Bowen second dirtiest player in the NBA according to his peers.

[sickdsm]

Sports Illustrated asked 248 players, ``Who is the dirtiest player in the NBA?''

The runaway pick was Seattle's Danny Fortson, with 27 percent of the vote, followed by San Antonio's Bruce Bowen, 16 percent, and Seattle's Reggie Evans and Sacramento's Ron Artest with 9 percent each.

[Sec24Row7]

Most of them voted for Kerry Too, so you have to take their opinion with a grain of salt.

:drunk

[stretchman21]

Most of them voted for Kerry Too, so you have to take their opinion with a grain of salt.

:drunk
thats dumb. they play the game. we dont. they know what they are talking about MUCH more than any of us will EVER know.

[ducks]

ray allen ,vc,



I doubt kobe voted for bowen
I respect kobe for that

[gospursgojas]

Damn 36% coming from one team... we all know that already, after last years 2nd round of the playoffs

[spursfaninla]

GET OVER IT PEOPLE. Stockton was dirty, and so was Malone. Manu leads with his knees and his "bows, now too.

Bowen cheats, and he cheats well. I don't think he intends to really permanently maim anyone, but he puts alittle hurt into the game when he can get away with it. Having a bruiser is an integral component to playing elite-level defense. Think Rodman wasn't considered dirty? Think Jordan didn't get away with slapping people when stealing the ball, that Reggie didn't throw guys into the stands when trying to get free for the last second shot?

The Bruce knows angles, and knows what the ref's will let him do. He is not great because he is dirty, but he is allowed to get away with some stuff because he is a great defender.

sidenote: I'm not sure who is the "dirtiest" piston, maybe sheed. Who do you think is the dirtiest piston now, if any?

[gospursgojas]

GET OVER IT PEOPLE. Stockton was dirty, and so was Malone. Manu leads with his knees and his "bows, now too.

Bowen cheats, and he cheats well. I don't think he intends to really permanently maim anyone, but he puts alittle hurt into the game when he can get away with it. Having a bruiser is an integral component to playing elite-level defense. Think Rodman wasn't considered dirty? Think Jordan didn't get away with slapping people when stealing the ball, that Reggie didn't throw guys into the stands when trying to get free for the last second shot?

The Bruce knows angles, and knows what the ref's will let him do. He is not great because he is dirty, but he is allowed to get away with some stuff because he is a great defender.

sidenote: I'm not sure who is the "dirtiest" piston, maybe sheed. Who do you think is the dirtiest piston now, if any?

Karl Malone= Dirtiest Player in NBA history

Even if he didnt knock Dave out...I would still think this

[King]

Bowen and Artest on the list. The two players widely considered to be the best perimeter defenders. Maybe they're on to something.

[MoSpur]

I'm glad Bowen was voted in the top. To me it says that the guys who were asked let Bowen get inside their heads.

[sickdsm]

What makes Bruce Bowen himself on defense is just those iffy, semi-dirty moves.

Otherwise he's just Hassell, Ariza, or Pietrus on defense.


Remember that the next time you bitch about the refs.

[Bruno]

Whole results (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/players/02/07/poll.0207/)

Who is the dirtiest player in the NBA?

Danny Fortson, Sonics.....27%
Bruce Bowen, Spurs.....16%
Reggie Evans, Sonics.....9%
Ron Artest, Kings.....9%
Andres Nucioni, Bulls.....6%
Matt Harpring, Jazz.....5%
Dikembe Mutombo, Rockets.....3%
Raja Bell, Suns.....3%
Mark Madsen, Timberwolves.....2%
Kobe Bryant, Lakers.....1%

underrated/overrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/players/02/14/poll.0214/)

Who's the most underrated player in the NBA?

Chauncey Billups, Pistons.....14%
Elton Brand, Clippers.....12%
Chris Bosh, Raptors.....5%
Gilbert Arenas, Wizards.....3%
Tayshaun Prince, Pistons.....3%
Ricky Davis, Timberwolves.....2%
Rashard Lewis, Sonics.....2%
Earl Boykins, Nuggests.....2%
Josh Howard, Mavericks.....2%
Tony Parker, Spurs....2%

The most overrated?

Nick Laham/Getty Images
Stephon Marbury, Knicks.....12%
Yao Ming, Rockets.....10%
Steve Francis, Magic.....9%
Carmello Anthony, Nuggets.....5%
Tracy McGrady, Rockets.....4%
Michael Olowokandi, Celtics.....4%
Kobe Bryant, Lakers.....3%
Paul Pierce, Celtics.....3%
Kenyon Martin, Nuggets.....3%
Jermaine O'Neal, Pacers.....3%

[nkdlunch]

just love when he kicks players in the face like he did with that bitch Wally hahahaha

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Maybe they just mean he needs to shower ;)

Quit being so whiny sickDsm.

The league is full of prima donnas, and the last thing prima donnas like is someone playing defense. Hence, Bowen and Artest in the top 5.

Remember this the next time you whine about Bowen - we own you.

[kskonn]

all the results are pretty interesting. Especially the most overrated category.

[SpursWoman]

I think it's awesome that everyone knows exactly what his name is.



It means he made an impression. :hat

[SpursWoman]

all the results are pretty interesting. Especially the most overrated category.


Yeah....we have those threads all of the time, but it's kind of funny seeing that the players feel that way about them, too. :spin

[FromWayDowntown]

Who's the most underrated player in the NBA?

Chauncey Billups, Pistons.....14%
Elton Brand, Clippers.....12%
Chris Bosh, Raptors.....5%
Gilbert Arenas, Wizards.....3%
Tayshaun Prince, Pistons.....3%
Ricky Davis, Timberwolves.....2%
Rashard Lewis, Sonics.....2%
Earl Boykins, Nuggests.....2%
Josh Howard, Mavericks.....2%
Tony Parker, Spurs....2%

The most overrated?

Stephon Marbury, Knicks.....12%
Yao Ming, Rockets.....10%
Steve Francis, Magic.....9%
Carmello Anthony, Nuggets.....5%
Tracy McGrady, Rockets.....4%
Michael Olowokandi, Celtics.....4%
Kobe Bryant, Lakers.....3%
Paul Pierce, Celtics.....3%
Kenyon Martin, Nuggets.....3%
Jermaine O'Neal, Pacers.....3%

Don't show these latter results to Mavs' fan -- many of them are quite convinced that Parker and Ginobili are horribly overrated.

That NBA players -- those who would know more about it than us -- would disagree, we'd miss them for the 3 hours they took trying to devise a retort. NBA players think Tony Parker is underrated? Manu isn't atop the overrated list? What, what, what? How is that possible!?!?!?!

[SenorSpur]

If Bruce is so dirty, why is it that he almost never fouls out of games?

[stretchman21]

Don't show these latter results to Mavs' fan -- many of them are quite convinced that Parker and Ginobili are horribly overrated.

That NBA players -- those who would know more about it than us -- would disagree, we'd miss them for the 3 hours they took trying to devise a retort. NBA players think Tony Parker is underrated? Manu isn't atop the overrated list? What, what, what? How is that possible!?!?!?!
haha. its quite funny how you twist words so much. i never said "horribly" overrated. just IMO, they are overrated by many analysts. i could be wrong. however, having ONE great year does NOT make you a superstar. people that say they are superstars are overrating them. that is a fact.

[Supergirl]

If Bruce is so dirty, why is it that he almost never fouls out of games?

EXACTLY. Bowen is the only player on the list of "dirty" players who doesn't get technicals all the time, or foul out of games. Bowen can play his game and not get a single foul called, or he can get 4-5 fouls called. Never does he foul out. He has NEVER been called for a flagrant foul, unlike Fortson or Evans or Artest...

Bowen is the best defender in the league because he plays on the perimeter, he guards each team's best scorer and most of the time shuts him down, and because he does it all without becoming nasty or mean.

But the players who filled out this survey are obviously having nightmares about Bowen. He's in their head. Hahaha. I love it.

[Sportman]

The dirtiest player of the nba is without a doubt Ron artest, bruce just try to do his job, but i dont think he have ever wanted to hurt someone and that´s something fortson or artest could do. Because they dont care the other people they just love being in trouble. Nevertheless, i am not saying bruce didnt have had a dirty play but i personally think he never seeks to hurt anybody.

[stretchman21]

EXACTLY. Bowen is the only player on the list of "dirty" players who doesn't get technicals all the time, or foul out of games. Bowen can play his game and not get a single foul called, or he can get 4-5 fouls called. Never does he foul out. He has NEVER been called for a flagrant foul, unlike Fortson or Evans or Artest...

Bowen is the best defender in the league because he plays on the perimeter, he guards each team's best scorer and most of the time shuts him down, and because he does it all without becoming nasty or mean.

But the players who filled out this survey are obviously having nightmares about Bowen. He's in their head. Hahaha. I love it.
NEVER gotten a flagrant foul? i would LOVE for you to show me proof of that. that is VERY hard to believe. i cant recall 100%, but they may have given him a flagrant-1 after elbowing finley. i think the league reviewed it, and added a flagrant-1, along with a fine. i could be wrong, but im still gunna say that to say he NEVER has gotten a flagrant foul is bullshit.

[Dunc]

GET OVER IT PEOPLE. Stockton was dirty, and so was Malone. Manu leads with his knees and his "bows, now too.

Bowen cheats, and he cheats well. I don't think he intends to really permanently maim anyone, but he puts alittle hurt into the game when he can get away with it. Having a bruiser is an integral component to playing elite-level defense. Think Rodman wasn't considered dirty? Think Jordan didn't get away with slapping people when stealing the ball, that Reggie didn't throw guys into the stands when trying to get free for the last second shot?

The Bruce knows angles, and knows what the ref's will let him do. He is not great because he is dirty, but he is allowed to get away with some stuff because he is a great defender.

sidenote: I'm not sure who is the "dirtiest" piston, maybe sheed. Who do you think is the dirtiest piston now, if any?


Couple things... who cares if Bowen is dirty?? I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but if you need to play "dirty" to help your team, then that's what you have to do. You do what it takes to help your team. Period. So I respect that. I wouldn't want to be on the end of the flying foot like Wally-World, but I don't have to be, so I can talk like this. :lol
Second up about the dirtiest Piston, that's a good question. We don't have anybody like Rodman or Laimbeer or Mahorn, so I don't know if you can really call any of them "dirty", per se. My vote as of this moment is Carlos Delfino, as he seemed to be the only Piston capable of fouling Shaq hard enough to keep him from getting a good shot off on Sunday... :pctoss
Gotta love Delfino, or I suppose now Pistons fans can call him Carlos, since Arroyo is off to Disneyland.....

:fro

[SpursWoman]

Bowen got a flagrant for his Bruce Lee kick to Wally's grill. :spin

[Amuseddaysleeper]

just love when he kicks players in the face like he did with that bitch Wally hahahaha

OK now i have to post my signature again! :lol

enjoy fellas!

[Sportman]

Couple things... who cares if Bowen is dirty?? I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but if you need to play "dirty" to help your team, then that's what you have to do.

That´s a good point. Denis Rodman did that with the chicago bulls and they got positive results, so now what´s the matter spurs does the same :rolleyes :rolleyes

[Joepa]

Funny how the best defenders are always "dirty"

[pache100]

i could be wrong.

http://i1.tinypic.com/nydb46.gif


however, having ONE great year does NOT make you a superstar. people that say they are superstars are overrating them. that is a fact.

http://i1.tinypic.com/nye0ix.jpg http://i1.tinypic.com/nye0p2.jpg


Alrighty. Good thing we don't care what you think (what you think is not necessarily a fact).

They look like superstars to me. This represents TWO years...and there was a pretty dang good year in between, too.

How many of these celebrations has "Superstar Dork" had? Oh, yeah...none.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

sickdsm,

Who did the NBA players vote as the current superstar most likely to never win a championship?

http://www.kingwho.com/geargab/Images/Kevin_Garnett3.jpg

[sickdsm]

Maybe they just mean he needs to shower ;)

Quit being so whiny sickDsm.

The league is full of prima donnas, and the last thing prima donnas like is someone playing defense. Hence, Bowen and Artest in the top 5.

Remember this the next time you whine about Bowen - we own you.


Where was Ben Wallace on that list again?


That's what i thought.


