Official Referee Whining Thread (I have merged over 10 threads here)

[SpursGo25]

The NBA knows that last year's finals between the Spurs and Pistons had the worst ratings in YEARS!! They dont want that to happen again, and will do what they have to to try to stop it. They cant 100% stop it without being completely obvious, but they can make things difficult for teams like the Spurs who they dont want to win due to the lack of revenue that they generate.

[Tek_XX]

You're right. The NBA calls games for Stars (especially stars of big market teams) differently to make money. And that is wrong. That is biased, and it is illegal. That doesnt happen in other pro sports like it does in the NBA. That is what my whole point is here, that the NBA doesnt want a fair game. They want the teams to win that make them the most money, even if that means getting games like games 2 and 3 of this series where the officials are obviously biased.

yeah i think it was pretty obvious who the refs were trying to help at the end of this game. How many FT's did mavs have in the 4th quarter?

[Mavs_man_41]

yeah i think it was pretty obvious who the refs were trying to help at the end of this game. How many FT's did mavs have in the 4th quarter?

who cares how many times the spurs fouled us in the 4th quarter....they can only blame themselves

[Winnipeg_Spur]

The NBA knows that last year's finals between the Spurs and Pistons had the worst ratings in YEARS!! They dont want that to happen again, and will do what they have to to try to stop it. They cant 100% stop it without being completely obvious, but they can make things difficult for teams like the Spurs who they dont want to win due to the lack of revenue that they generate.
Makes perfect sense to me, Detroit winning in 5 against the Mavs would really improve the ratings.

[gospursgojas]

Sometimes it is just that obvious though, just if someone calls out the refs than they are making excuses, or whining. Ohhh and God forbid someone from the NBA calling out the refs b/c a fine would be waiting for them when they get home

[Tek_XX]

I think the a Mavs vs. Pistons would be worse in the ratings.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The NBA knows that last year's finals between the Spurs and Pistons had the worst ratings in YEARS!! They dont want that to happen again, and will do what they have to to try to stop it. They cant 100% stop it without being completely obvious, but they can make things difficult for teams like the Spurs who they dont want to win due to the lack of revenue that they generate.

The 2003 Finals had the worst ratings in years. Why didn't the league make it difficult for the Spurs last year?


Or is it just in even years that they lock down SA?

[SPARKY]

The Spurs have been the recipient of some rather questionable calls in this series thusfar. It's not a conspiracy, but it's hard to ignore, especially since two of those calls took out their franchise at inopportune moments. If TD didn't get that phantom 2nd foul in Game 2 I think the complexion of that game would've been wholly different. Anyways, I guess we Spurs fans can hope that TD doesn't get into foul trouble from here on. I like the Spurs' chances if that is the case.

[SpursGo25]

Makes perfect sense to me, Detroit winning in 5 against the Mavs would really improve the ratings.
I guarantee you a Mavs Pistons series would be better ratings for the NBA than a Spurs Pistons series. Remember that it isnt about quality of basketball, it is about which markets generate more money. So what if the Mavs lose in 5? They ratings will be better. The league would LOVE a Suns - Heat finals this year. Watch out DET!! You may be next on the hit list.

[East Coast Babe]

I did watch the game tonight, and there are some women who know something about basketball, believe it or not. There is a lot of talk about Tim's last foul. On looking at the replay, he did foul Dirk. Most teams play Dirk very close because they know he will get shots he goes after if they don't. Every team does that! He is no push over!! Fans don't seem to know that, but coaches and other players do. Your team has been playing him very close to prevent him from getting shots. When that happens, he may get a lot of fouls, which he did. No one is talking about Tim's 35 points, or Manu (I think) 24 they got last night. How come?

In years past as someone else pointed out, the calls have definitely gone in your favor! It is a simple way to work the refs really. You whine, and whine, and whine and then flop, flop, flop until they think the other team really is fouling you (even though they aren't) and you get the calls. This year the refs aren't buying it. Good for them! If you look at the pictures of your team doing that, they are funny, really. Academy Award performances if I ever saw it!

I really hope we play the Suns or the Mavs this year for the Championship. At least we will get straight up games that way. No flopping and whining.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I did watch the game tonight, and there are some women who know something about basketball, believe it or not. There is a lot of talk about Tim's last foul. On looking at the replay, he did foul Dirk. Most teams play Dirk very close because they know he will get shots he goes after if they don't. Every team does that! He is no push over!! Fans don't seem to know that, but coaches and other players do. Your team has been playing him very close to prevent him from getting shots. When that happens, he may get a lot of fouls, which he did. No one is talking about Tim's 35 points, or Manu (I think) 24 they got last night. How come?

In years past as someone else pointed out, the calls have definitely gone in your favor! It is a simple way to work the refs really. You whine, and whine, and whine and then flop, flop, flop until they think the other team really is fouling you (even though they aren't) and you get the calls. This year the refs aren't buying it. Good for them! If you look at the pictures of your team doing that, they are funny, really. Academy Award performances if I ever saw it!

I really hope we play the Suns or the Mavs this year for the Championship. At least we will get straight up games that way. No flopping and whining.
Have you ever watched the Pistons play?

[SpursGo25]

The 2003 Finals had the worst ratings in years. Why didn't the league make it difficult for the Spurs last year?


Or is it just in even years that they lock down SA?
Who was going to beat SA last year? The Sonics? The Suns? The Spurs played great and the NBA didnt have a horse to ride like they do now. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that only the Spurs are the recipient of bad officiating. Dont you think the officiating between the Heat and Pistons last year was slanted toward the Heat? I watched the games and got that impression. The Heat are a better market with Shaq than the Pistons. The Pistons won because they were the better team, but the league surely wanted the Heat there instead. And last years finals had horrible ratings. Just as bad as 2003

[SPARKY]

The only way Duncan's 6th foul was legit was if there was contact up top which preceeded Nowitzki's loss of control. That was not the case. The only contact was Nowitzki stepping on his foot. That's a bailout, not a foul. Ultimately I think the league needs to have some kind of replay policy, there's no reason not to. The refs already have that in place for shots at the end of quarters. It might not hurt refs to take another look, especially in the postseason, when one play can significantly affect a series.

[Tek_XX]

I did watch the game tonight, and there are some women who know something about basketball, believe it or not. There is a lot of talk about Tim's last foul. On looking at the replay, he did foul Dirk. Most teams play Dirk very close because they know he will get shots he goes after if they don't. Every team does that! He is no push over!! Fans don't seem to know that, but coaches and other players do. Your team has been playing him very close to prevent him from getting shots. When that happens, he may get a lot of fouls, which he did. No one is talking about Tim's 35 points, or Manu (I think) 24 they got last night. How come?

In years past as someone else pointed out, the calls have definitely gone in your favor! It is a simple way to work the refs really. You whine, and whine, and whine and then flop, flop, flop until they think the other team really is fouling you (even though they aren't) and you get the calls. This year the refs aren't buying it. Good for them! If you look at the pictures of your team doing that, they are funny, really. Academy Award performances if I ever saw it!

I really hope we play the Suns or the Mavs this year for the Championship. At least we will get straight up games that way. No flopping and whining.

Well this is one woman who doens't know shit about basketball

[Tek_XX]

The only way Duncan's 6th foul was legit was if there was contact up top which preceeded Nowitzki's loss of control. That was not the case. The only contact was Nowitzki stepping on his foot. That's a bailout, not a foul. Ultimately I think the league needs to have some kind of replay policy, there's no reason not to. The refs already have that in place for shots at the end of quarters. It might not hurt refs to take another look, especially in the postseason, when one play can significantly affect a series.

Exactly is was a convient call on a foul that is rarely called. Is it even a foul?

Did Dirk get a foul when Manu fell on Dirks foot a few years back, that answer is no.

[gospursgojas]

First of all Mavs Fan 41, you're begging for someone to admit that the Spurs were outplayed tonight, and maybe they were, but it seems to me like you forgot that even with how horrible the Spurs played tonight and with how this was probally the worse D the Spurs played all season, the Mavs only won by one.

So don't act like the Mavs DOMINATED the Spurs

And to act like the refs had NO effect on the outcome of this game what so ever, just throws any creditbility you have out the window. So no one is going to take anything you post and more seriously than a Mavs fan who is happy his team is FINALLY good enough to take a 2-1 series lead in a best of 7 series.

I mean if it were the other way around I would be able to say that the Spurs got some help from the refs... I mean its not like I would not accept the win, or apologize to you Mavs fans for a crappy called game. So I dont expect you to, but I mean, come on, the refs helped the Mavs out in this game... So be happy with the win, but dont act like the NBA has the best refs ever and the Mavs just totally dominated the Spurs fair and square

[SpursGo25]

I did watch the game tonight, and there are some women who know something about basketball, believe it or not. There is a lot of talk about Tim's last foul. On looking at the replay, he did foul Dirk. Most teams play Dirk very close because they know he will get shots he goes after if they don't. Every team does that! He is no push over!! Fans don't seem to know that, but coaches and other players do. Your team has been playing him very close to prevent him from getting shots. When that happens, he may get a lot of fouls, which he did. No one is talking about Tim's 35 points, or Manu (I think) 24 they got last night. How come?

In years past as someone else pointed out, the calls have definitely gone in your favor! It is a simple way to work the refs really. You whine, and whine, and whine and then flop, flop, flop until they think the other team really is fouling you (even though they aren't) and you get the calls. This year the refs aren't buying it. Good for them! If you look at the pictures of your team doing that, they are funny, really. Academy Award performances if I ever saw it!

I really hope we play the Suns or the Mavs this year for the Championship. At least we will get straight up games that way. No flopping and whining.
Honey, it's only a foul if the defensive player initiates contact that gives the defensive player a competitive advantage through physical contact. Dirk stepping on TD's foot and loosing the ball out of bounds does not count. Dirk initiated contact by stepping on TD's foot and TD never initiated any contact that gave him a competitive advantage.

[SPARKY]

I think the Dallas fans know that tonight's game could've easily had a different, and unpleasant (for them) outcome. That's why they are in here seeking validation.

[gospursgojas]

I think the Dallas fans know that tonight's game could've easily had a different, and unpleasant (for them) outcome. That's why they are in here seeking validation.

:tu

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I guarantee you a Mavs Pistons series would be better ratings for the NBA than a Spurs Pistons series. Remember that it isnt about quality of basketball, it is about which markets generate more money. So what if the Mavs lose in 5? They ratings will be better. The league would LOVE a Suns - Heat finals this year. Watch out DET!! You may be next on the hit list.
The NBA doesn't ONLY care about ratings, the more games are played the more advertising dollars can roll in as well. The bottom line with this conspiracy theory (as with most) is you're actually giving the NBA too much credit. You think an organization that set up a system that has the two best teams in the West playing in the 2nd round, and a team like the Clippers gaining a tangible playoff benefit from losing games down the stretch, you think an organization that incompetent could set up some massive conspiracy and not let any of these details escape, despite the hundreds (or thousands) of conspirators?

I don't...

[East Coast Babe]

Have you ever watched the Pistons play?

Mny times!! I'm a Piston's fan, or did you not look. You want me to run down the starting line up or the coach for you? Just as a point of interest, Rasheed Wallace went to college at UNC.

Tim's foul: There was contact up top before Dirk lost control. That is why Tim got called for the foul! There was a replay. Maybe you didn't see it.

You think I don't know anything about basketball, because you didn't like what I said.

[SpursGo25]

The only thing I ask for is a league that has the best officials on the court to call fair games. If the Mavs win a fair series, so be it. They would have deserved it. If the Spurs win a fair series, so be it. They would have deserved it. But these horrible officials that are allowed to make bad call after bad call with no reprocussions is unacceptable. Remember that it is not only calls in the 4th or in the last minutes that can decide a game... bullshit calls early in the game (as in game 2) can sideline a big player and completely take away a teams ability to compete when a team is being slammed so badly by the officials. The NBA officials play a major role in nearly every game, and that is wrong.

[Mavs_man_41]

:tu

no, the win is valid without approval from any of you.

[SpursGo25]

Mny times!! I'm a Piston's fan, or did you not look. You want me to run down the starting line up or the coach for you? Just as a point of interest, Rasheed Wallace went to college at UNC.

Tim's foul: There was contact up top before Dirk lost control. That is why Tim got called for the foul! There was a replay. Maybe you didn't see it.

You think I don't know anything about basketball, because you didn't like what I said.


Dirk lost the ball immediately after twisting his ankle on TD's foot. TD didnt initiate any contact. Dirk initiated the contact. This is a basic rule of officials, I use it all the time to call games.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Who was going to beat SA last year? The Sonics? The Suns? The Spurs played great and the NBA didnt have a horse to ride like they do now. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that only the Spurs are the recipient of bad officiating. Dont you think the officiating between the Heat and Pistons last year was slanted toward the Heat? I watched the games and got that impression. The Heat are a better market with Shaq than the Pistons. The Pistons won because they were the better team, but the league surely wanted the Heat there instead. And last years finals had horrible ratings. Just as bad as 2003

:lol

What happened in the 2004 Finals? Or was that a strategic move by the league to make it seem legit?

[SPARKY]

I don't see a conspiracy, I see a group of people who are prone to the same influences as anyone else. There are players they like and dislike as well as coaches, teams, cities, etc.. They also have the propensity to err. Think about the number of plays a ref has to watch and call on a nightly basis. Ultimately you come to the realization that there does need to be some kind of instant replay implemented.

[East Coast Babe]

Dirk lost the ball immediately after twisting his ankle on TD's foot. TD didnt initiate any contact. Dirk initiated the contact. This is a basic rule of officials, I use it all the time to call games.

