Call Your Ideal Off-Season

[Sugus]

Personally, I'm hoping the FO isn't putting much stock in the 25 FA class because I don't think many of those guys will end up actual FAs. Extensions will start to roll in this summer and that impressive FA class will quickly thin out to look a lot like this one (IMO). Extension rules (among other things) have essentially killed FA at this point.

Yeah, trades are the way to acquire big talent nowadays. But still I'd like to see them try out the FA class, especially Derrick if available. He'd be a great great pairing with Wemby, and he's entering his prime right now. Could be a bigger signing than most think.

In any case, I hope the Spurs remain active in all avenues instead of waiting for deadlines. We'll see what happens, but unlike this year, I'm not hoping for a tank next season at all. Wemby's made his wish clear enough for the FO to respect it. With talent like that, and that height/frame, you just can't afford to wait around.

[Chinook]

This again? All I did was make one of my patented sarcastic comments, which as usual you took overly seriously, threw a hissy fit, took a bunch of shots, pontificated and are now pretending I don't understand something that is basic when I was merely agreeing with another poster.

Me saying your argument doesn't make sense isn't "taking a shot". Me asking you support your assertions isn't either. You calling folks naive is closer to a shot than any thing I've said. But if you want to drop this part of the conversation, I'm not against it.


Says the guy telling me, who actually follows the league closely, to "look into Portis" without actually saying anything specific to counter what I said.

Yeah and they're still as shady as ever. Instead of your preconceived notion of why I don't like them, maybe you and others who have some issue with it should be asking yourself how I have some of the information I do instead of questioning virtually everything I say.

You "following the NBA closely" isn't some point we all take as a given. These comments I guess imply you have some special insight that means we should defer to you, but you've never demonstrated that. You're just another fan as far as I can tell. While I'm sure some Spurs fans follow the league less than you, you seem to put too much weight into how much you think others follow the NBA compared to you. Somehow, that has led to you rarely providing support for you takes because you dismiss disagreeing opinions as less informed or naive.

You can actually just Google Portis, watch his interviews and read his Wiki article to find out what kind of player he seems to be. It's hard to justify defaulting to believe he is "too black" without making the extreme icky assumption that him punching a dude somehow adds to his blackness.


Again, starting caliber is what I meant, so I'm "claiming" it despite your desire to make it about Young again.

No. The reason why you can't claim is because basically everyone this side of Bod wants the Spurs to bring in starting caliber players. We're debating what level of starting-caliber players the team should go for and at what cost. You can't meaningfully back into the "starting caliber" hole and maintain a disagreement. That position would be completely compatible with what I've said I hold, and you know you don't agree with that. Me specifically talking about "Young-esque" players is taking the argument you're making seriously and actually trying to discuss the merits of that level of commitment rather than trying to play word games.


Yeah, within' a perceived championship context. The notion that he'd be fine spending his twilight here is ludicrous for so many reasons.

Not every player spends their last years winning titles. The Warriors may not win another title with Curry, but I don't know how many people expect him to demand out. Durant has rings. What he seemed to realize is that he cares about his legacy more than championships. Durant has been chasing winning "his own ring" for the past few years. While there are situations where Durant would still be the best player on his team, the time and places are running out. So how can Kevin wrap up his story to rebuild the broken parts of his legacy? OKC might be able to fix it, though him joining the 1-seed would sour the home-coming somewhat. I don't know that the returning to the New York media to play second-fiddle to Brunson is all that appealing.

San Antonio is one of the rare locations where he would get a legacy boost no matter what. If he carries the Spurs to a title, he gets "his own ring". If Wemby carries him to a ring, he gets to be the David Robinson to Victor's Duncan. If they don't win anything, he gets to be a mentor on a team that wasn't seriously expecting to win a title anyway. That a team would get to slowly grow around him is arguably the best counter to the rising narrative of Durant going from team to team demanding changes to get his guys and than leave them in shambles after failing to capitalize on the roster he helped build.


Yeah, within' a perceived championship context. The notion that he'd be fine spending his twilight here is ludicrous for so many reasons.

Unlike the Spurs, the Knicks have to add salary to a Durant trade on top of Randle. Ishiba may be willing to miss out on massive savings and have no interest in letting his FO maintain flexibility. My guess is the Suns would want that ballast to be more worthwhile than Bogdanovic. I'm not sure the Knicks would want to eat into their defensive core by trading Hart or DiVencenzo though. Maybe a third team could be pursuaded to give up a better fit for Bogs and a pick, but then you're playing a balancing game between how many assets the Knicks are willing to part with to get Durant and how many assets the Suns need to have after paying the third team to make moving KD worthwhile.


Giddey, possibly Dort for salary/value and a portion of their unprecedented draft capital would be far better than Murray and ?

You seem to be conflating what OKC could offer if they aren't attached to conserving their roster with what they would offer practically. We don't know how much if at all they want Durant. I'm sure the Suns would love Dort. I'm not sure they'd love him over Murray, and Giddy's a contract needing an extension as much as he's a young player with potential at this point.

[jbspurs]

Draft Dillingham, draft a big body center "Edey" and maybe land KD.

[Mal]

I hope Cavaliers blow up, and Mitchell become available

[heyheymymy]

2025-2026 San Antonio Spurs


Starters:


Jones, Vassell, Edgecombe, Markkanen, Wemby


Bench:


Sheppard, Harper, Johnson, Sochan, Zollins


Third string:


Wesley, Champ, Mamu


Jones/Sheppard + Wesley
Vassell/Harper
Edgecombe/Johnson + Champ
Markkanen/Sochan + Mamu
Wemby/Zollins


Harper/Jones/Wesley
Vassell/Edgecombe/Sheppard
Sochan/Johnson/Champ
Markkanen/Ruzic/Mamu
Wemby/Zollins/Ivisic


SAS 2024 #4 = Reed Sheppard
TOR conveys 2025 #8 = Dylan Harper
ATL 2025 #9 = VJ Edgecombe
SAS 2025 #16 = Michael Ruzic
CHI 2RP #34 = Zvonimir Ivisic
CHI & CHA do not convey 2025


2025 Free Agent = Lauri Markkanen


Still have draft assets:


CHI 2026 FRP
(top 8 protected 26 & 27, then two 2RPs)


CHA now converted to 2026 2RP + 2027 2RP


ATL 2026 FRP SWAP
ATL 2027 FRP
BOS 2028 FRP SWAP
DAL 2030 FRP SWAP


+ all SAS natural FRPs and a shit ton of 2RPs

[rankingtear]

I hope Cavaliers blow up, and Mitchell become available

Looks like a Kemba/Kawhi situation already with him, counting the days before his knees just gives in.

[The Truth #6]

I think to get players to buy into being in San Antonio it will be a variety of types:

Rookies we draft. Complementary veterans looking for a contract. Foreign players less invested in typical American status.

Who I don't think will want to be into San Antonio: most American born stars. Players like Durant, Spida Mitchell...I just don't see it. They're either cancers or just want to get to a coastal dominant market.

So I'm not promoting going slow just to go slow, but I'd hate to give up all our assets to get a player who bails very quickly after making a bunch of demands.

Now if a star actually wants to come here, then sure explore that option completely. But the NBA is full of quick fix franchises in chaos now: Brooklyn, Phoenix, Lakers, Clippers. I don't know. They have built in advantages but it's a boom/bust cycle they are on, and I don't think SA can operate like that and expect to stay in SA.

I have no idea if Pop sees it that way or if the FO is just inherently cautious and risk adverse.

Just rambling but seems like we need to start winning the draft while finding complementary veterans to raise the floor so Wemby doesn't think we are tanking.

[MultiTroll]

Siakam.

While i was rooting for Indy to implode the Milwaukee owner and front office with their corrupt pick of Coq Rivers....

Would have welcomed Siakam if the price was right.

[Pauleta14]

No idea of the feasability but I'd love PATFO to try to get either PG13, KD or Derrick White

[TD 21]

Me saying your argument doesn't make sense isn't "taking a shot". Me asking you support your assertions isn't either. You calling folks naive is closer to a shot than any thing I've said. But if you want to drop this part of the conversation, I'm not against it.

I didn't say it did, just that you found time to fill your usual quota.

Support? Are were in court or are we offering basketball opinions on a message board?



You "following the NBA closely" isn't some point we all take as a given. These comments I guess imply you have some special insight that means we should defer to you, but you've never demonstrated that. You're just another fan as far as I can tell. While I'm sure some Spurs fans follow the league less than you, you seem to put too much weight into how much you think others follow the NBA compared to you. Somehow, that has led to you rarely providing support for you takes because you dismiss disagreeing opinions as less informed or naive.

You can actually just Google Portis, watch his interviews and read his Wiki article to find out what kind of player he seems to be. It's hard to justify defaulting to believe he is "too black" without making the extreme icky assumption that him punching a dude somehow adds to his blackness.

We? I'm talking to you; try as you might, you don't represent the board in this never ending crusade you (and some of these miserable old men) have against me.

In all the years you've "known" me on here, have I ever presented myself as an insider or been known to lie about anything? Maybe consider taking that into consideration when I make assertions about the Craptors.

Here's my "support": 30 years of evidence that says they strongly prefer to avoid certain types of players, whether they're actually like that or just present themselves as such (an undeniable point you keep ignoring).

That incident is not at all why I said what I did about Portis (more preconceived notions).


Not every player spends their last years winning titles. The Warriors may not win another title with Curry, but I don't know how many people expect him to demand out. Durant has rings. What he seemed to realize is that he cares about his legacy more than championships. Durant has been chasing winning "his own ring" for the past few years. While there are situations where Durant would still be the best player on his team, the time and places are running out. So how can Kevin wrap up his story to rebuild the broken parts of his legacy? OKC might be able to fix it, though him joining the 1-seed would sour the home-coming somewhat. I don't know that the returning to the New York media to play second-fiddle to Brunson is all that appealing.

San Antonio is one of the rare locations where he would get a legacy boost no matter what. If he carries the Spurs to a title, he gets "his own ring". If Wemby carries him to a ring, he gets to be the David Robinson to Victor's Duncan. If they don't win anything, he gets to be a mentor on a team that wasn't seriously expecting to win a title anyway. That a team would get to slowly grow around him is arguably the best counter to the rising narrative of Durant going from team to team demanding changes to get his guys and than leave them in shambles after failing to capitalize on the roster he helped build.

Again, completely ignorant as to how this league works. Players of this magnitude don't ride off into the sunset on re-building teams and Durant clearly wants his "own" championship to boost his legacy.


Unlike the Spurs, the Knicks have to add salary to a Durant trade on top of Randle. Ishiba may be willing to miss out on massive savings and have no interest in letting his FO maintain flexibility. My guess is the Suns would want that ballast to be more worthwhile than Bogdanovic. I'm not sure the Knicks would want to eat into their defensive core by trading Hart or DiVencenzo though. Maybe a third team could be pursuaded to give up a better fit for Bogs and a pick, but then you're playing a balancing game between how many assets the Knicks are willing to part with to get Durant and how many assets the Suns need to have after paying the third team to make moving KD worthwhile.

This is what I mean by acting as if I don't know that (and yes, you should know better). I'm talking about a base of a hypothetical that I believe has virtually no chance of occurring this off season anyway.


You seem to be conflating what OKC could offer if they aren't attached to conserving their roster with what they would offer practically. We don't know how much if at all they want Durant. I'm sure the Suns would love Dort. I'm not sure they'd love him over Murray, and Giddy's a contract needing an extension as much as he's a young player with potential at this point.

Again ignoring the unprecedented draft capital they possess, some of which would undoubtedly be used to buttress their potential package.

[R. DeMurre]

My ideal off-season would just be PATFO making the smartest moves with the situations they find in front of them, regardless of any rigid pre-conceived philosophy of how to improve around Wemby. If an impactful player becomes available via trade, look at that, of course-- but if not (which is extremely possible), just do your homework and draft well, and evaluate all the current players for future considerations. A good quote here to consider is John Wooden's "never mistake activity for achievement."
I'm not against being proactive at all-- in fact, I think they waited too long on Keldon, and missed out on his highest trade value, but what's done is done, and the future's still wide open with all of those draft picks.

[CGD]

What do folks think Trae’s value is right now? Salary and 2 real FRPs, or more?

And if that’s the case, what is the valuation on DJ? Salary plus 1 real FRP?

[TD 21]

What do folks think Trae’s value is right now? Salary and 2 real FRPs, or more?

And if that’s the case, what is the valuation on DJ? Salary plus 1 real FRP?

I don't know about value to other teams, but I don't think the Hawks move Young and Murray for any less than 3.5 and 2.5 "good" assets respectively. By that I mean, a combination of quality 1sts and young, cost controlled starting caliber players.

[Chinook]

I didn't say it did, just that you found time to fill your usual quota.

I'm done, Teeds. I think this vein of conversation has run its course. You can take it however you want, but at this point this back-and-forth has taken up much of the recent thread activity and bogged down what is supposed to be a pluripotent topic.

[scott]

2025-2026 San Antonio Spurs


Starters:


Jones, Vassell, Edgecombe, Markkanen, Wemby


Bench:


Sheppard, Harper, Johnson, Sochan, Zollins


Third string:


Wesley, Champ, Mamu


Jones/Sheppard + Wesley
Vassell/Harper
Edgecombe/Johnson + Champ
Markkanen/Sochan + Mamu
Wemby/Zollins


Harper/Jones/Wesley
Vassell/Edgecombe/Sheppard
Sochan/Johnson/Champ
Markkanen/Ruzic/Mamu
Wemby/Zollins/Ivisic


SAS 2024 #4 = Reed Sheppard
TOR conveys 2025 #8 = Dylan Harper
ATL 2025 #9 = VJ Edgecombe
SAS 2025 #16 = Michael Ruzic
CHI 2RP #34 = Zvonimir Ivisic
CHI & CHA do not convey 2025


2025 Free Agent = Lauri Markkanen


Still have draft assets:


CHI 2026 FRP
(top 8 protected 26 & 27, then two 2RPs)


CHA now converted to 2026 2RP + 2027 2RP


ATL 2026 FRP SWAP
ATL 2027 FRP
BOS 2028 FRP SWAP
DAL 2030 FRP SWAP


+ all SAS natural FRPs and a shit ton of 2RPs

Looks like for this offseason we only added Reed Sheppard and completely ran it back. So, not seeing how we make the playoffs and end up with the #16 pick based on that, personally. Also, I would have it if that were our offseason this year, personally.

[scott]

What do folks think Trae’s value is right now? Salary and 2 real FRPs, or more?

And if that’s the case, what is the valuation on DJ? Salary plus 1 real FRP?

I think there is likely a stark difference between Trae's true value and what ATL would accept. Meaning, I think it will take more to acquire him that what he's actually worth at this point... at least until he demands a trade.

[Chinook]

Ugh, so I typed up a whole scenario before Chrome decided to refresh.

I'll try to recreate it.

Assumptions:

- The draft order doesn't change or at least doesn't change for SAS, TOR or ATL
- The Spurs have ~$25 Million in cap space.
- Booker requests a trade

Trades:

-SAS trades Graham, cash and a second to Detroit for a fake second

The Spurs get a bit more cap space by paying Detroit to each DeVonte's guarantee.

-SAS trades Vassell, Sochan 5, TOR25, ATL 27 and best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25 for Booker and 10
-PHX trades Booker, Nurkic and 22 for Murray, Sochan, 5, TOR25, ATL27 and the best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25
- ATL trade Murray, Capela and 10 for Vassell, Nurkic, 22 and the worst of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25

Spurs get a superstar at a steep but affordable price
Suns get two starting pieces, three firsts and a jump from 22 to 5 while also saving on Nurkic's last year
Hawks get a native-born two-guard to play with Young and can use the Capella/Nurkic swap to refresh their trade exception

SAS trades Julian Champangie and CHA25 to BRK for Dorian Finney-Smith

Spurs eek out DFS to be their starting PF with the last bit of their cap space
Nets get a first and a youngish cost-controlled player for what could easily be an expiring contract

Draft:

-At 10, the Spurs select Cody Williams
-At 35, the Spurs select Harrison Ingram
-At 48, the Spurs selection Trey Alexander

Free Agency:

Sandro Mamukelashvili returns on a $8M/2 contract
Malachi Flynn joins on a $13M/4 contract (with only the first year guaranteed)

Roster:

Jones, Wesley, Flynn
Booker, Branham, Alexander
Williams, Johnson, Cissoko
Finney-Smith, Mamukelashvili, Ingram
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey


Comments:

I don't like this nearly as much as the other one. Teams don't need three superstars, but the Spurs would really be relying on Williams developing for the roster to have enough talent. Johnson is fine again as the sixth man, but it's kind of amazing that the second unit barely changed despite six players being added to the roster. Ideally, some ring-chasers could join the team so the second-rounders could be two-ways instead of being signed to the 15-man squad. Regardless, the team would be going into the 2025 off-season trying to use the full MLE to upgrade their PG spot. It could work out, but the clock is ticking.

[urunobili]

Draft Zach Edey….

[scott]

Appreciate the scenario Chinook!

I don't know the cap numbers off the top of my head, but if we could somehow keep Nurk and send off Collins, that would be an extra cherry. My other hope would be Holland to be there at 10 instead of Williams.

Love getting Booker, don't love that we're left with the same PG issues along with SG and PF depth issues.

Thanks for throwing some food for thought out there.

[Chinook]

Appreciate the scenario Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)!

I don't know the cap numbers off the top of my head, but if we could somehow keep Nurk and send off Collins, that would be an extra cherry. My other hope would be Holland to be there at 10 instead of Williams.

Love getting Booker, don't love that we're left with the same PG issues along with SG and PF depth issues.

Thanks for throwing some food for thought out there.

I don't know them too well either, but going from like 5 and 7 to just 10 opens up a considerable bit of room. I wanted to go with completely different players for this scenario, which is why trading for DFS and drafting Williams replaced signing O'Neale and drafting Holland. But you could change those out with most of the structure of the off-season being conserved.

I had considered doing a scenario that involved Vassell for Durant, but it's actually really hard to make that trade worthwhile for the Spurs. There aren't that many three-and-D SGs that can be had for what the Spurs could offer. I think a Dillingham/Durant/Wembanyama scoring trio is viable in the modern NBA though, and with the right role-players, it could grow into something. It's harder to figure out a suitable third option for Booker. An offense-first PG doesn't make a ton of sense, and an guy like Knecht could provide some scoring, but if both of your wings are weak defenders, it puts a larger burden on getting a defensive PG. Most defensive PGs aren't great at running the offense, and that's still really necessary for a Booker/Knecht/PF/Wemby unit.

[heyheymymy]

Looks like for this offseason we only added Reed Sheppard and completely ran it back. So, not seeing how we make the playoffs and end up with the #16 pick based on that, personally. Also, I would have it if that were our offseason this year, personally.

Good point scott yeah playoffs is the goal but realistically that might be more like a #12 or so but I'm trying to be optimistic based on the tail end of 23-24 season that at least some of Wemby, Vassell, Sochan, Johnson, Jones somewhat turn a corner or continue to develop further or the team coalesces or at least stabilizes to a degree though that may be up for debate understandably so. That's a lot of players still developing to call going 0-5 on, even Wemby alone will be advancing in skillsets as a pretty safe bet imho tbh just a matter of if it translates to significant wins or not.

Don't have to twist my arm to get more firmly into the lottery in a draft like 2025 lol but I'm like you hoping for a bit more success next season though doubtful if that can come from running it back so fully. Group D or bust, lol

[heyheymymy]

My main problem is I don't really like much of the FAs this offseason. Don't even see a big splash to make but the team probably does need to bring somebody in

If Markkanen was a Free Agent 2024 instead of next year 2025 I would be calling for throwing the bag at him like send all the churros necessary to get the deal inked

[Degoat]

Ideal Scenario currently, both picks convey. We draft Risacher at 3 and Jared McCain with the TOR pick. We sign Gary Trent Jr and a big maybe Valanciunas?

Id like to make the big splash but it’s hard to do after 1 year

[onechance87]

still believe we gut this team....Think we move on from wesley and branham and even tre jones.They are so average,They dont
do anything special to make our team better.Think we can upgrade and do better then those guys imo.Keldon,vassell,sochan idk
what to think of them,They didnt seem to have much chemistry with wemby.Like some tension or weird energy between them
or something.

[CGD]

All these trade scenarios, while appreciated, are reinforcing view that they should largely stay pat for one more summer. I’m highly wary of cashing in all the chips right now. I’d much rather the Spurs tell ATL, CLE, DET or whoever, “check in with us after you’ve gotten best offers from other teams,” and then decide if they want to beat it.

Two things I am watching for:

- When will they move Keldon? His max trade value starts now until Feb 2026.

- if TOR rolls over to 25, will having multiple 2025 FRPs actually depress their value vis-a-vis each other? And what does that do to the FO’s planning?

[Mal]

- When will they move Keldon? His max trade value starts now until Feb 2026.

- if TOR rolls over to 25, will having multiple 2025 FRPs actually depress their value vis-a-vis each other? And what does that do to the FO’s planning?

This is package for superstart, that will eventually demand a trade - Booker, Mitchell, Garland.

Johnson, 2 x 25 FRP, 26 FRP can be best offer for those guys

[JPB]

Ugh, so I typed up a whole scenario before Chrome decided to refresh.

I'll try to recreate it.

Assumptions:

- The draft order doesn't change or at least doesn't change for SAS, TOR or ATL
- The Spurs have ~$25 Million in cap space.
- Booker requests a trade

Trades:

-SAS trades Graham, cash and a second to Detroit for a fake second

The Spurs get a bit more cap space by paying Detroit to each DeVonte's guarantee.

-SAS trades Vassell, Sochan 5, TOR25, ATL 27 and best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25 for Booker and 10
-PHX trades Booker, Nurkic and 22 for Murray, Sochan, 5, TOR25, ATL27 and the best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25
- ATL trade Murray, Capela and 10 for Vassell, Nurkic, 22 and the worst of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25

Spurs get a superstar at a steep but affordable price
Suns get two starting pieces, three firsts and a jump from 22 to 5 while also saving on Nurkic's last year
Hawks get a native-born two-guard to play with Young and can use the Capella/Nurkic swap to refresh their trade exception

SAS trades Julian Champangie and CHA25 to BRK for Dorian Finney-Smith

Spurs eek out DFS to be their starting PF with the last bit of their cap space
Nets get a first and a youngish cost-controlled player for what could easily be an expiring contract

Draft:

-At 10, the Spurs select Cody Williams
-At 35, the Spurs select Harrison Ingram
-At 48, the Spurs selection Trey Alexander

Free Agency:

Sandro Mamukelashvili returns on a $8M/2 contract
Malachi Flynn joins on a $13M/4 contract (with only the first year guaranteed)

Roster:

Jones, Wesley, Flynn
Booker, Branham, Alexander
Williams, Johnson, Cissoko
Finney-Smith, Mamukelashvili, Ingram
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey


Comments:

I don't like this nearly as much as the other one. Teams don't need three superstars, but the Spurs would really be relying on Williams developing for the roster to have enough talent. Johnson is fine again as the sixth man, but it's kind of amazing that the second unit barely changed despite six players being added to the roster. Ideally, some ring-chasers could join the team so the second-rounders could be two-ways instead of being signed to the 15-man squad. Regardless, the team would be going into the 2025 off-season trying to use the full MLE to upgrade their PG spot. It could work out, but the clock is ticking.

If I'm ATL, I hate that trade.

[SpursGenius]

Get into the top 3 and get either Sar or Rizacher. Have another team get into top 3 outside the projected top 7 so we can get Dillingham at 7 by getting Toronto pick. Dillingham has a chance to be better SGA More athletic with Kentucky pedigree. Sar and Rizacher are clearly the top 2 picks in this years draft imo. Both Frenchmen would be great to pair with Wemby. Topic and Sheppherd are overrated imo. Topic sub par athlete for nba. Shepherd although great shooter and steal artist on defense he can’t create off dribble in the nba.

my top 5 according NBa all star hit rate.

