Jeremy Sochan is Wemby's cryptonite. He needs to go to the bench

[Pauleta14]

Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah

Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby

Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'


https://youtu.be/I7-PHloAufw?si=hTJugSZOC4UtLGa_

Tom Haberstroh

Tom Haberstroh

[Jordan Jackson]

Yeah. Notice last night Pop is staggering the two. Not to dog pile on the dude because he plays hard but he’s in the way. He’s occupying space that ideally you would want Wemby to play in.

When Vassell is back, curious to see if they start playing Barnes at the 4 along side Wemby with Vassell at 2/3.

[Pauleta14]

This isn't a thread to shit on Sochan btw, I like a lot of things he does but I think being with the 2nd unit would make a lot more sense, more spacing for Wemby and also to help compensate Collins or Mamu's defensive liabilities with the bench unit.

+ could touch his ego and make him wanna fight to get this starting job back

[onechance87]

Would like to see mamu get more play time with wemby.Both sochan and wemby being bad at outside shooting just
is so akward.At least one of them gotta make outside shots.

[Leetonidas]

Sochan has played well to start the year but yeah it's becoming increasingly obvious that he just doesn't fit in a lineup with Wemby. He'd honestly be best served as a small C off the bench in place of Collins useless ass

[Light]

Sochan is the main point of attack defender. Unless Vassell takes on that role, I don't see him moving to the second unit

[CorrectCrusader]

I simply just don't see a future for Sochan unless he develops a respectable 3 point shot. Winning in the modern NBA requires spacing and 5 out MINIMUM 4 out offense (4 out only works when the 1 is the center)

[Chinook]

We're still so early in the season that single games can swing stats by a ton. For example, Collins and Wemby basically switched places in on-off/plus-minus stats just off last night's match. It's going to take five to seven more games for the stats to start to settle, and we'll have to get up to about the quarter mark before they become large enough to do any math with. The guy in the video is using one game where the Spurs played well below expectations for a half and then made a run in the second half to extrapolate trends. Last year, Sochan was Wemby's third most successful pairing. Last year, Wemby's worst partner was Wesley -- this year it's third-best. Things are very unstable.

Yes, there are real point of concern. The Spurs have collected too many players who are bad AND reluctant shooters, and that's making the decent shooters with high variance look worse their their down games. That's not defensible.

However, I do think it's overblown. Paul and Barnes are both shooting well this year, and Champ is probably the best they're going to get until Vassell comes back. Once Devin is back, it should be good shooting. The swing factor is going to be if Sochan is cross-guarded like he was in the games prior to last night. I think it's very irresponsible to take last night's game as a referendum on spacing rather than the difference between Victor being guarded by Kessler rather than Brooks and Williams. In those other games, Sochan was pulling the opposing center out of the paint with his movement. That was undeniably a positive move for spacing, but Victor struggled against guys who could defend on the perimeter.

The big question is if there's a way to prevent cross-matches without Sochan on the floor. Like would replacing Sochan with Vassell mean the opposing team would be unwilling to put a wing on Wemby? If that does work, then it's possible that a Paul, Vassell, Champagnie, Barnes, Wembanyama lineup really is the way to go. If they're willing to put their center on a forward, though, I'm not sure it'll have the improvement expressed by this video.

This is just a classic example of trying to find a way to blame Victor's struggles on other people so you don't have to acknowledge that he's not ready yet. I'm talking about the video here rather than the OP. Sochan has issues and needs to shape up or be upgraded. But there's no magic that's going to stop games like the second Houston and OKC games from happening.

[Pauleta14]

I simply just don't see a future for Sochan unless he develops a respectable 3 point shot. Winning in the modern NBA requires spacing and 5 out MINIMUM 4 out offense (4 out only works when the 1 is the center)

As a starter I agree

But in the league, he has a future as a plug in versatile defender.

When you see Dunn with Phoenix getting a decent 3 out of nowhere, Sochan is only 21 and a lot can still happen with a good work ethic (and maybe a talented shooting coach?)

[spurraider21]

We're still so early in the season that single games can swing stats by a ton. For example, Collins and Wemby basically switched places in on-off/plus-minus stats just off last night's match. It's going to take five to seven more games for the stats to start to settle, and we'll have to get up to about the quarter mark before they become large enough to do any math with. The guy in the video is using one game where the Spurs played well below expectations for a half and then made a run in the second half to extrapolate trends. Last year, Sochan was Wemby's third most successful pairing. Last year, Wemby's worst partner was Wesley -- this year it's third-best. Things are very unstable.

Yes, there are real point of concern. The Spurs have collected too many players who are bad AND reluctant shooters, and that's making the decent shooters with high variance look worse their their down games. That's not defensible.

However, I do think it's overblown. Paul and Barnes are both shooting well this year, and Champ is probably the best they're going to get until Vassell comes back. Once Devin is back, it should be good shooting. The swing factor is going to be if Sochan is cross-guarded like he was in the games prior to last night. I think it's very irresponsible to take last night's game as a referendum on spacing rather than the difference between Victor being guarded by Kessler rather than Brooks and Williams. In those other games, Sochan was pulling the opposing center out of the paint with his movement. That was undeniably a positive move for spacing, but Victor struggled against guys who could defend on the perimeter.

The big question is if there's a way to prevent cross-matches without Sochan on the floor. Like would replacing Sochan with Vassell mean the opposing team would be unwilling to put a wing on Wemby? If that does work, then it's possible that a Paul, Vassell, Champagnie, Barnes, Wembanyama lineup really is the way to go. If they're willing to put their center on a forward, though, I'm not sure it'll have the improvement expressed by this video.

This is just a classic example of trying to find a way to blame Victor's struggles on other people so you don't have to acknowledge that he's not ready yet. I'm talking about the video here rather than the OP. Sochan has issues and needs to shape up or be upgraded. But there's no magic that's going to stop games like the second Houston and OKC games from happening.
i think the spacing is not that bad. paul, champagnie (until vassell is bac), barnes, and vic are all shooting threats. having one guy in sochan on the floor isnt really a killer, especially when hes reasonably adept at driving to take advantage of open space. he's also been defending pretty well man to man this year (doncic and sga matchups were handled well). maybe the spacing has looked a little worse with champagnie going through a mini slump, but again... vassell should be more consistent anyway

i do think ultimately only one of castle/sochan can start, unless one of them (more likely castle) shows dramatic improvement in their outside shooting. teams being able to go under castle screens AND bring help from sochan's side is a lot to overcome.

castle is a long ways from being a starting caliber PG. and yeah, if he gets to that point where he simply has to play, then sochan probably does need to move to the bench. with the current roster, that would involve mamu starting alongside wemby.

[Pauleta14]

Sochan's game is around the rim, he'll always bring his defender closer to Wemby and make it easier for the opp the double or more or forcing Vic to settle on the perimeter to avoid the traffic.

It's basic logic and unavoidable as long as Jeremy can't shoot.

[NASpurs]

My favorite part of the video is when he said the Spurs need to get rid of Zach Collins and play Mamu over him.

[exstatic]

Mamu is pretty awful at defense. We JUST started trending upward. Do we have to give that back?

I like him as a change of pace, where he comes in, scrambles up their defense using motion and setting picks, hits a few shots, and sits down before the knew what hit them, or get an oppo to exploit him at the other end.

[NASpurs]

Mamu is pretty awful at defense. We JUST started trending upward. Do we have to give that back?

I like him as a change of pace, where he comes in, scrambles up their defense using motion and setting picks, hits a few shots, and sits down before the knew what hit them, or get an oppo to exploit him at the other end.

Is Collins good at defense? I might be missing something.

All I see that the Spurs have a net rating of -20 when he's on the floor and +32 when Mamu is on the floor.

[Dex]

Is Collins good at defense? I might be missing something.

All I see that the Spurs have a net rating of -20 when he's on the floor and +32 when Mamu is on the floor.

Bingo. Collins isn't exactly a defensive stalwart, and the only good thing he does on offense is passing which Mamu can also do.

He also wastes a possession every single time he shoots a three-pointer...any team is willing to let him take that shot which is why he is always wide-fucking-open and he still misses.

Meanwhile, Mamu is averaging 50% from three in his limited minutes this season, and basically has the same 3P% as Zach for their NBA careers.

[Chinook]

Sochan's game is around the rim, he'll always bring his defender closer to Wemby and make it easier for the opp the double or more or forcing Vic to settle on the perimeter to avoid the traffic.

It's basic logic and unavoidable as long as Jeremy can't shoot.

By this logic, centers would make it impossible for anyone to operate. We already know there are plenty of non-shooting centers who work just fine in the modern NBA. Victor is a perimeter player, apparently by the explicit desire of the coaching staff. He doesn't require that the paint be empty like he were a low-post player. Even as a driver, Sochan could space the floor just fine from the dunker spot. He doesn't need to be on the perimeter.

There are three dimensions to spacing (really four, but the last one doesn't especially matter in this conversation), there's around the three-point line, from the three-point line toward the basket (and outward away from the basket outside of the corners) and there's time (the last one is height/release point). It's way more complicated than taking a screen shot and seeing who's standing where. Sochan and Wemby are not as bad of a pairing as last night suggested, and we have plenty of data to support that. But it's likely that Sochan could've been benched against Houston and OKC and the Spurs get beat down just as badly if not worse while Wemby struggles.

Wemby's struggled because he has exploitable weaknesses. While I know you're not one of those who can't admit that, the folks in that podcast very much seem like they are, and they're pushing a narrative that doesn't actually align with the data, relying on one anomalous game as a cudgel to get their point over the finish line. Yes, the Spurs need to upgrade their roster, yes Sochan needs to get better, and yes, the Spurs need better shooting. But no, Sochan is not Wemby's kryptonite, because Wemby is not Superman. He's a kid growing up and trying to learn how to turn his outrageous talent into actualized success.

[Dex]

As for Sochan...his game may be chaotic and his three-point shot looks broken right now, but I feel like he has been the most consistent player on both offense and defense so far in this young season in terms of results...so moving him to the bench seems like a bit of a stretch.

Good players learn to play together and work with one another.

[Pauleta14]

By this logic, centers would make it impossible for anyone to operate. We already know there are plenty of non-shooting centers who work just fine in the modern NBA. Victor is a perimeter player, apparently by the explicit desire of the coaching staff. He doesn't require that the paint be empty like he were a low-post player. Even as a driver, Sochan could space the floor just fine from the dunker spot. He doesn't need to be on the perimeter.

There are three dimensions to spacing (really four, but the last one doesn't especially matter in this conversation), there's around the three-point line, from the three-point line toward the basket (and outward away from the basket outside of the corners) and there's time (the last one is height/release point). It's way more complicated than taking a screen shot and seeing who's standing where. Sochan and Wemby are not as bad of a pairing as last night suggested, and we have plenty of data to support that. But it's likely that Sochan could've been benched against Houston and OKC and the Spurs get beat down just as badly if not worse while Wemby struggles.

