Buck Harvey: Names of All-Stars change, but the impact of Ginobili rarely does

[kolko]

Buck Harvey: Names of All-Stars change, but the impact of Ginobili rarely does

San Antonio Express-News

INDIANAPOLIS — Manu Ginobili says you aren't named to the All-Star Game because of what you did last year, but that doesn't explain Yao Ming.

Last year, this year — what exactly has he ever done?

Yao has never won a playoff series, and the same goes for his All-Star and Rockets teammate, Tracy McGrady. Others who will be in Houston next week representing the Western Conference, Elton Brand and Pau Gasol, have the same résumé.

Ginobili, instead, is coming off an All-Star season that peaked in the spring. What he did should have stayed with some people, but the memory gave way to the usual NBA emphasis on stats and style.

As it was, the final 1:28 Sunday afternoon had to remind everyone.

Ginobili says he really doesn't care that he won't be in Houston, and he appears sincere. He also understands why he's not going. Playing through three injuries this season, he says he hasn't been "great."

Fans who voted didn't completely agree with him; he finished third behind Western Conference starters Kobe Bryant and Steve Nash. But the coaches who select the reserves left him off the team, and those in the media who annually question these selections didn't even put him on their who-got-snubbed list.

Carmelo Anthony is supposed to be the one in the West with a beef.

The reasoning is not without logic. The Spurs, after all, have two other All Stars. Ginobili's injuries have caused him to miss 13 games and struggle in others. And compared to the numbers of Anthony and Ray Allen, Ginobili looks like a role player.

But Ginobili proved how wrong that perception was last spring. Then he helped eliminate Anthony and Allen and Nash from the playoffs.

Four Pistons made the East team in the name of team play. Why not Ginobili for the same reason? He beat those four Pistons last year, and, after Sunday, the Spurs are just a game behind Detroit.

Tony Parker's rise is responsible for a lot of that, and he deserves his All-Star slot. But four of the 10 Spurs' losses this season came while Ginobili sat out, and two others came when he shouldn't have been playing.

And since he returned from his latest bruise? The Spurs have won seven in a row, including every game on this road trip.

Sunday summed up his impact, beginning with the opening minutes. Then Ginobili had a hand in all of the points in an 11-0 start.

He would get wild; his season high in points would be accompanied by a half-dozen turnovers. Gregg Popovich pulled him to the bench to talk to him, but the speech was subtler than one in this same building two years ago.

Then, his frustration building because he hadn't yet understood what he had, Popovich asked: "Are you going to be a normal human being?"

Popovich needed more time to realize that Ginobili isn't normal, and he wasn't with about a minute left Sunday. Then, after throwing in a free throw off a Pacers defensive technical, he sped to run down a Parker pass.

He tight-roped along the mid-court line, keeping both his balance and the ball. And when he turned he was 40 feet from the basket with about four seconds left on the shot clock.

Normal human beings don't dribble twice before tossing in a 34-footer.

Ginobili called it lucky afterward, as did Popovich. "That's not part of the deal," Popovich said, smiling.

Or is it? Ginobili is notorious for sinking half-court shots after practice. "He does it every day, makes it every day and gets 'oohs' and 'aahs' every day," said Tim Duncan.

The oohs and aahs kept coming Sunday. After his 3-pointer cut the Indiana lead to one, Ginobili caught a Pacers big man, Scot Pollard, in a switch. With Pollard's back turned to him, Ginobili drove, anticipating a Pollard turn and the foul to follow.

Ginobili's free throws gave the Spurs the lead, and two more free throws later clinched the game. In all, Ginobili scored 10 of his 29 points in the final 1:28.

He was the difference, just as he was a year ago. And if he keeps this up, if he takes the Spurs on another playoff run, proving again he's one of the top five in the league when it counts?

Maybe then everyone will see why some of these All Stars don't belong with him.

Link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/bharvey/stories/MYSA021306.1D.COL.BKNharvey.spurs.7e5f1cb.html)

[TheTruth]

He was the difference, just as he was a year ago. And if he keeps this up, if he takes the Spurs on another playoff run, proving again he's one of the top five in the league when it counts?

no doubt

[1Parker1]

And if he keeps this up, if he takes the Spurs on another playoff run, proving again he's one of the top five in the league when it counts?


Top 5 players in the league?

Lebron
Wade
Duncan
Nash
Billups
Garnett
AI
Kobe
.
.
.
.

[Carlos869]

Top Five in the League "WHEN IT COUNTS"

[SequSpur]

Geeze, now Manu is a superstar.... Buck Harvey again......... :lol

Must I go there?

[cheguevara]

Top 5 players in the league?

Lebron
Wade
Duncan
Nash
Billups
Garnett
AI
Kobe
.
.
.
.

Manu is right there in that group when it counts which is at the last minutes of a close game

[Peter]

Manu isn't in that spot if not for TD.

[TheTruth]

Top 5 players in the league?

Lebron
Wade
Duncan
Nash
Billups
Garnett
AI
Kobe
.
.
.
.
Considering that Duncan and Kobe are the only two to have played "when it counts" (the finals), I'd say your list is wrong.

[smeagol]

Manu isn't in that spot if not for TD.
Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.

[smeagol]

Geeze, now Manu is a superstar.... Buck Harvey again......... :lol

Must I go there?
It's funny to see how ungreatful you are , shorty.

[nkdlunch]

I saw the highlight of Manu's 3 and half the crowd in Indiana went wild when he made it!

[SAGambler]

I would guess by Ginobili standards, he really doesn't believe he should be in the ASG..

But there is a lot of guys going that don't deserve to be there either....

Yao..? Gimme a break.... Unless you get voted in for being from China...

Manu is the type of player that can be the "X" factor in any game... Remember last year when he went off for 40 against the Suns and erased a large 4th quarter deficit.

I know one thing... If the guy was available, I would want him on my team.. Every time......And I bet there are a bunch of NBA coaches that feel the same...

And that's what makes him an All Star....

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

WHEN IT COUNTS


Like, howabout, during the NBA Finals perhaps?

Manu doesn't get the love, but I don't know of anyone more clutch than him.

He's SuperMan-u. If I was choosing teams for 5-on-5 he'd be one of my five picks.

[waly.mg]

Top 5 players in the league?

Lebron
Wade
Duncan
Nash
Billups
Garnett
AI
Kobe
.
.
.
.

Which of these players will be in the Finals?

Can be: Wade, Duncan, Nash and Billups
Can´t be: Lebron, Garnett, AI and Kobe

[NCaliSpurs]

Parker Vs. Ginobilli in
3
2
1
...

[vanvannen]

Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.

Well said.

[SouthernFried]

Manu is my favorite player in the league...followed by Nash.

Manu is so intangible. When he's on the court, you just don't know what's gonna happen. Steals...passses...34' shots...behind the back, spinning, off-balance, reverse layups, taking a charge, getting a foul, diving for a loose ball. Who the fuck knows what he's gonna do?

And if in the last seconds of the game, any game...and you need to score. Manu at the top of the key is the best play in the league.

And that's the truth ;)

[austinfan]

^ What he (or she) said.

[IceColdBrewski]

Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.

Ouch. Somebody just got owned.

[Peter]

Sure, he needed a trapezoid lane and a zone D scrum to do it. In the NBA he's leading the Golden State Warriors to a 35-47 record.

[IceColdBrewski]

Sure, he needed a trapezoid lane and a zone D scrum to do it.

No need to make excuses. You got owned. Take it like a man.

[Peter]

Owned by what? Put Ginobili on a team in the NBA as the first option and they'd be lucky to see the postseason.

Go "take it like a man" from your boyfriend, chump.

[vanvannen]

Owned by what? Put Ginobili on a team in the NBA as the first option and they'd be lucky to see the postseason.

Go "take it like a man" from your boyfriend, chump.


yadda, yadda, yadda.

You got owned. Move on.

[Peter]

When the NBA moves to FIBA rules, you kiddos might have a point.

Until then, move on and learn a little about the game.