1A Rizacher complete game both sides. Long athletic. Wet dream.
1B Sar great athlete can shoot 3. At 7’1 he will fill out and be interior presence. Would give Spurs a way better Townes and Gobert combo like Wolves have. But both spurs players would be 5 times better with added skill sets compared to wolves who may make finals this year.
2 Dillingaham. Exactly what spurs need. Alpha can create off dribble. Mega athlete. Great from 3. Can create. Defense can be taught to him.
3 Topic. If he could learn how to shoot he would be higher baby Luca clone.
4 Shepherd. Amazing three guy but can’t create off dribble at clip needed to be super star

[jjspur]

Ideally, if we get lucky in this draft and get Toronto's pick:
at #3-5 we draft Dillingham/Sheppard (no Topic please, we need a PG in the worst way)
at #7-9 we draft Donovan Clingan a big which would make a good backup replacement for Bassey (who will probably get released) or as a trade chip for a decent player and a future asset or two.
at #35 we draft the best player available for the Austin Spurs.
at #46 we draft Bronny to trade back to the Lakers/another team for 2 future picks. He's worth more as a trade asset than as a player- don't tell his egotistical, out of the playoffs, gone fishing dad that.
See if we can trade the Charlotte first for something of value - most likely some other teams bench player.

Sign Caleb Martin Sf. Can be a starter or 2nd teamer. Plays great defense and can score. (restricted free agent)
Sign free agent Xavier Tillman as a backup PF / C More tough defense even if he is a bit undersized.
Trade for Davion Mitchell as a backup pg.(restricted free agent) Shouldn't cost more than 2 2nd rounders (we have a bunch of them) Also plays good defense. See the pattern here.
Cut or try to trade one or more of Wesley, Branham or Siddy. Don't care which since all have major flaws or low BBIQ. (I'd keep Siddy)

Bottom line is we need defense and a noticeably better 2nd/3rd unit. Why waste a lot of money and assets for 1 player who costs a lot in salary affecting our cap situation , can only make so much of a difference and may have attitude issues. Spurs usually make small under the radar moves, here is their chance to do so with players that can make a difference, moves that are designed to at least get us into the play in tournament or better. Our current team won't cut it. If the spurs really want to win, they need more than a bunch of defensively challenged role players (not Wemby) and some slightly above G-League level cast offs. Good teams use the draft and trades to plug a hole here and there, teams like the spurs need to use the draft and trades to practically redo their team. 2025 will be a much better draft year to improve our team thru the draft or trades. Hopefully we'll have a much improved team by then.

[mo7888]

Ugh, so I typed up a whole scenario before Chrome decided to refresh.

I'll try to recreate it.

Assumptions:

- The draft order doesn't change or at least doesn't change for SAS, TOR or ATL
- The Spurs have ~$25 Million in cap space.
- Booker requests a trade

Trades:

-SAS trades Graham, cash and a second to Detroit for a fake second

The Spurs get a bit more cap space by paying Detroit to each DeVonte's guarantee.

-SAS trades Vassell, Sochan 5, TOR25, ATL 27 and best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25 for Booker and 10
-PHX trades Booker, Nurkic and 22 for Murray, Sochan, 5, TOR25, ATL27 and the best of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25
- ATL trade Murray, Capela and 10 for Vassell, Nurkic, 22 and the worst of SAS25, ATL25 and CHI25

Spurs get a superstar at a steep but affordable price
Suns get two starting pieces, three firsts and a jump from 22 to 5 while also saving on Nurkic's last year
Hawks get a native-born two-guard to play with Young and can use the Capella/Nurkic swap to refresh their trade exception

SAS trades Julian Champangie and CHA25 to BRK for Dorian Finney-Smith

Spurs eek out DFS to be their starting PF with the last bit of their cap space
Nets get a first and a youngish cost-controlled player for what could easily be an expiring contract

Draft:

-At 10, the Spurs select Cody Williams
-At 35, the Spurs select Harrison Ingram
-At 48, the Spurs selection Trey Alexander

Free Agency:

Sandro Mamukelashvili returns on a $8M/2 contract
Malachi Flynn joins on a $13M/4 contract (with only the first year guaranteed)

Roster:

Jones, Wesley, Flynn
Booker, Branham, Alexander
Williams, Johnson, Cissoko
Finney-Smith, Mamukelashvili, Ingram
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey


Comments:

I don't like this nearly as much as the other one. Teams don't need three superstars, but the Spurs would really be relying on Williams developing for the roster to have enough talent. Johnson is fine again as the sixth man, but it's kind of amazing that the second unit barely changed despite six players being added to the roster. Ideally, some ring-chasers could join the team so the second-rounders could be two-ways instead of being signed to the 15-man squad. Regardless, the team would be going into the 2025 off-season trying to use the full MLE to upgrade their PG spot. It could work out, but the clock is ticking.

I like that trade myself, but do we address the PG position? I don't see Tre being the guy in the first unit there.

[JPB]

Ideally, if we get lucky in this draft and get Toronto's pick:
at #3-5 we draft Dillingham/Sheppard (no Topic please, we need a PG in the worst way)
at #7-9 we draft Donovan Clingan a big which would make a good backup replacement for Bassey (who will probably get released) or as a trade chip for a decent player and a future asset or two.
at #35 we draft the best player available for the Austin Spurs.
at #46 we draft Bronny to trade back to the Lakers/another team for 2 future picks. He's worth more as a trade asset than as a player- don't tell his egotistical, out of the playoffs, gone fishing dad that.
See if we can trade the Charlotte first for something of value - most likely some other teams bench player.

Sign Caleb Martin Sf. Can be a starter or 2nd teamer. Plays great defense and can score. (restricted free agent)
Sign free agent Xavier Tillman as a backup PF / C More tough defense even if he is a bit undersized.
Trade for Davion Mitchell as a backup pg.(restricted free agent) Shouldn't cost more than 2 2nd rounders (we have a bunch of them) Also plays good defense. See the pattern here.
Cut or try to trade one or more of Wesley, Branham or Siddy. Don't care which since all have major flaws or low BBIQ. (I'd keep Siddy)

Bottom line is we need defense and a noticeably better 2nd/3rd unit. Why waste a lot of money and assets for 1 player who costs a lot in salary affecting our cap situation , can only make so much of a difference and may have attitude issues. Spurs usually make small under the radar moves, here is their chance to do so with players that can make a difference, moves that are designed to at least get us into the play in tournament or better. Our current team won't cut it. If the spurs really want to win, they need more than a bunch of defensively challenged role players (not Wemby) and some slightly above G-League level cast offs. Good teams use the draft and trades to plug a hole here and there, teams like the spurs need to use the draft and trades to practically redo their team. 2025 will be a much better draft year to improve our team thru the draft or trades. Hopefully we'll have a much improved team by then.

You gotta spent a lot of money and assets if you want that one star no matter what, same for quailty role players. And waiting changes nothing to that, stars and quality players in general won't come bigger and cheaper in 2 or 3 years, just because you're "patient". There's a lot of concurrence and always a team who will pull a big offer for them. Its very hard to get quality in the NBA, and you almost always have to overpay... Noone is undervaluing their assets, quite the contrary.

Same for salaries. Fred Van Fleet is making 42M this year, that's almost Trae money and sets the bar for the rest of the league.

[TimmyBuckets]

They're gonna stay pat and maybe get a vet sign up. They'll keep their picks and Toronto's if it conveys. They'll probably compete with what they have and maybe Wemby and the current squad, sans tank, can get to play-in. Regardless, Hawks are gonna suck next year considering one or both of their guards are gonna be traded. We got their 2025 picks and that the year we acquire an insane draft player or an amazing star next to Wemby.

[JPB]

They're gonna stay pat and maybe get a vet sign up. They'll keep their picks and Toronto's if it conveys. They'll probably compete with what they have and maybe Wemby and the current squad, sans tank, can get to play-in. Regardless, Hawks are gonna suck next year considering one or both of their guards are gonna be traded. We got their 2025 picks and that the year we acquire an insane draft player or an amazing star next to Wemby.

Not a chance. And they didn't tank.

[TimmyBuckets]

Not a chance. And they didn't tank.

They didn't tank this year? Interesting take.

[jjspur]

You gotta spent a lot of money and assets if you want that one star no matter what, same for quailty role players. And waiting changes nothing to that, stars and quality players in general won't come bigger and cheaper in 2 or 3 years, just because you're "patient". There's a lot of concurrence and always a team who will pull a big offer for them. Its very hard to get quality in the NBA, and you almost always have to overpay... Noone is undervaluing their assets, quite the contrary.

Same for salaries. Fred Van Fleet is making 42M this year, that's almost Trae money and sets the bar for the rest of the league.

Spending a lot of money on one or more players is great and all that, but it has other consequences. Just ask the top 4 NBA spenders GS, the Clips, Phoenix and Milwaukee where they are now. Bounced out of the first round in spite of all their spending. All that spending and all that losing. Spending a lot of money doesn't always get you playoff wins, and in this case, its far from it.

[Ariel]

Same for salaries. Fred Van Fleet is making 42M this year, that's almost Trae money and sets the bar for the rest of the league.
There's a context to that: Van Vleet signed AS A FREE AGENT, and ON A SHORT TERM DEAL. You cannot compare that witht Trae who would command a hell of a lot to acquire on top of his salary, plus a LONG TERM, COSTLY extension.

Not a chance. And they didn't tank.
Given the Sochan at PG experiment, it's either that (tank), or Pop's neurons are going the way of the dodo.

[R. DeMurre]

To me, the tank seemed clear-- the Sochan experiment, the exaggeratedly limited minutes for 19 yr old Wemby, the limited Tre minutes, players held out of games for the tiniest of aches, the "extreme caution...." it all adds up to piling up loses on purpose.

[The Truth #6]

Far from ideal, but I'm thinking of them signing Tyus Jones to increase point guard competency for 48 minutes. That could make Thanksgiving dinner really awkward, but could also really improve team cohesion. 2-3 year contract. A stop gap.

That would unfortunately mean moving one of Wesley or Branham, but lamentably, more likely Branham. Not because he can't become a good scorer eventually, but because he will remain one of the worst defenders in the league.

Draft: focus on small forwards, and take two if the TOR pick conveys. Buzelis, Knecht, Risacher, Holland. Take two of those 4, but probably only Holland if we also get Knecht or Risacher. We need at least one shooter coming in.

Again, the opposite of ideal. But the ideal scenarios seem like a risky role of the dice. Wemby doesn't seem to be saying Win Now, more like no more Lose Now. So ship out some bad defenders (Branham), draft a solid shooter (thinking Knecht), role the dice on another SF with upside if possible, shore up PG play with adding Tyus Jones, and take a breath and realize this draft sucks, and incremental improvement is more needed than desperate trades or not actually improving.

That's a low bar but just some ideas. Another idea is to package Keldon in some manner if they can't get find a role for him that works.

Moving forward, still need a player that get in the lane and bend the defense, and Dillingham is yes a player that makes sense given our offensive needs now but hesitant going that direction due to bad defense concerns.

[KobesAchilles]

Man after watching these playoffs, we are seriously far away from the top 4 teams remaining. And they are all young. I don't see us cracking into that echelon for a long long time. And if we stay the course with our current roster, I believe we will never break into that category.

[LeBowen]

Man after watching these playoffs, we are seriously far away from the top 4 teams remaining. And they are all young. I don't see us cracking into that echelon for a long long time. And if we stay the course with our current roster, I believe we will never break into that category.

Knicks' playoff rotation consists of: 33rd, 17th, 30th, 19th, 43rd, 36th, 36th and 20th pick.

It's all about front office competence and good coaching.
As I wrote before, new CBA favors us because it's going to be designed for two max contract rosters instead of three max contract superteams.

While we're really far away right now, peak PATFO would put us in contention by 2026 playoffs.
OKC is scary, but in three years they'll have to give three max extensions, with one of those being SGA's gigantic second max contract.
Minnesota will have to make some really hard decisions soon, there's only so much luxury tax you can pay.
Denver is already experiencing cap issues, their bench is arguably worse than Spurs bench, which says a lot.
Dallas used all their assets, this is as good as they're going to be.

I'm not saying that the road to contention will be easy, but I think Wemby has higher ceiling than anyone in the league and competent front office would easily put him in a great position with all the assets Spurs have.

[KobesAchilles]

Knicks' playoff rotation consists of: 33rd, 17th, 30th, 19th, 43rd, 36th, 36th and 20th pick.

It's all about front office competence and good coaching.
As I wrote before, new CBA favors us because it's going to be designed for two max contract rosters instead of three max contract superteams.

While we're really far away right now, peak PATFO would put us in contention by 2026 playoffs.
OKC is scary, but in three years they'll have to give three max extensions, with one of those being SGA's gigantic second max contract.
Minnesota will have to make some really hard decisions soon, there's only so much luxury tax you can pay.
Denver is already experiencing cap issues, their bench is arguably worse than Spurs bench, which says a lot.
Dallas used all their assets, this is as good as they're going to be.

I'm not saying that the road to contention will be easy, but I think Wemby has higher ceiling than anyone in the league and competent front office would easily put him in a great position with all the assets Spurs have.
Do we have one though? Because I've been saying for years (and this is just one guy's opinion) that we don't. I believe we are the Kings of the basketball world. I won't go Pistons level. But I don't believe we have a good coach, good assistant coaches, nor a good GM. We are behind the curve in many ways besides talent on the court, where I think we are far far behind as constructed.

But who knows. Maybe we hit on some diamonds.

[Mr. Body]

To me, the tank seemed clear-- the Sochan experiment, the exaggeratedly limited minutes for 19 yr old Wemby, the limited Tre minutes, players held out of games for the tiniest of aches, the "extreme caution...." it all adds up to piling up loses on purpose.

The Sochan 'experiment' wasn't to lose games. The team said they wanted to try things out and see what worked. Why don't you believe them?

1. They wanted to try a jumbo lineup with Wembanyama next to a center. This moved Sochan to point.
2. This was a way of trying Keldon in the starting lineup. This was a major question at the beginning of the year - who went to the bench between Sochan and Keldon.

They legitimately wanted to see if this could work, while making adjustments. I'm honestly very confused why you, or anybody, would think they were just straight up trying to lose games. If so, why play anybody? Just play Sir'Jabari Rice.

[Mr. Body]

Do we have one though? Because I've been saying for years (and this is just one guy's opinion) that we don't. I believe we are the Kings of the basketball world. I won't go Pistons level. But I don't believe we have a good coach, good assistant coaches, nor a good GM. We are behind the curve in many ways besides talent on the court, where I think we are far far behind as constructed.

But who knows. Maybe we hit on some diamonds.

Yeah, it sucks being a poverty franchise that hasn't won five titles. This really sucks.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah, it sucks being a poverty franchise that hasn't won five titles. This really sucks.
The Pistons have won 3 titles, they still suck today you moron. Coaches don't coach forever. Eventually they get to old for the job or just are out of their prime and can't do as good a job anymore. Belicheck lost his fastball and was fired. Landry was Dallas and he was fired. Coaches are like players. They have a timestamp of greatness and Pop is no exception. He is not a good coach anymore. He wouldn't make anybody's top 5 list. All-time he might be top 3, but currently in today's NBA he is behind JKidd in his own division.

RC is not the GM anymore. We have Wright. And I think he is not a good drafter. Take away Wemby and he has had a lot of misses. And even with Wemby, we can't afford anymore misses going forward. We don't have the talent to overcome a bad front office. And nobody on our staff is being considered for any coaching position, and everybody who was good leftt for other pastures.

[Chomag]

Do we have one though? Because I've been saying for years (and this is just one guy's opinion) that we don't. I believe we are the Kings of the basketball world. I won't go Pistons level. But I don't believe we have a good coach, good assistant coaches, nor a good GM. We are behind the curve in many ways besides talent on the court, where I think we are far far behind as constructed.

But who knows. Maybe we hit on some diamonds.
Yep, had we not gotten lucky with Wemby the topic of competing as a elite team wouldn't even be a thing and that pick was a no brainer had nothing to do having a good coach or GM.

What does seem to have been exposed year after year is how overrated our head coach and gm is and the writing is on the wall on how not good they really are and are way behind the league but some here are still in denile.

How in the world does a team who adds a generational talent to it and who has stayed relatively healthy be a worse them then the previous season.

[Chomag]

Yeah, it sucks being a poverty franchise that hasn't won five titles. This really sucks.
Well it's this type of attitude that keeps from ever seeing a 6th and on.

[JPB]

To me, the tank seemed clear-- the Sochan experiment, the exaggeratedly limited minutes for 19 yr old Wemby, the limited Tre minutes, players held out of games for the tiniest of aches, the "extreme caution...." it all adds up to piling up loses on purpose.


There's a context to that: Van Vleet signed AS A FREE AGENT, and ON A SHORT TERM DEAL. You cannot compare that witht Trae who would command a hell of a lot to acquire on top of his salary, plus a LONG TERM, COSTLY extension.

Given the Sochan at PG experiment, it's either that (tank), or Pop's neurons are going the way of the dodo.

Nope guys, sorry but Pop wasn't bluffing when he said last year was about developing this year they'd focus on winning. And like many fans, they genuinely first thought they had something with Sochan at PG, which is worrying about the lucidity of the staff ( not surprised about us fans lucidity).

There were harsh debates here about Sochan at PG, which wasn't trashed from the start (I was an early con, tbh). And there's certainly a bit of cognitive dissonance in trying to comfort ourselves into thinking that roster isn't that bad but were tanking, specially after many, including me, thought they were a 30 win team or had a remote chance to fight for the play in last summer... I'm afraid It IS that bad, guys.

[JPB]

Knicks' playoff rotation consists of: 33rd, 17th, 30th, 19th, 43rd, 36th, 36th and 20th pick.

It's all about front office competence and good coaching.
As I wrote before, new CBA favors us because it's going to be designed for two max contract rosters instead of three max contract superteams.

While we're really far away right now, peak PATFO would put us in contention by 2026 playoffs.
OKC is scary, but in three years they'll have to give three max extensions, with one of those being SGA's gigantic second max contract.
Minnesota will have to make some really hard decisions soon, there's only so much luxury tax you can pay.
Denver is already experiencing cap issues, their bench is arguably worse than Spurs bench, which says a lot.
Dallas used all their assets, this is as good as they're going to be.

I'm not saying that the road to contention will be easy, but I think Wemby has higher ceiling than anyone in the league and competent front office would easily put him in a great position with all the assets Spurs have.

I do'nt believe Kncks even make the POs in the East. That's a pretty mediocre team to me, Brunson and a bunch of guys. that's how bad the East is.

Edit: I meant in the West ofc.

[JPB]

Yep, had we not gotten lucky with Wemby the topic of competing as a elite team wouldn't even be a thing and that pick was a no brainer had nothing to do having a good coach or GM.

What does seem to have been exposed year after year is how overrated our head coach and gm is and the writing is on the wall on how not good they really are and are way behind the league but some here are still in denile.

How in the world does a team who adds a generational talent to it and who has stayed relatively healthy be a worse them then the previous season.

I respect this franchise, Pop and R.C as much as everyone, but they're clearly living on their past glory now. The NBA has caught up to them and just like players get outdated and overtaken by more adapted ones, coaches and FO peeps can too... Wemby is masking this franchise flaws right now, which indeed has to be evaluated without considering Victor.

The construction of this roster, minus Wemby, is just not good at all and the players don't seem to improve that well, assuming they had the talent for that. Add spurs mediocre to bad draft record these past 5 years or so and this franchise is just and entirely Wemby right now, who was given to them.

[rascal]

Get picks 1 and 7 and draft Sarr and Castle

Go for defensive upside in this draft and then all star offensive talent next year.

This locks down their defense with youth. Trade for a bench shooter like Jordan Hawkins. One more year in the lottery for the Spurs and get the Atlanta pick in the lottery next year too.

Next year get lucky in the lottery and add two future all star offensive prospects from this group at SF/SG ( Cooper Flagg, Ace Bailey, VJ Edgecombe, Dylan Harper, Dink Pate, Hugo Gonzalez, Tre Johnson, Collin Boyles )

Next year's draft class is loaded with offensive wings so target defense in this year's draft, stay away from limited defensive prospects this year.

Team building should be viewed as a two year process across both drafts.

[LeBowen]

I do'nt believe Kncks even make the POs in the East. That's a pretty mediocre team to me, Brunson and a bunch of guys. that's how bad the East is.

My point was that they managed to build a very good roster with smart, cheap moves and didn't look for star power.
They're a play-in team in the West, but that roster would be more or less perfect for Wemby if Brunson was a couple of inches taller.
If someone asked me if I'd take Hart and OG as long-term solutions on wing positions, I'd ask them where do I sign.

[onechance87]

I think we can be in the playoffs nxt year.But pop gotta stop his with his ego and favotorism with players and coaching.
He stuck with collins and branham thru out the year even tho they were terrible on both sides of the court.He didnt give other players
a chance to prove themselves like graham and mamu which was disgraceful.Stop babying wemby with min restriction.
With the decline with warriors and lakers,Think we can be as good or better then them if pop does his fcking job.

[rascal]

I think we can be in the playoffs nxt year.But pop gotta stop his with his ego and favotorism with players and coaching.
He stuck with collins and branham thru out the year even tho they were terrible on both sides of the court.He didnt give other players
a chance to prove themselves like graham and mamu which was disgraceful.Stop babying wemby with min restriction.
With the decline with warriors and lakers,Think we can be as good or better then them if pop does his fcking job.

I don't want the playoffs next year. I want two top ten picks in next year's draft to land a couple of future all stars. Then the foundation is set for a future dynasty team.

The team still needs talent and this year's draft isn't going to add an all star talent. Be patient for one more year.

[rascal]

My point was that they managed to build a very good roster with smart, cheap moves and didn't look for star power.
They're a play-in team in the West, but that roster would be more or less perfect for Wemby if Brunson was a couple of inches taller.
If someone asked me if I'd take Hart and OG as long-term solutions on wing positions, I'd ask them where do I sign.

Target another superstar talent like Ace Bailey in next year's draft to build with Wemby.

That's how you get a dynasty not targeting marginal average players around Wemby.

[ace3g]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIywtS3eE_8

[onechance87]

I don't want the playoffs next year. I want two top ten picks in next year's draft to land a couple of future all stars. Then the foundation is set for a future dynasty team.

The team still needs talent and this year's draft isn't going to add an all star talent. Be patient for one more year.

well wemby wants the playoffs...Dont matter what the fans want,Or coaching or management want.You better believe
wemby wants in on the playoffs next year.Or at least sum type of team improvement to get close to the playoffs.

[ambchang]

Knicks' playoff rotation consists of: 33rd, 17th, 30th, 19th, 43rd, 36th, 36th and 20th pick.

It's all about front office competence and good coaching.

:dizzy

[Death In June]

Draft Risacher and Reed with their ‘24 picks. Trade the Chi 1st, Spurs ‘27 pick for Murray. Go into 2025 with 3 picks to utilize and a better FA class to shore up your front court. At some point, unload Keldon and Collins.

[R. DeMurre]

The Sochan 'experiment' wasn't to lose games. The team said they wanted to try things out and see what worked. Why don't you believe them?
.

They legitimately wanted to see if this could work, while making adjustments. I'm honestly very confused why you, or anybody, would think they were just straight up trying to lose games. If so, why play anybody? Just play Sir'Jabari Rice.

Playing Sochan at PG gets him experience with ballhandling and playmaking, which in the long term makes him a better all around player. it's a luxury you have if winning games isn't a priority-- thus a win win situation where you can disguise your tanking as player development while actually doing legit player development.

[LeBowen]

:dizzy

You really don't follow anything that's happening around the league, do you?
Knicks have been a joke for around two decades, Leon Rose comes in and turns them into a legit playoff team within a few years.
Didn't use many assets, they still own all of their picks and Randle who's not even playing is also on a good contract.
If a superstar asks out, that's a great package. And they've got the big market draw.

They won't win anything with this roster, but they're in a good position to make further improvements.

Meanwhile, we're waiting for the lottery outcome for the fifth straight season.
If those balls bounced differently last year, we would still be the worst team in the league with no realistic way of getting into the playoffs for at least three more years.

