Duncan: the greatest defensive power forward ever

[pwilliam]

An article claims that Duncan is the greatest defensive power forward ever!!


It's an open secret that Duncan has lost a step this season because of the plantar fasciitis he's battled all season, making him less effective at both ends. He's struggling a bit coming out to defend pick-and-rolls. Still, Duncan is arguably the greatest defensive power forward in the history of the NBA, so he had room to come down a bit and still be the best player at his position.

http://82games.com/pelton17.htm

[JamStone]

Tim Duncan has been the best power forward in the history of the league for a few years now. Nothing new.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Yeah, but he doesn't think that Bruce should be DPOY. For that he must die!!!

[ShoogarBear]

Tim Duncan has been the best power forward in the history of the league for a few years now. Nothing new.
I think if he can win a title this year, there's a strong argument he's the greatest forward of all time period. Yes, that would include Bird.

Reasons being, 1. He's matched or bettered the accomplishments of any other forward, and 2. he's the only forward who you could build both your offense and your defense around and win championships.

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah, but he doesn't think that Bruce should be DPOY. For that he must die!!!

He has a dislike for Bowen. He's a writer for the Sonics.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

He has a dislike for Bowen. He's a writer for the Sonics.

Oh, well then no need to kill him. He's already serving out a fate worse than death. :spin

[J.T.]

Tim is mosdef the greatest power forward ever, if you look at his game and the fact that the Spurs have won three titles and the only real common element between the three titles is Tim and Pop, it shows that TD makes the rest of the team stronger. Although I don't think he will win Finals MVP, unless he has just been sleepin on us all season and pulls out the 35 and 15 a game in the finals. Most likely it will be Tony.


He has a dislike for Bowen. He's a writer for the Sonics.

Ray Allen probably called him and told him not to pick Bowen.

[ShoogarBear]

Ray Allen probably called him and told him not to pick Bowen.
:lol

Realistically, I can't see Tony winning MVP in a Finals matchup against the Pistons. Billups is just too good, and Tony will have to play better defense and expend more energy than he has been this year to help contain him or Rip.

The Spurs chances against Detroit will once again rise or fall with TD.

[J.T.]

:lol

Realistically, I can't see Tony winning MVP in a Finals matchup against the Pistons. Billups is just too good, and Tony will have to play better defense and expend more energy than he has been this year to help contain him or Rip.

The Spurs chances against Detroit will once again rise or fall with TD.

You have a point, but I think Tony will step it up in the POs. Tim too for that matter. Tony's played with a lot of confidence this year and has been consistent. Hopefully no more playoff blues for the Frenchman. And while I'd love to play a rematch with Detroit, there are a lot of teams in the East that will make some noise. I see a 2nd round matchup with Detroit and Washington that can go 6 games either way. Against anyone other than Detroit, Tony will have a really good series.

[Extra Stout]

I see a 2nd round matchup with Detroit and Washington that can go 6 games either way.
6 games is feasible, I guess, IF the Pistons falter, but either way? As in the Wizards having a shot at winning it? Um, no. .500 teams don't beat 65-win teams.

[kris]

You guys are assuming they get to the finals again.

[conqueso]

An article claims that Duncan is the greatest defensive power forward ever!!

Duncan isn't the greatest power forward ever...David Robinson is the greatest power forward ever. Duncan is like the fifth or sixth best center of all time. And the only reason anyone ever called Robinson a center was because he was 7'2". The only reason anyone ever called Duncan a PF was because Robinson was already the center listed on the Spurs roster. There's a lot of irony in that. If you look at their games, Duncan fits the traditional model of center better; back to the basket player with great foot work and highly-refined post skills. Robinson on the other hand fits the traditional model of a power forward better: he was quicker, faster, much more athletic, faced-up to the basket and shot mainly jumpers. Statistically speaking, Duncan looks more like a young Zo, who is clearly a center, than anyone else. On the other hand, analysts compare a player like Amare, who is clearly a power forward, to a young David Robinson.

