30 games in, what are everyone's thoughts?

[LeBowen]

15-15 with a fairly easy schedule. Probably won't get more than 35 wins without a trade or two.

Mitch taking over was obviously the biggest moment of the season and he's done fairly well in these unexpected circumstances, can't expect a rookie coach to be perfect.
As for the players, a lot of things are more clear.

Wemby - We all knew he'd be great, but I don't think many of us expected him to be playing like a legit top5 player in the league, top10 at worst. Not only that, but he always rises to the occasion in big moments. We need to get him help asap because he's ready to compete.

Sochan - I was a hater this summer, but he's looked like a different player this year. Still without a functional jumpshot, but he's playing with purpose, makes better decisions and is often our second best player on offense which says a lot about everyone else.

Devin - I expected him to have a way better time this season because he was obviously not comfortable with the creator role he had to do in previous seasons, but he's been garbage. Defense keeps getting worse, inconsistent offensively and plays like a true Kobe stan. We need to get rid of him.

Keldon - Tank commander. Awful in every aspect of the game.

Collins - We're lucky he canceled himself, disaster of a player and a waste of cap space.

Tre - Still the same, useful backup point guard. It's just that he can't play most of the time and then he becomes useless. We need to figure out what's the plan. Either offer him a cheap deal as a long-term backup or trade him, no point in even having him in the rotation if he won't get another deal.

Champagnie - Developed into a role player every team needs. Won't ever be anything more than that, but he's arguably more useful on offense than any other SG/SF/PF we have because he's got shooter's movements and is always in the right place. Unlike our other shooters, not a turnstile on defense. He's got to play at least 25mpg, that's how bad the rest of the roster is.

Branham - Is there anything to say?

Wesley - Actually showed some flashes, but there's no future in the league for a point guard with no offense whatsoever. I actually wouldn't mind keeping him on a minimum deal as a third stringer for emergencies.

Mamukelashvili - Fan favorite, obviously a turnstile on defense, but at least he has some IQ and makes the right plays, it's just that he's painfully unathletic. At this point I'd play him over Keldon. Rather have a bad player with high IQ than a negative IQ idiot.

Bassey - The other fan favorite, good as an energy guy in short spurts, but Mitch obviously doesn't trust him and would rather play Jeremy as a backup big.

Sidy - Waste of cap space, another player with no offense whatsoever.

Castle - The best pick we could've made, but we can't really have good lineups on the floor due to the general lack of spacing on the team and his lack of jumpshot. Then he starts forcing it inside and it looks ugly.

CP3 - Aside from Wemby, the biggest reason for this season's improvement, but he's clearly on his last legs. A perfect floor general, but he's not taking even 1 shot in the paint per game. When your point guard can't penetrate, the offense gets stagnant. Still, can't ask for more from a 39 year old.

Barnes - Disappearing acts are annoying. We don't need him to score 20, but he can't just not take a shot for entire quarters. Obviously not a concern because he's just a temporary solution.


Overall it's been a positive season so far, but some changes are needed. If we're not going to make trades to improve the roster, there's no point in playing some of these players so much. With this roster we likely won't even make the play-in, let alone win games in it.
Castle has to play at least 25 minutes every single game. More when he gets it going. Devin and Keldon had more than enough years to show what they're made of. If we're not making trades to improve, then we might aswell develop players with upside.
Mitch made a lot of good changes, Collins being removed from the rotation being the most important one. But now it's time to take the next step and deal with Devin who's been a huge negative over these past few games.
CP3/Castle/Champ/Jeremy/Wemby. Yeah, I'm the first one who'll say Castle/Jeremy can't play together, but we'd at least have great defense. Tell them they must take open shots, fuck it. It's not like Barnes and Devin are contributing on high volume.

[Dex]

We're alright. If anything, we are ahead of schedule, all things considered.

Paul and Barnes aren't going to be around forever. Neither will some of the dead weight contracts (looking at you Collins, Johnson, Branham, and Wesley)

We aren't going to win the championship in the next year or two, but I think we are still positioned well to build going forward and it's fun to actually watch competitive games again

[Robz4000]

Think they finish with 40 wins, which is better than I expected. Problem is there's only three or four players outside Wemby worth keeping going forward.

[timtonymanu]

Preparing Wemby to have an outstanding season while he watches the playoffs from home.

Spurs are better than expected but that should be more incentive to start the path to winning sooner. I really hope the deadweight from our team will be gone beginning this offseason. Not just finding a second star but also improving the bench. The Spurs have a lot of work to do. But yes this is easily the best season they’ve had since 2019.

[Mugen]

They're not as good as their record suggests. I mean they are but in the sense that CP3 has probably accounted for about 5 of those wins and he's not in the long term plans.

Wemby showing he's generational after the flukey, slow start is nice. So is Sochan showing improvement.

But Vassell not making a leap pretty much negates those gains.

I also have strong doubts that Castle ever becomes anything more than a good role player.

They still need a strong #2 next to Wemby and I think it's probably gonna have to come via trade in the next year or so.

[TekXX]

Easy schedule so far and i agree that CP3 has helped give structure to our mostly poor talent. I look forward to the Spurs making big moves next offseason.

[scott]

Very pleased with this season so far. 15-15 is well above expectation. That's the good news.

The bad news is that it puts us in the worst possible place, the 11th seed in the west. There is no reason to continue down a path that takes us to the 11 seed, and it's basketball malpractice to allow that to happen. The front office should wrap up Christmas dinner with their families and then gather around in a meeting room and figure out a lane. You either start making moves for a playoff push, or you start making moves to build for the future (either via tank, or acquiring young promising talent, more draft picks, etc).

Maintaining the status quo would be a grave mistake, unfortunately it's one I fully expect us to take. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Blizzardwizard]

My thoughts are I hope PATFO aren't as emotionally attached to Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson as SpursTalk/Spurs Twitter.


:cry but they've been here a really long time :cry

:cry but they're so good in the locker room :cry

:cry I swear they're gonna develop soon bro just wait bro :cry

[mo7888]

Pleased with the season and think we are a play-in team as currently constructed. I also think with a pretty decent trade that we could be a playoff team that could compete with anyone in the west.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Need a lot of changes to the roster. Horrific perimeter defense game after game. Need way better bigs outside of wemby, need more 3 point shooters, and for the love of god get wemby a supporting cast.

We need to make some moves in the summer

[timtonymanu]

My thoughts are I hope PATFO aren't as emotionally attached to Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson as SpursTalk/Spurs Twitter.


:cry but they've been here a really long time :cry

:cry but they're so good in the locker room :cry

:cry I swear they're gonna develop soon bro just wait bro :cry

Which is why I avoid Reddit. Those losers will defend Dev and Keldon to death with shit reasons like you just listed. They really want Wemby to play with these scrubs for the long term. :lol

[LeBowen]

start making moves to build for the future (either via tank, or acquiring young promising talent, more draft picks, etc).

If Wemby is healthy, we can't tank and it would be a huge disservice to him.

We can't really get picks with anyone on the roster other than Devin if we assume Castle and Jeremy aren't up for trade.
And we'd be better off using Devin in a trade for a second star.

I see no solution other than making a couple of trades to actually make the roster competitive. We don't have to blow the entire load right away, but we'd be way better with a legit 3-D wing and a backup big.
Second star trade can wait until the summer.

[onechance87]

Not looking good.It will still be the same exact same roster after next year when paul and barnes are gone.I called it that we should not exend
branham and wesley and we do the opposite.Now look at them.Keldon is terrible and looks like vassell going that route as well.Still not sold
on sochan fit with wemby and hope we dont make the mistake of offering a big contract like we vassell,collins,keldon and so on.
This whole roster needs to be upgraded like alot of us called for this past summer.

[rascal]

Very pleased with this season so far. 15-15 is well above expectation. That's the good news.

The bad news is that it puts us in the worst possible place, the 11th seed in the west. There is no reason to continue down a path that takes us to the 11 seed, and it's basketball malpractice to allow that to happen. The front office should wrap up Christmas dinner with their families and then gather around in a meeting room and figure out a lane. You either start making moves for a playoff push, or you start making moves to build for the future (either via tank, or acquiring young promising talent, more draft picks, etc).

Maintaining the status quo would be a grave mistake, unfortunately it's one I fully expect us to take. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Basically the same thing I said a couple of days ago you didn't agree with.

[spurs10]

Good call OP. Most important line I believe-

Wemby - We all knew he'd be great, but I don't think many of us expected him to be playing like a legit top5 player in the league, top10 at worst. Not only that, but he always rises to the occasion in big moments. We need to get him help asap because he's ready to compete.

Yes we can't squander Wemby's talent. Wonder if there is anything going on in the front office.

[itzsoweezee]

Spurs accumulated a ton of assets so that they can improve the roster even with wemby keeping the team out of the lottery. Any talk of tanking is nonsense. Push for a playin spot, unload a bad contract or two if possible, then push in those draft assets for Fox and Markkanen (or another big wing) in the offseason.

[Mal]

Spurs are ahead of schedule, they will be good going forward

[BatManu20]

It's not too late to #GagForFlagg tbh.

[Mr. Body]

At the top end of my projections, which was around .500.

There's been a lot of growth but clear patches that need to be filled. The young players are learning how to compete throughout various parts of a game. That's huge. At the present moment, trying to win games on the road, which is a difficult thing to do for youth.

Paul and Barnes won't be here forever, so there will be a dip, but adding vets clearly was the best call. The next steps are hard, but doable. This is where we need to be right now, the improvement is significant. I thought the range was 31-41 games and we'll get closer to the top range.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs accumulated a ton of assets so that they can improve the roster even with wemby keeping the team out of the lottery. Any talk of tanking is nonsense. Push for a playin spot, unload a bad contract or two if possible, then push in those draft assets for Fox and Markkanen (or another big wing) in the offseason.