[ambchang]

You really don't follow anything that's happening around the league, do you?
Knicks have been a joke for around two decades, Leon Rose comes in and turns them into a legit playoff team within a few years.
Didn't use many assets, they still own all of their picks and Randle who's not even playing is also on a good contract.
If a superstar asks out, that's a great package. And they've got the big market draw.

They won't win anything with this roster, but they're in a good position to make further improvements.

Meanwhile, we're waiting for the lottery outcome for the fifth straight season.
If those balls bounced differently last year, we would still be the worst team in the league with no realistic way of getting into the playoffs for at least three more years.

Relax. It’s a joke.

Besides, the Knicks aren’t even that good.

[tbdog]

Thoughts on offering Paul George a big contract to woo him from LA? Or do you think he is sixers bound if he leaves?

[Dverde]

Thoughts on offering Paul George a big contract to woo him from LA? Or do you think he is sixers bound if he leaves?

He definitely is not over himself. I can’t see the Spurs wanting him at this point in his career.

[MultiTroll]

Thoughts on offering Paul George a big contract to woo him from LA? Or do you think he is sixers bound if he leaves?
Very much interested in not acquiring soft diva.
Massively overpaid to boot.

[scott]

I like PG13, but after waiving Graham we'll still only have about $24MM in cap space and I think the most we can free up is around $27MM. So we aren't going to be able to get PG13 as a direct signing.

He's been able to stay healthy, but he just turned 34 and I'm sure will be looking for a 4-year deal. If it were a 2-year deal, I'd be very intrigued.

[Chinook]

The Spurs could probably get a max slot if they really wanted to. The question is, should they want to for George?

[R. DeMurre]

I think LeBron is tricking a lot of people into thinking that staying effective & impactful up until 38/39 is going to become the norm. People need to remember that Carmelo Anthony is also 39, and Dwight Howard is 38. Longevity in sports has certainly changed in the last decade, but it's still a big risk giving a huge 4 year contract to a 34/35 yr old.

[scott]

The Spurs could probably get a max slot if they really wanted to. The question is, should they want to for George?

TBH I'd much rather have George on a 2/100 (if that is even possible, I don't fully know the rules on short term deals) than Middleton on his remaining 2/65 (second year player option) that will require assets to obtain. I don't want PG13 on anything longer than a 2 year deal though.

I'll add to this and say that overpaying on a 2-year deal like Houston did with FVV makes a lot of sense while you have your core on rookie deals. Right now the Spurs have a max-level player (Wemby) playing for essentially the MLE. We should take advantage of that while we can. While it would be a much lesser splash, I'd feel the same way about Monk on a 2/50 or 3/70.

[LeBowen]

TBH I'd much rather have George on a 2/100 (if that is even possible, I don't fully know the rules on short term deals) than Middleton on his remaining 2/65 (second year player option) that will require assets to obtain. I don't want PG13 on anything longer than a 2 year deal though.

I'll add to this and say that overpaying on a 2-year deal like Houston did with FVV makes a lot of sense while you have your core on rookie deals. Right now the Spurs have a max-level player (Wemby) playing for essentially the MLE. We should take advantage of that while we can. While it would be a much lesser splash, I'd feel the same way about Monk on a 2/50 or 3/70.

Agreed, especially with your final point of utilizing Wemby's rookie deal.
I'd say deals for players 32 or older shouldn't be longer than 2 years.
I wouldn't trade any FRPs for players older than 28 or so unless they're legit superstars.

[scott]

I don't know how to free up the space to do it, but I imagine it must involve moving Keldon and Collins. So for this scenario I'm just going to assume that somehow give them away for nothing and we sign PG13 for 2/100.

Draft Dilly and Matas or Holland.

Bring back Cedi on a vet min deal.

Next year's lineup:

Tre/Dilly/Blake
Vassell/Branham/Some TBD SRP
PG13/Matas or Holland/Champ
Sochan/Cedi/Mamu
Wemby/Bassey/Barlow

All assets left intact (assumes TOR pick conveys).

Branham getting real minutes is a real weak spot, but PG13 could fill in SG minutes as well limiting Bran's PT. PF remains a weak point as well, maybe Matas fills in there if he hits.

[spurraider21]

The Spurs could probably get a max slot if they really wanted to. The question is, should they want to for George?
if its for the maximum, why not?

wait...

[spurraider21]

but seriously, i'd gladly overpay george for a 3 year deal while wemby is still on his rookie deal. the amount of draft capital it would take to pry open the cap space would pale in comparison to the draft capital needed to trade for somebody of similar ability

[KingKev]

Potential sparks flying in Miami with Jimmy Buckets. If shit hits the fan we might be able to help facilitate a trade with whatever team is stupid enough to pay up the ass in assets for the opportunity to pay another aging star 50m a season.

[MultiTroll]

Spurs send
Craig Pop
KJ
one 1st round pick protected

Lakers send
Lebron
Dinwiddle

[DAF86]

Pipedream offseason (none of these moves have a dick ass chance of happening, but bare with me):

TRADES:

-All of the Hawks' picks + Keldon Johnson + Cash consideration for Cade Cunningham (and filler).

-'24 Spurs lottery pick + cash consideration + Devonte Graham for Naz Reid.

-Raptors pick + Bulls Pick + Collins for Herb Jones.

FREE AGENCY:

-Sign Royce O'neal for 2 years.

ROTATION:

8 man rotation:

Cade (36 mins)
Vassell (35 mins)
Herb (35 mins)
Sochan (32 mins)
Wemby (33 mins)

Tre (20 mins)
Royce (21 mins)
Reid (31 mins)

[The Truth #6]

Sign Tyus Jones and Kyle Anderson. Show a modicum of effort in improving for Wemby. But a star will likely have to come in the draft, otherwise another DDR type hostage scenario where he is gritting his teeth waiting to get out. If a worthwhile star wants to come here, sure, but I'm not ready to trade draft assets unless it is for someone good and young and wants to be here.

[Ariel]

All of the Hawks' picks + Keldon Johnson + Cash consideration for Cade Cunningham (and filler).
Honestly I think Cade Cunningham is vastly overrated as a defender, shooter, athlete, and his availability is very suspect. Plus he's making a max as soon as next year. Good player, but I see a fringe all star (might make the team 2/3 times but not every year) and not the perennial All NBA guy he was thought of entering the league. I'm probably in the minority though.

[Chinook]

TBH I'd much rather have George on a 2/100 (if that is even possible, I don't fully know the rules on short term deals) than Middleton on his remaining 2/65 (second year player option) that will require assets to obtain. I don't want PG13 on anything longer than a 2 year deal though.

I'll add to this and say that overpaying on a 2-year deal like Houston did with FVV makes a lot of sense while you have your core on rookie deals. Right now the Spurs have a max-level player (Wemby) playing for essentially the MLE. We should take advantage of that while we can. While it would be a much lesser splash, I'd feel the same way about Monk on a 2/50 or 3/70.


but seriously, i'd gladly overpay george for a 3 year deal while wemby is still on his rookie deal. the amount of draft capital it would take to pry open the cap space would pale in comparison to the draft capital needed to trade for somebody of similar ability


Just to be clear, when I'm talking about how the Spurs could free up the space, I do mean at the expense of multiple first-rounders.

Here is a rough table for how the salaries would have to break down to add PG or any tier-3 max player to the roster:




Player
2024-25


Keldon Johnson
$19,000,000


Victor Wembanyama
$12,768,960


Tre Jones
$9,104,167


Devin Vassell
$29,347,826


Jeremy Sochan
$5,570,040


Malaki Branham
$3,217,920


Blake Wesley
$2,624,280


Sidy Cissoko
$1,891,857


Tenth Pick
$4,570,900


Roster Charge
$1,160,544


Roster Charge
$1,160,544


Roster Charge
$1,160,544






Team Totals
$91,577,582


Cap
$141,000,000


Cap Space
$49,422,418




As you can see, it involves the team trading Collins and Graham's partial guarantee into cap space and moving down to the tenth-overall pick to save just that last bit of space. How all that actually could work would be for a more involved scenario, but the Spurs would be able to add someone to their current top five guys and could still have a lotto pick to shore up holes. The bad part is that if you were hoping to upgrade any of those positions, there isn't much in terms of flexibility to address that. At 10, there could be a decent prospect available. Holland, Collier and maybe even Clingan might be there. They'd also have their seconds and the room exception to fill out the roster. Below is an example of a filled-out roster. New additions are bolded.

Jones, Wesley, Markus Howard (RE)
Vassell, Branham, Alexander (48)
George, Johnson, Ajinca (35)
Sochan, Bates-Diop (min) Cissoko
Wembanyama, Filipowski (10), Tillman (min)


It's hard to see that as a great team given George's injury history. The defense should be better, but they'd have to hope of the eventual best players in the draft is there at 10 for them to truly make some noise. The second unit looks like it'd be anemic on offense unless one of the third-unit guys breaks through or Branham/Wesley takes a big step forward. It just comes down to there being so many holes that it's hard to meaningfully address the bulk of them if the priority is to create almost $50 Million of cap space that will all get spent on one guy.

[scott]

Thanks Chinook. Definitely far less appealing if the only mechanism for obtaining the cap space is to have to give up significant draft capital. Would rather just wait and see what happens with Lauri in that case. If he doesn't extend with Utah this offseason, maybe you can get him for relatively cheap at the deadline to be in the driver's seat to resign him.

[spurraider21]

Just to be clear, when I'm talking about how the Spurs could free up the space, I do mean at the expense of multiple first-rounders.

Here is a rough table for how the salaries would have to break down to add PG or any tier-3 max player to the roster:




Player
2024-25


Keldon Johnson
$19,000,000


Victor Wembanyama
$12,768,960


Tre Jones
$9,104,167


Devin Vassell
$29,347,826


Jeremy Sochan
$5,570,040


Malaki Branham
$3,217,920


Blake Wesley
$2,624,280


Sidy Cissoko
$1,891,857


Tenth Pick
$4,570,900


Roster Charge
$1,160,544


Roster Charge
$1,160,544


Roster Charge
$1,160,544






Team Totals
$91,577,582


Cap
$141,000,000


Cap Space
$49,422,418




As you can see, it involves the team trading Collins and Graham's partial guarantee into cap space and moving down to the tenth-overall pick to save just that last bit of space. How all that actually could work would be for a more involved scenario, but the Spurs would be able to add someone to their current top five guys and could still have a lotto pick to shore up holes. The bad part is that if you were hoping to upgrade any of those positions, there isn't much in terms of flexibility to address that. At 10, there could be a decent prospect available. Holland, Collier and maybe even Clingan might be there. They'd also have their seconds and the room exception to fill out the roster. Below is an example of a filled-out roster. New additions are bolded.

Jones, Wesley, Markus Howard (RE)
Vassell, Branham, Alexander (48)
George, Johnson, Ajinca (35)
Sochan, Bates-Diop (min) Cissoko
Wembanyama, Filipowski (10), Tillman (min)


It's hard to see that as a great team given George's injury history. The defense should be better, but they'd have to hope of the eventual best players in the draft is there at 10 for them to truly make some noise. The second unit looks like it'd be anemic on offense unless one of the third-unit guys breaks through or Branham/Wesley takes a big step forward. It just comes down to there being so many holes that it's hard to meaningfully address the bulk of them if the priority is to create almost $50 Million of cap space that will all get spent on one guy.
yeah it certainly would be a stretch to make it work. you could also create the space by moving Keldon, who you still have hanging around, and moving him shouldnt require us to pay to get that done. especially if we are doing all this to acquire a SF who we expect to play legit starters minutes, unlike what shampenny was doing. it would certainly be cheaper to trade for the cap space than to trade for an under-contract George/Butler, etc

[Chinook]

yeah it certainly would be a stretch to make it work. you could also create the space by moving Keldon, who you still have hanging around, and moving him shouldnt require us to pay to get that done. especially if we are doing all this to acquire a SF who we expect to play legit starters minutes, unlike what shampenny was doing. it would certainly be cheaper to trade for the cap space than to trade for an under-contract George/Butler, etc

It'd be easier to trade for the players rather than the space for multiple reasons. If the Spurs are moving Keldon, then he represents salvage value for LAC or MIA. They're more just as likely to value him as, say DET would, and they're far less likely to expect compensation for taking him. Then because of matching rules, it's just about creating the remaining trade ballast to meet the new requirements. That's $36 Million for Butler and $40 Million for George. Keldon makes $19 Million next year, so the Spurs would have to create $17 Million and $21 Million respectively. Collins and Graham could help there, as could getting someone to S&T for Osman. If the Spurs are trading for such a huge contract, it's likely in the team's best interest to operate as an over-the-cap team and keep the MLE for rebuilding.

All that said, I'm not a fan of trading away Johnson just to acquire one player with all that space. As I've mentioned before, the roster is absurdly thin after making all that cap space. With Johnson, 10 and the RE, you can build an eight-man rotation. Taking Johnson away, even subbing back in a second first and exchanging the RE for the MLE, and you instantly have to use a lot of value to replace him. Keldon for all his faults would be a strong sixth man to pair with a Vassel/George/Sochan interior lineup. Insofar as he fits at all, he fits well with any one or two of those players. With the Spurs unlikely to be able to bring in a top sixth-man guard like Monk with the resources they have available, they might end up relying on Branham becoming that player. I don't think it makes sense to take that risk.

[JPB]

Thanks Chinook. Definitely far less appealing if the only mechanism for obtaining the cap space is to have to give up significant draft capital. Would rather just wait and see what happens with Lauri in that case. If he doesn't extend with Utah this offseason, maybe you can get him for relatively cheap at the deadline to be in the driver's seat to resign him.

I'm afraid you can't get talent for even "relatively" cheap in the NBA, deadline or not. UTA won't have any problems finding suitors for Lauri, and some teams that will offer more than you would like.

[scott]

I'm afraid you can't get talent for even "relatively" cheap in the NBA, deadline or not. UTA won't have any problems finding suitors for Lauri, and some teams that will offer more than you would like.

I'd be happy to give up quite a bit for Lauri - I'm not trying to get him for cheap. But if he is heading towards FA at the deadline, he will come relatively cheaper than trying to acquire him this summer, or especially than if he extends this summer. That was my point.

[Chinook]

Thanks Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557). Definitely far less appealing if the only mechanism for obtaining the cap space is to have to give up significant draft capital. Would rather just wait and see what happens with Lauri in that case. If he doesn't extend with Utah this offseason, maybe you can get him for relatively cheap at the deadline to be in the driver's seat to resign him.

It's why cap space isn't the best medium to acquire talent right now. The Spurs should trade directly for their talent upgrades and only use cap space for more modest upgrades or to facilitate trades. It's possible to sign George, Harden or James outright. It's in the team's best interest, though, to do straight trades. It's why Graham's guarantee might actually get picked up. He could easily be more useful as a full tradeable contract than as cap space. Even if they boot him, the should look to trade for another contract that they could turn around to flip in a future trade. Only in some special trades with over-salaried clubs should the Spurs' pitch be to take a massive cap deficit in addition to major asset concessions.

[JPB]

It'd be easier to trade for the players rather than the space for multiple reasons. If the Spurs are moving Keldon, then he represents salvage value for LAC or MIA. They're more just as likely to value him as, say DET would, and they're far less likely to expect compensation for taking him. Then because of matching rules, it's just about creating the remaining trade ballast to meet the new requirements. That's $36 Million for Butler and $40 Million for George. Keldon makes $19 Million next year, so the Spurs would have to create $17 Million and $21 Million respectively. Collins and Graham could help there, as could getting someone to S&T for Osman. If the Spurs are trading for such a huge contract, it's likely in the team's best interest to operate as an over-the-cap team and keep the MLE for rebuilding.

All that said, I'm not a fan of trading away Johnson just to acquire one player with all that space. As I've mentioned before, the roster is absurdly thin after making all that cap space. With Johnson, 10 and the RE, you can build an eight-man rotation. Taking Johnson away, even subbing back in a second first and exchanging the RE for the MLE, and you instantly have to use a lot of value to replace him. Keldon for all his faults would be a strong sixth man to pair with a Vassel/George/Sochan interior lineup. Insofar as he fits at all, he fits well with any one or two of those players. With the Spurs unlikely to be able to bring in a top sixth-man guard like Monk with the resources they have available, they might end up relying on Branham becoming that player. I don't think it makes sense to take that risk.

Depends on who you draft these next couple years, but Johnson isn't in any way a vital or even that important part of that roster in the grand scheme of things, imo.

Keldon has been in the league for 5 years and honestly not shown he could even be a solid 6th man in a competitive team (we can forget a Manu type). His repertoire is pretty limited, can't really create for himself or others, not a real slasher nor an elite driver, defense below average, decent but not that great either shooting. He'll give you the few hustle plays (and flexing) but I don"t see a big margin of progression for him.

If you (somehow) can draft Risacher at 8 to 10M/year, that's 9 to 11M you can save. More if you pick a SF lower. There's risks that Risacher or any other SF won't reach Keldon's level but yet again, Keldon is a cool kid but isn't that valuable that it would be that big of a risk specially with the flexibility it would give you and assets you could get back.

But I agree cap space isn't the best medium to acquire talent right now.

[JPB]

I'd be happy to give up quite a bit for Lauri - I'm not trying to get him for cheap. But if he is heading towards FA at the deadline, he will come relatively cheaper than trying to acquire him this summer, or especially than if he extends this summer. That was my point.

I'm not even sure, tbh. If you tell me there's a couple of interested teams and UTA has to move him, yeah you have some leverage. But Lauri will draw interest all around the league and from that point on, it's an offer and demand thing. You'll always have one or several desperate contenders or teams beliveing they're one Lauri away to make the same kind of offer you would find in other contractual situations.

And Ainge is a shark.

[scott]

I'm not even sure, tbh. If you tell me there's a couple of interested teams and UTA has to move him, yeah you have some leverage. But Lauri will draw interest all around the league and from that point on, it's an offer and demand thing. You'll always have one or several desperate contenders or teams beliveing they're one Lauri away to make the same kind of offer you would find in other contractual situations.

And Ainge is a shark.

Not sure it's worth arguing over, but I will contend that Lauri is worth more this summer than he'll be at the deadline (if not previously extended). I didn't say he'd still be cheap, just relatively cheaper than he will be this summer. Of course, we'll never know - because we don't know what teams would theoretically offer this summer (before or after an extension) or at the deadline. But, the risk of Lauri potentially being a back-half of the season rental would logically support the idea that his price tag will be lower (by some unknown quantity).

I agree Ainge is a shark though, and I would approach with caution.

[KobesAchilles]

Is Butler available? With the shit Riley has been saying, it does make me wonder. I know he is old, but man he is exactly the player I hope to have on our team. Give him a 3 year (team option 3rd) max deal after we trade for him. Heck I would trade both of our picks this year for him

[mo7888]

It's why cap space isn't the best medium to acquire talent right now. The Spurs should trade directly for their talent upgrades and only use cap space for more modest upgrades or to facilitate trades. It's possible to sign George, Harden or James outright. It's in the team's best interest, though, to do straight trades. It's why Graham's guarantee might actually get picked up. He could easily be more useful as a full tradeable contract than as cap space. Even if they boot him, the should look to trade for another contract that they could turn around to flip in a future trade. Only in some special trades with over-salaried clubs should the Spurs' pitch be to take a massive cap deficit in addition to major asset concessions.

It seems less expensive (asset-wise) to trade for PG directly in a s&t (if that's allowed). I know Balmer probably doesn't want to, but if the threat of losing him for nothing to philly is on the table he might deal with us and it could be less expensive than trading for cap space.

[Chinook]

It seems less expensive (asset-wise) to trade for PG directly in a s&t (if that's allowed). I know Balmer probably doesn't want to, but if the threat of losing him for nothing to philly is on the table he might deal with us and it could be less expensive than trading for cap space.

So it looks like the Clippers could S&T George, but they couldn't receive any salary back for him. That certainly makes it harder to match him. It looks like the Clippers could extend-and-trade George if he opts in. That would be a $153.7M/3 deal. The only restriction they'd have then is not being able to take back more salary than they send out. The Spurs would need to send out almost exactly $39 Million to match, though it doesn't all have to go to the Clippers. The easiest way to create this matching salary would be to trade Johnson and Collins, for $35.7 Million total and then to increase Graham's guarantee to $3.3 Million to make up the rest of the salary. Then the Spurs can pay a team to take Collins and trade Johnson and Graham to LAC along with some seconds so the Clips can trade Graham away to save on that tax hit if they so choose or keep the seconds to use later.

What it would take to get off Collins is the biggest question. In the scenario I laid out yesterday, I had the Spurs trading Collins, 5, and the worse of the ATL picks to Atlanta for 10 and Graham, seconds and cash to Detroit. That trade down was necessary to open up the extra cap space. It wouldn't be necessary here, so other ideas could be explored. Or the Clippers could keep Collins in return for getting say the CHI and CHA picks.

Let's assume the Spurs have 6 and 7 (which are as far as I could tell the two likeliest results for the picks) and decide to stay over the cap by holding onto their cap holds. After making the George trade, they'd have the two firsts, two seconds, MLE, LLE and min contracts to fill out their rotation. I think to a lot of posters, this would seem like a superior scenario. But I think that undervalues Johnson in relation to the rest of the league. That team badly needs competent bench players. I'm going to assume the team drafts Castle and Knecht with the picks just to continue the trend of picking new players every scenario. Knecht adds much-needed shooting and scoring to the bench, but he lacks play-making and defense. Castle has the defense to eventually move into the starting unit, but most of the other things are lack. I'm going to just assume the second-rounders are two-way guys to get them out of the way, because no team that trades multiple firsts for Paul George should be projecting second-rounders as rotation players.

I'm going to go a little out of left field and have Chris Paul sign with the Spurs on a 1-and-1 MLE deal. That's way below his market, but I'm not sure if he would see a better fit out there. For the LLE, the Spurs would sign Mason Plumlee. Hopefully between him and Bassey/Barlow those minutes can be handled. Then bring back Mamu using his EB rights.

Paul, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Castle
George, Knecht, Champangie
Sochan, Mamukelashvili, Cissoko
Wembayama, Plumlee, Bassey

This increased the team's strength on paper a lot, but that bench feels really weak on both sides of the ball. Swapping out Knecht for Holland would mean there's a lot of defensive potential, but he shooting would be a struggle. I'm skeptical that Plumelee that is still a viable center. If you're going to bench Branham to give Castle his starting spot, you may as well trade him. It's easier in my mind to come up with a viable bench with Keldon on the team rather than with him off it.

[Atl Spur]

Pat Williams from chicago is the better sf for us to pursue without giving up so much capital and performing financial gymnastics.

[Ariel]

Graham only has 2.85M guaranteed, by itself that's too little for even a single SRP.

As for Collins, I don't think any of the available free agents are worth the price tag of getting out of his contract this offseason, but moving forward you could trade him at the february trade deadline for some expiring deal, so you're basically asking that team team to take one more year of salary at 18M as opposed to 2 years. Considering that the Spurs got a single SRP for about 7M (Osman + Stevens) last year, then maybe 3 SRPs could do the trick especially if Collins bounces back to the point that he's playable so just overpaid as opposed to dead money.

Another variation of that scenario is taking an expiring who can also be a contributor, so you can pay a little extra but then you're not just burning assets for nothing. One target that made sense to me was Brogdon, but since moving Collins to Portland could be a bad look given his history there, it would probably require a third team taking him and and sending something else to Portland (even if an equally bad contract). Something along the lines of:

Portland sends Brogdon to Spurs, receives an expiring from third team plus 2 SRPs.
Third team sends expiring to Portland and receives Collins + 2/3 SRPs.
Spurs receive Brogdon and gets rid of Collins at the expense of 4/5 SRPs.

Or, if Portland will take that extra year of salary:

Portland sends Brogdon to Spurs, receives an equivalent contract to Collins from third team plus 4/5 SRPs.
Third team sends bad contract to Portland and receives Collins simply because they may have more use for him than whomever it is they're ridding themselves of.
Spurs receive Brogdon and gets rid of Collins at the expense of 4/5 SRPs

Then Spurs would have Bird rights over Brogdon so that they would have max space in '25 and still be able to go over the cap to resign him so that he's not just a 1 year rental.