Based on that appraisal, Duncan can only be said to be in the top ten defensive centers, since Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Mutombo, Ewing shit maybe even Ben Wallace, Zo, and Nate Thurmond, are better defenders than Duncan. But also based on that appraisal, Robinson is far and away the best defensive power forward of all-time. So take your pick.

[Bruno]

San Antonio shuts down both shooting guards and small forwards defensively (opponents have a total PER of 12.5 at both positions), and while that's partially scheme and partially the Spurs big men, it's largely Bowen.

How can a writer make such a bad analyse ?

Bruce defends 90% of the time on the best opposite SG/SF.
So with Bruce the best opposite swingman isn't better than the other.

[ShoogarBear]

Duncan isn't the greatest power forward ever...David Robinson is the greatest power forward ever.
.
.
.


While I can respect your argument, the fact remains that when they were both on the floor, DRob was the guy guarding the Shaqs and Ewings and Mournings.

[spurofthemoment]

You have a point, but I think Tony will step it up in the POs. Tim too for that matter. Tony's played with a lot of confidence this year and has been consistent. Hopefully no more playoff blues for the Frenchman. And while I'd love to play a rematch with Detroit, there are a lot of teams in the East that will make some noise. I see a 2nd round matchup with Detroit and Washington that can go 6 games either way. Against anyone other than Detroit, Tony will have a really good series.
I dont know about Washington Miami will be getting Zo back for the playoffs and dont forget JKidd and Vinsanity

[spurofthemoment]

While I can respect your argument, the fact remains that when they were both on the floor, DRob was the guy guarding the Shaqs and Ewings and Mournings.
True but isnt David in the NBAs top 50 so his greatness is recognized

[ShoogarBear]

True but isnt David in the NBAs top 50 so his greatness is recognized

I'm not talking about greatness, I was addressing the argument that DRob was really a power forward and TD is really a center. When they were both on the court, Robinson was clearly the center on defense.

[Spurminator]

I think Duncan could be accurately characterized as a center or a forward. Defensively he's probably more of a center, but he has just as much offensive flexibility and range as great power forwards like McHale and Malone. He's definitely more similar to Malone than a Wilt or a Shaq on the offensive end.

[polandprzem]

Duncan isn't the greatest power forward ever...David Robinson is the greatest power forward ever. Duncan is like the fifth or sixth best center of all time. And the only reason anyone ever called Robinson a center was because he was 7'2". The only reason anyone ever called Duncan a PF was because Robinson was already the center listed on the Spurs roster. There's a lot of irony in that. If you look at their games, Duncan fits the traditional model of center better; back to the basket player with great foot work and highly-refined post skills. Robinson on the other hand fits the traditional model of a power forward better: he was quicker, faster, much more athletic, faced-up to the basket and shot mainly jumpers. Statistically speaking, Duncan looks more like a young Zo, who is clearly a center, than anyone else. On the other hand, analysts compare a player like Amare, who is clearly a power forward, to a young David Robinson.

Based on that appraisal, Duncan can only be said to be in the top ten defensive centers, since Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Mutombo, Ewing shit maybe even Ben Wallace, Zo, and Nate Thurmond, are better defenders than Duncan. But also based on that appraisal, Robinson is far and away the best defensive power forward of all-time. So take your pick.

Wilt Kareem and Ewing?


And why hakeem is a center? he can shoot outside he played faceing up basketball so why you consider him as a center?

[kskonn]

I think defensively Duncan was as good as any of the centers listed above. the most impresseive thing I find about duncan is his ability to be so effective on not only the offensive and defensive sides of the ball but also to be able to play defense against a variety of players.

[boutons_]

Tim's anchoring of the Spurs defense is probably worth as much as everything else he does for the Spurs. It's great to see him in the last couple games able/willing to turn up the defensive effort.

[spursfaninla]

The problem with making a distinction between the pf and c positions, is when you have a player who combines the skills associated with them, we get confused.

Pf: good post skills, good rebounder, with outside game. Fast enough to guard on the perimeter, big enough to block shots.

c: Blocker, rebounder, post skills. Doesn't need to have much of an outside game.

