Pop is starting to see it and it's not surprising he changed the rotations against Utah
Spurs were 47-23 when Sochan was on the bench with Wemby on the court. Jeremy kills the spacing and helps opponents pack around Wemby
Tom Haberrstroh shares this pov around the 26'
Tom Haberstroh
Tom Haberstroh
Last edited by Pauleta14; 11-01-2024 at 07:32 PM.
Yeah. Notice last night Pop is staggering the two. Not to dog pile on the dude because he plays hard but he’s in the way. He’s occupying space that ideally you would want Wemby to play in.
When Vassell is back, curious to see if they start playing Barnes at the 4 along side Wemby with Vassell at 2/3.
This isn't a thread to on Sochan btw, I like a lot of things he does but I think being with the 2nd unit would make a lot more sense, more spacing for Wemby and also to help compensate Collins or Mamu's defensive liabilities with the bench unit.
+ could touch his ego and make him wanna fight to get this starting job back
Would like to see mamu get more play time with wemby.Both sochan and wemby being bad at outside shooting just
is so akward.At least one of them gotta make outside shots.
Sochan has played well to start the year but yeah it's becoming increasingly obvious that he just doesn't fit in a lineup with Wemby. He'd honestly be best served as a small C off the bench in place of Collins useless ass
Sochan is the main point of attack defender. Unless Vassell takes on that role, I don't see him moving to the second unit
I simply just don't see a future for Sochan unless he develops a respectable 3 point shot. Winning in the modern NBA requires spacing and 5 out MINIMUM 4 out offense (4 out only works when the 1 is the center)
We're still so early in the season that single games can swing stats by a ton. For example, Collins and Wemby basically switched places in on-off/plus-minus stats just off last night's match. It's going to take five to seven more games for the stats to start to settle, and we'll have to get up to about the quarter mark before they become large enough to do any math with. The guy in the video is using one game where the Spurs played well below expectations for a half and then made a run in the second half to extrapolate trends. Last year, Sochan was Wemby's third most successful pairing. Last year, Wemby's worst partner was Wesley -- this year it's third-best. Things are very unstable.
Yes, there are real point of concern. The Spurs have collected too many players who are bad AND reluctant shooters, and that's making the decent shooters with high variance look worse their their down games. That's not defensible.
However, I do think it's overblown. Paul and Barnes are both shooting well this year, and Champ is probably the best they're going to get until Vassell comes back. Once Devin is back, it should be good shooting. The swing factor is going to be if Sochan is cross-guarded like he was in the games prior to last night. I think it's very irresponsible to take last night's game as a referendum on spacing rather than the difference between Victor being guarded by Kessler rather than Brooks and Williams. In those other games, Sochan was pulling the opposing center out of the paint with his movement. That was undeniably a positive move for spacing, but Victor struggled against guys who could defend on the perimeter.
The big question is if there's a way to prevent cross-matches without Sochan on the floor. Like would replacing Sochan with Vassell mean the opposing team would be unwilling to put a wing on Wemby? If that does work, then it's possible that a Paul, Vassell, Champagnie, Barnes, Wembanyama lineup really is the way to go. If they're willing to put their center on a forward, though, I'm not sure it'll have the improvement expressed by this video.
This is just a classic example of trying to find a way to blame Victor's struggles on other people so you don't have to acknowledge that he's not ready yet. I'm talking about the video here rather than the OP. Sochan has issues and needs to shape up or be upgraded. But there's no magic that's going to stop games like the second Houston and OKC games from happening.
As a starter I agree
But in the league, he has a future as a plug in versatile defender.
When you see Dunn with Phoenix getting a decent 3 out of nowhere, Sochan is only 21 and a lot can still happen with a good work ethic (and maybe a talented shooting coach?)
i think the spacing is not that bad. paul, champagnie (until vassell is bac), barnes, and vic are all shooting threats. having one guy in sochan on the floor isnt really a killer, especially when hes reasonably adept at driving to take advantage of open space. he's also been defending pretty well man to man this year (doncic and sga matchups were handled well). maybe the spacing has looked a little worse with champagnie going through a mini slump, but again... vassell should be more consistent anyway
i do think ultimately only one of castle/sochan can start, unless one of them (more likely castle) shows dramatic improvement in their outside shooting. teams being able to go under castle screens AND bring help from sochan's side is a lot to overcome.
castle is a long ways from being a starting caliber PG. and yeah, if he gets to that point where he simply has to play, then sochan probably does need to move to the bench. with the current roster, that would involve mamu starting alongside wemby.
