The Point Guard Position

[exstatic]

What do you guys think about Garland? He's just 23 and is a perfect point guard for modern NBA.
His size wouldn't be an issue considering the rest of our projected roster.

The only issue is that he already signed a max which kicks in this summer. 33-36-38-41-44 million over the next 5 seasons.
Still, the cap will rise and he'll definitely be worth at least 30 a year.

22/8 on great efficency while playing together with chucker Mitchell and poor spacing. Could easily be a 25/10 guy for us.

He's a bad fit on the Cavs because him and Mitchell can't defend shit together and they can't afford to have two of them on 60+ million per season with no good wings on the roster and Mobley's extension coming up.

Keldon can't land us a good point guard in the draft, but I'm sure Cavs would be willing to take him for Garland and Spurs wouldn't have to give up much else because of Keldon's team-friendly deal that would serve as an additiona asset for the Cavs.

Other than Garland, maybe we could take advantage of dumpster fire in Minnesota next summer if Edwards asks out, but they'd ask for a lot. Beyond those two, there aren't any realistic deals to be had that fit the timeline.
And I'm not going to pretend that I know much about the upcoming drafts.

Garland is WAY overpaid, and Ant Edwards is a dumbass.

[rascal]

As this debate has evolved I have come to the conclusion that the guy to target is Bufkin. He plays good D, has a great feel for the game, finishes a crazy high percentage at the rim and can shoot the 3 both C&S and off the dribble. And he could very well be available outside the lottery. He has good positional size at 6'5" and just has the feel of being a great fit for the Spurs.

Yes, Bufkin or Jalen Hood-Shifino should be the targets at a lower cost.

Bufkin looks solid in all areas.

I like Hood-Shifino's game more than Black. Has better shooting mechanics and already is solid on hitting his mid range shot. Hood-Shifino looks far better on shooting off the dribble than Black. Hood-Shifino's defense is also not bad.

Black doesn't jump off the floor on his shot. This will play smaller than his height in the NBA. Black has a push shot(heaves it up) and doesn't have good form on it.

The Spurs need a pg who can at least hit mid range shots at a good rate.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, Black's shot is really weird. He played wide receiver in hs, apparently, and was recruited by colleges. His legs are really strong but they lead to this weird jump shot.

I'm still unsure about JHS. His numbers were pretty bad and he was so erratic. Maybe something's there.

The only thing about Bufkin is that he's more of a combo guard, but I feel like he can run pnrs without problem. He just may not have the vision of the other guys.

[LeBowen]

Garland is WAY overpaid, and Ant Edwards is a dumbass.

But that's the catch. Him being overpaid means Spurs wouldn't need to attach like 3 additional firsts.

Unless Spurs can land a future all-star PG in the draft, which I don't think is going to happen, I'd much prefer Wemby to be paired with a known quantity at point. Someone good enough to maximize his potential from the start, because that's how this roster is hopefully going to operate over the next decade.

Maybe I'm biased because I really like Garland as a player, but I think it's a risk worth taking with so much cap space available. He'd be easy to trade in a few years if it doesn't work out and Spurs need cap space.

[exstatic]

But that's the catch. Him being overpaid means Spurs wouldn't need to attach like 3 additional firsts.

Unless Spurs can land a future all-star PG in the draft, which I don't think is going to happen, I'd much prefer Wemby to be paired with a known quantity at point. Someone good enough to maximize his potential from the start, because that's how this roster is hopefully going to operate over the next decade.

Maybe I'm biased because I really like Garland as a player, but I think it's a risk worth taking with so much cap space available. He'd be easy to trade in a few years if it doesn't work out and Spurs need cap space.

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

[LeBowen]

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

The fact is that Spurs need a primary ballhandler who's going to be a triple threat on pnr. Winning teams just don't work without those.
Even Jokic needs Murray and Giannis needs Middleton. We need someone who can collapse defenses while being a legit threat from deep.

Right now this roster doesn't have anyone who's even close to being good enough as a creator.
Tre is a great guy and I'd love to keep him as a backup, but he's an undersized guard with no range.

Devin and Malaki could become Wemby's Middleton, but they're not on that level yet.
I've got high hopes for Jeremy as a playmaker, but he can't shoot at all.

Victor most definitely won't be playing as C in his rookie season, so we need at least two elite 3pt shooters in the starting lineup.

As I said, he's 23 and Spurs won't be a serious playoff team for at least two more seasons.
It doesn't have to be Garland, but he's the type this roster needs and I can't see anyone else being available right now.

[Dejounte]

I simply took a criteria that you applied as a negative to Black, and applied it to Scoot. Has nothing to do with athleticism.

I know your stance on age, just as you know mine, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of FRPs are 18/19, not 21/22, so I think the NBA kind of sees it more my way. If you stick around in college until you're 21/22, you're stronger and more physically developed, but it doesn't make you a better star prospect, IMO. I don't see it being much different from the 20YO Thompsons playing against 15/16 YO kids.

Check out why I brought up athleticism in the post you quoted before this one.

[exstatic]

Check out why I brought up athleticism in the post you quoted before this one.

I have no idea why you brought athleticism into a post quoting a very short post of mine mentioning the age of two players, pre-draft, and a quick response to your WS point.

[Dejounte]

I have no idea why you brought athleticism into a post quoting a very short post of mine mentioning the age of two players, pre-draft, and a quick response to your WS point.

Uh, let me break this down for you:

I said: usually lottery players are lottery players because they have decent stats or great athleticism

you pointed out stats that werent in Scoot’s favor

then I reply that I disagree with you on Scoot’s athleticism, basically saying that he has at least that going for him whereas Black doesn’t have either. (I’m also excluding basketball feel here, which is a big part)

Do you follow?

