Rasho vs. Nazr

[Dre_7]

In another thread, I compared Rasho's and Nazr's stats against Det.


Nazrs stats STARTING against Det as a Spur: 5pts 6reb

Rashos stats STARTING against Det as a Spur: 2.5pts 2rebs

Now, I wanna take it a little bit deeper than just that. So, lets dig deeper, shall we?


Lets look at both players stats so far this year.

Rasho's 2005-2006 stats:
22.0MPG, 5.6PPG, .533FG%, .652FT%, 4.3RPG, 1.22BPG

Now, Nazr's 2005-2006 stats:
12.4MPG, 4.5PPG, .532FG%, .786FT%, 3.6RPG, .47BPG

The numbers dont lie!! Both players stats are very very similar. Nazr is producing almost as much (4.5PPG to 5.6PPG, 3.6RPG to 4.3RPG, etc etc) as Rasho, in almost half the time (12.4MPG to 22MPG)!

Lets take it even another step further. Playoff stats!!

Rasho's career playoff stats:
18.7MPG, 4.2PPG, .454FG%, .414FT%, 3.6RPG, .67BPG

And now, Nazr's career playoff stats:
20.9MPG, 6.8PPG, .523FG%, .651FT%, 6RPG, .87BPG

^^^Again, the numbers dont lie.



So, since DRob has retired, SA has had two starting Centers. When Rasho was SA's starting postseason Center, SA lost in the playoffs. When Nazr was SA's starting postseason Center, SA won the Championship.

Nazr was HUGE last year when both Tim Duncan and Rasho were hurt. Had SA not gotten Nazr from New York, they may not have won the title.

I am not saying Nazr is a superstar. I am just saying that he deserves a chance to show that he can preform the way he did last year. He has yet to get that oppurtunity this year. Meanwhile, Rasho is getting all the starting minutes at the five, despite getting outmuscled and outhustled in the paint.

Odds are, SA will face the Pistons in the Finals this year. In the past two seasons, Nazr has fared much better against Det than Rasho. Who do you want starting against the best team in the League?

Looking at all this, I ask, why the hell is Nazr sitting while Rasho is still playing starter minutes? :wtf

[Bruno]

Nazr is a better fantasy basketball player, that's sure.

[Dre_7]

Nazr is a better fantasy basketball player, that's sure.

And Rasho is the better starter???? Prove it :D Cuz I think the numbers, the playoff wins, and the '05 bling bling prove otherwise.

[Pero]

Nazr also has 2.3 fouls in that time, while rasho has 2.9 with his minutes. Not a good thing, if you don`t know how to defend other than making fouls...
Rasho was also huge two seasons ago when Duncan got hurt...
When Nazr was the starting center in the playoffs, Manu had MVP kind of playoffs, that wasn`t so when Rasho was starting...

[Bruno]

Rasho isn't better, both are average centers. (the weakest spot in nba)

Nazr isn't way better than Rasho (if he is better) and it makes way more sense for Spurs to play Rasho over Nazr this year (contract wise).
I find too that Nazr should play more but I trust more Pop than us to decide who deserve playtime.

Our best big men lineup is PF : Horry , C : Duncan.

[Dre_7]

Nazr also has 2.3 fouls in that time, while rasho has 2.9 with his minutes. Not a good thing, if you don`t know how to defend other than making fouls...
Rasho was also huge two seasons ago when Duncan got hurt...
When Nazr was the starting center in the playoffs, Manu had MVP kind of playoffs, that wasn`t so when Rasho was starting...

Fouls werent too much of a problem for Nazr last year in the playoffs. I think he only fouled out a couple times. I am not worried about the fouls at all.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm so tired of the title being attributed to Nazr. We won the title inspite of our shitty centers, not because of them. Enough with that bullshit.

Also, when we go back through the film and count missed rotations and blown offensive plays attributable to each of the centers as a statistical catagory, then we can do a worthwhile comparison.

Nazrs playing like shit, Rasho's playing a bit better. Thats what it boils down to.

[MannyIsGod]

Fouls werent too much of a problem for Nazr last year in the playoffs. I think he only fouled out a couple times. I am not worried about the fouls at all.:lmao

Its hard to get in foul trouble when you're never in the right defensive spot to begin with.

[Dre_7]

:lmao

Its hard to get in foul trouble when you're never in the right defensive spot to begin with.

Is that why Rasho has less fouls?? :lmao

[MannyIsGod]

The thing is, I don't understand how someone with so much more athletic ability than Rasho can be so much worse on the defensive end. Can someone explain it to me?