Sochan's game is around the rim, he'll always bring his defender closer to Wemby and make it easier for the opp the double or more or forcing Vic to settle on the perimeter to avoid the traffic.
It's basic logic and unavoidable as long as Jeremy can't shoot.
My favorite part of the video is when he said the Spurs need to get rid of Zach Collins and play Mamu over him.
Mamu is pretty awful at defense. We JUST started trending upward. Do we have to give that back?
I like him as a change of pace, where he comes in, scrambles up their defense using motion and setting picks, hits a few shots, and sits down before the knew what hit them, or get an oppo to exploit him at the other end.
Is Collins good at defense? I might be missing something.
All I see that the Spurs have a net rating of -20 when he's on the floor and +32 when Mamu is on the floor.
Bingo. Collins isn't exactly a defensive stalwart, and the only good thing he does on offense is passing which Mamu can also do.
He also wastes a possession every single time he shoots a three-pointer...any team is willing to let him take that shot which is why he is always wide- ing-open and he still misses.
Meanwhile, Mamu is averaging 50% from three in his limited minutes this season, and basically has the same 3P% as Zach for their NBA careers.
Last edited by Dex; 11-01-2024 at 08:48 PM.
By this logic, centers would make it impossible for anyone to operate. We already know there are plenty of non-shooting centers who work just fine in the modern NBA. Victor is a perimeter player, apparently by the explicit desire of the coaching staff. He doesn't require that the paint be empty like he were a low-post player. Even as a driver, Sochan could space the floor just fine from the dunker spot. He doesn't need to be on the perimeter.
There are three dimensions to spacing (really four, but the last one doesn't especially matter in this conversation), there's around the three-point line, from the three-point line toward the basket (and outward away from the basket outside of the corners) and there's time (the last one is height/release point). It's way more complicated than taking a screen shot and seeing who's standing where. Sochan and Wemby are not as bad of a pairing as last night suggested, and we have plenty of data to support that. But it's likely that Sochan could've been benched against Houston and OKC and the Spurs get beat down just as badly if not worse while Wemby struggles.
Wemby's struggled because he has exploitable weaknesses. While I know you're not one of those who can't admit that, the folks in that podcast very much seem like they are, and they're pushing a narrative that doesn't actually align with the data, relying on one anomalous game as a cudgel to get their point over the finish line. Yes, the Spurs need to upgrade their roster, yes Sochan needs to get better, and yes, the Spurs need better shooting. But no, Sochan is not Wemby's kryptonite, because Wemby is not Superman. He's a kid growing up and trying to learn how to turn his outrageous talent into actualized success.
As for Sochan...his game may be chaotic and his three-point shot looks broken right now, but I feel like he has been the most consistent player on both offense and defense so far in this young season in terms of results...so moving him to the bench seems like a bit of a stretch.
Good players learn to play together and work with one another.
Sochan isn't a center tho and even if Pop sees Wemby as (in part imo) a perimeter player, he also is the center. You csn't use traditional cops with someone so unique. If Sochan could shoot they could alternate inside/out but Sochan can't meaning Wemby will get either stuck outside or always in traffic inside.
Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.
I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.
It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.
Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman. No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.
Sochan isn't in this category tho.
He's still in the "potentially good" level
It doesn't seem like the Spurs want Wemby to set up inside. I think it's important to note that centers can totally still exist when guards that drive and wings that slash. Traditional spacing for a PnR has the PF sit on the weakside block, which is known as the dunker spot. That is because you want there to be a predictable place for the help to come from and an easy way to punish that spot. So the handler and the roll-man are moving toward the basket. The roll-man's defender is dropping back to contain the handler. Then roll-man is running free, splitting the defender's attention. The dunker's man steps up to help the roll-man defender. The handler drops the ball off to the dunker for an easy score.
Nowadays there are tons of ways to space a PnR that take advantage of different skill-sets. My point is that having a guy like Sochan or Bassey in the game with Wemby makes more sense if they're near the basket, because that's where they're most threatening. If the guys want to give Jeremy open dunks, yes they can help on Wemby. That's a much easier pass to make than kicking it out on the perimeter.
