Piston fans Brace Yourself

[himat]

Some Chicago radio shows are saying that Ben might get a 15 million 4-5 years offer from the Bulls :depressed . Get ready if he chooses to leave. I hope these radio shows don't know what they are talking about.

[baseline bum]

No surprise a DPOY center is going to pull max-money in a size-deprived league. He's worth every penny, and you guys better match or it's over. A scrub like Bonzi Wells will never fill Wallace's void.

[Pistons < Spurs]

15? seeya! I don't think the Pistons will match that. I don't think I want them to match that. Ben will need to decide if 2 or 3 million more per year is worth leaving this team. If he does go, congrats to him for the big money deal.

Hopefully we will go after and get Pryzilliba and Bonzi. Dump Kato, and actually play Dale Davis 15-20 minutes this year and I'll be cool with it.

No point in getting all upset or start claiming that the sky is falling if he leaves. We still have more talent than most teams in the League. Pryz and Bonzi ... along with making a consistent effort in playing the bench ... will allow us to still compete for the ECF.

[Lp26]

We won't match (if this is true). Our owner is too cheap. :depressed

After hearing Peja got 13 million from NOK, i'm not suprised if Chicago is offering this much.

We're screwed.

[baseline bum]

15? seeya! I don't think the Pistons will match that. I don't think I want them to match that. Ben will need to decide if 2 or 3 million more per year is worth leaving this team. If he does go, congrats to him for the big money deal.

Hopefully we will go after and get Pryzilliba and Bonzi. Dump Kato, and actually play Dale Davis 15-20 minutes this year and I'll be cool with it.

No point in getting all upset or start claiming that the sky is falling if he leaves. We still have more talent than most teams in the League. Pryz and Bonzi ... along with making a consistent effort in playing the bench ... will allow us to still compete for the ECF.

You guys only have the MLE to work with, regardless of what happens with Wallace. It's Big Ben or bust for you guys. It's no time to get cheap when you're that close to another title.

[ducks]

how much does the pistons have in capspace?

this the mle right?

so how can they get wells and joel and get a backup point?

darko looks good right about now huh!

[ducks]

pistons need to try to get him to do a sign and trade
but bulls have all the advantage

[Bob Lanier]

The Pistons are just over $6 million under the cap right now, so no MLE.

No title either way in Detroit, so enjoy Chicago, Ben.

[Kori Ellis]

A deal starting at $15M?

[ducks]

We won't match (if this is true). Our owner is too cheap. :depressed

After hearing Peja got 13 million from NOK, i'm not suprised if Chicago is offering this much.

We're screwed.


long term max for ben might be to much
short term no

[Bob Lanier]

A deal starting at $15M?
The latest rumor is 5 years $75 million, way out of Davidson's range. Not sure of the particulars, which probably don't exist yet.

[Lp26]

That's just an insane amount of $$

[Kori Ellis]

The latest rumor is 5 years $75 million

Outrageous.

[timvp]

I see signs of Big Ben breaking down. The last two seasons he's gotten worse as the year has gone on. No way in hell I match a 5-year, $75M offer.

That said, the Pistons are screwed without Wallace. Their only chance is if McDyess can somehow play 30 minutes per game without destroying his knees.

[ducks]

wonder what the bulls will do with those forwards now?


chandler anyone?

wish chandler was alot cheaper

[baseline bum]

I see signs of Big Ben breaking down. The last two seasons he's gotten worse as the year has gone on. No way in hell I match a 5-year, $75M offer.

That said, the Pistons are screwed without Wallace. Their only chance is if McDyess can somehow play 30 minutes per game without destroying his knees.

You don't bite the bullet when you can win the title? The Pistons are over without him.

[himat]

It's only a rumor. Ben still has a chance to stay put, but the Pistons can't be too cheap. We're screwed if Ben leaves because even if he leaves we don't have much to work with anyways :depressed . Come on Ben.

[Bob Lanier]

After searching for a bit I can't find the cite for 5/75 that I remembered, so that's extremely unreliable. 4 years $60 is all over the place, though. It goes without saying that that's not necessarily any more reliable.

But this isn't good news:

The Detroit Pistons got the ball rolling on negotiations with Ben Wallace on Saturday, offering the unrestricted free agent a four-year contract worth $48 million.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1151799013205110.xml&coll=1

[ducks]

pistons need nazr
sign and trade and pistons offer?

[Pistons < Spurs]

It's Big Ben or bust for you guys. It's no time to get cheap when you're that close to another title.


I hear ya' ... but ...

IMO, 2 years of a good, but not great Ben. is not worth handicapping the team 3 to 5 years from now.

We will be paying Ben and Sheed tons of money to be bench players Thats not a good plan to me. I wasn't thrilled w/ Sheeds deal when we did it either.

We'll see what happens. I still say Ben stays ... but I'm not gonna blame him if he does go. And I won't blame the owner for being cheap. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a smart buisness decision to give Ben 4 or 5 years ... for any amount of money. He has 2 good years left. 3 years in a row, his numbers have fallen. What can we really expect form an offensively defficent player who is obviously aging in 3 to 5 years time? Not much.


Too bad we don't have a shot blocking, offensively talented, athletic big man on the roster anymore. Joe got rid of Darko too soon IMO.

[ducks]

joel is your blocker if you can work a sign and trade with portland

but if spurs want him

his agent is the same as rasho and the gm used to be a spur scout

[himat]

If Ben leaves Sheed has to leave. Sheed would want to hurt Flip cuz he'd think it was Flips fault Ben left. If the Wallaces leave you almost need to get rid of CB and Dice while they're worth money because without the Wallaces the Pistons won't make it to the Finals and probably not even the ECF.