[nkdlunch]

Put Ginobili on a team in the NBA as the first option and they'd be lucky to see the postseason.

so what?
kobe, the #1 player in the league didn't make it to the playoffs last year either

[IceColdBrewski]

When the NBA moves to FIBA rules, you kiddos might have a point.

Until then, move on and learn a little about the game.

Weak.

Fiba rules never stopped a "Dream Team" from winning the Gold before. But somehow it was all a Manu-led team needed to beat the best talent assembled that year? Riiiiight.




http://homepages.bw.edu/~gwalton/funnies/files/owned.jpg

[Peter]

so what?
kobe, the #1 player in the league didn't make it to the playoffs last year either


That is the point. Kobe without a dominant low post threat like Shaq in the NBA couldn't even make the postseason.

[Peter]

Weak.

Fiba rules never stopped a "Dream Team" from winning the Gold before. But somehow it was all a Manu-led team needed to beat the best talent assembled that year? Riiiiight.




Did the US field a true "Dream Team" in 2004? How many shooters did that team have?

[IceColdBrewski]

Did the US field a true "Dream Team" in 2004? How many shooters did that team have?

Somehow you totally missed my point. Either that or you just chose to ignore it. Point being, Team USA had the best talent assembled, and were familiar with the Fiba rules long before the 2004 Olympics rolled around.

I suggest you watch more Spurs games. Because I watch them all (well, 90% of them), and Manu has proven time and again that he can get it done with, or without Duncan on the floor with him.

[Peter]

Team USA 2004 was the weakest "Dream Team" ever assembled. Again, the rules do matter. Under FIBA, Oberto can defend a Tim Duncan because the entire Argentinian defense can collapse on TD in the paint. In the NBA, players still have to play individual defense so an Oberto would be lucky to last a half against TD.

Team USA lost in no small part due to the fact that its perimeter shooting was absolutely morbid. Put a Ray Allen and a Kobe Bryant on it and the USA brings home another gold.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manu isn't in that spot if not for TD.Same shit different thread. Manu has been successfull in every league and competition he's been. I'm sure Manu is better with Duncan by his side, but Duncan isn't the only reason Manu has succeeded. Now quit bitching, its getting old!

[Peter]

Well, it's getting old to read how Ginobili was the reason the Spurs have won championships and how Duncan was not the primary reason. It's getting old reading how the Spurs should take Duncan out of their offense in favor of Ginobili.

[leemajors]

or maybe you're an idiot and can't comprehend what people are saying. duncan doesn't have to the the "primary" reason anymore. he's a very important player on the team, and all world, no one is saying he isn't. you're taking offense to something that is simply not there. instead of saying, wow gnob took over the last few minutes of the game last night, we won because of him, you are pouting and saying, well he only did it because duncan plays for the spurs. it's stupid and makes no sense.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Well, it's getting old to read how Ginobili was the reason the Spurs have won championships and how Duncan was not the primary reason. It's getting old reading how the Spurs should take Duncan out of their offense in favor of Ginobili.WHO THE FUCK HAS SAID THAT??? You're the only one intent on putting Manu's accomplishments down. Someone says "Manu is great", and you jump up and say "well he wouldn't be great without TD". The only one being an ass here is you!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

or maybe you're an idiot and can't comprehend what people are saying. duncan doesn't have to the the "primary" reason anymore. he's a very important player on the team, and all world, no one is saying he isn't. you're taking offense to something that is simply not there. instead of saying, wow gnob took over the last few minutes of the game last night, we won because of him, you are pouting and saying, well he only did it because duncan plays for the spurs. it's stupid and makes no sense.A-FUCKING-MEN!

[Peter]

Perhaps you have no point and have to resort to namecalling to make it seem as you do?

Duncan remains the reason the Spurs are successful. Take him away, Ginobili and Parker don't get the opportunities to produce and the Spurs struggle to reach the postseason. Duncan has not become some kind of afterthought. He remains the Spurs.

[nkdlunch]

Well, it's getting old to read how Ginobili was the reason the Spurs have won championships and how Duncan was not the primary reason. It's getting old reading how the Spurs should take Duncan out of their offense in favor of Ginobili.

maybe it's the voices in your head saying that shit, 'cause I haven't read anything close to someone saying Manu is the main reason Spurs won championships.

and if someone has said that they're probably 10 years old and you're having an argument w/10 year olds :lol

[Peter]

WHO THE FUCK HAS SAID THAT??? You're the only one intent on putting Manu's accomplishments down. Someone says "Manu is great", and you jump up and say "well he wouldn't be great without TD". The only one being an ass here is you!


See what you just quoted and enthusiastically endorsed.

[Peter]

maybe it's the voices in your head saying that shit, 'cause I haven't read anything close to someone saying Manu is the main reason Spurs won championships.

Then you need to read this forum a little bit more.




and if someone has said that they're probably 10 years old and you're having an argument w/10 year olds :lol

Yes, most of the responses to my observations do seem to come from a 10 year old mind.

[Peter]

Here we go. In this thread the following was the claim, as if Manu could carry a team to the NBA Finals on his own.


Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.

[cheguevara]

Yes, most of the responses to my observations do seem to come from a 10 year old mind.

stop talking to yourself then

[doldrums]

Team USA 2004 was the weakest "Dream Team" ever assembled. Again, the rules do matter. Under FIBA, Oberto can defend a Tim Duncan because the entire Argentinian defense can collapse on TD in the paint. In the NBA, players still have to play individual defense so an Oberto would be lucky to last a half against TD.

Team USA lost in no small part due to the fact that its perimeter shooting was absolutely morbid. Put a Ray Allen and a Kobe Bryant on it and the USA brings home another gold.

Now we get it. If USA wins they have the better team. If another country wins, then FIBA rules and the US team suck. Thanks for clearing that up, we were confused here.

[Joepa]

Manu is an intangible player that is necessary for us to win in the big games. Granted, Tim makes everyone around him better, but the argument could be made that while Manu would not win without Tim, Tim would likewise not win without Manu. That's why 4 of their 10 losses have come while Manu was injured, and we've reeled of 9 in a row after Manu came back 7 games ago.

[smeagol]

That is the point. Kobe without a dominant low post threat like Shaq in the NBA couldn't even make the postseason.
What is your point, MB? That Kobe is a great player because of Shaq? Huh? That must be won of the stupidest statements ever uttered by one of your screen names.

What you are saying is pretty obvious. You need a a dominant big man to get to the finals (Shaq, TD, Hakeem, etc) or a well assembled team of excellent players (Detroit, Bulls of the 90s - wo had MJ).

But that is beside the argument. Both Kobe and Manu are great players in their own right. The fact they played with dominant big men simply made them better.

But if the way you phrase your posts, it seems like you believe the sole reason Manu and TP play great is TD, and Sparky, is BS.

[Joepa]

Manu and TP would not be nearly as good if defenses didn't have to worry about Timmy down low. Show me a team that has won the title since '98 that has not had an effective big man down low taking pressure off of the guards.

[Peter]

What is your point, MB? That Kobe is a great player because of Shaq? Huh? That must be won of the stupidest statements ever uttered by one of your screen names.

Again, Kobe gets to shine in the NBA Finals because of Shaq, both in terms of getting there as well as the attention that Shaq commanded of an opponent's defense.



What you are saying is pretty obvious. You need a a dominant big man to get to the finals (Shaq, TD, Hakeem, etc) or a well assembled team of excellent players (Detroit, Bulls of the 90s - wo had MJ).


Right, it is obvious, but some don't seem able to grasp it.





But that is beside the argument. Both Kobe and Manu are great players in their own right. The fact they played with dominant big men simply made them better.

But if the way you phrase your posts, it seems like you believe the sole reason Manu and TP play great is TD, and Sparky, is BS.

They have the opportunity to "play great" because they have a TD on the low block drawing plenty of attention from opponents' defenses.

[IceColdBrewski]

Perhaps you have no point and have to resort to namecalling to make it seem as you do?

Funny. That's exactly what I was thinking about you after you called me a "chump" earlier in this thread. Take a good look in the mirror. Because you're the first one who resorted to name calling.