[DAF86]

Jalen Williams is not a point guard.

And the thread isn't about Black. It's about getting a defensive point guard who is a potential starter. I listed at least four of these, possibly six.

Do people just not know how to read? Is that the issue?

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

[exstatic]

Uh, let me break this down for you:

I said: usually lottery players are lottery players because they have decent stats or great athleticism

you pointed out stats that werent in Scoot’s favor

then I reply that I disagree with you on Scoot’s athleticism, basically saying that he has at least that going for him whereas Black doesn’t have either. (I’m also excluding basketball feel here, which is a big part)

Do you follow?

OK.

We just have very different ways of evaluating players. You tend more towards the eye test with video analysis, and I tend towards the analytics, and those two don't always agree. That leads us into conflict, but it doesn't have to. I see very little chance of us getting Scoot OR Black, so what are we squabbling about? Let's just see how things play out in the draft, and over the next two years or so.

[exstatic]

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

Holiday is a very good defensive PG, who has a credible shot to keep teams honest. I think that's what most here want. We don't need a 25 point scorer there.

[Mr. Body]

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

Because we get scorched by top level guards. The offense is going to take care of itself, more or less, but with Wembanyama and some of the other pieces we have a chance to be very good defensively. I don't want a sieve as a main guard who cannot prevent Wembanyama from having to cover everything and possibly get in foul trouble. If we have a good defensive lead guard this team can be what's almost impossible to do in this era: be very good at shutting teams down.

This draft is unique to me in that it has multiple good defensive guards who aren't total rubbish on the other end. This really doesn't happen very often, looking over past drafts.

[Seventyniner]

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

Wemby's rookie contract is the perfect time to overpay other players relative to production, because Wemby himself should provide value well in excess of his salary.

I'm not saying Garland is the right player to splurge on. He would fit the offense like a glove (career average 39% 3FG on good volume) and he somehow tied with SGA for the most defensive win shares in the league from the PG position last season. His contract is not great but not horrible; if the cap keeps going up 10% per year he should take up about 1/4 of it per year while Wemby will only get around 1/12.

[exstatic]

Wemby's rookie contract is the perfect time to overpay other players relative to production, because Wemby himself should provide value well in excess of his salary.

I'm not saying Garland is the right player to splurge on. He would fit the offense like a glove (career average 39% 3FG on good volume) and he somehow tied with SGA for the most defensive win shares in the league from the PG position last season. His contract is not great but not horrible; if the cap keeps going up 10% per year he should take up about 1/4 of it per year while Wemby will only get around 1/12.

Garland has 5 years and 194,300,000 left. That's beyond Wemby's rookie deal.

It's a pipedream anyway. Cleveland won't let him go for anything short of our entire pick bag.

[Seventyniner]

Garland has 5 years and 194,300,000 left. That's beyond Wemby's rookie deal.

It's a pipedream anyway. Cleveland won't let him go for anything short of our entire pick bag.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know he had money due in 2027-2028. I was using Hoopshype which only showed his deal through 2026-2027.

That changes my mind some. Five years takes him through his prime but that one year of overlap with Wemby's extension could be problematic. That and the fact that you're right about Cleveland not being willing to just dump him at this point. Their team salary situation is pretty clean, with Love coming off the books and Mobley still on his rookie deal.

[exstatic]

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know he had money due in 2027-2028. I was using Hoopshype which only showed his deal through 2026-2027.

That changes my mind some. Five years takes him through his prime but that one year of overlap with Wemby's extension could be problematic. That and the fact that you're right about Cleveland not being willing to just dump him at this point. Their team salary situation is pretty clean, with Love coming off the books and Mobley still on his rookie deal.

That last year could be a player option or opt out. I used his bbref page for the contract length and amounts.

[RC_Drunkford]

The Spurs can bring in a guy who‘s overpaid with all those rookie contracts and cap space available. Now I don’t see Cleveland wanting to trade Garland. Bottom line is we need an All-Star at PG. Yes a good point of attack defender would put the defense over the top, but as LeBowen said we also need somebody who‘s able to break down the defense and a threat from 3. I don‘t see any solution at the horizon right now, but let‘s see what the FO got up their sleeve

[Mr. Body]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

[DAF86]

As this debate has evolved I have come to the conclusion that the guy to target is Bufkin. He plays good D, has a great feel for the game, finishes a crazy high percentage at the rim and can shoot the 3 both C&S and off the dribble. And he could very well be available outside the lottery. He has good positional size at 6'5" and just has the feel of being a great fit for the Spurs.

I really like this guy.

77ak65Rvq4M

Some other poster proposed moving up to Miami's #18 by just giving up #33 and taking on Lowry's contract. I don't know if this is a realistic scenario, but I would jump on that opportunity if this guy was still available.

[DAF86]

Holiday is a very good defensive PG, who has a credible shot to keep teams honest. I think that's what most here want. We don't need a 25 point scorer there.

Sure, if we had a Middleton I would be fine with getting JUST a Holidy type, but we don't have a Middleton. We probably do have a Holiday, though, in Vassell, which is why going for another Holiday would make no sense.

[DAF86]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

We do. A Point guard, or just a primary ballhandler that plays on the perimeter, that's what the Spurs most obviously need. That's why all this talk about a defensive minded pioint is crazy.

The Spurs will have 3 great defensive prospects next year: Wemby, Sochan and Vassell. Add to that a 3 and D guy through free agency (which are a dime a dozen now) and you don't need any more defense.

What the Spurs really need is a 3 level dynamic, point of attack, scorer (which, unlike the 3 and D guy, is way harder to find). Get busy on finding that guy first and then you can start worrying about finding those 3 and D glue guys to round up a championship contender.

