Spurs' sacred jersey numbers

[Solid D]

We all know that 00, 13, 44 and 50 hang from the rafters in the SBC Center.

Two years ago, a stink was raised when the Spurs tried to give number 6 to Gino and Don Harris raised a big, rotten stink over giving away "AJ's" number.

What numbers are "sacred" and should not be handed out to new additions to the roster, no matter how good the player may be and the legacy that follows them?

Should the Spurs continue to avoid giving out 6 or 32? Are any other numbers untouchable?

(Please do not say Stephen Jackson's number 3 in sacred, Jack-stalkers)

[Marcus Bryant]

6
32

Most definitely retire those.

[Jimcs50]

21, 6 and 32.

[Solid D]

Trivia: What number did AJ wear besides 6 while he was a Spur?

[Marcus Bryant]

15

[Solid D]

That's right. AJ wore number 15 his first two seasons in Seattle and also with Denver. When AJ came to SA, 91-92 season, AJ spent part of that season with SA and wore 15.

[Solid D]

Actually, I sort of expected Whottt to come in and suggest 2! :hat

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Actually, I sort of expected Whottt to come in and suggest 2! :hat

The day is young.

[PimpScourge]

That's right. AJ wore number 15 his first two seasons in Seattle and also with Denver. When AJ came to SA, 91-92 season, AJ spent part of that season with SA and wore 15.

wasn't that vinny's number?

I'd retire TC's number (34?). He had a great career in SA.

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ had it first.

[samikeyp]

AJ had it then he left, Vinny came in grabbed it, AJ came back and got 6 1+5=6.

to me, 21, 6, 32, 34(Mitchell and Cummings), and 53.

[2pac]

Idiotic - Cummings didnt have a great career in SA - he had a few good years in SA.

I think retiring numbers just to retire them is poor. Elliott and AJ were staples in SA, and very popular, but I dont think either were the type of player to retire their number. Elliott was an all-star maybe twice? AJ never was. AJ was a great role player, and was very important to the community, but I dont think he deserves to have his number retired. He got his treat when we paid him in his last season with us.

[Marcus Bryant]

This isn't the Basketball HOF. It is about those players who had a long term impact on the franchise. I forget where AJ stands on the franchise list for all-time total assists but I'm sure he is at or near the top. He was clearly an important figure for the Spurs in the 1990s, as was Elliott.

Cummings did not have the longevity with the Spurs that AJ and Elliott did to warrant such a distinction.

[ducks]

neither on of those players deserve it

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Wny not AJ and Sean, Ducks?

[picnroll]

AJ got his butt kicked on a regular basis by KJ, Hardaway, Stockton, Payton and for that he should go down in Spurs' lore.

You don't have to be an hall of fame but it would be nice if you were a little above average.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs have retired more than just Gervin and DRob's numbers. Thus, HOF membership or likely HOF membership is not the standard to apply here.

AJ was certainly one of the franchise's all-time assist men, if not the top. To claim that he was an average point guard is absurd.

[satx]

The Tim Derk/Coyote's number, the sooner the better.

Talk about "having an impact on the Franchise" !!

[picnroll]

Hanging AJ's number is a reflection of how patheticly the PG position has been filled over the years for the Spurs. Ninety percent of the NBA franchises can lay claim to a far superior PG in their history. Hell some can lay claim to three or four better ones. Hopefully will have a PG jersey worthy of hanging from the rafters one day, no. 9.

And Moore was a sentimetal choice because of a career sadly cut short. But given time he may have fufilled the play deserving the honor.

Like I said I remember AJ most for getting his ass kicked by the Hardaways, Stocktons and Kevin Johnsons as the Spurs were prematurely knocked out of the playoffs.

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ was one of the top point guards in the league in the 1990s.

DRob got his ass handed to him in the playoffs by Barkley, Malone and Hakeem. Should his number be retired?

[2pac]

Defensively, Avery was a liability. Offensively, he was a decent distributor and handler, but he wasn't ever near all-star status. He had over 8APG twice in his career (and started 600 games in his career.)

Career:
25 MPG
5.5 APG
8.4 PPG
1 SPG

He was a very good role player. In our good years, he was our weakest link on offense and defense.

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ's stats (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/avery_johnson/index.html?nav=page)

For such an awful role player he certainly produced with the Spurs from 1994-2000 when he was the starting point. Career stats are not going to reflect what he was when he was with the Spurs.

Nevermind being the team leader and the most competitive Spur.

[picnroll]

AJ was one of the top point guards in the league in the 1990s.
:drunkWell without Avery Robinson never could have gotten as many blocks as he did. I'll give him that.

[Solid D]

Half of the retired jerseys belonged to PGs.

True, Moore's career was cut short, as was Si's with his knee problems.

Moore was the all-time Spurs career assist leader with 3,865 and only Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas recorded more assists than Moore did from 1981-1985.