Maytag.

[sickdsm]

sickdsm,

Who did the NBA players vote as the current superstar most likely to never win a championship?

http://www.kingwho.com/geargab/Images/Kevin_Garnett3.jpg



Your point? KG doesn't have the luxury of putting 10 and 12 pt games back to back and winning them both.

All that says that the NBA players are VERY well aware that KG's teamates suck, more than the fans here seem to be able to grasp.

[FromWayDowntown]

haha. its quite funny how you twist words so much. i never said "horribly" overrated. just IMO, they are overrated by many analysts. i could be wrong. however, having ONE great year does NOT make you a superstar. people that say they are superstars are overrating them. that is a fact.

I'm not responding directly to you, but to the rampant cries from Mavericks fans that Ginobili and Parker are somehow "overrated." If they played in Dallas, I suspect you'd have a very different opinion of each of them.

I don't know that anyone can objectively call either one a superstar, but they're clearly among the difference makers at their positions and they've each improved tremendously while in the league. Words like superstar and great are thrown around far too often for my taste. But each is clearly a star -- players aren't named to the All-Star team by the coaches on some lark; surely you can't doubt that it's an earned accomplishment and players who reach that level are deemed by those inside the game to be among the best at their positions. The fastidious obsession among Mavericks fans with downplaying the accomplishments of Parker and Ginobili is rather odd.

In real terms, Manu may be closer to being a superstar -- or may be considered a superstar by some analysts -- because he's been the dominant player on a team that has excelled in international play while also becoming an NBA All-Star and a 2 time champion in 3 NBA seasons. Say what you will, but that is an impressive resume. I doubt that many players would consider him overrated, because while his numbers don't dazzle, his ability to change games is as pronounced as anyone's. Kobe has hinted at that and certainly coaches like George Karl, Mike D'Antoni, and Larry Brown are keenly aware of Manu's abilities. You don't see any of those guys saying that he's overrated.

Parker is 23. He's an all-star at 23. After the last few playoff runs, he's been reamed in the media and by fans for being the weakest of the Spurs Big 3. He's responded by elevating his game and made himself into a force that can win games with or without Tim Duncan. For the time being, he's the most consistently excellent player on the team with the third best record in basketball. I don't know that anyone is arguing for his entry into the Hall of Fame quite yet, but his recognition as an all-star is anything but a fluke. Give credit where credit is due -- NBA players apparently do.

[vanvannen]

I'm not responding directly to you, but to the rampant cries from Mavericks fans that Ginobili and Parker are somehow "overrated." If they played in Dallas, I suspect you'd have a very different opinion of each of them.

I don't know that anyone can objectively call either one a superstar, but they're clearly among the difference makers at their positions and they've each improved tremendously while in the league. Words like superstar and great are thrown around far too often for my taste. But each is clearly a star -- players aren't named to the All-Star team by the coaches on some lark; surely you can't doubt that it's an earned accomplishment and players who reach that level are deemed by those inside the game to be among the best at their positions. The fastidious obsession among Mavericks fans with downplaying the accomplishments of Parker and Ginobili is rather odd.

In real terms, Manu may be closer to being a superstar -- or may be considered a superstar by some analysts -- because he's been the dominant player on a team that has excelled in international play while also becoming an NBA All-Star and a 2 time champion in 3 NBA seasons. Say what you will, but that is an impressive resume. I doubt that many players would consider him overrated, because while his numbers don't dazzle, his ability to change games is as pronounced as anyone's. Kobe has hinted at that and certainly coaches like George Karl, Mike D'Antoni, and Larry Brown are keenly aware of Manu's abilities. You don't see any of those guys saying that he's overrated.

Parker is 23. He's an all-star at 23. After the last few playoff runs, he's been reamed in the media and by fans for being the weakest of the Spurs Big 3. He's responded by elevating his game and made himself into a force that can win games with or without Tim Duncan. For the time being, he's the most consistently excellent player on the team with the third best record in basketball. I don't know that anyone is arguing for his entry into the Hall of Fame quite yet, but his recognition as an all-star is anything but a fluke. Give credit where credit is due -- NBA players apparently do.

Great Post :tu

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

A wise person once stated:

"Every time the calender turns March, KG's nuts retreat."

[WalterBenitez]

just love when he kicks players in the face like he did with that bitch Wally hahahaha

That wasn't a foul, just a high screen :lol

[WalterBenitez]

If Bruce is so dirty, why is it that he almost never fouls out of games?

Excellent observation :nerd

[JamStone]

If you can get away with it, do it, if it helps your team win. Michael Jordan was dirty. Larry Bird was dirty.

Bill Laimbeer was beloved by Detroit fans for his dirty tactics.

I think Bruce Bowen is great. Dirty, yes. But, still great. That's part of his mental make-up and what makes him so mentally tough.

[pache100]

I think Danny Ainge was the dirtiest player ever, probably because he was sooo subtle with it. Did you know he was a baseball player, too? He wasn't drafted until the second round (1981)because everybody was afraid he'd never leave baseball to play in the NBA.

http://i1.tinypic.com/nyfbs3.jpg http://i1.tinypic.com/nyfbx4.jpg

[jochhejaam]

If you can get away with it, do it, if it helps your team win.

I think Bruce Bowen is great. Dirty, yes. But, still great. That's part of his mental make-up and what makes him so mentally tough.
I didn't mind his tactics against us because there wasn't anything overly flagrant about them, that and the fact that he doesn't talk smack or act cocky which would probably get a closer look from the refs.
He's got my respect and I'd be happy to have him on our team.

[zero signal]

Does anyone have the pic of Bruce jumpkicking in a Miami uni? That's another portrait of greatness. He looked just like Liu Kang, with this perfectly horizontal kick to the guy's face.

[jochhejaam]

Does anyone have the pic of Bruce jumpkicking in a Miami uni? That's another portrait of greatness. He looked just like Liu Kang, with this perfectly horizontal kick to the guy's face.
One of the Spurs fans has it in motion in his sig. I don't recall that moment, did Bruce offer an explanation? Even though it looked intentional I can't imagine that it was.

[Peter]

How is this a bad thing from a Spurs fan perspective? Am I the only one who sees the irony in a Spur being referred to as "dirty"? Oh, for the days of "soft", "Charmin", etc...

Good Times.™ IMO :hat

[implacable44]

Karl Malone= Dirtiest Player in NBA history

Even if he didnt knock Dave out...I would still think this


What ??? Karl Malone - probably the best power forward in the history of the league - and how can you say he is dirtier than Rodman ?

[polandprzem]

If Bruce is so dirty, why is it that he almost never fouls out of games?

Yup - the refs should whistle more on him from time to time and then tel him to go under the shower

[implacable44]

I think Danny Ainge was the dirtiest player ever, probably because he was sooo subtle with it. Did you know he was a baseball player, too? He wasn't drafted until the second round (1981)because everybody was afraid he'd never leave baseball to play in the NBA.

http://i1.tinypic.com/nyfbs3.jpg http://i1.tinypic.com/nyfbx4.jpg

Danny Ainge ? are you serious ? Ever? Danny Ainge is dirtier than Rodman ? Kobe ( dont forget that blatant elbow to the face of mike miller) ? Charles Oakley ? Anthony Mason ? Any of the bad boys ? and lets not forget back in the early days when teams had the typical bruiser they would send out to get 5 fouls and hurt someone ....

[Peter]

What the Spurs could use would be a bigman with Bowen's mentality. Right now they have single ply lotion coated Charmin starting at center.

[bdubya]

What ??? Karl Malone - probably the best power forward in the history of the league - and how can you say he is dirtier than Rodman ?

Malone is definitely the dirtiest STAR ever (there may have been worse, but not among major players). Denying that elbow-swingin' sh!t-for-head a ring was one of the sweetest elements of the '04 title.

Bowen's "dirty" play, to me, just looks like using every millimeter of slack he can get from the refs to maximize his effectiveness on D, and it's REAL hard to argue with the results. Yeah, he'll get a little rough if the refs aren't looking, but when they draw the line, he just works with it.

As for the "dirtiest" Piston...I gotta say Rip won't hesitate to grab and hold on D if he can get away with it. Doesn't seem to have Bowen's sense for when the refs are looking and when they're not, though.

[T Park]

jealousy.

The Mavericks fans wish they had 1 defender that was a quarter of the way as good as Bowen.

And dont give me Adrian Griffen or Diop.

They blow chunks.

[stretchman21]

http://i1.tinypic.com/nydb46.gif



http://i1.tinypic.com/nye0ix.jpg http://i1.tinypic.com/nye0p2.jpg


Alrighty. Good thing we don't care what you think (what you think is not necessarily a fact).

They look like superstars to me. This represents TWO years...and there was a pretty dang good year in between, too.

How many of these celebrations has "Superstar Dork" had? Oh, yeah...none.

Rick Fox and Derek Fisher didnt have too bad of years when winning championships. And they were a part of a team that won 3 straight. Does that mean they are/were superstars? Horace Grant was a part of a team that won 3 straight titles, and had pretty good stats. Does that mean he was a superstar? If you answer yes to any of those, then you are a total moron.

Parker is having a good year, but not a GREAT year. his FG% is very nice. to be so high in points in the paint for a guard is nice, but how is it that he is getting inside so much? id say a LARGE part of that is Duncan boxing out, drawing double teams, etc... sure, he finishes as well as anyone in the league, but he doesnt create everything for himself. duncan creates a lot of his open lanes and opportunities.

other than a high FG%, there is not much to brag about. 19 ppg isn't bad. 23% on 3's? sure, he rarely shoots them, but he shot 2 a game last year, and was still only 27%. 68% on FT's? even Shaq was able to get into the 60% range on freethrows before. less than a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio? 1 steal a game is pretty average. none of those are even CLOSE to being "superstar" numbers.

[pache100]

Danny Ainge ? are you serious ? Ever?

Yes. If I hadn't been serious, I wouldn't have said it.

[Chris]

Add Mike James to the underrated list. Dude's a baller...

Someone mentioned something about who is the dirtiest Pistons fan. Richard Hamilton hands down takes the cake. Guy gets away with murder on offense.

As mentioned earlier Karl Malone is the king of dirty players and I've yet to seen anyone come close to dethroning him.

[Supergirl]

NEVER gotten a flagrant foul? i would LOVE for you to show me proof of that. that is VERY hard to believe. i cant recall 100%, but they may have given him a flagrant-1 after elbowing finley. i think the league reviewed it, and added a flagrant-1, along with a fine. i could be wrong, but im still gunna say that to say he NEVER has gotten a flagrant foul is bullshit.

I'd be very surprised if Bowen has ever gotten a flagrant - in my recollection, none of the Spurs have gotten one. Tim contested his first technical (or was it a flagrant) a couple years ago, and they withdrew it.

I don't know how I can prove this.

[Trifecta]

I agree that the SPURS need to toughen up in the interior -- they are soft :angel .

When opposing players hit the ground, we are always there to extend a helping hand to pick them up -- commit a hard, clean foul and just walk away!

Opposing teams love to attack the Spurs interior especially when Duncan is out of the game because they can count on the fact that they will score or draw a foul on Mohammed.

I realize our SPURS are class people and they are who they are, but I wish they would just save the pleasantries for after the game!

[stretchman21]

I'm not responding directly to you, but to the rampant cries from Mavericks fans that Ginobili and Parker are somehow "overrated." If they played in Dallas, I suspect you'd have a very different opinion of each of them.

I don't know that anyone can objectively call either one a superstar, but they're clearly among the difference makers at their positions and they've each improved tremendously while in the league. Words like superstar and great are thrown around far too often for my taste. But each is clearly a star -- players aren't named to the All-Star team by the coaches on some lark; surely you can't doubt that it's an earned accomplishment and players who reach that level are deemed by those inside the game to be among the best at their positions. The fastidious obsession among Mavericks fans with downplaying the accomplishments of Parker and Ginobili is rather odd.

In real terms, Manu may be closer to being a superstar -- or may be considered a superstar by some analysts -- because he's been the dominant player on a team that has excelled in international play while also becoming an NBA All-Star and a 2 time champion in 3 NBA seasons. Say what you will, but that is an impressive resume. I doubt that many players would consider him overrated, because while his numbers don't dazzle, his ability to change games is as pronounced as anyone's. Kobe has hinted at that and certainly coaches like George Karl, Mike D'Antoni, and Larry Brown are keenly aware of Manu's abilities. You don't see any of those guys saying that he's overrated.