Your homerism towards Duncan is almost laughable. Even for another Spurs fan. And what you preach may have been true 2 or 3 years ago. But Manu and Parker have both become the kinds of players who can create for themselves regardless of who they're playing with.

[Peter]

Now we get it. If USA wins they have the better team. If another country wins, then FIBA rules and the US team suck. Thanks for clearing that up, we were confused here.


Do the Spurs do as well in the NBA if it adopted FIBA rules? Nope. Hence, the value of Duncan.

[Joepa]

Why is everyone getting so ass-hurt?

[Peter]

Funny. That's exactly what I was thinking about you after you called me a "chump" earlier in this thread. Take a good look in the mirror. Because you're the first one who resorted to name calling.


Funny, that was after your argument consisted of "you got owned". Brilliant.

[IceColdBrewski]

Funny, that was after your argument consisted of "you got owned". Brilliant.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

[smeagol]

Here we go. In this thread the following was the claim, as if Manu could carry a team to the NBA Finals on his own.
Where did I claim Manu can carry an NBA team to the finals? I simply said that Manu has played at the level he plays in the NBA in other leagues and championships where he did not have TD by his side.

You, on the other side, claim Manu is nothing without TD


Manu isn't in that spot if not for TD.

Manu would be in that Spot any decent big.

[Peter]

Truth hurts, doesn't it?


Yet another quality response.

[Peter]

Where did I claim Manu can carry an NBA team to the finals? I simply said that Manu has played at the level he plays in the NBA in other leagues and championships where he did not have TD by his side.

You, on the other side, claim Manu is nothing without TD


That was your response to my observation that Manu isn't in the Finals without TD, as if he could've carried a NBA team to that spot on his own.




Manu would be in that Spot any decent big.

So now TD is just "any decent big".

[IceColdBrewski]

Yet another quality response.

Sorry. I guess talking about chumps and boyfriends is more to your liking?

[Peter]

Sorry. I guess talking about chumps and boyfriends is more to your liking?


It's an appropriate response given what you posted.

[IceColdBrewski]

I'm still waiting for the expert analysis on on how the FIBA rules somehow gave Manu and his team an unfair advantage.

:lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

That was your response to my observation that Manu isn't in the Finals without TD, as if he could've carried a NBA team to that spot on his own.




So now TD is just "any decent big".Nice job twisting shit around http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's not what he said and you know it! We are simply saying Manu and TP would be great even without TD, and you insist on mentioning that TD is better? Well great deduction SHerlock, but guess what, everyone knew that already. Fine, I'm done arguing with your sorry ass, you're obviously hanging from TD's balls for dear life. I can see there is no reasoning with you.

[Peter]

Nice job twisting shit around http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's not what he said and you know it! We are simply saying Manu and TP would be great even without TD, and you insist on mentioning that TD is better? Well great deduction SHerlock, but guess what, everyone knew that already. Fine, I'm done arguing with your sorry ass, you're obviously hanging from TD's balls for dear life. I can see there is no reasoning with you.


What's "great"? Do they get to the postseason without TD?

Seems like you can't participate in this discussion without getting flustered. Poor lad.

[Peter]

I'm still waiting for the expert analysis on on how the FIBA rules somehow gave Manu and his team an unfair advantage.

:lol


Why wait? It's rather obvious. Surely you can figure it out.

[smeagol]

So now TD is just "any decent big".

Man its fruitless having a discussion with you. You twist shit around it's even worse than discussing stuff with my wife :lol

Where did I say TD is any decent big?

All I said is Manu would be a great player playing with half of the bigs in the NBA. Nevertheless, he is and even better player because he plays with Duncan.

Get this through you thick skull. Manu is an awesome player, with or without TD. But he is an even more awesome player with TD. But the guy can create his own shots; he does not need a big attracting attention. So his long three against Indy was also because of Duncan? Please . . .

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Seems like you can't participate in this discussion without getting flustered. Poor lad.well, what can I say, stuborn, repetitive asses get the best out of me, what can I say, I'm human

[101A]

That was your response to my observation that Manu isn't in the Finals without TD, as if he could've carried a NBA team to that spot on his own.



Ok, Ok, we can work with this.

The point of the thread was Manu is top 5 "When it Counts" - nothing more - just that his is, in fact, World - Class CLUTCH "When it Counts" -

The fact stands on its own - doesn't matter why he is even on the floor "When it Counts", but that since he is (as are 9 other players in any game - regardless of why they are there at that moment, or whether they deserve to be), he will be one of the very best AT THAT TIME.

Peter, do you argue that Manu is a top player "When it Counts"? - Or are you just going to keep screaming about FIBA rules & other times when "It doesn't Count"?

[smeagol]

What's "great"? Do they get to the postseason without TD?

Sparky, the discussion is not if Manu alone could carry a team to the post season. The discussion is if Manu is a great player because of TD or is he a great player in his own right.

Many great players, including Kobe, AI, even KG did not make it to the postseason, not to mention all those other great players who never won shit. All of them are still great players.

Bottom line, Manu is a great player because he is naturally talented and has a desire to win which is second to noone in the NBA. And that is the bottom line.

[IceColdBrewski]

Seems like you can't participate in this discussion without getting flustered. Poor lad.

This is a "discussion"? Uh, no. It was a discussion until you decided that it needed to be a pissing contest. After that, it turned into the spectacle of you making an ass of yourself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok, Ok, we can work with this.

The point of the thread was Manu is top 5 "When it Counts" - nothing more - just that his is, in fact, World - Class CLUTCH "When it Counts" -

The fact stands on its own - doesn't matter why he is even on the floor "When it Counts", but that since he is (as are 9 other players in any game - regardless of why they are there at that moment, or whether they deserve to be), he will be one of the very best AT THAT TIME.

Peter, do you argue that Manu is a top player "When it Counts"? - Or are you just going to keep screaming about FIBA rules & other times when "It doesn't Count"?*Waiting for Peter's response* http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[Peter]

So if Manu is playing with Chris Mihm as the team's primary low post threat, he's an All-Star and carrying that team to the NBA Finals?

[leemajors]

Sparky, the discussion is not if Manu alone could carry a team to the post season. The discussion is if Manu is a great player because of TD or is he a great player in his own right.

Many great players, including Kobe, AI, even KG did not make it to the postseason, not to mention all those other great players who never won shit. All of them are still great players.

Bottom line, Manu is a great player because he is naturally talented and has a desire to win which is second to noone in the NBA. And that is the bottom line.
nonsensical response in 5, 4, 3, 2....

[leemajors]

damn he beat me to it =[

[smeagol]

Ok, Ok, we can work with this.

The point of the thread was Manu is top 5 "When it Counts" - nothing more - just that his is, in fact, World - Class CLUTCH "When it Counts" -

The fact stands on its own - doesn't matter why he is even on the floor "When it Counts", but that since he is (as are 9 other players in any game - regardless of why they are there at that moment, or whether they deserve to be), he will be one of the very best AT THAT TIME.

Peter, do you argue that Manu is a top player "When it Counts"? - Or are you just going to keep screaming about FIBA rules & other times when "It doesn't Count"?
You don't get it 101A. Manu is clutch because of TD. All those clutch moments he had in last years run in the playoffs, well guess what, they were because of TD.

Fucking ungreatful, some people are.

[Peter]

Ok, Ok, we can work with this.

The point of the thread was Manu is top 5 "When it Counts" - nothing more - just that his is, in fact, World - Class CLUTCH "When it Counts" -

The fact stands on its own - doesn't matter why he is even on the floor "When it Counts", but that since he is (as are 9 other players in any game - regardless of why they are there at that moment, or whether they deserve to be), he will be one of the very best AT THAT TIME.

Peter, do you argue that Manu is a top player "When it Counts"? - Or are you just going to keep screaming about FIBA rules & other times when "It doesn't Count"?


Sure, Manu excels when he is on a team that's in the Finals due to TD and also due to the fact that TD is the primary focal point for an opposing defense.

[Peter]

This is a "discussion"? Uh, no. It was a discussion until you decided that it needed to be a pissing contest. After that, it turned into the spectacle of you making an ass of yourself.


