. I think there's better value when I look at the players that will 'fit' best next to Wemby. I'm assuming the top 6 are Wemby, (then no particular order), Scoot, Whitmore, Thompson, Thompson, and Miller. That would mean at #11 at least three of Walker, Hendricks, Dick, Wallace, Black, NSJ, or Bufkin would be available.

I think they're all better fits than any of the guys likely available at #6 and they'd cost less in assets and salary. I think it's the smarter play..

Good points but I would push it down even more to the Utah pick at 16 if they can't move up for Scoot.

At 16 they may get Bufkin or Hood-Shifino who aren't any worse than Black or can add badly needed shooting in Jordan Hawkins with that 16th pick.

[exstatic]

Black is no where near as good as Kidd. Kidd is a better dribbler and passer. Kidd was more coordinated in his overall game.
You have bad eye sight if you can't see Kidd as being much better than Black.

Kidd is a ten time NBA all star and a five time NBA assists leader. Kidd was the 2nd pick in his draft class.

You are overrating Black. Black may not even end up being a starter in the NBA.

Kidd was none of those things when drafted.

[rascal]

Kidd was none of those things when drafted.

His talent was obvious. That's why he was the 2nd overall pick.

[JuneJive]

A lot of virtual ink is being spilled imagining something that will definetly not happen.

The Spurs will not trade for a ~lotto pick.

They won't trade Keldon.

[Mr. Body]

Black is no where near as good as Kidd. Kidd is a better dribbler and passer. Kidd was more coordinated in his overall game.
You have bad eye sight if you can't see Kidd as being much better than Black.

Kidd is a ten time NBA all star and a five time NBA assists leader. Kidd was the 2nd pick in his draft class.

You are overrating Black. Black may not even end up being a starter in the NBA.

Only you would think I was talking about the literal Jason Kidd.

[mo7888]

Good points but I would push it down even more to the Utah pick at 16 if they can't move up for Scoot.

At 16 they may get Bufkin or Hood-Shifino who aren't any worse than Black or can add badly needed shooting in Jordan Hawkins with that 16th pick.

That's not a bad play either... for me it'd come down to the comparable cost to get 11 as opposed to 16..

[Mr. Body]

Regardless, I don't see the Spurs getting anywhere close to the 6, the 10 would need trading a current player, and 11 is maybe a possibility.

Later picks, I think OKC will give enough to move up from 12 and that team will use that pick.

Toronto is facing a cap crunch and could use a rookie at 13.

New Orleans at 14 is a hard call. Their needs are several and unclear. I could see a Derek Lively go here.

Atlanta at 15 is also unclear. They drafted a shooter last year. I don't know if they'd trade out.

Utah at 16 will be packaged to move up, maybe, or else possibly traded out? No idea.

I think GSW could trade out of 19 and Brooklyn has two picks at 21 and 22 and may not value taking players.

But the player that's floating around the late lottery that interests me, of course, is Kobe Bufkin. I'd take him at 11 without thinking. He may be a better fit than Black, if not the defensive possibility. No slouch at defense, he went under the radar most of the season but now everyone's caught on. Probably more of a combo guard but has signs of being very good.

I think he goes no later than 14, or a later team like the Lakers would snap him up. But then Hawkins is floating around out there. (I'd definitely rank Bufkin above Hawkins.)

Not sure what I'd give up to get Bufkin. It's all a hard call.

[mo7888]

A lot of virtual ink is being spilled imagining something that will definetly not happen.

The Spurs will not trade for a ~lotto pick.

They won't trade Keldon.

I don't think they'd have to trade Keldon to get into the late lottery. I mean they could, but they shouldn't have to.

[Kevin]

Next draft is the year for the big move up. Spurs own pick will be movable good chance the Toronto pick will convey and maybe even the Hornets pick. Gotta be patient.

[Ariel]

But the player that's floating around the late lottery that interests me, of course, is Kobe Bufkin. I'd take him at 11 without thinking. He may be a better fit than Black, if not the defensive possibility. No slouch at defense, he went under the radar most of the season but now everyone's caught on. Probably more of a combo guard but has signs of being very good.

I think he goes no later than 14, or a later team like the Lakers would snap him up. But then Hawkins is floating around out there. (I'd definitely rank Bufkin above Hawkins.)

Not sure what I'd give up to get Bufkin. It's all a hard call.
Bufkin could go as high as 9, but I'd say his danger zone is probably 13-20, with 13 (Toronto) and 16 (Utah) being strong possibilities, and 20 (Houston) being his floor.
I think it may be possible to land a pick in the 11-14 range:
12) OKC: if they can't move up and no one slips, they could be interested in the Toronto pick or a long term gamble (say Spurs '29 or '30 unprotected or lightly protected).
13) Toronto: Bufkin would go here, but maybe they could be interested in taking their '24 pick back, which would enable them to tank risk free.
14) New Orleans: candidates are Hawkins and Gradey, but if they're gone maybe they can be interested in taking a future pick (Toronto, Chicago), or multiple assets (McDermott + Charlotte's pick + multiple 2nds for #14 + whatever).
With that said I wouldn't pull the trigger for any deals that are not fair in terms of value. If some team wants to trade out for a future pick or get lesser assets to dump a longer contract for an expiring, great. Otherwise, wait for a bargain in the late teens / early 20s, there should be better opportunities there (with 21/22 being great candidates).

[KobesAchilles]

It bothers me that Black can’t consistently beat his man off the dribble. He is tall so he can shoot over his defender but man he takes tough ass shots at the rim. His playmaking looks really good and his defense is quite good. But there’s literally nothing right about his shot. His footwork is wrong and different a lot on set shots, his catching into his shot is bad, he brings it to the wrong area to shoot and has horrible horrible shot mechanics.

I don’t think drafting a point guard who can’t create his own shots and can’t shoot is the way to go in todays nba. We have Wemby. Surround the mofo with shooters.

[baseline bum]

Good points but I would push it down even more to the Utah pick at 16 if they can't move up for Scoot.

At 16 they may get Bufkin or Hood-Shifino who aren't any worse than Black or can add badly needed shooting in Jordan Hawkins with that 16th pick.

Especially if it doesn't require trading the Atlanta picks / swap nor the Boston swap. Really want to save those for putting a second star next to Wemby in a year or two.

[TD 21]

Good points but I would push it down even more to the Utah pick at 16 if they can't move up for Scoot.

At 16 they may get Bufkin or Hood-Shifino who aren't any worse than Black or can add badly needed shooting in Jordan Hawkins with that 16th pick.

Who knows of it's true, but they're supposedly interested in Coulibaly at 9, with the thinking being they can still grab a PG/combo guard at 16.

[Mr. Body]

It bothers me that Black can’t consistently beat his man off the dribble. He is tall so he can shoot over his defender but man he takes tough ass shots at the rim. His playmaking looks really good and his defense is quite good. But there’s literally nothing right about his shot. His footwork is wrong and different a lot on set shots, his catching into his shot is bad, he brings it to the wrong area to shoot and has horrible horrible shot mechanics.