You don't waste lottery picks aiming at role players, you shoot for the stars and if the player ends up being a high end role player, then that's fine too. But you just can't think of moving up to the lottery picks thinking of getting a "defensive minded PG that keeps defense honest". That's just not how drafting in the lottery works.

[exstatic]

Sure, if we had a Middleton I would be fine with getting JUST a Holidy type, but we don't have a Middleton. We probably do have a Holiday, though, in Vassell, which is why going for another Holiday would make no sense.

Vassell is much closer to being Middleton than he is Holiday, who is a floor general and PG.

[DAF86]

Last champions off the top of my head:

-Murray and Jokic
-Middleton and Giannis
-Curry, Klay and Draymond
-Lebron and Davis
-Kawhi, Siakam (and Lowry to a lesser extent)
-Wade, Lebron and Bosh

Every team had all-star level players both in the perimeter and inside. We already have our inside all-star level prospect in Wemby, now we need that all-star level prospect in the perimeter.

[Mr. Body]

We do. A Point guard, or just a primary ballhandler that plays on the perimeter, that's what the Spurs most obviously need. That's why all this talk about a defensive minded pioint is crazy.

The Spurs will have 3 great defensive prospects next year: Wemby, Sochan and Vassell. Add to that a 3 and D guy through free agency (which are a dime a dozen now) and you don't need any more defense.

What the Spurs really need is a 3 level dynamic, point of attack, scorer (which, unlike the 3 and D guy, is way harder to find). Get busy on finding that guy first and then you can start worrying about finding those 3 and D glue guys to round up a championship contender.

You don't waste lottery picks aiming at role players, you shoot for the stars and if the player ends up being a high end role player, then that's fine too. But you just can't think of moving up to the lottery picks thinking of getting a "defensive minded PG that keeps defense honest". That's just not how drafting in the lottery works.

Two different points you're making:

That we need an All-Star point guard. Heavy, total disagreement.

That this draft isn't a place even to get a good starter. Also disagree.

The mania for a point that needs to carry a huge scoring load and be a star -- just disagree fundamentally.

[Mr. Body]

Last champions off the top of my head:

-Murray and Jokic
-Middleton and Giannis
-Curry, Klay and Draymond
-Lebron and Davis
-Kawhi, Siakam (and Lowry to a lesser extent)
-Wade, Lebron and Bosh

Every team had all-star level players both in the perimeter and inside. We already have our inside all-star level prospect in Wemby, now we need that all-star level prospect in the perimeter.

I mean, only one of those teams had an All-Star level point guard.

[rascal]

I really like this guy.

77ak65Rvq4M

Some other poster proposed moving up to Miami's #18 by just giving up #33 and taking on Lowry's contract. I don't know if this is a realistic scenario, but I would jump on that opportunity if this guy was still available.

Yes, He looks better than Black offensively and he's good enough on defense.

[Mr. Body]

I really like this guy.

77ak65Rvq4M

Some other poster proposed moving up to Miami's #18 by just giving up #33 and taking on Lowry's contract. I don't know if this is a realistic scenario, but I would jump on that opportunity if this guy was still available.

Bufkin may have the highest floor of the top lottery-type guards we're discussing. I've mentioned before that his last ten games he was over a 50/40/90 split. Not totally sustainable, but once the team focused more on him his impact was clear.

I'm not sure whether he can defer to others and distribute enough to be a lead. I do believe he can. Also, in interviews he comes off as very serious, able to talk about basketball at a high level.

[DAF86]

Vassell is much closer to being Middleton than he is Holiday, who is a floor general and PG.

Middleton was the primary ball handler on that Bucks team that won the championship, unless you think Vassell can become the primary ball handler of a championship team, he is nothing like Middleton, tbh.

[DAF86]

I mean, only one of those teams had an All-Star level point guard.

For all intent and pourpuses guys like Lebron, Kawhi, Middleton, etc. where the PG's on those championship teams, that is, the guy that handled the ball the most in the perimeter, the guy that ran the pick and roll most as the ball-handler, the primary playmaker, etc.

You don't want to call those guys PG, fine, the Spurs do need to add that all-star perimeter guy, and that's a hell of a lot more important than adding a defensive PG that can keep defenses honest.

[Mr. Body]

For all intent and pourpuses guys like Lebron, Kawhi, Middleton, etc. where the PG's on those championship teams, that is, the guy that handled the ball the most in the perimeter, the guy that ran the pick and roll most as the ball-handler, the primary playmaker, etc.

You don't want to call those guys PG, fine, the Spurs do need to add that all-star perimeter guy, and that's a hell of a lot more important than adding a defensive PG that can keep defenses honest.

So you're just shifting now. No, we don't need an All-Star point guard. We do need good perimeter players. That's not a big surprise.

[DAF86]

Two different points you're making:

That we need an All-Star point guard. Heavy, total disagreement.

Not necessarilly a PG, just a perimeter guy in general that is a 3 level threat. It is easier to find in PGs though.


That this draft isn't a place even to get a good starter. Also disagree.

Never said that. In fact, I just proposed Bufkin as a guy I would be interested in.


The mania for a point that needs to carry a huge scoring load and be a star -- just disagree fundamentally.

You haven't been paying attention to the NBA for the past 15 years if you think a championship team doesn't need a 3 level scorer perimeter guy on it's lineup.

[DAF86]

So you're just shifting now. No, we don't need an All-Star point guard. We do need good perimeter players. That's not a big surprise.

No, no, no. Not just "good", an all-star level perimeter guy that can score from anywhere. A guy like Black isn't that.

