We Still Need a Point Guard

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Just catching up on this thread… so… we still need a point guard right?

:lol

[MultiTroll]

Perhaps the FOs timeline is like, yes of course we want a kick ass PG now to pair with Wama, and preferably stay for the next 5-10 years and amass Championships. However since one simply is not available now (unless you know of one and have not posted it on SpursTalk yet) we're not dead set having Wembys 1st year be an end all.

Wait and see how Torontos 1st pick shakes down after the season, and then combined with other huge draft capital perhaps find another Ginobili or Parker in the following year(s).

[JPB]

Perhaps the FOs timeline is like, yes of course we want a kick ass PG now to pair with Wama, and preferably stay for the next 5-10 years and amass Championships. However since one simply is not available now (unless you know of one and have not posted it on SpursTalk yet) we're not dead set having Wembys 1st year be an end all.

Wait and see how Torontos 1st pick shakes down after the season, and then combined with other huge draft capital perhaps find another Ginobili or Parker in the following year(s).

Or trade for Luka within the next 2 years.

I have the feeling it's gonna be a mess with Flat Earther.

[exstatic]

Or trade for Luka within the next 2 years.

I have the feeling it's gonna be a mess with Flat Earther.

They were terrible with both of them on the floor last year, like Spurs/Rockets bad.

[Seventyniner]

They were terrible with both of them on the floor last year, like Spurs/Rockets bad.

Where do you find player pair data like that?

[exstatic]

Where do you find player pair data like that?

Can’t remember the article source. If I think of it, I’ll post the link.

[pad300]

Where do you find player pair data like that?

This is a pretty good place to start,

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?slug=advanced&GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612742

although that doesn't back up what exstatic posted...
At 444 minutes together (on the second of 8 pages)
K. Irving - L. Doncic Net Rtg +4.2

[Seventyniner]

This is a pretty good place to start,

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?slug=advanced&GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612742

although that doesn't back up what exstatic posted...
At 444 minutes together (on the second of 8 pages)
K. Irving - L. Doncic Net Rtg +4.2

The DRtg for that pair was 115.0, a hair below league average (114.8).

That league average is the highest in league history by a pretty good margin (2020-2021, 112.3). The no-defense all-pace 1980s had league average ORtg around 108, but in the last few seasons it has gone over 110 and is trending higher.

I remember a lot of comments about the Spurs' DRtg last year (120.0) being the worst in league history. As an absolute number it's a true statement, but relative to league average it isn't.

For example, the 2014-2015 Wolves had the worst DRtg in the league at 112.2, while the league average was 105.6. That Wolves team had a worse defense relative to league average by both absolute difference (-6.6) and percentage difference (+6.25%) than the 2022-2023 Spurs (-5.2, +4.53%).

All defenses suck now when compared to the past. The best DRtg in the league in 2022-2023 was the Cavs at 110.6, but just 3 seasons ago that would have been league average and in 2017-2018 it would have ranked 21st in the league.

[Dejounte]

The DRtg for that pair was 115.0, a hair below league average (114.8).

That league average is the highest in league history by a pretty good margin (2020-2021, 112.3). The no-defense all-pace 1980s had league average ORtg around 108, but in the last few seasons it has gone over 110 and is trending higher.

I remember a lot of comments about the Spurs' DRtg last year (120.0) being the worst in league history. As an absolute number it's a true statement, but relative to league average it isn't.

For example, the 2014-2015 Wolves had the worst DRtg in the league at 112.2, while the league average was 105.6. That Wolves team had a worse defense relative to league average by both absolute difference (-6.6) and percentage difference (+6.25%) than the 2022-2023 Spurs (-5.2, +4.53%).

All defenses suck now when compared to the past. The best DRtg in the league in 2022-2023 was the Cavs at 110.6, but just 3 seasons ago that would have been league average and in 2017-2018 it would have ranked 21st in the league.
Great research and a lesson for everyone not to take stats at face value.

[MultiTroll]

Or trade for Luka within the next 2 years.

I have the feeling it's gonna be a mess with Flat Earther.
I like it.
We all want to see a Chip as soon as possible.
But if it takes 2-3 even 4 years to get another GNob and Parker to start racking and stacking Chips that will work!

If Spurs hit it earlier with some sick draft pic or trades, so much the better.

[JeffDuncan]

…
We all want to see a Chip as soon as possible.
But if it takes 2-3 even 4 years to get another GNob and Parker to start racking and stacking Chips that will work!
…


The problem is, if Wemby sees the Spurs still fuddling around with rebuilding four years from now, he’ll probably leave. And who could blame him.

Presuming that Wemby’s potential is developed and largely realized, every team in the NBA will want him. Why should he sign a second contract with the Spurs if they’re still dorking around looking for a stinking point guard? Heck, I’d say he shouldn’t, if that’s how things turn out.

In the 2013-14 season, Cory Joseph started 19 games for the Spurs. They were 14-5 in those games. Was that great record because Joseph was an all-star point guard? Nah. He was just a competent player on an outstanding team.

The Spurs don’t need an all-star point guard to team with Wemby. They just need a competent one, with an eye toward building a strong team overall.

[MultiTroll]

Presuming that Wemby’s potential is developed and largely realized, every team in the NBA will want him. Why should he sign a second contract with the Spurs if they’re still dorking around looking for a stinking point guard? Heck, I’d say he shouldn’t, if that’s how things turn out.

The Spurs don’t need an all-star point guard to team with Wemby. They just need a competent one, with an eye toward building a strong team overall.
Good points all.
Think we got to have an All Star or two somewhere in the lineup tho. Wemby is gonna get doubled and tripled and you know numerous cheap shots are coming his way from amoral dipshits like Coward Kerrs teams.
Don't forsee us being the 2004 Pistons but if that kind of team ball works, bring it on!

[Knoxxx]

One problem we did face the last several years was every team we played seemed to have at least a couple (if not three) players better than our best player.

[Em-City]

Cam payne wishes he was still with the suns.

May as well cut him

[exstatic]

Cam payne wishes he was still with the suns.

May as well cut him

Is there a quote behind that statement?

[Em-City]

Is there a quote behind that statement?

Horses mouth:

https://twitter.com/ClutchPoints/status/1689685568936976391?t=960qOPxX8aYPaub9MrCTsg&s=19

[HankChinaski]

He didn't request a trade so nothing wrong in feeling bad about being moved. He plays weak in SA then he doesn't make the cut and is released/traded end of story

[JPB]

This is a pretty good place to start,

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?slug=advanced&GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612742

although that doesn't back up what exstatic posted...
At 444 minutes together (on the second of 8 pages)
K. Irving - L. Doncic Net Rtg +4.2

Luka and FE are 5-11 together. Net Rtg is an interesting stat but the sample size (16 games) is too short... A couple of blow out wins can biase it. Besides, isolating 2 players don't necessarily tells the whole story. They're kind of a 2 man show, not really involving everyone around, which is felt when one of two sits... The challenge for Dallas is for their supporting cast to find some room to exist and dont just feel they're just extras in the movie.

[JPB]

Luka and FE are 5-11 together. Net Rtg is an interesting stat but the sample size (16 games) is too short... A couple of blow out wins can biase it. Besides, isolating 2 players don't necessarily tells the whole story. They're kind of a 2 man show, not really involving everyone around, which is felt when one of two sits... The challenge for Dallas is for their supporting cast to find some room to exist and dont just feel they're just extras in the movie.

Quoting myself to add that there's also what you could call "Kyrie entropy" telling you that the more time passes, the more something wrong is prone to happen with him.

[R. DeMurre]

I'm not defending the Luka/Kyrie pairing, but to be fair the rest of that team is pretty bad.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

We don't need a point guard...we need a point god.

[MultiTroll]

Cam payne wishes he was still with the suns.

May as well cut him


Horses mouth:

https://twitter.com/ClutchPoints/status/1689685568936976391?t=960qOPxX8aYPaub9MrCTsg&s=19
Translation available for his mumbling?
Did he really say "I wish i be back in Phoenix now." ?