Ben has been practicing at the Pistons Practice facility and Joe Dumars said that Ben would like to be back.

[baseline bum]

I hear ya' ... but ...

IMO, 2 years of a good, but not great Ben. is not worth handicapping the team 3 to 5 years from now.



What do you care about 3-5 years from now when your team is that close to winning it all? If you let Wallace walk you might as well not sign Billups next year either. A 5 year deal may be tough to swallow, but 4 years isn't going to handicap your franchise. You might have to pay $4-$5 million in luxury tax if you keep Wallace and re-up Billups, but shots to win titles are too few and far between to pass up.

I'd trade 10 years of being the Knicks (as long as the Spurs don't leave SA) for another ring.

[Pistons < Spurs]

If Ben leaves Sheed has to leave. Sheed would want to hurt Flip cuz he'd think it was Flips fault Ben left. :huh :huh :huh


If the Wallaces leave you almost need to get rid of CB and Dice while they're worth money because without the Wallaces the Pistons won't make it to the Finals and probably not even the ECF. :huh :huh :huh

[Kori Ellis]

After searching for a bit I can't find the cite for 5/75 that I remembered, so that's extremely unreliable. 4 years $60 is all over the place, though. It goes without saying that that's not necessarily any more reliable.

But this isn't good news:

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1151799013205110.xml&coll=1


So the Pistons offered him 4-years/$48M?

That's more than I thought they'd make in their first offer to him. If the $60-75M rumors from the Bulls are true, then he's gone. I don't think he'd pass on $12-27M extra.

[baseline bum]

If Wallace leaves you all might as well tank for Oden.

[timvp]

You don't bite the bullet when you can win the title? The Pistons are over without him.

It's tough. It'd be like in 2001 if David Robinson received a $50M offer somewhere. Do you let him go or do you keep him for the couple good years he has left?

Basically you are screwed either way.

[ducks]

that is why trading darko was so fucking stupid

[ducks]

bulls are title contenders with him

ben wallace can be the guy that puts them over the edge
it will not be chauncey

IT IS ABOUT EGO MORE THEN MONEY TO

[baseline bum]

It's tough. It'd be like in 2001 if David Robinson received a $50M offer somewhere. Do you let him go or do you keep him for the couple good years he has left?

Basically you are screwed either way.

Wallace is still the DPOY, and I think he has at least 2 all-star seasons left, which you couldn't say for David in 2001. To me this is a no-brainer if the deal is 4 years. For 5 years it becomes a lot tougher sell though.

[himat]

:huh :huh :huh

:huh :huh :huh

Rasheed already doesn't like Flip. I'm sure if Ben left Rasheed would think it was Flips fault Ben left becaus he benched Ben in Game 6, he never involved Ben etc.

If Sheed has problems with Flip and ben is gone we shoud get rid of Sheed unforunantly because I don't se it working out.

[Tobias]

that is why trading darko was so fucking stupid
dun dun duuuunnnnnn! :drunk

[Lp26]

What do you care about 3-5 years from now when your team is that close to winning it all? If you let Wallace walk you might as well not sign Billups next year either. A 5 year deal may be tough to swallow, but 4 years isn't going to handicap your franchise. You might have to pay $4-$5 million in luxury tax if you keep Wallace and re-up Billups, but shots to win titles are too few and far between to pass up.

I'd trade 10 years of being the Knicks (as long as the Spurs don't leave SA) for another ring.

Sadly, i agree with this. It really is worth it in my eyes for the years of title contention, and i really don't think a 4-year deal is that bad either. Maybe if the Pistons offer 13 instead of 12. I don't think Ben will leave for 2 mil/yearly more. As much as he hates Flip, I like to think there is still loyalty there towards his teamates and what the Pistons organization has done for him.

There is NOBODY we can get that will have anywhere close to the impact that Ben has on our team. NOBODY.

[himat]

I know I won't have a good sleep because I'm going to wonder if Ben got signed somwhere every 15 minutes :depressed .

[Lp26]

^

I dread checking for updates on the Pistons site. I don't even want to think about it anymore

[himat]

I have no idea what to expect now. :pctoss

[Burn531]

Oh well

[baseline bum]

^

I dread checking for updates on the Pistons site. I don't even want to think about it anymore

Can you give me a link? I don't know any good Detroit boards.

[Burn531]

Can you give me a link? I don't know any good Detroit boards.

http://pistons.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/631103441

http://www.pistonsforum.com/forum.php

Those are 2 I go to.

[FreshPrince22]

Can you give me a link? I don't know any good Detroit boards.

www.Pistonsforum.com is good, but it's still building a user base. Come join in!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Dale Davis is on the pistons?!

[jochhejaam]

I thought 3 years for $36 million would be a sound offer for Ben from management's standpoint, the extra year is icing on the cake IMO.
That's $27 million less than Chicago's offering if the report is true. I know which offer I'd take if I were Ben.

[himat]

yep that site is great. I'm checking chicago sites right now. Some people are aying that this is the offer the bulls are giving, but they have no links.

[himat]

I thought 3 years for $36 million would be a sound offer for Ben from management's standpoint, the extra year is icing on the cake IMO.
That's $27 million less than Chicago's offering if the report is true. I know which offer I'd take if I were Ben.

3 years isn't long enough for him right now. Maybe the 4 year 48 million deal will work, but the bulls are making Detroit sweat right now.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Maybe I'm stupid, naive or too much of a blind homer to think straight. But I am not of the belief that the Pistons are simply done if we do not get Ben back.

Will they win the 'ship next year? Probably not. :lol

But the future is still bright. Tay, Rip and Sheed are already signed ... we assumingly will resign Chauncey next year. That's 4 of the "best starting 5" locked up for 3? 4? 5 years? I'll take that.

