Simple Questions for the pro-Amnesty crowd

[Yonivore]

This may have already been answered somewhere but, I missed it.

1) Why do some Mexicans immigrate illegally while other Mexicans adhere to the formal, legal, and proscribed process for gaining entry, securing visas, or becoming a naturalized citizen of the United States.

2) How can you advocate granting citizenship en-masse without considering there are criminals that have crossed the border to do this country harm? 15,000 illegal Mexican aliens (who committed crimes other than just being here illegally) sit in California prisons now. There is evidence the drug cartels and Mexican gangs are starting to communicate and cooperate with terrorist organizations.

Just curious how the pro-amnesty crowd feels on these two questions.

[Clandestino]

This may have already been answered somewhere but, I missed it.

1) Why do some Mexicans immigrate illegally while other Mexicans adhere to the formal, legal, and proscribed process for gaining entry, securing visas, or becoming a naturalized citizen of the United States.

2) How can you advocate granting citizenship en-masse without considering there are criminals that have crossed the border to do this country harm? 15,000 illegal Mexican aliens (who committed crimes other than just being here illegally) sit in California prisons now. There is evidence the drug cartels and Mexican gangs are starting to communicate and cooperate with terrorist organizations.

Just curious how the pro-amnesty crowd feels on these two questions.

1. many are here illegally while still filing the necessary paperwork to become legal.. it is not as easy at signing up for a new username at spurstalk to become legal.

2. not sure of their crimes. can't comment on them...

[Oh, Gee!!]

1. many are here illegally while still filing the necessary paperwork to become legal.. it is not as easy at signing up for a new username at spurstalk to become legal.

2. not sure of their crimes. can't comment on them...

1. What he said.

2. Unless you're a citizen, you can be deported for a conviction. There's a system already in place for dealing with criminals from other countries.

[Yonivore]

1. many are here illegally while still filing the necessary paperwork to become legal.. it is not as easy at signing up for a new username at spurstalk to become legal.
Most are not. And, that still doesn't explain why some are willing to wait out the process and others are not.


2. not sure of their crimes. can't comment on them...
They vary from minor offenses to capital murder.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Most are not. And, that still doesn't explain why some are willing to wait out the process and others are not.

money.

[Yonivore]

money.
Robbery is a crime people commit for money.

That's why illegal immigration is a crime. It cheats those who are working within the system to gain citizenship or legal work status out of money. Some of the most vocal opponents to the current crop of immigration protesters are those who worked hard to gain the right to be a U.S. Citizen -- particularly those who immigrated from Mexico legally.

It also cheats the host nation out of knowing who the fuck is roaming their streets -- regardless of their intentions.

Also, those who come here illegally feel less obligated to uphold the ideals of America that drew those who chose to immigrate here legally in the first place. (hence all the Mexican flags at these protests and all the "re-conquistador" crap). If these people got what they wanted, they'd be like Mexico in about 5 years.

Finally, where does it stop and which nationality of people -- if any -- should be subject to the immigration laws?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Robbery is a crime people commit for money.

That's why illegal immigration is a crime. It cheats those who are working within the system to gain citizenship or legal work status out of money. Some of the most vocal opponents to the current crop of immigration protesters are those who worked hard to gain the right to be a U.S. Citizen -- particularly those who immigrated from Mexico legally.

It also cheats the host nation out of knowing who the fuck is roaming their streets -- regardless of their intentions.

Also, those who come here illegally feel less obligated to uphold the ideals of America that drew those who chose to immigrate here legally in the first place. (hence all the Mexican flags at these protests and all the "re-conquistador" crap). If these people got what they wanted, they'd be like Mexico in about 5 years.

Finally, where does it stop and which nationality of people -- if any -- should be subject to the immigration laws?

CUBA, anyone?

[MannyIsGod]

You can draw your distincitions between right and wrong as far as illegal immigrants are concerned and its very easy when you're not the one living in a 3rd world country with a very easy way to make more for your family just to your north. Its really fucking easy to play armchair quaterback when you're not the one who is living in a shithole.

[Yonivore]

You can draw your distincitions between right and wrong as far as illegal immigrants are concerned and its very easy when you're not the one living in a 3rd world country with a very easy way to make more for your family just to your north. Its really fucking easy to play armchair quaterback when you're not the one who is living in a shithole.
That's a common excuse for many crimes. What you're failing to acknowledge is that their crime of illegal immigration makes it more difficult for those who are here legally to find jobs and to assimilate.

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.

Sorry, I don't feel sorry for the dude that robs a bank to buy formula for his baby either.

[Oh, Gee!!]

That's a common excuse for many crimes. What you're failing to acknowledge is that their crime of illegal immigration makes it more difficult for those who are here legally to find jobs and to assimilate.

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.

Sorry, I don't feel sorry for the dude that robs a bank to buy formula for his baby either.

What about the guy who steals baby formula to feed his baby?

[NASCARdad]

Why are do we even have to ask such questions?
They are here ILLEGALLY!! I'm all for following the law to become a legal resident of the US but if not than you need to have your ass deported.

[MannyIsGod]

If Americans want to blame someone for this problem they have no further to look than the mirror. America has sat by knowing full well what was going on and it hasn't even made a token effort to stop it. And now, in a post 9/11 world they are fearful of open borders and are now trying to address a problem that has been on going for decades.

When you fall asleep at the wheel, don't try to make the people who are breaking your laws take some kind of introspective look into what they are doing and how it theoreticaly harms the average American person (which is complete bullshit either way).

I'll tell you right now that if I was in Mexico and could make more money here to support my family, I would do it in a heartbeat; American laws be damned.

I don't think outright citizenship is what many of these people really want in the end. I believe they want a chance to work but they don't require citizenship. How in the hell do any of you expect them to grasp onto the American flag when they are outsiders in this country? All of the uproar over the native flags they wave is silly. That is the only thing they can identifiy with!

There's also so much bullshit about assimilation flying around. These people don't conform blah blah blah. Since when has conformity ever been a something we value in America? People are always xenophobic and you can try to masquerade it through different ways but it always boils down to the same damn thing.

Fix the damn border, let the people here stay in some legal form, and implement a guest worker program.

Everything is all moot unless you fix the border however. Trying to make them felons is idiotic as hell. But hey, Joe Republican Rep can show that he's DOING SOMETHING.

[MannyIsGod]

That's a common excuse for many crimes. What you're failing to acknowledge is that their crime of illegal immigration makes it more difficult for those who are here legally to find jobs and to assimilate.

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.

Sorry, I don't feel sorry for the dude that robs a bank to buy formula for his baby either.Excuse or cause? As I said, the lines between right and wrong become a lot more blurry when you're in that situation. You can keep up your hardline stance, but in the real world things are different.

[smeagol]

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.
People who chose to immigrate legally are usually qualified workers who are not suffering in their own countries like the indocumentados suffer.

Your analogy is flawed.

[nkdlunch]

What you're failing to acknowledge is that their crime of illegal immigration makes it more difficult for those who are here legally to find jobs and to assimilate.


NOBODY can prove that statement you just made, and beleive me people have tried. It is not a fact it is a myth.

[nkdlunch]

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.


There is no such thing anymore. The US has closed its doors as far as immigrating LEGALLY. This is why the only option is ILLEGALLY.

[Oh, Gee!!]

There is no such thing anymore. The US has closed its doors as far as immigrating LEGALLY. This is why the only option is ILLEGALLY.


Don't worry, Yoni, I'm on it. LINK???!!!???

[Yonivore]

Excuse or cause? As I said, the lines between right and wrong become a lot more blurry when you're in that situation. You can keep up your hardline stance, but in the real world things are different.
Excuse. It's only a cause when everyone so situated takes the same course of action.

[Yonivore]

What about the guy who steals baby formula to feed his baby?
In this country? It's a crime. There is so much public assistance, there is no excuse for a baby to go without formula.

[DarkReign]

Don't worry, Yoni, I'm on it. LINK???!!!???