This. Well, part of it. Tanking would be stupid. Right now is Chris Paul academy time. If they need to jump some spots to grab who they need in this draft, they have the assets.

Paying through the nose for Markannen or Fox's next contract isn't something they'll do.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Which is why I avoid Reddit. Those losers will defend Dev and Keldon to death with shit reasons like you just listed. They really want Wemby to play with these scrubs for the long term. :lol

the reddit homers are vomit inducing

[RC_Drunkford]

We need to have a clear #2 option by the start of next season. Weather that is Fox, Markkanen or whoever we clearly need that player ASAP. Vassell looks like hot garbage. I hope that changes within this season, but I have my doubts.

All in all this is a good season so far considering that our team has been ass for about 5 years now.

[BatManu20]

Spend this offseason Trading for De'Aaron Fox, and signing Brandon Ingram, locking up your cap space for years to come. Who says no?

[LeBowen]

Spend this offseason Trading for De'Aaron Fox and signing Brandon Ingram, locking up your cap space for years to come. Who says no?

Yeah, let's put Fox and Ingram into the same category just to try and prove your dumb point.

[Leetonidas]

Wemby is amazing. Sochan is progressing nicely. Castle looks like a keeper and future long term combo guard for us. CP3 influence has been nice. Champ is exceeding his value.

Everyone else either stinks or has been underwhelming/disappointing.

[Raven]

I like to believe we can get to 50, but it will take a better rotation.

[Jordan Jackson]

My thoughts are I hope PATFO aren't as emotionally attached to Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson as SpursTalk/Spurs Twitter.


:cry but they've been here a really long time :cry

:cry but they're so good in the locker room :cry

:cry I swear they're gonna develop soon bro just wait bro :cry

Most front offices do not like to admit they were wrong about players they drafted.

The Spurs were wrong about some of these guys - they need to admit it and move on. Like someone mentioned above - they probably won’t because they think if they give it just one more season they’ll be proven right.

[scott]

Basically the same thing I said a couple of days ago you didn't agree with.

I recognize you have a learning disability, so I'll take it easy on you.

Your take was that the Spurs had to tank, because getting a top pick was the only way they were going to get better, which is incorrect and anyone with a brain can disagree with, because it's clearly wrong.

[onechance87]

Spend this offseason Trading for De'Aaron Fox, and signing Brandon Ingram, locking up your cap space for years to come. Who says no?

we may have to attempt to sign ingram if we dont trade for another star player.He would be our second best player after wemby,Thats how much trash
vassell has become.And i dont think much of ingram at all.

[Spurminator]

This is about where I thought they'd be and where I thought they should be. They're good enough to start playing close games against quality opponents and have meaningful experience in clutch situations. They've lost some close games they probably should have won, but last year we lose today's game (for example) by 20+.

[TheChillFactor]

we have entered the stage of team development where we are losing to more veteran teams because we're young and make more mistakes than they do.

this will last a year or so before its really cleaned up but its just something we have to go through.

[Mr. Body]

we may have to attempt to sign ingram if we dont trade for another star player.He would be our second best player after wemby,Thats how much trash
vassell has become.And i dont think much of ingram at all.

You have the shittiest takes on the site, congrats. Takes a lot of effort.

[Mr. Body]

we have entered the stage of team development where we are losing to more veteran teams because we're young and make more mistakes than they do.

this will last a year or so before its really cleaned up but its just something we have to go through.

Pretty much. Gotta learn how to win those possessions. It'll come. This game would have been an easy Dub if Bridges didn't go hog wild. Knicks couldn't hang, tbh.

[BatManu20]

Yeah, let's put Fox and Ingram into the same category just to try and prove your dumb point.

I was being sarcastic dumbass. Thought was obvious.

[onechance87]

You have the shittiest takes on the site, congrats. Takes a lot of effort.

lol....

[Bruno]

I think things are looking damn great for Spurs right now.

Spurs have a core of 4 young players with Wembanyama, Castle, Vassell and Sochan to build around:
- Wembanyama is on the path to become the best player in the league in a couple of years.
- Castle looks awesome for a rookie. He should become a high quality starting PG. BTW, his rookie season is statistically almost identical to Fox rookie season.
- Sochan has been a very pleasant surprise. This kind of low resource versatile player is very useful to teams.
- Vassell, who is coming back from a big injury (again), has been more of a mixed bag. Given what he did last season, how outside shooting is important in today's NBA and his descending contract, I think he still is a valuable place.

In addition to these 4 players, Champagnie is looking more and more as a quality rotation player. 3 and D are always needed.

Rest of the roster doesn't really matter.

Spurs are a point where it isn't crazy to say that they can fully rebuild without a major trade and/or FA signing. With a good 2025 draft, they might basically be done with their rebuild.

These players are very young so it will take some time. 26/27 is a good estimate to when Spurs will start to be a contender.

[Spurs Brazil]

15-15 is better than I expected.

Wemby has been great. I also like the improvement play of Sochan and Champagnie. And Castle looks good for a rookie

CP3 is playing very well but I expected more from Barnes.

Vassell has been disappointing. If he's playing at the same level of last season we would have some more wins but he's worst, especially his defense. I hope the more he plays the better he can get, maybe he needs more time because of the injury.

Spurs really need to trade Keldon Johnson. He's still playing bad defense but this season his shot is gone. Trade him or get him out of the rotation.

[BackHome]

Better then I thought but this team is still showing it needs a massive influx of talent- What can will dramatically impact our future success is if Vassell can not stay healthy or his current play continues. At some point soon Spurs are going to have to make some moves like Keldon or Tre as I just don’t see a future with them.

[chubbs]

lol wemby
lol soft

[spursgu]

lol wemby
lol soft

what? Your other sad attempt of a thread wasn’t getting hits so you decide to post your bullshit in this thread. Shut up already, dude. Spend your Christmas like a regular person would. Oh wait that’s not what you are.

[scott]

CP3 seems less interested in the "young team" excuses.

Great vet to have to make sure that these guys learn from these last two losses.

"I think we're just going to that point where all that young guy stuff gotta go out of the window. You know, we pros, just like everybody else. And there's grit and will that you gotta have in this league in order to figure out ways to win those games. You know, especially on the road when we are the only ones that's cheering for us or what not and that builds character.
We got 2 games left on this trip and we gotta make sure we approach them with proper fear."

[KingKev]

CP3 seems less interested in the "young team" excuses.

Great vet to have to make sure that these guys learn from these last two losses.

"I think we're just going to that point where all that young guy stuff gotta go out of the window. You know, we pros, just like everybody else. And there's grit and will that you gotta have in this league in order to figure out ways to win those games. You know, especially on the road when we are the only ones that's cheering for us or what not and that builds character.
We got 2 games left on this trip and we gotta make sure we approach them with proper fear."

He is spot on. Being young is no excuse for not securing some of those loose balls. That was just lack of effort and fight.

[DAF86]

We're fine. We have to bare in mind that nobody thought we would be .500 30 games into the season. We're way ahead of schedule.

-Wemby is already top 10 in the league, might even be top 5.

-I might be able to get behind the Fox move for next season, tbh.

-We need to add shooting, shooting, and then a little more shooting.

[Mr. Body]

He is spot on. Being young is no excuse for not securing some of those loose balls. That was just lack of effort and fight.

Nah, those just bounced the wrong way. Paul is right, but the Spurs almost beat both a fully loaded Sixers team at home that just beat the Cs on the road and a very good Knicks team on the road. They're almost there.

Honestly the Knicks loss isn't the bad bounces in the last possession it's Wemby continuing his questionable shots in the clutch. Look great when they go down, but they're not good shots.

[LeBowen]

Nah, those just bounced the wrong way. Paul is right, but the Spurs almost beat both a fully loaded Sixers team at home that just beat the Cs on the road and a very good Knicks team on the road. They're almost there.

Honestly the Knicks loss isn't the bad bounces in the last possession it's Wemby continuing his questionable shots in the clutch. Look great when they go down, but they're not good shots.

He'll keep shooting those until we get another capable player.

[jesterbobman]

We're slightly better than I thought we'd be, though a lot more of that is Wemby than growth of the rest of the group (Vassell has taken a step back, Keldon stagnant, no Growth from Malaki / Blake, good steps from Sochan and Champaagnie.) Castle has serious questions about the shot, but he's very good defensively already and he can clearly be a PG.

That's a good sign for a title team. Most title teams are built around an A1 Absolute #1 star. Wemby has always seemed likely to get to that point, but he's really close as a 20 year old, he has obvious room to grow (strength, allowing bullying of mismatches, allowing him to keep his balance for rebounding etc, plus more gradual growth in passing vision and selection, shot selection (big growth from the first 5 games of the season) and learning how to be effective more off ball, trusting others to dribble and that the ball will find him.

[itzsoweezee]

Nah, those just bounced the wrong way. Paul is right, but the Spurs almost beat both a fully loaded Sixers team at home that just beat the Cs on the road and a very good Knicks team on the road. They're almost there.

Honestly the Knicks loss isn't the bad bounces in the last possession it's Wemby continuing his questionable shots in the clutch. Look great when they go down, but they're not good shots.

lol, will the dumbness ever end? Wemby was the only reason this was not a 20 point blowout. Literally the only real scorer on the entire roster, and he’s the only impactful defender on the whole team. But yeah, let’s blame that guy

[Spurs Homer]

Good call OP. Most important line I believe-

Wemby - We all knew he'd be great, but I don't think many of us expected him to be playing like a legit top5 player in the league, top10 at worst. Not only that, but he always rises to the occasion in big moments. We need to get him help asap because he's ready to compete.

Yes we can't squander Wemby's talent. Wonder if there is anything going on in the front office.