[picnroll]

A retired number should be for outstanding play and being a good community person. Otherwise you cheapen the award. There's a tendency to err on the community side (Gervin though he's become a great spokesperson for the Spurs, SA and the NBA). Robertson you could make a case on play but he blew it on the community side. AJ was a nice guy, good community person, a team leader as the PG should be but he was no where close to an outstanding player. Putting up jersey's of mediocre players is like saying "hey we're a mediocre franchise and this is the best we can do".

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ was certainly an outstanding point guard in his career as a Spur and in addition to that he was the team leader throughout the mid to late 1990s and including the championship run. He was also one of the more popular Spurs ever.

Again, this is a friggin' franchise distinction, not the HOF.

[Solid D]

Tom Copa was a fan favorite. :hat

[picnroll]

The Spurs pretty obviously think otherwise. I doubt it was purely an oversight that they were ready to give Manu 6. Time and the memories of AJ will fade except for a few hardcore. Someday someone else wil wear no. 6 and no. 20 will likley go in the rafters.

[Marcus Bryant]

True SD, but it's the total package.

[Solid D]

I was jesting. Tom Copa #30 was cool, though.

[2pac]

AJ was certainly an outstanding point guard in his career as a Spur and in addition to that he was the team leader throughout the mid to late 1990s and including the championship run. He was also one of the more popular Spurs ever.

Again, this is a friggin' franchise distinction, not the HOF.

AJ was never an outstanding PG. He was poor defensively. He was top 5 in APG exactly once. He never scored 14PPG. He could never shoot threes. He was never considered for the all-star team - so he was never top 2-3 PGs in his conference.

[picnroll]

A list of retired jerseys. How many players had their numbers retired that didn't get a whiff of an all-star game? Players suffering untimely deaths like Sealy and Phills excluded.

http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-retired-numbers.shtml

[Marcus Bryant]

So AJ wasn't an All-NBA team member or an all-NBA defensive team member. He was definitely top 10 in assists in the mid to late 1990s for a number of seasons. How about total assists for a PG in the 1990s?

Also, where does he rank on the Spurs' all-time list?

[timvp]

AJ built the foundation that is Spurs Basketball. He was the heart and soul of the team in the '90s. He was a key part to the first championship in franchise history. In that championship, he was as much a coach as Gregg Popovich.

To say that he doesn't deserve to have number retired is short-sighted.

[Marcus Bryant]

Silas' stats (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SILASJA01)
Moore's stats (http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MOOREJO01)
AJ's stats (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/avery_johnson/index.html?nav=page)

[samikeyp]

There is no set criteria for retired numbers. The most common denominator is what kind of impact that player had on the fans of that team. AJ will never be confused with Magic Johnson as far statistics but his value to the franchise is immeasurable. He gave 100% on and off the court. If you look at pure stats, no, AJ should not have his number retired. However, stats alone are not why numbers are retired.

[ShoogarBear]

My standards are high. If it was up to me, only 44, 13, and 50 would be retired.

And 13 would be borderline.

And there's no bigger Si fan than me.

Given that Moore's number is retired, though, it's hard to argue against AJ and Sean.

[Spurminator]

A couple of years ago on another forum, I posted a list of all of the retired jerseys in the NBA, along with Efficiency numbers. I then compared AJ and Sean's numbers to the list and found that both of them would fall into the bottom ten.

Obviously numbers don't tell the whole story, and I really don't have an opinion on either players as far as retiring their numbers... but I do think that, particularly with the success the Spurs are likely to enjoy over the next ten years, there are going to be a LOT of players as worthy or more worthy than AJ and Sean of having their numbers hang, and I would not want to cheapen the honor by doing it for all of our above average starters.

[timvp]

San Antonio Spurs fans don't realize how successful this franchise has been. I believe only the Lakers and Celtics have a higher NBA winning percentage (that was a couple years ago, the Spurs may have moved up the list). With that must success, you are going to have a lot of retired jersies. Adding 6, 32, 21, 9 and 20 for multiple championship teams isn't asking too much.

Think big, Spurs fans.

[Mark in Austin]

AJ got his butt kicked on a regular basis by KJ, Hardaway, Stockton, Payton and for that he should go down in Spurs' lore.



And yet there's a few statistics:

Total # of rings for:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1

# Of Championship - winning shots:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1

[pooh]

I agree with Shoog that for now it should only be 50,44,00 and 13. When Duncan retires then put his up, and that's it for awhile.

[ShoogarBear]

Spurs are still at #3 all-time winning percentage.

If you're going to compare them to the Celtics and Lakers, then you need to use the same criteria as those teams to get your number retired: a) HoF numbers, or b) contributed significantly to championships, to have your number retired.

(or you can do it how Reggie Lewis did . . . but most would prefer not.)

[timvp]

The Lakers and Celtics have over 30 jersies retired. The Spurs have four.

I have an idea. Why don't we revoke 13 and 00 and then only hang 44, 50 and 21. It's not like the Spurs are the third winningest franchise in the sport's history or anything.

:shootme

[ShoogarBear]

The Lakers and Celtics have 30 NBA championships.

The Spurs have 2.

The ratio seems about right.

[timvp]

How many championships do the Suns have? They have 8 retired jersies.