Parker is 23. He's an all-star at 23. After the last few playoff runs, he's been reamed in the media and by fans for being the weakest of the Spurs Big 3. He's responded by elevating his game and made himself into a force that can win games with or without Tim Duncan. For the time being, he's the most consistently excellent player on the team with the third best record in basketball. I don't know that anyone is arguing for his entry into the Hall of Fame quite yet, but his recognition as an all-star is anything but a fluke. Give credit where credit is due -- NBA players apparently do.

i never said anything about him being an all-star. that is great, although i personally thought other players deserved the spot more than he did. i think Carmello was more deserving. if it werent for injury, i would say corey maggette deserved it more than him. so did Jason Richardson.

and of course no coach is going to say anything about being overrated. i dont see anyone saying that Yao Ming is overrated, even though he is OBVIOUSLY overrated. come on now. thats just called class. we can say that kind of stuff and get away with that. they cant.

im not sure who all these mavs fans are, that you talk about are saying Parker and Ginobili is overrated. many of them praise them very highly here in dallas. this is just my personal opinion. being a mavs fan has nothing to do with it. i have always thought that they overachieve because of Tim Duncan. therefore, i believe that they are overrated. that team is garbage without Tim Duncan. if i recall, they were 7-6 without Duncan last year, and several of those wins came against shitty teams like Toronto. so dont say that this team can win without Duncan. without Duncan, they are a 7th, maybe 8th seed team.

[stretchman21]

I'd be very surprised if Bowen has ever gotten a flagrant - in my recollection, none of the Spurs have gotten one. Tim contested his first technical (or was it a flagrant) a couple years ago, and they withdrew it.

I don't know how I can prove this.
well, your buddy said he got a flagrant from kicking wally in the face.

[Peter]

Didn't the Mavs have Fortson and Raja Bell on their team? Anyone recall Juwan Howard's clothesline of DA in 2001? That hurt the Spurs significantly in that postseason. How about when Bell threw that elbow in the playoffs?

Stop whining, Mav Fan. Did you cry when Jack and Kerr knocked you out of the '03 WCF? Man, that was sweet.

[stretchman21]

Add Mike James to the underrated list. Dude's a baller...

Someone mentioned something about who is the dirtiest Pistons fan. Richard Hamilton hands down takes the cake. Guy gets away with murder on offense.

As mentioned earlier Karl Malone is the king of dirty players and I've yet to seen anyone come close to dethroning him.
yea, Mike James is cold. houston was dumb for trading him.

[stretchman21]

Didn't the Mavs have Fortson and Raja Bell on their team? Anyone recall Juwan Howard's clothesline of DA in 2001? That hurt the Spurs significantly in that postseason. How about when Bell threw that elbow in the playoffs?

Stop whining, Mav Fan. Did you cry when Jack and Kerr knocked you out of the '03 WCF? Man, that was sweet.
yea, that "elbow" MISSED his face you moron. and to add to it, he got a technical for it. and what hurt the spurs was the Lakers. they owned their asses. YOU need to stop whining about a fucking elbow that happened in 2001, you douchebag. what was sweet was Derek Fisher hitting a shot with 0.4 seconds left to beat you guys. THAT was sweet.

[Peter]

yea, that "elbow" MISSED his face you moron. and to add to it, he got a technical for it.

So he's not a dirty player because it didn't connect? That's redneck dumb.




and what hurt the spurs was the Lakers. they owned their asses. YOU need to stop whining about a fucking elbow that happened in 2001, you douchebag. what was sweet was Derek Fisher hitting a shot with 0.4 seconds left to beat you guys. THAT was sweet.

The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).

You cannot possibly be this stupid.

[implacable44]

Malone is definitely the dirtiest STAR ever (there may have been worse, but not among major players). Denying that elbow-swingin' sh!t-for-head a ring was one of the sweetest elements of the '04 title.

Bowen's "dirty" play, to me, just looks like using every millimeter of slack he can get from the refs to maximize his effectiveness on D, and it's REAL hard to argue with the results. Yeah, he'll get a little rough if the refs aren't looking, but when they draw the line, he just works with it.

As for the "dirtiest" Piston...I gotta say Rip won't hesitate to grab and hold on D if he can get away with it. Doesn't seem to have Bowen's sense for when the refs are looking and when they're not, though.

the dirtiest star ever - actually after reflecting on this topic - I give the nod as dirtiest to Shaq.

[island_dude]

Being a contributor to championship team doesn't deem someone a superstar. Duncan is the only player I would give that status to on the Spurs team, but who really cares if you're collecting rings.

The Pistons won a championship with no one consider a super star. It's nice to have at least one, but it's all about team play.

[stretchman21]

So he's not a dirty player because it didn't connect? That's redneck dumb.




The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).

You cannot possibly be this stupid.
ok, so if someone throws one elbow, that instantly makes them a dirty player??? wow, Bowen must be a fuckin mudbucket then.

yea, of course you go to the "3 rings" arguement. because YOU cant debate. the fact is, the Lakers OWNED the spurs when they went on their three-peat. and the spurs were just fortunate to beat the lakers in 02-03. then they again got owned in 03-04.

next...

[stretchman21]

Being a contributor to championship team doesn't deem someone a superstar. Duncan is the only player I would give that status to on the Spurs team, but who really cares if you're collecting rings.

The Pistons won a championship with no one consider a super star. It's nice to have at least one, but it's all about team play.
finally... someone with a brain.

[Dunc]

So he's not a dirty player because it didn't connect? That's redneck dumb.




The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).


:lmao

[island_dude]

The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).

Yeah, we all know the Spurs have 3 and the Mavs have none. Let's wait and see what unfolds this season.

As far as your comment about Cuban, sounds like you know that from personal experience, or is that just some fantasy of yours?

[Dunc]

the dirtiest star ever - actually after reflecting on this topic - I give the nod as dirtiest to Shaq.

Yeah, I'm definitely with you on that, actually. Ever wonder if Shaq would have even made the NBA if he was, say, 6'9 and 240?

[implacable44]

finally... someone with a brain.

WHo cares ? - The MAvs don't even have 1 true superstar. I mean I guess you can call Dirk a superstar the same way that KG is a superstar -- but other than that who do you have ? Remember this my man - the Spurs are what the Mavs want to be. They copy the Spurs in every way.

[implacable44]

Yeah, I'm definitely with you on that, actually. Ever wonder if Shaq would have even made the NBA if he was, say, 6'9 and 240?


I wonder how he doesn't foul out of every game he plays in.

[Peter]

Man, he's a glutton for punishment.


ok, so if someone throws one elbow, that instantly makes them a dirty player??? wow, Bowen must be a fuckin mudbucket then.


Sure, when it's aimed right at someone's dome. Bell's got a rep for being a dirty player.




yea, of course you go to the "3 rings" arguement.

OK, he's drifting back to sanity.




because YOU cant debate. the fact is, the Lakers OWNED the spurs when they went on their three-peat. and the spurs were just fortunate to beat the lakers in 02-03. then they again got owned in 03-04.

next...

Aren't you a Mavs fan? I can debate plenty. The Spurs have dropped your Mavs out of the postseason every time they faced them. There is no parallel. The Spurs have 3 rings from their postseason appearances. All you have is to nutride on another team because your favorite team is so pathetic.

[Chris]

So he's not a dirty player because it didn't connect? That's redneck dumb.




The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).




Yeah thats easily the post of the week.

[Peter]

The problem for you is, the Spurs actually have beat them in a postseason. Oh yeah, and they have 3 rings. How many do the Mavs have? (That's not counting Cuban's clit ring).

Yeah, we all know the Spurs have 3 and the Mavs have none. Let's wait and see what unfolds this season.


Ah, "wait and see". The life of the ringless.




As far as your comment about Cuban, sounds like you know that from personal experience, or is that just some fantasy of yours?

Judging by his behavior it seems like a distinct possibility.

[island_dude]

WHo cares ? - The MAvs don't even have 1 true superstar. I mean I guess you can call Dirk a superstar the same way that KG is a superstar -- but other than that who do you have ? Remember this my man - the Spurs are what the Mavs want to be. They copy the Spurs in every way.
Who cares whether Dirk is a superstar or not. Like I said the Pistons proved you don't have to have a team loaded with superstars to win a title. In fact having too many ona team can be detrimental to team chemistry. Dallas learned that the hard way a couple of years ago, and Miami is learning it now.

I'll give the Spurs credit for surrounding Timmy with very good role players, but it's not like they have the patent on what they do. Also just because the Mavs are stressing defense more doesn't mean they're trying to be a clone of the Spurs. I know the Spurs are capable of being uptempo when needed, but they're still primarily a halfcourt offense, while the Mavs play more halfcourt than they use to, but still look for the uptempo game more so than the Spurs.

[leemajors]

Who cares whether Dirk is a superstar or not. Like I said the Pistons proved you don't have to have a team loaded with superstars to win a title. In fact having too many ona team can be detrimental to team chemistry. Dallas learned that the hard way a couple of years ago, and Miami is learning it now.

I'll give the Spurs credit for surrounding Timmy with very good role players, but it's not like they have the patent on what they do. Also just because the Mavs are stressing defense more doesn't mean they're trying to be a clone of the Spurs. I know the Spurs are capable of being uptempo when needed, but they're still primarily a halfcourt offense, while the Mavs play more halfcourt than they use to, but still look for the uptempo game more so than the Spurs.

where did the little general earn his stripes again?

[implacable44]

The thing is with Parker the Spurs half court set is just as up-tempo as the Mavs running - The Spurs can play with you however you want to play. If you want to run then Finley, parker and manu can run all day -- you want to slow it down and they can score in their half-court sets. I know it is hard to be a Mavs fan dude - I know - I live up here and listen to this garbage sports talk apologist radio. I know how frustrating it is to lose and lose and lose in the playoffs every year. I hear the pain - it is hard to root for a good team that can't win it all -every year faced with disappointment. The mavs are a lot like the Jazz of the 90's -- good team - win lots of games every year and then fall on their face in the playoffs. You have no answer for TD and until you do -- You will keep losing and venting your frustrations with comments like " wait until next year" or "lets see what happens this year". When what you really mean is " why cant we beat those damn spurs.

[Kori Ellis]

Sweet.. This poll just proves that Bowen is in his opponent's heads.

Mission Accomplished.

[WalterBenitez]

Who cares whether Dirk is a superstar or not. Like I said the Pistons proved you don't have to have a team loaded with superstars to win a title. In fact having too many ona team can be detrimental to team chemistry.

SuperStar + NO Chemistry = TWolves :lol

SuperStar + Chemistry = SPURS :elephant

No Supertars + Chemistry = Pistons :angel

[implacable44]

Sweet.. This poll just proves that Bowen is in his opponent's heads.

Mission Accomplished.

well except for lebron

[Kori Ellis]

well except for lebron

Bowen will never be able to guard LeBron well. Bowen can guard people taller than him that are lean, or regular sized, quick perimeter players. But he's not going to be able to guard a guy with LeBron's body style.

[pache100]

well except for lebron

If Lebron's complaining, he's in Lebron's head, too. He may not be as effective against Lebron as he is against some others, but Lebron thinks about it and probably dreads it. If he didn't he wouldn't have commented.

[Supergirl]

Bowen will never be able to guard LeBron well. Bowen can guard people taller than him that are lean, or regular sized, quick perimeter players. But he's not going to be able to guard a guy with LeBron's body style.

Interesting. I haven't seen enough of Lebron to know what body type his falls into? Is it that he is extremely muscular?


Re: Shaq. I think he is the most UN-dirty player ever. Esp for a guy of his size, who gets grabbed and hacked CONSTANTLY. He may bump people, and when a guy who's 7' and 300 lbs "bumps" you, it's gonna hurt a little, but I've rarely see him lose his cool or do anything illegal. The same could be said for Duncan or Robinson, but I think Shaq takes a little more of a beating in the paint than those guys, though I think Duncan is catching up to them.

[implacable44]

when did lebron comment ? and just because you say someone is dirty doesnt mean you are in their head and I think the only one dreading a repeat match-up would be Bowen after he got lit up for 44 and spent his 31 minutes on the floor looking at lebrons backside.