Funny, you didn't bring any such discussion to this thread. I brought a dissenting opinion and instead of having anything resembling a reasoned response, you opted to flame away.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Sure, Manu excels when he is on a team that's in the Finals due to TD and also due to the fact that TD is the primary focal point for an opposing defense.Hopeless http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[smeagol]

So if Manu is playing with Chris Mihm as the team's primary low post threat, he's an All-Star and carrying that team to the NBA Finals?
Again with your argument of carrying the team to the finals, something I have never said.

If you replace TD with Mihm I guarantee you that the Spurs make the playoffs.

And yes, an injury free Manu in more than half of the teams in this league is an AS.

[Peter]

Hopeless http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif


Yes, it is hopeless to argue that Manu isn't there due to that.

[Peter]

Again with your argument of carrying the team to the finals, something I have never said.

If you replace TD with Mihm I guarantee you that the Spurs make the playoffs.

And yes, an injury free Manu in more than half of the teams in this league is an AS.


Kobe with Mihm wasn't enough to make the playoffs in the West last season.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yes, it is hopeless to argue that Manu isn't there due to that.Its getting really fucking boring that everytime either TP or Manu have a great night, and someone wants to pimp their accomplishments it has to be preceeded with a "Thanks to Duncan" to appease the insecure TD's ball huggers!

[Sportman]

Hey PETER do you have something against manu??.......and if you are a spurs fans, i cant believe you are discussing something is not really important when the team is having SEASON like this.

[Peter]

Its getting really fucking boring that everytime either TP or Manu have a great night, and someone wants to pimp their accomplishments it has to be preceeded with a "Thanks to Duncan" to appease the insecure TD ball huggers!


I guess this entire forum will have to continue to lie to itself in order to appease the need to worship Manu.

[Peter]

Hey PETER do you have something against manu??.......and if you are a spurs fans, i cant believe you are discussing something is not really important when the team is having SEASON like this.


Ah yes, now I'm not a Spurs fan because I recognize TD's importance to the team's success.

[smeagol]

Sure, Manu excels when he is on a team that's in the Finals due to TD and also due to the fact that TD is the primary focal point for an opposing defense.
Well, I guess unless either Manu or TD leave the Spurs we will never know.

The fact is Manu has excelled elsewhere without Timmy. You can say it was not in the NBA, but the fact is he has excelled without a dominant big man.

I'm not sure how good he would be without Duncan, but saying he owes everything he is as a basketball player to TD is a stupid statement. I hope you realize how stupid your argument is. And besides, you cannot prove it.

[IceColdBrewski]

Why wait? It's rather obvious. Surely you can figure it out.

Just as I thought. He has nothing but bullshit. :lmao

Never fails. All you have to do is give em enough rope, and they'll eventually :hang

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I guess this entire forum will have to continue to lie to itself in order to appease the need to worship Manu.Ok, so now acknowledging that Manu is a great player is worshiping?? What the fuck do you call your obsession with Duncan???

[Peter]

Just as I thought. He has nothing but bullshit. :lmao

It's more than you've brought.




Never fails. All you have to do is give em enough rope, and they'll eventually :hang

Or, in your case, just give him a gun and tell him to point it at his head.

[Peter]

Well, I guess unless either Manu or TD leave the Spurs we will never know.

The fact is Manu has excelled elsewhere without Timmy. You can say it was not in the NBA, but the fact is he has excelled without a dominant big man.

I'm not sure how good he would be without Duncan, but saying he owes everything he is as a basketball player to TD is a stupid statement. I hope you realize how stupid your argument is. And besides, you cannot prove it.

Sure, he excelled in a game which deemphasized the importance of a low post threat.

[Peter]

Ok, so now acknowledging that Manu is a great player is worshiping?? What the fuck do you call your obsession with Duncan???

Reality.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Reality.... pointless

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Its getting really fucking boring that everytime either TP or Manu have a great night, and someone wants to pimp their accomplishments it has to be preceeded with a "Thanks to Duncan" to appease the insecure TD's ball huggers!BOTTOM FUCKING LINE RIGHT HERE!! I'm done with this chump

[smeagol]

Sure, he excelled in a game which deemphasized the importance of a low post threat.

At the end of the day, in your book, only big men can be great players. You even downplayed Kobe's talent. You are a lost cause.

[Peter]

BOTTOM FUCKING LINE RIGHT HERE!! I'm done with this chump


When in doubt, capitalize.

[Peter]

At the end of the day, in your book, only big men can be great players. You even downplayed Kobe's talent. You are a lost cause.


No I haven't. I pointed out that even a player like Kobe can struggle without a low post threat.

[IceColdBrewski]

... pointless

Forget it. He's obviously going to keep flinging bullshit until he thinks he has saved a little face. Let him have his fantasy.

[nkdlunch]

I guess this entire forum will have to continue to lie to itself in order to appease the need to worship Manu.
http://www.zboneman.com/movies/images/offspace.jpg



Manu Ginobili:
Titles
2001 Italian League Championship (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Euroleague (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Americas Championship (Argentina)
2002 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2003 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)
2004 Summer Olympic Games Gold Medal (Argentina)
2005 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)

Awards
1999 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League Most Improved Player
2001 Italian League All-Star
2001 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2001 Euroleague Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian Cup Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2002 Ideal Indianapolis World Cup Team
2004 Ideal Olympics Team
2004 Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player
2005 NBA All-Star
2005 Nike Baller Of The Year (fan poll)

yeah it was all thanks to Duncan :lmao

[smeagol]

No I haven't. I pointed out that even a player like Kobe can struggle without a low post threat.
He score 81 pts in one game. He is averaging 35 pts a game.

Yep, the kid is struggling all right.

You are not very intelligent, are you?

[Peter]

He score 81 pts in one game. He is averaging 35 pts a game.

Yep, the kid is struggling all right.

You are not very intelligent, are you?


What seed would his team be if the postseason started today?

[Peter]

Manu Ginobili:
Titles
2001 Italian League Championship (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Euroleague (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Americas Championship (Argentina)
2002 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2003 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)
2004 Summer Olympic Games Gold Medal (Argentina)
2005 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)

Awards
1999 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League Most Improved Player
2001 Italian League All-Star
2001 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2001 Euroleague Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian Cup Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2002 Ideal Indianapolis World Cup Team
2004 Ideal Olympics Team
2004 Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player
2005 NBA All-Star
2005 Nike Baller Of The Year (fan poll)

yeah it was all thanks to Duncan :lmao


Strip away the non-NBA accomplishments and yes, TD was a major factor.

[Peter]

Forget it. He's obviously going to keep flinging bullshit until he thinks he has saved a little face. Let him have his fantasy.


Sounds like your MO.

[nkdlunch]

Strip away the non-NBA accomplishments and yes, TD was a major factor.

don't strip it away, and no, he wasn't

[Peter]

don't strip it away, and no, he wasn't


Right, and were those in the NBA? Were those in a league which emphasizes the value of a low post threat?

[nkdlunch]

Right, and were those in the NBA? Were those in a league which emphasizes the value of a low post threat?

doesn't matter

[Peter]

Sure it does. What league do the Spurs play in?

[doldrums]

Thank god Michael Jordan had Bill Cartwright, or who knows if he ever would have gotten a ring.

[nkdlunch]

Sure it does. What league do the Spurs play in?

if you don't know that u shouln't be posting. it doesn't matter what league, a great player is a great player. this has been proven.

[IceColdBrewski]

Sounds like your MO.

Nah. If I ever come to the table with something as silly as "Fiba rules" as the strongpoint of my arguement, I'll make sure I can back it up with facts and evidence, instead of cowering behind bullshit. :jack

[cheguevara]

I guess this entire forum will have to continue to lie to itself in order to appease the need to worship Manu


http://www.zboneman.com/movies/images/offspace.jpg



Manu Ginobili:
Titles
2001 Italian League Championship (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Euroleague (Kinder Bologna)
2001 Americas Championship (Argentina)
2002 Italian Cup (Kinder Bologna)
2003 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)
2004 Summer Olympic Games Gold Medal (Argentina)
2005 NBA Championship (San Antonio Spurs)

Awards
1999 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League All-Star
2000 Italian League Most Improved Player
2001 Italian League All-Star
2001 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2001 Euroleague Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian Cup Most Valuable Player
2002 Italian League Most Valuable Player
2002 Ideal Indianapolis World Cup Team
2004 Ideal Olympics Team
2004 Summer Olympic Games Most Valuable Player
2005 NBA All-Star
2005 Nike Baller Of The Year (fan poll)

yeah it was all thanks to Duncan :lmao

:lmao :lmao classic!