P.S.

How many championships do the Jazz have?

[Solid D]

NBA All-Stars as a San Antonio Spur
Tim Duncan (6)
David Robinson (10)
Sean Elliott (2)
Alvin Robertson (3)
Artis Gilmore (2)
George Gervin (9)
Larry Kenon (2)

ABA Spurs
George Gervin (2)
Larry Kenon (1)
James Silas (2)
Billy Paultz (1)
Swen Nater (2)
Rich Jones (1)

[picnroll]

And yet there's a few statistics:

Total # of rings for:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1

# Of Championship - winning shots:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1
But it sure wasn't from AJ keeping them from those rings and shots.

[jalbre6]

I'm cool with hanging AJ's jersey up in the rafters. He's still a fan fave in SA and a good citizen, stuff the organization thinks highly of. Let him finish whatever the hell he's doing for the Mavs this season and have a big celebration. They can invite Cedric the Entertainer to the ceremony and have him do his AJ impersonation.

Why does it matter that the player be an all-star to have a jersey retired? Other teams honor fans, announcers, and front office personnel. The Spurs can honor the guy who ran the point on its' first championship team and hit the series-clinching jumper however they see fit.

[2pac]

And yet there's a few statistics:

Total # of rings for:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1

# Of Championship - winning shots:

KJ/Hardaway/Stockton/Payton : 0

AJ: 1

Kurt Rambis had more rings than Barkley - does that mean he was a better player?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

What about Edgar Jones? Shouldn't his number be retired???

[ShoogarBear]

How many championships do the Suns have? They have 8 retired jersies.


P.S.

How many championships do the Jazz have?

Exactly. On some teams retired numbers' roster is a joke.
Like the Blazers, with their one title, have retired the hallowed names of Dave Twardzik, Larry Steele, and Lloyd Neal. This is what I'd like the Spurs to avoid.

The Jazz have retired Pete Maravich (you gonna argue that one?), Darrell Griffith (Rookie of the Year and was the all-time leading Jazz scorer until Malone/Stockton), and Mark Eaton (most overrated defensive player of all time, if you ask me, but he's got the awards). Since I don't see Jeff Malone or Jeff Hornacek, the Jazz are actually being quite selective.

Finally, if you're going to say AJ and Sean should definitely have their numbers retired (which is a strong argument since Moore got his), then I will say that Larry Kenon and Mike Mitchell should get theirs retired first.

[pooh]

They should really honor more of the older group of Spur players before putting in the recent crop. Ones like Olberding, Paultz, Gale, etc. But you can bet anything they'll put up a special banner for Pop when he finally steps down (soon I hope). If they do, the old spurs fans should bitch because if they do that, they should put up ones for Doug Moe and Stan Albeck.

[timvp]

Finally, if you're going to say AJ and Sean should definitely have their numbers retired (which is a strong argument since Moore got his), then I will say that Larry Kenon and Mike Mitchell should get theirs retired first.

Why? Given you've seen them play more than I have, but looking over their resume ... I just don't see it.

Kenon played only five seasons for the Spurs. He had impressive scoring averages but the team was averaging over 115 points per game. Translate his averages to today's game and he'd come back down to earth. Plus those five years he was on the Spurs, the team averaged less than 50 wins per season.

Mitchell was a nice player, but he was the main option on the worst teams in franchise history. His winning percentage while he was on the Spurs was way less the .500. If we retire his number, we might as well retire Dominique Wilkins #21 as well.

To get your numbers retired, you should have to be good to great player on a winning team. AJ and Elliott brought the city it's first championship and layed the foundation for the rest of the titles the Spurs win. Without those two, the Spurs never win in '99 ... and without that experience, the Spurs don't win in '03.

No one ever believed that little ol' San Antonio could win a championship. The town was too small, there was an NBA biased against former ABA teams, Robinson didn't want it enough, blah blah blah. AJ believed and his sole purpose was revolved around the team winning the championship. That's why he had the team practicing every summer. He forced the players to go Houston and workout the whole summer with him. He helped Pop learn how to coach a championship team. He didn't do all that for any reason other than he wanted to win a ring.

And he did.

[picnroll]

AJ was the weak link for all those frustrating years the Spurs got knocked out by Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, Houston. He was the turnstile that KJ, Hardaway, Stockton blew past while I banged my head on the wall.

The Spurs won in '99 because they had two guys among the twenty or so greatest post players of all time who were near prime. More than half the PGs in the league at the time could have taken the '99 Spurs to the championship and many of them done it better than AJ did.

AJ is the best argument I can think of for offering Parker a max contract. Otherwise Spurs run the risk of having Duncan spend the rest of his career with a PG like AJ.

[Mark in Austin]

No one ever believed that little ol' San Antonio could win a championship. The town was too small, there was an NBA biased against former ABA teams, Robinson didn't want it enough, blah blah blah. AJ believed and his sole purpose was revolved around the team winning the championship. That's why he had the team practicing every summer. He forced the players to go Houston and workout the whole summer with him. He helped Pop learn how to coach a championship team. He didn't do all that for any reason other than he wanted to win a ring.