Wemby's struggled because he has exploitable weaknesses. While I know you're not one of those who can't admit that, the folks in that podcast very much seem like they are, and they're pushing a narrative that doesn't actually align with the data, relying on one anomalous game as a cudgel to get their point over the finish line. Yes, the Spurs need to upgrade their roster, yes Sochan needs to get better, and yes, the Spurs need better shooting. But no, Sochan is not Wemby's kryptonite, because Wemby is not Superman. He's a kid growing up and trying to learn how to turn his outrageous talent into actualized success.

Sochan isn't a center tho and even if Pop sees Wemby as (in part imo) a perimeter player, he also is the center. You csn't use traditional cops with someone so unique. If Sochan could shoot they could alternate inside/out but Sochan can't meaning Wemby will get either stuck outside or always in traffic inside.

Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.

I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.

It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.

Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman. No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.

[Pauleta14]

As for Sochan...his game may be chaotic and his three-point shot looks broken right now, but I feel like he has been the most consistent player on both offense and defense so far in this young season in terms of results...so moving him to the bench seems like a bit of a stretch.

Good players learn to play together and work with one another.


Sochan isn't in this category tho.

He's still in the "potentially good" level

[Chinook]

Sochan isn't a center tho and even if Pop sees Wemby as (in part imo) a perimeter player, he also is the center. You csn't use traditional cops with someone so unique. If Sochan could shoot they could alternate inside/out but Sochan can't meaning Wemby will get either stuck outside or always in traffic inside.


Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.

It doesn't seem like the Spurs want Wemby to set up inside. I think it's important to note that centers can totally still exist when guards that drive and wings that slash. Traditional spacing for a PnR has the PF sit on the weakside block, which is known as the dunker spot. That is because you want there to be a predictable place for the help to come from and an easy way to punish that spot. So the handler and the roll-man are moving toward the basket. The roll-man's defender is dropping back to contain the handler. Then roll-man is running free, splitting the defender's attention. The dunker's man steps up to help the roll-man defender. The handler drops the ball off to the dunker for an easy score.

Nowadays there are tons of ways to space a PnR that take advantage of different skill-sets. My point is that having a guy like Sochan or Bassey in the game with Wemby makes more sense if they're near the basket, because that's where they're most threatening. If the guys want to give Jeremy open dunks, yes they can help on Wemby. That's a much easier pass to make than kicking it out on the perimeter.


Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.

I don't know that evidence supports that. Their pairing data suggests it's pretty mutual. I've talked quite a bit about Jeremy being mostly neutral against opposing centers, but you can be worse than neutral. Sochan also has better pairing data with Collins this year than with Wemby, but as I've said that data's still way too noisy.


I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.

Franchise players don't become subordinate to lesser talents, even if that talent doesn't fit them well. Giannis and Robinson are great examples of that. As mentioned, Wemby didn't prop up Sochan last year. This year, the Spurs seem to have game-planned a very co-dependent relationship between them. If we're able to get more games where the opponent doesn't cross-guard Wemby, we may be able to see how successful Sochan is at scoring against guys his own size. He did not do well yesterday, but it was one game. We'll need more data to see if it was mostly due to the matchup or him just not playing well that night.


It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.

You say that with a ton of confidence, but it's not really what was born out in the data. Out of Victor's 10-most used lineups last year, the lineups with the highest and third-highest net-ratings featured both Jones and Sochan. While Tre shot decently well after becoming a starter last year, no one on this board would consider him a spacer. I am considering last year's versions Johnson, Branham and Champ spacers, even though a lot of STers would consider them inadequate. In terms of four-man units, Sochan was in the second, third and fifth through 10th units. In terms of trios, Sochan, Jones and Wemby ranked as Victor's third-best trio.

In short, I don't actually think there's as much evidence for that point as you assumed.


Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman

I am not talking about your view point. I said in each post in this thread that I understand you're being more cautious and realistic in your projection. I'm not attacking you.


No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.

My point is that we DON'T all know. The gist of that segment is "Why is Wemby inconsistent?" They felt the need to make up something that's not really well supported at all to justify why Wemby isn't the guy they were expecting rather than consider if their expectations were wrong and even unfair to make in the first place. Folks like them have zero interest in living in reality where GOAT talents take several years to develop. They want to churn that cycle is a finished product who only struggles because everyone sucks around him. That quickly turns into someone suggesting he ask out and then the soulless media ecosystem churning that baseless speculation into "rumors" that Wemby wants out. Then you have Stephen A Smith going on air talking about how Miami, LAL or NYK is such a better destination if Wemby wants to win or how the Spurs could at LEAST trade a million picks for Trae Young or Markkanen if they don't want to make their star unhappy.

It's a gross cycle, man, and it really does start with folks blaming everyone else but Wemby and his perfectly normal inexperience for why he has a bad game. They even said in that video that Chet "Has a better supporting cast around him" as if Chet is the star and not the support for SGA. It's bullshit, and it's bullshit with a purpose. People buying into that bullshit, even just the initial premises, sucks.

[Pauleta14]

^^

Let me answer you tomorrow, it's 3am here and I'm watcing Nuggets-Wolves :)

[tbdog]

Shooting is bad but Sochan isn't the main reason. The castle and Wesley combo is a dumpster fire. Does not help that Collins and Johnson are no longer three point threats and have gone backwards in that area of development. Replacing Wesley with Jones isn't going to help either.

Unfortunately the spurs might need to lean on Branham instead of Jones or Castle, paired with Julian in that second unit. That will sure displease spurs fans.

[poopbox]

Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah

Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby

Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'


https://youtu.be/I7-PHloAufw?si=hTJugSZOC4UtLGa_

Tom Haberstroh

Tom Haberstroh

Kevin took a shit on Keldon, Pop, and Collins while saying Mamu should play more :wow

Anti sniff crew membership confirmed :wow

[z0sa]

WOW, it's like, if you put people who shoot around Wemby, he can't be so easily quintuple teamed? WHO KNEW?!?!? I mean, even POPOVICH and WRIGHT couldn't figure this out, guise. And we're clearly, clearly, clearly not on their level, at all, tbh fwiw imo.

[SPURt]

As for Sochan...his game may be chaotic and his three-point shot looks broken right now, but I feel like he has been the most consistent player on both offense and defense so far in this young season in terms of results...so moving him to the bench seems like a bit of a stretch.

Good players learn to play together and work with one another.
+1

[TrainOfThought5]

This isn't a thread to shit on Sochan btw, I like a lot of things he does but I think being with the 2nd unit would make a lot more sense, more spacing for Wemby and also to help compensate Collins or Mamu's defensive liabilities with the bench unit.

+ could touch his ego and make him wanna fight to get this starting job back

this is so funny, people say we need to send every non shooter to the bench… then every year in the draft advocate for a NON Shooter, LOL now a bunch of non shooters are all on the bench.

[Robz4000]

Sochan is absolutely the kind of player you want around Wemby imo, both players just need to reign in their shot selections/volume.

[SouthernFried]

Not just getting in Wemby's way...but, everyone else too.

Said it after the first time I saw him play. This guy has one of the lowest BBIQ's I've ever seen. Running into people, out of position, bringing defensive players to the ball instead of away from the ball, has no concept of spacing, gets tunnel vision...and on and on. He plays like a 13 year old. He's Kryptonite for everyone.

[rankingtear]

There is no one to face guard on UTA that the lesser defenders can't. In these case playing Mamu is really more beneficial. But that is not the case with elite teams

[exstatic]

Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah

Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby

Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'


https://youtu.be/I7-PHloAufw?si=hTJugSZOC4UtLGa_

Tom Haberstroh

Tom Haberstroh

OK, so +24. Since a Wemby was +43 overall, that means that he was +19 WITH Sochan. Not a ginormous difference.

[Pauleta14]

It doesn't seem like the Spurs want Wemby to set up inside. I think it's important to note that centers can totally still exist when guards that drive and wings that slash. Traditional spacing for a PnR has the PF sit on the weakside block, which is known as the dunker spot. That is because you want there to be a predictable place for the help to come from and an easy way to punish that spot. So the handler and the roll-man are moving toward the basket. The roll-man's defender is dropping back to contain the handler. Then roll-man is running free, splitting the defender's attention. The dunker's man steps up to help the roll-man defender. The handler drops the ball off to the dunker for an easy score.

Nowadays there are tons of ways to space a PnR that take advantage of different skill-sets. My point is that having a guy like Sochan or Bassey in the game with Wemby makes more sense if they're near the basket, because that's where they're most threatening. If the guys want to give Jeremy open dunks, yes they can help on Wemby. That's a much easier pass to make than kicking it out on the perimeter.

Rarely on the low post, but often at the elbow, the best area he can be imo, he can pass, shoot a mid range or go to the bascket with just one step.

Having Jeremy never being far from the paint makes things more difficut and brings his defender closer to Wemby.

I agree there are diff ways to create spacing, not only the 3pt, but it requires a player like a Boris Diaw or a player that has a high bbiq and gets when he needs to move around depending on Vic's movements. Jeremy isn't there yet.

His 3pt shooting that obssesses everybody isn't the most important area I want to see him progress, his court awareness is really poor, he needs to find the right balance between his enthousiasm/high energy and his focus/decision making.



[/QUOTE]I don't know that evidence supports that. Their pairing data suggests it's pretty mutual. I've talked quite a bit about Jeremy being mostly neutral against opposing centers, but you can be worse than neutral. Sochan also has better pairing data with Collins this year than with Wemby, but as I've said that data's still way too noisy. [/QUOTE]

I don't have any data to support that tbh, it's mostly eye test. I'm not sure stats are necessary to state that Wemby is a lot better playmaker and talented passer than Jeremy.

I'd say the same thing about Tre, who despite being the PG ended up being more the receipient of pick and pop plays than setting up pick and rolls for Vic.

That's why last season's datas are so complicate to analyse imo.

Wemby being (a lot) better with Tre Jones for doesn't mean Tre was good as much as it meant the other options were terrible.




Franchise players don't become subordinate to lesser talents, even if that talent doesn't fit them well. Giannis and Robinson are great examples of that. As mentioned, Wemby didn't prop up Sochan last year. This year, the Spurs seem to have game-planned a very co-dependent relationship between them. If we're able to get more games where the opponent doesn't cross-guard Wemby, we may be able to see how successful Sochan is at scoring against guys his own size. He did not do well yesterday, but it was one game. We'll need more data to see if it was mostly due to the matchup or him just not playing well that night.[/QUOTE]

Of course it's just a small sample size, let's see how it goes, but Pop didn't do this move out of nowhere, he and his staff might have seen something and trying new stuff to identify the correlations and the real causations.

Again, the point isn't to shit on Jeremy, we all need him to be a success but it make sense to try new things and maybe it's just a correlation but maybe Pop found something vs Utah.