Of course it doesn't necessarily have to be that specifically, it could be some other player or team, it's just a basic framework to get rid of that extra year that gets in the way of '25 free agency without paying too much and/or getting something in return at least.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Is Butler available? With the shit Riley has been saying, it does make me wonder. I know he is old, but man he is exactly the player I hope to have on our team. Give him a 3 year (team option 3rd) max deal after we trade for him. Heck I would trade both of our picks this year for him

In a heartbeat.

[Chinook]

Graham only has 2.85M guaranteed, by itself that's too little for even a single SRP.

I imagine you understand this, but there is an asymmetry to how partially-guaranteed money is applied. For the Spurs, Graham's deal only counts as the guaranteed portion for matching purposes, but the other team has to be able to take his full contract into space or an exception. Therefore, the Spurs are renting more than $12 Million from the other team. If that team uses a TE, the non-guaranteed portion does not get added back. If they use cap space, they have to avoid making other moves that could drop them below $13 Million until after they complete the trade and waive Graham. Considering the absolute flood of seconds the Spurs have, it's well worth it for them to secure that cap space with a reliable partner rather than shopping the deal around hoping for a lower price.


Considering that the Spurs got a single SRP for about 7M (Osman + Stevens) last year, then maybe 3 SRPs could do the trick especially if Collins bounces back to the point that he's playable so just overpaid as opposed to dead money.

I'm skeptical of this reasoning. There's a massive difference in renting one year of cap space after the market has locked in and renting a year and change before the off-season starts. Yes, it could happen, just like the Spurs took Graham's two remaining years for Richardson and seconds. But the Spurs were deep in a rebuild, fully tanking for Wemby. I don't know if there will be an equivalent situation for Flagg. I don't think the Spurs should wait until 2025 to make moves anyway, so it might be worth it for them to trade the extra value to put Collins in a deal rather than trying to save money at the expense of improving their roster. But only time will tell how PATFO approaches this situation.


Then Spurs would have Bird rights over Brogdon so that they would have max space in '25 and still be able to go over the cap to resign him so that he's not just a 1 year rental.

Brogdan's cap hold is $33 Million. There's no way the Spurs should be planning on keeping that hold on the books in 2025 in order to re-sign Brogdan afterwards. It's hard to imagine dude warrants a deal starting at more than that.

[Chinook]

Is Butler available? With the shit Riley has been saying, it does make me wonder. I know he is old, but man he is exactly the player I hope to have on our team. Give him a 3 year (team option 3rd) max deal after we trade for him. Heck I would trade both of our picks this year for him

Ew, no one in their right mind should want to trade two top-10 picks for Butler. He's a good fit, but this season is showing he may not even be a dark-horse centerpiece anymore. The Spurs have to trade for him with the understanding he's a mentor and not a contending piece, and the value of a mentor is not two firsts from a team that still needs to bring in blue-chip youth.

[spurraider21]

I'm skeptical of this reasoning. There's a massive difference in renting one year of cap space after the market has locked in and renting a year and change before the off-season starts. Yes, it could happen, just like the Spurs took Graham's two remaining years for Richardson and seconds.
ok make it 5 second rounders

we have so many to spare that id rather err on the side of giving them up, even below market value, then having to cash them in with picks. unless someone guaranteed me that our SRPs will all be used on guys willing to take 2 way deals

[Chinook]

ok make it 5 second rounders

we have so many to spare that id rather err on the side of giving them up, even below market value, then having to cash them in with picks. unless someone guaranteed me that our SRPs will all be used on guys willing to take 2 way deals

I don't think adding a second is going to work. In the same way that the Spurs have so many they don't matter, eventually additional seconds on a single deal feel meaningless. If 2025's free agency is worth so much to the Spurs, it might be worth it other teams. That would make 2025 cap space more expensive to buy.

A possibility depending on how the season goes would be trying to take on a huge expiring in exchange for Collins' two-year deal. Simmons comes to mind, but I don't think Brooklyn has much interest encumbering their 2025 salary sheet for similar reasons to SA. There really aren't a lot of horrible contracts ending this year. MAYBE the Bucks can be tricked into exchanging Lopez for Collins or otherwise take Zach back in a wider trade.

[mo7888]

So it looks like the Clippers could S&T George, but they couldn't receive any salary back for him. That certainly makes it harder to match him. It looks like the Clippers could extend-and-trade George if he opts in. That would be a $153.7M/3 deal. The only restriction they'd have then is not being able to take back more salary than they send out. The Spurs would need to send out almost exactly $39 Million to match, though it doesn't all have to go to the Clippers. The easiest way to create this matching salary would be to trade Johnson and Collins, for $35.7 Million total and then to increase Graham's guarantee to $3.3 Million to make up the rest of the salary. Then the Spurs can pay a team to take Collins and trade Johnson and Graham to LAC along with some seconds so the Clips can trade Graham away to save on that tax hit if they so choose or keep the seconds to use later.

What it would take to get off Collins is the biggest question. In the scenario I laid out yesterday, I had the Spurs trading Collins, 5, and the worse of the ATL picks to Atlanta for 10 and Graham, seconds and cash to Detroit. That trade down was necessary to open up the extra cap space. It wouldn't be necessary here, so other ideas could be explored. Or the Clippers could keep Collins in return for getting say the CHI and CHA picks.

Let's assume the Spurs have 6 and 7 (which are as far as I could tell the two likeliest results for the picks) and decide to stay over the cap by holding onto their cap holds. After making the George trade, they'd have the two firsts, two seconds, MLE, LLE and min contracts to fill out their rotation. I think to a lot of posters, this would seem like a superior scenario. But I think that undervalues Johnson in relation to the rest of the league. That team badly needs competent bench players. I'm going to assume the team drafts Castle and Knecht with the picks just to continue the trend of picking new players every scenario. Knecht adds much-needed shooting and scoring to the bench, but he lacks play-making and defense. Castle has the defense to eventually move into the starting unit, but most of the other things are lack. I'm going to just assume the second-rounders are two-way guys to get them out of the way, because no team that trades multiple firsts for Paul George should be projecting second-rounders as rotation players.

I'm going to go a little out of left field and have Chris Paul sign with the Spurs on a 1-and-1 MLE deal. That's way below his market, but I'm not sure if he would see a better fit out there. For the LLE, the Spurs would sign Mason Plumlee. Hopefully between him and Bassey/Barlow those minutes can be handled. Then bring back Mamu using his EB rights.

Paul, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Castle
George, Knecht, Champangie
Sochan, Mamukelashvili, Cissoko
Wembayama, Plumlee, Bassey

This increased the team's strength on paper a lot, but that bench feels really weak on both sides of the ball. Swapping out Knecht for Holland would mean there's a lot of defensive potential, but he shooting would be a struggle. I'm skeptical that Plumelee that is still a viable center. If you're going to bench Branham to give Castle his starting spot, you may as well trade him. It's easier in my mind to come up with a viable bench with Keldon on the team rather than with him off it.

That makes alot more sense to me than trading picks for cap space and signing him out right.

As constructed in that scenario I'd think the team would be looking for a couple buyout candidates to add at the deadline to bolster the bench.

I'm not sure if this is the best path for the team to take per se, but it's gotta be the best path if they want to acquire PG.

[spurraider21]

I don't think adding a second is going to work. In the same way that the Spurs have so many they don't matter, eventually additional seconds on a single deal feel meaningless. If 2025's free agency is worth so much to the Spurs, it might be worth it other teams. That would make 2025 cap space more expensive to buy.

A possibility depending on how the season goes would be trying to take on a huge expiring in exchange for Collins' two-year deal. Simmons comes to mind, but I don't think Brooklyn has much interest encumbering their 2025 salary sheet for similar reasons to SA. There really aren't a lot of horrible contracts ending this year. MAYBE the Bucks can be tricked into exchanging Lopez for Collins or otherwise take Zach back in a wider trade.
8 seconds

[KobesAchilles]

Ew, no one in their right mind should want to trade two top-10 picks for Butler. He's a good fit, but this season is showing he may not even be a dark-horse centerpiece anymore. The Spurs have to trade for him with the understanding he's a mentor and not a contending piece, and the value of a mentor is not two firsts from a team that still needs to bring in blue-chip youth.
I don't know. I still believe he is an elite player. But I'm really pessimistic about our GM. I think he will manage to mess up both picks. I think Wright is very good at making deals. I just don't believe in his ability to scout talent. What would your trade package for Butler be? And not a lowball offer, but one you really expect Riley to consider

[LeBowen]

Butler doesn't care about regular season, we need someone who does.

[Ariel]

I imagine you understand this, but there is an asymmetry to how partially-guaranteed money is applied. For the Spurs, Graham's deal only counts as the guaranteed portion for matching purposes, but the other team has to be able to take his full contract into space or an exception. Therefore, the Spurs are renting more than $12 Million from the other team. If that team uses a TE, the non-guaranteed portion does not get added back. If they use cap space, they have to avoid making other moves that could drop them below $13 Million until after they complete the trade and waive Graham. Considering the absolute flood of seconds the Spurs have, it's well worth it for them to secure that cap space with a reliable partner rather than shopping the deal around hoping for a lower price.
As I recall, that is only for trade matching purposes, but once the trade is completed, then you can waive the player and only the guaranteed portion of the deal becomes dead money. So in this case, yes, you'd have to find a team that can accomodate Grahams ENTIRE salary (12.65M total: 2.85M guaranteed + 9.8M nonguaranteed) but then you waive him / buy him out and only the 2,85M guaranteed become dead money (see Gallinari, Lamar Stevens, even Graham himself if waived). I don't see that as a big problem that would restrict the options the Spurs have.

I'm skeptical of this reasoning. There's a massive difference in renting one year of cap space after the market has locked in and renting a year and change before the off-season starts. Yes, it could happen, just like the Spurs took Graham's two remaining years for Richardson and seconds. But the Spurs were deep in a rebuild, fully tanking for Wemby. I don't know if there will be an equivalent situation for Flagg. I don't think the Spurs should wait until 2025 to make moves anyway, so it might be worth it for them to trade the extra value to put Collins in a deal rather than trying to save money at the expense of improving their roster. But only time will tell how PATFO approaches this situation.
You're basically asking a team to take one more year of salary for picks, For reference, Dallas took Richaun Holmes from Sacramento in exchange for the 25th pick (Olivier-Maxence Prosper), it was slightly more salary (about 13M annually) but for TWO seasons, and if you take into consideration the projected raise of the cap, Collins salary in 2 years will roughly be equivalent to that amount 2 years ago. And in the scenario I laid out the third team would only be asked to take on ONE extra year. So I'd think if a late first was enough to rid you of 2 years of such a contract, then a few 2nds could be enough to get a team to add one more year of (roughly) similar salary. There are always rebuilding teams. And in any case, I'd NEVER put a lottery pick on the table to rid yourself of a mid salary, short term deal like Collins. Seems like a gross mismanagement of assets.

Brogdan's cap hold is $33 Million. There's no way the Spurs should be planning on keeping that hold on the books in 2025 in order to re-sign Brogdan afterwards. It's hard to imagine dude warrants a deal starting at more than that.
Yeah, this one I'd give to you. I didn't realize Brogdon's cap hold was THAT large. Definitely lowers the price I'd be willing to pay if there are viable free agents for next offseason (Donovan Mitchell, Lauri Markkanen, Derrick White, etc) so that you can safely renounce him without regret if necessary.

[TD 21]

I imagine you understand this, but there is an asymmetry to how partially-guaranteed money is applied.

I didn't bother reading the rest of this, but for future reference, this is essentially what I mean when I say something like "I follow the league closely".

It's not for the nefarious reasons you infer, but to say with the exception of certain CBA minutia, presume I already know or understand.

[R. DeMurre]

The more I look at it, the more I think that a few minor adjustments are all that will be done outside of the draft. There are no splurge-worthy free agents, so I look for the Spurs to search out bargains. The two I'm liking at the moment are Delon Wright and Goga Bitadze. Wright has size, defense, and combo guard skills, and Goga has illustrated he can be an impactful back up center. Neither breaks the bank.

[Chinook]

Well now that we know the picks the Spurs have, we can see the Spurs have $131 Million in committed (but not necessarily guaranteed) salary for next year. With the MLE, LLE and cap holds, that means the Spurs are currently over next year's cap. They're currently looking at $117 Million in guaranteed salary. It gives them right around $24 Million in cap space they can make without trading away or stretching anyone. If they're going to waive Graham, I think it's irresponsible to not pay someone else to eat the guaranteed salary. If they do that and stretch/waive Collins, they would JUST open up enough room to sign a first-tier max like Quickley or Claxton. Seeing as those guys are RFAs on top of their questionable fit, I don't think that's the best way to go. I don't think many scenarios justify paying Collins $7 Million a year for five years to not play for them. It does mean with a bit of effort the Spurs can pitch their potential for cap space to make a special deal work out. I've spilled enough ink talking about why that's not the ideal route to go in my mind. But they have that option.

[Chinook]

I didn't bother reading the rest of this, but for future reference, this is essentially what I mean when I say something like "I follow the league closely".

It's not for the nefarious reasons you infer, but to say with the exception of certain CBA minutia, presume I already know or understand.

I'm not going to open up that can of worms again, Teeds. Just as I didn't post my long reply to the last exchange we had, I am not going to post the long response I had this time. All I'll say is that I'm not going to stop talking about stuff like this if what you said gives me the impression that you don't understand the situation in the same way I do. I don't talk about that to be condescending. I do it because I'm taking it seriously enough to dig to the roots of the argument and explain where I think the disagreement comes from.

[MultiTroll]

FFS bring them back.

A look back at the Silver Dancers, a Spurs staple for more than three decades (mysanantonio.com) (https://www.mysanantonio.com/lifestyle/article/A-look-back-at-the-Silver-Dancers-a-Spurs-staple-12941196.php)

[scott]

Well now that we know the picks the Spurs have, we can see the Spurs have $131 Million in committed (but not necessarily guaranteed) salary for next year. With the MLE, LLE and cap holds, that means the Spurs are currently over next year's cap. They're currently looking at $117 Million in guaranteed salary. It gives them right around $24 Million in cap space they can make without trading away or stretching anyone. If they're going to waive Graham, I think it's irresponsible to not pay someone else to eat the guaranteed salary. If they do that and stretch/waive Collins, they would JUST open up enough room to sign a first-tier max like Quickley or Claxton. Seeing as those guys are RFAs on top of their questionable fit, I don't think that's the best way to go. I don't think many scenarios justify paying Collins $7 Million a year for five years to not play for them. It does mean with a bit of effort the Spurs can pitch their potential for cap space to make a special deal work out. I've spilled enough ink talking about why that's not the ideal route to go in my mind. But they have that option.

At this point I think we just gotta roll with Collins until such time his contract is needed as ballast for some other trade. Same with Keldon, imvho

[TD 21]

I'm not going to open up that can of worms again, Teeds. Just as I didn't post my long reply to the last exchange we had, I am not going to post the long response I had this time. All I'll say is that I'm not going to stop talking about stuff like this if what you said gives me the impression that you don't understand the situation in the same way I do. I don't talk about that to be condescending. I do it because I'm taking it seriously enough to dig to the roots of the argument and explain where I think the disagreement comes from.

You're still not getting this. I meant in a general sense, you don't need to tell me what the financial situation is on a team or the contractual status of a player or whether they're having a good season or are held in good stead by their organization/fans, etc.

I'm well aware of all of that and I don't say that to be condescending or pat myself on the back.

[Chinook]

As I recall, that is only for trade matching purposes, but once the trade is completed, then you can waive the player and only the guaranteed portion of the deal becomes dead money. So in this case, yes, you'd have to find a team that can accomodate Grahams ENTIRE salary (12.65M total: 2.85M guaranteed + 9.8M nonguaranteed) but then you waive him / buy him out and only the 2,85M guaranteed become dead money (see Gallinari, Lamar Stevens, even Graham himself if waived). I don't see that as a big problem that would restrict the options the Spurs have.

Teams have to have the salary space to take the whole contract, which limits the teams who can do that deal and thus drives up the price. For teams that have trade exceptions, they'd have to be willing to spend the whole amount, even though they are only will take the hit for the guaranteed amount. Teams also aren't guaranteed to have this as their first trade of the off-season. The idea that they could just waive Graham and then have the space again still relies on that timing working with other deals. If Graham were only a $2.8M/1 deal, then there'd only need to be cash to make it work. But he's not, so the Spurs need to pay more. Whether it's multiple seconds is its own matter, but I don't think it's sound to just evaluate the guaranteed salary.


You're basically asking a team to take one more year of salary for picks,

You're again overlooking the practical difference between selling cap space during the off-season and selling it in advance. The Mavs got a first for Holmes using a newly minted TE from the Bertans-Wallace/Lively trade. That was all done during the draft to immediately get the Mavs players they wanted. It wasn't done during the season when Dallas had no idea which pieces they were getting. During an off-season a team might take Collins as an expiring for cheap after not finding anything better to do with their space. But during the deadline, the team wouldn't have a chance to explore the market to see if they could get more value (not unlike how Dallas got a first for absorbing less money than the seconds going for Collins in your scenario). Timing changes value. Obviously I don't know if a team would take on Collins' second year for only seconds. Hell, on RGM someone proposed the Spurs and Bucks swap Collins and Branham for Lopez. But there's a real difference between trading for one year in June/July and trading for a year-and-a-half in January or February, even if the financial commitment is the same.

[The Truth #6]

If the Spurs get a decent point guard/Dillingham there might be just enough flashes to see if Keldon's game looks different playing alongside such a player. He's pulled his game back and looks lost in the process, but someone collapsing the defense could resurrect, so to speak, his still young career.

[RC_Drunkford]

I can't wait to see Pop play a Collins/Keldon/Branham/Dillingham line up. Then call time out cause they can't guard anybody, yell at them and trot out the same line up again.

[SpurSpike]

I can't wait to see Pop play a Collins/Keldon/Branham/Dillingham line up. Then call time out cause they can't guard anybody, yell at them and trot out the same line up again.

If Spurs get Dilly they should try trading Branham this off season.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

My ideal off season:
1. Draft Dillingham and either Holland, Williams or Castle.
2. Sign Chris Paul to a mid level-ish deal for 2 years
3. Sign Nic Batum to a one year deal
4. Trade a 2nd round pick(s) to Memphis for Luke Kennard. I think the Griz are going to cut him outright to avoid tax, and they might as well get something for him.

That would give the Spurs a dynamic scorer/shooter at PG, an upside defensive wing, veteran leadership/mentoring for said PG and upside wing, and much needed outside shooting. If they could squeeze in another big (or keep Bassey healthy), that would pretty much check off all of my boxes.

[LeBowen]

What would be the ideal, realistic win now scenario?
Keep both 2024 picks.

Draft Castle and Knecht.
Collins+picks for Markkanen.
Get Patrick Williams or Oubre in FA.
Get a backup big rim protector in FA. Claxton would be ideal if he's willing to come off the bench. If not, one of the veterans.

Keep all the Hawks picks and 2025 Spurs pick in Markkanen trade.
If they value Keldon, use him.

If not, have Keldon, Sochan, Devin and all the leftover 2026 and onwards picks at the ready if there's a chance for a superstar trade.

Castle-Devin-FA-Markkanen-Wemby
Tre-Knecht-Keldon-Sochan-FA

Should be enough for a play-in spot.

I'd like one of Naz Reid, Herb Jones or Trey Murphy, but they won't be available.
Bridges would also be an option, but Nets are asking for too much and he's turning 28 before the season starts.

[Dverde]

Derrick Jones Jr. please

[Chinook]

So who would folks replace Keldon with as the team's sixth man? I have seen multiple trade ideas where the Spurs basically get rid of Johnson almost as a way to add value to SA's ledger. I've said it before, but I don't think there's an upgrade to his role in the draft or free agency. On a declining contract Johnson is basically getting 133 percent of the MLE over the rest of his deal. I don't think trading him away should be an option the Spurs explore much at all this year, but even in the few cases where it makes sense, the Spurs should legitimately have a plan on how to replace him. Despite the talk of how replaceable Keldon is, he's a top-10 Spur in the post-Kawhi era. I know that seems like a low bar, but we're still talking about six years and dozens of players passing through.

[scott]

So who would folks replace Keldon with as the team's sixth man? I have seen multiple trade ideas where the Spurs basically get rid of Johnson almost as a way to add value to SA's ledger. I've said it before, but I don't think there's an upgrade to his role in the draft or free agency. On a declining contract Johnson is basically getting 133 percent of the MLE over the rest of his deal. I don't think trading him away should be an option the Spurs explore much at all this year, but even in the few cases where it makes sense, the Spurs should legitimately have a plan on how to replace him. Despite the talk of how replaceable Keldon is, he's a top-10 Spur in the post-Kawhi era. I know that seems like a low bar, but we're still talking about six years and dozens of players passing through.

IMO, there is a clear and obvious upgrade to this role who happens to be a FA this year, but will likely cost a little more than Keldon, and that is Malik Monk. He's already obviously quite proven in this role (5th and then 2nd in 6OTY voting in the last two seasons), and it a more fluid scorer than Johnson. Keldon, despite putting up scoring numbers, seems to labor to get his, whereas Monk's seem to come more naturally in the flow of the game.

Personally, I like a Cam Thomas-like player as a potential ideal 6th man. With that said, I don't think Cam is worth going and expending considerable assets to acquire (but would be fun in a Bridges-Thomas-Cam Johnson mega deal to completely shake up both rosters).

I just don't know how well Keldon really fits in the style the Spurs want to play. He was part of a very productive closing lineup for the Spurs, but there were times when paired with Wemby and Vassell that seemed to really disrupt the flow of the offense, and he's of course not very useful on defense either.

The Spurs seem hopeful that Branham could fill that 6th man scorer role, but the jury is still out. If the Spurs draft Dillingham, he could be that 6th man scorer in his rookie year before taking over the starting gig next year. If they take Holland, I also see him as a potential contender for that role (and a direct replacement for Keldon's minutes).

In the end, seems like the desire to move Keldon is less about Keldon the player or person and more about his fit and the desire to capitalize on his value while he still has some (his contract helps in that regard).

[spurraider21]

second malik monk

[CGD]

So who would folks replace Keldon with as the team's sixth man? I have seen multiple trade ideas where the Spurs basically get rid of Johnson almost as a way to add value to SA's ledger. I've said it before, but I don't think there's an upgrade to his role in the draft or free agency. On a declining contract Johnson is basically getting 133 percent of the MLE over the rest of his deal. I don't think trading him away should be an option the Spurs explore much at all this year, but even in the few cases where it makes sense, the Spurs should legitimately have a plan on how to replace him. Despite the talk of how replaceable Keldon is, he's a top-10 Spur in the post-Kawhi era. I know that seems like a low bar, but we're still talking about six years and dozens of players passing through.

I think it's foolish to trade him for just the sake of it. But, he has value in his own right not least of which is because of his contract's structure, so in my view it would be equally unwise not to explore using it to upgrade the roster. But no rush yet -- I think the window for doing that starts this summer and goes through Feb 2026. It also would help if he has a better year than the last campaign to bolster his value so more.

[CGD]

second malik monk

The Magic will throw a stupid bag at him. No interest in playing that game for Malik freakin Monk

[mo7888]

The Magic will throw a stupid bag at him. No interest in playing that game for Malik freakin Monk

They've been linked to him, Klay, D'Lo and even PG13. They can't get them all..

[scott]

The die hard Kings fan I work with seems think something around $17MM/yr is what the Kings will offer, fwiw

[mo7888]

The die hard Kings fan I work with seems think something around $17MM/yr is what the Kings will offer, fwiw

I think that's around the max they are able to offer...he'll get more in FA..

[Chinook]

IMO, there is a clear and obvious upgrade to this role who happens to be a FA this year, but will likely cost a little more than Keldon, and that is Malik Monk. He's already obviously quite proven in this role (5th and then 2nd in 6OTY voting in the last two seasons), and it a more fluid scorer than Johnson. Keldon, despite putting up scoring numbers, seems to labor to get his, whereas Monk's seem to come more naturally in the flow of the game.