And he did.


For all of you who still can't wrap their minds around the case for AJ's number being retired, keep read timvp's post over again a couple times. Maybe it will sink in eventually.

[Mark in Austin]

AJ was the weak link for all those frustrating years...More than half the PGs in the league at the time could have taken the '99 Spurs to the championship and many of them done it better than AJ did.


Well, the Spurs didn't have any of those other point guards. Those other point guards weren't exactly demanding to be traded to San Antonio, either. AJ was here - and it was his desire and fire that got them to a championship level.

Blaming past years playoff failures on AJ is overly simplistic, and you know it, picnroll .

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ was the weak link for all those frustrating years the Spurs got knocked out by Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, Houston.

Saint David gets no blame? Give me a f***ing break. If only DRob had half the heart and passion for the game that Avery Johnson did.

[Duff McCartney]

It's not like the Spurs are the third winningest franchise in the sport's history or anything.

I'd wager the majority of those wins have come since the beginning of the DRob era...and they'd probably be in 2nd place if they had a better PG than AJ.

[Marcus Bryant]

Maybe the Spurs would have won a title if they had a superstar who would show up in the playoffs for a change.

Oh wait, they drafted one in 1997.

[Duff McCartney]

Maybe the Spurs would have won a title if they had a superstar who would show up in the playoffs for a change.

My god you're an idiot.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh really? Perhaps you and your stuffed Coyote doll believe that DRob was some kind of big game player but in reality that was not the case.

Also, the thought of you referring to anyone else as an "idiot" is rich.

[Duff McCartney]

Oh really? Perhaps you and your stuffed Coyote doll believe that DRob was some kind of big game player but in reality that was not the case.

Yeah he sure wasn't...which is probably why AJ couldn't lead any other god damn team to anything in the playoffs.

[timvp]

He was the turnstile that KJ, Hardaway, Stockton blew past while I banged my head on the wall.

What games were you watching? AJ always held his own with Stockton in the playoffs. Penny Hardaway? WTF ... when did he ever matchup against him in the playoffs?

KJ ... um, did you watch the '97-98 playoffs? AJ dominated KJ, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash, including 30 points and 7 assists in the clinching game. For the series he averaged over 20 points per game against the best three point guards to ever play together.

Please check you facts. Don't let time blur your memory.

[Marcus Bryant]

Um, no one is claiming that AJ was a superstar.

[Duff McCartney]

The way some of you talk about this short shit you'd think he was the second coming of Mohammed, Allah, Buddah, and Jesus Christ all rolled into one and that it was because of him the Spurs won a championship.

[Marcus Bryant]

For Spurs basketball he was. Usually a team's most competitive player is their star (ie Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley) but the Spurs unforunately did not have that.

You must not have been paying attention back in the day.

[Mark in Austin]

...and that it was because of him the Spurs won a championship.


uh, yeah. That's exactly what we're saying.

[Duff McCartney]

Go take a shit Marcus...cause your eyes are brown cause you're so full of shit.

Avery was nowhere near the most competitive Spur. David Robinson carried that little worm on his back to the playoffs. Without David, AJ would have had nothing...and wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ha. Now I know you really weren't paying attention.

[timvp]

Duff, you are lacking clue on this subject.

[Mark in Austin]

no shit.

[samikeyp]

San Antonio Spurs fans don't realize how successful this franchise has been. I believe only the Lakers and Celtics have a higher NBA winning percentage (that was a couple years ago, the Spurs may have moved up the list). With that must success, you are going to have a lot of retired jersies. Adding 6, 32, 21, 9 and 20 for multiple championship teams isn't asking too much.

Think big, Spurs fans.


the brother's got a point. there are a few of us who understand the long history of success this franchise has enjoyed...and it looks to keep going for awhile. Why not reward those players who delivered on the court and made SA their home and were part of the community off the court. Stats do not tell the whole story on what a player was worth to a franchise.

[Admiral]

Since we already retired Moore's jersey, I think it's fine to retire AJ's and Elliott's as well. I would actually give Elliott the nod long before AJ, since Elliott was an All-Star a couple of times and averaged 20+ ppg, but AJ is fine as well since he was a staple at PG throughout the 90's.

Calling AJ "the heart and soul of the Spurs" is a bit of a stretch, Marcus and timvp. If it makes you feel better to assume that AJ made the Spurs go, so be it, but DRob was the overwhelming reason we were successful throughout the 90's. Marcus, you seem to enjoy saying that DRob wouldn't have any rings without Tim, but Tim wouldn't have any rings right now if it weren't for DRob either.

It's interesting to see how you've gone from almost never bashing DRob to bashing him on a regular basis, Marcus. Were you purposely waiting until he had been retired for awhile before criticizing him, or have you recently changed your mind about him? You're almost as bad as Iceman Cometh now.

[Marcus Bryant]

AJ was the heart and soul of that Spurs team in the 1990s. DRob was the most talented player, but that is different.