[LeBowen]

So you're just shifting now. No, we don't need an All-Star point guard. We do need good perimeter players. That's not a big surprise.

Forget about labels and semantics.
As I said, we need a pnr triple threat. Getting another nephew would obviously be way better than having a 6'3 guard do it, but those players don't come around very often.

Middleton averages 6 assists since Bucks became a contender while being an elite shooter of the dribble.

Since he started having injury trouble Bucks offense has been horrible to watch. Yeah, some of it is on Bud, but as good of a defender as Jrue is, he's not a scorer and it really hurt them these last two seasons.

Murray technically never made an all-star apperaance, but we're talking about a guy who just had a 30/10 game in the finals.

Steph needs no explanation and Lakers offense went to shit without another consistent creator next to Lebron.

Going all the way back to 2014, it was probably the best team basketball we've ever seen, but it wouldn't have been a thing without Tony/Manu being able to collapse defenses and get the ball going.


Athletic guards with questionable range are being phased out of the league. The only way it works is if for example Scoot becomes the next Westbrook and has ridiculous output to compensate for his lack of shooting.
Anything less than being an MVP candidate and he's not worth the money he's going to demand after his rookie deal. And not worth the pick.

That's why I'd prefer having a more or less guaranteed, but a bit overpaid player like Garland, than gambling with guards that are nowhere near being a guaranteed thing.

Wemby is the biggest prospect in decades, but still a risk. We need to enable him to become the best possible version of himself and you don't do that by surrounding him with rookie guards that have questionable shooting.

[Atl Spur]

Forget guard, give me Jarace walker!

[mo7888]

Forget guard, give me Jarace walker!

I'm very high on him...#3 on my board...

[poopbox]

The disappointment in this thread when Spurs just sign Tre to an extension and let Sochan be the point to start the game :lol

[mo7888]

The disappointment in this thread when Spurs just sign Tre to an extension and let Sochan be the point to start the game :lol

I don't think anybody expects us to trade up for a PG. There are guys we may like in certain ranges, but there's not a real expectation that we move up.

[Mr. Body]

The disappointment in this thread when Spurs just sign Tre to an extension and let Sochan be the point to start the game :lol

How is Sochan supposed to defend point guards in this league?

[exstatic]

How is Sochan supposed to defend point guards in this league?

Easily?

[Degoat]

The guy not being talked about tbh is Malaki as a PG. He played some during the season and did a great job the biggest problem is defensively but maybe Wemby helps clean that up.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

How is Sochan supposed to defend point guards in this league?
1593120008766337030

[Mr. Body]

1593120008766337030

Sochan full time on points is a terrible idea.

[DAF86]

Sochan full time on points is a terrible idea.

Why?

[Mr. Body]

Why?

Wearing himself out chasing after SGA and Fox? Are you people serious?

He has switchability. That doesn't mean you want to stick him on foul-aggressive, fast guards all the time. He can't do it. You're going to wear him out. You're going to get him into foul trouble. He's not going to be able to consistently stay in front of them. On offense, his value is being faster than players his size. He's not an exceptional post-up guy, which is what you'd do if a guard switches onto him, and that's Wembanyama territory anyway. And then you take away his slashing ability against bigs.

Just, no. Why on earth would you think this could work?

[BacktoBasics]

Why?

As much as this forum loves to talk about his pg skills he’s not a full time pg. A change of pace or mismatch purposes that’s fine but he doesn’t have the archetype to hold the position for 40 minutes per game. Particularly lacks the handles and defensive speed.

[Mr. Body]

As much as this forum loves to talk about his pg skills he’s not a full time pg. A change of pace or mismatch purposes that’s fine but he doesn’t have the archetype to hold the position for 40 minutes per game. Particularly lacks the handles.

I think people don't realize half the game is on the defensive side.

[BacktoBasics]

I think people don't realize half the game is on the defensive side.

I edited defense speed because you’re right on point there.

[exstatic]

Wearing himself out chasing after SGA and Fox? Are you people serious?

He has switchability. That doesn't mean you want to stick him on foul-aggressive, fast guards all the time. He can't do it. You're going to wear him out. You're going to get him into foul trouble. He's not going to be able to consistently stay in front of them. On offense, his value is being faster than players his size. He's not an exceptional post-up guy, which is what you'd do if a guard switches onto him, and that's Wembanyama territory anyway. And then you take away his slashing ability against bigs.

Just, no. Why on earth would you think this could work?

He's 20. Will I want him doing it at 30? Probably not.

Imagine that there is a team running PnR between the PG and the center. Jeremy is guarding the point, and Zach, a very switchable center, is guarding their center. They switch, and there's no obvious mismatch, and 6 seconds left on the clock.

[Mr. Body]

He's 20. Will I want him doing it at 30? Probably not.

Imagine that there is a team running PnR between the PG and the center. Jeremy is guarding the point, and Zach, a very switchable center, is guarding their center. They switch, and there's no obvious mismatch, and 6 seconds left on the clock.

Good luck with that.

You want Sochan playing defense down lower anyway, where he can do more damage.

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

doesn't surprise anybody here

[scott]

1. Next draft looks pretty weak in PGs. Of course, no way of telling until games start. I don't want to count on getting the solution here.


What is the basis of this conclusion? I agree with the second part of your statement (no way of telling until games start), but PG actually seems like an area of depth in the early reads of next year's draft. Isaiah Collier, DJ Wagner, Cody Williams, Tyrese Proctor, and of course Bronny are some of the early names to watch at the PG position. Granted, all of them could go to the way of Nick Smith Jr or Emoni Bates after actually playing ball... but it doesn't appear that next year will be a weak PG class at this point...

[TD 21]

Garland is an unrealistic target.

