Supreme Court Agrees to Hear Lethal Injection Case -- Moratorium to Follow?

[Mr. Peabody]

I would think that there is going to have to be a moratorium on lethal injections until the Supreme Court determines if it is cruel and unusual punishment.

Jan 25, 1:34 PM EST

Supreme Court to Hear Death Row Appeal

By GINA HOLLAND
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court agreed Wednesday to hear a Florida death row inmate's appeal that challenges that state's lethal injection method, just hours after the court dramatically stepped in to stop the man's execution.

Clarence Hill's lawyer said that he had been strapped to a gurney with IV lines running into his arms Tuesday night when Justice Anthony M. Kennedy issued a temporary stay.

The full court made the stay permanent, and ordered both sides to file more arguments.

Hill argues that the three chemicals used in Florida's lethal injection method of execution cause pain, making his execution cruel and unusual punishment. His lawyer also contends that Hill is mentally retarded.

He is on death row for the Oct. 19, 1982, slaying of Pensacola police Officer Stephen Taylor, 26, and the wounding of his partner, Larry Bailly, when they responded to a silent alarm of a bank robbery.

Hill's case allows the court to revisit a 2004 ruling in an Alabama death case, in which justices said that David Larry Nelson could pursue a last-ditch claim that his death by lethal injection would be unconstitutionally cruel because of his damaged veins.

While Hill does not have damaged veins, his appeal cites medical studies about the drug cocktail used by Florida and other states.

An appeals court had said he brought the challenge too late.

His lawyer, D. Todd Doss, told justices that there is a risk that he will not be properly anesthetized at the time of his death.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.

Purchase this AP story for reprint.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Funny business. SCOTUS won't say that puttting someone to death is C & A, but a little needle discomfort might be.

[sa_butta]

Then if you want a painless death, put a bag over his head and shoot him in the back of the head.

[xrayzebra]

Funny business. SCOTUS won't say that puttting someone to death is C & A, but a little needle discomfort might be.

I would ask the question: What do we do with mad dogs? My contention
is if a person has a mental problem and has killed, all the more reason to
put them to death. They will do it again. The don't realize what they have
done; therefore, they will do it again and should be taken out of society.

Also, how do we know it is painful to be put to death in any manner. There
is no one alive to tell us.

[Mr. Peabody]

Also, how do we know it is painful to be put to death in any manner. There
is no one alive to tell us.

If somebody screams "This is painful" as they're dying, it would be a pretty good indication.

[Mr. Peabody]

Pulled this off of the web

Chemical Problems

In most states three chemicals are used for lethal injection: Sodium thiopental, pancuronium bromide, and potassium chloride. The first of these is considered an ultra-short-acting bromide which is effective as an anesthesia for just a few minutes. The second, pancuronium bromide, marketed as Pavulon, paralyzes the skeletal muscles without affecting the nerves or brain. The individual injected with Pavulon is conscious without being able to move or speak, thus giving the impression of serenity or tranquility. In the state of Tennessee, it is a crime for veterinarians to use this drug in euthanizing pets. The final injection, potassium chloride, stops the heart while causing excruciating pain. The effect of this “cocktail,” according to testimony by Dr. Mark J.S. Heath who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia, is “that the sodium thiopental can be inadequate or wear off”…leaving “the prisoner conscious, paralyzed, suffocating and subject to extreme pain from the potassium chloride” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).

According to Judge Ellen Hobbs Lyle, “The subject gives all the appearances of a serene expiration when actually the subject is feeling and perceiving the excruciatingly painful ordeal of death by lethal injection…the Pavulon gives a false impression of serenity to viewers, making punishment by death more palatable and acceptable to society” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).

[FromWayDowntown]

If somebody screams "This is painful" as they're dying, it would be a pretty good indication.

Your second post makes it sound as thought it would be impossible for the condemned to scream anything, even though consciously feeling excruciating pain.

[SA210]

Also, how do we know it is painful to be put to death in any manner.
Care to be a guinea pig?

[Yonivore]

If somebody screams "This is painful" as they're dying, it would be a pretty good indication.
Really? There are some pretty good actors in prison that may think screaming "this is painful" is a good last way to stick it to the system. And, I don't think the needle stick -- no matter how long it takes to find the vein, Tookie -- will ever be considered cruel or unusual.