LOL

FTW!11!!!!!1

[MannyIsGod]

Excuse. It's only a cause when everyone so situated takes the same course of action.:lmao

I'm going to remember that. Oh, I'm sooooooooooooooooooooo going to remember that.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Excuse. It's only a cause when everyone so situated takes the same course of action.

Link?

[spurster]

Illegal immigration has generally been ignored because ignoring it has been good for business. Until Congress makes felons out of the businesses and people that hire them and ensures enforcement, talking about it is only so much hot air.

[George W Bush]

You can draw your distincitions between right and wrong as far as illegal immigrants are concerned and its very easy when you're not the one living in a 3rd world country with a very easy way to make more for your family just to your north. Its really fucking easy to play armchair quaterback when you're not the one who is living in a shithole.

It's like I told people before,

'I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family.'

God Bless America :tu

[cheguevara]

easy


This may have already been answered somewhere but, I missed it.

1) Why do some Mexicans immigrate illegally while other Mexicans adhere to the formal, legal, and proscribed process for gaining entry, securing visas, or becoming a naturalized citizen of the United States.


There are currently very limited ways to immigrate to this country legally. One is to find a job here and get sponsored, another is the green card/visa lotteries and another is to marry an american citizen. As you can see a poor 3rd world country citizens(not only mexican) cannot in any way do either of the above 3 things. So the very desperate ones risk everything and come in here illegally. Easy no?


2) How can you advocate granting citizenship en-masse without considering there are criminals that have crossed the border to do this country harm? 15,000 illegal Mexican aliens (who committed crimes other than just being here illegally) sit in California prisons now. There is evidence the drug cartels and Mexican gangs are starting to communicate and cooperate with terrorist organizations.

Just curious how the pro-amnesty crowd feels on these two questions.

The gangs are a product of DRUGS and is in no way associated with illegal immigation. In other words, if illegal immigration were nonexistend, there would still be gangs that operate across borders. Nobody is advocating citizenship to the criminals. They should be either deported or remain in prison. This has been explicitly stated in the protests.

[cheguevara]

Seems like the protests are working...

GOP leadership backs away from tough immigration measure
Hastert, Frist suggest felony provision should be dropped

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The top Republicans in both the House and Senate are indicating they don't support language in an immigration bill that would make entering the country illegally a felony.

The proposal has drawn the ire of pro-immigrant groups that have staged a wave of protests in recent weeks.

The provision making illegal immigration a felony was contained in an immigration reform bill passed by the House in December. But in a joint statement issued Tuesday evening, House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee both indicated they wanted the language dropped.

Frist and Hastert also criticized House Democrats, who, they said, opposed efforts by Republicans to strip the provision from the bill before it passed.

"Instead, they voted to make felons out of all of those who remain in our country illegally," their statement said. (Watch the politics of immigration -- 2:28)

Frist and Hastert did not specify whether they wanted unlawful presence in the United States to be a misdemeanor or carry a lesser penalty.

Their statement was also silent on the question of whether they had come to any agreement on two issues that have split Republicans -- creating a guest-worker program, or allowing undocumented immigrants in the country illegally to work their way toward legal status.

The provision making illegal immigration a felony was part of a bill pushed by House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican. It passed the House in December by a vote of 239-182, with only 36 Democrats supporting the final version of the measure.

Responding to Tuesday's criticism of Democrats by Hastert and Frist, Jennifer Crider, a spokeswoman for House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California, said "no amount of spin can change the fact that Republicans wrote and passed the Sensenbrenner bill, which criminalizes an entire population."

Crider also said Republicans "are feeling the heat" after demonstrations that brought out hundreds of thousands of protesters Monday at rallies in at least 140 cities in more than 39 states. (Full story)

Sensenbrenner, who sponsored the provision making illegal immigration a felony, said last week that he tried to remove it from the bill in December and remains open to making the change as the House and Senate try to reach an agreement on a final bill.

Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, a leading advocate of cracking down on illegal immigration, has accused Democrats of trying to keep the felony provision in the bill as a "poison pill."

But Sen. Edward Kennedy on Tuesday dismissed such characterizations.

"Actions speak louder than words, and there's no running away from the fact that the Republican House passed a bill and Senator Frist offered one that criminalizes immigrants," the Massachusetts Democrat said.

"This debate shouldn't be about making criminals out of hard-working families ... but rather about strengthening our national security and enacting a law that reflects our best values and our humanity," he said in a written statement.

Sensenbrenner's bill also calls for building 700 miles of security fence along the Mexican border and would also make assisting illegal immigrants a felony.

It does not include a guest-worker provision, as President Bush has called for, or a legalization process for people already in the United States illegally. Critics dismiss that idea as "amnesty," while supporters call it "earned citizenship." (Watch how illegal labor impacts the economy -- 2:42)

House GOP aides said Tuesday that language aimed at punishing people who help illegal immigrants was aimed at smugglers who bring people across the border, not at charities who assist the migrants.

As protests against the House bill mounted in late March, the White House and the Republican National Committee raised concerns that the anti-immigration sentiment coming from some corners of the GOP would turn off Latino voters that Bush and his political team have worked hard to court.

But Republican leaders must also contend with a growing chorus within their conservative base to crack down on illegal immigration. (Watch importance of Latino vote questioned -- 2:07)

Senate attempts to pass an immigration reform bill stalled last week when a measure establishing a guest-worker program and a mechanism for legalization failed to overcome opposition from conservative Republicans

[SA210]

Seems like the protests are working...

GOP leadership backs away from tough immigration measure
Hastert, Frist suggest felony provision should be dropped

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The top Republicans in both the House and Senate are indicating they don't support language in an immigration bill that would make entering the country illegally a felony.

The proposal has drawn the ire of pro-immigrant groups that have staged a wave of protests in recent weeks.

The provision making illegal immigration a felony was contained in an immigration reform bill passed by the House in December. But in a joint statement issued Tuesday evening, House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee both indicated they wanted the language dropped.

Frist and Hastert also criticized House Democrats, who, they said, opposed efforts by Republicans to strip the provision from the bill before it passed.

"Instead, they voted to make felons out of all of those who remain in our country illegally," their statement said. (Watch the politics of immigration -- 2:28)

Frist and Hastert did not specify whether they wanted unlawful presence in the United States to be a misdemeanor or carry a lesser penalty.

Their statement was also silent on the question of whether they had come to any agreement on two issues that have split Republicans -- creating a guest-worker program, or allowing undocumented immigrants in the country illegally to work their way toward legal status.

The provision making illegal immigration a felony was part of a bill pushed by House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican. It passed the House in December by a vote of 239-182, with only 36 Democrats supporting the final version of the measure.

Responding to Tuesday's criticism of Democrats by Hastert and Frist, Jennifer Crider, a spokeswoman for House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California, said "no amount of spin can change the fact that Republicans wrote and passed the Sensenbrenner bill, which criminalizes an entire population."

Crider also said Republicans "are feeling the heat" after demonstrations that brought out hundreds of thousands of protesters Monday at rallies in at least 140 cities in more than 39 states. (Full story)

Sensenbrenner, who sponsored the provision making illegal immigration a felony, said last week that he tried to remove it from the bill in December and remains open to making the change as the House and Senate try to reach an agreement on a final bill.

Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, a leading advocate of cracking down on illegal immigration, has accused Democrats of trying to keep the felony provision in the bill as a "poison pill."

But Sen. Edward Kennedy on Tuesday dismissed such characterizations.

"Actions speak louder than words, and there's no running away from the fact that the Republican House passed a bill and Senator Frist offered one that criminalizes immigrants," the Massachusetts Democrat said.

"This debate shouldn't be about making criminals out of hard-working families ... but rather about strengthening our national security and enacting a law that reflects our best values and our humanity," he said in a written statement.

Sensenbrenner's bill also calls for building 700 miles of security fence along the Mexican border and would also make assisting illegal immigrants a felony.