First and foremost, I am a Spurs fan. David Robinson had his flaws. I'm sure he'd be the first to admit them since there has only been one man ever who was perfect, and it wasn't DRob.

[spur219]

Manu was also suppose to wear #13 before. I remember him in Sports Illustrated with his Spurs jersey but it was #13. Why did he change it?

[Duff McCartney]

David Robinson had his flaws.

And AJ had his and the flaws AJ had were 3 times as much as the ones David had.

[Duff McCartney]

It's interesting to see how you've gone from almost never bashing DRob to bashing him on a regular basis, Marcus. Were you purposely waiting until he had been retired for awhile before criticizing him, or have you recently changed your mind about him?

Yeah he's done the same thing to Rasho as well.

[Marcus Bryant]

DRob's weakness was AJ's strength.

[samikeyp]

Manu was also suppose to wear #13 before. I remember him in Sports Illustrated with his Spurs jersey but it was #13. Why did he change it?

Because 13 is retired...James Silas.

Do you have a link to that pic?

[spurster]

HOF and retired numbers are weak in the NBA. Wasn't it the Suns owner that got into the HOF this year. What's up with that?

So using the preestablished standard of he hung aroung a long time, worked hard, put up ok numbers, helped get a title along the way, then sure, AJ and Sean.

[SPURS21]

So using the preestablished standard of he hung aroung a long time, worked hard, put up ok numbers, helped get a title along the way, then sure, AJ and Sean.

SA's first NBA title
AJ hit the winning shot
Remember the memorial day miracle?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

First and foremost, I am a Spurs fan. David Robinson had his flaws. I'm sure he'd be the first to admit them since there has only been one man ever who was perfect, and it wasn't DRob.-Marcus Bryant

I know exactly where you're going with this, Marcus, and I don't think this thread is necesarily the place to start comparing DRob to Michael Jordan.

We're talking about SPURS players here man, stick with the program.

[spur219]

[QUOTE]Because 13 is retired...James Silas.

Do you have a link to that pic?

No I don't have a link to that pic but I do remember seeing it. However It did slip my mind that 13 was in fact retired. But I am glad that he wears #20 because that was my number when I played in highschool.

[Phenomanul]

I know exactly where you're going with this, Marcus, and I don't think this thread is necesarily the place to start comparing DRob to Michael Jordan.

We're talking about SPURS players here man, stick with the program.


Are you sure he wasn't going to say Jesus?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Umm, ya think?

[Sequ's Alias]

Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott.

[Admiral]

AJ was the heart and soul of that Spurs team in the 1990s. DRob was the most talented player, but that is different.

First and foremost, I am a Spurs fan. David Robinson had his flaws. I'm sure he'd be the first to admit them since there has only been one man ever who was perfect, and it wasn't DRob.

Of course DRob had his flaws, and nobody is suggesting that his game was perfect. He never developed a go-to move, and he tended to appear aloof at times, especially early on. Despite that, he is still the best player to wear a Spurs uniform and was able to make the Spurs contenders despite having poor to average supporting casts.

Just about every "big game player" had at least one other star (and many times, future Hall of Famer) on his team. Jordan had Pippen (Hall of Famer, regarded by many as the second-best player in the game during his prime), plus Horace Grant (All-Star) and a host of other role players that were great at what they did (e.g., Kerr and Hodges shooting threes). Hakeem had Otis Thorpe (All-Star) one year and Clyde Drexler (Hall of Famer) the next, plus a future All-Star in Cassell plus very formidable role players (Horry, Maxwell, etc.). Shaq had Kobe (Hall of Famer), plus Fisher, Horry, etc. Magic had Kareem and Worthy, both Hall of Famers, plus Cooper and others. Bird had Parish and McHale, both Hall of Famers, plus Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, etc. David Robinson had Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman, plus other journeymen role players (often waived by their previous teams) who seemed to be unable to hit shots in the playoffs (Del Negro comes to mind). Elliott was a two-time All-Star whose game was inconsistent during the playoffs, and Rodman made the All-Star team two times at the most (neither of which occurred during his Spurs years) and couldn't be counted on (remember the ejections, flagrant fouls, and refusal to re-enter the game?). Yes, we all love AJ, and he was a warrior, but he was still no better than a 13 ppg/8 apg player during his best season. Vinny Del Negro wouldn't have started at shooting guard for most other teams in the league, and Charles Smith was injury-prone and couldn't be counted on when he was here. Anyone who is still confused needs to reread this paragraph until it makes sense.

Acting like DRob had a supporting cast anywhere close to the other greats of the 80's and 90's is ridiculous and you know it. In fact, David did much more than many of his contemporaries despite having less talent around him. Unfortunately for DRob, he was outplayed by Hakeem one year and every other accompishment in the postseason was nullified - even by some Spurs fans.