Sorry, Tim hit in the chest first and that was why the call was made. Dirk hit his foot later. I might have agreed with you, except after seeing the replay, it was obvious what happened.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Mny times!! I'm a Piston's fan, or did you not look. You want me to run down the starting line up or the coach for you? Just as a point of interest, Rasheed Wallace went to college at UNC.
If you watch so many Piston games you would know that they whine just as much, if not more, than the Spurs. They do their fair share of flopping too...

[SpursGo25]

:lol

What happened in the 2004 Finals? Or was that a strategic move by the league to make it seem legit?
The Pistons beat the Lakers. The officiating was bad in that series as well. The NBA doesnt care who wins the title as much as they care who plays for the title. That is where the ratings and advertising dollars come into play. After the finals, there are no more series to make money off of.

Do you really think the NBA officials do a good job that would be expected of a professional? I seem to recall you saying that the refs suck earlier...

[SPARKY]

no, the win is valid without approval from any of you.

Sure.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't see a conspiracy, I see a group of people who are prone to the same influences as anyone else. There are players they like and dislike as well as coaches, teams, cities, etc.. They also have the propensity to err. Think about the number of plays a ref has to watch and call on a nightly basis. Ultimately you come to the realization that there does need to be some kind of instant replay implemented.

Replay would make the games too long. Missed calls and bad calls are part of the fabric of the game...

[SpursGo25]

Sorry, Tim hit in the chest first and that was why the call was made. Dirk hit his foot later. I might have agreed with you, except after seeing the replay, it was obvious what happened.
Wow, by your account TD has the longest arms in the history of mankind. Dirk was striding long (and the fucking guy is 7 feet tall) when he hit TD's foot - there is no way Timmy got an arm in Dirks chest before Dirk stepped on him. It is physically impossible.

[East Coast Babe]

If you watch so many Piston games you would know that they whine just as much, if not more, than the Spurs. They do their fair share of flopping too...

Perhaps you should show me pictures to that effect. I have seen them whine, but you all win that competition, I think.

[SpursGo25]

Replay would make the games too long. Missed calls and bad calls are part of the fabric of the game...
That's the biggest load of BS that gets recycled over and over. Since when is FUCKING UP a part of the fabric of any successful business?

The truth is that the NBA refs fuck up way too much and there are refs out there that are better. Why is it that college basketball is officiated well while the NBA is not? The College officials do not have the controversy that the NBA ones have because they do a far better job. That's a fact. The lack of controversy proves it. So why is the NBA content with BS officials that are worse than college officials? Doesnt add up.

[SPARKY]

The contact on Nowitzki occurred after he stepped on TD's foot and lost the ball as he started to hit the deck in pain. It was a bogus call to eject TD but so far in this series nothing suprises me with the calls on TD.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Perhaps you should show me pictures to that effect. I have seen them whine, but you all win that competition, I think.
Pictures? How's this for a picture:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatmisc&sort=techs&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=2&avg=pg&order=true&split=0

RNK TEAM OWN OPP OWN OPP OWN OPP OWN OPP DIF A/TO TECH
1 Detroit 24.0 18.8 7.1 5.9 6.0 3.5 10.8 13.3 -10.1 2.23 59

The formatting's screwed up, but the bottom line is that the Pistons led the league in technical fouls this year. If there's an objective measure for how much a team complains to the refs that would be it.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

That's the biggest load of BS that gets recycled over and over. Since when is FUCKING UP a part of the fabric of any successful business?

The truth is that the NBA refs fuck up way too much and there are refs out there that are better. Why is it that college basketball is officiated well while the NBA is not? The College officials do not have the controversy that the NBA ones have because they do a far better job. That's a fact. The lack of controversy proves it. So why is the NBA content with BS officials that are worse than college officials? Doesnt add up.

You do realize the the refs are human, right? Bad calls and missed calls are part of the fabric of every sport at any level. And yes, even in college BB...

[SpursGo25]

You do realize the the refs are human, right? Bad calls and missed calls are part of the fabric of every sport at any level. And yes, even in college BB...
Jesus, you just dont get it. I'm not saying any official is perfect. But the college officials DO A FAR BETTER JOB THAN NBA OFFICIALS. That is a fact that has been proven over the years due to the fact that NBA officials are steeped in controversy and bad calls while college officials rarely make the level of mistakes that NBA ones make. NO official is perfect, but the college (and many HS officials) do a far better job on a consistent basis than any NBA official out there. So why does the NBA settle for trash and BS from its officials when there are many officials out there that are better? That is my question.

[East Coast Babe]

Wow, by your account TD has the longest arms in the history of mankind. Dirk was striding long (and the fucking guy is 7 feet tall) when he hit TD's foot - there is no way Timmy got an arm in Dirks chest before Dirk stepped on him. It is physically impossible.

He was very close to Dirk, why do you think Dirk's foot ended up on top of his? He was not running down the floor. He was right underneath the basket. Both of them were.

[SpursGo25]

He was very close to Dirk, why do you think Dirk's foot ended up on top of his? He was not running down the floor. He was right underneath the basket. Both of them were.
Dirk was striding to the basket. A 7 foot tall man has a long stride and Dirk wasnt that close to Duncan at the moment he stepped on him. After he stepped on him he got a lot closer due to his momentum carrying him towards TD. Physics. Learn IT.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Jesus, you just dont get it. I'm not saying any official is perfect. But the college officials DO A FAR BETTER JOB THAN NBA OFFICIALS. That is a fact that has been proven over the years due to the fact that NBA officials are steeped in controversy and bad calls while college officials rarely make the level of mistakes that NBA ones make. NO official is perfect, but the college (and many HS officials) do a far better job on a consistent basis than any NBA official out there. So why does the NBA settle for trash and BS from its officials when there are many officials out there that are better? That is my question.

Most college officials would struggle immensely doing NBA games because the players are bigger and the speed of the game is a helluva lot faster.

Comparing officiating at a HS level to the NBA game is just one in a list of many moronic things you've said in this thread.

[SpursGo25]

Most college officials would struggle immensely doing NBA games because the players are bigger and the speed of the game is a helluva lot faster.

Comparing officiating at a HS level to the NBA game is just one in a list of many moronic things you've said in this thread.
You obviously dont know what you are talking about. The speed is faster, but not enough to warrant such shitty calls. You are making excuses for a league that is cheating you, me, and every other fan. Open your eyes. I didnt compare officiating a hs game to an nba game, but I know many hs officials who are very good and could do a better job if given the chance. The game isnt so fast that you cant see the players you dumb shit. Dont you ever allude to my rants as moronic or i'll slam your face into the ground. You dont know shit about basketball or officiating. Shut Up.

[SpursGo25]

You still havent answered the question why the NBA keeps incompetent officials around? You dont have an answer for that dumb ass. So keep your mouth shut because you know something isnt right...

[SpursGo25]

The officiating is god awful league-wide and has been that way for years. You can't bash opposing teams' fans for complaining when you win and then promptly do they exact same thing they do when you lose.
See, even your dumb ass knows the officiating his horrible - you even said it. Changing your story now biatch?? Why does the league keep such god awful officials? Explain fucker...

[East Coast Babe]

Pictures? How's this for a picture:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatmisc&sort=techs&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=2&avg=pg&order=true&split=0

RNK TEAM OWN OPP OWN OPP OWN OPP OWN OPP DIF A/TO TECH
1 Detroit 24.0 18.8 7.1 5.9 6.0 3.5 10.8 13.3 -10.1 2.23 59

The formatting's screwed up, but the bottom line is that the Pistons led the league in technical fouls this year. If there's an objective measure for how much a team complains to the refs that would be it.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/sarahk336/0509-SPURS-MAVS-BMS-14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/sarahk336/0509-SPURS-MAVS-KG-2.jpg

This is kind of what I had in mind. Tim cannot believe he could have possibly gotten a foul (who knows for sure) but he is whining.

The second picture is a flop. The player behind him is close, but not pushing or fouling. But Manu is "flying".

[East Coast Babe]

Dirk was striding to the basket. A 7 foot tall man has a long stride and Dirk wasnt that close to Duncan at the moment he stepped on him. After he stepped on him he got a lot closer due to his momentum carrying him towards TD. Physics. Learn IT.

We won't agree here. But, I know what I saw on that replay.

[AceProfits]

All you Mavs fans do realize we only missed like 2-3 shots in the fourth yet we still lost?! You do realize that for a long stretch there in the fourth you didn't make any FG's only FT's (bailout's) from the refs! It seemed as if everytime we were about to pull away and get a defensive stop there came the wistle to save your asses.

I don't know why we are getting these calls but somebody has to say something. Why doesn't POP say anything? I mean its cool not to say something after game 2 but two games in a row? C'mon!

And for the people talking about the conspiracy theories here is my list of some of the worst officiated games of all time (tell me more I forget!):

1. 2000 Lakers vs. Blazers (Game 7): Lakers come back from down 15 in the greatest comeback in a game 7 of all time. Whoever remebers this game will remeber the Lakers run was fueled by some of the spookiest calls of all time. I will never forget the palyers faces every time the wistle would go.

2. 2002 Lakers vs. Kings (Game 6): Mike Bibby laying on the floor bleeding after receiving an elbow from Kobe. Everybody know all the rest, this one is infamous!

3. 2006 Lakers vs. Suns (Game 4): All I have to say is the leagues two time MVP getting malued and nobody did anything.

4.1993 Knicks vs. Bulls (Game 6): Yeah all of Charles Smith's shots were "clean" blocks by the Jordan and gang, yet Duncan fouled Dirk tonight :madrun !

Jordan... Lets not even go there, this guy never got called for anything! I mean he pushed Russel away and it is replayed everyday like here it is we don't care!

The NBA is very obvious in the fact that the refs are helping the league as a business!

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

You obviously dont know what you are talking about. The speed is faster, but not enough to warrant such shitty calls. You are making excuses for a league that is cheating you, me, and every other fan. Open your eyes. I didnt compare officiating a hs game to an nba game, but I know many hs officials who are very good and could do a better job if given the chance. The game isnt so fast that you cant see the players you dumb shit. Dont you ever allude to my rants as moronic or i'll slam your face into the ground. You dont know shit about basketball or officiating. Shut Up.

:lmao

You make a lot of unfounded assumptions...

There are some people at lower levels in any business that I'm sure could do a better job than people above them. There are many variables as to why these people don't get promoted: lack of interest, opportunity, politics, etc. Why would you think the NBA is different in regards to officiating?

Every major sports league has had controversial officiating during some of their most important games: '85 WS, '88 NBA Finals, any World Cup, 2006 SB, 2005 ALCS, etc etc...and defends it after the fact. Just look at what the NFL said after the SB...

Every league knows that bad officiating hurts the game and turns away fans. Why would the NBA promote it? The truth is that the officials they have now are the best they have AND can get.

The officiating is bad IMO, but only in consistency from game to game.

[MannyIsGod]

I hate when Spurs fans whine about the officials. Fuck it, move on.

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

Refs blew plenty of calls for the Mavs to. What about the Josh Howard block with 1:25 left, it was %100 clean. And did the refs make manu bounce the ball off his knee?

Thats seems to be the only call any Mavs fans can think of that were blown by the refs tonight. And it seems you are missing the point, was your best player taken out of the game in the closing minutes by a blown call?

[WalterBenitez]

I think the foul wasn`t because Nowitzki stepped on TD foot...

If TD looked straigh at Dirk's eyes was called a foul, ridiculous ...

But not only that is the reason, remember stupid move ... NAZR and Oberto losing 2 opps under the board, Barry walking in a good motion, Manu going bad from court, TP passing the ball (perfectly) to a refs, etc., etc., the only guy that played at his level was TD

[mffl89]

i'm not sure if this was already posted but here are some articles from a few years back in 2003...the spurs have been defending the refs until now because they have always gotten the benefit of the calls because they are a good defensive team...why can't that same reason be said for the mavs?

2003 Playoffs, number of free throws taken in the Spurs/Mavs series:

Game 2: Spurs 45 Mavs 22
Game 3: Spurs 26 Mavs 6
Game 4: Spurs 31 Mavs 13

By Jim Reeves
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

SAN ANTONIO - Just in case the Mavericks were contemplating the wild and crazy idea of turning the I-35 Series into a one-way street with all signs pointing north to Dallas, the Spurs and the NBA combined to slap that notion right out of their heads Wednesday night.

Technically speaking, it was a speed trap of the first order.

The Mavs never had a chance in Game 2 of the Western Conference Finals at the SBC Center. This one was so predictable, it was almost a cliché.

Call it an insane grassy-knoll theory or simply paranoid provincial journalism, but I'm convinced the last thing the NBA wanted was for the Mavs to be up 2-0 on the Spurs with the series headed back to Dallas on Friday night. Not good. Not good at all.

The Spurs' 119-106 victory made sure that traffic will continue to run both ways on I-35 for at least one more trip back to River City and probably more. David Stern can breathe a sigh of relief. He doesn't have two blowout conference finals on his hands.

Granted, chances are the Mavs weren't going to win this one anyway.

Teams don't usually win when their star player -- Dirk Nowitzki in the Mavs' case -- sits out eight minutes in the first half with three quick fouls, or when he hits just 4 of 11 shots while on the floor in the first two periods.

The Mavs don't usually win when Nowitzki, Steve Nash and Nick Van Exel go a combined 5-of-21 while the game is still somewhat in doubt.

And they almost never win when they get hit with five technical fouls in the first half alone. Or when head coach Don Nelson gets tossed before the end of the first quarter for the grievous sin of refusing to join his team in the huddle. Or when assistant coach Del Harris gets run for ... what? I'm still not sure what he did, but he was definitely ready to go.

They almost never win when the other team takes 23 more free throws or makes 26 of 28 in the first half alone.

But wouldn't it have been nice to have discovered what might have happened if the Big Three on the SBC Center floor had been Nowitzki, Nash and Michael Finley instead of overzealous refs Joey Crawford, **** Bavetta and Ted Bernhardt?