Speak for yourself…
anyone with eyes could see in wembys first preseason games in his rookie year and especially that preseason game at golden state where he demolished the warriors…

only thing that ever stopped wemby was his acclimating to the nba minutes/schedule

but if you had ever watched ANY basketball you could see he was/is the unicorn and will soon be the GOAT
as long as health permits

which is why i called for the garbage to be taken out LAST year (branham, vassell, zollins, champagnie, wesley,) and was in favor of spurs getting aggressive and acquiring stars..

it didnt matter if it was lillard, or markannen or any other free agents..and also picking TWO draft prospects instead of trading away #8

everyone here was posting the
“wemby will not be ready until his 4th or 5th season so we need to keep tanking” takes…
and
”duncan wasnt ready until this or that season so we need to be patient”

but wemby is ready now…

[Russ]

The Spurs' two best players are twenty years old.

Their main job is to keep Wembanyama -- on that front, the empty seats in the lower bowl are way more concerning than anything else.

[Dejounte]

Sochan and Champagnie have risen as keepers.

Castle is a guy who could end up as Wemby’s sidekick.

Thank heavens the Spurs are moving on from Collins.

Branham and Wesley might not be here for long either. The Spurs ride the trajectory of their players. Going from increasing minutes to no minutes at all is a very bad sign, and getting minutes back next year is against the odds for both of them.

I’m not as down on Vassell yet as others are. I’m not even a huge fan of his. He looks like a guy out there who just got traded to his new team. Very poor chemistry with others right now. If he’s still like this in 10 games, then I’ll start questioning.

Barnes is playing alright. He’s not hurting the team. People are low on him because he’s not standing out. I don’t know what people expected. He’s a role player. He’ll have his games where he doesn’t make a shot.

Keldon is by far the weakest link of the rotation and I can’t wait until they Collins him.

[LeBowen]

The Spurs' two best players are twenty years old.

Their main job is to keep Wembanyama -- on that front, the empty seats in the lower bowl are way more concerning than anything else.

Wemby's age doesn't matter. He'd have a legit chance to win MVP if he was on a contending roster.
Spurs need to enable him to compete. That's how you fill those seats.

[scott]

A lot of us felt Wemby was good enough to deserve better talent around him LAST SEASON, and he’s only even better and ahead of expectations now. He’s on the equivalent of an MLE contract. We have 2.5 years left of the gift of his rookie deal. I hope we take advantage of that.

[CGD]

Pleased with the outcome to date. The schedule does get harder so still thinking still mid to high 30 win team.

My 3 takes aways:

1. Victor is even more amazing than we thought. We’re so damn lucky.

2. Several decent potential “number 3” options for the future between Castle, Sochan, and Dev. Still early on Castle (who I love), but the other 2 aren’t THE “running mate.”

3. The team is clearly missing a “number 2.” Aside from tidying up the roster here and there, serious trade and draft planning need to be all about finding that player.

[SouthernFried]

Get rid of everyone except Wemby and Castle.

Keep CP3 as long as you can. I like Barnes too. Definitely get rid of gay fans favorite, Sochan.

I say that like the F/O knows how to pick up good talent.

[Rummpd]

Impressive start as they might improve and Wemby unreal. The acting coach is doing well. If could somehow make a trade get one more stronger player around Wemby could be dangerous team if makes playoff.

[sananspursfan21]

After the dust settles on a close loss where the mistakes are magnified, I’m pretty pleased. Last year was a chore to watch. I watched for Wemby highlights and not much more. This year, I’m actually counting the minutes til the next game. My biggest frustration is that I see the progress and we get glimpses of it, enough to see them slug it out against the best of em, but not enough to reliably win games against the top half of the league.

Wemby is seeing what he’s capable of at the moment. Sometimes experimenting to the point of madness, but I’m convinced he knows how to play. He’s just tinkering, not worried about the results as much as observing the process of it all. Sochan is forming a nice little oop tandem with Wemby and that’s darn near unstoppable. I’m excited for Castle to develop his shot a little more and grow in maturity. He’s already ahead of most rookies I’ve ever seen.

This team definitely needs more offense. We’ve got a lot of almost guys, but we need more sure thing guys. Watching the other games in the lineup, I still see a stark eye test difference between our guys and even the Sixers bench or the Mavs outside of Kyrie and Luka. Even their young guys just handle things differently. I’d love to see our FO slow up on the CIA stuff for a bit and just get the best talent that’s willing to submit to Wemby’s spotlight.

All in all though, I’m excited for the future. I really do believe in two years, a ring won’t be crazy talk.

[100%duncan]

Wemby - already made leaps and bounds of improvement from last year. Post-up game, better. 3pt shooting, better. Passing, better though hindered by CP's usage which is fine. Stamina, better. Defense, better.

Mitch - better than Pop. Although I think he overreacts sometimes. Like benching Bassey due to offensive deficiencies when it's clear we need rebounding. Benching Castle over Dev and Tre, although a big part is that it's hard to play Castle and Sochan together.

Castle - is doing all you can ask for from a rookie at this point. He needs to improve his finishing though and his FT shooting. I can live with the bad shooting from the 3 and mid-range as that was always his pain point, but if your game revolves around getting to the hoop you better be converting your lay-ups and freethrows.

Sochan - clearly part of the future. They have to make this work (talking about Castle and Sochan). You can't have this good of a 3rd year leap and not be a part of the future core.

Dev - he started his season well then has regressed afterwards. Par for the course for Devin unfortunately. I am done hoping he can be our #2 or even #3. Hopefully he can be used to get Fox.

Champ - I hated on him at the start of the season and now I am happily eating crow.

Keldon, Collins - garbage, waste of money, and space

Cissoko/Wesley/Branham - should be off my team immediately

CP3 and Barnes - They will have their good and bad moments given their age. They are playing and giving what is asked and expected of them. But obviously they are just stopgaps at this point.

Bassey/Mamu - Players that should have more playing time but are not given so.

Tre - is a solid NBA player. But he unfortunately doesn't have a place in this team.


I predicted a play-in showing before this season started and we are still on pace to do it.

[cutewizard]

Needs

More talent
More spunk
More defense
More shooting
More everything

[rankingtear]

Wemby-Sochan-Castle core is still 21 and under. We got good wings with size who can stretch defenses in Barnes-Champ-Devin to complement those 3 as well as the best game managers in CP3 and Tre to settle shit down without eating reps. It is perfectly built team for development. But it is still meant as a development team rather than a win now one.

[spursparker9]

Overall this team is definitely better than last year.

But being the #11 or #12 seed is painful.

I say we should give more mins to the confirmed core of the future (Wemby, Castle, Sochan)

[Tyronn Lue]

Spurs need more poise.
We saw tonight that Victor can rack up rebounds and points if his 3 is falling and he's excited to play. Contrast that against some of the lower rebound games.
Spurs need to decide who they are rolling with. After that it can be about winning. Right now it's about finding optimal starting group and bench, and the Spurs don't seem to have that figured out yet.
Harrison Barnes is worthless for intents and purposes. He has moments and some decent games, but he's filling a slot that someone with a future on the team could fill.

Maybe it's not smart to slow roll Victor, maybe he should be playing in a premier setting on a team that can attract names. It feels like Victor is doing charity work right now.

[J_Paco]

Sochan and Champagnie have risen as keepers.

Castle is a guy who could end up as Wemby’s sidekick.

Thank heavens the Spurs are moving on from Collins.

Branham and Wesley might not be here for long either. The Spurs ride the trajectory of their players. Going from increasing minutes to no minutes at all is a very bad sign, and getting minutes back next year is against the odds for both of them.

I’m not as down on Vassell yet as others are. I’m not even a huge fan of his. He looks like a guy out there who just got traded to his new team. Very poor chemistry with others right now. If he’s still like this in 10 games, then I’ll start questioning.

Barnes is playing alright. He’s not hurting the team. People are low on him because he’s not standing out. I don’t know what people expected. He’s a role player. He’ll have his games where he doesn’t make a shot.

Keldon is by far the weakest link of the rotation and I can’t wait until they Collins him.

The last part is hilarious cause Keldon is still your avatar. LMAO

I agree on all your points and especially on the part about Keldon. I think he'd be much better off on another team where his lack of a 'true' position isn't so obvious. Plus, I hope whenever we move on from him that regains his outside shooting touch. It's been depressing to see his two biggest attributes (3-point shooting & hustle/rebounding) seemingly go away.

[J_Paco]

lol, will the dumbness ever end? Wemby was the only reason this was not a 20 point blowout. Literally the only real scorer on the entire roster, and he’s the only impactful defender on the whole team. But yeah, let’s blame that guy

I'm not going to put the loss on him, but better shot selection in 'clutch situtations' doesn't hurt.

All the three-pointers look great when they go in and can be 'backbreakers' but can also help to seal a loss (like today).

He was amazing today, but he's also by far the best player (which means he carries the biggest burden) and shouldn't be above criticism.

[sfernald]

Why is everyone feeling so fucking good just cause we are at around 500 when our competition at like 22-5? Big failure! Need to bring in a real #2 for Wemby right away.

[sfernald]

I'm not going to put the loss on him, but better shot selection in 'clutch situtations' doesn't hurt.

All the three-pointers look great when they go in and can be 'backbreakers' but can also help to seal a loss (like today).

He was amazing today, but he's also by far the best player (which means he carries the biggest burden) and shouldn't be above criticism.

His shot selection is ASS period. Team is going nowhere until he realizes that taking. A 30 ft 3 pt shot at the beginning of the shot clock is not the way to win a championship period.

[spursistan]

Already feels eerily similar to the 2004-2010 Cavs era..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gfqn-WFaIAArHd3?format=jpg&name=medium

[Pauleta14]

CP3 seems less interested in the "young team" excuses.

Great vet to have to make sure that these guys learn from these last two losses.