If you look back, DRob did play well in the postseason. I recall a couple of occasions where he was leading the playoffs in scoring - against Barkley and the Suns, I believe - before being eliminated. Yes, big game Charles, who has zero rings despite playing alongside much better players than DRob ever did (KJ, Majerle, Ceballos, etc. in Phoenix, and Hakeem and Drexler in Houston). DRob would've won a title with that kind of talent around him. Yet to you, Marcus, Sir Charles was much more of a "gamer" than DRob. :rolleyes

What about Karl Malone, another "warrior?" He had Stockton, one of the best PG's ever and sure Hall of Famer on his team. He also had Hornacek (All-Star) and some capable role players like Bryon Russell. He didn't win a title either. What gives? Were Barkley and Malone not big game players after all, or were their supporting casts just not good enough?

Answers, please. And let's leave DRob's character out of this, because my argument is not based on the person he is off the court and yours shouldn't be either.

[Das Texan]

if we are going to retire aj's number....


the a-train's 53 needs to be retired first.

[IcemanCometh]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/adg/cov150/DRT200/T200/t20009cjln1.jpg

[timvp]

Of course DRob had his flaws, and nobody is suggesting that his game was perfect. He never developed a go-to move, and he tended to appear aloof at times, especially early on. Despite that, he is still the best player to wear a Spurs uniform and was able to make the Spurs contenders despite having poor to average supporting casts.

Just about every "big game player" had at least one other star (and many times, future Hall of Famer) on his team. Jordan had Pippen (Hall of Famer, regarded by many as the second-best player in the game during his prime), plus Horace Grant (All-Star) and a host of other role players that were great at what they did (e.g., Kerr and Hodges shooting threes). Hakeem had Otis Thorpe (All-Star) one year and Clyde Drexler (Hall of Famer) the next, plus a future All-Star in Cassell plus very formidable role players (Horry, Maxwell, etc.). Shaq had Kobe (Hall of Famer), plus Fisher, Horry, etc. Magic had Kareem and Worthy, both Hall of Famers, plus Cooper and others. Bird had Parish and McHale, both Hall of Famers, plus Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, etc. David Robinson had Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman, plus other journeymen role players (often waived by their previous teams) who seemed to be unable to hit shots in the playoffs (Del Negro comes to mind). Elliott was a two-time All-Star whose game was inconsistent during the playoffs, and Rodman made the All-Star team two times at the most (neither of which occurred during his Spurs years) and couldn't be counted on (remember the ejections, flagrant fouls, and refusal to re-enter the game?). Yes, we all love AJ, and he was a warrior, but he was still no better than a 13 ppg/8 apg player during his best season. Vinny Del Negro wouldn't have started at shooting guard for most other teams in the league, and Charles Smith was injury-prone and couldn't be counted on when he was here. Anyone who is still confused needs to reread this paragraph until it makes sense.

Acting like DRob had a supporting cast anywhere close to the other greats of the 80's and 90's is ridiculous and you know it. In fact, David did much more than many of his contemporaries despite having less talent around him. Unfortunately for DRob, he was outplayed by Hakeem one year and every other accompishment in the postseason was nullified - even by some Spurs fans.

If you look back, DRob did play well in the postseason. I recall a couple of occasions where he was leading the playoffs in scoring - against Barkley and the Suns, I believe - before being eliminated. Yes, big game Charles, who has zero rings despite playing alongside much better players than DRob ever did (KJ, Majerle, Ceballos, etc. in Phoenix, and Hakeem and Drexler in Houston). DRob would've won a title with that kind of talent around him. Yet to you, Marcus, Sir Charles was much more of a "gamer" than DRob.

What about Karl Malone, another "warrior?" He had Stockton, one of the best PG's ever and sure Hall of Famer on his team. He also had Hornacek (All-Star) and some capable role players like Bryon Russell. He didn't win a title either. What gives? Were Barkley and Malone not big game players after all, or were their supporting casts just not good enough?

Answers, please. And let's leave DRob's character out of this, because my argument is not based on the person he is off the court and yours shouldn't be either.

I agree with everything you said. However, you can't tell me that AJ didn't have a major role in leading the Spurs to their first championship. On the court he played well in the playoffs and off the court he was the unquestioned leader who was in charge of keeping everyone focused on the task at hand, Robinson included.

That isn't debatable either.

[Marcus Bryant]

Wow, the forum novelist is back.

David Robinson had talent to play with when he was in San Antonio. I guess I imagined it when he played with Terry Cummings, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis, Dennis Rodman, Chuck Person, etc...He did not get the job done. He played on teams with enough talent to win 59 and 62 games a season. Avery Johnson was the heart, soul, and leader of those Spurs teams, not David. I mean this was rather clear to anyone who was a Spurs fan throughout the 1990s and is certainly not a secret. This, as well as David's inability to develop a reliable go-to offensive move, was what kept him back from being the playoff hoss he should have been.

[Admiral]

Wow, the forum novelist is back.

:lol


David Robinson had talent to play with when he was in San Antonio. I guess I imagined it when he played with Terry Cummings, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Dale Ellis, Dennis Rodman, Chuck Person, etc...He did not get the job done. He played on teams with enough talent to win 59 and 62 games a season. Avery Johnson was the heart, soul, and leader of those Spurs teams, not David. I mean this was rather clear to anyone who was a Spurs fan throughout the 1990s and is certainly not a secret. This, as well as David's inability to develop a reliable go-to offensive move, was what kept him back from being the playoff hoss he should have been.