It does not include a guest-worker provision, as President Bush has called for, or a legalization process for people already in the United States illegally. Critics dismiss that idea as "amnesty," while supporters call it "earned citizenship." (Watch how illegal labor impacts the economy -- 2:42)

House GOP aides said Tuesday that language aimed at punishing people who help illegal immigrants was aimed at smugglers who bring people across the border, not at charities who assist the migrants.

As protests against the House bill mounted in late March, the White House and the Republican National Committee raised concerns that the anti-immigration sentiment coming from some corners of the GOP would turn off Latino voters that Bush and his political team have worked hard to court.

But Republican leaders must also contend with a growing chorus within their conservative base to crack down on illegal immigration. (Watch importance of Latino vote questioned -- 2:07)

Senate attempts to pass an immigration reform bill stalled last week when a measure establishing a guest-worker program and a mechanism for legalization failed to overcome opposition from conservative Republicans
Si Se Puede!

[Trainwreck2100]

I don't understand why this shit is an issue, this country has worked this way for 200+ years, and people want to make something of it now.

[boutons_]

http://www.creators.com/0409/LK/LK0411g.gif

[JoeChalupa]

Tough call. I don't want blind amnesty and quite honestly I don't know the answer is.

[boutons_]

a horribly complex problem.

a mix I saw suggested was amnesty for everybody here, but build fence to keep more illegals out. Whatever the solutions will be, the policing/enforcement costs will be horrendous.

[Phenomanul]

If Americans want to blame someone for this problem they have no further to look than the mirror. America has sat by knowing full well what was going on and it hasn't even made a token effort to stop it. And now, in a post 9/11 world they are fearful of open borders and are now trying to address a problem that has been on going for decades.

When you fall asleep at the wheel, don't try to make the people who are breaking your laws take some kind of introspective look into what they are doing and how it theoreticaly harms the average American person (which is complete bullshit either way).

I'll tell you right now that if I was in Mexico and could make more money here to support my family, I would do it in a heartbeat; American laws be damned.

I don't think outright citizenship is what many of these people really want in the end. I believe they want a chance to work but they don't require citizenship. How in the hell do any of you expect them to grasp onto the American flag when they are outsiders in this country? All of the uproar over the native flags they wave is silly. That is the only thing they can identifiy with!

There's also so much bullshit about assimilation flying around. These people don't conform blah blah blah. Since when has conformity ever been a something we value in America? People are always xenophobic and you can try to masquerade it through different ways but it always boils down to the same damn thing.

Fix the damn border, let the people here stay in some legal form, and implement a guest worker program.

Everything is all moot unless you fix the border however. Trying to make them felons is idiotic as hell. But hey, Joe Republican Rep can show that he's DOING SOMETHING.


You are right on... with regards to this topic...

[Phenomanul]

People who chose to immigrate legally are usually qualified workers who are not suffering in their own countries like the indocumentados suffer.

Your analogy is flawed.


He won't understand it cause he assumes the legal pathways are as easy as 1 2 3....

The legal pathways are expensive and cumbersome... more than 99% of people applying for a VISA are turned down or disswayed by the ridiculous costs and time required to actually obtain legal entry.

[Oh, Gee!!]

He won't understand it cause he assumes the legal pathways are as easy as 1 2 3....

The legal pathways are expensive and cumbersome... more than 99% of people applying for a VISA are turned down or disswayed by the ridiculous costs and time required to actually obtain legal entry.


yet he'd probably defend to the death the Enron execs. Good old, Yoni.

[xrayzebra]

Want some really interesting information. Those that entered the country
legally wouldn't be covered in the amnesty bill. Great little piece of legislation
isn't it. They gotta go thru the old process. No sir, you gotta be a law breaker
to get the fast track.

[Mr. Peabody]

Unless you're a citizen, you can be deported for a conviction. There's a system already in place for dealing with criminals from other countries.

Right, but these people will be deported only after they've committed the crime. So you are talking about tens of thousands of crimes (potentially with tens of thousands of victims) being committed by people that never should have been here in the first place.

Your remedy is too little too late.

[Mr. Peabody]

That's a common excuse for many crimes. What you're failing to acknowledge is that their crime of illegal immigration makes it more difficult for those who are here legally to find jobs and to assimilate.

What about the people who choose to immigrate legally? they're coming from the same "3rd world country," the same "shithole;" yet, they play by the rules.

Sorry, I don't feel sorry for the dude that robs a bank to buy formula for his baby either.

You make it seem as if everyone that wants to come to this country to work can do so legally and that is simply not the case. The government caps the number of work visas per year. So you have people that want to work, but can't come over legally because the work visas are capped out. What do you do then?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Right, but these people will be deported only after they've committed the crime. So you are talking about tens of thousands of crimes (potentially with tens of thousands of victims) being committed by people that never should have been here in the first place.

Your remedy is too little too late.


Sounds like a good argument for abortion. I keed. I keed.

[Yonivore]

You make it seem as if everyone that wants to come to this country to work can do so legally and that is simply not the case. The government caps the number of work visas per year. So you have people that want to work, but can't come over legally because the work visas are capped out. What do you do then?
What is the rationale for caps?

[gtown's dad]

Illegals are ok in my book.

[steven seagal]

my family came from Sicili, the old country

[Guru of Nothing]

Want some really interesting information. Those that entered the country
legally wouldn't be covered in the amnesty bill. Great little piece of legislation
isn't it. They gotta go thru the old process. No sir, you gotta be a law breaker
to get the fast track.

Let's fix this problem once and for all xray - MANDATORY prison sentences for individuals that employ illegal aliens.

Why not??

[Phenomanul]

Want some really interesting information. Those that entered the country
legally wouldn't be covered in the amnesty bill. Great little piece of legislation
isn't it. They gotta go thru the old process. No sir, you gotta be a law breaker
to get the fast track.


How about we think outside the box on this one Xray?

Maybe, just maybe there is something wrong with the legal process on this one.

When perfectly honest people have to 'break a law' just to make an honest and well-earned living then perhaps the law and those processes need to be questioned --- which is exactly what is being observed today.

I love this country, but compassion towards my fellow human beings should transcend beyond geographic, and nationalistic lines. I just hope others wouldn't letty petty things such as money or power get in their way.

[Nbadan]

Let's fix this problem once and for all xray - MANDATORY prison sentences for individuals that employ illegal aliens.

Why not??

There you go, enforce and toughen the laws that are already in the books regarding the employing of illegals, and they won't come so fast. But the Republicans won't do that because that would mean attacking the business community, and that means loss of campaign money.

[gtownspur]

How about we think outside the box on this one Xray?

Maybe, just maybe there is something wrong with the legal process on this one.

When perfectly honest people have to 'break a law' just to make an honest and well-earned living then perhaps the law and those processes need to be questioned --- which is exactly what is being observed today.

I love this country, but compassion towards my fellow human beings should transcend beyond geographic, and nationalistic lines. I just hope others wouldn't letty petty things such as money or power get in their way.


DOes not the bible says in the epistles to something like, charity begins in the home. We are a country of benefits, when you have illegals cross over, those same benefits awarded to our citizens, have to be given to illegals. it's like this parable "We only have so much bread to impart with the hungry." IF they are here, we have to give them all sorts of aid. Blanket amnesty will do that and will bankrupt our social services.

It's assinine to think that the immi laws are the culprit, how bout the fact that illegal's come into the country illegally by droves, limits the need for legal immigrants to come here, and makes the process harder. if buttloads are arriving, why do you want to relax the process? That's insane, and wont work. If people are desperate, waiting from 10 years to now 2, it wont make a difference.

What's immoral is the fact that feel gooders want to turn away from this illegal act happening and say that "they are just trying to make a better living". While defending the status qou, they are also defending the "sweepstakes" like process that occurs now, which keeos alot of people in danger coming over here, having to go through obstacles physically and emotionally.

We need to actually improve our borders by either building a wall, training the national guard to help out, or increasing border patrol while penalizing buisinesses who hire these people.
Massive deportation, needs to be done. a sensible deportation would be to deport any illegal who has a criminal record, or is serving time, as well as deport anyone who has been here for only the last two years. Deportation, even on a small scale like the one i provided, will send a message, and will mean that we are serious.
BUt the other things also need to be enforced.