[MultiTroll]

Horses mouth:

https://twitter.com/ClutchPoints/status/1689685568936976391?t=960qOPxX8aYPaub9MrCTsg&s=19
"I wish i was in Phoenix still."

Show this assclown the door ASAP.

[JPB]

"I wish i was in Phoenix still."

Show this assclown the door ASAP.

Is that when you say snowflake millenial needs his safe space?

[MultiTroll]

Is that when you say snowflake millenial needs his safe space?
:lol
I get it had Payne have said "I miss Phoenix __." since beyond basketball he may have had GF etc, peeps he misses in PHX.

By adding the word "now" he can go F himself if he does not see the potential of being with Wama.
Get back to snuggling with Durbetta and BookerDashian.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

All the Suns are pu$$ies so why should Payne be any different.


Suns have been the Spurs’ bitch for 30+ years now.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

sounds faded

[TrainOfThought5]

We don't need a point guard...we need a point god.

this. We don’t even have a real floor general right now.

[MultiTroll]

Quoting myself to add that there's also what you could call "Kyrie entropy" telling you that the more time passes, the more something wrong is prone to happen with him.


I'm not defending the Luka/Kyrie pairing, but to be fair the rest of that team is pretty bad.
Luka would indeed be a score, Xs 100 if he could be gotten as an unrestricted FA to be a Spurs in 26/27. But of course Cuban sure as H isn't going to let him walk. He'll be traded in 25-26 if the situation in Dallas blows. Problem most likely for Spurs is we won't have or want to trade a bunch of good players away to get Luka.

Trying to think of other bona fide legit top 10 players whom we could get to join Wemby. We don't want a pouting faggot who is going to force his way out.
Any top 10 players you can think of who are going to be available soon, and at the latest 3 years from now?
Curry i cannot see ever being anything other then a Golden Phaggot and surely his ref aided ass has got to begin slowly declining. Then again, he looks like he takes Lebron level steroids and also purportedly hooked up with Brady and got on his diet.

Heavenly if we can land another GNob or Parker and develop thru the draft.

[exstatic]

Luka would indeed be a score, Xs 100 if he could be gotten as an unrestricted FA to be a Spurs in 26/27. But of course Cuban sure as H isn't going to let him walk. He'll be traded in 25-26 if the situation in Dallas blows. Problem most likely for Spurs is we won't have or want to trade a bunch of good players away to get Luka.

Trying to think of other bona fide legit top 10 players whom we could get to join Wemby. We don't want a pouting faggot who is going to force his way out.
Any top 10 players you can think of who are going to be available soon, and at the latest 3 years from now?
Curry i cannot see ever being anything other then a Golden Phaggot and surely his ref aided ass has got to begin slowly declining. Then again, he looks like he takes Lebron level steroids and also purportedly hooked up with Brady and got on his diet.

Heavenly if we can land another GNob or Parker and develop thru the draft.

He’ll be traded next summer if the situation in Dallas blows. He’ll force the issue.

[ambchang]

Nothing wrong with Payne wanting to be with a contender than a team that just won 19 games.

[JPB]

Nothing wrong with Payne wanting to be with a contender than a team that just won 19 games.

Yeah but they traded him for a reason.

And no, I won't do the "Payne in the ass" joke.

[MultiTroll]

Nothing wrong with Payne wanting to be with a contender than a team that just won 19 games.
Then he can man the fuck up and play extremely well and then go where he wants. He is in a contract year.

To pine for being a Sun while currently on Spurs is weak.

All the Suns are pu$$ies so why should Payne be any different.


Suns have been the Spurs’ bitch for 30+ years now.

[MultiTroll]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/95/f2/dc/95f2dcf5f17c59125547cc391a15f48e.jpghttps://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.hjwwTZPfxzo6EgYL3aRC8QHaE4?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

[MultiTroll]

I do think Payne played well vs the Bucks in Games 5,6 in what was the Sons best chance for a Chip.
Sons were married to giving Chrissy Paul all the playing time tho and predictable.....fail.

[Robz4000]

Welp, they waived Payne.

[kobyz]

Zagars

https://youtu.be/OAQyCSF0js0?si=yh_iZva8tQsAfXI1

[Rocalcio]

Zagars

https://youtu.be/OAQyCSF0js0?si=yh_iZva8tQsAfXI1

He's supposed to go tu Turkey.

[TrainOfThought5]

And we STILL need a Point Guard.

[rascal]

And we STILL need a Point Guard.

Just lose enough games this year and draft a top PG is the best case scenario for the future. One more tough year to get that young all star PG.

[heyheymymy]

I think Wembanyama will hub the offense more than we'd expect.

Maybe not at first but once assimilated Victor could run a quarterback role

Plus him corralling offensive rebounds catching the defense broken down and kickouts to wide open threes second chance opportunities plus passing out of drawn doubles

His international stats are pretty low 2.4 ast in 34 games 2023 LNB. Bet he can get that up with Pops schemes.

[sfernald]

I think Wembanyama will hub the offense more than we'd expect.

Maybe not at first but once assimilated Victor could run a quarterback role

Plus him corralling offensive rebounds catching the defense broken down and kickouts to wide open threes second chance opportunities plus passing out of drawn doubles

His international stats are pretty low 2.4 ast in 34 games 2023 LNB. Bet he can get that up with Pops schemes.

Yep, I agree. Treat him like Jokic right now and run the offense through him. The more exposed he is, the faster it will come to him. He is ready. He is our #1.

[heyheymymy]

I guess I just wonder if you had enough unconventional distribution could you get away with just seeing Tre Jones as PG with maybe Graham, Branham, and Wesley also spending mins at PG regardless of primary ballhandler duties in that lineup

Sochan explained in the interview he expects his playmaking role increase, not necessarily from the PG slot

To a much lesser degree you got bobo esque passing from Mamu and Sidy Cissoko.

And the aforementioned Wembanyama hub potentially something that may get tinkered with by the coaching staff.

[heyheymymy]

Look at how that works for Jokic

Reducing his wear and tear, but still scoring and winning games. Joker is a really gifted passer though and you gotta be for that to work

[spurraider21]

works for jokic because he is strong enough to drive into contact and still finish. he can take the direct path to the basket through a guy rather than having to take wide, sweeping steps to get by somebody. hes a freakin bear who weighs nearly 300 pounds

rookie/skinny anthony davis is probably a closer analog for what to expect from rookie wemby than prime jokic.

[MultiTroll]

Do you think Pop will be open to replacing Trey in the starting lineup sooner then 2027?

[wildbill2u]

Spurs are gonna put the ball in Tre's hands and see what happens. They will not rush into some deal because fans panic. I've never been totally sold on Jones, but the little guy keeps on keeping on by improving his ga me/skill components so he gets a pass to start the season to see what he can do in the Wemby era.

[heyheymymy]

works for jokic because he is strong enough to drive into contact and still finish. he can take the direct path to the basket through a guy rather than having to take wide, sweeping steps to get by somebody. hes a freakin bear who weighs nearly 300 pounds

rookie/skinny anthony davis is probably a closer analog for what to expect from rookie wemby than prime jokic.

That's a great point. It is more his agility for his size yet still with the finesse of finishing touch that keeps the defense honest which opens up the catch 22 of pass or drive.

Guess that is a more unique situation that might not be as easily emulated.

I don't really want Vic assuming the wear and tear of driving enough (or necessarily think it's in his skillset at this point unless he can abuse with his height/length) to establish the threat in order to open up passing lanes so my example wasn't the best there, good call.

[heyheymymy]

Wembanyama doesn't really have the elite physique/passing attributes of joker forcing defenders to honor it thus pulling guys off assignments where jokers gifted passing activates or you don't sag off and give him a red carpet to the rim.

[exstatic]

Wembanyama doesn't really have the elite physique/passing attributes of joker forcing defenders to honor it thus pulling guys off assignments where jokers gifted passing activates or you don't sag off and give him a red carpet to the rim.

TBH, no one knew that Jokic had that level of passing when he entered the league. If it was even suspected, he would have gone in the lottery, not at#41.

Oh, and LOL @ Joker having elite physical attributes. He’s improved, but is still a doughboy.