Forget Wemby, I like what Jeremy brings to our weak 2nd unit. We can't have another season where everytime Wemby goes to the bench it becomes a layup festival for the opponents. Jereny prevents that and it could help him grow a lot to become the leader of that unit imo.




[/QUOTE]You say that with a ton of confidence, but it's not really what was born out in the data. Out of Victor's 10-most used lineups last year, the lineups with the highest and third-highest net-ratings featured both Jones and Sochan. While Tre shot decently well after becoming a starter last year, no one on this board would consider him a spacer. I am considering last year's versions Johnson, Branham and Champ spacers, even though a lot of STers would consider them inadequate. In terms of four-man units, Sochan was in the second, third and fifth through 10th units. In terms of trios, Sochan, Jones and Wemby ranked as Victor's third-best trio.

In short, I don't actually think there's as much evidence for that point as you assumed. [/QUOTE]

Same answer than previous regarding last season's data. It's all relative considering all linups sucked, just some more than others. Of course having Tre is A LOT LESS damaging than having Wesley as a PG for Wemby, doesn't mean Tre was good.

I am not talking about your view point. I said in each post in this thread that I understand you're being more cautious and realistic in your projection. I'm not attacking you.

cool :)

[/QUOTE]My point is that we DON'T all know. The gist of that segment is "Why is Wemby inconsistent?" They felt the need to make up something that's not really well supported at all to justify why Wemby isn't the guy they were expecting rather than consider if their expectations were wrong and even unfair to make in the first place. Folks like them have zero interest in living in reality where GOAT talents take several years to develop. They want to churn that cycle is a finished product who only struggles because everyone sucks around him. That quickly turns into someone suggesting he ask out and then the soulless media ecosystem churning that baseless speculation into "rumors" that Wemby wants out. Then you have Stephen A Smith going on air talking about how Miami, LAL or NYK is such a better destination if Wemby wants to win or how the Spurs could at LEAST trade a million picks for Trae Young or Markkanen if they don't want to make their star unhappy.

It's a gross cycle, man, and it really does start with folks blaming everyone else but Wemby and his perfectly normal inexperience for why he has a bad game. They even said in that video that Chet "Has a better supporting cast around him" as if Chet is the star and not the support for SGA. It's bullshit, and it's bullshit with a purpose. People buying into that bullshit, even just the initial premises, sucks.[/QUOTE]

I could be wrong but I haven't identified even one biased Wemby fanboy on ST. For real (I know some tried to make me one "ad hominem style" but I'm too old for this shit like most on ST). I think we tend to over interpret posts and rants during games and after losses.

We're all aware of the stupid habbits Wemby refuses to get rid of but we're also all witnessing something we've never seen before despite our constant temptations to find comps from the past.

Deploring not having a better roster to start the career of a generational player doesn't exonerate any of his faults but it's how a lot of people perceive it on ST and it leads to a lot of unnecessary accusations and waste of time.

I think ppl perceive some of your posts as a passive agressive way to criticise Wemby the same way a lot thought I was being a hater on Sochan or Tre when I criticised them.

We need to chill :lol

PS/ Shit I don't know how to use a quote separation, hope it's understandable

[Pauleta14]

Kevin took a shit on Keldon, Pop, and Collins while saying Mamu should play more :wow

Anti sniff crew membership confirmed :wow

It's still quite timid, but there's a growing awareness in the media on the "wtf Pop is doing with Wemby..."

[CGD]

Let’s put a pin on this one for later.

Want to see whether a CP/Dev/Champ/Sochan/Wemby line up addresses the spacing issues.

Also think Barnes’s struggles has a lot to do with the spacing woes, which is not getting addressed as much.

[Pauleta14]

OK, so +24. Since a Wemby was +43 overall, that means that he was +19 WITH Sochan. Not a ginormous difference.

The point is not to say Sochan sucks but to wonder where he'd be more useful RIGHT NOW. Not long term

Other than the spacing aspect, don't you think Sochan would be a lot more useful with a 2nd unit who has Zollins who can't defend shit so that we don't lose all the benefice of Wemby's defense when he goes to the bench?

I also think Sochan needs to have to fight for his spot to become the player we all want him to become. Not his fault, but he never had to fight for his starting spot and I can't help but think it no stranger to his very slow development.

It's human nature

[ambchang]

There are multiple teams with a non shooting big with a shooting big, or even two non shooting big. Nuggets, Cleveland, Phoenix, Dallas. To pin this all on sochan is lazy, and to do it after one game is simply laughable, especially when sochan worked decently well with wemby last year.

Issue remains that wemby has to punish the defence when someone sticks a small on him. Post his ass up, or simply shoot over him.

[Dex]

I'm also going to add here that Sochan seems to have developed a great chemistry with CP3 which would be mostly negated if he was coming off the bench.

But OP obviously doesn't care about other valid points being made here, and is just sticking to their "SOCHAN BAD" schtick.

SpursTalk gonna SpursTalk.

[LeBowen]

There are multiple teams with a non shooting big with a shooting big, or even two non shooting big. Nuggets, Cleveland, Phoenix, Dallas. To pin this all on sochan is lazy, and to do it after one game is simply laughable, especially when sochan worked decently well with wemby last year.

Issue remains that wemby has to punish the defence when someone sticks a small on him. Post his ass up, or simply shoot over him.

The answer is coaching.
Cavs looked out of sorts last season, two undersized guards who also happen to be bad defenders and two non-shooting bigs.
Kenny Atkinson made them look like a legit playoff team right away and all the Garland/Allen trade rumors have stopped.

[ambchang]

The answer is coaching.
Cavs looked out of sorts last season, two undersized guards who also happen to be bad defenders and two non-shooting bigs.
Kenny Atkinson made them look like a legit playoff team right away and all the Garland/Allen trade rumors have stopped.

Yeah. I’ve been a staunch defender of pop for years but even I have to admit he’s really lost the script. The offensive and defensive schemes are largely head scratching, the lineups were vomit inducing.

That said, he is still highly respected by the players and he does have the ability to really manage the players well. Kawhi has proven that it was all on him and pop just got neutered by it. If pop can get a few good assistant coaches that will really take control of the Xs and Os, then have those assistants take care of the schemes, like what KFC used to do, then the spurs can make some serious noise.

Wemby is obviously an other-worldly talent, Vassell can be a good 3rd option on a championship level team, sochan does a lot of the dirty work, castle is a bulldog. These players can be a skeleton of a good young team. Develop castles outside game, get another scoring wing who can defend and the spurs can really compete with the right schemes. People make it out like OKC for talent at every position that are far better than the spurs. I disagree. It’s the schemes that have clear roles for the players that make the differences. These are professional athletes and they can certainly excel at their roles if they only have to focus on a few things. Asking them to be everything everywhere all at once is when they fail. Ironically, sochan is the biggest example of this.

[RC_Drunkford]

The point is not to say Sochan sucks but to wonder where he'd be more useful RIGHT NOW. Not long term

Other than the spacing aspect, don't you think Sochan would be a lot more useful with a 2nd unit who has Zollins who can't defend shit so that we don't lose all the benefice of Wemby's defense when he goes to the bench?

I also think Sochan needs to have to fight for his spot to become the player we all want him to become. Not his fault, but he never had to fight for his starting spot and I can't help but think it no stranger to his very slow development.

It's human nature

What exactly has been slow there? Sochan has literally been our best player and should be in the MIP race if he keeps this up. I don't see the issue. Have you seen his statline?

[Chinook]

Rarely on the low post, but often at the elbow, the best area he can be imo, he can pass, shoot a mid range or go to the bascket with just one step.

Gonna be just taking sentences here and there to keep the length down. You can space the floor between the dunker spot and the elbow. Of course, this is all assuming that Sochan hangs out at rim. In reality, it moves around the court, driving into the paint sometimes and cutting in at other times. Remember, spacing is multi-dimensional, and having guys move through the paint spaces better than having them stand still. My point was that you can provide viable spacing with a guy who stays inside the arc, even when you run a play that brings two more players into the paint. Think about how you can space a fast break with three guys where they all run into the paint at the same time. Even though the defender has less ground to cover, the pass would get to the spacer much more quickly, and the player would be in position for a quick and high-value attempt. Would you rather give Sochan a dunk or Mamu a three? Well Mamu is shooting 50 percent from three on a couple of attempts, but Sochan is shooting over 70 percent at the rim so far this year on way more attempts. Neither one is a shot a defense wants to give up.


I agree there are diff ways to create spacing, not only the 3pt, but it requires a player like a Boris Diaw or a player that has a high bbiq and gets when he needs to move around depending on Vic's movements. Jeremy isn't there yet.

Victor not having go-to moves plays into the difficulty of playing with him. Sochan can't sync his movements with Wemby because Wemby himself moves neither predictably or optimally. He moves to get himself into what he thinks is good scoring position, and an offense can't really function that way. Diaw was very smart and knew how to read a floor better than either of the young guys we're talking about, but he also played in a system that directed much of the movement in pre-planned actions. I think if you were to put 2014's Mills, Belinelli, Ginobili and Diaw on the modern Spurs, you'd see them struggle quite a bit. Would they surpass the current crop, of course. They were much better players. But would they just adjust to Victor breaking structure? Not nearly as well.


I don't have any data to support that tbh, it's mostly eye test. I'm not sure stats are necessary to state that Wemby is a lot better playmaker and talented passer than Jeremy.

You can examine it through a counterfactual though. Like if Sochan were helped by Wemby more than Wemby helped Sochan, then you'd expect Wemby's non-Sochan pairings to be better than Sochan's non-Wemby pairings. That's not how the numbers bore it out. They were both better together than they were with the majority of other players. This, year, Sochan is scoring better with a big who plays much less on the perimeter (though in an unstable sample size), which if Sochan were clogging the lane shouldn't make sense. Are we saying Collins is a better floor-spacer than Wemby or that he draws more attention?


Wemby being (a lot) better with Tre Jones for doesn't mean Tre was good as much as it meant the other options were terrible.

This is not false. But if you were to make a thread last year calling Jones Wemby's kryptonite because of one game where the Spurs went on a run without Tre in the lineup, it would look weird. There's a difference between saying, "Hey the Spurs should be open to upgrading over Sochan and trying new combinations" and "Sochan is damaging Wemby, and he needs to be benched"


I could be wrong but I haven't identified even one biased Wemby fanboy on ST. For real (I know some tried to make me one "ad hominem style" but I'm too old for this shit like most on ST). I think we tend to over interpret posts and rants during games and after losses.