[gtownspur]

I guess no one wants to refute my post?....

[Oh, Gee!!]

I guess no one wants to refute my post?....


doesn't the Bible say "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's?"

[xrayzebra]

Let's fix this problem once and for all xray - MANDATORY prison sentences for individuals that employ illegal aliens.

Why not??

I have no problem at all with prosecueting those who employ illegals. It
was Congress fault that it isn't being done. Although, someone is feeling
the heat from the American public, read about all the folks at the pallet
companies? Of course ICE said they had been working on problem for
a year....yeah, you bet.


How about we think outside the box on this one Xray?

Maybe, just maybe there is something wrong with the legal process on this one.

When perfectly honest people have to 'break a law' just to make an honest and well-earned living then perhaps the law and those processes need to be questioned --- which is exactly what is being observed today.

I love this country, but compassion towards my fellow human beings should transcend beyond geographic, and nationalistic lines. I just hope others wouldn't letty petty things such as money or power get in their
way

There was really nothing wrong with the present law, it just wasn't enforced
a. Border Patrol did not have nearly enough people to enforce it, considering
the amount of people coming across. b. When enforcement was tried
against the employers, they called their Congressmen/Senators and
had them call off the dogs. Congress told INS to quit enforcing the law.
Not only that, cities, such as San Antonio took and still take the stand
that they will not help enforce the law. SAPD/SO could help considerably
by holding illegals for USBP, which is done by many Police Departments.
DPS used to do it, but now the only thing they will do is call BP when
they catch someone smuggling illegals.

SA210. Your demonstrations aren't going to come off on the 1st of May
like you wanted. The "leaders" have seen the handwriting on the wall.
And employers are telling their workers: work or get fired. Me personally,
I plan on going shopping that day.

[Phenomanul]

DOes not the bible says in the epistles to something like, charity begins in the home. We are a country of benefits, when you have illegals cross over, those same benefits awarded to our citizens, have to be given to illegals. it's like this parable "We only have so much bread to impart with the hungry." IF they are here, we have to give them all sorts of aid. Blanket amnesty will do that and will bankrupt our social services.

Based on what figures??? I believe the primary focus of migrant workers is to work... Don't they pay Social Security Taxes just like the rest of us citizens??? Don't they pay sales taxes too?

With regards to healthcare don't even get me started on that issue.... the underlying problem in that system is that everything is overpriced; medicines, services, treatments, appointments... etc... AND a large chunk of that particular financial burden on the government stems from high medical pricing (a market not driven by supply and demand) moreso than from the numbers of people (illegal or not) requiring aid.



It's assinine to think that the immi laws are the culprit, how bout the fact that illegal's come into the country illegally by droves, limits the need for legal immigrants to come here, and makes the process harder. if buttloads are arriving, why do you want to relax the process? That's insane, and wont work. If people are desperate, waiting from 10 years to now 2, it wont make a difference.

It does when you consider their motives.... If I'm the desperate person in your example and can't feed my children what makes you think I would want to wait 2 years and spend up to a year's worth of my salary on obtaining legal permission???

The problem is not as simple as you have defined it.


What's immoral is the fact that feel gooders want to turn away from this illegal act happening and say that "they are just trying to make a better living". While defending the status qou, they are also defending the "sweepstakes" like process that occurs now, which keeos alot of people in danger coming over here, having to go through obstacles physically and emotionally.

We need to actually improve our borders by either building a wall, training the national guard to help out, or increasing border patrol while penalizing buisinesses who hire these people.

So we spend more money.... to keep people out as opposed to spending it on and for the people...

Building a wall???? Have we come to such hypocrisy??? Remember Berlin?


Massive deportation, needs to be done. a sensible deportation would be to deport any illegal who has a criminal record, or is serving time, as well as deport anyone who has been here for only the last two years. Deportation, even on a small scale like the one i provided, will send a message, and will mean that we are serious.
BUt the other things also need to be enforced.


Deportation of criminals was never in debate...

A massive deportation like the one you describe would cost considerably more money than the money supposedly vanishing from our reserves on account of goverment aid to 'illegals'.

Embrace yourself for $5/gal milk, $5/doz of eggs, $3 heads of lettuce, $5/lb grapefruit and oranges.... not to mention the fact that plumbers, roof-repairers, gardeners, would cost more money to hire... and that the $/sq-ft of construction would likely go up by 20% or more....

If you have the 'money' to swallow all of those unneccesary inflations just realize that not all of us do.

[xrayzebra]

Based on what figures??? I believe the primary focus of migrant workers is to work... Don't they pay Social Security Taxes just like the rest of us citizens??? Don't they pay sales taxes too?

With regards to healthcare don't even get me started on that issue.... the underlying problem in that system is that everything is overpriced; medicines, services, treatments, appointments... etc... AND a large chunk of that particular financial burden on the government stems from high medical pricing (a market not driven by supply and demand) moreso than from the numbers of people (illegal or not) requiring aid.




It does when you consider their motives.... If I'm the desperate person in your example and can't feed my children what makes you think I would want to wait 2 years and spend up to a year's worth of my salary on obtaining legal permission???

The problem is not as simple as you have defined it.



So we spend more money.... to keep people out as opposed to spending it on and for the people...

Building a wall???? Have we come to such hypocrisy??? Remember Berlin?




Deportation of criminals was never in debate...

A massive deportation like the one you describe would cost considerably more money than the money supposedly vanishing from our reserves on account of goverment aid to 'illegals'.

Embrace yourself for $5/gal milk, $5/doz of eggs, $3 heads of lettuce, $5/lb grapefruit and oranges.... not to mention the fact that plumbers, roof-repairers, gardeners, would cost more money to hire... and that the $/sq-ft of construction would likely go up by 20% or more....

If you have the 'money' to swallow all of those unneccesary inflations just realize that not all of us do.

BS, BS and more BS......illegals do not decrease the cost of the things you
cite. Besides we are paying alot more than than the price at the
grocery store for these items through social programs. We should
"embrace" or "brace" these cost. I only like to enbrace ladies.

Bye the way many of the illegals work "off the book". You know like
day workers, where many of our fine cites provide a convient location
for them to be picked up by contractors who go by each day to pick
them up to do, well you know, day work.

[Spam]

BS, BS and more BS......illegals do not decrease the cost of the things you
cite. Besides we are paying alot more than than the price at the
grocery store for these items through social programs. We should
"embrace" or "brace" these cost. I only like to enbrace ladies.

Bye the way many of the illegals work "off the book". You know like
day workers, where many of our fine cites provide a convient location
for them to be picked up by contractors who go by each day to pick
them up to do, well you know, day work.

SPAM!

[xrayzebra]

SPAM!

my thoughts exactly. :lol

[Sec24Row7]

Why not just do like Mexico does to Illegal Immigrants in THEIR country from Guatemala and El Salvador?

Beat the Men, Rape the Women, and steal every penny they have on them?

Sounds good huh?

Not.

[Phenomanul]

BS, BS and more BS......illegals do not decrease the cost of the things you
cite. Besides we are paying alot more than than the price at the
grocery store for these items through social programs. We should
"embrace" or "brace" these cost. I only like to enbrace ladies.

Bye the way many of the illegals work "off the book". You know like
day workers, where many of our fine cites provide a convient location
for them to be picked up by contractors who go by each day to pick
them up to do, well you know, day work.


Cite the figures. I see no compassion in you.

[gtownspur]

Based on what figures??? I believe the primary focus of migrant workers is to work... Don't they pay Social Security Taxes just like the rest of us citizens??? Don't they pay sales taxes too?

MAtters what you mean? Illegal aliens work many jobs like ;gardening, and construction, etc, that pays under the table with cash. ANd the whole

"well the pay sales taxes too?" Is pretty stupid. Just because one pays sales taxes, which are state taxes, doesn't mean that they are contributing like other legal immigrants. Sales taxes mean squat. Hell even bums pay sales taxes for liquor.