Heaven help me, I'm starting to sound like Mark Cuban.

On the other hand, if there wasn't another agenda at work Wednesday night, you'd have a hard time convincing the Mavs.

"It was tough to play through it," Van Exel said of the early one-sided officiating. "The only thing players wish is that players are able to decide and dictate the flow of the game. That's all we ask. I let it take me out of my game tonight."

It not only robbed the Mavs of Nowitzki's presence at a crucial point of the game, but it rattled their concentration and derailed any attempt at setting a quick first-half tempo.

"We have to have [Nowitzki] on the court to win games," Van Exel said.

And Big Nellie on the bench would have helped, too.

Nelson's may have been the most outrageous ejection in sports since umpire Terry Cooney tossed Boston's Roger Clemens for talking to himself in the American League playoffs years ago.

"The manner in which he was ejected tonight was surprising," assistant Donnie Nelson agreed. "That was peculiar."

Not to Crawford.

"[Nelson] tried to show me up, so I ejected him," Crawford told TNT's Craig Sager during a halftime report. "As for Del Harris, he wanted to get thrown out ... he even told me he did, so he came out on the court."

Sager's televised report was released in printed form to the media during the second half ... by the NBA, of course.

"I think the officiating has been awesome," was Cuban's on-the-record quote at halftime. "They've really stepped up and taken control like you'd expect NBA officials to do."

He kept a straight face when he said it, too, which is rather difficult when your tongue is practically sticking through your cheek.

Cuban was a little more straight-forward when he saw the NBA's release of the Sager report after the game.

"I don't understand, how does anybody show up a ref?" Cuban pleaded. "Please, give me an example of how a coach shows up a ref."

Apparently he does so by standing on the sideline, staring at him.

The Mavs made a final, gritty run at the Spurs, slicing a lead that had been as high as 28 points to eight midway through the final period, but that was as close as they would get.

"It took us a whole half to get our focus back, but by then the game was already determined," Van Exel said.

Determined even before the tip, perhaps?

"Did it look like that?" he countered.

Yeah, it kinda looked like that.

You're right. Next game I'll see if Cuban will loan me one of his Mavs' jerseys.

[themvp]

Refs suck!

That is obvius.

I was so pissed off. :pctoss :flipoff

[SA Gunslinger]

Joe Crawford was the lead official. I can't really complain because he always gives the Spurs a chance to win.

Hopefully we get Danny Crawford for game four.

[fyatuk]

Tim just said that in the post game conference.

'He didn't touch me, I didn't touch him. I was just getting out of the way when he was trying to create contact. There was zero contact on that play.'

Duncan's forearm got Nowitski low, and Nowitski cleared out high. That late in such a hotly contested playoff game between the 2 best teams in the west, it should have been a no-call though. Neither contact was that bad. Only reason a foul was called (I hope) is because Nowitski went down.

But you gotta give Nowitski props for sacking it up after that.

[kidd]

This reminds me of what happened in game 1 of Nets vs. Pacers in which Krstic got called for a touch foul. Man oh man are these game deciding ticky tack calls hard to swallow.

[SPARKY]

Replay would make the games too long. Missed calls and bad calls are part of the fabric of the game...

Perhaps a booth review starting at the 2 minute mark. No challenges or any of that crap. Just something that allows someone with access to a video feed to take a look at a call and overturn it if it's egregiously wrong. There's no reason today why games and series should be determined by an obviously poor call when the technology is there. Maybe limit it simply to all foul calls resulting in a trip to the line.

[bonesinaz]

Wasn't that when that bozo Nelson was doing the Hack a Bruce?

This quote is worth repeating.

[JoeChalupa]

Spurs could have won the game. Mistakes and not the officiating caused the loss.

[JohnMcClane]

Duncan was standing in the circle and tripped Dirk.. You aren't supposed to make any kind of contact where Duncan was..

And even if you disregard that call.. there was a blatant hit to Dirk's face I think by Duncan and there was no call.. the announcers said it.. Dirk even laughed at the refs that there was no call..

For Spurs to complain bout Dirk getting calls when Duncan gets calls with zero contact is a joke.. and for Duncan himself to say something.. it's an affront to basketball fans everywhere.

[dbestpro]

The Spurs fans are upset and rightfully so. We are the defending champions and yet we receive less respect than any team in the playoffs. I don't a believe the issue is referees. It's money. The NBA is losing its fan base state side and their trying to mix it up. The Spurs just don't draw, nationally. The refs are just the vehicle. People have been put to death with less evidence.

As for the game, the Mav's didn't even belong in the building las night and yet they were given their prize.

The Spurs won't complaint. They have too much class for that. The Mavericks? Well, they will do everything they can to whine themselves to a championship. The problem is if they can whine their way past the Spurs they will meet their match in the ultimate whine team the Pistons.

I just wish if this is the way the NBA is going to play it just let us know so we can quit wasting our time. Would I be happy if the roles where reversed? No. Winning at any cost is not winning at all. If this game had happened to the Mav's or the Pistons I would have been equally upset as I am a fan of the game first and foremost. It's just a shame that pro sports in the U.S. can't seem to keep the refs from overshadowing its games.

[GrandeDavid]

Absolute bullshit officiating on Duncan. The Spurs honestly had that game stolen from them by the refs (NBA).

[ALVAREZ6]

:flipoff Refs + the NBA


Now it will take an extra game to finish off these fucking Mavs

[picnroll]

Duncan was standing in the circle and tripped Dirk.. You aren't supposed to make any kind of contact where Duncan was..

And even if you disregard that call.. there was a blatant hit to Dirk's face I think by Duncan and there was no call.. the announcers said it.. Dirk even laughed at the refs that there was no call..

For Spurs to complain bout Dirk getting calls when Duncan gets calls with zero contact is a joke.. and for Duncan himself to say something.. it's an affront to basketball fans everywhere.
Tripped Dirk? wtf are you talking about. Dirk stepped on Duncan's foot. Trip was when Paker was diving to the basket on an over the top pass, got tripped and the ref swallowed the whistle. In case you never understood that's what a trip is.

Dirk is a flopping, flailing pussy.
At least manu has the bruises to show he takes hit. Dirk's got a pulled vagina.

Go back and watch the last quarter where Manu drives to the basket for a midrange from the left wing, Dampier shoves him in the chest backwards as he takes the shot, refs stares and does zero. Dampier is a no talent hack who grabs, holds, pushes on every play. He makes Madsen look like a finesse player.


there was a blatant hit to Dirk's face I think by Duncan and there was no call..

Sounds like you could have reffed that game.

[MavsFanSinceDayOne]

And for the people talking about the conspiracy theories here is my list of some of the worst officiated games of all time (tell me more I forget!):

1. 2000 Lakers vs. Blazers (Game 7): Lakers come back from down 15 in the greatest comeback in a game 7 of all time. Whoever remebers this game will remeber the Lakers run was fueled by some of the spookiest calls of all time. I will never forget the palyers faces every time the wistle would go.

2. 2002 Lakers vs. Kings (Game 6): Mike Bibby laying on the floor bleeding after receiving an elbow from Kobe. Everybody know all the rest, this one is infamous!

3. 2006 Lakers vs. Suns (Game 4): All I have to say is the leagues two time MVP getting malued and nobody did anything.

4.1993 Knicks vs. Bulls (Game 6): Yeah all of Charles Smith's shots were "clean" blocks by the Jordan and gang, yet Duncan fouled Dirk tonight :madrun !

Jordan... Lets not even go there, this guy never got called for anything! I mean he pushed Russel away and it is replayed everyday like here it is we don't care!

The NBA is very obvious in the fact that the refs are helping the league as a business!

Well, you said you wanted to know more injustices, so here it is:

5. 2003 - Mavs vs. Spurs - 2003 playoff series - The proof is in the stats. 209 total free throw attempts for the Spurs and only 125 free throw attempts for the Mavs. Below is the game by game break down of the pathetic officiating.

All I know is, I didn't hear the Spurs or their fans complaining back then.

Game 1: Mavs 50 Spurs 48
Game 2: Spurs 45 Mavs 22
Game 3: Spurs 26 Mavs 6
Game 4: Spurs 31 Mavs 13
Game 5: Spurs 38 Mavs 23
Game 6: Spurs 21 Mavs 11

[boutons_]

The Mavs were passive jumpshooters back in 2003, so they didn't get fouled on drives. Mavs play a different game now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

MavsFanSinceDayOne,

You can't make a fair comparison. That Dallas team did nothing but shoot jumpers, and the Spurs did nothing but score in the paint. A team that lives and dies in the paint is going to have more FT attempts than a team that's just jacking up jumpers.

[SA210]

I hate when Spurs fans whine about the officials. Fuck it, move on.
You're the sorry sellout that leaves Spurs games early and quits on your team.

I hate it when morons like you with pompous attitudes think they are above everyone else and come in to different threads to give a quick take to let everyone know they are stupid as if You are Mr. Know It All.

Get over yourself, sellout.

[Texas_Ranger]

Fuck you Refs and David Stern :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff

[LEONARD]

Unbelievable...here I thought this forum was different based on what I've read over the past few months, and here everybody (most anyway) is whining like little bitches...

:elephant :elephant :elephant

[JohnMcClane]

Gotta love Spurs.. they expect every call but ignore the fact their guys get away with murder.

It makes me sick you people are complaining aobut calls when you consider all the crap Bowen gets away with on Dirk..

You people need to really check yourself. You should be ashamed to win a championship with all the stuff Bowen gets away with. You don't derserve to win a championship.

I don't care how much Bowen works.. or how much of a blue collar guy he is.. a foul is a foul is a foul.. and that's the only way Bowen can guard Dirk.. is to foul him.

[v2freak]

A flop is a flop...and that's the only way Dirk can shake loose from Bowen...is to flop like a fish out of water

[bowenuglyduncanuncool]

Consensus on these boards holds that it is "obvious" (thanks Corso) that the refs have orders to make sure this series goes 7 games or is won by Dallas.

Anyone here want to make that claim? You guys remind me of a media personality called Riley Martin, who insists he attained knowledge of an alien race by being abducted. The refs are intentionally delivering this series to the mavs, George Bush bombed the world trade center, and the illuminati control the world. Believing this sort of thing won't make it true, it will only reveal a lot about anyone who is willing to believe this sort of wild speculation and their unwillingness to accept subjective reality.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Dude, any non-spur non mavs fan of hte game could tell we got jobbed last night. I made a commitment to not complain about the refs this time around, but that was too much.

We fucking got an inadvertant whistle that turned into a jump ball in game 2, then dirk steps on duncan's ankle and duncan fouls out. Theres no rhetoric to butter those up into something they are not. What they are: bull shit.

[picnroll]

All my vBookie money that this clown won't be here much longer.

[bowenuglyduncanuncool]

corso says "it is obvious that the refs have been instructed to take this series to seven," and you guys still hope to claim you are the one's in the mainstream? This is typical of you guys' willingness to believe anything about your team as long as it doesn't involve giving credit to your opponent. You won't find much of anyone outside of San Antonio who is going to say that the refs did not do their best to officiate the game as best they could, but instead threw away all ethical concerns to fix a game.

Not that any of this deserves serious consideration, but how does your conspiracy theory jive with Josh Howard being called for a foul on his textbook block of Manu Boohoo?

[bowenuglyduncanuncool]

"it's not even debatable

the refs have obviously been instructed to take this series to 7 games" --Corso

[LB7]

BULLSHIT!!! Did you watch game 2? The SPURS got fucked in that game too.
Now, this is what is funny. Spurs fans blaming a 22 pt loss on the refs. Ridiculous.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

There must be a global conspiracy. How else could an organization as great as the Mavs be held to 0 championships. :lol :lol :lol

[SPARKY]

The only consensus here is that Dallas fans are the worst on the internets.

[MavsIn5]

You people whine about as much as Tim Duncan after every single offensive and defensive possession.

[v2freak]

It wasn't soley the refs' fault. It would be ridiculous to say that, but one cannot ignore their involvement with the Mavs' runaway win.

[SPARKY]

You people whine about as much as Tim Duncan after every single offensive and defensive possession.

There's nothing like a little Ross Perot moment.

Anyways, there's also nothing like seeing Dallas fans count a series win before it happens. I seem to recall the same thing going on in '03. Oh well.

[MFFL]

The Spurs are a great team but unfortunately for the Spurs the Mavs are playing better. The last thing the Spurs fans need to do is sink to an all time low and start believing in conspiracy theories.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/hsc0388l.jpg

[Horry For 3!]

A lot of BS calls were made in the 2nd quarter of Game 2, which allowed the Mavs to outscore the Spurs by a lot. That which in the end lead to a 22 pt victory, it would of been a different game if it was close toward the end.

[Horry For 3!]

I usually say shit bout the refs but these last 2 games have been horrendous, especially last night's game. It was ridicious and sad to see the Spurs getting screwed, yet we still had a chance to win in the end but fucked up

[SPARKY]

So now all Spurs fans believe in conspiracy theories? I don't.

What I do believe is that Mav fans are the worst basketball fans in the NBA, and that's an accomplishment, considering the purple and gold clad crowd to the west is included.

Seriously, do any of you 'necks have anything better to do than troll the internets looking for attention? I mean, I guess if I'd suffered season after season of postseason disappointment I'd shoot off a load at the prospect of a 2nd round series win.

[ballhog]

corso says "it is obvious that the refs have been instructed to take this series to seven," and you guys still hope to claim you are the one's in the mainstream? This is typical of you guys' willingness to believe anything about your team as long as it doesn't involve giving credit to your opponent. You won't find much of anyone outside of San Antonio who is going to say that the refs did not do their best to officiate the game as best they could, but instead threw away all ethical concerns to fix a game.