[Peter]

Thank god Michael Jordan had Bill Cartwright, or who knows if he ever would have gotten a ring.

Now Manu = MJ?

[Peter]

if you don't know that u shouln't be posting. it doesn't matter what league, a great player is a great player. this has been proven.


Not until he can actually carry a NBA team on his own into the postseason. Even the great Kobe couldn't do that last season.

[Peter]

Nah. If I ever come to the table with something as silly as "Fiba rules" as the strongpoint of my arguement, I'll make sure I can back it up with facts and evidence, instead of cowering behind bullshit. :jack


Yeah, it's silly to understand a rather significant difference between the NBA and the Olympics.

[cheguevara]

Not until he can actually carry a NBA team on his own into the postseason. Even the great Kobe couldn't do that last season.

see now you're getting it! Now u just accepted Kobe is great. Next step is to acknowledge Manu is great too.

[5ToolMan]

Yawn ... that became a very a hard read. Sad at the result from such a great potential topic.

As a note to the challanged: Manu and TP's development into stars does nothing to disrespect TD or lessen his importance in future championship runs.

From a hoops standpoint, most who understand the game know the importance of a low post threat. As such most on this board accept all teams and all players are better, and will go further in the NBA playoffs when they play beside a dominant big man.

The sad part is the facts above are not related on bit to the discussion at hand. Yet for some reason the confused one continued to hijack this thread painting a picture of pure ignorance.

Not acknowledging the undisputed clutch TEAM play of Manu, demonstrates a level of denial hard to comprehend. Manu is simply the most decorated player in all of hoops for this era for a combination of team and individual accomplishments. His clutch play cannot be denied. End of story!

[Peter]

see now you're getting it! Now u just accepted Kobe is great. Next step is to acknowledge Manu is great too.


Have either carried a team into the NBA playoffs, let alone the Finals?

[Peter]

Yawn ... that became a very a hard read. Sad at the result from such a great potential topic.

As a note to the challanged: Manu and TP's development into stars does nothing to disrespect TD or lessen his importance in future championship runs.

From a hoops standpoint, most who understand the game know the importance of a low post threat. As such most on this board accept all teams and all players are better, and will go further in the NBA playoffs when they play beside a dominant big man.

The sad part is the facts above are not related on bit to the discussion at hand. Yet for some reason the confused one continued to hijack this thread painting a picture of pure ignorance.

Not acknowledging the undisputed clutch TEAM play of Manu, demonstrates a level of denial hard to comprehend. Manu is simply the most decorated player in all of hoops for this era for a combination of team and individual accomplishments. His clutch play cannot be denied. End of story!


Sure, and as long as the confused ones assert that Manu is on par with a Duncan then they will be in error. Manu needs a TD to be able to make it to the next level. If you cannot appreciate the game without having to be a blind homer to all things Spurs, well, too bad.

[101A]

Sure, and as long as the confused ones assert that Manu is on par with a Duncan then they will be in error. Manu needs a TD to be able to make it to the next level. If you cannot appreciate the game without having to be a blind homer to all things Spurs, well, too bad.


Nobody asserted Manu was on par with Duncan.

You deny Manu would be even a star w/o Duncan, that he couldn't even take a team to the playoffs. Everybody thinks you are wrong. They have cited much evidence, tried logic, and yes, have tried screaming at you and calling you names; none of it has worked.

I am forced to the conclusion that "Peter" is simply a negative processing Web algorithim which has stumbled upon this blog, devoid of reason and logic, and simply designed as a permanent devil's advocate. I suggest we not feed the Peter.

[Peter]

Nobody asserted Manu was on par with Duncan.

Nope, someone did.



You deny Manu would be even a star w/o Duncan, that he couldn't even take a team to the playoffs. Everybody thinks you are wrong. They have cited much evidence, tried logic, and yes, have tried screaming at you and calling you names; none of it has worked.


Right, most of the arguments presented were based on screaming and namecalling. Surest sign that they have no response.




I am forced to the conclusion that "Peter" is simply a negative processing Web algorithim which has stumbled upon this blog, devoid of reason and logic, and simply designed as a permanent devil's advocate. I suggest we not feed the Peter.

Ah yes, the trademark Spurstalk.com response to that which does not glorify a Spur in kneejerk fashion.

[leemajors]

"someone"

[5ToolMan]

Sure, and as long as the confused ones assert that Manu is on par with a Duncan then they will be in error. Manu needs a TD to be able to make it to the next level. If you cannot appreciate the game without having to be a blind homer to all things Spurs, well, too bad.

If you can find any such statement in this thread saying Manu is a bigger star than Manu, post it. If not STFU!

You are the one who hijacked the thread with lies and misquotes to serve your own insecurities about Manu getting some of Tim's love.

Now crawl back into your box and have your Mommie lock the cage. You have been out trying to play with the big boys and girls too long. I can say with confidence that it is really getting annoying for most of the board with your slow state.

[doldrums]

the problem is when Peter is unable to find the phantom statement that "someone " said that Manu is better than TD, he will realize the chunk of his life that he has wasted posting. Happy hunting.

[Peter]

If you can find any such statement in this thread saying Manu is a bigger star than Manu, post it. If not STFU!


Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.




You are the one who hijacked the thread with lies and misquotes to serve your own insecurities about Manu getting some of Tim's love.


I never misquote. What insecurity is there to attempt to be a little objective when assessing the Spurs? If there's any insecurity in this thread on display, it's from those who are unwilling to do anything save for blindly worshipping a player because he's a Spur.




Now crawl back into your box and have your Mommie lock the cage. You have been out trying to play with the big boys and girls too long. I can say with confidence that it is really getting annoying for most of the board with your slow state.

Oh no.

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't annoy the board with an honest appraisal. Better to march in lockstep with everyone else.

[leemajors]

so, he said gnob's team beat duncan's team. the us did lose to argentina. nowhere in that statement does he say gnob is a bigger star than duncan. thanks for proving our point after all this time.

[Peter]

Is that not the implication? At worst, the implication would be that Manu is on par with TD. That is not the case in the NBA. So for that, I get 5 pages of namecalling and screaming. Sobeit. I'd rather not have such blind loyalty constitute what it means to be a fan.

[5ToolMan]

Is that not the implication? At worst, the implication would be that Manu is on par with TD. That is not the case in the NBA. So for that, I get 5 pages of namecalling and screaming. Sobeit. I'd rather not have such blind loyalty constitute what it means to be a fan.

No Peter, it is not an implication that because Manu led his Olympic team to victory over TD's US team that Manu > Tim. The first is a fact. The second would be on opinion ... that no one on this board displayed ... and only you appear to be obsessed with.

In relation to your comments on the blind loyality, how much better do you see with your head stuck in the ground?

[IceColdBrewski]

Damn. The next time he gets owned, I think I'll just keep it to myself. Looks like I created a monster. :D

On second thought, nah. It's too much fun watching him get all riled up. :lmao

[Peter]

No Peter, it is not an implication that because Manu led his Olympic team to victory over TD's US team that Manu > Tim. The first is a fact. The second would be on opinion ... that no one on this board displayed ... and only you appear to be obsessed with.


Actually that was the implication.




In relation to your comments on the blind loyality, how much better do you see with your head stuck in the ground?

Much better than to have my head stuck in the Spurs' collective ass.

[Peter]

Damn. The next time he gets owned, I think I'll just keep it to myself. Looks like I created a monster. :D

On second thought, nah. It's too much fun watching him get all riled up. :lmao


More of the same. No surprise.