I don’t think drafting a point guard who can’t create his own shots and can’t shoot is the way to go in todays nba. We have Wemby. Surround the mofo with shooters.

I wonder if people actually have watched Black play?

He beats players off the dribble. What's more, he's not some Blake Wesley where he gets in trouble not knowing what to do at that point. He uses bumps and the hostage dribble at a level few 19 year-olds do.

It doesn't even make sense -- 'beat his man off the dribble.' As if running isos is smart basketball. Running isolations is stupid basketball. That's not even Spurs basketball to begin with. The league runs tons of dribble hand-offs and picks for a reason: it drags the big man out of the lane and makes both defender have to make snap decisions on the fly, something Black is already adept at capitalizing on.

I truly think the analysis here on Black is completely unfounded and very, very confused.

As for his shot, it's not terrible. Amen Thompson - now that's a completely broken and fucked up jump shot. Black's issue is an almost too-solid base and repetition. I'd almost want a shot that needs tweaks and changes than one that looks great and just doesn't go in. His can be more than fixed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6tYPnU1TbA

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Bufkin could go as high as 9, but I'd say his danger zone is probably 13-20, with 13 (Toronto) and 16 (Utah) being strong possibilities, and 20 (Houston) being his floor.


I agree, I have Bufkin at 9 to Utah. Can imagine they see some Donovan Mitchell upside with him if they squint their eyes. If he falls outside of the lottery he'd be awesome value.

[Rocalcio]

Scoot even lead his team to victory over Wemby's team when they played.

Scoot is strong and built like a tank.

No thanks, we don’t want anything related to a tank now

[JPB]

You're claiming that somehow Amen has talent when Black is already vastly more talented than he is, and this isn't particularly debateable. He's much better at nearly every facet of the game on both sides of the ball. Leaving aside defense, which amen is only a 'prospect,' Black is a far better ball handler, passer, facilitator, generator of offense and connector.

Black is a much better shooter. Like, right now, he's a much better shooter.

He's far, far better in the pick and roll.

And he's nearly a year younger.

The only thing you can say about Amen is that he's a better slasher, but we only know that because he was playing against some of the worst professional defenses in the world.

Everyone is getting hung up on what a star and what a role player is. The idea seems to be a run and jump athlete or big scorer is all that a star can be. And Amen isn't even a big scorer.

If you want a comparison to the type of player Black and potentially be, it's a player like Boris Diaw or Jason Kidd. Those weren't big scorers but the sure as hell multiplied the abilities of those around them. And sure as hell are the type of players I want on this team. Fortunately we already have one in Sochan and I look forward to seeing how far he goes.

Again, none of these kids have played in the NBA yet, so making definitive judgments about them doesn't make sense... I understand you fell in love with Black, but reading you, he's a 7 year vet who impressed the NBA with overalll game and brought the spurs to 3 titles...

We're talking potential here and ceiling, which is drafting is all about, not how good these kids are at draft day, otherwise spurs never pick Kawhi. That's what evaluating is about, trying to see what player porspects can become, not just who they alreay are... Eveyone can see who they are, imagining who they can become is what makes the difference, with the risks it implies.

Black's ceiling is elite role player, Boris type, but you get Boris (or he signs with you) when/because, you already have Tim/Tony/Manu, you don't spend 3 FRPs to get a 18 Bobo in the draft when you're rebuilding. You spend that to try and get your second big dog, or you don't at all. Scoot, Miller, the twins, Cam eventually, have a higher ceiling than Black, it's probably more risky since you can indeed already see a lot of nice things with Black, but trading Hill for Kawhi was risky... And that's the only time you can eventually do that, when your evaluation tells you that player could be a difference maker if well developed in your program. You just don't take that risk for a role player, specially when you're 2023 spurs.

And I don't think I have to elaborate much on comparing Black with Kidd... Wow! You're really in love... kidd was an all time great passer, perannial all star. His lack of shooting would make hilm less relevant today but he's not playing today, so... Black may never sniff an all star game in his entire career.

[Dejounte]

Um. Kawhi is the wrong player to use. He was projected as a high floor, low ceiling prospect… even all the way up until his second or third year. Even after he was showing star quality in his 3rd year, no one believed it because he wasn’t athletic enough.

not saying Black is that. But Kawhi is a bad example.

[Dejounte]

Very easy to find nonbelievers on this forum itself. Just dig through old threads and a lot of people talked shit about Kawhi just being a role player on here. In fact, a lot of the words being said about the current roster sounds like recycled garbage about Kawhi. Not saying anyone of them are Kawhi, but people have a tendency to pretend they know the future about players a lot.

I’m calling out a wide range of people here from both ends of the spectrum… a lot of you guys don’t learn your lesson and you pretend you know how everything’s gonna go. You don’t. Pull your head out of your ass.

[Mr. Body]

Again, none of these kids have played in the NBA yet, so making definitive judgments about them doesn't make sense... I understand you fell in love with Black, but reading you, he's a 7 year vet who impressed the NBA with overalll game and brought the spurs to 3 titles...

We're talking potential here and ceiling, which is drafting is all about, not how good these kids are at draft day, otherwise spurs never pick Kawhi. That's what evaluating is about, trying to see what player porspects can become, not just who they alreay are... Eveyone can see who they are, imagining who they can become is what makes the difference, with the risks it implies.

Black's ceiling is elite role player, Boris type, but you get Boris (or he signs with you) when/because, you already have Tim/Tony/Manu, you don't spend 3 FRPs to get a 18 Bobo in the draft when you're rebuilding. You spend that to try and get your second big dog, or you don't at all. Scoot, Miller, the twins, Cam eventually, have a higher ceiling than Black, it's probably more risky since you can indeed already see a lot of nice things with Black, but trading Hill for Kawhi was risky... And that's the only time you can eventually do that, when your evaluation tells you that player could be a difference maker if well developed in your program. You just don't take that risk for a role player, specially when you're 2023 spurs.

And I don't think I have to elaborate much on comparing Black with Kidd... Wow! You're really in love... kidd was an all time great passer, perannial all star. His lack of shooting would make hilm less relevant today but he's not playing today, so... Black may never sniff an all star game in his entire career.

You're the one with this weirdo projection of 'role player' for Black. Not even sure what that means.

To enforce this, you take the entire career of Kidd and compare him to Black as a nineteen year old.

Somehow Amen is a superstar for whatever fantasy next fifteen years in the league he'll have flying to the rim doing any thing imaginable, as if his growth curve is infinite, yet Black has no growth curve whatsoever. You realize Nash was a skinny dude coming into the league with more question marks than promise at one time, too, right?

So why is Black going to take his great attitude, work ethic, ability to see the floor, BBIQ, and defense and never get better? Why are you comparing him right now not to other high IQ, talented players when they entered the league and instead scratch him for not having a twenty year career already?

It's completely senseless.

If there's a player in the lottery, other than Victor, who I think will have a very long very impactful career bringing a lot of wins where he knows how to improve, it's very clearly Black.

This is how it happens.

[exstatic]

Another thing that Dean says is that you should draft for the median outcome, not the 99% upside, since that's the most likely outcome. I'm not sure I agree with that if we don't have Wemby, but we do. We hit the homerun, and now just need some singles and solid doubles thru the draft.