Not that any of this deserves serious consideration, but how does your conspiracy theory jive with Josh Howard being called for a foul on his textbook block of Manu Boohoo?

Now that was a bad call. Doesn't make up for all the others though.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Spurs put themselves in a position to win the game, its just very scary when you think that if Barry does not get lucky in game 1, we're on the verge of getting swept...

[DampierAmGod]

Maybe one of you Spurs fans could explain to me how a whopping 6 FTA differencial equalizes a 22 point loss. The Spurs had their chances in the 3rd quarter to get back into the game, every time the Spurs made an offensive push they simply got lazy on defense and the Mavs answered.

Game 3 had some tight officiating in the end but it was going BOTH ways in the 4th, I don't understand why the Spurs didn't just go to the hole every possession like Dallas did. That's what made the difference in the game. However, what if Dallas had lost by one? What about the 2 calls for Parker late in the 4th when no one even touched him? What about the 2 calls Ginobli got when he flopped like a little bitch? Morale of the story is both teams got questionable calls, Dallas simply was more aggressive. You should thank the refs because if they hadn't started calling ticky tack fouls against the Mavs at the end of the 1st and 2nd quarter it would have been another blowout.

[whottt]

Maybe one of you Spurs fans could explain to me how a whopping 6 FTA differencial equalizes a 22 point loss. The Spurs had their chances in the 3rd quarter to get back into the game, every time the Spurs made an offensive push they simply got lazy on defense and the Mavs answered.

.


Thje FTA differential thing is lame anyway....that's not what it's about, and some nights no one is doing the Spurs any favors by putting them on the FT line...

But Ducan fouling out hurts, Spurs players getting called for fouls for hustling hurts, and Spurs getting elbowed in the mouth or shoved under the rim, and getting fouls called on them for it, is a huge load of BS.

[LEONARD]

The only consensus here is that Dallas fans are the worst on the internets.

I love doing a bit and getting the Spurs fan fired up...this place is hilarious...

The Spurs is all sports fans in SA have, so it's like the end of the world if the Spurs don't win a ring. Stars just finished up, Rangers are playing, and the Cowboys just drafted and are getting close to training camp... :fro

[DampierAmGod]

Thje FTA differential thing is lame anyway....that's not what it's about, and some nights no one is doing the Spurs any favors by putting them on the FT line...

But Ducan fouling out hurts, Spurs players getting called for fouls for hustling hurts, and Spurs getting elbowed in the mouth or shoved under the rim, and getting fouls called on them for it, is a huge load of BS.

The lack of a big FTA differencial proves fouls and the refs were not the reason the Spurs lost. Again, how does 6 more FTA by Dallas account for a 22 point loss? That's 3-4 calls. Hardly relevant in a blowout.

If Duncan doesn't want to foul out he shouldn't commit fouls. All big men are getting officiated stricter this year, I bet you didn't mind in game 2 when Dallas was over the foul limit like 4 minutes into the game and both centers got in foul trouble real quick. As for the hussle plays, hussle plays are fine. Devin Harris made a great hussle play last night, and he didn't foul. Spurs should watch that game tape. Also, elbows with no call? Ron Artest's face says hi, and left me a message to ask where the call was there. Not to mention, maybe refs would take Ginobli a bit more serious if he didn't flop like a bitch every chance he gets. It's like watcing Vlade Divac Jr out there.

[SPARKY]

I love doing a bit and getting the Spurs fan fired up...this place is hilarious...

The Spurs is all sports fans in SA have, so it's like the end of the world if the Spurs don't win a ring. Stars just finished up, Rangers are playing, and the Cowboys just drafted and are getting close to training camp... :fro

Yeah, obviously your life is full.

[ponky]

2003 WCF (Spurs/Mavs)

# of FTs taken, not made, but taken:

Game 1 - Spurs 48 Mavs 50 (Bennett Salvatore, Ron Garretson, Greg Willard)
Game 2 - Spurs 45 Mavs 22 (Dick Bavetta, Joey Crawford, Monty McCutchen)
Game 3 - Spurs 26 Mavs 6 (Danny Crawford, Bob Delaney, Bill Spooner)
Game 4 - Spurs 31 Mavs 13 (Joe DeRosa, Bernie Fryer, Derrick Stafford)
Game 5 - Spurs 38 Mavs 23 (Mike Callahan, Jack Nies, Eddie F. Rush)
Game 6 - Spurs 21 Mavs 11 (Ron Garretson, Steve Javie, Tom Washington)

Quit yer bitchin'. It's all consistent, no one's out to *get* the Spurs and gang up on them.

[Bloodline666]

Okay, if any of those bullshit calls against the Spurs were "make-up calls", then I'd like to see some Mavs fans give some detailed examples of bullshit calls made against the Mavs in Games 1 and 2. And trust me, the Game 2 officiating was a LOT worse than Game 3's officiating. When a ref lets a defensive player get away with goaltending and credit him for a rebound in the process, you know the officiating has gone to hell. Said goaltending violation that was a non-call wasn't one of those that required the ref's best judgement. It wasn't a blocked shot that looked on it's way down. It wasn't a hand going up the net. It wasn't grabbing the rim while the ball was near that restricted zone. It wasn't slapping a ball against the backboard in a shot-block attempt. It was a ball being grabbed while it was inside that cylinder, and it was blatantly obvious. I actually had to ask a fan who was at the game to be able to verify it. And that's only a small example of how fucked up Game 2's officiating was.

That said, I doubt we would've won Game 2 even if the officiating was fair and correct, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have been blown out in Game 2 had it not been for the bullshit calls.


2003 WCF (Spurs/Mavs)

# of FTs taken, not made, but taken:

Game 1 - Spurs 48 Mavs 50 (Bennett Salvatore, Ron Garretson, Greg Willard)
Game 2 - Spurs 45 Mavs 22 (Dick Bavetta, Joey Crawford, Monty McCutchen)
Game 3 - Spurs 26 Mavs 6 (Danny Crawford, Bob Delaney, Bill Spooner)
Game 4 - Spurs 31 Mavs 13 (Joe DeRosa, Bernie Fryer, Derrick Stafford)
Game 5 - Spurs 38 Mavs 23 (Mike Callahan, Jack Nies, Eddie F. Rush)
Game 6 - Spurs 21 Mavs 11 (Ron Garretson, Steve Javie, Tom Washington)

Quit yer bitchin'. It's all consistent, no one's out to *get* the Spurs and gang up on them.
Well, also take into account the fact that the rosters on both teams were different in 2003 than they are now. And also take note that two players who were on the Mavs roster 3 years ago are on the Spurs roster now. Which means, one could easily jump to the conclusion that some refs are targetting the team that has a certain player on their roster. Take Nick Van Exel, for example. He was on the Mavs roster 3 years ago. Now, on the Spurs roster. Apparently, he has a bad history with Steve Javie dating back to a regular season game a few years back, so I think Javie would want to keep a closer eye on NVE (as seen in Game 2). Also, Michael Finley, the second guy on the Mavs roster 3 years ago that's now on the Spurs roster. You might remember a Spurs/Mavs game the very next year where Finley and Bowen got into a scuffle. I don't remember who the officials were on that game, but I do remember Finley and then-Mavs head coach Don Nelson getting ejected. And I guess we all know the irony of that incident; Finley later becomes a teammate to Bowen (I think Brent Barry also got into a fight with Bowen in the 2002 playoffs while Brent was still playing for the Sonics). Anyway, if one of those refs whose names are in bold worked that game in March of 2004 that had the Finley/Bowen scuffle, then chances are, that ref may be keeping a close eye on Finley. I also forget who the refs were that worked that Sonics/Spurs game this season where Bruce kicked Ray Allen in the back. If it was one of the refs that worked Game 2, again...that ref would have reason to keep a close eye on Bowen.

The point I'm trying to make here is, I'm not saying refs target the team that has players that particular ref has had problems with before, or worked a game where that particular player got involved in something. I'm saying there's a possibility that is the case.

[spurschick]

Below is an interesting article that Ric Bucher/ESPN wrote back in February, but then updated a couple of weeks ago. There are a few interesting items in it, especially that this is the youngest team of refs they've had in years.

As for conspiracy theorists, if Stern were that interested in compromising the game for high dollars, the Lakers and the Heat would be headed towards the Finals. Also, it would be impossible to involved 60+ people, the number of refs in the league, albeit fewer in the playoffs, along with directors, supervisors, etc., in any kind of conspiracy without getting busted.

Has game officiating seemingly gotten worse in the past couple of years... yes. But some of that may be due to lack of experience. Granted, Javee, Bavetta, Crawford... these guys have plenty of experience, but one guy can't call an entire game and these veteran officials are working within teams that may have less experience than everyone would like.

One thing is for sure – nobody wants to believe that a championship is decided by anyone other than the two teams involved.

With that, I bring you Ric Bucher.

**********************************************

The truth about refereeing in the NBA
By Ric Bucher

Joey Crawford, Nolan Fine and Violet Palmer have commandeered a corner of the bar for a late-night meal in a Sea-Tac hotel lobby lounge. They've got one eye on their plates of food, one eye on the TV screen above their heads, one ear on their conversation and one ear saved for their cell phones. When you're a referee, you're used to having your senses working in different directions.

Highlights of their game that night, Miami at Seattle, appear on the TV screen. Conversation stops. All eyes are on the screen now. The game gets a passing mention. The crew appears to collectively exhale. A cell phone rings and they momentarily tense up again, until they realize it's not one of theirs.

Violet Palmer and her crew review more game tape than coaches.
It was a meaningless game, for the most part, one of the many that come and go with relatively little notice. Neither Ralph Nader, Pat Riley, Mark Cuban, Tommy Heinsohn nor the bearded, over-caffeinated dude wearing a flannel shirt in Section 109 made a fuss about the Sonics' 100-71 win. Neither, apparently, did Ed Rush, supervisor of officials, or Matt Winick, the vice president of game operations. No matter. This is one of the thousand aspects about officials the general public -- including the part that plays and coaches in the NBA -- doesn't know: The officials are scrutinized by their administrators and themselves, far more harshly than anyone else.

In the normal midday meeting at the hotel, Crawford cautioned the crew that Riley might turn the game into an ugly scrum, knowing that his young road-weary team had no chance of winning and had been pummeled the night before in Portland.

These elements, incidentally, are mandatory for every ref to know -- the disruptive personalities on every team, how long a team has been on the road, how their previous games have gone, what changes they've had to make to their personnel, their favorite plays, what other controversies that might affect a team's or player's demeanor. This, for every game they work. Aside from the 59-page rule book, the 76-page case book and 71-page official's manual, of course, which is tested with weekly quizzes and regular videotape you-make-the-call tests online.

None of which, however, can stop a coach bent on wreaking havoc. Riley did uglify the game, yanking rookie Caron Butler after 30 seconds because Rashard Lewis scored on the tip-off. Riley's not-too-subtle message to his young team: I don't care if you're tired or overmatched, I want you to take a piece out of them. Former Sonic Vladimir Stepania had his own grudge, chapped that Seattle dealt him two years earlier to the Knicks, who then cut him. A second-quarter loose ball in Miami's backcourt results in Stepania diving on top of Desmond Mason and elbowing him in the scramble for the ball. Crawford and Fine are already up court, but Palmer is trailing the play when Mason and Stepania square off. She jumps between them and Ts both.

In the locker room at halftime, Crawford isn't happy that Palmer couldn't tell him where the ball was when she fired off the Ts, which determines how the game should be re-started. "Joey, I looked for it but I was trying to keep them apart," she says. He also asks Fine if, in hindsight, he should've called a flagrant foul on "Seattle's foreign kid" (Vladimir Radmanovic) for a hard foul to stop a Stepania layup shortly before halftime. "I'm saying it's just something to think about," Crawford says.

Then they review tape of Palmer's blocking call on Travis Best. Crawford, hoping to keep Miami from turning the game into a wrestling match, would've called a charge on principle, because it was a 50-50 play and that kind of call tones down a game's physicality, whereas the other encourages it. But the replay shows Palmer's call is technically correct. "Way to go, Violet," Crawford says. This is a case, however, when the technically correct call may not always be the ideal call. If calling Best for a charge might've stopped the second-half shenanigans, the league and every official would've happily taken that trade.

The Heat are down by 16 and have no chance, but Crawford's fears are fully realized. Gary Payton and Butler square off and draw Ts from Fine, then the Sonics' Reggie Evans and Stepania tangle battling for a loose ball. That's two more Ts and Stepania is gone. Midway through the fourth quarter, Lewis and Best go nose-to-nose and a mini-melee breaks out. Two more Ts. As the refs walk under the stands to their locker room, Heat security director David Holcombe informs Crawford that Lewis threw a punch at Best.

Fine rushes for the videotape in the locker room. It takes three different camera-angle replays and a freeze frame to detect Lewis putting a fist to Best's chin as teammates prevent him from actually throwing it. Referees are required to call either Rush or Winick immediately if the game is "atypical." Eight Ts qualifies. The post-game report includes a section for "Personality Problems."

"Everybody," mutters Crawford as he pecks at the keys.

In doing my magazine piece on Palmer, I spent time with four different crews, observing their game-day meeting, their pre-game conference, their locker room chat at halftime and their post-game wrap-up. I saw them review more tape than some teams do. I heard them quiz each other on arcane rules or test each other with what-ifs, situations that the average fan, player or coach has no idea what the correct call would be. They actually get a twisted sort of pleasure trying to stump each other, like the guys in "Diner" testing each other on the B-side songs of obscure 45s.

I saw the officials scrutinize plays the public might've been aware were questionable and more than a few that only they caught as possibly errant. I saw them study tape to get down what league authorities believe needed special emphasis -- defensive three seconds, lane violations, defenders walking up under shooters after they've released the ball. Teams are constantly pushing the boundaries, seeing what they can get away with and it's a never-ending, ever-changing battle.