"I think we're just going to that point where all that young guy stuff gotta go out of the window. You know, we pros, just like everybody else. And there's grit and will that you gotta have in this league in order to figure out ways to win those games. You know, especially on the road when we are the only ones that's cheering for us or what not and that builds character.
We got 2 games left on this trip and we gotta make sure we approach them with proper fear."

Cp3 is our main hope tbh, Wemby is too young and still learning to be a leader.

Not only on his impact on the players but the FO/coaches as well who's gotten way too comfortable losing.

[Pauleta14]

Why is everyone feeling so fucking good just cause we are at around 500 when our competition at like 22-5? Big failure! Need to bring in a real #2 for Wemby right away.

This.

The Spurs fanbase has mastered the art of coping smh

[Fireball]

Wemby is great for his age. He has stretches (especially his first stint in the first quarter) where he can look embarassingly bad on offense because he is bricking threes, falls over his feet and turns the ball over in a post up. He draws so much attention that he himself is our best lob passer. Defensively he is the best in the league.

Sochan is the second best player. Last night he probably had some eggnogs prior to the game, but despite fumbling and stumbling he had a very good game. His energy on the boards is invaluable and lets hope he takes more chances to shoot threes like he did versus the Knicks.

Vassell is a disappointment. Just because of his injury history I have no faith he will ever get back into a groove. Last year he and Wemby had some kind of two-man-game ... its nonexistant this season.

Castle looks solid, but you can see that he is on scouting reports now so his drives to the basket already get more difficult. But its too early to evaluate his value to the team.

KJ sucks. He once was the best three point shooter on the team. What a regression.

Barnes needs to go the bench. Way too inconsistent.

Champagnie plays well enough. Keep him for what he costs.

CP3 brought stability to the team, but even he is not able to give Victor lots of easy baskets. I do not know if Victor is just not a good roler *shrug* or if CP3 does not draw enough respect in the pick and roll game. Wish prime Manu could play the pick and roll with Wemby.

Blake Wesley is the one player I would give some playing time again. Brings energy and defends.

Do not care about the rest tbh. Yes, Mamu is a loser as well.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Good start to the season!


Vassells only played 15 games Amid injuries .... way more worried about his injuries than his game

[SPURt]

It’s been a fun season so far, this Spurs team can beat any team on any night, nice to be able to watch competitive games and possibly make the playoffs. It’s weird how so many posters are upset that the Spurs aren’t dominating the league. I watched Tim Duncan not win a championship almost 75% of the seasons he played and it was awesome. Enjoy this ride with Wemby a little more.

My biggest surprise of the season is how much I love CP3. I had never watched him consistently and he isn’t a highlight real type player, getting to watch him every game in a season and seeing his greatness has been a lot fun. It’s bittersweet because CP3 is so close to the end of his playing career.

[Spursfanfromafar]

If the Spurs need consistent 3P shooting they should give Riley Minix a look-in, at least from the bench. He is heating up the G-League and the leads it in Win Shares and a scorching 43% 3P shooting. He should be way better than Keldon and Branham, I am sure.

[Russ]

If the Spurs need consistent 3P shooting they should give Riley Minix a look-in, at least from the bench. He is heating up the G-League and the leads it in Win Shares and a scorching 43% 3P shooting. He should be way better than Keldon and Branham, I am sure.

Minix traveled with the team to NY (you could see him sitting behind the bench).

[Spursfanfromafar]

Minix traveled with the team to NY (you could see him sitting behind the bench).

Aah. I didn't notice. Thats good to know. Here's hoping he gets a quick look-in. Keldon's minutes at least need to be cut.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Sochan and Champagnie have risen as keepers.

Castle is a guy who could end up as Wemby’s sidekick.

Thank heavens the Spurs are moving on from Collins.

Branham and Wesley might not be here for long either. The Spurs ride the trajectory of their players. Going from increasing minutes to no minutes at all is a very bad sign, and getting minutes back next year is against the odds for both of them.

I’m not as down on Vassell yet as others are. I’m not even a huge fan of his. He looks like a guy out there who just got traded to his new team. Very poor chemistry with others right now. If he’s still like this in 10 games, then I’ll start questioning.

Barnes is playing alright. He’s not hurting the team. People are low on him because he’s not standing out. I don’t know what people expected. He’s a role player. He’ll have his games where he doesn’t make a shot.

Keldon is by far the weakest link of the rotation and I can’t wait until they Collins him.

For someone who thought Keldon's ceiling was Charles Barkley, this must be really frustrating :)

That apart, it's sad to see how Keldon's game seems to have never developed beyond bully-moves into the crowded paint and some energy plays. Trouble is he can't be just replaced by a 3 and D guy. We need someone who has a bit more of a shifty game and the ability to drive and kick besides shooting 3s and defend adequately. Spurs will be lucky if they can get Cameron Johnson via trade, I think.

[Dex]

The Spurs' two best players are twenty years old.

Their main job is to keep Wembanyama -- on that front, the empty seats in the lower bowl are way more concerning than anything else.

My understanding is a lot of those seats are owned by corporate accounts, not die-hard fans.

They come late and leave early, if they even show up at all...and are so goddamn expensive that your common fan probably can't afford them anyways.

[CGD]

Already feels eerily similar to the 2004-2010 Cavs era..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gfqn-WFaIAArHd3?format=jpg&name=medium

Booby Vassell?

[skin27]

Already feels eerily similar to the 2004-2010 Cavs era..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gfqn-WFaIAArHd3?format=jpg&name=medium

right now mayve 2004-2006 cavs. Needs MVP wemby to be compared with 2009 and 2010 cavs. And also wemby needs to carry this scrubteam to be compared to 2007 cavs.

[Mr. Body]

Already feels eerily similar to the 2004-2010 Cavs era..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gfqn-WFaIAArHd3?format=jpg&name=medium

Add a generational talent exploding like a rocket to a basement team? Yeah. Sure.

Difference is Cavs had few assets. And then none. If the Spurs act like a lot of people on this board want them to act -- start burning assets for short-term 'solutions,' then this will be the way to become the LeBron Cavs. Vic can't even legally drink in the US until about a week from now.

[R. DeMurre]

Booby Vassell?

This situation taught us some valuable lessons I think. I thought for sure back then that free agents and solid vets would want to team up with this young emerging superstar, but that scenario never materialized. I have to wonder what the situation would be for stars or near stars in the NBA now-- would they want to pair up with a young French guy who reads sci fi novels, playing in a relatively unglamorous city in Texas? This stuff is always so hard to judge. New Orleans is one of my favorite cities in the US, but NBA players routinely talk about it being a place they either don't enjoy being in, or have little desire to experience again.

[Dejounte]

Add a generational talent exploding like a rocket to a basement team? Yeah. Sure.

Difference is Cavs had few assets. And then none. If the Spurs act like a lot of people on this board want them to act -- start burning assets for short-term 'solutions,' then this will be the way to become the LeBron Cavs. Vic can't even legally drink in the US until about a week from now.

And you never want to use those assets for ANYBODY. Just shut up, dude. If Doncic was available, you’d find something to nitpick about. It’s an idiotic paradox you’re in because you cling to nobodies like Collins and Branham and find something to shit about any player that’s available in the league.

You can’t even name any players right now that you’d trade for. There’s a happy middle here. You’re so loud and obnoxious about others having an opinion when you can’t be even aware of your own unreasonably extreme opinions.

[TrainOfThought5]

We need to Soft tank. This is the last opportunity we’ll have before Wemby/Castle is too good for us to lose enough games. One last good swing at the lottery.

[Davidicus]

Overall this team is definitely better than last year.

But being the #11 or #12 seed is painful.

I say we should give more mins to the confirmed core of the future (Wemby, Castle, Sochan)

This. Ladies and gentlemen, we are in the teenage puberty years of this team’s growth. It’s awkward, frustrating, and emo. And most annoying of all, it requires continued patience. It felt much easier last year to just be flat-out bad, but marvel at Wemby’s abilities and future potential, with good draft picks on the horizon. Now that we have a taste of success (in season 2!), we want more, but it’s never that quick and easy.

As for our individual players, I agree with most that Wemby Sochan Castle Champ Bassey are the keepers. Vassell KJ are good, not great, and have shown 90% of their total potential. Their contracts make them more valuable as trade pieces than #3-5 options on a championship team. KJ even less so, he’s just been a liability with the ball in his hands.

I like most of you worry that CP3 (and to a lesser extent, HB) isn’t in our long-term or even mid-term future, when looking at current playing time and total team wins. But I have to remind myself that the trade-off of CP3’s tutelage is absolutely worth it. Our long term keepers (Wemby, Sochan, Castle, Champ, Bassey) are receiving invaluable growth lessons that will pay dividends for us their entire career. And guys, every position in the draft helps - we’re not winnin a chip this year.

Everyone else speaks for themselves. Most don’t have the shooting, defense, or both to realistically be worth investing in from here on out (Mamu please stay on a cheap contract). I wish them the best of course. We will replace with FRPs, and hopefully some FAs and trades.

Last but not least, I’m honestly shocked that Wemby is this good, this early. After his ROY intro, I knew he’d get better in season 2, but I honestly didn’t dream of what he’s doing right now. Feels like 30+pts and 5+blks are guaranteed lately. Just insane. Pinch me moment. I don’t want to preach, but I’ll just say I personally am trying to stay present and grateful for what we’re witnessing, vs getting too caught up in “why aren’t we even better yet.”

[exstatic]

My thoughts are I hope PATFO aren't as emotionally attached to Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson as SpursTalk/Spurs Twitter.


:cry but they've been here a really long time :cry

:cry but they're so good in the locker room :cry

:cry I swear they're gonna develop soon bro just wait bro :cry

The vast majority of ST hates both with a passion, so that isn’t even a worry.