[Dre_7]

I'm so tired of the title being attributed to Nazr. We won the title inspite of our shitty centers, not because of them. Enough with that bullshit.

I never attributed the title to him. I am just saying that had they not gotten Nazr, and Rasho and Tim goes down, they may not get HCA in the Finals. Meaning, the outcome could have been alot different.


Nazrs playing like shit, Rasho's playing a bit better. Thats what it boils down to.

Really??


Rasho's 2005-2006 stats:
22.0MPG, 5.6PPG, .533FG%, .652FT%, 4.3RPG, 1.22BPG

Now, Nazr's 2005-2006 stats:
12.4MPG, 4.5PPG, .532FG%, .786FT%, 3.6RPG, .47BPG

[Dre_7]

The thing is, I don't understand how someone with so much more athletic ability than Rasho can be so much worse on the defensive end. Can someone explain it to me?

Now, I havent seen all the games this year. But in the games I have seen, against good offensive teams, Rasho has not been that much better than Nazr. Especially against quick teams. Rasho just gets burned.

[Slo spurs fan]

Now, I havent seen all the games this year. But in the games I have seen, against good offensive teams, Rasho has not been that much better than Nazr. Especially against quick teams. Rasho just gets burned.
So you saw only 3 Spurs games this season?





j/k. I am too sleepy today to fight with you about the same thing all over again.

[Dre_7]

j/k. I am too sleepy today to fight with you about the same thing all over again.

Thats cool. I understand that. After you get some rest, bring some proof if you wanna.

[ChumpDumper]

What a necessary thread.

[leemajors]

you are still implying that we won the title b/c of nazr. whatever you say, and whenever you post playoff stats, that is the implication. nazr probably never would have started if rasho hadn't got hurt. to this your automated reply is, well we wouldn't have won the title. that is just a wild assumption. if you wanna bring stats, bring some useful ones. neither rasho or nazr fills it up anyway, what is the team +/- when each is on the court? that would actually be digging deeper...

[Dre_7]

you are still implying that we won the title b/c of nazr. whatever you say, and whenever you post playoff stats, that is the implication. nazr probably never would have started if rasho hadn't got hurt. to this your automated reply is, well we wouldn't have won the title.

I never said we wouldnt have won the title. I just said that had we never made the trade, when both Rasho and Tim were out (remember that) , we may not have gotten HCA against Det in the finals without Nazr great play in Rasho and Tims absence. Therefore, it MAY have been different. I NEVER said that we WOULD NOT have won the title if we didnt have Nazr.

[Dre_7]

if you wanna bring stats, bring some useful ones. neither rasho or nazr fills it up anyway, what is the team +/- when each is on the court? that would actually be digging deeper...

Ok, is that what you are talking about??

Mohammed
On Court +/-
+10.6

Off Court +/-
+5.3

Team Net +/-
+5.3

Nesterovic
On Court +/-
+6.0

Off Court +/-
+7.2

Team Net +/-
-1.1


I have NO idea what this +/- stuff means. I just copied and pasted. So can someone explain what it means?

[SlovenianGuy]

For comparison (cause like Rasho he's also more D than O)

Bowen
+5.2

+10.2

-5.0

[Dre_7]

Still have no idea what it means. Can someone explain?

[ChumpDumper]

I would probably pay more attention to the allowed FG% and total rebounding % numbers from 82games.com to shed some more light on the situation.

It's not like Nazr has to do that much better to displace Rasho, but he has to do better. It's up to him -- if he wants all the welfare minutes you guys want to give him, he needs to show it would be worth giving them to him in practice and his given PT.

[Dre_7]

I would probably pay more attention to the allowed FG% and total rebounding % numbers from 82games.com to shed some more light on the situation.

FG% allowed:

Nazr
On Court
42.1%

Off Court
45.7%

Rasho
On Court
44.7%

Off Court
44.9%

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, and the rebounding?

[Brutalis]

If I HAD to choose.... it's Rasho. Because he can change if he really wanted to.

But fantasy wise... Nazr for sure. Nazr won't change because he's been like this since his days at Kentucky beating the shit out of my Razorbacks.

Well, not beating the shit, we owned them plenty in the 90s.

[Dre_7]

Yep, and the rebounding?

Rebounding percentage:

Nazr
On Court
49.6%

Off Court
49.6%

Rasho
On Court
49.7%

Off Court
49.5%

[ChumpDumper]

Here's the net differences between Rasho's being on the floor and off:

Allowed FG%: -0,1%

Total Rebounding: +0.1%

I thought there would be more of a difference were he that terrible.