Which brings us to the harsh truth: you, Joe or Josephine Fan, complain loudest about the aspect of the game you least know. The announcers and analysts you listen to for help know no more than you and that's difficult to admit because I know most of them. I admire Jeff Van Gundy, in that he talks about officials from a coach's perspective, which is what he knows and he's invariably on the money. Other than Mike Breen, the rest are poking around in the dark, yet bellowing as if they should be taken as authorities. Danny Ainge? One of my favorite people. Great insight to playing and coaching. Clueless when it comes to what referees do and how they do it.

Harsher truth: Most players and coaches aren't any better. Why? Mainly because they're interested in tricking the refs, not seeing the game from their perspective. Which is OK until they start talking about what refs do and why they do it.

Yes, I saw the referees make mistakes. Palmer missed a double-dribble violation by Ricky Davis right in front of her. To avoid a possible late whistle, Davis immediately hoisted a 3-point shot. The ball caromed off the rim and hit the shot clock, making it Boston's ball. Antoine Walker still screamed and got T'ed for it. Reviewing the play at halftime, Palmer said, "Thank God it hit the top. Thank you, Jesus." Then Leroy Richardson told Walker they had indeed missed the play but that still didn't warrant going berserk.

As it so happens, one of Davis' tricks is to dribble with one hand and bring the second hand over as if he's about to stop his dribble, thereby freezing the defender. Rest assured every official working his games from now on will know to watch that move closely.

Which is really maybe the point of all this. The referees are indeed far from perfect. They know that. They will tell you that. Some have paid the fines and served the suspensions to prove that. The league, as of now, doesn't believe you need to know who those officials are, anymore than teams are required to announce player fines for team infractions.

The current crew of officials are also younger than they've been in a long time, thanks to a slew of venerable officials retiring, with more leaving in the next few years. They are forever playing a game of catch-up, despite vast improvements in training and technology and technique. Media scrutiny is higher than ever. But they have no choice but to continue the pursuit. They don't expect that you'll ever understand. The best they can hope for is that someday, you might know enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[MavsFanSinceDayOne]

2003 WCF (Spurs/Mavs)

# of FTs taken, not made, but taken:

Game 1 - Spurs 48 Mavs 50 (Bennett Salvatore, Ron Garretson, Greg Willard)
Game 2 - Spurs 45 Mavs 22 (Dick Bavetta, Joey Crawford, Monty McCutchen)
Game 3 - Spurs 26 Mavs 6 (Danny Crawford, Bob Delaney, Bill Spooner)
Game 4 - Spurs 31 Mavs 13 (Joe DeRosa, Bernie Fryer, Derrick Stafford)
Game 5 - Spurs 38 Mavs 23 (Mike Callahan, Jack Nies, Eddie F. Rush)
Game 6 - Spurs 21 Mavs 11 (Ron Garretson, Steve Javie, Tom Washington)

Quit yer bitchin'. It's all consistent, no one's out to *get* the Spurs and gang up on them.

If - and that's a big IF - but if the Mavs are getting the benefit of the referee calls then it is justice for us (Mavs) because of the above stats from the 2003 playoffs. The Mavs got hosed in that playoff series by the refs, and though I don't think the Spurs are getting hosed in this series, IF the Spurs are then it is only right after what happened in 2003.

Someone earlier alluded to the idea that the reason the Spurs got more FT's in that 2003 series is because they were more aggressive than the Mavs. Well, if that was true then I say the reason the Mavs have gotten more FT's in last night's game is because it could be the Mavs have been more aggressive than the Spurs. Did you ever stop to think about that? Or is your idea of a team being aggressive only reserved for the Spurs?

[whottt]

Pssst...about the FT differential...
Equal number of FTA does not mean the game was fairly officiated...if one teams commits 75 fouls and the other commits 10 and they both shoot an equal number of FT's...that doesn't mean the game was fairly officiated.


RE 2003:

Mavs were last in the league in FTA per game for the year that year, beccause they had no inside presence and were a jump shooting team...

The Spurs were #1 defensive team in the NBA that year(like this year) and the team was built around two Hall of Fame caliber defensive bigmen and an All NBA perimeter defender, offensively they were built around a 2 time MVP post player and two penetrating guards..

The Mavs didn't play D and shot J's....why should the FT's have been equal?



This year...Well the Spurs still have a 9 time all NBA defensive big, a 6 time ALL NBA perimeter defender, a 2 time MVP post scorer, 2 All Star guards among the best in the NBA at penetration...and a PG that lead the NBA in points in the paint...Again, the Spurs were the #1 defensive team in the NBA.


The Mavs have....a 7 foot All Star jump shooter who is just now developing elementary post moves(as he admits in interviews), no ALL NBA defenders,...

So how is it that Dirk Nowtizki is all of a sudden the second coming of Bill Russell on Defense, Tim Duncan all of a sudden plays D like a rookie....and Parker can't buy a basket?

Talk about FTA all you want...but Bullshit is Bullshit and FTA indicate nothing.

[mavsfan1000]

The mavs only shot 5 3 pointers the whole night and were attacking the rim. The spurs were forced to foul a lot. The way the spurs guard the perimeter the mavs are forced to play this way and the spurs have yet been able to stop the penetration as well.

[picnroll]

Attacking the rim? With Dirk wouldn't it be more like stumbling toward the rim?

[Winnipeg_Spur]

So how is it that Dirk Nowtizki is all of a sudden the second coming of Bill Russell on Defense.
That's the one thing that's surprised me about the officiating in this series, they don't call fouls on Dirk. Manu and Parker have created so much contact with Dirk but they never blow the whistle...

[MavsFanSinceDayOne]

Pssst...about the FT differential...
Equal number of FTA does not mean the game was fairly officiated...if one teams commits 75 fouls and the other commits 10 and they both shoot an equal number of FT's...that doesn't mean the game was fairly officiated.


RE 2003:

Mavs were last in the league in FTA per game for the year that year, beccause they had no inside presence and were a jump shooting team...

The Spurs were #1 defensive team in the NBA that year(like this year) and the team was built around two Hall of Fame caliber defensive bigmen and an All NBA perimeter defender, offensively they were built around a 2 time MVP post player and two penetrating guards..

The Mavs didn't play D and shot J's....why should the FT's have been equal?



This year...Well the Spurs still have a 9 time all NBA defensive big, a 6 time ALL NBA perimeter defender, a 2 time MVP post scorer, 2 All Star guards among the best in the NBA at penetration...and a PG that lead the NBA in points in the paint...Again, the Spurs were the #1 defensive team in the NBA.


The Mavs have....a 7 foot All Star jump shooter who is just now developing elementary post moves(as he admits in interviews), no ALL NBA defenders,...

So how is it that Dirk Nowtizki is all of a sudden the second coming of Bill Russell on Defense, Tim Duncan all of a sudden plays D like a rookie....and Parker can't buy a basket?

Talk about FTA all you want...but Bullshit is Bullshit and FTA indicate nothing.

Well I remember that 2003 playoff series and I remember the disbelief by everyone - except the Spurs and their fans - about how everyone could not believe the number of calls and the type of calls that went in the Spurs favor. In fact, there was even a newspaper article written about the craziness of those refs calls (you can see this article in which someone posted on this thread. It is on page 22 of this thread if you want to see it.)

I agree the Spurs back then were a great defensive team and the Mavs were more of a jump shooting team. But in that playoff series the refs went way overboard in awarding just about everything to the Spurs. I watched that series and there was no way the Spurs should've gotten the massive number of calls in their favor that they did. As the article suggested, the NBA felt it was in their best interest that the Spurs won.

Fast-forward now to the present 2006 playoff series. The Spurs are still a very good defensive team, but they have gotten older. And as for the Mavs... they are no longer that jump-shooting, no defense team of 2003. Avery Johnson has turned them into a well rounded, tough team that plays both offense AND defense now. That is why they are getting the calls.

Move over Spurs, there's a new sherriff in town!

[timvp]

Dallas fans are the worst on the internets.

:tu

[LakerHater]

:tu:clap

[Brutalis]

Pssst...about the FT differential...
Equal number of FTA does not mean the game was fairly officiated...if one teams commits 75 fouls and the other commits 10 and they both shoot an equal number of FT's...that doesn't mean the game was fairly officiated.


RE 2003:

Mavs were last in the league in FTA per game for the year that year, beccause they had no inside presence and were a jump shooting team...

The Spurs were #1 defensive team in the NBA that year(like this year) and the team was built around two Hall of Fame caliber defensive bigmen and an All NBA perimeter defender, offensively they were built around a 2 time MVP post player and two penetrating guards..

The Mavs didn't play D and shot J's....why should the FT's have been equal?



This year...Well the Spurs still have a 9 time all NBA defensive big, a 6 time ALL NBA perimeter defender, a 2 time MVP post scorer, 2 All Star guards among the best in the NBA at penetration...and a PG that lead the NBA in points in the paint...Again, the Spurs were the #1 defensive team in the NBA.


The Mavs have....a 7 foot All Star jump shooter who is just now developing elementary post moves(as he admits in interviews), no ALL NBA defenders,...

So how is it that Dirk Nowtizki is all of a sudden the second coming of Bill Russell on Defense, Tim Duncan all of a sudden plays D like a rookie....and Parker can't buy a basket?

Talk about FTA all you want...but Bullshit is Bullshit and FTA indicate nothing.


Ownage.

[SA Gunslinger]

Attacking the rim? With Dirk wouldn't it be more like stumbling toward the rim?

Christ. I'm glad someone else noticed. I was waiting for Chris Berman to break out the "he's stumblin', he's bumblin' to the rim!"

Nowitzki went to the line 24 times. 24 FREAKING TIMES! He isn't Kobe. He isn't Shaq. A seven foot jump shooter getting respect from a crew lead by Joey Crawford. The end of the world is near if the Spurs don't win this series.

I believe because the Spurs will not allow armageddon on their watch.

[MavsFanSinceDayOne]

Ownage.

How was whottt's post "ownage"? I completely discredited whottt's post with my post on this page (message #604).

I "owned" him.

[samikeyp]

MavsFanSinceDayOne....

Since 1980?

[MavsFanSinceDayOne]

MavsFanSinceDayOne....

Since 1980?

Are you asking how long I've been a Mavs fan? Yes, I've been an avid fan since 1980.

[DampierAmGod]

Pssst...about the FT differential...
Equal number of FTA does not mean the game was fairly officiated...if one teams commits 75 fouls and the other commits 10 and they both shoot an equal number of FT's...that doesn't mean the game was fairly officiated.


RE 2003:

Mavs were last in the league in FTA per game for the year that year, beccause they had no inside presence and were a jump shooting team...

The Spurs were #1 defensive team in the NBA that year(like this year) and the team was built around two Hall of Fame caliber defensive bigmen and an All NBA perimeter defender, offensively they were built around a 2 time MVP post player and two penetrating guards..

The Mavs didn't play D and shot J's....why should the FT's have been equal?



This year...Well the Spurs still have a 9 time all NBA defensive big, a 6 time ALL NBA perimeter defender, a 2 time MVP post scorer, 2 All Star guards among the best in the NBA at penetration...and a PG that lead the NBA in points in the paint...Again, the Spurs were the #1 defensive team in the NBA.


The Mavs have....a 7 foot All Star jump shooter who is just now developing elementary post moves(as he admits in interviews), no ALL NBA defenders,...

So how is it that Dirk Nowtizki is all of a sudden the second coming of Bill Russell on Defense, Tim Duncan all of a sudden plays D like a rookie....and Parker can't buy a basket?

Talk about FTA all you want...but Bullshit is Bullshit and FTA indicate nothing.


When you have to make such a ridiculous hypothetical situation to try to make a point, why even bother to post it? How the **** would a team that commits 75 fouls shoot the same amount of FT's as a team who commits 10? Maybe if you'd looked at the game stats, you'd see Dallas was actually called for MORE fouls than the Spurs in game 2.

Your stats on the 2002-2003 season are wrong, Dallas did not shoot the lowest amount of FT's a game that season, the Knicks did. Followed by the Heat. Then the Sonics, then Dallas. You're making another mistake by simply taking regular season statistics and trying to apply them to playoff basketball. Not only are the playoffs a whole new type of season but teams adjust and teams can play completely different just to match up with their opponent. I guess you missed all 7 games of the Suns/Lakers matchup in round 1? Because I mean hey... going by the regular season stats, Bryant should have been lighting the Suns up for 40 points + every game on the way to LA being swept 4-0. But instead they changed their playstyle to suit the matchup and stretched it out to 7 by pounding the ball inside. What leads you to believe the FT's were equal? Want to see the FT line for the series?

Mavs: 96 FTA
Spurs:171 FTA

Pretty big difference there. However, I don't see Mavs fans still whining about that, I see plenty of Spurs fans whining about that series again after game 3 last night and YOU GUYS WON THE ****ING SERIES Do you not remember game two when the Spurs shot like 30 more FT's than Dallas? Or what about game 3 when Dallas got an amazing SIX FTA for the game?

This year the Spurs have had trouble defending the Mavs with Harris each time they've played. They are older than 2 years ago, they are exhausted and banged up after a long series and a long first round series and Dallas is simply too fast for them. Comparing regular season tendencies to playoff games is beyond ridiculous. I mean hey, we have a completely different PG starting for the SOLE REASON to penetrate your "all world" interior defense and rape it to hell. It's worked in 2 games now and that's why the Spurs have lost no matter what stupid logic you want to try and come up with. :lol

[whottt]

When you have to make such a ridiculous hypothetical situation to try to make a point, why even bother to post it?

So even the ridiculously stupid people will be able to get it...Alas you prove that it did not work.