[heyheymymy]

Honestly I don't know how jokic does it because he def is huge lol but damn is he deceptively nimble for his weight.

The passing too, joker is kinda an enigma

I will say I think it catches up with him sooner rather than later especially with Silver's new star criteria in his updated star resting policy set to start this season.

Health has always been a bane of these current nuggets and it's amazing the stars aligned for that ring

[heyheymymy]

Maybe not elite physique in terms of BMI but elite in terms of gameplan nightmare

Joker is hard tape. He's a handful matchup. His body is a big part of what makes him hard to contain and a crucial focus of defenses

[The Truth #6]

He's big and durable which is great for setting picks. Wemby I'm a little more worried about in that scenario with his knees being high and thin, so to speak.

[Titi Parisien]

https://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yqcqsvww

[exstatic]

https://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yqcqsvww

Your link just goes to the front page of the ESPNTM.

[Mr. Body]

Cam Payne still on the market, despite pundits swearing he'd find tons of interest. Same as how they swore there'd be huge interest in Tyty Washington after he was waived.

[exstatic]

Cam Payne still on the market, despite pundits swearing he'd find tons of interest. Same as how they swore there'd be huge interest in Tyty Washington after he was waived.

I think there might have been mild trade interest,but that’s different than FA interest. There might be offers at the min level that he and his agent aren’t prepared to accept yet.

Personally, I’m not a huge Cam Payne fan. He’s got way too much entitlement for a backup guy. Cam, nobody, except maybe your Mom, cares if you’re upset being traded.

[CGD]

Cam Payne still on the market, despite pundits swearing he'd find tons of interest. Same as how they swore there'd be huge interest in Tyty Washington after he was waived.

I suspect he burned a lot of bridges earlier in his career with his attitude issues. He seems to have righted the ship, but memories are long.

I’ve also long wondered if being cut from teams like the Spurs or Miami serves as a negative inference on the player. It’s different than being cut from Charlotte or Washington.

[Mr. Body]

I suspect he burned a lot of bridges earlier in his career with his attitude issues. He seems to have righted the ship, but memories are long.

I’ve also long wondered if being cut from teams like the Spurs or Miami serves as a negative inference on the player. It’s different than being cut from Charlotte or Washington.

Possibly, although I don't think getting cut by the Spurs means anything here. Everyone expected he had no role with the young team.

He's an undersized point guard who might be good as a backup, and Minnesota has some apparent interest, but a lot of teams are full right now. He's not someone you rearrange your roster for at this point. I can see him, if not with the Wolves, signing on a team with injuries later on.

[wildbill2u]

Marginal players find their levels. Sometimes they drop below the line on the margins and never find their way back. He's facing hot young prospects coming out every year who will work for less and may have higher potential upside to find.

[exstatic]

Marginal players find their levels. Sometimes they drop below the line on the margins and never find their way back. He's facing hot young prospects coming out every year who will work for less and may have higher potential upside to find.

I'd say at this point, the only thing he has going for him is that he did play well in the 2021 playoffs all the way to, and including the Finals. Teams are always looking for playoff vets for their bench.

[KobesAchilles]

Monthly reminder that Tre Jones isn’t starter material and is a bottom 5 starting PG. Will keep the board in the loop next month when we start our preseason games where he ranks. I just hope he stays in the top 30 by years end tbh.

[TrainOfThought5]

Bumping this thread because Primo has served his time and will only be missing 4 games. He’s been in the gym practicing quietly getting better and he’d currently be the second best PG on the roster.

[Mr. Body]

Will the Spurs finagle dropping Toronto pick protection AND bring back Primo? Will there be two dicks on the roster?

[rascal]

Spurs aren't interested in winning a lot of games this year. They are playing for another top five to ten draft pick.
Won't be as bad of a tank as last year but a year of deciding who they will keep on the team moving forward and a first year of cautious development with managed minutes for Wemby.

Did little to improve the roster for this year outside of getting lucky with Wemby.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs aren't interested in winning a lot of games this year. They are playing for another top five to ten draft pick.
Won't be as bad of a tank as last year but a year of deciding who they will keep on the team moving forward and a first year of cautious development with managed minutes for Wemby.

Did little to improve the roster for this year outside of getting lucky with Wemby.

The Spurs are gonna win as many games as they can this year. Lol, you guys

[John B]

Spurs aren't interested in winning a lot of games this year. They are playing for another top five to ten draft pick.
Won't be as bad of a tank as last year but a year of deciding who they will keep on the team moving forward and a first year of cautious development with managed minutes for Wemby.

Did little to improve the roster for this year outside of getting lucky with Wemby.

I think this follows the reason to get Primo back and see what game he has developed, let him prove himself. Another year developing while getting Wemby NBA strong.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs are gonna win as many games as they can this year. Lol, you guys

That would be cool but nothing in the off-season or their comments suggest a push to win as many games as possible.

[exstatic]

That would be cool but nothing in the off-season or their comments suggest a push to win as many games as possible.

The caveat being "with this roster". They won't hold guys out or pull the defenders in the last half of the 4th Q like last year.

[BacktoBasics]

I think this follows the reason to get Primo back and see what game he has developed, let him prove himself. Another year developing while getting Wemby NBA strong.

I think this would be problematic considering they hired that lady back or were forced to hire her back if that’s what she negotiated.

Regardless it’s not a good look to cut a guy because of something “horrible and beyond a suspension” only to bring the assaulter back in proximity of the so called victim.

[The Truth #6]

The caveat being "with this roster". They won't hold guys out or pull the defenders in the last half of the 4th Q like last year.

I agree they won't try to lose as many games as humanly possible. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. And I agree with your qualification "with this roster" but my interpretation is different. By sticking with this roster it is a concession they aren't trying to win as many games as possible. They are operating in a gray area, which makes sense, as they want to assess their current roster. Next season they are likely to truly try to win as a goal. So passively falling into the lottery this year is well within the realistic outcomes.

[Mr. Body]

That would be cool but nothing in the off-season or their comments suggest a push to win as many games as possible.

Like every fucking thing they did this summer was predicated on two things: 1) growing into the team they need to become around Wemby, 2) win and be competitive.

I think y'all got some brain damage.

[Mr. Body]

I agree they won't try to lose as many games as humanly possible. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. And I agree with your qualification "with this roster" but my interpretation is different. By sticking with this roster it is a concession they aren't trying to win as many games as possible. They are operating in a gray area, which makes sense, as they want to assess their current roster. Next season they are likely to truly try to win as a goal. So passively falling into the lottery this year is well within the realistic outcomes.

At some point you guys need to actually list moves you think qualify for "make a push for winning games" that was available and made sense this summer. Like, just one move. One single move that was real, and actual, and would have moved the needle sensibly to win games this year. Sign Fred Van Vleet to $50 million dollars? Dillon Brooks? Please, for fuck's sake, don't say that hillbilly in Los Angeles.

[KobesAchilles]

So we are getting Jrue?

[ismael-robert]

That hillbilly in los angeles

[ismael-robert]

I'm not so sure she does still work for spurs after reviewing her professional pages

[The Truth #6]

Like every fucking thing they did this summer was predicated on two things: 1) growing into the team they need to become around Wemby, 2) win and be competitive.

I think y'all got some brain damage.

What y'all are you talking about? So weird. Anyway. Your first point is about growing. Your second point is win and be competitive. The first point I agree with because that's what they have been signalling but it's contradictory to acknowledge the team is growing and then to expect them to win a lot of games. And you're accusing others of brain damage?

Or is your argument about effort and not results? I'm curious how many games think they will win.

[The Truth #6]

At some point you guys need to actually list moves you think qualify for "make a push for winning games" that was available and made sense this summer. Like, just one move. One single move that was real, and actual, and would have moved the needle sensibly to win games this year. Sign Fred Van Vleet to $50 million dollars? Dillon Brooks? Please, for fuck's sake, don't say that hillbilly in Los Angeles.

According to you the team doesn't need to make any changes to win now. Are you changing your argument?

But you think a team of young promising players with a bounty of picks couldn't make a move if they wanted to?