[Mr. Body]

And you never want to use those assets for ANYBODY. Just shut up, dude. If Doncic was available, you’d find something to nitpick about. It’s an idiotic paradox you’re in because you cling to nobodies like Collins and Branham and find something to shit about any player that’s available in the league.

You can’t even name any players right now that you’d trade for. There’s a happy middle here. You’re so loud and obnoxious about others having an opinion when you can’t be even aware of your own unreasonably extreme opinions.

Dude, keep your pants zipped.

LMFAO. Are you one of the clowns who want to burn Sochan and a First for a 28 year old playing for a losing team? Who won't be good in three years?

Good Christ, get a fucking grip. The franchise has made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR they are planning for the next decade, not to please you toddler-attention-span motherfuckers. Blowing the wad on the equivalent of Mo Williams right now is GONNA FUCK US RIGHT THE FUCK UP.

Settle down.

[Dejounte]

Dude, keep your pants zipped.

LMFAO. Are you one of the clowns who want to burn Sochan and a First for a 28 year old playing for a losing team? Who won't be good in three years?

Good Christ, get a fucking grip. The franchise has made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR they are planning for the next decade, not to please you toddler-attention-span motherfuckers. Blowing the wad on the equivalent of Mo Williams right now is GONNA FUCK US RIGHT THE FUCK UP.

Settle down.

Telling me to settle down when you’re having one of your episodic meltdowns again in your reply :lmao

Can’t name a single fucking player you’d trade for exactly like I said in my post :lmao

No, I wouldn’t trade Sochan as I’m one of his biggest fans on this site, you dumbass

[exstatic]

Why is everyone feeling so fucking good just cause we are at around 500 when our competition at like 22-5? Big failure! Need to bring in a real #2 for Wemby right away.

Someone posted a graphic the records of the last 5-6 years for OKC, ORL, and us. Both OKC and ORL had double 20ish win seasons, followed by a 40ish play in season, followed by the playoffs. OKC is a year ahead of ORL, and we are a year behind them. Even though ORL is a year ahead of us, we are probably in a better long term situation since they lack the pick cache that we and OKC have each amassed.

Stop being so fucking impatient. You’re like that bratty little girl in the original Willy Wonka. I want it NOOOOOOOOW, daddy.

We’re on the right track, using the same blueprint as two other teams that are now quite successful.

[exstatic]

We need to Soft tank. This is the last opportunity we’ll have before Wemby/Castle is too good for us to lose enough games. One last good swing at the lottery.

Not even possible with Wemby playing at AS level. It was even difficult last year, requiring torturous lineups to dump games. I always knew when Pop was dumping one, because even after Tre took over the PG spot, Pop would have Malaki bring the ball up the court in the fourth quarter. Nearly a guaranteed TO. In late season games like NYK and DEN, that wouldn’t happen.

[LeBowen]

Not even possible with Wemby playing at AS level. It was even difficult last year, requiring torturous lineups to dump games. I always knew when Pop was dumping one, because even after Tre took over the PG spot, Pop would have Malaki bring the ball up the court in the fourth quarter. Nearly a guaranteed TO. In late season games like NYK and DEN, that wouldn’t happen.

Anyone who still has these tank takes is either not actually watching games or doesn't know anything about basketball.
Last season Pop sat Devin, Jeremy and Keldon, supposedly our best players after Wemby and he still single-handedly won games.

There's just no tanking with Wemby on the roster. Even attempting to do so would do him major disservice.
He's on a GOAT trajectory and every employee of this franchise needs to get out of their comfort zone to accomodate him.
No more family atmosphere and charity cases on the roster. It's time for cutthroat GM moves that improve the roster.
One can argue that as good as that family atmosphere was during Timmy's years, it also cost us in some scenarios.

[Duncan2177]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRZpqsCBeQ0

[Dverde]

The coaching decisions feel more pop-like lately. I wouldn’t be shocked if he was giving shitty lineup recommendations.

[J_Paco]

Good start to the season!


Vassells only played 15 games Amid injuries .... way more worried about his injuries than his game

That's why all this cliff jumping about his 'poor' start is beyond dumb. He had no training camp, came back from his foot injury slowly getting his form back (was looking good), injured something else, has comeback again and has struggled somewhat back in the starting lineup.

He needs to build chemistry with the new guys (Paul and Barnes) in the starting lineup or bring him off the bench and drop Keldon completely out of the rotation.

And I actually misspoke when criticizing Keldon, cause his rebounding is just as good as any other point. It just 'feels like' he doesn't get to those loose balls like seasons before.

[J_Paco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRZpqsCBeQ0

Locked on Spurs is absolute dogshit as a podcast. It's the equivalent of having the impatient crybabies of ST in podcast form.

It's so insufferable that I couldn't get through December or January of last season before I unfollowed them

[J_Paco]

Anyone who still has these tank takes is either not actually watching games or doesn't know anything about basketball.
Last season Pop sat Devin, Jeremy and Keldon, supposedly our best players after Wemby and he still single-handedly won games.

There's just no tanking with Wemby on the roster. Even attempting to do so would do him major disservice.
He's on a GOAT trajectory and every employee of this franchise needs to get out of their comfort zone to accomodate him.
No more family atmosphere and charity cases on the roster. It's time for cutthroat GM moves that improve the roster.
One can argue that as good as that family atmosphere was during Timmy's years, it also cost us in some scenarios.

Whoever says that is a buffoon, TBH. Having a 'family atmosphere' and 'culture' is what separates small, less appealing markets to the bigger, better drawing markets.

Plus, as 'kid glove' and 'nice' as people make the previous era to be they still made aggressive moves when needed and dropped both of Tim's best friends (Antonio Daniels & Malik Rose) when necessary.

They need to be shrewd (like signing Bassey & Champ off the waiver wire), calculated and patient with their moves.

[paperboy77]

Booby Vassell?


We wish we go to the finals

[CGD]

This situation taught us some valuable lessons I think. I thought for sure back then that free agents and solid vets would want to team up with this young emerging superstar, but that scenario never materialized. I have to wonder what the situation would be for stars or near stars in the NBA now-- would they want to pair up with a young French guy who reads sci fi novels, playing in a relatively unglamorous city in Texas? This stuff is always so hard to judge. New Orleans is one of my favorite cities in the US, but NBA players routinely talk about it being a place they either don't enjoy being in, or have little desire to experience again.

The landscape has changed a lot with social media and other digital platforms (podcasts/hot takes industry). These guys can be anywhere and build a brand, while still living most of the year on the coast (to chase women etc) — remember most of the guys’ seasons end in April.

Hell on a broader level we’re seen the impact on this on the NBA as a whole. They’re concerned about transitional media ratings, fan attendance, etc., but meanwhile the league just signed a mega deal betting on new social media/podcast/digital consumption patterns.

It ain’t 2008 anymore…

[CGD]

We wish we go to the finals

And wish Wemby can build a legacy off of (a) playing in the shittiest conference of all time for a 10 year stretch, and (b) two asterisk season championships?

Not sure Vic is built that way tbh.

[LeBowen]

Locked on Spurs is absolute dogshit as a podcast. It's the equivalent of having the impatient crybabies of ST in podcast from.

It's so insufferable that I could get through December or January of last season before I unfollowed them

Let's look at it from another angle since you're saying we're impatient.
(I got no clue about those podcasts guys, never listened to them.)

Wemby is ready to win not games, but playoff series right now. He steps up every time when he's needed the most and makes it work in most games.
There's no need to be patient with him because he's ready and getting playoff experience would be invaluable.

Then we look at the rest of the roster. Castle is a rookie and will developing while we compete. Must play 25mpg right away, but won't be a key piece for a couple more years. We want to make the playoffs before that.
Jeremy will always be the defense oriented glue guy. Not having legit scorers just hurt him because he has to do things he's not good at, such as often being the second option on offense.

Who else needs patience?
It's Devin's 5th year, he already got paid. How much more patience does he need?
Keldon can't be on the roster on next season's opening night. He's horrible.
Everyone else is irrelevant in the bigger picture.

[scott]

The thing is, about Devin and Keldon, is that folks are waiting on some miraculous leap from them when the reality is that this is most likely just who they are. Take a look at this plot of their multi-year LEBRON ratings relative to the rest of the league (top is )-LEBRON, middle is D-LEBRON, bottom is overall, the y-axis titles get cut off unfortunately). Both of them have been the same dude for years now. This is just who they are. (Also, who was ready for the hard-to-swallow pills that Keldon is a better defender than Devin this year?)

https://i.ibb.co/ggWRVxR/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot.png

[scott]

By comparison, here is Jeremy's chart (I threw Wemby on there as well just to once again hammer home how absurd this guy is). That's what a leap looks like.

https://i.ibb.co/JRF4fYW/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-4.png

[CGD]

^ interesting metrics. Is LEBRON now the community consensus for the best overall evaluation tool? I know there have been several over the years.

[scott]

^ interesting metrics. Is LEBRON now the community consensus for the best overall evaluation tool? I know there have been several over the years.

DARKO DPM and EPM has been generally voted by GM's as the "most trusted" advanced metric, with LEBRON coming in behind that in 3rd. However, the last time I saw this survey conducted was in 2021. https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

I'll post up some DARKO charges in the post immediately following this post. I'm a big fan of EPM but historical data is paywalled and I'm not paying for that. CraftedNBA.com is great for a free knock-off version of EPM, with more of it available for free, but historical is still largely paywalled. I quote Crafted OPM/DPM/CPM stats a lot as well.

DARKO and LEBRON are great because you can get these nice historical charts for free. They all have flaws, and they are just stats and we can't rely totally on a spreadsheet, but they all generally align and if you dig into their construction they're all pretty logical and well founded.