How the **** would a team that commits 75 fouls shoot the same amount of FT's as a team who commits 10? Maybe if you'd looked at the game stats, you'd see Dallas was actually called for MORE fouls than the Spurs in game 2.

I see the point I was making zipped right over your head...

Idiot...the point is that you can't simply look at FT differential and tell if the officiating altered the course of the game or if the game was fairly officiated.

If you understand that simple statement...then you should also slowly be realizing how stupid you look right now...


Before you think yourself qualified to engage me in any kind of basketball discussion...

I want you to take a look at the point I was making...take a look at how stupid your response to it was...realize that you are an idiot...take 5 minutes to come up with a suitable apology...and then take a few more days to attempt to come up with a logical rebuttal using linear thought that is actually a response to that point.

Apologize for your stupidity, and apologize for forcing me to have to explain the obvious to you. Then shut up.






Your stats on the 2002-2003 season are wrong, Dallas did not shoot the lowest amount of FT's a game that season, the Knicks did. Followed by the Heat. Then the Sonics, then Dallas.

Idiot...again you open your moith in ignorance...

Were the Knicks in the playoffs that year? Were the Heat? Were the Sonics?

Ok aside from the fact that even using your own astounding stat finding capablity, the Mavs were just about the worst in the league...

Ask yourself what relevance you could possibly attatch to a playoff discussion by the inclusion of 3 teams that did not make the playoffs?




You're making another mistake by simply taking regular season statistics and trying to apply them to playoff basketball. Not only are the playoffs a whole new type of season but teams adjust and teams can play completely different just to match up with their opponent. I


Please kill yourself...

I know you are not a Mav fan explaining playoff basketball to me?

This cannot be happening...not even Mav fan can be this stupid. Mav fan, of the run and gun worst defense in the NBA Dallas Mavs of 2003 is attempting to explain to me playoff ball? All the while missing the forrest for the trees?

If you understand playoff basketball..then you would know why the Mavs no longer play that style, you would also understand why, when they suddenly found themselves being forced to play D midway through that series, that it is very unlikely they commited as few shooting fouls as the Spurs....and why they now play a style very similar to the style of the Spurs...the style the Spurs played then.



The rest of your stupid rant has been snipped...

Realize you are stupid...apologize for causing me to waste precious moments of my life explaining a simple point to you, and then think long and hard about the game, how it is played, and it's history, before attempting to engage me in a discussion about basketball ever again....

[SPARKY]

Are you asking how long I've been a Mavs fan? Yes, I've been an avid fan since 1980.

Good one.

[timvp]

This is when it's good to have whottt on your side.

:smokin

[SPARKY]

This year the Spurs have had trouble defending the Mavs with Harris each time they've played. They are older than 2 years ago, they are exhausted and banged up after a long series and a long first round series and Dallas is simply too fast for them. Comparing regular season tendencies to playoff games is beyond ridiculous. I mean hey, we have a completely different PG starting for the SOLE REASON to penetrate your "all world" interior defense and rape it to hell. It's worked in 2 games now and that's why the Spurs have lost no matter what stupid logic you want to try and come up with. :lol

Actually, the interior D is weak because Popovich has opted to not play his top 2 centers. Otherwise, you might have a point.

[SPARKY]

Why is it that Mavs fans seem like Cowboys fans on summer vacation?

[whottt]

This is when it's good to have whottt on your side.

:smokin


The feeling is mutual :tu

And you can always count on that my Silver and Black Brother :fro


Seen brother Chump lately? ;)

[T Park]

Why is it that Mavs fans seem like Cowboys fans on summer vacation?

:lol

because THEY ARE!!!

[T-Pain]

fuckin REFS!!!!!! :lol

[DampierAmGod]

So even the ridiculously stupid people will be able to get it...Alas you prove that it did not work.

I see the point I was making zipped right over your head...

Idiot...the point is that you can't simply look at FT differential and tell if the officiating altered the course of the game or if the game was fairly officiated.

If you understand that simple statement...then you should also slowly be realizing how stupid you look right now...

Before you think yourself qualified to engage me in any kind of basketball discussion...

I want you to take a look at the point I was making...take a look at how stupid your response to it was...realize that you are an idiot...take 5 minutes to come up with a suitable apology...and then take a few more days to attempt to come up with a logical rebuttal using linear thought that is actually a response to that point.

Apologize for your stupidity, and apologize for forcing me to have to explain the obvious to you. Then shut up.

Wow, someone is pissy because they got fucking owned. Can you type one sentence without a weak ass insult? :lol

The "point" you were trying to make, if any point can even be created using such a fucking retarded analogy, is irrelevant to this situation because we weren't talking about some 2 or 3 point game we're talking about a game that was won in the second quarter and was won by over 20 points. A blowout. Now, when you have calmed down and want to speak at the big boy table come back and explain to me how such a small FTA differencial makes any sort of difference in a game that both teams were getting fouls called on them yet one team lost by over 20. And please, I don't want to see any more fucking stupid comments about one team getting a million fouls compared to another and no way to tell if a game is being officiated fairly because it's all a crock of shit when you look at simple numbers.





Idiot...again you open your moith in ignorance...

Were the Knicks in the playoffs that year? Were the Heat? Were the Sonics?

Ok aside from the fact that even using your own astounding stat finding capablity, the Mavs were just about the worst in the league...

Ask yourself what relevance you could possibly attatch to a playoff discussion by the inclusion of 3 teams that did not make the playoffs?

Please kill yourself...

You just might be the whiniest Spurs fan I have come across on this forum so far junior and believe me that is saying A LOT :lol Did you say "Dallas got to the line less than any other playoff team"? No, you didn't. You said they were the worst in the league, junior. Maybe you should have paid attention in debate class. When you are attempting (and failing, in your case) to sound informed on something you not only bring the correct facts but you present them correctly. If you meant to say "worst playoff team" that's one thing but you didn't, so don't go getting your panties all bunched up because you were fucking wrong in what you said. Now, if you want to backpedal and say the worst in the playoffs that's fine but the point still remains, playoff basketball and regular season basketball are two different beasts.




I know you are not a Mav fan explaining playoff basketball to me? This cannot be happening...not even Mav fan can be this stupid. Mav fan, of the run and gun worst defense in the NBA Dallas Mavs of 2003 is attempting to explain to me playoff ball? All the while missing the forrest for the trees?

If you understand playoff basketball..then you would know why the Mavs no longer play that style, you would also understand why, when they suddenly found themselves being forced to play D midway through that series, that it is very unlikely they commited as few shooting fouls as the Spurs....and why they now play a style very similar to the style of the Spurs...the style the Spurs played then.

Well, someone needs to explain basketball to you because you obviously don't know shit. Where in this retarded rant are you backing up your stupid non-existant points whatsoever? You have the maturity of my 3 year old son, junior. I completely debunked every single piece of shit arguement you tried to make and all you can come back with is trying to make some type of irrelevant point about the Mavs changing playstyles. Hey junior, the Mavs style of play changed because the Mavs coach changed. Yea, the Mavs style of play was never going to win a title, everyone and their dog knows that but what the hell does it have to do with anything I said, jackass? None of that changes the fact that you said the FT's in 2003 were even when in reality SA had nearly double the FTA, which only backs up the fact that Dallas is playing fundamental playoff basketball now and that's the reason your Spurs are down 2-1, doesn't have shit to do with any refs.




The rest of your stupid rant has been snipped...

Realize you are stupid...apologize for causing me to waste precious moments of my life explaining a simple point to you, and then think long and hard about the game, how it is played, and it's history, before attempting to engage me in a discussion about basketball ever again....

I'd snip something too if it made me look like a complete fucking moron :lol You see, any jackass on the internet can sit and sling insults. You need to add some meat to your shit arguements though, you're coming across as the dumbest bastard on this entire forum.

[mFFL03]

When you have to make such a ridiculous hypothetical situation to try to make a point, why even bother to post it? How the **** would a team that commits 75 fouls shoot the same amount of FT's as a team who commits 10? Maybe if you'd looked at the game stats, you'd see Dallas was actually called for MORE fouls than the Spurs in game 2.

Your stats on the 2002-2003 season are wrong, Dallas did not shoot the lowest amount of FT's a game that season, the Knicks did. Followed by the Heat. Then the Sonics, then Dallas. You're making another mistake by simply taking regular season statistics and trying to apply them to playoff basketball. Not only are the playoffs a whole new type of season but teams adjust and teams can play completely different just to match up with their opponent. I guess you missed all 7 games of the Suns/Lakers matchup in round 1? Because I mean hey... going by the regular season stats, Bryant should have been lighting the Suns up for 40 points + every game on the way to LA being swept 4-0. But instead they changed their playstyle to suit the matchup and stretched it out to 7 by pounding the ball inside. What leads you to believe the FT's were equal? Want to see the FT line for the series?

Mavs: 96 FTA
Spurs:171 FTA

Pretty big difference there. However, I don't see Mavs fans still whining about that, I see plenty of Spurs fans whining about that series again after game 3 last night and YOU GUYS WON THE ****ING SERIES Do you not remember game two when the Spurs shot like 30 more FT's than Dallas? Or what about game 3 when Dallas got an amazing SIX FTA for the game?

This year the Spurs have had trouble defending the Mavs with Harris each time they've played. They are older than 2 years ago, they are exhausted and banged up after a long series and a long first round series and Dallas is simply too fast for them. Comparing regular season tendencies to playoff games is beyond ridiculous. I mean hey, we have a completely different PG starting for the SOLE REASON to penetrate your "all world" interior defense and rape it to hell. It's worked in 2 games now and that's why the Spurs have lost no matter what stupid logic you want to try and come up with. :lol


Pwnd :elephant

[Kori Ellis]

Whottt vs Dampier - Good matchup so far.

[whottt]

No Kori...not a good matchup...

From this stupid little acorn:

None of that changes the fact that you said the FT's in 2003 were even when in reality SA had nearly double the FTA,

A mighty dumbass has grown...

Link to where I made that claim, Damp?

I warned you previously that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about....Read first...smack later. You'll be better off.


What I said was...FT differential is not an indicator of a good or fairly officiated game. It isn't.

[ponky]

Well I remember that 2003 playoff series and I remember the disbelief by everyone - except the Spurs and their fans - about how everyone could not believe the number of calls and the type of calls that went in the Spurs favor. In fact, there was even a newspaper article written about the craziness of those refs calls (you can see this article in which someone posted on this thread. It is on page 22 of this thread if you want to see it.)

I agree the Spurs back then were a great defensive team and the Mavs were more of a jump shooting team. But in that playoff series the refs went way overboard in awarding just about everything to the Spurs. I watched that series and there was no way the Spurs should've gotten the massive number of calls in their favor that they did. As the article suggested, the NBA felt it was in their best interest that the Spurs won.

Fast-forward now to the present 2006 playoff series. The Spurs are still a very good defensive team, but they have gotten older. And as for the Mavs... they are no longer that jump-shooting, no defense team of 2003. Avery Johnson has turned them into a well rounded, tough team that plays both offense AND defense now. That is why they are getting the calls.

Move over Spurs, there's a new sherriff in town!


Haha, it figures that the post about the 2003 would be mostly ignored except for the ludicrous post about how the refs may be targeting Finley and Van Exel. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense considering Van Exel was out of the game so quickly so how could he have contributed to the foul differential. Spurs fans cannot deny the facts but they sure can make up some crazy excuses about the officiating. One guy said FT differential doesn't matter while another one bitches about how many FTs the Mavs took in the last game, make up your frickin' mind. This is why you'll lose, no mental toughness either for the fans or the team right now. When you stop making comeback remarks that consist of nothing but silly little emoticons then maybe you'll realize that it's stupid to complain about the officiating.

[ponky]

No Kori...not a good matchup...

From this stupid little acorn:


A mighty dumbass has grown...

Link to where I made that claim, Damp?

I warned you previously that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about....Read first...smack later. You'll be better off.


What I said was...FT differential is not an indicator of a good or fairly officiated game. It isn't.


And yet, the whining only starts up when the Spurs lose and the fans realize that the opposing team went to the line more than they did and the series is 2-1 in favor of the opposing team. Why not talk about officiating every night since it's the same refs rotating throughout the series?

[whottt]

And yet, the whining only starts up when the Spurs lose and the fans realize that the opposing team went to the line more than they did and the series is 2-1 in favor of the opposing team. Why not talk about officiating every night since it's the same refs rotating throughout the series?


The officiating doesn't suck every night....

Contrary to what you may think...we don't whine about the officiating after every loss...well, Flash Gordon does but he's about the only one.

I can't recall any mass whining about the losses to the Kings...more like, these guys are whipping our asses.

That is not what is happening here...well game 2 was an asskicking but it was also really shitty officiating.

[ponky]

The officiating doesn't suck every night....

Contrary to what you may think...we don't whine about the officiating after every loss...well, Flash Gordon does but he's about the only one.

I can't recall any mass whining about the losses to the Kings...more like, these guys are whipping our asses.

That is not what is happening here...well game 2 was an asskicking but it was also really shitty officiating.

I just don't like any whining about the refs being the cause of a loss. I understand complaining about some officiating but it's sorry to blame the refs for an actual loss. I know there are lots of Spurs fans who don't do that but look how long this thread is, ridiculous!!! Shitty calls happen in every game on BOTH sides. In this series we haven't seen the type of game winning foul/no call that decides a game, like the Lebron traveling last game shot. Frustration sets in and people blame the easiest scapegoat for the loss, thre refs. I understand though, my s.o. does the same thing!

[SA Gunslinger]

The officiating doesn't suck every night....

Contrary to what you may think...we don't whine about the officiating after every loss...well, Flash Gordon does but he's about the only one.

I can't recall any mass whining about the losses to the Kings...more like, these guys are whipping our asses.

That is not what is happening here...well game 2 was an asskicking but it was also really shitty officiating.