There are definitely Wemby fanboys on this site. They've been quiet this year because of the struggles. But they exist, and they are normal. Player-fans are just part of the ecosystem, and a board that loves meming as much as ST amplifies them. A lot of the ones who were most vociferous last year have started to calm down. I'd like to say that the energy I put into fighting the conspiracy theories made a difference, but I think the Olympics helped more. People started to see that Wemby's struggles weren't merely a matter of coaching or supporting cast. He's objectively immature and underdeveloped compared to the guy we hope he'll become. A lot of people didn't see that objective situation until the Spurs were taken out of it.


Deploring not having a better roster to start the career of a generational player doesn't exonerate any of his faults but it's how a lot of people perceive it on ST and it leads to a lot of unnecessary accusations and waste of time.

It doesn't have to be used as an excuse, and as I said to another poster, I was quite upset that the Spurs passed up on a top-10 talent to run it back with Branham and Wesley and that they settled into Paul and Barnes over more dramatic moves. You can do both, but the ESPN folks aren't doing that. We'll see if there are a lot of posters on this site to follow suit. Hopefully, the progress we've seen since the second half of the OKC game is real, and Victor continues to take steps to marry his exploration with development meat-and-potatoes skills to allow him to get easy touches and allow the offense to work for everyone.


PS/ Shit I don't know how to use a quote separation, hope it's understandable

so it's [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] without the spaces. You keeping using the / for both sides, when it's only for the closing part of the excerpt you're quoting

[Seventyniner]

I'm also going to add here that Sochan seems to have developed a great chemistry with CP3 which would be mostly negated if he was coming off the bench.

But OP obviously doesn't care about other valid points being made here, and is just sticking to their "SOCHAN BAD" schtick.

SpursTalk gonna SpursTalk.

OP is a Wemby fan, not a Spurs fan. I'm not gonna feed the troll.

[LeBowen]

If pop can get a few good assistant coaches that will really take control of the Xs and Os, then have those assistants take care of the schemes, like what KFC used to do, then the spurs can make some serious noise.

We got Brett Brown. :lmao


Asking them to be everything everywhere all at once is when they fail. Ironically, sochan is the biggest example of this.

Said the same a few years ago.
Trying to teach players how to do everything is beneficial if those players actually have the potential for it.
If they don't, it's just too overwhelming and they get completely lost.

To me it just doesn't make sense to have a 75 year old coach when your franchise player is 20.
Should've taken a step back and a front office role to just help players on the mental side of things, but we could've had numberous younger coaches from Pop's tree in charge and they would grow with Wemby and the team.
Instead, we'll make a change in 2 or 3 years when Wemby will be close to his prime and everyone will expect results. Every lost season will be seen as a disaster. Get someone in while there's time to build and figure things out.

[Pauleta14]

What exactly has been slow there? Sochan has literally been our best player and should be in the MIP race if he keeps this up. I don't see the issue. Have you seen his statline?

Sochan has been great at... what we know he's great at. He's added consistency. Great.

We haven't seen any progress in his shooting, court awareness, ball handling or poise. He needs to control his energy and use it more wisely.

[LeBowen]

Sochan has been great at... what we know he's great at. He's added consistency. Great.

Idk what games you've been watching, but his post game is way better.
I posted his awful FG% in the paint many times, he just kept throwing shit up randomly.
In these few games his post moves have almost all been deliberate and calculated. He's using his body well.

The only real concern right now is his non-existant jumpshot. That will determine if he ever becomes anything more than a solid glue guy for the team.

[z0sa]

Don't get my /s wrong, Sochan's been doing well. But he can't be a long term guy next to Wemby (in terms of minutes on the floor) unless he's got a Bowen shot from the corner or its analogue. It's 2024, not 1984.

[LeBowen]

Don't get my /s wrong, Sochan's been doing well. But he can't be a long term guy next to Wemby (in terms of minutes on the floor) unless he's got a Bowen shot from the corner or its analogue. It's 2024, not 1984.

That's why I mentioned Cavs doing great with Mobley and Allen.
A competent coach can make a lot of things work...if Jeremy's other attributes make him a worthwhile starter, that is.
And while we might want it, Wemby won't be a traditional center. He's already shooting a lot and he'll undoubtedly improve his 3pt efficency.
Castle won't be a great shooter, but hopefully he'll be good enough to reliably hit open shots.
We need another wing, if we can get an elite shooter like let's say Bane, Castle/Devin/(Bane-like shooter)/Jeremy/Wemby would be good enough and even if it's not elite offensively, it would be monstrous on defense.
Mavs just made the finals with two players that shoot only when wide open and a non-shooting big. With two of their offensive engines both being bad defenders.

With that said, if Jeremy and Castle are both to start, our TBD wing position simply must be an elite high volume shooter.

[Pauleta14]

Gonna be just taking sentences here and there to keep the length down. You can space the floor between the dunker spot and the elbow. Of course, this is all assuming that Sochan hangs out at rim. In reality, it moves around the court, driving into the paint sometimes and cutting in at other times. Remember, spacing is multi-dimensional, and having guys move through the paint spaces better than having them stand still. My point was that you can provide viable spacing with a guy who stays inside the arc, even when you run a play that brings two more players into the paint. Think about how you can space a fast break with three guys where they all run into the paint at the same time. Even though the defender has less ground to cover, the pass would get to the spacer much more quickly, and the player would be in position for a quick and high-value attempt. Would you rather give Sochan a dunk or Mamu a three? Well Mamu is shooting 50 percent from three on a couple of attempts, but Sochan is shooting over 70 percent at the rim so far this year on way more attempts. Neither one is a shot a defense wants to give up.

Fair enough, especially regarding the tansition spacing, I was more reffering to the half court one.

My criticism is always mostly directed to PATFO and their limited choices with the roster they built. Each option has its limitations, we'd need a mix of Sochan and Mamu idealy


Victor not having go-to moves plays into the difficulty of playing with him. Sochan can't sync his movements with Wemby because Wemby himself moves neither predictably or optimally. He moves to get himself into what he thinks is good scoring position, and an offense can't really function that way. Diaw was very smart and knew how to read a floor better than either of the young guys we're talking about, but he also played in a system that directed much of the movement in pre-planned actions. I think if you were to put 2014's Mills, Belinelli, Ginobili and Diaw on the modern Spurs, you'd see them struggle quite a bit. Would they surpass the current crop, of course. They were much better players. But would they just adjust to Victor breaking structure? Not nearly as well.

Again, not exonerating Wemby, who's anything but easy to figure out and coach. I was too harsh when I said Sochan was more of a "cost", as all the players despites their defaults had to put their indiv interests aside for the better of the new Fanchise player.
However I think that considering the singular options Pop has at his disposal (Mamu good on O bad on D, Sochan almost opposite) it makes sense to try diff lineups depending on matchups. Even if it's a very small sample size and indeep the diff wasn't astounding, there was a noticeable one. Let's wait and see if it's tried again by Pop, I think it's worth trying not just for Wemby's interest but as I mentioned many times for Jeremy's as well.

Mitigating the weakness of the bench with extra juice and defence can't hurt either when Wemby can compensate Mamu's deficiencies for ex.


You can examine it through a counterfactual though. Like if Sochan were helped by Wemby more than Wemby helped Sochan, then you'd expect Wemby's non-Sochan pairings to be better than Sochan's non-Wemby pairings. That's not how the numbers bore it out. They were both better together than they were with the majority of other players. This, year, Sochan is scoring better with a big who plays much less on the perimeter (though in an unstable sample size), which if Sochan were clogging the lane shouldn't make sense. Are we saying Collins is a better floor-spacer than Wemby or that he draws more attention?

True but it can also be related with the lack of options we have more than Sochan's play in itself. It's relative

Despite this thread appearing to be anti Sochan (I messed up the title tbh), the real topic is "the rotations and linups options".



This is not false. But if you were to make a thread last year calling Jones Wemby's kryptonite because of one game where the Spurs went on a run without Tre in the lineup, it would look weird. There's a difference between saying, "Hey the Spurs should be open to upgrading over Sochan and trying new combinations" and "Sochan is damaging Wemby, and he needs to be benched"


That "kryptonite" quote is definitely too extreme and was a hot take one. I agree as I said on the previous answer, it's very relative.

Mostly on PATFO's choices and available options



There are definitely Wemby fanboys on this site. They've been quiet this year because of the struggles. But they exist, and they are normal. Player-fans are just part of the ecosystem, and a board that loves meming as much as ST amplifies them. A lot of the ones who were most vociferous last year have started to calm down. I'd like to say that the energy I put into fighting the conspiracy theories made a difference, but I think the Olympics helped more. People started to see that Wemby's struggles weren't merely a matter of coaching or supporting cast. He's objectively immature and underdeveloped compared to the guy we hope he'll become. A lot of people didn't see that objective situation until the Spurs were taken out of it.

I was effering to the ones you can't even exchange with, like the LBJ's who think you're a hater if you think he's not the goat etc

I genuinely haven't noticed any, I think a lot of posts are wrongly interpreted as such. Trust me I've been "victim" (:lol) of it many times, with ppl over interpreting my words (on many diff topics btw ;) :lol)


It doesn't have to be used as an excuse, and as I said to another poster, I was quite upset that the Spurs passed up on a top-10 talent to run it back with Branham and Wesley and that they settled into Paul and Barnes over more dramatic moves. You can do both, but the ESPN folks aren't doing that. We'll see if there are a lot of posters on this site to follow suit. Hopefully, the progress we've seen since the second half of the OKC game is real, and Victor continues to take steps to marry his exploration with development meat-and-potatoes skills to allow him to get easy touches and allow the offense to work for everyone.

Yeah, I also think we forget how Pop dgaf and even in the Big3 era he used the 1st half of the season to play tinkerman. I also suspect him to not be unhappy with Wemby's early season "get over yourself" game even if it was mostly due to lack of fitness and being under the weather for a few days (we've all played like that, you just have no juice).


so it's [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] without the spaces. You keeping using the / for both sides, when it's only for the closing part of the excerpt you're quoting

Thx mate! Better late... ^^

[Pauleta14]

What did I do wrong guy??

I followed what Chinook told me ffs :lol

[exstatic]

What did I do wrong guy??

I followed what Chinook told me ffs :lol

Asked, and answered.

[Trill Clinton]

The season is way too young but I'm optimistic with the young guys figuring it out. Sochan and Wemby together are a force defensively.

[Pauleta14]

Asked, and answered.

:lol nice one

Seriously tho where did I mess up with the [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] ??

cheers

[RC_Drunkford]

Sochan has been great at... what we know he's great at. He's added consistency. Great.

We haven't seen any progress in his shooting, court awareness, ball handling or poise. He needs to control his energy and use it more wisely.

Sochan wasn't great at anything last season. A lot of people here called him average and not elite at anything. Wasn't that the main critique point? He's rebounding better, scoring more and drawing way more fouls. Small sample size, but again if he keeps playing like this he will be in the MIP and all-defensive team race. With that type of production he's in elite role player territory. Him developing a jump shot would basically make him a borderline All-Star.