They want to go slow and not rush the process, without caring how much they win or lose this year. That's why they aren't making moves.

I think you think the team is better than they are.

[Mr. Body]

According to you the team doesn't need to make any changes to win now. Are you changing your argument?

But you think a team of young promising players with a bounty of picks couldn't make a move if they wanted to?

They want to go slow and not rush the process, without caring how much they win or lose this year. That's why they aren't making moves.

I think you think the team is better than they are.

Tell me what the team should have done. It's easy to be a whiny baby claiming the team could have made good changes to 'win now.' What are they? Stop running your mouth. Give me actual moves that make sense. Do it.

[spurraider21]

Tell me what the team should have done. It's easy to be a whiny baby claiming the team could have made good changes to 'win now.' What are they? Stop running your mouth. Give me actual moves that make sense. Do it.
do you think the spurs had the best offseason they possibly could have?

[MultiTroll]

I'm not so sure she does still work for spurs after reviewing her professional pages
Tried looking too.
All Google comes up with is Former Spurs Psy.

[rascal]

do you think the spurs had the best offseason they possibly could have?

Only a Homer will believe that.

[Mr. Body]

do you think the spurs had the best offseason they possibly could have?

Lol, we're not talking 'perfection' or whatever. You're moving the goalposts. Can you guys for once give ONE SINGLE IDEA about a move YOU think should have been made? Like, ONE IDEA? A single one.

They don't even have to be good ones. Any ones at all. Just give me: "We should have traded for Chris Paul" or "A first round draft pick for Tyus Jones."

ANYTHING.

[The Truth #6]

Tell me what the team should have done. It's easy to be a whiny baby claiming the team could have made good changes to 'win now.' What are they? Stop running your mouth. Give me actual moves that make sense. Do it.

I'm not arguing the team should have made moves, so there's no incentive for me to concoct trades I'm not clamoring for. I'm saying I don't expect them to win a lot of games like you seem to be saying. So how many games do you think the current team will win?

[spurraider21]

Lol, we're not talking 'perfection' or whatever. You're moving the goalposts. Can you guys for once give ONE SINGLE IDEA about a move YOU think should have been made? Like, ONE IDEA? A single one.

They don't even have to be good ones. Any ones at all. Just give me: "We should have traded for Chris Paul" or "A first round draft pick for Tyus Jones."

ANYTHING.
Unless you can come up with one, that means you think they operated perfectly

[Mr. Body]

Unless you can come up with one, that means you think they operated perfectly

Lol, bruh, I'm the one who's fine with the offseason. It's you and rascal and other dolts who keep freaking out they didn't "do enough to win this year," yet fail to explain what moves those are.

[Dejounte]

People who already had a low opinion of the team’s talent will continue to have low opinion about the team and the team’s future. This should be no surprise to anyone. Unless the team had done moves that were out of character, they were never going to be pleased.

The Spurs value continuity not only because they because it’s safer to do than the alternative of being locked into a position with little flexibility, but because they believe that with time, it yields better results. There is also no reason to believe that because a team has chosen continuity, that they will not be a better team OR that all that will be expected is incremental growth. Things change fast in the NBA, and unexpected things happen.

[spurraider21]

Lol, bruh, I'm the one who's fine with the offseason. It's you and rascal and other dolts who keep freaking out they didn't "do enough to win this year," yet fail to explain what moves those are.
Crazy that you can’t come up with a single thing they could have done better :lol

[JPB]

Unless you can come up with one, that means you think they operated perfectly

No NBA team ever operates perfectly. You eventually do what you can, giving the context, circumstances, concurrence and your agenda. And the best moves are the ones you don't make. you don't want to be HOU giving riciculous contracts to Brooks or VanFleet. that's not the spurs, specially with you young guys on cheap contracts they wanna evaluate more and that could do the job for much less, allowing you to sign a second star and elite role players.

There's no real impactful move SA could have done that would have made real sense. Sign Lopez? He was always staying in MIL. And offer sheet to Reaves? LA was always matching.

[Mr. Body]

Crazy that you can’t come up with a single thing they could have done better :lol

Are you brain damaged? LMAO what the fuck man. I truly think you have brains that are falling out of your ears. You don't even have the vaguest notion of what we're talking about here. You're like a drooling moron.

[spurraider21]

Are you brain damaged? LMAO what the fuck man. I truly think you have brains that are falling out of your ears. You don't even have the vaguest notion of what we're talking about here. You're like a drooling moron.
Oh. Ok.

I’ll clarify.

you put the burden on somebody to name a specific move the spurs could have made to improve the offseason. As though absent that specific move, they’d have no point.

it’s a bad argument. Because i can flip it to you the way i did

[Mr. Body]

Oh. Ok.

I’ll clarify.

you put the burden on somebody to name a specific move the spurs could have made to improve the offseason. As though absent that specific move, they’d have no point.

it’s a bad argument. Because i can flip it to you the way i did

:lol

Bruh. I said I'm okay with the offseason. Therefore, like, I'm totally fine with the moves made. Why the fuck would I be on the clock to give you examples of good moves when they've already been made?

And then you say they didn't do enough. So... what the fuck are your brililant ideas? It's actually incumbent on YOU to come up with what you actually think would have been the right things to do.

And if I have to say something, the weird shit with the SRPs this draft still confuses me and I might not have picked Sissoko. But I trust what they did and think he has a lot of potential.

[The Truth #6]

Yeah, I don't think spurraider21 is expecting perfection. He's referencing the black or white comment to me. Mr. Body is who predicted a vastly improved team and hasn't provided details or numbers, yet considers everyone else to be a moron.

Here's what I expect:

The team will win somewhere between 29 and 34 games.

Pop probably won't play VW more than 65 games.

They're going in with low expectations and not trying to push VW too hard.

It's all about player evaluation, specifically of Devin and keldon to see who they want to build around in the coming years.

And after that then trades will likely happen before all the draft picks start coming due.

To me, that's reasonable.

[exstatic]

Yeah, I don't think spurraider21 is expecting perfection. He's referencing the black or white comment to me. Mr. Body is who predicted a vastly improved team and hasn't provided details or numbers, yet considers everyone else to be a moron.

Here's what I expect:

The team will win somewhere between 29 and 34 games.

Pop probably won't play VW more than 65 games.

They're going in with low expectations and not trying to push VW too hard.

It's all about player evaluation, specifically of Devin and keldon to see who they want to build around in the coming years.

And after that then trades will likely happen before all the draft picks start coming due.

To me, that's reasonable.

They could have done that last year. Sochan went on a 7 game tear in January, averaging 18/6/3, shooting 11/21 on 3s. For his trouble he got shut down for the rest of the month, played a few games early in Feb so he would be eligible for the rookie sophomore game, played a few more n February, 6 in March, and zero in April.

[rascal]

They could have done that last year. Sochan went on a 7 game tear in January, averaging 18/6/3, shooting 11/21 on 3s. For his trouble he got shut down for the rest of the month, played a few games early in Feb so he would be eligible for the rookie sophomore game, played a few more n February, 6 in March, and zero in April.

The Spurs only won two games in January, one against the tanking Pistons and another to the Nets. So Sochan's 7 game stretch did little to make the team win.

Spurs picked up several wins against other tanking teams. The last week of the season they picked up two against Portland and Dallas.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

1716493343301997006

[Mr. Body]

1716493343301997006

Teams will need at least one pass against Wemby to figure out how to guard the team, and it may still be hard. If this is the real defense - at least among the starters - their floor goes up considerably. It's a small sample size and most of the games were against incomplete teams (and preseason) but the defense looked excellent.