[IceColdBrewski]

:lmao

[Peter]

When in doubt, drop an emoticon.

[SequSpur]

Brain freeze.

[IceColdBrewski]

When in doubt, drop an emoticon.


:lmao :lmao

[T Park]

All Ive seen Brewski ever bring is talk bullshit and

Udrih > Parker gems.


If Ginobili was the fantastic best player in the NBA without Duncan.

How come the Spurs lost the top spot in the west to Phoenix when Duncan got hurt at the end of the year?

How come Ginobili didn't lead them to the "same" or "better" record??

question

[smeagol]

Actually that was the implication.

I was the one who posted that statement to further prove my point that Manu is a great player in his own right. I never meant to imply Manu is better than Tim. I'm a Manu homer but not a blind fool.

I have stated many times, and I can post the quotes if you want me to, that TD does make Manu better. That does not mean that Manu cannot do most of what he does if he were playing with other bigs in the NBA. And it certainly does not mean Manu is not an All Star caliber player, in his own right. Denying that is being a blind fool (which at this point I have to assume you are)

He has proven he can be amazing without Tim (unfortunately for my argumentative line, outside the NBA) and my quote was simply stating one of the occasions he did it without Tim, which happened to be against Tim.

So again, you twist the truth. Arguing with you is definitely worst than arguing with my wife :depressed

[Peter]

I was the one who posted that statement to further prove my point that Manu is a great player in his own right. I never meant to imply Manu is better than Tim. I'm a Manu homer but not a blind fool.

I have stated many times, and I can post the quotes if you want me to, that TD does make Manu better. That does not mean that Manu cannot do most of what he does if he were playing with other bigs in the NBA. And it certainly does not mean Manu is not an All Star caliber player, in his own right. Denying that is being a blind fool (which at this point I have to assume you are)

You said earlier that Manu could be such a player with Chris Mihm. Without Tim, Manu is not in the postseason. Manu also does not have a player who makes the game so easy for him. Right now Manu is a borderline All-Star with TD.




He has proven he can be amazing without Tim (unfortunately for my argumentative line, outside the NBA) and my quote was simply stating one of the occasions he did it without Tim, which happened to be against Tim.


And what was the context? It was in a game which deemphasizes the importance of a low post game. Not the NBA.




So again, you twist the truth. Arguing with you is definitely worst than arguing with my wife :depressed

I twisted nothing.

[doldrums]

All Ive seen Brewski ever bring is talk bullshit and

Udrih > Parker gems.


If Ginobili was the fantastic best player in the NBA without Duncan.

How come the Spurs lost the top spot in the west to Phoenix when Duncan got hurt at the end of the year?

How come Ginobili didn't lead them to the "same" or "better" record??

question

Haven't we covered this ground already. NOBODY is stating that Manu is better than TD, just that he's a clutch player . That's all.

[Peter]

Well, someone did, so now we have to move back to the fact that TD gives Manu the opportunity to make clutch plays.

[doldrums]

Well, someone did, so now we have to move back to the fact that TD gives Manu the opportunity to make clutch plays.

Again with the "someone"

[ajh18]

Peter, what is your goal in this conversation? Is it to get someone to say that TD is important to the Spurs? People have said that. That TD is the most important part of the Spurs? People have said that. What outcome would satisfy you here?

[smeagol]

All Ive seen Brewski ever bring is talk bullshit and

Udrih > Parker gems.

You making fun of posters is funny in itself. Your most memorable line in ST.com is "This team stop caring. I quit". That team won the championship, you basketball expert, you.



If Ginobili was the fantastic best player in the NBA without Duncan.

How come the Spurs lost the top spot in the west to Phoenix when Duncan got hurt at the end of the year?

How come Ginobili didn't lead them to the "same" or "better" record??

question

I can turn around your logic and say how come the Spurs needed an 80% Manu to come back from an injury to consolidate a 9-0 run? (i.e. the Spurs need Manu, not as bad as they need TD, but they would not have won last years championship and they certainly will not win this one, if Manu is not playing for the Spurs, and healthy, I might add).

But whatever, you miss the point, as usual. This has never been about TD>Manu or Manu>TD. That is a stupid discussion in itself. This (at least for me) has been about MB saying Manu owes all his NBA achievements to TD (and TP also owes TD everything he is). :lmao

If you don't think that statment is pure idiocy, then you are as dumb as MB

[smeagol]

I twisted nothing.
Do you believe the shit you wright?

How do you turn:


Manu has been in similar sposts without TD. The last one was as early as 2004, when he beat a TD-led team.

into "Manu>TD" or "Manu is on par with TD".

I have said here and in a million threads TD>Manu.

I only used that statement to emphasize the fact Manu can play ball without TD (at this point, I'm beginning to think Manu is simply a role player)

Please stop twisting the truth.

[WalterBenitez]

Hey Peter, Did anyone say that if Manu were playing for Knicks they'll get the finals??? If so, don't pay attention, he/she is kidding you :rolleyes

[smeagol]

Well, someone did, so now we have to move back to the fact that TD gives Manu the opportunity to make clutch plays.
:wtf

yep that someone was me. :rolleyes

I could have said: "Manu runs the court quicker than TD" and this moron would've interpreted as: "Smeagol said Manu>TD"

[T Park]

Too bad this moron has been posting logical, great posts at this website since 90% of the children in this thread were in diapers.

[Peter]

Peter, what is your goal in this conversation? Is it to get someone to say that TD is important to the Spurs? People have said that. That TD is the most important part of the Spurs? People have said that. What outcome would satisfy you here?


The issue was the value of TD to Manu and Parker. The claim was that Manu would be great on his own in the NBA. The Olymics were offered as proof of that. I've disagreed strenuously with that.

[Peter]

Hey Peter, Did anyone say that if Manu were playing for Knicks they'll get the finals??? If so, don't pay attention, he/she is kidding you :rolleyes


Is that not the implication? If Manu doesn't need TD to be great, surely he could carry a team on his own into the postseason.

[IceColdBrewski]

All Ive seen Brewski ever bring is talk bullshit and

Udrih > Parker gems.

Still trying to spin the truth eh porky? Keep trying. Maybe someday you'll convince more than 3 people. :lol



If Ginobili was the fantastic best player in the NBA without Duncan.

How come the Spurs lost the top spot in the west to Phoenix when Duncan got hurt at the end of the year?

How come Ginobili didn't lead them to the "same" or "better" record??

question

This is what I don't understand about Parker homers. The inferiority complex that follows everytime Manu is recognized as a great player. Weird. It isn't Ginobili's fault that Parker isn't quite as good as he is.

[Peter]

Do you believe the shit you wright?

How do you turn:



into "Manu>TD" or "Manu is on par with TD".

I have said here and in a million threads TD>Manu.

I only used that statement to emphasize the fact Manu can play ball without TD (at this point, I'm beginning to think Manu is simply a role player)

Please stop twisting the truth.


I said Manu was there (ie in the Finals and All-Star) due to TD's presence. As it stands, Manu is a borderline All-Star in the NBA and when he's had the chance to carry a team on his own, he's not exactly done so, as last season attested.

[WalterBenitez]

The issue was the value of TD to Manu and Parker. The claim was that Manu would be great on his own in the NBA. The Olymics were offered as proof of that. I've disagreed strenuously with that.

My answers ...

1) Manu would be great on his .... YES
2) The Olympics is a proof .... nah, many Intl players dont have success in this league
3) hey man, what did you do with you vbookies?

[smeagol]

Too bad this moron has been posting logical, great posts at this website since 90% of the children in this thread were in diapers.
Great logic there sport. So because Marcus made snese in the 90s I have to believe everything he says.

And I'm older than you, Tquitter.

[leemajors]

The issue was the value of TD to Manu and Parker. The claim was that Manu would be great on his own in the NBA. The Olymics were offered as proof of that. I've disagreed strenuously with that.

the olympics were offered as proof that ginobili can succeed without duncan, nothing more. i don't know what block is in place that makes you misunderstand that. you are wrong, and it wasn't a big deal till you kept trying to refute it for 5 pages. no matter how much you keep posting, you will still be wrong. deal with it.