[polandprzem]

Yeah. I’ve been a staunch defender of pop for years but even I have to admit he’s really lost the script. The offensive and defensive schemes are largely head scratching, the lineups were vomit inducing.

That said, he is still highly respected by the players and he does have the ability to really manage the players well. Kawhi has proven that it was all on him and pop just got neutered by it. If pop can get a few good assistant coaches that will really take control of the Xs and Os, then have those assistants take care of the schemes, like what KFC used to do, then the spurs can make some serious noise.

Wemby is obviously an other-worldly talent, Vassell can be a good 3rd option on a championship level team, sochan does a lot of the dirty work, castle is a bulldog. These players can be a skeleton of a good young team. Develop castles outside game, get another scoring wing who can defend and the spurs can really compete with the right schemes. People make it out like OKC for talent at every position that are far better than the spurs. I disagree. It’s the schemes that have clear roles for the players that make the differences. These are professional athletes and they can certainly excel at their roles if they only have to focus on a few things. Asking them to be everything everywhere all at once is when they fail. Ironically, sochan is the biggest example of this.

I'm with you on Pop. Last year was a year of teaching tbh. Pop is good at that so I had not much problems with the losses. This year though it looks like it is a outdated basketball. Players can't play freely. Wembty can do whatever but idk if he have the smarts of TD to do that. His basketball IQ is getting suspicious even though he is young.

To criticize Sochan who is the best player on the team this season so far... idk

Overall Wemby is a shooter ;) and Sochan is inside player.

[itzsoweezee]

Wemby is 7’5”. Sochan is not the reason wemby isn’t taking shots in the paint. Victor is just refusing to move. He’s planting himself, whether on the perimeter or at the elbows. The movement on the baseline, the leak outs, the dives to the rim, they’re all missing. You can’t blame that on Jeremy. The lack of spacing was just as bad, if not worse, last year.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Wemby is 7’5”. Sochan is not the reason wemby isn’t taking shots in the paint. Victor is just refusing to move. He’s planting himself, whether on the perimeter or at the elbows. The movement on the baseline, the leak outs, the dives to the rim, they’re all missing. You can’t blame that on Jeremy. The lack of spacing was just as bad, if not worse, last year.

100% and I think you make a dramatically overlooked point.

Victor parks at the 3, ready to receive the ball, as if it was the paint. If he is going to be a lame outside guy, then he should put himself in motion. Steph Curry doesn't just camp out there.

[Duncan2177]

Kevin O Connor thinks Sochan shouldn't play with Wemby.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A7fSMa65wc

[Dex]

:lol nice one

Seriously tho where did I mess up with the [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] ??

cheers

It looks like you started and stopped several quoted sections with BOTH [ /QUOTE]

You have to be sure to START with [ QUOTE] (minus the space) and END with [ /QUOTE] (also minus the space)

[Chinook]

What did I do wrong guy??

I followed what Chinook told me ffs :lol

When you do the quote, there's no space between the opening bracket and the Q. So it looks like for the start and for the end. Except you put the whole word QUOTE in place of the Q.

Alternatively, you can just take the portions of a post you want to quote, highlight them, and then click the quote button in the interface.

I had to put the space so you could see it in regular text. So basically just go back into the post and edit it to remove those spaces, and it should be fine.

[Pauleta14]

for all the Sochan snifers out there... ^^


https://youtu.be/DjmuU5QkB4s?si=bVSnC8FiQ7Tsk7Ol

[John B]

Sochan is a perfect pnr target for CP3 with him rolling to the rim

[jermaine]

Maybe Wemby is Sochan's crypto

[ambchang]

If only wemby can roll to the rim like sochan. Maybe wemby will take that third year leap and be more like sochan.

[exstatic]

This aged poorly.

[John B]

If only wemby can roll to the rim like sochan. Maybe wemby will take that third year leap and be more like sochan.

Sochan is strong and goes through his defense. Wemby not so much., not yet.

[Chinook]

Again, not shitting on the OP, but I do find it funny how thoroughly this game discredited that analyst in the video. You can tell that guy didn't watch a second of the Spurs and has no interest in anything other than talking points. None of us is perfect, but we don't ask folks to pay us for our basketball takes. Shame on him.

[Pauleta14]

Maybe Wemby is Sochan's crypto

Maybe

Despite the good game, I maintain my pov

I don't see much compatibility between Wemby and Sochan, it might end up working but I don't see it now.

Sochan felt a lot more comfortable when Wemby was on the bench

[BackHome]

Sochan just took a big dump on some posters.

[Mr. Body]

I do think Sochan and Wemby can get in each other's way, but we saw some solutions tonight, moving Wemby on screens from the baseline corner, operating the pic and roll with Sochan/Paul, then getting Wemby deeper into the lane and high post. That high post area, where Poeltl learned to be so effective, can be a key, and those screens from the wings were a bit hard for Minnesota to cover.

There are solutions.

[scott]

Wemby looked really effective tonight with his off the ball movement. There were several occasions where he was fed the ball in very dangerous positions because of some off ball screens and good movement. We need more of that. Wemby seems to think of himself as an ISO self creator, but he’s actually not very good at that (which is predictable, given his size).

A lot of the time when “Sochan is clogging up the spacing” its because Wemby is trying to be something he is not. Unfortunately our HC is apparently encouraging this stuff.

[ambchang]

Again, not shitting on the OP, but I do find it funny how thoroughly this game discredited that analyst in the video. You can tell that guy didn't watch a second of the Spurs and has no interest in anything other than talking points. None of us is perfect, but we don't ask folks to pay us for our basketball takes. Shame on him.

OP bases his entire view of the world off YouTube, Twitter and instagram. In other words he can’t think on his own and can only regurgitate talking points from some unaccredited rando with a social media channel. The viewpoints have to be as sound bite hot takes as possible, generally the more controversial the better. Then he will take those viewpoints as his own, and accuse those who disagree with him of lacking critical thinking skills, comprehension skills and intelligence, and when called out go on a hissy fit.

It’s pretty much his entire schtick. Whether basketball or politics.

[RC_Drunkford]

there's zero issue with making Sochan the roll man while Wemby rather operates on the perimeter. On offense Sochan is basically the C and Wemby the PF which gives you plenty match up advantages since Jeremy is too quick for centers. I don't see a problem there, he even threw a lob to Wemby.

[Raven]

wemby-sochan-paul is the most fluid trio tbh, they play great with each other and it will force teams to adjust, because they can play the roll all season otherwise.

[Pauleta14]

Sochan just took a big dump on some posters.

Some poster have reading compehension issues it seems...

Just take a deep breathing it'll be fine boy

[Pauleta14]

I do think Sochan and Wemby can get in each other's way, but we saw some solutions tonight, moving Wemby on screens from the baseline corner, operating the pic and roll with Sochan/Paul, then getting Wemby deeper into the lane and high post. That high post area, where Poeltl learned to be so effective, can be a key, and those screens from the wings were a bit hard for Minnesota to cover.

There are solutions.

Thanks for stating the obvious that seems too sensitive for a vast majority of the Spurs fanbase :lol

WTF is happening with most of you guys ffs??

You can't have any nunaces in your analysis? It's hero or zero?

ps/ Hell yeah I hope there are solutions, we're seing Pop and his staff trying stuff since 2 games FOR A REASON

[Pauleta14]

OP bases his entire view of the world off YouTube, Twitter and instagram. In other words he can’t think on his own and can only regurgitate talking points from some unaccredited rando with a social media channel. The viewpoints have to be as sound bite hot takes as possible, generally the more controversial the better. Then he will take those viewpoints as his own, and accuse those who disagree with him of lacking critical thinking skills, comprehension skills and intelligence, and when called out go on a hissy fit.

It’s pretty much his entire schtick. Whether basketball or politics.

Hey Karen!

Stil haven't fixed your obsessive compulsive disorder I see...:lol

You got it girl... Anyone having a different pov than your will always have the wrong sources of info probably overall dishonest. Noone can fool you

PS/ I saw another video of you today, you look good!

[exstatic]

Sochan just took a big dump on some posters.

Well, one in particular who insists on doubling down.

[J_Paco]

Wemby looked really effective tonight with his off the ball movement. There were several occasions where he was fed the ball in very dangerous positions because of some off ball screens and good movement. We need more of that. Wemby seems to think of himself as an ISO self creator, but he’s actually not very good at that (which is predictable, given his size).

A lot of the time when “Sochan is clogging up the spacing” its because Wemby is trying to be something he is not. Unfortunately our HC is apparently encouraging this stuff.

There is a big difference between encouraging - which I doubt Pop is doing - and allowing a young player to play 'his game.'


Like Chinook has said throughout a lot threads, Wemby is a work in progress offensively and it's about figuring out how to unlock his potential, not being too discouraging at the same time, and building a competent offense around his unique skillset.

It's frustrating to see him doing all the 'hero ball' stuff, but it's something the coaches and team will need to work through/around. Giannis has a similar issue as did Kobe, Tony, and countless other players that always 'see a green light.'

[SpursBills]

I can't speak for anyone else on the board, but for me personally Sochan's success is almost a proxy for the competency of the front office as a whole. I think the entire Primo debacle shook a lot of people's faith in the front office and its ability to evaluate talent. As has been pointed out multiple times over the last year, multiple future lottery picks don't matter if your front office is so terrible that they're just going to draft busts with them.

Last year at this time, the front office's last few lottery draft picks included
1. Wemby (obvious)
2. Sochan (year 2 regression, looked lost out there, journeyman player)
3. Vassell (inefficient chucker who couldn't really get to the rim, slipping defense, doesn't really pass)
4. Primo (dumpster fire)

I don't actually give a shit about if Branham and Wesley pan out or not, hard to fault a front office without a franchise centerpiece for taking a swing on young unproven talent with a high bust rate to try and hit a home run in the 20s.

A year later, given early returns, it looks like:
1. Wemby (obvious)
2. Sochan - possible top 5 player in his draft class (Chet-Paolo-JDub as the top 3, Keegan Murray probably goes 4, does anyone else from that class have a definitively better trajectory?)
3. Vassell - rim efficiency went way up last year, playmaking more at the end of the year, defense still disappointing, borderline top 5 guy in his class (Ant-Haliburton-Lamelo-Maxey as your top 4, maybe Bane is ahead of him for the 5th spot)
4. Primo (dumpster fire)
5. Castle - numbers look bad but the eye test looks good, still early but promising

This is a lot more palatable to me. Yeah, they could have had JDub and Haliburton, but the guys they got look like they are outperforming their draft slots and turning into consistently solid players. If the Primo draft was more like an anomaly rather than a consistent pattern of draft ineptitude, I have a lot more faith in their ability to do something with all the picks that they're acquiring and not trading. We'll see how these guys look as the season goes on.

[ambchang]

Hey Karen!