[scott]

Here is the DARKO Daily-Plus-Minus career progressions for Jeremy, Keldon and Devin. Moreso than looking at these and asking "are these numbers good", I like to focus on the trajectories. This tells us what my eyes generally tell me and what other stats suggest: Keldon and Devin pretty much are who they are at this point, while Jeremy is really taking a leap.

https://i.ibb.co/HhdvhMH/dev-keldon-jeremy.png

Here is a chart of some well-established stars. You can see guys who are still young (Luka and Shai) are still on the ascent, whereas guys like Giannis and KD (who are still great) have plateaued or are on a downswing. That doesn't mean they aren't great (and Giannis is having one of his best seasons ever), it just says that they are largely fully developed. It's kind of amazing that Luka, Shai and Jokic are still on an upswing.

https://i.ibb.co/6t1qfvL/stars.png

The DARKO explorer is great, I encourage folks to play around with it. You can find it here: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Also play around with the "Player Profile" tab. Lots of great stuff there.

[Dejounte]

Here is the DARKO Daily-Plus-Minus career progressions for Jeremy, Keldon and Devin. Moreso than looking at these and asking "are these numbers good", I like to focus on the trajectories. This tells us what my eyes generally tell me and what other stats suggest: Keldon and Devin pretty much are who they are at this point, while Jeremy is really taking a leap.

https://i.ibb.co/HhdvhMH/dev-keldon-jeremy.png

Here is a chart of some well-established stars. You can see guys who are still young (Luka and Shai) are still on the ascent, whereas guys like Giannis and KD (who are still great) have plateaued or are on a downswing. That doesn't mean they aren't great (and Giannis is having one of his best seasons ever), it just says that they are largely fully developed. It's kind of amazing that Luka, Shai and Jokic are still on an upswing.

https://i.ibb.co/6t1qfvL/stars.png

The DARKO explorer is great, I encourage folks to play around with it. You can find it here: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Also play around with the "Player Profile" tab. Lots of great stuff there.

can you combine both graphs or make the second graph squeezed in for the x axis to match the first?

[Dejounte]

Adjust the second graph to 450 games, I mean. I would do it but I’m on my phone

[benefactor]

I used to think Vassell was one of the players that was necessary to keep along with Wemby and Castle, but that looks like it's going to Sochan now. I admittedly had lost faith in him but he looks like he's really starting to settle into the role he was always supposed to be in.

Unless you are one of the usual suspects that gets emotionally connected to every Spurs player that walks to the door, you understand and see that the back half of this roster is dog shit. You can over analyze it until your head starts to spin trying to make the case for some of these useless players but they are exactly what they are...useless.

This team is tracking about where it's supposed to but it's also tracking at the point where a move needs to be made to upgrade the talent. As Scott has said, standing pat keeps you right where you are and that's not where they need to stay...and there's absolutely no reason to go backwards and tank. You get you a couple of new prospects from the draft and move the rest of this bag of dicks out of here. There is nothing to overanalyze. It's pretty cut and dry.

[benefactor]

I will say the Spurs probably need to try to keep Shampenny. He is the kind of role player good teams need

[The Truth #6]

Yeah, we can't tank anymore. Which was my argument at the draft, we need to take BPA because #8 picks will become scarce as Wemby continues to dominate. There were positives to come out of that choice so it's complicated, I suppose.

[xellos88330]

It is just like it has been. Every team seems to catch fire from beyond the arc against the spurs. It makes me sad. Sure the future is bright... but tomorrow is also part of the future and I ain't happy. #greedyAF

[Dejounte]

I will say the Spurs probably need to try to keep Shampenny. He is the kind of role player good teams need

I see on other team’s forums wanting Champagnie in any trade scenario with the Spurs. He’s undervalued by Spurs fans right now, tbh. If our “progress” this season is both Champagnie and Sochan developing into keepers, it’s a big leap. I personally like the core of Sochan, Champagnie, Victor, Castle. Anything we add on top is gravy.

[benefactor]

I see on other team’s forums wanting Champagnie in any trade scenario with the Spurs. He’s undervalued by Spurs fans right now, tbh. If our “progress” this season is both Champagnie and Sochan developing into keepers, it’s a big leap. I personally like the core of Sochan, Champagnie, Victor, Castle. Anything we add on top is gravy.
I agree. Those three players outside of Victor are three players that work well on a good team if they are utilized correctly. The rest of the roster plus the available draft picks should be used to try to get at least one more decent piece to continue the building process. The stuff we have may not be able to be used to hit a huge home run but at the very least it can move the players on base into scoring position.

[scott]

Adjust the second graph to 450 games, I mean. I would do it but I’m on my phone

How's this one. I took out Joker, Giannis and KD, threw in Fox just for fun, no particular reason

https://i.ibb.co/mNKndDm/darko.png

[scott]

I see on other team’s forums wanting Champagnie in any trade scenario with the Spurs. He’s undervalued by Spurs fans right now, tbh. If our “progress” this season is both Champagnie and Sochan developing into keepers, it’s a big leap. I personally like the core of Sochan, Champagnie, Victor, Castle. Anything we add on top is gravy.


I agree. Those three players outside of Victor are three players that work well on a good team if they are utilized correctly. The rest of the roster plus the available draft picks should be used to try to get at least one more decent piece to continue the building process. The stuff we have may not be able to be used to hit a huge home run but at the very least it can move the players on base into scoring position.

Cheers to this. Champ is a major testament to the Spurs Pro Scouting department. Honestly, for free pickups, I'd put Bass and Mamu in that camp as well. These were all picked up as free roll flyers, and we've gotten one very useful role player out of it and two guys who contribute above expectations.

[Dejounte]

How's this one. I took out Joker, Giannis and KD, threw in Fox just for fun, no particular reason

https://i.ibb.co/mNKndDm/darko.png


Thanks scott

looks like Keldon can still do a DeAaron Fox type comeback ;)

can you put Sochan back in (remove Vassell and keldon if its too much clutter)

[MannyIsGod]

A lot of us felt Wemby was good enough to deserve better talent around him LAST SEASON, and he’s only even better and ahead of expectations now. He’s on the equivalent of an MLE contract. We have 2.5 years left of the gift of his rookie deal. I hope we take advantage of that.

I get this but some of you seem ready to make THE trade right now and this team doesn't have the top down talent to start completely blowing your wad. The Spurs should definitely make trades that add to their talent pool and I'm definitely on board with a fox move at the right price (just like I was with trae) but it's not just about Wemby being ready. It's gotta be Wemby and a rotation because trading everything for a number two and leaving the cupboard bare is a disaster.

[MannyIsGod]

Dude, keep your pants zipped.

LMFAO. Are you one of the clowns who want to burn Sochan and a First for a 28 year old playing for a losing team? Who won't be good in three years?

Good Christ, get a fucking grip. The franchise has made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR they are planning for the next decade, not to please you toddler-attention-span motherfuckers. Blowing the wad on the equivalent of Mo Williams right now is GONNA FUCK US RIGHT THE FUCK UP.

Settle down.


This is not the first time you accuse people of wanting to trade sochan who have never wanted to trade him. You going to keep pulling this bullshit until it works?

[MannyIsGod]

The thing is, about Devin and Keldon, is that folks are waiting on some miraculous leap from them when the reality is that this is most likely just who they are. Take a look at this plot of their multi-year LEBRON ratings relative to the rest of the league (top is )-LEBRON, middle is D-LEBRON, bottom is overall, the y-axis titles get cut off unfortunately). Both of them have been the same dude for years now. This is just who they are. (Also, who was ready for the hard-to-swallow pills that Keldon is a better defender than Devin this year?)

https://i.ibb.co/ggWRVxR/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot.png

So theyre both above average?

[MannyIsGod]

I don't understand why we are comparing keldon and Devin to stars? They're not paid like all stars and that ship has sailed. Comparing their advanced metrics to mvp candidates isn't apples to apples.

[LeBowen]

I get this but some of you seem ready to make THE trade right now and this team doesn't have the top down talent to start completely blowing your wad. The Spurs should definitely make trades that add to their talent pool and I'm definitely on board with a fox move at the right price (just like I was with trae) but it's not just about Wemby being ready. It's gotta be Wemby and a rotation because trading everything for a number two and leaving the cupboard bare is a disaster.

We have 12 FRPs, 5 swaps and 18 SRPs from '25 to 20131.
Unless we're trading for Giannis, the cupboard won't be left bare.

What do Markkanen and Fox have in common? Both up for extension when the rumors started and both at a discount price.
If Markkanen rejected the extension, that is.
Fox will be on an expiring deal and Kings can't ask for more than Devin+3 FRPs, even thst's generous.

Check that Fox topic and you'll see how few realistic targets are out there.

[scott]

Thanks scott

looks like Keldon can still do a DeAaron Fox type comeback ;)

can you put Sochan back in (remove Vassell and keldon if its too much clutter)

You can only do 5 players at a time. You can play around with it later, I'm not gonna build these and take the time to upload them today :lol

[scott]

I get this but some of you seem ready to make THE trade right now and this team doesn't have the top down talent to start completely blowing your wad.

This is a strawman that is constantly used against making moves. The Spurs proverbial "wad" is so large, that it's impossible to blow it in one move, and there isn't really a contingent of folks worth mentioning who want to do that.


The Spurs should definitely make trades that add to their talent pool and I'm definitely on board with a fox move at the right price (just like I was with trae) but it's not just about Wemby being ready. It's gotta be Wemby and a rotation because trading everything for a number two and leaving the cupboard bare is a disaster.

Of course it's about price. Everything is about price. No one has suggested blowing the entire warchest on any player (and let's be clear, that warchest is 12 FRPs and 17 SRPs). Likewise, it's not realistic to get good players for our trash (like some posters love to suggest). There are perfectly reasonable trade scenarios that don't "blow our wad" and are still realistic to SAC (or any other team).

[scott]

So theyre both above average?