Thing is, there are guys that are thought of as "centers" who had outside games (Sabonis for instance).

David was more like a SF, really; he could use quickness to slash, and only later developed much of an outside shot. His post skills were (again) more from athletic ability and quickness than real footwork.

Today we are seeing the tall guys with alot of success having guard skills too. I'm not sure we can compare Duncan to guys from the past, especially because the skill sets of today are different. He has to guard TALL guys who act like sf's sometimes (Dirk), and then other guys who act like pf's (Sheed), then guard centers from time to time (shaq)...

[ShoogarBear]

Um, see the thread title. We are talking about DEFENSE. 90% of the things you are talking about when you guys are comparing David vs. Tim have to do with offense.

Once again, when they were both on the court, David was the center on defense.

[Darrin]

He's the best player of his generation, hands down. I think Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, Elvin Hayes, and Kevin McHale may have something to say about his all-time spot. I wouldn't know how to rank those 5 players.

[tlongII]

Duncan is a center.

[Darrin]

Duncan is a center.

Since when?

[ShoogarBear]

He's the best player of his generation, hands down. I think Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, Elvin Hayes, and Kevin McHale may have something to say about his all-time spot. I wouldn't know how to rank those 5 players.

Pettit I can't intelligently comment on. He was clearly THE best power forward of the NBA's first 25 years. That's probably all you will ever be able to say.

Hayes, no way. He was a great low post scorer but nowhere near the defender. Also had a reputation for being selfish and not stepping up in big games. And Wes Unseld was the leader of those Bullets teams.

McHale was also a great low post scorer and defender, but was never a great rebounder and never the focal point of either the offense or the defense. Also a notorious black hole on offense (with some reason). Plus he had ridiculous support on the front line (imagine if Tim played PF alongisde Dirk and Yao).

Malone, despite all the (somewhat well deserved) hate for him in Spursland, has impressive credentials on both the offensive and defensive end. Tim has an obvious edge in shotblocking. You can argue that the Spurs offense essentially runs through Tim, while Malone always worked off Stockton. And then of course, you have the rings, which to my mind (and most everyone else) seals the deal.

[ShoogarBear]

Since when?

You have to excuse tlong. He hasn't seen a good NBA game in over three years.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Malone, despite all the (somewhat well deserved) hate for him in Spursland, has impressive credentials on both the offensive and defensive end. Tim has an obvious edge in shotblocking. You can argue that the Spurs offense essentially runs through Tim, while Malone always worked off Stockton. And then of course, you have the rings, which to my mind (and most everyone else) seals the deal.

I was going to suggest that from a defensive standpoint the argument could be made for Malone, but worried that I might get shot for that belief. He was dirty as hell but he got the job done against guys like Dave and Tim. He managed to guard Duncan as well as anyone ever has in 2004 playing at the age of 93.

[conqueso]

Wilt Kareem and Ewing?


And why hakeem is a center? he can shoot outside he played faceing up basketball so why you consider him as a center?


Kareem averaged 4.1 blocks and 17 rebounds per game in '75-'76.

Ewing's best averages were 4 blocks ('89-'90) and 12 rebounds ('92-'93) per game.

Wilt averaged 27.2 boards in '60-'61. We'll never know how many blocks per game he averaged, but it's estimated by some to be 6 or more.

Compare to career best 4.5 blocks ('91-'92) and 13 boards ('90-'91) for Robinson and 2.9 blocks and 13 boards for Duncan in '02-'03.

Now Robinson, if considered in the company of centers, is clearly among the best in terms of defensive stats. Duncan, when compared with people who play the game like he does, is not very impressive. What's even more interesting is that his rebounding and blocked shot stats haven't increased since DRob retired.

Kareem was an amazing defender, especially early in his career. Some consider Ewing to be the best defensive center of the modern era (even though I don't really agree with that). I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with Wilt, so here's my justification. I know a lot of people like to play the "that was a different era" card, and for the sake of this discussion I'll grant that it made a big difference. But Wilt still averaged more that double Duncan's career best. I don't care what era he played in, he was a better rebounder than Duncan, especially in terms of desire. He didn't just stick his long ass arms up and catch every shot that careened off the rim like Duncan does. He used to fight motherfuckers for the boards, which is why he could outrebound other players of similar height (like Darrall Imhoff, for one). One-on-one against Russell, he always did better on the boards and limited Russell's offensive production (most of the time).