[JPB]

Um. Kawhi is the wrong player to use. He was projected as a high floor, low ceiling prospect… even all the way up until his second or third year. Even after he was showing star quality in his 3rd year, no one believed it because he wasn’t athletic enough.

not saying Black is that. But Kawhi is a bad example.

Hum, that's the whole point....He is the perfect example of what drafting is about. Spurs gambled and traded a very valuable asset for him because of the player they thought he could become, not the player he was a draft day that made 14 teams pass. Great f'king job... They didn't spend 3FPRs for a role player, but a 26th pick role player for a future MVP level player, at least someone they saw star potential in their development program... One of the best moves in draft history and the only ones you should make...

[exstatic]

Hum, that's the whole point....He is the perfect example of what drafting is about. Spurs gambled and traded a very valuable asset for him because of the player they thought he could become, not the player he was a draft day that made 14 teams pass. Great f'king job... They didn't spend 3FPRs for a role player, but a 26th pick role player for a future MVP level player, at least someone they saw star potential in their development program... One of the best moves in draft history and the only ones you should make...

Spurs had no idea what he would become. Pop said that they thought he would be like a super Bowen. As for all those assets we have, the bulk and best of them came from flipping a 29 pick. They can be spent with a clear conscience when needed.

[Dejounte]

Hum, that's the whole point....He is the perfect example of what drafting is about. Spurs gambled and traded a very valuable asset for him because of the player they thought he could become, not the player he was a draft day that made 14 teams pass. Great f'king job... They didn't spend 3FPRs for a role player, but a 26th pick role player for a future MVP level player, at least someone they saw star potential in their development program... One of the best moves in draft history and the only ones you should make...


I vehemently disagree they saw Kawhi becoming who he would become. They wanted to get their new version of Bowen because the big 3 could still compete. It wasn’t a gamble pick. He was a “best fit” for what we had at the time.

[JPB]

You're the one with this weirdo projection of 'role player' for Black. Not even sure what that means.

To enforce this, you take the entire career of Kidd and compare him to Black as a nineteen year old.

Somehow Amen is a superstar for whatever fantasy next fifteen years in the league he'll have flying to the rim doing any thing imaginable, as if his growth curve is infinite, yet Black has no growth curve whatsoever. You realize Nash was a skinny dude coming into the league with more question marks than promise at one time, too, right?

So why is Black going to take his great attitude, work ethic, ability to see the floor, BBIQ, and defense and never get better? Why are you comparing him right now not to other high IQ, talented players when they entered the league and instead scratch him for not having a twenty year career already?

It's completely senseless.

If there's a player in the lottery, other than Victor, who I think will have a very long very impactful career bringing a lot of wins where he knows how to improve, it's very clearly Black.

This is how it happens.

Why? Answer yourself why black isn't projected #2 by eveybody then, if you lost your mind for the kid... How hard is it to understand these kids are ranked depending on talent people see on them? wouldn't be surprised if Black ultimately drop at 10 or under...

And no, nothing is "clear", not more than Black is gonna be the player you describe that Amen or Miller are gonna be stars... IT'S ALL ABOUT POTENTIAL, always been, always will be, that what drafting is about... If it wa that simple, there wouldn't be any debate or projections... Victor is the consensus #1 because he's perceived as the kid with the most talent... Scoot or Miller #2 because they're perceived as the two guys with the most talent behind Vic... And so on... Simple as that.

I've seen Black play many times and he's simply not one of the two stars you need on your team... He's good at many things, he's smart but he's just not a player you give the ball to win you the game at the end. He can really create for himself and is not a difference maker, the guys you see in POs win games... Sure, being a star is not just about athleticism but that's a prerequisite, unless you have gold in your hands, like Luka or Steph, who are still much more dynamic stronger and energetic than Black who is pretty slow and skinny. Jason Kid was also pretty strong and fast notably his hands. Kidd was a pure PG, with incredible court vision and passing skills, a star. You watch Antonhy Black and you don't see a difference maker. There's a lot of things he's doing in College he won't able to do in the NBA. If you can't shoot as a backcourt player nowadays, your value is massively dropping. Hes ' a guy who can complement your team where you already have your couple of stars.

Black is just not worth losing 2 or 3 FPRs you could use in much better ways (for Luka for example). I mean Black or Luka? not the same prize but the pick you lose for Black maybe prevent you to get Luka (or someone else).

[Dejounte]

I vehemently disagree they saw Kawhi becoming who he would become. They wanted to get their new version of Bowen because the big 3 could still compete. It wasn’t a gamble pick. He was a “best fit” for what we had at the time.

To add: Kawhi was obsessed with emulating Jordan. Almost unhealthy-like. More credit goes to him than the Spurs, for working hard to make that leap that made him blow away anyone’s expectations of him.

[Mr. Body]

Why? Answer yourself why black isn't projected #2 by eveybody then, if you lost your mind for the kid... How hard is it to understand these kids are ranked depending on talent people see on them? wouldn't be surprised if Black ultimately drop at 10 or under...

And no, nothing is "clear", not more than Black is gonna be the player you describe that Amen or Miller are gonna be stars... IT'S ALL ABOUT POTENTIAL, always been, always will be, that what drafting is about... If it wa that simple, there wouldn't be any debate or projections... Victor is the consensus #1 because he's perceived as the kid with the most talent... Scoot or Miller #2 because they're perceived as the two guys with the most talent behind Vic... And so on... Simple as that.

I've seen Black play many times and he's simply not one of the two stars you need on your team... He's good at many things, he's smart but he's just not a player you give the ball to win you the game at the end. He can really create for himself and is not a difference maker, the guys you see in POs win games... Sure, being a star is not just about athleticism but that's a prerequisite, unless you have gold in your hands, like Luka or Steph, who are still much more dynamic stronger and energetic than Black who is pretty slow and skinny. Jason Kid was also pretty strong and fast notably his hands. Kidd was a pure PG, with incredible court vision and passing skills, a star. You watch Antonhy Black and you don't see a difference maker. There's a lot of things he's doing in College he won't able to do in the NBA. If you can't shoot as a backcourt player nowadays, your value is massively dropping. Hes ' a guy who can complement your team where you already have your couple of stars.

Black is just not worth losing 2 or 3 FPRs you could use in much better ways (for Luka for example). I mean Black or Luka? not the same prize but the pick you lose for Black maybe prevent you to get Luka (or someone else).

Like I told you, Black has way more potential than Amen Thompson.

And I think Scoot is vastly overrated. I only put Black 3rd on my board because I think Scoot will become a 'star' as an inefficient volume scorer, and that gets people going for some reason.

This whole draft has been fucked for a long time because Scoot, Miller, Thompson, Thompson, and Whitmore have been grossly overrated. Just ridiculously, almost hilariously overrated.

If you've watched Black play and not seen potential, I don't know what to tell you. I see scads of potential, same as I saw in Sochan, and I was right about Sochan. And, in the end Sochan will have been picked too low.

The draft process gets things wrong. A lot.