[spurraider21]

part of the problem of tracking most common lineups is how many games everybody missed. keldon only played 2/5 games, sochan played 3/5, etc

and even then, 24 minutes is quite a small sample

oddly, it was split among the worst and best opponents we've had (rockets with FVV/Green/Brooks out, and Warriors with everyone heathy playing). but sochan holding up admirably against the warriors backcourt is extremely encouraging. he was able to do that in spots last year, but to do it as his primary defensive task is very different

[RC_Drunkford]

1716493343301997006

sheesh. The problem will be when some of them sit. I think our bench is decent, but will probably be a net negative most of the time

[Mugen]

sheesh. The problem will be when some of them sit. I think our bench is decent, but will probably be a net negative most of the time

As long as the old man isn't doing full on hockey subs, they should be fine staggering starters mins with bench guys. Will take a good amount of games to find the right combo but right now I'm thinking Tre should a lot of time with DV/Wemby and Malaki should be paired up with Keldon/Sochan a lot.

[RC_Drunkford]

As long as the old man isn't doing full on hockey subs, they should be fine staggering starters mins with bench guys. Will take a good amount of games to find the right combo but right now I'm thinking Tre should a lot of time with DV/Wemby and Malaki should be paired up with Keldon/Sochan a lot.

I agree, but knowing Pop we will definitely see an all bench line up out there until he figures out who he has to stagger with the bench unit

[couchman]

Great new video from JxmyHighroller includes some break down on how the PG position has evolved in the modern NBA, and it shows why the Spurs have been right to try to convert larger playmakers into Point Guards rather than draft prototypical ones who resemble CP3 or whatever traditional archetype.

The video (https://youtu.be/XfqTziAl3-k?si=9ejxvsteykXn1egh)

Key takeaways:
The avg PG is bigger than ever at 6’3” because modern defense can’t hide a smaller guy from mismatches.
Touches for PGs have gone down dramatically as modern offenses tend to put the ball in the hands of their best player a lot more instead of having the designated PG do that.

That doesn’t mean that you don’t need a PG. Just that their role has changed.
That also means more options for how to solve for that position.

This also supports how the Spurs have approached the position ever since drafting DJM.
They want bigger playmakers and THEN they worry about teaching them the PG skills.
See DJM, Primo, Derrick White, Blake Wesley, Sochan, and even Branham got some run at PG last year.

I’ve said that the Spurs will solve the PG position in the next 12 months, but don’t expect it to look like an archetypical PG.
It might even be Sochan as the long term answer.

[spurraider21]

Great new video from JxmyHighroller breaks down how the PG position has evolved in the modern NBA, and it shows why the Spurs have been right to try to convert larger playmakers into Point Guards rather than draft prototypical ones who resemble CP3 or whatever traditional archetype.

The video (https://youtu.be/XfqTziAl3-k?si=9ejxvsteykXn1egh)

Key takeaways:
The avg PG is bigger than ever at 6’3” because modern defense can’t hide a smaller guy from mismatches.
Touches for PGs have gone down dramatically as modern offenses tend to put the ball in the hands of their best player a lot more instead of having the designated PG do that.

That doesn’t mean that you don’t need a PG. Just that their role has changed.
That also means more options for how to solve for that position.

This also supports how the Spurs have approached the position ever since drafting DJM.
They want bigger playmakers and THEN they worry about teaching them the PG skills.
See DJM, Primo, Derrick White, Blake Wesley, Sochan, and even Branham got some tun at PG last year.

I’ve said that the Spurs will solve the PG position in the next 12 months, but don’t expect it to look like an archetypical PG.
It might even be Sochan as the long term answer.
they gave lonnie some of those duties as well

[RC_Drunkford]

The positionless basketball approach might pan out to be another revolutionary move by Pop that then gets copied by the entire league

[TD 21]

Seriously? The term isn't new at this point and it's been tried by a myriad of teams.

I can't believe how many think this is part of some grand plan and not just an interim one until they draft or trade for lead ball handler X. I do expect said player to have good positional size and be as comfortable off ball as on though.

[Dejounte]

The positionless basketball approach might pan out to be another revolutionary move by Pop that then gets copied by the entire league

It’s gonna be fun watching tallball and basically watch these short guards be eliminated from existence

[scott]

part of the problem of tracking most common lineups is how many games everybody missed. keldon only played 2/5 games, sochan played 3/5, etc

and even then, 24 minutes is quite a small sample


This is a great point. To give some context, the most used 5-man lineup in the entire league last year was Fox-Sabonis-Huerter-Murray-Barnes at 900 minutes over 63 games. From there there is a big drop off to a Hawks lineup#2 at 738 minutes over 44 games and a Nuggets line up at 701 minutes over 41 games. Then another big drop off to a bunch of lineups in the high 500s.

The Spurs most heavily used lineup last year (Jones-Dev-Keldon-Soch-Jak) was only 189 minutes over 18 games!

It will be interesting to track lineups and see what emerges after what we assume will be our #1 lineup of Soch-Dev-KJ-Wemby-Collins. If those 5 can put up 500 minutes together this year that would be awesome.

[scott]

It’s gonna be fun watching tallball and basically watch these short guards be eliminated from existence

I wonder if we’ll see some Sochan-Dev-Wemby-Collins-Bassey lineups at some point. That would be fun.

[Atl Spur]

I wonder if we’ll see some Sochan-Dev-Wemby-Collins-Bassey lineups at some point. That would be fun.

That might be nasty!

[tim_duncan_fan]

Hurray for tall ball.

Those small ball lineups, Forbes, late-career Mills, etc were soul-crushing

[couchman]

"Tall ball" concepts are probably not the initial reason for this startling lineup.
Sochan doesn't give us a mismatch in the post because he doesn't have a developed post game at the moment.

Despite that, there are benefits to the lineup, and also problems that it solves.

I think the main reason Pop chose this lineup for now is that Wemby has shown that he can do very well on offense when he gets to play on the weakside with 3 shooters on the strong side. This is an oversimplification, but the idea remains true that shooters around Wemby gives him space to stretch out and use his length on offense more effectively.

That means we can't start two non shooters in Tre (PG) and Sochan (SF). Keldon has to start to get enough shooting around Wemby.
I don't think starting Sochan ahead of Keldon was ever a real option.

But if Sochan plays off the bench it threatens to slow his development and also reduces his chances of building chemistry with Wemby.
Those two have shown some chemistry already that we should build on.
Sochan is also one of our top talents on the team that we need to develop.
Developing Tre is less important because he is already close to his ceiling.

The tall ball lineup also has benefits on defense.
Sochan rebounded BETTER as a PG in the preseason than he did as a forward. It is a very small sample size but that stood out to me.
His size and switchability also left few mismatches on the court defensively.
I'm excited to see how this plays out in the real season.

[Seventyniner]

"Tall ball" concepts are probably not the initial reason for this startling lineup.
Sochan doesn't give us a mismatch in the post because he doesn't have a developed post game at the moment.

Despite that, there are benefits to the lineup, and also problems that it solves.

I think the main reason Pop chose this lineup for now is that Wemby has shown that he can do very well on offense when he gets to play on the weakside with 3 shooters on the strong side. This is an oversimplification, but the idea remains true that shooters around Wemby gives him space to stretch out and use his length on offense more effectively.

That means we can't start two non shooters in Tre (PG) and Sochan (SF). Keldon has to start to get enough shooting around Wemby.
I don't think starting Sochan ahead of Keldon was ever a real option.

But if Sochan plays off the bench it threatens to slow his development and also reduces his chances of building chemistry with Wemby.
Those two have shown some chemistry already that we should build on.
Sochan is also one of our top talents on the team that we need to develop.
Developing Tre is less important because he is already close to his ceiling.

The tall ball lineup also has benefits on defense.
Sochan rebounded BETTER as a PG in the preseason than he did as a forward. It is a very small sample size but that stood out to me.
His size and switchability also left few mismatches on the court defensively.
I'm excited to see how this plays out in the real season.

I like the rebounding angle here. I have heard several commentators in the preseason talking about how the fact that teams take a lot of threes means rebounds go farther from the basket than otherwise and so having guards that are good at rebounding is an advantage. That means having tall guards could be even more important now than ever before. The Darius Garlands of the world shouldn't be getting many boards over Sochan.

It's easy to say that Wemby should average big rebounding numbers because he's so tall, but his technique needs a lot of work, many rebounds off of long shots won't be near him, and he isn't going to outmuscle very many opposing bigs.