And far as Hakeem goes, good jump-shooting does not a power forward make. Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you're a pf. Take Brad Miller for instance, or Sabonis. Hakeem played back to the basket against most defenders, but against taller, longer guys who could block shots (i.e. Ewing and Robinson), he stepped outside and made quick moves to the hoop or shot jumpers. Granted, he slowed down latter on and relied more on his jumper, but early in his career he was a prototypical center (whatever that means).

[baseline bum]

Ewing better than Hakeem defensively? No way. Hakeem was so much quicker off his feet than Ewing.

EDIT: my bad, I missed the part where you said you didn't agree with Ewing being the best defensive center of the modern era

[conqueso]

Um, see the thread title. We are talking about DEFENSE. 90% of the things you are talking about when you guys are comparing David vs. Tim have to do with offense.

Once again, when they were both on the court, David was the center on defense.

I don't entirely agree with that. While it might be true that Robinson would man up against the opposing team's center, that was usually because it wouldn't be wise for Duncan to guard an offensive powerhouse like Shaq and get in foul trouble. The same can be said for some great power forwards...DRob would man up against Garnett and Webber frequently. Does that make him a PF? It's not always about who you guard, but how you guard them.

[ShoogarBear]

I was going to suggest that from a defensive standpoint the argument could be made for Malone, but worried that I might get shot for that belief. He was dirty as hell but he got the job done against guys like Dave and Tim. He managed to guard Duncan as well as anyone ever has in 2004 playing at the age of 93.
Malone was an incredible defender. He wasn't exceptionally tall or a great leaper, but he was about the strongest guy in the league and very quick. He gave both DRob and Duncan fits.

The funny thing about Malone is that, except for being dirty, his game was even more "boring" and fundamental than Tim's.

[T Park]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.

[conqueso]

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Oh shit, here we go again....

[ShoogarBear]

T Park, I don't think many people (exceptttt a few) would argue that Tim isn't a better overall basketball player. No question his offensive skills are more highly developed.

I do think that Duncan is nowhere near the defender that DRob was. Even in DRob's last year, I think he was a more effective defender of the paint than Duncan was (although it's hard to separate out their individual contributions). In fact, if there's one area where Tim has been a tad overrated, it's probably his defense.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.

That's one of those great questions that will never be answered. Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support. I think you're right about the defensive end of things. They're about equal in terms of their mental grasp of the defense, but Robinson's athleticism allowed him a little more room for error.

[mookie2001]

Something else to piss off the locals here.

IMO, Duncan has and is a better player than David Robinson.

Duncan can get his points from other places, where Robinson wasn't the greatest of jump shooters.

He was IMO better defensively though, just on his speed and agility.

Duncan though, in a tight game, seems to make clutcher shots than David used to as well.

Duncan seems able to carry the team better as well.


Flame away.
duncan is better than robinson
but it would have been close had we had better players and not so many coaches from 92-97

robinson got screwed over by his overall clutchness rating again, you take a away the video they still play of barkleys shot, and olajuwon being the best in the nba, in the same division, and his clutchness would be considered 100% better, even if he he still won two titles with duncan

robinson was a fine jumpshooter, if you take out the bankshot he was better than duncan

defensively there is no comparison robinson was a hawk, him and olajuwon were the greatest ive seen

[T Park]

I do think that Duncan is nowhere near the defender that DRob was. Even in DRob's last year, I think he was a more effective defender of the paint than Duncan was (although it's hard to separate out their individual contributions). In fact, if there's one area where Tim has been a tad overrated, it's probably his defense.

I agree.

But OVERALL, Duncan is the far better player.


Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support. I think you're right about the defensive end of things. They're about equal in terms of their mental grasp of the defense, but Robinson's athleticism allowed him a little more room for error.