The "cocktail" of chemicals used to kill them is very precise in how it works. Sleep, paralysis, heart stopper...in that order. If you've ever had surgery and gone under general anasthesia you know what it is like to be executed by lethal injection.

[Mr. Peabody]

Your second post makes it sound as thought it would be impossible for the condemned to scream anything, even though consciously feeling excruciating pain.

It would seem to be impossible to scream as the prisoners are paralyzed.

My first post was a waggish response to Xay asking how we would know if it is painful to be put to death in any manner.

[xrayzebra]

Care to be a guinea pig?


Well SA210, this may surprise you, but. Some years back I had
a surgery for what is none of your business: during the surgery
stopped breathing and they had a problem getting me back into
the real world. Know what, I didn't realize I had the problem. No
pain, no nothing. And for your information, anyone having surgery
is given a drug to paralyze them. They seem to have a problem with
someone moving when they are cutting away on your torso.
So yes, guess I have been a guinea pig to a degree. A bi-product
of surgery is that ICU will kill you before the surgery. Three days
there almost did what they couldn't do in surgery.

The unanswered question. I really don't care how much pain they
feel dying. Like they didn't when they inflicted pain to those they
killed. I am all for punishment. Pure and simple.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The "cocktail" of chemicals used to kill them is very precise in how it works. Sleep, paralysis, heart stopper...in that order. If you've ever had surgery and gone under general anasthesia you know what it is like to be executed by lethal injection.


Care to be a guinea pig?

[Mr. Peabody]

Really? There are some pretty good actors in prison that may think screaming "this is painful" is a good last way to stick it to the system. And, I don't think the needle stick -- no matter how long it takes to find the vein, Tookie -- will ever be considered cruel or unusual.

The "cocktail" of chemicals used to kill them is very precise in how it works. Sleep, paralysis, heart stopper...in that order. If you've ever had surgery and gone under general anasthesia you know what it is like to be executed by lethal injection.

Really? Because the statement from the doctor who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia seems to indicate that the process can be painful, but what does he know? He only teaches anesthesiology at a medical school.

The effect of this “cocktail,” according to testimony by Dr. Mark J.S. Heath who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia, is “that the sodium thiopental can be inadequate or wear off”…leaving “the prisoner conscious, paralyzed, suffocating and subject to extreme pain from the potassium chloride” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).

[SA210]

The unanswered question. I really don't care how much pain they feel dying. Like they didn't when they inflicted pain to those they
killed. I am all for punishment. Pure and simple.
It's not up to us to end their life. Your talking about revenge.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Really, because the statement from the doctor who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia seems to indicate that the process can be painful, but what does he know? He only teaches anesthesiology at a medical school.

The effect of this “cocktail,” according to testimony by Dr. Mark J.S. Heath who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia, is “that the sodium thiopental can be inadequate or wear off”…leaving “the prisoner conscious, paralyzed, suffocating and subject to extreme pain from the potassium chloride” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).

but didn't you know? Yonivore is an expert in con law, medicine, science, the arts, and kung fu fighting.

[SA210]

Really, because the statement from the doctor who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia seems to indicate that the process can be painful, but what does he know? He only teaches anesthesiology at a medical school.

The effect of this “cocktail,” according to testimony by Dr. Mark J.S. Heath who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia, is “that the sodium thiopental can be inadequate or wear off”…leaving “the prisoner conscious, paralyzed, suffocating and subject to extreme pain from the potassium chloride” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).
Be careful Mr. Peabody, that professor will now be labeled as far left wing, and now you'd be against America all over again.

[xrayzebra]

It's not up to us to end their life. Your talking about revenge.

Yeah, I am. Does that surprise you. You do it all the time with your
rants about Bush. Nothing would please you more than see him behind
prison bars. Although he has done nothing to you or anyone else except
the enemies of this country.

You judge all the time, so spare me the crocodile tears.

[Yonivore]

Really, because the statement from the doctor who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia seems to indicate that the process can be painful, but what does he know? He only teaches anesthesiology at a medical school.

The effect of this “cocktail,” according to testimony by Dr. Mark J.S. Heath who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia, is “that the sodium thiopental can be inadequate or wear off”…leaving “the prisoner conscious, paralyzed, suffocating and subject to extreme pain from the potassium chloride” (Liptak, NYT, 10/7/2003).

One anesthesiologist out of how many? What's his stance on the death penalty?