Personally, I like a Cam Thomas-like player as a potential ideal 6th man. With that said, I don't think Cam is worth going and expending considerable assets to acquire (but would be fun in a Bridges-Thomas-Cam Johnson mega deal to completely shake up both rosters).

I just don't know how well Keldon really fits in the style the Spurs want to play. He was part of a very productive closing lineup for the Spurs, but there were times when paired with Wemby and Vassell that seemed to really disrupt the flow of the offense, and he's of course not very useful on defense either.

The Spurs seem hopeful that Branham could fill that 6th man scorer role, but the jury is still out. If the Spurs draft Dillingham, he could be that 6th man scorer in his rookie year before taking over the starting gig next year. If they take Holland, I also see him as a potential contender for that role (and a direct replacement for Keldon's minutes).

In the end, seems like the desire to move Keldon is less about Keldon the player or person and more about his fit and the desire to capitalize on his value while he still has some (his contract helps in that regard).

For where the Spurs are and where some of us want the Spurs to be, I think having a forward at the sixth-man role is a much better fit than having a combo-guard. As I've said before, Keldon is a good fit with Vassell, Sochan and whomever comes in to play SF. He can fit with any two of them. Yes, he has to learn to be a sixth man, and everyone has to figure out how to balance their scoring efforts to be best for the team. That will be true if a guy like PG is brought in or if a guy like Dillingham is drafted (or both, ideally). A sixth man cannot be a passive shooter, because his main role is to be a go-to scorer off the bench. Sure ideally, a guy can be Manu and turn the bench into a supercharged unit. But that's not really the standard a player should be held to, in my opinion.

I'm not against Monk, though I would want them to more directly address the point-guard position if they go that route. But the idea should be to bring him in to compliment the top guys on the team already, not to replace some of them -- ESPECIALLY if he's going to make more money. Like maybe if it's a direct S&T where the Kings or a third team gets Johnson and the Spurs get to keep their MLE, I could see it. Then the MLE immediately has to be used to get a replacement for Keldon. It's also more likely than not in this case that the Spurs would still have that starting SF spot open, so the replacing that would likely come first. It's doable, but it's tight and would involve either a ring-chaser coming over or the Spurs to have developmental luck. On that note, while it's not ridiculous to want to give Branham or Holland the room to grow into the role, it's a questionable strategy unless the Spurs are okay with not winning much again this upcoming season. Sixth men are important, and leaving that spot up to chance is possibly even more worrying than drafting Holland or Williams and hoping that solves the SF question right away.

[Raven]

I think that's around the max they are able to offer...he'll get more in FA..

who's paying for that tbh

[mo7888]

who's paying for that tbh

Who's paying more than $17M? Quite a few teams will pay 19-22M... probably including us..

[scott]

For where the Spurs are and where some of us want the Spurs to be, I think having a forward at the sixth-man role is a much better fit than having a combo-guard. As I've said before, Keldon is a good fit with Vassell, Sochan and whomever comes in to play SF. He can fit with any two of them. Yes, he has to learn to be a sixth man, and everyone has to figure out how to balance their scoring efforts to be best for the team. That will be true if a guy like PG is brought in or if a guy like Dillingham is drafted (or both, ideally). A sixth man cannot be a passive shooter, because his main role is to be a go-to scorer off the bench. Sure ideally, a guy can be Manu and turn the bench into a supercharged unit. But that's not really the standard a player should be held to, in my opinion.

I'm not against Monk, though I would want them to more directly address the point-guard position if they go that route. But the idea should be to bring him in to compliment the top guys on the team already, not to replace some of them -- ESPECIALLY if he's going to make more money. Like maybe if it's a direct S&T where the Kings or a third team gets Johnson and the Spurs get to keep their MLE, I could see it. Then the MLE immediately has to be used to get a replacement for Keldon. It's also more likely than not in this case that the Spurs would still have that starting SF spot open, so the replacing that would likely come first. It's doable, but it's tight and would involve either a ring-chaser coming over or the Spurs to have developmental luck. On that note, while it's not ridiculous to want to give Branham or Holland the room to grow into the role, it's a questionable strategy unless the Spurs are okay with not winning much again this upcoming season. Sixth men are important, and leaving that spot up to chance is possibly even more worrying than drafting Holland or Williams and hoping that solves the SF question right away.

I definitely agree that Monk should only be a consideration as a high-end 6th man (which maybe it not what we need to focus on right now), not as a potential starter. To me, he'd only be replacing Branham. I also think he could fit just find with Keldon and that Keldon may benefit from some more help on the bench unit and that could alleviate some of the labored, borderline-chucker behavior we see from him at times. In the event Keldon is moved, I still go back to Gordon Hayward as a potential replacement in the SF rotation (in this respect, I haven't moved much from my original ideal offseason scenario). This all assumes Hayward isn't washed. He was putting up numbers to start the season in CHA but hasn't played much since moving to OKC.

Even now knowing our draft position, my ideal draft scenario hasn't changed much (though I'd now prefer a combo of Buzelis and Holland versus what I originally posited with Risacher and Buzelis). But to mix it up, here is a scenario in which we go Dillingham at 4 and Holland at 8 (which I think he ONLY makes it to if we take Dilly at 4. If we take Buzelis at 4, I believe Holland gets taken before he gets to 8. I think we could possibly get Buzelis at 4 and Dilly at 8, but it becomes slightly riskier given Topic's sitation, someone may want to jump up to take a PG ahead of us at 8).

So, draft Dilly at 4, Holland at 8.

Sign Malik Monk.

Resign Mamu and Cedi.

PG: Tre/Dilly/Blake (Dilly eventually taking over the starting role)
SG: Vassell/Monk/Bran
SF: Holland/Johnson/Champ (predicated on the Spurs wanting to keep Keldon in a bench role)
PF: Sochan/Cedi/Mamu
C: Wemby/Collins/Barlow (you know I'm president of the Bassey fan club, but I think those knees have other plans)

No draft capital expended, Johnson and Collins salaries still available to be used as trade ballast. Sidy the biggest casualty here. Second unit defense will be very, very bad.

Edit: I would like this a lot more if it was Buzelis instead of Holland, not only because I have Matas rated higher but because I think it's a better fit here. This SL has shooting problems. Because of that, maybe you move Keldon back into the SL (this is our closing unit last year which was actually very good) and Holland is your backup SF to add a little defense to the equation.

[Chinook]

Who's paying more than $17M? Quite a few teams will pay 19-22M... probably including us..

If the Spurs go the route of paying to get off Graham's guarantee but keeps everyone else, they could bring to bear $22.4 Million in cap space. That gives them a max offer of $96.3M/4. I'm going to assume the Spurs draft Castle and Williams because I don't want to think too hard about a mock draft right now. Then sign Derrick Jones to the room exception

Jones, Castle, Wesley
Vassell, Monk, Branham
Jones, Johnson, Champangie
Sochan, Williams, Cissoko
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

You're probably forced to just be okay starting Williams and bringing back Osman or Mamu to play the backup four, but this might sort of work out. That's an interesting bench as is, with a lot of size and a couple of good scorers. Maybe if they can convince the right ring-chaser or disillusioned vet to come over, it would be a stronger unit altogether.

[spurraider21]

If the Spurs go the route of paying to get off Graham's guarantee but keeps everyone else, they could bring to bear $22.4 Million in cap space. That gives them a max offer of $96.3M/4. I'm going to assume the Spurs draft Castle and Williams because I don't want to think too hard about a mock draft right now. Then sign Derrick Jones to the room exception

Jones, Castle, Wesley
Vassell, Monk, Branham
Jones, Johnson, Champangie
Sochan, Williams, Cissoko
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

You're probably forced to just be okay starting Williams and bringing back Osman or Mamu to play the backup four, but this might sort of work out. That's an interesting bench as is, with a lot of size and a couple of good scorers. Maybe if they can convince the right ring-chaser or disillusioned vet to come over, it would be a stronger unit altogether.
also works with the "pOsiTiOnLeSs" stuff too, since neither Castle nor Monk are pure point guards but can do point guard-ish things while having solid (monk) to good (castle) size for the position. wemby's late season passing and hub ability opens up a lot of interesting doors at the PG position (part of why i think Sheppard could get by at PG if he ends up making the team, and a big part of why i've soured on Topic as well)

[mo7888]

If the Spurs go the route of paying to get off Graham's guarantee but keeps everyone else, they could bring to bear $22.4 Million in cap space. That gives them a max offer of $96.3M/4. I'm going to assume the Spurs draft Castle and Williams because I don't want to think too hard about a mock draft right now. Then sign Derrick Jones to the room exception

Jones, Castle, Wesley
Vassell, Monk, Branham
Jones, Johnson, Champangie
Sochan, Williams, Cissoko
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

You're probably forced to just be okay starting Williams and bringing back Osman or Mamu to play the backup four, but this might sort of work out. That's an interesting bench as is, with a lot of size and a couple of good scorers. Maybe if they can convince the right ring-chaser or disillusioned vet to come over, it would be a stronger unit altogether.

I think it's a pretty good palate to work from and gives some interesting options for more moves down the road.

[scott]

Re: Monk, Spotrac talks about him extensively in their King's offseason preview today: https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2234/2024-nba-offseason-financial-previews#SAC

Here's the main takeaway:


Of the cap space teams, Monk would be immediately plug-and-play for any of them. Outside of maybe the Utah Jazz, who already have Jordan Clarkson and Collin Sexton playing the role he would play, Monk is a wonderful fit with any team. It’s very easy to envision the Philadelphia 76ers, Orlando Magic, Oklahoma City Thunder, San Antonio Spurs or Detroit Pistons offering Monk a deal that starts north of $20 million and has an AAV up to $25 million per season.

[Chinook]

also works with the "pOsiTiOnLeSs" stuff too, since neither Castle nor Monk are pure point guards but can do point guard-ish things while having solid (monk) to good (castle) size for the position. wemby's late season passing and hub ability opens up a lot of interesting doors at the PG position (part of why i think Sheppard could get by at PG if he ends up making the team, and a big part of why i've soured on Topic as well)


I think it's a pretty good palate to work from and gives some interesting options for more moves down the road.

I'm glad it turned out well. I do just wonder if there's a good room exception candidate to complete that rotation. The full room exception is $25.2M/3. I don't know of a good forward who'd want to take that deal. That Spurs team could be pretty good, but they wouldn't be "ring-chaser" good.

[mo7888]

I'm glad it turned out well. I do just wonder if there's a good room exception candidate to complete that rotation. The full room exception is $25.2M/3. I don't know of a good forward who'd want to take that deal. That Spurs team could be pretty good, but they wouldn't be "ring-chaser" good.

Maybe Oubre, Hauser, Hayward, or O'Neale? They might have better offers, but I'd start there.

I'd be happy with that roster next year. We'd make the playoff and I think compete in the first rd....maybe make the second with a favorable draw... then build on that next summer...

[Chinook]

Maybe Oubre, Hauser, Hayward, or O'Neale? They might have better offers, but I'd start there.

I'd be happy with that roster next year. We'd make the playoff and I think compete in the first rd....maybe make the second with a favorable draw... then build on that next summer...

I'd like a defensive SF, but Oubre could make sense on this roster where Jones isn't much of a scorer.
Hauser seems to be under contract for next season. While that's what it is, it is a reminder that the room exception can be used in trades now.
Hayward seems shaky. I like the idea of the vet leadership, but I'm not sure if he's demonstrating that.
O'Neale has been the guy I've plugged into scenarios. I don't know if he's a great fit next to Sochan, but if we're talking about him coming off the bench, there are other guys who might be able to do that.

If the Spurs draft the right forward, maybe this is mostly moot. Jones, Monk, Vassell, Castle, Holland/Williams, Johnson, Sochan, Wembanyama, and Collins looks like it could be a solid nine-man rotation. That's one of the virtues of keeping Johnson as the swing forward. If the Spurs were the draft the right forward, that 10th spot can be a lot of cheap players like Mamu or KBD or even one of the second-rounders if they impress. Hell, there are forwards playing overseas who might want to come over to the NBA like former NBA player Dzanan Musa.

[mo7888]

I'd like a defensive SF, but Oubre could make sense on this roster where Jones isn't much of a scorer.
Hauser seems to be under contract for next season. While that's what it is, it is a reminder that the room exception can be used in trades now.
Hayward seems shaky. I like the idea of the vet leadership, but I'm not sure if he's demonstrating that.
O'Neale has been the guy I've plugged into scenarios. I don't know if he's a great fit next to Sochan, but if we're talking about him coming off the bench, there are other guys who might be able to do that.

If the Spurs draft the right forward, maybe this is mostly moot. Jones, Monk, Vassell, Castle, Holland/Williams, Johnson, Sochan, Wembanyama, and Collins looks like it could be a solid nine-man rotation. That's one of the virtues of keeping Johnson as the swing forward. If the Spurs were the draft the right forward, that 10th spot can be a lot of cheap players like Mamu or KBD or even one of the second-rounders if they impress. Hell, there are forwards playing overseas who might want to come over to the NBA like former NBA player Dzanan Musa.

On Hauser I just looked at the hoopshype fa list for this summer. I guess he could be restricted or they just have him listed wrong. I kind of pulled guys of different strengths because who knows who we draft. It could be Matas and Sheppard and that would shift the mix a bit, but the fundamental idea here is solid and can be adjusted as needed.

As for Keldon, I'd trade him if I thought the deal was right, but most of the trade ideas don't really make sense. It's almost like giving him away for cap space and a roster spot. He's fine where he is and his value isn't going down next year, so play it out and use him when we get to the point of making win-now moves geared toward championship intentions. We've got time there...

[DPG21920]

I'd like a defensive SF, but Oubre could make sense on this roster where Jones isn't much of a scorer.
Hauser seems to be under contract for next season. While that's what it is, it is a reminder that the room exception can be used in trades now.
Hayward seems shaky. I like the idea of the vet leadership, but I'm not sure if he's demonstrating that.
O'Neale has been the guy I've plugged into scenarios. I don't know if he's a great fit next to Sochan, but if we're talking about him coming off the bench, there are other guys who might be able to do that.

If the Spurs draft the right forward, maybe this is mostly moot. Jones, Monk, Vassell, Castle, Holland/Williams, Johnson, Sochan, Wembanyama, and Collins looks like it could be a solid nine-man rotation. That's one of the virtues of keeping Johnson as the swing forward. If the Spurs were the draft the right forward, that 10th spot can be a lot of cheap players like Mamu or KBD or even one of the second-rounders if they impress. Hell, there are forwards playing overseas who might want to come over to the NBA like former NBA player Dzanan Musa.

Patrick Williams?

[DPG21920]

Off season:

Trade Keldon for Ivey

Sign and Trade for Patrick Williams or sign in FA if Bulls let him go.

Draft Holland + Dillingham or Holland + Castle

Start: Ivey + Vassell + Patrick Williams + Sochan + Wemby

Bench of: Tre + Castle/Dillingham + Holland + Champagnie + Collins

Good mix of youth, size and while shooting is an issue some, defense should be MUCH improved alongside versatile lineups

[Pauleta14]

So who would folks replace Keldon with as the team's sixth man? I have seen multiple trade ideas where the Spurs basically get rid of Johnson almost as a way to add value to SA's ledger. I've said it before, but I don't think there's an upgrade to his role in the draft or free agency. On a declining contract Johnson is basically getting 133 percent of the MLE over the rest of his deal. I don't think trading him away should be an option the Spurs explore much at all this year, but even in the few cases where it makes sense, the Spurs should legitimately have a plan on how to replace him. Despite the talk of how replaceable Keldon is, he's a top-10 Spur in the post-Kawhi era. I know that seems like a low bar, but we're still talking about six years and dozens of players passing through.

I don't think KJ likes coming off the bench and he lacks playmaking abilities (or willigness) for the role. I'd be better for him to be traded imo

We can find better and Monk is a great example if he's interested by the role (not a given)

[Pauleta14]

Off season:

Trade Keldon for Ivey

Sign and Trade for Patrick Williams or sign in FA if Bulls let him go.

Draft Holland + Dillingham or Holland + Castle

Start: Ivey + Vassell + Patrick Williams + Sochan + Wemby

Bench of: Tre + Castle/Dillingham + Holland + Champagnie + Collins

Good mix of youth, size and while shooting is an issue some, defense should be MUCH improved alongside versatile lineups

PATFO has to bring some veterans experience + we can't do another season with only Collins as backup big

[Chinook]

Patrick Williams?

For the room exception?

[Chinook]

I like Ivey, but I wouldn't trade for him as anything other than a flier. I wouldn't trade my sixth man for a flier, nor would a flier be all that interesting if I drafted a PG.

Keldon for Ivey only makes sense in niche circumstances. Where the Spurs have a max player waiting to sign, spent their picks on wings and have a sixth man waiting to sign the room exception. It doesn't seem to make sense to do so on order to drop a bag on Patrick Williams.

[DPG21920]

For the room exception?

Haha - no. To replace Keldon money if we can swing a deal that helps the team there (I agree, Im not trying to trade Keldon for sake of it but I do think hes the one that can get us value where needed)

[DPG21920]

I like Ivey, but I wouldn't trade for him as anything other than a flier. I wouldn't trade my sixth man for a flier, nor would a flier be all that interesting if I drafted a PG.

Keldon for Ivey only makes sense in niche circumstances. Where the Spurs have a max player waiting to sign, spent their picks on wings and have a sixth man waiting to sign the room exception. It doesn't seem to make sense to do so on order to drop a bag on Patrick Williams.

Fair enough - I think Pat Will gives you as a starter what Keldon could not; better 3PT shooting alongside defensive upside. Ivey gives you a shot at a rookie scale upside guard that has a many flaws as any guard in this draft IMO and now you can draft wings

And in my scenario, Holland is the Keldon replacement for now. Except he has defensive chops but still ability to be a 20PPG scorer (not now, but over time and hes very young).

[LeBowen]

Regardless of the names, there are glaring issues that need to be dealth with, in order of priority:
1. Backup rim protector, Collins has to go, not even up for discussion.
2. A starting point guard. Or point forward, which doesn't look likely.
3. Point of attack defender.
4. At least two more 3-D perimeter players.

Obviously one player can fill multiple needs.

I see the rotation as two primary ballhandlers, two bigs and the rest is perimeter players in various roles.

point guard/Tre
Wemby/backup rim protector

And then 5 or 6 perimeter players.
Devin is a guaranteed starter, Jeremy will be one of those players, everything else is up in the air.
Champagnie and Branham probably stay in the rotation, meaning that we need 2 more perimeter players.
A rookie and Keldon if he doesn't get traded.

[Bellboy]

Buzelis, Edey, sign Tre Jones brother

[scott]

Regardless of the names, there are glaring issues that need to be dealth with, in order of priority:
1. Backup rim protector, Collins has to go, not even up for discussion.
2. A starting point guard. Or point forward, which doesn't look likely.
3. Point of attack defender.
4. At least two more 3-D perimeter players.

Obviously one player can fill multiple needs.

I see the rotation as two primary ballhandlers, two bigs and the rest is perimeter players in various roles.

point guard/Tre
Wemby/backup rim protector

And then 5 or 6 perimeter players.
Devin is a guaranteed starter, Jeremy will be one of those players, everything else is up in the air.
Champagnie and Branham probably stay in the rotation, meaning that we need 2 more perimeter players.
A rookie and Keldon if he doesn't get traded.

I do not disagree with the assessment of Collins, but I do think we should all come to grips with the fact that he'll be here unless going out as ballast in a trade for another big name. I can't see a scenario where the Spurs pay someone else to eat his deal.

[JH22]

What about signing Immanuel Quickley to a max deal offer sheet? I doubt Toronto can match.

Then flip Keldon Johnson and maybe Branham to Boston for Derrick White.

Then draft two wings in Ron Holland at 4OA and Dalton Knecht 8OA

C- Victor Wembanyama / Zach Collins
PF- Jeremy Sochan
SF- Ron Holland / Dalton Knecht / Julian Champagne
SG- Devin Vassell / Derrick White
PG- Immanuel Quickley / Tre Jones

[scott]

What about signing Immanuel Quickley to a max deal offer sheet? I doubt Toronto can match.

Then flip Keldon Johnson and maybe Branham to Boston for Derrick White.

Then draft two wings in Ron Holland at 4OA and Dalton Knecht 8OA

C- Victor Wembanyama / Zach Collins
PF- Jeremy Sochan
SF- Ron Holland / Dalton Knecht / Julian Champagne
SG- Devin Vassell / Derrick White
PG- Immanuel Quickley / Tre Jones

Ignoring whether or not Quickly is worth the max (imo, he isn't anywhere close), we don't have the cap space to offer anyone the max. Something around 4/70 seems about right for Quickly, imho.

I also think Boston laughs at you and hangs up the phone with that offer.

[pad300]

All right, I'm not sure this is ideal, but call this looking at weirder possibilities:

The PATFO decides now is the time ...

Pre-draft: Trade for Markkanen from Utah... (with a verbal deal on an extension). Markkanen for 2025 SAS 1st (Top 3 protected), 2025 Chi 1st (assorted protections), 2025 CHA 1st (assorted protections), 2027 ATL 1st (unprotected), Graham, Branham

SAS trades #4 to Portland for 7&14

Drafts Topic (falls to #7 because of injuries, picked because he might just be the best player in the whole draft), Devin Carter (#8, he might be Derrick White 2.0), and Edy (#14, a gamble on him being workable.)

Players: Carter, Jones, Wesley, Topic, Vassel, Sochan, Markkannen, Wemby, Edey, Keldon, Champagnie, Barlow, Cissoko, Zach Collins
Things left undefined: 2 second round picks, 1 empty roster spots, 3 two-way spots, and I think we would have the full MLE and the room exception to spend... Also we have bird rights to Mamu and Cedi.


Starting Lineup
PG - Devin Carter
SG - Vassel
SF- Sochan
PF - Markkannen
C- Wemby
The big question with this lineup is can Carter provide enough creation at PG.

Backups
PG - Jones/Topic/Wesley
SG - Topic/Champagnie /Cissoko
SF- Keldon/Champagnie /Cissoko
PF - Barlow/Keldon
C - Edey/Collins

[Splits]

Trade #4 plus whatever 2nds and the 25 CHA pick for a 3&D wing
Take Knecht or BPA at #8
Sign DBust
Fuck around in the trade market, cherry if you can find something that upgrades Keldon for a stretch 4 without sending out more than 1 future FRP. Don't care about all the other trash Branham/Wesley/Graham to be included
Resign Osman if you have the cap space or an exception that fits

[poopbox]

Now that we know our picks.

Trade Keldon and 8 for Ingram.

Draft a point guard at 4.

Sign a veteran wing player who can get Julian minutes, which should be backup minutes with Ingram here.

[rankingtear]

The players who have +net with Wemby since the rotation has settled.

Tre
Devin
Sochan
Keldon
Malaki ( haters gonna hate )

Mamu ( small sample )
Cissoko ( microscopic sample )

Keep all of the above.

Reduce or downgrade center rotation.
Just straight up waive Wesley ( catastrophic net )

Draft guys who can play with Wemby. inverted PNR guards, ball screen wings, jumbo connectors.
Preference is the ball screen wing in Knecht and the inverted PNR guard in Carter.

And most importantly don't trade for the balding midget.

[T Park]

Spurs should maximize Wemby on a rookie deal as long as they can and go all-in ASAP imo. He will be a MVP level player next season and he doesnt need Luka or Giannis to compete for the chip

trade/waive/renounce/whatever basically everyone besides Wemby/Vassell/Sochan and maybe Mamu if he can re-sign on a good deal. offer PG the max, trade for Young. Wemby/PG/Trae trio is good enough to win a title next season

Paul George to the max is a deal that would go down in the Luol Deng level of worst contracts ever

[Ariel]

Now that we know our picks.

Trade Keldon and 8 for Ingram.

Draft a point guard at 4.