Dice can play 20-25 minutes. More than that? doubtful. But Dale Davis should still be good for 20 minutes ( once traded to Indy in the 04-05 season, he played 25 games @ 30 minutes per. He averaged 7pts 9rbs. And we didn't utilize him at all last year. ). Jason Maxiell (last years #16 draft pick) is supposed to be a baby Ben with much more offense. Play Dice, Dale, Sheed and Maxiell. I'm fine with that.

Obviously we won't be the same team that we've grown used to seing. The defensive will not in the top 5 defenses in the L. We will attempt to become more of an offensive team ... just as the NBA seems driven to make most teams.

We are stil a playoff team even without Ben ... at least we are in the East.

Next year we have 2 first round picks and 2 seconds I believe. Who's to say we can't throw all of those picks to get #1 overall. Oden would fit right in, and we'd be even more explosive than we are as of right now with Ben.

That might not be very likely, and I'm not gonna base the future on the hope of getting Oden, but we should still be able to get some good talent next year no matter waht.

There is supposed to be much more of a concerted effort to play the bench this year. That should mean a more spry group come playoff time. That should mean that Delfino becomes an impact player our team, creating more offense than we currently posses. Perhaps Amir, though still probably too young and inexperienced, will contribute.

We still have many more Championship pieces than most teams out there. We will have to change and adapt to a different style. But that doesn't mean we're done.

[Lp26]

http://pistons.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/631103441

http://www.pistonsforum.com/forum.php

Those are 2 I go to.

Me too. I just started going to Pistons Forum

[himat]

If we sign Ben we have barley anything to work with. If we don't sign Ben we still have no money to work with. If we don't resign Ben we're in trouble. If we have to resign Ben by giving him 16 million for 4-5 years Chauncey will probably opt out of his contract next year

[Bob Lanier]

There are a couple of other Pistons forums - Realgm, WTFDetroit, and the former Freep forum at Worldcrossing are the biggest. The first is more or less dead and the latter two are somewhat to extremely abrasive depending on subject, and the last is essentially an asshole circlejerk. But the previous poster is essentially right: none of them is very good, which is why we're squatting here.


Dale Davis is on the pistons?!
Dale Davis on the Pacers, a 2nd-round playoff team, 1 year ago: 29.2 MPG, 6.9 PPG, 8.9 RPG (3.6 ORPG), 1.32 BPG.

Dale Davis on the Pistons, a team that quite frankly needed a backup center: 6.4 MPG in 28 of 82 games, no injuries, and frankly those numbers were inflated from some garbage time performances. :flipoff you, Flip.

[baseline bum]

Next year we have 2 first round picks and 2 seconds I believe. Who's to say we can't throw all of those picks to get #1 overall. Oden would fit right in, and we'd be even more explosive than we are as of right now with Ben.

There isn't a combination of players you could move to land the #1 pick next year, unless Oden gets hit by a bus. There is absolutely no way anyone would ever trade the right to pick the best highschool big since Alcindor for anything short of LeBron.

[Lp26]

If we sign Ben we have barley anything to work with. If we don't sign Ben we still have no money to work with. If we don't resign Ben we're in trouble. If we have to resign Ben by giving him 16 million for 4-5 years Chauncey will probably opt out of his contract next year

We definately don't have to worry about overpaying Ben in that price range. There is no way Davidson will EVER do that.

I actually think they will end up paying Chauncey the Max or close to it when he opts out.

I don't know . . .

I think Ben deserves the money more than Chauncey to be honest.

[baseline bum]

I see signs of Big Ben breaking down. The last two seasons he's gotten worse as the year has gone on.

Maybe this season, but you can't tell me that about 2005. He was 12 minutes from being the runaway choice for Finals MVP. Wallace played the series of his life. He's one year removed from it. For someone who comes through like that in a series of that magnitude, you pay him $15 million if he wants $15 million. Maybe not 5 years (I'd prob still do it, but I can see the problem there), but for 4 I'd do it in a second.

[himat]

Definantly. Ben desrves it more. I just hope 12 million will be fine for him. It would make him the highest payed Piston.

[baseline bum]

If we sign Ben we have barley anything to work with. If we don't sign Ben we still have no money to work with. If we don't resign Ben we're in trouble. If we have to resign Ben by giving him 16 million for 4-5 years Chauncey will probably opt out of his contract next year

Billups will opt out of that last year no matter what. He's an all-star being paid only $6.8 million in 2007. He should command at least $8-$9 million starting as a FA.

[ducks]

terry got 50 million
billups is worth that if not more

[baseline bum]

http://pistons.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/631103441

http://www.pistonsforum.com/forum.php

Those are 2 I go to.


www.Pistonsforum.com is good, but it's still building a user base. Come join in!

Thanks... I'll check them out.

[himat]

If we pay Ben 15-16 million then we can't increase CB's pay much either. I just hope both guys agree to stay for a slight increase and to have shots at championships.

[Bob Lanier]

Maybe this season, but you can't tell me that about 2005. He was 12 minutes from being the runaway choice for Finals MVP. Wallace played the series of his life.
I thought Ben was ineffective in that series. Until this year, that was one of the worst playoff series of his Pistons career. Of course, he deserved Finals MVP in 2004 over Billups...

...who, by the way, is not worth more than JET Terry.

[Pistons < Spurs]

I think Ben deserves the money more than Chauncey to be honest.


I know many Piston fans feel this way.

But I disagree.

I'm not big on paying a guy based on past preformances. This is a league in which players are payed upon potential. Ben future is not as great as Chauncey's. So why pay him more? Out of loyalty? Because he played way above his play level for many years? Not in my book.