Fact is, the sodium thiopental is given in dosages that will prevent this. It isn't like a teenager trying to overdose on momma's valium, the dosages are sufficient to knock out the largest condemned prisoner.

[Mr. Peabody]

but didn't you know? Yonivore is an expert in con law, medicine, science, the arts, and kung fu fighting.

And now he's off to do his research to find a source, any source, that will contradict what I have said.

[Mr. Peabody]

One anesthesiologist out of how many? What's his stance on the death penalty?


:rolleyes

[SA210]

Yeah, I am. Does that surprise you. You do it all the time with your
rants about Bush. Nothing would please you more than see him behind
prison bars. Although he has done nothing to you or anyone else except
the enemies of this country.

You judge all the time, so spare me the crocodile tears.
I guess Facts=Rants now. I don't wish him death, but he does belong behind bars. I make observations off of peoples actions and what they say, so No, I'm not surprised that you would wish death to people with a passion. Your Xray.

[Mr. Peabody]

Fact is, the sodium thiopental is given in dosages that will prevent this. It isn't like a teenager trying to overdose on momma's valium, the dosages are sufficient to knock out the largest condemned prisoner.

We should believe you over the opinion of this doctor who teaches at Columbia?

[Yonivore]

We should believe you over the opinion of this doctor who teaches at Columbia?
We should believe him over the all the others who are either silent on the issue or say it is painless?

[Mr. Peabody]

It bothers me Yoni, that you won't ever consider this doctor's opinion to possibly have some merit.

Please see my earlier thread on the irrationality of partisan thinking.

[Yonivore]

:rolleyes
I think his politics may be relevant -- particularly since there isn't a cacophony of anesthesiologists saying the same thing.

[FromWayDowntown]

And now he's off to do his research to find a source, any source, that will contradict what I have said.

He better come correct with a political dossier on whomever he finds to say that there isn't any unnecessary pain in the execution process.

What's curious about this to me is that at least 4 Supreme Court justices (and not just Souter, Ginsburg, Stevens, and Breyer, since Kennedy issued the initial stay) thinks that there may be enough here to consider the argument. Given the number of executions that aren't stopped (most of which involve last minute pleas to the Supreme Court for stays on all sorts of unique grounds), this one was. There must be something compelling in the argument and in the science that makes someone think there's some merit to the position.

[Mr. Peabody]

We should believe him over the all the others who are either silent on the issue or say it is painless?

Maybe not, but you should at least consider the ramifications of his learned opinion, instead of dismissing him in the manner that you did.

[Yonivore]

It bothers me Yoni, that you won't ever consider this doctor's opinion to possibly have some merit.

Please see my earlier thread on the irrationality of partisan thinking.
It's not partisan thinking. I've been involved in both the medical field (as an EMT) and law enforcement for over 25 years.

My medical training convinces me the process is painless. My law enforcement background tells me it's justice and security.

And, yeah, since he's only one -- I'm not buying it. I would bet his opinion is based on the theory that a prisoner may be underdosed.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think his politics may be relevant -- particularly since there isn't a cacophony of anesthesiologists saying the same thing.

Would you find any relevance in the politics of someone who reached an opposite conclusion?

[Mr. Peabody]

There must be something compelling in the argument and in the science that makes someone think there's some merit to the position.

It had better be more than just the opinions of experts in the field, because if that's not enough to convince Yoni, how can it possibly convince the SCOTUS.

[Mr. Peabody]

And, yeah, since he's only one -- I'm not buying it. I would bet his opinion is based on the theory that a prisoner may be underdosed.

Who said he was the only one? He was the only one in my post. I don't think my post represents the totality of information that is out there on the subject.

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's not partisan thinking. I've been involved in both the medical field (as an EMT) and law enforcement for over 25 years.

My medical training convinces me the process is painless. My law enforcement background tells me it's justice and security.

And, yeah, since he's only one -- I'm not buying it. I would bet his opinion is based on the theory that a prisoner may be underdosed.

so because you're a security guard, we should give your medical opinion more weight than an expert?

[xrayzebra]

I just want to ask the question: Am I the only one that has gone into surgery?
Does anyone that has remember when they lay your head on the little doughnut,
and pull your head back and start the injection to knock you out. Does anyone of
you remember the breathing tube they place down your throat? Wonder why they
do that. To breath for you while you are paralyzed. Oh, give me a break. You
are worried about those that have killed, maimed and done other horrible things to
people.