Stil haven't fixed your obsessive compulsive disorder I see...:lol

You got it girl... Anyone having a different pov than your will always have the wrong sources of info probably overall dishonest. Noone can fool you

PS/ I saw another video of you today, you look good!

Do you even know what obsessive compulsive disorder means?

So you need nuances, but calling sochan the kryptonite of wemby is it calling him zero, it just means he can get into Wembys way. Got it.

[Pauleta14]

Do you even know what obsessive compulsive disorder means?

So you need nuances, but calling sochan the kryptonite of wemby is it calling him zero, it just means he can get into Wembys way. Got it.

How many times to you need to be told to take your time to read Karen? :lol

It's getting worrisome at this point...

Take a deep breathing and try again

[ambchang]

How many times to you need to be told to take your time to read Karen? :lol

It's getting worrisome at this point...

Take a deep breathing and try again

Go to comprehension now.

And Karen with taking deep breath.

What’s next? Logical issues? Extending an olive branch by continuously insulting people with absolutely nothing to add? Oh the mystery.

Btw, aren’t you in France now? Or your first language is French or something?

[ambchang]

Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah

Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby

Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'


https://youtu.be/I7-PHloAufw?si=hTJugSZOC4UtLGa_

Tom Haberstroh

Tom Haberstroh

Yup, so nuanced. Sochan kills the spacing and is Wembys kryptonite. But it just means he and wemby sometimes gets in each others way.

So much nuance it’s almost a nuisance.

[Pauleta14]

I told you to take your time Karen. You're not listening!!

Ok, I'll help you this time...

You can find a couple posts where I not only explain the use of the word kryptonite by quoting Haberstroh, but I also acknowledged a cple times that it wasn't warranted and just a clikbait hot take. Had you taken the time to read, you'd have had the chance to see a lot more nuance that I'm sure you wished.
I'm not gonna repeat myself so I invite you to take your time, keep your breathing under control, you should be able to find what you seek, there are only 4 pages.

As for where I am, sorry Karen, you're not my type.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean everybody knows that ideally Sochan would be a bench player. If Sochan played like prime Malik Rose I would be very satisfied with him as a player. Hustle, positive energy, defense and toughness. These are the things I want from him. Fuck shooting.

As of now we have one player who can really dribble in CP58. One player who can create his own shot in Wemby. One player who is starting to know his role on the team (out of the youth) in Sochan. Everyone else is kinda a mess. Vassell being injured doesn’t help.

But KJ needed to be traded last summer. Branham and Wesley aren’t rotational players on any contender. Collin’s is the most overpaid back up big in the league (literally). I am not putting much stock in anything this season other than Wemby passing out of double teams and being patient with them, Wemby getting a go to move. Wemby diving in pick n rolls effectively with CP58. The record this year doesn’t matter. This year the actual process for our superstar, Sochan continuing to learn his role on the team, Vassell learning how to pass the ball, and Castle just picking CP’s brain. Those are the only 4 players I care about.

[ambchang]

Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah

Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby

Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'


https://youtu.be/I7-PHloAufw?si=hTJugSZOC4UtLGa_

Tom Haberstroh

Tom Haberstroh

Shitting on Sochan.


This isn't a thread to shit on Sochan btw, I like a lot of things he does but I think being with the 2nd unit would make a lot more sense, more spacing for Wemby and also to help compensate Collins or Mamu's defensive liabilities with the bench unit.

+ could touch his ego and make him wanna fight to get this starting job back

Shitting on Sochan by saying not shitting on Sochan.


As a starter I agree

But in the league, he has a future as a plug in versatile defender.

When you see Dunn with Phoenix getting a decent 3 out of nowhere, Sochan is only 21 and a lot can still happen with a good work ethic (and maybe a talented shooting coach?)

Not shitting on Sochan, but still confirming he can't play with Wemby.


Sochan's game is around the rim, he'll always bring his defender closer to Wemby and make it easier for the opp the double or more or forcing Vic to settle on the perimeter to avoid the traffic.

It's basic logic and unavoidable as long as Jeremy can't shoot.

Basic logic he can't play with Wemby.


Sochan isn't a center tho and even if Pop sees Wemby as (in part imo) a perimeter player, he also is the center. You csn't use traditional cops with someone so unique. If Sochan could shoot they could alternate inside/out but Sochan can't meaning Wemby will get either stuck outside or always in traffic inside.

Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.

I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.

It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.

Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman. No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.

Still confirming the video's main point, which is that Sochan can't play with Wemby. he's not the Kryptonite, but not because he doesn't kill Wemby's game, just that Wemby is not superman.


^^

Let me answer you tomorrow, it's 3am here and I'm watcing Nuggets-Wolves :)


Rarely on the low post, but often at the elbow, the best area he can be imo, he can pass, shoot a mid range or go to the bascket with just one step.

Having Jeremy never being far from the paint makes things more difficut and brings his defender closer to Wemby.

I agree there are diff ways to create spacing, not only the 3pt, but it requires a player like a Boris Diaw or a player that has a high bbiq and gets when he needs to move around depending on Vic's movements. Jeremy isn't there yet.

His 3pt shooting that obssesses everybody isn't the most important area I want to see him progress, his court awareness is really poor, he needs to find the right balance between his enthousiasm/high energy and his focus/decision making.

I don't have any data to support that tbh, it's mostly eye test. I'm not sure stats are necessary to state that Wemby is a lot better playmaker and talented passer than Jeremy.

I'd say the same thing about Tre, who despite being the PG ended up being more the receipient of pick and pop plays than setting up pick and rolls for Vic.

That's why last season's datas are so complicate to analyse imo.

Wemby being (a lot) better with Tre Jones for doesn't mean Tre was good as much as it meant the other options were terrible.

Franchise players don't become subordinate to lesser talents, even if that talent doesn't fit them well. Giannis and Robinson are great examples of that. As mentioned, Wemby didn't prop up Sochan last year. This year, the Spurs seem to have game-planned a very co-dependent relationship between them. If we're able to get more games where the opponent doesn't cross-guard Wemby, we may be able to see how successful Sochan is at scoring against guys his own size. He did not do well yesterday, but it was one game. We'll need more data to see if it was mostly due to the matchup or him just not playing well that night.

Still reaffirming Sochan can't play with Wemby.



Again, the point isn't to shit on Jeremy, we all need him to be a success but it make sense to try new things and maybe it's just a correlation but maybe Pop found something vs Utah.

Forget Wemby, I like what Jeremy brings to our weak 2nd unit. We can't have another season where everytime Wemby goes to the bench it becomes a layup festival for the opponents. Jereny prevents that and it could help him grow a lot to become the leader of that unit imo.

My point is that we DON'T all know. The gist of that segment is "Why is Wemby inconsistent?" They felt the need to make up something that's not really well supported at all to justify why Wemby isn't the guy they were expecting rather than consider if their expectations were wrong and even unfair to make in the first place. Folks like them have zero interest in living in reality where GOAT talents take several years to develop. They want to churn that cycle is a finished product who only struggles because everyone sucks around him. That quickly turns into someone suggesting he ask out and then the soulless media ecosystem churning that baseless speculation into "rumors" that Wemby wants out. Then you have Stephen A Smith going on air talking about how Miami, LAL or NYK is such a better destination if Wemby wants to win or how the Spurs could at LEAST trade a million picks for Trae Young or Markkanen if they don't want to make their star unhappy.

It's a gross cycle, man, and it really does start with folks blaming everyone else but Wemby and his perfectly normal inexperience for why he has a bad game. They even said in that video that Chet "Has a better supporting cast around him" as if Chet is the star and not the support for SGA. It's bullshit, and it's bullshit with a purpose. People buying into that bullshit, even just the initial premises, sucks.

I could be wrong but I haven't identified even one biased Wemby fanboy on ST. For real (I know some tried to make me one "ad hominem style" but I'm too old for this shit like most on ST). I think we tend to over interpret posts and rants during games and after losses.

We're all aware of the stupid habbits Wemby refuses to get rid of but we're also all witnessing something we've never seen before despite our constant temptations to find comps from the past.

Deploring not having a better roster to start the career of a generational player doesn't exonerate any of his faults but it's how a lot of people perceive it on ST and it leads to a lot of unnecessary accusations and waste of time.

I think ppl perceive some of your posts as a passive agressive way to criticise Wemby the same way a lot thought I was being a hater on Sochan or Tre when I criticised them.

We need to chill :lol

PS/ Shit I don't know how to use a quote separation, hope it's understandable[/QUOTE]

Still reaffirming Sochan can't play with Wemby.


It's still quite timid, but there's a growing awareness in the media on the "wtf Pop is doing with Wemby..."

Shitting on Pop.


The point is not to say Sochan sucks but to wonder where he'd be more useful RIGHT NOW. Not long term

Other than the spacing aspect, don't you think Sochan would be a lot more useful with a 2nd unit who has Zollins who can't defend shit so that we don't lose all the benefice of Wemby's defense when he goes to the bench?

I also think Sochan needs to have to fight for his spot to become the player we all want him to become. Not his fault, but he never had to fight for his starting spot and I can't help but think it no stranger to his very slow development.

It's human nature

He doesn't deserve to start and got handed the job, nope, definitely not shitting on Sochan.


Sochan has been great at... what we know he's great at. He's added consistency. Great.

We haven't seen any progress in his shooting, court awareness, ball handling or poise. He needs to control his energy and use it more wisely.

Sochan didn't improve at all, despite the first few games of the season clearly showing he has improved in multiple aspects, but it's OK, because Twitterverse hasn't posted a clip up yet.

[ambchang]

Fair enough, especially regarding the tansition spacing, I was more reffering to the half court one.

My criticism is always mostly directed to PATFO and their limited choices with the roster they built. Each option has its limitations, we'd need a mix of Sochan and Mamu idealy

Again, not exonerating Wemby, who's anything but easy to figure out and coach. I was too harsh when I said Sochan was more of a "cost", as all the players despites their defaults had to put their indiv interests aside for the better of the new Fanchise player.
However I think that considering the singular options Pop has at his disposal (Mamu good on O bad on D, Sochan almost opposite) it makes sense to try diff lineups depending on matchups. Even if it's a very small sample size and indeep the diff wasn't astounding, there was a noticeable one. Let's wait and see if it's tried again by Pop, I think it's worth trying not just for Wemby's interest but as I mentioned many times for Jeremy's as well.

Mitigating the weakness of the bench with extra juice and defence can't hurt either when Wemby can compensate Mamu's deficiencies for ex.


True but it can also be related with the lack of options we have more than Sochan's play in itself. It's relative

Despite this thread appearing to be anti Sochan (I messed up the title tbh), the real topic is "the rotations and linups options".


That "kryptonite" quote is definitely too extreme and was a hot take one. I agree as I said on the previous answer, it's very relative.