I don't know that evidence supports that. Their pairing data suggests it's pretty mutual. I've talked quite a bit about Jeremy being mostly neutral against opposing centers, but you can be worse than neutral. Sochan also has better pairing data with Collins this year than with Wemby, but as I've said that data's still way too noisy.Right now Sochan is mostly the one benefiting from their association bc of how Wemby attracts defenses and his passing abilities. It's more a cost than a gain the other way around.
Franchise players don't become subordinate to lesser talents, even if that talent doesn't fit them well. Giannis and Robinson are great examples of that. As mentioned, Wemby didn't prop up Sochan last year. This year, the Spurs seem to have game-planned a very co-dependent relationship between them. If we're able to get more games where the opponent doesn't cross-guard Wemby, we may be able to see how successful Sochan is at scoring against guys his own size. He did not do well yesterday, but it was one game. We'll need more data to see if it was mostly due to the matchup or him just not playing well that night.I'm not exhonerating Wemby from his poor play/decisions, there are plenty of stuff he needs to works on, but he's the Franchise and a special player that deserves to have a roster adapted to him, not becoming a role player to help compensate his teammates limitations as we see way too often.
You say that with a ton of confidence, but it's not really what was born out in the data. Out of Victor's 10-most used lineups last year, the lineups with the highest and third-highest net-ratings featured both Jones and Sochan. While Tre shot decently well after becoming a starter last year, no one on this board would consider him a spacer. I am considering last year's versions Johnson, Branham and Champ spacers, even though a lot of STers would consider them inadequate. In terms of four-man units, Sochan was in the second, third and fifth through 10th units. In terms of trios, Sochan, Jones and Wemby ranked as Victor's third-best trio.It's on Pop mainly, but it's also a matter of associations/complementarities and Wemby never shines more than surrounded by shooters with spacing.
In short, I don't actually think there's as much evidence for that point as you assumed.
I am not talking about your view point. I said in each post in this thread that I understand you're being more cautious and realistic in your projection. I'm not attacking you.Lastly I used the word Kryptonite bc it was used in the podcast and as reference, not an endorcement of Wemby as superman
My point is that we DON'T all know. The gist of that segment is "Why is Wemby inconsistent?" They felt the need to make up something that's not really well supported at all to justify why Wemby isn't the guy they were expecting rather than consider if their expectations were wrong and even unfair to make in the first place. Folks like them have zero interest in living in reality where GOAT talents take several years to develop. They want to churn that cycle is a finished product who only struggles because everyone sucks around him. That quickly turns into someone suggesting he ask out and then the soulless media ecosystem churning that baseless speculation into "rumors" that Wemby wants out. Then you have Stephen A Smith going on air talking about how Miami, LAL or NYK is such a better destination if Wemby wants to win or how the Spurs could at LEAST trade a million picks for Trae Young or Markkanen if they don't want to make their star unhappy.No need to remind us in each of your posts what we all know and say all the time, Wemby has a long road to go and isn't perfect.
It's a gross cycle, man, and it really does start with folks blaming everyone else but Wemby and his perfectly normal inexperience for why he has a bad game. They even said in that video that Chet "Has a better supporting cast around him" as if Chet is the star and not the support for SGA. It's bull , and it's bull with a purpose. People buying into that bull , even just the initial premises, sucks.
^^
Let me answer you tomorrow, it's 3am here and I'm watcing Nuggets-Wolves
Shooting is bad but Sochan isn't the main reason. The castle and Wesley combo is a dumpster fire. Does not help that Collins and Johnson are no longer three point threats and have gone backwards in that area of development. Replacing Wesley with Jones isn't going to help either.
Unfortunately the spurs might need to lean on Branham instead of Jones or Castle, paired with Julian in that second unit. That will sure displease spurs fans.
Kevin took a on Keldon, Pop, and Collins while saying Mamu should play more
Anti sniff crew membership confirmed
WOW, it's like, if you put people who shoot around Wemby, he can't be so easily quintuple teamed? WHO KNEW?!?!? I mean, even POPOVICH and WRIGHT couldn't figure this out, guise. And we're clearly, clearly, clearly not on their level, at all, tbh fwiw imo.
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