I'm most intrigued by Bufkin out of the projected late lottery/teens PG/combo guards too and if he was available at 18 at the Heat were amendable to Lowry (either reroute or buyout) and it for 33, I'd definitely do it, but I'm doubtful on both counts.

Bailey reminds me of Joseph. I could see him being a candidate at 33.

[scott]

I simply took a criteria that you applied as a negative to Black, and applied it to Scoot. Has nothing to do with athleticism.

I know your stance on age, just as you know mine, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of FRPs are 18/19, not 21/22, so I think the NBA kind of sees it more my way. If you stick around in college until you're 21/22, you're stronger and more physically developed, but it doesn't make you a better star prospect, IMO. I don't see it being much different from the 20YO Thompsons playing against 15/16 YO kids.

IMO, the age topic is really interesting and I tend to fall into the camp that the NBA generally overrates youth, the same way all professional sports teams overrate unknowns over knowns. Derrick White fell to number 29 because of his age, but is easily one of the top 10 players from that draft. Teams want the youth because it provides a roll of the dice for higher upside, but if we pick players based on their expected median outcome rather than the highest end of their potential (which you brought up as a Dean philosophy the other day), then older players would be valued higher. These older players typically have a lower range of outcomes (meaning a lower ceiling but a higher floor, because more is known about them) but their median outcome is higher than a lot of younger players.

As an example of this, there will undoubtedly be teams who take some young exciting prospect in this draft who in 3 years will look back and realize they'd have been better off taking Jaime Jaquez, as an example.

[Mr. Body]

I just realized Kobe Bufkin reminds me of Devin Harris. Man, that guy killed us.

[sfernald]

I like the idea of taking back some salary to our cap space or filling in as a third team in a big trade to try to pick up a good point guard option.

Some ideas:

Help Pelicans trade Zion/Ingram to Charlotte/Portland. We could take Dyson Daniels and return like two low end future firsts and two seconds. That could be used to grease that trade and make it work. And we get a great potential point guard of the future. Strong defender and great connector piece.

if Charlotte does draft Scoot, it’s looking like they will be trying to get rid of Rozier. I don’t think he’d cost much, probably mostly cap space at this point and he would be a good vet leader point guard to bring in for a couple years. Actually a really decent player. Poor man’s Westbrook.

I could see them trying to acquire a recent lottery point guard prospect that maybe didn’t hit like expected. I like Jalen Suggs from Orlando or maybe Killian Hayes from the Pistons and think they would come pretty cheap. Both good defenders. Sometimes it’s just the situation or the organization and the Spurs player development team can perform miracles where other teams fail.

I like all of these cause they won’t cost us too much, so it’s a more low cost, high reward swing that say trying grab Amen or Black which might cost the farm.

[Degoat]

While I don’t really anticipate it happening the spurs trading Keldon would be pretty similar to them trading George Hill back in the day. Both guys are fan favorites and loved by the team but it might be necessary to take that next step. (We were trying to win back then tho)

[jesterbobman]

I'd avoid Sochan as a full time PG for a couple of reasons.
1. He isn't a full time advantage creator as a primary initiator. He's a good passer, works well as a connective passer but that's a connective role, like Lonzo (pre injuries). I think it's better for an offense to have more guys like that, and making him a PG full time limits that value as an off ball mover / cutter and connector.
2. Lack of off the dribble shooting to initiate actions and draw defenders.

Positions are more fluid now than they've been in the past, and you can get those skills from others in the lineup (Vassell as an off the dribble shooter is decent, Wemby will (hopefully) eventually be a big creator for others at a high level) but having more creation and off the bounce juice is good.

You can run a huge lineup with Sochan /Vassell / Keldon / Wemby / Collins, and that'd have some good elements (huge, help defense should be great), though off the dribble / movement shooting would be a limitation. I think you want more offensive flexibility, and to me, the easiest fit is replacing Keldon with a shooting PG in that lineup.

[Big Empty]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

[sfernald]

I'd avoid Sochan as a full time PG for a couple of reasons.
1. He isn't a full time advantage creator as a primary initiator. He's a good passer, works well as a connective passer but that's a connective role, like Lonzo (pre injuries). I think it's better for an offense to have more guys like that, and making him a PG full time limits that value as an off ball mover / cutter and connector.
2. Lack of off the dribble shooting to initiate actions and draw defenders.

Positions are more fluid now than they've been in the past, and you can get those skills from others in the lineup (Vassell as an off the dribble shooter is decent, Wemby will (hopefully) eventually be a big creator for others at a high level) but having more creation and off the bounce juice is good.

You can run a huge lineup with Sochan /Vassell / Keldon / Wemby / Collins, and that'd have some good elements (huge, help defense should be great), though off the dribble / movement shooting would be a limitation. I think you want more offensive flexibility, and to me, the easiest fit is replacing Keldon with a shooting PG in that lineup.



It depends on the offense you want to run, but I’d give Sochan at least a shot at it.

He’s such a naturally smart player that he might be able to develop as a Dramond level passer and hub. But maybe the best idea is to imitate the Nuggies and play Wemby as Jokic in the offense right from the beginning.

Isn’t that really where things are headed eventually anyway? Isn’t this his team and we want him to have the same type of usage as any MVP level player such as Joker or Lebron?

[sfernald]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

I do too actually. He’s been working out with Shai and he reminds me a lot of him. Some players don’t need the athleticism, they just have it. The 70% finishing at the rim gives that away to me.