I would say last year's team wasn't STELLAR.

Your bench consisted of Rasho, Beno, a broken down Glenn Robinson, Tony Masseburgh, and the only good one off the bench was Horry.


It was Duncan, Ginobili, Horry, and once ina while Parker, that won the ring.

David, I don't think, would've won a championship with last year's squad.

[mookie2001]

i wouldnt call that inflamatory
















see melmart1 in my sig

that should cause the collapse of society

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Your bench consisted of Rasho, Beno, a broken down Glenn Robinson, Tony Masseburgh, and the only good one off the bench was Horry.


It was Duncan, Ginobili, Horry, and once ina while Parker, that won the ring.

David, I don't think, would've won a championship with last year's squad.

I'd still take that supporting cast over any squad that Robinson had to play with, with the exception maybe being the 95 squad. That was a pretty good team but those 95 Rockets were a fucking buzzsaw in the playoffs.

A supporting cast consisting of an All star shooting guard, the most clutch playoff shooting role player in recent memory, plus a blossoming PG and a perennial DPOY candidate is still a pretty good supporting cast in my book. Hell, Shaq was able to turn half of that into three rings.

Are any of Robinson's teams that good?

(BTW, if I had to make a call one way or another I'd say that Duncan is probably the better, but only by a hair.)

EDIT: I'm going home now so in the event that someone wants to argue what I've posted all I'm trying to say is that the amount of big differences in the Spurs organization between the early nineties and now makes conclusive analysis difficult, if not impossible.

[T Park]

robinson was a fine jumpshooter, if you take out the bankshot he was better than duncan



No way no way no way.

Duncan's range, and form is so much better than Robinson's its not even funny.


Duncan knocks down that top of the key jumper quite a bit, and can nail that long one from the baseline quite a bit IE last year in game 7 VS Detroit.



robinson got screwed over by his overall clutchness rating again, you take a away the video they still play of barkleys shot, and olajuwon being the best in the nba, in the same division, and his clutchness would be considered 100% better, even if he he still won two titles with duncan


The 90-91 team should've done better. Especially Davd going against the likes of Alton Lister, Tom Tolbert, and other stiffs.

92-93 I believe had a great team, but the coaching sucked to high heaven.

[mookie2001]

form?
david JUMPed when he shot, unblockable jumper against rik smits. the ball arch was perfect, the ball fell from the sky making the rim bigger

duncans no joke but hes flatfooted and a line driver

dont remember the 03 robinson, he lost a lot of that

[T Park]

I remember the pre 03 robinson, and the joke was he looked like a player from NBA Live when you held the button down too long.

David's jumper is nowhere near as good as Duncan's.

David got alot of his points from his quickness to the basket and ability to just beat the living hell out of guys to the basket.

[ShoogarBear]

I remember the pre 03 robinson, and the joke was he looked like a player from NBA Live when you held the button down too long.
:rollin Whether or not you agree with this, that's pretty damn funny.

And you guys realize this thread is dangerously close to getting whottted?

[T Park]

Yeah I know, I just thought of that.


But I started watching Spurs basketball in 87, and have prob seen 98% of the games since then.

I remember Dave in his prime, and I see Duncan now.


Duncan is just the far better player OVERALL, and offensively.

DEFENSIVELY its obviously David, IMO, hes ONE OF the best defensive centers EVER.

Duncan though, is a better ball handler, better shooter, better passer at times, equal in rebounding, and prob a little smarter at the GAME.

Hes also got a bigger love for the game wich has kept him going unlike DRob who pretty much played cause he was 7'1, was so talented he couldn't help but play, and he got millions and millions for it.

[Darrin]

Hes also got a bigger love for the game wich has kept him going unlike DRob who pretty much played cause he was 7'1, was so talented he couldn't help but play, and he got millions and millions for it.

I agree with this. It may sound like a slight, but D-Rob had the important things in perspective, and basketball is just a game.

Feel free to correct me if I wrong.

[T Park]

No your right.

He had life and family before basketball wich is great.

Duncan does too I assume, but he loves the game too, wich is a great combo.