[RC_Drunkford]

Hum, that's the whole point....He is the perfect example of what drafting is about. Spurs gambled and traded a very valuable asset for him because of the player they thought he could become, not the player he was a draft day that made 14 teams pass. Great f'king job... They didn't spend 3FPRs for a role player, but a 26th pick role player for a future MVP level player, at least someone they saw star potential in their development program... One of the best moves in draft history and the only ones you should make...

they traded a back up PG for a starting SF basically, since we had a hole at that position for years since Bruce Bowen retired. Totally different scenario from now

[exstatic]

Why? Answer yourself why black isn't projected #2 by eveybody then, if you lost your mind for the kid... How hard is it to understand these kids are ranked depending on talent people see on them? wouldn't be surprised if Black ultimately drop at 10 or under...

And no, nothing is "clear", not more than Black is gonna be the player you describe that Amen or Miller are gonna be stars... IT'S ALL ABOUT POTENTIAL, always been, always will be, that what drafting is about... If it wa that simple, there wouldn't be any debate or projections... Victor is the consensus #1 because he's perceived as the kid with the most talent... Scoot or Miller #2 because they're perceived as the two guys with the most talent behind Vic... And so on... Simple as that.

I've seen Black play many times and he's simply not one of the two stars you need on your team... He's good at many things, he's smart but he's just not a player you give the ball to win you the game at the end. He can really create for himself and is not a difference maker, the guys you see in POs win games... Sure, being a star is not just about athleticism but that's a prerequisite, unless you have gold in your hands, like Luka or Steph, who are still much more dynamic stronger and energetic than Black who is pretty slow and skinny. Jason Kid was also pretty strong and fast notably his hands. Kidd was a pure PG, with incredible court vision and passing skills, a star. You watch Antonhy Black and you don't see a difference maker. There's a lot of things he's doing in College he won't able to do in the NBA. If you can't shoot as a backcourt player nowadays, your value is massively dropping. Hes ' a guy who can complement your team where you already have your couple of stars.

Black is just not worth losing 2 or 3 FPRs you could use in much better ways (for Luka for example). I mean Black or Luka? not the same prize but the pick you lose for Black maybe prevent you to get Luka (or someone else).

Go back and look at past mock drafts. Go and look at who panned out from that draft. I guarantee you that lots of #2s and #3s busted.

Mock drafts are an industry. I guarantee you that pundits push players KNOWING they aren’t the best, for various reasons. The NBA desperately wants GL Ignite to be relevant, and they’re not. Bronny James is hyped like the second coming, and he might not even be an NBAplayer past his rookie deal.

[R. DeMurre]

Very easy to find nonbelievers on this forum itself. Just dig through old threads and a lot of people talked shit about Kawhi just being a role player on here. In fact, a lot of the words being said about the current roster sounds like recycled garbage about Kawhi. Not saying anyone of them are Kawhi, but people have a tendency to pretend they know the future about players a lot.

I’m calling out a wide range of people here from both ends of the spectrum… a lot of you guys don’t learn your lesson and you pretend you know how everything’s gonna go. You don’t. Pull your head out of your ass.


:lol Dude, your name is DEJOUNTE, and your avatar is the guy who's completely average and has fallen behind Sochan and Vassell in the pecking order of young players with future potential. Your head is so far up your own ass that you can eat your own breakfast for a second time from your own stomach.

[KobesAchilles]

I wonder if people actually have watched Black play?

He beats players off the dribble. What's more, he's not some Blake Wesley where he gets in trouble not knowing what to do at that point. He uses bumps and the hostage dribble at a level few 19 year-olds do.

It doesn't even make sense -- 'beat his man off the dribble.' As if running isos is smart basketball. Running isolations is stupid basketball. That's not even Spurs basketball to begin with. The league runs tons of dribble hand-offs and picks for a reason: it drags the big man out of the lane and makes both defender have to make snap decisions on the fly, something Black is already adept at capitalizing on.

I truly think the analysis here on Black is completely unfounded and very, very confused.

As for his shot, it's not terrible. Amen Thompson - now that's a completely broken and fucked up jump shot. Black's issue is an almost too-solid base and repetition. I'd almost want a shot that needs tweaks and changes than one that looks great and just doesn't go in. His can be more than fixed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6tYPnU1TbA
Yeah I have seen him play and he gets stuck in traffic easily bc he can’t lose his man off the dribble. That is a problem. We don’t need iso ball but we do need a man who can beat a guy off the dribble. That is always key in the nba. Steph is so effective bc he can consistently beat his guy off the dribble when you over play him. Manu beat his guy off the dribble, TP did as well. That isn’t isoball at all but it does mean that someone can initiate the attack at all times. Jamal Murray beats people off the dribble as well. It’s a necessity.

And his shot is broken. Like all of it. Can it be fixed? I don’t know. That’s a crap shoot. But saying that it needs a tweak is laughable. His feet are set wrong. He catches the ball and brings it to the wrong position and his form is awful. Nothing about that is an easy fix. Again I don’t see a player worth trading up for. Thompson has a beyond broken shot so yes I guess if you compare the two Black has a better jumper. But nobody is exactly caping for Amen.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

His feet are set wrong. He catches the ball and brings it to the wrong position and his form is awful.
What do you think Victor needs to change in order to become a good shooter?

[Mr. Body]

Yeah I have seen him play and he gets stuck in traffic easily bc he can’t lose his man off the dribble. That is a problem. We don’t need iso ball but we do need a man who can beat a guy off the dribble. That is always key in the nba. Steph is so effective bc he can consistently beat his guy off the dribble when you over play him. Manu beat his guy off the dribble, TP did as well. That isn’t isoball at all but it does mean that someone can initiate the attack at all times. Jamal Murray beats people off the dribble as well. It’s a necessity.

And his shot is broken. Like all of it. Can it be fixed? I don’t know. That’s a crap shoot. But saying that it needs a tweak is laughable. His feet are set wrong. He catches the ball and brings it to the wrong position and his form is awful. Nothing about that is an easy fix. Again I don’t see a player worth trading up for. Thompson has a beyond broken shot so yes I guess if you compare the two Black has a better jumper. But nobody is exactly caping for Amen.

Steph can't routinely beat his guy off the dribble. That's why they get picks all the time. And Black can beat guys off the dribble. You say you watch him and then you don't. It's just kneejerk idiocy.

Lol.

Like, seriously, if you're isoing your players, your team is going to flatline like every single James Harden or Kyrie lead team has. It's just dumb basketball.

And lmao on the shot. He's freaking nineteen years old. It's going to be fine.

[Mr. Body]

Giddey is at best a comparable athlete to Black and he gets past his man a ton and Black is a better athlete and stronger. Giddey just has more handles and is wiley. Those are things a smart dedicated player can learn. Those are things Black is.

Anyway, last statement, because Black is not on the board. But this kind of rationale is obnoxious:

Scoot Henderson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Amen Thompson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Anthony Blacks, has some problems: He sucks and will never get better

It's just pure fallacy.

[Dejounte]

:lol Dude, your name is DEJOUNTE, and your avatar is the guy who's completely average and has fallen behind Sochan and Vassell in the pecking order of young players with future potential. Your head is so far up your own ass that you can eat your own breakfast for a second time from your own stomach.