[BacktoBasics]

I like Bufkin over Black. He’s a more realistic trade up of the Spurs like him

I don’t like him over Black but I agree he’s a more realistic target. Bufkin has been treading on mocks to go between 11-16

[Mr. Body]

If Washington has Wallace at 8 and Utah indeed takes Bilal at 9 then Black probably tumbles out of the top 10. Not sure about either of those. After around OKC at 12 it's sort of a free for all, hard to predict. You could see Bufkin out of the lottery and closer to where he was weeks ago.

[BacktoBasics]

If Washington has Wallace at 8 and Utah indeed takes Bilal at 9 then Black probably tumbles out of the top 10. Not sure about either of those. After around OKC at 12 it's sort of a free for all, hard to predict. You could see Bufkin out of the lottery and closer to where he was weeks ago.

If Black falls to 10 Spurs should have a pre draft deal in place. 10 should be affordable enough that we don’t need to part with our core. Unfortunately it would take a 3rd team because Dallas isn’t stockpiling picks and I don’t think it would be smart to trade Keldon at this point.

Collins would fit on Dallas roster. But obviously it would take considerably more. A couple of firsts could be moved for a player Dallas covets more.

I’d have no problem moving Collins and 2 firsts for Black at 10.

I don’t see Black falling to 10 though.

[jesterbobman]

It depends on the offense you want to run, but I’d give Sochan at least a shot at it.

He’s such a naturally smart player that he might be able to develop as a Dramond level passer and hub. But maybe the best idea is to imitate the Nuggies and play Wemby as Jokic in the offense right from the beginning.

Isn’t that really where things are headed eventually anyway? Isn’t this his team and we want him to have the same type of usage as any MVP level player such as Joker or Lebron?

I don't think Wemby is likely to be (probably ever) the passer that Jokic is. I think he'll be central, but have more of a mix of creator / finisher off other people's actions, rather than a pure central creator. I think you want to use Wemby's skills as an ELITE at the rim finisher off of other people creating. Sochan can be a hand off hub / and the Draymond connector, but Draymond is best as a Creator in a broken set / taking advantage of Steph's initial pressure. I think Sochan could be great at that Draymond role, though that still needs an initial creator to make it work. I don't think you want Wemby doing that as a heliocentric creator all of the time.

I think the Wemby model is closest to (I mean, still some distance, but closest) Giannis as a big primary / face up creator, who works really well with other creators so you can take advantage of finishing. I think that needs another smaller initiator so that there's a clearer size mismatch in a pick and roll and force the opposing team to shift focus either to Wemby (leaving an off the dribble shooter open ish) or let Wemby have a free ride to finish at the rim.

[spurraider21]

Yes, Bufkin or Jalen Hood-Shifino should be the targets at a lower cost.

Bufkin looks solid in all areas.

I like Hood-Shifino's game more than Black. Has better shooting mechanics and already is solid on hitting his mid range shot. Hood-Shifino looks far better on shooting off the dribble than Black. Hood-Shifino's defense is also not bad.

Black doesn't jump off the floor on his shot. This will play smaller than his height in the NBA. Black has a push shot(heaves it up) and doesn't have good form on it.

The Spurs need a pg who can at least hit mid range shots at a good rate.
agreed on the shooting mechanics. he'll get even better as he ages. i think black is a more physical defender than he is and i'd trust him more if he had to switch onto a wing. black also seems to process the game faster and is better at making the right read/pass while rarely being late to do so. hood-schifino flashes but is much less consistent.

other than scoot, basically all the top PG prospects in this draft look like solid complementary pieces that can play defense, which really is what the spurs should be looking for. whether it be Black/Wallace/Hood-Schifino/Bufkin. i havent watched much amari bailey but some guys here seem very high on him too, and he profiles similarly from what little ive seen

[SpursFan86]

https://twitter.com/ajohnsonnba/status/1668630719961366528?s=46&t=7J7PSnY8RJS8_UemWCmgcA

Draft night shaping up to be very interesting…trying not to get my hopes up because I’m still skeptical the Spurs actually move up into the lottery, but damn the hype will be real this season if we end up landing a PG in the first round :lol

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/ajohnsonnba/status/1668630719961366528?s=46&t=7J7PSnY8RJS8_UemWCmgcA

Draft night shaping up to be very interesting…trying not to get my hopes up because I’m still skeptical the Spurs actually move up into the lottery, but damn the hype will be real this season if we end up landing a PG in the first round :lol
unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

[DAF86]

As much as this forum loves to talk about his pg skills he’s not a full time pg. A change of pace or mismatch purposes that’s fine but he doesn’t have the archetype to hold the position for 40 minutes per game. Particularly lacks the handles and defensive speed.

I agree he shouldn't play PG on offense, on defense? I don't see why not. Don't get it twisted, Sochan has some nice skills on offense but if he really is gonna make a name for himself in this league, it will be on the defensive end first of foremost. Him guarding the other team's best player 1 through 4 ala Bowen, should be a requeriment for him.

[DAF86]

Wearing himself out chasing after SGA and Fox? Are you people serious?

He has switchability. That doesn't mean you want to stick him on foul-aggressive, fast guards all the time. He can't do it. You're going to wear him out. You're going to get him into foul trouble. He's not going to be able to consistently stay in front of them. On offense, his value is being faster than players his size. He's not an exceptional post-up guy, which is what you'd do if a guard switches onto him, and that's Wembanyama territory anyway. And then you take away his slashing ability against bigs.

Just, no. Why on earth would you think this could work?

Read above, him guarding opposing PGs, doesn't mean he would play PG on offense. In fact, I'm one of the most vocal posters in this forum against the "Sochan for PG" experiment.

Sochan will be a defense first guy, if there's a side of the floor where he should be spending most of his energy, it's on that end.