[island_dude]

where did the little general earn his stripes again?
Yeah, Avery did get a ring playing for the Spurs, but he learned from more than just Pop. He also gained alot from playing for and coaching with Nellie. Do you also forget that Pop was one time Nellie's assistant as well. Now I'm not saying I agreed with Nellie's philosophy 100%, but the guy did have some influence on Avery as well. Avery did gain alot from his experience with the Spurs, but he had other influences as well, so that doesn't mean he's a clone of Pop.

[jochhejaam]

he is extremely muscular?


Re: Shaq. I think he is the most UN-dirty player ever. Esp for a guy of his size, who gets grabbed and hacked CONSTANTLY. He may bump people, and when a guy who's 7' and 300 lbs "bumps" you, it's gonna hurt a little, but I've rarely see him lose his cool or do anything illegal.
I agree, I don't think of Shaq as dirty but it seems as if the NBA allows him to play football on a basketball court.

[Kori Ellis]

LeBron is a little taller than Bowen but that's not the problem. He outweighs Bowen by 45 pounds, plus obviously he's extremely athletic. It's not a good matchup for Bowen.

[implacable44]

Interesting. I haven't seen enough of Lebron to know what body type his falls into? Is it that he is extremely muscular?


Re: Shaq. I think he is the most UN-dirty player ever. Esp for a guy of his size, who gets grabbed and hacked CONSTANTLY. He may bump people, and when a guy who's 7' and 300 lbs "bumps" you, it's gonna hurt a little, but I've rarely see him lose his cool or do anything illegal. The same could be said for Duncan or Robinson, but I think Shaq takes a little more of a beating in the paint than those guys, though I think Duncan is catching up to them.


what game are you watching ? I have seen shaq play since he was a junior at cole and i was a soph at judson - played with and against him and he has been the same since - he commits at least 5 offensive fouls a game. Granted he does get pushed but when 380 is leaning on you -- you have to push him back or else you fall over. - he hasn't done anything dirty ? - without rehashing the past - focus on what he did to Andrew Bynum this year when they played the Lakers -

[Kori Ellis]

when did lebron comment ? and just because you say someone is dirty doesnt mean you are in their head and I think the only one dreading a repeat match-up would be Bowen after he got lit up for 44 and spent his 31 minutes on the floor looking at lebrons backside.

LeBron didn't comment. And I don't think Bowen is in his head. He just regards Bowen as a pesky defender.

The guys who bitch that Bowen is dirty like Ray Allen, Vince Carter, etc. Bowen is definitely in their heads.

[cheguevara]

Re: Shaq. I think he is the most UN-dirty player ever. Esp for a guy of his size, who gets grabbed and hacked CONSTANTLY. He may bump people, and when a guy who's 7' and 300 lbs "bumps" you, it's gonna hurt a little, but I've rarely see him lose his cool or do anything illegal. The same could be said for Duncan or Robinson, but I think Shaq takes a little more of a beating in the paint than those guys, though I think Duncan is catching up to them.

I guess u never seen shaq throw his signature elbow to the chest/face of defenders.

[FromWayDowntown]

Avery did gain alot from his experience with the Spurs, but he had other influences as well, so that doesn't mean he's a clone of Pop.

Curiously, though, he seems hellbent on undoing what Nellie did in Dallas and implementing what Pop has done in San Antonio.

I'd say that for now, the Pop influence > Nellie influence.

And for whomever was suggesting that the Mavericks play at a higher tempo than the Spurs, the numbers prove you wrong. John Hollinger's pace number says that the Spurs use marginally more possessions per game than the Mavericks do, so unless the Mavericks are playing some 40 minute games, the numbers say that they don't play at a faster pace than the Spurs.

Finally, who exactly are all of these people suggesting that Manu and Tony are superstars. They're All-Stars, that makes them stars. If you think that their being all-stars means they're overrated, then you really must have issues with disrespect. Tony and Manu are vital cogs to a team that has won 2 of 3 titles and may very well play for a 3rd title this summer. How, exactly, are they overrated?

[ducks]

bowen kepted james in check 4 straight games
bowen 4 james 2

[implacable44]

LeBron didn't comment. And I don't think Bowen is in his head. He just regards Bowen as a pesky defender.

The guys who bitch that Bowen is dirty like Ray Allen, Vince Carter, etc. Bowen is definitely in their heads.


i could see how he would be -- he is physical and those are purely finesse guys

[DarkReign]

LeBron is a little taller than Bowen but that's not the problem. He outweighs Bowen by 45 pounds, plus obviously he's extremely athletic. It's not a good matchup for Bowen.

LeBron isnt a good matchup for anyone.

Sickest part? Hes 21 (maybe 22). Thats sick.

[implacable44]

bowen kepted james in check 4 straight games
bowen 4 james 2


Kept him in check ? - meaning in his rookie year ?

[Kori Ellis]

Someone on the Sonics said that they hate when the Spurs play the Sonics because Ray gets so rattled by Bowen that he has tunnel vision -- and he doesn't see his teammates or the basket :lmao

[Kori Ellis]

LeBron isnt a good matchup for anyone.

Sickest part? Hes 21 (maybe 22). Thats sick.

True. I guess my point was that someone like Artest (who is closer in body style to LeBron) could guard him better than someone like Bowen.

[ambchang]

I would much rather have a soft-pansy for my primary perimeter defender. I would also take the opinions of a fake Wolves fan over rings any day of the week.

[ducks]

bowen had held james to 81 points in 4 games

that is pretty good tell last game
the first game james lit up bowen
the last game james got the better of him

they played 6 times so far

[ducks]

LeBron isnt a good matchup for anyone.

Sickest part? Hes 21 (maybe 22). Thats sick.


sickest part is his big head

[implacable44]

Like I said - dude was a rookie - then the first match-up this year - which was the Cavs 2nd game of the season and they were attempting to incorporate Hughes and Damon Jones in the offense - I think James only shot 16 times or something and Lebron can get his shot off whenever he wants against anyone. IF he takes 16 shots it is by choice.

[island_dude]

I don't really think of Shaq in terms of dirty, but he's such a load it makes him a man amongst boys so to speak. Yeah, he's capable of it, but not in the Karl Malone sense.

I also think Shaq exercises a great deal of patience for someone who constantly get hacked. I've very rarely ever seen the dude lose his cool.

[island_dude]

Curiously, though, he seems hellbent on undoing what Nellie did in Dallas and implementing what Pop has done in San Antonio.

I'd say that for now, the Pop influence > Nellie influence.

And for whomever was suggesting that the Mavericks play at a higher tempo than the Spurs, the numbers prove you wrong. John Hollinger's pace number says that the Spurs use marginally more possessions per game than the Mavericks do, so unless the Mavericks are playing some 40 minute games, the numbers say that they don't play at a faster pace than the Spurs.

Finally, who exactly are all of these people suggesting that Manu and Tony are superstars. They're All-Stars, that makes them stars. If you think that their being all-stars means they're overrated, then you really must have issues with disrespect. Tony and Manu are vital cogs to a team that has won 2 of 3 titles and may very well play for a 3rd title this summer. How, exactly, are they overrated?
All I can tell you is that Avery said himself that they're not trying to become SA north. I could probably find the quote if you want. There isn't any doubt that Pop has had a huge influence, but like I said the Spurs aren't the only team to show how defense is essential to winning a championship. I'd say Phil Jackson's Bulls, and Lakers championship teams stressed defense , as well as the Pistons, so I guess that means the Spurs copied those teams?

Again the Mavs under Nellie were a run and gun team, but it's been proven you can't win in the playoffs like that in the modern era. Avery has changed that pretty drastically, but I still don't think you can say he's just copying the Spurs.

I'm not the one who was saying that Parker and Gino weren't important to the spurs success. I believe they're deserving allstars, but not superstars. I'm not sure who even started that debate. I think Parker is very underrated personally, but I also think Gino is overrated at times by the media because of his atheleticism. Though he's very talented I still think he's very erratic at times.

[Kori Ellis]

I believe they're deserving allstars, but not superstars

I always hate that debate because though there's a definition for All-Stars (those who make the All-Star team) there's no definition of superstars.

For me (for example) I think there's only a handful of superstars in the league -- so I would never say that Tony/Manu are superstars. But to some people superstars is relatively equivalent to All-Stars. So it's a weird debate to me when I see it on message boards.

[WalterBenitez]

Someone answers me that a SuperStar is a player who you can build a team around ... The rest are Stars or role players

[FromWayDowntown]

I always hate that debate because though there's a definition for All-Stars (those who make the All-Star team) there's no definition of superstars.

For me (for example) I think there's only a handful of superstars in the league -- so I would never say that Tony/Manu are superstars. But to some people superstars is relatively equivalent to All-Stars. So it's a weird debate to me when I see it on message boards.

I would agree that superstar is thrown around too lightly in the media. But I guess the point of my quarrel here is this: I hear from Mavericks fans that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are "overrated." I don't hear media often referring to either as a "superstar," but often as "stars." Each has earned an All-Star selection. What on Earth about calling them stars, but not superstars, is overrating them?

[island_dude]

Ah, "wait and see". The life of the ringless.
Well, like Avery says, 'Were still a work in progress."



Judging by his behavior it seems like a distinct possibility.
Just seemed a tad bit gay to be saying that about a man. 'Not that there's anything wrong with that."

[MajicMan]

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7940/bowen13pa.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6121/bowen25gi.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6026/bowen37ac.jpg
http://www.segaforums.com/uploads/post-3-1078497411.gif

[tlongII]

Bruce Bowen sucks ass.

[zero signal]

I found the Miami pic.

"FINISH HIM"


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/440/bowensonics9fe.jpg

Flawless Victory.

[Peter]

Just seemed a tad bit gay to be saying that about a man. 'Not that there's anything wrong with that."


It must be tough having to defend that homo of an owner. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[nkdlunch]

Bruce Bowen sucks ass.

but before sucking it he kicks the shit out of it :lol

[nkdlunch]

I found the Miami pic.

"FINISH HIM"


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/440/bowensonics9fe.jpg

Flawless Victory.

:lol

[Chris]

omg zero signal thats hilarious!

[stretchman21]

WHo cares ? - The MAvs don't even have 1 true superstar. I mean I guess you can call Dirk a superstar the same way that KG is a superstar -- but other than that who do you have ? Remember this my man - the Spurs are what the Mavs want to be. They copy the Spurs in every way.
well, the pistons didnt have any superstars, and beat a lineup with 4 hall of famers. so your thoughts are kinda useless.

[island_dude]

It must be tough having to defend that homo of an owner. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
You seem a bit defensive there. Are you homophobic or something? I could personally care less whether Cuban's a flamer or not.

[stretchman21]

Man, he's a glutton for punishment.



Sure, when it's aimed right at someone's dome. Bell's got a rep for being a dirty player.




OK, he's drifting back to sanity.




Aren't you a Mavs fan? I can debate plenty. The Spurs have dropped your Mavs out of the postseason every time they faced them. There is no parallel. The Spurs have 3 rings from their postseason appearances. All you have is to nutride on another team because your favorite team is so pathetic.
ok, and what the hell does that have to do with bowen even being a dirty player??? that goes exactly with what i was saying... you cant debate. instead, you dwell on the past, which obviously shows the spurs winning and the mavs not. but that has NOTHING to do with Bowen. quit changing the subject you douchebag.

also, the fact is, he NEVER HIT Parker. there is a BIG line between missing and hitting. second of all, it wasnt even an elbow. he swung the BALL you MORON. there again, is a BIG difference between a ball and an elbow.

next...

[FromWayDowntown]

also, the fact is, he NEVER HIT Parker. there is a BIG line between missing and hitting. second of all, it wasnt even an elbow. he swung the BALL you MORON. there again, is a BIG difference between a ball and an elbow.

next...

If he swings with the intent to make contact, the fact that he didn't make contact only changes the extent of the injury -- it doesn't change the fact of his intent. There's a big difference between hitting and missing, but only to the person who is the target.