Let the hate swallow you up :lmao Again and again I’m on your mind, and you picked even the weakest point about something as stupid as a forum username. You’re lame as fuck, move on with your life already and put me on ignore already. You sound like a heart torn bitter ex.

[KobesAchilles]

I was talking about Anthony Black. I think Victor has a good shot

[KobesAchilles]

Giddey is at best a comparable athlete to Black and he gets past his man a ton and Black is a better athlete and stronger. Giddey just has more handles and is wiley. Those are things a smart dedicated player can learn. Those are things Black is.

Anyway, last statement, because Black is not on the board. But this kind of rationale is obnoxious:

Scoot Henderson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Amen Thompson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Anthony Blacks, has some problems: He sucks and will never get better

It's just pure fallacy.
I don’t want Scoot either. Not Thompson. Well I do want Thompson just Klay Thompson. We have Victor. We need shooting. I want shooting. Black and Scoot don’t do that for me. I mean they are both better than Tre for sure.

But if we did get Black then I would want to pick up either Kyle Lowry or CP3. CP3 has never been known as a mentor but I think Black would really become a little brother to CP3 with his passion and personality. And Lowry would be a great back up to learn from as well.

[KobesAchilles]

Also Mr. Body I think we have to separate ideas of beating a guy off the dribble. You take it as James Harden or Kyrie isoball and I take it more as Spurs ball movement. Set a pick and just create for yourself or the other guy. It doesn’t need to be every fucking possession but it’s a necessity in when you need a bucket you are going to have to iso a guy. Black gets caught on a lot of pic n rolls bc he doesn’t fully beat his guy. That is just a fact. Now he is 19 and he can get better but lots of 19 year olds can get better. How many of them actually do. I like Blacks game but there’s a lot I’m scared about.

And to be fair I have less faith in Black bc we lost Chip. I have no idea of this new shooting coach is any good. I do know that if Chip teaches Giddy how to shoot them the dude is an all star. And if Black turns out as good as Giddey then I will eat crow but to me he will never be as good as him bc Giddey has a special feel for the game that I don’t think Black possesses.

Also Steph has the best handles in the game and is always beating his man off the dribble. To say otherwise is lying. But it’s not his whole game. They set a shitload of screens bc he happens to be the greatest shooter ever. But if you just iso Steph one on one (in his prime) he gets to the basket with ease.

[mo7888]

I don’t want Scoot either. Not Thompson. Well I do want Thompson just Klay Thompson. We have Victor. We need shooting. I want shooting. Black and Scoot don’t do that for me. I mean they are both better than Tre for sure.

But if we did get Black then I would want to pick up either Kyle Lowry or CP3. CP3 has never been known as a mentor but I think Black would really become a little brother to CP3 with his passion and personality. And Lowry would be a great back up to learn from as well.

I like the idea of Lowry as a mentor type PG on this team for a season... If we went that route (Lowry + NSJ, Black, Wallace, Bufkin, or Hood-Schifino) I'm not sure we'd want to resign Tre though. I think its an 'either/or' scenario.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Sounds like Portland's pick is up for sale. They want to add some instant muscle around Dame. I wonder if the Spurs could wrangle their way in there, even involving some other teams if necessary.

[mo7888]

Shams just said the Pelicans are aggressively looking to trade up to take Scoot.

I'm guessing Zion is on his way to Portland or Charlotte..

[BatManu20]

Pels want Scoot. I don’t see Charlotte moving that pick though unless it’s for a king’s ransom. Short of Brandon Ingram or Zion being traded, I don’t see it happening. Zion can’t even be relied on to play these days and is due a shit-ton of money next Summer. Sounds like a pipe dream for NO unless they make an offer Charlotte can’t refuse.

1668352475454136338

[scott]

Another thing that Dean says is that you should draft for the median outcome, not the 99% upside, since that's the most likely outcome. I'm not sure I agree with that if we don't have Wemby, but we do. We hit the homerun, and now just need some singles and solid doubles thru the draft.

I generally agree with this - and teams would usually be better off doing this than what they actually do. I keep going back to the example of Derrick White. Derrick was drafted #29 because he was an older prospect with a lower ceiling. But in a redraft, Derrick is probably a top-10 pick.

It's why I agree that Black is a great pick (I just don't think he's worth trading 3 FRPs for, some others disagree, which is okay).

[Joseph Kony]

Charlotte's FO is trash and will likely prioritize fit over BPA, so imo they will probably take Miller. If Scoot is on the board at #3 I bet Portland would be willing to trade it for BI + depth

[LeBowen]

Charlotte's FO is trash and will likely prioritize fit over BPA, so imo they will probably take Miller. If Scoot is on the board at #3 I bet Portland would be willing to trade it for BI + depth

I don't like it for either team, lmao.
Ingram is an efficent 25/6/6 wing in theory, but since his rookie season he hasn't played more than 62 games. Damaged goods.

Tbh, Blazers really need to blow it up. Dame's loyalty is admirable, but even if they got KD for free, they're not getting anywhere with that roster and there's no way they improve enough to become a legit playoff team.
Dame is 33 and has one or two good seasons left, what then?

Throwing away #3 pick in such stacked draft just to indulge him would lead to parennial mediocrity.

NOLA are also lost because Zion is useless for all intents and purposes except for chasing prostitutes and pornstars. They should shop him around while he still has some value.


As for the Spurs, there's no realistic chance to move into the lottery. Forget about it. Maybe if Dallas are dumb enough to take Keldon, but he's not a good fit for them.

[Big Empty]

The Hornets should try trade Ball to Portland for the 3rd pick and pull a Houston Texans

[Joseph Kony]

I don't like it for either team, lmao.
Ingram is an efficent 25/6/6 wing in theory, but since his rookie season he hasn't played more than 62 games. Damaged goods.

Tbh, Blazers really need to blow it up. Dame's loyalty is admirable, but even if they got KD for free, they're not getting anywhere with that roster and there's no way they improve enough to become a legit playoff team.
Dame is 33 and has one or two good seasons left, what then?

Throwing away #3 pick in such stacked draft just to indulge him would lead to parennial mediocrity.

NOLA are also lost because Zion is useless for all intents and purposes except for chasing prostitutes and pornstars. They should shop him around while he still has some value.


As for the Spurs, there's no realistic chance to move into the lottery. Forget about it. Maybe if Dallas are dumb enough to take Keldon, but he's not a good fit for them.

Agree. I don't think Portland should be fucking around trying to win now but Dame has made it clear he wants them to make moves to contend and I don't see them trading him unless he actually demands it, so they will go all in now in an attempt to appease him. which is stupid as fuck given his age and salary, but hey, there is something to be said about loyalty from your superstar nowadays.

I don't see them as real contenders but they intend to re-sign Grant, and if they can get something like BI + Herb Jones/picks for the 3rd pick without giving up their core guys and re-signing Grant, they have a pretty solid roster for '24:

Dame
Simons/Sharpe
Ingram/Jones
Grant
Nurkic

they'd probably be better served trading Simons for depth also but that team puncher's chance if they're healthy next year (which is a huge question mark). very limited window though

[JPB]

Giddey is at best a comparable athlete to Black and he gets past his man a ton and Black is a better athlete and stronger. Giddey just has more handles and is wiley. Those are things a smart dedicated player can learn. Those are things Black is.