I may be mistaken, and I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Ben had an opportunity to opt out of his contract a couple of years ago, and he chose not to. He could have then gotten a multiple year, big payday. That was his decision.

IMO Chauncey is and will be more of a focal point in our future than Ben can and therefore deserves more financial backing than Ben. Signing Ben now to a 4 or 5 year deal hurts us much more that signing Chauncey next year to a 4 or 5 yr deal.

[himat]

Yes he is.

[Lp26]

If we pay Ben 15-16 million then we can't increase CB's pay much either. I just hope both guys agree to stay for a slight increase and to have shots at championships.

Unfortuanately, i don't see that happening. Billups ego is huge. He'll want to get paid. Much the same of what Ben is doing right now. But Chauncey likes Flip (providing he's still here) so maybe not.

[himat]

:shootme

[Pistons < Spurs]

Maybe this season, but you can't tell me that about 2005. He was 12 minutes from being the runaway choice for Finals MVP. Wallace played the series of his life. He's one year removed from it. For someone who comes through like that in a series of that magnitude, you pay him $15 million if he wants $15 million. Maybe not 5 years (I'd prob still do it, but I can see the problem there), but for 4 I'd do it in a second.


I disagree. I'd have voted Billups for the MVP last year in the Finals.

I don't know if it got much play in SA last year, but after game 2, one of the big stories was that Ben's wife told him that he wasn't being Ben. He wasn't playing with the typical Ben Wallace effort that has made him who he is in the NBA. She had to tell him to step up in the Finals. That's wrong on so many levels. He didn't show up at all for those 2 games in SA.

I look at that event, along with this years refusal to enter a game in Orlando, and his finger pointing in this years playoffs as negatives in his attitiude.

Ben's always been a grumpy kinda guy. He argued w/ Carlisle and LB before any tiffs he had w/ Flip.

Add that to the obvious decline in his performances and I say his future is tainted to some extent.

[jacobdrj]

No surprise a DPOY center is going to pull max-money in a size-deprived league. He's worth every penny, and you guys better match or it's over. A scrub like Bonzi Wells will never fill Wallace's void.
I'll have my Chicago Wallace jersy in reserve ;)
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. Ben is worth every penny, and he hates Flip. Chicago seems like a team built for him. A defensive minded coach, guards who already play SOME D (he can cover for any deficiancies they might have) and a gapeing hole at center.

Bonzi is not a replacement I think. In theory, if rumors have any truth to them, Bonzi may take the MLE to play with 'Sheed again. So signing both is not out of the realm of possibility.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Bulls think big . . . Big Ben
Paxson, Skiles meet with Pistons' Wallace in Detroit

Published July 2, 2006, 12:11 AM CDT


John Paxson came through Saturday on his promise to think big in free agency.

The Bulls' general manager and coach Scott Skiles visited the Pistons' Ben Wallace, the biggest name in free agency, in Detroit on the first day teams could have discussions with available players.

Paxson declined to comment on the meeting with the 6-foot-9-inch, 240-pound defensive ace, who was expected to be the Bulls' top target as they decide how to spend about $15 million they have available under the NBA's salary cap.

The attempt may be in vain unless the Bulls are willing to give Wallace a five-year deal, and there is good reason for the Bulls to avoid such an offer.

Teams could be reluctant to give Wallace a contract longer than four years because of the league's "over-36" rule, which stipulates that salary payable after a player turns 36 is prorated over the previous seasons and counts against the salary cap in those seasons. Wallace will be 32 on Sept. 10 and a four-year deal would expire just before his 36th birthday.

Efforts to reach Wallace's agent, Arn Tellem, were unsuccessful.

Without a five-year deal, Wallace might not have enough incentive to leave Detroit, which he helped win an NBA title in 2004. He is a four-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and with him Detroit has advanced to the NBA Finals twice.

Apparently, the Bulls are the only team seriously in the running for Wallace. Other teams with salary-cap space—Atlanta, Charlotte and Toronto—have not shown significant interest. Philadelphia reportedly contacted Tellem, but the 76ers are over the cap and could obtain Wallace only in a sign-and-trade with the Pistons.

Joe Dumars, the Pistons' general manager, has said his No. 1 priority is to re-sign Wallace. The Pistons are expected to offer Wallace a four-year escalating contract that will pay him between $11 million and $12 million next season to make him the team's highest-paid player in 2006-07.

The Bulls probably would have to beat it handily to get Wallace to leave his comfort zone in Detroit. He would take their available funds and then some, which is why it would be surprising if the Bulls did it.

The signing date on extensions and free-agent contracts is July 12.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-060701bullswallace,1,4063560.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Lp26]

I know many Piston fans feel this way.

But I disagree.

I'm not big on paying a guy based on past preformances. This is a league in which players are payed upon potential. Ben future is not as great as Chauncey's. So why pay him more? Out of loyalty? Because he played way above his play level for many years? Not in my book.

My reasoning is partly based on past performances, but i also don't see Ben's future being that bleak. Look at Alonzo Mourning. He takes care of his body like Ben and he's still playing at a high level (not starter minutes granted). Ben's performance this year was bad, but i think it was b/c of his lack of any offensive role, and unhappiness with our defense/coach more than him "breaking down".

Brown always found a way to get Ben involved and keep him involved. We all know how sensitive Ben is, and i guess he didn't really feel like part of the team this year. Being benched in the 4th quarter of the ECF Game 6 will do that to ya.


I may be mistaken, and I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Ben had an opportunity to opt out of his contract a couple of years ago, and he chose not to. He could have then gotten a multiple year, big payday. That was his decision.

I'm not really sure about this either. I remember Dumars talking to Ben about an extension and Ben saying don't worry about it. But i don't think that's the time your talking about.