I had a typo in the original post, it should have read that the top is "O-LEBRON". So they are both above median (not average... can't believe you of all people got caught in a rookie statistical mistake!) offensive players, both well below median defensive players, and Keldon is surprisingly a median player while Devin is below.

[scott]

I don't understand why we are comparing keldon and Devin to stars? They're not paid like all stars and that ship has sailed. Comparing their advanced metrics to mvp candidates isn't apples to apples.

If you read the posts, you'll see that is not what those charts are doing. I provided the charts of the stars to demonstrate a completely different point.

[baseline bum]

I get this but some of you seem ready to make THE trade right now and this team doesn't have the top down talent to start completely blowing your wad. The Spurs should definitely make trades that add to their talent pool and I'm definitely on board with a fox move at the right price (just like I was with trae) but it's not just about Wemby being ready. It's gotta be Wemby and a rotation because trading everything for a number two and leaving the cupboard bare is a disaster.

For me it's not so much about whether Wemby is ready to make the team a contender now as it is converting Vassell into someone more useful while he still has some trade value. I'm completely out on him after he was already a terrible defender last year and is now looking Keldon level this year. The team is starting to look like last year's team defensively as Vassell has returned and gotten more and more playing time. Dude is like the anti Danny Green.

[sfernald]

Someone posted a graphic the records of the last 5-6 years for OKC, ORL, and us. Both OKC and ORL had double 20ish win seasons, followed by a 40ish play in season, followed by the playoffs. OKC is a year ahead of ORL, and we are a year behind them. Even though ORL is a year ahead of us, we are probably in a better long term situation since they lack the pick cache that we and OKC have each amassed.

Stop being so fucking impatient. You’re like that bratty little girl in the original Willy Wonka. I want it NOOOOOOOOW, daddy.

We’re on the right track, using the same blueprint as two other teams that are now quite successful.

OMG that’s my fav movie. I am totally that bratty girl from CaTCF! I want my ticket NOW POP!!!! DO SOMETHING!!

lol, but I totally agree with you with where we are, maybe two years behind Okc but moving up quickly. I predicted 45 wins this summer and most everyone laughed at me. But I still believe. Maybe even one smaller size deadline trade might get us there. I’m a believer!!

[100%duncan]

I get this but some of you seem ready to make THE trade right now and this team doesn't have the top down talent to start completely blowing your wad. The Spurs should definitely make trades that add to their talent pool and I'm definitely on board with a fox move at the right price (just like I was with trae) but it's not just about Wemby being ready. It's gotta be Wemby and a rotation because trading everything for a number two and leaving the cupboard bare is a disaster.

Is this blowing the wad for you?

Devin
25 Hawks pick
26 Swap
+SRP and/or Filler player

[MannyIsGod]

Is this blowing the wad for you?

Devin
25 Hawks pick
26 Swap
+SRP and/or Filler player

For Fox? No but I'll give you 100 bucks if the price is that low. That's pretty absurd imo.

[MannyIsGod]

This is a strawman that is constantly used against making moves. The Spurs proverbial "wad" is so large, that it's impossible to blow it in one move, and there isn't really a contingent of folks worth mentioning who want to do that.

Of course it's about price. Everything is about price. No one has suggested blowing the entire warchest on any player (and let's be clear, that warchest is 12 FRPs and 17 SRPs). Likewise, it's not realistic to get good players for our trash (like some posters love to suggest). There are perfectly reasonable trade scenarios that don't "blow our wad" and are still realistic to SAC (or any other team).


The warchest is big but when we make those pics matter a lot too. The next 3 drafts are especially valuable because the Spurs need more talent NOW. I don't think we disagree much if at all anyway.

[MannyIsGod]

I had a typo in the original post, it should have read that the top is "O-LEBRON". So they are both above median (not average... can't believe you of all people got caught in a rookie statistical mistake!) offensive players, both well below median defensive players, and Keldon is surprisingly a median player while Devin is below.

Devin is pretty likely to have a better second half of the season. I would not be shocked if this is his low point for the season on those metrics. Also no one says above median in regular conversation. You goty point.

[scott]

Here are some more relevant-to-the-Spurs charts, especially in comparison to the selling points of past heroes, DJM (sold after 320 games on the DARKO charts, year 6 on the LEBRON chart) and Derrick (sold at 237 games on the DARKO charts, in the middle of Year 5 on the LEBRON charts)

https://i.ibb.co/GPyskDg/spurs5-DARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/4VCX3v7/Spurs-5-ODARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/QdGC1Yv/Spurs-5-DDARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/c63s7zB/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-5.png

What I see here:

Still time for Devin to take a Dejounte-like upward swing on the offensive end, but he's just a bad defensive player so unless he does jump to an 80+ percentile offensive player, he's going to be a below median overall player.

Jeremy's offensive, and thus overall, leap this season is awesome.

Devin and Keldon just ain't DJM or Derrick, and we probably should not expect equivalent returns for them if we look to move off of them. NBA GM's have access to all this information as readily as we do :lol

[SpursBills]

Here is the DARKO Daily-Plus-Minus career progressions for Jeremy, Keldon and Devin. Moreso than looking at these and asking "are these numbers good", I like to focus on the trajectories. This tells us what my eyes generally tell me and what other stats suggest: Keldon and Devin pretty much are who they are at this point, while Jeremy is really taking a leap.

https://i.ibb.co/HhdvhMH/dev-keldon-jeremy.png

Here is a chart of some well-established stars. You can see guys who are still young (Luka and Shai) are still on the ascent, whereas guys like Giannis and KD (who are still great) have plateaued or are on a downswing. That doesn't mean they aren't great (and Giannis is having one of his best seasons ever), it just says that they are largely fully developed. It's kind of amazing that Luka, Shai and Jokic are still on an upswing.

https://i.ibb.co/6t1qfvL/stars.png

The DARKO explorer is great, I encourage folks to play around with it. You can find it here: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Also play around with the "Player Profile" tab. Lots of great stuff there.

Glad someone else has found the DARKO explorer, it's a very helpful tool and started setting off alarm bells on Vassell as early as last season. I use it to look at players of a similar archetype - so for Vassell, it'd be Booker, Lavine, Middleton, and DeRozan. The real eye-opening name to compare him to is popular punching bag and noted "bust" Jalen Green, whose 3/106 extension was widely panned. Hopefully he is able to turn it around and either show that he's a valuable piece moving forward, whether to keep or to trade.

[scott]

The warchest is big but when we make those pics matter a lot too. The next 3 drafts are especially valuable because the Spurs need more talent NOW. I don't think we disagree much if at all anyway.

I think there is a good argument to be made that mid to late FRPs are what fits the least with Wemby's timeline. We are in agreement that we need more talent now, but adding raw late FRPs who will need 2-3 years of development doesn't really add that.

I'm sure the FO has a plan, because its about to be shit or get off the pot time. If CHI conveys this year, that is two picks out of our warchest that hit their expiration date. We'll either have to make the picks, trade them for useful players, or convert them into 20131's (which I'm not so much interested in at this point). IMO, the best strategy is to plan on keeping one FRP in every draft and start making utility of the excess by trading away for proven entities. That can be for a star, or it can be just to upgrade the overall level of the team.

BOS got Derrick White for their spares, a single late FRP, and a swap that the Celtics probably don't value much. That's what I'm hoping we do with some of our excess picks. The Pro Scouting department has done well with finds like Champ, Bass, Mamu. Go a find some White-like finds. Aaron Nesmith is a guy I've got my eyes on in the mold of that low-acquisition cost, known baseline, potential upside guy.

https://i.ibb.co/J7pwfM0/white-nesmith.png

[scott]

Glad someone else has found the DARKO explorer, it's a very helpful tool and started setting off alarm bells on Vassell as early as last season. I use it to look at players of a similar archetype - so for Vassell, it'd be Booker, Lavine, Middleton, and DeRozan. The real eye-opening name to compare him to is popular punching bag and noted "bust" Jalen Green, whose 3/106 extension was widely panned. Hopefully he is able to turn it around and either show that he's a valuable piece moving forward, whether to keep or to trade.

Great list of comparable names, all ones that I think everyone would hope Devin would grow comparable to in that #2 role. After year 2 of Devin's career, it looked like he was on that Middleton/Booker track, and it sure has fallen off from there.

I know a lot of folks want to believe this is just a tough start coming off an injury, or rust, or whatever, but this is part of a multi-year trend, not some recent development. Can he turn it around? Sure, anything is possible, but if you were running a simulation based purely on the data and past experience with other players, you wouldn't want to put money on it.

The defense is what has me completely out on Devin. Both the data and my eyes tell me he's a lost cause on that end.

[rjv]

I had the Spurs at 41-41 this season. They’re pretty much what I expected. Although Castle is doing a little better than I thought he would.

[100%duncan]

For Fox? No but I'll give you 100 bucks if the price is that low. That's pretty absurd imo.

Yes. Iirc that works in the machine. Obviously in real life it's different. How about adding the Spurs pick for 27? The point is we have too big of a war chest for Fox to leave the cupboard bare as others have stated.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. Iirc that works in the machine. Obviously in real life it's different. How about adding the Spurs pick for 27? The point is we have too big of a war chest for Fox to leave the cupboard bare as others have stated.

I mean of course it works in the trade machine as the picks don't matter just the matched salary but that price is just absurdly low. Even with another Spurs pick in there that's still a good trade. Its only 2 FRP.

[MannyIsGod]

Here are some more relevant-to-the-Spurs charts, especially in comparison to the selling points of past heroes, DJM (sold after 320 games on the DARKO charts, year 6 on the LEBRON chart) and Derrick (sold at 237 games on the DARKO charts, in the middle of Year 5 on the LEBRON charts)

https://i.ibb.co/GPyskDg/spurs5-DARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/4VCX3v7/Spurs-5-ODARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/QdGC1Yv/Spurs-5-DDARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/c63s7zB/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-5.png

What I see here:

Still time for Devin to take a Dejounte-like upward swing on the offensive end, but he's just a bad defensive player so unless he does jump to an 80+ percentile offensive player, he's going to be a below median overall player.