[TDfan2007]

Duncan has never played on a team without a first rate supporting cast, while Robinson consistently had good records with less than stellar support.

See 02-03 championship team, and 01-02 team.

[TDMVPDPOY]

td = g.o.a.t

shaq all talk

[polandprzem]

Kareem averaged 4.1 blocks and 17 rebounds per game in '75-'76.

Ewing's best averages were 4 blocks ('89-'90) and 12 rebounds ('92-'93) per game.

Wilt averaged 27.2 boards in '60-'61. We'll never know how many blocks per game he averaged, but it's estimated by some to be 6 or more.

Compare to career best 4.5 blocks ('91-'92) and 13 boards ('90-'91) for Robinson and 2.9 blocks and 13 boards for Duncan in '02-'03.

Now Robinson, if considered in the company of centers, is clearly among the best in terms of defensive stats. Duncan, when compared with people who play the game like he does, is not very impressive. What's even more interesting is that his rebounding and blocked shot stats haven't increased since DRob retired.

Kareem was an amazing defender, especially early in his career. Some consider Ewing to be the best defensive center of the modern era (even though I don't really agree with that). I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with Wilt, so here's my justification. I know a lot of people like to play the "that was a different era" card, and for the sake of this discussion I'll grant that it made a big difference. But Wilt still averaged more that double Duncan's career best. I don't care what era he played in, he was a better rebounder than Duncan, especially in terms of desire. He didn't just stick his long ass arms up and catch every shot that careened off the rim like Duncan does. He used to fight motherfuckers for the boards, which is why he could outrebound other players of similar height (like Darrall Imhoff, for one). One-on-one against Russell, he always did better on the boards and limited Russell's offensive production (most of the time).

And far as Hakeem goes, good jump-shooting does not a power forward make. Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you're a pf. Take Brad Miller for instance, or Sabonis. Hakeem played back to the basket against most defenders, but against taller, longer guys who could block shots (i.e. Ewing and Robinson), he stepped outside and made quick moves to the hoop or shot jumpers. Granted, he slowed down latter on and relied more on his jumper, but early in his career he was a prototypical center (whatever that means).

Now tell me what makes you a center?
An athletic ability? A low post presents?
Dave had the 7'1" and they put him on a center, he faster then eny big men and that was his adventage (yup I can say Hakeem is as fast as Dave and maybe is more mobile).
Bob Pettit was a center in college but when he came to the NBA he changes his position to the forward and he became more allaround player, he could shoot the outside shots beat guys of the dribble and he get the edge that's why he was the greatest Foirward at the begining of the leauge. So what makes him a forward?


The problem with the defesnsive centers is that I haven't seen many games of Kareem and Wilt. But I know that reboudning and blocking is not all when you are talking about defense. I heard that Wilt was not that good of a defensive player till the days he was playing with Lakers. Sheesh he was a monster back then...
Ewing was not that quick on his feet as somebody posted here. But I wuold like to see more of his games cause all I know he was beaten by Hakeem and Dave although he had Mason's and Oakley's backing him up.

We can talk about the indywidual abilities but when it comes to winning Duncan is the best of all of them. Wilt couldn't do anything while Russell's team was destrying him. Only the Philadelphia was ateam for him when he can claim his greatness as a winner. he could't win even with West and Baylor on the team. I saw that last game of the Finals when Frazier took over - lakers had no passion no team work what so ever. Next year cam Goodrich and many ppl ssay he was the main reason they won. baylor was out and they "decided" to play like a team. Wilt was ore concentrated on D and it worked. (Damn Wilt was a monster)

[cs100]

I think this thread has been permanently hijacked. :D

I hope the real votes are the same as this writer's "imaginary" vote. Both TD and Bowen in the first All Defensive Team would be quite an achievement.

BTW, Tim is a PF on paper regardless of how many discussions go on about his style of play.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think when ur comparing block or reb stats of duncan to the great big men, his stats arent that far off even though they are not dominating stats, but if you take his team defensive stats in consideration > those players teams stats.

todays league, is more catered to teh swingmen.