IMO Chauncey is and will be more of a focal point in our future than Ben can and therefore deserves more financial backing than Ben. Signing Ben now to a 4 or 5 year deal hurts us much more that signing Chauncey next year to a 4 or 5 yr deal.

I agree with this point. Logically, Chauncey is the less risky deal. I have issues with Chauncey and the way he plays sometimes, but agree he's important. I just disagree about how important.

I don't see Chauncey having the impact that Ben does on the team. And without Ben, i don't see us being that great. You can insert another talented point guard in Chauncey's place and i don't think the drop-off would be that much.

Ben's irreplaceable to me. Chauncey's not. I guess that's why i see Ben being more deserving of the money.

[Burn531]

:spin

[East Coast Babe]

Ben has been slipping for a couple years now. His wife has to get his mind back in the game sometimes. Maybe he needs change of scenery, but maybe he needs to quit too. $75 mill is too much to pay for him IMO. Seems Pistons imploded a little last play-offs.

[timvp]

Maybe this season, but you can't tell me that about 2005. He was 12 minutes from being the runaway choice for Finals MVP. Wallace played the series of his life. He's one year removed from it. For someone who comes through like that in a series of that magnitude, you pay him $15 million if he wants $15 million. Maybe not 5 years (I'd prob still do it, but I can see the problem there), but for 4 I'd do it in a second.

Ben Wallace sucked in the first two games and was the main culprit of putting Detroit in the 0-2 hole. He played well from then on out but Billups would have gotten back-to-back Finals MVP awards.

[FreshPrince22]

Ben Wallace sucked in the first two games and was the main culprit of putting Detroit in the 0-2 hole. He played well from then on out but Billups would have gotten back-to-back Finals MVP awards.

Yes, it was Ben that was outplayed by Nazr in the first 2 games. Essentially killing any chance we had of taking the series (can't fall down 2-0 to a team like the Spurs and expect to win). This year I'm guessing we would have given the Heat a better fight if Ben didn't play. For some reason he is sturbborn about double teaming his man, and he's allergic to getting fouls, so he's the worst guy you could ever put on Shaq. I'd rather do Center by committee like Dallas did. Dale Davis and Kelvin Cato were just sitting there collecting dust.... annoying.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Look at Alonzo Mourning. He takes care of his body like Ben and he's still playing at a high level (not starter minutes granted). Ben's performance this year was bad, but i think it was b/c of his lack of any offensive role, and unhappiness with our defense/coach more than him "breaking down".

Brown always found a way to get Ben involved and keep him involved. We all know how sensitive Ben is, and i guess he didn't really feel like part of the team this year. Being benched in the 4th quarter of the ECF Game 6 will do that to ya.





"We all know how sensitive Ben is"

Isn't this just a nice way of saying that Ben is a big baby? Maybe I'm being a little mean, but I have grown a little tired of his whining.

In regards to Ben being sat in game 6, I have to attribute that to Bens worse than poor Free Throw shooting. He's simpy a liability at the end of games.


As for the main part of your post, I'll admit to being lazy and I'm just going to simply paste a previous post I made on the topic of Ben's desire to be more involved offensivley.




Quote:





Flip doesn't trust Ben at all on offense and that sucks. I hate LB, but at least he was getting Ben to make the opposing team gaurd him.




Twice this year, I heard Ben say that Coach Lowe has taken him out of the offense. I don't know if it's really Flip or Lowe or both....but in either case, I somewhat agree with them.

Ben is a liability on offense. He doesn't possess any semblance of a shooters touch. His post moves are terrible. He usually fakes himself out more than his opponent when he attempts backing someone down. His coordination is not very good either. How many times have you seen him have difficulty catching a pass and going up with it? So often he loses the ball......much like a receiver looking up field before he ever has possesion.

I would love for our starting center to be able to contribute offensively. It could open up all of our other players, and make them more effective. However, Ben is not that player. Sure, throw him a bone every now and then ... but that's more to stop his bitching, than being a good offensive decision.


Quote:



In 05 Ben had 4 20 point games and he had 9.7 ppg. under Flip he only averages 4.7 ppg and shoots around 3 shots per game.




Actually, those numbers are wrong. you got his numbers for last year correctly, but completely misrepresented his numbers for this year.


2003-2004: Under LB

points per game
9.5

shots made / attempted
3.9 / 9.2

2004-2005: Under LB

points per game
9.7

shots made / attempted
4.0 / 8.8

2005-2006: Under Flip

points per game
7.3

shots made / attempted
2.9 / 5.7

Clearly this shows us that LB did indeed utilize Ben more in the offensive scheme implemented at that time.

But there is still more that can be learned from the numbers.

Under LB Ben had 3.3 more shots per game than while playing for Flip. And yet his scoring suffered only 2.3 points per game. In fact Flip greatly improved his efficiency.

Shooting %

2003-2004:
42.1%

2004-2005:
45.3%

2005-2006
51%

Under LB he shot an average of 43.6% and 51% under Flip. That's a nice improvement. Flip cut down on alot of the silly attempts that Ben used to take. And at the same time implemented plays designed to be high percentage opportunities for him.

The Alley-oop play that has been run for him was awesome. Rip curled to the corner, drew the defender and simply puts it up for Ben to get a WIDE OPEN dunk. That play worked from the beginning to the end of the season.


Another factor to me, apart from who is coaching and/or what their philosophies may be, is the overall decline of Bens #'s.

Average under LB:

Rebounds - 12.25
Blocks - 2.7
Minutes - 36.9
FT% - 45.9%


Under Flip:

Rebounds - 11.3
Blocks - 2.2
Minutes - 35.2
FT% - 41.6%

Overall Ben did not have one of his best years statistically. Is that due to age? Effort? or Coaching? Likely all 3 played their own part.