Let me get this straight. You're essentially reducing your evaluation of David's playoff performances to his first three years in the league?!? That is when he played with most of the guys you mentioned, although he never had all of them on the team at the same time.

Cummings's biggest years were 89-90, 90-91, and 91-92, David's first three years in the league. After that he was injured, his scoring average dropped over 10 points per game and his rebounding 4 boards per game, and he was never the same.

David played with Strickland for three seasons, David's first three in the league. Rod put up numbers similar to AJ's. I think Rod had more raw talent than AJ, but didn't seem to have the desire AJ possessed. One can't help but wonder what might've been had Strickland not thrown that errant pass in Game 7 of the 1990 NBA Playoffs.

Willie Anderson's best year as a Spur was in 88-89, the year before David's rookie year. Willie had several good seasons with us, averaging low to mid teens in scoring. Not a bad player but not exceptional either.

Dale Ellis was a Spur for two seasons, 92-93 and 93-94, and gave us about 15 a game. I liked Dale's game. He wasn't afraid to shoot and he could get really hot from the field.

Rodman played for the Spurs for two seasons, 93-94 and 94-95. He pulled down 17 rebounds per game, played solid low-post defense, and provided virtually no offense. While he wasn't a big scorer, we needed his defense, rebounding, and energy in the postseason and he frequently let us down.

Chuck Person played for us from 94-95 through 97-98. He averaged 11 points per game a couple of times and was usually either red hot or ice cold coming off of the bench. I saw him win games for us and I saw him shoot us right out of close contests.

It is pretty funny that your best comeback consisted of Cummings, Elliott, Anderson, and Strickland when the "greats" had at least one and at times several Hall of Famers as their supporting cast. Elliott, Cummings, and Strickland hardly compares to Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, etc., or Parrish, McHale, Johnson, etc., or even Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, etc. That should be blatantly obvious to even the most casual NBA fan.

The point is that DRob simply didn't have the supporting casts necessary to win it all. He had some good players when he first came into the league, but it would've taken heroic performances by DRob for us to have won during any of those years. Based on the supporting casts you mentioned, those heroic efforts would've had to come in David's rookie year, second year, or possibly third year in the league. That's not realistic to have expected that from him at that point, especially given the fact that he started playing organized basketball so late in life.

Give him those guys when he was in his prime and it might've been a fair fight.

[Marcus Bryant]

In what seasons did the Spurs win 62 and 59 games? Certainly wasn't during Robinson's first 3 seasons in the league. Respectively those were the first and fourth (third highest for a full 82 game NBA regular season) highest regular season winning percentages a Spurs team has ever enjoyed and those were the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons (DRob's 6th and 7th NBA seasons). If the Spurs were that good you'd think they could've turned that into some real playoff success. And shockingly some of the players I listed were with the Spurs past DRob's first 3 seasons in the NBA. Barkley had some talent to play with in Phoenix in 1992-93 but it certainly wasn't overwhelming.

Lest I forget the 1993-94 season when both Olajuwon and Ewing carried crap rosters to the NBA Finals. DRob just did not have that ability/desire/passion to take his game to the next level in the playoffs.


Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, etc., or Parrish, McHale, Johnson

They were playing in 1994-95? 1995-96?

Stop making excuses. DRob was not perfect.

[Marcus Bryant]

Time for a refresher...

http://www.nba.com/spurs/history/spurs_history.html?nav=ArticleList#18


1993-94: King David Can't Take Spurs To The Promised Land

(No, I didn't come up with that title - MB)

In the offseason the Spurs traded Sean Elliott to the Detroit Pistons in a deal that brought Dennis Rodman to San Antonio. Rodman, sporting a variety of hair colors throughout the year, changed the entire look of the Spurs in 1993-94. A team that had finished last in the NBA in offensive rebounding percentage the previous season vaulted to first with Rodman aboard. The iconoclastic rebounder helped San Antonio craft the league's second-best defense, allowing only 94.8 points per game.

However, Rodman's most noticeable impact was on David Robinson, who had less pressure to rebound and more opportunities to score. Doing more of his work on the perimeter, Robinson led the NBA in scoring with 29.8 points per game. On the last day of the season he wrested the scoring crown from Shaquille O'Neal by pouring in 71 points against the Los Angeles Clippers, becoming only the fourth player in NBA history to score 70 points in a game. He had also registered the fourth quadruple-double in NBA annals with 34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists, and 10 blocks against Detroit on February 17. At season's end, he was runner-up to Hakeem Olajuwon for the NBA MVP Award.

Rodman (17.3 rpg) and Robinson became the first teammates to lead the NBA in both scoring and rebounding in the same season. The Spurs finished 55-17, second to the Houston Rockets in the Midwest Division. But after going 3-7 in their final 10 games, they entered a first-round playoff series against the Utah Jazz with little momentum. Utah won in four games, as the Spurs managed only 88.0 points per contest. A few weeks later Lucas left San Antonio to become head coach and general manager of the Philadelphia 76ers.