[FutureMan]

I’m not against the tall lineup at all. I think a better point guard is still needed for nights that certain players are resting and/or injured. Graham, Wesley, and picks for Tyus Jones makes me feel way more comfortable and to me it gives us the depth the team will need to make a run at the playoffs. Plus they would be able to convert Barlow.

At this point though the Spurs have the luxury of waiting a couple months before making a trade. Let’s just see how it goes.

[sfernald]

This all sounds great in theory until you watch the games and realize his teammates are barely able to get Wemby into his sets and no one apparently knows how to throw a lob pass to seven foot five pterodactyl!

[Mr. Body]

This all sounds great in theory until you watch the games and realize his teammates are barely able to get Wemby into his sets and no one apparently knows how to throw a lob pass to seven foot five pterodactyl!

Too bad they'll never figure out how to do this. We're totally screwed.

[sfernald]

Too bad they'll never figure out how to do this. We're totally screwed.

Well, I’m positive Wesley will figure it out just as soon as he figures out how to make a layup!

[rjv]

The positionless basketball approach might pan out to be another revolutionary move by Pop that then gets copied by the entire league

i was just talking to someone about this the other day. that Pop might once again develop yet another scheme or philosophy, meaning that he will have been the only coach to have made so many changes and adaptations over a span of three decades. if this happens, he certainly places himself on the top of any GOAT conversations.

[CorrectCrusader]

This all sounds great in theory until you watch the games and realize his teammates are barely able to get Wemby into his sets and no one apparently knows how to throw a lob pass to seven foot five pterodactyl!
This will come with time.

[TD 21]

i was just talking to someone about this the other day. that Pop might once again develop yet another scheme or philosophy, meaning that he will have been the only coach to have made so many changes and adaptations over a span of three decades. if this happens, he certainly places himself on the top of any GOAT conversations.

It didn't require ingenuity at each point to figure out the ideal way to play.

Pop was fortunate to have superstar and star players who were willing to allow the offense to continue to evolve depending on what stage they were at in their careers and what would be best for the team.

[ambchang]

i was just talking to someone about this the other day. that Pop might once again develop yet another scheme or philosophy, meaning that he will have been the only coach to have made so many changes and adaptations over a span of three decades. if this happens, he certainly places himself on the top of any GOAT conversations.

That’s one of the aspects that is often overlooked when ranking coaches. People put Phil Jackson high at the rankings because he won 11 rings but the reality is that he had clearly the best/most dominant player in the game along with another top five player in 9 of those 11 titles, and had the best frontcourt in the other two. He brought no lasting impact to the game because no team can replicate that type of lineups. Pop adapted and ushered in new and fresh ideas to the game which were copied by other teams because many teams can get the same ingredients to implement that style.

From using the baseline as a third defender in the two tower days to the beautiful game to hopefully the next dynastic era, pop put his stamp in how the game evolved. Like how Jack Ramsey encouraged fitness and stamina, red Auerbach used the fastbreak, how Riley first managed to use showtime but later had the Knicks rough and borderline illegal thugball, to how daly emphasized physical defense, these coaches out in something new. Even mike dantoni, as much as like to make fun of him, got SSOL and Rick adelman got the price ton offence (both had clear impact to pop offensive and defensive philosophies) brought more to the game than Phil Jackson.

[Mr. Body]

That’s one of the aspects that is often overlooked when ranking coaches. People put Phil Jackson high at the rankings because he won 11 rings but the reality is that he had clearly the best/most dominant player in the game along with another top five player in 9 of those 11 titles, and had the best frontcourt in the other two. He brought no lasting impact to the game because no team can replicate that type of lineups. Pop adapted and ushered in new and fresh ideas to the game which were copied by other teams because many teams can get the same ingredients to implement that style.

From using the baseline as a third defender in the two tower days to the beautiful game to hopefully the next dynastic era, pop put his stamp in how the game evolved. Like how Jack Ramsey encouraged fitness and stamina, red Auerbach used the fastbreak, how Riley first managed to use showtime but later had the Knicks rough and borderline illegal thugball, to how daly emphasized physical defense, these coaches out in something new. Even mike dantoni, as much as like to make fun of him, got SSOL and Rick adelman got the price ton offence (both had clear impact to pop offensive and defensive philosophies) brought more to the game than Phil Jackson.

Phil also used someone else's offensive system. He left teams as soon as their eras were over. What matters most to me is that he left no coaching legacy whatsoever. Pop has an extensive coaching tree. I think he had like a third of the coaches in the playoffs last year came from him. Phil has no one.

[Em-City]

The positionless basketball approach might pan out to be another revolutionary move by Pop that then gets copied by the entire league
Phoenix seem to be going down the "no point guard" path in a similar approach

[ismael-robert]

Reavers with the near double double outperforms Dlo

[itzsoweezee]

Luka was very effusive about Wemby today. How long until his contract is up? Two years?

[Obstructed_View]

This is a great point. To give some context, the most used 5-man lineup in the entire league last year was Fox-Sabonis-Huerter-Murray-Barnes at 900 minutes over 63 games. From there there is a big drop off to a Hawks lineup#2 at 738 minutes over 44 games and a Nuggets line up at 701 minutes over 41 games. Then another big drop off to a bunch of lineups in the high 500s.

The Spurs most heavily used lineup last year (Jones-Dev-Keldon-Soch-Jak) was only 189 minutes over 18 games!

It will be interesting to track lineups and see what emerges after what we assume will be our #1 lineup of Soch-Dev-KJ-Wemby-Collins. If those 5 can put up 500 minutes together this year that would be awesome.

It's hard to lose sixty games when your team has talent.

[Fizziksman]

Wemby will be initiating the offense by his second year

[Fizziksman]

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[Dejounte]

https://x.com/tom_orsborn/status/1717327386465783850?s=46

Pop using the term I coined tbh

[TrainOfThought5]

Where are the Idiotic Detractors that think that Jeremy Sochan and his 4 turnovers, and 3 offensive fouls is a PG?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Where are the Idiotic Detractors that think that Jeremy Sochan and his 4 turnovers, and 3 offensive fouls is a PG?


Standing on the sideline coaching the team.

[ismael-robert]

Graham would've been an upgrade

[DaDakota]

If/when the charges against KPJ are dropped, he is an excellent basketball player, just needs tough love from the org.

DD

[TrainOfThought5]

If/when the charges against KPJ are dropped, he is an excellent basketball player, just needs tough love from the org.

DD

That player is a Trojan horse of bullshit and fuckery if I’ve ever seen it.

[spurraider21]

If/when the charges against KPJ are dropped, he is an excellent basketball player, just needs tough love from the org.

DD
it already says your name to the left of your posts

[exstatic]

Where are the Idiotic Detractors that think that Jeremy Sochan and his 4 turnovers, and 3 offensive fouls is a PG?

Detractor is someone who doesn’t agree he’s a PG. The ones that think he is are supporters.

[exstatic]

If/when the charges against KPJ are dropped, he is an excellent basketball player, just needs tough love from the org.

DD

He’s an idiot. He was a top 10 talent that dropped to 30 because of character flags, and then proved everyone right by melting down when his locker got moved in Cleveland.

[KingKev]

Holy fuck Pop liver NEEDS to fail to not ruin another good thing.

[DaDakota]

True, but he is really young and sometimes young idiots mature.

Iverson, Wallace, Barkley, Kidd - all guys in trouble who turned out ok...the NBA is littered with em....Pop would work wonders IMHO, but I understand if you want to stay far away too.


DD

[jbspurs]

Graham would've been an upgrade He is still with the team right?

[Mr. Body]

This was a game where Graham could have helped with his pick-and-pop shooting.

[playbonner15]

This was a game where Graham could have helped with his pick-and-pop shooting.

He's suspended

https://theathletic.com/4743619/2023/08/02/spurs-devonte-graham-suspended/

[ismael-robert]

He'll be back next game so excited for that but knowing pop he won't play

[Mr. Body]

He's suspended

https://theathletic.com/4743619/2023/08/02/spurs-devonte-graham-suspended/

Yes, I know.