With regards to healthcare don't even get me started on that issue.... the underlying problem in that system is that everything is overpriced; medicines, services, treatments, appointments... etc... AND a large chunk of that particular financial burden on the government stems from high medical pricing (a market not driven by supply and demand) moreso than from the numbers of people (illegal or not) requiring aid.

You know why it's overpriced? Maybe because we have many uninsured illegals going clogging the hospitals with industrial accidents, as well as recieving free natal care because they want to have their children born here so that they can recieve benefits. WHo the hell foots the bill when an illegal doesnt pay up? WE do.



It does when you consider their motives.... If I'm the desperate person in your example and can't feed my children what makes you think I would want to wait 2 years and spend up to a year's worth of my salary on obtaining legal permission???

The problem is not as simple as you have defined it.



So we spend more money.... to keep people out as opposed to spending it on and for the people...

They the illegals are not our people, we should keep them out seeing how they are draining the social programs from our own people who actually need those oppurtunities.

WHy do you think that there is a 40% unemployment for African american males in inner cities with huge illegal alien populations? BEcuase they have to compete with someone who will work for 35-50% less.

WHy should we only give out amnesty and have open border policies towards mexicans? Would you advocate open borders for those of MID Eastern countries who have extremist ideologies and a totally different viewpoint of civilization. Would you open the flood gates to them, and risk having america change severely? I bet not. And we cannot support everyone in the world nor are we obliged to take them in.

WHy dont you allow hobos to enter your house and have you take care of them. Not just one, but maybe 4 or even 11 hobos? Is it possible to do so? NO. But if one is to be charitous one can only strive to keep his own home in good harmony first and foremost.

When we allow amnesty for illegal aliens, we are rewarding illegal behavior and are screwing our own brothers of our house who will have to compete with the demand for social services.


Building a wall???? Have we come to such hypocrisy??? Remember Berlin?

Dumb comparison. THe berlin wall seperated a country that was established before the wall was implemented.

Building a wall on our border is totally different.



Deportation of criminals was never in debate...

A massive deportation like the one you describe would cost considerably more money than the money supposedly vanishing from our reserves on account of goverment aid to 'illegals'.

Embrace yourself for $5/gal milk, $5/doz of eggs, $3 heads of lettuce, $5/lb grapefruit and oranges.... not to mention the fact that plumbers, roof-repairers, gardeners, would cost more money to hire... and that the $/sq-ft of construction would likely go up by 20% or more....

If you have the 'money' to swallow all of those unneccesary inflations just realize that not all of us do.

I guess you're defending of the status quo , of having a bogus immigration agency who is supposed to handle illegal border crossing, and an artificial border, is a whole lot saintlier.

But this is where you are wrong.

Illegals come over here under dire circumstances. Having a sweepstakes like process that puts alot of illegals in danger over here rather than just making the process virtually impossible only ends up hurting those wishing to cross over here, and kills any incentive for the neighboring country to ever get better and care for its own citizens.


WHy should you support having people living here under a serf style system. If you are gonna have illegals over here, you might as well give them the right to vote. Why exploit them?

[NASCARdad]

While I despise illegals there are many deadbeat Americans who don't pay their medical bills.

[gtownspur]

second that

[xrayzebra]

While I despise illegals there are many deadbeat Americans who don't pay their medical bills.

Must not be homeowners. Every time I look at the tax bill from
Bexar county....oh never mind. They even have an appointment system
for the illegals and said they will never turn one away, no matter what
the law. But, I still have to pay the taxes to support them. :depressed

[A-Train]

Someone's gotta pay for the social services the illegals receive. If they are paid in $ then they're not paying into programs such as SS and Medicare. I'm not opposed to anyone moving to this country and being willing to work a shit job for low pay, but who's going to pay for the social services and benefits they receive? Between SS, Medicare, public schools, hospitals, etc...you are looking at a rather significant amount of public $. The immigration process needs some kind of rationalization at this point. That means taxing what the current illegals make and normalizing their status. That also means tougher enforcement of payroll taxes on employers. Even after paying taxes the average illegal is still far better off than if they hadn't crossed the border.

In general, do I want to be taxed to pay for someone's kids to be educated and their healthcare and what not when their earnings aren't taxed? Fuck no. Some of you act as though you don't pay any tax.

[Yonivore]

Someone's gotta pay for the social services the illegals receive. If they are paid in $ then they're not paying into programs such as SS and Medicare. I'm not opposed to anyone moving to this country and being willing to work a shit job for low pay, but who's going to pay for the social services and benefits they receive? Between SS, Medicare, public schools, hospitals, etc...you are looking at a rather significant amount of public $. The immigration process needs some kind of rationalization at this point. That means taxing what the current illegals make and normalizing their status. That also means tougher enforcement of payroll taxes on employers. Even after paying taxes the average illegal is still far better off than if they hadn't crossed the border.

In general, do I want to be taxed to pay for someone's kids to be educated and their healthcare and what not when their earnings aren't taxed? Fuck no. Some of you act as though you don't pay any tax.
You raise a valid point. Just what do their unreported wages equal when you add in all the free "entitlement" crap they reap once they're here?

[Phenomanul]

MAtters what you mean? Illegal aliens work many jobs like ;gardening, and construction, etc, that pays under the table with cash. ANd the whole

"well the pay sales taxes too?" Is pretty stupid. Just because one pays sales taxes, which are state taxes, doesn't mean that they are contributing like other legal immigrants. Sales taxes mean squat. Hell even bums pay sales taxes for liquor.



You know why it's overpriced? Maybe because we have many uninsured illegals going clogging the hospitals with industrial accidents, as well as recieving free natal care because they want to have their children born here so that they can recieve benefits. WHo the hell foots the bill when an illegal doesnt pay up? WE do.




They the illegals are not our people, we should keep them out seeing how they are draining the social programs from our own people who actually need those oppurtunities.

WHy do you think that there is a 40% unemployment for African american males in inner cities with huge illegal alien populations? BEcuase they have to compete with someone who will work for 35-50% less.

WHy should we only give out amnesty and have open border policies towards mexicans? Would you advocate open borders for those of MID Eastern countries who have extremist ideologies and a totally different viewpoint of civilization. Would you open the flood gates to them, and risk having america change severely? I bet not. And we cannot support everyone in the world nor are we obliged to take them in.

WHy dont you allow hobos to enter your house and have you take care of them. Not just one, but maybe 4 or even 11 hobos? Is it possible to do so? NO. But if one is to be charitous one can only strive to keep his own home in good harmony first and foremost.

When we allow amnesty for illegal aliens, we are rewarding illegal behavior and are screwing our own brothers of our house who will have to compete with the demand for social services.



Dumb comparison. THe berlin wall seperated a country that was established before the wall was implemented.

Building a wall on our border is totally different.




I guess you're defending of the status quo , of having a bogus immigration agency who is supposed to handle illegal border crossing, and an artificial border, is a whole lot saintlier.

But this is where you are wrong.

Illegals come over here under dire circumstances. Having a sweepstakes like process that puts alot of illegals in danger over here rather than just making the process virtually impossible only ends up hurting those wishing to cross over here, and kills any incentive for the neighboring country to ever get better and care for its own citizens.


WHy should you support having people living here under a serf style system. If you are gonna have illegals over here, you might as well give them the right to vote. Why exploit them?

I'm not going to get into a 'social' argument with you simply because you refuse to see people as people unless they are tagged with adjectives first.

And you are completely misreading my points..... I'm not saying, nor clammoring for the status quo to remain as it is... The problem is massive, complex, and ridiculously difficult to solve with any one piece of legislation. If you can't see that... then building 'the wall' is probably the most cowardly, and dastardly option your camp can provide.

BTW you need to check your statistics.... in fact, I'm sure the Census Bureau is curious to know how you've obtained such fanciful facts (as they are difficult to come by).