Anyway, last statement, because Black is not on the board. But this kind of rationale is obnoxious:

Scoot Henderson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Amen Thompson, lots of holes: He's gonna be a starra
Anthony Blacks, has some problems: He sucks and will never get better

It's just pure fallacy.

Nobody said that, litterally nobody... No need to caricature other opinoins to try to validate you blind love for Bob. The only person sucking one player with his balls down the throat here is that Black worshiper...

Black can't beat his man of the dribble, create for himself and shoot to save his life but "he's 19, he'll be fine"... Why?" "Because I'm in love with the kid."

[JPB]

Spurs need a guy who can drive, slash and shoot, next to Victor, which Black wont really be able do against NBA competition. That's something you can see, he's not that type of guy. Not fast enough, strong enough and smooth enough. Bobo could shoot as a very young age already and couldn't really drive. But he was much more athletic than Black... If you can't shoot, or create for yourself, you better have other elite skills, and compensate with your strengh or athleticism, which Black doesn't. He's good a many things, but not elite at any, a good all around player but not your star. Scoot's shoot is suspect (much more fixable tho and decent actually) but he's fast and strong and elite at driving and finishing,

Anyway, the vast majority of the time, prospects who can't shoot never really develop a reliable one... Happens but odds are against you. And that's for guys who somehow have a shoot that resembles anything... Black is just throwing the ball up his shoulders.

[exstatic]

Spurs need a guy who can drive, slash and shoot, next to Victor, which Black wont really be able do against NBA competition. That's something you can see, he's not that type of guy. Not fast enough, strong enough and smooth enough. Bobo could shoot as a very young age already and couldn't really drive. But he was much more athletic than Black... If you can't shoot, or create for yourself, you better have other elite skills, and compensate with your strengh or athleticism, which Black doesn't. He's good a many things, but not elite at any, a good all around player but not your star. Scoot's shoot is suspect (much more fixable tho and decent actually) but he's fast and strong and elite at driving and finishing,

Anyway, the vast majority of the time, prospects who can't shoot never really develop a reliable one... Happens but odds are against you. And that's for guys who somehow have a shoot that resembles anything... Black is just throwing the ball up his shoulders.

It's as if you think that if you say it enough times, it'll be true.

You should also read Dean's latest substack about Scoot.

[couchman]

Pelicans showing the blueprint for moving up to get Scoot

[mo7888]

One thought on Nola moving up for Scoot.... if they somehow manage that the team (Portland I'm guessing) wont really want to take on young players and Nola might be willing to move Dyson Daniels as they turn it over to Scoot. There might be a 3 team play we could get in on there if the FO likes Dyson..

[skin27]

Spurs should go for scoot. They need a future allstar point guard.

[Mr. Body]

https://deanondraft.substack.com/p/how-athletic-is-scoot-henderson

Very sobering look at Scoot against other players of his type. He really doesn't look like an explosive, elite athlete, and his finishing at the rim is really bad, suggesting he's not.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs should go for scoot. They need a future allstar point guard.

So who would the future allstar point be?

[skin27]

So who would the future allstar point be?


Scoot i guess

[PhantomDashCam]

One thought on Nola moving up for Scoot.... if they somehow manage that the team (Portland I'm guessing) wont really want to take on young players and Nola might be willing to move Dyson Daniels as they turn it over to Scoot. There might be a 3 team play we could get in on there if the FO likes Dyson..

Yeah I was wondering about this too, although replacing Daniels with Kira Lewis in potential trade scenarios (as a throw-in, lacks Daniels positional versatility).
I think Charlotte will ultimately be the one selecting Scoot though.

Ben Pfeifer makes a compelling case as to why a Scoot/LaMelo B/C could work in theory.

2:19 mark...


https://youtu.be/4wJPtiU3-Ec

[scott]

It's isn't Thanksgiving, but I'm going to share two things I'm thankful for

1) That we are picking #1 and don't have to worry about which of the rest of these fuckers to draft
2) We are now equipped with years worth of thread content as we follow the careers of Scoot, Thompsons, Black and (to a lesser extent) Cam

[Mr. Body]

Man, Kira Lewis. Pelicans got unlucky -- Haliburton and Vassell went right before him.

[skin27]

Is there a chance we get scoot after picking wembanyama?

[exstatic]

Is there a chance we get scoot after picking wembanyama?

Thankfully, no.

[mo7888]

Is there a chance we get scoot after picking wembanyama?

Well, if the FO really wants him enough to put together the package that it would take, then sure... I think he'd be great here, but i would'nt pay the price that it would likely take..

[R. DeMurre]

Still trying to figure out if this New Orleans rumor has any legs.. I can't imagine they're thinking to pair a 6'2' Scoot with a 6'3" McCollum to form an undersized back court along with a 6'6" Zion. After they got McCollum, the first thing they did was make him a PG instead of an undersized SG. Maybe they think Dyson Daniels is ready to take a leap forward and want to have two young PGs in the back court? But I can't see Portland or Charlotte wanting an expensive & older McCollum.

[TD 21]

Still trying to figure out if this New Orleans rumor has any legs.. I can't imagine they're thinking to pair a 6'2' Scoot with a 6'3" McCollum to form an undersized back court along with a 6'6" Zion. After they got McCollum, the first thing they did was make him a PG instead of an undersized SG. Maybe they think Dyson Daniels is ready to take a leap forward and want to have two young PGs in the back court? But I can't see Portland or Charlotte wanting an expensive & older McCollum.

Williamson would probably be the one offered, not Ingram.

I can't imagine the Trail Blazers giving up the 3rd pick (or the Rockets the 4th pick) for him though, given his lack of durability.

Henderson and McCollum is too undersized defensively and Henderson and Daniels too light on shooting/spacing for a team already lacking in those areas.

[BatManu20]

1668768334148673537

[JPB]

1668768334148673537

Not a fan of Scoot in a vaccum but he'll be a star in the NBA. Not a star I'd like but still a star... He is basically the only player with Wemby you can comfortbly tag as such in this draft. Kid got talent, athletiscism and his shoot is not as bad as some want to make it, not Black bad... Can drive, beat his man of the dribble and slash. He'll got his points and money.

[spurraider21]

The Hornets should try trade Ball to Portland for the 3rd pick and pull a Houston Texans
If they don’t like the ball Henderson fit they should sell scoot. Even if they can’t deal the pick in time just draft scoot anyway and wait for offers

[sfernald]

One thought on Nola moving up for Scoot.... if they somehow manage that the team (Portland I'm guessing) wont really want to take on young players and Nola might be willing to move Dyson Daniels as they turn it over to Scoot. There might be a 3 team play we could get in on there if the FO likes Dyson..

I was thinking this too. He’s really a fine player who couldn’t show it NO last year. Great idea.