[Obstructed_View]

https://x.com/tom_orsborn/status/1717327386465783850?s=46

Pop using the term I coined tbh
What term do you think you coined? :lmao

[BackHome]

He’s an idiot. He was a top 10 talent that dropped to 30 because of character flags, and then proved everyone right by melting down when his locker got moved in Cleveland.

Yep, you can't fix Stupid..

[Fusternino]

Could either Fultz or CoJo be cheap next offseason?

[Chinook]

Through these four games, The Wemby and Sochan pairing is -28.6 points per 100 while Wemby and Jones are +34. Wemby and Collins are -19.3, while Wemby and Bassey are +4.1. There's still noise in the data as well as hope that time will make those pairings improve. But sample size is also dependent on how extreme the results are. You may not need a huge sample if the difference is 60 points per 100.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Through these four games, The Wemby and Sochan pairing is -28.6 points per 100 while Wemby and Jones are +34. Wemby and Collins are -19.3, while Wemby and Bassey are +4.1. There's still noise in the data as well as hope that time will make those pairings improve. But sample size is also dependent on how extreme the results are. You may not need a huge sample if the difference is 60 points per 100.

Exactly... That's like putting me as PG and having ppl say "let's give it time"... Sometimes things are glaringly obvious...that's like trying to force Danny Green to be a PG and thinking you need an entire season to see why that's a horrible idea

[tesseractive]

Through these four games, The Wemby and Sochan pairing is -28.6 points per 100 while Wemby and Jones are +34. Wemby and Collins are -19.3, while Wemby and Bassey are +4.1. There's still noise in the data as well as hope that time will make those pairings improve. But sample size is also dependent on how extreme the results are. You may not need a huge sample if the difference is 60 points per 100.

That's fair, but two things: (1) Wemby is 19 and Sochan is 20 -- they may simply need some court time to build chemistry to learn to play together more effectively. (2) Unless I'm mistaken, the Wemby/Jones lineup has spent a lot more time playing against backups than Wemby/Sochan has. That makes a difference.

I'm not against moving Jones back into the starting lineup, but when you're dealing with kids and you're in a rebuilding year anyway, I think it's good to take things a little more slowly and give guys a chance to figure things out.

[Raven]

i have not seen jones set plays for wemby, i don't think it is a personnel problem.

[poopbox]

Through these four games, The Wemby and Sochan pairing is -28.6 points per 100 while Wemby and Jones are +34. Wemby and Collins are -19.3, while Wemby and Bassey are +4.1. There's still noise in the data as well as hope that time will make those pairings improve. But sample size is also dependent on how extreme the results are. You may not need a huge sample if the difference is 60 points per 100.

2 of their 4 games are against 2 of the top 5 two man tandems in the league when they are at their healthiest. I wouldn't read to much into those numbers. I also question how much Pop is actually trying to win. I feel like if you asked Pop if you could win 40 games with tre as the starter and not know if Wemby and Sochan can play together or know if Wemby and Sochan can play together but Tre is the backup point guard and you win 28 games...pretty sure Pop is taking the 28 games since in the long run that matters more. Real life isn't 2k and Pop isn't the type of coach doing everything he can to chase wins. Old and accomplished people like Pop always deal in "perspective".

You got a 20 year old playing hilariously out of position and you got a 19 year old learning how to play in the nba. It was always going to be a disaster to start with.

[JPB]

Wemby is better with Tre on the floor, that's eye popping. I mean spurs are better with Jones as PG, reason why he's finishing the games. Sochan is over dribbling, missing open teammates and not really creating anything. He's basically bringing the ball up the court. Bring him to back to his natural position, he may get a bit better at PG but will never be a reliable solution there.

[Mr. Body]

I love how according to Spurs Talk, Tre Jones was a disaster and the worst guard in the NBA and now according to Spurs Talk, Tre Jones is spectacular and the only way this team can work.

[The Truth #6]

I like how Tre is playing. He seems to have stepped things up, like I said in preseason.

I also still really like Jeremy and want to see him develop. Totally fine with some more time to see where it goes .

And then there's Graham who is forgotten but could be very helpful with his flamethrowing 3 point shooting. But might be the odd man out.

[Ocotillo]

I like how Tre is playing. He seems to have stepped things up, like I said in preseason.

I also still really like Jeremy and want to see him develop. Totally fine with some more time to see where it goes .

And then there's Graham who is forgotten but could be very helpful with his flamethrowing 3 point shooting. But might be the odd man out.

When is his supension over?

[Ocotillo]

When is his supension over? I saw it was two games, he has been available for the road trip.

[SpurSpike]

Was listening to The Lowe Post podcast and he said that when Victor Wembanyama and Tre Jones share the floor together the Spurs are +56 over 75 minutes! That's crazy!

[spurraider21]

I love how according to Spurs Talk, Tre Jones was a disaster and the worst guard in the NBA and now according to Spurs Talk, Tre Jones is spectacular and the only way this team can work.
Tre Jones is a fine backup tier PG who is currently our best option to start at PG

i hope that clarifies

Sochan played well yesterday

[Fizziksman]

Was listening to The Lowe Post podcast and he said that when Victor Wembanyama and Tre Jones share the floor together the Spurs are +56 over 75 minutes! That's crazy!

seriously Wemby's game will raise to whole other level once a competent starting point guard is on the Spurs

[couchman]

Every move now has to be with a Wemby championship team in mind.
The question we need to always ask is, can this player be a starter on a championship level team?

I love Tre but I don’t think that’s likely.
Sochan probably isn’t either but Pop wants to find out and give it time to see what’s up.
I expect we’ll draft a PG next year to add to our options

[BatManu20]

Every move now has to be with a Wemby championship team in mind.
The question we need to always ask is, can this player be a starter on a championship level team?

I love Tre but I don’t think that’s likely.
Sochan probably isn’t either but Pop wants to find out and give it time to see what’s up.
I expect we’ll draft a PG next year to add to our options


Spurs will almost certainly be drafting a PG next year. Problem is Wemby raises this team's floor too high to be selecting in the top-10, and I don't think we end up getting Toronto's top-6 protected pick cause they suck as is and will likely tank to keep it regardless, so I think we'll be stuck having to settle for a 2nd or 3rd-tier prospect in the teens (or even 20's, depending on how well Wemby continues to perform this season).

We also own Charlotte's Lottery-protected FRP via the Dejounte trade with Atlanta, but CHA is likely going to be trash this year too so that likely doesn't convey either sadly.

There's 3-4 PG's projected to go in next year's lottery right now. We'll know more once the CBB season plays out obviously, but that's what it's looking like at the moment.

I think packaging some of our draft capital + a player or two for PG might also be an option for us moving forward if that's the case. Not sure who, if any, teams would be willing to move their PG, but perhaps a team ready to go into rebuild mode. Who knows. Time will tell, but I do think we'll be drafting a PG in the 1st Round next year with our pick so long as it's not a huge reach.

[BatManu20]

The way too early PG rankings in the 2024 NBA Draft. Top-3 guys are currently projected to go in the lottery.


1. Isaiah Collier, USC - 6'4 205 lbs. - Best PG prospect in the draft. #1 rated player in the 2023 class. Pass-first PG with a knack at getting to the rim.

2. Stephon Castle, UCONN - 6'6 190 lbs. - PG/SG combo with great size and athleticism. Great defensive potential as well.

3. DJ Wagner, UK 6'3 180 lbs. - Son of former NBA player DeJuan Wagner. Score-first PG with good athleticism and explosive first step. Excels at scoring.

4. Tyrese Proctor, Duke - 6'5 175 lbs. - Tall, lanky Aussie who excels at passing the ball. Also a good 3-point shooter. Lacks explosive athleticism.

5. Elmarko Jackson, KU - 6'3 185 lbs. - Strong, bullish guard who excels at lowering his head and getting to the rim. Solid 3-point shooter too.

[SpursBills]

I take Nikola topic over every single one of those guys tbh. 27/6/10 today on 67/75/100 shooting in adriatic league play at 18 years old.


The way to early PG rankings in the 2024 NBA Draft. Top-3 guys are currently projected to go in the lottery.