Yes, illegals draw upon 'social' money from the government... but sadly that is all your proponents can see $$$$$$$$$$. And when you mention the costs of 'being born' as a drain on the social system while trying to refute an argument that medical costs are fine where they are... then your perspective really comes into focus. (On a side note: one of my reforms for helping improve our Healthcare system involves eliminating healthcare fraud. MIT developed a full-proof, non-intrusive, lie detector test which would allow insurance agencies to lower their premiums on account of eliminating fraudulent claims... if and when such a system were implemented in court. The system would also diminish vehicle insurance premiums, since many-a-times their high rates are affected by people claiming additional burdens not really there... BTW trust me when I say that this detector works... )


Migrant workers (illegal & legal) do the work that NO one wants to do... and despite your incessant discrediting that they don't pay taxes.. well sad to break your bubble but they do pay taxes. I'd be willing to bet that more than half of illegal workers work with a phony SSNs which force them to pay taxes that unlike you or me will never get to see again. It is those phony numbers which take their employers 'off-the-hook'... is it right? NO... but that is what is going on.

The only point you bring out which has any validity to it is that the problem must be solved... but that was hardly a no-brainer. The point is that workers should not be exploited nor subjugated to harsh working conditions.... A high influx of migrant workers only points to a supply and demand void that the US market fills with people who leave their homelands in search of a better future... Ironically your example of our very own urban based workforce which wouldn't typically move to Oregon to pick Strawberries and would rather take a government check to counter immigration is sad at best.

The most basic of social ills is laziness.... and unfortunately for your camp, that is one trait illegal workers don't have. Though I will concede that many times, 2nd and 3rd generation families become dependent on the government... though that is by no means the rule.

[xrayzebra]

Cite the figures. I see no compassion in you.

What in the world does compassion have to do with illegal acts by
these people? I feel for them, but let them stay home and make their
government do something for them, not the US of A.

[Phenomanul]

What in the world does compassion have to do with illegal acts by
these people? I feel for them, but let them stay home and make their
government do something for them, not the US of A.


Precisely the fact that you are labeling their attempts at improving their lifestyles as a felony act. That and the fact that you feel economically threatened by their arrival.... they are people.

[xrayzebra]

Precisely the fact that you are labeling their attempts at improving their lifestyles as a felony act. That and the fact that you feel economically threatened by their arrival.... they are people.

They are violating our law. I feel no threat, economically, or otherwise.
And who in the world said they weren't people? I am saying, let them
get their government to do something in their own
country. Do not depend on us to bail them out of their situation.

[gtownspur]

I'm not going to get into a 'social' argument with you simply because you refuse to see people as people unless they are tagged with adjectives first.

And you are completely misreading my points..... I'm not saying, nor clammoring for the status quo to remain as it is... The problem is massive, complex, and ridiculously difficult to solve with any one piece of legislation. If you can't see that... then building 'the wall' is probably the most cowardly, and dastardly option your camp can provide.

BTW you need to check your statistics.... in fact, I'm sure the Census Bureau is curious to know how you've obtained such fanciful facts (as they are difficult to come by).

Yes, illegals draw upon 'social' money from the government... but sadly that is all your proponents can see $$$$$$$$$$. And when you mention the costs of 'being born' as a drain on the social system while trying to refute an argument that medical costs are fine where they are... then your perspective really comes into focus. (On a side note: one of my reforms for helping improve our Healthcare system involves eliminating healthcare fraud. MIT developed a full-proof, non-intrusive, lie detector test which would allow insurance agencies to lower their premiums on account of eliminating fraudulent claims... if and when such a system were implemented in court. The system would also diminish vehicle insurance premiums, since many-a-times their high rates are affected by people claiming additional burdens not really there... BTW trust me when I say that this detector works... )


Migrant workers (illegal & legal) do the work that NO one wants to do... and despite your incessant discrediting that they don't pay taxes.. well sad to break your bubble but they do pay taxes. I'd be willing to bet that more than half of illegal workers work with a phony SSNs which force them to pay taxes that unlike you or me will never get to see again. It is those phony numbers which take their employers 'off-the-hook'... is it right? NO... but that is what is going on.

The only point you bring out which has any validity to it is that the problem must be solved... but that was hardly a no-brainer. The point is that workers should not be exploited nor subjugated to harsh working conditions.... A high influx of migrant workers only points to a supply and demand void that the US market fills with people who leave their homelands in search of a better future... Ironically your example of our very own urban based workforce which wouldn't typically move to Oregon to pick Strawberries and would rather take a government check to counter immigration is sad at best.

The most basic of social ills is laziness.... and unfortunately for your camp, that is one trait illegal workers don't have. Though I will concede that many times, 2nd and 3rd generation families become dependent on the government... though that is by no means the rule.


It is lazy on your intellect to tag your argument superior to mine becuase you equate citizenship to anything with a beating heart sans the being born in the US part.


Even though i have acknowledged that they're humans, does not make me a monster because i wish to prevent a constant flow of unchecked illegals come into this country. Not all who cross here are saints. Some are criminals and some dont contribute by ending up in gangs along Cali and Texas. ALot of the crime in the southwest has had to do with large illegal immigration populations.

Everheard of the MExican Mafia gang, almost all of them are illegal aliens, and they are the majority in most prisons down here.

IF we were to put up a wall, then God strike us all with lightning for wanting to secure our border. I guess being a Good Samaritan goes far beyond helping our own. Not to ignore the fact that we already lead the world in aid. BUt now we're supposed to adopt masses of peoples.

Let me ask you something? If these were palestinians and not mexicans, would you still stand where you are?

Is Israel sinful for putting up a wall, and yet in the bible God instructed The prophets and Nehemiah to build walls for protection.

Now i'm not advocating mandatory christian prayers at 3 am facing the east every day in the same sentence. But if you are going to be using emotional pseudo morality to trump logic and reasoning, then i might as well use some of your own medicine.

Besides, why the hell do we have borders? why have laws for immigrations.

You cannot say you are going to toughen on immigration and fix it, when your actions and words only encourage it.


Do many of these people deserve to come here to get a better life? Ofcourse!

But do they deserve more consideration than perhaps even more dire and desperate people of third world nations becuase your ethnicity happens to be mexican? Heck no!!

Let's make coming into this country fair to start with.

LEt's start enforcing the border and immi laws.

LEt's make the naturalization and immigration process easier to placate the need for buisinesses to use cheap labor.

But then theres the rub. Once they become citizens, then they too deserve the same benefits as us. ANd then there lies the problem.

IF it wasnt for cheap labor and exploitation, we would have solved this problem aeons ago. But people like you have been suckered into this whole "lets be charitable and allow for desperate illegals to be exploited...hell it's better than their shack nation,,and consequences be damned"

[xrayzebra]

Cite the figures. I see no compassion in you.

Read the following for some of the facts. And show a little
compassion for the American worker, okay!


U.S. workers and taxpayers pay heavy price for illegal immigration

By Phyllis Schlafly

Apr 24, 2006

Illegal immigrants in this country are threatening a massive boycott on May 1, purportedly to demonstrate they are so essential that the U.S. economy would shut down without their labor. On the contrary, such a boycott will expose the lie expressed by President George W. Bush in Cancun, Mexico, that they are "doing work that Americans will not do."

According to the Pew Hispanic Center, illegal immigrants make up less than 5 percent of the U.S. labor force. If every one of the 20 million illegal aliens in our country plays hooky from his job on May 1, the overwhelming majority of those same types of jobs will be worked by millions of U.S. citizens.

All over America, U.S. citizens will flip hamburgers in fast-food shops, wash dishes in restaurants, change sheets in hotels, mow lawns, trim shrubs, pick produce, drive taxis, replace roofs on houses, and do all kinds of construction work. Americans are quite willing to work unpleasant, menial, tiresome and risky jobs, but not for Third World wages.

An employment service in Mobile, Ala., recently received an "urgent request" to fill 270 job openings from contractors who were hired to rebuild and clear areas of Alabama devastated by Hurricane Katrina. The agency immediately sent 70 laborers and construction workers to three job sites.