Blocks and rebounds have made Ben who he is. It's a reflection of effort. Yet this year those stats were down.....in conjustion with his shots. Could it be that Ben as a 31yr old is simply getting older and slowing down?

It would be very easy to argue that Bens decrease in shooting was in part because of his overall performance. Tip-ins and putbacks are how he'll get the majority of his points. But if his rebounding numbers are down, it makes sense that his shots per game are likewise down.

Likewise with playing less minutes per game.

And don't forget about Ben's stellar free throw shooting. This was his worse year while in a Pistons uniform since 2000 when he shot 33.6%

On top of that, we saw more Hack-a-Ben this year then in previous years. That made Flip be more cautious in when and how he employed Ben in the offense.

And lastly, I would also point to Bens attitude this year which was on display when he refused to go back in the game in Orlando. Ben has at times shown child like tantrums which naturaly effect his performance and coaches faith and trust in him.


I would love to see Ben get more touches ... if he could put them in the hole. It would be a great improvement for the team. But it's a little difficult to listen to Ben bitch about opportunities when he is in fact a terriblly weak offensive tool.

Without an improvement in his game, the only shots he deserves IMO is hustle opportunities that he creates with his rebounding.

And unless he improves his FT% he should expect more of the same.

Ideally, we resign him ... without breaking the bank. Hopefully Flip can devise some other plays specific for him that get him easy buckets. Hopefully with Sidney Lowe being gone Ben will feel less like they refuse to get him the ball.

But he needs to understand why people do not have confidence in his offensive game ... this includes his coach's and teamates.

[mike detroit]

"We all know how sensitive Ben is"

Isn't this just a nice way of saying that Ben is a big baby? Maybe I'm being a little mean, but I have grown a little tired of his whining.

In regards to Ben being sat in game 6, I have to attribute that to Bens worse than poor Free Throw shooting. He's simpy a liability at the end of games.


in case you missed it, riley does the same thing with shaq

[Pistons < Spurs]

in case you missed it, riley does the same thing with shaq


as he should.

[aaronstampler]

This entire thread is rubbish.

A) Ben Wallace is incredibly overrated. He's basically a less petulant, less crazy Rodman. You say he guards centers? Well so did Rodman. The only thing Big Ben does better than Dennis is block a couple of shots a game. He certainly wasn't the passer Rodman was, and Dennis at least had the good sense to not ask for shots since he had no offensive skills. For 6 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks, fans want him to be a max player? Have you people gone mad? You can't give a gigantic doughnut on offense a max contract.

B) Like Bowen, Big Ben's defense only works if everyone else plays with intensity and keeps their assignments as well. Under Flip this simply isn't going to happen. 'Sheed is a lost cause, Rip can't guard anyone, and Tayshaun has been exposed by the most of the better wing players out there. The days of the Larry Brown/Rick Carlisle Pistons are over. The rules don't even permit defensive juggernauts anymore, and Ben is certainly already past his prime.

C) Shoulda kept Darko and developed him. If you gave him 25 mins a night the last two years (especially against the 50 games you play against crap teams every year) you coulda groomed the next Ben.

D) The cap won't let you have five 10M + starters. Deal with it. You can't have all-stars at every position. That's what role players are for. The problem becomes that success makes role players look better than they are so now Ben and Tayshaun think they're these big stars. Puh-lease.

E) I don't know who's dummer, the Pistons fans demanding that he be paid what he's demanding or the Bulls for offering what they're offering. Chicago would pretty much have to win it all next year to make the deal worth it, because they'll regret his contract mightily by '08.

[mike detroit]

This entire thread is rubbish.

A) Ben Wallace is incredibly overrated. He's basically a less petulant, less crazy Rodman. You say he guards centers? Well so did Rodman. The only thing Big Ben does better than Dennis is block a couple of shots a game. He certainly wasn't the passer Rodman was, and Dennis at least had the good sense to not ask for shots since he had no offensive skills. For 6 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks, fans want him to be a max player? Have you people gone mad? You can't give a gigantic doughnut on offense a max contract.

B) Like Bowen, Big Ben's defense only works if everyone else plays with intensity and keeps their assignments as well. Under Flip this simply isn't going to happen. 'Sheed is a lost cause, Rip can't guard anyone, and Tayshaun has been exposed by the most of the better wing players out there. The days of the Larry Brown/Rick Carlisle Pistons are over. The rules don't even permit defensive juggernauts anymore, and Ben is certainly already past his prime.

C) Shoulda kept Darko and developed him. If you gave him 25 mins a night the last two years (especially against the 50 games you play against crap teams every year) you coulda groomed the next Ben.

D) The cap won't let you have five 10M + starters. Deal with it. You can't have all-stars at every position. That's what role players are for. The problem becomes that success makes role players look better than they are so now Ben and Tayshaun think they're these big stars. Puh-lease.

E) I don't know who's dummer, the Pistons fans demanding that he be paid what he's demanding or the Bulls for offering what they're offering. Chicago would pretty much have to win it all next year to make the deal worth it, because they'll regret his contract mightily by '08.

thanks for the analysis, aaron. why an nba team doesn't have you on their payroll is beyond me.

[RON ARTEST]

I think I am the only one here that believes the Pistons could win a title without Ben Wallace.
theres no way in my opinion. hes the heart and soul of that team, they would be good but not contenders. thier bench is very week on top of that.

[TDMVPDPOY]

with this transaction, this means fuckn shaq gets a higher chance of another finals appearance!! :(:(

[DirkAB]

No surprise a DPOY center is going to pull max-money in a size-deprived league. He's worth every penny, and you guys better match or it's over. A scrub like Bonzi Wells will never fill Wallace's void.