Sign a veteran wing player who can get Julian minutes, which should be backup minutes with Ingram here.
Ingram is always injured and thrives in the midrange, plus his contract is expiring and is demanding a max contract. Could be a long term killer.

[T Park]

Draft Zach Edey….

why would you want to waste a pick on Boban 2.0?

[poopbox]

Ingram is always injured and thrives in the midrange, plus his contract is expiring and is demanding a max contract. Could be a long term killer.

His isolation scoring is needed on this team. Victor is the only player on our team who can halfway create his own shot. I'd be fine giving him a near max, maybe a full max if I had to. You look at his numbers and they are in line with what max salary wing players max.

I think his injuries are more a function of the staff than him. Pelicans players are always injured. There typically one of the most injured teams every year.

[tbdog]

I think Pelicans will be doing some significant moves this off season. They actually got some nice young pieces moving forward.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

Draft Dillingham and Castle/Holland/Risacher. Sign a veteran guard. Then prep for a much deeper 2025 draft.

[lefty]

Let’s bring him back

https://twitter.com/basketnews_com/status/1790767183477277130

[stnick2261]

I'd like to preface this by saying I'd be happy with any of 5-7 different choices this draft. But December 6th, I said my choice for the draft was Topic / Castle (2024 NBA Draft Thread). If I go by that early choice, I'd like to explore my ideal outcome.


I really want Castle or Topic... but I'd even be happy if we got both of them.

Begin the year with Tre starting and let Topic take his time with his rehab. Let him train with Wemby, work on his flexibility, and take some hollywood stunt-man classes on how to fall without hurting yourself (Shaq did that when he started doing movies and said it helped him from getting injured a lot when he fell in games). Then he can take over when he's ready.

Have a 3-man PG/SG rotation.

Topic / Vassell
Castle / Vassell
Topic / Castle

Roughly 16 minutes with each combination (32 mpg per player).

Find some way to get Lauri Markkanen and run the same 3-man PF/C rotation.

Lauri / Wemby
Sochan / Wemby
Sochan / Lauri

Roughly 16 minutes with each combination (32 mpg per player).

Champagnie and Keldon would have to hold down the SF position until the 2025 draft where I would love a top draft pick to get Ace Bailey... but I would expect a late-lottery pick to get Liam McNeeley who is expected to be a high quality 3&D SF who will be playing at UCONN (but is a Texas kid).

8-man rotation of:

Topic / Castle
Vassell
McNeeley / Johnson
Lauri / Sochan
Wemby

Once the team is set, we get UCONN coach (Dan Hurley) to take over for Pop. He's 51 years old, has a .709 winning percentage, and has an extremely smart basketball (team-first) strategy.

[CGD]

IN: Garland, Risacher (4), Vets
OUT: 8, 35, Keldon, Malaki, Graham
TBD: Cedi, Mamu, Bassey, Sidy

Garland/Tre/Wesley
Vassell/VET
Risacher/Champainge
Sochan/VET
Wemby/Collins

[venitian navigator]

Trade 4 for 7 and 14. Draft 7)Edey 8) the best of remaining guard/forward (in my order for guards Castle/Sheppard/Topic/Dilly for forwards Buzelis/Risacher/Holland/Salaun. With 14 the best remaining guard or forward (depending if at 8 we drafted a guard or a forward).

[sfernald]

So I was thinking about the ideal off-season for the Spurs IF they choose to go for a deep playoff run this year. I think Donavan Michell would be an ideal fit among those available this year. He is an absolute killer and really is a top 10 scorer in the league, and an aggressive closer like Murray. Also, there’s no big market teams available really. He’s not a got fit with Dallas (Luka), Lakers (LeBron), New York (Brunson), etc. But he would be a perfect fit with Wemby, probably one of the very best big men in the league next year. Out of all the guys available out here he’s the guy!

so my idea is trade Keldon and Vassell and Collins + however many firsts and swaps needed to make the trade happen. Draft Topić at #8 and Risacher at #4. So then you have the following starting lineup:

pg: Topic (to keep everyone involved and not just Mitchell)
sg: Mitchell (Murray or Luka like closer)
sf: Risacher (mpj shooter clone)
pf: Sochan (guards best player on other team and does Rodman stuff)
c: Wemby (Wemby!)

Then sign some vets for a deep strong bench and let’s run it back two or three years and see how far we can get in the playoffs! Tweek next offseason as necessary of course.

[scott]

So I was thinking about the ideal off-season for the Spurs IF they choose to go for a deep playoff run this year. I think Donavan Michell would be an ideal fit among those available this year. He is an absolute killer and really is a top 10 scorer in the league, and an aggressive closer like Murray. Also, there’s no big market teams available really. He’s not a got fit with Dallas (Luka), Lakers (LeBron), New York (Brunson), etc. But he would be a perfect fit with Wemby, probably one of the very best big men in the league next year. Out of all the guys available out here he’s the guy!

so my idea is trade Keldon and Vassell and Collins + however many firsts and swaps needed to make the trade happen. Draft Topić at #8 and Risacher at #4. So then you have the following starting lineup:

pg: Topic (to keep everyone involved and not just Mitchell)
sg: Mitchell (Murray or Luka like closer)
sf: Risacher (mpj shooter clone)
pf: Sochan (guards best player on other team and does Rodman stuff)
c: Wemby (Wemby!)

Then sign some vets for a deep strong bench and let’s run it back two or three years and see how far we can get in the playoffs! Tweek next offseason as necessary of course.

Aside from considering the availability of Mitchell, this would be a nice team but I think vastly improved if you could swap Topic for Dillingham. Having Dillingham's shooting in place of Topic's lack thereof would really round out this roster and make it much more dangerous. Yes, Dillingham has defensive question marks, but so does Topic (in addition to not being able to shoot)

[sfernald]

Aside from considering the availability of Mitchell, this would be a nice team but I think vastly improved if you could swap Topic for Dillingham. Having Dillingham's shooting in place of Topic's lack thereof would really round out this roster and make it much more dangerous. Yes, Dillingham has defensive question marks, but so does Topic (in addition to not being able to shoot)

i would be okay with dilly too, but I think Topić would be better because Mitchell is known not to focus on sharing the ball and Dilly is definitely more scoring oriented too and I would rather make sure the team is Wemby centric than guard centric even if it means giving up some shooting and scoring on the perimeter.

[rankingtear]

The problem with Mitchell is his knees are a ticking time bomb. You have to be sure the window is now.

[spurraider21]

Something to consider when talking about expected contract values

1793293186405683279

[R. DeMurre]

Something to consider when talking about expected contract values

1793293186405683279

There could be a repeat of that situation where Golden State was able to sign KD because of a sudden leap in the cap, or at least a scenario where a star free agent has 10 legit options instead of 3 or 4.

[spurraider21]

There could be a repeat of that situation where Golden State was able to sign KD because of a sudden leap in the cap, or at least a scenario where a star free agent has 10 legit options instead of 3 or 4.
yes and no. we're not going to get those sudden leaps in cap because the CBA says cap increases are smoothed out such that the max annual increase is 10%

however, if we can basically lock in 10% increases for the next 4-5 years, you can overpay people for contracts now... all those "how the hell can you justify paying that guy 38mil per year" deals will look like good deals 3 years later. ultimately the raw numbers dont really matter, its how much those contracts are relative to the cap that matters. jaylen brown being set to earn 50 mil looks batshit. right now the salary cap is at 136 mil, so that represents something like 35% of the cap. but if you take those same numbers and move them to a league where the cap is at 200 mil, its only 25% of the cap, which is equivalent to a player today earning 34 mil. i dont think anybody would bat an eye at jaylen brown earning 34 mil per year right now.

to be fair, this isnt exactly apples to apples because these contracts include annual raises, but these are in the form of about 8% a year i believe for the supermax deals... which will still not keep up with the expected 10% cap increases after the new media deal kicks in

but put aside the supermax deals with the guaranteed 8% raises. you look at a deal like vassell's... as long as he doesnt fall off a cliff, he will be a value player for most of his contract. an overpay today may look like a fair deal tomorrow and a bargain in a couple of days

chinook/bruno would do a much better job than me when it comes to articulating this stuff

[LeBowen]

There could be a repeat of that situation where Golden State was able to sign KD because of a sudden leap in the cap, or at least a scenario where a star free agent has 10 legit options instead of 3 or 4.

They were able to sign KD because Steph was still on that team friendly deal due to his injury history. Was on just $12M in 2016.
Klay and Draymond were on $16M each and they traded Barnes to get enough cap space.

[Seventyniner]

yes and no. we're not going to get those sudden leaps in cap because the CBA says cap increases are smoothed out such that the max annual increase is 10%

Is it possible that the league starts raking in so much money that even if the cap goes up 10% every year it still wouldn't catch the percentage of BRI the players are entitled to?

If so, the next CBA might allow for increases bigger than 10% in the future.

[spurraider21]

Is it possible that the league starts raking in so much money that even if the cap goes up 10% every year it still wouldn't catch the percentage of BRI the players are entitled to?

If so, the next CBA might allow for increases bigger than 10% in the future.
tbh im not sure how that would work. maybe some big windfall or large cap increase at the beginning of the next CBA. but the 10% rule is locked in as far as i know. it doesnt always happen year over year. i think 24-25 will only see something like a 3-4 % increase from this past season

[kobyz]

Sign OG Onunuby to max deal
Trade Collins, JS, fillers plus 10 first round picks for Joel Embiid
Spurs:
Tre Jones
Vassell
OG Onunuby
Wemby
Embiid

[TimmyBuckets]

Going back to the defensive roots. This would be ideal:

Dejounte
Vassell
Risacher
Sochan
Wemby

[Chinook]

So what's the ideal draft for people? I'm starting to wonder if it would be Risacher/Castle.

I'm not the biggest Zach fan, but he's the only SF prospect who looks like he could be the three-and-D pivot (though I guess he'd be an alero) that would let the starting unit work. Then Castle to come off the bench with Monk with Johnson, the best PF the RE can buy and Collins rounding out the bench. That's probably not impossible, but it is unlikely. I wonder how a Castle/Salaun draft would look. That seems significantly more doable. I'm not as in love with Salaun as some folks are, but he has the size to be a backup PF by mid-season. Ideally some vet is willing to come in and be competition for him, but the starting SF hole would require more immediate use of resources

The question becomes, what do you do in the off-season after that? RGM was briefly obsessed with a Garland/Vassell trade. Literally no Spurs fan agreed with it, so the talk shifted to Johnson/Jones/picks. I personally don't think Garland makes sense, but let's build something around that.

Draft-Day Trade:

Spurs trade Jones, Johnson, Wesley, 8, CHA25 and ATL25 to CLE for Garland and 20.
Spurs trade Graham, second(s) and the cash to cover his guaranteed salary to Detroit for a fake second

Draft:

At 4, the Spurs select Castle
At 20, the Spurs select Klintman
At 35, the Spurs select Mitchell
At 48, the Spurs select Mogbo (two-way)

Free Agency:

The Spurs would enter the summer with just shy of $25 Million in cap space and the RE to fill three spots.

I'll make some people's days and have all that cap space to go Patrick Williams on a $106.8M/4 deal. Since this is an "ideal" off-season, Chicago just lets him go that contract. Otherwise, the Spurs would give the Bulls their 2025 pick back in return for them not matching. In that scenario, they could add Champangie to the deal to push the value up to $119.7M/4. But that's getting a bit crazy given everything going on with Williams. Just like with the Bulls pick, I'm going to assume that extra money isn't needed.

With the room exception, the Spurs sign Keenan Evans from Europe. I have no idea what the exchange rate is between the leagues right now. Maybe the RE isn't enough. Maybe a min deal is good enough. But he does seem like a pretty typical sixth man, especially if that 6-3 height listing is without shoes.

Finally, to wrap things up, the Spurs bring back Barlow for one last year, with his versatility allowing him to offer depth at PF and center.

Below is the roster after all this plays out:


Garland, Castle, Evans
Vassell, Branham, Mitchell
Williams, Champangie, Cissoko
Sochan, Klintman, Barlow
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

TW: Mogbo and two other prospects picked up off the heap

(additions to the main roster in bold)

Thoughts: The bench is extremely worrisome in this scenario. Maybe Evans and Mitchell provide immediate dividends, and the second unit is Evans, Mitchell, Castle, Champangie, Collins. But this once again highlights the issues with trading Johnson in this types of deal. The sixth-man market has inflated even faster than the salary cap has. Even the full MLE isn't enough for most of those guys. Finding even just a good rotation player for the room exception is asking a lot. Evans looks to be more of a combo-guard in a bad way. He has respectable assist numbers, but he's more of a gunner than a creator. He can put vertical pressure on a defense, though, which is something that's not the case for the current guards.

But obviously the real heart of this off-season would be to create a Garland/Vassell/Wembanyama Big Three with Sochan and Williams supporting. I don't like the Garland fit, though I've been told that Darius is a good PnR player who'd improve beyond his All-Star status with a guy like Wemby to pass to. Perhaps with these three, the Spurs wouldn't need to worry about their bench much. But knowing how Pop does rotations, I think sixth man is still important. Considering what the Spurs will have paid to make this happen, I don't feel like they're even dark-horse contenders. Maybe in after two years of this core, they would be. But by then Sochan would be a free agent. After these moves, the Spurs would be $17.3 Million over the cap. They'd still be well under the tax, but they'd lose the benefit of having mostly flat or declining contracts and instead take Garland's, Williams' and Evans' raises. This means the Spurs could end up being a tax team after re-signing Sochan and making more draft picks.

There are worse scenarios out there, but I'd prefer a more conservative approach to rebuilding for the next couple of years.

[scott]

Thanks for the thought-provoking scenario (per usual), Chinook.

You make a real important point about this scenario, that is a common thread with most scenarios: almost all of them leave us with considerable bench weakness. This is a reflection of the relatively subpar level of talent on the team today and something I think we need to live with as a place to improve over time. We might just have to get used to the idea of a bench unit who will frustrate us and maybe even cost us some Ws next year. There seems to be a broad consensus from a lot of people on the board (and I'm in this camp) that play-in should be the target for 2024-25. If that is the case, then you can look to next year's draft to fill out the depth of the team (either by being bench contributors directly or pushing someone else to the bench).

With that said, it also does highlight the potential perils of tying up all your cap flexibility with someone like Garland this season. I'd much rather than go to a deal like Dejounte's which is a little more manageable or Lauri if you can find a way to use the capspace to fill out the roster next year and then resign him with bird rights. (I recognize you don't see Lauri as a fit, but that's where we have a firm difference of opinion).

[TD 21]

1. The bench already sucks.
2. Everything doesn't have to be solved at once. Of course that team wouldn't have championship upside. The goal would be to have a baseline of good enough young, complementary talent to at least push for the play-in next season.
3. They'd still have surplus premium picks to hopefully luck into a better second best player than Garland, but at least they'd buy themselves more time to find it.

[Chinook]

The concern for me isn't really about the cap space, at least for this year. This is one of the rare trades where the Spurs get a chance to use their cap space before doing the deal (though the trade between 8 and 20 does create some timing concerns that'd have to be worked out). I think the biggest thing that stands out to me is how it's much more important that the Spurs have a plan for small-forward than it is for them to upgrade the PG position. There are options in the draft for PGs, and Jones is a capable starter already. Even free agency has Monk who might be obtainable for the cap space the team has. But outside of Risacher, I don't know if there's a day-one starting SF. Knecht might be a starter offensively, but he'd be risky to depend on defensively. Buzelis and Holland have the talent, but their shooting would make it hard for them to fit at PF, let alone at SF next to Sochan. Shannon is more than talented enough, but ... you know. That's all why I'm pretty comfortable with the team drafting a PG and focusing more of their effort on getting that starting forward.

I don't agree the bench has to be a sore spot. Johnson is a good sixth man who just needs legit support. Expecting youngsters, projects and Collins to fill that out is questionable. If the Spurs draft a PG, that player will either start, pushing Jones to the bench to help there, or he will be part of the second unit. Castle may not improve the second-unit immediately, but he is a smart passer who might be able to unlock Collins and Champangie. If it's Dillingham, well then sixth man should be good enough for this season. Yes, if the Spurs make a big trade using Johnson, they may have to live with a bad bench. This thing is a process. But they can also live with not trading so much for one player right now and instead build a deep roster that can absorb the hit that comes with a potential star trade down the line. I think a play-in run built off a deep team lead by Wemby and Vassell would bode better for their long-term position than a similar run where the starters had to carry the load all night. Same place but much different paths forward.

[Knoxxx]

So what's the ideal draft for people? I'm starting to wonder if it would be Risacher/Castle.

I'm not the biggest Zach fan, but he's the only SF prospect who looks like he could be the three-and-D pivot (though I guess he'd be an alero) that would let the starting unit work. Then Castle to come off the bench with Monk with Johnson, the best PF the RE can buy and Collins rounding out the bench. That's probably not impossible, but it is unlikely. I wonder how a Castle/Salaun draft would look. That seems significantly more doable. I'm not as in love with Salaun as some folks are, but he has the size to be a backup PF by mid-season. Ideally some vet is willing to come in and be competition for him, but the starting SF hole would require more immediate use of resources

The question becomes, what do you do in the off-season after that? RGM was briefly obsessed with a Garland/Vassell trade. Literally no Spurs fan agreed with it, so the talk shifted to Johnson/Jones/picks. I personally don't think Garland makes sense, but let's build something around that.

Draft-Day Trade:

Spurs trade Jones, Johnson, Wesley, 8, CHA25 and ATL25 to CLE for Garland and 20.
Spurs trade Graham, second(s) and the cash to cover his guaranteed salary to Detroit for a fake second

Draft:

At 4, the Spurs select Castle
At 20, the Spurs select Klintman
At 35, the Spurs select Mitchell
At 48, the Spurs select Mogbo (two-way)

Free Agency:

The Spurs would enter the summer with just shy of $25 Million in cap space and the RE to fill three spots.

I'll make some people's days and have all that cap space to go Patrick Williams on a $106.8M/4 deal. Since this is an "ideal" off-season, Chicago just lets him go that contract. Otherwise, the Spurs would give the Bulls their 2025 pick back in return for them not matching. In that scenario, they could add Champangie to the deal to push the value up to $119.7M/4. But that's getting a bit crazy given everything going on with Williams. Just like with the Bulls pick, I'm going to assume that extra money isn't needed.

With the room exception, the Spurs sign Keenan Evans from Europe. I have no idea what the exchange rate is between the leagues right now. Maybe the RE isn't enough. Maybe a min deal is good enough. But he does seem like a pretty typical sixth man, especially if that 6-3 height listing is without shoes.

Finally, to wrap things up, the Spurs bring back Barlow for one last year, with his versatility allowing him to offer depth at PF and center.

Below is the roster after all this plays out:


Garland, Castle, Evans
Vassell, Branham, Mitchell
Williams, Champangie, Cissoko
Sochan, Klintman, Barlow
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

TW: Mogbo and two other prospects picked up off the heap

(additions to the main roster in bold)

Thoughts: The bench is extremely worrisome in this scenario. Maybe Evans and Mitchell provide immediate dividends, and the second unit is Evans, Mitchell, Castle, Champangie, Collins. But this once again highlights the issues with trading Johnson in this types of deal. The sixth-man market has inflated even faster than the salary cap has. Even the full MLE isn't enough for most of those guys. Finding even just a good rotation player for the room exception is asking a lot. Evans looks to be more of a combo-guard in a bad way. He has respectable assist numbers, but he's more of a gunner than a creator. He can put vertical pressure on a defense, though, which is something that's not the case for the current guards.

But obviously the real heart of this off-season would be to create a Garland/Vassell/Wembanyama Big Three with Sochan and Williams supporting. I don't like the Garland fit, though I've been told that Darius is a good PnR player who'd improve beyond his All-Star status with a guy like Wemby to pass to. Perhaps with these three, the Spurs wouldn't need to worry about their bench much. But knowing how Pop does rotations, I think sixth man is still important. Considering what the Spurs will have paid to make this happen, I don't feel like they're even dark-horse contenders. Maybe in after two years of this core, they would be. But by then Sochan would be a free agent. After these moves, the Spurs would be $17.3 Million over the cap. They'd still be well under the tax, but they'd lose the benefit of having mostly flat or declining contracts and instead take Garland's, Williams' and Evans' raises. This means the Spurs could end up being a tax team after re-signing Sochan and making more draft picks.

There are worse scenarios out there, but I'd prefer a more conservative approach to rebuilding for the next couple of years.

Edey at 20 and we could be in business!

[CGD]

Thanks for refocusing us.

I’m on record as wanting Garland. In my view this is the time to grab him while his value is at a nadir (for various reasons). Folks will cite the cost — fair— but when you go beyond the sticker shock and think about it as a % of the cap, it’s not unreasonable. This is happening when we’re still in Vic’s cheap years, which helps, and Dev’s deal functionally declines as a % of the cap as well. IIRC a Garland, Vassell, VW trio would cost ~55% of the cap for most of the 4 years they overlap. The new tv deal will only help.

My question is, whether they are factoring possible PG trade scenarios into their draft strategy. Hard to do since the draft comes first, but you can see how the idea of Risacher (plug and play 3/D) makes ton of sense. I assume 8 is moved to facilitate a Garland move but obviously that doesn’t have to be the case. If it’s still their I’d look to move it for bench help.

Getting to this SL starting day would be ideal:

Garland (25)
Vassell (24)
Risacher (19)
Sochan (21)
Wemby (20)

Key reserves:
Jones
Collin
Sidy
Rookie/Vet

[tbdog]

Under Chinook scenario, what would a trade look like with Murray or Young instead of Garland?

[CGD]

Under Chinook scenario, what would a trade look like with Murray or Young instead of Garland?

Cavs would want Dev since the scenario likely involves them keeping Mitchell. Spurs will balk and offer Keldon + Malaki + bunch of picks.

Questions are:

(1) who can build a better offer?

(2) is there enough plug and play value for CLE between Keldon, 4/8 pick (Castle? Kencht?), and Malaki to build around Mitchell and Mobley.

(3) does CLE value recouping any draft capital as part of a Garland deal since they’re depleted?

[Chinook]

Under Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) scenario, what would a trade look like with Murray or Young instead of Garland?

The Spurs could almost completely absorb Murray into their cap space. Like trading Graham's guarantee and Wesley or Branham would do it. If the team intends to use a trade exception to snag Murray, it becomes a bit more complicated and unideal in my opinion. The Spurs would have to send out $18 Million in salary. In theory, Johnson fits this perfectly. So a trade could look like:

SA: Johnson, picks out --- Murray in
ATL: Murray out -- Ivey, picks in
DET: Ivey out -- Johnson in

It's pretty elegant, but the Spurs are left with the same holes as the Garland scenario. In addition, if 8 goes out, there's no 20th pick to use to bring in that bench forward. Maybe as part of the deal, the Spurs could use their cap space to absorb Hunter prior to the Murray/Johnson part. That would give the Spurs their starting SF without them gambling on Williams. But if you take on Hunter, you definitely want a forward coming up behind him, which makes keeping 8 all the more important.

The 3.5-D chess move might be to guarantee Graham and trade Johnson for Murray, then Graham and one of Branham/Wesley/Bassey/Champangie for Hunter. The Hawks could even use the Collins TE to absorb Johnson and create a new TE from Murray's contract. The Spurs would have the choice of either the MLE and LLE or about $9 Million in cap space and the RE.

Murray, Castle, Evans
Vassell, Branham (assuming Wesley goes out), Mitchell
Hunter, Champangie, Cissoko
Sochan, O'Neale, Barlow
Wembanyama, Collins, Bassey

I feel like that team lacks shooting. If they went the MLE/LLE route, they could make a full MLE offer to Fontecchio to try to steal him from Detroit. Seems risky, though. Otherwise, they might be able to bring back Anderson to play backup PF, but his lack of shooting with Castle would be a bad fit even though that defense would be good. Maybe the LLE is enough for Evans. If it's not, finding a quality small-guard to bolster that rotation is going to be even more important. Or they could draft Dillingham rather than Castle and then be looking for a good defensive two-guard.

[jesterbobman]

I have the same general thoughts on weakness of SF.