[IceColdBrewski]

And I'm older than you, Tquitter.

Oooh. That's gotta hurt.

[T Park]

And I'm older than you, Tquitter

Good for you.

[Peter]

the olympics were offered as proof that ginobili can succeed without duncan, nothing more. i don't know what block is in place that makes you misunderstand that.


So what? That isn't the NBA. There were plenty of reasons why he could succeed in the Olympics while not be a dominant force in the NBA. Pointing to the Olympics to prove that Manu doesn't need TD in the NBA makes no sense.



you are wrong, and it wasn't a big deal till you kept trying to refute it for 5 pages. no matter how much you keep posting, you will still be wrong. deal with it.

Ah yes, I'm right you're wrong nanny nanny poo poo.

[T Park]

Oooh. That's gotta hurt

Yeah,

im in the fetal position as we speak. :lol

[WalterBenitez]

Is that not the implication? If Manu doesn't need TD to be great, surely he could carry a team on his own into the postseason.

The point that mostly of the ppl is saying that MANU has a previous history, and that history shown some good accomplishment, that's it ... because of that some (ME included :D) think that Manu would be a great player in some other NBA Team, but not to carry NY to the Finals ...Well since Atlanta defeated DET and SAS everything is possible,

[Peter]

February upsets mean little.

[IceColdBrewski]

Yeah,

im in the fetal position as we speak. :lol

Fine. So you're not ashamed of being a quitter. Good luck with that. :tu

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I can't believe this shit is still going! Why do you people even bother arguing with a knuckle-head like Marcus?? Oh and on top of that, here comes T-Park to muddle the affair some more?? HAHAHA Hilarious! I said it once and I'll say it again, the bottom line in this thread is this


Its getting really fucking boring that everytime either TP or Manu have a great night, and someone wants to pimp their accomplishments it has to be preceeded with a "Thanks to Duncan" to appease the insecure TD's ball huggers!

Marcus is not going to admit Manu is great, because he is too busy hanging on to Duncan's nuts for dear life! Manu and TP are great basketball players, and there is no need for Marcus' approval to make that a fact! Let him believe what he wants, people, or you'll die of old age trying to pry reason from his cold dead neurosis.

[T Park]

Manu and TP are great basketball players because of Ducan's influence


Congrats Manu, you got it right!!!



Too bad more than half of his forum likes me, and thinks your a whacko.

[T Park]

So you're not ashamed of being a quitter

About as ashamed as you are of how much youve ridden Parker's ass, and being wrong about him.

[smeagol]

Too bad more than half of his forum likes me, and thinks your a whacko.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

A few people might like TPark the person. I can assure you most of the forum thinks TPark the poster is a moron.

[T Park]

A few people might like TPark the person. I can assure you most of the forum thinks TPark the poster is a moron.


Go ahead and make a poll fuckball.

[ALVAREZ6]

WTF....2 huge Manu threads, we should merge them...


It looks like Manu is bringing a lot of hate..WTF is goin on people, the Spurs are about to pass the Pistons...

[IceColdBrewski]

About as ashamed as you are of how much youve ridden Parker's ass, and being wrong about him.

Up until this year, Paker was a slightly better than average point guard. Plain and simple. I wasn't wrong, so I have nothing to be ashamed of. I just pointed out the truth, and Parker ball washers like yourself couldn't handle it.

[T Park]

And you said Parker this year wouldn't make the all star game either skippy.

But of course, that was misconstrued and spun also Im sure.

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

Considering that Duncan and Kobe are the only two to have played "when it counts" (the finals), I'd say your list is wrong.

Along with AI and Billups...Iverson gave the Lakers all they could handle in the Finals and Billups was killing us all last year.

[IceColdBrewski]

And you said Parker this year wouldn't make the all star game either skippy.

You're talking about an NBA popularity contest. I'm talking about basketball when it counts. Parker was inconsistent and sporadic. I wasn't wrong.

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

Go ahead and make a poll fuckball.

I vote for the moron option.

[WalterBenitez]

I vote for the moron option.
Could I vote twice?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

And if in the last seconds of the game, any game...and you need to score. Manu at the top of the key is the best play in the league.

And that's the truth ;)

Damn straight. Watch games 1,2 and 7 of the Finals to see what Ginobili can do.

As for you Peter, WTF are you talking about? Manu is not only clutch but one of the most efficient SGs in the league. If he was the only option on a team, sure, you could shut him down (as you can anyone), but he is a player that makes those around him better, and he has every skill on the court. He would certainly be a star and could carry any team for large parts of a season. Why don't you go and learn something about the game? Shmuck.

[Peter]

Manu's not a franchise player in the L, not even close. Learn a little about the game yourself, Aussie, before you open hit reply again.

[leemajors]

Manu's not a franchise player in the L, not even close. Learn a little about the game yourself, Aussie, before you open hit reply again.

who called manu a franchise player? no one. give it up.

[WalterBenitez]

Hey, no discussion today? is there any conclusion? here goes mine:

1)The only Super Star in Spurs is TD (very basic, but necessary at this point).

2)TP is 2006 AS, mainly because of him.

3)MANU had success even before playing in this league.

4)Some of us think that MANU is good enough to make impact in any NBA Team

5)Some of you (:D) think MANU has impact in this league because of TD

[Phenomanul]

Good Article...

[smeagol]

who called manu a franchise player? no one. give it up.
That's one of Peter's trademarks. He implies to much from other people's posts and then he equates those self-made implications into truths (and therefore, twists other people's arguments). And he is good at it too because he will repeat and though at you and others this lie over and over again until other people start believing it.

[nkdlunch]

let this thread die before Peter starts hitting the pipe again today

[WalterBenitez]

let this thread die before Peter starts hitting the pipe again today

He's taking a nap, he'll answer in 10, 9, 8, ... :drunk

[rascal]

Owned by what? Put Ginobili on a team in the NBA as the first option and they'd be lucky to see the postseason.


Agree with Peter. You can't compare the nba with an international basketball tournament that most nba players didn't even care enough about to put out a good effort. I don't see any players off that Argentinian team putting up big numbers in the nba. Manu is the best off that team.



Manu not only should not be an all star this year he shouldn't have made it last year. His numbers were not good last year. It must have been to increase the international interest as to why he made it last year.


If you don't have good enough stats you should not beat out players that do. Team play is rewarded with a championship at the end of the year and should not have any barring on all star selections.

[cheguevara]

You can't compare the nba with an international basketball tournament that most nba players didn't even care enough about to put out a good effort.

ask the NBA US players(AI, TD, Lebron,Wade,etc) that went if they cared, they will say yes very much.



I don't see any players off that Argentinian team putting up big numbers in the nba. Manu is the best off that team.

who cares? this thread is about Manu, not Argentina. manu >>>>>>>> than any other player in Argentina history



Manu not only should not be an all star this year he shouldn't have made it last year. His numbers were not good last year either. It must have been to increase the international interest as to why he made it last year.

says you, most NBA "coaches"(more experienced than you) disagree. (the NBA doesn't control the coaches' decisions on allstars)

[rascal]

Just because somebody is in a high position of authority(George Bush as a good example) doesn't mean that all their decisions are correct or can't be challenged. I've seen many nba gm's and coaches screw up teams with bad trades or poor draft selections that many of the fans knew better.

[cheguevara]

1 or 2 coaches maybe. But 26 coaches screwing up at a time????

u gotta be kidding

[Peter]

Well, the coaches didn't disagree this season.

The primary difference in the Olympics and the NBA are the defensive rules. It's why a player like Oberto can look like a star in the Olympics and look rather ordinary in the NBA. The rules mask defensive deficiencies and devalue the worth of extraordinary bigman talent like Duncan. Put the Argentine team in the NBA and they'd be lucky to break .500 in a season. This is why citing the Olympics as proof of Manu's stardom is suspect.

[rascal]

International stardom does not translate to nba stardom.

[cheguevara]

International stardom does not translate to nba stardom.

and vice-versa. (eg 2004 USA Olympic team)

[Peter]

and vice-versa. (eg 2004 USA Olympic team)


Right, and what league are the Spurs in?