You're insane if you think that Wallace is worth max money. Yeah, maybe he is for the next 2 seasons, but after that what a rip off. He's way too old to get a contract like that, the Bulls are screwing their future, and the Pistons would be too if they matched it.

BTW, that is the second time I've seen you call Wells a scrub, why? If you really think he's a scrub, then better believe that 75% or more of the players in the NBA are scrubs as well.

[mike detroit]

You're insane if you think that Wallace is worth max money. Yeah, maybe he is for the next 2 seasons, but after that what a rip off. He's way too old to get a contract like that, the Bulls are screwing their future, and the Pistons would be too if they matched it.

BTW, that is the second time I've seen you call Wells a scrub, why? If you really think he's a scrub, then better believe that 75% or more of the players in the NBA are scrubs as well.


I'm also pretty sure bonzi wells wouldn't be brought in with the intention of him playing ben's role.

[DirkAB]

I'm also pretty sure bonzi wells wouldn't be brought in with the intention of him playing ben's role.

Exactly, they have nothing to do with each other.

[freedom&justice]

I disagree. I'd have voted Billups for the MVP last year in the Finals.

I don't know if it got much play in SA last year, but after game 2, one of the big stories was that Ben's wife told him that he wasn't being Ben. He wasn't playing with the typical Ben Wallace effort that has made him who he is in the NBA. She had to tell him to step up in the Finals. That's wrong on so many levels. He didn't show up at all for those 2 games in SA.

I look at that event, along with this years refusal to enter a game in Orlando, and his finger pointing in this years playoffs as negatives in his attitiude.

Ben's always been a grumpy kinda guy. He argued w/ Carlisle and LB before any tiffs he had w/ Flip.

Add that to the obvious decline in his performances and I say his future is tainted to some extent.

That, and the fact that Ben doesn't fit into Flip's system. And I agree, Chauncey was definitely deserving of that finals MVP trophy; he was very good in those playoffs.

[himat]

Here is the new bidding. Pistons 48 million for 4 years, Chicago 52 million for 4 years. Please stay Ben.

[Kori Ellis]

Here is the new bidding. Pistons 48 million for 4 years, Chicago 52 million for 4 years. Please stay Ben.

So Chicago didn't offer 60M+?

[Bob Lanier]

Nobody knows. There are several numbers put forth by the Detroit media today ranging from 52 (Jahnke) to 60 (Blakely, Parker), but they're probably guesses. When they're not spinning thinly-disguised propaganda for some faction of the Pistons organization, the Pistons beat writers are as far out of the loop as anyone else.

I'd guess that 52 is probably accurate as a starting offer, but Chicago will undoubtedly go higher. This spinning-shadows business isn't nearly as fun as an outside observer. :lol

[himat]

Yep Detroit Beat Writers suck. Until you here some national use we can't be sure :lol .

[Kori Ellis]

Nobody knows. There are several numbers put forth by the Detroit media today ranging from 52 (Jahnke) to 60 (Blakely, Parker), but they're probably guesses. When they're not spinning thinly-disguised propaganda for some faction of the Pistons organization, the Pistons beat writers are as far out of the loop as anyone else.

Yeah, I've heard/read a lot of different things.

The latest thing was that Chicago offered a 4 year deal starting at 13M ... so if that is with 8% raises, it's about 58M.

[ducks]

I still think he bolts
he can say he got the bulls to the ecf or finals

[Rip-Hamilton32]

bye bye ben..i don't think he wants to come back to detroit..i think hes just saying he does so people won't think hes stabbing them in the back

[Pistons < Spurs]

Bulls vs. Pistons: Ben Wallace has 2 offers

By Krista Jahnke

Detroit Free Press

(MCT)

DETROIT - As other NBA free agents came to quick conclusions and signed new contracts over the weekend, Ben Wallace pondered the two deals on his plate and waited to see if others would top it.

The Pistons have offered a four-year deal worth approximately $48 million to keep their defensive-minded center in Detroit. And the Chicago Bulls, who sent coach Scott Skiles and vice president of basketball John Paxson to Detroit, have started bidding at closer to $52 million for four seasons.

Wallace is an unrestricted free agent and can verbally agree to a deal at any time, but he can't sign a contract until July 12 at the earliest.

Only four teams - Chicago, Atlanta, Charlotte and Toronto - have the salary cap space to target Wallace without arranging a sign-and-trade. Of those, only Chicago has shown real interest to this point.

Any team can try to acquire Wallace through a sign-and-trade, and the Philadelphia 76ers' Web site reported Saturday that the team called his agent, Arn Tellem.

The Pistons, meanwhile, also have placed calls to William Phillips, the Detroit-based agent who represents Sacramento shooting guard Bonzi Wells. Although Wallace is the team's primary concern, Wells also is high on Detroit's summer shopping list.

Wells dominated the Kings series against San Antonio in the playoffs, a showing that might have raised his worth around the league.

He reportedly wants a deal for five years starting near $8 million a season, a figure the Pistons might not be willing to pay, especially since Wells would come off the bench. But he fits the profile of one of their primary needs - a scorer who can slash and attack defenses off the dribble.

The Sacramento Bee reported Sunday that general manager Geoff Petrie started the bidding for Wells at something more than the roughly $5-million trade exception. The Denver Nuggets are also high on Wells.

[Burn531]

I say fuck him. Let's sign some free agents who want to win a title. We need some damn hunger again. I don't wanna be the favs anymore. I want people to predict we get bounced in the 1st round next year.

[Lp26]

Here's another article

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060703/SPORTS0102/607030342/1004/SPORTS

Pistons' initial offer irks Wallace

Center expected it would be for more than $49.6 million, but hasn't closed door on team.