Jeremy's offensive, and thus overall, leap this season is awesome.

Devin and Keldon just ain't DJM or Derrick, and we probably should not expect equivalent returns for them if we look to move off of them. NBA GM's have access to all this information as readily as we do :lol

Alright I think you convinced me. I have been higher on Devin but it's damn hard to argue with the data. Thats pretty damming.

[100%duncan]

I mean of course it works in the trade machine as the picks don't matter just the matched salary but that price is just absurdly low. Even with another Spurs pick in there that's still a good trade. Its only 2 FRP.

What's the package you think then for Fox? And what would be your max offer?

[scott]

Alright I think you convinced me. I have been higher on Devin but it's damn hard to argue with the data. Thats pretty damming.

You are a MannyIsGod of Science, after all.

[stnick2261]

I see on other team’s forums wanting Champagnie in any trade scenario with the Spurs. He’s undervalued by Spurs fans right now, tbh. If our “progress” this season is both Champagnie and Sochan developing into keepers, it’s a big leap. I personally like the core of Sochan, Champagnie, Victor, Castle. Anything we add on top is gravy.

If that's the core going forward (and that is a fantastic defensive core), I would make everything else available in order to move up after the lottery in order to get Egor Demin (who would look perfect added to that group). If Vassell and Paul are gone by then, Castle and Demin start next to each other for a potential 3 ROY in a row starting lineup.

Then use whatever resources we have left to add a psuedo-all-star (someone who can take over an offense when needed) like Fox or Lauri or someone we haven't even discussed yet.

[Seventyniner]

So theyre both above average?

I think the top row is offense only, middle is defense only, bottom is overall. That would mean they're both above average on offense but below average on defense.

Keldon has been about a league-average player with one outlier (2024), while Vassell has been around 40th percentile with one outlier (2022). That would make Vassell's situation more worrying because he's performing worse than Keldon with a bigger contract and bigger expectations.

[BackHome]

Yeah, I never thought of Keldon as a starter I always though of him kind of like the Energizer spark off the bench kind of roll. As far as Devin I thought he could be a legit starter on a very good team but ever since Wemby was drafted I just don’t see it as maybe because he doesn’t mesh well with him or maybe his game is suffering from injuries?

If he is not the player we thought and his trajectory continues this is going to have a Huge impact on our timeline of trying to compete for a Title. I was afraid this was going to happen which is why I was hoping that we would at least have one lottery pick in the next draft.

[RC_Drunkford]

I‘d say play out the season. See what you can get for Zollins, Tre Jones, Branham at the deadline. Make a run at Fox and some other moves in the offseason and hope ATL pick lands in the top 10.

[LeBowen]

See what we have to give up to get rid of Zollins and Branham at the deadline.

Fixed that for you.
As for Tre, we can probably get a couple of SRPs which are useless considering how many we have already or a similar player in a different role, which would actually be a good deal.
If they don't plan to extend Tre, they should trade him for a bench wing/big. Who knows, maybe we get ourselves another Champagnie.

[scott]

Fixed that for you.
As for Tre, we can probably get a couple of SRPs which are useless considering how many we have already or a similar player in a different role, which would actually be a good deal.
If they don't plan to extend Tre, they should trade him for a bench wing/big. Who knows, maybe we get ourselves another Champagnie.

I posted this elsewhere, but Tre for Jonas works straight up. Saves WAS two additional years of salary. Jonas is probably a positive asset that can return them a late FRP from a contender though, tbh.

[Arguendo]

15-15 is better than I expected....

Vassell has been disappointing. If he's playing at the same level of last season we would have some more wins but he's worst, especially his defense. I hope the more he plays the better he can get, maybe he needs more time because of the injury.

Agree he's been disappointing on D, the defense looks flat bad so far. But he missed camp/preseason, then the first 9 games, then missed another 5 in a row, and only started the last 4. After foot surgery and with minutes restriction he may have just recently gotten into game shape.
But he's having his most efficient season offensively, even with a poor couple of most recent games.
I'm hopeful he'll see improvement on D playing majority of minutes next to Wemby and Sochan (plus Castle and Paul screaming at him to stop F-ing up) to take pressure off vs playing along with Keldon, Zollins, Tre, Braham, etc for a good chunk of his minutes off bench.
I'm gonna give Vassell 10-15 starts before many real evaluation on whether he's disappointing, holding, or improving overall. Right now my eye test says he took a step-up on O and a step-back on D, but next to several bad bench defenders and maybe out-of-shape and unsure of foot.

Also, Bassey playing like a beast in limited minutes and taking all of Zollins minutes is big addition-by-subtraction if nothing else.
Zollins with 6 straight Inactive/DNPs and only 12 minutes total in the two games before that is maybe the best news of the season.

[scott]

After watching Mikal's performance against us on XMas day, thought that Devin v Bridges would be a good comparison. Reminder on the LEBRON charts, Top of O-LEBRON, Middle is D-LEBRON, bottom is overall. I posted the DARKO charts in the same order.

Of course, we know what acquiring a player like Mikal costs, and he's not really a #2 option himself, IMO.

https://i.ibb.co/87KXHkN/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-6.png

https://i.ibb.co/5ndtg94/Devin-v-Mikal-O-DARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/VMWQtRP/Dev-v-Mikal-D-DARKO.png

https://i.ibb.co/hs0gzWF/Dev-v-Mikal-DARKO.png

[Biggems]

Wemby, Mamu, Barnes, Castle, Paul should be the starting lineup.

Bassey, Sochan, Vassell, Champ, and Jones should be the 2nd unit.

Keldon and Wesley should be 11 and 12.

[Arguendo]

This. Ladies and gentlemen, we are in the teenage puberty years of this team’s growth. It’s awkward, frustrating, and emo.

Vassell KJ are good, not great, and have shown 90% of their total potential. Their contracts make them more valuable as trade pieces than #3-5 options on a championship team. KJ even less so, he’s just been a liability with the ball in his hands.

Agree with most, but hard disagree on Vassell or that Keldon is good, hahaha.

Vassell has huge injury flags (right now, maybe forever) and looks like a liability on D, so that's enough reason to maximize his value and trade him away (I'm in the Vassell + couple quality picks +as any 2nds as needed + trash to match for Fox+ camp). But I think a healthy Vassell still has plenty of ceiling to be a good to very good #3 on a contending team. Keldon is a 6'4.75" forward with a 6'9.25" wingspan and a pure inefficient, inconsistent chucker. Vassell is a 6'5" guard with a 6'10" wingspan who scores efficiency and consistently.

Keldon's O peaked as a 22 y/o and has significantly dropped since, Vassell's O efficiency has increased every single year.
Maybe he stops improving, but continued SLIGHT improvement gets him to a .480/.400/.830+ split (currently .468/.388/.830 for reference) on mid-high 3 volume. That's an efficient 22ppg guy on 16.5 shots a game, with 7 three's per and figuring prior 3 yr FTA rate. Reduce the shots, fine, efficiency stays the same, 15 shots gets you about 20 points. That's a really solid #3 on O. There's a not unrealistic chance he goes past that and gets to a .500/.400+/.850+ peak, a 25/5/5 guy on his contract and looks like one of the best values in the league.

He doesn't turn 25 until August, (big) if he stays healthy, I seriously doubt that he's peaked and unless your getting not-past-the-prime All-star value in return, roll the dice and see if he hits. If you can get an All-star return, I'm happy to go that route too. But he's not in the same camp as Keldon.
And remember, he'll be making less than MLE $$$ in a few years, his contract won't be a albatross unless injuries crush his career.

[ambchang]

In terms of wins the spurs are trending better than I expected (I thought it’d be a 35 win season). However, the spurs are also worse defensively than I thought they’d be. With players like wemby (DPoY level), sochan (all d potential), castle (surprisingly bad metrics wise so far), Barnes, cp3 (smart vets) and champaigne (solid above average) the spurs should be at least in the top 10 defensively but yet they are hovering middle of the pack.

The offence is going a bit better than I thought they’d stand but the sets have lots of improvement opportunities.

I still believe the coaching has major opportunities to improve and the sets require some major updates.

The outlines of a good team are there but there are some directional things I’m worried about.

Outside of wemby, castle, champaigne and sochan are keepers, in that order. I like Blake and thinks he can be kept around to be a POV defender for smaller quick guards. Vassell has until the end of the year to turn things around. Everybody else could be traded or cut.

[Arguendo]

Is this blowing the wad for you?

Devin
25 Hawks pick
26 Swap
+SRP and/or Filler player

I'd do that deal, but remember all picks must be traded with the Swap or as a best-of/etc. SWAPs are attached to picks, they are not assets that can be moved without the underlying pick or some best/middle/worst strategy. Also, I'd assume the Kings would want their Swap back, so the structure you put can't actually be the final deal.
I'd still do 25' Hawks, 26' Spurs w/Swap, King Swap cancelled, and a chest of shitty 2nds. Still have the fake 25' Charlotte 1st so they claim good young player in Vassell + 3 firsts + 3-5 2nds, that may well get is done with plenty of wad left.

[skin27]

Offense looks like hot garbage

[BackHome]

Without Wemby we probably a bottom 6th team that shows we are not deep or talented

[Dejounte]

Without Wemby we probably a bottom 6th team that shows we are not deep or talented
Too bad. deal with it or pray wemby gets hurt like a shitty fan because the Spurs arent going to get a high draft pick again with their pick.

[BackHome]

Too bad. deal with it or pray wemby gets hurt like a shitty fan because the Spurs arent going to get a high draft pick again with their pick.

Great Dejounte you just Jinxed Wemby - I hope your happy