[scott]

Portland/Charlotte should trade their pick to any NFL team who needs a running back. Scoot looks like he's ready to rush for 1800 yards and 22 TDs

[Degoat]

Scoots the PG version of Anthony Edwards tbh

[Mr. Body]

A lot of thirsty dudes in here. Posting himself topless was a brilliant move.

[Russ]

The Spurs should not and (of course) will not make any play for Scoot Henderson.

First of all, he allows himself to be called "Scoot," that's a deal breaker from the get go.

Second, he seems to make no impact on his team's success (which is particularly problematic for a "point guard").

Third, he's not particularly quick (despite all CW accounts to the contrary).

Yes, he'll have a career, a successful one like Russell Westbrook, but his teams will likely never get the brass ring.

(God, I hate to be so negative.)

[Russ]

Did I mention that he can't shoot . . .

[Ice009]

So,you’d pick Black 6th or 7th if that’s where we landed, but wouldn’t pick him if we traded for 6, having already acquired our stratospheric ceiling player? That seems bass ackwards, like you should swing for Amen having not won the lottery, but not select such a low floor player by spending beaucoup assets as one to place around your unicorn.

I’ve actually laughed at stuff he said, like last year before the draft, he placed Malaki at 21 and Wesley at 26, and then in his post draft analysis blasted the Spurs for picking them at almost those exact spots, but Dean’s take on upside vs.high floor is pretty sound, especially with younger players in the top 10. His case and example was Franz Wagner, selected #8 in his draft, but probably a top 3 player in that draft.

Who did this?

[DAF86]

https://deanondraft.substack.com/p/how-athletic-is-scoot-henderson

Very sobering look at Scoot against other players of his type. He really doesn't look like an explosive, elite athlete, and his finishing at the rim is really bad, suggesting he's not.

Really strange piece, tbh. He takes a sample size of just 8 games, tries to compare it to a completely different league and comes up with a definite analysis out of that.

It is also very strange the criteria he uses to measure "athleticism", imho. Wasn't Westbrook the worst finisher in the NBA one year? Nobody would say Westbrook was anything other than a freak athlete, tbh.

I wasn't very high on Scoot, in fact I made the Miller thread saying he should be the clear #2 over Henderson, but then I watched a couple more games of Scoot and he just seems to have "it", tbh. Also, his shooting form surprised me. I'm pretty sure he will develop into an above average shooter.

[Mr. Body]

Didn't Scoot play only like nineteen games this year or something? Finding comparisons to Gleague is hard. It's not nearly the level of the NBA and it's either much better or not as good as the NCAA. Regardless, having those issues finishing at the rim... he's basically Blake Wesley once he gets to the rim. I really dislike the attempt to quantify athleticism in these terms, or at all, but it does seem clear he cannot yam it on bigs and he doesn't have great touch otherwise. Those can be learned. But the suggestion that he's not this received wisdom elite athlete seems to be pretty true. He'll be more like a Baron Davis or other strong guards, Sherman Douglas, who are more strength oriented.

[exstatic]

Who did this?

Dean on Draft.

[exstatic]

Didn't Scoot play only like nineteen games this year or something? Finding comparisons to Gleague is hard. It's not nearly the level of the NBA and it's either much better or not as good as the NCAA. Regardless, having those issues finishing at the rim... he's basically Blake Wesley once he gets to the rim. I really dislike the attempt to quantify athleticism in these terms, or at all, but it does seem clear he cannot yam it on bigs and he doesn't have great touch otherwise. Those can be learned. But the suggestion that he's not this received wisdom elite athlete seems to be pretty true. He'll be more like a Baron Davis or other strong guards, Sherman Douglas, who are more strength oriented.

The gleague is also nearly devoid of shot blockers.

[intlspurshk]

Not sure whether Spurs can create a trade package to get Scott and whether Scott really possesses the all star talent. Nevertheless, it is more likely to get first round pick from Dallas, Toronto, Atlanta or Orlando (2nd first round pick) and Spurs should target Kobe (for shooting and defense) or Bilal (for wing potential) or Dereck (for rebound and rim protection). These are almost sure win trades

[scott]

Not sure whether Spurs can create a trade package to get Scott and whether Scott really possesses the all star talent. Nevertheless, it is more likely to get first round pick from Dallas, Toronto, Atlanta or Orlando (2nd first round pick) and Spurs should target Kobe (for shooting and defense) or Bilal (for wing potential) or Dereck (for rebound and rim protection). These are almost sure win trades

Rest assured, I do not possess all star talent, or really any talent at all tbqh

[Ariel]

It's isn't Thanksgiving, but I'm going to share two things I'm thankful for

1) That we are picking #1 and don't have to worry about which of the rest of these fuckers to draft
2) We are now equipped with years worth of thread content as we follow the careers of Scoot, Thompsons, Black and (to a lesser extent) Cam
Had we landed at 6-7 there'd be mostly resignation, but if it was 2-4, Oh boy, the sh!tstorm that would be hitting this place would be out of this world. Thank God we can debate on Scoot, Miller and the Thompson twins while on the beach sipping margaritas.

[Ariel]

Rest assured, I do not possess all star talent, or really any talent at all tbqh
:lol

[T Park]

Rest assured, I do not possess all star talent, or really any talent at all tbqh

you can make a damn good glass of beer tho sir.

[JPB]

Regardless, having those issues finishing at the rim... he's basically Blake Wesley once he gets to the rim.

What in the all Hell?

I'm gonna reapeat I'm not Scoot's most unconditional fan but how can anyone who saw Scoot play or just know the player be totally off? Finishing at the rim in many different ways is actually one of his forces (at 60%, which is considered elite) thanks notably to his burst and athleticism. Blake dreams he had 1% of that ability. That's basically the very reason why he's project top 3, since he's not a shooter...

I mean, come on.

[Mr. Body]

What in the all Hell?

I'm gonna reapeat I'm not Scoot's most unconditional fan but how can anyone who saw Scoot play or just know the player be totally off? Finishing at the rim in many different ways is actually one of his forces (at 60%, which is considered elite) thanks notably to his burst and athleticism. Blake dreams he had 1% of that ability. That's basically the very reason why he's project top 3, since he's not a shooter...

I mean, come on.

Lol, just read the take instead of whatever fantasy you have going on. You don't have to believe him, but he posts video after after video after video of Scoot blowing even basic stuff at the rim.

Stop oggling his half naked body, stop regarding him like Jesus Christ, and actually look at the player in front of you.

[JPB]

Lol, just read the take instead of whatever fantasy you have going on. You don't have to believe him, but he posts video after after video after video of Scoot blowing even basic stuff at the rim.

Stop oggling his half naked body, stop regarding him like Jesus Christ, and actually look at the player in front of you.

"Lol, I can make you videos of Mickael Jordan looking a scrub.
"Lol", at trusting some terrible pundit take made out of 8 games instead of actually watching the games and checking stats.
"Lol" at ignoring the fact I litterally said I'm not a Scoot fan.