[BacktoBasics]

I agree he shouldn't play PG on offense, on defense? I don't see why not. Don't get it twisted, Sochan has some nice skills on offense but if he really is gonna make a name for himself in this league, it will be on the defensive end first of foremost. Him guarding the other team's best player 1 through 4 ala Bowen, should be a requeriment for him.

It'll happen no disagreement on that but the point above in response to you is a good point. There’s no reason to run out another PF alongside Sochan so he can chase around a pg all game. Sochan at pg is a pick and choose your moments. Not a permanent position.

[sfernald]

I don’t like him over Black but I agree he’s a more realistic target. Bufkin has been treading on mocks to go between 11-16

yeah.

11 Orlando - very little chance
12 Okc - decent chance, has been working out with SGA, seems like an OKC player
13 Raptors - doesn’t seem likely
14 New Orleans — ???
15 Atlanta — ???

id say after 13 it’s a total crapshoot. If you can get #13 from the Pelicans I think you have an excellent chance of snagging him tho.

[sfernald]

unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

I really hope we can find a salary dump deal. I could see something like Nets #21 and Nets #22 for taking Ben Simmons contract (2 years at roughly 30 mil). Then I could see trading those two picks to Dallas at #10 (Dallas needs more than can be filled in one draft pick). Then snag Black at #10 who I really think could be there, depending on how the dominos fall draft night. That’s the sneaky kind of shit I hope they are able to pull off.

[Mr. Body]

unless keldon is part of a deal, getting into the top 10 is going to be tough given we arent simply moving up from later in the first. moving into the teens or early 20s is more feasible. i dont think the spurs are going to want to send 3 future firsts or somethin to move up into the top 10, even if theyre the worse/protected ones

and then if we move keldon, we are going to be in a position like last year where we basically are scrambling to find people to spend money on, or hoping we can get a salary dump deal that we couldnt pull off last year.

Yeah, agree. I don't think any top 10 are available anyway except to high bidders and the Spurs will keep Keldon and definitely keep Collins.

There might be a way they can get the Warriors pick or one of Brooklyns for future capital (neither has a first or second next year, so give them one of each as basis). Then use that pick to move further up, but by then you're talking maybe two future firsts and some seconds to get your guy in the late lotto, if at all possible.

[spurraider21]

I really hope we can find a salary dump deal. I could see something like Nets #21 and Nets #22 for taking Ben Simmons contract (2 years at roughly 30 mil). Then I could see trading those two picks to Dallas at #10 (Dallas needs more than can be filled in one draft pick). Then snag Black at #10 who I really think could be there, depending on how the dominos fall draft night. That’s the sneaky kind of shit I hope they are able to pull off.
nets are going to eat simmons tbh

he's going to be way too difficult to move and they're not in the position to be giving away assets

[sfernald]

nets are going to eat simmons tbh

he's going to be way too difficult to move and they're not in the position to be giving away assets

We’ll see. You are probably right, but Nets are one of the few teams who make huge risky trades and Ben Simmons might need to be a part of the trade to make it work and we are one of the few teams out there capable of just absorbing his salary, and that is not something done cheaply.

[Mr. Body]

Nets will need to give up way more than a 20 and a 21 to get rid of Simmons' salary. That thing is hideous.

[sfernald]

I’m fine with 2 first and 2 seconds as long as we get one of the guys we really want. My preference beyond Scoot and Amen would be Ausar (convert to point guard, I truly believe he can do anything his bro can do) and right behind him Cason Wallace. Either of those two guys would be worth 2 first and 2 seconds in a heartbeat.

[sfernald]

Nets will need to give up way more than a 20 and a 21 to get rid of Simmons' salary. That thing is hideous.

I mean they could definitely throw in a wing defender like Royce or maybe Seth Curry (he might be free agent actually), but you get the idea. Maybe throw in Spencer Dimwiddie. I think he averaged like 8 assists last year in Jersey.

[scott]

https://twitter.com/ajohnsonnba/status/1668630719961366528?s=46&t=7J7PSnY8RJS8_UemWCmgcA

Draft night shaping up to be very interesting…trying not to get my hopes up because I’m still skeptical the Spurs actually move up into the lottery, but damn the hype will be real this season if we end up landing a PG in the first round :lol

Here's the tweet, embedded:

1668630719961366528

That's a lot of sellers, probably more than they are buyers since the Top 10 doesn't seem to be where the value is in this draft.

[DAF86]

If we stay put at 33, I wouldn't mind the Spurs drsfting this guy:

6DY85Cvn9Es

It would be a nice change of pace to draft someone with elite shooting.

[Mr. Body]

Here's the tweet, embedded:

1668630719961366528

That's a lot of sellers, probably more than they are buyers since the Top 10 doesn't seem to be where the value is in this draft.

Nods sagely.

OKC wants up.

Utah wants a second one, or maybe to package and move up with their 9.

Not sure about any others.

[exstatic]

Nods sagely.

OKC wants up.

Utah wants a second one, or maybe to package and move up with their 9.

Not sure about any others.

Utah already has 3 FRPs.

[PhantomDashCam]

When was the last time the Spurs didn't give ample time for a first round pick to succeed through development? (Primo obviously forced the FOs hand so let's not go there).

If the intel from timvp is accurate, (and I have no reason to doubt it), the Wemby-process/crapshoot has been in place for a while now.
With that being said, I'd find it hard to believe they wouldn't have a plan in place for Blake Wesley to be given a bigger role next season if there is significant signs of improvement through Summer League.
He, in theory, could be exactly what many in the thread have described already: lightning quick, able to break initial defenses down, improving shooter, C&S threat from 3, tenacious on-ball defender etc.

I remember George Hill's first Summer League and parts of his first season, and I don't think anybody optimistically could have projected the improvement from Year 1 to Year 2.