Mostly on PATFO's choices and available options

I was effering to the ones you can't even exchange with, like the LBJ's who think you're a hater if you think he's not the goat etc

I genuinely haven't noticed any, I think a lot of posts are wrongly interpreted as such. Trust me I've been "victim" (:lol) of it many times, with ppl over interpreting my words (on many diff topics btw ;) :lol)

Yeah, I also think we forget how Pop dgaf and even in the Big3 era he used the 1st half of the season to play tinkerman. I also suspect him to not be unhappy with Wemby's early season "get over yourself" game even if it was mostly due to lack of fitness and being under the weather for a few days (we've all played like that, you just have no juice).


Thx mate! Better late... ^^

So after two days of continuously reaffirming Sochan can't and shouldn't play with Wemby, Chinook pushed your shit in and you finally is trying to soften up, saying "Kryptonite quote was too extreme and was a hot take one". At no point did you say it is click bait.


What did I do wrong guy??

I followed what Chinook told me ffs :lol

Can't quote properly because you're an idiot.


:lol nice one

Seriously tho where did I mess up with the [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] ??

cheers

Still can't.


for all the Sochan snifers out there... ^^


https://youtu.be/DjmuU5QkB4s?si=bVSnC8FiQ7Tsk7Ol

Video praising Sochan is for sniffers, in blue font because it is sarcastic, so you think a video praising Sochan is not for sniffers.


Maybe

Despite the good game, I maintain my pov

I don't see much compatibility between Wemby and Sochan, it might end up working but I don't see it now.

Sochan felt a lot more comfortable when Wemby was on the bench

Yup, maintaining the POV of a hot take that said Sochan can't play with Wemby, just all over the place now.


Some poster have reading compehension issues it seems...

Just take a deep breathing it'll be fine boy

Maybe you have consistency issue.


Thanks for stating the obvious that seems too sensitive for a vast majority of the Spurs fanbase :lol

WTF is happening with most of you guys ffs??

You can't have any nunaces in your analysis? It's hero or zero?

ps/ Hell yeah I hope there are solutions, we're seing Pop and his staff trying stuff since 2 games FOR A REASON

Yup, nuances because any view of Sochan can actually play with Wemby, despite a year and a bit of games showing that he actually could, is offset by one bad game by Wemby. Yes, so nuanced and logical.


Hey Karen!

Stil haven't fixed your obsessive compulsive disorder I see...:lol

You got it girl... Anyone having a different pov than your will always have the wrong sources of info probably overall dishonest. Noone can fool you

PS/ I saw another video of you today, you look good!

Don't understand what OCD means, but that is not the first time not knowing what something means keeps you from using it.


I told you to take your time Karen. You're not listening!!

Ok, I'll help you this time...

You can find a couple posts where I not only explain the use of the word kryptonite by quoting Haberstroh, but I also acknowledged a cple times that it wasn't warranted and just a clikbait hot take. Had you taken the time to read, you'd have had the chance to see a lot more nuance that I'm sure you wished.
I'm not gonna repeat myself so I invite you to take your time, keep your breathing under control, you should be able to find what you seek, there are only 4 pages.

As for where I am, sorry Karen, you're not my type.

You said it was a hot take exactly once, explained the usage of the word Kryptonite once, and said it was a clickbait zero times. Then, all eventually went back to you maintaining your POV that Sochan cannot play with Wemby. So who is the only one who has an "nuance" in their analysis? The only guy who said Sochan cannot play with Wemby!

[drpill]

I don't get this take at all, in fact I think it's quite contrary to what I'm seeing with my own eyes. Wemby and Jeremy have a burgeoning connection that is showing a lot of promise. Vic has been good at finding Jeremy from the get go, but it is becoming more of a reciprocal thing as Sochan gets better as a player. Sochan's also our best interior player with Wemby preferencing the perimeter game right now. It's easy to see how it can be Vic creating space for Jeremy when we've all been expecting it to be the other way around. Yeah, occasionally Sochan is in a weird spot and crowds Wemby's space, but it's a learning curve and there are plenty of ways in which this team's spacing has a long way to go.

Anyway, I didn't read any of these long ass posts so whatever. Just seems like it's obvious that these two should continue playing together, given the makeup of this team right now and how we are, hopefully, trending in a positive direction.

[Frenchfred]

Kevin O Connor thinks Sochan shouldn't play with Wemby.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A7fSMa65wc

I love Giannis but he cannot shoot a 3 so how would that work with Wemby? Wemby would have to play on the perimeter where he doesn't shoot well either? And 7 first picks??? Waow.

[Pauleta14]

Karen you forgot ur meds again...

It must be a nightmare to live around u everyday tbh :lol

[Pauleta14]

And again an amazing display of Jeremy and Vic offensive connection today!! :lol

[Wu36]

Sucks they didn’t have all the easy sochan buckets tonight.

[TimmyBuckets]

Dumb thread

[NASpurs]

Game was lost when the Kryptonite left the game

[Mnky]

Say what you want, but sochan spreads the floor better than wemby at this point. :rollin

I love wemby, he will get out of his shooting slump. Sochan benefits wemby. He does all the bang bang down low wemby is scared of. His rebounding before this year was what I thought was his biggest weakness to a wemby led team. He's doing way better playing down low when wemby wants to hang out at the 3 pt line all day. Sochan has been fitting what wemby wants to do. Maybe not what fans want, but wemby doesn't give a dang what fans want tbh.

Sochan was definitely missed when he went out.

Vassell coming back helps that starting lineup and the bench lineup look better. I'll wait to see them all together before jumping to conclusions when the spurs are trending much better than last year.

[scott]

What happened to Sochan tonight? I was at a bar watching and there was no sound. I presume he got injured… hopefully not serious?

[z0sa]

What happened to Sochan tonight? I was at a bar watching and there was no sound. I presume he got injured… hopefully not serious?

Sean and Jacob said something to do with hand, thumb specifically. No other news during the game.

[Pauleta14]

Say what you want, but sochan spreads the floor better than wemby at this point. :rollin

.

No question...

Too many sensitive ppl here to accept any nuance, my point was and is still that they don't complement each others on offense.

However Wemby is as much Sochan's kryptonite, we can see it anytime Wemby is on the bench, Jeremy's game becomes more fluid and a lot easier/simple for him. Wemby complicates it and forces him to play on aspects he's not the best at.

It's actually the case for almost every players, Cp3 included who has more difficulties with Vic than Jeremy

[scott]

No question...

Too many sensitive ppl here to accept any nuance, my point was and is still that they don't complement each others on offense.

However Wemby is as much Sochan's kryptonite, we can see it anytime Wemby is on the bench, Jeremy's game becomes more fluid and a lot easier/simple for him. Wemby complicates it and forces him to play on aspects he's not the best at.

It's actually the case for almost every players, Cp3 included who has more difficulties with Vic than Jeremy

How did you so rapidly become one of the worst posters on this site?

Delete your account.

[Pauleta14]

How did you so rapidly become one of the worst posters on this site?

Delete your account.

How do you want me to have any respect for you with post like this? :lol

[spursparker9]

What happened to Sochan tonight? I was at a bar watching and there was no sound. I presume he got injured… hopefully not serious?

The game commentator said left thumb injury. Didn't elaborate much.

Can see Wemby is gassed having to defend the rim and grab those rebounds, without Sochan

[scott]

How do you want me to have any respect for you with post like this? :lol

Why do you think this is something I want, or even GAF about?

[Vince Carter's ankle]

I simply just don't see a future for Sochan unless he develops a respectable 3 point shot. Winning in the modern NBA requires spacing and 5 out MINIMUM 4 out offense (4 out only works when the 1 is the center)
https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNjk4MjAzMzg4MTI2NTk0/377949305_1037086644328859_5536972460776023188_n.p ng

[ambchang]

Karen you forgot ur meds again...

It must be a nightmare to live around u everyday tbh :lol

Got called out about your bs and changing the subject again.

Saying stuff that adds no value and doing things that you define as Karen traits, then calling the other person a Karen. Typical Pauletta move.

:lol consistently thinking calling another person a female to be an insult. What age do you live in? To top it off you handle is Pauletta :lol. Can’t make this stuff up.


And again an amazing display of Jeremy and Vic offensive connection today!! :lol

What game did you watch?

[ambchang]

No question...

Too many sensitive ppl here to accept any nuance, my point was and is still that they don't complement each others on offense.

However Wemby is as much Sochan's kryptonite, we can see it anytime Wemby is on the bench, Jeremy's game becomes more fluid and a lot easier/simple for him. Wemby complicates it and forces him to play on aspects he's not the best at.

It's actually the case for almost every players, Cp3 included who has more difficulties with Vic than Jeremy

So the nuance is that wemby can’t play with anyone. :lol.

You have shown a level of stupidity that I thought couldn’t be topped, but then you outdid yourself. Bravo!

Went on for days about how sochan get in Wembys way, didn’t mention anyone else. Kept defending that point over and over again, got called out, kept changing the subject and brought no counter arguments.

Sochan got hurt, wemby does the same playground Jack threes from outside bullshit without sochan, and now it is almost every player, including CP3 who has been excellent with wemby so far in this going season, and one of the greatest PGs who works well with anyone.

Ultimately, the only conclusion that could be drawn is wemby cannot play with anyone. Which is just absolute bullshit.

[rankingtear]

OP is right. Wemby would likely avg more blocks without Sochan, it is underrated how much he stops dribble penetration even off ball.

[Raven]

damn this aged REALLY bad

[exstatic]

How did you so rapidly become one of the worst posters on this site?

Delete your account.

I think it’s a certain returning poster who’s handle also ended in a multiple of 7.

[RC_Drunkford]

Wemby being -21 is certainly Sochan's fault, especially when the Spurs were up by 10 points when he left the game.

[ambchang]

I think it’s a certain returning poster who’s handle also ended in a multiple of 7.

Yeah, kept saying he’s from France but he somehow can keep watching spurs game live even though it’s like 3 am Paris time.

I call bullshit.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Yeah, kept saying he’s from France but he somehow can keep watching spurs game live even though it’s like 3 am Paris time.

I call bullshit.
Do you think people in Europe don't watch the NBA?

[z0sa]

Aged like milk since Sochan is even hitting his 3's now. We need this dude in because he's the only one who consistently punishes his mismatches (that Wemby creates)

[John B]

Well you got your wish last night

[ambchang]

Do you think people in Europe don't watch the NBA?

Not every single game 3 in the morning.

[Pauleta14]

Why do you think this is something I want, or even GAF about?

That was rethorical idiot :lol

[Pauleta14]

Who am I supposed to be now? :lmao

[Pauleta14]

Well you got your wish last night

What do you mean? (genuine question in case...)