I don't think Zach is that great, but I get the fit as a 3&D plus forward, especially if the rebounding picks up. Other SFs at the top of the draft are much more island of misfit toys (Holland is an awesome athlete and has some on ball equity that is worth betting on if he's a wing creator (but the shot), I think Matas is ultimately a PF, Cody could hit but he's more theoretical at the moment), Knecht can't defend.

For the draft, I think Castle / Sheppard is close to ideal as I don't think Zach will be there at 4, and I think Sheppard (or Dillingham, people vary) is a better bet to be a good player than than other guys I can see available at 8. (I think Matas, Holland and player X tbc go 5-6-7).

The SF options in FA are limited (Tobias Harris? I think he's a slightly above average player who's been overpaid as a max guy and underperforms in the playoffs, but he'd be an upgrade over Champagnie) other than the stars, and I can't see Paul George / LeBron / OG etc coming here.
I'd love to try and poach Isaac Okoro from Cleveland, and I get the theoretical appeal of Patrick Williams.

I'd wonder if you could get Okoro (and Cleveland) to agree to a Branham swap (if two years of cheap but worse play is worth it for the Cavs if they have $ issues), with Okoro signing for ~the MLE, and getting Patrick Williams for something similar in terms of money(or, a bit higher). I don't think Patrick Williams has proved he's really good yet, but I'd be OK with a second draft gamble on him at $15m a year or so.

I think Monk is the best player gettable in FA, but the fit might be iffy depending on how the draft goes.

[tbdog]

Monk is a great fit for most teams needing bench punch and the occasional start to manage injuries. He can finish games also. He will be sought after, and I think he is taking the best dollars. Kings only have early bird rights I think, so they kinda strapped how much they can pay him. Therefore sign and trades are out of the picture.

[MultiTroll]

Draymond Green and Veggie Miller do something that gets them banned from any involvement in the NBA.

[tbdog]

Chinook those trade ideas works out if Branham works out. What about drafting Sheppard instead of Castle in this scenario to boost shooting.

Also, I think Nets are the obvious trade candidate for Cavs and Bridges. Net's want draft capital. I believe Cavs can trade their 1st but require another in return for the 24 draft, due to Stepien rule?

[Knoxxx]

I posted this on another thread I think. Didn't get much feedback. Spurs give ATL their picks back, plus Keldon Johnson, Zack Collins, for Sarr and Murray.

First off would you do that? It gets us our PG and a nice prospect. ATL can now properly tank for the 2025-27 drafts as needed. We possibly accelerate our rebuild.

Now, I don't need the riot act or a 500-word essay about why you would or not do that. A simple yes/no is adequate re would or would not do. Me personally, I think Sarr does not impact winning immediately, but clearly Murray does. I am aware everyone is gaga about the 2025 and 2026 drafts.

I would be more interested in your other off season moves, if any, to include who to draft if we had Sarr and Murray incoming. Not needing a PG makes the 4/8 pick conversation a lot different.

[mo7888]

I posted this on another thread I think. Didn't get much feedback. Spurs give ATL their picks back, plus Keldon Johnson, Zack Collins, for Sarr and Murray.

First off would you do that? It gets us our PG and a nice prospect. ATL can now properly tank for the 2025-27 drafts as needed. We possibly accelerate our rebuild.

Now, I don't need the riot act or a 500-word essay about why you would or not do that. A simple yes/no is adequate re would or would not do. Me personally, I think Sarr does not impact winning immediately, but clearly Murray does. I am aware everyone is gaga about the 2025 and 2026 drafts.

I would be more interested in your other off season moves, if any, to include who to draft if we had Sarr and Murray incoming. Not needing a PG makes the 4/8 pick conversation a lot different.

No

[CGD]

I posted this on another thread I think. Didn't get much feedback. Spurs give ATL their picks back, plus Keldon Johnson, Zack Collins, for Sarr and Murray.

First off would you do that? It gets us our PG and a nice prospect. ATL can now properly tank for the 2025-27 drafts as needed. We possibly accelerate our rebuild.

Now, I don't need the riot act or a 500-word essay about why you would or not do that. A simple yes/no is adequate re would or would not do. Me personally, I think Sarr does not impact winning immediately, but clearly Murray does. I am aware everyone is gaga about the 2025 and 2026 drafts.

I would be more interested in your other off season moves, if any, to include who to draft if we had Sarr and Murray incoming. Not needing a PG makes the 4/8 pick conversation a lot different.

Not in this draft. 1 doesn’t appeal to me for than 4.

[Knoxxx]

Not in this draft. 1 doesn’t appeal to me for than 4.

Under this scenario, we are keeping the 4 and 8 picks, and we get 1 Sarr, OR Risacher if we prefer and Murray. We also offload the two players many want to trade away.

I didn't propose giving ATL our 4 pick for their 1 pick, if that is what you thought I was saying. We would have the 1-4-8. Yes, totally stupid to give away a possible lottery ticket for the 2025 draft, other than we don't even know that any future ATL picks will be lottery picks for us, for sure. Thus I am proposing a speed up the rebuild and bird in hand approach.

[CGD]

Under this scenario, we are keeping the 4 and 8 picks, and we get 1 Sarr, OR Risacher if we prefer and Murray. We also offload the two players many want to trade away.

I didn't propose giving ATL our 4 pick for their 1 pick, if that is what you thought I was saying. We would have the 1-4-8. Yes, totally stupid to give away a possible lottery ticket for the 2025 draft, other than we don't even know that any future ATL picks will be lottery picks for us, for sure. Thus I am proposing a speed up the rebuild and bird in hand approach.

Sorry, what I meant to say is that I don’t see enough value in THIS draft to justify getting another Top 10 pick (even if #1) by giving up both ATL picks in future drafts.

[Knoxxx]

Sorry, what I meant to say is that I don’t see enough value in THIS draft to justify getting another Top 10 pick (even if #1) by giving up both ATL picks in future drafts.

I agree with that concern, but I also think we may overrate how bad ATL is going to be and we don't know that for sure. Everyone assumes ATL is going to suck, but if they get a good return on Trae/Murray and other roster moves and/or draft picks play out, they may be as good or better this year than last. They will at least have a top PG, and we just saw how much difference that makes in W/L totals.

So I am challenging the conventional wisdom that the ATL picks are automatic gold, even in '25. If nobody challenged the CW, we'd all be cyborgs caught up in group think.

[Eaglenole2002]

I’m curious what kind of quality vets will want to come here potentially on the cheap just to play with Wemby. Onviously SA isn’t a big market so it’s tough to attract stars, but this is a pretty damn good place to try to improve your value and to play at your best — potential spacing due to Wemby’s gravity and the best eraser the NBA has ever seen to cover for any defensive woes. There are also plenty of minutes to be had.

[Pauleta14]

I’m curious what kind of quality vets will want to come here potentially on the cheap just to play with Wemby. Onviously SA isn’t a big market so it’s tough to attract stars, but this is a pretty damn good place to try to improve your value and to play at your best — potential spacing due to Wemby’s gravity and the best eraser the NBA has ever seen to cover for any defensive woes. There are also plenty of minutes to be had.

That's not gonna happen. The league keeps getting younger and veterans's value keeps risisng.

+ Fans keep fogetting it's a job first a foremost for the players. Money is always the main factor nowadays

[R. DeMurre]

I’m curious what kind of quality vets will want to come here potentially on the cheap just to play with Wemby. Onviously SA isn’t a big market so it’s tough to attract stars, but this is a pretty damn good place to try to improve your value and to play at your best — potential spacing due to Wemby’s gravity and the best eraser the NBA has ever seen to cover for any defensive woes. There are also plenty of minutes to be had.


I think about this topic a lot, and it's an interesting one because the concept of complementary players wanting to join forces with a star seems so basic, but it's still really rare. Lebron spent his first 7 seasons in Cleveland and they couldn't attract many impactful guys to join him. Same with Timmy. But I wonder if there'll be something like a Euro attraction element with Wemby, of European players wanting to be on a team where cultural backgrounds are more in tune, or if a Europe vs USA vibe plays into the equation.

[Bruno]

While Spurs have lost some flexibility by giving Vassell and Collins extensions, they have been gifted some new possibilities by being lucky during the draft lottery.

I won't give my ideal off-season, because I'm not sure what moves are possible in the real world, but I would like Spurs to follow some basic guidelines:

-Don't give up true assets for stop gaps:
It's fine for Spurs to add some aging vets to help the team as long as they keep their best assets to build their core. Best assets are first round pick (except the Charlotte pick), Vassell, Sochan and Keldon Johnson.

- Quality >> quantity:
The most important and difficult for Spurs will to be find a great Robin for Wembatman because Vassell is, at best, a third option. Spurs willl have 4 or 5 first round picks in the next 2 draft and 7 or 8 in the next 4 drafts. Spurs shouldn't hesitate to package some of these picks to get high quality players. Moves like trading down should be only done in some very specific cases.

- Don't go too slow:
Just adding rookies through the draft and doing nothing significant in the trade and FA market isn't enough for the summer. Wembanyama has shown too much things in his rookie year to be that slow in the rebuilding process.

- Don't go too fast:
It isn't as obvious as going too slow but I think the rebuilding can be too fast. Spurs won't contend next season and should use it as an opportunity to give playing time to their most promising young players. For example, if Spurs go with a PG at #4, they shouldn't add a starting caliber vet PG through trade of FA. Spurs have also a lot of holes with at least 2 or 3 starters and some bench players. If Spurs don't find a good option to fix a hole, they should let it open instead of going after a mediocre fix. Don't hurt your financial flexibility for a marginal player.

[Eaglenole2002]

That's not gonna happen. The league keeps getting younger and veterans's value keeps risisng.

+ Fans keep fogetting it's a job first a foremost for the players. Money is always the main factor nowadays


I think about this topic a lot, and it's an interesting one because the concept of complementary players wanting to join forces with a star seems so basic, but it's still really rare. Lebron spent his first 7 seasons in Cleveland and they couldn't attract many impactful guys to join him. Same with Timmy. But I wonder if there'll be something like a Euro attraction element with Wemby, of European players wanting to be on a team where cultural backgrounds are more in tune, or if a Europe vs USA vibe plays into the equation.

I don’t necessarily mean players will turn down huge money to play with Wemby, but maybe SA will be closer to the top of players’ lists of destinations for the MLE type deals, league vet, biannual exception, etc. Players respected Duncan, but it just seems like things are different with Wemby. Players see him as the future of the league and know he’s a unicorn. Cleveland with LeBron is a decent parallel, but our organization/coaching is miles ahead of Cleveland.

[venitian navigator]

Imho this draft is ideal for trade for more picks AND choosing complementary pieces.
In the first season after the "understanding" of Wemby streght and way of playing, considering that he's more than probably gonna be part of the "decision making" about choosing the right players to build the future team, I frankly would opt for drafting instead of trading for an already proven nba player...I would like to have three to four/five first round picks in this draft and would so explore the path for having these 2/3 more first round picks (we already have 2 and 2 seconds).
For example in Ayton is considered a problem by Portland, a trade could be : DAY +7+14 for KJ, Collins, Bassey, 35 and 48.


My ideal 4/5 picks :

4) Risacher
7) Castle/Topic/Sheppard
8) Edey/Clingan
14) Salaun/Holland/Buzelis

[mo7888]

Imho this draft is ideal for trade for more picks AND choosing complementary pieces.
In the first season after the "understanding" of Wemby streght and way of playing, considering that he's more than probably gonna be part of the "decision making" about choosing the right players to build the future team, I frankly would opt for drafting instead of trading for an already proven nba player...I would like to have three to four/five first round picks in this draft and would so explore the path for having these 2/3 more first round picks (we already have 2 and 2 seconds).
For example in Ayton is considered a problem by Portland, a trade could be : DAY +7+14 for KJ, Collins, Bassey, 35 and 48.


My ideal 4/5 picks :

4) Risacher
7) Castle/Topic/Sheppard
8) Edey/Clingan
14) Salaun/Holland/Buzelis

Most here will hate this. It's essentially dumping Keldon for a player who moves Wemby to pf instead of his natural position at C and doubles down by drafting another backup C. I'm not seeing that myself... Now, if you can offload DA to a 3rd team in this scenario then maybe.... but it's hard to envision who would take him rn..

[JPB]

While Spurs have lost some flexibility by giving Vassell and Collins extensions, they have been gifted some new possibilities by being lucky during the draft lottery.

I won't give my ideal off-season, because I'm not sure what moves are possible in the real world, but I would like Spurs to follow some basic guidelines:

-Don't give up true assets for stop gaps:
It's fine for Spurs to add some aging vets to help the team as long as they keep their best assets to build their core. Best assets are first round pick (except the Charlotte pick), Vassell, Sochan and Keldon Johnson.

- Quality >> quantity:
The most important and difficult for Spurs will to be find a great Robin for Wembatman because Vassell is, at best, a third option. Spurs willl have 4 or 5 first round picks in the next 2 draft and 7 or 8 in the next 4 drafts. Spurs shouldn't hesitate to package some of these picks to get high quality players. Moves like trading down should be only done in some very specific cases.

- Don't go too slow:
Just adding rookies through the draft and doing nothing significant in the trade and FA market isn't enough for the summer. Wembanyama has shown too much things in his rookie year to be that slow in the rebuilding process.

- Don't go too fast:
It isn't as obvious as going too slow but I think the rebuilding can be too fast. Spurs won't contend next season and should use it as an opportunity to give playing time to their most promising young players. For example, if Spurs go with a PG at #4, they shouldn't add a starting caliber vet PG through trade of FA. Spurs have also a lot of holes with at least 2 or 3 starters and some bench players. If Spurs don't find a good option to fix a hole, they should let it open instead of going after a mediocre fix. Don't hurt your financial flexibility for a marginal player.

All valid points with just a few persaonal ones I'd add.

1. I don't believe Keldon, Sochan or Devin have as much value for the rest of the NBA we spurs fans may give them.

2. More than too slow or too fast, I would talk about project and opportunities.
If you want to find your next starting PG through the draft, this year or next year, then yeah obviously trading for one this summer doesn't make sense. But if you're open to find it via trades, this summer or next summer doesn't make any difference, except you can miss on some opportunites this summer you won't get the next one(s)

So if you're open to do this, and let's say Dejounte is on the market this summer, then it's not about too slow or too fast, but that opportunity you wanna take or not, with no guarantee you'll find better by waiting.

[LeBowen]

So if you're open to do this, and let's say Dejounte is on the market this summer, then it's not about too slow or too fast, but that opportunity you wanna take or not, with no guarantee you'll find better by waiting.

The more I think about this , the more I'm convinced that Spurs should trade for DJ.
I'm not a fan of his personality, but looking at point guard contracts around the league, his contract is by far the best value in the league.
Borderline all-star for less than $30M per season? Ridiculous.
And then you try and find how many of those max point guards aren't a negative on defense.

Here goes an actual win now scenario.

Keldon, Tre, '26 swap extinghuished, Hawks get '27 swap rights for Dejounte.
If we go back, it would mean Spurs gave up '27 swap and two subpar players for '25 Hawks pick and Dejounte signed a team-friendly extension. Seems fair.

Then Markkanen trade I posted in trade ideas topic.

Collins, #8 Spurs '24, Chi '25, Cha '25 and lottery protected Spurs '26 which becomes unprotected in '27 if it doesn't convey for Markkanen.

After those two trades, Spurs would be left #4 pick in this draft, all but one of our own picks in future drafts and '25 Hawks unprotected.
I'd go as far as giving up both #4 and #8 for #10 in Markkanen trade if he 100% commits to signing an extension with the Spurs.

Two all-stars that are a great fit on both ends of the floor and more importantly wouldn't be overpaid.
Not guaranteeing Devonte and drafting at #4 would leave us at $110M payroll.
$31M in cap pace.

Get a veteran forward for cheap to take some bench minutes. Someone like Highsmith. Maybe even keep Mamu.
One of Bassey/Barlow as Wemby's backup. Or just get a veteran like Drummond/Plumlee if neither is good enough.
Give Branham one more year to prove himself. I think Wesley is too far gone. Maybe Sidy surprises us.

Then it comes to down to draft choice and which veteran to overpay on a short-term deal.

Option 1, draft Castle (or any forward):
Overpay Monk short-term.
DJ-Devin-Monk rotation would take most minutes at guard positions, Malaki can take what's left. Castle could play SG/SF.

One of Jeremy or Castle is always on the floor, they don't play together. Ever. Until they start shooting at a decent rate, that is.
If we take some other forward, then it depends on their shooting.

DJ/Monk/Wesley
Devin/Malaki/Champagnie
Jeremy/Castle/Sidy
Lauri/Highmisth
Wemby/Barlow/Bassey

Option 2, draft Dillingham:
DJJ has been amazing for the Mavs in the playoffs,
Sixers should be the only competition for him. OKC doesn't need him and other playoff teams don't have cap space.

DJ/Dillingham/Wesley
Devin/Malaki/Champagnie
DJJ/Jeremy/Sidy
Lauri/Highmisth
Wemby/Barlow/Bassey


You might ask why did I get rid of Tre? Well, Hawks will need a backup point guard if they trade DJ and they'd surely value him more than a handful of second rounders.
On the other hand, I really think Spurs need a player like Monk (or theoretical Dillingham) that could take over games from the bench with three level scoring.

I think a roster with DJ and Lauri as pieces we trade for would surely be a legit playoff in no time.
Maybe not in the first season, but who knows with Wemby's ridiculous development? Obviously Pop would need to get over himself and start coaching again.
Bench would be weak in the first season, but we can't really fix everything at once.
Just get the team to gel together in the first year and start winning games, then fill out the bench with two '25 picks.

[venitian navigator]

Most here will hate this. It's essentially dumping Keldon for a player who moves Wemby to pf instead of his natural position at C and doubles down by drafting another backup C. I'm not seeing that myself... Now, if you can offload DA to a 3rd team in this scenario then maybe.... but it's hard to envision who would take him rn..

DAA in my wiew is a risk worth two first round picks...and this trade save us our future draft choices.
But the benefits are multiple:

1) you start to really build for your future with quantity (4 draft picks);
2) you give one last chance to a skilled player that could be cut if doesn't behave (you still have the two picks as real price of the deal), but that if behaves well and understand that his playing time is in danger (Wemby and Edey risk to already be both better centers than him) could be part of the future or at least become a tradeble piece after one year try-out;
3) you not only preserve the player Wemby not playing him full time at center, but you give him the chance to play as he likes at least for part of the gametime and at five (with Sochan or Risacher/Salaun/Barlow as pf ) whenever is necessary because of the game situation.

[mo7888]

DAA in my wiew is a risk worth two first round picks...and this trade save us our future draft choices.
But the benefits are multiple:

1) you start to really build for your future with quantity (4 draft picks);
2) you give one last chance to a skilled player that could be cut if doesn't behave (you still have the two picks as real price of the deal), but that if behaves well and understand that his playing time is in danger (Wemby and Edey risk to already be both better centers than him) could be part of the future or at least become a tradeble piece after one year try-out;
3) you not only preserve the player Wemby not playing him full time at center, but you give him the chance to play as he likes at least for part of the gametime and at five (with Sochan or Risacher/Salaun/Barlow as pf ) whenever is necessary because of the game situation.

I wouldn't give a single 1st for DA, not even the Charlotte pick straight up. If they're taking Collins and Graham I probably would though. If we include Keldon, they'd need to pay us. Also, 4 picks in the weakest draft in a decade isn't a haul here.

[JPB]

The more I think about this , the more I'm convinced that Spurs should trade for DJ.
I'm not a fan of his personality, but looking at point guard contracts around the league, his contract is by far the best value in the league.
Borderline all-star for less than $30M per season? Ridiculous.
And then you try and find how many of those max point guards aren't a negative on defense.

Here goes an actual win now scenario.

Keldon, Tre, '26 swap extinghuished, Hawks get '27 swap rights for Dejounte.
If we go back, it would mean Spurs gave up '27 swap and two subpar players for '25 Hawks pick and Dejounte signed a team-friendly extension. Seems fair.

Then Markkanen trade I posted in trade ideas topic.

Collins, #8 Spurs '24, Chi '25, Cha '25 and lottery protected Spurs '26 which becomes unprotected in '27 if it doesn't convey for Markkanen.

After those two trades, Spurs would be left #4 pick in this draft, all but one of our own picks in future drafts and '25 Hawks unprotected.
I'd go as far as giving up both #4 and #8 for #10 in Markkanen trade if he 100% commits to signing an extension with the Spurs.

Two all-stars that are a great fit on both ends of the floor and more importantly wouldn't be overpaid.
Not guaranteeing Devonte and drafting at #4 would leave us at $110M payroll.
$31M in cap pace.

Get a veteran forward for cheap to take some bench minutes. Someone like Highsmith. Maybe even keep Mamu.
One of Bassey/Barlow as Wemby's backup. Or just get a veteran like Drummond/Plumlee if neither is good enough.
Give Branham one more year to prove himself. I think Wesley is too far gone. Maybe Sidy surprises us.

Then it comes to down to draft choice and which veteran to overpay on a short-term deal.

Option 1, draft Castle (or any forward):
Overpay Monk short-term.
DJ-Devin-Monk rotation would take most minutes at guard positions, Malaki can take what's left. Castle could play SG/SF.

One of Jeremy or Castle is always on the floor, they don't play together. Ever. Until they start shooting at a decent rate, that is.
If we take some other forward, then it depends on their shooting.

DJ/Monk/Wesley
Devin/Malaki/Champagnie
Jeremy/Castle/Sidy
Lauri/Highmisth
Wemby/Barlow/Bassey

Option 2, draft Dillingham:
DJJ has been amazing for the Mavs in the playoffs,
Sixers should be the only competition for him. OKC doesn't need him and other playoff teams don't have cap space.

DJ/Dillingham/Wesley
Devin/Malaki/Champagnie
DJJ/Jeremy/Sidy
Lauri/Highmisth
Wemby/Barlow/Bassey


You might ask why did I get rid of Tre? Well, Hawks will need a backup point guard if they trade DJ and they'd surely value him more than a handful of second rounders.
On the other hand, I really think Spurs need a player like Monk (or theoretical Dillingham) that could take over games from the bench with three level scoring.

I think a roster with DJ and Lauri as pieces we trade for would surely be a legit playoff in no time.
Maybe not in the first season, but who knows with Wemby's ridiculous development? Obviously Pop would need to get over himself and start coaching again.
Bench would be weak in the first season, but we can't really fix everything at once.
Just get the team to gel together in the first year and start winning games, then fill out the bench with two '25 picks.

The feasibility of these moves would have to be analysed, but that sure sounds appetizing. There musn't be many other alternatives, draft ot trades, specially if you consider the hazardous dimension of drafting, where you would do better than a Wemby/Dejounte/Lauri core. And if you can, you probably should.

[Extra Stout]

Hawks would want all of their picks back in undoing the DJM trade. As discussed, anything less is an admission of failure.

[R. DeMurre]

You have to wonder, though, because Danny Ainge is a pretty savvy guy... if he trades Markkanen to the Spurs, he knows the Jazz aren't even thinking about a title until about 2033.

[exstatic]

I agree with that concern, but I also think we may overrate how bad ATL is going to be and we don't know that for sure. Everyone assumes ATL is going to suck, but if they get a good return on Trae/Murray and other roster moves and/or draft picks play out, they may be as good or better this year than last. They will at least have a top PG, and we just saw how much difference that makes in W/L totals.

So I am challenging the conventional wisdom that the ATL picks are automatic gold, even in '25. If nobody challenged the CW, we'd all be cyborgs caught up in group think.

ATL doesn’t have to be bad enough to win the 2025 lottery for us to reap real benefits, just bad enough to hop into the top 4, and that’s easily imagined. Every year under the flattened odds implemented in 2019, at least one team from outside the top 4 jumps in, and twice in 6 years THREE teams have jumped in, including this year. Teams at 11,10,9, 8 (twice),7 (four times), and 5 (three times) have jumped into the top four, and that’s really all we need. The top four next year are all better prospects than anyone in this draft. Those jumps average to two teams jumping in every year. I’ll take those odds over the next 3 drafts over anyone in this draft.