[SequSpur]

Shouldn't this be Rasho vs. the dancing Usher?

[Dre_7]

Lets just trade both for PJ Brown. :lol

[Extra Stout]

Even if Rasho were better against 28 teams, only Nazr has the strength and athleticism to compete with Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, and Antonio McDyess.

[wildbill2u]

The thing is, I don't understand how someone with so much more athletic ability than Rasho can be so much worse on the defensive end. Can someone explain it to me?

Brains. NAZR is a little slow in making connections between his brain and his body. It shows up in everything he does.

Multiple pump fakes before going up for a shot.

slow reactions on defense to rotations

bad hands on passes.

failure to grasp the basics (forget the intricacies) of the offense and defense.

His slow brain/body coordination doesn't show up so much on offensive rebounds because he has his eyes on the ball continuously and sets his mind to it, eg. "I Go get ball."

[TwoHandJam]

His slow brain/body coordination doesn't show up so much on offensive rebounds because he has his eyes on the ball continuously and sets his mind to it, eg. "I Go get ball."
:lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Where's David? Can't Pop just convince David to come back for the playoffs???



In this debate, however, I'd probably have to vote for Nazr. I'm not thrilled with either center. Pop really isn't thrilled with either of them either. There's a reason why Duncan usually slides to the center spot and Horry plays the 4 in most crunch-time situations. . .both of our 5's are crappy.

The problem with Detroit is that their interior guys are too strong for Roho, and so the Horry-Duncan tandem isn't as good as it is against most teams.

If you have to choose between Rasho and Nazr against Detroit I'd have to probably go with Nazr. He brings a little more energy and spirit to the table. He also seems to garner at least an ounce of respect from the Detroit D when the Spurs are on offense. Rasho is more discliplined and a better position defender, but he's a step slow against the Pistons and he brings nothing consistent on the offensive end of the floor.

Personally I hope the Spurs can find someone else to come in and play the post, or I hope Pop finds some other successful combination of guys to throw at Detroit because I'm not sure we can beat the Pistons with either Nazr or Rasho.

[zeleni]

The problem with Detroit is that their interior guys are too strong for Roho, and so the Horry-Duncan tandem isn't as good as it is against most teams.

If you have to choose between Rasho and Nazr against Detroit I'd have to probably go with Nazr. He brings a little more energy and spirit to the table. He also seems to garner at least an ounce of respect from the Detroit D when the Spurs are on offense. Rasho is more discliplined and a better position defender, but he's a step slow against the Pistons and he brings nothing consistent on the offensive end of the floor.

Personally I hope the Spurs can find someone else to come in and play the post, or I hope Pop finds some other successful combination of guys to throw at Detroit because I'm not sure we can beat the Pistons with either Nazr or Rasho.

What is wrong with Spurs playing Pistons? OffRB!!!!!! Nothing else.

What has that got to do with Rasho vs. Nazr? Almost nothing. Individually they both can catch ball. Problem is mostly what to do to get more second chances. They got to get tough when getting to the basket. Spurs are playing now as a machine, getting a lot of assists and three's by their gamebook. Offensive scheme is so flawless against bad teams.

Nazr was horrible playing D and simple playing O. Simplicity sells, so he is better than Rasho. I have to agree with that. Now, why would that mean that Nazr is better against Detroit? He sucked against them, especially playing with Tim, who was the main reason for both losses. Rasho is playing a stabile game, I guess that is mostly what he is asked to do. Nazr is uncontrolled chaos. We need chaos? I do not think so, Manu alone is enough. :)

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

What is wrong with Spurs playing Pistons? OffRB!!!!!! Nothing else.

What has that got to do with Rasho vs. Nazr? Almost nothing. Individually they both can catch ball. Problem is mostly what to do to get more second chances. They got to get tough when getting to the basket. Spurs are playing now as a machine, getting a lot of assists and three's by their gamebook. Offensive scheme is so flawless against bad teams.

Nazr was horrible playing D and simple playing O. Simplicity sells, so he is better than Rasho. I have to agree with that. Now, why would that mean that Nazr is better against Detroit? He sucked against them, especially playing with Tim, who was the main reason for both losses. Rasho is playing a stabile game, I guess that is mostly what he is asked to do. Nazr is uncontrolled chaos. We need chaos? I do not think so, Manu alone is enough. :)

My guess is that if the Spurs are getting outrebounded by 24 boards per game it has quite a bit to do with whoever is playing center.