[Sportman]

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/440/bowensonics9fe.jpg


Well i have the same picture because the guy who is receiving this kick plays for the argentinian national team, he is ruben wolkowisky :lol :lol .......if manu could look at this picture he couldnt maybe help laughing :lol

[stretchman21]

If he swings with the intent to make contact, the fact that he didn't make contact only changes the extent of the injury -- it doesn't change the fact of his intent. There's a big difference between hitting and missing, but only to the person who is the target.
ok, well how do we know it was intended for him to hit parker? with all the "reasoning" on bowen's "intent" for hitting finley, kicking wally in the face, etc... i would think its only fair to "assume" the best of bell. if you all are going to say that bell is known as a dirty player, then Bowen is at known for being at least TWICE as dirty.

[Peter]

ok, and what the hell does that have to do with bowen even being a dirty player??? that goes exactly with what i was saying...

The point is that Mav Fan should stop lecturing Spurs fans about Bowen's dirty play considering the Mavs' history.



you cant debate. instead, you dwell on the past, which obviously shows the spurs winning and the mavs not. but that has NOTHING to do with Bowen. quit changing the subject you douchebag.

Funny, you rely on the past for your drivel.




also, the fact is, he NEVER HIT Parker. there is a BIG line between missing and hitting. second of all, it wasnt even an elbow. he swung the BALL you MORON. there again, is a BIG difference between a ball and an elbow.

next...

:lol Yeah, he swung the ball and his elbows led. Again, it doesn't matter if contact was made to make that a dirty play.

Mav Fan is that stupid, apparently.

[Peter]

ok, well how do we know it was intended for him to hit parker? with all the "reasoning" on bowen's "intent" for hitting finley, kicking wally in the face, etc... i would think its only fair to "assume" the best of bell. if you all are going to say that bell is known as a dirty player, then Bowen is at known for being at least TWICE as dirty.

You can make a dirty play while not making contact and you can make accidental contact while playing cleanly. Swinging elbows at head level with a player in front of you is a dirty play.

[Solid D]

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/bowen_bnb_060110.jpg

Dirty player Bruce Bowen, just before he was caught tripping two children en route to winning a footrace.

[FromWayDowntown]

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/bowen_bnb_060110.jpg

Dirty player Bruce Bowen, just before he was caught tripping two children en route to winning a footrace.

:lol

[implacable44]

well, the pistons didnt have any superstars, and beat a lineup with 4 hall of famers. so your thoughts are kinda useless.

what thought was that ? i dont recall saying you needed any superstars -- i am saying the mavs dont really have one -- i never said anything about playing with all superstars -- you are stupid as those clowns on the ticket -- are you a p1?

the pistons have 4 all stars - should be 5.

[stretchman21]

The point is that Mav Fan should stop lecturing Spurs fans about Bowen's dirty play considering the Mavs' history.




Funny, you rely on the past for your drivel.




:lol Yeah, he swung the ball and his elbows led. Again, it doesn't matter if contact was made to make that a dirty play.

Mav Fan is that stupid, apparently.
you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. your points make NO sense. if you are gunna debate, make it good, and worth my time. not just saying brainless garbage that makes no sense. if you are just gunna use the arguement "the spurs have 3 rings" as your answer for everything, then dont bother attempting to debate with me.

if you are going to say that swinging the ball is a dirty play, but kicking someone in the face is clean, then you are a total fucking moron.

[stretchman21]

You can make a dirty play while not making contact and you can make accidental contact while playing cleanly. Swinging elbows at head level with a player in front of you is a dirty play.
right. bowen could have moved his foot away. bowen didnt have to throw an elbow, whether it was retaliation or not. if you are making movement that could cause serious physical damage to another person, and it is EASILY avoidable, yet you do it anyway, that is a dirty play.

next...

[stretchman21]

what thought was that ? i dont recall saying you needed any superstars -- i am saying the mavs dont really have one -- i never said anything about playing with all superstars -- you are stupid as those clowns on the ticket -- are you a p1?

the pistons have 4 all stars - should be 5.

ok... then WHAT THE FUCK WAS YOUR POINT??? you said the mavs have no superstars, and the spurs do. the mavs are trying to be what the spurs are... in other words, you are saying that the mavs need a "superstar" to win... are you not? if not, then why would the mavs want to be like the spurs? think before you make dumb comments like that.

that piston comment was again, dumb and misinformed. they had no all-stars that year other than Ben Wallace, only due to the lack of centers in the league these days. but we all know he cant do much on offense other than dunk, and offense is what gets you to the all-star game. the only other piston player that was even SLIGHTLY considered was Rip Hamilton.


hahaha. if you actually take The Ticket that seriously, then you are a really uptight, ignorant asshole. and im willing to go out on a limb and say that they know more about sports and basketball than you will ever imagine knowing. they arent homers either, so im not sure what your point was there again... oh, and Gordo rules.

[implacable44]

ok... then WHAT THE FUCK WAS YOUR POINT??? you said the mavs have no superstars, and the spurs do. the mavs are trying to be what the spurs are... in other words, you are saying that the mavs need a "superstar" to win... are you not? if not, then why would the mavs want to be like the spurs? think before you make dumb comments like that.


hahaha. if you actually take The Ticket that seriously, then you are a really uptight, ignorant asshole. and im willing to go out on a limb and say that they know more about sports and basketball than you will ever imagine knowing. they arent homers either, so im not sure what your point was there again... oh, and Gordo rules.


dude you have got to get out more - maybe get laid once in a while- apparently beating your meat doesnt cut it for you. still too uptight - but i understand -- a frustrated mavs fan --- try not to let it carry over to other aspects of your life. -- the mavs are trying to make dirk a superstar and surrounding him with complimentary players -- just like the spurs - they preach team defense now -- just like the spurs -- but they will not be able to beat the spurs in a 7 game series because the focal point of their attack is still on the perimeter and they aint got nobody named jordan....

[George W Bush]

Mission Accomplished.

I'll say. :tu

[sickdsm]

I think the homers need to remember Bowen's reputation and status as the most dirty player in the NBA when they throw that drivel out there as a classy bunch.

5 Drobs wouldn't make up for one Artest and Bowen is undeniably WORSE.

That's not an opinion from me, Jim Rome, or Buddy Hackett.

People that go to work every day with him.

Sure, what he does is great, if he's on your team and gets away with it. Same can be said for Tonya Harding, and crazed cheerleading killer mom too. Sucks for Nancy Kerrigan and dead 16 yr old girl though.

Fact is fact.

Kori i'm especially ashamed of you. As a reporter you don't have to open minded when its personal time but you should at least be able to think neutrally and you know damn well that the spurs own there rings thanks to the whistle. If Bowen doesn't get away with what he does he doen'st even start, end of story.

[stretchman21]

dude you have got to get out more - maybe get laid once in a while- apparently beating your meat doesnt cut it for you. still too uptight - but i understand -- a frustrated mavs fan --- try not to let it carry over to other aspects of your life. -- the mavs are trying to make dirk a superstar and surrounding him with complimentary players -- just like the spurs - they preach team defense now -- just like the spurs -- but they will not be able to beat the spurs in a 7 game series because the focal point of their attack is still on the perimeter and they aint got nobody named jordan....
lame insults... dont waste my time with lame ass insuluts like that. if you are going to insult, either make them...

A- Insulting
B- Funny
C (and most preferrably...)- Both

btw... to say that teams trying to get a superstar, building around him, and coaching defense is copying the spurs is again... fucking dumb. ALL CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE DONE THAT YOU MORON. im not frustrated at all. im just amazed how fuckin dumb and lame people can get. and you have just amazed me to another level. you really need to get your balls out of Tony Parker and Co.'s mouths.

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

...and you know damn well that the spurs own there rings thanks to the whistle. If Bowen doesn't get away with what he does he doen'st even start, end of story.

You cant honestly believe that any of the Spurs championships are by virtue of the officials. Quit your fucking crying, we play as a team, we play defense, and our superstar doesnt choke at the end of every game, regular or playoffs.

[stretchman21]

I think the homers need to remember Bowen's reputation and status as the most dirty player in the NBA when they throw that drivel out there as a classy bunch.

5 Drobs wouldn't make up for one Artest and Bowen is undeniably WORSE.

That's not an opinion from me, Jim Rome, or Buddy Hackett.

People that go to work every day with him.

Sure, what he does is great, if he's on your team and gets away with it. Same can be said for Tonya Harding, and crazed cheerleading killer mom too. Sucks for Nancy Kerrigan and dead 16 yr old girl though.

Fact is fact.

Kori i'm especially ashamed of you. As a reporter you don't have to open minded when its personal time but you should at least be able to think neutrally and you know damn well that the spurs own there rings thanks to the whistle. If Bowen doesn't get away with what he does he doen'st even start, end of story.
seriously... even though i happen to be a mavs fan, the spurs are babied by the league like crazy. although i dont agree that they got rings because of that, they do get away with more than enough. but then again, all championship teams do. and only a homer would say that Bowen is not dirty. im a mavs fan, and i admit that the spurs have kicked our asses for the most part the last few years. i admit that dirk is a soft defender. i admit that our toughest guy on our team is our coach. however, i still think that these pieces fit so well together, that this team can contend. and just about anyone who knows a damn about basketball agrees. the spurs are still the favorite, no doubt, but they can be beaten. so many (not all) of these spurs fans just act as if the spurs are invincible, just because they have won a few titles, one of which they struggled to win. another... well im not going to comment on that. people can believe what they want to believe, and while they probably were still the best team in 99, i still cant say that they deserve full credit for that title, since endurance is one of this biggest ways to distinguish a true champion, and not many teams obviously had to prove their endurance. but i usually dont bring it up, because most spurs fans i know get so defensive about it, that they practically want to kill anyone who discredits that year even the slightest bit.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I think the homers need to remember Bowen's reputation and status as the most dirty player in the NBA when they throw that drivel out there as a classy bunch.

5 Drobs wouldn't make up for one Artest and Bowen is undeniably WORSE.

That's not an opinion from me, Jim Rome, or Buddy Hackett.

People that go to work every day with him.

Sure, what he does is great, if he's on your team and gets away with it. Same can be said for Tonya Harding, and crazed cheerleading killer mom too. Sucks for Nancy Kerrigan and dead 16 yr old girl though.

Fact is fact.

Kori i'm especially ashamed of you. As a reporter you don't have to open minded when its personal time but you should at least be able to think neutrally and you know damn well that the spurs own there rings thanks to the whistle. If Bowen doesn't get away with what he does he doen'st even start, end of story.
Holy shit! :lol :lol :lol

[Solid D]

Such a take can only come from a T-Wolves loving, sick delusional spurious mind

[T Park]

I halfway looked through this, and couldn't believe the amount of Bullshit.


Bruce Bowen is dirty!?!?


What does he do thats "dirty" please.....

[polandprzem]

Well i have the same picture because the guy who is receiving this kick plays for the argentinian national team, he is ruben wolkowisky :lol :lol .......if manu could look at this picture he couldnt maybe help laughing :lol
And Wolkowisky has got some polish connection as I remamber correctly. :smokin

I don't know bout you but I realy heven't seen Bruce Bowen dirty. He is always clean. Well - in the games I've seen

[Kori Ellis]

Kori i'm especially ashamed of you. As a reporter you don't have to open minded when its personal time but you should at least be able to think neutrally and you know damn well that the spurs own there rings thanks to the whistle. If Bowen doesn't get away with what he does he doen'st even start, end of story.

Thanks for the laugh.

If Bowen is punching, spitting and hacking, why wouldn't they call it?

Stern/refs/NBA doesn't want the "small market" Spurs winning anything. So why would they ignore Bowen and hand the Spurs a championship?

Your theory sucks.

[smeagol]

sickdsm, I though you were better than this.

Your posts in this thread wolves009-ish.

[stretchman21]

I halfway looked through this, and couldn't believe the amount of Bullshit.


Bruce Bowen is dirty!?!?


What does he do thats "dirty" please.....
it means you are a homer.

[stretchman21]

"If Bowen is punching, spitting and hacking, why wouldn't they call it?"
the same reason they didnt call Michael Jordan for pushing off, John Stockton for stratching, Shaq for using his elbow to push, and Kobe for taking 5 extra steps every time he drives. they either dont see it, or are just ignorant.

[jochhejaam]

From a Hoophypes article last year.