[LeBowen]

The feasibility of these moves would have to be analysed, but that sure sounds appetizing. There musn't be many other alternatives, draft ot trades, specially if you consider the hazardous dimension of drafting, where you would do better than a Wemby/Dejounte/Lauri core. And if you can, you probably should.

Tbh, we went over every possible trade target many times.
As of now, there aren't any better options.

There are just too many variables that need to allign if you want to find a perfect trade:
1) Ability
2) Fit with Wemby
3) Contract value and length
4) Asking price and availability for trade
5) Age
6) Injury history

As I wrote in another topic, OKC's potential looks scary, but then you realize that rookie extensions for Chet and Williams happen in the same offseason and SGA's supermax kicks in a year later. There goes your cap space, no depth to be had.
That's why getting a borderline all-stars like DJ on such a team-friendly deal would be invaluable.

Lauri would be expensive and would need to be extended, but his fit with Wemby is just too good to ignore.


Hawks would want all of their picks back in undoing the DJM trade. As discussed, anything less is an admission of failure.

I said that myself many times during the season. But now they won the lottery and will surely compete, trying to retool around Trae.
In the trade I suggested, they'd effectively be giving up one FRP for Keldon+Tre, which isn't that horrible.

If they're to compete, then those picks aren't as valuable for us.


You have to wonder, though, because Danny Ainge is a pretty savvy guy... if he trades Markkanen to the Spurs, he knows the Jazz aren't even thinking about a title until about 2033.

He's in a predicament right now, can't really win on all fields.
Lauri already made it clear he'll ask out if sitting him in order to tank late in the season happens again and building around him would just turn them into a treadmill team for many years to come.
If there was ever a time for Jazz to tank (the only franchise to never lose 60 games), it's now with two strong drafts coming up.
And there aren't many suitors for Markkanen. I already mentioned OKC's cap situation and if they got Markkanen, they wouldn't be able to keep Chet or Williams a year later.

The way I see it is that Spurs simply must get into the playoff picture starting with 25-26 season and start to compete for the title in 26-27, it would be outright embarrassing not to with MVP level player on the roster.
Superteam era is gone, right now the way to go is to get a second option for your superstar and a couple more elite role players.
Free agent era for players still in their 20s is also gone, everyone just takes the bag or gets traded before they hit FA. There won't be much going on next summer in terms of FA.
And I'd rather have DJ on $25M than Mitchell on $50M and a way worse bench.

Trading for two perfect fit players that are about to hit their prime, with one of them being on a great deal seems like a no-brainer.
We'd get their entire primes before they're up for the next extension and would still have all of our picks.

Many teams failed because they were impatient and wanted to win at all costs, but don't forget all the teams that were seen as young and upcoming only to never reach that level.
Our seven FRPs before Wemby (Sochan, Wesley, Branham, Primo, Vassell, Johnson, Samanic) aren't worth as much as Markkanen alone.
We got Sochan to develop, we'd have one more '24 rookie in this scenario, two picks in '25, after that you'd expect us to be picking after 20th or so pick. At some point you have to start winning.

[Kevin]

These offers for Lauri are laughably low. Dude is arguably the best jump shooting seven footer in the NBA with solid defense. You're not getting him for filler contracts and protected firsts.

Spurs receive:
Lauri
Clarkson or John Collins contracts. Both have about 2 years 50 million left and Utah would love to get out of either of them if they are starting over without Lauri.

Jazz receive:
Devin Vassel
4th
8th

The Spurs can absorb Lauri's money with their cap space. Make a run at Trae Young and we're an instant title contender with all our own picks in tact.

[LeBowen]

These offers for Lauri are laughably low. Dude is arguably the best jump shooting seven footer in the NBA with solid defense. You're not getting him for filler contracts and protected firsts.

Five FRPs is the absolute most they could get, with one of them being fake first from Charlotte.
Other than OKC, noone can give them a better offer unless they're offering a potential all-star still on rookie deal.

As pointed out in another topic, if Jazz extends Markkanen, they can't trade him before the next offseason.
But they want to tank.
And Markkanen doesn't. He won't sign an extension unless Jazz gets some help this year and starts competing.
He's about to turn 27 and he never made the playoffs because he always ended up on shit rosters.

Jazz scenarios are as follows:
1) Trade Markkanen for the best offer before the deadline.
2) Extend him and try to compete, ending up as a treadmill team and missing potential top5 picks in the next few drafts.
3) Play dumb and tank again, Markkanen walks.


Clarkson or John Collins contracts. Both have about 2 years 50 million left and Utah would love to get out of either of them if they are starting over without Lauri.

Clarkson still has positive value, his contract is just $14M per year for the next two seasons. They'd send him somewhere else.
Collins also has neutral value, they could easily find a playoff team that would take him and send a FRP to get rid of a bad contract.


Devin Vassel

What exactly would they do with Devin's long term contract if they plan to tank for a couple of years?
Would only work if a third team takes Devin.


4th 8th

They have #10 already. I could see them wanting both #4 and #8 while giving #10 and #29 back, but they have no use for three or four FRPs in the same draft. Especially such a weak one.
Your offer of Devin they have no use for and two picks in a weak class is way worse than mine, tbh.


The Spurs can absorb Lauri's money with their cap space. Make a run at Trae Young and we're an instant title contender with all our own picks in tact.

Good stuff.
No '24 picks, Trae at point with no shooting guard in sight instead of great defense DJ and Devin combo would provide.
Not to mention he'll earn $18M more than DJ next season.

[Kevin]

You can still tank with Dev in the fold and they need a matching contract if they want to unload Collins. But if they just want the 4 & 8 that works too.

I could easily see the Jazz including the 10 and 29 while taking back the 35 just to get out of that first round rookie scale contract.

Spurs receive

Lauri
Collins
10
29

Jazz receive
Dev
4
8
35

Trade Zollins and Keldon plus all the ATL picks along with the Hornets fake first back to the Hawks for Trae Young and the Spurs are set. If the Hawks really insisted on the Bulls pick in instead of the fake first I'd be willing to do that too.

1. Young
2. Knecht or Devin Carter drafted at 10
3. Champ
4. Lauri
5. Wemby

Bench: Tre Jones, Jeremy Sochan, John Collins, Osman (must be brought back after these deals)

Wings need work but the Spurs have a ton of second round picks so they could add a proven vet(s) at the deadline for second rounders.

[LeBowen]

Trade Zollins and Keldon plus all the ATL picks along with the Hornets fake first back to the Hawks for Trae Young and the Spurs are set. If the Hawks really insisted on the Bulls pick in instead of the fake first I'd be willing to do that too.

Even if we disregard basketball ability and personal preferences between point guard choices, I wouldn't trade for Trae because of cap implications.
$18M per year more than DJ and he'd surely ask for another supermax extension in 2027.
While DJ would either take $31M option for 27-28 season or ask for a longer deal that wouldn't be close to Trae's contract.



1. Young
2. Knecht or Devin Carter drafted at 10
3. Champ
4. Lauri
5. Wemby

Young is a horrible defender, Champagnie is subpar and Lauri is average.
We'd have a big hole at SG compared to having Devin on a long-term, relatively cheap deal considering cap rising over the years.

DJ would fill multiple needs, while Trae would fill just one and we'd still need to find a point of attack defender.
Carter would be a good pick, but then you'd have to hide Trae on players way bigger than him.
I'd rather take a gamble on Dillingham.

All in all, I wouldn't mind including John Collins in the deal because he's still a good player, but I definitely don't want Trae.
The only reason why trading for two all-stars would work is DJ's team friendly deal.

If we go for Trae, then Lauri shouldn't be an option, but a bunch of 3-D wings on team friendly deals.
And I'd rather spend a handful of FRPs on Lauri than Bridges for example.

I also don't think Spurs would trade Devin.

[Kevin]

Even if we disregard basketball ability and personal preferences between point guard choices, I wouldn't trade for Trae because of cap implications.
$18M per year more than DJ and he'd surely ask for another supermax extension in 2027.
While DJ would either take $31M option for 27-28 season or ask for a longer deal that wouldn't be close to Trae's contract.



Young is a horrible defender, Champagnie is subpar and Lauri is average.
We'd have a big hole at SG compared to having Devin on a long-term, relatively cheap deal considering cap rising over the years.

DJ would fill multiple needs, while Trae would fill just one and we'd still need to find a point of attack defender.
Carter would be a good pick, but then you'd have to hide Trae on players way bigger than him.
I'd rather take a gamble on Dillingham.

All in all, I wouldn't mind including John Collins in the deal because he's still a good player, but I definitely don't want Trae.
The only reason why trading for two all-stars would work is DJ's team friendly deal.

If we go for Trae, then Lauri shouldn't be an option, but a bunch of 3-D wings on team friendly deals.
And I'd rather spend a handful of FRPs on Lauri than Bridges for example.

I also don't think Spurs would trade Devin.

Dev's nothing special at 26M per year. Good but not great shooter, ok creator, mediocre defender, doesn't get to the line much. He's very meh overall. I just don't get it.

[LeBowen]

Dev's nothing special at 26M per year. Good but not great shooter, ok creator, mediocre defender, doesn't get to the line much. He's very meh overall. I just don't get it.

Right now he's not, but he deserves at least one season on a roster that's actually trying to win.
People in here constantly compare his trajectory to Middleton's and their stats are more or less identical.

He won't be good enough to be focal point of the offense, but he could be a perfect off the ball scorer who can put the ball on the floor and hit a tough iso jumper here and there.
Will surely be a solid team defender when he's not asked to guard the best player.

Don't get me wrong, if Devin and a couple of FRPs is all it takes to get Markkanen, I'd do it.
I just don't think they're interested in a third option.

[exstatic]

These offers for Lauri are laughably low. Dude is arguably the best jump shooting seven footer in the NBA with solid defense. You're not getting him for filler contracts and protected firsts.

Spurs receive:
Lauri
Clarkson or John Collins contracts. Both have about 2 years 50 million left and Utah would love to get out of either of them if they are starting over without Lauri.

Jazz receive:
Devin Vassel
4th
8th

The Spurs can absorb Lauri's money with their cap space. Make a run at Trae Young and we're an instant title contender with all our own picks in tact.

You don’t know Danny Ainge at all. He would laugh and hang upon that offer. You also don’t understand that trades are often about contracts. Lauri is a rental. They can extend him, but that prohibits them from trading him before he’s a UFA, so we’re back to Lauri is a rental. No one is dropping a wad of picks for a player on a one year contract, and I’m here for the look on Ainges face when he realizes that in due time, probably August.

[fafo]

https://x.com/KDotTKL/status/1797717082823663911

Jonathan Givony from ESPN talking with Kevin O'Connor on the The Ringer NBA Draft Podcast (forgot how to embed tweets on here). Specifically stating that the Spurs want to be competitive next year, the team would be disappointed if they're at the top of the lottery again next year, and they will look into trading 4 and 8 for a veteran (he mentions Garland). Also mentions only untouchable are Victor and Devin.

[Kevin]

You can’t just assume that he’ll leave. No idea how you plan on rostering at least four first round picks in the next year or so. If the Bulls pick conveys it will be five firsts. I realize you prefer inferior players in exchange for inferior assets.

[Pauleta14]

https://x.com/KDotTKL/status/1797717082823663911

Jonathan Givony from ESPN talking with Kevin O'Connor on the The Ringer NBA Draft Podcast (forgot how to embed tweets on here). Specifically stating that the Spurs want to be competitive next year, the team would be disappointed if they're at the top of the lottery again next year, and they will look into trading 4 and 8 for a veteran (he mentions Garland). Also mentions only untouchable are Victor and Devin.

Go "advanced" reply, you'll see an (old) twitter logo

[Joseph Kony]

https://x.com/KDotTKL/status/1797717082823663911

Jonathan Givony from ESPN talking with Kevin O'Connor on the The Ringer NBA Draft Podcast (forgot how to embed tweets on here). Specifically stating that the Spurs want to be competitive next year, the team would be disappointed if they're at the top of the lottery again next year, and they will look into trading 4 and 8 for a veteran (he mentions Garland). Also mentions only untouchable are Victor and Devin.
tweet got deleted

[fafo]

tweet got deleted
https://x.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1797710715626942657 (https://x.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1797710715626942657)

[DPG21920]

1797710715626942657

[KingKev]

How is DV untouchable? He is a borderline starter on a fair deal with moderate upside on the defensive end. Probably never makes an AS game in his career. Very touchable IMO.

[TD 21]

Vassell is a solid starter trending towards topping out as a top one, which is a cut below All-Star caliber.

He's virtually untouchable because of his malleability and the fact that the majority of the rest of the roster (with one notable exception) is a disaster, so including him for a better second best player would basically undermine the reason for doing so.

As Wembanyama gets better and they presumably get said second best player, he should look better in a more appropriate role.

[Kevin]

I'd offer three different deals to the Jazz for Lauri. The Jazz will probably look to swap their very late first with our very early second so they can get out of the first round rookie scale contract so that swap will be included in every deal unless the Jazz value the 29 for some reason.

1. 4 and 8 plus the 29/35 pick swap for Lauri straight up with the Spurs absorbing his salary.

2. Dev and the 4 for Lauri plus a filler contract along with the 29/35 pick swap.

3. Dev, Sochan, the 4/8 plus the 29/35 swap for Lauri, John Collins and the 10. People will balk at the inclusion of Sochan but with the addition of Lauri and Collins there will be zero playing available at 4 and Sochan jumper is unplayable at 3 so don't even bother.

[Dverde]

Spurs are not trading Vassell unless it involves a top 20 player. You should keep him out of these trade proposals.

[DPG21920]

My ideal off season is 3-4 new players via draft/fa/trade.

Bottom 4 at a min need to be turned over and guys moved down the pecking order.

Cedi gone and Graham gone is 2. That leaves two more out of Bassey, Blake, Branham, Collins hopefully.

[Chinook]

The Spurs have too many future firsts to let teams trick them out of 4 and 8 this year by using the "bad draft" logic. No, expiring players don't return two top-10 picks. That doesn't happen, and pushing that isn't being "more realistic". Obviously Ainge can ask for whatever he wants, but the Spurs shouldn't entertain that kind of deal

[DPG21920]

I would rather just pay OG in FA than give up a ton for Lauri tbh…sure, OG may not be available, but we will just have to see.

[DPG21920]

My ideal off season is 3-4 new players via draft/fa/trade.

Bottom 4 at a min need to be turned over and guys moved down the pecking order.

Cedi gone and Graham gone is 2. That leaves two more out of Bassey, Blake, Branham, Collins hopefully.

To this point, to me, something like having Cedi and Graham off the roster and pushing Blake/Branham down the rotation or traded with an off season of something like: Drafting 1 of Reed/Castle/Dilly + a wing like Buzelis/Cody/Risacher then pulling a trade for Brogdon and maybe getting a FA (even in a S&T with someone going out) for something like Batum, Patrick Williams, Naji Marshall or Fontecchio would be a damn solid off season IMO

[DPG21920]

Would anyone here do Keldon for pick 5 straight up? DET gets a young still win now guy on a good deal and have plenty of cap space to absorb Keldon straight up. Spurs get pick 5 so will have 4, 5 and 8 in the draft.

If spurs are indeed higher on this draft than consensus, would the Spurs do that?

[KobesAchilles]

Would anyone here do Keldon for pick 5 straight up? DET gets a young still win now guy on a good deal and have plenty of cap space to absorb Keldon straight up. Spurs get pick 5 so will have 4, 5 and 8 in the draft.

If spurs are indeed higher on this draft than consensus, would the Spurs do that?
Everybody here would do that trade. Problem is that the Pistons won’t

[DPG21920]

Everybody here would do that trade. Problem is that the Pistons won’t

I think too many here are wayyyy of on Keldons value tbh…

[KobesAchilles]

I think too many here are wayyyy of on Keldons value tbh…
Too many people here are passionate either with homer glasses or hater glasses. They can’t give an unbiased viewpoint on the team here. I mean the amount of pushback I got for correctly saying Sochan shouldn’t be our PG this past year (or any year going forward) was just ridiculous. So many things are just obvious but people here are either too PATFO are never wrong and Spurs players are all great or PATFO are stupid morons and every player in the worst player ever.

I am of the mindset that we will be like OKC going forward and almost no current player will still be on this team in 3 years time. Pop needs to retire. We need younger blood to connect with the players. And really we need to get our foundation back as a corporation before we worry about the players. It really bothers me (and only me apparently) that we have zero high value assistant coaches. It also bothers me that we have no vet players on the team to teach our supposed “core” how to actually play basketball and be professionals. I really hope we sign Klay this summer. Draft Risacher and Dilly and bam Wemby is just surrounded by shooters in Klay, Vassell, Risacher, and Dilly.

[Pauleta14]

How is DV untouchable? He is a borderline starter on a fair deal with moderate upside on the defensive end. Probably never makes an AS game in his career. Very touchable IMO.

For us or any neutral observer, yes.

But you just have to listen to the way Pop talks about him to forget about that option.

Same can be said about Sochan (who he compares to Manu... smh)

Whatever projections we're doing has to include those 2 to be realistic

[Pauleta14]

Spurs are not trading Vassell unless it involves a top 10 player. You should keep him out of these trade proposals.

FIFY

(That's how much I think Pop has become sentimental or stubborn)

[Pauleta14]

Would anyone here do Keldon for pick 5 straight up? DET gets a young still win now guy on a good deal and have plenty of cap space to absorb Keldon straight up. Spurs get pick 5 so will have 4, 5 and 8 in the draft.

If spurs are indeed higher on this draft than consensus, would the Spurs do that?

I wouldn't

I wanna see Keldon in year 2 as a 6th man. It's a very important position and for all the low IQ he's shown sometimes (that can be worked on at his age) he brings tons of juice all the time and is reliable in terms of agressivity towards the rim. He also seems to be a great lockeroom leader/energy provider, great with the local community etc

He's worth another look imo

Add his friendly contract that can make him very valuable if he improves even little bit

[CGD]

IN: Castle (4); Garland; Batum; Plumlee
OUT: Keldon; Malaki; 8; CHA pick; Graham

KEEP: Julian; Sidy
TBD: Sandro; Cedi; Bassey

Starters:
- Garland
- Vassell
- Batum (placeholder for 25FRP)
- Sochan
- Wemby

Bench:
- Tre
- Castle
- Julian
- Plumlee
- Collins

RECLAMATION PROJECTS?
- Wiseman
- Bamba
- Bol

[jjspur]

Lets be honest, the spurs do trades - but they don't do a lot of trades, but since this is just an exercise lets see --. We need to improve or defense so that's where we should start.

Pick 4 Castle
Pick 8 & Charlotte 1st + Wesley Trade to OKC for J. Giddey & #12 Draft Devin Carter at 12
Picks 35,48 and 2 future 2nds traded to NY for the 25 pick. Select Kyle Filipowkski


Wemby Collins Fillipowski
Sochan Mamu Free Agent PF
K. Johnson Champ Barlowe
Vassell Castle Branham
Giddey Jones Carter

Addition by subtraction. Our part time starters get regulated to the 2nd or 3rd team. Our bench defense improves and Fillipowski can be switched with Collins. Mamu and Barlow get 1 year contract only, Branham does not get another year if he doesn't improve. We sign a free agent PF such as Xavier Tillman. Carter probably beats out Branham for minutes.

Not an all or nothing, but its a better team than we had this year, plus we don't give up a bunch of valuable future assets. Giddey passes to Wemby for the slam !

[LeBowen]

Lmao Giddey.
OKC had four shooters around him and he still got benched in Mavs series.
Shot 3/16 from deep over 7 games.
And you'd start him together with Sochan. :lmao

Not to mention that he's got just one year left on his rookie deal and would have to be extended.
And yeah, he likes underage girls.

[DPG21920]

Ya - im out on Giddey tbh….

[DPG21920]

I wouldn't

I wanna see Keldon in year 2 as a 6th man. It's a very important position and for all the low IQ he's shown sometimes (that can be worked on at his age) he brings tons of juice all the time and is reliable in terms of agressivity towards the rim. He also seems to be a great lockeroom leader/energy provider, great with the local community etc

He's worth another look imo

Add his friendly contract that can make him very valuable if he improves even little bit

Ya - I think theres pros and cons. Keldon is a very good player, still young and a legit scorer and 6th man. Spurs should not be in a rush to move him or get off his deal. I do think something like pick 5 is fair value in terms of one-for-one so that part is fine.

It’s more of a question of what doing something like that allows. I would be interested because as much as I like Keldon, I would personally prefer someone with more defensive upside alongside better passing (even though Keldon really improved there). He’s not a 3PT ace so it’s not like losing him hurts things there that much; but it does hurt overall offense and scoring punch.

But if you now have no Keldon (salary absorbed by DET here) + picks 4, 5 and 8 now, you get a lot of space (not just for this year, but next year too when it may matter more) and now you can really take some shots at a guard and maybe 2 wings?

Reed + Holland + Buzelis?

Risacher + Reed + Dillingham?


Does replacing Graham + Keldon + Cedi with one of those 2 combos set the team up better long term and get you more well rounded players net/net with also more flexibility going into off season now and next season?

[CorrectCrusader]

Going back to the defensive roots. This would be ideal:

Dejounte
Vassell
Risacher
Sochan
Wemby

Dejounte is not good defensively. The Hawks had a higher defensive rating with just Trae on the floor vs just Dejounte on the floor

[DPG21920]

The DET trade for Keldon is enticing not because I love this draft, but because its a clean reset of money/cap space that allows you to replace Keldon immediately (not via draft, but Im talking right now in FA) and get a more versatile team and bump 2 guys down rotation and open up real minutes for those who earn it.

But I also see reason not to do it too…Keldon is a very good player and his contract is not something that is negative at all *needing* to be moved. Guess it depends on which way SA wants to go, but theres pros and cons to the deal like all deals.

What about Keldon to POR for Brogdon + 14? You get your vet guard stop gap and additional lottery pick.

Could end up with something like:

Castle at 4, Cody Williams at 8, Bub Carrington at 14 and Brogdon as your vet PG starter stop gap?

That adds two nice guards for your future and a vet to basically phase out Graham/Cedi/Branham/Blake (unless they leap) and you add a nice wing to your stable to grow with team and replace Keldon.

[LeBowen]

Brogdon hasn't been healthy for three years and there were a lot of reports about him not being a good teammate.
I'd consider it if there are no other options and Blazers just salary dump him here because they're over the cap, but I'm not giving up Keldon for him.
Blazers that just hit the reset button won't trade their lottery pick for Keldon.

[DPG21920]

Brogdon hasn't been healthy for three years and there were a lot of reports about him not being a good teammate.
I'd consider it if there are no other options and Blazers just salary dump him here because they're over the cap, but I'm not giving up Keldon for him.
Blazers that just hit the reset button won't trade their lottery pick for Keldon.

They traded for Brogdon and Ayton etc…they seem to be trying to win to some degree and Keldon is young enough to fit their timeline still too IMO. Especially for pick 14 in this draft.

[LeBowen]

They traded for Brogdon and Ayton etc…they seem to be trying to win to some degree and Keldon is young enough to fit their timeline still too IMO. Especially for pick 14 in this draft.

He was a salary filler in Jrue trade.
Blazers got Jrue in Lillard trade and then sent him to Boston.

They'll be looking to move Brogdon and Grant this offseason.
Scoot already in sink or swim role.

[DPG21920]

He was a salary filler in Jrue trade.
Blazers got Jrue in Lillard trade and then sent him to Boston.

They'll be looking to move Brogdon and Grant this offseason.
Scoot already in sink or swim role.

Sure - but they dont seem to be tanking at all. Adding Keldon Will undoubtedly be good value + help that cause for Brogdon + 14 is the point

[TD 21]

Johnson for 5 (even in this draft) is insane. Johnson for Brogdon and 14 is closer to sane, but likely unrealistic all the same.

The problem with a Brogdon trade, is I'm skeptical the Spurs would go past something like the Hornets 1st, Graham, Wesley and Bassey or that the Trail Blazers would accept that.