Right on. I can't really think of any mass criticism of the refs from last season. In '03, game four against the Lakers and game one against the Mavs are the only games I can think of that spawned this kind of uproar.

[ponky]

Right on. I can't really think of any mass criticism of the refs from last season. In '03, game four against the Lakers and game one against the Mavs are the only games I can think of that spawned this kind of uproar.


Wow, imagine that. The Lakers evened up the series with that win and won their second straight after being down 0-2 and the Mavs took home court from the Spurs with that first game. No wonder there was an uproar...at least on spurstalk.

[whottt]

Wow, imagine that. The Lakers evened up the series with that win and won their second straight after being down 0-2

Um the uproar over that was because a DPOY, MVP, 8 time ALL NBA Defense, HOF'er, first man in history to finish in the top 5 in blocks, boards and steals, was fouled out of the game in 12 minutes of play....on completely bogus calls.

12 minutes of play...you think about that for a second.



and the Mavs took home court from the Spurs with that first game. No wonder there was an uproar...at least on spurstalk.

That was because the officiating sucked...not because the Mavs won...We lost HC to the Nuggets last year, no one blamed the officiating.


Look...I realize you guys gaining the upperhand against us in anything is like the pinnacle of Mav achievements, but what you must realize, not every team has been our shankass bitch to the degree that the Mavs have...lots of teams have drawn even in a series with us, lots of teams have stolen HC from us, lots of teams have gained the upperhand in a series against us...

Just because you have been our bitch doesn't mean every other team has...in fact it's quite rare for one team to be anothers bitch to the degee that the Mavs have been ours...

So no...while this is a big deal to you, it isn't to us, and the uproar over the officiating is because...it did suck.

The officiating sucked, it's just that simple. I personally don't blame the officiating for losing that game...We had a chance to win it and Harris stole the ball. But to defend the officiating as being fair, or equal, just shows how biased you are. And it's got nothing to do with FT differential. At least to me.

The officiating was not good...and I can even find some quotes by LakerFans, our actual rivals, not our bitches, saying we got hosed.

[ponky]

Um the uproar over that was because a DPOY, MVP, 8 time ALL NBA Defense, HOF'er, first man in history to finish in the top 5 in blocks, boards and steals, was fouled out of the game in 12 minutes of play....on completely bogus calls.

12 minutes of play...you think about that for a second.




That was because the officiating sucked...not because the Mavs won...We lost HC to the Nuggets last year, no one blamed the officiating.


Look...I realize you guys gaining the upperhand against us in anything is like the pinnacle of Mav achievements, but what you must realize, not every team has been our shankass bitch to the degree that the Mavs have...lots of teams have drawn even in a series with us, lots of teams have stolen HC from us, lots of teams have gained the upperhand in a series against us...

Just because you have been our bitch doesn't mean every other team has...in fact it's quite rare for one team to be anothers bitch to the degee that the Mavs have been ours...

So no...while this is a big deal to you, it isn't to us, and the uproar over the officiating is because...it did suck.

The officiating sucked, it's just that simple. I personally don't blame the officiating for losing that game...We had a chance to win it and Harris stole the ball. But to defend the officiating as being fair, or equal, just shows how biased you are. And it's got nothing to do with FT differential. At least to me.

The officiating was not good...and I can even find some quotes by LakerFans, our actual rivals, not our bitches, saying we got hosed.


LOL, "pinnacle of achievements" HAHAHA! The Spurs are a great team but for us they are just a stepping stone to the promised land. If you're going to talk ball leave out the puerile comments, they sound a bit weak. You try very hard to come up with a lot of filler about the why this happened or why that happened but in the end it all boils down to whining about refs sucking. Either talk ball or don't, I don't care.

[SA Gunslinger]

Wow, imagine that. The Lakers evened up the series with that win and won their second straight after being down 0-2 and the Mavs took home court from the Spurs with that first game. No wonder there was an uproar...at least on spurstalk.

As whottt posted, the Admiral was shown no respect. The Lakers were given this game on silver platter similar to what happened on Saturday night.

Game Four 2003 - West Semis - Spurs at Lakers


SAS MP FG FGA TP TPA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
+-----------------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Bruce Bowen 34 3 5 3 3 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 3 9
Tim Duncan 40 10 17 0 2 16 20 1 8 9 5 0 0 3 5 36
Stephen Jackson 39 6 16 3 6 0 0 0 10 10 0 0 0 5 1 15
Tony Parker 43 6 17 1 3 1 2 0 4 4 4 1 0 2 3 14
David Robinson 14 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 3 3 1 0 1 1 6 0
Speedy Claxton 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 0 0 0 0 0
Danny Ferry 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0
Manu Ginobili 23 4 9 2 4 3 4 2 2 4 4 1 0 0 3 13
Malik Rose 25 1 4 0 0 0 0 2 2 4 0 0 0 0 5 2
Kevin Willis 15 3 4 0 0 0 0 3 1 4 1 0 0 2 4 6
+-----------------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Total 240 33 74 9 18 20 26 9 32 41 18 2 2 14 31 95

LAL MP FG FGA TP TPA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
+-----------------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Kobe Bryant 40 10 24 1 4 14 17 2 5 7 3 2 1 2 5 35
Derek Fisher 43 6 12 2 4 3 3 1 2 3 1 3 0 1 2 17
Devean George 40 3 5 3 4 0 0 0 4 4 3 0 0 2 3 9
Robert Horry 25 0 4 0 1 0 0 0 3 3 0 0 1 1 4 0
Shaquille O'Neal 45 6 17 0 0 17 23 10 7 17 5 2 4 3 2 29
Mark Madsen 11 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 0 0 1 0 4 0
Stanislav Medvedenko 5 1 2 0 0 1 2 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 3
Jannero Pargo 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 0
Kareem Rush 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Brian Shaw 14 2 5 2 3 0 0 0 4 4 1 0 0 1 1 6
Samaki Walker 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 4 0
+-----------------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Total 240 28 71 8 16 35 45 13 29 42 14 7 8 13 26 99

[whottt]

LOL, "pinnacle of achievements" HAHAHA! The Spurs are a great team but for us they are just a stepping stone to the promised land. If you're going to talk ball leave out the puerile comments, they sound a bit weak.



Not as weak as your 2003 FTA differential stats....

Pssst...had you been a fan back then...

You'd have known the Don Nelson was deliberately ordering fouls called on Bruce Bowen. Guess what...when you deliberately order fouls called on a player, you will usually wind up on the short end of the FTA log...That disparity is not great enough if you ask me.

LMAO I think one game Nellie started fouling Bowen in the third quarter.

Had to have been a fan back then I guess.


Secondly...
IF you were an NBA fan of any length you would know that it is standard SOP for the trailing team to begin fouling the leading team at some point in the final minute of a playoff game. Especially when it's a crap FT shooting team like the Spurs....not necessarily whnen it is a great FT shooting team like the Mavs. All things being equal...the winning team usually should have a FT margin if the game was close....all thing were not equal in 03.


Yes you have been owned...in a way so bad it will be years before you truly realize just how bad.

Trust me...someday, on your Mavs board, you will be arguing with someone who you think is just a total idiot....You'll suddenly realize that this clown is making the same arguments you made before you understood the game...

You'll smile to yourself, remind yourself that you were once as stupid as he, you'll think back of how badly I ripped your ass, and how you didn't realize it at the time, you'll be greatful that those days are long past you, and no one really remembers this absolute destruction but you........and then you'll proceed to rip that new guy a new hole like I have just done to you and your Mav brethren(albeit not with my panache).

Congrats...you are now smarter about basketball for having argued with me, and smarter than 99% of the other Mavs fans on this board.. No thanks necessary. Just please try to improve the quality of your takes on my board and keep your own from making fools of your fan base.

And no, FT differential still isn't a good way of judging offiiciating.

[island_dude]

Tim just said that in the post game conference.

'He didn't touch me, I didn't touch him. I was just getting out of the way when he was trying to create contact. There was zero contact on that play.'
Does Tim Duncan think he's ever commited a foul in his entire NBA career?

[island_dude]

World Champions don't use officiating as an excuse for losses, Period!
The Spurs had an opportunity to win the game, and blew it on the Horry Gino turnover.

By the way since you all seem the think Timmy was robbed on that call. How does it feel when the shoe's on the other foot? Timmy has been getting those type calls for years, yet Spurs fans can't handle it when it's turned the other way. :madrun

[ctpsb]

Does Tim Duncan think he's ever commited a foul in his entire NBA career?

Yes -- only when he knows the call was bogus does he say something.

When the Mavs are getting two points NO MATTER WHAT every possession in the fourth quarter against a team that has played some of the best defense over the last three years -- something is wrong and nobody is going to convince me otherwise.

[island_dude]

Yes -- only when he knows the call was bogus does he say something.

When the Mavs are getting two points NO MATTER WHAT every possession in the fourth quarter against a team that has played some of the best defense over the last three years -- something is wrong and nobody is going to convince me otherwise.
Duncan gets his "deer in the headlights" look everytime he's whistled for a foul. Gimme a break!

[picnroll]

I guess then we'll all be happy, Mavs' and Spurs' fans alike, if tonights game is reffed the same as game three but with the calls by the refs reversed, particularly those at the end of the game.

[DampierAmGod]

I guess then we'll all be happy, Mavs' and Spurs' fans alike, if tonights game is reffed the same as game three but with the calls by the refs reversed, particularly those at the end of the game.

It's not the Mavs fault that Pop coached a bad quarter and didn't call some aggressive plays. But yea, you can switch whatever you want with the calls. Give us 2 bullshit flop calls like Manu got and give Harris 2 calls when no one even touches him like Parker got late in the game to keep us in it and give us 2 chances to win it at the end and I am confident we will not commit a turnover or have to put up a prayer shot, we'll come through.

[picnroll]

Good. I'd like to see the Mavs win it from te field not the line.

btw Awesome crunch time defense. How many stops did that vaunted Mav defnse get in the last five minutes?

[ctpsb]

Duncan gets his "deer in the headlights" look everytime he's whistled for a foul. Gimme a break!

Look we can go back and forth on this. I'll say no he doesn't and you'll say yes he does. It doesn't really matter. You can look at all my prior posts and I will never blame the officials for a loss. I didn't blame them for Game 2 or any Sacramento series loss or any series last year except one -- that was Game 4 of the Denver series last year.

I know you will say yes just to win this arguement but you really can't honestly believe that the Mavericks were good enough to draw a foul almost every and I mean every time down the floor against a defense that has stopped Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace, Jason Kidd, etc.

I mean 50 free throws!! Come on you can't be serious there is something wrong here.

[SPARKY]

It's not the Mavs fault that Pop coached a bad quarter and didn't call some aggressive plays. But yea, you can switch whatever you want with the calls. Give us 2 bullshit flop calls like Manu got and give Harris 2 calls when no one even touches him like Parker got late in the game to keep us in it and give us 2 chances to win it at the end and I am confident we will not commit a turnover or have to put up a prayer shot, we'll come through.

I'm confident you have no clue about what you see when you watch a game.

[ctpsb]

It's not the Mavs fault that Pop coached a bad quarter and didn't call some aggressive plays. But yea, you can switch whatever you want with the calls. Give us 2 bullshit flop calls like Manu got and give Harris 2 calls when no one even touches him like Parker got late in the game to keep us in it and give us 2 chances to win it at the end and I am confident we will not commit a turnover or have to put up a prayer shot, we'll come through.

We are not talking about one or two calls.

50 free throws!!

[picnroll]

We are not talking about one or two calls.

50 free throws!!
Should have been 80. Right DampierAmGod? :drunk

[leemajors]

82 fts shot in one game by both teams = ridiculous.

[island_dude]

Like I said the Spurs had their chance a the end of the game, and choked. As a Mavs fan I've been accustomed to seeing it the other way, so it was nice to see it happen to the other team for a change.

I think we can all agree that the officiating in the NBA is out of control, and has way too much influence over the outcome of games. That said, I still believe the best team will come out of this series as the winner. We still have a long way to go before that is determined.

[DampierAmGod]

Good. I'd like to see the Mavs win it from te field not the line.

btw Awesome crunch time defense. How many stops did that vaunted Mav defnse get in the last five minutes?

Who said the Mavs D was "vaunted" :lol

And hey, looked to me like they made 2 defensive plays to win the game when it mattered. btw awesome crunch time offense. Crappy inbound, a turnover and a crappy play drawn up.

[ctpsb]

Like I said the Spurs had their chance a the end of the game, and choked. As a Mavs fan I've been accustomed to seeing it the other way, so it was nice to see it happen to the other team for a change.

I think we can all agree that the officiating in the NBA is out of control, and has way too much influence over the outcome of games. That said, I still believe the best team will come out of this series as the winner. We still have a long way to go before that is determined.

I agree with that.

[FromWayDowntown]

Whatever the state of the officiating, the Spurs would do themselves a world of good to rediscover the bunker mentality that has served them well in previous title runs.

Just play the game and don't worry about the officiating.

[SPARKY]

Whatever the state of the officiating, the Spurs would do themselves a world of good to rediscover the bunker mentality that has served them well in previous title runs.

Just play the game and don't worry about the officiating.

I agree. I'd also add that Pop's ability to morph his team to complete its objective is looking fairly good. One call or bounce the other way and the Spurs would be looking at a 2-1 lead. AJ's big adjustment has been addressed.

[SA Gunslinger]

On Cold Pizza, Woodie Paige, the drunken' Volunteer and known Spur Hater said SA is done. Skip Bayless, on the other hand, must have read this thread because he called out the refs. He was using the 50 free throws and 22 free throws in the 4th Qtr as his argument that the refs on Saturday were intimidated by Mark Cuban.

I watched the last six minutes of the game again last night and the game was blatantly called for the Mavs. These examples have probably been brought up by others.