After two weeks on the job, the men were fired by employers who told them "the Mexicans had arrived" and were willing to work for lower wages. The U.S. citizens had been promised $10 an hour, but the employers preferred Mexicans who would work for less. Employment agency manager Linda Swope told The Washington Times: "When they told the guys they would not be needed, they actually cried ... and we cried with them. This is a shame."

Swope said that employment agencies throughout Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi all face similar problems because an estimated 30,000 men from Mexico and Central and South America, many in crowded buses and trucks, came into those three states after Hurricane Katrina, willing to work for less than whatever was paid to U.S. citizens.

Meanwhile, President Bush signed the Katrina Emergency Assistance Act extending for 13 weeks the unemployment benefits to U.S. citizens displaced by Katrina. Thus employers get the benefit of cheap foreign labor while you and I provide taxpayer handouts to workers whom the government allowed to be displaced from the jobs they were eager to take.

There is no penalty on employers who replace U.S. citizens with illegal immigrants at lower pay. Homeland Security even announced it has suspended the sanctioning of employers who hire illegal immigrants, and President Bush suspended the Davis-Bacon Act, which requires local contractors to pay "prevailing" wages.

A study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research reported that the surge of immigration in the 1980s and 1990s lowered the wages of our own high school dropouts by 8.2 percent. The surge has accelerated since that report was issued. The Congressional Budget Office reported that 60 percent of Mexican and Central American workers in the United States in 2004 lacked a high school diploma.

The Kennedy-McCain-Bush guest worker plan would import more uneducated, unskilled workers, and thereby deny our own high school dropouts (of whom we have too many) the opportunity to get started in building their lives in the labor force. U.S. citizens are threatened that the cost of lettuce will rise precipitously if we don't continue to import Mexican agricultural workers. But a farm worker gets only 6 or 7 cents out of a $1 head of lettuce, so even if the pay doubles, consumers would hardly notice the difference.

On the other hand, the costs taxpayers are forced to pay for social benefits for low-paid workers are astronomical. The National Research Council reports that an immigrant to the United States without a high-school diploma consumes $89,000 more in government services than he pays in taxes during his lifetime.

Low-paid illegal immigrants obviously pay very little taxes, but they cash in on all sorts of benefits paid by other taxpayers, such as schooling for their children, emergency health care, housing subsidies, Earned Income Tax Credit and law enforcement. If the 20 million illegal immigrants are legalized, they will also become eligible for Medicaid, and that's a real break-the-bank prospect.

These figures don't even count the rapidly growing underground economy, in which millions of illegal immigrants are paid off the books in cash. That enables both employer and employee to avoid paying taxes, and enables employers to avoid paying workers' compensation, unemployment compensation, and assorted other taxes.

If the Internal Revenue Service collected all the taxes that should be paid by the underground economy, our current budget deficit would disappear overnight, according to a Bear Stearns study released in 2005. The Americans who pay taxes are giving a free ride to those who are not paying taxes, and a 7-cent increase in the price of lettuce should not be on our worry list.

Phyllis Schlafly is the President and Founder of the Eagle Forum.

Copyright © 2006 Copley News Service

Find this story at: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/phyllisschlafly/2006/04/24/194910.html

[La Migra]

Amnesty is not an option and how anyone can support this President on this is beyond me.

[smeagol]

Amnesty is not an option and how anyone can support this President on this is beyond me.
:rolleyes

Multiple personalities can be funny at times, but you sir are annoying to say the least.

[La Migra]

:rolleyes

Multiple personalities can be funny at times, but you sir are annoying to say the least.

What's annoying is when somebody assumes they know what they are talking about. :rolleyes

I made the point that Amnesty is not acceptable and I don't support the President on this issue. Sorry if stating my opinion is annoying to you. Get a life.

[NASCARdad]

Amnesty is not an option and how anyone can support this President on this is beyond me.

I agree. Bush is losing support amongst staunch conservatives on this issue and I'm sure that is annoying as hell to him. He needs to step up to the plate on this.

[Extra Stout]

I agree. Bush is losing support amongst staunch conservatives on this issue and I'm sure that is annoying as hell to him. He needs to step up to the plate on this.
We're learning that in Washington, big business is the only voice that matters. Ordinary people have no say.

Big business wants cheap labor. The people who run big business don't suffer from illegal immigration. They see only the gains from reduced cost and higher productivity. Their kids go to private schools that don't get overcrowded. They go to their own private hospitals that turn away immigrants who try to go to the emergency room. They live in areas where their taxes don't have to subsidize the burden of migrant laborers on social services. Their neighborhoods have gated entrances so they can control who comes in and out, and only have to see undocumented workers when they come to clean their houses and do their landscaping.

They get to pay illegals peanut wages, and if the illegals complain about anything, they have no rights, so the company can have them deported.

So they get their cheap labor, they get compliant workers, and they can foist all the costs and problems upon the rest of us. And since they control both parties in Washington, they can keep the status quo, no matter how upset voters get, because if we vote for the alternative, the new boss is the same as the old boss.

That's our American republic.

[Yonivore]

I agree. Bush is losing support amongst staunch conservatives on this issue and I'm sure that is annoying as hell to him. He needs to step up to the plate on this.
You think any of these staunch conservatives are going to vote Democrat next election? They may be mad at the President but, I doubt they'd ever get mad enough to vote for a Democrat who, more than likely, agrees with the parts of the Bush plan that made them mad in the first place.

It shows you this though, the President acts on principal and not on what he thinks will make him popular with the party. I don't agree with him on much of the immigration issue but I'll be damned if I'll ever believe John Kerry, Al Gore, or Howard Dean would do any better.

And there lies the fallacy in all the liberal cheering over the President's lagging poll numbers. Sure, it shows his base isn't all that happy with him but, that doesn't mean you can jump to the conclusion they're going to switch parties over it.

[xrayzebra]

You think any of these staunch conservatives are going to vote Democrat next election? They may be mad at the President but, I doubt they'd ever get mad enough to vote for a Democrat who, more than likely, agrees with the parts of the Bush plan that made them mad in the first place.

It shows you this though, the President acts on principal and not on what he thinks will make him popular with the party. I don't agree with him on much of the immigration issue but I'll be damned if I'll ever believe John Kerry, Al Gore, or Howard Dean would do any better.

And there lies the fallacy in all the liberal cheering over the President's lagging poll numbers. Sure, it shows his base isn't all that happy with him but, that doesn't mean you can jump to the conclusion they're going to switch parties over it.

You are so right. Bush ratings are low, but Congress ratings are even
lower. The dimm-o-craps have do-diddly-squat on their side. And
even Mexico recognizes they have a problem by telling everyone to
cool it, don't do anything 1 May. Bush has always had that Lib streak
just like his Father. But I voted for him as Governor and President cause
I don't want a out and out Lib. Amnesty if granted by the government
will come back to haunt them all.

[Phenomanul]

It is lazy on your intellect to tag your argument superior to mine becuase you equate citizenship to anything with a beating heart sans the being born in the US part.


Even though i have acknowledged that they're humans, does not make me a monster because i wish to prevent a constant flow of unchecked illegals come into this country. Not all who cross here are saints. Some are criminals and some dont contribute by ending up in gangs along Cali and Texas. ALot of the crime in the southwest has had to do with large illegal immigration populations.

Everheard of the MExican Mafia gang, almost all of them are illegal aliens, and they are the majority in most prisons down here.

IF we were to put up a wall, then God strike us all with lightning for wanting to secure our border. I guess being a Good Samaritan goes far beyond helping our own. Not to ignore the fact that we already lead the world in aid. BUt now we're supposed to adopt masses of peoples.

Let me ask you something? If these were palestinians and not mexicans, would you still stand where you are?

Is Israel sinful for putting up a wall, and yet in the bible God instructed The prophets and Nehemiah to build walls for protection.

Now i'm not advocating mandatory christian prayers at 3 am facing the east every day in the same sentence. But if you are going to be using emotional pseudo morality to trump logic and reasoning, then i might as well use some of your own medicine.