The last thing I remembered was him placing a needle in my IV and when I woke up
in recovery or ICU. Well in ICU they were yelling at me to breathe.

I remember years ago reading from another expert Doctor, death will be most
painless thing you will face in life. I can believe that.

[SA210]

:lol , the professor holds more weight than the chinese handcuffs.

[SA210]

Oh, give me a break. You
are worried about those that have killed, maimed and done other horrible things to people.
It's not for us to decide who dies.


I remember years ago reading from another expert Doctor, death will be most painless thing you will face in life. I can believe that.
Was your doctor also a security gaurd? oh no, it couldn't be....

[Oh, Gee!!]

Was your doctor also a security gaurd? oh no, it couldn't be....

We could write a detective show about Yoni. Her day job is carting off dying patients to hospitals, but her night job places her in the concrete jungles of Target parking lots. Meet the "Ambulance-Rent a Cop," fridays on the UPN.

[xrayzebra]

It's not for us to decide who dies.


Was your doctor also a security gaurd? oh no, it couldn't be....

Well you are always asking about facts. Does going thru the procedure,
to a point, count. They just didn't stop the heart. How many facts
do you want. And yes, it is for us to decide who dies, when it comes to
certain things. Swift justice serves it purpose. Justice, when it comes to
the "slow wheels of justice" has not worked. But I will guarantee one thing
those that have killed and been killed will not kill again. Now that is a fact.

[SA210]

We could write a detective show about Yoni. Her day job is carting off dying patients to hospitals, but her night job places her in the concrete jungles of Target parking lots. Meet the "Ambulance-Rent a Cop," fridays on the UPN.
:lmao

Followed by "Grumpy Old Men" starring Xray

[Mr. Peabody]

It's not partisan thinking. I've been involved in both the medical field (as an EMT) and law enforcement for over 25 years.

My medical training convinces me the process is painless.

So you would have us believe that your EMT training qualifies you to refute the opinion of a doctor who teaches anesthesiology at Columbia?

[xrayzebra]

:lmao

Followed by "Grumpy Old Men" starring Xray

You think I am grumpy now, you ought to see me when I don't get
my way.... :lol

Hey, new thought. Why don't you get the homeless to go to the
day workers site here in SA and get a job? No address or anything
needed. Just be there when someone drives up and wants some
help doing a job. Just thought I would ask. :angel

[SA210]

Well you are always asking about facts. Does going thru the procedure, to a point, count. They just didn't stop the heart. How many facts
do you want.
Well, that's for debate on whether people believe in what Bible says about Not killing people. People have different beliefs. Mine is, we can't kill or decide who dies, their punishment comes from God, not us.

Anti abortion, but yet, pro death penalty. Makes alot of sense. Doesn't sound like pro life to me.


And yes, it is for us to decide who dies, when it comes to
certain things. Swift justice serves it purpose. Justice, when it comes to
the "slow wheels of justice" has not worked. But I will guarantee one thing
those that have killed and been killed will not kill again. Now that is a fact.
Again, it's up to God only. Not people seeking thrill and revenge from someone being murdered.

[Mr. Peabody]

Hey, new thought. Why don't you get the homeless to go to the day workers site here in SA and get a job? No address or anything
needed. Just be there when someone drives up and wants some
help doing a job. Just thought I would ask. :angel

I know that some do that. We used to hire them back when I did construction. Man, they used to stink to high hell and you'd have to watch your tools or they'd take off with them.

[SA210]

You think I am grumpy now, you ought to see me when I don't get
my way.... :lol

Hey, new thought. Why don't you get the homeless to go to the
day workers site here in SA and get a job? No address or anything
needed. Just be there when someone drives up and wants some
help doing a job. Just thought I would ask. :angel
Hey Xray, why don't you go with me downtown tomorrow at 5AM and we'll see how many homeless people are in line for those jobs. Again, you try to preach to me something I have first hand experience in. :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

I'll take one step back here (hopefully to help re-focus the discussion):

In looking at a description of the Questions Presented to the Supreme Court, it appears that the issues raised by the petition have little to do with the actual methodology used in Florida and much more to do with the procedural and substantive due process rights of a person to challenge the use of those methods.