Bruce Bowen played solid at both ends of the court. He has emerged from this postseason looking a whole lot better than his critics. I’ve seen nothing that would merit calling him a “dirty” player. Also, one of his critics, Ray Allen, has lost all credibility by his failure to condemn the vicious cheap shots his teammates directed at Ginobili. In the Finals, Richard Hamilton did his share of whining, but replays showed that, if anything, he did more grabbing, bumping and yapping than Bowen.

Rip's a quick study. :lol

http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/finals_hans3.htm

[FromWayDowntown]

I think now we're back to the point of all of this: fans of other teams coming in here and whining about the Spurs getting favorable treatment from the league and from officials. Aside from being disrespectful to what the Spurs have accomplished, it's just plain wrong. I understand that fans see it that way, but its equally homerism on that side to contend that the principle reason or a major reason or even a partial reason for the Spurs' successes has been officiating and some league-instituted vendetta to ensure that the Spurs win titles.

That whining manifests itself in all sorts of ways other than direct complaints about officiating -- calls that Bowen is dirty or that Parker and Manu are overrated would be among them -- but all of that is just a mask for the underlying frustration that stems from: (1) losing consistently to a team; and (2) refusing to give that team credit for its successes. The "I think the Spurs are the favorites, but . . . . " is a cop-out when that "but" has to do with anything other than the quality of an opponent. And, so far, in this thread, the "but" has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the excuse-making.

What really bugs me about it is that the complaint is inherently duplicitous. If or when Fan A's team wins a title, he'll find that the fans of a defeated foe will come around and complain about how dirty or overrated the players on Fan A's team are, or how jaundiced the officiating is in favor of Fan A's team. Then Fan A will be left to defend the mindless accusations of fans that won't give his team any credit or respect for its accomplishment.

The fact that the Pistons fans around here have, for the most part, avoided that and have accorded the same respect to the Spurs that we've accorded to the Pistons is, I think, part of the reason that so many of those Pistons fans have become valued posters and friends to many in this forum.

[T Park]

Very well said FWD, and agree 100%.

The Maverick fans sound like bitter, jealous little bitches quite frankly.

[FromWayDowntown]

The Maverick fans sound like bitter, jealous little bitches quite frankly.

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of Spurs fans sounded the same way to Lakers fans -- and Jazz fans.

[stretchman21]

I think now we're back to the point of all of this: fans of other teams coming in here and whining about the Spurs getting favorable treatment from the league and from officials. Aside from being disrespectful to what the Spurs have accomplished, it's just plain wrong. I understand that fans see it that way, but its equally homerism on that side to contend that the principle reason or a major reason or even a partial reason for the Spurs' successes has been officiating and some league-instituted vendetta to ensure that the Spurs win titles.

That whining manifests itself in all sorts of ways other than direct complaints about officiating -- calls that Bowen is dirty or that Parker and Manu are overrated would be among them -- but all of that is just a mask for the underlying frustration that stems from: (1) losing consistently to a team; and (2) refusing to give that team credit for its successes. The "I think the Spurs are the favorites, but . . . . " is a cop-out when that "but" has to do with anything other than the quality of an opponent. And, so far, in this thread, the "but" has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the excuse-making.

What really bugs me about it is that the complaint is inherently duplicitous. If or when Fan A's team wins a title, he'll find that the fans of a defeated foe will come around and complain about how dirty or overrated the players on Fan A's team are, or how jaundiced the officiating is in favor of Fan A's team. Then Fan A will be left to defend the mindless accusations of fans that won't give his team any credit or respect for its accomplishment.

The fact that the Pistons fans around here have, for the most part, avoided that and have accorded the same respect to the Spurs that we've accorded to the Pistons is, I think, part of the reason that so many of those Pistons fans have become valued posters and friends to many in this forum.
you know what though? if i am asked a question, i will answer it. i didnt come here just to start bashing the spurs. someone asked me about my thoughts on the spurs, and i said i personally think parker and ginobili are somewhat overrated at times. i was asked about Bowen, i personally think he is somewhat dirty. someone brought up about whether or not the spurs won because of poor officiating. i didnt agree with that one, but i do agree that they get away with a little bit more than other teams, which happens to be the case with ALL championship teams. so dont try and twist shit up like i just came in here exploding about the Spurs, because that is NOT true at all, and you KNOW it.

[stretchman21]

Very well said FWD, and agree 100%.

The Maverick fans sound like bitter, jealous little bitches quite frankly.
Well, quite frankly, we dont give a shit what you think about us. At least we havent been blaming losses on officiating, the way bitches like you do.

[SoCalSpursFan]

Bruce isn't the best he could be, he should have got #1.

If he is in the heads of that many players, more power to him.

Flagrant Fouls, Tech's, Personal Fouls...Does Bruce lead the league in any of these categories? Better yet, is he even close? Don't tell me the refs just "don't see it." They hear about it all the time, if there was a problem, they would see it/call it.

[FromWayDowntown]

you know what though? if i am asked a question, i will answer it. i didnt come here just to start bashing the spurs. someone asked me about my thoughts on the spurs, and i said i personally think parker and ginobili are somewhat overrated at times. i was asked about Bowen, i personally think he is somewhat dirty. someone brought up about whether or not the spurs won because of poor officiating. i didnt agree with that one, but i do agree that they get away with a little bit more than other teams, which happens to be the case with ALL championship teams. so dont try and twist shit up like i just came in here exploding about the Spurs, because that is NOT true at all, and you KNOW it.

You mistakenly assume that I'm somehow referring to you and only you. You have no problem generalizing about Spurs fans. I'm equally generalizing about fans of other teams (there are, of course, exceptions).

Your defensive response to my generalization, however, is interesting to me.

[stretchman21]

You mistakenly assume that I'm somehow referring to you and only you. You have no problem generalizing about Spurs fans. I'm equally generalizing about fans of other teams (there are, of course, exceptions).

Your defensive response to my generalization, however, is interesting to me.
again, you cannot read. i never made a generalization about spurs fans. show me where i made a generalization about spurs fans. otherwise, kindly shut the hell up.

[zeleni]

Well, quite frankly, we dont give a shit what you think about us. At least we havent been blaming losses on officiating, the way bitches like you do.


again, you cannot read. i never made a generalization about spurs fans. show me where i made a generalization about spurs fans. otherwise, kindly shut the hell up.

Explain yourself... I don't get you.

[5ToolMan]

Kept him in check ? - meaning in his rookie year ?

In the first matchup this year, Labron was 7/16 for 20 points and 3 TO's. I would certainly consider that Bowen keeping Labron in check. Especially considering the Spurs won in a landslide.

[ambchang]

"If Bowen is punching, spitting and hacking, why wouldn't they call it?"
the same reason they didnt call Michael Jordan for pushing off, John Stockton for stratching, Shaq for using his elbow to push, and Kobe for taking 5 extra steps every time he drives. they either dont see it, or are just ignorant.

Bowen is now at the superstar level of Jordan, Stockton, Shaq and Kobe? I didn't even know. Thanks for the news, it's great to have two superstars and two all-stars on our team.
Go Bruce Go!

[stretchman21]

Explain yourself... I don't get you.
i said "bitches like you". i never said "spurs fan". is that simple enough?

next...

[stretchman21]

Bowen is now at the superstar level of Jordan, Stockton, Shaq and Kobe? I didn't even know. Thanks for the news, it's great to have two superstars and two all-stars on our team.
Go Bruce Go!
where did i say anything about all-stars, or superstars? my point is, all good defenders get away with crap... especially when they play for good teams. ok, since i happened to use superstars as examples, how about this...
Derek Fisher getting away with his extreme flopping... Doug Christie and his crazy hacking... do you get the point now?
please, at least TRY to read before making retarded comments like that. it really makes you look... dumb.

[ambchang]

where did i say anything about all-stars, or superstars? my point is, all good defenders get away with crap... especially when they play for good teams. ok, since i happened to use superstars as examples, how about this...
Derek Fisher getting away with his extreme flopping... Doug Christie and his crazy hacking... do you get the point now?
please, at least TRY to read before making retarded comments like that. it really makes you look... dumb.
You mean little things such as Diop with his elbows, or Josh Howard with his constant slapping? Yeah, I believe I get the point. It's as long as you look really closely at every player, they get away with something.

[stretchman21]

You mean little things such as Diop with his elbows, or Josh Howard with his constant slapping? Yeah, I believe I get the point. It's as long as you look really closely at every player, they get away with something.
I couldn't agree with you more. So what exactly are you trying to point out?

[implacable44]

In the first matchup this year, Labron was 7/16 for 20 points and 3 TO's. I would certainly consider that Bowen keeping Labron in check. Especially considering the Spurs won in a landslide.


again - if he took 16 shots it was by choice and probably because he was trying to incorporate huges and damon jones into the offense -

[implacable44]

lame insults... dont waste my time with lame ass insuluts like that. if you are going to insult, either make them...

A- Insulting
B- Funny
C (and most preferrably...)- Both

btw... to say that teams trying to get a superstar, building around him, and coaching defense is copying the spurs is again... fucking dumb. ALL CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE DONE THAT YOU MORON. im not frustrated at all. im just amazed how fuckin dumb and lame people can get. and you have just amazed me to another level. you really need to get your balls out of Tony Parker and Co.'s mouths.


dude there is just something wrong with you -- frustrated - you are like tom cavanaugh -- dude can't keep a tv show on the air - can you imagine his frustration ? - I don't see him hurling four letter words and ignorant conversation around to try and accentuate his point of view. See that yellow brick road --- follow it to the wizard and get a brain. Stupid is the dude who cant see the lil general is there to make the mavs the spurs. -- Seems to me I always heard nellie junior was going to be taking over the reigns when don was forced out =-- but lo and behold all of those years of getting spanked by the spurs and that homosexual ( allegedly ) owner brought in a pop clone. GET A CLUE

[stretchman21]

dude there is just something wrong with you -- frustrated - you are like tom cavanaugh -- dude can't keep a tv show on the air - can you imagine his frustration ? - I don't see him hurling four letter words and ignorant conversation around to try and accentuate his point of view. See that yellow brick road --- follow it to the wizard and get a brain. Stupid is the dude who cant see the lil general is there to make the mavs the spurs. -- Seems to me I always heard nellie junior was going to be taking over the reigns when don was forced out =-- but lo and behold all of those years of getting spanked by the spurs and that homosexual ( allegedly ) owner brought in a pop clone. GET A CLUE

where did i ever say anything about avery NOT trying to make this team like the spurs? i just said that Avery is doing what ALL championship teams are supposed to do. play defense, have a solid, efficient offense, and make plays when they need them. and the spurs do that. but you are trying to make it sound like the spurs are the only team that has ever done that, and all teams are trying to be like them. well, you are wrong. all teams are trying to be a championship contender, which involves playing defense, having a solid efficient offense, and making big plays when needed. all teams that have ever won a title does that. so dont say that we are just trying to be like the spurs.

and not all my words are "four letter words". i can call you an "asshole". there, that is 7 letters. you are a "dumbass". another 7 letter word.

dont waste my time with any more dumbshit (ooh... 8 words there... you happy?) posts. talk basketball. KNOW what you are talking about. READ other peoples posts. THINK before you post. those are a few tips that can be quite helpful when trying to talk about basketball on a forum. oh yea, and if you are going to insult, make them insulting.

next...

[SequSpur]

What a waste of internet space.

[stretchman21]

What a waste of internet space.
i think its great. its funny how ONE mavs fan can just speak his mind (in this case, just give my opinion), and tons of spurs fans get incredibly defensive about it, as if my opinion will make any difference on the outcome of this season.

[ambchang]

I couldn't agree with you more. So what exactly are you trying to point out?
That you pointing out Bowen gets away with stuff on the court could be easily applied to anyone who ever played basketball if you look closely enough, which when you really think about it, nobody "got away" with extra things, since everybody does.

[ambchang]

i think its great. its funny how ONE mavs fan can just speak his mind (in this case, just give my opinion), and tons of spurs fans get incredibly defensive about it, as if my opinion will make any difference on the outcome of this season.
It's also funny how tons of Spurs fans just spoke their minds and a Mavs fan gets incredibly defensive about it.