Not saying he will take that great of a leap but the Spurs usually err on the side of caution, patience and internal development with these things. Writing a player off after one season seems imprudent.
He's going to have to play if they are committed to his development and I think he will, backing up Tre Jones to start the year.

I expect a big Summer from him.

Edit: Article added

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2023/6/10/23756210/the-skill-blake-wesley-should-focus-on-to-continue-his-development

[Mr. Body]

Utah already has 3 FRPs.

How many are in the top 10?

[Mr. Body]

When was the last time the Spurs didn't give ample time for a first round pick to succeed through development? (Primo obviously forced the FOs hand so let's not go there).

If the intel from timvp is accurate, (and I have no reason to doubt it), the Wemby-process/crapshoot has been in place for a while now.
With that being said, I'd find it hard to believe they wouldn't have a plan in place for Blake Wesley to be given a bigger role next season if there is significant signs of improvement through Summer League.
He, in theory, could be exactly what many in the thread have described already: lightning quick, able to break initial defenses down, improving shooter, C&S threat from 3, tenacious on-ball defender etc.

I remember George Hill's first Summer League and parts of his first season, and I don't think anybody optimistically could have projected the improvement from Year 1 to Year 2.

Not saying he will take that great of a leap but the Spurs usually err on the side of caution, patience and internal development with these things. Writing a player off after one season seems imprudent.
He's going to have to play if they are committed to his development and I think he will, backing up Tre Jones to start the year.

I expect a big Summer from him.

Sure, but why would you let everything hang on Blake Wesley?

[Degoat]

I agree, I really think that meniscus tear really put Wesley behind the curve for the season. Last years Summer league he looked like a dog out there!

[PhantomDashCam]

Sure, but why would you let everything hang on Blake Wesley?

I don't think you do and I'm not saying you should.
I just find it difficult to believe the Spurs would be throwing him to the scrap heap after his first season (especially an injury plagued one).

They are likely to have a role/opportunity in place for him. Not sure I buy the idea of the Spurs trading future capital to move up and log jam a position for developmental competition.
If a BPA PG is available with the second rounders, that pick is likely going to the G League at first, irrespective of if he outplays Wesley in camp.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think you do and I'm not saying you should.
I just find it difficult to believe the Spurs would be throwing him to the scrap heap after his first season (especially an injury plagued one).

They are likely to have a role/opportunity in place for him. Not sure I buy the idea of the Spurs trading future capital to move up and log jam a position for developmental competition.
If a BPA PG is available with the second rounders, that pick is likely going to the G League at first, irrespective of if he outplays Wesley in camp.

That's fair, and I'm not sure a lot of people are throwing Blake away. I admit my optimism with him comes and goes. Ultimately, I don't think it's wise to hang a starting PG on his development. Honestly, I don't think that's fair to him, either.

My push/desire for a PG right now stems from two major things:

- We have a ton of draft capital we need to somehow use.
- This draft has a good number of creative guards.

We can never have enough players who can pressure defenses, drive, kick, getting back closer to the beautiful game. We're seeing the trouble having too many draft picks can be for a team like Thunder, and probably Utah this year. Somehow we have to use them. Why not go for another budding young player who can begin their development now? If one or two are attractive, try for them. If it doesn't work, then you've kept your powder dry. No big deal.

[KobesAchilles]

I’m just not seeing a point guard I want in this draft. Who is the best SF in the draft? Can we trade
for that? I would like some size and length at that position

[exstatic]

I agree, I really think that meniscus tear really put Wesley behind the curve for the season. Last years Summer league he looked like a dog out there!

It was his medial collateral ligament, not his meniscus.

[rankingtear]

Devin is an elite PNR scorer at the wings at 84 percentile this is Middleton territory. Branham is advanced for his age at 66 percentile. How? Vassell is statistically a top 10 jump shooter and Branham is top 5 on floaters. Who in this cluster of guards has a top 10 skill on offense when they come into the league? Keyonte off ball shooting and maybe Bufkin finishing.

[Ariel]

I don't think you do and I'm not saying you should.
I just find it difficult to believe the Spurs would be throwing him to the scrap heap after his first season (especially an injury plagued one).

They are likely to have a role/opportunity in place for him. Not sure I buy the idea of the Spurs trading future capital to move up and log jam a position for developmental competition.
If a BPA PG is available with the second rounders, that pick is likely going to the G League at first, irrespective of if he outplays Wesley in camp.
Blake shouldn't be discarded, but also no opportunity should be passed up on because we're counting on him. He was a project, we always knew that, and we used a late pick were there were no clearly better altervatives. He should continue to work hard and be evaluated on a yearly basis. If he shows progress, keep him on the roster. If he doesn't, move on. As long as we don't use his presence on the team to justify passing on better talent, we'll be fine either way.

[Mr. Body]

So... no new options out of the 2023 draft. We may never know if ORL was sending the 11 pick to us -- the Thunder jumped over to take Cason Wallace at 10. A strange move given ORL wasn't going to take any PG at that spot.

If a trade was possible, then the Spurs could have taken Bufkin, so... either they don't value Bufkin or the trade was never an option.

ANYWAY... the PG position is still a big question.

What we have now:
1. Resign Tre Jones. This was always going to happen, but is extra important now.
2. Develop Blake Wesley. He has good initial skills. Few players have his blow-by speed.
3. Utilize Devonte Graham. While he's not a long-term solution, he's a willing shooter, can handle the ball, and a good chap.
4. Other facilitators are on the roster, although defense worries me.

Other options:
1. We have FA options, I suppose, but it's not clear who these are.
2. We draft someone in the future.