Here are the two questions the Court agreed to hear:


1. Whether a complaint brought under 42 USC Sec. 1983 by a death-sentenced state prisoner, who seeks to stay his execution in order to pursue a challenge to the chemicals utilized for carrying out the execution, is properly recharacterized as a habeas corpus petition under 28 USC Sec. 2254

2. Whether, under the Supreme Court's decision in Nelson [v. Alabama (unanimously holding that an inmate challenging an Alabama procedure for preparing an inimate for death by lethal injection could pursue an Eighth Amendment claim under Section 1983)], a challenge to a particular protocol the State plans to use during the execution process constitutes a cognizable claim under 42 USC Sec. 1983?

The issues, then, don't have much to do directly with the Eighth Amendment propriety of the Florida methodology. The case boils down (it would seem) to whether the condemned has a pre-death right to pursue a private action for a violation of his Eighth Amendment rights and whether (as the Eleventh Circuit held in this case) that challenge is different from a habeas proceeding concerning the propriety of the execution in the first instance. The Court won't (it would seem) decide the Eighth Amendment question, though.

The medical science would be in the briefs so that the Court can determine if there is some possibility that the condemned might be able to show an issue for trial in a section 1983 action based on an Eighth Amendment claim.

So, to answer Peabody's original question, the posture of the case would seem to negate the need for a moratorium right now -- if the Petitioner is able to convince the Court that his 1983 claims should proceed, then a decision on that issue (or a grant of certiorari to review a decision on that issue) might result in a moratorium.

[xrayzebra]

Hey Xray, why don't you go with me downtown tomorrow at 5AM and we'll see how many homeless people are in line for those jobs. Again, you try to preach to me something I have first hand experience in. :lol

You know something, I just may do that. Just to make you get up at
5AM. How come you don't advertise that the homeless try to find jobs
at the day work places? I'm serious.

Besides I'm sure you wouldn't want me along. I am grumpy you know, and
you would not want to associate with an old conservative.

[xrayzebra]

Well, that's for debate on whether people believe in what Bible says about Not killing people. People have different beliefs. Mine is, we can't kill or decide who dies, their punishment comes from God, not us.

Anti abortion, but yet, pro death penalty. Makes alot of sense. Doesn't sound like pro life to me.


Again, it's up to God only. Not people seeking thrill and revenge from someone being murdered.

Well, I was taught in the bible that God said: We can make our days
longer or shorter. But I am not going to get into a biblical thing.

[SA210]

You know something, I just may do that. Just to make you get up at
5AM. How come you don't advertise that the homeless try to find jobs
at the day work places? I'm serious.

Besides I'm sure you wouldn't want me along. I am grumpy you know, and
you would not want to associate with an old conservative.
I'm always up at 5 anyway. The day labor jobs are good for them to make some quick money and get on their feet, but it's no long term goal for many. We need to help them get training to get better jobs and careers.

If you could grow up and actually cared to help, I wouldn't mind associating myself with you in helping those in need. That's a good thing.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm glad to see that this thread hasn't devolved into personal bickering and has stayed right on focus.

[SA210]

Sorry, back on topic. Xray is pro death.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm glad to see that this thread hasn't devolved into personal bickering and has stayed right on focus.


oh, put a sock in it. ;-)

[xrayzebra]

Sorry, back on topic. Xray is pro death.

Love you lady...... :lol

[xrayzebra]

SA210 just keep checking your PM....you might be surprised.

[Mr. Peabody]

Here are the two questions the Court agreed to hear:

The issues, then, don't have much to do directly with the Eighth Amendment propriety of the Florida methodology. The case boils down (it would seem) to whether the condemned has a pre-death right to pursue a private action for a violation of his Eighth Amendment rights and whether (as the Eleventh Circuit held in this case) that challenge is different from a habeas proceeding concerning the propriety of the execution in the first instance. The Court won't (it would seem) decide the Eighth Amendment question, though.


Yeah, you're right. The AP report didn't have the questions that were presented. I guess he will have to get an ruling in his favor in the SC and then, work his way back up the system before the "cruel and unusual" issue is before the Court.

[SA210]

SA210 just keep checking your PM....you might be surprised.
I'm won't surprised, I'm sure the government is looking into all of our PM's.

[FromWayDowntown]

We'll get resolution to this question fairly quickly. Final papers from the parties are due at the Supreme Court on April 17, with argument before the Court to be set the week of April 24, and an opinion due before the justices take their summer recess.