[stretchman21]

That you pointing out Bowen gets away with stuff on the court could be easily applied to anyone who ever played basketball if you look closely enough, which when you really think about it, nobody "got away" with extra things, since everybody does.
ok... i kinda pointed that out when i was talking about Derek Fisher, Doug Christie, Kobe, MJ, etc...

next...

[stretchman21]

It's also funny how tons of Spurs fans just spoke their minds and a Mavs fan gets incredibly defensive about it.
oh really? prove it.

[SequSpur]

i think its great. its funny how ONE mavs fan can just speak his mind (in this case, just give my opinion), and tons of spurs fans get incredibly defensive about it, as if my opinion will make any difference on the outcome of this season.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, most fans are puppets and are easily strung along like bitches.

I mean, honestly, if I was a moderator here, I would've just banned your ass and never let you post again, because half the time you mavs fans are fuggin idiots.

It would be different if it was a Laker, Piston fan, etc... because they have some scoreboard in their history.

The only fucking thing the Mavs have won is a 3 point shootout.

Blow me.

[ambchang]

ok... i kinda pointed that out when i was talking about Derek Fisher, Doug Christie, Kobe, MJ, etc...

next...

Let me get this straight, how would

all good defenders get away with crap... especially when they play for good teams
be kinda the same as

That you pointing out Bowen gets away with stuff on the court could be easily applied to anyone who ever played basketball if you look closely enough, which when you really think about it, nobody "got away" with extra things, since everybody does?
I view it as quite the opposite, as in the first statement states that a select group of players get preferential treatment, while the next statement, which you "kinda pointed ... out" indicates nobody gets away with anything extra since everybody gets away with something.

[ambchang]

oh really? prove it.

ummm ... you posting more than anybody else in this thread?

[implacable44]

where did i ever say anything about avery NOT trying to make this team like the spurs? i just said that Avery is doing what ALL championship teams are supposed to do. play defense, have a solid, efficient offense, and make plays when they need them. and the spurs do that. but you are trying to make it sound like the spurs are the only team that has ever done that, and all teams are trying to be like them. well, you are wrong. all teams are trying to be a championship contender, which involves playing defense, having a solid efficient offense, and making big plays when needed. all teams that have ever won a title does that. so dont say that we are just trying to be like the spurs.

and not all my words are "four letter words". i can call you an "asshole". there, that is 7 letters. you are a "dumbass". another 7 letter word.

dont waste my time with any more dumbshit (ooh... 8 words there... you happy?) posts. talk basketball. KNOW what you are talking about. READ other peoples posts. THINK before you post. those are a few tips that can be quite helpful when trying to talk about basketball on a forum. oh yea, and if you are going to insult, make them insulting.

next...

hey stupid is in the mirror everyday when you wake up -

[stretchman21]

Let me get this straight, how would

be kinda the same as
?
I view it as quite the opposite, as in the first statement states that a select group of players get preferential treatment, while the next statement, which you "kinda pointed ... out" indicates nobody gets away with anything extra since everybody gets away with something.
how about this...

we both agree that most all players, especially big name players, and/or good defenders, have, and still do commit their share of fouls, tricks, etc... and the refs dont call it. that is what i was saying. can we agree on that?

[stretchman21]

ummm ... you posting more than anybody else in this thread?
yea, because i posted one thing, and 50 other people start bitching at me about MY OPINION. why does MY opinions matter so much to you all? my opinion is that Bowen can be a dirty player at times. hes a classy guy off the court, usually a classy guy on the court, but IMO, he plays dirty at times. i never said it was the truth. i said it was my opinion. simple as that.

[stretchman21]

hey stupid is in the mirror everyday when you wake up -
Wow... I ALMOST laughed. Now try and use some better grammatical skills.

[Sportman]

Dallas will need at least TWO BRUCES for winning a championship, but dallas dont have so they will wait for a while until getting a championship. Now i can get why dallas´s fans havent never had any joy, because they dont like this kind of players, who are usually the most important players for winning championships.

[ambchang]

how about this...

we both agree that most all players, especially big name players, and/or good defenders, have, and still do commit their share of fouls, tricks, etc... and the refs dont call it. that is what i was saying. can we agree on that?
I actually said everybody, not "especially big name players, and/or good defenders" get away with things on the court. Players carry the ball, they set moving screens, they take an extra step on a layup ... everybody does it. There is a big difference.
You imply a selected group of players get an advantage, I am saying everybody gets that advantage, which means nobody gets an advantage.

[ambchang]

yea, because i posted one thing, and 50 other people start bitching at me about MY OPINION. why does MY opinions matter so much to you all? my opinion is that Bowen can be a dirty player at times. hes a classy guy off the court, usually a classy guy on the court, but IMO, he plays dirty at times. i never said it was the truth. i said it was my opinion. simple as that.

So what is your problem about other people's opinion that Bowen is NOT a dirty player?
Frankly, I don't really care if he is a dirty player or not. All I care is that he is works hard and helps my favourite team win games and championships.

[stretchman21]

I actually said everybody, not "especially big name players, and/or good defenders" get away with things on the court. Players carry the ball, they set moving screens, they take an extra step on a layup ... everybody does it. There is a big difference.
You imply a selected group of players get an advantage, I am saying everybody gets that advantage, which means nobody gets an advantage.
sure, everybody does it. but would you not agree that big name players get away with it more? if you say no, you either don't watch basketball, or you are a liar.

[stretchman21]

So what is your problem about other people's opinion that Bowen is NOT a dirty player?
Frankly, I don't really care if he is a dirty player or not. All I care is that he is works hard and helps my favourite team win games and championships.
i never had any problem with others saying hes not a dirty player. i have my opinion, you all have yours. but i agree that he is a hard worker, and helps your team win championships. without him, they would not have been able to win their last two. he is a BIG part of the spurs. he is like what Adrian Griffin is to the Mavs. a hard worker, great defender, great team player, and while they dont score much, they score efficiently, which is most important. Bowen is a hell of a player. i just think sometimes he has done some dirty stuff.

[ambchang]

sure, everybody does it. but would you not agree that big name players get away with it more? if you say no, you either don't watch basketball, or you are a liar.
they get away with it more because they are on the court more and do more things, thus getting away with it more. But percentage-wise, there is little, if any difference. Perhaps when you assert anything like this, you would like to "prove it" like you would ask others to.
Karl Malone, dirty and a big name, got hit with techs and flagrants throughout his career, I don't see Bowen getting too many of those, despite his reputation is a hard-nose defender. Also, I would never consider Bowen to be a big name player.

i never had any problem with others saying hes not a dirty player. i have my opinion, you all have yours. but i agree that he is a hard worker, and helps your team win championships. without him, they would not have been able to win their last two. he is a BIG part of the spurs. he is like what Adrian Griffin is to the Mavs. a hard worker, great defender, great team player, and while they dont score much, they score efficiently, which is most important. Bowen is a hell of a player. i just think sometimes he has done some dirty stuff.
So you stated your opinion, and a few people don't agree with you. If you are as understand as you expect other people to be, then I just can't see how you would come back and repeatedly state the same things over and over again, just to make sure you get the last word.
Another point, I still can't see how you could "kinda point ... out" nobody gets away with anything extra, while a few post later state that the big name players get away with more. Perhaps one of us should really go read the posts up like you so often suggest other people do.

[stretchman21]

they get away with it more because they are on the court more and do more things, thus getting away with it more. But percentage-wise, there is little, if any difference. Perhaps when you assert anything like this, you would like to "prove it" like you would ask others to.
Karl Malone, dirty and a big name, got hit with techs and flagrants throughout his career, I don't see Bowen getting too many of those, despite his reputation is a hard-nose defender. Also, I would never consider Bowen to be a big name player.

So you stated your opinion, and a few people don't agree with you. If you are as understand as you expect other people to be, then I just can't see how you would come back and repeatedly state the same things over and over again, just to make sure you get the last word.
Another point, I still can't see how you could "kinda point ... out" nobody gets away with anything extra, while a few post later state that the big name players get away with more. Perhaps one of us should really go read the posts up like you so often suggest other people do.

you know what, several times i tried to end this pointless arguement, and now i am. im not going to reply to this any more, since you seem more focused on pointless crap, than talking basketball. i expressed my point of view, i respect others viewpoints, and i will leave it at that. good day to you, sir.

[rascal]

Bowen is a dirty player. He likes to undercut players while they are coming down from their shots by extending his legs under the shooter. He also will bump up close and extend his legs out unneccesarily and sometimes those legs make contact.

Defense is his game since he is so limited offensively and that includes dirty moves to disrupt his opponent.

Its effective because he often gets away with it. But do not deny that he is a dirty player because he plays for the spurs.

[ambchang]

you know what, several times i tried to end this pointless arguement, and now i am. im not going to reply to this any more, since you seem more focused on pointless crap, than talking basketball. i expressed my point of view, i respect others viewpoints, and i will leave it at that. good day to you, sir.

How were you trying to end the arguments? By saying people appear dumb? By calling people stupid? Accusing others of not ever playing that game or being a liar? Calling what I stated as pointless crap? Fact is, you were jumping back and forth between your arguments, and I am confused as to what your exact point was.
And how was talking about every player in the NBA gets away with stuff NOT talking about basketball? What was I talking about then? Baseball? How was I talking about how Bowen's alleged dirty play is none of my concern as long as he helps the Spurs win? What sport do you think he plays? Curling?

[stretchman21]

Bowen is a dirty player. He likes to undercut players while they are coming down from their shots by extending his legs under the shooter. He also will bump up close and extend his legs out unneccesarily and sometimes those legs make contact.

Defense is his game since he is so limited offensively and that includes dirty moves to disrupt his opponent.

Its effective because he often gets away with it. But do not deny that he is a dirty player because he plays for the spurs.
at least someone here is being somewhat resonable, and knows that he does do dirty things at times. im not going to go on and on about him being dirty, because being dirty is all part of being an aggressive defender.

[ShoogarBear]

at least someone here is being somewhat resonable.
Ahahahahahaha.

Shoulda looked up the rest of rascal's posts before you welcomed his support.

[stretchman21]

Ahahahahahaha.

Shoulda looked up the rest of rascal's posts before you welcomed his support.
im not welcoming any support. i just said that IMO, he made a non-biased, non-homer comment.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That's just like the internets.

When it's YOUR opinion, it's not-biased and non-homer.

[implacable44]

you know what, several times i tried to end this pointless arguement, and now i am. im not going to reply to this any more, since you seem more focused on pointless crap, than talking basketball. i expressed my point of view, i respect others viewpoints, and i will leave it at that. good day to you, sir.


loser

[Solid D]

I remember when Dirk Nowitzki stepped into Manu Ginobili's landing area during the WCs in Indy in 2002. The replay clearly showed an unusualness to his foot placement as he closed out to Manu. Manu severely sprained his ankle on Dirk's foot and it probably cost Argentina the championship, plus recovery time with the Spurs in '02.

He also did it against the T-Wolves' Kevin Garnett the next NBA season.

Is Dirk a dirty player?

[stretchman21]

I remember when Dirk Nowitzki stepped into Manu Ginobili's landing area during the WCs in Indy in 2002. The replay clearly showed an unusualness to his foot placement as he closed out to Manu. Manu severely sprained his ankle on Dirk's foot and it probably cost Argentina the championship, plus recovery time with the Spurs in '02.

He also did it against the T-Wolves' Kevin Garnett the next NBA season.

Is Dirk a dirty player?
well, i happen to recall Manu busting Dirk's ankle in the WCF in the 02-03 year. i cant remember if it was because he pushed him after a rebound, or if he did the same think Dirk supposedly did to him.

Is Manu a dirty player?

its one thing if it happens ONCE. but if you do it on a consistent basis, then that can be considered dirty by some people. however, i dont recall the Garnett thing at all. especially since he hasnt missed a game since 2001.

[stretchman21]

That's just like the internets.

When it's YOUR opinion, it's not-biased and non-homer.
in this case, yes. when he is rated by NBA players as the second dirtiest player in the NBA, and fans of just about any team EXCEPT the Spurs consider him a dirty player, id say that its agreed upon by the general public that he is a dirty player.

[FromWayDowntown]

well, i happen to recall Manu busting Dirk's ankle in the WCF in the 02-03 year. i cant remember if it was because he pushed him after a rebound, or if he did the same think Dirk supposedly did to him.

Is Manu a dirty player?