The Mavs did get a bad call against them when Howard blocked Manu's shot. But Howard could have been called for a technical, considering Joey Crawford was working the game. Of course, he didn't get one.

The trip call against Nowitzki on Barry was BS. And then TP gets tripped but no call.

On TD's fifth foul, Nowitzki goes over Bowen's back for the rebound, then barely gets touched by TD, to draw the foul. Jeez. Let them play.

Devin Harris could have been called for two offensive fouls but they were not called. On one play, Bowen switched on him and TP was in position to draw the charge. A blocking foul was called. On another play, he pushed off Bowen but no offensive foul called.

On Nowitzki's offensive rebound to win the game, he bullied his way against Bowen to get it. Then, I guess there might have been a little contact but of course, Nowitzki drew the foul. Bowen might have grazed Nowitzki's head but on a play to decide the game, that whistle came pretty quick. Nowitzki missed the shot but hit the free throws to win the game.

Okay, I'm done venting. On to game four.

[NBAFan]

SPURS won 1st game by 2 point: Mavs fan crying official suck
MAVS won 3rd game by 1 point: Spurs fan crying official suck.
When a game is won by 1 or 2 point. Their is no fix in or officials want one team to win another. Officials are human and they do commit some mistakes. Mavs in game 1 were given chance to win the game or tie. Same way Spurs were given chance to win the game with 7 seconds. Both the games team with better DEFENSE won the game.

[DampierAmGod]

Don't forget game 2 that we won by over 20 and were called for more fouls than SA. The refs handed it to us!!

[LEONARD]

On Cold Pizza, Woodie Paige, the drunken' Volunteer and known Spur Hater said SA is done. Skip Bayless, on the other hand, must have read this thread because he called out the refs. He was using the 50 free throws and 22 free throws in the 4th Qtr as his argument that the refs on Saturday were intimidated by Mark Cuban.

I watched the last six minutes of the game again last night and the game was blatantly called for the Mavs. These examples have probably been brought up by others.

The Mavs did get a bad call against them when Howard blocked Manu's shot. But Howard could have been called for a technical, considering Joey Crawford was working the game. Of course, he didn't get one.

The trip call against Nowitzki on Barry was BS. And then TP gets tripped but no call.

On TD's fifth foul, Nowitzki goes over Bowen's back for the rebound, then barely gets touched by TD, to draw the foul. Jeez. Let them play.

Devin Harris could have been called for two offensive fouls but they were not called. On one play, Bowen switched on him and TP was in position to draw the charge. A blocking foul was called. On another play, he pushed off Bowen but no offensive foul called.

On Nowitzki's offensive rebound to win the game, he bullied his way against Bowen to get it. Then, I guess there might have been a little contact but of course, Nowitzki drew the foul. Bowen might have grazed Nowitzki's head but on a play to decide the game, that whistle came pretty quick. Nowitzki missed the shot but hit the free throws to win the game.

Okay, I'm done venting. On to game four.

4 TO's by the Spurs in the last 3:45 didn't have anything to do with it? 3 if you throw-out the Parker "trip"...


dallas' winning basket was a free throw

refs gave them the game

literally, not just on paper

Thanks for the genius insight... :drunk

[jaespur21]

yup exactly too many turnovers @ the end however if they didnt call tripping when tony got tripped "Youd expect them 2 b consistent especially with A whole years work on the line"

[Drill Instructor]

Thanks for the genius insight... :drunk


It doesn't take a genius to see the obvious you f*@kin' maggot!
The refs were treatin' Dirk like he was a goddamn frickin flower!
What kinda name is Leonard anyway Private?

Sounds like a queer's name!
I'll be watching you!

Drop and give me 25!!

[tlongII]

Great thread! :troll

[LEONARD]

It doesn't take a genius to see the obvious you f*@kin' maggot!
The refs were treatin' Dirk like he was a goddamn frickin flower!
What kinda name is Leonard anyway Private?

Sounds like a queer's name!
I'll be watching you!

Drop and give me 25!!

LMAO...aren't you supposed to be posting this in the "no limit" rally thread for tonight's game??

Here's a thought...MAYBE my name isn't LEONARD? It's called a username, sir...

[LEONARD]

http://vj.electricfusion.org/temp/arnold_stopwhining.jpg

[JohnMcClane]

Rashaud (las Vegas): Ok.....John was Duncan's 6th foul in game 3 really a foul or did Dallas get saved on that play?

John Hollinger: (3:40 PM ET ) That's such a tough call to make, but I probably would have blown the whistle there, just because Duncan's leg was stretched outside the plane of his body. Especially as tightly as that game was officiated.

[Leetonidas]

Dumbass. Did you not watch the last 8.5 seconds? Did you not see the "blocking foul" on Tim Duncan? It's not the number of fouls, it's when it happend. And you cannot deny Game 3's difference. The Mavs had 50 free throw attempts, the Spurs had like 29.

[Trainwreck2100]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41362

[FromWayDowntown]

Once more:

4th Quarter Free Throw Makes-Attempts

Game 3: Mavs 18-22; Spurs 6-8
Game 4: Mavs 13-14; Spurs 3-4

4th Quarter Field Goal Shooting

Game 3: Mavs 6-12 (.500), Spurs 13-17 (.765)
Game 4: Mavs 6-20 (.400), Spurs 12-23 (.522)


If you can square those numbers for me in some rational way, I'm listening.

[Tigole Bitties]

It should never had gone into overtime.

Notably:
1) No call charge on Dirk + delay of game of technical on TD = 3 freebies
2) Bogus Bowen touch foul on Dirk = 2 freebies

[johnut32]

Spurs fouled more? Seems pretty simple.

[spurs_666]

32 free throws by each team, pretty one sided huh. only problem is we hit ours and u didnt (2 missed by parker in ot and 1 by duncan in ot) and besides that, we only went to ot cuz duncan missed a 6 ft shot at the end of regulation.

i would never want to suggest that the mavs have anything to do with your current woes.

I agree with you, the ref made a fair call. We didn't make free throw and we made stupid turnover, we simply lost because we choked. I hope we will not choked tonight.

[FromWayDowntown]

Spurs fouled more? Seems pretty simple.

Exponentially more, apparently.

Anomalously more in a playoff game.

[johnut32]

It should never had gone into overtime.

Notably:
1) No call charge on Dirk + delay of game of technical on TD = 3 freebies
2) Bogus Bowen touch foul on Dirk = 2 freebies

When you act like a baby on the floor you deserve the technical.

[Trainwreck2100]

I agree with you, the ref made a fair call. We didn't make free throw and we made stupid turnover, we simply lost because we choked. I hope we will not choked tonight.


says the guy with the Dallas IP address

[Kori Ellis]

I agree with you, the ref made a fair call. We didn't make free throw and we made stupid turnover, we simply lost because we choked. I hope we will not choked tonight.

What's the point of pretending to be a Spurs fan, Queenie?

[johnut32]

Exponentially more, apparently.

Anomalously more in a playoff game.

The simple answer would be to quit fouling.

[FromWayDowntown]

When you act like a baby on the floor you deserve the technical.

Apparently, you also deserve one if Dampier shoves you across the lane and you make glancing contact that causes Dirk to flop.

[wolf754life]

jus·tice (jŭs'tĭs) pronunciation
noun

1. The quality of being just; fairness.
2.
1. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
2. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3.
1. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
2. Law. The administration and procedure of law.
4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

Mavs fans better get ready for what is in store. 3 long nights of JUSTICE.

You have crossed the line, NBA, it was a charge, it wasn't a foul on bowen, time and again you have fucked us, only to look blindly away as Dirka Dirka shot free throw after free throw, free point after free point.

Well all that stops now, its over and its not coming back. The series is Mavs 1, Refs 2, Spurs 1. Not Mavs 3, Spurs 1.

The seasons don't fear the reaper, nor do the wind the sun or the rain!

Spurs in a glorious and just 7!

IF he DIES, HE DIES! NA C BLA!

[v2000]

Dumbass. Did you not watch the last 8.5 seconds? Did you not see the "blocking foul" on Tim Duncan? It's not the number of fouls, it's when it happend. And you cannot deny Game 3's difference. The Mavs had 50 free throw attempts, the Spurs had like 29.
whine whine whine... just accept the fact that the spurs blew their chances. SOMEWHAT questionable fouls happened at bad times, but they also turned it over at key times. you cant blame the refs for those.

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's just a game.

[Trainwreck2100]

The simple answer would be to quit fouling.

They tried that on the last play of regulation, didn't work so well

[timvp]

I think I'm becoming an Eagles fan.

F Dallas and their weak ass fans.

[johnut32]

Apparently, you also deserve one if Dampier shoves you across the lane and you make glancing contact that causes Dirk to flop.

I see...makes complete sense now.

Wooo to be a spur. ALways being put upon.

[FromWayDowntown]

The simple answer would be to quit fouling.

Well, apparently that's the only answer. Of course, one could try to do that by beating drivers to the spot and being set when the driver arrives, but then again, one might be called for a block even in that situation. Or one could try to play defense on a last possession, get pushed off, and try to regain position and be called for a foul in that situation.

It's hard to "quit fouling" when you get called for doing things that aren't fouls.

[johnut32]

I think I'm becoming an Eagles fan.

F Dallas and their weak ass fans.

You could just root for the San Antonio.......

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think I'm becoming an Eagles fan.

F Dallas and their weak ass fans.


maybe San Antonio won't be a Cowboys city anymore, and we can finally land an NFL team.

[johnut32]

Well, apparently that's the only answer. Of course, one could try to do that by beating drivers to the spot and being set when the driver arrives, but then again, one might be called for a block even in that situation. Or one could try to play defense on a last possession, get pushed off, and try to regain position and be called for a foul in that situation.

It's hard to "quit fouling" when you get called for doing things that aren't fouls.

Should the spurs give up? It's become clear there is a league wide conspiracy among all refs to invent fouls on the spurs. Pooor spurs.

[FromWayDowntown]

I see...makes complete sense now.

Wooo to be a spur. ALways being put upon.

That's not at all what I said. I'm just acknowledging that there were some absolutely atrocious calls in Game 4.

Regardless, the Mavericks did enough to win the game and the Spurs had a chance but didn't. Is that good enough for you? Does your uncertain Maverick-fan psyche need me to shout platitudes about your team?

[johnut32]

That's not at all what I said. I'm just acknowledging that there were some absolutely atrocious calls in Game 4.

Regardless, the Mavericks did enough to win the game and the Spurs had a chance but didn't. Is that good enough for you? Does your uncertain Maverick-fan psyche need me to shout platitudes about your team?

Yet there were no atrocious calls on the Mavs?

I just find it humorous that you could blame these losses on the refs. The whining is absolutely hilarious.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yet there were no atrocious calls on the Mavs?

I just find it humorous that you could blame these losses on the refs. The whining is absolutely hilarious.

I've not blamed the losses on the officials. I've admitted and acknowledged that the Spurs have made enough mistakes to lose those games. Had they played the first half of Game 3 with the same intensity that they played the last 6 quarters of Game 3 and Game 4, they could very well have crushed the Mavs and ended this thing. They didn't. It's as simple as that.

That doesn't mean that there weren't horrendous calls; and it doesn't mean that my complaints about those calls are attributing losses to officials.

I'd be curious what "atrocious" call went against the Mavericks that wasn't immediately remedied.

[johnut32]

How about Dirks "charge" on Bowen. Terrible call that had no determinative factor on the game. You see, thats the difference between you and me. I refuse to blame the refs for any misfortune.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

How about Dirks "charge" on Bowen. Terrible call that had no determinative factor on the game. You see, thats the difference between you and me. I refuse to blame the refs for any misfortune.

Ummm, I don't know, and this is only a theory butttt...

maybe because your team is up 3-1?

[johnut32]

Or maybe I refuse to believe that refs have that much impact on the game. What if Dirk misses those freethrows? The refs didn't make them for him.

[FromWayDowntown]

How about Dirks "charge" on Bowen. Terrible call that had no determinative factor on the game. You see, thats the difference between you and me. I refuse to blame the refs for any misfortune.

Cast my statements however you wish. It's obvious that you're not terribly interested in actually understanding my point and I'm, frankly, not interested in reiterating it to you ad infinitum. I can assure you that I've repeatedly noted in my posts concerning officiating that the Spurs have lost games because they've not done what was necessary to win those games. They've had plenty of opportunities and, unlike years past, they've not seized those opportunities in Games 3 & 4. I've been upset about some calls, but when push comes to shove, champions play through that crap. The Spurs haven't.

[johnut32]

Cast my statements however you wish. It's obvious that you're not terribly interested in actually understanding my point and I'm, frankly, not interested in reiterating it to you ad infinitum. I can assure you that I've repeatedly noted in my posts concerning officiating that the Spurs have lost games because they've not done what was necessary to win those games. They've had plenty of opportunities and, unlike years past, they've not seized those opportunities in Games 3 & 4. I've been upset about some calls, but when push comes to shove, champions play through that crap. The Spurs haven't.

Clearly, the mavs have nothing to do with the spurs current predicament.

[tlongII]

http://www.seahawks.com/wallScreen/logo.jpg

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Still bitter, eh? At least they got there...

[tlongII]

Still bitter, eh? At least they got there...

Very bitter. Talk about an ass-raping...

[Leetonidas]

Or maybe I refuse to believe that refs have that much impact on the game. What if Dirk misses those freethrows? The refs didn't make them for him.

What the hell is wrong with you? They gave a 90% free throw shooter the chance. He wasn't going to miss and everyone knew it.

[Spurs Dynasty]

Or maybe I refuse to believe that refs have that much impact on the game. What if Dirk misses those freethrows? The refs didn't make them for him.

!!!????? He shouldnt have been there in the first place !!! :lol :lol