Next up is the best regular season that the Spurs have ever had.


http://www.nba.com/spurs/history/spurs_history.html?nav=ArticleList#19


1994-95: Robinson & Co. Surge To 62-Win Season

The 1994-95 campaign proved to be the best ever for the Spurs, although it ended a bit prematurely for San Antonio fans. The team posted a 62-20 record, tops in the NBA and the best in franchise history. The Spurs' previous best record was 56-26 in 1989-90, David Robinson's rookie season.

The year didn't begin with much promise. With Dennis Rodman suspended, San Antonio stumbled out to a 7-9 record. But the Spurs went 55-11 the rest of the way, logging a 15-game winning streak during one stretch. They ended the regular season with a 21-2 record in their final 23 games. The team went 11-2 in February, 14-2 in March, and 11-2 in April to win the Midwest Division.

Several players had career seasons. Robinson won the NBA Most Valuable Player Award for a season in which he was third in the league in scoring (27.6 ppg), seventh in rebounding (10.8 rpg), and fourth in blocked shots (3.23 per game). He was also named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. Dynamic point guard Avery Johnson rejoined the team after a year with the Golden State Warriors and averaged 13.4 points and 8.2 assists. He increased his scoring average for the seventh consecutive season, and his .519 field-goal percentage ranked third among NBA guards.

Sean Elliott, reacquired from the Detroit Pistons in a trade for draft pick Bill Curley, lit up the scoring charts with an average of 18.1 points per game and drilled 136 of 333 three-pointers for a .408 percentage (18th in the NBA). Rodman's look remained unique and his rebounding unmatched. Despite missing 33 games, he led the league in rebounding for the fourth consecutive season (16.8 rpg) and was named to the All-NBA Third Team and the NBA All-Defensive First Team. Vinny Del Negro assumed the starting off guard job and averaged 12.5 points on .486 shooting from the field. Chuck Person joined the team and knocked down 172 three-pointers as a hired gun off the bench.

In the playoffs, the Spurs swept the Denver Nuggets in the first round, got past the Los Angeles Lakers in six games in the conference semifinals, and then fell in six games to the Houston Rockets in the conference finals.

Lastly (and most appropriately entitled):


http://www.nba.com/spurs/history/spurs_history.html?nav=ArticleList#20


1995-96: Spurs Can't Shake Playoff Blues

Prior to the 1995-96 season, the Spurs traded Dennis Rodman to the Chicago Bulls in exchange for center Will Perdue. While Rodman's talents ultimately led the Bulls back to the NBA championship, the hope was that the trade would be addition by subtraction. Rodman, though an unparalleled rebounder, proved distracting to the Spurs in their quest for a title.

The move paid off in the regular season, where the Spurs didn't miss a beat. They completed the season 59-23 to capture their second straight Midwest Division title, only three games off their record-setting pace of the previous year. Team chemistry was remarkable, and according to coach Bob Hill "the best I've ever been around."

The talent was equally extraordinary. Sean Elliott and David Robinson represented the West at the All-Star Game, and the backcourt of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson posted the league's best assist to turnover ratio. They shored up their front line with the acquisition of Charles Smith and Monty Williams from New York in February. In March, they posted a perfect 16-0 record, tying them with the 1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers for the best month in NBA history.

But come playoff time, the Spurs faced the same question. Could they win in the postseason? They proved to Phoenix that the answer was yes, winning three games to one in the first round best-of-five series. In the second round, the Spurs battled the Utah Jazz to six games, but as in 1994, the Jazz toppled the Spurs, handing San Antonio's hope of that still elusive trip to the Finals.


That is from the Spurs' official history which is available on their website.

[Admiral]

Impressive cut and paste skills, Marcus. Anything else?

[Marcus Bryant]

Perhaps you missed:

In what seasons did the Spurs win 62 and 59 games? Certainly wasn't during Robinson's first 3 seasons in the league. Respectively those were the first and fourth (third highest for a full 82 game NBA regular season) highest regular season winning percentages a Spurs team has ever enjoyed and those were the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons (DRob's 6th and 7th NBA seasons). If the Spurs were that good you'd think they could've turned that into some real playoff success. And shockingly some of the players I listed were with the Spurs past DRob's first 3 seasons in the NBA. Barkley had some talent to play with in Phoenix in 1992-93 but it certainly wasn't overwhelming.

Lest I forget the 1993-94 season when both Olajuwon and Ewing carried crap rosters to the NBA Finals. DRob just did not have that ability/desire/passion to take his game to the next level in the playoffs.


Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy, etc., or Parrish, McHale, Johnson

They were playing in 1994-95? 1995-96?

Stop making excuses. DRob was not perfect.

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, judging by your namby pamby view of Saint David it was necessary to remind you of a little bit of Spurs history. Seeking to minimize the time I spent responding to your bullshit, I opted to cut and paste some quality material which illustrates the stupidity of your claims.

Now write me another novel about how Saint David could do no wrong and was a playoff hoss.