1. Isaiah Collier, USC - 6'4 205 lbs. - Best PG prospect in the draft. #1 rated player in the 2023 class. Pass-first PG with a knack at getting to the rim.

2. Stephon Castle, UCONN - 6'6 190 lbs. - PG/SG combo with great size and athleticism. Great defensive potential as well.

3. DJ Wagner, UK 6'3 180 lbs. - Son of former NBA player DeJuan Wagner. Score-first PG with good athleticism and explosive first step. Excels at scoring.

4. Tyrese Proctor, Duke - 6'5 175 lbs. - Tall, lanky Aussie who excels at passing the ball. Also a good 3-point shooter. Lacks explosive athleticism.

5. Elmarko Jackson, KU - 6'3 185 lbs. - Strong, bullish guard who excels at lowering his head and getting to the rim. Solid 3-point shooter too.

[BatManu20]

I take Nikola topic over every single one of those guys tbh. 27/6/10 today on 67/75/100 shooting in adriatic league play at 18 years old.

Yea Topic's been trending on Twitter lately. He looks legit. If he puts his name in the 2024 Draft, he'll shake up these rankings. This could all change anyways. We'll see what this CBB season holds for us.

[jesterbobman]

There look like there'll be decent PG options in this draft - And I'd expect the Toronto pick to convey (tanking for 3 years is hard, if you're giving up a pick at 7 - 14 you probably want it to be this year rather than 2025 or 2026, and it'd be using up the career of Scottie Barnes, who they are super high on).

I'd expect the Spurs to look at PG with at least one of their pick and the Toronto pick - Either as pure PG options, or big combo guards who you can run alongside other wings.

I'd also think about looking into a trade to ensure that there is 48 minutes of competence at PG. I don't think there are realistic star trades available if we're focusing on the Spurs timeline (Halliburton, Maxey, Garland...) but giving up something like 2 second round picks and Doug McDermott for Tyus Jones at the deadline when the Wizards turn tank mode up would be a decent option (or just look to sign Tyus in free agency).

[couchman]

Thx for the info about PG prospects.
That really is a strong PG class!

Spurs could end up in the lottery and draw a top pick again! Or make the playoffs! Anything seems possible right now.
Even with 2nd or 3rd best options I trust Spurs Development to turn one of these guys into a winner.

[The Truth #6]

Both Jones brothers...bold!

[Davidicus]

All we need is Patty Mills waving his towel. Championship.

[rascal]

I take Nikola topic over every single one of those guys tbh. 27/6/10 today on 67/75/100 shooting in adriatic league play at 18 years old.

Watching some of his highlights, he's not playing against black players, very weak competition.

No interior defense on the teams he's playing, can just dribble right into a layup.

Why do people only want foreign players. there are great American prospects in this year's draft. I like Castle.

[Blizzardwizard]

Well hopefully Team Tre and Team Sochan can put their swords down and acknowledge their guys were both equally toilet today.

Chalk it up as a score draw and move on to the next one.

[dbestpro]

Watching some of his highlights, he's not playing against black players, very weak competition.

No interior defense on the teams he's playing, can just dribble right into a layup.

Why do people only want foreign players. there are great American prospects in this year's draft. I like Castle.

Wemby, Lucas, and Giannis said hello.

[SpursBills]

…is this a serious reply or are you just trolling?!?


Watching some of his highlights, he's not playing against black players, very weak competition.

No interior defense on the teams he's playing, can just dribble right into a layup.

Why do people only want foreign players. there are great American prospects in this year's draft. I like Castle.

[spurraider21]

Well hopefully Team Tre and Team Sochan can put their swords down and acknowledge their guys were both equally toilet today.

Chalk it up as a score draw and move on to the next one.
Therein lies the problem. Jones is a good backup tier pg

does us little good to have 2 of those

[rascal]

…is this a serious reply or are you just trolling?!?

There are good American prospects at pg in this year's draft.

[RC_Drunkford]

There are good American prospects at pg in this year's draft.

https://as2.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/02/78/00/29/1000_F_278002949_UHv7unHCwT4RjwEIi4BL2urWdiPcDtpX. jpg

[Atl Spur]

We will need to draft a competent ball handler ; no one on our team can withstand ball pressure. We fine for this season but next draft we shall see how the balls bounce.

[sfernald]

So what do you guys think of this trade?

My rational on our side, is that Ivey would be a perfect compliment to Wemby. Once he develops, he will probably be unstoppable driving to the basket. That's what we are really missing right now, a playmaker who can break down the defense. Like a Shai for example. Jaden has all the potential in the world to become an ALL-NBA player.

Now the reason I think Pistons might be willing to trade him, is he's spending much of his time right now sitting on the bench. They have other guards like Thompson, Sasser and Hayes (and Cade obviously) who are performing much better right now. They just don't really need him in their roster and I think with Monty the Pistons would really like to win a bit this year. Thus they could upgrade and bring in an actual starting SG/SF with Keldon. I think he'd be a good fit on their team. They want guys who can play gritty defense and he would add some scoring and offense that they desperately need. I think he's the sacrifice you make to try to balance your roster and get Wemby a decent playmaker on his schedule.

We take Joe Harris, a vet shooter who is doing shit there, a wasted 20 million and James Wiseman, who has not worked out for them and is sitting on the bench. We replace them with cheaper, better versions in Doug M. (cheaper and better shooter) and Bassey (better than wiseman and on super cheap long term contract).

We take a flyer on Wiseman and hope the third venue is the charm and he figures it out next to wemby this year. Joe probably just sits on the bench and backs up Osman, not the biggest deal. But we get our playmaker of the future, one with the potential to be one of the best guards in the league if things work out.

They don't have a 1st this year, so we throw in the Charlotte 2024 1st as well as sweetener to get them to give up on the potential of Ivey.

What do you guys think of this trade? I really like it for both teams and what they are looking to do this year and in the long term.

https://i.postimg.cc/C5pxw15J/Screenshot-2023-11-05-at-7-26-57-PM.png

[spurraider21]

Harris is washed. Wiseman is no longer a flier. He’s just bad.

so it’s keldon, Bassey, and a 1 for Ivey

prob not

[TD 21]

Despite Williams inexplicably slashing Ivey's role so far, it just feels too early for the Pistons to pull the plug on him. They were thrilled to get him and it's not like he's on the fast track to being a bust.

Besides, Thompson is a wing and Harris, Burks, Morris and Hayes are all on expiring contracts, so the guard-wing logjam will be sorted out sooner than later.

That said, the Spurs should definitely try Johnson (who makes sense for them) + draft capital (Raptors and Hornets 1sts?) for Ivey and Wiseman. Maybe pull in a third team (Wizards are thin at C and could offer Gallinari, who Spurs could waive again) to take the latter.

[onechance87]

its a must to get a pg who passes and shoots......Thats is whats holding this team back

[rascal]

Harris is washed. Wiseman is no longer a flier. He’s just bad.

so it’s keldon, Bassey, and a 1 for Ivey

prob not

Charlotte pick is crap, not likely to convey into a first round pick, Bassey is nothing special

So just Keldon for Ivey- good trade for the Spurs but no way Detroit does this trade. They like Ivey.

[JeffDuncan]

So what do you guys think of this trade?


I think that instead of posting to the forum you should speak to a physician about the mental difficulties you’re experiencing. No offense.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Watching some of his highlights, he's not playing against black players, very weak competition.

No interior defense on the teams he's playing, can just dribble right into a layup.

Why do people only want foreign players. there are great American prospects in this year's draft. I like Castle.
racist ass

[TheChillFactor]

The more i watch this team, the more i think eventually they will need to get a veteran point guard, and not one in the draft.

For those of us who lived through the early Tony years, that is like the last thing in the world i want to repeat. Tony came into a veteran team. Whoever we add will join a really young team.

We need the 2023-24 equivalent of the Rod Strickland acquistion in 1990, someone young-ish with some pop, but not another rookie.

[stephen jackson]

Ben Simmons we don’t need shooting we need everything else rebounding defense and passing

[exstatic]

Ben Simmons we don’t need shooting we need everything else rebounding defense and passing

No.