I'm hoping you weren't saying Tim was the main reason for both of our losses to the Pistons? Timmy is alone on an island trying to be the only Spur who can do anything in the post against Detroit so far this year. He needs a little help, and he's not getting any for Nazr or Rasho.

[zeleni]

My guess is that if the Spurs are getting outrebounded by 24 boards per game is has quite a bit to do with whoever is playing center.

I'm hoping you weren't saying Tim was the main reason for both of our losses to the Pistons? Timmy is alone on an island trying to be the only Spur who can do anything in the post against Detroit so far this year. He needs a little help, and he's not getting any for Nazr or Rasho.

It may be that I was trying to oversimplified the whole situation. The game is won or lost by mentality. Duncan was baffled like Parker was. None of them had any game, while they were ran over like sheep. That is simply the truth. Detroid is like cars they manufacture: Ready to go.

Spurs are in rebuilding mode, where they still do not know what to do with Oberto, Nazr, Finley, Manu and how would be TP's new game be best transferred to Play-offs. Timmy hardly stood his ground with his decisions. Is he responsible for the loss? YES. That kind of games are otherwise called lessons.

[Melmart1]

I can't believe people are seriously comparing Rasho and Nazr's regular season stats from this season to make a point.

Anyone can put up better stats in half the time if half their minutes are garbage time vs. the other team's scrubs.

[velik_m]

My guess is that if the Spurs are getting outrebounded by 24 boards per game it has quite a bit to do with whoever is playing center.

Rebounding is a team effort.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It was basically 3-on-1 for Tim in the paint, Zelini. He needed a little help. Tim's lesson was that he's got complimentary post players that suck.

[Trainwreck2100]

It's a tie, they both suck

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Rebounding is a team effort.

True, but you have to have the anchors in the middle. Plus, who else on the Spurs roster other than Tim is a rebounder?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It's a tie, they both suck

Best post of this thread. We can overcome their deficiencies against most of the other teams in the league but Detroit has exposed our team's weakspot.

[Man In Black]

When it gets down to it, all Detroit has accomplished is beating a Tim Duncan-led team when he wasn't at his MVP-level self.

We'll see how he steps it up when it really counts.

[zeleni]

It was basically 3-on-1 for Tim in the paint, Zelini. He needed a little help. Tim's lesson was that he's got complimentary post players that suck.

Give me a break. It was 3 against 2, and those 3 even knew what are they doing on the floor. Timmy didn't had a clue and Rasho would let him think. I again state, that Rasho off the court meant a landslide for Pistons. Timmy had no tactics inside and Parker was shut down... Rasho and Tim together held their ground.

When you talk about Spurs without Rasho or without Timmy... That was just horrible. It has to be said: of the starting 5, only Rasho played his usual role as he should.

PS: Rasho IS guilty for OffRBs. As everybody else on that court. They should have learned something at least from Christmas.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

When you talk about Spurs without Rasho or without Timmy... That was just horrible. It has to be said: of the starting 5, only Rasho played his usual role as he should.

PS: Rasho IS guilty for OffRBs. As everybody else on that court. They should have learned something at least from Christmas.

Zeleni I'm going to give you some slack seeing as basketball is something you probably started paying attention to only after Tony Parker entered the league. Rasho was horrible against Detroit. Nazr was horrible. Maybe Rasho was less horrible on the defensive end than Nazr, but that was by a matter of degrees.

Duncan went for 17 pts and 13 boards in game 2 against the Pistons and 18 pts and 11 rebounds in game one. Had he hit his free throws he would have been better than his season's averages.

You're defending a guy (Rasho) who had 4 pts and 3 rebounds in 24 minutes in the second game and 1 pt and 2 rebounds in game 1.

If Tim had a 5 playing next to him who could keep a defense from keying on him in the paint then things would be a lot easier for him. Blaming him for those losses is ridiculous. He played as well as he could seeing as he was the only player in a Spurs uniform who was capable of grabbing a rebound or doing anything in the paint.

Which brings me back to Rasho: Five points and five rebounds total for Rasho in 40 minutes over 2 games??? Yeah he was playing his usual role: crappy. By the way, those stats are half of Rasho's already miserable averages.

Alas, maybe I'm remembering the days when an aging David Robinson with a bad back and sore knees was still good for 12 pts and 8 boards, even against the best of teams. Robinson at 60% was still enough to free up Duncan. Now TD is basically by himself. Not to diss the amazing 2.5 points and 2.5 rebounds of help Rasho provides.

I think we can match the Pistons intensity and skill at 4 of the 5 positions on the floor. . .we just can't at the 5 spot. Why is that so hard for you to realize and accept?