[rascal]

1 or 2 coaches maybe. But 26 coaches screwing up at a time????

u gotta be kidding


I still don't believe that the higher ups in the nba didn't have any input in Manu's selection. I don't believe everything that I'm told. I know there is always way more behind closed door stuff that the general public never hears about. Especially in politics.

I've learned a long time ago life is not fair.

[cheguevara]

I still don't believe that the higher ups in the nba didn't have any input in Manu's selection. I don't believe everything that I'm told. I know there is always way more behind closed door stuff that the general public never hears about. Especially in politics.

I've learned a long time ago life is not fair.


ok then. If it was so unbeleivable to you, then maybe Spurs didn't win the NBA championship then. :rolleyes

[rascal]

and vice-versa. (eg 2004 USA Olympic team)
The nba is the best league in the world. And that is where all comparisons should stay. Saying or believing that an international team is overall better because they won a short tounament is foolish.


The best players overall play in the nba.

[cheguevara]

The best players overall play in the nba.

and they got their ass beat in the olympics by Puerto Rico :lmao

[rascal]

ok then. If it was so unbeleivable to you, then maybe Spurs didn't win the NBA championship then. :rolleyes


This does not make any sense.

[rascal]

and they got their ass beat in the olympics by Puerto Rico :lmao
So what. Nobody said the nba players can never be beaten. Thats all it shows. That the nba players can be beaten at times.


The nba players given enough practice time will win far more often because they are better.

[cheguevara]

So what. Nobody said the nba players can never be beaten. Thats all it shows. That the nba players can be beaten at times.


The nba players given enough practice time will win far more often because they are better.


dude one thing you need to learn about the olympics is if you lose in one, you were not good enough at that time. period. no ifs, whens, or buts.

live w/it

[leemajors]

if he was selected to the all star game by the coaches of the NBA, then there is a strong sentiment that he belongs there. regardless of what your small mind may think, ginobili deserved the all star nod and it was certainly validated by his play in he postseason.

[smeagol]

rascal downplaying Manu's achievemnts.

Why am I not surprised?

[Peter]

dude one thing you need to learn about the olympics is if you lose in one, you were not good enough at that time. period. no ifs, whens, or buts.

live w/it


Sure, now all we need is for the NBA to adopt FIBA rules.

[WalterBenitez]

Sure, now all we need is for the NBA to adopt FIBA rules.

Under FIBA's rules TV rating will go down and some NBA's Supertars will get travellin' everytime they get the ball

[Nikos]

1) Manu is not a franchise player not close. By franchise I mean a player who can single handedly keep a team competetive and afloat in the playoffs by simply having solid role players and a consistent supporting cast for 2-3 years.

2) Manu is an excellent complimentary player and all star calibur in that role.

3) Manu isn't an all star this season, but deserved it last season because he was extremely efficient statistically, and got a boost when he exploded for 48 against the best team in the league on the road.

Without that game, the coaches likely don't put him in the all-star game. Other players had better stats and were probably more talented as scorers for bad teams. But when your stats are efficient and your scoring 16ppg 5rpg 4apg with good defense in 28mpg on a team whose leading scorer is barely getting 20ppg, you are going to get credit for that teams success. Remember the Spurs got off to a hot start pre All star game 2005. Ginobili is one of many players in the past who got on by virtue of having a hot start on a great team.

4) Manu was without a doubt an all star calibur player in the playoffs last season. You can argue the stats all you want in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was the teams most efficient and productive offensive player statistically. Yes Duncan was the #1 option, but Manu was barely missing shots, and when he wasn't shooting 7-11 from the field, he was getting to the line 8-9 times a game. Not to mention upping his rebound numbers, and basically all the other stats across the board. His efficiency and PRODUCTIVENESS was absoluttely absurd for a support player. I don' t really remember a second banana who was that efficient and productive in recent history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant (and he wasn't very good in 2004).

5) Manu's play in the olympics showed he can play well against USA talent -- that he can drive, shoot, and compete with them. He wasn't like the Italian players spotting up 7 feet beyond the arc and getting hot. He took them inside, and made shots on the outside. He played solid overall basketball and lead his team to the victory. Several other N BA calibur players could probably do the same thing if they had the same chemistry he had with his fellow Argie mates. But nonetheless it was an impressive showing in 2004 from Manu. It doesn't make him a franchise player. It just shows he has the overall game and leadership abilities to be an all star calibur player who can be a spectacular playmaker in his own right on many occasions. Not like a franchise player, but a good NBA player.

[smeagol]

1) Manu is not a franchise player not close. By franchise I mean a player who can single handedly keep a team competetive and afloat in the playoffs by simply having solid role players and a consistent supporting cast for 2-3 years.

2) Manu is an excellent complimentary player and all star calibur in that role.

3) Manu isn't an all star this season, but deserved it last season because he was extremely efficient statistically, and got a boost when he exploded for 48 against the best team in the league on the road.

Without that game, the coaches likely don't put him in the all-star game. Other players had better stats and were probably more talented as scorers for bad teams. But when your stats are efficient and your scoring 16ppg 5rpg 4apg with good defense in 28mpg on a team whose leading scorer is barely getting 20ppg, you are going to get credit for that teams success. Remember the Spurs got off to a hot start pre All star game 2005. Ginobili is one of many players in the past who got on by virtue of having a hot start on a great team.

4) Manu was without a doubt an all star calibur player in the playoffs last season. You can argue the stats all you want in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was the teams most efficient and productive offensive player statistically. Yes Duncan was the #1 option, but Manu was barely missing shots, and when he wasn't shooting 7-11 from the field, he was getting to the line 8-9 times a game. Not to mention upping his rebound numbers, and basically all the other stats across the board. His efficiency and PRODUCTIVENESS was absoluttely absurd for a support player. I don' t really remember a second banana who was that efficient and productive in recent history, with the exception of Kobe Bryant (and he wasn't very good in 2004).

5) Manu's play in the olympics showed he can play well against USA talent -- that he can drive, shoot, and compete with them. He wasn't like the Italian players spotting up 7 feet beyond the arc and getting hot. He took them inside, and made shots on the outside. He played solid overall basketball and lead his team to the victory. Several other N BA calibur players could probably do the same thing if they had the same chemistry he had with his fellow Argie mates. But nonetheless it was an impressive showing in 2004 from Manu. It doesn't make him a franchise player. It just shows he has the overall game and leadership abilities to be an all star calibur player who be a spectacular playmaker in his own right on many occasions. Not like a franchise player, but a good NBA player.
:tu

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

rascal downplaying Manu's achievemnts.

Why am I not surprised?

Why do you even bother reading what those people have to say?

They were always haters, they'll always be. Their speech is always the same. They are a lunatic minority.

http://www.sfist.com/attachments/sfist_jackson/mr_t_blue.jpg

"I pity the fool who hates Manu Ginobili!"

[WalterBenitez]

1) Manu is not a franchise player not close....

2) Manu is an excellent player and all star....

3) Manu isn't an all star this season, but deserved it last season because ...

4) Manu was without a doubt an all star calibur player in the playoffs last season...

5) Manu's play in the olympics ...

Good enough for me :king , just to add ... 6) Manu has an Intl career before he played in the NBA ... being the only player in Bball's history of getting NBA Champ + Olympics Gold Medal + Euro League Champ ... and... and

[doldrums]

This is what Rascal quoted in June of '04, how can you believe anything he writes.

rascal
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Does marcus have that much power.

I saw all no's until Marcus Bryant posted, then after he posts the Yes's start up.

I say NO

Manu isn't that good. Lock him up and forget about getting anyone who really is a star.

Duncan, Manu and Parker as the core of the team won't win a championship. I see that core not having enough to even make it to the finals.Manu may never get much better than what we see now. He is good but easily replaceable.

He may never make an all star team or be a consistent go to player who can dominate a game. Lock him up and your left with hoping he develops into a star.

I doubt that happens. Its better to target a proven talent instead of hoping one develops into one.

So No