Chris McCosky/The Detroit News

AUBURN HILLS -- The Pistons' negotiations to re-sign free agent Ben Wallace have gotten off to a rough start.

Wallace, in an interview with The Detroit News on Sunday, said he wasn't pleased with the Pistons' initial offer.

"It was disappointing," he said. "It was not at all what I expected."

The Pistons' initial offer was a four-year deal starting at $11.5 million and would pay him $49.6 million over four years. It would make Wallace the highest-paid player on the team next season, eclipsing Rasheed Wallace's salary by $100,000.

Pistons president Joe Dumars, reached by e-mail, said he didn't want to negotiate through the newspaper and declined comment.

Wallace met with Chicago Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles in Detroit on Saturday. He characterized the meeting as "real good" but added that no official offer was extended.

Reports of the Bulls offering a contract starting at $13 million or $14 million were overstated, as were reports of the Bulls offering a five-year deal.

"I ain't looking for more than four years," said Wallace, who will turn 32 on Sept. 10.

Wallace said he expects to hear from several other teams, including Washington, New York and Cleveland, as early as today. Those teams don't have the salary cap space to sign Wallace, but would be looking to facilitate a sign-and-trade in case the Pistons and Wallace reach an impasse.

They are not yet at that point, Wallace said.

"No, the door's not closed (on the Pistons)," he said. "I know it's a business and they have to run their business."

Wallace also understands that it was only an initial offer and those typically are lower than what the Pistons truly intend to pay.

"I just thought we had a pretty good run there (with the Pistons) and I thought the offer would have been a bit better," he said. "I didn't think we had to really negotiate like that at this point. I just thought that initial offer wasn't altogether fair."

It is somewhat interesting that the Bulls would visit with Wallace and not leave him with an offer. Initially, Wallace didn't figure into the Bulls' offseason plans. They drafted Tyrus Thomas, a rugged, 6-foot-9 power forward much in the mold of Wallace with the same offensive limitations. They have been shopping 7-footer Tyson Chandler around the league in hopes of getting a more offensive-minded big man, perhaps someone like Golden State's Troy Murphy or Utah's Carlos Boozer, and had their free-agent sights on a less-expensive center such as Joel Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed.

Paxson started making overtures toward Wallace only after being encouraged by owner Jerry Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf has done a lot of successful business over the years with Wallace's agent, Arn Tellem, who might have pushed for the Bulls to consider Wallace.

It could be a win-win situation for the Bulls. If they sign Wallace, they can lessen the pressure on Thomas' development. And if they don't , they still damage the Pistons by raising Wallace's sticker price.

"I am just sitting here on the unemployment line, waiting," Wallace said. "That's all I can do right now."

Meanwhile, the Phoenix Suns have met with Lindsey Hunter and apparently offered him their bi-annual exception, which would pay him $3 million over the next two seasons. Hunter, who is leaning toward returning for a 14th season, has said he wants to finish his career with the Pistons.

---------

It sounds like he wants to stay if the price is right

[Kori Ellis]

That article at least has some quotes from Ben.

Looks like the Bulls didn't offer him anything concrete.

I don't know why he's so upset by the Pistons offer. Seems more than fair to me.

[jochhejaam]

That article at least has some quotes from Ben.

Looks like the Bulls didn't offer him anything concrete.

I don't know why he's so upset by the Pistons offer. Seems more than fair to me.

I agree. It's obvious his game is slightly declining and I would have hoped he would have been a little more grateful to have been given an offer that would make him the highest paid player in Piston's history.
I wouldn't raise the offer if I were Dumars/Davidson.

Is Ben just telling the press what Tellum wants him to in order to milk the Pistons out of every dollar possible?

Greedy Ben Wallace.

[Pistons < Spurs]

B B B B BYE BYE BEN


I'm a little suprised by Ben's quotes aswell.

4/48 is more than fair IMO.




I wouldn't raise the offer if I were Dumars/Davidson.




:tu :tu I'm totally with you on that.

[himat]

I think Ben is going away unfortunantly :depressed :grim:

[T Park]

ouch........

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Joe Dumars and his owner are a bunch of idiots. They may as well trade away Rip, Chauncey, and Sheed for some young talent.

I can't believe a team as close to the NBA title as Detroit is willing to let its defensive centerpiece walk. Dumbasses.

[Bob Lanier]

It's not about a willingness. Ben left for essentially the same amount of money, which leads me to believe he never had any intention of coming back.

Or, as I've said since the playoffs - it was Flip or Ben. Joe Dumars and Bill Davidson chose Flip.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's not about a willingness. Ben left for essentially the same amount of money, which leads me to believe he never had any intention of coming back.

Or, as I've said since the playoffs - it was Flip or Ben. Joe Dumars and Bill Davidson chose Flip.

Which is completely stupid. Did Dumars all of a sudden feel the need to give Isiah a run for his boneheaded GM title?

[adidas11]

Confirmed on SportsCenter.

Bulls will sign Big Ben for 60 mil/4 years

[Vizzini]

Which is completely stupid. Did Dumars all of a sudden feel the need to give Isiah a run for his boneheaded GM title?

I love Ben Wallace, and he is the heart and soul of the team, but paying him 15 million dollars when he will be 36 years old might have gotten Joe D. the bone headed GM title. I know it is a little different, but Joe D. lost Grant Hill as well, and he was able to turn that into something good too. I know there is no sign and trade, but maybe now we can go get a servicable center and address some other needs as well. Good luck Ben Wallace, I wish you nothing but the best. I hope you never wish were you were still in Detroit when things go bad, but just ask Grant Hill, things may not be greener on the other side.