Besides, why the hell do we have borders? why have laws for immigrations.

You cannot say you are going to toughen on immigration and fix it, when your actions and words only encourage it.


Do many of these people deserve to come here to get a better life? Ofcourse!

But do they deserve more consideration than perhaps even more dire and desperate people of third world nations becuase your ethnicity happens to be mexican? Heck no!!

Let's make coming into this country fair to start with.

LEt's start enforcing the border and immi laws.

LEt's make the naturalization and immigration process easier to placate the need for buisinesses to use cheap labor.

But then theres the rub. Once they become citizens, then they too deserve the same benefits as us. ANd then there lies the problem.

IF it wasnt for cheap labor and exploitation, we would have solved this problem aeons ago. But people like you have been suckered into this whole "lets be charitable and allow for desperate illegals to be exploited...hell it's better than their shack nation,,and consequences be damned"

Listen buddy.

Illegal immigration needs to be curbed.... It MUST be regulated... i.e. enforced. The problem needs to be addressed. Human exploitation needs to be abolished while trying to balance and meet the demand for unskilled/laborious work.

If you haven't understood that from my posts, then that is your problem.

My problem with your position is that you are basing too much of your argument on the assumption that many the migrant workers are criminals... which is not only inflammatory but incorrect. This supposition hurts any other point you try to make even if and while they are valid concerns. Again, your severely skewed perspective is negating your other arguments from coming out as unbiased views... to the point where hearing 'Let's build a wall' is coming off as 'racial' moreso than the 'security-issue' cover-up you are trying to base it on....

I don't recall Timothy McVeigh being of Mexican descent... or for that matter any of the terrorists.

All the other ifs... and Palestinian references in your post are deemed irrelevant in this light...

Again. I'm not clamoring for the mass deportation of illegal immigrants or for their amnesty.... neither is a pratical option.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Dumbya's approval ratings could be at 90% and I still wouldn't vote for no repugnant. I believe them as far as I could throw Tom Delay's lying ass.
Yoniwhore is just pissed because his libertarian party ain't got a chance in hell of ever winning any election.

[gtownspur]

Listen buddy.

Illegal immigration needs to be curbed.... It MUST be regulated... i.e. enforced. The problem needs to be addressed. Human exploitation needs to be abolished while trying to balance and meet the demand for unskilled/laborious work.

If you haven't understood that from my posts, then that is your problem.

My problem with your position is that you are basing too much of your argument on the assumption that many the migrant workers are criminals... which is not only inflammatory but incorrect. This supposition hurts any other point you try to make even if and while they are valid concerns. Again, your severely skewed perspective is negating your other arguments from coming out as unbiased views... to the point where hearing 'Let's build a wall' is coming off as 'racial' moreso than the 'security-issue' cover-up you are trying to base it on....

I don't recall Timothy McVeigh being of Mexican descent... or for that matter any of the terrorists.

All the other ifs... and Palestinian references in your post are deemed irrelevant in this light...

Again. I'm not clamoring for the mass deportation of illegal immigrants or for their amnesty.... neither is a pratical option.


Spare me the listen buddy speach. My point is not that most illegal immi's are criminals, but that crime is a symptom of having lax rules on immigration.

WHen have i said that most illegals are criminals? Please stop using emotional hyperbole.

Building a wall is not racist, that is the most laziest assumption ever. Berlin had a wall, did that mean that they were racist? :lol , see how utterly stupid that sounds.

Illegal immigration needs to be outlawed more than regulated. It's legal immigration that needs to be controlled in a fair manner, not the other way around as you put it.

Besides you offer no solution except blanket statements, and jingoistic phrases.


I'd like to hear from you a more comprehensive way of dealing with the problem.

[Phenomanul]

Spare me the listen buddy speach. My point is not that most illegal immi's are criminals, but that crime is a symptom of having lax rules on immigration.

WHen have i said that most illegals are criminals? Please stop using emotional hyperbole.

Building a wall is not racist, that is the most laziest assumption ever. Berlin had a wall, did that mean that they were racist? :lol , see how utterly stupid that sounds.

Illegal immigration needs to be outlawed more than regulated. It's legal immigration that needs to be controlled in a fair manner, not the other way around as you put it.

Besides you offer no solution except blanket statements, and jingoistic phrases.


I'd like to hear from you a more comprehensive way of dealing with the problem.

Spending money to build a wall that would cost billions is a real genius idea....

:rolleyes

Whatever... I'm done with you.

[01Snake]

Spending money to build a wall that would cost billions is a real genius idea....

:rolleyes

Whatever... I'm done with you.


You're right, lets just say screw it and let them all in.
:rolleyes

[Phenomanul]

You're right, lets just say screw it and let them all in.
:rolleyes

That's not what I said.... but thanks for twisting my message.

[gtownspur]

Spending money to build a wall that would cost billions is a real genius idea....

:rolleyes

Whatever... I'm done with you.


ALot better than tossing abacadabra words around like "we need to regulate", and "enforcement" and expecting illegal immigration to be solved like BEwitched.

[Phenomanul]

ALot better than tossing abacadabra words around like "we need to regulate", and "enforcement" and expecting illegal immigration to be solved like BEwitched.


That just means I recognize that there is a problem (you were assuming that I was advocating for amnesty to be granted to all illegals in this country -- which is an entirely different premise altogether.... And I had to write down in simple english that this was not the case....)

Now you throw the words back at me assuming 1) that I have somehow claimed to know what the best solution is, and 2) that my concern/compassion for immigration plight somehow outweighs and blinds my feelings toward pratical immigration policies....

ONE thing I have claimed.... Building a wall would be a joke.

Let me break it down for you...

Building a wall would cost billions of dollars of taxpayer money....
By the time said project cancelled out the money being taken out of social funds...
Guess what? Immigrants would have figured out how to get across the wall... or how to break that system...
In the end it would be a ridiculous waste of capital... and it would be a mockery to diplomacy.

[gtownspur]

Nobody said a wall alone would curb immigration, but a wall and a healthy number of border patrol could. You dont think a wall would actually make it harder? That's hysterical.

ANd about diplomacy, Mexico clearly has its own corrupt govt to worry about. There's no point in being diplomatic with them on this issue seeing how it benefits them to keep the status qou.

And all the complaining about social funds being tampered, illegals already have their money in that jar.

[word]

This may have already been answered somewhere but, I missed it.

1) Why do some Mexicans immigrate illegally while other Mexicans adhere to the formal, legal, and proscribed process for gaining entry, securing visas, or becoming a naturalized citizen of the United States.

2) How can you advocate granting citizenship en-masse without considering there are criminals that have crossed the border to do this country harm? 15,000 illegal Mexican aliens (who committed crimes other than just being here illegally) sit in California prisons now. There is evidence the drug cartels and Mexican gangs are starting to communicate and cooperate with terrorist organizations.

Just curious how the pro-amnesty crowd feels on these two questions.

One word. Sicilian mafia. Actually that's two but ...what else is new ? A certain % of immigrants are gonna be dirt bags. Just like a certain % of PEOPLE are gonna be dirt bags. There's also a bunch of dirt bags from eastern Europe that have immigrated in lately. Just like there a bunch of criminals from Ireland that immigrated in during the 1800's. Hell Australia was built by criminals.

What always gets me about immigration is somehow we feel this need that we HAVE to allow it or that we need it. Ever since the Frogs gave us that statue we somehow feel it's something we HAVE to do. Now 50% of people in NYC were not born in the US. 50% !!!

Some people actually think allowing immigration, legal or illegal, is part of our constitution. It's not. A nation of immigrants, yes, but that was then, this is now. Again, the Irish immigrants of the 1860's got off the boat and were sent off to fight the civil war IMMEDIATLEY, often times getting off the boat from Ireland and put right back on a boat to Charleston the same fockin' day.

I have no problem with immigration per se and there is nothing in the US Constitution that says America has to be majority white European or majority any other race. However, turning a blind eye to the law simply to gain political power is not right either.