[spurraider21]

I love Giannis but he cannot shoot a 3 so how would that work with Wemby? Wemby would have to play on the perimeter where he doesn't shoot well either? And 7 first picks??? Waow.
same way it works with Sochan

the question to me isnt how it works with wemby. its a longer term question of how castle fits in. but i dont think the decision to acquire giannis or not should depend on stephon castle

[J_Paco]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjAwNjk4MjAzMzg4MTI2NTk0/377949305_1037086644328859_5536972460776023188_n.p ng

Right, you need Victor to become a more effective (efficient) 'hub' offense with three good - elite shooters. While, Sochan would occupy much of what Aaron Gordon does in Denver. He's not as big or as athletically gifted as Gordon, but he's shown this year (so far) that he is suited to that role.

[Mnky]

No question...

Too many sensitive ppl here to accept any nuance, my point was and is still that they don't complement each others on offense.

However Wemby is as much Sochan's kryptonite, we can see it anytime Wemby is on the bench, Jeremy's game becomes more fluid and a lot easier/simple for him. Wemby complicates it and forces him to play on aspects he's not the best at.

It's actually the case for almost every players, Cp3 included who has more difficulties with Vic than Jeremy

I think Vic is the common denominator here though, not Sochan. Vic is something different. There's going to be growing pains as he learns what type of player he wants to be or can be.

Sochan has been one tough sob going through all the changes he's been asked to do. He said himself he hated the PG thing, which contrary to popular opinion I think was great for his development. Slowed the game way down for him even if it was painful. He still did it though.

Sochan is a 3 pt shot away from being a great compliment to Wemby. His shooting continues to improve. He's another guy who never shot much growing up. People like to say shots don't develop after a certain time and it's thr most ridiculous crap ever. You become a shooter by shooting. Every good shooter was a bad shooter at some point.

Sochan is still just 21. He has as much chance as developing into a star as anyone outside the the top 5 from this years draft. If he was a rookie doing what he's doing now( he's younger than a few rookies), people would be going crazy for him.

All these players are still kids. They have plenty of time to develop. I'm in favor of sochan personally. Doesn't mean I'm glued to him, I'd take Lauri over him in a heartbeat. But still excited for his future tbh.

[Pauleta14]

I think Vic is the common denominator here though, not Sochan. Vic is something different. There's going to be growing pains as he learns what type of player he wants to be or can be.

Sochan has been one tough sob going through all the changes he's been asked to do. He said himself he hated the PG thing, which contrary to popular opinion I think was great for his development. Slowed the game way down for him even if it was painful. He still did it though.

Sochan is a 3 pt shot away from being a great compliment to Wemby. His shooting continues to improve. He's another guy who never shot much growing up. People like to say shots don't develop after a certain time and it's thr most ridiculous crap ever. You become a shooter by shooting. Every good shooter was a bad shooter at some point.

Sochan is still just 21. He has as much chance as developing into a star as anyone outside the the top 5 from this years draft. If he was a rookie doing what he's doing now( he's younger than a few rookies), people would be going crazy for him.

All these players are still kids. They have plenty of time to develop. I'm in favor of sochan personally. Doesn't mean I'm glued to him, I'd take Lauri over him in a heartbeat. But still excited for his future tbh.

Of course it starts with Wemby...
.
Let me clear up something that makes me laugh tbh but seems to upset a lot of people (I know it's childish but they deserve it ^^), I like Sochan and I'm too old to be a fanboy, the only player I've been a fanboy and emotional about in my life was MJ, but I was 10 to 16yo

Anything I say/write is never ever an attack on the kid, I wish everybody the best, it's irrelevant to me. Those are professional athletes paid more in a year than their parents in their lifetime. Perspective matters.

Wemby being the center of the project, of course by default, even if he's in the wrong, he's the one that matters and calls have to be made in his best interest. Is it fair? No. But it's how the business works and he's the one that'll be the most accountable to the medias and fans in the end so he deserves some privileges if we're honest.

Regarding Sochan, my positive posts seem to go unnoticed, I've been 99% complimentary since the start of the season. Like Wemby he's a very unorthodox player that needs a lot of work and patience. Timming sucks for him as much as for Wemby, both could've used a better roster to help them start their career than being surrounded by guys who have as much to learn.

That being said, I can't say anything else but what I see... Wemby and Sochan struggle on offense, we've seen it yesterday again with 2 straight sctions before Wemby was bench in the 1st (maybe what lead to the earlier than usual benching?) it's not a matter of who's right or wrong (obviously Wemby has a lot more responsabilities bc nobody, teammates included I'm sure, understand his offensive game and where he's supposed to be).

When Vic was on the bench against Utah I think, Sochan and Cp3 had an amazing P&R connection that we're all waiting to see from Wemby. They're just not the right compatible profiles to me. Even if they love each other

I don't pretend to have the solution, I just point out what I see. Then we can disagree and discuss without going at each other's throat :lol

[RC_Drunkford]

Funny that people complain about Sochan not spreading the floor while Vic shoots 22% on over 7 attempts per game from 3

[Mnky]

Of course it starts with Wemby...
.
Let me clear up something that makes me laugh tbh but seems to upset a lot of people (I know it's childish but they deserve it ^^), I like Sochan and I'm too old to be a fanboy, the only player I've been a fanboy and emotional about in my life was MJ, but I was 10 to 16yo

Anything I say/write is never ever an attack on the kid, I wish everybody the best, it's irrelevant to me. Those are professional athletes paid more in a year than their parents in their lifetime. Perspective matters.

Wemby being the center of the project, of course by default, even if he's in the wrong, he's the one that matters and calls have to be made in his best interest. Is it fair? No. But it's how the business works and he's the one that'll be the most accountable to the medias and fans in the end so he deserves some privileges if we're honest.

Regarding Sochan, my positive posts seem to go unnoticed, I've been 99% complimentary since the start of the season. Like Wemby he's a very unorthodox player that needs a lot of work and patience. Timming sucks for him as much as for Wemby, both could've used a better roster to help them start their career than being surrounded by guys who have as much to learn.

That being said, I can't say anything else but what I see... Wemby and Sochan struggle on offense, we've seen it yesterday again with 2 straight sctions before Wemby was bench in the 1st (maybe what lead to the earlier than usual benching?) it's not a matter of who's right or wrong (obviously Wemby has a lot more responsabilities bc nobody, teammates included I'm sure, understand his offensive game and where he's supposed to be).

When Vic was on the bench against Utah I think, Sochan and Cp3 had an amazing P&R connection that we're all waiting to see from Wemby. They're just not the right compatible profiles to me. Even if they love each other

I don't pretend to have the solution, I just point out what I see. Then we can disagree and discuss without going at each other's throat :lol

Oh Sochan definitely has plenty to work on. It's not all on Vic, but he is super inconsistent. He plays every game like he's bipolar and then team has to change their whole approach based on what Wemby shows up that day. That's definitely not easy.

But like I said they're all young and I think trending the right way. I think the spurs as a whole look a ton better if Wemby is shooting decent. He's had a horrible shooting season so far but he's getting the looks he wants. Once those start falling, I think the team makes more sense in it's approach. The team is being built for wemby to be a perimeter player. It's what he wants. If he shoots NBA average, the Spurs record looks a lot different. Their defense has been great. Just figuring out that offense now.

Next year's draft picks will likely change it up even more. As long as the defense keeps trending the right way, I'm cool with the bumps and bruises on offense during the growing seasons.

[SouthernFried]

Could you imagine what you could get trading Wemby?

No...no...no. I don't mean I want to Trade Wemby. Not at all. But, could you imagine how many great players teams would give up for him? We could probably get a full top tier playoff roster for him. Not that I would do that...nope. No way. But, wow...

Tho, this dumbass F/O would probably try and get a bunch of 2030 draft picks for him.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Sochan isn't a center tho and even if Pop sees Wemby as (in part imo) a perimeter player, he also is the center. You csn't use traditional cops with someone so unique. If Sochan could shoot they could alternate inside/out but Sochan can't meaning Wemby will get either stuck outside or always in traffic inside.

Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.

I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.

It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.

Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman. No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.

U are the smartest dude in here... Everything you said is a hundred percent correct

[Kawhi Duncan]

Oh Sochan definitely has plenty to work on. It's not all on Vic, but he is super inconsistent. He plays every game like he's bipolar and then team has to change their whole approach based on what Wemby shows up that day. That's definitely not easy.

But like I said they're all young and I think trending the right way. I think the spurs as a whole look a ton better if Wemby is shooting decent. He's had a horrible shooting season so far but he's getting the looks he wants. Once those start falling, I think the team makes more sense in it's approach. The team is being built for wemby to be a perimeter player. It's what he wants. If he shoots NBA average, the Spurs record looks a lot different. Their defense has been great. Just figuring out that offense now.

Next year's draft picks will likely change it up even more. As long as the defense keeps trending the right way, I'm cool with the bumps and bruises on offense during the growing seasons.

Ok is as young as the Spurs, yet their coaches don't have them playing like idiots... Sochan will never be a good shooter, and the longer we keep him next to bic in hopes that he does, the longer Vic will be inconsistent and shooting a shit ton of threes because he can't get enough space to do anything else

[Pauleta14]

U are the smartest dude in here... Everything you said is a hundred percent correct

Thx mate but it a matter of opinion in here tbh, some think I'm a white supremacist hater using an alt to pretend I'm from europe to shit on the Dems :lol

[Mnky]

Ok is as young as the Spurs, yet their coaches don't have them playing like idiots... Sochan will never be a good shooter, and the longer we keep him next to bic in hopes that he does, the longer Vic will be inconsistent and shooting a shit ton of threes because he can't get enough space to do anything else

Victor wants those 3s my guy.

Victor has had plenty of great looks. His shot is just one of the worse in league currently. Hoping it's just a phase.

[John B]

Are you sure Wemby is better off without Sochan? :lmao:lmao

[Pauleta14]

Are you sure Wemby is better off without Sochan? :lmao:lmao

You're probably trolling, if not you need to learn to identify causations and correlations mate ;)

There are a lot of stuff going very wrong, don't be conveniently selective

[ambchang]

You're probably trolling, if not you need to learn to identify causations and correlations mate ;)

There are a lot of stuff going very wrong, don't be conveniently selective

Like taking one game bad wemby game out from a season and 5 games of sochan playing well with wemby.

[Raven]

this aged like bacteria

[Pauleta14]

Like taking one game bad wemby game out from a season and 5 games of sochan playing well with wemby.

Hey Karen!

I was worried about you, how are u dealing with the nazis taking over your country? :lol

[exstatic]

Well, he’s on the bench now. Are you fucking happy?

[Pauleta14]

Well, he’s on the bench now. Are you fucking happy?

Are y having a lonely day bruv?

[Leetonidas]

My take is aging like milk already:lol oof

[ambchang]

Hey Karen!

I was worried about you, how are u dealing with the nazis taking over your country? :lol

So have trouble staying on topic.

And still don’t understand the term Karen.

And still didn’t know I’m not from the US.