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Dirk was rebounding the ball and Manu challenged the rebound. Dirk came down funny and injured his knee, but all Manu did was contest a rebound. There was little or no contact and no malicious intent. Are we down to contending that a player who contests a rebound is dirty because the guy who rebounds the ball happens to land in manner that causes injury?

[leemajors]

when you're reaching like that anything makes sense fwd.

[stretchman21]

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Dirk was rebounding the ball and Manu challenged the rebound. Dirk came down funny and injured his knee, but all Manu did was contest a rebound. There was little or no contact and no malicious intent. Are we down to contending that a player who contests a rebound is dirty because the guy who rebounds the ball happens to land in manner that causes injury?
well, Dirk had no malicious intent when hurting Manu, so tell your boy who started this "ridiculous thing" to shut the hell up.

[FromWayDowntown]

well, Dirk had no malicious intent when hurting Manu, so tell your boy who started this "ridiculous thing" to shut the hell up.

Solid's point was that there was something unusual about the way Dirk played those shots. My point is that there was nothing unusual about the way Manu played that rebound.

Until you can refute either Solid's take or mine, yours is the ridiculous post.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If I were Bruce I wouldn't be satisfied with being No. 2. Aim to be number 1 Bruce!!

[Kori Ellis]

Seeing as Fortson doesn't get any playing time at all in Seattle, he'll be number 1 soon. :tu

[Mrs.Szczerbiak]

just love when he kicks players in the face like he did with that bitch Wally hahahaha


Awwwww!!! I like Wally!

[stretchman21]

Solid's point was that there was something unusual about the way Dirk played those shots. My point is that there was nothing unusual about the way Manu played that rebound.

Until you can refute either Solid's take or mine, yours is the ridiculous post.
ok. so if dirk plays tight defense, hes dirty. if Bowen plays tight defense, a large majority of you guys think hes perfectly clean, even though he has had a number of instances where he busted people ankles, while Dirk has had one (if that World Championship stuff really did happen...). make up your mind.

next...

[FromWayDowntown]

ok. so if dirk plays tight defense, hes dirty. if Bowen plays tight defense, a large majority of you guys think hes perfectly clean, even though he has had a number of instances where he busted people ankles, while Dirk has had one (if that World Championship stuff really did happen...). make up your mind.

next...

That's not at all what I said, though I can't speak for others.

What I said is that trying to say that Manu is dirty based on the exchange with Dirk is ridiculous. I never said I agreed with the sentiment that Dirk's foot placement made him dirty -- to do so would make me duplicitous as to Bowen, since similar things have happened with Bruce. So, from that standpoint, I would also have to agree that trying to paint Manu as dirty based on something that happened with Bruce would be equally ridiculous. Fortunately for me, though, I never tried to make that sort of a claim. You did.

I think what Solid was saying was that if it's dirty for Bruce to have his feet end up in a shooter's landing area, it's equally dirty for Dirk to do so. Now, if you're contending that it wasn't dirty for Dirk to do that, then I think you'd have to admit that it's hypocritical for you to base an assessment of Bowen on that sort of occurrence. If you have other reasons to think so badly of an admirable guy like Bruce Bowen, so be it. I find those arguments to be absurd, but as you say, it's your opinion. Just be sure that you stay consistent -- that's all we ask.

[stretchman21]

That's not at all what I said, though I can't speak for others.

What I said is that trying to say that Manu is dirty based on the exchange with Dirk is ridiculous. I never said I agreed with the sentiment that Dirk's foot placement made him dirty -- to do so would make me duplicitous as to Bowen, since similar things have happened with Bruce. So, from that standpoint, I would also have to agree that trying to paint Manu as dirty based on something that happened with Bruce would be equally ridiculous. Fortunately for me, though, I never tried to make that sort of a claim. You did.

I think what Solid was saying was that if it's dirty for Bruce to have his feet end up in a shooter's landing area, it's equally dirty for Dirk to do so. Now, if you're contending that it wasn't dirty for Dirk to do that, then I think you'd have to admit that it's hypocritical for you to base an assessment of Bowen on that sort of occurrence. If you have other reasons to think so badly of an admirable guy like Bruce Bowen, so be it. I find those arguments to be absurd, but as you say, it's your opinion. Just be sure that you stay consistent -- that's all we ask.
only one problem... Dirk SUPPOSEDLY did it ONE TIME. Bowen has busted more than one players ankle, and several have complained about his foot placements. i dont hear anyone saying anything about Dirk placing his foot in a bad place. that was ONE time, and it was unfortunate. if it was a one time thing with bowen, and no one really ever complained about it, then i would say the same. but its not.

and if you had READ MY POSTS, you would have seen, i have praised Bowen for being a classy person on and off the court. while i think he is at times dirty when playing, he is a classy individual, and that is very admirable.

[SequSpur]

Hey stretch..

your opinion doesn't mean shit in the world of opinions.

Thought I would give you a heads up.

[stretchman21]

Hey stretch..

your opinion doesn't mean shit in the world of opinions.

Thought I would give you a heads up.

Hey seguspur...

talking tough doesnt mean shit when its on the internet.

Thought I would give you a heads up.

[SequSpur]

Hey seguspur...

talking tough doesnt mean shit when its on the internet.

Thought I would give you a heads up.

meet me on the corner of Zarzamora and Military then.

Call me at 210-226-3232 when you're ready........

Mavboy.

:lol

[stretchman21]

meet me on the corner of Zarzamora and Military then.

Call me at 210-226-3232 when you're ready........

Mavboy.

:lol
is that a threat?

[Kori Ellis]

is that a threat?

If you dial the number, you'll figure out if it's a threat :lol

[slayermin]

A couple of guys I would like to add to the list as dirty.

Paul Pierce - I have seen him administer some nasty karate chops on our Spurs and others. He gets away with a lot, especially at home.

Snaq attaq - Yeah he is a HOFer. But as Tom Tolbert eloquently one said, Shaq should have lights on his azz with a "beep, beep" warning when he backs into you. And how about those freaking elbows when he turns to shoot on the lowpost. He's always elbowing somebody in the face.

Alonzo Mourning - He loves to throw the elbows too. I hate his tough guy act. He's been posterized so many times this season, he reminds me of Gheorge Muresan.

[stretchman21]

A couple of guys I would like to add to the list as dirty.

Paul Pierce - I have seen him administer some nasty karate chops on our Spurs and others. He gets away with a lot, especially at home.

Snaq attaq - Yeah he is a HOFer. But as Tom Tolbert eloquently one said, Shaq should have lights on his azz with a "beep, beep" warning when he backs into you. And how about those freaking elbows when he turns to shoot on the lowpost. He's always elbowing somebody in the face.

Alonzo Mourning - He loves to throw the elbows too. I hate his tough guy act. He's been posterized so many times this season, he reminds me of Gheorge Muresan.
i havent really payed much attention to paul pierce, so i cant comment on him. but Shaq and Mourning defintely throw a LOT of elbows. shaq is always using his elbow subtly to push someone behind him when he is inside on offense.

[pache100]

seriously... the spurs are babied by the league like crazy.

I will never take anything you say seriously again. If you believe that, you are so delusional, you should be institutionalized for your own (and everyone else's) safety.

[stretchman21]

I will never take anything you say seriously again. If you believe that, you are so delusional, you should be institutionalized for your own (and everyone else's) safety.
great insult. im sure it took you a whole 2 days to think of that one. please... seriously... dont waste my time with lame insults.

[island_dude]

If you dial the number, you'll figure out if it's a threat :lol
Some moderator you are. Condoning the board bully making a threat toward someone on spurs message board.

You people are a piece of work. We're taliking about basketball here people, it's not life or death.

[Peter]

Some moderator you are. Condoning the board bully making a threat toward someone on spurs message board.

You people are a piece of work. We're taliking about basketball here people, it's not life or death.


Dial the fucking number and you'll find out just how threatening it is. I've dialed it up on a couple of Halloweens just to spook myself.

[WalterBenitez]

...Is Dirk a dirty player?
Particularly for me Dirk is a tremendous player, a Superstar but not a gentleman he never apologize, say hi or whatever … in some occasion his behavior is border line my boy.

[ShoogarBear]

the board bully



:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[jcrod]

Some moderator you are. Condoning the board bully


:lol :lmao :lmao :rollin

[Trainwreck2100]

the board bully

I think Sequ earned a new title

[sickdsm]

Thanks for the laugh.

If Bowen is punching, spitting and hacking, why wouldn't they call it?

Stern/refs/NBA doesn't want the "small market" Spurs winning anything. So why would they ignore Bowen and hand the Spurs a championship?

Your theory sucks.

Who said punching and spitting? Seriiously, are you retarted or just a very innaccurate reporter when you feel like it? Where in my "theory" did i say that?

Don't put words into my mouth to help you believe what you want to.

This is my theory, so you know where i stand and i don't have to defend myself from the bullshit that you and your clones spew forth.

Defenders like Bowen, Artest, and Wallace are all guys that payed there dues. The NBA more than anything is a leauge based on that. Guys that deserve to be an AS alot of times aren't bc they havn't payed there dues. Awards at the end of the season, especially the DPOY are two or three seasons overdue. Its the rookie effect. Rashad McCants fouls alot. Yes, it is a foul. But i guarantee you guys like the above mentioned can get away with it. Right or wrong, it is what it is. The guys that continue to work hard eventually get the superstar calls, which is what Bowen gets on D.

Think about it, I know Bruce is a very smart guy but the guy is DEFINATELY not doing it because of his athletisicm. I don't mean that in a way that says he's out of shape but compared to the younger more athletic players its not like that. He's the sam cassell of defense. Hell, i'm not blind like Kori, even when sam was throwing daggers for the Wolves i admitted he pushed off all the time. I'm also not blind enough to think as a punk rookie he got away with it. He paid his dues. AI's carrying on his crossover, half of the legues moving screens. All get benefits of calls but the only way to get a dirty label is to foul guys and not have one called consistantly.


But your Kori and you tape record these guys, i'm sure you know the working conditions better then the guys that actually work there.


I never went so far as to say Stern does or doesn't want the spurs to win, i was referring to Bruce only. But Stern has been pushing the International flavor alot. Don't think for a second that he'd love to have the fans in Argentinia, slovenia, France, New Zealand watching instead of Indianapolis.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sick,

Quit being such a whiny bitch. There is no conspiracy, your team just sucks ass

[sickdsm]

I know they do, Is it safe (in your opinion) for me to say that Marbury is a cancer because his team is worse than the wolves?


Ohhhh, ohhh, i know, i have more basketball knowledge than anyone that's a Rockets fan because my teams better, right? Next week i might be more stupid though, depends on how they regroup after the break.


I pointed out my history of admitting that I've not been afraid of calling out the Wolves players for bias WHEN THEY PLAYED HERE. Not only sam but last weeks blast on KG about how he gets away with calls on the defense end.

I have a track record, unlike the masses here. Where's yours and Kori's track record of calling a spade a spade again? Or are most around here a more moderate version of Tpark?

[ambchang]

You are the only objective poster here, let us all bow down to thee.

[SouthernFried]

I can't beleive anyone is buying into this "Bowen is dirty" crap...especially any Spurs fans.

Bowen is NOT a dirty player. He is a good Defensive player. Of course other NBA players will call someone who plays tight defense on them dirty...if they didn't, they would have to give credit to someone for shutting them down.

Bowen plays tight, in your face defense. When the fuck did that become dirty? Have you seen the shit guys like Hamilton and the biggest cry-baby in the league, Ray Allen, do to Bowen? He's in their jersey the whole game...they throw elbows and punches at him the whole time. NOT because he's playing dirty...but because he is all over them.

Playing all over an offensiive person...IS NOT FUCKING DIRTY!!

Bowen doesn't throw punches, flagrantly fouls, or elbows anyone in the face...because he doesn't play dirty. He doesn't foul out of games...because he doesn't play dirty. If you watched the Seattle game tonite...you saw ALLEN throwing the punches, and elbows at Bruce...not Vice versa. That's playing dirty.

Don't buy into this crap. Because, except for the occassionally Bruce Lee kick in the face...Bruce is simply not a dirty player.

[WalterBenitez]

Bruce is dirty, Tim is boring and Manu is a flopper, who cares?? TP is dating with Eva!!