And yes, lolololol at ignoring the only irrefutable way to know how good a player is at something: STATS. And stats say Scoot is an elite finisher, which litterally every fucking body who follows and (really) watched the player kwows, reason why he's projected top 3... That's what Scoot does, finishing at the rim at an elite 60% rate... Sure he's been blocked three times by Wemby in Vegas but twice on jumpers unaware he was Victor has such a reach... Otherwise, he showed a great repertoire of finishing over under, both hands, dunks, stops... And that's what he did in the G League too.

Holy shit, the terrible takes you can read here.

Scoot at 0:45, 1:06, 4:09, 6:30...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=278Trwfd9Ns

[BatManu20]

1668970733890859014

[emmo]

"Lol, I can make you videos of Mickael Jordan looking a scrub.
"Lol", at trusting some terrible pundit take made out of 8 games instead of actually watching the games and checking stats.
"Lol" at ignoring the fact I litterally said I'm not a Scoot fan.

And yes, lolololol at ignoring the only irrefutable way to know how good a player is at something: STATS. And stats say Scoot is an elite finisher, which litterally every fucking body who follows and (really) watched the player kwows, reason why he's projected top 3... That's what Scoot does, finishing at the rim at an elite 60% rate... Sure he's been blocked three times by Wemby in Vegas but twice on jumpers unaware he was Victor has such a reach... Otherwise, he showed a great repertoire of finishing over under, both hands, dunks, stops... And that's what he did in the G League too.

Holy shit, the terrible takes you can read here.

Scoot at 0:45, 1:06, 4:09, 6:30...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=278Trwfd9Ns

I’ve never seen more defensive reactions over a #3 pick than I have with Scoot. It’s just weird.

[R. DeMurre]

Interesting article on ESPN today, regarding the scouting process back in 2014-- here's an excerpt:

DraftExpress referred to Jokic (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2014-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Recap-4449/) as "the star of practice the week leading up to the game." And based on Jokic's hot 3-point shooting in those practices, fellow World star (and future Nuggets teammate) Emmanuel Mudiay joked to ESPN draft analyst Jonathan Givony that "I've got Dirk [Nowitzki] on my team." (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/454049972040654848)

Despite his front-row seat, Rana wasn't as impressed.

"I would tell you that [Jokic] wasn't a guy that was going to step on the court like [Bismack] Biyombo (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6427/bismack-biyombo) did in my first Hoop Summit [in 2011], and you were wowed by him because of athletic ability or any type of major impact," Rana told ESPN. "[Jokic] didn't have a major impression either way.

*. *. *. *

Bismack Biyombo went on to have a negative BPM every single year of his career, and a net negative career VORP. Eight out of his twelve years, his teams were better when he was off the court. Jokic's impact stats in his rookie season were better than any of Biyombo's career.

[rankingtear]

What in the all Hell?

I'm gonna reapeat I'm not Scoot's most unconditional fan but how can anyone who saw Scoot play or just know the player be totally off? Finishing at the rim in many different ways is actually one of his forces (at 60%, which is considered elite) thanks notably to his burst and athleticism. Blake dreams he had 1% of that ability. That's basically the very reason why he's project top 3, since he's not a shooter...

I mean, come on.

Blake also finished at 60 in the g-league in the restricted area. 3 more attempts. Julian 70 with the same attempts. The lack of rim protection in the g-league is real.

[exstatic]

Interesting article on ESPN today, regarding the scouting process back in 2014-- here's an excerpt:

DraftExpress referred to Jokic (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2014-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Recap-4449/) as "the star of practice the week leading up to the game." And based on Jokic's hot 3-point shooting in those practices, fellow World star (and future Nuggets teammate) Emmanuel Mudiay joked to ESPN draft analyst Jonathan Givony that "I've got Dirk [Nowitzki] on my team." (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/454049972040654848)

Despite his front-row seat, Rana wasn't as impressed.

"I would tell you that [Jokic] wasn't a guy that was going to step on the court like Biyombo (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6427/bismack-biyombo) did in my first Hoop Summit [in 2011], and you were wowed by him because of athletic ability or any type of major impact," Rana told ESPN. "[Jokic] didn't have a major impression either way.

*. *. *. *

[B]Bismack Biyombo went on to have a negative BPM every single year of his career, and a net negative career VORP. Eight out of his twelve years, his teams were better when he was off the court.



bUt YoU NEed tO Be a HIgH lEvel AthleTe tO bE a StAr...

[rankingtear]

In terms of PNR scoring he is 0.76 pp. That is the 31st percentile in the NBA , similar to Killian Hayes. This is his role in the next level. You see why the concern is there.

[Seventyniner]

Interesting article on ESPN today, regarding the scouting process back in 2014-- here's an excerpt:

DraftExpress referred to Jokic (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2014-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Recap-4449/) as "the star of practice the week leading up to the game." And based on Jokic's hot 3-point shooting in those practices, fellow World star (and future Nuggets teammate) Emmanuel Mudiay joked to ESPN draft analyst Jonathan Givony that "I've got Dirk [Nowitzki] on my team." (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/454049972040654848)

Despite his front-row seat, Rana wasn't as impressed.

"I would tell you that [Jokic] wasn't a guy that was going to step on the court like [Bismack] Biyombo (https://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6427/bismack-biyombo) did in my first Hoop Summit [in 2011], and you were wowed by him because of athletic ability or any type of major impact," Rana told ESPN. "[Jokic] didn't have a major impression either way.

*. *. *. *

Bismack Biyombo went on to have a negative BPM every single year of his career, and a net negative career VORP. Eight out of his twelve years, his teams were better when he was off the court. Jokic's impact stats in his rookie season were better than any of Biyombo's career.



Oh deer.

[JPB]

In terms of PNR scoring he is 0.76 pp. That is the 31st percentile in the NBA , similar to Killian Hayes. This is his role in the next level. You see why the concern is there.

I def have concerns about Scoot, and I don't want him, but pnr and finishing are two different things. Not to mention it takes two to tango, Scoot have elite handles and burst, but the art of setting a good screen in a pnr is something that takes time for big men to master and Scoot mosty had to deal with a bunch young, clueless stiffs in his GLeague team to tango with... It also takes time and experience for the ball handler, and learn how to read a play. He's still a teen with zero NBA games and that's def not the kind of things a scout should see as a deal breaker...

Comparing Scoot pnr stats to one of a 3 year NBA player ain't that fair. ( I guess it also stands for positive stats) No doubt he'll progress, which is what the team that will pick will bet on... What would be intersting is to compare his stats with NCAA from current NBA players (to see the difference).

[rascal]

I want Scoot.

Scoot and Wemby will be a dynasty.

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXWdMcprspk

Showing his potential day by day

[rjv]

if scoot had been a spur, he would have been just behind zach as far as the number of posters who have his face inside a "no" circle.

[Ice009]

Darn, that seems like a nice game. Has he been improving from game to game? 8 threes is a lot for someone that's not considered a good shooter at all I know NBA level players can go off at any given time, but 8 threes is impressive for anyone. It's only one game, but if he's improving, good for him.

[scott]

I think Scoot will end up an okay pro. Like most rookies, he needs time to develop. Unfortunately, unlike some pros, he's on a dumpster fire of a team as far as development goes. Not that the Spurs have necessarily been that much better as of late.